如何用冷热暴露改善健康 | Susanna Søberg 博士

完整译文：This section identifies the interview's central physiological claims and keeps the speakers' qualifications attached to them. ANDREW HUBERMAN: 欢迎收听 Huberman Lab 播客，我们在这里讨论科学以及以科学为基础的日常生活工具。 我是 Andrew Huberman，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科学教授。 今天的嘉宾是 Dr. Susanna Søberg. Dr. Susanna Sjoberg completed her doctoral thesis work at the Center of 炎症 and 代谢 and the Center for Physical Activity 研究 at the University of Copenhagen in Denmark. Her 研究 has focused on how 刻意冷暴露 and 刻意热暴露 可以用于 to enhance 人体代谢. She is the first author of a seminal study which discovered the minimum 阈值s for deliberate heat and 刻意冷暴露 for increasing 棕色脂肪产热, which is essentially a mode of increasing heat production and 代谢 in the body, and for establishing actionable 方案 that 可以用于 outside of the laboratory to improve 代谢 and human health. Dr. Søberg's 研究 was published in the journal, Cell Reports 代谢, in 2021, adding to a long and 重要的 history of 研究 focusing on ……的作用 cold and ……的作用 heat in altering various aspects of the body's physiology, including hormone health, 代谢, and changes in 神经递质, such as 多巴胺 and 肾上腺素. 事实上, today's discussion with Dr. Søberg focuses on ……的作用 deliberate heat and 刻意冷暴露 on 代谢, but it also includes discussion of the effects of cold and heat on things like 神经递质 production, namely 多巴胺, and 肾上腺素, and 去甲肾上腺素, the so-called 儿茶酚胺, which strongly impact mood and 代谢. 此外, Dr. Søberg answers many common 问题s about deliberate cold and 刻意热暴露, including, for instance, ……之间的差异 冷水淋浴s versus cold immersion up to the neck versus total body cold immersion, including 是否 going back and forth between heat and cold changes fundamentally the way that heat and cold impact the 代谢, 激素, and 神经递质 production. And we 讨论 almost every single nuance and variation on deliberate cold and 刻意热暴露 方案 as it relates to the underlying science. In particular, how 冷感受器 在……层面 the skin are impacted versus cold reception and perception 在……层面 the brain and how all of that impacts systems of the brain and body, relating to 心理健康, 身体健康, and 表现. Based on her 科学的 研究 and academic training, as well as her 理解 and use of deliberate heat and 刻意冷暴露 方案, Dr. Søberg is considered one of the world's leading experts on these topics. 事实上, she is the author of a recent book entitled "Winter Swimming," which is, I have to say, a terrific book because it breaks down chapter by chapter the 不同 aspects of deliberate heat and deliberate cold into its various constituent parts, including cold 适应过程, the cold shock response, dangers and safeties of cold water, ……的影响 cold and impact of heat on various aspects of human health, as well as specifics relating to sauna, versus ice, versus cold swimming, showers, et cetera. It's a very thorough read and a very easy and accessible read that if you're interested in deliberate cold or 刻意热暴露 or both, will allow you to embrace those 方案 with the greatest degree of confidence that you're going to obtain the specific endpoints that you're interested in and to do so safely. 开始之前，我想强调，这档播客与我在斯坦福的教学和研究工作相互独立。 It is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-与……有关ols to the general public. 本着这一宗旨，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

完整译文：The discussion then compares practical exposure conditions, showing why 温度, duration, body position, and prior warmth change the experience. Our first sponsor is Plunge. Plunge makes what I believe is the most versatile at home self-cooling 冷水浸泡 for 刻意冷暴露. I've talked numerous times on this podcast about the many 益处 of 刻意冷暴露. And indeed, today's episode is focused entirely on the 益处 and the science of 刻意冷暴露. Plunge uses a powerful cooling filtration and sanitation unit to give you access to 刻意冷暴露 in clean water whenever you want. As we will discuss during today's episode with Dr. Susanna Søberg, 刻意冷暴露, 尤其是 刻意冷暴露 done up to the neck in water, 可以用于 to achieve 一些 重要的 endpoints 与……有关 心理健康, 身体健康, and 表现. I've been using a plunge for more than two years now. I can tell you that it makes it very easy to get your 刻意冷暴露 at home. It doesn't require much cleaning. 事实上, it's very easy to keep clean, which is essential. You don't want bacteria and other things growing in your 冷水浸泡. Basically, everything about the plunge is made easy, so that anyone, including myself, can gather 刻意冷暴露 on a regular basis at home. If you're interested in getting a plunge, you can go to plunge.com/huberman and get $150 off your 冷水浸泡. Again, that's plunge.com/huberman for $150 off. Today's episode is also brought to us by Maui Nui Venison, which I can confidently say is the most nutrient dense and delicious red meat available. Maui Nui spent nearly a decade building a USDA-certified wild harvesting system to help balance deer populations on the island of Maui. The solution they built turns to the proliferation of an invasive species into a wide range of nutrients dense products, from butcher cuts and organ meats, to bone broth and jerky. Their bone broth has an unmatched 25 grams of protein per 100 calories. Several guests on this podcast who are experts in nutrition have pointed to the value of getting at least 1 gram of quality protein per pound of body weight each day. With Maui Nui, that's very easy to do while eating delicious meals and getting it from a sustainable source. If you would like to try Maui Nui Venison, go to mauinuivenison.com/huberman and get 20% off your first order. Again, that's mauinuivenison.com/huberman to get 20% off. Today's episode is also brought to us by Thesis. Thesis makes custom nootropics, and nootropics is not a word that I like because it means smart drugs, and the brain doesn't have neural circuits for being smart, rather has neural circuits for focus, neural circuits for task switching, neural circuits for creativity, and on and on. Thesis 理解s this and designs custom nootropics designed to get your brain and body into a specific state in order to do the mental and/or physical work that's 重要的 to you, such as creativity, or focus, or clarity. If you'd like to try Thesis nootropics, you simply go to their website. You fill out a brief quiz, and they will design a custom starter pack, so that you can assess which things work for you more or less well. And then they'll iterate with you over the course of the next few weeks or months to come up with the ideal nootropic kit for your needs. To get your own personalized nootropic starter kit, go online to takethesis.com/huberman. You can take that 3-minute quiz. And they'll send you four 不同 formulas to try in your first month. Again, that's takethesis.com/huberman and use the code Huberman at checkout to get 10% off your first box. I'm pleased to announce that I will be hosting two live events in September of 2023. The first live event will take place in Toronto on September 12th. The second live event will take place in Chicago on September 28. Both live events we'll include a lecture and a 问题-and-answer period and are entitled The Brain-Body Contract, during which I will discuss tools and science 与……有关 心理健康, 身体健康, and 表现. I should mention that 很多 that content will have absolutely no overlap with content covered previously on the Huberman Lab podcast or elsewhere. If you're interested in attending either or both of these events, please go to hubermanlab.com/tour and enter the code Huberman to get early access to tickets. Once again, that's hubermanlab.com/tour and use the code Huberman to access tickets. I hope to see you there.

完整译文：The 证据 is presented as the guests describe it: the article distinguishes measured findings from hypotheses, observations, and unanswered 问题s. And now, for my discussion with Dr. Susanna Søberg. Dr. Susanna Søberg, welcome. SUSANNA SØBERG: 谢谢。 ANDREW HUBERMAN: 很高兴你来到这里。 I feel like I should give a little bit of the backstory of how we got connected, which was that for many years, I've been interested in cold thermogenesis. It was the topic of my senior thesis in college. And I've of course followed the popularity of Wim Hof. And we've had Dr. Craig Heller, my colleague from biology department at Stanford, who works on cold and its impact on physiology and sports 表现. So, for a long time, I'd been interested in this area. But there's been a real lack of new, let's say, high profile, quality 科学的 information in terms of how, for instance, 冷水浸泡s and sauna, how that impacts human physiology. 我知道 there's been some information out there, but it's been 某种程度上 scattered. And then a little over a year ago, I see this paper in Cell Reports Medicine and was immediately struck. First of all, the fact that it was in Cell Reports Medicine. I've been on the Cell Press editorial board for a long time now. So, press journals are, of course, phenomenal journals. And the title and the content of the paper was directly in line with the sorts of practices that people are very curious about and then are starting to emerge. Things like sauna, 冷水浸泡s, and there was your name first on the author list. And I reached out to you through social media. And we've done a little bit of live content there together. And I've been tracking what you've been doing in the world in terms of your book, and 讨论 the results in your manuscript, and 讨论 the science and impact of 刻意冷暴露 and sauna. And I have to say that it's been a wonderful and remarkable thing to see, and you're bringing so much quality information about this area that for a long time 我认为 was 有点 niche and is now becoming more and more mainstream. So, I'm going to start off with a thank you for being here and a thank you for the work that you've done. And I'm looking forward to talking to you about it today. So, my first 问题, to get things started, is what is happening 当我们 get into an uncomfortably cold environment? So, for instance, if I'm really hot on a hot day, jumping into a cold pool feels really good. But if I'm already 有点 at room 温度, I'm a little bit chilly, getting into that same 温度 of water doesn't feel so good, right? There's a shock there. So, if you could just walk us through what happens 当我们 get into uncomfortably cold water, 是否 it's by way of shower or 冷水浸泡 在……层面 our physiology, and if you'd like, our psychology.

完整译文：The closing material emphasizes boundaries and safety. It records the concrete cautions in the source rather than adding generic medical advice. 我认为 that's a good place for us to start because 我认为 it will orient people to their own experience if they do that. And for those that haven't done it, it might start to peel back some of the layers as to what the underlying mechanisms of cold are. SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah. 谢谢你的提问。 It's really good to just address what actually happens in our physiology 当我们 get cold, and you can get cold in many ways. So, you can just head out for the one that gives you the most potent stressor, which is submerging into cold water. But you could also go in outside in the cold wind. That's also going to activate your 交感神经系统. So, get all these 神经递质 going in your body and so your 儿茶酚胺. Let's just address that we are taking a 冷水浸泡, 例如. So, 如果你是 very hot, 例如, before you go into the cold water. It's going to feel less 有压力的. But the 温差 from your skin to the cold is definitely going to give you a shock, but your 核心体温 is warmer, and that's going to feel a little bit better. So that's why 当人们 go into a sauna, 例如, and go out and into the cold water, they can do it easily, easier than if they were cold beforehand. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Could I just ask you a few 问题s? So, you mentioned the 交感神经系统, which for people listening who aren't familiar with that, is the branch of our 神经系统 that's responsible for creating accelerations and 心率, feelings of alertness, it's accompanied with stress and the 应激反应. But it's accompanied with waking up in the morning for that matter. So, it's not always about stress. And then you mentioned the 儿茶酚胺, which are 多巴胺, 肾上腺素, and 去甲肾上腺素. So maybe a little bit later, we'll 讨论 those individual 神经递质. But you raise a really 重要的 point, which is something I get asked about a lot for people that are curious about using 刻意冷暴露, which is how cold should the water be. And 我知道 it's very hard to give a straight prescription for that because 我认为 it boils down to what you just said, which is it's really ……之间的差异 your current 温度 and really the 温度 at the surface of your skin and the 温度 of the water. So, if you're very warm, getting into cold feels good. If you're already cold, getting into more cold feels 有压力的. Is there any way that 我们可以 start to gauge what is the best way to approach a 刻意冷暴露 方案? I mean, should it feel 不舒适? And that leads into the 问题 of how do we balance the discomfort with the amount of time that we spend in? So, for instance, if it's just a little bit 不舒适, will spending more time in the cold get us the same benefit as getting into very uncomfortably cold water for a very short period of time?

完整译文：The closing material emphasizes boundaries and safety. It records the concrete cautions in the source rather than adding generic medical advice. SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah. It's a really good 问题. And I definitely think that this could be a future study on this as well to really unravel what 有点 方案 are the best way or also for which outcomes, of course. So, if the 温度 sure is very cold and you also feel very cold, then you should stay in the water a little bit longer. So, 我认为 you should get 不舒适 cold. So as long as you get 不舒适 cold, it's cold enough, and you get this what we call the cold shock. So, the cold shock is activation of your 交感神经系统 and these activation of the 儿茶酚胺, which you just mentioned before. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Does the shock mean that I'm having trouble controlling my breathing? Is that a good gauge?

完整译文：This section identifies the interview's central physiological claims and keeps the speakers' qualifications attached to them. SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah. You can say so because that's 有点 like how we define it. So, you hyperventilate. So, you have a faster breathing rate. So that 增加s also because you activate your gasping reflex 如果你是 new to this. But 如果你是 adapted, it 有点 subsides with time with 适应. So, what you can do is that you can train this 冷暴露, and you can get adapted to it, so you don't have this hyperventilating response every time you go out in the cold water. So, this is like building up your resilience, building up your 适应. It's going to make this shock like subside a bit. So, it's always harder in the beginning, but you should do hard things, right? It's not something that we-- you shouldn't think about cold water and cold-water immersion as something that is 舒适. It should be hard because that's the point of it, right? If you enjoy it, then yeah, then I'm thinking something is wrong, is not right. You should not enjoy it. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, this is an 重要的 point that you're making because 我认为 that many people shy away from 刻意冷暴露 because it's 不舒适 in a way that at least from my experience is very 不同 than the discomfort of 运动. Because with 运动, for instance, if running fast and breathing hard is 不舒适, you can slow down or walk. If lifting weights is 不舒适, you can remove some weight, or reduce the number of repetitions, or stop. With 刻意冷暴露, I suppose you can be 某种程度上 halfway in halfway out of the water or partially underneath the 冷水淋浴, but it's very hard to titrate and adjust the level. It's 有点 all or none. And I've seen-- actually, I can tell this by anecdote I've done some work with military special operations. I won't say which country. This was outside the US. And these are very tough individuals. They're 用于 going without sleep and doing hard, high consequence, high risk 有点 work. And they were asked to do some cold-water exposure training, and I was there that day, and it was remarkable. About a third of them just went straight in and just 有点 grinded through it. They looked stoic anyway to me. There were a few whimpers, no cries. About a third talked a lot, and you could tell that they were agitated and anxious, but they made it through. And then about a third of them just simply would not get in past their knees or thighs. It seemed like they were just dreading the whole experience. Some actually didn't actually go in completely. Which was really surprising to me in that you couldn't tell based on their physical appearance or anything else about them, they're all high performers, as to who would have this response. So, it seems like people vary tremendously in terms of their ability to embrace the discomfort of the cold. From your studies, is that your experience as well, or are there these weird mutants who seem to just love going into the cold for the first time? SUSANNA SØBERG: So, some people just feel better in the cold, and some people dread the cold even more. And you can say the more people are pushing the cold away, they might feel the cold pain even more. So, they would definitely-- people who are, maybe the soldiers you just talked about, some of them might be already adapted to the cold. So, if they are not scared of the cold, they go out, and they embrace the cold in a better way. It could also be that some people have a more sensitive 神经系统. And when you are a bit sensitive to the cold, you will, of course, try to get away from it, right? And you also feel the pain more if you avoid it. So, the more you avoid the cold, the more pain painful it will feel when you go into it.

完整译文：The discussion then compares practical exposure conditions, showing why 温度, duration, body position, and prior warmth change the experience. ANDREW HUBERMAN: You mentioned being outside in a t-shirt, versus cold immersion up to the neck, versus shower. This is something 很多 people wonder about. What are the 差异s in terms of impact, short term and perhaps even long term, between 冷水淋浴s, 冷水浸泡 to the neck, so that could be an ice water or just very cold water, immersion with dunking one's head and then coming up because obviously, people have to come up for air at some point, and then simply being outside on a cold day in shorts and a t-shirt or something of that sort. SUSANNA SØBERG: So, there are 不同 outcomes because they are very 不同 exposures of the cold to your 冷感受器 in your skin. So, the more you can say you cover your body in the cold, which you would do in cold water because they're, of course, covered totally and the molecules are closer to your skin, you will have a more potent activation of all your 冷感受器 in the skin. So that one will definitely activate your autonomic 神经系统 more and rapid, compared to going out in a t-shirt in the cold wind, just go for a walk. But that is also something that's going to activate your 交感神经系统. Meaning that you will have an 增加 in 去甲肾上腺素, and you will activate something called the 棕色脂肪. So, this is a healthy 有点 fat tissue that we have in our body. And when you activate that, that's going to 增加 your 代谢. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Before we 讨论 棕色脂肪, and I'm so glad you brought it up because it's so much to 讨论 there, what about 冷水淋浴? I mean, obviously, 冷水淋浴 is somewhere in between being out outside in the air cold air versus being immersed up to the neck. SUSANNA SØBERG: If we had more studies on 冷水淋浴s, we would learn more about how does that activate our 代谢, how does that 增加 our 神经递质 in the brain, which could also have an impact on our mental balance. So, 我认为 that would be interesting for the future. But what we do know is from activating 棕色脂肪 both from rodent studies but also in humans, is that as soon as we get cold on our skin, we will activate our 棕色脂肪. So, it is 有点 like our first responder in the body to keep our 温度 up. So, our muscles is like the second tissue in our body. We have two tissues, which can 增加 our thermogenesis. So, the 棕色脂肪, which is always like 温度 regulating our body. And then we have the muscles, which will secondarily start to shiver, and that's going to 增加 our 温度 in the body. But as soon as you go into a 冷水淋浴, you will activate your 棕色脂肪 also immediately. So, it could be good also for increasing 代谢 in theory because we haven't really any studies showing how much does it actually activate the 棕色脂肪. So, if someone out there wants to do a study on that, that would be great. ANDREW HUBERMAN: I've thought about why there are fewer studies of 冷水淋浴s and cold immersion, and 我认为 the answer to my mind is that from a methodological standpoint, it's just harder to do because if people are getting into cold water up to the neck, they're getting into cold water up to the neck. Whereas if people are getting into a 冷水淋浴, some people are larger or smaller some people are going to stand under the shower with it hitting their head. Some people the back of the neck. You could direct people to do it, but it's a little bit more difficult. Also, 我认为 for-- you and I are both 研究 scientists. There's a little bit of a methodological challenge that might seem silly to people, but it's a real one, which is if people are in a 冷水淋浴 also, the water is going to be-- I'm 有点 pushing their clothing against their skin. There's a certain vulnerability and for most people coming to a laboratory in the first place, let alone being observed while they shower.