Using Red Light to 改善 代谢 & the Harmful Effects of LEDs | Dr. Glen Jeffery

安德鲁·休伯曼： Let's talk 关于 indoor lighting, 因为 I am 非常 concerned 关于 the amount of short-wavelength light 那 人们 are exposed to nowadays, 尤其是 kids.

Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm. 这 is an issue on the same 水平 as asbestos. 这 is a public health issue, 和 it's big. 和 I think it's 一 of the reasons why I'm 确实 happy to come here 和 talk, 因为 it's time to talk. When 我们 use LEDs, the light found in LEDs, when 我们 use them, certainly, when 我们 use them on the retina looking at mice, 我们 可以 watch the mitochondria gently go downhill. They're far 更少 responsive. Their membrane potentials are coming down. The mitochondria are not breathing 非常 well. 可以 watch 那 in real-time.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Welcome to the Huberman Lab 播客, where 我们 discuss science 和 science-based tools 对于 everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, 和 I'm a professor of 神经生物学 和 ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Glen Jeffery, a professor of neuroscience at University College London. In today's episode, 我们 discuss how 你 可以 use light, in particular red, near-infrared, 和 infrared light, to 改善 你的 health, 和 no, not just by getting sunlight, 尽管 我们 do talk 关于 sunlight. Dr. Jeffery's lab has discovered 那 certain wavelengths 或 colors of light 可以 be used to 改善 你的 皮肤, 你的 eyesight, even 你的 血液 sugar regulation 和 代谢. Dr. Jeffery explains how light is absorbed by the 水 in 你的 mitochondria, the 能量-producing organelles within 你的 cells, to allow them to function better by producing 更多 ATP. He also explains how long-wavelength light, things like red light, 可以 be protective against mitochondrial damage caused by excessive exposure to things like LED bulbs 和 screens, which of course 我们 are all exposed to pretty much all 天 long nowadays, 和 simple, inexpensive, 和 even zero-cost ways 那 你 可以 get long-wavelength light exposure, 和 again, not just by getting 更多 sunlight. He explains 那 long-wavelength light 可以 actually pass 进入 和 通过 你的 entire 身体, 和 那 it scatters when inside 你. Now, 那 可能 sound scary, 但 it's actually a great thing 对于 你的 health, 因为 那's how long-wavelength light 可以 改善 the health of all 你的 organs, by entering 你的 身体 和 supporting 你的 mitochondria. Believe it 或 not, certain wavelengths of light 可以 actually pass 通过 你的 skull 进入 你的 大脑 和 help promote 大脑 health. 期间 today's episode, 我们 also discuss new findings 那 correlate the amount of sunlight 你're exposed to 与 longevity. 那些 are 非常 surprising findings, 但 they're 重要. Also, why everyone needs some UV light exposure. 和 我们 discuss whether it's 重要 to close 你的 eyes when using red light devices 或 in red light saunas, 和 how best to apply red light 和 things like infrared light in order to derive maximum health benefits. Today, 你're going to learn 从 一 of the greats in neuroscience as to how to use light to 改善 the health 和 longevity of any 和 every 组织 in 你的 身体, 和 the mechanisms 对于 how 那 works. 之前 我们 begin, I'd like to emphasize 那 这 podcast is separate 从 my teaching 和 研究 roles at Stanford. It is, 然而, part of my desire 和 effort to bring zero cost to consumer information 关于 science 和 science-related tools to the general public. In keeping 与 那 theme, today's episode does include sponsors. 和 now 对于 my discussion 与 Dr. Glen Jeffery. Dr. Glen Jeffery, welcome.

Glen Jeffery: Thank 你. Thank 你 非常 much.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 我们 go way back. Later, I'll tell a little bit of the story 和 why it is truly unforeseen 那 我们'd be sitting here talking 关于 what 我们're talking 关于. 但 it's great to see 你 again. 和 I'm super excited 关于 the work 你've been doing over the last few years, 因为 it's completely transformed the way 那 I think 关于 light 和 health, light 和 mitochondria. 和 frankly, every environment I go 进入 now, indoor 或 outdoor, I think 关于 how 那 lighting environment is impacting my cellular health, maybe even my longevity. So, if 你 会 be willing, could 你 explain 对于 人们 a little bit 关于 light as, let's say, the visible spectrum, the stuff 那 我们 可以 see, 和 the stuff 那's kind of outside what 我们 可以 see, as a framework 对于 how 那 stuff impacts 我们的 cells? 因为 I think 没有 那 understanding, it's going to be a little bit mysterious how it is 那 lights of particular colors, wavelengths, as 我们 call them, could impact 我们的 mitochondria the way they do. 但 与 just a little bit of understanding 关于 light, I think 人们 会 get a lot 更多 out of 我们的 conversation.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah, sure. 我们 think 关于 light purely in terms of the light 我们 see, 和 那's perfectly natural. 和 the light 我们 see runs 从 deep blue, violet, out to pretty deep red, deep bicycle light. 和 那's what 我们 see. 那's what 我们're aware of. The trouble is 那 actually there's a lot 更多 of it than 那. The sun kicks out a vast amount of light 那 我们 don't see. So, let's say the visual range is, just grab the numbers, which is, say, 400 to 700. 那's 我们的 spectrum.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Nanometers.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah, nanometers.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 there 我们're talking 关于 the wavelength, how bumpy 那些 wavelengths of light are.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. Yeah. Sunlight extends out almost to 3,000 nanometers. Just think 关于 it. Which is a big, big range, 和 then 那's in the infrared. 和 on the other end, the bits 那 我们 don't see, the deep, deep blues 和 the violets, 那 goes down deeply to 关于 300 nanometers. Now, 这 is a continuum. 我们 parcel it up 因为 there's bits 我们 see 和 there's bits 我们 don't see. 但 你 可以 think 关于 it as a continuous wavelength, 和 the wavelength gets longer 和 longer 和 longer as 我们 go out 进入 the deep red. So, short-wavelength lights, the ones just below blue, they're 非常, 非常 high frequency. They carry quite a kick, 和 那's why when 你're sitting in the sun 和 你 get sunburned, it's mainly 因为 of 那些 ultraviolet short-wavelengths 那 are present, 和 then 你 go beyond 我们的 visual range, beyond 700, 和 the wavelengths become 非常, 非常 long, 和 they carry a certain kind of 能量, 但 they don't carry the kick. So, the 重要 point to think of is when 你 go out in sunlight, 你 see all 这些 colors, blues, greens, reds, 但 there's so much out there 那 你 don't see. 和 我们 thought probably 你 didn't need to be aware of. 但 nearly all animals basically see 这 visual range 那 我们 have.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet, right?

Glen Jeffery: Blue. Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 我们 可以 separate 那些 out by shining light 通过 a prism.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Think the cover of the Pink Floyd "Dark Side of the Moon" album.

Glen Jeffery: Pink Floyd album. Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 那's separating out the 不同的 wavelengths. 你 say 那 the short wavelengths have a kick. I want to talk a little bit 关于 what 那 kick is. 我们 distinguish between ionizing 和 non-ionizing radiation. 和 I think 对于 a lot of 人们, they hear the word radiation, 和 they think radioactive, 和 they think 那 all radiation is bad 或 dangerous. 但 in fact, light 能量 is radiating, right?

Glen Jeffery: Mm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： So, it's radiation 能量, 但 at the short wavelengths, below UV, they are ionizing radiation, 和 maybe 我们 could just explain what 那 means, how 那 actually changes 我们的 cells. 因为 if 我们 get too much of 那, it indeed 可以 alter 我们的 DNA.

Glen Jeffery: I think the 重要 point to think 关于 is not only what the wavelengths are, 但 also how a 身体 responds to 那些 wavelengths. So, let's bounce back a little bit to, 对于 instance, the sunburn. 我们're getting sunburnt 因为 the 身体 is blocking 那些 wavelengths. 那些 wavelengths cannot penetrate 非常 far. So, when 你're out on a hot sunny 天, 和 part of 你的 身体 goes pink, it's going pink 因为 it's blocking 那些 wavelengths. So, the 能量 is not being distributed throughout the 身体. The 能量 is hitting the 皮肤, 和 你're getting an 炎症性的 response to it. Now interestingly, 我们 block 那些 从 我们的 eye 因为 我们的 lens 和 我们的 cornea also blocks 那些 short wavelengths. So, 那's part of the reason why 我们 don't see them, 但 it's also the reason why, 对于 instance, 人们 get snow blindness 因为 it's just sunburn on the cornea 和 the lens. It's recoverable 从, 但 it's 非常 painful.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 与 age, some 人们 who get a lot of sun exposure 会 get cataract.

Glen Jeffery: Yes. Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Which is kind of the lens becomes 更多 opaque.

Glen Jeffery: It does. 和 I've heard 那 described as being the lens being cooked.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 但 in actual fact, I used to run the eye bank at Moorfields Eye Hospital, Eyes 对于 研究, 和 你 可以 actually open a patient's eyes up when they're dead, 和 你 可以 look at the color of the lens, 和 你 可以 get a rough idea of how old 那 person was.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: So, 一 of the surgical procedures 那 medics love is to replace a cataract. Take an older person, they've got 这 thick brownish lens, 和 pop it out 和 put a clear lens in, 和 the instant response in 90% of them is, "Wow!"

安德鲁·休伯曼： In the patients?

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 这些 are live patients? Yeah.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah, live patients. It's done under a local anesthetic in older patients, 和 they just go, "Wow! Isn't 那 amazing?" Suddenly, they're getting a lot 更多 light in their eye.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 因为 the lens was brown, it blocked a lot of the bluer wavelengths, 和 so they go, "Everything is 非常 bright. Everything's 非常 sparkly." 和 it was quite a dramatic response. 但 the interesting thing is, 二 天 later they said, "Yeah, it's gone."

安德鲁·休伯曼： Hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 和 the 大脑 kind of readapts 那 visual input 从 the retina. 但 going back over the literature of replacing cataracts, it's quite interesting. It tells 你 actually quite a lot. Now, when 我们 put 那些 plastic lenses in, 我们 have UV blockers in them, so 你 don't actually get a lot of short wavelengths coming 通过. 但 it was certainly the response in the earlier 天 when 我们 didn't have UV blockers of 人们 saying, "God, 那's sparkly."

安德鲁·休伯曼： I see.

Glen Jeffery: "那's 确实 sparkly."

安德鲁·休伯曼： Yeah, the sparkliness being 那些 short wavelengths.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Like, think of off the top of 水 on a 确实 sunny 天. So, I think the takeaway 对于 me is 那 我们 应该 all be protecting 我们的 皮肤 against too much UV 和 other short wavelengths, 和 我们 应该 probably protect 我们的 eyes against too much ultraviolet exposure over time. 我们 know 那 你 don't want the mutations of the 皮肤, 或 the clouding of the lens.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I mean, 你 pointed out 你 可以 replace the lens, 但 I think at the same time 我们 need UV, right? I mean, vitamin D production requires UV exposure.

Glen Jeffery: Mm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Do 我们 know how 那 works, what 那 通路 is?

Glen Jeffery: Yeah, 我们've got a fairly good idea, 但 I want to just take 你 back a step, if I may. There's some 确实 fantastic work coming out at the moment where a few dermatologists are reevaluating the issue of sunlight on the human 身体, 和 the leader of 那 is a character called Richard Weller 从 Edinburgh, 和 he's going back over all the 数据. 和 Richard's coming out 和 saying, "All-cause mortality is lower in 人们 那 get a lot of sunlight." 和 his argument is 那 the only thing 你've got to avoid is sunburn.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: The mutations of DNA are occurring 确实 when 你've got 非常, 非常 high 水平, not when 你've got relatively low 水平. 和 Richard's work has been terribly interesting 因为 he's dug out all the little corners, all the little things 那 你 think 关于 三 天 later. He's dug out all 那些 little corners, 和 things like Aborigines in Australia don't get 皮肤 cancer. White 人们 there probably are in the wrong place, given their evolutionary stage.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Yeah, high 水平 of 皮肤 cancer in Australia

Glen Jeffery: In the Caucasian population.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Yeah. 但 maybe they're getting too much sun exposure too fast. The UV index is 非常 high down there, I 会 say.

Glen Jeffery: Yes, exactly.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I mean, quote unquote, "你 feel it."

Glen Jeffery: 你 feel it. Yeah. Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Quote, unquote.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： It's interesting, I hosted a derm-oncologist on 这 podcast.

Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Dr. Teo Soleymani. So, he's a dermatologist who's also in derm-oncology.

Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： So, 皮肤 cancer is 一 of his specialties.

Glen Jeffery: His business.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 he surprised me when he told us 那 indeed sunburn 可以 lead to 皮肤 cancers. Too many sunburns 可以 lead to 皮肤 cancers, 但 那 the most deadly 皮肤 cancers, the most deadly melanomas, are not associated 与 sun exposure.

Glen Jeffery: Yes. Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 那些 可以 occur independent of sun exposure, 和 they 经常 occur on parts of the 身体 那 get 非常 little sun exposure.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Like the melanomas 会 show up... I think Bob Marley died eventually 从 一 那 started between his toes 或 something, 或 on the bottom of the foot.

Glen Jeffery: Mm. Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： There's a lot to unpack 关于 the relationship between light 和 皮肤 cancers, 和 I'm going to chase down the literature trail of 这 Weller guy.

Glen Jeffery: Well, Richard Weller is 非常 interesting. I think he said he hasn't got any dermatological friends anymore.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Probably not.

Glen Jeffery: 但 he also pointed out 那 if 皮肤 cancer was directly related 与 sunlight, then 我们 应该 find in 皮肤 cancer patients 非常 high 水平 of vitamin D. In actual fact, they've got relatively low 水平 of vitamin D.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm.

Glen Jeffery: So, as 你 say, 那 story needs to be unpacked. 和 what's happened, I think, in the dermatological literature is 那 我们've followed a pattern. Yeah. 我们've followed an assumption, 和 it's gone a 非常 long way down the line, 和 then it's taken a little bit of a rogue to come out 和 say, "Hang on. 我们 need to take a step back here." 和 I think Richard Weller's leading 那. 和 我们 obviously both have an interest in daylight, 但 his interest in daylight tends to be focused a little bit 更多 on 那些 blue short wavelengths, whereas I'm at the other end of the spectrum.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 但 I think he's a mover 和 a shaker.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Great. Well, I'm excited to see where 那 literature leads.

Glen Jeffery: Mm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 I'm glad 那 somebody's parsing, as 你 said, all the corners of it, 因为 I think 我们've been fed a story 那 excessive sunlight leads to 皮肤 cancer. 和 the 数据 on reduced all-cause mortality in 人们 那 get a lot of sunlight, I saw a 研究 out of Sweden. Looks 非常, 非常 solid.

Glen Jeffery: Mm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 但 更多 数据 is needed, clearly.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： So...

Glen Jeffery: I think 那 那 story... There was a story out of Sweden. There was also a story out of the University of East Anglia. 和 我们're talking big numbers. 我们're talking 非常 big numbers on 那. So, it could have a lot of points 那 我们 don't quite understand yet. 但 I think the solid thrust of it, 和 the interesting thrust of it, 对于 me, is 那 all-cause mortality flagships up on 那 are cardiovascular disease 和 cancers.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: It's not the obvious ones 那 我们'd be thinking 关于.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: So, yeah, let's use the term unpacking.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 那 一 definitely needs unpacking. 但 从 a public health perspective, 那's an 重要 area.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Well, I'm certainly a fan of 人们 getting sunlight both in their eyes 和 on their 皮肤, 尽管 not to the point of burning, obviously.

Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

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Glen Jeffery: Yeah, sure. 那 area is expanding enormously. 和 it's expanding enormously in lots of little pockets, 和 the pockets weren't 总是 talking to 一 another 非常 well. The 首先 person 那 came along 和 said, "Look, longer wavelengths are 确实 positively affecting mitochondrial function," was a lady called Tiina Karu in Russia, 和 who was 非常 largely ignored. I think she's still alive. I 会 love to buy her a glass of champagne, if only 因为 she started it off. She kick-started it off. 但 she was 非常 much of the opinion 那 mitochondria absorb long waves of light. Parts of the mitochondria absorb it. 和 一 of my 研究 to try 和 pin 这 down was to take a whole load of mitochondria, put them in a test tube, put a spectrometer on them, 和 a light, 和 say, "What are 这些 guys absorbing?" Well, I found the point where they were absorbing the damaging blue light, 但 I could not find the red. I could not find it. There was a lot of stomping 大约 in the lab, who's made a mistake, everyone parceling the blame on. 但 it changed. It changed 因为 what absorbs long-wavelength light? Well, a most obvious 一 is 水. The sea is blue 因为 the long wavelengths are absorbed. So, someone came along 和 said, "Is it 关于 水? Is it 关于 水 in mitochondria 那's doing 这?" Mitochondria make 能量. They make 能量 called ATP, 和 你 make 你的 身体 weight in 那 every 天. It's a vast process, 和 你 make it as a wheel turns round. Mitochondria have 这些 little wheels, 这些 pumps 那 spin 大约, 但 they spin 大约 in 水, nanowater. 和 apparently, I'm not a physicist, nanowater is viscous. So, 一 idea, I think, which 我们 have to take quite seriously is 那 the viscosity of 水 is changing as a consequence of long-wavelength light 那 penetrates deeply in the 身体. There is an 增加 in the spin rate of the motor 那 produces ATP, 和 it gains momentum. Now, 那 is absolutely fine. I 可以 stick 与 那 一. I think 那 一 makes considerable degree of sense, 和 it gets us over a problem. Mitochondria themselves are not absorbing long-wavelength light.

安德鲁·休伯曼： It's the 水 那 they're surrounded by.

Glen Jeffery: It's their environment.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: Okay. So, I think in the end, when 你 talk 关于 the function of anything, 我们 tend to 专注 on 那 thing, 和 我们 don't talk too much 关于 where is it.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: What's it surrounded by, 和 how does it influence it? So, the 首先 reaction I think is 那 the motor starts to go round a little faster. 但 then something else happens, which is 确实 interesting, which is 我们 start to make 更多 of 这些 chains 那 make 能量. So, let's say mitochondria is a chain, it's a series of things, 和 electrons are passed along 那 chain to produce 能量. Well, when 我们 give long-wavelength light, 我们 find the proteins in 那些 chains, 我们 find a lot 更多 of them. So, my analogy is 那 giving red light gets the train to run down the track faster. 那's true. 但 then something detects the speed of 那 train 和 says, "Lay down 更多 tracks. 我们 need 更多 tracks."

安德鲁·休伯曼： Hmm.

Glen Jeffery: So, 我们're finding a lot 更多 protein there 那 is associated 与 passing 那 electron down the 通路 to make 能量.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Interesting. So, it sounds as if long-wavelength light via 水 is actually changing the structure of mitochondria 和 its function as well.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. I think I 会 say it's improving the function, 和 it's influencing 更多 mitochondrial proteins to be synthesized.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: So, 我们've got an immediate effect, 和 我们've got a longer-term effect as well.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Well, 一 thing 我们 know 关于 mitochondria is 那 they started off as independent bits of biology 和 then the eukaryotic cells, which 我们 have, 本质上 took 那些 in 和 they became fundamentally part of the cell, 和 it's passed on 通过 the genome.

Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： So, the idea was 那 mitochondria were separate 从 我们的 cells at 一 point, 或 从 cells, 和 were 本质上 co-opted by 我们的 cells 或 hijacked 我们的 cells, 我们 don't know which.

Glen Jeffery: Mm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 then now, 因为 they share a genome, mitochondrial DNA, 和 genomic DNA, they're passed along.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 it makes perfect sense to me as to why 那 if they're 确实 of bacterial origin, which 我们 think they are, 那 they 会 be absorbing 或 通过 the 水 they 会 be absorbing long-wavelength light 因为 they evolved in 水. I think it's worth us just mentioning 这 business of absorption versus reflection in terms of colors.

Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： I think 人们 可能 find 这 interesting, 那 你 said the ocean appears blue 因为 it's absorbing all the red, all the long-wavelength light, 和 it's reflecting back the short-wavelength blue light.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Red stuff does the exact opposite. Like when 我们 see a red apple, it's doing the exact opposite.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： It's reflecting the red light back towards us the long-wavelength light.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I think most 人们 probably don't realize 那, 和 then 我们 talk 关于 white containing all the wavelengths, right?

Glen Jeffery: Yes. Yes.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 black absorbing all the wavelengths, right?

Glen Jeffery: Yes. Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 那's the notion.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： So, it's interesting to think 关于 light as either being absorbed 或 reflected back, 和 makes perfect sense to me why the mitochondria 会 absorb the red light, 但 of course I'm saying 那 already hearing the just so story. So, it makes sense once 你 hear it, right?

Glen Jeffery: Yes. It makes sense once 你 hear it. 和 why the hell did 我们 not think 关于 那 five years ago? Scientists make 确实 big mistakes in the 通路 那 they follow, 和 they don't talk 关于 their mistakes.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 但 their mistakes are every bit as 重要 as their great 结果. Why didn't 我们 think 关于 水? 因为 我们的 minds were trapped at a certain 通路 going down a certain alleyway.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 和 so, whatever 你 think 关于 the 水 hypothesis, the key point is 那 improvements in function as a consequence of exposure to longer-wavelength light correlate tightly 与 what 水 absorbs, right? So, okay, 那's a big 一. 那's a big 一. 那 is there. 我们 know 那's true. 你 可以 pull it apart 和 find there are things called 水 holes, where there are places where 水 absorbs a bit 更多 than it does in other places. 但 fundamentally, the absorption of long-wavelength light fits 水.

安德鲁·休伯曼： So, much of 你的 work focuses on how long-wavelength light 可以 增强 the function of cells 那 are not on the surface of the 身体. They're not on the 皮肤. They're in the eyes, 和 now 我们'll get to 这 数据 soon, 但 你 published 数据 那 long-wavelength light 可以 penetrate 非常 deeply, 和 even 通过 the 身体.

Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Even when 人们 are wearing a T-shirt, like all the way 通过 the 身体 和 impact mitochondria all along the way.

Glen Jeffery: Mm. Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： So, maybe 我们 应该 just talk 关于 long-wavelength light 和 how it 可以 penetrate 通过 the 皮肤. 你 mentioned 那 UV is 本质上 blocked by the 皮肤.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： So, if I step outside, 对于 instance, on a nice sunny 早晨 或 even a partially overcast 早晨, 但 some long-wavelength light is coming 通过, is it passing all the way 通过 my 身体 和 impacting the 水 和 mitochondria of every cell along the way? Is it scattering? I mean, how deep does 这 stuff go?

Glen Jeffery: Okay. So, let's stand 你 out. Let's strip 你 off 和 stand 你 out in sunlight 12:00 in July. The vast majority of long-wavelength light is being absorbed in the 身体, so what 我们 assume is 那 it has a 非常, 非常 high scattering ratio. So, the vast majority of 那 long-wavelength light it's going to get 通过 进入 你的 身体, 和 it's going to bounce 大约.

安德鲁·休伯曼： So, it's going to literally go 通过 the 皮肤.

Glen Jeffery: It goes 通过 the 皮肤, 和 let's take the simple experiment. The simple experiment was 你 strip 人们 off, 和 你 stand them in front of sunlight, 和 你 put a radiometer on their back.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Tell us what a radiometer is.

Glen Jeffery: A radiometer measures the amount of 能量 coming 通过, okay? 和 then 我们 put a spectrometer on 你的 back as well, which tells us the wavelength. So, what 我们 get 从 那, the reading 我们 get 从 那, is 那 a few percent, a few percent is coming out the back. Now, 我们 shouldn't concentrate on 那. What 我们 应该 concentrate on is what happens to the rest 因为 it's not bouncing back 从 the surface of the 皮肤. 非常 little bounces back. It's being absorbed.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Amazing.

Glen Jeffery: Okay.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Which is amazing.

Glen Jeffery: Well, it's 非常 interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼： It makes sense, based on the physics of it, 但 it's amazing, right, 那 the long wavelength light is actually penetrating 我们的 皮肤, bouncing 大约 in 我们的 internal organs, 和 some's getting out the other side.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I think 那's going to surprise a number of 人们.

Glen Jeffery: In any conversation like 这, 我们 need to talk 关于 silos, 人们 coming 从 不同的 angles at a problem. 和 I have the advantage of Bob Fosbury working 与 me. Bob was lead 对于 analyzing atmospheres on exoplanets 与 the European Space Agency. He had a lot to do 与 the European use of Hubble, 和 a lot of his spectrometers are up on the James Webb telescope. Now, there are super advantages 对于 having someone 从 another silo to come in, 但 there are also 确实 annoying issues as well. So, I said, "Bob, I only want to measure whether light goes 通过 the 身体." 和 he said, "我们 all know 那. Forget it. It's a waste of time." 和 I said, "你 think 你 know it based on principles of physics. I don't know it. 和 actually, I don't think 你 know something until it's published 和 everybody knows it 和 可以 talk 关于 it."

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: So, yeah, Bob came along 和 said, "Yeah, long-wavelength has to go 通过." 但 it needed demonstrating. Now, the other thing 那 Bob did pick up on 这 和 did start to get a lot 更多 interested in it, 因为 then he went 通过 his wardrobe, 和 he took 不同的 layers of clothing 从 his wardrobe 和 put long-wavelength lights behind them, 和 said, "What goes 通过 clothing?" 和 the amazing thing is long-wavelength light goes 通过 clothing.

安德鲁·休伯曼： It goes 通过 clothing.

Glen Jeffery: It goes 通过 clothing. Okay.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Any clothing?

Glen Jeffery: Well, if 你 want to wear rubber, I think not. 但 if 你 want to wear 你的 standard T-shirt, I think he used six layers, T-shirt.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 does color matter? Like, I'm wearing a black shirt right now.

Glen Jeffery: No. Makes no difference whatsoever. 和 the other thing 我们 do not know, 和 这 is terribly 重要, there's lots of 我们 don't knows here, is 这 long-wavelength light bounces 大约 all over the place. So, 我们 have got some long-wavelength light sources, 和 I think I'm shining 这 long-wavelength light there, right?

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 和 then when I put my instrumentation up, it's all over the place.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Inside the 身体.

Glen Jeffery: 和 inside the 身体, inside the room. It's going every... I 可以't control it, not unless I start putting materials like aluminum foil to block it.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: So, when 我们 think 关于 long-wavelength light, its advantages, 我们 talk 关于 using 这 device 或 那 device. What 我们 also need to think 关于 is, okay, 你've got a small device 与 a small beam of light going here. It's bouncing all 大约 the room. It's coming in 从 a 不同的 angle 和 不同的 parts of 你的 身体.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 但 certainly most concentrated in terms of 能量 at the point source.

Glen Jeffery: Most... Yeah. 但 你 cannot assume 那 the point source is the only source of 那 long-wavelength light if 你're in a confined space.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm. Well, let's use 那 as an opportunity to talk 关于 a related 研究, 和 then 我们'll circle back to the let's call it the light passing 通过 the 身体 研究.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 因为 the 研究 I'm 关于 to mention, I think, is going to be so interesting to 人们 和 a little bit shocking 和 非常, 非常 cool, 因为 it's actionable, which is 你 did a 研究 showing 那 even if 你 illuminate just a small portion of the 皮肤 与 long-wavelength light, it changes the 血液 glucose response. Literally, 血液 sugar response is altered by shining red light on the 皮肤.

Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 对于 years, there were 这些, let's call them corners of the internet 那 会 say things like, "Oh, when 你 eat out of doors, it has a 不同的 effect on 你的 身体 than when 你 eat indoors."

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 但 there are too many variables there, right? 因为 when 你 eat out of doors, 通常 it's at a picnic, 和 then 你 have greenery, 和 there's socializing.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 no 一's going to fund a proper 研究 to parse every variable in a picnic versus an indoor cafeteria.

Glen Jeffery: No.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 it's not worth the taxpayer dollars, frankly. 你 did the right 研究, which was to shine light on, what was it, the back?

Glen Jeffery: It was on a small area of the back, yeah. 和 I must make it 非常 clear, 首先 of all, the person whose idea 这 was my colleague Mike Powner. 和 Mike's thought processes were 非常, 非常 clear. 我们 were on a long drive to do some 研究 well out of London, 和 那's a great time 对于... 因为 the journey starts at 5:00 in the 早晨, it's a great time 对于 gossip. It's a great time 对于 wild ideas, 对于 streams of consciousness, which sometimes are 非常 重要 in science. 和 it was Mike who said to me, "If 我们 make mitochondria work harder, then they need glucose, 和 they need oxygen." So, pause while Glen, who is driving, kind of has to catch up on 这 idea. I'm generally 关于 a mile behind him intellectually. 和 I mean, yeah, yeah. So, he said, "Well, let's not make idiots of ourselves. Let's do it 与 bumblebees." So, 我们的 首先 experiment was to 增加...

安德鲁·休伯曼： Of course, bumblebees. Yeah.

Glen Jeffery: Of course, why not?

安德鲁·休伯曼： Yeah.

Glen Jeffery: 首先 experiment was on bumblebees 因为 it didn't involve 人们. It was simple to do. 和 all 我们 did was 我们 starved bumblebees overnight, gave them a standard 血液 glucose test.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Sounds a lot harder than working on humans.

Glen Jeffery: No, it's not. 你 just give them a little bit of glucose 因为 they have 那 和 then go, "Dub, dub, dub, dub, dub," 和 their 血液 glucose goes up.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Okay.

Glen Jeffery: 我们 gave them red light 或 blue light. 我们 give them red light, 和 their 血液 glucose does not go up as much. 我们 give them blue light, 和 their 血液 glucose goes 非常 high.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm. So they're using 更多 of the 能量.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. So...

安德鲁·休伯曼： In the red light condition.

Glen Jeffery: In the red light condition. 但 in the blue light condition, 我们're slowing their mitochondria down, 和 so there is 更多 glucose flowing 大约. I 应该 say 那 sampling the 血液 in a bee is a little bit difficult, 但 你 basically pull off 一 of the antennae, 和 你 squeeze a bee, 和 你 get a little piece of...

安德鲁·休伯曼： All the bee lovers out there are cringing.

Glen Jeffery: 但 我们 went to the chemist, 和 我们 bought just the standard 血液 glucose, the test 那 你 可以 get 对于 a few dollars.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 我们 got a result. 因此, it's worth moving forward. 因此, 我们 got the ethical permission. I 可以't do the experiment on blue light. I regard 那 as unethical.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 确实?

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. I don't...

安德鲁·休伯曼： 我们're under blue light all 天. I'm absolutely convinced 那 being under blue light 或 short-wavelength shifted light all 天 is altering 血液 glucose in ways 那 are detrimental.

Glen Jeffery: I complete...

安德鲁·休伯曼： 但 in any case, 之前 I rant 关于 那, what happened in human?

Glen Jeffery: So, in the humans, 我们 did a standard 血液 glucose tolerance test, which is horrible. So 你 get 人们 to starve overnight, they come in, they drink 这 big sort of cup of vial glucose. So, 我们 确实 pump up the glucose in their 身体. 和 then 我们 prick their fingers at regular intervals 和 sample their 血液, 和 see how their 血液 glucose 水平 changes. 和 你的 血液 glucose 水平 会 peak in 关于 40 to 60 分钟. It's hard getting 受试者 对于 这 一. 和 我们 also put a tube up their nose so 我们 could detect how much oxygen they were consuming. 你're calling on friends. I mean, I even dragged my son in as a subject 对于 那 一. The result when 我们 gave 人们 a burst of red light beforehand to stimulate their mitochondria was super clear. It wasn't ambiguous. The 血液 glucose 水平 went up, 但 they didn't peak anywhere near as seriously as they did 没有 the red light. Now, I'm told 那 the 水平 of 你的 血液 glucose is not necessarily a massive issue 对于 concern. What is an issue 对于 concern is it spiking, how much it spikes. 和 the reduction in the spike was of the order of, it was just over 20%, if I remember correctly.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Where was the light shone on the 身体?

Glen Jeffery: It was shone on the back, 和 it covered... I forgot what the percentage of the 身体 area was. I did 这 calculation four 或 five times 因为 it was ridiculously small. So, 我们 were stimulating a 非常 limited area of the 身体, 但 我们 got a systemic response. There was no way 那 the mitochondria in 那 little patch of 皮肤 was having 那 effect. 但 it fits 进入 a wider notion 那 all 这些 mitochondria act as a community, 和 我们 now know 那. 那's coming all 从 不同的 corners. They do things together. It takes them a little time to have a conversation 关于 it, 但 they act together. 和 if 我们're doing something which was over 一 to 二 小时, 那's long enough 对于 them to hold 那 conversation. I'd love to know 更多 关于 那.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Do 你 recall whether the 受试者 could feel 热 从 the infrared light?

Glen Jeffery: No.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Okay. So they're not feeling 热, so 那 removes also a potential placebo effect of some sort.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Do 你 recall just roughly what the area of illumination was? Was it...

Glen Jeffery: It's in the publication.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Okay.

Glen Jeffery: 但 let's go like 这.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Okay. So 对于 那些 just listening, maybe like a four-by-six rectangle.

Glen Jeffery: Four-by-six rectangle makes sense.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Four-by-six inches.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah, yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Yeah, 对于 all 那些 metric 系统 folks out there.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 我们're on common ground here given 你're 从 the UK.

Glen Jeffery: 但 我们're not unique in finding 这. It's just 那 other 人们 are finding things 与 red light 那 are sitting behind 不同的 walls.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: So John Mitrofanis, he did most of his 研究 in Australia. He induces Parkinson's disease in primates, which 你 可以 do pretty much overnight 与 a drug, 和 then he was giving red light to 不同的 parts of the 身体. Now, Parkinson's disease originates 从 a 非常 small nucleus deep in the 大脑 stem, 但 he was 减少 the symptoms of Parkinson's disease in 这些 primates 非常 significantly 与 lights 那 were being shone on the abdomen. So in any 一 of 这些, 你 take in isolation, 和 there are many of 这些 研究, 和 你 go, "Yeah, maybe. Yeah."

安德鲁·休伯曼： What does he think it was doing? I mean, clearly it's not rescuing the 多巴胺 neurons 那 degenerate in Parkinson's, 但 maybe it's rescuing components of the 通路?

Glen Jeffery: It could be rescuing components of the 通路. I think 那 我们 know 那 red light, 和 我们're using 那 term 非常 loosely, 和 perhaps 我们 shouldn't. 我们 know 那 long-wavelength light 减少 the magnitude of cell death in the 身体.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm.

Glen Jeffery: Cell death is 非常 经常 initiated apoptosis by mitochondria. When mitochondria get fed up 和 the... I see them as batteries. When the charge on the battery goes down low enough, they put their hand up, 和 they say, "Time to die."

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 I think they actually present a molecular eat me signal which is interesting.

Glen Jeffery: Yes.

安德鲁·休伯曼： When 我们 talk 关于 cells dying, 我们 think 关于 it as sort of they go 从 a shout to a whimper, 和 then they get cleaned up. Like, they die. 但 actually, they solicit 对于 their own death 与 这 eat me signal.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Yeah. They'll get opsonized 对于 the 人们 那 anything 关于 the 免疫系统, opsonization. They're 相似的 things. So if I understand correctly, he induced an insult to 这些 多巴胺 neurons, 和 then he used red light shone on the abdomen to offset some of the degeneration 那 会 have occurred.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Okay.

Glen Jeffery: Now, 那 again fits 进入 the wider spectrum of other 研究 那's not put together. So 那 was John, 和 John has been a big leader in red light dementia 和 Parkinson's disease, 和 a lot of it in primate models, which means it's got a lot of validity to it.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Yeah, they're 相似的 to us.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah, they're 非常...

安德鲁·休伯曼： 我们're us to them.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Yeah.

Glen Jeffery: Another experiment 我们 did was... Over life, 你 会 lose a third of 你的 rod photoreceptors in 你的 retina.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Maybe just explain 对于 人们 what the rod 系统 does. Yeah.

Glen Jeffery: Okay. The rod 系统 is the majority of photoreceptors are rods. They're the 受体 那 你 use when 你're dark-adapted, which a lot of us aren't 非常 much 这些 天. So 我们've got 我们的 cones, which deal 与 color 和 deal 与 bright light. Then, as 我们 turn the lights down, 我们 start to use 我们的 rods. So loads 和 loads of rods, relatively few cones.

安德鲁·休伯曼： What I usually tell students is 这 is like in the old 天 when everyone didn't have a smartphone near their bed, 你 wake up in the middle of the 夜间, 和 你 need to use the restroom. 你 可以 navigate to the restroom. 你 可能 flick the light on in the restroom. I don't recommend doing 那. It'll quash 你的 melatonin unless it's a red light.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 或 你 go out on a hike, 和 你 don't bring what 我们 call a flashlight, Glen. 你 guys call it a torch.

Glen Jeffery: Yes. Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 但 as 你 come back, 你的 eyes start to adapt. It's getting dark. 你 可以 still see the outline of the trail. There's not starlight yet. 但 你're able to, as 你 say, dark adapt, 和 你 可以 see enough of what 你 need to see. 你're using 你的 rod 系统.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. The key thing here is rods are 非常 numerous. Cones are not so. So what happens then, 对于 instance, if 我们 take aging animals 和 我们 just expose them to red light every 天? 我们 give them a burst of red light, 和 then 我们 count the number of rods they've got when they reach old age, 和 the result is super clear. 我们 have reduced the pace of cell death in the retina, okay? So, red light is affecting mitochondria. Mitochondria have the ability to signal cell death, 和 我们're drawing back the probability of 那 cell dying. Now, 我们 did 那 in mice. 我们 did it on a lot of mice. It was a killer of an experiment to keep animals going forever. 和 then I forced 一 of my graduate students basically to go 一, 二, 三, four, 和 count photoreceptor outer segments. She was a hero. So, 我们 可以 use red light to 减少 the pace of cell death. So, I am not too surprised 那 John Mitrofanis 会 have reduced the pace of cell death in the substantia nigra, 那 nucleus 那 gives rise to Parkinson's disease. I'm seeing 那 coming out of loads of 不同的 labs, things 那 are all consistent 与 那 kind of story. The other thing 那 I think 你 可以 start to address is, if 你've got bad mitochondria, say, 非常 loose term, if 你've got bad mitochondria, as 你 do have in Parkinson's disease, they're bad, they're not functioning 非常 well, on their way to death, are they influencing other parts of 你的 身体? Parkinson's patients, 你 think, well, okay, they're all going to have movement disorders. 但 in actual fact, a lot of Parkinson's patients have a lot of other things 那 are going on in them, 和 我们're minded to think 那 as good information 可以 be passed to mitochondria 和 可以 be shared in 那 community, so 可以 bad information.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: If 你 确实 upset mitochondria in 一 place, then other things are changing in 不同的 places. So, the big takeaway here, 和 it's not controversial to say, I've heard lots of 人们 saying it, 和 I didn't say it originally, is 那 they're a community. 你 可以't deal 与 them in isolation.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Even across cells in 不同的 areas of the 身体, they're a community.

Glen Jeffery: They are a community.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Probably by secreting certain things 那 support each other. Maybe I've heard some 证据 那 mitochondria 可以 actually be 释放了 从 cells.

Glen Jeffery: Oh, yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 不同的, 尽管 not entirely 不同的 than 神经递质 are 释放了 between cells 和 communicate between cells.

Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 非常 interesting when 一 thinks 关于 mitochondria of having maybe bacterial origin, again, 那 我们的 cells co-opted 或 they co-opted us. 我们 don't know, again, the direction there. I have a question 关于 how far long-wavelength light 可以 penetrate 和 通过 what 组织. I realize 那 in the 研究 我们've been talking 关于, it's long-wavelength light exposure to the back, lowering the 血液 glucose response.

Glen Jeffery: Yes.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 或 to the abdomen, offsetting some of the degeneration as it relates to 这 Parkinson's model. If I were to take a long-wavelength light 和 put it close to my head, 会 it penetrate the skull?

Glen Jeffery: Oh, definitely. If 你 look at a long-wave light source, 和 again, 这 is published, Bob Fosbury did 这, he put his hand on 一, comes straight 通过 his hand, 但 the interesting thing is 你 可以't see the bones. It's passing 通过 the bone. So, 那 led me to go 进入 grabbing a few skulls, 和 yeah, it's 确实 not affected 那 much by bone. I was talking to some audiology guys in Cambridge who wanted to use red light, 和 they were taking, I think, heads 或 something, 和 looking at them. 和 they were shining red light in the eye, 和 they say, "我们 可以 see it in the ear."

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: "I 可以 see it," 和 vice versa. So, there are things 那 red light does not, 会 not, doesn't go 通过. So, it is absorbed by deoxygenated 血液. So, 你 get fantastic pictures of 你的 veins in 你的 hand 或 in 你的 head.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 但 the most obvious thing 那 你 think is 那 long-wavelength light 会 be blocked by something thick, like a skull. The answer is no.

安德鲁·休伯曼： So, going back to 我们的 example of the ocean appearing blue 因为 of blue light getting reflected back 和 red light getting absorbed.

Glen Jeffery: Mm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I think 这 is 非常 重要 to kind of double-click on in 人们's minds. 因为 人们 会 see an image, 对于 instance, 和 I'll put a link to it 从 这 recent publication of yours, of red light 和 other, excuse me, long wavelength light, not just red light being shown on a hand. 和 indeed, 你 don't see the bones, 和 你 see the vasculature, 这 deoxygenated 血液.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： When 人们 see a structure under a particular wavelength of light, the kind of reflex is to assume 那 那些 structures are the ones 那 are using the light. 但 in fact, it's the exact opposite.

Glen Jeffery: Exactly the other way 大约.

安德鲁·休伯曼： It's the stuff 你 don't see, right, 那 it's passing 通过.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 I think 对于 a lot of 人们, 那's just kind of counterintuitive.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： So they'll see an image of the veins carrying 那 deoxygenated 血液, 和 they'll say, "Oh, red light is impacting the veins," right?

Glen Jeffery: Mm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 但 the interesting thing is 那 it's passing 通过... 那 is interesting in itself, 但 it's passing 通过 all 这些 other structures. 和 to me, the idea 那 when I go out on a sunny 天, 因为 the sun includes long wavelength light, 或 were I to be near a long wavelength light-emitting device, 那 it's actually getting 进入 the deep 大脑 组织 通过 the skull.

Glen Jeffery: Mm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I think 对于 most 人们, it's just not intuitive to think 关于 light passing 通过 things 那 are solid in 那 way.

Glen Jeffery: Yes, 和 I had exactly the same problem. I had exactly the same problem. If 你 put a radiometer 和 a spectrometer to measure the 能量 和 the wavelength on 一 side of someone's head 和 a light source on the other side of someone's head, 你 get a clear result. Now, interestingly, it's not a sideline, it's actually a 非常 重要 issue. A biomedical engineer, Ilias Tachtsidis at UCL, has used 这 因为 he works on, some of his work is on neonates 那 have had stroke. 和 he takes the neonate 和 actually does exactly 那 experiment. He passes red light wavelengths of light 通过 the side of the neonate's head 和 records them coming out the other side, 和 he 可以 use 那 as a metric of how well the mitochondria are functioning in 那 damaged 大脑.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm.

Glen Jeffery: 和 the readouts 那 he gets are readouts 那 are indicative of the potential survival of 那 neonate.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Wow.

Glen Jeffery: Now, I think there are lots of wows here. 首先 of all, he's got his work 进入 a major London teaching 和 研究 hospital. He's got it 进入 kids, 和 我们've acknowledged 那 这 is not dangerous, right? He's gone 通过 loads of ethics committees.

安德鲁·休伯曼： The long wavelength light, red 和 out towards infrared 和 near-infrared, is non-ionizing.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Right? It's not altering the DNA of the cells.

Glen Jeffery: No.

安德鲁·休伯曼： It's contributing to the healthy function of the mitochondria. Forgive me 对于 interrupting.

Glen Jeffery: No, it's a good point.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 因为 when 人们 hear 关于 light passing 通过 a baby's head in order to make 那 kid healthier, I mean, it's spectacular.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I love 那 这 is being done at such a fine institution 和 so carefully. 但 the reason it's safe is 因为 那's long wavelength light.

Glen Jeffery: Long wavelength.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Were 这 to be short wavelength light, 我们 have no idea what it 会 be doing. I mean, babies have 非常 thin skulls. UV 会 be, who knows? X-rays, certainly 你 会 从不, ever, ever want to do 这. So yeah, I think it's 重要 那 人们 确实 remember what 我们're talking 关于 passing 通过.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Okay. Yeah.

Glen Jeffery: 和 I think 那 it's a 非常 重要 point 因为 I have gone 通过 so many ethics committees to shine long wavelength light to do various things, including on 人们 那 are... They've got problems, 或 they've got sight problems. They're patients. 我们've actually also done it 与 children. 和 我们've got 通过 ethics committees 确实 与 非常, 非常 little comment.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 因为 on many of the ethics committees, they're physicists 和 they understand the issue.

安德鲁·休伯曼： By now, I'm sure 那 many of 你 have heard me say 那 I've been taking AG1 对于 更多 than a decade, 和 indeed, 那's true. The reason I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, 和 the reason why I still continue to take it every single 天, is 因为 AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality 和 most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market. What 那 means is 那 it contains not just vitamins 和 minerals, 但 also probiotics, prebiotics, 和 adaptogens to cover any gaps 那 你 可能 have in 你的 diet while also providing support 对于 a demanding life. Given the probiotics 和 prebiotics in AG1, it also helps support a healthy gut microbiome. The gut microbiome consists of trillions of little microorganisms 那 line 你的 digestive tract 和 impact things such as 你的 免疫 status, 你的 metabolic health, 你的 激素 health, 和 much 更多. Taking AG1 consistently helps my digestion, keeps my 免疫系统 strong, 和 it ensures 那 my 情绪 和 mental 专注 are 总是 at their best. AG1 is now available in 三 new flavors: berry, citrus, 和 tropical. 和 while I've 总是 loved the AG1 original flavor, 尤其是 与 a bit of lemon juice added, I'm 确实 enjoying the new berry flavor in particular. It tastes great, 但 then again, I do love all the flavors. If 你'd like to try AG1 和 try 这些 new flavors, 你 可以 go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer. Just go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get started. Today's episode is also brought to us by Rorra. Rorra makes what I believe are the best 水 filters on the market. It's an unfortunate reality, 但 tap 水 经常 contains contaminants 那 negatively impact 我们的 health. In fact, a 2020 研究 by the Environmental Working Group estimated 那 更多 than 200 million Americans are exposed to PFAS chemicals, also known as forever chemicals, 通过 drinking of tap 水. 这些 forever chemicals are linked to serious health issues such as 激素 disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, 和 many other health problems. The Environmental Working Group has also shown 那 over 122 million Americans drink tap 水 与 high 水平 of chemicals known to cause cancer. It's 对于 all 这些 reasons 那 I'm thrilled to have Rorra as a sponsor of 这 podcast. I've been using the Rorra countertop 系统 对于 almost a year now. Rorra's filtration technology removes harmful substances, including endocrine disruptors 和 disinfection byproducts, while preserving beneficial minerals like magnesium 和 calcium. It requires no installation 或 plumbing, it's built 从 medical-grade stainless steel, 和 its sleek design fits beautifully on 你的 countertop. In fact, I consider it a welcome addition to my kitchen. It looks great, 和 the 水 is delicious. If 你'd like to try Rorra, 你 可以 go to rorra.com/huberman 和 get an exclusive discount. Again, 那's Rorra, R-O-R-R-A.com/huberman. Let's talk 关于 the 二 sort of bookends of age. 你 just mentioned babies, 和 我们'll return to babies, children, 和 youth. Let's talk 关于 some of the work 你've done on retinal aging 和 using long wavelength light. I'm being 非常 careful 与 my language here, 因为 if I say red, 人们 think 你 have to see it, 但 there's red, near-infrared, NIR, it's 通常 shown as NIR, infrared light. 和 I think 我们 batch 那些 when 我们 say long wavelength light. It's going, what? 650 nanometers 会 be red out to, I guess it's as far as 900 nanometers 或 so?

Glen Jeffery: Yeah, 和 then beyond 900 is infrared. So 我们've got the near-infrared, 和 我们've got the infrared. Now, 你're right. 我们've got to start defining 这些 terms a little bit 更多 clearly. 但 I think 对于 nearly all of the 研究 我们're talking 关于, 我们're talking 关于 where vision stops, which is 大约 700, 和 我们're talking 关于 the near-infrared, which is, 对于 practical purposes, is going up to 大约 900.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 但 I remember doing an experiment 与 UV once, 和 it was a bizarre experiment, trying to work out if a reindeer could see UV light.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Do they?

Glen Jeffery: Yeah, they do actually. 但 then, while 我们 were doing the experiment, I was beginning to say, "Look, I'm not believing any of 这 数据 因为 I 可以 see 这 flashing now." 和 as was pointed out to me, 你 会 see wavelengths of light 那 你 shouldn't see if 你 just turn the 能量 up.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: So, if I put 你 in a room 与 UV 和 I pump loads of 能量 进入 那 UV, 你'll see things 那 你 shouldn't.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm.

Glen Jeffery: 和 likewise 与 the reds, 你 shouldn't 确实 see much above 700. I 可以 get 你 to see 850 if I just turn the 能量 up a bit, 和 你 see 这些 little red glows.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Yeah, 这 explains a lot of 人们's ideas 关于 whether 或 not they've seen ghosts, 但 那's a 不同的 podcast, ghosts 和 UFOs. 但 an interesting discussion 但 对于 another time.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 但 I 可以't help 但 mention 那, okay, maybe 我们'll return to 这 later, 但 Glen has worked on a variety of species, as have I over the years. So maybe at the end, 我们'll do a quick catalog of the species 那 我们've worked on over the years. So, I'm not surprised to learn 那 你 worked on reindeers, given the other species 你've worked on. 但 returning to the human, 你 published some papers over the last five, six years 或 so, looking at how, when the eyes specifically are exposed to long-wavelength light, it 可以 do excellent things 对于 preserving vision 或 off-setting some loss of visual function. Could 你 detail 那些 experiments 对于 us?

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. So, let's take 二 pieces of information 首先. So 一 of the main theories of aging is the mitochondrial theory of aging. Mitochondria regulate the pace of aging. So if 你 可以 regulate mitochondrial health, 你 可以 regulate aging. 那's relatively clear. So, 那's the 首先 thing. 和 then the 秒 thing to remember is 那 there's 更多 mitochondria in 你的 retina than there is in any other part of 你的 身体. 你的 retina has got the highest metabolic rate in the 身体, ages fast, 和 my argument 总是 is, it's the sports car. Bangs out of the garage, 但 之后 so many thousand miles, 你've got to service it, otherwise it falls apart. So there was a 非常 strong argument 对于 trying to manipulate mitochondria in the retina, which is great 对于 me 因为 I'm a retinal person, I'm a visual person, so I had the tools to do it. So, the 首先 experiment 我们 did, which was 非常 gratifying, was to actually measure 人们's ability to see colors. Now, 我们 used a rather sophisticated test, 首先 of all, 和 那 was 我们'd put on a 非常 high resolution monitor, say, the letter T in blue, 和 then 我们'd add loads 和 loads of visual noise to it in the background, 或 我们'd have an F in red, visual noise. 和 then 我们 found the threshold at which they could see 那 letter 和 happily identify it. So, 我们 found out what their visual ability was 对于 colors. 我们 then gave them a burst of red light to 改善 their mitochondria in cells 那 are 非常 mitochondria-dependent, 和 我们 then brought them back, 和 我们 found the threshold had changed. Their threshold had 改善了 in every 一 of 那些 受试者 bar 一.

安德鲁·休伯曼： They could see something they couldn't see 之前.

Glen Jeffery: See 之前.

安德鲁·休伯曼： By 一, I think it's hard 对于... What scale is it on? Some of 这些 tests, 这 is like the tritan test.

Glen Jeffery: Well, so 我们 tested tritan 和 protan, so...

安德鲁·休伯曼： Okay, so 这 is nerd speak 对于 the 不同的 visual tests. Most 人们 are familiar 与 the Snellen chart. When 你 go to get 你的 driver's license, 你 have to read the letters of 不同的 sizes.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 非常 不同的. 这 is measuring the just noticeable difference between 你 可以 see something, 你 可以't see something.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： When 你 say there was an improvement of 但 一, could 你 frame 那 in a real-world context 对于 人们 who are not thinking 关于 visual psychophysics?

Glen Jeffery: Okay. It's 非常 simple. Of all the 人们 我们've tested, 我们've got an improvement, 和 there's 非常 large numbers of them, except 一 subject. So, all right?

安德鲁·休伯曼： Yeah. Ah, 你're saying 但 一.

Glen Jeffery: No, no, no.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I thought 你 meant 那 was the numerical the size of the effect. Okay.

Glen Jeffery: No. No. No. No. If 你 look over the population, the size of the effect is 大约 20%. It's 非常 substantial. All right? 但 我们的 ability to 改善 visual function varies enormously between 个体.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 你 said 但 一.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 这 is a UK/US nome...

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. Sorry.

安德鲁·休伯曼： No, 但 don't apologize. I 应该 apologize.

Glen Jeffery: Yes.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Okay. An improvement of 20%, improvement in threshold, so 人们 are seeing better than they did prior. Could 你 explain what they did 对于 the intervention? How many times a 周, a 天? How long are they shining red light in their eyes? Excuse me, long wavelength light. What's the nature of 那 light? Maybe even tell us how far away 从 it they are.

Glen Jeffery: Okay. So in 我们的 首先 experiments, 我们 used 670 nanometers, right? Which is a deep-ish red light. The only reason 我们 used 那 is 因为 all the 研究 之前 us, doing 不同的 things, had used 670, consequently there was a database. So 那's why 我们 did it, 和 我们 did it 与 a little torch 那 我们 put in front of someone's eye...

安德鲁·休伯曼： Flashlight. I'll translate the flashlight. Not a torch 与 fire near the eye.

Glen Jeffery: No, definitely not.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Oh my goodness.

Glen Jeffery: 和 我们 did 那 对于 三 分钟. 和 originally, 我们 did 那 every 天 对于 a number of 周.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Eye open, not eye closed.

Glen Jeffery: Makes 非常 little difference 因为 the long wavelength light passes 通过 the lid 没有 it being affected 非常 much. So, I said to 人们, "Whatever 你're comfortable 与. 你're doing me a favor. 你're being a subject in my experiment. I'm not paying 你 对于 it. 你 want to keep 你的 eyes closed, 你 keep 你的 eyes closed." 和 那些 人们 all had an improvement in their color vision. Now, 我们 then titrated 那 down. So instead of doing it every 天 对于 so many 天, 我们 just did it 对于 一 天, 和 三 分钟 of 那 light, 一 天, 和 我们 brought them back. I think it was an 小时 later. They all 改善了.

安德鲁·休伯曼： How stable was the effect? I mean, did they have to only do 一 treatment ever?

Glen Jeffery: No. I wish 那 was the case.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Okay.

Glen Jeffery: In all of 那些 人们, 和 I have to say, 我们've done 相似的 experiments on flies, on mice, on humans. It's five 天.

安德鲁·休伯曼： It lasts five 天.

Glen Jeffery: Five 天. It's a solid five-天 effect. So something 非常 fundamental 那 is conserved across evolution is playing a role here. 和 I have to say 那 to a 首先 approximation, anything I find in a fly, I find in a mouse, anything I find in a mouse, I find in a human. I 可以't find a big disjuncture between 那些 things. So, it lasted five 天. 和 the real big point to take on board is it's a switch. There's not a dose response curve here. It is a switch. 你 put enough 能量 in at a certain wavelength of light, 和 it goes bang 和 click, 和 then five 天 later, it goes chunk 和 stops.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I have a lot of questions 关于 这些 研究, so I'm going to try 和 be as precise 关于 them. I know it's on 人们's minds. If 人们 are going to get in front of a long-wavelength light-emitting device, do 你 think it's critical 那 it be 670 nanometers, 或 could it be 650 out to 800? How narrow band does the light actually have to be in terms of wavelength?

Glen Jeffery: Pretty much anything works to a rather 相似的 extent at 670 going upwards. When 你 go below 670 towards 650, the effects tend to be somewhat reduced.

安德鲁·休伯曼： If 这 is happening 非常 quickly, 你 said an 小时 later, the vision is better, thresholds have changed, 和 it lasts five 天.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Do 你 think 我们 可以 get the same effect 从 sunlight, given 那 sunlight contains 这些 long wavelengths of light? 或 is it 那 the sunlight isn't of sufficient 能量 对于 most 人们? I mean, 与 这, what 你 call torch, I call flashlight, light source, the way 你 described it 和 showed it 与 你的 hand 对于 那些 listening is fairly close to the eye, maybe eyelids closed 或 maybe open if 人们 可以 tolerate 那, 和 你're shining 那 light in their eyes 对于 a couple of 分钟. How 不同的 is it than stepping outside on a 确实 bright 天, closing my eyes if I look in the direction of the sun 因为 那's pleasant, 或 just walking in the sunlight 和 getting long wavelength exposure?

Glen Jeffery: Well, I'm a big fan of natural sunlight 因为 life has evolved 对于 billions of years under sunlight, right? It's only recently changed. I don't know 那 cutoff point, 但 there's an enormous difference between the light produced by a flashlight 和 sunlight. Sunlight is an enormous broad spectrum, 和 那 flashlight is just a little window of light 那 happens also to be present in sunlight.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: Now, I think the 二 situations are probably incomparable.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: Right? 和 I'm not going to spend whatever is left of my career hunting 那 down.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 我们 know, 和 I think 这 is the global concept I've got, which is 那 我们 可以 do much 与 single wavelengths of long wavelength light, right? Like a flashlight, which is 850 或 860. 我们 可以 do a lot. 但 我们 可以 从不 do the same as 你 可以 get 从 sunlight. 但 你 可以't do 那些 tight controlled experiments 与 sunlight 那 I 可以 do much 更多 easily 与 具体的 wavelengths.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm. Yeah, 和 你're in the UK, so 你'd have a lot of 天 where 你 couldn't do experiments at all.

Glen Jeffery: 我们 don't do sunlight.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I'm just kidding. Well, I must say oftentimes when I tell 人们 to get sunlight in their eyes in the 早晨 to set their 昼夜节律, I'm like a repeating record 与 那, 和 I 会 be till the 天 I die. 人们 会 say, "There's no sunlight where I live." 和 I remind them 那 even on a 非常 overcast 天, there's a lot of photon 能量 coming 通过, 但 the long wavelength light is cut off. So they're still getting a lot of photons. I mean, compare how bright it is at 9:00 a.m. versus midnight the 夜间 之前.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Their sun is 那 they 可以't see the outline of the sun as an object is what they're referring to.

Glen Jeffery: Right. I think the 重要 point there is 那 long wavelength light gets scattered by 水. It gets absorbed 和 scattered by 水. So, on a winter's 天, 我们've got a cloud, 和 那 cloud contains 水.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: There 会 be an attenuation of the longer wavelength light. It won't be vast, 但 there 会 be an attenuation, 但 it 会 start coming at 你 in 不同的 angles. So when 你're walking on a sunny 天, 和 你're walking down the road, sun's in front of 你, 你 feel warm on 你的 chest when 你've got clothes on, 和 it's the longer wavelength light doing it 因为 it's relatively focused. On 那 winter's 天, 你're still getting a lot of long wavelength light, 但 it's coming at 你 in a lot of 不同的 angles, 和 it's slightly attenuated. So my argument, which is the new mantra of the lab to some extent, is get a dog, right? Get a dog 因为 你'll have to go out in daylight 二 或 三 times a 天.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 你'll get no argument 从 me. 你're making me 非常 happy, Glen. I love dogs. Listeners of 这 podcast 会 know I absolutely love dogs, 和 my last dog was an English bulldog, half English bulldog, half mastiff. So, the next 一 会 also be an English bulldog. A couple 更多 questions 因为 I know 人们 are curious 关于 long wavelength light-emitting devices 对于 their eyes 和 other 组织. 你 mentioned 那 一 subject did not respond, 和 if I'm not mistaken, 这些 effects, at least on the eyes, I don't know 关于 the other effects on 血液 sugar, et cetera, 但 on the eyes 和 visual function seem to be gated by age, right?

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： If I recall, 人们 younger than 40, 你 saw 更少 of an effect.

Glen Jeffery: Overall, statistically, 我们 saw 更少 of an effect. My youngest son responded 非常, 非常 strongly. 和 at the time, I think he was 关于 25. So, 你 have to look at a population 水平 to get 那. 但 okay, look, 这 all makes sense. Mitochondrial theory of aging means 那 我们 应该 have 更多 room to 改善 mitochondria in the elderly than the young. 但 我们 all age at 不同的 rates. 一 of the biggest problems 关于 doing experiments on humans as opposed to mice is 我们 all do radically 不同的 things. Some take 运动, some have 非常 good diets, some have poor diets. 和 mice sitting in 我们的 animal house, eating the same food, they're 非常, 非常 相似的 to 一 another. Everything is the same. So, 我们 have to accept 那 noise. 但 generally, when 你的 mitochondria are in a poor state, which is consistent 与 aging, yes, 我们've got 更多 room to lift them up 和 改善 their function.

安德鲁·休伯曼： What was the time of 天, so-called circadian effect, of 这?

Glen Jeffery: 非常 clear. Again, same in flies, mice, 和 humans. 你的 biggest effect is 总是 in the 早晨, 和 it's 总是 generally just 之前 perceived sunrise up until 关于 11 o'clock. 和 it's 非常, 非常 clear. 但 let's look at the backdrop to 这. 你的 mitochondria, they're not doing the same thing all the time. So, if 我们 did 这 experiment 对于 24 小时, looking at mitochondria. 和 if 你 look at what mitochondria are doing over 24 小时, it's shifting. It's not the same even over a 三-小时 period. It's shifting. 和 so the proteins 那 我们 have in 不同的 parts of mitochondria are changing in concentration radically. It's a 非常, 非常 active area. So if 你're doing 研究 on mitochondria, 和 你're not taking 进入 account the time of 天, 你 may have a problem. 但 the mornings are 非常, 非常 special. In the 早晨, there are lots of things changing in 你的 身体. 你的 激素 水平 are 非常, 非常 不同的. 你的 血液 sugars tend to be picking up. 你've been asleep. A predator may have been watching 你. 你 need to wake up, 和 你 need to be ready on the road. 你 可以't be like a lizard 那's got to wait 对于 the sun to rise 和 to get themselves 进入 a position where 你 可以 get 你的 体温 up. So the 早晨 is 非常 重要. 你're making 更多 ATP, 这 petrol 那 mitochondria make in the 早晨, than at any other time. Now, I 可以 改善 function across a wide range of issues in the 早晨. I 可以't do it 非常 easily in the 下午. 和 I think 这 comes 从 a 非常 myopic point of view, which is 我们 think 关于 mitochondria purely as things 那 make 能量. They do lots of other things. 和 my interpretation is 那 in the 下午, well, the standard lab joke is they're doing the ironing. They're doing other things 那, as organelles, they need to do.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Interesting. Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: They are over a period of a 天, they're making contact 与 other organelles in the cell, particularly something called the endoplasmic reticulum. They're junctioning 与 那. 我们've got such a limited view of what they do. I was surprised to find 那 a mitochondria at nine o'clock in the 早晨 was not a mitochondria at four o'clock in the 下午. 那 poses some 非常 serious problems 关于 the interpretation of 我们的 数据 if 人们 are doing things at 不同的 times of 天.

安德鲁·休伯曼： So, if somebody wants to 改善 their vision 与 long-wavelength light exposure, maybe 我们 可以 just give them a rough contour of what 这 会 look like. A long wavelength of 670, 和 greater, emitting flashlight torch at a comfortable distance 从 the eye so it could be 三 inches, six inches, a foot, depending on how bright it is. 但 if I were going to run the experiment, I'd probably want to bring it 关于 as close as 人们 felt like they wanted to close their eyes, 但 then move it back just a little bit, just below the threshold of kind of, I don't want to say discomfort, 但 where it's just too bright. 和 then 你're saying it doesn't matter if their eyelids are closed 或 open, 你 give it 三 分钟, five 分钟 of exposure once every five 天 或 so. 和 is 那 going to be sufficient?

Glen Jeffery: There is the difference between something 那 has an effect 和 then the efficiency of 那 effect.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: So, if 你 take a 670 nanometer light source 和 你 do exactly 那, 你 会 have an effect.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: Now, as 我们're going forward, certainly 我们're finding the 能量 at which 你 give 那 wavelength is dropping 和 dropping 和 dropping 和 still effective.

安德鲁·休伯曼： So, 你 don't need a 非常 bright light?

Glen Jeffery: No. No, 你 don't. The original experiments, they used watts. They measured it in watts, not lux. Lux is not 非常 meaningful to 这 situation 因为 那's adjusted 对于 the human eye. 我们 want to know what was the 能量 那 the cell experienced.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: So, 人们 started off at, say, 40 milliwatts per centimeter squared, 和 I looked at 那 和 I thought, "Crikey."

安德鲁·休伯曼： 那's bright.

Glen Jeffery: 那's bright.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 那's 非常 bright.

Glen Jeffery: Big 之后 effect.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Yeah, 那's going to make someone wince. Yeah.

Glen Jeffery: It is. So, then 我们 got ourselves down to what 我们 do in the lab now generally, which is 大约 eight, which is 非常 comfortable, has the same effect.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 但 then 我们 had someone in the lab do an experiment, 和 我们 had the flashlights 那 had batteries in them. She got a lovely effect, 和 我们 found out the batteries had been run down, 和 she was getting an effect close at 一 milliwatt per centimeter squared. 那 is low.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 那's dim red light.

Glen Jeffery: 那 is low.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Okay. So, it sounds like 一 可以 use dim to moderately bright red light 那's comfortable. I say red, 但 I mean long-wavelength light 那's comfortable 和 可能 get the effect.

Glen Jeffery: Well, yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Sounds like the effect 可以 occur at any age, 但 it's going to be 更多 pronounced in 人们 那 have experienced some loss of vision 因为 of age, which everybody does.

Glen Jeffery: Yes.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 你've also looked at 这 in the context of macular degeneration, which is a 非常 common form of blinding, 和 尤其是 in 人们 as they get older. What were the 结果 in terms of rescuing vision in 人们 与 macular degeneration?

Glen Jeffery: Okay. So, macular degeneration is when, 你 could put it crudely, 那 the center of 你的 retina 那 你're using 对于 reading, degenerates, 和 你 could say it's part of an aging process. If I get 你 all to live to 50, so if I get 你 all to live to a 100 years, probably 20% of 你 会 have macular degeneration. Remember, the retina's a sports car, it burns out. So, I had a 非常 significant failure in a clinical trial 因为 我们 took a whole group of patients, who had macular degeneration, 我们 treated them 与 red light, 和 我们 treated their part... 更多 women have macular degeneration than men. 我们 took their husbands as the control 受试者. 和 to a 首先 approximation, 我们 got absolutely no effect whatsoever. 这 is kind of a point where 人们 working 与 Glen are losing enthusiasm. 但 lo 和 behold, their husbands, their vision... They didn't have macular degeneration, 但 their vision was improving enormously, particularly the way in which they could deal 与 darkness. So, 我们 stomped 大约 over 这. Something was wrong. 和 我们 found 那 when 我们 looked back at it, 我们 found 那 the 受试者 那 我们 were dealing 与, the patients, their disease had reached a certain point. It had gone beyond a certain point. Now, when 那 研究 was replicated by someone who thought 关于 it a bit 更多 than me, an ophthalmologist called Ben Burton in the UK, he got a great result. He started to get a 确实 good result. 和 when 你 talk to 人们 关于 red light, 和 I talk to 人们, I talk to Parkinson's societies, I talk to various groups, 和 I talk to the researchers, 和 there is 一 thing 那's 非常 clear, is 那 red light 可以 impact on aging, it 可以 impact on disease, 但 it 可以't do it if 那 disease has 确实 got its teeth 进入 你.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: Right? So, where 我们 need to get 进入 situations is early on in disease. So, 我们 thought 非常 much at 一 point 关于 rheumatism, rheumatoid arthritis.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Yeah, 非常 common autoimmune condition. Yeah.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. 和, 我们 had absolutely zero effect, 但 all the 受试者 我们 dealt 与 already had hands 那 were quite twisted. It wasn't 人们 coming in saying, "I've got 这 ache in my hand," which is where 我们 应该 have intervened. So, early intervention is absolutely critical. 我们 don't have to give high energies. 我们 don't have to give long exposures. 我们 可以 改善 situations, 但 where 我们 need to put 我们的 effort is the efficacy of how 我们 改善 things. If I 可以 改善 something 20%, well, 那's great 对于 那 person, 但 可以 我们 改善 it 80%?

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 和 那's all 关于 wavelengths. It's all 关于 energies. It's all 关于 us thinking a little bit 更多 carefully 之前 我们 set up the experiment.

安德鲁·休伯曼： It also makes me think 那 even though long-wavelength light 可以 penetrate the 身体 和 it scatters, like 对于 instance, the shining of light on a four-by-six inch rectangle on the back impact 血液 glucose regulation everywhere.

Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Shining long-wavelength light 进入 the eyes 改善了 presumably mitochondrial function in order to 增加 the visual detection ability, 和 on 和 on. Presumably, the 组织 那 你 专注 the light on, if it's a focused light, is going to derive the greatest benefit, right? 或 at least the most opportunity 对于 mitochondrial change. Then there 会 be 这些 systemic effects. 那些 mitochondria are talking to other mitochondria. I mean, I'm fascinated by how mitochondria are perhaps transported between cells 和 大约 the 身体. There's not even a cottage industry anymore. I think a lot of biologists are thinking 关于 这 seriously.

Glen Jeffery: Mm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 但 let's say I want to 改善 the mitochondrial function in my gallbladder, 应该 I shine the red light on my gallbladder? It stands to reason 那 the answer 会 be yes.

Glen Jeffery: I think the answer is yes. The issue is how quickly the effect takes place in distal 和 proximal 组织.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: So, if 你 shine the light on 你的 kneecap, something 会 probably happen within 一 to 二 小时.

安德鲁·休伯曼： At the kneecap?

Glen Jeffery: At the kneecap.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Right. Right, right.

Glen Jeffery: 但 then if 你're examining the response of 那 on 你的 hand, it's 24 小时 later.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: Right? So, the message has to get out 和 things have to... The story has to spread. 和 the spreading of the story, the spreading... 那's an intense kind of area of activity. What is the signal? Where is it coming 从? What is the signal?

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 和 I think 我们 poked 我们的 finger at 那 slightly 因为 我们 found 那 cytokine expression in the serum changed a lot.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 炎症性的 cytokines are going down?

Glen Jeffery: No. 增加 in cytokine expression at low 水平 is protective.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Okay.

Glen Jeffery: Right? So, what it's saying to the 身体 is, "Brace yourself, something's coming."

安德鲁·休伯曼： Sure. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 免疫系统 is getting mobilized.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Yeah.

Glen Jeffery: So, 那 was 非常, 非常 clear. So, in animals 那 had improvements in physiology also had changes in cytokine expression.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 和 I looked at 那 和 I thought, "Is 那 the real reason, 或 is 这 a secondary, third 或 fourth 水平 effect?" Now, there's some stunning stuff 那 I'm waiting to come out 从 Westminster University in the UK, being done by a great scientist, Ify, 和 what she's showing is a means of communication 那 我们 are 非常 确实 rather unaware of, which is 这些 microvesicles 那 go 大约 the 身体, go 大约 the serum, 和 这些 microvesicles carry cargos. Now, they carry all 不同的 sorts of cargos, 和 人们 have played 与 them a little bit in terms of changes in the gut microbiome. How does 那 affect the whole 身体? They've been talking 关于 microvesicles, 和 she's showing 那 microvesicle concentration is changing quite significantly 与... In fact, what 我们 did 与 her was 我们 didn't give her a red light. 我们 gave her an LED light where 我们 changed the LEDs in there to put some long wavelength elements in it. So, the communication 大约 the 身体, what is doing... 我们've got to break 那 一.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: It's probably not 一 thing. Again, scientists 总是 think 关于 一 thing. It's a complex pattern. When I looked at the changes in cytokine expression, my 首先 reaction was, "I need a mathematician sitting next to me." All 这些 things are changing in a complex manner, 和 I'm only looking at 50 of them, 和 there's probably over 300, so I could be missing the point. 但 communication... 和 你're right, mitochondria, 你 可以 see cells come along to a sick cell, 和 they join together, 和 the mitochondria is pushed in to the sick cell. How amazing.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 我们'd have 从不 thought 关于 那.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 你的 mitochondria are ill. I'm going to come along, 和 I'm going to give 你 some fresh mitochondria.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm. They, the mitochondria, are amazing, 和 it's amazing how little 我们 确实 understand 关于 how they work, 和 yet what 我们 do understand points to how spectacularly 重要 they are 对于 能量, longevity, 和 as 你 pointed out, how malleable they are.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 it all makes sense in the evolutionary context of 水 和 the absorption of red light. Another way 那's kind of fun to illustrate 这 red light absorption by 水 thing is if anyone ever goes snorkeling on a tropical reef, 你'll notice 那 in the 首先 10 feet of 水 从 the surface down, 你 可以 see beautiful oranges 和 reds.

Glen Jeffery: Mm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 then if 你 go deeper, 那些 seem to disappear. They haven't disappeared. It's just 那 the red light isn't penetrating 那 far.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Right? It gets absorbed.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Now, if 你 bring a flashlight down 与 你, as 夜间 divers do, 或 even 天 divers 会 do 那 sometimes in order to see 那些, 那些 red fish are still there deeper. 但 it disappears to 你.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah, yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： So, it's 非常 interesting. I'd like to take a quick break 和 acknowledge 一 of 我们的 sponsors, Function. Last year, I became a Function member 之后 searching 对于 the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. Function provides over 一 hundred advanced lab tests 那 give 你 a key snapshot of 你的 entire bodily health. 这 snapshot offers 你 与 insights on 你的 心脏 health, 激素 health, 免疫 functioning, nutrient 水平, 和 much 更多. They've also recently added tests 对于 toxins such as BPA exposure 从 harmful plastics 和 tests 对于 PFAS, 或 forever chemicals. Function not only provides testing of over a hundred biomarkers key to 你的 physical 和 心理健康, 但 it also analyzes 这些 结果 和 provides insights 从 top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas. 对于 example, in 一 of my 首先 tests 与 Function, I learned 那 I had elevated 水平 of mercury in my 血液. Function not only helped me detect 那 但 offered insights 进入 how best to 减少 my mercury 水平, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat 更多 leafy greens 和 supplementing 与 NAC, N-Acetylcysteine, both of which 可以 support glutathione production 和 detoxification. 和 I 应该 say, by taking a 秒 Function test, 那 approach worked. Comprehensive 血液 testing is vitally 重要. There are so many things related to 你的 mental 和 身体健康 那 可以 only be detected in a 血液 test. The problem is 血液 testing has 总是 been 非常 expensive 和 complicated. In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity 和 at the 水平 of cost. It is 非常 affordable. As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, 和 I'm thrilled 那 they're sponsoring the podcast. If 你'd like to try Function, 你 可以 go to functionhealth.com/huberman. Function currently has a wait list of over 2,50,000 人们, 但 they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners. Again, 那's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function. I'd like to talk a little bit 关于 the other end of the wavelength spectrum, short-wavelength light. 和 here I'd like to move to artificial lighting, 和 point to what I think is a 非常 serious concern. I know it 可能 seem a little bit extreme, 但 I am 非常 concerned 关于 the fact 那 人们 are exposed to so much short wavelength, what's commonly referred to as blue light, 但 I don't think 那 确实 captures it 因为 人们 hear the words, "Blue Light," 和 they think, oh, if a light source appears blue, then 那 可能 be messing 与 my melatonin at 夜间, 和 可能 be messing 与 my mitochondria even. 但 it's the white light coming 从 LED sources, which are basically what 我们 use as lighting sources nowadays, 那, yes, they contain blue light, 但 they also contain violet light 和 stuff 那 doesn't appear blue 因为 你've got the other wavelengths in there. In other words, white light coming 从 LEDs is 非常 short wavelength enriched. To me, 那's a problem if short-wavelength light is causing dysfunction of mitochondria, 和 I do believe 那's the case, unless it's balanced by the longer wavelengths.

Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 at the same time, like anything, it 可以 be remedied if 我们 do the right thing. So, could 你 illustrate 对于 us what happened over the last 30 years 或 so in most every country as 我们 moved 从... Well, actually, let's take it further back. Let's go 从 candlelight 和 firelight to incandescent bulbs. Let's also talk 关于 halogen bulbs, 和 now LED bulbs. I know 人们 like to 专注 on screens, 但 我们'll set aside screens 对于 the moment.

Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Let's talk 关于 indoor lighting.

Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 因为 I am 非常 concerned 关于 the amount of short-wavelength light 那 人们 are exposed to nowadays, 尤其是 kids, 尤其是 given what 你 told us 关于 血液 glucose regulation. What's known 关于 这?

Glen Jeffery: Okay, there's a group of us shuffling 大约 corridors, all mumbling to 一 another saying, "How big a stink is 这?" 和 some 人们 are... I reviewed a document 那 was sent to the European Commission last 周 just 之前 I came over here 从 a 非常 balanced, Dutch lighting engineer when he wrote to the European Commission saying, "我们've got to rethink 这." 和 so, the group of us 那 are shuffling 大约, some of them are saying 这 is an issue on the same 水平 as asbestos. 这 is a public health issue, 和 it's big. 和 I think it's 一 of the reasons why I'm 确实 happy to come here 和 talk 因为 it's time to talk, right? 我们've got enough 数据. So, LEDs came in, 和 人们 won the Nobel Prize 对于 这, 非常 rightly at the time, 因为 they save a lot of 能量. They are 非常 能量 efficient 因为 they do not produce on the whole light 那 我们 do not see. So, the effort is all in what 我们 see. Now, as 你 pointed out, the LED has got a big blue spike in it, 尽管 我们 tend not to see 那, 和 那 is even true of warm LEDs, 和 there is no red. Remember? So, 我们're talking 关于 billions of years of evolution under broad-spectrum sunlight. When 我们 had fires, 那 was pretty much the same. A fire is pretty much broad spectrum, candles pretty much broad spectrum. So, nothing 确实 changed in 我们的 world until 大约 2000. As 我们 get to 2005, 我们're starting to find 那 the incandescent lights 与 their loads of infrared start being pushed off the market.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 那 was purely 因为 they take 更多 能量.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Electric bills are higher, 和 they don't last as long.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah, exactly.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Okay.

Glen Jeffery: So, when 我们 use LEDs, the light found in LEDs when 我们 use them, certainly 我们 use them on the retina looking at mice, 我们 可以 watch the mitochondria gently go downhill. They're far 更少 responsive. Their membrane potentials are coming down. The mitochondria are not breathing 非常 well. 我们 可以 watch 那 in real time.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Under LED lighting.

Glen Jeffery: Under LED lighting at the same 能量 水平 那 我们 会 find in a domestic 或 a commercial environment.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 那's 非常 concerning to me.

Glen Jeffery: It is. It was 从不 picked up. Then also, if 你 do experiments, say 对于 instance, on flies, flies don't live as long under blue light, right? Their mitochondria, again, decline quite markedly. 你 produce 更少 ATP. If 你 look at mice, 你 find mice start putting on a lot of weight. They start putting on a lot of weight 因为 their mitochondria are not taking 那 glucose out, 和 it's being deposited as fat. Their control of their 血液 glucose, not surprisingly, becomes unbalanced, 和 they start to behave slightly peculiarly in open field situations. Now, 你 和 I know 那 when 你 put a mouse in an open field situation, it's a measure of how confident it feels. So, it runs 大约 the edge at 首先 until it feels happy, 和 then it wanders 大约 the middle 和 all the rest of it. Mice under LED lighting do not make 那 transition 从 working 大约 the edge 和 coming 进入 the center, 和 那 is possibly consistent 与 the notion they have low-水平 infection, chronic infection. 那's all published. Now, there's some stunning 数据 coming out of another lab, it 会 come out early next year, showing 那 这些 same mice have fatty livers. Again, not 确实 desperately surprising.

安德鲁·休伯曼： So, same food chow as their full-spectrum light counterparts, 但 they're under LED lighting, 和 they've got fatty livers.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. They've got fatty liver. 但 there's a clear systemic effect here 因为 their livers are smaller, their kidneys are smaller, 和 their hearts are slightly smaller. 与 the liver problems, 我们 get a raise in what 我们'll call liver distress signals, proteins coming round, 一's called ALT, which tells 你 你的 liver is not happy at all. Interestingly, where do 你 also find vast numbers of mitochondria? 你 find them in sperm. So, there is a greater concentration of sperm 与 abnormal swimming capacity 和 abnormal morphology in 那些 mice, 和 the testicles have abnormal morphologies. Now, 这些 are animals 那 are 确实 running towards the end of their life, okay? 但 again, let's put all 这些 things together. 这 is clearly telling us 那 it's not just the LED, it's the LED range, which is 420 to 440. It's a 具体的 range 那 the mitochondria absorb, 和 it's the absence of the red light to counter balance 那.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Got it. So, 这 is so 重要 对于 人们 to hear, 和 I just want to reiterate something 你 said earlier. 你 said 那, at least to 你的 心智, 这 exposure to excessive amounts of short-wavelength light, 因为 of LEDs, is possibly as serious as asbestos exposure in terms of its detrimental effects to human biology. Possibly.

Glen Jeffery: Possibly. 那's what 我们're shuffling 大约 saying, getting confident 关于 it. I'd point out another issue. Now, 你的 colleagues, some are a bit 更多 excitable than others. Some of them are 非常 conservative 和 sit there...

安德鲁·休伯曼： It depends on how much red light they're getting under.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Bad joke, I know.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah, bad joke.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Yeah.

Glen Jeffery: Let's look at growth in lifespan in Western Europe. Chunks up, chunks up, chunk, chunk, chunk, chunk. Slowly, 你 know, 我们're living slightly longer on average 一 year than the next. 和 确实 你 could draw a line along 那 curve. Yeah, it's relatively straight. 我们 get a dent in the curve 和 the tendency towards asymptote, which means flattening out, 之后 关于 2010. Now, 那 可以 be corrected 对于 COVID. Something is turning 那 down. Now, I'm not going to say LEDs are shortening the lifespan, 但 I've got a number of colleagues 大约 me who are saying, "你 need to take 这 一 进入 account."

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm. 和 你 did say earlier 那 amount of sunlight exposure, which includes balanced wavelengths of short, medium, 和 long wavelengths, is associated 与 longer life, 更少 all-cause mortality.

Glen Jeffery: Yes, definitely.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 那 brings me to the other point 那 你 made, so I'm aware 那 I'm just restating what 你 said. 但 it's 确实 hovering in my 心智 as so 重要 那 I think 人们 need to hear it again, which is it may not be 那 short-wavelength light is detrimental to mitochondria, per se. It's 那 in the absence of balanced light, 你're taking whatever mechanisms 那 short-wavelength light have on mitochondria, 和 你're tipping the seesaw in 那 direction, 和 the other side of the seesaw 会 be weighted by long-wavelength light. So, presumably, 因为 mitochondria evolved under short, medium, 和 long-wavelength light, I mean, let's be fair, it's not like they evolved under red torches, as 你 call them, right?

Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： The balance between 这些 wavelengths is 确实 what's key, 和 LEDs are just shifting the balance 非常 heavily to short wavelengths. So, I realize 那 我们're framing long wavelengths as great 和 short wavelengths as bad, 但 like so many things in biology, it seems 那 it may just be the balance 那's 重要, 和 那 long wavelengths 可以 have 这 kind of protective effect, to some extent. 但 the way I'm thinking 关于 it is 那 LEDs may be problematic 因为 of just how heavily they weigh 一 side of the mechanism. Is 那...

Glen Jeffery: I think 你've got it in 一 there. It's a balance.

安德鲁·休伯曼： As opposed to, being quote-unquote, "Toxic," right? It 会 be like saying, 我们 need all 三 macronutrients. I suppose 你 could live 没有 carbohydrates, 但 fats, proteins, 和 carbohydrates, 和 人们 会 try 和 demonize any 一 of 那些 depending on who they are.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah, yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 但 most cultures, most humans evolved in the context of eating some amount of all 三 of 那些 macronutrients, maybe to varying degrees, 不同的 seasons, et cetera. So, 你 可以't just say 那 一 is bad, 你 know? Fats are bad, proteins are bad, carbohydrates are bad. It's the weighting of them 那's going to influence biology differently. It seems like the same thing 会 hold 对于 light. So, under... So, let's frame 这 in 人们's minds. Under typical lighting conditions 与 LEDs. So, if I go buy a LED light, light bulb, 和 it doesn't say sunlight mimicking 或 full spectrum, how little long-wavelength light is there in 那 bulb compared to sunlight, 和 how much short-wavelength light is there compared to sunlight? 和 not in terms of intensity, 因为 obviously the sun is generally far 更多 intense than any bulb, 但 in terms of the distribution of wavelengths. What sort of situation are 我们 creating 与 那些 bulbs?

Glen Jeffery: Okay. So, 首先 of all, 你 know, the way 你've described it is absolutely the way I think 关于 it, 和 I think all 我们的 colleagues. It's balance. It's balance. 你 应该 be 非常 careful 关于 what 你 read on an LED box 因为 人们 are saying sun-like, right?

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: Now, I've 从不 found, commercially, an LED 那 says 那 那's 确实 gone anything significantly beyond 700.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: Right? So, it doesn't matter what they're telling 你, I'm exceedingly doubtful 那 commercially anyone has got anything 那 does 那.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 因为 the only way 你 could do 那 is to have a vast array of LEDs in a single device. So, 你 know, have an LED at 670, an LED at 700, an LED at... All the way up to over a 1000. It's not realistic 因为 it's expensive 和 it draws lots of 能量.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 和 the other thing is 那 我们 now have found 那 the mitochondria knows 那 it's a compressed load of LEDs, 因为 if 你 put 人们 under a compressed series of LEDs like 那, 你 don't get the same response 或 the same positive effect as 你 do if 你 put them under an incandescent light where the spectrum is totally smooth.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: There's no ups 和 downs at the top of them. It's totally smooth. Now, how a mitochondria does 那 is completely 和 utterly beyond me.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 但 it makes sense. The mitochondria evolved under sunlight.

Glen Jeffery: Under sunlight, yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 sunlight is a smooth, when 你 say smooth, as opposed to bumps, what Glen is referring to is, short wavelengths leading, 你 said it's a continuum leading up to long wavelengths.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah, it's a continuum.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Sunlight has 那. 我们'll talk 关于 incandescents in a moment. 和 这些 LEDs have 这些 spikes of short, medium, 和 longish wavelength light, 但 they're not actually mimicking sunlight.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. No. 和 isn't it amazing 那 mitochondria 可以 sort 那 一 out?

安德鲁·休伯曼： I think it's 确实 cool.

Glen Jeffery: 和 just makes me feel, by the time it's all over 对于 me, I'll have got 一 bite at 这 apple, 但 there's a load 更多 there 那 I think 我们're going to find out. They're doing things 那 are just inconceivable at the moment.

安德鲁·休伯曼： What 关于 incandescent bulbs 和 fire? I mean, aside 从 being concerned 那 人们 are going to burn their apartments 和 homes down if they use candlelight 或 firelight at 夜间, how healthy is candlelight?

Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： How healthy is incandescent light 与 respect to the mitochondria?

Glen Jeffery: So, look, well, I think 我们're going to leave candlelight out of it, 因为 to get enough light out of a candle, 我们're going to have to have copious amounts of candles.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 那's where 人们 burn down structures.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah, yeah. 和, I noticed here in California 人们 have got lots of wooden houses. Let's stay away 从 那 一.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Got a lot of what?

Glen Jeffery: Wooden houses.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Well, 我们 had a serious fire issue 这 非常 area.

Glen Jeffery: Yes, I know.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I mean, as 你're coming in the Pacific Coast Highway, 你 may have noticed.

Glen Jeffery: 你 可以 see it.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 那 used to be covered 与 homes. I mean, it was a devastating fire, yeah.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. To a 首先 approximation, the spectrum of light 那 你 get 从 an incandescent light bulb is highly 相似的 to solar light, right? So, it covers almost the same range. It's a smooth function. 我们 drift gently 从 short wavelengths 进入 medium wavelengths 进入 long wavelengths. So, in evolution, 我们 were wandering 大约 in sunlight. 我们 then made the transition to fires producing the same light, 和 那's quite interesting. Where do 我们 use fires? 我们 use fires as 我们 move further north, as 我们 come out of Africa, as 我们 move 进入... I mean, why did 人们... It's beyond me, having come 对于 这 interview 从 northern Europe in winter, it's beyond me as to why they ever did 那 因为 it's grim. 但 they had a light source 那 was 非常 solar-like. 和 so, there was no issue there, I don't think. So, it's 那 确实 非常 dramatic change 那 happens in the early 2000s. 你的 身体 has 从不 experienced such confined, limited spectrum of light, 从不 experienced it 之前. 和 一 of the other issues 那 relates particularly to devices 那 人们 may use to 增加 the amount of long-wavelength light they get, some of 这些 devices are lasers. No living entity has ever seen monochromatic light 之前. It is a totally alien thing to life.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Yeah, 但 please folks, do not shine lasers 进入 你的 eyes.

Glen Jeffery: No. Do not.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 in fact, don't shine lasers on 你的 皮肤. The only 人们 who 应该 be shining lasers on bodies are trained medical professionals 对于 which there's an 重要 medical procedure being done. I'm going to encourage 你 to be willing to answer 这 even though I realize it's a bit of an uncomfortable space 对于 你. 对于 artificial long wavelength light-generating devices, like the red, near infrared, 和 infrared, some of 这些 are fairly high power. There are a growing number of papers, certainly in dermatology 和 pain relief.

Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I mean, not a ton of papers, 但 actually it was a cover of what I was told was 一 of the 更多 prestigious dermatology journals. It's starting to evaluate what 我们 call photobiomodulation 与 long-wavelength light.

Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： When 你 look at 那些 devices, do 你 think 那 exposure to 那些 可以 offset the negative effects of LED lighting in a meaningful way?

Glen Jeffery: 首先 of all, I think the majority of them do no harm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: I suspect 那 the majority of them have a positive impact. 但 我们've opened up a lot of 那些 devices, 和 they're pretty poor.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Poor in terms of the amount of 能量?

Glen Jeffery: Poor in terms of how they're put together, 首先 of all. The value of the components.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Okay, got it.

Glen Jeffery: When 你 get an LED, an LED's like buying a car. 你 可以 buy a bad car 或 你 可以 buy a 非常 good car. A lot of the LEDs are not what they say they are, certainly when it comes to things like 670 nanometers, which is popular. They're hard to get, so they're not what they say they are. 和 非常 经常 they're not what they say they are a year down the road when they've been on 和 off 对于 a long period of time.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Well, I think there's a range of qualities, as well. Some are medical grade, some are not.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Some are used actively by medical clinics, some are not. I hear 你. I think it's like any industry associated 与 health 和 wellness, as it's called. I think there's a range. So, in terms of prescriptives as it relates to indoor lighting, let's set aside long-wavelength light emitting devices, incandescent sound like the perfect solution. 但 可以 I still buy incandescent bulbs?

Glen Jeffery: Not in North America. 你 可以't buy classic incandescents.

安德鲁·休伯曼： They're gone?

Glen Jeffery: Yeah, I think I signed a petition to try 和 keep them 关于 six months ago, 和 I don't know what the status of it is now. 你 应该 still be able to get halogen bulbs, which are almost identical to incandescent. They're a type of incandescent.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 和 the point here is 那 你 可以't have LED lights in ovens 因为 they melt, okay? So, generally, incandescents are retained 对于 a few special reasons. The importance of 这些 I think is highlighted by something 那 应该 come out just 之前 Christmas, 一 of 我们的 研究, where at University College London, 我们 have some buildings 没有 windows. 和 they've got some pretty harsh LED lighting in them. 和 what 我们 did last year, 与 那些 is 我们 went in there 和 我们 measured all the 人们, the staff in there, 我们 measured their ability to detect color. Then 我们 gave them a whole series of desk lamps, 40-watt incandescent desk lamps, 和 我们 said, "你 don't have to look at 这. Just move 大约." 你 know, if 那's on 你的 desk... 但 a lot of them were architectural model makers. So, they'd be sitting at their desk 对于 a little bit of the time, then they'd be going off gluing 二 bits of wood together.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Where's the light directed 对于 这些 人们?

Glen Jeffery: Just directed down.

安德鲁·休伯曼： It's directed down, not at their eyes.

Glen Jeffery: No, no.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Okay.

Glen Jeffery: It's supplementing their whole environment. So, 我们 walked away 从 那, 和 我们 left them... I think 我们 left them 对于 二 周. 和 我们 came back, 和 我们 measured their color perception again. 和 我们 got so much better an effect than 我们 ever got 与 reduced-spectrum long-wavelength LEDs. It was... Well, I may just go back 和 do all the analysis again. I was 确实 surprised. So, 与 the LEDs, what 你 tend to do is, the long-wavelength ones, 你 改善 你的 perception of blue a bit 更多 than 你的 perception of red, 和 这 is a bit of a complex story, 和 it's all over in five 天. 这些 characters, their perception of blue 和 red, both 改善了 to the same extent, 和 it was 非常 significant. 和 then 我们 took the bulbs away, 和 我们 thought, "Well, 我们'll come back six 天 later, 和 我们'll see where they are." 和 我们 came back. They were exactly the same. Their perception hadn't declined.

安德鲁·休伯曼： The improvement was maintained.

Glen Jeffery: The improvement was maintained.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 我们 went back a month later. The improvement was maintained. 我们 went back a month later. The improvement was maintained.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Hmm.

Glen Jeffery: So I'm tracing all 这些 人们, what their lives are like, 和 the rest of it. It was in November, December, so they weren't getting much daylight. They were rather... Yeah. Well, they were in a situation 那 all 人们 are in northern Europe. 和 then 我们 had a problem. It was Christmas. Experiment ended. 但 let's think 关于 这. 这些 人们 not only had 更多 significant improvement than they 会 get 与 red light, the effect lasted much longer. Now, 一 of the things 那 makes me think now, I go back, 和 I think 关于 我们的 experimental 结果. Why did I get such good experimental 结果 in whatever it was I was doing? Is it simply 因为 I'm drawing my 受试者 从 a population of human beings who are living under LED lights? If I went 和 did 那些 same experiments on a group of farm assistants, 或 人们 who are doing surveying of the countryside, 会 I get the same effect? I think 那 in the built environment, 我们 are suffering 从 a suppression of 我们的 physiology. I have to be careful here 关于 not going over the top. 但 我们're suffering 从 a suppression of 我们的 physiology via mitochondria, 那 is just being produced by the built environment. 和 a point 那 I 确实 need to make here, 因为 I now spend a lot of time talking to architects. I spend 更多 time talking to architects than I do talking to ophthalmologists 或 medics. 你 put a building up, invariably, the majority of the phases of 那 building 会 go over budget. It's rare 对于 a building to come in under budget. The last thing to go 进入 a building is the lighting. It is the 非常 last. It goes in 之后 the glass. Okay? Where do 你 take 你的 cut on 你的 overexpenditure? 你 take 你的 cut on the lighting. 你 buy the cheapest LEDs 你 可以, 和 the cheapest LEDs have got the restricted spectrum. 和 to add insult to injury on 这, to retain thermal regulation of the building, all commercial buildings 和 all big buildings, now, not domestic ones, 会 invariably have infrared blocking glass. So 你 get the 首先 hit on the fact 那 你的 LEDs are pretty awful, undermining 你的 mitochondria. The 秒 is, 你're isolated 从 the visual world outside by the infrared blocking glass. 这 is a double hit, 和 I think 那 double hit is quite significant. Now, 我们 have had a major, probably 一 of the world's largest architects firms 那 have just won a 非常 big contract in the USA 对于 a hospital, walk 通过 the door 和 say, "What is 这 关于 healthy lighting?" 和 I know they're putting their money on the table on 这 一, 因为 they have a vast area where all the architects sit. It's like an aircraft hangar. 和 they're stripping out all the LEDs.

安德鲁·休伯曼： So, what I'm gathering is 那 if 人们 spend a lot of time outside, A: 那's a good thing.

Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： B: 你 probably don't need to supplement 你的 indoor lighting environment. LEDs 可能 even be fine 对于 那些 folks. 尽管 你 wouldn't recommend it. Doesn't sound like they need to, quote-unquote, "supplement" 与 incandescent 或 与 long-wavelength light exposure 从 a device. 对于 人们, which I think is most 人们 nowadays, who are under LED lighting, a significant portion of the 天, in a building 与 glass 那 filters the bright sunlight to control the 温度 和 make sure there isn't a lot of glaringly bright light coming in at certain phases of the 天, they certainly 应该 try 和 get outside.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 但 when they 可以't take their lunch outside, take a call outside, get outside.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Light clothing is going to be fine 因为 the long-wavelength light 会 pass 通过, as 你的 colleague discovery, literally go 通过 their 身体, scatter, et cetera. 但 they may choose to supplement 与 a halogen 或 incandescent, even just a table lamp 对于 a short period of time, now 和 again, 尤其是, it seems, in winter, 这 会 be beneficial.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 where I worry the most 关于 light environments as it relates to diminishing mitochondrial function is in kids who are staring at screens, not getting outside enough 因为 of screens, classrooms, et cetera. What do 我们 know 关于 screen light? 你 know, I, like many 人们, 会 dim down my screen in the 晚上 if I'm going to be on my computer. I do wear short-wavelength-blocking glasses; I wouldn't say 之后 sundown, 但 之后 dark, 确实 helps my transition to sleep 对于 obvious reasons.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I learned 那 人们's sensitivity to light, in terms of how it impacts sleep, varies quite a lot.

Glen Jeffery: Yes, it does.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Some 人们 可以 stare at blue light 和 fall asleep, no problem. Other 人们 do 那; they're waking up in the middle of the 夜间. I'm 非常 sensitive to it. 但 the 血液 glucose-elevating effects of short-wavelength light at 夜间 seem pretty ubiquitous. There's 这 研究, I don't know if 你're familiar 与 it. It was done, 和 it was published in the proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. They had 人们, I think it was kids actually, sleep under a 一-hundred-lux overhead light. So their eyes are closed. 一 hundred lux is 非常 dim.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 as compared to complete darkness, 或 it wasn't complete darkness, I think it was, like, a 一-to-ten lux lighting condition, 你 saw elevated 血液 早晨 glucose.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Which is not good, right? 那 reflects a cortisol 增加. So it's not just 关于 sleep, it's 关于 血液 glucose regulation, et cetera. So, I'm summarizing here quite a lot of things, 和 I'm speculating here 和 there as well. Do 你 think 人们 need to supplement 与 long-wavelength light if they're not getting outside enough, 或 they work in 一 of 这些 LED-rich environments?

Glen Jeffery: Okay, let's backtrack a little bit, particularly 关于 the kids 和 screens. So, myself 和 a load of my colleagues have sat 与 a blue screen staring at it all 天, 对于 天. 心智-bogglingly boring thing to do. It had almost no effect on it.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Oh, 你've done 那 experiment?

Glen Jeffery: 我们've done 那 experiment.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Oh, I thought 你 were just describing 你的 life.

Glen Jeffery: No, no.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Okay. Yeah, yeah.

Glen Jeffery: 和 I think the answer is 那 the blue in most of 那些 screens is actually rather long-wavelength blue.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: So it's blue, pushing 450 plus. So, it's not in 那 danger zone, which I regard as 420 to 440.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: I think it's outside it. 和 I know 我们 talked at 一 point to a major American computer manufacturer 关于 这 issue, 关于 the screen. So, I am not as worried 关于 那 as I thought I 会've been.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 但 there is a separate issue, 和 it's 一 那 the pediatric ophthalmologists are 非常 concerned 关于, 和 那 is particularly close work in kids. Close work combined 与 a lot of screen work 和 the issue of myopia.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Close work being, staring at something within a foot 或, 或 二?

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Yeah.

Glen Jeffery: 和 myopia. Now, 这 is a 非常 big issue in Asia, 和 in China.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 和 我们 know 那 the absence of long-wavelength light is a driver. My problem is, I 可以't work out why. Now, I 应该 fundamentally be a pragmatist 和 say, "If 我们 know it's a driver, then let's just supplement it."

安德鲁·休伯曼： When 你 say it's a driver, it's creating 这 problem.

Glen Jeffery: It is part of the thing 那's creating 这 problem.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: Now, myopia is a 确实 big issue 因为, okay, 我们 可以 control myopia by just giving 你 不同的 lenses, right? So, 你的 child 会 be able to read the text even though they've got myopia. The trouble is 那 when 那 child reaches 40 或 50, the retina has been stretched 因为 the eye has grown too long. 和 as the retina stretches, as 你 age, 和 你 lose cells, so the retina becomes a little 更少 cohesive, 你 get tears, 和 你 可以 get a form of macular degeneration.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Yikes.

Glen Jeffery: So, 这 is a major concern, particularly in China, 和 they've taken a number of steps to deal 与 it. 一 of which, 对于 instance, is in the classroom, they put a bar on the desk, so the kids 可以't actually sit too far forward to read the text.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Whoa.

Glen Jeffery: Right? So, to 增加 the distance. They've also got 进入 the red light, 但 part of the problem there is they've used lasers. So they've got a restriction in myopic development. 但 at the same time, when 你 go back 和 look at them, there are spots in the retina where the laser has affected.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Negatively.

Glen Jeffery: Negatively.

安德鲁·休伯曼： It is burning out pieces of retina.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. 但 你 know, 人们 come along, 和 they say, "Well, look, 我们 only used 10 milliwatts per centimeter squared." Same as an LED. The thing 那 they don't get is 那 laser light scatters in a 非常 不同的 way 从 LEDs. LED light scatters uniformly.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Why do 你 think they use lasers?

Glen Jeffery: 因为 it sounds good. 我们're using light. 我们're doing something 更多 powerful. 那's a problem 大约 这 whole industry. 我们're doing powerful things.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Hmm.

Glen Jeffery: Now, laser light does not scatter evenly when it hits 组织. It forms something called caustics. 和 caustics are the sorts of things 你 see, sometimes, on a shallow lake where it's rippling, 和 你 get bright spots, 和 你 get dark spots. 那些 bright spots are what 你 get in laser light, 这些 caustics. So the 能量 is tripling 或 quadrupling in certain areas. So, I mean, I didn't know what a caustic was until I started to talk to physicists. Reiterate on 你, 从不 ever use a laser, unless there is a profound medical reason 对于 doing so. 和 certainly, myopia, which is going to be a ticking time bomb. No current politician is particularly concerned, 因为 it's going to be another person's problem in the future. So, windows in classes, 非常 重要.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 not tinted windows.

Glen Jeffery: Not tinted windows. 我们're currently talking 关于 putting a few incandescent lights in. Schools generally are stretched 对于 money.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 和 their 首先 reaction is "这 is going to cost us a lot 更多." Well, the answer actually is to put a dimmer switch on the incandescent light bulb. Even though it appears dim to 你, still producing loads of infrared light 因为 it's getting warm. The other thing 那 我们've not touched on, which is, I think, 非常 重要 in the architectural world 和 the school world, is 那 all plant matter reflects infrared light. 你 grab a plant out here in California, where maybe it's 80 degrees, the leaf is not hot. Why does 那 happen? It's 因为 it reflects infrared light. Now, if 你 go up to a plant in brilliant sunlight 和 你 put 你的 measuring equipment on it, the light 那's being reflective is just a small reach away 从 what 我们 think of the smallest therapeutic dose could be. So, planting trees to reflect the infrared light 那 is available to 你 is 非常 重要. Architects are 确实 getting 那 一.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Does it have to be trees, 或 可以 it just be indoor plants, 和 having an incandescent sort, sometimes?

Glen Jeffery: Well, okay, have an incandescent source, 但 have also plants on the outside 那 are getting sunlight, 因为 they're going to bounce the infrared back to 你.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 一 of the physicists in 我们的 lab, Edward Barrett, has a fantastic infrared camera, 和 he goes 大约 taking infrared photographs. 和 我们 were in an office building, 和 there was some blackout blinds 或 非常 thick blinds, 和 when 我们 looked 通过 the infrared camera, there was a small fire at the bottom of 这些 curtains. I mean, just 确实 surprised. 和 then 我们 pulled back the curtain, 和 there was a row of plants.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 和 there is... The name completely escapes me. There is a city in the Midwest where the authorities planted something like 1,000 trees. 和 what they did was they measured 血液 markers, 那 were 血液 markers of 压力, including complement-related protein, which is a sign of systemic 炎症. 和 they planted 这些 trees, 和 they went back, I think 二 或 三 years later, 和 measured 这些 metrics, 和 they got a significant reduction. Now, 那 is interesting, right? So, my big question, 和 it's 一 那 I'm trying to get ethics to do now, is what happens to 你的 血液 as 你 pass 从 a concrete building? 你 sit in a concrete building 对于 five 小时. It's horrible. 你're getting no infrared light. 你've got infrared blocking windows. 你've got LEDs. What happens when I wheel 你 进入 a park? What happens when I wheel 你 进入 Woodland? 你 know 你 feel so much better. Everybody says, "I feel so much..." Well, if 你 feel better, something's happening. What is happening? So it's not only 关于 the light 那 我们 have in the built environment, it's 关于 the glass 那 我们 have in the built environment, 和 it's 关于 plant matter. Plant matter, 应该 我们 be planting plants, 对于 instance, on the north side of buildings, which are tall, 因为 they 会 hit the light 水平, 和 they have the capacity to reflect it back 通过, 进入 the building?

安德鲁·休伯曼： I 可以 tell 你've been spending a lot of time 与 architects. 和 there are a couple of things 那 are 确实 striking. 一, it's 非常 clear 那 as 我们 become 更多 和 更多 modern as a species, 我们're going to look 对于 更多 cost 和 能量-efficient ways to do things. LEDs are a good example of 那.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 I think LEDs have been 非常 beneficial across a number of 不同的 industries. 但 那, 你 know, as 我们 move away 从 agricultural living 对于 most 人们, nowadays, 人们 even 会 just have food delivered as opposed to going to restaurants.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 那's happening 更多 和 更多. 和 I think it's a required effort to bring the critical elements of the outside indoors.

Glen Jeffery: Yes.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 it sounds kind of crazy, 但 人们 会 运动 indoors. I try 和 运动 outside if I 可以, 但 I 可以't 总是 do 那. 但 我们're now talking 关于 bringing long-wavelength light indoors, 和 bringing balanced full-spectrum light indoors. 和 if it's as simple as bringing some plants, 你 know, putting plants 大约 a building, keeping the tinting off of windows, maybe I could see where 那 可能 cause some issues 与 regulating 温度 和 the downstream costs of 那, et cetera. 但, having some long-wavelength emitting sources, maybe it's an actual long-wavelength, AKA red light, somewhere near a plant 或 a series of plants in a...

Glen Jeffery: Hmm. Hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 因为 not everyone 可以 change their internal environment, their apartments, et cetera.

Glen Jeffery: No, no.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I must say, in the last, probably, 18 months, I've made some pretty serious efforts to get in front of a long-wavelength emitting device. My own personal experience is 那 by doing 那... 和 I do do it early in the 天, I do not use protective eye covering 因为 I'm comfortable 与 那些 wavelengths. I sometimes 会 close my eyes 对于 portions of it. 但 I must say, 和 I don't think 这 is a placebo, 但 who knows, I find 那 it produces a tangible 增加 in 能量 和 feelings of well-being, 对于 a substantial amount of time afterwards 对于 me. 但 那's on a backdrop of already doing a number of other things, including trying to get outside 对于 brief 20-分钟 或 even 10-分钟 walks, grab a little gulp of sunshine, as I call it. It's not 确实 a gulp. I think 那 the 更多 我们 可以 get outdoors, great, provided 我们 don't sunburn.

Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm. Yep.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 但 我们 need to start bringing certain elements of the outdoors 进入 classrooms 和 hospitals. I mean, there's 这 phenomenon, ICU psychosis, where 人们 don't have access to sunlight 和 昼夜节律 information. They're being woken up in the middle of the 夜间, 和 they're not psychotic, 和 they develop a transient psychosis 那 resolves when they leave the hospital.

Glen Jeffery: Hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I mean, I feel, as 你 可以 probably tell, 非常-非常 strongly 那 lighting is so critical 对于 immediate 和 long-term health. 和 I agree 与 你. I think 我们, not to sound catastrophic, 但 if 我们 don't, no pun intended, short-回路 这 excessive short-wavelength light issue, 那 我们 are going to see 更多 和 更多 metabolic dysfunction, 更多 和 更多 visual dysfunction, myopia.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 对于 人们 与 neurodegeneration 或 a genetic bias toward it, 或 你 know, maybe the occupational hazard-related bias toward it, 那 if they don't get the protective effects of long-wavelength light, I think it's going to be 确实 serious.

Glen Jeffery: Hmm. Yeah. I completely agree 与 你. 和 我们 weren't sticking 我们的 head above the parapet 三 或 four years ago, 但 我们 are now. 我们 think 这 is a significant public health problem. 我们've been approached by a few critical care units saying, "What 关于 changing 我们的 lighting?" I mean, the architects have taught me 一 或 二 things. So, they say cost to me, 因为 they're commercial. So, they say things like "Okay, well, if 那 gets 你的 patient out of intensive care unit 一 天 earlier, what does it save 你?"

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm.

Glen Jeffery: 与 一 group of architects, 我们've talked 关于 changing the lighting in a building 那's having major refurbs on it. 和 oh, 你 know, the owners are going, "Oh, 我们're doing... Do 我们 need 这?" Et cetera, et cetera. 和 the architect turned 大约 和 said, "How many 天 did 你 lose to sickness in 这 building last year?" 和, of course, they didn't know the answer, 但 it put them, 确实, on the spot. 但 the architect said, "你 应该 look at the larger economic model here, 和 那 includes the health, perceived health of the individual. 但 it may have beneficial effects 对于 你 in terms of 减少 costs."

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: I think they put their finger on 那, 确实, quite sharply.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Hmm. 对于 人们 那 are on a real budget, 和 like most of us, have to rely on LED lighting, hopefully they're dimming their lighting a bit in the 晚上, not relying so much on overhead lighting, trying to get their 昼夜节律 correct.

Glen Jeffery: Hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 in the daytime, getting outside, get their sunlight in the 早晨, et cetera. 和 they want to get some 更多 balanced 或 long-wavelength light, 和 they want to do it in the least expensive way 可能. Even though candlelight is not 非常 bright, I 会 recommend getting an odorless, 因为 我们're learning all 这 stuff 关于 the odors 从 candles. A, 你 know, an odorless, like a pure beeswax candle, provided it's safe, they 可以 put at their desk in the 晚上 或 maybe even on their nightstand, they 可以 have a candle while they read. Just getting a bit 更多 long-wavelength light. As 你 say, supplementing 与 long-wavelength light here 和 there. Maybe, while even they're on their phone 或 their tablet 之前 sleep.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I feel like 这些 things ought to make a meaningful difference over time. They're 非常 low-cost. Provided 你 don't burn 你的 structure down, they're safe. 和 even better, it sounds like it 会 be to get a hold of an incandescent 或 a halogen bulb. 但 I feel like 这 is something 那 almost anyone could do, 和 it seems 非常, 非常 healthy to do.

Glen Jeffery: Well, I am 100% behind the idea 那, firstly, 这 可以 change public health; 和 secondly, 那 it 应该 be done at almost zero-cost, 因为 那 is a potential. Okay? So, if 你 look at, say, a number of my colleagues, 和 这 includes myself, in the kitchen, I have got a halogen lamp. So, when I get up in the 早晨 和, 你 know, 你're spending 那 45 分钟 那 确实 应该 be 10 分钟, 但 你're faffing 大约, doing stuff, there's a halogen lamp there, on at the right time. It's not desperately bright, 但 it's there at a critical time 期间 the 天.

安德鲁·休伯曼： What color does it appear?

Glen Jeffery: Ordinary white light.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Okay. 但 it's full spectrum?

Glen Jeffery: 但 it's full... A proper halogen lamp is just a certain kind of incandescent 那 has potential, longer life, in terms of its shelf life, 因为 there are reasons 你 应该 keep it, reasons 你 应该 have it.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: 和 just do 那.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Great.

Glen Jeffery: A halogen lamp, 和 particularly if 你 可以 afford to dim it, it'll last almost forever. 因为 if 你 just turn the power down, which 增加 the amount of infrared light, the bulb 会 last 对于 ages. Absolutely ages.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm. 和 你're using 这 in the 早晨, 你 could also use it in the 晚上. 和 if 你 dim it down, it's not going to alter 你的 melatonin 水平, 昼夜节律 much.

Glen Jeffery: No. 和 if 你 dim it down, 你的 能量 bills 应该 not go up.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: So I believe, profoundly, 那 我们 可以 affect public health, 和 我们 应该 affect public health at a highly economic way. So 我们 are working hard on what's the minimum? What's the minimum? What's the minimum?

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: In critical care units, a big 一 那 我们 确实 are trying to dent is nursing homes, where 这些 人们 spend all their time in beds, 或 they're away 从 windows. 可以 我们 wheel them all in 对于 breakfast 和 actually have a 热 source, an incandescent 热 source, to provide incandescent light, 但 at the same time use 那 热?

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: So the architects used to say, "Well, if 你 want me to change all 这些 lighting, what am I going to do 与 all 这 excess 热 coming off ceiling lamps?" Well, they've turned 大约 now, they're saying, "我们'll put them lower down 和 maybe 我们'll use the 热 circulating in the room." There's lots of imaginative ways 大约 这.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Glen Jeffery: There's 50 PhDs in 这, 与 some 确实 simple winner experiments.

安德鲁·休伯曼： It's great. I mean, I'd like everyone to think 关于 their indoor lighting environment, how much sunlight exposure, 和 short-wavelength-shifted LED exposure they're getting 期间 the 天. Not 因为 I'm 确实 进入 extreme biohacking. I'm actually not. I just think 那 whatever 我们're missing 从 the out-of-doors 那 我们 need 和 is healthy 对于 我们的 mitochondria, which clearly involves long-wavelength light; 你的 work has demonstrated 那 beautifully, 和 the work of others, of course.

Glen Jeffery: Hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 你're 总是 so good at attribution, so I want to acknowledge 你 对于 那 by doing it as well. I think 人们 应该 do it. 和 if it's an incandescent bulb, 或 a halogen, 或 candlelight, it seems like it 会 make a meaningful difference.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Speaking of meaningful differences, 之前 我们 part ways here, I 会 love to hear a story 那 你 were starting to tell me 之前 我们 recorded, 关于 a child 与 a mitochondrial disease. 和 how some of 这 stuff 关于 light 和 mitochondria was actually useful in 那 context.

Glen Jeffery: Yeah. So, 我们're doing clinical trials, 和 I'm quite optimistic 关于 some of them. 但 there is a 具体的 group of diseases called mitochondrial diseases, where the genetic code, 因为 mitochondria have got their own DNA, the genetic code 对于 making ATP gets disrupted. 和 那 可以 be mild, 或 it 可以 be 非常 severe. Some of 这些 children do not make it beyond 25. Typical reasons are 心脏 failure, et cetera. Some of them are 非常 bed-bound 和 crippled by the disease. Others manage to walk 大约 和 function to a 首先 approximation. 和 I started to get emails 从 人们 who said, "你 were showing red light, 你're using the word red light 和 mitochondria, improving mitochondria. My child's got mitochondrial disease." 和 I said, "I don't have ethics 对于 那. I 可以't pass any real comment. If 你 chose to do something, then I suggest 你 可能 consider doing 这." 和 the 首先 child 那 did do 那 had a, I 会 say, gut-wrenching improvement. 我们 were devastated by its effect.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Positive effect?

Glen Jeffery: Positive.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Over here, when 我们 say gut-wrenching, 我们 mean it was negative.

Glen Jeffery: Oh, no, no.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 你're saying, "eye-watering" 对于 你 guys is negative, "gut-wrenching is positive. Over here, "eye-watering" is positive, 和 "gut..." I'm just teasing.

Glen Jeffery: Okay.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Yeah.

Glen Jeffery: So, 我们 were looking at simple metrics, which is, how much they could open their eyelids. It's called ptosis, right? Couldn't open their eyes. 这 child, the 首先 child within a month 或 so, had semi-mobility.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Amazing.

Glen Jeffery: I got a video of her walking to school.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Amazing.

Glen Jeffery: I went to the bathroom 和 sobbed. "Done something 那's 确实 helped someone." Then 我们 had another couple of kids, 和 they all had small improvements. 我们 got a clinical trial 对于 it. 和 我们的 biggest problem is, 我们 couldn't get enough kids 进入 the 研究. The density of kids 与 mitochondrial disease in the UK, 我们 got funding 对于 it, was just too low. So 一 of the things I've got to do, sadly, when I go back, certainly 之前 Christmas, I've got to wrap 那 up 和 hand the money back. I'm just going to say, "Just could not get the kids." 和 some of them, as I told 你, when 那 disease digs in badly, 我们 可以't do anything 关于 it. Some of 那些 kids were just so sick. 你 know, it was a major effort to get them to the hospital to assess them. 但 let's take a defocused image on 这. In theoretically, red light 应该 help kids 与 mitochondrial disease. It 会 do absolutely no harm whatsoever. 和 I generally say, if all of 这 is a pile of rubbish, A: I'll look an idiot, 但 I don't think I am going to look an idiot. B: 你 会 not have wasted money on something 那's just completely worthless. So, I'm talking to 人们 now, 和 I'm saying, "Okay, why don't 你 think 关于 changing the light bulbs in the home to just get 那 extra bit of red light to help 你 通过?" 我们've got a trial 对于 a retinal disease coming out shortly. I don't know the 结果. They won't show me, probably 因为 they know I'll talk. 和 it's 对于 a disease called retinitis pigmentosa.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 非常 common.

Glen Jeffery: 和 我们've had a fantastic response 从 a donor in the States, who has given us some money. 和 the next project in 那 line is changing the light bulbs 对于 patients 与 retinitis pigmentosa. Now, I'm partly working at Moorfields Eye Hospital. Supposedly, it's got the biggest ophthalmic outpatient population in the world. 和 我们 do have enough 人们 与 retinitis pigmentosa. So I'm going to kick 那 off towards the end of 这 year. Everything's pointing towards light bulbs. Everything's pointing towards... 和 I 会, at 这 point, say, 和 I'm not saying it 对于 the 首先 time here, I've shouted 关于 it 对于 the last six months, Moorfields Eye Hospital is building a brand-new hospital. Looks great. It's all in glass. It blocks infrared. 和 it's going to have the world's worst LEDs put in it. 你 know? 我们 need to learn, 但 it's apparent to me, 我们're going to have to learn slowly.

安德鲁·休伯曼： As 与 so many things 与 human health. 但 listen, Glen, I want to thank 你 on many 水平. 首先 of all, 对于 taking the long trek over here 从 the UK. 我们 have some sunlight to offer 你.

Glen Jeffery: Oh, let's look. I'm on the Huberman podcast. 那's a big pro, plus in life.

安德鲁·休伯曼： All right, well.

Glen Jeffery: I got out of London, which was gray, grim, 寒冷, 和 wet. 你 didn't have to talk too hard to get me over here.

安德鲁·休伯曼： All right. Well, 我们're happy to have 你 here in the studio sharing all 这 knowledge. 和 also, I 确实 want to thank 你 对于 shifting 你的 专注 of 研究. 我们 won't waste 人们's time by talking 关于 the various things 那 你 和 I worked on 对于 years. 我们 were in slightly overlapping fields, 和 then, 不同的 fields, 和 我们 会 overlap again. 但 我们 go way back, 和 你've 总是 done such meticulous 和 确实 beautiful work. 但 I think 你 和 I have shared 与 一 another, 和 I'll share now, 那, at some point, 一 reaches a juncture in their career, where 你 kind of go, "How 可以 I make the most positive impact?"

Glen Jeffery: Hmm. Hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 a few years back, when I started seeing the 研究 那 你 were doing on bees 和 mice, 和 then, humans, evaluating how 不同的 wavelengths of light 可以 impact visual function, mitochondrial health, 和 the number of 确实 terrific collaborators 那 你've brought in 大约 那. 和 again, I love the way 那 你 give such ready attribution to the other 人们 in the field, 和 also 那 你 are willing to be vocal 关于 what 人们 可以 do. Scientists are 经常 afraid of 那. 你 give 人们 meaningful suggestions 关于 how they 可以, perhaps, 改善 their health, their vision, et cetera, using low-cost 或 even, in some cases, cost-saving technology. I could go on 和 on here, 但 I 确实 want to thank 你 对于 sharing all 这 knowledge, 对于 doing the work 你 do, 和 对于 being a voice 对于 public health, as it relates to indoor 和 outdoor lighting. 和 I 确实 look forward to seeing what 你 do next, 和 it's a real pleasure 对于 me to sit down 与 a long-term colleague. So thank 你.

Glen Jeffery: I thoroughly enjoyed it.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Yeah.

Glen Jeffery: Thank 你.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Thank 你 对于 joining me 对于 today's discussion 与 Dr. Glen Jeffery. To learn 更多 关于 his work 和 to find links to the various resources 我们 discussed, please see the show note captions. If 你're learning 从 和/或 enjoying 这 podcast, please subscribe to 我们的 YouTube channel. 那's a terrific zero-cost way to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the "Follow" button on both Spotify 和 Apple. 和 on both Spotify 和 Apple, 你 可以 leave us up to a five-star review. 和 你 可以 now leave us comments at both Spotify 和 Apple. Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning 和 throughout today's episode. 那's the best way to support 这 podcast. If 你 have questions 对于 me 或 comments 关于 the podcast, 或 guests, 或 topics 那 你'd like me to consider 对于 the Huberman Lab 播客, please put 那些 in the comments section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. 对于 那些 of 你 那 haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my 非常 首先 book. It's entitled "方案: An Operating Manual 对于 the Human 身体." 这 is a book 那 I've been working on 对于 更多 than five years, 和 那's based on 更多 than 30 years of 研究 和 experience. 和 it covers 方案 对于 everything 从 sleep to 运动, to 压力 control, 方案 related to 专注 和 motivation, 和 of course, I provide the scientific substantiation 对于 the 方案 那 are included. The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com. There, 你 可以 find links to various vendors. 你 可以 pick the 一 那 你 like best. Again, the book is called "方案: An Operating Manual 对于 the Human 身体." 和 if 你're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms. So 那's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, 和 LinkedIn. 和 on all 那些 platforms, I discuss science 和 science-related tools, some of which overlaps 与 the content of the Huberman Lab 播客, 但 much of which is distinct 从 the information on the Huberman Lab 播客. Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms. 和 if 你 haven't already subscribed to 我们的 Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter 那 includes podcast summaries as well as what 我们 call 方案, in the form of 一-to-三-page PDFs 那 cover everything 从 how to optimize 你的 sleep, how to optimize 多巴胺, 主动冷暴露. 我们 have a foundational fitness 方案 那 covers cardiovascular 训练 和 resistance 训练. All of 那 is available, completely zero cost. 你 simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, 和 enter 你的 email. 和 I 应该 emphasize 那 我们 do not share 你的 email 与 anybody. Thank 你 once again 对于 joining me 对于 today's discussion 与 Dr. Glen Jeffery. 和 last 但 certainly not least, thank 你 对于 你的 interest in science.

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