Kay Tye: 社会互动与情绪的生物学｜凯·泰博士

安德鲁·休伯曼：欢迎收听 Huberman Lab 播客。我们在这里讨论科学以及以科学为基础、可用于日常生活的工具。我是安德鲁·休伯曼，任教于斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科学系。今天的嘉宾是凯·泰博士。凯·泰博士是索尔克生物研究所的神经科学教授。她曾在麻省理工学院和斯坦福大学接受训练，目前是霍华德·休斯医学研究所的研究员。该研究所汇聚了一批经过严格遴选的研究者，鼓励他们开展高风险、高回报的工作，开拓生物学研究的新领域。在整个职业生涯中，凯·泰博士对我们理解大脑作出了基础性突破，其中包括证明一个叫作杏仁核的脑区并不只是大多数人所认为的、负责恐惧和威胁检测的区域；它实际上也参与强化积极、带有奖赏的行为和经历。她目前的工作聚焦于社会互动的多个方面，包括我们感到孤独或被孤立时会发生什么。今天，凯·泰将告诉我们她发现的所谓“孤独神经元”，也就是让我们产生这样一种感觉的神经元：我们的社会互动没有让自己得到满足。她还会介绍自己发现的一种叫作“社会稳态”的现象。这种现象指的是，无论我们是内向者还是外向者，我们都会感受到自己的社会互动是足够、不够，还是恰到好处。我们还会讨论社会等级和社会地位，讨论人和动物如何在各种社会互动中分成所谓的首领与次级个体、从属者与支配者，等等。我认为这部分讨论会让所有人都特别感兴趣。我们也会谈到社交媒体和在线互动的作用，以及为什么即使与许许多多的人进行了大量互动，社交媒体和在线互动仍常常会让我们在某些方面感到匮乏。我们会讨论社会互动涉及的神经化学物质、神经回路以及激素方面的内容。这场谈话结束时，你会更深入地思考什么是社会互动，为什么有些社会互动让我们感觉很好，有些让我们觉得有点“无感”，而另一些社会互动，或者缺乏社会互动，常常会让我们感到非常耗竭，甚至抑郁。这是一次与心理疾病密切相关的谈话，有助于理解抑郁、焦虑、创伤后应激障碍和孤立等问题；它也直接关系到心理健康，以及如何建立健康的社会互动。在开始之前，我想强调，这档播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究工作是分开的。不过，它确实是我为公众提供关于科学及科学相关工具的零成本信息这一愿望和努力的一部分。秉持这一宗旨，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。现在开始我与凯·泰博士的谈话。凯·泰博士，欢迎你。

凯·泰博士：安迪·休伯曼，能来这里真是太好了。

安德鲁·休伯曼：听众会听到你叫我安迪，然后想知道我的名字是不是安迪。我总能根据对方叫我安德鲁还是不叫安德鲁，判断自己在和谁说话——

凯·泰博士：哦。

安德鲁·休伯曼：……叫我安德鲁的是我的家人，以及我人生某个阶段之后认识的人；叫我德鲁的是那些通过我那段非常短暂、也算不上辉煌的拳击生涯认识我的人；叫我安迪的，则是我进入科学界后认识的人。事情可以这样说：当时还有另一个安德鲁，我们抛硬币，我输了。所以叫我安迪就好，安德鲁也没问题，怎么让你舒服怎么来。今天重要的不是别人怎么称呼我，而是讨论你的工作，而你的工作非常出色。我认识你很久了，一直关注你的职业生涯。看到你对科学以及科学文化作出的贡献，真是令人惊叹，也让人高兴。所以这两方面我们都会谈到。作为开场，我们来聊一个我想大多数人都听说过、但被严重误解的脑结构，那就是杏仁核。

凯·泰博士：嗯。

安德鲁·休伯曼：大多数人听到杏仁核，就会想：“哦，恐惧。”杏仁核就是负责恐惧的。但你知道，我希望你能帮助我们理解，杏仁核实际上比这复杂得多。

凯·泰博士：嗯。

安德鲁·休伯曼：也有趣得多。那么当你听到“杏仁核”这个词时，你会想到什么？

凯·泰博士：我同意，杏仁核的大部分研究资源都被恐惧研究占用了，但其实我们很早就知道，杏仁核对各种情绪加工都很重要。克卢弗和布西曾在猴子身上制造损毁，发现之后猴子对各种不同刺激的情感反应都变得平淡。粪便、食物、无生命物体，不管是什么，都没有反应——

安德鲁·休伯曼：没有情绪。

凯·泰博士：……没有情绪反应，也没有动机意义，无论你想怎么表述都可以。对于通常会让你感到厌恶、兴奋或保持中性的事物，它们都不再有反应。所以我认为，从一开始就已经有了关于杏仁核的这项认识。这不是我提出的。但有意思的是，这几乎可以算是对科学研究如何进展的一种元层面的陈述或观察。有时，我们会因为某条路径容易继续推进，就在那个方向取得很多进展；但同样重要的是要思考其他部分，填补中间的空白，确保自己没有遗漏任何东西。于是，关于杏仁核的叙事变成了恐惧。我认为，这也与我们思考生存的方式有关。当你是一只生活在自然界中的动物，尤其是猎物动物——而猎物动物占多数，数量非常多——你就必须优先逃离捕食者。捕食者是对生存的即时威胁，而奖赏则可以稍后再获得。交配、喝水、寻找食物，这些事情都可以晚一点做；逃离捕食者才是最重要的。因此，在基线状态下，我们加工情绪的方式本来就应该存在某种自然的不对称性。我们也对这一点进行了很多研究。但我认为，我的团队对理解杏仁核作出的宏观发现是：杏仁核在情绪效价加工中起到了一个岔路口的作用。回想那些古老的心理学理论：我们如何对周围世界进行情绪评估？事件链是什么？是否存在事件链？事情是按某种顺序发生，还是并行发生？比如有一种模型认为，大量信息进入之后，我们必须筛选出重要的部分。什么东西是我需要注意的，什么东西是我应该忽略的？如果我在开车，我需要注意道路、这个信号灯、刚刚开始过马路的行人；但现在，我不必太在意袜子接触脚的感觉，也不用注意臀部抵着座椅的感觉。这些都不是我现在需要注意的事情。我需要聚焦动态信息。接下来，你必须进行选择，第二步就是判断它是好是坏，以及你想对它做什么。我认为，这个把事物赋予正面或负面效价的选择过程发生在杏仁核中。

安德鲁·休伯曼：很高兴你提到了“效价”这个词。我想有些科学家熟悉这个词，但大多数普通人可能不熟悉。所以我们来谈谈效价，然后我想回到杏仁核，进一步探索它功能的多样性。当我听到“效价”这个词时，我想到的是某件事的好与坏——

凯·泰博士：嗯，是的。

安德鲁·休伯曼：……对某件事来说，是这样吗？

凯·泰博士：基本上是。

安德鲁·休伯曼：好？

凯·泰博士：基本上是。这个词被许多不同领域使用。我会把它理解成负数和正数，或者说，我们用这个类比表达净正面、净负面；它是有意区别于“价值”这个词的。

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。

凯·泰博士：价值很容易变成一个标量。我们通常会把所有东西放在同一个方向上，只是大小不同；当然，它也可以表示两种效价，但在实验中，我们通常用小奖赏和大奖赏，或者小惩罚和大惩罚来解析价值。而效价只是询问：你的大脑如何回应好或坏的事物？哪些神经元可能会对好事和坏事产生相似的反应？它们可能是重要性神经元，而不是正效价或负效价神经元。所以我认为，这个词代表的就是下一步。

安德鲁·休伯曼：比如说，当我们走进一个陌生环境时，你认为我们的杏仁核会保持活跃，努力判断一个环境、一群人或某个人是否安全，先完成这个检查，之后才能做其他事情吗？也就是说，判断效价以及杏仁核在其中的作用，是不是每当我们进入新环境时都必须通过的第一道关卡？比如，今天你来到这里——

凯·泰博士：嗯。

安德鲁·休伯曼：……你还提到：“我想我把车锁好了。”我说：“不管怎样，你在这个街区都会没事的。”然后你走进来，大概会接收新环境的信息，认识一些新的人。

凯·泰博士：嗯。

安德鲁·休伯曼：我们聊了一会儿咖啡因……又聊了一会儿酒。因为你和我彼此认识，所以你大概感到安全。我希望是这样。

凯·泰博士：嗯。

安德鲁·休伯曼：但杏仁核大概一直在执行这个功能，即使我们对某件事有一些既往了解，它仍然会判断——

凯·泰博士：嗯。

安德鲁·休伯曼：……这里安全吗？出口在哪里？入口在哪里？

凯·泰博士：当然。

安德鲁·休伯曼：这里有哪些人？他们是什么来历？你认为所有这些过程都在运行吗？而且它们总是有意识的吗，还是大部分对我们来说是无意识的？

凯·泰博士：好，这里其实有几个不同的问题。首先我想回答关于新奇性的问题，然后再回到意识这个问题。但杏仁核的工作方式是：它的职责是为任何可能具有动机意义的事物赋予意义。所以如果是全新的事物，我们会注意它，看看它是否重要。它重要吗？因此我认为，任何新奇的东西，即便我们不知道它意味着什么，比如从未听过的响亮声音，即便它实际上不代表任何动机意义，在最初几次出现时也会引起杏仁核反应。你可以在实验室里看到这一点：第一次播放某个音调时会出现反应；当这个音调最终没有预示任何动物能够察觉的事情时，反应会迅速衰减。

安德鲁·休伯曼：人类呢？在人类身上也一样吗？

凯·泰博士：是的，人类也是这样。如果你属于那种把手机设为免打扰的人，而另一些人把手机设成振动，有时它一直在振动，手机总是不断震动；我会把手机设为免打扰，所以当别人的手机响时，我会觉得很突然，但他们甚至不会注意，因为那就是他们手机发出的声音，而且一直都是这样。我认为，这与同一个刺激呈现给你的次数有关，也与惊跳反应有关。刺激最初出现的几次，杏仁核会作出反应，然后反应很快衰减；只有当这个刺激预示着某件重要的事，或者某种奖赏或惩罚时，杏仁核才会再次开始作出反应。这就像你给每个新奇事物一次机会，让它通过一次试验、一次学习告诉你接下来是否会发生什么。所以我认为，火警警报是一个很好的例子。火警警报响起时，你会立刻环顾四周，看看是不是出了什么事。甚至人们纷纷跑出去本身就是显著事件，你会对此作出反应；如果你参加过很多次消防演习，那么一段时间之后你的反应可能会有所不同。所以，我认为这就是习惯化的部分。

安德鲁·休伯曼：你刚才提到，杏仁核会对新奇刺激作出反应；如果它预示着有趣的事情，接下来就会发生其他过程，我们之后会谈到这些。如果没有，杏仁核就停止反应。你还说了一件非常重要的事：杏仁核会对预示奖赏或惩罚的事物作出反应。我想大多数人没有意识到这一点。事实上，我认为许多职业生涯早期的神经生物学家也没有意识到，杏仁核并不只参与恐惧和惩罚。所以当我们谈到杏仁核时，我们大概说的是杏仁核复合体，也就是一组其他结构。杏仁核复合体中是否确实存在一些预示奖赏的神经元，也存在另一些预示恐惧和惩罚的神经元？

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah. So, as a graduate student, I worked on a part of the amygdala called the basolateral amygdala. It's still a complex within the broader amygdala. 这 大脑 region is cortical-like in 那 it's mostly glutamatergic neurons 与 some GABAergic neurons mixed in, 但 没有 the same structure 那 the cortex has. 和 I studied the amygdala in the context of reward. I found 本质上 那 when 你 induce plasticity, 你 get a synaptic strengthening. When animals learn things, amygdala neurons fire in response to cues 那 predict rewards. 和 这 was coming 进入 the context of a field 那 had shown 那 这 happens 与 fear. 和 so 这 became-- I remember the 非常 首先 time I gave a presentation at a scientific conference. I was a junior graduate student. I was given a 10-分钟 talk at the Inaugural Amygdala Gordon 研究 Conference. Many famous professors were speaking, 和 there were 二 talks 关于 the amygdala 和 reward, 和 I was 一 of them. 和 the response to the talk was just, "How is 这 可能? How 可以 你 get the same readout 对于 reward 和 fear?" 和 确实, it came to be there's 二 possibilities. There's 更多 possibilities, 但 the main 二 possibilities are, number 一, 那 the amygdala wasn't 具体的 对于 fear at all. It just responds to anything 重要. If it's 重要, it responds, period. The other possibility is 那 the amygdala has 不同的 neurons 那 respond to positive 和 negative predictive stimuli 和 sends 这 information to 不同的 downstream targets to respond differently. Obviously, I respond differently to a reward. I walk towards it. I consume it. A punishment, I'm avoiding it. 和 so clearly the behaviors are diametrically opposed. 和 so to me, it seemed 非常 可能 at least 那 there was a divergence point 和 maybe 这 could be it. 和 so 我们 just did some 非常 simple experiments when I 首先 started my lab to trace the projection targets of amygdala neurons 和 record. 和 so everything's all mixed up together. So it's not obvious 那 这 会 be a fork in the road. 但 when 你 look at them, 你 do see 那 there are projections 那 come 从 the amygdala 那 are predominantly encoding either reward 或 fear, 和 there's many 不同的 projections, 和 这 is just the beginning. 但 这 was a time when it was a novel concept to even think 那 neurons 从 一 region could have completely 不同的 functions going to 不同的 downstream targets, which now seems totally obvious, 和 there's hundreds 和 hundreds of papers showing it now. 但 at the time, it was difficult to get 这 work published 因为 那's just not how 人们 thought 关于 information moving 通过 the 大脑, I guess.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Well, I think, 首先 of all, such 重要 work 和 so wonderful to be early in the phase of recasting how the 大脑 works, which is what 你 did. I think most 人们 in the general public still think amygdala, fear, 和 clearly it's able to signal reward 和 punishment, as 你 discovered 和 are now pointing out. I'm curious, does the amygdala have a direct line to some of the organs of the 身体 那 可以 change 我们的 bodily activation state, 心率-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... breathing rate-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... 肌肉 tension? 因为 I think most of us experience fear 和 reward as both in 我们的 head, in 我们的 brains-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... 但 also of the 身体.

Dr. Kay Tye: Great question. So, I'll tell 你 the clues 那 lead me to my current working model, which is not necessarily the final word, 但 I 会 say 那 I think the amygdala complex as 我们're discussing it, 这些 13 subnuclei 那 reside in the temporal lobe, they are 重要 对于 assigning importance, 但 they're not 重要 对于 producing the actual autonomic arousal 那 我们 associate 与 panic 或 fear. The reason I say 这 is there's a famous case 研究, patient SM, who has bilateral damage to her amygdalae, 和 no responses to emotional faces, no responses to fearful stimuli, 但 capable of having the panic response due to suffocation, associated 与 suffocation. 和 so there's still the ability to produce 那 panic 和 arousal response. It's just not the cognitive evaluation of it. I think 那's what 我们 think the amygdala is doing, is assigning 那. It does receive information 从 the rest of the 身体. There are, 对于 example, ghrelin 受体 in the amygdala, things 那 可以 sense hunger. 和 我们've done Some work looking at 这, kind of inspired by, I'm not sure if 你're familiar 与 这 研究. It's a controversial 研究, Danziger 2011. 但 where the Supreme Court judges, they looked at Supreme Court judge rulings on parole decisions across the 天 relative to meal breaks. 和 你 可以 see right 之后, it's like breakfast, 90%, everybody's getting parole, everybody's getting out. Yeah. 和 then it just drops to 10%. Then there's lunch, then 我们're back to 80%.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Wow.

Dr. Kay Tye: 和 then it just precipitously drops to single digits again.

安德鲁·休伯曼： So the judges are changing the leniency of their rulings depending on how well-fed they are.

Dr. Kay Tye: There are counterarguments to 这, 但 那 is strongly what the 数据 suggests. It is not a controlled 研究, it is just a striking correlation. 但 it's not a completely novel concept, the hangry phenomenon. I'm sure, I don't know, everybody's 不同的. I certainly experience it. 但 我们 think 那 when 你 are getting strong signals 从 the 身体, 对于 example, I think the amygdala is going to be able to detect a lot of 不同的 homeostatic inputs, even though 我们 don't have 证据 对于 那 yet. 但 对于 specifically 能量 balance, when 你're hungry, 你的 amygdala 可以 detect it perhaps 通过 ghrelin 受体 或 other mechanisms. 和 then what 我们 see is 那 之后 一 天 of food deprivation 对于 mice, 你 可以 see 这 shift in the balance between the positive valence encoding projection neurons 和 the negative valence encoding projection neurons. 和 at baseline, fear trumps all. The negative projection neurons 可以 silence the reward projection ones, which makes sense. If I need to run away 从 这 predator, I 可以't worry 关于 eating 这 food right now. 但 if I'm in a near-starvation-like state, which 对于 mice, they have 非常 high 代谢, so 一 天 没有 food is a 确实 big deal. They only last a few 天. So, at 这 point, they are kicking 进入 survival mode, where actually getting food becomes the greater need. 和 你'll see animals hunting in ways they normally wouldn't hunt when they're 确实 desperate. 和 so 这 mode of food deprivation shifts things so 那 the reward 通路 actually has stronger power to-

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm

Dr. Kay Tye: ... influence 和 silence the fear 通路 than 之前.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Wow. The 大脑 is so smart.

Dr. Kay Tye: It 确实 is.

安德鲁·休伯曼： It 可以 take what 我们 normally think of as a priority list. Fear 和 staying safe is 更多 重要 than food reward, 和 then if food 和 acquiring food is critical to survival, it 可以 invert all 那, is what 你're saying.

Dr. Kay Tye: Exactly.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Amazing.

Dr. Kay Tye: 和 it happens in a 天. It seems reversible. So 那's something 那 我们're looking at right now 和 thinking 关于 how 具体的 is 这 to food? Is 这 true 对于 lots of 不同的 things? What 关于 运动, other stressors 那 are potentially 更多 positive? The amygdala is able to detect a lot of 不同的 signals 从 the environment, 和 我们're not sure how all of 那 gets in there. So I think 一 of the detection of the environment has been 确实 well worked out in terms of 我们的 basic sensory modalities. 但 think 关于 the things 那 确实 affect 你的 emotions 天 to 天. At least 对于 me, as a human in 这 society, the things 那 affect my emotions most 天 to 天 are almost entirely social interactions, 非常 subtle ones, ones 那 don't seem to threaten my life 或 safety. 非常 small, subtle social interactions have the greatest bearing, I think, on my emotional evaluation 和 my emotional bandwidth. 和 what is 那? How do 我们 detect 那? How do 我们 assemble 这 information, apply all the nuance, put on the onion layers of social programming to come out 与 whatever I interpret 这 gesture to mean? It's pretty incredible, 和 so 那's where my 研究 program has been sliding.

安德鲁·休伯曼： It's such an interesting area. Let's drill 进入 it a bit. 和 to put it in context, maybe talk 关于 social media. So on social media, whether 或 not it's Instagram 或 X, 那些 seem to be the 二 major platforms. I'm not on TikTok. 人们 say stuff. Sometimes they say positive things, sometimes they say negative things, sometimes they say things 那 are sort of neutral.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： So it seems to me 那 nowadays, if 一 is on 这些 social media platforms, 那 我们've sort of crowdsourced 这 phenomenon of social interaction in a way 那 我们 hadn't 之前. 因为 I grew up prior to the advent of social media, 和 I could bring my physical 身体 进入 certain environments 和 not others.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Even at high school, I could hang out. 我们 had an area called the Bat Cave where skateboarders 和 some other, at 那 time, misfits hung out.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 我们 had the Quad where the cool kids hung out, et cetera. 你 could pick 你的 niche.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Okay? Social media is not like 那. 你 可以 pick followers, they 可以 pick 你, et cetera. 但 I think since most 人们 have social media nowadays, it seems, 或 are on there in some ways, 那 我们've placed ourselves in the center of an arena in which 我们 have a ton of incoming input. Most of us have amygdalas, 二 of them, amygdalae, as 你 pointed out, 一 on each side of the 大脑. 和 presumably, 我们're on 这些 platforms to receive positive feedback 和 avoid negative feedback. 然而, there does seem to be a cohort of 人们 who seem to like the friction of ... combat 或 let's just call it high-friction interactions 或 moderate-friction interactions. They like to argue. They like to parse ideas. It's not all bad, necessarily. So have 你 ever looked at social media, in 你的 own 心智, looked at social media 通过 the lens of amygdala filtering, 或 通过 the lens of neural 回路 filtering 和 wondered what's going on there, 那 someone 没有 你的 in-depth knowledge of 这些 大脑 circuitries 会 not think to look at 那 landscape 通过?

Dr. Kay Tye: Hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 或 maybe 我们 could just do 那 now-

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... as a kind of playful experiment.

Dr. Kay Tye: No, I like 那. So a lot of 人们 ask me 关于 social media 从 the context of, is 这 social contact meaningful? Is 这 positive? Does 这 count? Does 这 help 你 not feel lonely? 和 of course, I don't know the answer. 我们 haven't done 那 particular 研究 yet, 和 I don't know of 那 具体的 研究 having been performed. 但 my prediction is 那 it's not going to do much 因为 I believe 那 a key component of what I 会 consider social contact heavily depends on having some inter-大脑 synchrony, some interaction, 那 is synchronous. 和 I think 与 social media, sometimes there 可以 be an engaging dialogue 那 plays out in near real time. 但 generally speaking, it's asynchronous. 你're looking at things 那 happened 那 你're not a part of. 你're excluded 从 all 这些 things.

安德鲁·休伯曼： It happened in Australia yesterday.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 I'm on there saying, "Cool, love it."

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 then the person's already asleep.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yes, exactly.

安德鲁·休伯曼： So 那's what 你 mean by asynchronous.

Dr. Kay Tye: Asynchronous, like 那.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Got it. Yeah.

Dr. Kay Tye: 我们're not experiencing things at the same time. It's not a shared experience, in terms of having 那 bond necessarily. 和 so I've 从不 actually been asked 关于 how the amygdala processes social media. I guess I think what happens is the amygdala is just responding to stimuli. It's sending up bottom-up signals. It's a caricature of bottom-up 和 top-down processing. Let's give an example 那 I'm walking down the street, 和 all of a sudden I hear a 确实 ferocious dog barking, all going crazy. 和 then I get super scared, 和 then I realize, okay, there's a fence. So the amygdala heard the dog barking, "这 is a dog barking," 和 I'm freaking out. Then my prefrontal cortex realizes there's the fence, 和 it looks 非常 sturdy. 这 fence looks stable. 和 then I'm relaxing 和 I'm resuming my walking normally. I think 那's sort of the dance 那 我们的 大脑 is doing when 我们 have top-down 和 bottom-up information, 那 我们're trying to stay focused. So 对于 me, I think when I'm on social media, there's so many stimuli 那 are evoking responses. 和 to be completely transparent, 和 I know 这 is not something 那 everybody else does 或 可以 do 或 is necessarily what's best 对于 them, 但 I work 非常 hard to control input 从 the top down, in terms of I 确实, 确实 limit the amount. I basically don't check email 或 go on social media. I 会 say I'm on social media 或 email 更少 than 一 小时 per 周, basically.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Per 周?

Dr. Kay Tye: Per 周.

安德鲁·休伯曼： All I have to say to 那 is congratulations. 我们'll talk 关于 social media again in a 秒, 但 as a fellow professor email once a 周. I've heard of 人们 scheduling their times 对于 email responses, 但 once a 周, 那 is awesome.

Dr. Kay Tye: I have 人们 who help-

安德鲁·休伯曼： No wonder 你're so productive

Dr. Kay Tye: ... I have 人们 who help me get 通过 it, 和 then-

安德鲁·休伯曼： No wonder 你're so productive

Dr. Kay Tye: ... 和 filter out what's 重要, 但-

安德鲁·休伯曼： Oh my goodness

Dr. Kay Tye: ... otherwise, whenever I do my own email, I say yes to all 这些 things, then I make all 这些 plans, 和 then I have too many trips, 和 I'm responding fragmented. 和 it's just over-committing, 和 I think I know my limits. Sometimes it's difficult 对于 me to be in my amygdala mode, responding to stimuli, 和 yet letting my prefrontal cortex do its thing. So I've set some 非常 heavy prefrontal cortically selected limits of the input I put in so 那 my 大脑 可以 function 和 be clear. I 可以't be creative. I 可以't have epiphanies if there's all 这 clutter of writing 这 person back 和 blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, tweet, tweet. Ugh. It's just-

安德鲁·休伯曼： I love it

Dr. Kay Tye: ... get the trash out. Wipe, squeegee the 大脑 down so 那 我们 可以 actually grow something beautiful 和 new.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Well, 和 I want to re-emphasize what I said in my introduction, which is 那 你 are oh so productive. 和 when I say productive, I don't just mean productive like plug 和 chug. The work 你've done is incredibly creative. 你 transformed 我们的 understanding of what 这 famous structure, the amygdala, actually does. 你've made so many 重要 discoveries as a consequence of presumably other things, 但 including wiping away all 这 incoming 和 clutter. As 你 said, controlling the top-down inputs. I have to ask, just 从 a practical standpoint, 期间 那 一 小时 a 周 are 你 reading every email 那 came in 或 are 你 just being 非常 selective 关于 which emails-

Dr. Kay Tye: Oh, no.

安德鲁·休伯曼： So 你're not opening most emails?

Dr. Kay Tye: No, I don't open most emails.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Amazing.

Dr. Kay Tye: No. I search 对于 the ones 那 my assistant identifies as the 一 I need to open. There's a list of things 那 I 会 be interested in, 和 then 我们'll go 通过 the list, 和 then sometimes it requires me to go 和 find the email 和 respond to it myself. 和 then I 会 do 那 对于 10 分钟 a 天 或 something.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Do 你 recommend-

Dr. Kay Tye: 和 then just get out of there as soon as I 可以.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I love it. Do 你 pass on 这 advice to the 人们 那 你 train?

Dr. Kay Tye: I think it depends on what resources 和 what's 你的 job right now. So I think as a trainee, I definitely did my own. As assistant professor, I did my own emails. 但 at a certain point, I was just 从不 getting to the bottom, 和 then it 会 just 压力 me out, make me feel overwhelmed, 和 what is my job? My job is to, number 一, be a stable core of a sustainable 研究 program 和- 那 just requires me having a lot of 心理健康 和 wellbeing 和 clear mindedness, 和 I need to be able to come up 与 creative ideas. I need to be able to sprint when there's a deadline, 和 I just 可以't exhaust my 系统 与 unnecessary, I 会 call them quadrant four in the time management quadrant, if 你're familiar 与 这-

安德鲁·休伯曼： Oh, yeah. What is it?

Dr. Kay Tye: ... initiative management.

安德鲁·休伯曼： It's 重要, urgent.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yes, 重要, things-

安德鲁·休伯曼： Certain things are urgent 但 not 重要. Some things are urgent 和 重要.

Dr. Kay Tye: 和 some things are neither 重要 nor urgent.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Right.

Dr. Kay Tye: 那's most emails are in the imp- If 你 read time management literature 和 你 have the luxury to have someone else help 你 或 something 那's so well trained to be 确实 good at capturing things 那 are 重要, 和 sometimes I miss emails, 但 emails are not the way my trainees 会 reach me. They 会 reach me in a 不同的 way. 和 then emails are 对于 everyone else 那 I didn't give my number to.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I feel so honored to have 你的 contact. I think 这 is wonderful advice 对于 人们 to hear. 我们 have a future guest on 这 podcast named Cal Newport. He wrote the book "Deep Work," 和 he has another book called "A World 没有 Email." He's a computer science professor at Georgetown, where he talks extensively 关于 the tremendous career, 但 also relationship 和 life value of doing 本质上 what 你're describing. 尽管 I do think, Kay, 那 你 represent the extreme of what I've become aware of in terms of 人们 那 可以 limit the amount of time on social media platforms 和 email. Anyway, I just want to say congratulations. I just want to say 那 again. 和 I think even if 人们 don't 减少 to 一 小时 per 周, I think 那 making some effort toward 减少 the amount of incoming, as 你 said, controlling the top-down inputs-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... to the amygdala, 但 also to the rest of the 大脑 involved in creative processing, et cetera, is so key, 和 我们 actually do have agency. It just is it's tough sometimes to build up 那 discipline. So 你're doing a tremendous service by sharing 那 somebody as successful as 你 does 这, presumably is successful in part 因为 你 do 这. Could 我们, by extension, say 那 many 人们, since billions of 人们 are on social media, are 可能 triggering the activation of their amygdala, clouding out other, 更多 potentially productive activation of their neural 回路 by just making themselves freely available to the thoughts 和 words 和 impulses of others? To me, it seems the answer 会 be yes, 但 I'd like to know what 你 think.

Dr. Kay Tye: 和 there's something to be said, there's definitely been moments where I've gone deep 进入 social media 和 spent 更多 time in a certain burst 那 is isolated. 和 I think 那 there's a lot to be learned 从 social media. So to actually to bring it back to 一 point 你 mentioned earlier, on social media, sometimes 人们 just want accolades, 和 sometimes there's a lot of friction. 一 of the reasons I stay on social media, even though I'm making 这 big effort to sort of declutter my consciousness, is 因为 of 那 feedback. 尤其是 when 对于 someone like 你, I imagine 这 has got to be super true, 和 even 对于 me at a certain point in my career, it just felt like 人们 don't want to tell me bad news to my face as much anymore. Everybody's so positive all the time, 和 what are they 确实 thinking?

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Dr. Kay Tye: 和 social media allows 你 the protection of anonymity to say what 你 确实 think 没有 consequence, 本质上. 和 so on the 一 hand, the consequence-free nature of being able to just say things 可以 be 非常 dangerous, 但 at the same time, 对于 me, I 确实 value just being able to receive it. I'm a big girl. I 可以 filter out what I want when I get all the inputs, 但 if I don't receive the inputs, sometimes it's hard to learn 从 the feedback I'm not getting. So even sometimes feedback's given in a not 非常 nice way, I 可以 still create a model 对于 someone else 那 has 这 perspective 那 I 可以 take 与 me, 和 那 可以 be another perspective I 可以 honor easily in the future 因为 I have 这 theory of 心智 对于 someone 会 get upset 关于 那. 那's something 那 could be harmful to 人们 who have 这 theory of 心智. So I think it's super valuable 从 那 perspective, 和 那's why I continue to use it.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Great. Yeah. I 确实 applaud 那 as well. I 总是 read my teaching evals 因为 they're anonymous. 和 yes, I do wonder what grade the 不同的 人们 who gave 不同的 evals got. I don't know 那 information.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I sometimes wonder, do they attend the class, 或 are they just angry they didn't do well on the exam? 但 那 确实 represents the small fraction of feedback 那 I wonder 关于. Most of it 那's valuable to me is the, "Hey, liked the course, 但 这些 parts 确实 sucked-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... Professor Huberman," 或-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... "这 part was completely unclear," 或, "Completely hated the way 你 blank, blank, 和 blanked."

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 因为 那 feedback is something I 可以 确实 work 与 to 改善. So I think-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... course evals are 相似的 to what 你're describing. I think there's value there. If I were to just look at the positive feedback 和 then ignore the negative feedback 和 write 那些 人们 off, then I don't think I could 改善 as a teacher. Actually, I 总是 encourage comments 和 feedback 和 suggestions in the YouTube comments 对于 这 podcast 对于 那 reason, 和 I do read the comments. I go 通过 和 I read, 和 a few of them sting.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 但 the positive feedback is great, too. Sometimes it's, "更多 of 这, please."

Dr. Kay Tye: Yep.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 或, "更少 of 那, please."

Dr. Kay Tye: Yep.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I think there's information in 那.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： So I think it sounds like 你've been doing all of 这些 things naturally. I-

Dr. Kay Tye: So actually, since I've had my 研究 group, my lab, 我们 do an anonymous lab survey It's supposed to be 关于 every 18 months, 和 then it's a whole long process of going 通过 it, 和 it's just evolved. I think it's the fourth 或 fifth time 我们've done it, 和 so it's now, I think it's like 70 questions. It's so many questions. Maybe 我们 应该 trim it down, 但 it ends up being hundreds of pages of text, short answer, sometimes long answer, feedback anonymously 从 人们 in my lab. My lab is pretty big, so I'm not even trying to 确实 guess who is saying it. It's just feedback, 和 it takes me months to go 通过 与 it 和 get all the feedback, 和 it is so useful. In a class, the amount of contact 那 你 have is restricted to 这 非常 具体的 time 和 space, whereas when 你're mentoring someone over the course of years, there's a lot of 不同的 points of contact 和 interaction, 和 你're in the lab 40 小时 a 周 或 whatever, 和 going trips, meeting here. There's just a lot of 不同的 ways to 改善 和 ways 那 我们've 从不-- I haven't had any 训练 in how to be a 确实 great mentor. 和 so I'm getting 那 训练 now. I'm making my own course, 和 my mentees are my teachers, 和 I 确实 am grateful 对于 the tutelage 那 they provide 对于 free in 这 anonymous lab survey. Sometimes it makes me cry, 但 sometimes it makes me feel 确实 good 关于 something 那 I'm doing 那's working, 和 in any case, it makes me feel 那 I have ground truth. I guess I still don't know. 但 when 人们 say things 那 sting, it makes me feel like they're saying what they 确实 think, 和 they're not holding back. 和 bad news feels like reality, 和 so something 关于 那 is rewarding, just to feel like I have reality rather than I'm getting something else. The model doesn't quite fit. It's 非常 unsatisfying when the model doesn't quite fit.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I love the word ground truth. There's something so beautiful to 那, 和 I resonate 与 what 你're saying. Let's go back to social interaction, something 那 你的 lab is doing lots of work on nowadays. 和 maybe 我们 could shift to the sorts of social interaction 那 most of us are familiar 与, the sitting across the table, having a coffee 与 somebody, the taking a walk 与 somebody.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Maybe a phone call.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Maybe a tough conversation. Maybe a playful unscripted conversation. Maybe a meal at a holiday dinner. There's a huge range there. What do 我们 know 关于 the value of social interaction at the 水平 of core biological needs? Like at the 水平 of neural 回路 和 maybe even 激素. Most 人们 have heard of oxytocin. They think the love 激素, 但 there's so much 更多 there 对于 人们 to understand 和 know 关于. How 重要 is 这 thing 那 我们 call social interaction, 和 how bad do things get when 我们're not getting the right kinds of social interaction?

Dr. Kay Tye: I think 这 is a great question, 和 I'm glad 那 it's become something 那 has been recognized at a 更多 global 和 national scale, just the importance of having social support in 我们的 lives 对于 我们的 well-being. 但 social isolation 或 even just perceived loneliness has immense health consequences 对于 all social species. So, shortened lifespan, 增加了 情绪 disorders, 增加了, actually, morbidity 和 mortality 对于 diseases like cancer 或 心脏 disease 那 可能 not be what 我们 会 normally think. 和 so, I think understanding how each of 那些 processes is happening, 那些 mechanisms are far 从 being worked out. 但 the correlational 证据 is undeniable. 我们're now taking 这 进入 the lab 确实 对于 the 首先 time. 和 so something so simple as social isolation, how come 我们 don't know way 更多 关于 it? 和 I'm someone who stumbled 进入 the field of social isolation by accident prior to the pandemic. 和 so I'll just say the whole story on why there's such a gaping hole in 我们的 knowledge as a neuroscience community 关于 social isolation 确实 comes 从 Harry Harlow's work, 这 original work of maternal separation 那 was undeniably cruel. It caused irreparable damage to 这些 baby monkeys, 和 they 从不 recovered 和-

安德鲁·休伯曼： Sorry to interrupt.

Dr. Kay Tye: Sorry. Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I apologize. I'm just striving to not interrupt in my life.

Dr. Kay Tye: No, please.

安德鲁·休伯曼： So 那 人们 are on board, could 你 just briefly describe the Harlow experiments?

Dr. Kay Tye: Yes. So they're 非常 famous experiments where they separated baby monkeys 从 their moms 和 then had either a wire sort of thing holding a bottle. So, okay, what do 你 miss most 关于 the mom? Is it the food, 或 is it the comfort? So they had a wire thing 与 a milk bottle versus blankets 和 cuddly soft things 和 the baby monkeys 会 go to the cuddly soft thing. 但 a blanket is not a replacement 对于 a mother. Nobody's saying 那 it is. 和 通过 这些 experiments, there was extended maternal separation, 和 it was deemed cruel. There was permanent irreparable damage. When 你 rehouse 这些 monkeys, they 从不 resocialized normally. They had lots of 不同的 mental 和 身体健康 problems. 和 I think in humans 我们 know 那 solitary confinement is considered torture. Social isolation is a difficult thing to 研究 in a lot of conditions. 和 我们 stumbled onto it by complete accident 通过 working 与 a former postdoc in my lab, Jillian Matthews, who was a graduate student doing an experiment on-- It was just trying to figure out if 这些 多巴胺 neurons 会 also respond to cocaine the way VTA, 这些 ventral tegmental area 多巴胺 neurons were known to respond to cocaine, wanted to see if 这些 other 多巴胺 neurons respond to cocaine, so sort of an incremental 研究. So when 你 do 这些 cocaine 研究, 你 inject the animal 与 cocaine 或 saline, 和 then leave the naive animal in the cage. 和 then 你 take 大脑 slices, record 从 the neurons, 和 look at the synaptic strengths. 和 so, the expected outcome sort of was 那 这些 多巴胺 neurons 会 be 相似的 to other 多巴胺 neurons 那 showed in long-lasting potentiation 之后 a single dose of cocaine. 但 what happened instead was 那, yes, there was potentiation of the cocaine animals. There's also potentiation in the saline animals relative to the naive group, 和 这 was a huge puzzle. What was 这? 和 it turned out 通过 many 不同的 experiments, 那 it's actually 因为 when 你 inject animals 与 cocaine, 你're separating them 从 the group. 因为 they act crazy. 和 这 is just the way 人们 do the experiment. So 你 inject them 与 saline, 你 separate them. The naive animals just stay there. So-

安德鲁·休伯曼： 与 their other littermates

Dr. Kay Tye: 与 their other littermates.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I see. So the control group-

Dr. Kay Tye: 那's right

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... the saline control group is actually a social isolation condition.

Dr. Kay Tye: So by accident, 这 control group 那 didn't make sense was how 我们 stumbled onto. So then 我们 tried, is it novel cage? It's not the novel cage, it's the social isolation. 和 so 那 is how 我们 became a lab 那 studied social isolation. It was a complete accident. 我们 weren't sure what 我们 were looking at. 和 then 我们 found 这些 neurons, 和 我们 manipulate 这些 neurons, 和 they produced something 非常 不同的 than other 多巴胺 neurons, which normally, if 你 stimulate 多巴胺 neurons, 这些 ventral tegmental area, midbrain 多巴胺 neurons, 90% of the time when 你 hear 人们 talk 关于 多巴胺 neurons, they mean 这些 ones. 和 they're the ones where 你 press the lever, stimulate the neurons, they'll press the lever thousands of times. 和 if 你-

安德鲁·休伯曼： They love to be stimulated.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yes.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Yeah.

Dr. Kay Tye: 和 if 你're a human 和 你 do cocaine, most 人们 love cocaine. They're 非常 prosocial when they're on cocaine. 和 so 那's what 多巴胺 neurons were thought to be doing. 但 这些 other 多巴胺 neurons in the dorsal raphe, 那 I 会 also say is in the brainstem near to an aqueduct where 你 could detect signals 从 the 身体. 但 这些 other 多巴胺 neurons in the raphe, when 你 stimulate them, animals don't like it. They 会 not work 对于 reward. They actually 会 move away 从 a space where they're being stimulated, conditioned place 和 real-time place aversion. I don't like the feeling of 这些 neurons being activated. Please stop it. 和 yet they 会 be prosocial. 和 so 对于 a long time, 这 was super confusing. 我们 couldn't understand it. 和 then just 因为 at the same time, 我们 had a hunger 研究 going on in the lab, 我们 just thought 关于 it like, I 可以 eat food 因为 it's delicious, 和 I want to eat 这 yummy treat, 或 I could eat 因为 I'm super hungry. I feel shaky. I'm just going to eat 这 nasty fiber bar 那's out of my backpack 因为 I'm so desperate, 和 my 血液 sugar is dangerously low. 和 so there's 二 reasons 那 你 可以 eat, 和 一 of them is uncomfortable. Hunger is not comfortable. It's not a good feeling to be hungry. 和 so 我们 thought 关于 这, 和 那's kind of how 我们 circularly came 大约 to thinking, I think 我们've discovered the loneliness neurons, 本质上. 和 so what is loneliness? 和 loneliness is 这 unpleasant need state of wanting social contact 那 会 have 这 prosocial effect as well. 和 so, 那's basically the 非常 serendipitous, loopty-loop way 那 I came to be studying how loneliness is represented in the 大脑.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Amazing. 之前 我们 talk a bit 更多 关于 这些 loneliness neurons 和 some of their inputs 和 outputs in the 大脑, how has the discovery of 这些 neurons perhaps changed the way 那 你 organize 你的 天 和 周 和 life, if at all? 对于 instance, are 你 更多 aware of how much time 你 spend alone versus 与 others? Are 你 更多 careful 或 discerning 关于 who 你 spend 你的 time 与? I ask 这 因为 there's so many examples 对于 me in the neuroscience literature where I learn something new 关于 how the 大脑 works, 和 I think, "Oh, yeah. It makes a lot of sense why my sleep isn't great." It turns out 那 light exposure to the eyes at particular times of 天 确实 sets the whole 身体 和 大脑 进入 particular rhythms 那 explain why I was a little depressed when I was in graduate school, staying up all 夜间 doing experiments. 和 I'd sleep much of the 天 和 feel like I was getting eight, nine 小时. I don't get eight to nine 小时 now, 但 when I wake up early, 对于 me personally, there's a bit of an antidepressant effect-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... as long as I slept the 夜间 之前.

Dr. Kay Tye: Seasonal affect disorder is real.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Right. So, I think as new information comes online, at least 对于 me, it's changed the way 那 I organize my life in subtle-

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... 或 in not so subtle ways. So the idea 那 there are neurons in the 大脑 那 encode loneliness, the absence of social contact, does 那 have 你 thinking, 之后 a few 天 of managing the lab, which as 你 point out, 你 have a 非常 large lab, lots of social interaction, 但 it's work context, social interaction. Has 那 led 你 to think, "Hey, 我们 应该 go out to dinner as a lab," 或, "I 应该 spend time 与 somebody who's not in science," 或, "I 应该 spend time by myself 因为 I've had too much social interaction." I'm not asking 对于 strict 方案 here. I'm just wondering if 你're willing to play in the sandbox of 这 与 me a bit.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： How 这 information perhaps has shaped ... some of 你的 choices. 你 personally.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 to be 非常 clear, I'm not asking 你 to dictate what other 人们 do.

Dr. Kay Tye: No, of course.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Has it changed 你的 social life?

Dr. Kay Tye: So it's 确实 interesting 那 你 ask 这 question, 和 now 那 你're asking it 这 way, of course, when I learn new things, I take them 和 implement them 进入 my life. 但 to be honest, in the cycle of learning 和 studying 和 being curious, I actually think where I reside 更多 is when something's going on 与 me, my 研究 program, 研究 is me-search. It dictates what the 研究 program evolves 进入. 和 so, 对于 example, so I've just started studying loneliness a few years 之前 the pandemic hit, 和 then the pandemic hit, 和 it was just a step function-like change. I went 从, I'm 从不 alone, unless 你 call being in an Uber alone, 或 being on a plane, 和 just constantly 人们 in my office. Even when I'm going to the bathroom, someone's waiting 对于 me outside. It's like I'm hurrying in the bathroom. I'm 从不 alone. There's four 人们 in my bed kicking me in the face. There's just so much social contact. 和 then boom, there 会 be a 天 I wouldn't see another- Not zero, 但 it was just extremely sudden drop of social contact when there's no 更多 work 和 it was just 那 period of time, 和 it was 非常 depressing. It was just 这 huge-- I felt like I was in free fall, 和 at 首先 it was 确实 disruptive, 和 I was worried 关于 myself. 和 then at some point, I adjusted to it, 和 then I got used to working 从 home. I got started a garden. I just started a 不同的 life pattern 那 involved a lot of alone time 和 an alone time personal life agrew where there wasn't any space 对于 anything to grow 之前. 和 then I became comfortable 与 it. 和 so then I start thinking 关于 那 那's 确实 where the idea of social homeostasis was born. 这 idea 那, okay, why is it 与 acute social isolation, humans, monkeys, mice, 你 acutely isolate the individual 从 the social group, 你 reintroduce them to the social group, rebound of pro-social interaction. "Oh, so happy to see 你." There's all 这些 affiliative interactions, acute, a burst of affiliative interactions, whereas 与 chronic social isolation in humans, monkeys, mice, even flies, 你 reintroduce them to the social group 和 你 get territorial behavior, aggression, avoidance, antisocial behavior, 或 just sort of a 非常 不同的 negative valence response to the exposure to the group. 和 so 这, maybe 人们 brushed it off 对于 a long time as just, "Oh, it's confusing. 这 literature is inconsistent." 或 maybe there's 一 model 那 makes it all make sense 那 is social homeostasis, where 你're used to getting 这 at a certain point, 和 so my effector 系统 gets activated. I detect 那 I'm alone. I want 更多. The deficit's detected. Then my effector 系统 gets activated, 和 then I start spinning all the 系统 那 try to get me back 进入 contact. I'm calling my friends. I'm texting my friend. If I'm a mouse, I'm making ultrasonic vocalizations. I'm exploring outside of the burrow. 和 then, if my friends don't call me back, they're like, "Sorry, 我们 don't want to see anyone till end of COVID. Bye." Whatever it is. It's not working. My correction efforts are failing, 或 maybe a certain amount of time, 我们 don't know. Then I give up. I stop calling. I stop going out. I just make a 不同的 life. 你 don't leave the burrow, whatever it is. 和 in animals 和 humans, at least behaviorally, there's a near step function like drop-off of attempts to... 你 could see, oh, then they just give up on dating 之后 这 一, whatever happens. There's some straw 那 breaks the camel's back, 和 then 这 person doesn't want to date anymore 或 doesn't want to go out anymore, whatever. 和 what is 那? So 那 adaptation, then 你're at a new baseline. 你're expecting now 你的 new normal. I'm expecting to have a gardening 天 at home alone, not see anyone, 和 then a bunch of 人们 come over. It feels like a surplus. So my previous optimum, reintroduction to the social group, is now feeling like a surplus, an overload, overstimulated, 和 那's, I think, something 那 a lot of 人们 experience, 这 whiplash of going 进入 the pandemic 和 coming out of it. 不同的 人们 to 不同的 水平. It depends on how much 你 isolated while 你 were in the pandemic. 但 I think thinking 关于 你的 social set point as being flexible 和 dynamic was a new concept to me. 和 then in my 心智, the question is, what is the part of 这 process 那 is causing all 这些 harmful health consequences, like shortened lifespan, 情绪 disorders, et cetera? Is it the initial detection 那 I'm missing something, an effector 系统 activation? 因为 if 那 was the case, maybe I want to Band-Aid 那. Maybe I want to get a pet, get a Zoom buddy. I don't know. 你 会 have 不同的 prescriptions 和 advice to give 人们 if 那 were the case. Versus 你 会 give almost opposite advice if the thing 那's causing it is the set point adaptation. Then 你 want to stave it off, versus if 你 wanted to accelerate getting 进入 the set point. Which is better? Is it the adaptation, 或 is it trying to fix it? 和 so in 一 case, 你 会 want to ease off having the set point happen, the set point transition happen. In the other case, rip it off like a Band-Aid, 寒冷 turkey, just adjust, 和 then 你'll be fine. Then 你 won't worry 关于 it. Then 你 won't be lonely anymore 因为 你'll just be comfortable being alone. 人们 talk 关于 cognitive flexibility, 和 I think it's sort of like 那, 但 it's social flexibility. I want to be able to be alone. I also want to be able to be in a large group 和 be comfortable. 和 so I think what I've done, if anything, to change my lifestyle To accommodate 这些 new insights I've had is to consciously create dynamic social experiences. Lots of social experiences, yes, 但 also protecting alone time, which I 从不 did 之前. I just gave it all away. 和 I realized 那 having 那 just made my social homeostatic 系统 feel 更多 elastic 和 flexible 和 resilient 和 更少 like a crisis if something-- I'm 非常 comfortable being alone. I'm super comfortable in my own 皮肤 now, 和 it requires investing in 那 relationship. I like how 你 framed earlier, I think 我们 were not recording yet, 但 the relationship 与 yourself as being a 非常 重要 relationship. 和 when I think 关于 大脑 states, 我们 don't know 这 yet, 但 my working model 会 be 那 不同的 个体 represent their identities, 和 whenever they're present, it creates a unique ensemble of 那 combination of 人们 being present. 和 being alone is also a unique state 那 cannot be achieved. I have the 大脑 state of being alone. I cannot achieve it if anyone else is 大约, 和 那's kind of the working model I have.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I think what 你're saying is essential 对于 人们 to hear 因为 it makes sense 那 loneliness 会 hurt. It makes sense 那 some 人们 are 更多 extroverted, which I think is defined as getting 能量 从 social interactions 和 resetting 能量 通过 social interactions, as opposed to introverted. Which, by the way, folks, introverts like myself do enjoy social interaction, it's just 那 我们 reset 通过 更多 solo 或 一-on-一 time than 我们 do in larger groups. 那's my understanding of the introversion-extroversion literature. 我们 可以 revisit 那. 但 这 notion of social homeostasis is, I think, so key. 重要 enough 那 I think 我们 probably want to redefine it as many times, 或 restate it rather, as many times as is necessary. 因为 I believe what 你're describing is the same thing 那 一 会 experience 与 food. If 我们 eat a lot, 我们're consuming, I don't know, 3,500 calories a 天, 和 then suddenly 我们 only have access to 1,800 calories a 天, it feels like a deficit 因为 indeed it is. Whereas 之后 some period of time at 1,800 calories a 天, 2,200 calories a 天 feels like relative abundance. When the pandemic hit, I certainly was unhappy 关于 the state of affairs in the world, of course. 但 I recall feeling like, "Oh my goodness, I finally don't have to commute 90 分钟 in each direction to Stanford," 因为 I lived in the East Bay at 那 time. I felt like I had time to do things I hadn't done in a long time. 和 thanks to Zoom, I was able to get certain things done, not others. Then 之后 关于 six to eight months, when I realized 那 这 is going to carry on 对于 a while, I remember feeling quite lonely 和 making some efforts to repair 那. I think social media, not to harp on social media, could do either 一 of 二 things, 和 I don't know which, in the context of social homeostasis. Either going on Instagram 和 seeing a lot of familiar faces 和 comments 和 accounts could make me feel like I'm getting some social interaction, such 那 then when I close 那 app 和 move to my work at my desk 或 something, which 这些 天 is mostly done solo, 那 I 会 feel like I had social interaction. 或 perhaps it's the equivalent of calories 那 then makes me feel 更多 isolated when I'm not in the app. Perhaps. I find it to be distinctly 不同的 than the experience I had last 夜间 of going to dinner 与 someone I know quite well, sitting down 和 having an open-ended conversation, 和 deciding to close out the 夜间 only when 我们 realized, "我们 got to get up tomorrow 对于 work," so went 我们的 separate ways. There's something 那 felt 非常 sating 关于 it. So I wonder in 这 context of social homeostasis, whether 或 not the analogy of social interaction to caloric intake, is there another dimension to it where it's not just the total number of calories 或 the total amount of social interaction, 但 the quality of social interaction, the type of social interaction 那 actually feels like nourishment as opposed to just calories?

Dr. Kay Tye: I love where 你're going 与 这. 和 so when 我们 wrote 这 review the 首先 time, 我们 were conceptualizing 这 idea of how 你的 social set point 可以 change based on if 你're acutely isolated 或 chronically isolated. 和 the Y-axis is the quality/quantity of detected social contact, which is so fuzzy. 和 it's, again, 一 of the most challenging frontiers of 这 field 因为 even if 我们 measured every single component 那 the 大脑 可以 detect of the social contact, so much of it is 关于 expectation. Like if I get a nod 从 the president, I'm like, "Oh my God, did the president just nod at me? 那's so exciting." Versus if I get a nod 从 my partner, I'm like, "Oh my God, are they mad at me? What's going on? Why did I just get a nod?" It totally matters. The gesture, 你 会 need the identity. There's many 不同的 cognitive 系统 那 need to all plug 进入 这 wheel to make it spin. So I think 那's going to keep us busy 对于 a while. 但 in terms of 你的 question 关于 social media 和 when 你 switch 从 getting social media feedback 和 then doing work, I think it 确实 depends. Social media is such a- Large category. 你 可以 have many 不同的 types of responses. Generally, I think the bounds of when 你 say social media versus a real-life interaction where 你're 与 someone, maybe 你're touching, maybe 你're not touching, 但 even if 你're just having conversation, 你 have inter-大脑 synchrony. 你 are having a lot of inter-大脑 synchrony. 你're in the same place. 但 你 可以 have inter-大脑 synchrony even on the phone. Just a voice call is actually a lot 更多 inter-大脑 synchrony than messages. I think text messages 可以 bring a lot of anxiety, 和 there's been a lot of commentary 关于 那. 和 same thing 与 social media. I think the thing 关于 social media 那 is perhaps the most harmful 或 negative, I think, in terms of when I'm thinking 关于 social nourishment, sort of making 那 term up on the fly here, 但 it's almost a withdrawal. When social media is posted, it's not to 你. It's to everyone. 和 你 could be 一 of the 人们 那 receives 这 message, 但 it's not even to 你. I'm not even talking to 你, 和 I'm doing something 那's 没有 你. Otherwise, 你'd be in 这 picture 和 not reading on social media, listening to whatever. So, it's like by almost exclusively, 你're posting 关于 activities 那 你're being excluded 从, 和 someone's not even 确实 talking to 你, unless they're direct messaging 你, 但 then I kind of consider 那 a 不同的 category if it's like a 一-to-一 communication. Social media to me is a blast. Catching up 与 someone on social media, I don't 确实 see the merit of it 因为 I'll just catch up 与 them when I catch up 与 them, 和 their kids 会 just be way older, 但 I don't know. I'll actually 确实 catch up 与 them than just see pictures of... I don't know. I feel mixed 关于 it 因为 it's not a real connection, 和 it doesn't, 对于 me, sate my social appetite to look at someone else's profile on social media. 那 doesn't actually do anything 对于 the connection. I don't know, 但 I seriously doubt tons of oxytocin is 释放了 when I follow someone's feed 关于 their vacation. So, I don't know. I think 那 it definitely matters the quality, 和 social media is 不同的 than real-life interactions 对于 many reasons.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I 确实 appreciate 你的 willingness to explore in 这 context. I think 你的 mention of the fact 那 real-life interaction involves inter-大脑 synchrony, could be by text, scaling up 从 那 by phone, FaceTime, 或 something akin to 那, video chat. On social media, there is comments back 和 forth, 尽管 那's time-consuming, 和 it's difficult 因为 there's anonymity. 人们 are in 不同的 places-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... 不同的 time zones.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： If 你 don't know someone, it's 不同的 context.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： So, thanks to what 你're describing, I'm 确实 starting to think 关于 social media as so 不同的 than in-person social interactions 或 by phone 或 video chat social interactions, 和 how 那些 会 differentially impact social homeostasis. 和 it's leading me, at least, to conclude 那, at least 对于 me, 那 most social media interactions 会 create 更多 hunger-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... as opposed to a sating of the need 对于 social interaction. I have to be careful 与 the analogies here-

Dr. Kay Tye: Yes

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... 但 since I 可以 do 这, I was almost going to make an analogy between pornography-

Dr. Kay Tye: Uh-huh

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... in-person sexual intimacy.

Dr. Kay Tye: Uh-huh.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I suppose there's something in between where 人们 could talk by phone, 但 我们 don't want to explore 这 in any kind of salacious way. 和 then sexual intimacy 与 emotion, 与 positive emotion.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： There's a scaling factor there.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 I'm not putting judgment 或 valence.

Dr. Kay Tye: Uh-huh.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I'm certainly not. 那's not my place. As a good friend of mine says, "I'm not a cop." I'm not telling 人们 what to do they 可以't do. 但 it's so interesting to think 关于 这些 回路 within us 那 create 这些, what 你 和 I in 我们的 field call appetitive, the desire 对于, 或 aversive, the desire to move away 从, type responses, 和 how so much of 我们的 life, aside 从 你, 因为 你're regulating 你的 social media 和 你的 email intake, 但 so much of life now is offering us the opportunity to tickle 这些 回路, 或 even hit them hard 与 a sledgehammer. 但 我们're not thinking 关于 这些 homeostatic mechanisms of whether 或 not they're creating 更多 hunger 对于-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... 或 更多 satisfaction 从.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 I cannot emphasize enough how critical 这 is, 和 I think 那's 因为 I'm somebody who does spend a fair amount of time on social media.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： A lot of my work exists on social media, YouTube, et cetera, 和 I 会 hope 那 the work 那 我们're putting 进入 the world 与 这 podcast is creating a satiation 或 the desire 对于 information rather than a hunger 对于 更多. I do hope 那, 但 I recognize 那 educational material on social media represents a tiny, tiny fraction of what's there. So, social homeostasis, I think is a term 那 if 人们 haven't already stamped 进入 their 心智, they 应该 be stamping 进入 their 心智, 和 Dr. K. Thai deserves credit 对于 那. I 会 say 那, so 你 don't have to. I've heard 你 say 之前, 你 wrote in a review something akin to social contact is either positive 或 negative when it's deficient 或 in excess, which is, I think, what 你're describing as social homeostasis. Is 那 right?

Dr. Kay Tye: When 我们 talked 关于 the quality 和 quantity, just in terms of contact, just amount of contact, there's such a thing as just the right amount. There's such a thing as too little. There's such a thing as too much. There's overcrowding. It doesn't matter who. It 可以 be 你的 family. Sometimes it's a lot.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Maybe 你的 family.

Dr. Kay Tye: It depends.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Do 你 know the famous Ram Dass quote?

Dr. Kay Tye: No.

安德鲁·休伯曼： "Think 你're enlightened? Go spend a weekend 与 你的 parents." No disrespect, Mom 和 Dad.

Dr. Kay Tye: I know. 但 I think 与 quality, it matters so much. Like I was saying 之前, the same gesture 从 the president 或 my partner, it's going to feel 非常 不同的 to me whether 那 was a slight 或-- It's relative to what is appropriate 对于 我们的 rank, 对于 我们的 prior history of relationships, 对于 the environmental context. 和 so I think 与 social media in general, 和 I agree, social media is great 对于 a lot of things. I think 那 having a podcast like 这 那 is accessible to the public makes 研究 更多 sustainable. So I have a lot of things to say 关于 science communication 那 I'm 非常 grateful 对于. 但 in terms of social media, think 关于 the mutual investment. When 你 are interacting 与 someone on social media, what are they investing in 这 connection? So if I put out a post 关于 my vacation 那 is public, I'm investing 0.0000000001% of my bandwidth to make contact 与 你. 你 know what I mean? 和 so it scales up 从 them. If 你're making a voice call 与 someone, 你're giving them at least most of 你的 注意力 对于 the time 那 你're on the call. 那's a lot, right? So just thinking 关于 the investment is another component. There's the real-time component, 和 then there's the investment component. Who is it coming 从? It matters. If 你're anonymous, I cannot tell what 这 means. A compliment 从 anon- 或 a hate comment 或 a love comment 从 an anonymous person, I don't know what to do 与 这. I just literally don't know how to-- It doesn't 确实 do anything 对于 me 因为 I don't know how to interpret it. It's almost uninterpretable 没有 这 other dimension 那 my 大脑 has evolved to look 对于, I think. So 那's speculation, 但 I think social media is operating in a way 那 is not ethological 和 not designed to make us feel better. It's just designed to make us want to use it. 和 I think a lot of 这 comes down to things 那 are relative. There's the famous observation, if a monkey sees another monkey get a cucumber, it's happy 与 the cucumber. 但 if a monkey sees the other monkey get grape, monkey wants grape. 你 want to keep up 与 the Joneses. If 你 see someone else having something, suddenly it feels like a loss 那 你 don't have it, 那 你 didn't even think of 这 thing 那 你 needed, right? 和 so I think social media is exposing 你 to a lot of things 那 你 don't-- It's like 这 parameter space 你 didn't have. There's all 这些 things 你 didn't know 你 were missing 那 你 didn't need to miss out on. 和 so 我们 have 这 whole project now. 我们 have 二 projects, 一 那's looking at social isolation 和 following what happens 与 social isolation across the time course to try to understand, is it the amount of time, 或 is it the amount of effort 那 你 put 进入 correcting 那 deficit 那 leads 你 to the giving up state change? 和 another project 那 is 关于 the quality of social contact, specifically social exclusion. So a 不同的 kind of deficit. 你're 与 你的 other animals, 但 there's 这-- It's four animals 那 are cage-mates, 和 三 animals are on 一 side able to drink a chocolate milkshake, 和 the other animal's excluded. 和 这 一 excluded animal 会 go up against the divider 和 look frantic 和 exhibit lots of behaviors 那 我们 会 associate in humans 与 fear of missing out, trying to reunite 与 the group, trying to get the 注意力 of the group, trying to get over there, a lot of attending, looks frantic, 和 studying what 我们 think is actually going on. 和 so I think coming up 与 paradigms to try to probe social isolation, 和 我们 don't even know what behaviors animals exhibit when they're lonely. 这 is a challenging field 因为 there's no number of lever presses. There's no script to follow, 和 there's no trial structure. 和 so 对于 a neuroscientist, neuroscientists were trained to be rigorous 关于 我们的 statistics 因为 of the stochastic nature of neural activity 和 how do 我们 process things 没有 a trial structure? How do 我们 be statistically rigorous when the animal is just free-floating, deciding whatever it wants to do? 和 so 那 is kind of the crucible 那 my lab is working 通过 right now to establish pipelines 和 techniques 和 ways to quantify social behaviors 和 peel off all the layers.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I love where 你的 lab is headed, which just means 我们're going to have to have 你 back on here again at some point in the future to get the answers to 那些 questions 那 你're now addressing. I've long thought 那 我们 确实 know how 我们 feel 关于 somebody when something good happens to them 或 对于 them. 和 I 从不 quite understood 这 at the 水平 of mechanisms. How could I? 那's not what my lab 研究. 但 I think 那 there's a natural sort of empathy, if 一 is a healthy, empathic person, to seeing a member of 我们的 own species, 和 hopefully, also to observing the members of other species, experiencing some discomfort. 我们 don't like 那, nor 应该 我们. So another human is in emotional pain. The wail 或 the cry of loss is 一 那 just, I think, 对于 any person who's empathically attuned is just like, "Ugh." 或 an animal, 你 hear an animal in pain, like, goodness. I'm not here to diagnose sociopathy, 但 if 那 doesn't evoke at least some sort of response of like, "Oh, gosh, what I wouldn't do to remove 那 pain." 那 their pain is 你的 pain, empathy. 那 seems like a 非常 reflexive 回路, 或 at least I 会 hope so. 但 When somebody experiences something positive, I think it's normal 和 healthy to have a graded set of responses. If it's somebody 那 我们 确实 love, 我们 may not even know them. 我们 think, "Yeah." 你're just reflexively happy 对于 them. Somebody 那 我们 dislike, I think there's a 更多 natural tendency to be like, "Oh." As opposed to if 那 person were in pain, I 会 like to think 那 even if 一 didn't like them, 那 你 会 think, "Oh, 那 sucks. I'm 确实 sorry to hear 那." So I feel like there's some asymmetry in 这些 empathic interactions. They're both empathy. 一 has negative valence, pain. The other 一 has positive valence, another member of 我们的 species 或 other species receiving reward, 和 我们 可以 delight in 那. I'm almost embarrassed to admit how many ferret 和 otter 和 raccoon accounts I follow 因为 I love seeing them eat. I love seeing the little hands of the raccoons. There's some great raccoon accounts, by the way. 和 I delight in it. I want to see the raccoons win. I don't know why. I love animals, 和 so I suppose 那's why. So do 你 think 那 我们 are asymmetrically wired 对于 这 empathic attunement? 可以 我们 observe 那 in other animals? I realize 这 可能 not be squarely in the wheelhouse of what 你的 lab is focusing on, 但 I think it relates enough to the topics 那 我们're covering today 那 if 你'd like to speculate on what 可能 be going on there.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah. I 可以 definitely speculate. Something 那 我们 think 关于 a lot, 但 again, there's some 水平 of 这, which is semantics, I think of empathy as being defined as being able to understand another animal's emotion 和 also taking it on. So I think something 那's a little bit 不同的 than emotional contagion. I see a panic, I'm in a group of panics. It's not the same thing as empathy. Empathy is 经常 used in certain contexts, like feeling sorry 对于 someone, 和 it's maybe 不同的 对于 feeling happy 对于 someone. 和 这 is something I was just talking 关于 与 一 of my graduate students the other 天. Is there an asymmetry in empathy 对于 positive 和 negative, 或 is it just what 我们've studied? It's easier to 研究 这.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Dr. Kay Tye: 我们 don't know the answer, 但 I guess another conceptual framework to put out there, I'm not saying it's correct, it's I think just a good tool 对于 debate, 但 it's not so much 那 there's good 人们 和 bad 人们, 和 那 good 人们 are empathic 和 bad 人们 aren't. It's not quite so simple. I guess the way I think 关于 it is whether 你 view 这 other social agent as having aligned goals 或 agendas as 你, 或 are they adversarial? So if they're in 你的 alliance, whatever 那 means, broadly defined, versus adversarial, 你 会 have a 不同的 feeling. I was just watching 这. Okay, 这 is just sort of over-sharing, 但 这 is a podcast, not a primary 研究 journal, so I 可以 just say things, right? So I watch some trash TV sometimes, 和 这些 reality competition shows where it's like, "Then 你 vote the 二 best friends 进入 elimination, 和 they have to eliminate each other." 或 whatever.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mildly sadistic.

Dr. Kay Tye: 但 then they're best friends, 和 then it's basically mutually exclusive. Either 你 可以 care 关于 你的 friend 和 feel bad not wanting to send them home, 或 it's game time, 和 你 compete. 和 so 你 可以 see 不同的 个体 wrestling 与 这些 二 大脑 states 和 what to do. My speculation is 那 viewing someone as a competitor, 和 they're an adversary, they are standing in the way of me getting what I want, empathy goes down. It's inversely correlated to empathy if 你 are viewed as a competitor. So things 那 会 contribute to 你 creating a model where a social agent is an adversary as opposed to a potential ally is 确实 what it's going to come down to the degree 那 你 feel empathy. The 秒 你 realize someone's out to get 你, no empathy. 和 no 更多 empathy 对于 这 person who I just realized is out to get me 或 something like 那. 或 in the case of being isolated 对于 a long period of time, 你've learned to exist on 你的 own now. Maybe everyone's 你的 competitor 或 adversary. 和 none of 你 guys are 确实 helping me do my 天-to-- I don't 确实 need 你 guys 对于 anything, so I'm eating 这 food 或 whatever. I think it just becomes 不同的 when 你're part of an ecosystem 和 你 realize 那 there's consequences 和 every action 那 你 take, every act of altruism 会 be recognized, 和 there's some score being kept when 你're part of a society. 和 then when 你're not, there's none of 那. 和 so I think the degree to which 你're integrated in society, it's almost like the extracellular matrix. 这 is an out-there analogy, 但 when 你 think 关于 synapses being made, connections between 人们, there's also all the support material 那 facilitates certain patterns 和 certain connections 从 happening 或 not happening. 和 I think it's stuff 那 我们 haven't quantified yet, 但 I think 那些 things 应该 be studied.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Years ago, I worked 与 at-risk kids, 和 a fair number of them had just arrived 从 a region of the world 那 had undergone dramatic sociopolitical evolution 和 change. 和 it was remarkable 因为 我们 会 put out a tray of food to eat, 和 then the format was everyone 会 serve themselves, 和 then 你 could go get 更多 food if everyone finished. 和 a couple of 这些 kids 那 had come 从 这些 非常 deprived environments 会 just take 更多 than their share. It was clear 那 by taking 那, other kids weren't going to get any. 和 I remember telling them, "Listen, 我们 all have to eat 更多 或 更少 equal parts, 和 then there is 更多. 我们 可以 get 更多." 和 I'll 从不 forget 这 kid's response. He just turned to me 和 he said, "你 可以't hit us." 和 I said, "那's true. I 可以't hit 你." 和 he said, "So I'm just going to take as much as I want." 和 这 took several 周, actually, to work out, right?

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 因为 of course, I 会 从不 hit him 和, 但-

Dr. Kay Tye: Everyone's his adversary.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Everyone's his adversary. 和 it was remarkable to see the evolution of 这些-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... kids across 那. It was 关于 三 和 a half 周.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： At which point, they actually became incredibly good at sharing.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 但 it took a lot of work. It was almost as if even though they knew 更多 trays of food could arrive-

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... not limitless, 但 there was an abundance of food.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： In the moment, they were solving 对于 那 short-horizon moment.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yep.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 here 我们're talking 关于 human beings-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... capable of speech 和 expression-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... of emotion, et cetera, 和 he understood the fundamental rule, which was I couldn't hit him, 因此, he could basically do what he wanted 没有 那 consequence.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和-

Dr. Kay Tye: Which is the main consequence he'd face-

安德鲁·休伯曼： Right

Dr. Kay Tye: ... apparently.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Exactly. 和 I remember, it was so striking. I'll 从不 forget 那. 和 the evolution to a 不同的, 更多 altruistic state was wonderful, 尤其是 因为 of what I think what it did 对于 him.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 但 I'll 从不 forget thinking, 这 is a human being who's 本质上 functioning like an animal.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Like an animal.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I had a bulldog mastiff, 和 he was kind to other dogs, 但 if there were unattended to toys at the dog park, he was going to pick them up. 和 he'd put them right in front of himself 和 his, 这 was down in San Diego, 和 he'd sit 与 them right in front of him, 和 I'm like, "Costello, 你're not going to play 与 all 那些 toys." 但 if another dog came, 和 he wouldn't, he 会 just sit in front of them. 但 another dog 会 come 和 try 和 take 一 of 那些 toys-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... 和 he had 这些 giant mitts, 和 he 会 just, boom, slam it down 和 drag it back. 和 so it seems 那 there are 这些 非常 primitive 回路 关于 resource-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... allocation 和 protection of resources 那 in the absence of understanding 那 there's a much bigger landscape, like Costello eventually figured out, tug's a fun game.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 尽管 most dogs couldn't play tug 与 him, there were a few 那 could. He was a 90-pound bulldog. He had just a neck like 这. 但 to see 这 in a human being was just so striking. As 你're describing 这, it's like 这 adversary versus neutral versus friend. It's just so striking, 和 it's got to be 那 the 大脑, as complex as it is, I've 经常 wondered, 和 我们的 colleague Marcus Meister once said 那, "回路 in the 大脑 可以 broadly be divided 进入 这些 sorts of 回路, 进入 yum, yuck, 和 meh." Right? Which is far too simplistic, right? 但 who am I to argue 与 the great Marcus Meister? 和 I'm not going to. 但 it's sort of interesting, 我们 sort of bin 我们的 responses 进入, "Yes, okay. Let's cooperate," 或, "Yes, let's cooperate."

Dr. Kay Tye: 你're summarizing valance.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Yeah. 或, "No way, no chance."

Dr. Kay Tye: Uh-huh.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Like, mine.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Versus like, "Meh." 和 as complex as I'd like to think the 大脑 is, 和 我们 are, maybe when it comes down to behaviors 和 how 我们 interpret input 和 我们的 decision-making, maybe it's 确实 all 关于 feelings of safety 和 feelings of relatedness.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah. I think it's also 关于 the experiential statistics 那 你 have been exposed to. So 这 boy who says, "I'm going to take all 这 food 因为 你 可以't hit me," 我们 don't know, 但 the picture 那 grows out of my imagination is 这 boy's had a lot of experiences of 人们 hitting him.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Dr. Kay Tye: A lot of experiences of not enough food.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Dr. Kay Tye: 和 not a lot of experiences of strangers being nice to them. Like, not a lot of 人们 那 你 could trust. 那's the experiential statistics 那 会 fit 这 model. Someone like 你, who's coming in being like, "Oh, no, there's 更多 food. I'm going to give 你 guys 更多 food 对于 free. I'm going to give 你 even 更多 food 对于..." The experiential statistics are 你've come 从 a world of abundance where 人们 are generosity. 你've learned being generous 可以 make 你 have a lifelong friend 和 all 这些 amazing opportunities 那 make 你的 quality of life, 那 你're 从不 going to think 关于 food again. It's 关于 the relationships 因为 那's 你的 experiential statistics. 和 so I think 这 is such a profound concept 关于 neuroscience 和 the 大脑, 关于 我们的 social structures 和 how they form what makes a structure egalitarian 或 despotic, right? How 可以 我们, as 个体, take a structure 那 is 一 format, let's say despotic hierarchy, 和 evolve it 进入 something 那's 更多 egalitarian? 和 what are the levers, 和 what are the parameter spaces 那 我们 可以 pull on? 和 I think 这些 are questions 那, it's hard to think of what could be 更多 重要. 但 那 perspective of thinking 关于 从 experiential statistics, I think 确实 supports the need of diversity. Bringing in 人们 to academia who've had 非常 不同的 experiences, experiential statistics, 不同的 biases of what they're going to think is interesting to work on 和 研究, 和 obviously, in every sector of 我们的 society. So I think, how 可以 我们 get 更多 diverse sets of experiences represented at each decision-making 身体 那 确实 matters?

安德鲁·休伯曼： Yeah. Amen to 那. 和 also to be able to understand 那 differences in background experience require 那 我们, earlier 你 mentioned theory of 心智, 这 ability to get 进入 the mindset of others 和 sort of assume 或 presume certain mindsets in order to hopefully create a 更多 benevolent environment 对于 everybody. It requires realizing 那 some 人们's social interactions have been terrible 或 traumatic. It requires a departure 从 self, 本质上. It requires 这 empathy 或 something like empathy in all directions, right? In all directions. It requires 那 everyone at least make some effort to try 和 understand 那. I do wonder, 和 maybe someone 会 put on the comments on YouTube, maybe 你're aware, Kay, of whether 或 not kids are being trained in 那 beautiful period of time of life where neuroplasticity is so robust.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 尽管 it does continue throughout the lifespan, it is 尤其是 robust early in life to be, in a healthy way, empathically attuned.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： To be able to have theory of 心智.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 更多 robust theory of 心智.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah. So I'm a parent. I have 二 kids 那 are in public school, 和 I think their public school is rated, it's fine, 但-

安德鲁·休伯曼： 我们 won't say where 你 live.

Dr. Kay Tye: It's all right. 但 at their school, they definitely do get education 关于 更多 holistic health 和 emotional regulation, I think, 和 considering others. 那's a big 专注 of the school, 和 I think 那's actually 确实 重要. Again, I'm super biased 从 my upbringing, 但 my kids are going to learn math whenever it's time to learn the math. They'll learn it whenever they need it. Whenever they need it, they're going to learn it in a couple, I don't know, a couple of 周, 和 figure it out, do the thing. Most of the things 那 they learn, they're going to forget them 和 then have to relearn them. So what are the things 那 你're going to 确实 need to know no matter what 你 choose to do? 和 I think regulating 你的 own emotions 和 engaging other 个体 in a healthy, sustainable way 那, 和 I mean sustainable in terms of the longevity of the relationships, 和 I think 那些 are the things 那 end up 确实 mattering. So I think also 这 question 关于 exposure to abundance 和 scarcity is 确实 interesting, too. I don't know if 那's a direction 我们 want to go 进入, so.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Please. Yeah. Well, I think 这 whole, it sort of sounds new agey when I say the abundance mindset, right? 你 see 这 in 人们 who are recently divorced 或 newly single 对于 whatever reason. Is the world a place where finding partnership is relatively straightforward 与 some work involved? 或 is it like there's only 一 person on the planet 对于 你, 和 they 可能 be dead already, right? If someone else's business takes off, maybe someone 你 went to college 或 high school 与, 或 their lab is doing 确实 well, 你're seeing them tremendously successful, 但 maybe they made $100 million in a company acquisition. Do 你 immediately feel like, "Oh, 那些 are resources 那 I don't have even though I'm not in 那 business"? 或 do 你 see it as, "Wow, there must be a lot of money out there 那 人们 could earn 和 potentially make"?

Dr. Kay Tye: I 确实 prescribe 和 believe in 这 abundance versus scarcity mindset framework. I think there's absolutes, like the example 我们 just talked 关于, the kid, there's just not food. There's scarcity of food. Fact. Of course, there are 个体 那 experience scarcity of various 不同的 needs. 但 many of us, 我们 reach a threshold of abundance, 和 then it becomes relative. 我们 have everything 我们 absolutely physiologically need if 我们're not comparing ourselves to anyone else. 但 then once 我们 enter the social arena, comparison is essential. Why do 我们 compare ourselves to others? It's ingrained 因为 social status is something 那 我们 need to attend to. A large part of 我们的 大脑 is devoted to representing 我们的 relative social rank. What's 我们的 place 与 a social network? What's the dynamic? How do 我们 fit 进入 the social landscape? 和 comparison, I think, is just a way to do 那, 那's been evolutionarily conserved, perhaps 对于 更少 of a good purpose at 这 point 因为 so many of 我们的 basic survival needs are met 对于 the large majority of humans on the planet today. Not 对于 everybody, of course, 但 yet what is the percentage of humans who feel they have everything 那 they desire? How many 人们 feel like they don't want 对于 anything, 和 it's interesting 因为 having things doesn't make 你 have an abundance mindset. Having abundance is not sufficient to give 你 the mindset of abundance.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 那's such an 重要 statement. I don't think 那 could be restated enough. 你've studied social rank.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 人们 hear social rank 和 hierarchy, 和 I have to guess 那 at least some neurons in their amygdala 和 other areas of the 大脑 get buzzing 因为 as soon as 人们 hear social rank, they, I think, naturally start thinking, "Well, where am I in 这 social rank, 和 how do I feel 关于 how 那 rank is established?" 和 all sorts of interesting 和 重要 questions. Some 人们 get 非常 angry 那 there are billionaires on 这 planet.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 尤其是 given 那 in most major cities, 你 don't have to go 非常 far to see 人们 who have 非常 limited resources.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Social rank is something 那 I think exists in every little niche. Like at work, 和 maybe even in the family, there's social rank.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I have a sibling. I remember who got 更多 of a piece of cake, like even a slight difference in 那, was something 那 my older sibling 会 point out, 因为 she was 更多 effective at getting the slightly larger piece of cake. 因为 until I was big enough to fend 对于 myself. 和 my friends 与 larger sibling pools in their family, it was 尤其是 competitive.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I don't know if 你've ever gone to a meal 与 somebody who had a lot of siblings.

Dr. Kay Tye: They eat fast.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 不同的 resource allocation methods than if they were an only child-

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... versus 一 sibling.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： There's variation here. I'm generalizing. 但 yeah, let's talk 关于 social rank. What do 我们 know 关于 how social rank is organized in the 大脑, how 我们 perceive 我们的 own social ranking, 和 what's the modern science on 这 stuff? I find it fascinating. I'm not scared of any topic, well, most any topic, 和 I think 这 is 一 那 affects us all.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah. I'll 首先 say 那 social rank is something 非常 具体的 to a certain type of hierarchy 那 assumes a linear hierarchy, which sometimes forms, 但 oftentimes there's 不同的 types of hierarchies 那 are flatter 或 更多 amorphous. It's not 确实 clear who's the alpha on the playground. I don't know. There's 这 clique here. There's-

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 it 可以 be dynamic.

Dr. Kay Tye: Right. It's dynamic.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Yeah.

Dr. Kay Tye: It's not 总是 organized as such, 但 if 你 get animals 进入 a sort of small space, 你 会 see in many species, 尤其是 within the males, forming a linear hierarchy. 和 我们 wanted to explore 这. 和 so I think 一 of the biggest challenges 与 studying social rank, 和 这 is something 我们've struggled 与 as well, is how do 你 control 对于 the individual identity versus the actual rank? So what I mean by 这 is, let's say there's a 研究 那 says 那 neurons in a certain 大脑 region fire to animals of 不同的 ranks according to the rank. Fire most of the alpha, 更少, 更少, 更少, 更少 down to the rank. Does 那 tell us 那 这 大脑 region encodes social rank? Maybe in a loose sense, 和 I'm sure 那 when rank issues come up, a lot of the 大脑 lights up 对于 不同的 reasons. 但 对于 example, let's say the amygdala 会 respond 更多 to the alpha, maybe 因为 it encodes social rank, 但 maybe also 因为 whoever is the dominant is the 一 who's most 可能 to have consequences. 和 so all of my interactions 与 the alpha are relatively high consequence, 和 so I'm sort of stressed out whenever I'm talking to the alpha, paying 注意力, 和 你 remember all the interactions 你 have 与 你的 boss 更多 so than someone else. There's an 注意力 hierarchy. Subordinates attend 更多 to dominants. 和 so it's almost hard to make 这 comparison 因为 it's not all flat. The clean experiment, which 我们 are still trying to do, it's difficult to do the perfect experiment, 会 be if 你 take an individual 和 change their rank. So 对于 example , I like to use 这 example 与 Barack Obama, so just indulge me. I know 那 这 is 从 a while ago, 但 once upon a time, I met Barack Obama 对于 a 非常 brief moment when he was president, 和 maybe there's some neurons 那 light up. Oh, wow. There's the Barack Obama/president neurons. 但 if they are identity neurons, once he was no longer president, if I was to be presented 与 Barack Obama, then they 会 still fire. If they were rank neurons, then maybe 之后 he was no longer president, it's just 这些 neurons fire to whoever is president now. 和 so I think 那 experiment is 非常 difficult to do 和 has not been done, 但 我们're working on it right now in another experiment where 我们 take animals, 和 they're living in groups, 和 我们 rank them all, 和 then 我们 rehouse them. So everybody has a rank 那 they start 与, then 我们 put all the alphas together, put all the betas together, et cetera, so 那 everybody forms a new rank. Then 你 have animals 那 went up a rank, went down a rank, 或 stayed the same 对于 every group. 和 so 那's something 那 我们're looking at right now.

安德鲁·休伯曼： So initially, 你 take a pool of animals, 和 then let's say 你 got 你的 number 一, 二, 三, four, just 对于 sake of simplicity.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Let's say I take the number four-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... lowest in 那-

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... hierarchy, 但 now I make them the top of a new hierarchy.

Dr. Kay Tye: 那's right.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Got it.

Dr. Kay Tye: 和 so it's 确实 preliminary, 和 我们'll see what happens, 但 我们're investigating. It seems 那 when 你 take alphas, intermediates, 或 subordinates 和 put them together 进入 new hierarchies, it takes them 不同的 amounts of time, 和 the dynamics are 非常 不同的 in forming the new hierarchy.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Hmm.

Dr. Kay Tye: 和 so-

安德鲁·休伯曼： In any kind of predictable way 那 你're willing to share, 或 is it just too early?

Dr. Kay Tye: I think it's too early, 但 I'll just say, I guess it seems like the intermediates 可能 be taking the longest amount of time-

安德鲁·休伯曼： Hmm

Dr. Kay Tye: ... to form the hierarchy.

安德鲁·休伯曼： They don't know where they sit in the hierarchy.

Dr. Kay Tye: They were flexible 或 something.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

Dr. Kay Tye: Whereas the dominants, they are going to duke it out, 和 then 我们're going to battle. There'll be defeat. It's quick. The fight doesn't last 那 long. Subordinates, 我们 have to still observe. 这 is all still being-- 我们'll see if everything replicates, 但 certainly the dynamics are 不同的. What the exact readouts, 我们're working on what the key features to see. 但 it's kind of uncanny 因为 这些 are genetically inbred animals 那 are all housed, everyone 应该 be the same theoretically, 但 这 makes me think 那 期间 certain developmental periods, rank is shaping 你的 long-lasting development. I think it's a 相似的 phenomenon, perhaps, to the older child, younger child phenomenon, where if 你're the oldest, 你 go 进入 the world, 和 你 have lots of 不同的 roles. 你 可能 be the bottom. 你're going to play on sports teams 和 be in 不同的 classes 和 have all 这些 jobs. 但 The leadership desire/potential skill seems to be correlated in a 非常 non-scientific way.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Is 那 right?

Dr. Kay Tye: The number of presidents 那's 经常 oldest 或 only children, 这 type of thing. It's a loose correlation. There's a lot of other reasons why it 可能 not be behavioral, 但 there's sort of fluffy correlations 关于 那. I think there's something to it, though. When plasticity is happening, 这 becomes 你的 most familiar state of assuming a certain role, 和 那 attractor state deepens 与 更多 time spent there.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I find 那 so fascinating. I've also observed, 和 I think I've seen a few papers on, I don't know how rigorous 这些 papers are, 那 youngest, 或 let's just say not oldest siblings, here 我们're setting aside single children 那 don't have any siblings, 但 那 youngest siblings do tend to quote unquote "break the mold" 更多 in terms of socio 和 cultural norms of the family. They venture further-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... in terms of experiences 和-

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... value 系统. They're 经常 seen as having had fewer constraints than the older sibling, which may-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... 或 may not be true.

Dr. Kay Tye: Uh-huh.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 但 那 the youngest siblings 经常 会 take on risk-

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... 那 older siblings won't.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Yeah.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 那's certainly been my observation.

Dr. Kay Tye: 更多 non-conformists.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Right. I'm a younger brother of an older sister, 但 then there was times in 我们的 childhood where she was out of the house, 和 I was at home just 与 my mom.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： So 那 sort of changes things. 和 这 is 非常 dynamic. I realize 我们're-

Dr. Kay Tye: 非常 dynamic

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... playing here in a kind of a loose space, 但-

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... 但 I find social rank stuff to be super interesting. I grew up in a big pack of mostly boys. 那's just how it worked out in my neighborhood at the time. 和 it was 非常 interesting 因为 it was 非常 clear it was a dynamic hierarchy where if 我们 were skateboarding, certain kids were alpha. If 我们 were playing soccer, other kids-

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... were alpha. If 我们 were doing anything artistic, if it was geeky knowledge 和 nerdy stuff, then it 可能've been somebody else-

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... who had the knowledge-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... 和 had the information 那 人们 wanted. So I think-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... dynamic hierarchies are 确实 interesting-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... 和 I think get us out of 那 更多 standard alpha, like chest-beating-

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... telling everyone what to do, dictatorial model.

Dr. Kay Tye: 和 这 is now fully out of any science land 和 进入 speculation opinion land, 但 I think 那 type of structure where when 你're doing 不同的 tasks, 不同的 个体 become the alpha 或 the leader 因为 it's based on competence, is 非常 healthy. I think structures where 你 have a locked down, 这 is the hierarchy where someone's the boss of 你 因为 of 这 一 skill, 但 then there's all 这些 other skills 那 they're not superior. They don't outrank 你 at. 和 so how do 你 work all 那 out? 和 so I think 那's also something 关于 keeping score, like what is the rank, right? 和 so 我们 did 这 experiment where 我们 designed a task. Animals are trained 那 a cue predicts reward delivery. Only 一 animal 可以 get it at a time. It's just a 非常 narrow place, so if 一 animal's getting it, 你 可以't get it. Then 我们 会 have four animals 那 are cage mates, four mice 那 are cage mates, 和 我们 会 have 二 of them duke it out at each point. 和 我们 know the ranks. The ranks are stable. They have a rank 一, 二, 三, four in the cage, 和 everybody does a round robin. Ones versus twos, ones versus threes, twos versus-

安德鲁·休伯曼： They fight.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah. Well, they do a round robin in 这 reward competition task. They're food deprived, 和 我们 present rewards. What happens? 和 so subordinates do win some of the times, even though dominants win 更多. They consistently win 更多. 和 我们 found 那 prefrontal cortical neurons, 你 could represent 非常 stably 和 decode which animal was dominant, regardless of the trial. 和 then when 你 looked at whether 我们 could decode competitive success, meaning who was going to win 那 next trial, so there's a new trial every 30 或 40 秒. 但 30 秒 之前, which is as far as 我们 可以 measure 因为 then 我们're 进入 the previous trial. As soon as the last trial ends, even 之前 the next trial ends, 你 可以 predict above chance s- significantly which animal's going to win the next trial.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Just based on the firing pattern of prefrontal cortical neurons.

Dr. Kay Tye: 那's right. Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼： So 你 可以 predict winners 和 losers. 你 可以 predict 和 understand where they are in the hierarchy as well based on the activation of neurons prior to the battle.

Dr. Kay Tye: 那's right.

安德鲁·休伯曼： It's like recording 从 the, by analogy, it's like recording 从 the prefrontal cortex of 二, let's say, business competitors-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... 或 martial arts competitors.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 你 可以 predict who's going to win based on the pattern of firing in their brains prior to the competition.

Dr. Kay Tye: 那's right. 和 so, 那 suggests all sorts of things. Number 一, it doesn't mean 这些 competitions are not independent. There's something 关于 the state of the animal. 和 when 我们 looked at is it just whoever won the previous trial, 那 did not account 对于-

安德鲁·休伯曼： Hmm

Dr. Kay Tye: ... 这. 和 so I thought 这 was 确实 interesting, 但 when 你 look at the decoding accuracy 对于 dominants versus subordinates 关于 who 会 win the next trial, 对于 dominants, it stays pretty flat. It just has to do 与, I think, 这 is my speculation of 我们的 数据, 那 they either are engaged 或 they're not engaged. The subordinates, the decoding accuracy, it's above chance, 但 then it shoots up somewhere 大约 closer to the cue presentation. 和 so my speculation 关于 那 is 那 the subordinates are looking at the dominants. The dominant doesn't look like they're going to go 对于 it. Okay. It looks like they're turning away. I'm going to go. I'm going to go. So it's not like they're both going out full every time. It's a calculation. Which trials, oh, he's not paying 注意力. It's like when 你're driving in traffic, 和 你're trying to find the moment to cut over, 和 你're waiting 对于 the person who's texting, 和 there's a big space, 和 then everybody's just getting in right here. 你 could just see, 你're looking 对于 clues 关于 the state of competition. 和 then the dominants, they are not looking at the subordinate. They're just doing whatever they feel like doing.

安德鲁·休伯曼： It's like there's a I think there's 那 一 scene in "Mad Men" where something happened in the work environment, 和 it was clear someone's account didn't sell 或 something didn't work out 对于 一 person versus the other. 和 I think 一 of the characters says to Don Draper, who's clearly 一 of the alphas in 那 work environment-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... by virtue of-

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... role 和 position, says, "I sometimes think 关于 the way 那 你 blank, blank, blank, blank," 和 he goes on 这 brief tirade 关于 how upset he was. 和 Draper says, "Well, I don't think 关于 你 at all."

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 then the elevator, I believe, closes. 和 it 确实 cemented his status in the office as somebody who's 确实 not paying much 注意力 to what other 人们 are doing. He's just making decisions according to what's going to be best 对于 the firm, 和 in some cases 对于 himself, 和 in some cases, both. So, I think 那's 本质上 what 你're talking 关于.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah. I think it's the nature of the structure. 那's what makes 你 the alpha, is 你 have other things 那 are occupying 你的 注意力. 和 你的 visionary status, hopefully, if 你're a productive, successful alpha, 和 对于 a sustainable group. 和 then everyone else is, they don't need to have the big picture. The reinforcement schedule is 不同的. I'm just looking 对于 validation. Am I playing my role okay? It's a 非常 不同的 mindset. I think, as a scientist, when 你're a trainee, sometimes 你're a supporting member on a team where 你're getting instruction, someone telling 你 what to do, versus the moment where 你 get 你的 own project. 和 maybe 你're working by yourself, maybe there's no 一 to command, 但 no 一's telling 你 what to do. 那 is, to me, 一 of the biggest thresholds to step over when 你're becoming a scientist 或 an investigator, is the 首先 time where 你 just do something 和 try an experiment no 一 told 你 to do. 和 it feels super weird. It feels like 你're sneaking 大约 或 something. 和 then, I think in today's mentorship chain, sometimes 那 happens too late. I think if 我们 could have 那 experience happen earlier, I think 那 会 only be good 对于 the future of 研究.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I agree. I was 非常 fortunate 那 my graduate advisor told me, "Look, I'm going to help 你, 但 I'm going to have 二 kids while 你're in the lab, 和 I'm not going to be 大约 a lot, so 你're going to have to figure it out. Don't burn the lab down. Don't kill yourself 与 any of the poisons in the lab." 和 then my postdoc advisor, the late 和 great Ben Barres, largely treated the postdocs as junior professors 从 an early stage.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 I remember thinking-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... "He 可以't control the experiments I'm going to do. 这 is up to me." 和 a great number of us who were 训练 与 him at 那 time went on to have 我们的 own lab, so I think 那 there's 确实 something 重要 to 那 model. 和 of course, 我们're discussing the 研究 field, 但 这 could be exported to any number of 不同的 fields. 因为 what 那些 mentors were 本质上 训练 us to do was to assume the role 那 我们 会 eventually have, as opposed to be subordinates. Do 你 watch "Chimp Empire?"

Dr. Kay Tye: So actually, just 这 周, yesterday 和 the 天 之前 这, a postdoc interview who worked 与 the chimps on "Chimp Empire"- ... visited 和 interviewed him in my lab 和 talked 关于 his work. So, I have not seen "Chimp Empire," 但 it's at the 非常 top of my to-do list.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Oh, God. It's so good. I don't want to spend the next 20 分钟 talking 关于 it, 但 你 see all sorts of interesting behavior, 非常 relevant to human behavior. Hierarchies, yes, 但 also altruistic behavior, allopathic grooming. In chimp culture, as I've learned 从 the show, assuming it's accurate, 那 who grooms who is 非常 重要. 和 there's all sorts of interesting maneuvers 那 subordinates make, 和 there's all sorts of interesting displays of vigor 那 the alpha makes to remind 人们 那 they are the alpha. 和 then as they age 或 make mistakes of judgment, the subordinates also 会 feign deference. They'll be like, "Oh, yeah, 你're the alpha. 你're 确实 tough," 和 secretly they're plotting to replace the alpha. So, whether 或 not 我们're talking 关于 a scene 从 "Mad Men" 或 我们're talking 关于 "Chimp Empire," 或 我们're talking 关于 研究 laboratories 或- ... any other landscape, kindergarten-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... I think 这些 回路 are active in all of us, 和 the sooner 那 我们 acknowledge 那些 和 try 和 find ones 那 generalize to the goodness of as many members as 可能, 我们're not doing 我们的 task. 但 clearly, 你're doing the task. So, okay, social rank is something 那 我们 need to acknowledge, no doubt. Which actually leads me to what 可能 seem like a disparate topic, 但 一 那 I know 我们're both 非常 interested in 和 那 你're focusing on now, which is psychedelics.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm. Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 因为 一 of the interesting things 关于 psychedelics is their capacity to 增加 neuroplasticity. 但 also some of the psychedelics, 和 I realize MDMA is not a classic psychedelic, 但 they are classified as empathogens. They 增加 empathy 对于 self 和 others. So, what are 你 looking 进入 与 psychedelics? Which psychedelics, 和 what brought 你 to the 研究 of psychedelics? 和 by the way, I have participated in clinical, 因为 人们 会 wonder, I have participated in clinical trials 对于 psilocybin 和 MDMA. I don't recommend 人们 do psychedelics recreationally. I do think they hold great promise 对于 the treatment of depression 和 trauma, 但 人们 need to be careful. There are certain 人们 who could not 和 应该 not take psychedelics 因为 it 会 be genuinely unsafe 对于 them psychologically, 尤其是 young 人们. So, there's my disclaimer.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 但 they are fascinating compounds.

Dr. Kay Tye: So I guess I've 总是 been interested in psychedelics. I think I wrote my undergraduate thesis 关于 hallucinations produced by psychedelics, psychotic breaks, 和 REM sleep, 和 schizophrenia. Just comparing what is the common thread when 我们的 大脑 creates a reality 那 is not objectively there. 和 psychedelics, of course, is a way 那 我们 可以 experience 那 和 remember it 和 recall it in a way 那's 非常 difficult 与 REM sleep 和 sometimes 与 psychotic breaks. Obviously, schizophrenia is not something 那 你 可以 transiently give yourself 和 have 那 experience. So I think having the ability to move 进入 other 大脑 states is what makes it so attractive. I think the other component is the plasticity. 你 可以 have an experience, 和 perhaps the 首先-hand experience is 你 have an epiphany 那 你 take 与 你, it's life-changing, 和 你的 life habits are completely 不同的 对于 a long-lasting way 之后 这 singular experience is 一 of the things 那 makes it so 不同的 从 all of the other therapeutic treatments 那 我们've got, 或 most of the other ones, I'd say. 和 so 对于 me, right now there's a lot of work going on exploring psychedelics as a therapy 对于 various 不同的 conditions, disease states. I think 那's great. I think it's 确实 重要 work. I'm glad a lot is being done on 那. I think my 专注 is to turn over some rocks 那 可能 not have been turned over yet, 和 just to get 确实 down at a quantitative, rigorous mathematical 水平 of what is a hallucination. 对于 example, when I ask 这 question, what is a hallucination, I'm interested in the actual cellular mechanisms. 我们 think 关于 neurons having signal-to-noise 和 neuromodulation as changing 那. Are 我们 just changing the signal-to-noise ratio 和 then pattern completing all the noise, 和 那's what a hallucination is? 我们're just reinterpreting noise 和 putting existing maps. Everything's fitting to an existing mold 或 map 那 我们've already got 那 then appears as some hallucination. 和 maybe it doesn't have to be a hallucination. There's also obviously some various 不同的 thresholds of the psychedelic experience. 但 all 这些 clinical statements, 这些 human self-reported qualitative descriptions of the psychedelic experience. Things like having just 更多 positive outlook, uniting oneself 和 other, clarity of the world, 更多 labile in thoughts, 更多 flexible thoughts. 我们 are trying to just create actual ways to test them. So 对于 example, 这 idea 关于 what is going on in 你的 心智 when 你're having a psychedelic experience, all of 这些 不同的 states 可能 feel 更多 labile. It may be the transition probabilities between 不同的 大脑 states of happy, sad, nostalgic. Maybe it's just all looser, 和 so 你 可以 access everything 因为 the transition probabilities are just high. Another possibility is 那, 和 maybe it's dose-dependent, at a certain dose, 你 go 进入 another 大脑 state. 和 so previously, in the same project 那 I was just telling 你 关于 rank, 我们 were recording 对于 prefrontal cortical neurons 和 looking at all the behaviors. 和 so the behaviors 对于 representing social rank, 我们 don't know what they are, so 我们 used computer vision to extract a bunch of behavioral motifs 和 then tried to understand what's the best model 那 会 predict what the animal's going to do next. Not just wins 和 losses, 但 all the subtle gestures. Are 我们 going to fight? Are 我们 going to give it up? Are 我们 going to back off? 和 predict the behaviors 从 prefrontal cortical activity. 和 the best model 那 我们 found was something called a hidden Markovian model, which 本质上 just means 那 there are hidden states. 你 可能 think of them as moods. 你 可能 give them some other name, 但 I'll use moods loosely. It's not perfect, 但 那's 一 way 那 helps me think 关于 hidden states, where 你 have certain statistics of behaviors 那 你 会 produce. If I'm sad, there's certain things I'm going to do. It's a 不同的 statistic than when I'm happy, 不同的 probability of going surfing if I'm sad 或 happy 或 things like 那. So 我们 basically found 那 there are a certain number of hidden states, 和 so if 你 are on psychedelics, 会 那 change the number of states 或 just the transitions between them? 我们 also found in 我们的 prefrontal cortical representation 那 there's a certain distance of the representation of self 和 other in 这 dimensionality reduced activity space. So 对于 mumbo jumbo, 那 just means there's a representation of self 和 other, there's some quantifiable distance in abstract terms in the 大脑, 和 我们 可以 quantify if 那些 representations get closer together 和 merge.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Of self versus other.

Dr. Kay Tye: Of self versus other. So 那's something 那 我们 会 be looking 对于-

安德鲁·休伯曼： Huh

Dr. Kay Tye: ... if 你 are putting psychedelics on. 这些 are questions 那 I'm interested in 那 are under construction. So right now 我们're recording 从 animals while 我们're giving them psilocybin using neuropixels recordings. So 我们're recording 从 thousands of neurons in prefrontal cortex 和 other parts of cortex 因为 the shank goes to lots of places, 和 looking at how animals respond in a conflict task. So there's trials where there's a cue 那 predicts reward, a cue 那 predicts shock, then there's some trials where both cues are presented 和 both outcomes are presented. 和 the reason 对于 这 conflict trial is 那 actually if 你 give moderate to low doses of psilocybin, 或 most drugs, honestly, animals 可以 do 这 Even on lots of 不同的 drugs, most 人们 可以 still eat food 和 avoid getting hit by 这 truck. There are exceptions, of course, 但 generally speaking, there's a lot of 不同的 大脑 states where 你 可以 still do 这些 essential functions pretty robustly. 但 it's 关于 what happens in the 更多 ambiguous zone. What happens when there's a conflict, 和 what do 你 do? When it's a little gray, I think 那's when 你 可以 see a shift in valence assignment. So, 那's something 那 我们've been looking 对于 和 trying to see if in clinical 研究, they're exploring set 和 setting as maybe the factors 那 have in the past historically given 非常 unpredictable outcomes 对于 psychedelic therapies. It's 可能 那 it's set 和 setting. It's also 可能 那 there's individual variability. It's 可能 那 there are biomarkers 那 可以 predict which 个体 会 be well-suited 对于 这 type of therapy. 和 so 那些 are also things 那 我们're interested in.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I find 这 so fascinating, 和 I just want to applaud 你 again 对于 taking on 这些 hard questions. 这些 are fairly high-水平 questions. Certainly, there's a lot of clinical trials exploring psychedelics like psilocybin 和 their role in treating 心理健康. 和 there's, at the same time, a real dearth of 研究 exploring mechanistically how 这些 compounds are working. I do want to tip my hat to all the folks 那 have explored dendritic changes 和 cellular changes in the 水平 of neurons 和 on. 但 in terms of 这些 higher-水平 states of self versus other recognition in psychedelics, 那些 are tough questions 那 need to be addressed mechanistically, 和 it's clear 你're doing 那. I think 这 notion 那 你're testing of whether 或 not psychedelics reveal 更多 accessibility 或 lability, as 你 described it, between 不同的 states, like, "Oh, wow, I 可以 actually move 从 sad to happy." There's a route 对于 那.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 你 可以 experience 那-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... as opposed to just being told 那.

Dr. Kay Tye: Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼： "Hey, when 你're feeling sad, feel 你的..." The field of psychology, 尤其是 pop psychology, is in a real crisis right now, in my opinion, 因为 我们're told to feel 我们的 feelings, 但 then 我们're also told to not react to 我们的 feelings, which sounds great, 但 if 那些 feelings get intense enough, 那's 非常 hard 对于 most 人们 to do. So it's feel 你的 feelings, 但 don't stay 与 it. There's the cathartic model, like feel 你的 feelings 和 get them out, screaming 和 et cetera. 和 then there's the no, the 更多 你 engage a neural 通路, the stronger 那 neural 通路 gets, 和 因此 你're just going to feel 更多 anger. There's a lot of conflict right now in terms of the popular psychology version of 这, whereas the clinical fields, I think, have an understanding 那 hasn't been translated. I think 一 other thing 关于 psychedelics 那 is interesting is 那 the transitions 进入 states is also 更多 labile. If 你 start feeling a little sad, there's the potential to feel 非常, 非常 sad 和 to go 进入 a state of sadness of an intensity 你've 从不 experienced 之前. Which, by the way, could be therapeutically beneficial. I think there's some 证据 对于 那, provided there's adequate support 之前, 期间, 和 之后 那些 sessions. 但 I think most 人们, when they're not on psychedelics, 会 feel emotions 那 are uncomfortable 和 会 do all sorts of things to try 和 avoid 那些 emotions. So I'm not speaking as a clinician here, 但 again, I think what the range 和 specificity of questions 那 你're asking 关于 psychedelics, I find so exciting. Another reason I'll say 那 我们 want to have 你 back to discuss 那些 findings when they come out. Let's talk a little bit 关于 你.

Dr. Kay Tye: Okay.

安德鲁·休伯曼： I've known 你 对于 a while, 但 to be honest, I think 这 is the longest conversation 我们've ever had-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... which is 一 of the reasons I love doing 这 podcast. I get to sit down 与 colleagues 和 have intellectual/other conversations of substantial depth 那 I wouldn't have the opportunity to have elsewhere. I know enough 关于 你, 然而, to know 那 你've been involved in various things. I'm not going to say peripheral to science, 但 你 have other interests as well. As I recall, 你 have been a yoga instructor, 或 你've been involved in the wellness, fitness community industry. Tell us 关于 那, 和 then I'm also curious 关于 how 你 structure 你的 天, 你的 routines, given 那 你're a parent of 二 young children, 你 run a 非常 large laboratory operating at the 非常 highest 水平, 和 of course, 你 value 重要 things like relationships 和 relationship to self 和 health 和 all 这些 sorts of things. So, not to make it too open-ended, 但 tell us of 你的 interests 和 of 你的 relationship to wellness 和 fitness 和 wellbeing.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah. I guess, everybody comes to their calling in what feels like a path 那 你 couldn't predict. 但 when 你 look at it outside, I guess both of my parents are professors, so it doesn't look super surprising 那 I'm a professor, 但 那's not how it felt to me. When I was in high school, I was a total rebel. I just threw parties at my house when my parents weren't there. Sorry everybody who's listening, I don't recommend 那. 但 I just cared 关于 having fun 和 sports, 和 I think school wasn't maybe challenging enough 对于 me at 那 time. I didn't necessarily recognize 那 was what it was, 但 I've 总是 enjoyed being 确实 active, 和 那's what makes me feel good. I definitely agree 与 stuff 你've said on 你的 podcast 关于 having 运动 routines in the 早晨 那 确实 influence the rest of 你的 天. I didn't 总是 运动 in the 早晨. I have 不同的 phases. 但 之后 I was an undergrad, I took some time to travel 大约 Australia, backpack 大约 Australia, live in some 非常 remote places, spend some time living in a tent. Then I was a yoga instructor Then I went to grad school in the Bay Area. I had a 非常 active hobby of... I was a semi-professional breakdancer. I was 非常 进入 breakdancing.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 确实?

Dr. Kay Tye: 确实 competitive breakdancer-

安德鲁·休伯曼： 确实?

Dr. Kay Tye: ... in the Bay Area. Yes. 我们 did halftime shows, 或 I guess technically third quarter timeout shows at Oracle Stadium 对于 the Golden State Warriors. I was the 一 girl who could do a windmill, so they 会 use me. They're like, "Okay, windmills." Go.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Someone's going to find footage of 这.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah. There's some 非常 mediocre footage of me breakdancing, 和 I was just 确实 进入 it. 但 I think 那's where my work-life balance passion comes 从. I talk 关于 it a lot, I think 关于 it a lot, 和 人们 say to me all the time, "Well, is 这 确实 true? Why do 你 preach all 这 work-life balance stuff when 你 must have been a workaholic at some point in 你的 life?" 和 I think when I was younger, I definitely didn't like the idea 那 你 had to only be 一 thing. I wanted to be so many things. I couldn't decide. It was a huge challenge. I was going to be a writer. I was going to be a yoga instructor. I 从不 确实 thought I was going to be a professional dancer. I just wasn't good enough, 和 there's not careers to be made 从 dancing, 确实. It's 非常 difficult. 但 had a lot of other interests, 和 I wanted to prove... I don't know who I wanted to prove it to. I think myself at 首先, 和 then eventually it made me feel like I 应该 maybe prove it to everyone, 那 你 可以 have a 非常 whole life 和 not sacrifice everything. 你 don't have to choose between family 和 career 或 personal life. 你 可以 have them all. 你 just have to decide 那 it's a priority 和 own 那 和 make 那些 choices on a daily basis, 和 it comes down to time management. 和 so it's been a 非常, even though it looks like, oh, Kay just likes to have fun 和 have all 这些 other hobbies, it's 重要 因为 I think 那 我们 need 更多 role models, 尤其是 in academic science, where 人们 bring their whole selves to their job. 和 even though 你的 job is a 非常 具体的 thing, 因为 你 have a role as a mentor, 和 I suppose the mentor-apprenticeship relationship has evolved, 和 I've lots of comments 关于 那 too, in academia. I still think ultimately when I was working in someone else's lab 和 I definitely looked up to them. They were the role model, obviously. I'm looking at, yes, their science, 但 I'm looking at how they make 这 all work. How are 你 doing 这? How do they live their lives, 和 how do they approach balancing it all? 和 so I guess I just wanted to put some 更多 数据 points on the scoreboard where 人们 are having lots of hobbies 和 other non-work activities while still making meaningful contributions. 和 it doesn't make 你 更少 of a scientist 或 更少 of a person 因为 你're a whole human.

安德鲁·休伯曼： If anything, perhaps it makes 人们 better scientists.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah. Definitely.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Did 你的 exploration of yoga 和/或 breakdancing inform anything 关于 你的 研究, 或 was it 确实 关于 resetting 你的 心智 和 身体 in healthy ways so 那 你 could return to the lab feeling excited 关于 returning to the lab?

Dr. Kay Tye: I think I've 总是 been of the mindset where sometimes things don't go well in a certain arena, 和 it doesn't feel good to have all 你的 eggs in 那 basket. Stuff goes wrong. Sometimes the experiment doesn't work. Sometimes 你 find something out, 你 lose the whole dataset. Bad news happens in the lab, 和 I think 你 just want to diversify 你的 portfolio so 那 你的 happiness portfolio is not entirely based on 你的 accomplishments at work. I think 我们 just want to have 更多 elements. 和 the same thing goes 对于 at 一 point when I was 确实 进入 dancing, I got a 非常 serious injury, 和 it took 这 huge part of my life away 从 me. I was so glad I had work. Thank God I have work. I have something I 可以 do else. 和 I just think having a lot of 不同的 parts of 你的 life makes 你 更多 flexible, 更多 creative, 更多 awake, 更多 engaged, 和 when I don't... I definitely have been a workaholic. When I was a postdoc, an assistant professor, period, definitely did not make enough time 对于 myself to have a rich personal life at certain points. 和 非常 quickly I just wither away 进入 a shell of a human, an empty shell of the person I used to be, 和 it's noticeable. Everybody 可以 feel it. 你 可以't pretend. Everyone 那 works 与 你 feels it eventually. 和 so I think 那's a big thing. 和 so as I've taken feedback 从 my anonymous lab surveys 和 other forms of feedback 和 just reflecting, it's clear taking 你的 lifestyle 和 having agency over designing 你的 lifestyle to be ideal 对于 你 is super 重要. So a typical 天 对于 me 可能 look like, okay, the last workday, let's say I woke up, actually, so it was early high tide, so I got to wake up in the dark, pack up my bags, go surfing, 和 then get home 之前 surf, see my friends in the 水, 和 I think surfing is a lot of things. It's 运动, it's a 寒冷 plunge, it's photons, some of 你的 favorite things. Maybe a little bit meditative, maybe a bit of some social community. Then, 和 I go every time at the same 天, so there's the same group of 人们. Then I go home, make the kids their snacks, breakfast, drop them off at school. Then I go to lab 和 then run lab meeting, 和 have meetings. Most of my 天 when I'm at work is spent meeting 与 人们, drawing on a whiteboard, mostly meeting 与 my trainees is what I like to spend most of my time on. Of course, there's other stuff 那 gets in the mix, like administrative, whatever. 和 then- Come home at a pretty early 小时, pick up my kids, make dinner, 和 then go to sleep kind of early. Kind of boring 这些 天. 那's my typical 天.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Sounds exciting to me. I think if 一 were to stay up late, then 一 feels sleep-deprived if they wake up early. If 你 wake up late, 你're missing out on the early 早晨 sunrise, the surf, all of 那. I've 从不 surfed. Actually, once. I paddled out once when I was in college, 和 there was no surf, so I 会 paddle back in. 但 I keep hearing 关于 这 surfing thing, 和 人们 seem to love it. 那's 一 of my concerns is 那 if 你 fall in love 与 it, 你're going to spend a lot of time out in the ocean, right? Clearly, it's all serving 你 well, 和 it must be wonderful to be a child in 你的 home. I 可以 imagine how much fun it is 和 how interesting it is. 你 mentioned several times mentorship 和 trainees, 和 it's clear 那 reshaping the landscape of science 对于 the next generation coming up is something 那's of real passion to 你. I take great pleasure in asking 这 因为 it wasn't long ago 那 你 和 I were graduate students 和 postdocs 和 更多 或 更少 the same vintage, right? 和 as is the case, 人们 retire, 人们 die. 这 is the reality of life, 和 人们 move up the ranks as 你 have. So what are some of the things 那 你're most passionate 关于 in terms of shaping the future of science? In particular 研究 science, 但 maybe 更多 broadly, 和 what are 你 doing 关于 it?

Dr. Kay Tye: I think 那 the academic culture has evolved, 和 I guess I 应该 start by just saying 首先, as I was driving over here, it was just a beautiful drive, 和 I'm just thinking it is so cool 那 我们 get to do 这 对于 a living. Isn't it amazing 那 studying whatever I find interesting to me is something 那 I 可以 have a secure job 对于? 和 then just thinking 关于 cool ideas 和 directions 和 talking 关于 it, stuff 那 I 会 do 对于 free is 确实 my job, 和 I just am so grateful to have 那, 和 I think there are a lot of beautiful sides of academia 那 sometimes don't get the 空气 time 那 they deserve. 和 of course, there's a lot of doom 和 gloom. There 总是 has been. When I was a grad student, there was lots of doom 和 gloom in the ether. There's plenty now. I think perhaps it has become a little bit direr, the plight of academia right now. There's been a nationwide drop of postdocs in general. There's just a mass exodus away 从 academia to industry, 和 I think 那 reflects the changing environment. 和 so I guess when I was a graduate student, I had 这 book in my desk drawer called "Advice 对于 a Young Investigator," written by Ramona Cahill, which is a great book. It's thin. It's a quick read. It's got some whimsical anecdotes 和 some 重要 insights, I think. Also, a lot of misogyny. 非常 much glamorizing workaholic tendencies, 和 there was definitely a picture of a scientist. 这 was the way to succeed. Other options not 确实 offered, 和 I 确实 struggled 与 那. I had a lot of imposter syndrome coming up 通过. If someone asked me when did I stop having imposter syndrome, I think maybe 2021. 非常 recently. I think I spent 20 years of my career having imposter syndrome, wondering if I was good enough, if I was going to make it. Do I have what it takes? 和 constantly doubting 和 questioning it. 和 I think 那 it 会've been nice to not feel so alone at 那 period of my career. So I think some of the things 那 were described in 这 original book were 确实 重要 对于 academic 研究 to be born as a thing. Like how do 我们 make 这 be a thing 那 你 可以 get paid 对于? How do 我们 make 这 be a job 那 人们 get to have? 和 then at 这 point, I think most 人们 会 agree 我们 need science. Science is 重要. 我们 benefit 从 science. 和 I think at 这 point, it's not so clear 那 我们 need elitism as much as 我们 did 之前. 我们're looking at a crumbling academic culture where 我们're struggling to retain 人们, 和 it's not a great sustainable dynamic. I think trainees are not getting compensated well enough 或 treated well enough 那 it's an attractive choice. 和 so I think 我们 need to sort of make a change. 和 nothing wrong necessarily 关于 the intentions 那 were set hundreds of years ago, 但 things change, 和 我们're where 我们 are now, 和 things are changing 非常 quickly. So I guess I get to make 一 of my childhood dreams, which is to write a book, come true. 和 一 of the benefits of social media, I did have a tweet kind of just sort of spontaneously ranting 关于 how 这 book is problematic 和 it's 非常 misogynistic, 和 maybe 我们 need another book 对于 other types of 人们 那 makes 人们 feel 更多 included. 和 这 tweet went 大约, 和 I didn't expect anything to come of 这. I'm just living my daily life, 和 then my DM suddenly had literary agents 和 a book deal, 和 then okay, now I'm writing 这 book. 和 so I'm 关于 halfway 通过, 但 I think the goal of the book, I don't 确实 have time 对于 这 project, to be honest, 但 it's such an 重要 project to me. I think 那 I I want to see academia be 一 of the healthiest places. Why is it 秒 only to the military in the pervasiveness of sexual misconduct 和 things like-

安德鲁·休伯曼： Is 那 right?

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah. Did 你 know 那? So actually, factoid is academia is- the military is worse in terms of sexual misconduct, retaliation issues 那 occur, 但 academia is 秒. 和 it makes 你 wonder, what are the parameters 那 make 这 type of abuse so rampant? I think 一 of the obvious ones is the clear ranks, how stable the ranks are, how the power structure of academia 和 the military, 非常 fixed, not super debatable, not difficult to move 这些. The ranks are there. 和 the power structure is 非常 skewed, 和 那些 are the ingredients 那 facilitate abuse. 和 so I think in the military, I could see a 非常 good argument 对于 why 那 strict, rigid hierarchical structure is necessary. There's not time 对于 making mistakes. Get it. 但 与 academia, there's time. It's not a war. 我们're just studying stuff 那 我们 think is cool. Why is such a rigid hierarchy 与 such devastating consequences necessary? I 会 argue maybe it's not. 和 I think I've been spending a lot of time thinking 关于 这 对于 myself. I found 这 professional leadership coach I love, 和 just thinking 关于 sustainability. How do 我们 make a sustainable ecosystem? 和 it's not something 你 find in a lot of leadership management literature 那 I've been exposed to. So I'll take a note 从 the podcast 和 say, if anyone knows of literature 那 talks 关于 developing sustainable ecosystems within leadership 和 management, I 会 love to hear 关于 那 in the comments, 但 I think 那's a big hole. 人们 think 关于 making things stable, the power structure 应该 be stable, 但 actually being flexible 和 dynamic is what gives 系统 resilience 和 flexibility to survive. 和 right now, all the cracks in the towers of academia are showing, 和 it's time to see if are 我们 going to adapt 和 survive, 或 are 我们 going to crumble?

安德鲁·休伯曼： There's a lot to unpack there, 和 I'm grateful 那 你're drilling 进入 all of 那 与, I'm sure, the same rigor 和 注意力 to asking the 确实 critical questions 那 你 have in 你的 lab. Certainly, I observe the landscape changing 非常 rapidly. I think there's also a lot to be learned 和 to explore 那 exports to other professions. I certainly believe 那 the 更多 首先-time opportunities to experience the beauty of doing 研究 和 biology in particular, 因为 那's what I'm familiar 与, the 更多 可能 那 我们 are as a field of 研究 和 science to make 更多 fundamental discoveries. In other words, the 更多 人们 那 get the experience of trying science-

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... doing exploratory 研究 science, the 更多 可能 我们 are to pull 从 那 pool, 和 within 那 pool, there 会 be 人们 of competence, talent, 和 also gifted. 我们 just sort of 增加 the size of the net.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yep.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 the net, of course, is netting something 非常 具体的, which is 你 和 I both know 那 while 训练 certainly matters, knowledge is 重要, 那 ultimately, love of craft 和 passion, 和 just being tickled by 那 研究 bug. Once 那 neuron gets tickled, 那 lets us see something 对于 the 首先 time 或 know something down the microscope 或 in a 数据 plot 或 something, there's 确实 no going back. So I want to be 非常 clear 那 I loudly applaud 你的 efforts to extend the experience of 研究 to 人们. 和 earlier, 你 were telling me 那 你're doing 这, 那 many of the 人们 in 你的 lab are 首先-time researchers. They didn't come 通过 the pedigree of 研究.

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah. No, 我们 do a lot of outreach. 关于 25% of my lab 这 summer was 首先-time 研究 experiences, 和 so 我们've been 确实 privileged to have the bandwidth to support 那. I 会 say, though, on the same tip, I think what 你've done 与 这 podcast is incredible. 你've made millions of 人们 who didn't have access to science 或 neuroscience be fascinated 与 neuroscience. 和 now imagine, what if every person 那 listened to 这 podcast 和 thought, "这 is such a great podcast. I wish I could do some neuroscience." Could do it 与 some not full-time. What if they could contribute in any, just whatever 水平 那 they wanted to? 那's so much 更多 contribution 那 我们're currently missing out on 因为 there's so many barriers to be able to contribute to science. 和 I think removing the ones 那 are 确实 there, as well as the ones 那 are just perceived to be there is so powerful. 但 the proof is in the pudding. The proof is in 这 podcast. How many 人们 could fall in love 与 science if they were given a chance to?

安德鲁·休伯曼： Well, thank 你 对于 那. It is indeed a labor of love 对于 me. 和 there are opportunities, maybe 我们'll provide a link to a couple of them, where certain projects in neuroscience are crowdsourcing 数据 analysis. It's actually quite fun. There's the Connectome project where 你 可以-

Dr. Kay Tye: Yes

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... trace neurons. It's actually 非常, 非常 pleasing. 你 可以 do it while listening to podcasts-

Dr. Kay Tye: Yes

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... 或 a book. Kids 可以 do it. 你're tracing 这些 neurons, basically filling in lines. It's like a-

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... coloring book.

Dr. Kay Tye: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 和 你're contributing To the parcellation of understanding the structure of the 大脑-

Dr. Kay Tye: Yeah

安德鲁·休伯曼： ... including the human 大脑. 和 没有 那 crowdsourcing, it's just not going to happen. There are efforts to make machine learning do it, 和 to do it 通过 AI, 但 there's a lot to be gained 从 having actual humans do 这 那 那些 technologies don't quite yet approximate. So 我们'll provide a link to some of 那些 projects. 但 listen, Kay, Dr. Thai, of course, I want to thank 你 so much. 首先 of all, 对于 coming here today 和 sharing so much knowledge, 和 also being willing to go 进入 some places 那 were, by virtue of my questions, a little speculative, 和 确实 think 关于 那些 和 address 那些 通过 the lens of deep mechanistic understanding of how 这些 回路 work, 和 to make it clear to 人们. 你的 enthusiasm 对于 science is infectious in the most positive sense of the word, 和 I know 那 so many 人们 are going to benefit 从 你的 knowledge, 和 also 从 the work 那 你've been doing in 你的 laboratory. I've seen 你的 star rise, 和 it's still going, 和 it's just remarkable 和 extraordinary, 但 I must say, not at all surprising. So, 那, 和 你的 advocacy work, 和 对于 all 你 do, 和 那 你're doing, on behalf of myself 和 everyone listening, I just want to extend a genuine 和 确实 heartfelt thanks. Thank 你.

Dr. Kay Tye: Thank 你 so much, 和 it's been such an honor to be on the Huberman Lab 播客. It's legendary, so thank 你 so much 对于 having me.

安德鲁·休伯曼： Absolutely. 我们'll do it again. Thank 你 对于 joining me 对于 today's discussion all 关于 the biology of social interactions 与 Dr. Kay Thai. To learn 更多 关于 her work 和 to follow her on social media, please see the links in the show note captions. If 你're learning 从 和/或 enjoying 这 podcast, please subscribe to 我们的 YouTube channel. 那's a terrific zero-cost way to support us. In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify 和 Apple. 和 on both Spotify 和 Apple, 你 可以 leave us up to a five-star review. Please check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning 和 throughout today's episode. 那's the best way to support 这 podcast. If 你 have questions 或 comments 关于 the podcast, 或 topics 或 guests 那 你'd like to suggest 对于 the Huberman Lab 播客, please put 那些 in the comments section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. If 你're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. So 那's Instagram, Twitter, now called X, LinkedIn, Facebook, 和 Threads. 和 on all 那些 platforms, I discuss science 和 science-related tools, some of which overlaps 与 the content of the Huberman Lab 播客, 但 much of which is distinct 从 the content covered on the Huberman Lab 播客. Again, 那's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. If 你 haven't already subscribed to 我们的 monthly Neural Network Newsletter, 我们的 Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost newsletter 那 includes podcast summaries 和 方案 as short 一- to 三-page PDFs. 对于 instance, 我们 have zero-cost 方案 对于 improving sleep, 对于 improving 多巴胺 function, 对于 主动冷暴露, 对于 fitness, 对于 learning 和 neuroplasticity, 和 much 更多. To sign up 对于 the newsletter, simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab, scroll down to Newsletter, 和 supply 你的 email. Again, the newsletter is completely zero cost, 和 I want to emphasize 那 我们 do not share 你的 email 与 anybody. Thank 你 once again 对于 joining me 对于 today's discussion 与 Dr. Kay Thai. 和 last 但 certainly not least, thank 你 对于 你的 interest in science.