嘉宾系列 | Matt Walker 博士：用睡眠提升学习、创造力与记忆

GUEST SERIES | Dr. Matt Walker: Using Sleep to Improve Learning, Creativity & Memory

第2024-04-24期2024-04-24简体中文会员内容

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精读 · 按主题梳理核心观点、论证与案例。

§01文稿——Sleep, learning, and memory: source-grounded discussion

本段中文整理：Andrew Huberman develops this part of the discussion through the following account. The point is grounded in the episode's own 证据 and qualifications: Andrew Huberman： Welcome to the Huberman Lab Guest Series, where I and an expert guest 讨论 science and science-based tools for everyday life. 我 Andrew Huberman, and 我 a professor of 神经生物学 and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. Today's episode marks the fourth in our six-episode series all about 睡眠, with expert guest Dr. Matthew Walker. 期间 today's episode, we 讨论睡眠 and 学习, as well as the impact of 睡眠 and the 具体 stages of 睡眠 on 创造力 and 记忆. We 谈论 about when and how long to 睡眠 relative to 不同 bouts of 学习, as well as the role of naps in consolidating 信息 that you are trying to learn. We 讨论 the science and 方案 of 睡眠 as it relates to both 认知学习 and 运动学习, and the 机制 by which 睡眠 encodes 记忆. As with the previous episodes in this series, today's episode includes 信息 about the biology of 睡眠, as well as practical tools, that is 方案, in which you can use 睡眠 to improve your 学习, 记忆, and 创造力. 之前 we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and 研究 roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer 信息 about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is Helix 睡眠. Helix 睡眠 makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique 睡眠 needs. 它是 abundantly clear that 睡眠 is the foundation of 心理健康, 身体健康, and 表现. When we're getting 足够质量睡眠, everything in life goes so much better, and when we are not getting 足够质量睡眠, everything in life is that much more challenging. Now, one of the key things to getting a great 夜间's 睡眠 is to have the appropriate mattress. Everyone, however, has slightly 不同 needs in terms of what would be the 最佳 mattress for them. Helix understands that 人们 have unique 睡眠 needs, and they've designed a brief two-minute quiz that asks you questions like, "Do you 睡眠 on your back, your side, or your stomach? Do you tend to run hot or cold 期间 the 夜间?" Or maybe you don't know the answers to those questions. If you go to the Helix site and take that brief quiz, they'll match you to a mattress that's 最佳 for you. For me, it turned out to be the Dusk, D-U-S-K mattress. 它是 not too hard, not too soft, and I 睡眠 so much better on my Helix mattress than on any other type of mattress I've used 之前. So if you're interested in upgrading your mattress, go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take their brief two-minute 睡眠 quiz, and they'll match you to a customized mattress for you, and you'll get up to $350 off any mattress order and two free pillows. Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350 off and two free pillows. Today's episode is also brought to us by Whoop. Whoop is a fitness wearable device that tracks your daily activity and 睡眠, but also goes beyond that by providing real-time feedback on how to adjust your training and 睡眠 schedule to perform better. I've been working with Whoop on their 科学的 advisory council to try and help advance Whoop's mission of unlocking human 表现. As a Whoop user, I've experienced the 健康益处 of their technology firsthand for 睡眠 tracking, for monitoring other features of my physiology, and for giving me a lot of feedback about metrics within my 大脑 and body that tell me how hard I should train or not train, and basically point to the things that 我 doing correctly and incorrectly in my daily life that I can adjust using 方案, some of which are actually within the Whoop app. Given that many of us have goals such as improving our 睡眠, building better habits, or just focusing more on our overall 健康, Whoop is one of the tools that can really help you get personalized data, recommendations, and coaching toward your overall 健康. In addition to being one of the most accurate 睡眠 trackers in the world, Whoop allows you to recover more quickly and fully from 身体的 exercise and other kinds of stress, and thereby to train more effectively and 睡眠 better. If you're interested in trying Whoop, you can go to join.whoop.com/huberman today to get your first month free. Again, that's join.whoop.com/huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by Waking Up. The Waking Up app is a meditation app that offers hundreds of guided meditations, mindfulness trainings, yoga nidra sessions, and more. I started meditating over 30 years ago. At that time, there wasn't very much science on meditation. But by now, we know that there's a lot of strong science supporting the fact that a daily meditation practice can improve mood, 专注, and 警觉性, and can reduce stress and improve 睡眠 and overall 健康. One thing that I and many others have noticed is that while meditation is excellent for buffering stress, 它是 oftentimes 期间 periods of stress that we let our meditation practice go. The Waking Up app overcomes this by offering meditations of 不同 durations, so they have some longer ones of 30 to 60 分钟, but also some much briefer ones, 10, five, and even one-minute meditations that are known to be 有效. So, no matter how busy or stressed you get, you always make time for your meditation practice. The fact that they have lots of 不同 types of meditations and yoga nidra sessions and 非睡眠深度休息方案 also makes sure that your meditations are kept fresh and interesting. You never get bored of them. I personally use the Waking Up app to do a five to ten minute meditation or a 非睡眠深度休息方案, which is similar to yoga nidra, each and every day. And if I miss a day, I try and double up the amount of time that I do NSDR, yoga nidra, or meditation the following day. Yoga nidra and 非睡眠深度休息方案 can be done essentially any time of day in order to restore 心理的 and 身体的 vigor. I'll sometimes do one first thing in the 早晨 if I wake up and I feel I didn't get quite 足够睡眠 the previous 夜间. You can also do yoga nidra or NSDR in the middle of the 夜间 if you wake up and you're having trouble falling back asleep. Sometimes they will allow you to fall back asleep, and if they don't, you'll still feel more refreshed than you would have had you been tossing and turning and worrying about not getting 睡眠. So NSDR and yoga nidra are terrific for both restoring 心理的 and 身体的 vigor and potentially for restoring 睡眠 that you otherwise would have missed. If you'd like to try the Waking Up app, you can go to wakingup.com/huberman to get a free 30-day trial. Again, that's wakingup.com/huberman. And now for my conversation with Dr. Matthew Walker. Dr. Walker.

本段中文整理：Andrew Huberman develops this part of the discussion through the following account. The point is grounded in the episode's own 证据 and qualifications: Andrew Huberman： Welcome back. We have covered a lot of material. First episode of this series, you gave us an overview of 睡眠 and some actionable items about 睡眠 Then in the second episode, you gave us far more actionable items of how to think about one's 睡眠 in a way that leads to very concrete decisions about controlling light, temperature, when to 睡眠, and then some really in-depth advanced tools-

本段中文整理：Andrew Huberman develops this part of the discussion through the following account. The point is grounded in the episode's own 证据 and qualifications: Andrew Huberman： ... or 方案, as we call them. And then in the third episode, we talked about 咖啡因 and 小睡, and some other things that 人们 can do to really supercharge their 警觉性 through 睡眠增强 in the 白天. And today, we're going to 谈论 about 睡眠, 学习 and 记忆, and a topic that I know everybody is very interested in, 创造力.

本段中文整理：Andrew Huberman develops this part of the discussion through the following account. The point is grounded in the episode's own 证据 and qualifications: Andrew Huberman： Yeah, absolutely. So I think nowadays most 人们理解 that there's some relationship between 睡眠 and 学习. But I think it would still be a good idea for us to zoom out a bit and establish what that relationship is. I think most 人们 are familiar with being exposed to some new material, cognitive material, 身体的技能 material, and not being able to learn it right away, but then having a few days in between, and then all of a sudden, voilà.

本段中文整理：Andrew Huberman develops this part of the discussion through the following account. The point is grounded in the episode's own 证据 and qualifications: Andrew Huberman： The 技能 has been embedded it seems. But not obvious in that scenario is that 睡眠 is perhaps the pivotal event that allowed the 学习过程 to take place. So how do you think about 睡眠 as it relates to 学习 and 记忆?

本段中文整理：Dr. Matthew Walker develops this part of the discussion through the following account. The point is grounded in the episode's own 证据 and qualifications: Matthew Walker 博士： I think I've conceptualized it in three 不同 stages or three 不同 buckets of a 益处. The first is that we need 睡眠之前学习 to prepare your 大脑 to initially imprint and lay those 记忆痕迹 down. But then you need to 睡眠之后学习 to take those sort of freshly minted 记忆 and then save them and cement them into the 大脑 so that you don't lose them. The third domain is that 睡眠 will then take those new 记忆 that you've been 学习, and it will start to collide them with all of this back catalog of 信息 that you've already got stored in your 大脑, and it updates the iOS of your informational systems so that then you come back the next day, and you have a better abled ability to 理解 how the world works. In other words, the difference between 知识, which is 学习 the facts, and 智慧, which is knowing what it all means when you put it together. That's the third category. And why is that beneficial? 因为 it provides you with 创造性洞见. And so we will perhaps just double-click on each of those three, and I can expand them 因为 the data behind them is utterly fascinating. As you said, I think many 人们 subjectively have a sense that 睡眠 helps me with my 记忆 in some way. But in what way? And for 人们, I think one of the things that you do here is not just 方案, but you help explain the conceptual 理解 or the conceptual 机制 underlying the reasons for all of these 方案, and I would love to dive into detail.

本段中文整理：Andrew Huberman develops this part of the discussion through the following account. The point is grounded in the episode's own 证据 and qualifications: Andrew Huberman： ... 最佳 for 学习. What is that about neurochemically at the 层面 of circuits, and what is the 证据 that providing some, I don't know, additional 睡眠 or just adequate 睡眠 prior to the exposure to the new material-

§02文稿——Sleep, learning, and memory: source-grounded discussion

本段中文整理：Dr. Matthew Walker develops this part of the discussion through the following account. The point is grounded in the episode's own 证据 and qualifications: Matthew Walker 博士： Yeah, I love that word, that 最佳 milieu, and it beautifully describes what we've found. We started off asking a very simple 问题 at my 睡眠 center, is pulling the all-nighter a wise idea? So we took a group of perfectly 健康的, smart individuals, and we assigned them to one of two experimental groups, a 睡眠 group and a 睡眠剥夺 group. And both of those groups went through those two 不同方案, and then the next day 之后睡眠 or 之后 no 睡眠, we put them inside of a 大脑 scanner, and we had them try and learn a whole list of new facts as we were taking snapshots of 大脑 activity. And then we tested them to see how 有效 that 学习 had been. When we looked at the group that had had a full 夜间 of 睡眠, they had incredibly efficient 学习 capacity. So in other words, they had learned and imprinted that 信息 initially very well. When we looked at the 睡眠剥夺 group, not so much. In fact, there was a 40% deficit in the ability of the 大脑 to make new 记忆 without 睡眠. And we've used lots of 不同 types. We've replicated that now. We've had visual 信息. We've had textbook-like 信息. And the range is somewhere between 20% to 40%. I find that, by the way, striking, and we can come back to this based on what we are seeing in our educational systems right now. There is this paucity of 睡眠因为 of this model of early school start times, and I'll explain exactly what's happened there and what we've been doing to try to change that. But coming back to those two groups, the 睡眠 group and the 睡眠剥夺 group, what was going on, as you said, inside of the 大脑 that would help us 理解 why they couldn't learn or at least couldn't learn effectively? And the structure that we focused on is one you've spoken about 之前 called the hippocampus And you have one on the left side and the right side of your 大脑. It looks like a long cigar that runs down the left and right side of your 大脑. And 人们 listening can think of the hippocampus almost like the informational inbox of your 大脑. 它是 very good at receiving new 记忆 files and then holding onto them. And when we looked at that structure and its activity 期间学习 in the 睡眠 group, they had wonderful, powerful activation of the hippocampus, as if it was gobbling up all of that new 信息 into the inbox. When we looked at the 睡眠剥夺 group, however, we couldn't find any significant signal whatsoever. So it was almost as though 睡眠剥夺 had shut down the 记忆 inbox, and any new incoming files, they were just being bounced. You couldn't effectively commit new experiences to 记忆. And then subsequent 研究 that were not done by us, but looking at animal models, they were looking at how able the synapses are in that 记忆 structure, the hippocampus, how capable those synapses are for building new connections. And the synapses are just those connections between neurons, and we think that part of the way that we make 记忆 is by strengthening the connection in the 记忆 circuit itself. And what they found was that when they restricted the 睡眠 of these rats or the mice, that part of the 大脑 became very stubborn. It just wouldn't form those new synaptic connections. 它是 something that we call synaptic plasticity. So we started to 理解 this was the bad that happened when you take 睡眠 away. But let's come back to that control group that I said got a full 夜间 of 睡眠. Exactly what is it about 睡眠 when you do get it that seems to support and promote your 学习 ability? So we decided to do another 不同研究. Instead of manipulating 睡眠 by dialing it down, we instead tried to dial it up by way of a 白天小睡. And again, we took two groups, and we had them initially learn, again, a huge amount of factual 信息. They learned it over and over and over again. And then we brought them back six 小时 later at 6:00 PM, and now we had them learn a whole new set of 信息. And 之后 each one of those fresh, novel 学习 sessions, we tested them to see how 有效 that 学习 had been again. One of those groups spent that six 小时 of time awake, doing just relaxing activities. The other group was able to obtain a 90-minute 小睡, and we used that 90-minute 小睡 to allow them to go through a full sort of average cycle to get some non-REM and to get some REM. And what was interesting is that when we tested the group that remained awake later that following day, their 学习 capacity had declined. But in the 小睡 group, it seemed to restore the 大脑's capacity to learn, and you didn't get that decline in 记忆. In fact, if anything, you got a little boost. And the difference between those two is about 20%, which is quite a nice 益处.

本段中文整理：Dr. Matthew Walker develops this part of the discussion through the following account. The point is grounded in the episode's own 证据 and qualifications: Matthew Walker 博士： Not trivial at all. And then we said, okay, well, if 睡眠 is doing something, what is it about that 睡眠? So we unpacked the physiology of 睡眠 and the 不同 stages of 睡眠 that we discussed in the first episode. And what we found was that it was the non-快速眼动睡眠, or the non-REM 睡眠, and particularly those 睡眠 spindles, those short bursts of electrical activity that we have discussed 之前, that seemed to predict how restored and refreshed your 学习 ability was. And the best way that I've been thinking about this in terms of 睡眠 restoring or refreshing your 编码 ability, and 它是 a crass analogy, and I don't mean to make a direct 大脑-to-computer analogy, but think of that hippocampus almost like a USB stick.

本段中文整理：Andrew Huberman develops this part of the discussion through the following account. The point is grounded in the episode's own 证据 and qualifications: Andrew Huberman： Mm-hmm.

本段中文整理：Dr. Matthew Walker develops this part of the discussion through the following account. The point is grounded in the episode's own 证据 and qualifications: Matthew Walker 博士： That's very good 期间 the day at going around and grabbing new files, but it has a limited storage capacity. And what 睡眠 was doing seemed to be shifting those 记忆 from the USB stick of your hippocampus over up to the cortex, which you can think of almost like your hard drive, a much bigger storage capacity. And by way of doing that, when you woke up 之后 the 小睡 or 之后 a full 夜间 of 睡眠, you had this cleared out USB stick. So what could you do? You could go around and start acquiring all these new files again. So that started to teach us a little bit about why 睡眠之前学习 is critical, but also mechanistically how 睡眠 is doing this remarkable work of 记忆 restoration. We then wanted to say, well, can we translate this out into the real world? And I think there are two regions that we've moved this work out into. One is education, one is medicine and Alzheimer's disease. But the education piece was very interesting. In the United States, I think the last time I checked, the average school start time is somewhere around 7:30, 7:45.

本段中文整理：Andrew Huberman develops this part of the discussion through the following account. The point is grounded in the episode's own 证据 and qualifications: Andrew Huberman： Sounds about right.

本段中文整理：Dr. Matthew Walker develops this part of the discussion through the following account. The point is grounded in the episode's own 证据 and qualifications: Matthew Walker 博士： That means that some kids are having to wake up at 5:00 AM, maybe even earlier. This is lunacy when you think about it. And there's a great 研究 in Edna, I hope 我 pronouncing that correct, Edna, which is a small suburb, or it sits in a small suburb outside of Minneapolis in Minnesota. And they shifted their school start times from 7:25 to 8:30 in the 早晨. And then they wanted to ask what is the consequence of that on the academic 表现 of their students. And the metric that they used in these teenagers that they were focusing on was something called the SAT score, which is a score I had to learn when I first came to the United States. Is a critical assessment test that will largely determine which university you go to. And they did an analysis, which was clever. They focused on the top 10% performing students, which you could argue those are the ones that are closest to the ceiling 表现 and the hardest to expect any 益处 from 睡眠. So in the year 之前 they made the time change, the average score of those top 10% performing students was 1,288, which turns out to be a pretty good SAT score. The following year 之后 they made the time change, the average score for that top 10% was 1,500. That difference is non-trivial, and it will change exactly where those individuals will go to university in terms of the tier of the university and likely change the trajectory of their lives-

本段中文整理：Andrew Huberman develops this part of the discussion through the following account. The point is grounded in the episode's own 证据 and qualifications: Andrew Huberman： Amazing

本段中文整理：Dr. Matthew Walker develops this part of the discussion through the following account. The point is grounded in the episode's own 证据 and qualifications: Matthew Walker 博士： ... as a consequence. Now, some 人们 have argued that data, in terms of its source and its reliability may not have necessarily been accurate, but now we've got very consistent data. When you start school times later, academic grades improve, psychological and psychiatric problems decrease, truancy rates decrease. But something else happened in that story of later school start times that we didn't expect, which was that the life expectancy of students increased. And you think, "Well, hang on a second. How do you determine that?" The number one cause of death in teenagers 16 to 18 is actually not suicide. Turns out to be second. 它是 road traffic accidents. And here, 睡眠 matters enormously. There was another great 例子 from Teton County in Wyoming, and they shifted their school start times from I think it was 7:35 in the 早晨 to 8:55. And the only thing more remarkable than the extra one 小时 of 睡眠 those kids reported getting was the drop in car accidents. That following year, there was a 70% reduction in car crashes in that age range of 16 to 18.

本段中文整理：Dr. Matthew Walker develops this part of the discussion through the following account. The point is grounded in the episode's own 证据 and qualifications: Matthew Walker 博士： Well, they will probably be ejected out of school, that's another interesting part, by the way, maybe around 4:30. And 人们 have said, "Well, look, all of this idea of later school start times, it means that 它是 going to cost us more 因为 you've got to change the school bus 系统," and they've argued pushback against that. And I would say probably two things. First, I know 它是 difficult, and 我 not saying 它是 an easy problem to do. 它是 a complex problem. And 我 sympathetic to that, but I think we've put 人们 on the Moon, and so I suspect that we can also solve the problem of early school start times. The other component of that is what are we doing as educators? If our goal as educators is truly to educate and not risk lives in the 过程, then we are failing our children in a most spectacular manner with this incessant model of early school start times. And if you look at the data, 它是 very clear. When 睡眠 is abundant, minds flourish, and when 它是 not, they don't. And so that's the reason why myself and a whole group of 睡眠 scientists, we started to try to create a movement for later school start times, and we got this bill passed, firstly in California, and we got it on the governor's desk at the time. It was Governor Brown. And unfortunately, he didn't sign it into law. Then when the organization changed and Governor Newsom came in as governor of California, we got the bill back on his desk, and he did sign it. And then, the next state to go was New York. They started to put in legislation for recommendations for later school start times. I think Florida is about to fall as well in that regard. So there's gradual movement happening, but 它是 hard-fought, and 它是 problematic. I still think that 它是 impossible to deny that data. It was an interesting thing. I 记住 when I was a professor back at Harvard, we were doing this work on 睡眠 and 学习. And it was sort of published in these sort of kindly, I don't know how we did it, but in nice journals. And they said, "Okay, based on the media traction, would you write an editorial for the Harvard newspaper?" Which was called "The Harvard Crimson." And I said, "I'd love to." So at first I thought, 我 just going to write a straight piece about 睡眠 and 记忆 and why 它是重要. Then I realized, no, there's a better opportunity 因为 teaching there, and you know this as well as I do, there is this bizarre 系统 where we teach for an entire semester, and then we end load the semester full of exams in this stressful two-week period. And what do you think is going to happen? They're not going to 睡眠, especially at a time when they're trying to cram 信息. So-

本段中文整理：Andrew Huberman develops this part of the discussion through the following account. The point is grounded in the episode's own 证据 and qualifications: Andrew Huberman： Right, especially in college where you don't actually have the material four weeks 之前, so there's not really the option to learn it in advance.

本段中文整理：Andrew Huberman develops this part of the discussion through the following account. The point is grounded in the episode's own 证据 and qualifications: Andrew Huberman： Everything about university to me was about getting a bunch of 信息 and needing to incorporate it very quickly and then move to the next item.

本段中文整理：Dr. Matthew Walker develops this part of the discussion through the following account. The point is grounded in the episode's own 证据 and qualifications: Matthew Walker 博士： Right. Next item. And then all of a sudden, there's this cataclysmic moment at the end of the semester, and you are supposed to regurgitate this by cramming everything into your 大脑-

本段中文整理：Andrew Huberman develops this part of the discussion through the following account. The point is grounded in the episode's own 证据 and qualifications: Andrew Huberman： Right

本段中文整理：Dr. Matthew Walker develops this part of the discussion through the following account. The point is grounded in the episode's own 证据 and qualifications: Matthew Walker 博士： ... in this sleepless two-week period. So rather than saying, look, the students need to change their behavior, they need to 理解 this is a problem, 它是 not their fault I said, "它是 us as educators and administrators, we have created a 系统 that forces them to undergo deliberate 睡眠剥夺, and we are educating them amnesic quite literally."

本段中文整理：Dr. Matthew Walker develops this part of the discussion through the following account. The point is grounded in the episode's own 证据 and qualifications: Matthew Walker 博士： So I put this editorial out. It received a rather Baltic, if not Arctic, response, and that was the last editorial I was ever invited to write for the newspaper. But you've got to say your piece.

本段中文整理：Andrew Huberman develops this part of the discussion through the following account. The point is grounded in the episode's own 证据 and qualifications: Andrew Huberman： Well, so but 我 curious why there's resistance to shifting to later school times and to improving the conditions for 学习 if the goal is to learn. Tradition dies hard.