肠道感知与肠脑轴的科学 | Diego Bohórquez 博士

Please note 那 这 transcript is not in its final form 和 会 be edited.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab 播客 where 我们 discuss science 和 science-based tools 对于 everyday life.

I'm Andrew Huberman 和 I'm a professor of 神经生物学 和 ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Diego Borque. Dr. Diego Borque is a professor of medicine 和 神经生物学 at Duke University. He did his 训练 in gastrointestinal physiology 和 nutrition 和 later neuroscience, 和 by combining 那 unique 训练 和 expertise, he's considered a pioneer 和 leader in so-called gut sensing 或 the gut 大脑 axis. Now, when most 人们 hear the words gut-大脑 axis, they immediately think of the so-called microbiome, which is extremely 重要, 但 那 is not the topic of Dr. Borque expertise. Dr. Borque focuses on the actual sensing 那 occurs within 一's gut, just as 一 会 sense light 与 their eyes 或 sound waves 与 their ears 对于 hearing. 我们的 gut contains 受体 那 respond to 具体的 components of food, including amino acids, fats, sugars, 和 other aspects of food including 温度, acidity, 和 other micronutrients 那 are contained in food 那 give 我们的 gut the clear picture of what is happening at the 水平 of the types 和 qualities of food 那 我们 ingest, 和 then communicate 那 below 我们的 conscious detection to 我们的 大脑 in order to drive 具体的 patterns of thinking, emotion 和 behavior.

和 of course, everybody has heard of 我们的 so-called gut sense 或 我们的 ability to believe 或 feel certain things based on perceptions 那 are below 或 somehow 不同的 从 conventional language. Today, Dr. Borque teaches us 关于 all aspects of gut sensing, how it occurs at the 水平 of 具体的 neurons 和 neural 回路, how the 大脑 responds to 那, how 具体的 foods 和 components of food impact not just 我们的 feeling of digestion 或 feeling good 或 bad 关于 what 我们 ate, 但 indeed how 我们 feel overall, how safe 我们 feel, how excited 我们 feel, whether 或 not 我们 feel depressed 或 sad, angry, 或 happy. Today's discussion, I promise 你, is unique among all discussions of neuroscience, at least 那 I've heard previously in 那 it combines 二 seemingly disparate fields, nutrition 和 neuroscience. Indeed, today's discussion gets 进入 how 不同的 foods 和 food combinations impact how 我们 feel 和 what 我们 crave 和 what 我们 tend to avoid.

我们 also get to hear the absolutely extraordinary story of Dr. Borches upbringing in the Amazon jungle 和 how his knowledge 和 intuition 关于 plants has influenced his science 和 how the incredible science 那 his laboratory is doing relates to all of us 和 我们的 ability to better tap 进入 我们的 gut sense. 之前 我们 begin, I'd like to emphasize 那 这 podcast is separate 从 my teaching 和 研究 walls at Stanford. It is 然而 part of my desire 和 effort to bring zero cost to consumer information 关于 science 和 science related tools to the general public. In keeping 与 那 theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. 我们的 首先 sponsor is JoVE. JoVE makes medical grade red light therapy devices. Now, if there's 一 thing 那 I've consistently emphasized on 这 podcast, it's the incredible impact 那 light meaning photons 可以 have on 我们的 心理健康 和 身体健康.

Red 和 near infrared light has been shown to have profound effects on improving cell health, which 可以 help 与 faster 肌肉 恢复, boosting healthier 皮肤, 减少 pain 和 炎症, 增强 sleep, 和 much 更多. What sets Juve apart is 那 it uses clinically effective wavelengths, emits a safe 和 effective dose of red 和 near infrared light, 和 most importantly, offers the only true medical grade red light panel available. I personally try to use the handheld juve Go unit as it's called every 天 和 尤其是 when I'm on the road traveling. If 你'd like to try JoVE, 你 可以 go to jove.com/huberman. 那's JOO vv.com/huberman. JoVE is offering an exclusive discount to Huberman Lab 播客 listeners 与 up to $400 off jev products. Again, 那's jo.com/huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by element. Element is an electrolyte drink 那 has everything 你 need. 那 means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, 和 potassium in the correct amounts 和 ratios 和 nothing 你 don't, which means no sugar.

Now, I 和 others on 这 podcast have talked 关于 the critical importance of hydration 对于 proper 大脑和身体 functioning. Even a slight degree of dehydration 可以 diminish cognitive 和 身体表现. It's also 重要 那 你 get adequate electrolytes. The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, 和 potassium are critical 对于 the functioning of all the cells in 你的 身体, 尤其是 你的 neurons, 你的 nerve cells. Drinking element dissolved in 水 makes it 非常 easy to ensure 那 你're getting adequate hydration 和 adequate electrolytes. To make sure I'm getting proper amounts of hydration 和 electrolytes, I dissolve 一 packet of element in 关于 16 to 32 ounces of 水 when I wake up in the 早晨 和 I drink 那 basically 首先 thing in the 早晨. I'll also drink element dissolved in 水 期间 any kind of physical 运动 I'm doing, 尤其是 in hot 天 when I'm 出汗 a lot, losing 水 和 electrolytes.

They have a bunch of 不同的 great tasting flavors of element. My favorite is the watermelon, 尽管 I confess, I also like the raspberry 和 the citrus. Basically, I like all the flavors 和 Element has also just 释放了 a new line of canned sparkling element. So 这些 aren't the packets 你 dissolve in 水. 这些 are cans of element 那 你 crack open like any other canned drink, like a soda, 但 你're getting 你的 hydration 和 你的 electrolytes 与 no sugar. If 你'd like to try Element, 你 可以 go to drink element spelled LMN t.com/huberman to claim a free element sample pack 与 a purchase of any element drink mix. Again, 那's drink element.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack. Today's episode is also brought to us by Helix Sleep. Helix Sleep makes mattresses 和 pillows 那 are of the absolute highest quality. Now, I've spoken many times 之前 on 这 和 other podcasts 关于 the fact 那 getting a great 夜间's sleep is the foundation of 心理健康, physical 健康与表现.

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Great to have 你 here.

Diego Bohórquez:

Thank 你 对于 having me, Andrew.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I am super excited to learn 从 你 today as I know everyone else is, 和 if they don't realize why soon they 会, which is 那 你 work on 一 of the 更多 fascinating aspects of us, which is 我们的 gut, 我们的 gut sensing, the gut-大脑 axis, which I think most 人们 don't realize is nearby, 但 separate 从 the so-called microbiome. So 我们're not talking 关于 the microbiome, a 非常 interesting 和 重要 topic of course, 但 我们 are going to talk 关于 这 thing 那 我们 call 我们的 gut sense 和 how it impacts everything 从 我们的 cravings to 我们的 大脑 health 和 我们的 cognition. So once again, welcome 和 I'll just want to kick things off by asking 你 to educate us, explain what is 这 gut 大脑 axis 那 我们 hear 关于 和 what's going on in 我们的 gut besides digestion.

Diego Bohórquez:

Well, Andrew, thank 你 so much 对于 having me here. Thrilled to be here. I knew 那 since 我们 met a few years ago 那 我们'll have 这 ongoing conversation 和 a great conversation. The gut 和 the 大脑, 人们 call it an axis 因为 traditionally thought to be an imaginary line 那 was connected 通过 激素. So since 1902 when the 首先 激素 secretine was reported by Bailey 和 Sterling, it was known 那 when 我们 eat then 激素, 这些 molecules in the gut are 释放了 和 then they 会 enter the bloodstream 和 then eventually 会 have a cause in distant organs. 和 对于 the next hundred 或 so years, the field 专注 on the 激素. 和 as a consequence, there was no direct line of communication between the gut 和 the 大脑. 但 as 经常 I say, 你 don't say 或 我们 don't say the nose, 大脑 axi 或 the eye 大脑 axis, right? 和 all of the organs are in sync working in sync. So in the gut there are also some sensory cells 那 are able to detect the outside world 和 then quickly communicated 那 information to the 大脑. 和 I say the outside world 因为 the gut is the only organ 那 passes throughout 我们的 身体, 但 it is still exposed to the outside. If 你 think 关于 it, if 你 会 swallow a marble, it still has the chance to get out.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Please don't do 那 anybody.

Diego Bohórquez:

但 is it still exposed to the surface?

安德鲁·休伯曼：

你're right. I 从不 thought 关于 the gut as the organ 那 is in contact 与 the outside world, unlike 我们的 心脏, which is not in direct contact 与 the outside worlds 或 我们的 liver 或 我们的 pancreas, 但 the gut is

Diego Bohórquez:

The gut. 和 if 你 think 关于 it, it is just separated by some compartments 那 have all of 这些 valves, the gls, the gastro surface gel junction, the pylori, the IAL junction, the rectum.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So 这些 are the sequences of valves of chambers 与 valves between them 那 food passes 通过 空气 passes 通过, 和 within each, as I understand it, there are 不同的 functions related to digestion, 但 I think where 你're taking us is 那 there are 不同的 modes of sensing what's coming 通过 和 signaling to the 大脑 和 other organs what's going on in the outside world by what's sensed coming 通过 那 passage. Is 那 correct?

Diego Bohórquez:

那's correct. 和 if 我们 think 关于 it, when 我们 swallow something, literally 我们 have to trust 我们的 gut. Perhaps 那's why 我们 use 这 phrase, trust 你的 gut, 因为 之后 那, there's not much 那 你 可以 do at least in regular humans, 那 你 可以 do consciously to expel something 那 perhaps is poisonous 或 toxic. It is the gut 那 has to make 那 distinction 和 then usually accommodate things 对于 absorption 或 let them pass 通过 digestion, 和 then ultimately they 会 be secreted. Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So if 你 could describe 对于 us the architecture 那 is the cells 那 respond to things in the gut 和 where they send 那 information 和 how they send 那 information. What is 这 thing 那 我们 call gut sensing made up of? What's the parts list?

Diego Bohórquez:

So the parts list has been evolving recently 和 while some of the elements 我们 have known 对于 a while, 但 in general what 我们're talking 关于, 因为 it is an external surface, it is lined by a single layer of cells 那 are called epithelial cells. 和 本质上 这些 cells are exposed to the outside world, 但 they also are attached in a little membrane 和 they are the ones 那 interface 与 the inside of the 身体. So in the stomach 我们 have an stratified epithelium, 对于 instance, 那 is thicker so it 可以 survive digestion, chemicals 和 other things like harsh environment. 和 in the intestine 我们 have a little bit 更多 of 更多 delicate epithelial layer. 和 我们 think 这些 epithelial layer, there are several 不同的 cell types, 和 一 of 那些 is the, so-called enteroendocrine cell, to put it in 更多 simple terms, is a gut endocrine cell 或 a gut cell 那 releases 激素.

The term was coined in 1938 by a German physician. His name was Frederick Fater. 和 at 那 time it was a major advancement in 我们的 understanding of physiology 因为 he came up 与 the idea 那 the organs were not only communicating to organs, in fact, there were cells within the organs 那 were communicating to other organs 通过 the 释放 of some of 这些 endocrine factors, 这些 neuromodulators 或 这些 neuropeptides 那 我们 know as 激素. 和 so he named the diffuse endocrine 系统 of the gut, 和 then he came up 与 这 word enter endocrine cell. 和 这些 cells are 这些 pairs at a ratio of roughly speaking like 一 to 1000 epithelial cells throughout the digestive tract. 和 我们 thought 对于 the longest time 那 这些 cells were not connecting directly to the 神经系统 那 they 会 释放 这些 neuromodulators 和 the neuromodulators 通过 diffusion 会 act on 受体 进入 some of the nerve terminals.

和 那 is true, 那 is a 非常 well established 系统. 但 in 2015, 我们 made an observation 那 some of 这些 cells anywhere 从 一 third to 二 thirds of 这些 cells, it depends on the type of 系统 那 你 use to identify, they were contacting directly the 神经系统. 和 那 brought up a new dimension of how it is 那 the gut could be communicating to the 大脑 因为 as 你 know in the 大脑, the synapses are the ones 那 are most predominant. 然而, there is a lot of neuromodulation 从 endocrine functions in the 大脑 too. So in the gut 这 was not well described. There had been historically a few examples 那 这些 cells may be make in synaptic context, 但 they had not been studied. 和 perhaps 一 of the main reasons why they hadn't been studied is 因为 the tools were not there. 和 if 你 recall in 1990s 与 the advancement of green fluorescence protein as 一 of the main molecules to attack cells, now all of a sudden there was a revolution in biology 因为 你 could identify the cells, 你 可以 take them out, 你 可以 do a transcriptomic analysis to see what genes they express. 你 could co-culture them, 你 可以 modify their genome, 和 then 你 可以 start to interrogate what is their contribution to the entire 身体.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'll just interrupt 你 对于 a 秒 just to make sure 那 I 和 everyone else is on board. So if I understand correctly, it's long been known 那 there are cells 那 are in 这些 layers of the got in the intestine, 和 it's long been appreciated 那 as food passes 通过 这些 cells somehow 可以 sense the chemical constituents of the food as it gets broken down 和 then 释放 激素 进入 the bloodstream 那 could influence the 大脑. 那些 激素 could travel 和 influence things far away. In fact, 对于 那些 那 don't know, endocrine generally mean signaling at a distance between cells. So between gut 和 大脑 或 gut 和 liver, it 可以 also mean local effects. So 激素, endocrine effects 可以 also be local. 但 if I also understand 你 correctly, it was only 关于 15 years ago when 你 mentioned green fluorescent protein. 我们 应该 probably just tell the tale in a few sentences. 这 is an amazing story in biology where if 你've ever seen fluorescent jellyfish, 那's 因为 they express a gene 对于 so-called green fluorescent protein, 和 biologists have hijacked 那 gene sequence 和 put it 进入 mice, 和 now actually other organisms as well, which allows 你 to see individual cells 和 cell types. So 这些 cells 释放 激素, the 激素 influence the 大脑 和 other organs. 和 now I think 你're going to tell us 那 they also are able to make direct communication lines 与 other organs as well.

Diego Bohórquez:

Correct. So maybe here it's fitting how it is 那 I got 进入 starting studying the 系统. 和 as 你 know, between the nineties 和 the early 二 thousands, there was an explosion in tools to 研究 the 大脑 和 neural circuitry 和 the connection of neurons 和 each 一 of the neurons, 因为 up until the 1990s, the tools were limited electrophysiology behavior. 但 then not only 我们 had a green fluorescence protein, 我们 had optogenetics, 我们 had a rabies modified to be able to trace how it is the neurons connect at 一 synapse, which it was a dream. I think 那 in fact, 那 was the dream of Francis Creek when he was at the S. He talk 关于 having the way to control,

安德鲁·休伯曼：

对于 那些 那 don't know, Creek 一 was a to the Nobel Prize 对于 the discovery of the structured DNA, 但 then later in his career developed an obsession 对于 neuroscience. 和 yeah, he daydreamed out loud 关于 having tools to visualize individual connections in the 神经系统. 和 as Diego is pointing out, scientists have hijacked the rabies virus, which hops between neurons labeled the rabies virus 与 things 那 glow fluorescent. 和 in doing so, 我们 now understand a lot 关于 what Crick dreamed 对于, which was the ability to see 不同的 具体的 connections in the 神经系统.

Diego Bohórquez:

Yes. So then 你 could isolate the cells 和 then 你 could do sequencing technology to see what are the genes 那 这些 cells are expressing, 和 then 你 可以 start to understand the makeup of the cells. In 2009, Hans CL is a scientist in the Netherlands, the beautiful experiment. He discovered 这些 factors 那 会 trigger a 受体 of the stem cells in the intestinal epi epithelium 和 会 form literally a mini gut in a dish. 这些 cells 会 be all lined up 和 then they 会 have lumen. 和 I remember seeing some of 这些 papers coming out when I was a PhD student 和 I was already studying the gut. So it was inspiring to see all of the things 那 all of a sudden 你 could do. So when I began studying the cells immediately by isolating the cells 和 simply observing the cells in the native 组织 of 这些 mice models, it quickly became evident 那 some of the cells had a 非常 peculiar anatomy.

Some of them had 这 非常 prominent arms at the base, literally like in the Sistine Chapel atom, reaching out to gut 与 a hand, the cells 会 have 那 type of anatomical features 和 even ending 与 a little hand at the end of 那 arm. 和 obviously I immediately thought, why 会 a cell 那 it is supposed to react to food 和 释放 激素 进入 the bloodstream 或 just in the vicinity, 会 invest so much 能量 进入 developing an arm? So then I started to look, well, perhaps it is 因为 it's providing a breach directly 进入 the vasculature, 进入 the vessels to put the 激素 进入 the bloodstream grown. I couldn't find 那 direct connection. So then I started to 研究, perhaps they were associated 与 the 神经系统, 和 那's how 我们 made some of the 首先 observations 那 some of them 与 the arm 或 没有 the arm, they 会 have a 更多 intimate relationship 与 nerve fibers.

和 那 of course open up a bunch of new questions. 但 the 首先 thing 那 我们 had to do, it was to come up 与 a name 对于 这 foot 和 it kind of became organic. 和 I want to highlight 这 因为 I think 那 as 我们 go 通过 the discovery trajectory, 我们 don't realize the need to also engineer language, how 我们 go 关于 languages. 我们 start to attach words 那 我们 already knew 和 我们 start to put them together to describe something 那 new 那 我们 are observing. 和 I say 这 因为 at the 非常 beginning 与 my mentor, 我们 会 start to call 这些 little feet 首先 我们 call them axon, which is the term 对于 the long extending branches of the neurons, the main branches of the neurons. So 我们'll call them axon 因为 they looked like a baby axon, 但 then 我们 call them also like pseudopod 因为 it was like a pod, 但 it was pseudo. 和 at some point, 和 it was coming 从 some cells in the kidneys 那 they're called pod podia 或 something like 那. So it was axon like pseudo pod, like basal process to describe 那 it was on the base. So at some point it became so long 那 我们 couldn't fit it in an abstract, it's

安德鲁·休伯曼：

A bit of a mouthful.

Diego Bohórquez:

So 我们 began thinking 关于 it, 和 then eventually I came up 与 a term I thought like, ah, po. 和 I remember pitching it to my mentor 和 he said, let me think 关于 the weekend. 和 on a Monday he came in 和 he said, it has a ring to it, I think 那 我们 应该 use it. 但 本质上 the thought was 那 if 这些 cells are contacting, then perhaps they are passing information directly onto the 神经系统. 和 那 is 非常 不同的 than just spewing neuromodulators in the vicinity 和 hoping 那 some of 那些 catch the 神经系统. 和 like I said, while 那 still exists, 和 I think 那 is just matter of space 和 time, they modulate 这些 terminals in a 不同的 space 和 time, the 激素, 但 the transmission, the neuro transmission is directly 和 更多 precise in space 和 time.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Could I just interrupt 对于 a moment please? So 激素 signaling, endocrine signaling generally is slower than the forms of communication directly between neurons could be on the order of 秒, 但 通常 on the orders of 分钟 或 小时, whereas neural communication on the order of milliseconds.

Diego Bohórquez:

Correct.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So if I understand correctly, 这些 what 你 decide to call neuro pod cells, 和 thank 你 对于 shortening the name 从 the other description line, the gut. Are 我们 talking 关于 everything 从 esophagus down to the stomach to the intestine, 或 is it just at the 水平 of the stomach 和 intestine? Where do they exist?

Diego Bohórquez:

So 这 is where the conversation becomes expansive 因为 这些 neuro pods 或 causes of 这些 neuro pods, so 这些 neuro pods are simply a specialized epithelial cells, meaning 那 are electrically excitable 那 they 可以 discharge electricity, 但 they are, 这些 type of cells are in every single epithelial cell 或 epithelial layer of the 身体 因为 那's how the 身体 creates a representation of the world 通过 sensor cells 那 are equipped to detect the outside world, meaning 那 they 可以 be exposed to fluctuations in 温度 fluctuations in pH fluctuations in concentrations, 和 then they quickly 可以 generate a chemo electrical coat 那 they pass it on to the 神经系统. 和 then ultimately the 大脑 integrates 那 和 says like, Ooh, my belly is feeling good, 但 I'm feeling 寒冷 in the 皮肤. 和 那 is thanks to all of 这些 epithelial cells 那 they are even in tasting so to speak, the cerebral spinal fluid inside of the spinal cord 和 the ventricles, they are inside of the inner ears, the taste, the taste pads.

So it is, 和 in fact, there's a beautiful book 从 the seventies 从 some Japanese scientists, Fujita Canon ic, who called the cells para neurons. 和 their whole concept is 那 there was not such a discrete distinction between an entire neuron 那 lives inside of the 大脑 或 the central 神经系统 和 a neuro epithelial 或 a neuroendocrine cell 那 leaves exposed to the outside simply 那 there is a continuum of adaptation. So the organism 可以 bring the information 从 outside, inside, 进入 the 身体 to be able to process it 和 then process it 和 then guide behavior.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So based on the way 你 describe it, 我们 have 这些 neuro pod cells 那 line 我们的 gut, 和 我们 also have 这些 相似的 cell types in the other organs of the 身体. 和 这些 cells are responding to the chemical constituents of what 我们 eat as the food is broken down also to the 温度 of the environment to the pH. 那 is how relatively basic 或 acidic something is 那 我们 ate 和 presumably to other features in 我们的 environment as well. 和 all of 那 information is activating 这些 cells to some degree 或 another, 和 then 我们're releasing 激素 进入 我们的 身体 as a consequence. 但 also there's a direct line to the 大脑, 和 我们're not necessarily aware of all of 这 happening. I mean, until 你 describe it, I think most of us have not been aware 那 这 is happening,

Diego Bohórquez:

和 我们 probably shouldn't be aware, as I 经常 say, if 你 和 I are having a conversation, 我们 probably shouldn't be aware of macrophage in the spleen 那 is chasing 这 bacterium 那 got inside of the lettuce 那 我们 swallow it at launch. 你 just do 你的 thing so 我们 可以 keep communicating except

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Maybe don't eat 更多 of 那 lettuce, which is the 那's right. Okay. So 你 discovered 这些 neuro pod cells. 那's right.

Diego Bohórquez:

或 I describe them, 你

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Describe them 和 你 had in hand some tools to selectively label them. What did 那 reveal 关于 their connectivity 与? 你're referring to it as the 神经系统, which I love 因为 a resounding theme on 这 podcast, as I 总是 say, 大脑 和 spinal cord 和 all the connections to the 身体 和 back again is the 神经系统. 但 what did 你 discover in terms of the connections 与 the 大脑 proper?

Diego Bohórquez:

Here is where the tools started to make a big difference. All of a sudden 你 could see the resolution of a 受体 inside of a cell using certain type of microscopes. So I remember 那 一 of the 首先 questions 那 I 会 总是 get drill on how 这些 laugh meetings 可以 get intense. When I 会 bring 数据 和 showing just 非常 simple immunohistochemistry meaning labeling to see how the cells were interacting 与 the 神经系统, then I 会 show some of the images. Then the other scientists 会 say, well, yeah, 那些 are nice images, 但 remember 那 contact does not mean connection. 和 I went thinking 关于 那 at the 非常 beginning. I thought 那 it was silly semantics, 但 I specifically remember 那 there was 一 time I was running 和 I was thinking, how do 你 demonstrate connection between 二 cells? 和 then I thought 那 since 我们 had the ability to identify 这些 cells by fluorescence, 我们 could isolate them based on their fluorescence 和 what 会 happen if 我们 put them in front of a sensory neuron 和 then just record them inside of a microscope over time.

和 I thought maybe they 会 get close to each other 和 then 我们 可以 go 和 do some 更多 labeling 和 show 那 they are contacting 或 connecting. 但 much to 我们的 surprise, 我们 actually saw 那 in real time, when 你 isolate them 从 the mouse 和 你 put them in a dish, they both look like 这些 round circles, 但 之后 a few 小时, not only they get close to each other, 但 they recapitulate the circuitry in the dish. Literally they form like 二 grains in a dish, the gut 和 the 大脑 in a dish. Amazing. 和 那 was an eyeopener. I still remember it was somewhere, I think it was like June 27th, 2012 when I saw 那 experiment 因为 it opened my eyes to so many 不同的 things. 一, it was 那 这些 cells are not static 因为 since 我们 have been seeing them 对于 decades just in slices 或 fixed 组织, 我们 have lost the notion 那 这 thing is constantly moving, right? The

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Cells are actually moving,

Diego Bohórquez:

The cells are actually moving.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So 这些 cells line the gut, meaning they're along the walls of the gut 和 intestine,

Diego Bohórquez:

The intestine,

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They reach a hand 进入 the gut to sense whatever chemicals are there,

Diego Bohórquez:

和 they have little clia, little hair 或 microbially 那 is literally little hair 那 is exposed to the lumen.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So the lumen folks is the cavity, the empty cavity of the gut, not empty, 但 the internal part. 和 so they're sensing the chemicals there 和 你're saying they 可以 move 和 they're sending a process. By the way, folks, anytime 你 don't know whether 或 not something is a dendrite 或 an axon, just call it a process. 你'll get it right. A process up to the 大脑

Diego Bohórquez:

Underneath 那 会 connect to the 神经系统.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I see. So 通过 a series of stations. Yeah. Okay, amazing. So what 我们're talking 关于 here is Diego's discovery of a 通路 从 the gut to the 大脑 那 本质上 allows sensing of what's happening in the gut to inform feelings,

Diego Bohórquez:

Decisions. 那's correct, yeah. So 那 was the 首先 experiment showing in addition, right? The next experiment was, well, does it happen in the mouse? 和 then 通过 a series of, I have a friend neuroscientist 那 she calls 这些 rabies gymnastics 因为 你 have to put in some genes 和 make things work. Then 我们 demonstrated 那 这些 cells, 那 the virus 会 be capable of infecting 这些 cells specifically instead of infecting the other epithelial cells, it 会 infect 这些 new epithelial cells 因为 rabies likes neurons. 和 then it 会 jump 从 那 cell 进入 a nerve fiber. 和 这些 rabies 可以 only jump 一 connection. 和 what it was surprising is 那 the fluorescence 从 那 rabies 会 show up in the brainstem 和 in the bodies of the cells 那 are in the no ganglia, which is 这 cluster where the cell bodies of the neurons of the vagus nerve are located right underneath the neck, meaning 那 there was just 一 stop between the surface of the intestine 和 the brainstem, the 二 cells were connecting 那 space. So obviously the information 那 was an anatomical basis 对于 the information to travel 非常 rapidly up 进入 the 大脑 和 rapidly in the subconscious, right? 我们're not necessarily aware of it, 尽管 I've read 那 there are some instances in which 人们 become 更多 aware of it, either in atypical fashion 或 与 meditation 和 other things 那 人们 可以 become aware.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yes, 人们 definitely 可以 become 更多 aware of their so-called interoception, what's going at the 水平 of their heartbeat frequency 或 their gut sensing if they spend time on it. Some 人们, as 你 mentioned, develop an almost pathologic sense of interoception such 那 they have trouble navigating normal life 因为 they're so aware of what's going on inside their 身体. 这 is actually an interesting issue in the field of psychiatry. My colleagues in psychiatry at Stanford tell me 那 some 人们 与 a lot of anxiety, 对于 instance, are so aware of their heartbeat 那 it becomes disruptive 和 distracting to them. So it's not 总是 the case 那 it's better to become 更多 aware of 你的 internal processing. Sometimes it 可以 be deleterious. Other times it 可以 be good 对于 us. Some 人们 are 非常 unaware of what's happening in their 身体, 和 they need to develop 更多 awareness of 那.

I feel like as long as 我们're talking 关于 rabies, 我们 应该 have a little bit of fun 和 explain to 人们 something 关于 rabies viruses, 因为 what 我们've been talking 关于 is the use of viruses as experimental tools in order to take a virus, basically attach 或 put something in so 那 whatever cell is infected by it glows a certain color so 你 可以 see the cells 和 visualize the circuitry. 但 as long as 我们're talking 关于 rabies, I feel like it's such a word 那 has such salience. The rabies virus, which exists in nature is amazing 因为 I don't know if it has a consciousness, 但 it 本质上 propagates between animals by way of the animals 那 have it bite, they become 更多 aggressive, they bite a target animal, the virus gets in, it's picked up by the nerve terminals 和 is carried back 从 一 cell to the next across synaptic connections, synapses 那 get little gaps between neurons.

和 what Dr. Diego Burque has been telling us is 那 scientists have engineered the rabies virus so 那 it only jumps 一 station 和 then stops. 你 可以 do 这 by modifying the coat protein. There's a bunch of fun virology 那 可以 be done to do 那. 但 what I find amazing 关于 rabies virus, 和 there's a great book by the way, called rabid, which is 本质上 a history of the 研究 of rabies, is 那 once it travels 从 the site of the bite up to the 大脑, what does it do? It changes the 大脑 to make the now infected animal 或 person 更多 aggressive so 那 then they go bite somebody else. So I mean, in some ways the viruses have a kind of unconscious genius to them. What's the best way to get 从 一 animal to the next? Well, there are a number of 不同的 ways, 但 一 way is to just make 那 animal 更多 aggressive so it goes 和 bites things

Diego Bohórquez:

Wild. Make the animal work 对于 你,

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Make the animal work 对于 你, right? It's almost exploitive, right? It exploits a certain circuitry in the 神经系统. I'd like to take a brief break 和 acknowledge 我们的 sponsor ag 一. By now, most of 你 have heard me tell my story 关于 how I've been taking ag 一 once 或 twice a 天 every 天 since 2012. 和 indeed 那's true. I started taking ag 一, 和 I still take ag 一 once 或 twice a 天 因为 it gives me vitamins 和 minerals 那 I 可能 not be getting enough of 从 whole foods 那 I eat as well as adaptogens 和 micronutrients. 和 那些 adaptogens 和 micronutrients are 确实 critical 因为 even though I strive to eat most of my foods 从 unprocessed 或 minimally processed whole foods, it's 经常 hard to do so, 尤其是 when I'm traveling 和 尤其是 when I'm busy. So by drinking a packet of ag 一 in the 早晨, 和 oftentimes also again in the 下午 或 晚上, I'm ensuring 那 I'm getting everything I need.

I'm covering all of my foundational nutritional needs, 和 I like so many other 人们 那 take ag 一 regularly just report feeling better. 和 那 shouldn't be surprising 因为 it supports gut health. 和 of course, gut health supports 免疫系统 health 和 大脑 health, 和 it's supporting a ton of 不同的 cellular 和 organ processes 那 all interact 与 一 another. So while certain supplements are 确实 directed towards 一 具体的 outcome, like sleeping better 或 being 更多 alert, AG 一 确实 is foundational nutritional support. It's 确实 designed to support all of the 系统 of 你的 大脑和身体 那 relate to 心理健康 和 身体健康. If 你'd like to try ag 一, 你 可以 go to drink ag 一.com/huberman to claim a special offer. They'll give 你 five free travel packs 与 你的 order plus a year supply of vitamin D 三 K 二. Again, 那's drink ag 一.com/huberman. Okay, so 你 identified 这些, 你 said, described, 但 I'll say discovered 那's what happened. 你 discovered 这些 cells, 你 label their connections. 你 see 那 there's just 二 stations between 这些 cells 或 一 station 确实 between 这些 cells 和 the 大脑. 和 so now 这些 cells 可以 sense chemicals in the gut 那 are the consequence of the breakdown of food 和 send 那 information directly to the 大脑. What does the 大脑 do 与 那 information?

Diego Bohórquez:

So here comes the key experiment, 和 这 was building obviously on the work of other scientists 那 had already described 那 the gut had some 受体 对于 sugars, specifically 对于 glucose, 对于 other nutrients 大约 这 area. In the early 二 thousands when 我们 were starting to be able to identify some of 这些 cells, then it quickly became obvious 那 这些 cells, 这些 enteroendocrine cells throughout the lining of the stomach, intestine, colon, they had multiple 受体 对于 multiple nutrients. Like 我们 have the macronutrients, 对于 instance, sugars, fats, proteins, 但 within them 我们 have a repertoire of molecules, multiple lipids, multiple types of sugars, 和 so on 和 so forth. 和 这些 cells, depending on their location, they 会 express 不同的 types of 受体 或 a combination of 那些 受体. 和 I say 那 depending on the location, 因为 when 我们're eating, let's say an apple, the apple is going to be partially undigested by the time 那 it enters intestine, 但 by the time 那 it gets to the colon, most of 那些 nutrients have being absorbed 和 perhaps only fibers are surviving to feed off most of the microbes 那 live in the colon. So the gut has evolved to mirror 和 to become a Velcro to the molecules 那 会 be in 那 具体的 space. So it 会 detect, so it detect sugars 更多 in the proximal intestine, 但 fibers 或 fermented by products 更多 in the distal intestine 或 in the colon, like short chain fatty acids, 但 rate propionate 和 so on 和 so forth.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What other kinds of nutrients do 这些 pot cells detect 从 food? So 你 mentioned sugars, 你 mentioned fermentation, presumably short 和 long chain fatty acids.

Diego Bohórquez:

Yes. The short answer is 那 I think 那 in due time 我们 are going to realize 那 they detect just 关于 every single thing 那 我们 put on 我们的 mouths every 天 那 they have some, either a 具体的 受体 那 is dedicated to it 或 a combination of 受体 to be able to detect some of 这些 compounds. 和 not only the chemical compounds, 但 also an area 那 I think 那 is going to be fascinating in the future is the mechanical extens plus the adjustment in 温度 as the time starts to flow 从 the mouth 进入 the colon. 对于 instance, I heard 这 从 a bioengineer 和 not long ago, 那 was engineering artificial gut 和 a stomach, 和 he shared 与 me a piece of information 那 I was not aware of, 那 the sofa has to adjust the 温度 of the food 非常 rapidly within 秒 进入 physiological 温度 of the inside of the 身体. So if 我们 are having hot coffee within a couple of 秒, it has to be at the physiological 温度 of the 身体 by the time 那 it gets 进入 the stomach. 和 all of 那 happens in 非常 rapidly in the S. Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So if I understand correctly, 这些 neuro pod cells have a variety of 不同的 受体 depending on where they are located along the trajectory 从 the mouth to the rectum.

Diego Bohórquez:

那's correct.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

和 some are sensing sugar, some are sensing 温度, some are sensing pH. So relative acidity, some are sensing amino acids presumably. I mean, I've heard it said, 和 I believe there's a researcher down in Australia who has been 非常 bullish on the theory 那 我们 are not exclusively, 但 我们 are predominantly amino acid foraging machines 因为 我们 need amino acids 对于 all sorts of 重要 biological processes. 和 这些 cells are 本质上 evaluating how much sugar, how much leucine, how much short chain fatty acid, how much essential fatty acids of 不同的 kinds, 和 then making changes to the gut itself, 但 then presumably signaling 那 information elsewhere in the 身体.

Diego Bohórquez:

So here I'm going to give 你 something 那 会 get 你的 gut churning, so to speak. So 这些 cells have to make sense not only of the molecule 那 had been adjusted, meaning the chemistry of the molecule, let's say if it's glucose, it has to make sense a little bit of the taste. Is it sweet? Is it bitter? Then it has to take 进入 account how much of the molecule is absorbed inside of the cell. 那's the 秒 layer of integration. Then once the cell has eaten 那 molecule, so to speak, then 那 molecule 会 be digested inside of the cell to 释放 a TP 或 some other compound. A TP is 对于 能量, 对于 instance, 那 has also have to be taken 进入 account. 对于 instance, in glucose, glucose activates the TAs 一 或 三, which is a sweet taste 受体. Then the glucose is absorbed by some of the sodium glucose transporters, which are active transporters, 和 这 transporters depolarize the cell.

和 then once glucose gets inside of the cell, glucose enters the TCA cycle is metabolized 和 then produces a TP. 和 the A TP farther activates another voltage gated channel, farther depolarize in the cell, 和 then the cell releases in turn a transmitter, 对于 instance, glutamate 那 非常 rapidly tells the vagus nerve within milliseconds, I got sugar, 和 it tells it in 二 phases 因为 那 glutamate 会 activate 二 不同的 type of 受体, ionotropic, which are 非常 fast, 和 metabotropic, which are a little bit 更多 delayed. 但 then the 代谢 of 那 glucose 那 produces the A TP 和 farther the polarizes the cell, 我们 believe 那 it 会 cause the 释放 of the 激素 of the neuropeptide. So then the neuropeptide comes on top of 那 和 gives 你 那 full experience of what it means to consume sugar. So 那 happens at the 水平 of 一 cell 和 at the 水平 of 一 molecule. So imagine all of the computation 那 the gut has to be making 对于 each 一 of the molecules throughout the digestive tract.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So if I stand back 从 这 picture, what I get is there are 非常 interesting cell types 那 line 我们的 gut 那 are evaluating all of the not just macronutrients, proteins, fats 和 carbohydrates, 但 micronutrients within the food 我们 eat as well as some of the other qualitative features, 温度 对于 instance, maybe even quality of the amino acids 或 the sugars, simple versus complex sugars, et cetera. If 我们 could just further zoom out 对于 a moment 和 take a human perspective on 这 at the 水平 experience, I once heard 你 tell a story 关于 someone 你 knew who changed their gut radically 和 那 changed their entire perceptual experience of food, including certain cravings. 会 你 心智 sharing 那 story?

Diego Bohórquez:

Yes. Thank 你 对于 bringing 那 story, Andrew. 那 story is 非常 personal to me. I 经常 say when I get on stage 那 我们 are constantly influenced by 二 things in life. The food 那 我们 eat 和 the 人们 那 我们 meet. Now 我们 have known each other, 但 now 我们 meet in person 和 我们 are knowing other 人们. 和 I remember 那 when I was starting my PhD in nutrition at North Carolina State University. So I didn't grow up in the United States, I grew up in Ecuador, 和 I was invited to my 首先 Thanksgiving celebration. So I sat at dinner 和 as 我们 began chatting 与 the 人们 那 were next to each other, all of a sudden I was enthralled in 这 conversation of a woman telling me 这 story 关于 her experience 与 gastric bypass surgery 对于 treating obesity. So gastric bypass surgery was begun to be developed by surgeons in the sixties 和 by the nineties it had become a mainstream type of surgery 对于 the treatment of chronic obesity. So she told me 那 there were primarily 三 things 那 happened. She said, well, within six months of the surgery I had lost 关于 40% of 身体 weight. She said I was 关于 300 pounds. 你 do the math. So it was a

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Significant

Diego Bohórquez:

Amount. Yeah, significant amount. She said, 我们 think 一 周 of the surgery my diabetes was gone. She said, I did not need 更多 insulin shots, so I had the same reaction 那 你're having. I was like, I don't know much 关于 diabetes, 但 I know 那 it is a major health burden. 但 the thing 那 确实 caught my eye was when she said, 但 since 你're starting nutrition, I want 你 to answer 这 to me. She said, why is it 那 之前 the surgery I could not even look at Sony side app X? She said, just looking at the yolk 会 make me queasy, 但 之后 the surgery, not only I 可以 eat Sony side app X, I actually have a craving 对于 the yolk. She said, every time 我们 go on Saturday to a restaurant 对于 breakfast, I 会 take the toast 和 I 会 actually clean the plate of the yolk. So how is it 那 rewiring the gut alter my perception of flavor, alter my cravings 和 my 心智 to get the yolk she said,

安德鲁·休伯曼：

和 even inverted her sense of what was aversive versus a competitive? 和 I guess 对于 那些 of us 那 don't know, meaning me, I understand the gastric bypass surgery involves the removal of a portion of the gut. How much gut 组织 do they actually take? Is it centimeters, inches? The gut's a long distance. So what do they do 对于 gastric bypass?

Diego Bohórquez:

In simple terms, the most, the classic surgery is called ruin y, gastric bypass surgery, which involves a reduction of the stomach 和 shortcutting the connection of the stomach to the intestine. So 你'll cut 一 third, which 会 be the duodenum, 一 third of 那 会 be cut, 和 then 那 portion 会 be reconnected to the stomach, meaning 那 你're short circuiting the gut. 和 the whole idea was at the 非常 beginning was like, well, if 我们 减少 the surface 那 is exposed to food, then 我们 可以 减少 身体 weight by the simply reduction of surface 那 is exposed to the food 那 is absorbed. 和 what it became 非常 clear is 那 well 之前 the 身体 weight changes got taken place, there was already some dramatic changes in physiology like the 激素, the neuropeptides 那 were 释放了 从 the intestine in response to nutrients. It 会 change 非常 rapidly.

Then as I mentioned, the food choices 会 change, diabetes 会 be resolved. So then it became obvious 那 it was not necessarily just the reduction in the surface of the gut. So 那's 一 of the main surgeries. The other 一, as I understand is vertical is leaf gastrectomy. 和 这 vertical is leaf gastrectomy is simply a reduction in the size of the stomach. So it is now the stomach is 非常 tiny, 和 the idea is 那 会 accumulate 更少, it could haul 更少 food, 和 then the food 会 go 非常 rapidly 进入 the intestine. 和 what is becoming 非常 obvious is 那 there is a rapid change in the sensory function of the gastrointestinal tract. So the gut seems to rapidly shift, perhaps become 更多 so to speak in general terms, 更多 sensitive to the presence of nutrients. Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting. So 这 woman 那 你 met at Thanksgiving had gastric bypass surgery, 和 presumably I think it's fair to assume a good number of 这些 pot cells 那 sense 不同的 nutrients were removed, 和 as a consequence, she completely shifted her craving of a particular food. 和 is there any sense whether 或 not, no pun intended, the lack of sensing of what was in sunnyside egg yolks was somehow related to a shift in appetite 或 something else? 或 is it merely a qualitative, albeit a dramatic qualitative shift in what she craved?

Diego Bohórquez:

So 二 contextual pieces of information. So I remember leaving 那 dinner 和 I was like, whoa, 这 is major. I am sure 那 人们 have written 关于 这 或 done 研究. 和 I realized 那 it was 非常 little was known. Even gastroenterologists knew 非常 little 关于 这. The 首先 clinical report 那 the alteration in food choices was common in 这些 patients came out I believe in 2011. 和 then later on, a scientist replicated 那 even in rats 或 in mice, 我们 have done it in the laboratory 和 consistently they change their food preferences, their food choices. So in recent years, 我们 have been studying 那 系统. 和 I'll tell 你 那 in 2022, 这 is another 重要 contextual piece 那 我们 have not gotten to it. So 之后 我们 found, 和 我们 described 那 the cells were connecting to the 神经系统 和 那 they were sending information up to the 大脑 非常 rapidly, the challenge was, well, if 这 is a sense, what behavior is affecting, how is it 那 is affecting the responses of the organism? 和 那 took a little bit of a technical hurdle, 和 here is where optogenetics comes in.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, please explain 对于 人们 what optogenetics is in at least at a top contour 水平.

Diego Bohórquez:

So optogenetics in 2005, professor Carl Dero, er, Boyden 和 other scientists had been able to make 这 dream of an experiment, which he was isolated, the genes 那 encode 对于 这些 opsin 那 are sensitive to 具体的 wavelengths of light 和 put them 进入 neurons. 和 now by turning 那 light, they could make the neuron activate. 和 then ultimately then later on they went on to describe 那 那 could be used to control a 具体的 cells 那 are regulating behavior 和 then by 那 define what cells are orchestrating certain type of behaviors like movement, food intake, thirst, anxiety, so on 和 so forth. So in 2014, 我们 began trying to adapt 那 technology to the gut. 和 非常 quickly 我们 realized 那 the way 那 light was brought 进入 the 大脑 was 通过 a fiber optic cable 那 was rigid.

和 in the 大脑 it helps 那 it's actually rigid, 但 in the gut it doesn't help 因为 the gut is constantly moving 和 so on 和 so forth. So it's not compatible 对于 running 那些 experiments. 和 here's where I usually say, 我们 确实 don't know what is going on 因为 some forces move 大约 us. 和 in 2017, professor Paul, Eva 从 MIT came to give a talk at Duke 和 she reached out to me 和 literally she came. 和 as 我们 were chatting, she said, Diego, I see 那 你're working between in 这 interface of the gut 和 the 大脑, 和 I have 这 fiber year optic 那 is flexible. 会 你 have any use 对于 it? So 与 那 fiber optic, 那 made a big difference to 研究, interrogate the function of 这些 cells to behavior. So when 我们 were able to put 那些 options, the light sensitive proteins inside of 这些 neuro pods, 和 now when 我们 turn the light on to shut off the cells 非常 rapidly, 我们 found something 非常 interesting. So normally animals, when 你 give them the choice between a sweetener, which is the void of caloric value,

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So like a aspartame 或 Splenda 或 stevia 或 something,

Diego Bohórquez:

和 你 give them sugar, table sugar, the animal invariably 会 go to sugar.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They prefer sugar. They

Diego Bohórquez:

Prefer sugar. If they have 从不 seen sugar, it 会 take them a little bit 更多 time, 但 regularly by the 秒 天 is within 90 秒 那 they detect what is sugar.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So they're drinking out of 一 tube, they get some 水 与 stevia, they drink out of another tube 水 与 sugar, 和 they invariably prefer the 水 与 sugar.

Diego Bohórquez:

那's correct. 和 人们 have described 这 phenomenon 对于 a while. 和 in fact in 2007, there was an elegant experiment done by Professor Ivan de at Duke University in which the sweet taste 受体 were, all the taste 受体 were genetically erased 和 the animals were not capable of distinguishing the sweetener 从 the 水, 但 they could still distinguish sugar 从 水, meaning 那 there was something else 那 was detecting the sugar.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So just to make sure 人们 are on board, an experiment where sensing of sweet taste at the 水平 of the mouth is eliminated does not disrupt the preference 对于 sugar 水.

Diego Bohórquez:

Correct.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Which means 那 there's something going on below the depth of consciousness 那 causes mammals, presumably us included, to prefer things 那 have sugar.

Diego Bohórquez:

Yes. 和 then Professor Tony Sclafani, he had been studying 这些 behaviors 和 he went in so far to suggest 那 perhaps 这些 sodium glucose transporters are some of the ones 那 are detecting the sugar as it enters intestine. 和 那's what is causing the behavior. So 我们 began working on the 系统. 我们 wonder could 这些 cells be the ones 那 are guiding 那 behavior? 和 大约 the time 那 我们 published 这 work, professor Charles Zucker at Columbia, also farther advanced 那 area by building on the previous work 和 demonstrated 那 there were a population of neurons in the brainstem 那 were integrating 这 information 从 the gut. 和 by 那, the gut 和 the 大脑 were guiding 这 behavior.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

和 it is true 那 从 the earliest of ages, 我们 crave sugar, 或 at least if 我们 are exposed to the taste of sugar, it tends to drive seeking of 更多 sugar. I mean, 你 可以 see 那 in babies even.

Diego Bohórquez:

Correct. 和 as I usually say, I call it instinctively 因为 我们的 mother doesn't have to teach us a Diego. 那 is glucose. It may present us in some ways, 但 at the end of the 天, I have to go 和 get my glucose, get my amino acids right? 因为 eating is 非常 simple. 我们 are just trying to solve 这 issue of getting 我们的 carbons, getting 我们的 nitrogen, getting 我们的 phosphorus, 我们的 potassium, 我们的 sodium, 和 我们的 chloride in so many 不同的 ways, shape 或 forms. So I went back to the experiment, the key experiment. So when 我们 were able to put 这些 options 和 bring the light 和 shut off 这些 cells 非常 rapidly, when 我们 had presented the animal 与 a choice of sweetener over sugar, then all of a sudden the animal became blind to the solutions. It couldn't discern between the stevia so to speak, 或 the sweetener 从 the actual sugar

安德鲁·休伯曼：

和 the entire manipulation. The experimental manipulation 那 is occurring at the 水平 of the gut,

Diego Bohórquez:

The intestine 那's right 之后 the stomach. It's like just a small portion of the intestine.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So if 我们 make an attempt to transfer 这 to the human real world experience, if I have some ice cream, it tastes sweet. I like it. 和 now I'm thinking 关于 it 和 I'm craving it just a little bit. I don't have a huge craving 对于 sweets, 但 I do like some of them. So eating ice cream, it tastes sweet. The tendency is to crave 更多.

Diego Bohórquez:

那's

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Correct. 你 have to eat a lot of ice cream 之前 你're truly full. 和 most 人们 self-regulate 或 their parents regulate 对于 them by limiting the number of scoops 或 something. 和 那 sweet taste is part of the motivator. 但 what 你're saying is 那 as the ice cream enters the gut, there are neuro pod cells there 那 are also sensing the sugar 和 signaling to the 大脑, 和 the 大脑 is responding to pursue 更多 of 那 sweet containing substance.

Diego Bohórquez:

那's

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Correct. 和 it's happening below 我们的 awareness. It is independent 从 the sweet taste of the ice cream.

Diego Bohórquez:

Correct.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The conscious sweet

Diego Bohórquez:

Taste, the conscious sweet taste, which if 你 think 关于 it, it's not fully conscious, right? As what 我们 detect of the world. It's just a 非常 tiny little portion, even sight. 我们 think 我们 are looking 对于 light, 但 I don't know what is happening behind my back. I trust 那 everything is going. So when 我们 shut off 这些 cells, the animal 和 as I usually say, became blind to the sugars 因为 it's kind of like akin to having turn off the cells 那 are able to detect light, the wavelength of light 对于 us to be able to discern color. 和 it's not 那 the animal is losing its memory 因为 then if 你 remove the light 和 now the cells are functional again, then the animal again is able to distinguish 一 solution over the other. 和 then 我们 did a couple 更多 experiments in there. 和 what happens, 我们 do the reverse 和 我们 turn on the cells now. 和 the fascinating thing is 那 when 我们 turn on the cells, now the mouse 会 eat the sweetener as if it 会 be sugar.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting. So the activation of 这些 cells makes the crave non caloric sweetener 或 low calorie sweetener as if it were sugar. 但 is it blinding them to the difference between sugar 和 low calorie sweetener?

Diego Bohórquez:

So here's another piece of information. If 我们'll offer them 水 和 我们'll turn on the cells, the animal 会 drink the 水 as if it 会 be sugar, like it 会 be appetizing

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Even though it's just plain 水.

Diego Bohórquez:

Yes. 和 what is becoming 非常 obvious is 那 the gut has 这 sense at the most basic 水平. What the senses are doing is calculating a couple of things. 一 is in the salience of the stimulus is like how intense is the stimulus? 和 the other 一 is the valence of the stimulus is a pleasurable 或 painful, so to speak. In broad terms, 和 I say 这 因为 on the pain side, professor David Julius, professor Holly Ingram, Jim, by at UCSF, they have done some beautiful work demonstrating 那 there are 这些 serotonin releasing cells specifically in the colon. They have focused in the colon 那 they coupled to nerve fibers of the spinal cord. 和 when they are activated, now all of a sudden they drive what 我们 call in the clinical realm visceral hypersensitivity. So they are responsible 对于 triggering the hypersensitivity of the nerve fibers, the colonic nerve fibers, 因为 they detect noxious stimuli, 和 then ultimately they gate 那 noxious stimuli 和 pass it on to the nerve fiber in broad terms as painful stimulus.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So is 这 irritable bowel syndrome?

Diego Bohórquez:

It is. 我们 could call it as the biological basis of what could degenerate 进入 irritable bowel syndrome 和 so on 和 so forth, 或 这些 chronicle gi, they call them disorders of gut-大脑 interactions in the clinic.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a brief break 和 acknowledge 我们的 sponsor Inside Tracker. Inside Tracker is a personalized nutrition platform 那 analyzes 数据 从 你的 血液 和 DNA to help 你 better meet 你的 personal health goals. Now, I've long been a believer in getting regular 血液 work done 对于 the simple reason 那 many of the factors 那 impact 你的 immediate 和 long-term health 可以 only be analyzed 与 a quality 血液 test. Now, the problem 与 a lot of 血液 tests out there is 那 你 get information back 关于 metabolic factors, lipids 和 激素 和 so forth, 但 你 don't know what to do 与 那 information. 与 Inside Tracker, they have a 非常 easy to use online platform 那 allows 你 to see the 结果 of 你的 血液 test 和 then offers 你 various actionable tools such as behavioral tools, nutritional tools, 和 supplementation tools 那 可以 help 你 move 那些 values 从 你的 tests 进入 the ranges 那 are optimal 对于 你.

If 你'd like to try inside Tracker, 你 可以 go to inside tracker.com/huberman to get 10% off their new subscription model, which has significantly reduced prices. Again, 那's inside tracker.com/huberman to get 10% off. As a neuroscientist, I was trained to think 关于 the neural retina, the light sensing 组织 at the back of the eye, the cochlea, the 本质上 mechano sensory cells in the inner ear 那 respond to sound waves, not directly, 但 通过 a number of 不同的 transducers 和 这 kind of thing. 和 then of course, where 你 are all familiar 与 the 皮肤 和 那 it responds to pressure, light, touch, tickle, itch, et cetera. What I'm understanding, based on what 你're telling me is 那 all along the 通路 从 我们的 mouth to 我们的 rectum, 我们 have sensory cells 那 are evaluating the chemical constituents of the foods 那 我们 eat, emitting broad, maybe even crude, slow signals in the form of 激素 to change 我们的 appetite, 我们的 feelings of wellbeing, maybe 我们的 feelings of not wellbeing, 但 also sending direct signals to the 大脑 to drive certain types of thinking, emotions 和 behavior.

What sorts of thoughts, emotions, 和 behaviors are foods known to evoke 通过 这 通路 从 the gut? 因为 the story 关于 你的 friend 那 had the gastric bypass 和 then changed the relationship completely to the craving of, 或 the aversion to Sunnyside eggs indicates 那 it's a pretty crude, as I'm describing a 系统 to begin 与, 但 it ultimately converges on pretty fine scale decision making. 你 order 这 和 你 avoid 那 你 确实 like 这 和 你 确实 are almost nauseous at the thought of something else 那's pretty high 水平 decisions. It 可能 not seem like it to most, 但 it's impacting significant behavior 或 impacting behavior at a significant 水平.

Diego Bohórquez:

那's correct, 和 when I think 关于 那 具体的 example is 那 之后 there has been 这 rewiring of the intestine, then now the intestine is 非常 sensitive, so to speak to the stimuli 和 when 那些 lipids 从 the yolk start to enter intestine, if 那 sensitivity has changed, meaning it could have changed in how fast it reacts to the stimulus 或 how fast it communicates to the stimulus 和 how sensitive it is to the saliency 或 the 力量 of the stimulus, it could communicate 那 what it used to be repulsive 与 a tiny little bit of amount. Now it is actually pleasurable 与 a tiny little bit of amount, 和 here's a clear example. So it has been 非常, well, I'll say 那 it has been documented in the clinic 那 patients 那 undergone gastric bypass surgery, they're actually 更多 prone. I think 那 it goes 从 二 to sevenfold, the likelihood 那 they become 和 they 会 develop alcoholism. 确实? Yes, 因为 now the way 那 they describe it is like, well, either 之前 I didn't like wine, 和 then now 之后 a few months of a surgery, I'll have 一 glass of wine, 和 then all of a sudden I found myself going to 2, 3, 4, 和 then they 会 become either 更多 sensitive, it's still not known the entire biology, 但 they 会 become either not only 更多 sensitive 但 更多 attracted to 那 type of stimulus.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I 可以't help 但 ask 关于 ozempic manjaro 和 GLP 一 glucagon-like peptide 一 analogs, which are 确实 out of all the rage right now, at least 对于 discussion. 但 many, many, many millions of 人们 are now taking 这 对于 treatment of diabetes 和 对于 weight loss. My understanding is 那 GLP 一 acts at the 水平 of the 大脑, the hypothalamus to 减少 hunger, 但 also at the 水平 of the gut to give the sensation of 更多 gastric distension. Is there any knowledge of whether 或 not GLP 一 interacts 与 the neuro pod cells 和 这 通路 那 你're describing given what 这些 neuro pod cells do 对于 craving 或 aversion?

Diego Bohórquez:

Yes. 那's a complimentary question, 和 in fact, when I got 进入 a 研究 in 这 field 15 years ago, the 研究 among scientists in 这 area, glucagon-like peptide, was already 非常 popular in the 研究. In fact, in 这 area, 人们 were 非常 focused on the 研究 of 这 peptide, 和 they were 非常 focused on the 研究 of 这 peptide 因为 it was 一 of the most potent stimulators of insulin 释放 in the pancreas 之后 gastric bypass surgery, it 会 actually 增加 its amount in circulating 水平, 和 there were already some 研究 suggesting 那 the effect of 这些 glucagon-like peptide, it was actually not 通过 the circulation, 但 更多 in a localized action onto nerve fibers, 尤其是 of the vagus nerve. So there was already some ongoing discussion 关于 这, 和 certainly some of 这些 enteroendocrine cells, 这些 neuroendocrine cells, particularly at least in animals, I think is 更多 distal in the digestive tract, 那 they do 释放 这些 glucagon lip peptide 一 in response to primarily all of the macronutrients, 但 primarily sugar.

和 then 这些 glucagon-like peptide 一 会 act on 具体的 受体 of the nerve terminals 和 then 会 trigger some of the behaviors. It also thought 那 it acts at the 水平 of the brainstem, 和 what it 会 potentiate is the reduction of appetite. So I say 那 这 is a complimentary question 因为 what is happening in the 首先 few milliseconds is the actual choice 和 the actual feeling of how 你 feel 关于 food 和 what is happening in the 分钟, 二 小时 later is the amount, how much 你 可以 eat 和 when 你 应该 stop. 因为 之后 four 小时, 你're going to come back 和 feel again, the tickling of the gut 因为 the gut starts to churn again, 和 it starts to call 对于 food. Remember, it has to fit 二 giant organisms, the host itself, 但 also the micros 那 are inside. So it has to keep, so to speak, 那 hunger going every four 小时 或 so. So 那's why the 激素 are 更多 acting on the cyclical circadian way, 但 the transmitters are acting in 这 非常 fast responsive way of the precise stimuli in 具体的 regions, the gastrointestinal tract.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So 这些 neuroendocrine cells are releasing GLP 一 或 responding to GLP

Diego Bohórquez:

一. They're releasing GLP 一,

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They're releasing GLP 一 to shut down, transiently shut down hunger,

Diego Bohórquez:

和 probably there is some interaction between the cells 那 they are having. The technical term is auto cream, 或 they are having power cream between the cells neuromodulation, 但 primarily, let's say they respond to the stimulus 和 释放 GLP 一 onto the nerve fiber.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have a theory 对于 which I have no direct 数据, 但 I'd like 你的 thoughts on having spoken to a lot of 人们 那 work on nutrition, 但 also gut 大脑 access today 和 microbiome in previous episodes, 那 一 of the key things 那 a human learns somewhat unconsciously, 但 also consciously is the relationship between a given food, which macronutrients it contains the ratios of carbohydrate, protein, 和 fat, the taste of 那 food, the amount of 那 food translated 进入 calories, 但 also physical volume. 和 then the micronutrients, why do I say 这? Well, there are a growing number of 研究 showing 那 the ingestion of highly processed food leads to the intake of excess calories 或 更多 calories than if 一 consumes foods in their 更多 natural form. Single ingredient foods 或 二 ingredient foods are 非常 不同的 than a food 那 has a bunch of 不同的 things in it.

和 it seems to me 那 if 我们 were to look back 进入 我们的 evolution, sure, 人们 were making stews 和 soups 和 things 对于 a long time. Presumably the sandwich came 关于 通过 either desire 对于 convenience 或 taste 或 both putting meats protein in between 二 pieces of bread, something of 那 sort by definition of a sandwich, maybe some vegetables in there as well, some cheese. 但 那 what 这 whole 通路 along the gut is trying to do, it seems is to deconstruct what's coming in, what's here 和 shaping choices as 你 mentioned 关于 food choice, including the amount of food to further consume 和 whether 或 not to return to 那 food 或 to avoid it. 和 at 那's correct, the extremes, it seems pretty straightforward, 和 这 is a 非常 classically described case, right? 你 go 和 你 have the kung pow shrimp 或 你 have the lentil soup at a given place 和 a few 小时 later 你 don't feel right.

你 start some 出汗, some gastric distress, 和 你 develop a pretty broad aversion to 那 food 或 maybe even the entire meal, maybe the restaurant, maybe even 那 entire type of cuisine, depending on how much of a lumper versus a splitter 你 are, as 我们 say in science, how much 你 make large bin decisions 或 fine bin decisions. 和 这 is nerd speak 对于 saying, do 你 go back to the same restaurant 但 order something 不同的, 或 do 你 just decide to 从不 go back again? 但 那's a pretty extreme case. The other extreme 会 be 你 eat a food, it's delicious, 你 feel wonderful, the restaurant, the 人们, it's wonderful, 和 你 crave 更多 of 那 food. Okay? There's all the contextual stuff too, 但 what 我们 确实 are talking 关于 here is how 一 navigates 这 whole landscape of what to put 进入 一's 身体 in terms of nutrition 和 trying to understand how 那's impacting everything 从 how 我们 feel right away, how it tastes, whether 或 not 我们 conceive it as good 或 bad 对于 us, whether 或 not 我们 think it's impacting 我们的 身体 composition 和 health in ways 那 我们 want 或 don't want.

I mean, it's pretty complex stuff. 这 is at least as complex as going to a Metropolitan Museum of Art 和 looking at a painting 和 trying to evaluate whether 或 not 你 确实 like 那 painting 或 not. Absolutely. In fact, it's probably much 更多 complicated than 那, 但 it's what 我们 do, 和 I'm beginning to get the sense, again, no pun intended, 那 这 通路 那 我们 call the gut-大脑 axis is 确实, it's a sixth sense of a 非常 elaborate kind.

Diego Bohórquez:

So 你 just touch on an entire realm of a topic, which is 一 of my favorite topics 因为 at some point as scientists, 我们 travel, 我们 travel the world, 和 it started to become 非常 obvious to me 那 wherever I went, 我们 solved 这 issue of food in a 非常 相似的 way, whether it is a tortilla 或 二 pieces of breath, which is another way of a tortilla. 你 have 你的 carbs 和 then 你 add a little bit of meat 或 a mushroom, 和 now 你 have 你的 protein

安德鲁·休伯曼：

或 fish 或 chicken 或

Diego Bohórquez:

Fish 或 chicken.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The carnivores 会 say, mushrooms not a protein. The vegans 会 say, mushroom beans, lentils, great protein. 我们're not here to resolve 那 debate. Do as 你 choose,

Diego Bohórquez:

和 then 你 add the lettuce 或 the vegetables, 和 here's the 首先 stop in 那 discussion 因为 这 is fascinating. There are some recent work showing 那 if 你 remove the protein 从 a diet, the animal swallows 那 meal, the guts, 那 there is no protein in there 和 it stops eating 那 meal.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So 这 is ordering the vegetarian taco 或 burrito 或 sandwich 和 then avoiding 那 particular taco 或 sandwich thereafter 因为 it lacks protein,

Diego Bohórquez:

因为 it lacks protein. So

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Foods 那 lack animal-based proteins tend to be avoided going

Diego Bohórquez:

Forward. So here's the 秒 part of 那. No, 和 in fact, if the protein is low, not completely absent, if the protein is low, the animal consumes 更多 of the diet 因为 it's trying to compensate 对于 the lack of protein, 和 obviously 我们 have sugars 或 fats 那 are 更多 pleasurable. It keeps eating 那 meal.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I see.

Diego Bohórquez:

If the protein is completely absent, the animal avoids 那 diet unless the diet is 非常 rich in dietary fibers. 和 the 研究 那 I saw, which I thought it was fascinating, is 那 因为 somehow the microorganisms in the digestive tract, if they have enough highly digestible fiber, now they turn on the ability to synthesize essential amino acids.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

确实?

Diego Bohórquez:

Yes.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So 我们的 gut, meaning the neurons in 我们的 gut are 本质上 waiting 对于 hoping 会 give them a consciousness proteins 从 animal sources.

Diego Bohórquez:

那's correct.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If 那些 animal proteins arrive in the form of meat, fish, eggs, et cetera, the cells signal to the 大脑 craving 更多 of 那些 foods until satiety is reached. 但 in the absence of 那 protein, the animal quickly learns, the person quickly learns to avoid 那 particular food unless there's fiber in it, in which case 这些 gut cells are able to now synthesize the essential amino acids, the

Diego Bohórquez:

Microorganisms,

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Excuse me, the microorganisms of the gut here, 我们're talking 关于 the microbiome now 可以 synthesize the essential

Diego Bohórquez:

Amino

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Amino acids 那 ordinarily 会 come 从 the meat, chicken, fish, 或 eggs.

Diego Bohórquez:

那's right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So wow. So I'm an omnivore. I love meat, high quality meat, 但 I also love vegetables, fruits, 和 starches of certain kinds. 但 I have friends who are vegetarian, vegan, many of them eat a vegetarian vegan diet 那 includes a lot of fiber. 和 你're saying 那 the fiber itself 可以 trigger the gut microbiome to synthesize the essential amino acids 那 ordinarily 会 come 从 meat. 但 你 also said, if I recall 那 if there's a small amount of protein, so not zero protein, 但 a small amount of protein in there, then 我们 crave 更多 of 那 food in order to try 和 get compensate

Diego Bohórquez:

Protein.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

非常 interesting, 因为 这 is the 首先 thing 那 to me squares the argument based on the observation 或 the hypothesis 那 我们 are 本质上 amino acid foraging machines 和 那 complete proteins in the form of meat, fish, chicken, eggs, et cetera. There are 那些 那 argue 那些 are the best forms of protein, the most complete forms. 但 there are many vegetarians 和 vegans who seem to thrive on a vegetarian vegan diet. 和 你're telling me 那 perhaps their 身体, their gut microbiome is compensating 对于 the lack of whole animal protein?

Diego Bohórquez:

那's right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

但 the 人们 who are trying to limit their meat intake are what hungrier in general. So 你're better off either indulging it 或 avoiding it, 但 not having a small amount of it. Is 那 the idea?

Diego Bohórquez:

The idea is 那 the 身体 或 the gut 会 be able to detect 那 和 then 会 try to compensate. Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I see.

Diego Bohórquez:

I actually learned recently 从 a friend Laura Al Columbia, who works, does some beautiful work on mosquitoes 和 how it is 那 they feed on 血液. She came 对于 the Gass series.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is she 从 Leslie? Al. Al,

Diego Bohórquez:

Yeah. 和 what I learned is 那 when the mosquitoes are not reproducing, they 可以 leave off a TP, which is the 能量 molecule, right? 但 they cannot lay X. They need the protein in order to be able to lay X, otherwise the mosquitoes cannot lay the egg.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So 这 leaves us 与 a picture of the gut sensing cells, 这些 neuro pod cells as exquisitely sensitive to amino acid content in 我们的 foods, which makes perfect sense

Diego Bohórquez:

To me. It has not been published 或 demonstrated yet. Sure.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

我们're now in the realm of new incoming 数据, so 我们 want to highlight 这 bracket it boldface 和 underlined it as 我们're now at the cutting edge of what's may be coming.

Diego Bohórquez:

那's right, right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Observation, 但 nonetheless, 非常 interesting. 但 there is 这 fairly longstanding hypothesis 那 我们 are foraging 对于 essential amino acids 因为 they are the building blocks of so many 重要 things in the 大脑和身体.

Diego Bohórquez:

和 in fact, there is 证据 和 Professor Steven Simpson in Australia 和 the Nutrition 研究 Institute at Sydney University, he is main proponent of 这 protein leverage hypothesis. 和 in fact, protein is the most sating macronutrients. So 那 has been established, 和 那's why normally 我们 have focused on sugars 和 fats, 但 我们 have neglected a little bit on the protein 因为 it's not as pleasurable as the sugars 或 fats. 但 what is fascinating is 那 it is the most satiating nutrient, 和 as 你 know, it's the most limiting 和 also even commercially is the most expensive right now.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah. I certainly have had the experience of at 一 time in my life 确实 enjoying 和 even craving sweet foods, desserts 和 sugars 和 things of 那 sort. 和 I noticed 那 over time, if I eat sufficient amounts of meat, chicken, eggs, fish, which is not to say 那 I consume excess amounts of them, 那 my sugar cravings go way, way down. 那's just my personal experience. 但 I know it's an experience 那 family members of mine 和 others share as well.

Diego Bohórquez:

但 I promise 你 那 这 was a fun topic. 我们 couldn't stop at just layer number 一. Layer number 二 is 那 in agriculture, 我们 have 这 instinct to plant plants 那 compliment each other. 对于 instance, a classic, 尤其是 native among native communities is called the 三 Marys, I believe is pumpkins on some type of fibers 与 corn, carbohydrates 和 beans.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So in purely plant-based diets, there's an effort to get the fiber, the sugar, 和 the amino acids.

Diego Bohórquez:

那's right. 和 I grew up in a farm. My parents got farms, 和 I remember when they 会 plant, they 会 also throw in the beans 和 the beans 会 wrap 大约 the corn, 和 it just seem like so natural, 和 那's what 你 会 do 因为 那's what 你 learn to do. 但 if 你 think 关于 it, it's an thing 那 我们 have developed even agriculturally 和 probably in the subconscious to cultivate them in such a way 或 perhaps the plants taught us how to cultivate them in such a way 那 now when 我们 put 'em in the plate, it just makes sense at the nutritional 水平. If 你 think 关于 it, every time 那 我们 go to eat, how is it 那 我们 arrange 那 plate? Right? There is some rice which is 非常 deficient in some essential amino acids, 但 it's reaching carbohydrates. It has some beans, 和 then there's some lettuce, 和 sometimes 我们 have 对于 omnivores, 人们 会 put meat 或 你 会 put other types of protein in there.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

和 certainly it varies by culture, time of year, food availability, 和 things of 那 sort. As long as 我们're talking 关于 你的 upbringing, 你 have a fascinating story, so maybe 我们 could discuss 那 对于 a few 分钟. Where were 你 born?

Diego Bohórquez:

I was born in the Amazonia of Ecuador, a small town called El Chaco in Ecuador is on the slopes of the eastern slopes of the Andes. On the way to the Amazonia in the Napa province, coincidentally, was 通过 the path 从 where Francisco Diora in 1542 March on its way to the discovery of the Amazon actually passed 通过 a trail 那 later on reading, I realized 那 native 人们 had all of 这些 trails between the Amazonia 和 the coastal line 对于 thousands of years.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

你 grew up in a 非常 rural

Diego Bohórquez:

Yes. The oil had been detected in the 1920s in Ecuador. It was 首先 explorer in 1964, in the 首先 oil well was in a town called Lario, which now is only 三 或 four 小时 从 the town where I grew up. 但 at 那 time it was like eight 小时. The roads were not good, 和 the 首先 road passed 通过 it in 1974. I was born in 1983, 但 I remember 那 我们 used to have a giant diesel engine 那 会 give us a light electricity only 从 seven to 9:00 PM I remember when my father bought the 首先 color television in the town, 和 then neighbors 会 come to 我们的 living room 和 then 我们'll watch movies.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

和 这 was in the eighties?

Diego Bohórquez:

那 was in the eighties, right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Such an interesting upbringing. So did 你 eat a purely vegetarian diet 或 你 ate meats as well? Where did 那些 meats come 从 if 你 did?

Diego Bohórquez:

Primarily 从 a cattle goats ship.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So how do 你 go 从 the Amazon to a 研究 of nutrition 和 ultimately neuroscience?

Diego Bohórquez:

Yeah, 那's the question, right? The deeper I go, the 更多 I question 这. I used to think 那, oh, it was 非常 simple. When I was, specifically when I was 11 years old, my father, he was born in 1932. By 19, he lost his father, my grandfather, when he was six years old, 和 he was given away 和 he had to go 和 build his life. He was a 非常 successful entrepreneur, 但 in the process, he had made a lot of friends 和 acquaintances. So when I was 11 years old, I remember specifically 那 a friend of his who was in the special forces stopped by 我们的 home 因为 那 was the main road 那 我们 go 进入, the Amazon jungle where the folks in the special forces in the military 会 be trained. 和 he stopped by 和 say like, Hey, Rogelio, what are 你 going to do 与 Diego?

I think 那 it is 关于 time 那 I think 那 你 应该 send him to the military school. 和 I remember in a matter of literally a couple of 周 或 三 周, I had taken the tests 和 I was accepted 进入 the military school. 和 then I ended up in a military school. 和 这 was, at 那 time it was the premier military in the country. 那 alone 与 years, 你 start to understand the context in which 你 developed 因为 it was a 非常 interesting context 对于 a child. Just to give 你 an idea, 这些, 这 school had the 首先 和 the only zoo in the country. So 从 my classroom, I 会 literally look at the lions. 和 then I think 那 was by the 秒 year 那 I was in the school, 秒 或 third year 那 became 那 因为 the city started to grow 和 then the military school is wrong, 和 then they separated the higher education 对于 military officers. They separated them 和 they put them in a 不同的 place. 但 那 zoo actually became the 首先 zoo of the capital of ton.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Wait, so 你 had a zoo 与 lions at 你的 school? Yes. 和 你 said 你 could see the lions 从 你的 classroom 和 they could see 你 presumably

Diego Bohórquez:

Probably know them

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, I assume they could see 你 were line vision is pretty good. I don't know what the resolution is, 但 I'm guessing 那 their vision, they definitely use their olfaction, 但 they are site-based hunters as well. 但

Diego Bohórquez:

I have a specifically 一 memory climbing up. I think it was 从 the, 因为 我们 had an Olympic pool 和 我们 had all of 这些 events. The soccer field was the field where national team 会 go 和 train on 因为 they didn't have their own 训练 grounds later on. They had their own 训练 grounds. 但 那 was something 那 你 just grow 进入 it. 但 it was 与 the years 和 now 尤其是 那 I get to reflect on it, I was extremely fortunate 通过 那 experience 和 那 education, 和 now I'm here sharing some of the story 和 hopefully 通过 那, inspiring some 人们, 尤其是 young 人们 那 会 like to go 和 chase their dreams.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So 你 went to military school in Ecuador? Yeah. 你 graduated 和 你 decided to go to

Diego Bohórquez:

Yeah, so I want to become, so in the military school, they 会 select the top cadets, I think it was the top 10%, 和 they 会 select them 和 they 会 put them 通过 a special 训练. So 你 have 本质上, I didn't have what was a normal summer vacation. I 会 go 进入 military 训练. So 对于 me, it was going to be 非常, not easy, 但 relatively straightforward to transition 进入 Officer's Academy, do four 更多 years like West Point here, 和 then become an officer. In fact, I had a reserves officer degree when I graduated, 但 二 years 之前 graduating, a friend of mine who he preferred other types of careers, he said, 你're not going to become a military. 你're not going to go 进入 the military. 和 he said, 你 应该 probably 研究 something 那 会 help 你的 parents. 和 then I said, what 会 那 be?

和 he said, perhaps agriculture. 和 I didn't think at 那 time it didn't dawn on me 那 人们 可以 研究 对于 agriculture 和 agriculture is the base of food 对于 all of us. 和 then I said, where? 和 then he mentioned 对于 the 首先 time, 这 university in Zamarano, which was founded 与 some funds 那 were donated by the founder of the Standard Fruit Company, which eventually became I think Chick Banana. 和 那 is a oasis 那 is in Honduras outside of Tepa. So it's a boarding school. 你 wear uniforms. So it was kind of like military. It was 非常 strict. 你 cannot accumulate 更多 than 12 demerits, otherwise they 会 send 你 home.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

How do 你 get a demerit?

Diego Bohórquez:

你 show up 二 分钟 late to work in the 早晨 at 6:00 AM in the field, 和 then 你 just get 二

安德鲁·休伯曼：

分钟 late, 一 demerit, 12 of 那些, 你're out. 二

Diego Bohórquez:

Demerits.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

二 demerits, 你're

Diego Bohórquez:

Out. 我们 used to get, they 会 check 你的 room. So 对于 instance, a guest like 你, if 你 会 go there, they 会 give 你, every Wednesday they had 7:00 PM They 会 check 你的 room, 但 非常 meticulously. 和 if they found a little bit of a dust on the window 或 something to the merits 和 你're going home, if 你 accumulate enough, 你 会 go home. Right. Wow. So it 确实 forms character. Right. Do

安德鲁·休伯曼：

你 do 那 与 你的 kids?

Diego Bohórquez:

No, I think 那 I have become married. Do they

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Make their beds?

Diego Bohórquez:

They do make their beds, yeah. Yeah. Okay. 但 那 was the context. 和 it was then where I learned 关于 二 things. 一 is where 这 idea of getting a PhD, 因为 I noticed 那 most of the leaders 会 have a PhD, most of the leaders in the university. 和 I realized in the United States is 一 of the 训练 grants, main 训练 grants 对于 PhDs. 和 the other 一 was nutrition. I was a little bit 更多 keen on perhaps going 进入 a veterinary school. 和 then I had an experience in a dairy farm in California where I learned the value of nutrition 那 was 更多 prophylactic rather than a palliative 或 treating the cow. 和 那 kind of convinced me to look 对于 a 训练 in nutrition. 和 then a friend of mine, the late Abel, he was able to connect me 与 some friends 和 my mentor at North Carolina State University.

和 那's where I ended up doing my PhD in nutrition. 和 那's where the career became. 和 then maybe another detail in there is 那 I was so excited 关于 taking, 那's where I took my 首先 physiology class, 和 all of a sudden I realized 那 in a way, the 身体 was like a machine. Obviously it's a limited way of thinking, 但 the 身体 was like a machine. 和 一 of the professors was a neuroscientist. 和 I took 二 physiologists, 二 human physiologists 与 him. 和 I was just thrilled by when he 会 explain how 那 in the synaptic terminal, there were 这些 vesicles 那 had 这些 proteins 那 会 walk the vesicle in the presynaptic active zone. 和 那's how 我们 make movement 或 something like 那. 和 I guess I kept 那 in the background of my head, 和 when I had the opportunity to work in the gut, I applied 那.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So 你 were enchanted by the 神经系统?

Diego Bohórquez:

Yes,

安德鲁·休伯曼：

As I was too. Nothing to me is 更多 spectacular then the realization 那 我们 are made up of 这些 little tiny cells, many 不同的 types, 但 那 the neurons 本质上 govern 我们的 entire experience of life. It's just amazing. Well, 那's quite a journey 从 the Amazon to well, 这 table 和 much 更多. Of course. Thank 你 对于 sharing 那. So 你 grew up in a, let's call it a plant rich environment, the Amazon, at least 从 the pictures I've seen. Let's talk 关于 plants, botanicals, 和 the idea 那 maybe plants, 对于 lack of a better way to put it, have a certain intelligence 或 a composition 那 is not random 与 respect to 我们的 interactions 与 them. 你 described how agriculture in some places has evolved to include 和 ensure the 不同的 macronutrients 和 essential amino acid intake even in the absence of animal proteins, use it, the pumpkin 或 the squash, the corn 和 the beans. What are 你的 thoughts on plants perhaps 从 the Amazon, 但 elsewhere too in their capacity to have things in them, chemicals 那 可以 be good 对于 us at the 水平 of the gut, 但 perhaps at the 水平 of the 大脑 或 other organs as well? How do 你 think 关于 plants 这些 天?

Diego Bohórquez:

So the 首先 thing 你 mentioned there, like intelligence, right? I mean, I don't know 那 exact terminology applies, 但 I do like 这 word wisdom 因为 it's reflective experience. 和 I say reflective experience 因为 somehow 我们 are going over the experience 和 plants have been many 更多 millions years of age on earth than any other animal. 因此 they have had way 更多 time to actually experience the ground. So to think 那 they dunno what is going on, I think it's a little bit, perhaps naive is the word. I went to the main court of 这些 Mayan ruins of copan, the junction between Honduras 和 Guatemala. 这 was a 非常 special city of the Mayans. 和 in the main core 你 see all of 这些 Astellas, which are the main stones of the kings of several dynasties. 和 at the top of 一 of the stairs on 这些 pyramids, there is 这 giant seva tree, which is like 650 years old, something like 那.

So 那 tree was there 之前 the Spaniards landed in there when the Mayans perhaps were still celebrating things 或 perhaps right 之后 it. So imagine how much information 那 the organism has in there, 和 我们 会 be able to just tap somehow 进入 那 information like climate fluctuations, organisms, interactions, movements, I mean so many 不同的 things like 那. Right now, I don't think 那 我们 even have the language of being able to understand at the organism 水平 of how much information 那 is stored in 一 single 一 of 那些 organisms. 但 then think 关于 a chloroplast, 对于 instance, 或 一 of the photosynthetic organelles inside of the cells. How is it 那 they have been shaped 对于 hundreds of years in 那些 organisms?

和 I think 那 perhaps in the future, 这 is 更多 of a sci-fi right now, 但 perhaps in the future 我们 会 be able to harvest 那 type of wisdom. 我们'll be able to understand a lot 关于 the place 或 the earth 那 我们 live in. 那's point number 一. Point number 二 is 那 这些 plants have been interacting 和 我们 have been interacting 与 plants 对于 hundreds of years. 和 obviously 我们 are a consequence of the environment. Like here, driving in LA 或 driving in a major city 对于 some of us is just like 秒 nature. 但 if 你 go 进入 a jungle, then all of a sudden it 会 not be the same thing. 但 对于 somebody 那 has been in the jungle 对于 hundreds of years, now all of a sudden they are able to describe 与 such a sensitivity of how it is 那 the jungle is, the makeup of the jungle is in there.

I've seen native 人们 walking 通过 the jungle 没有 shoes 和 right 之前 stepping on a leaf, stopping 和 then pointing out, look underneath 那 leaf 和 then lifting it out, 和 then a tarantula right there. How do 你 even make sense of 那? I don't have the sensory acuity 或 the wisdom to be able to figure 那 out, 但 they do. 和 certainly 那 is just a 水平 of sensory perception 那 I am not equipped 与. 但 I do think 那 there's quite a bit of 那 interaction in there to learn. 和 then of course, not only 对于 food, 但 also 对于 medicine, 对于 textiles 和 对于 many other functions, 这些 plants have been part of the ecosystem of how 这些 人们 navigate their world, all the way 从 making a canoe to making a backpack to carry fish 从 the river 进入 the house. So

安德鲁·休伯曼：

How do 你 think 我们 evolved food choices 和 flavor preferences? I imagine humans 那 existed long 之前 us being hungry, the gut starts rumbling 和 there are all 这些 plants everywhere, some nuts 和 some berries 和 things. 和 so they had presumably no choice 但 to consume them 和 decide at the 水平 of the mouth like, 那's bitter. No, 那's not good. Maybe eventually cook 那些 和 see if 那 changes the relationship. I'm thinking raw acorn versus cooked acorn, 但 那 ultimately there was a lot of trial 和 error 和 那 这些 neuro pod cells, which surely existed 对于 a 非常 long time prior to us, played a key role in discerning what's in 这些 plants, barks, roots, nuts, berries 我们're setting aside meats 对于 the moment 和 other animal proteins 和 making decisions 关于 what's nutritious, what is safe, what is not safe. 和 那's a pretty complex process given 那 some things 可能 taste okay, go down, 但 then 你 run 进入 serious trouble later.

但 given 那 critical importance of ingesting sufficient amounts of macronutrients 和 the need 对于 micronutrients to survive on a 天-to-天 basis, much 更少 reproduce propagate 一 imagines 那 这 is almost as essential as breathing 和 那 这 path in 我们的 神经系统 of the neuro pod cells to the 大脑 对于 sake of decision-making of yum, yuck 或 meh is perhaps 一 of the most 重要 core functions of the 神经系统. Once 你 get past the elements 那 control, breathing, 心率, 温度, regulation, things of 那 sort. I see it as among the senses, it's at least 重要 as vision 和 perhaps 更多 in terms of making sure 那 我们 survive 从 天 to 天.

Diego Bohórquez:

那's correct. 和 here's where I think there is a large vacuum in biology. If I 会 be 与 my biological, my 训练 in biology, if I 会 put my hat of the 训练 in biology, I wouldn't be able to explain much of how is it 那 我们 figure it out? 因为 even if 你 just go to a botanical, a garden here in the city, I 会 be 确实 hard to figure out what plant is 对于 what, right? Yeah,

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What safety, eat what,

Diego Bohórquez:

What's safe to eat, what is not do

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Need to cook it 或

Diego Bohórquez:

Not. Maybe like the cacti, 你 are able to figure 那 out by touch. So 从 the biological perspective, I think 那 there is quite a bit in there to explore 和 to learn. There is some 非常 interesting work 从 the anthropological perspective. So anthropologists 和 botanists 那 were studying the plants, were exploring the jungles, not only the Amazon, 但 Borneo, Sri Lanka 和 so on 和 so forth, 和 studying the interaction of native 人们 与 the plants. 和 if going 通过 the literature, 那 literature, there is a pattern 那 emerges, unlike the native 人们, they talk 关于 how it is 那 they actually learn 从 the plants, 那 the plants were the ones 那 were teach them. So 那's why I said 从 the biological perspective, how 可以 我们 reconcile 那? I think 那 there is still quite a bit to learn.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What does 那 mean to learn 从 the plants? I mean there's something 那 intuitively makes sense when 你 say 那. I've heard 关于 looking at plants as teachers 关于 the local environment when they're open, their light sensing when they're closed. 但 in terms of translating some of 那 to how humans have learned to navigate given environments, navigate meaning sort of thrive in 那些 environments, how do 我们 go 关于 那? Does it mean taking plants, grinding them up 和 figuring out the constituent parts, 或 is 那 too reductionist? Is 那 going to leave us 与 a parts list 那 doesn't mean anything? Sort of like if I splayed out all the pieces of a car 或 an airplane in front of us, it doesn't 确实 tell us anything 关于 那, except what parts make up the thing 那 flies.

Diego Bohórquez:

Yes. 和 那's why I said 这 is 更多 on the anthropological 研究 那 have, 尤其是 从 scientists 那 have gone there, learn the language, leave 与 the natives as natives, 和 then start to understand the dynamic of their culture 和 their interactions, then 那's when, 对于 instance, how it is 那 they classify plants. The way 那 they classify plants is several 水平 更多 richer than 我们的 classification 或 我们的 scientific classification by the 二 name 系统 或 the variety. 对于 instance, they take 进入 account not only the flavor, 但 also the shape, the location, how they interact over the year, how they react over the year. 对于 instance, there is 这 beautiful plant 那 人们 call it the lips plant. I don't know if 你 have, 但 if 你 Google it, 你 会 see it looks

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Like lips,

Diego Bohórquez:

Literally like lips. It has 这些 red, beautiful lips like the plant. It just looks like lips. 和 then 人们 use it 对于 a pain, 对于 some rashes, 皮肤 rashes, 和 also in some rituals. 和 most of 这些 plants, the way 那 the natives interact 与 the plants is in a sacred 水平, there is 这 respect 对于 the plant. So yeah, I think 那 biologically, I think 那 there is quite a bit in there to understand 和 explore 和 define. I do agree 与 你 那 just thinking 关于 grinding it up 和 just putting it in a tip perhaps is to a reductionist. It could be a beginning of understanding, 但 it is reductionist.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It seems like nowadays in the field of biomedical 研究 和 clinical 研究 那 there's a lot of interest in plant-based psychedelics, LSD 从 ergot 和 O, psilocybin mushroom 和 so on 和 so forth, ayahuasca iboga. So it seems like science 和 plants have merged at 那 水平 in terms of clinical implications. Of course, there are entire fields of plant biology 那 are extremely 重要. I think most 人们 probably don't realize 这, 但 a lot of what 我们 understand 关于 circadian rhythms

Grew, no pun intended, out of 我们的 understanding of plant circadian rhythms 首先. 和 then it was translated to mammals, beautiful work by Steve K 和 others, seeing the circadian rhythms in leaf opening 和 orientation of the whole plant 和 other features of plants 那 are mirrored by the changes in arousal 水平 in mammals, including us, which is why I'm 总是 telling 人们 to get sunlight in their eyes early in the 天 和 to avoid bright light in the 晚上 和 nighttime. So what are 你的 thoughts on plants as a source of medicine, psychedelic 或 otherwise?

Diego Bohórquez:

I think 那, well, traditionally 那's where medicine was developed 从. I was at the Oxford Botanical Gardens last year 与 the family, 和 我们 went 进入 the gardens 和 have a beautiful garden. It was established in 1621, I think it was the 首先 botanical gardens in England, 和 they have a beautiful medicinal plant collection. 和 there was 这 非常 humble what little sign 与 a description in there 那 said in there 那 关于 80% of medicine still comes straight 从 plants. 确实? Yes. 和 if 你 think 关于 it, it kind of makes sense, right? 因为 when 我们 think 关于 the medicines 那 我们 have been able to develop, which are having phenomenal 对于, 尤其是 对于 certain chronic diseases, 但 我们 don't have a broad repertoire of it.

So I think 那 has been obviously a great advance in 我们的 society 那 我们 have been able to identify the molecules, synthesize the molecules, package the molecules, render them bioavailable in 具体的 sites. 和 I think 那 when 我们 are able to couple 那 与 the rest of the molecules, 那 the plants 通过 their, I keep saying their wisdom 因为 somehow they develop their ability to have not only 一 molecule, 但 a combination of other things 那 会 provide the full experience of the plant. 对于 instance, JBA is not only caffeine 因为 it is 非常 不同的 than a shot of espresso. If 你 take the whole thing, it not only gives 你 能量, 但 it gives 你 a full range of an experience 那 is 具体的 to the Y, which is a leaf, right?

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah. It's a distinctly 不同的 subjective experience than coffee. 和 I enjoy both coffee 和 espresso 和 y mate, 你 were the 一 who introduced me to Gua Gua, which

Diego Bohórquez:

Is a costing of J mate, 因为 jva mate is Iex para genis. Waa is Iex waa, 和 it is not as bitter as mate, 但 it has almost as much caffeine as coffee, 和 it has antioxidants 和 other compounds, which give 你 这些 非常 smooth experience. So natives in the Amazon, they take a drink of Waa every 早晨 大约 4:00 AM between four 和 6:00 AM Oh, they wake

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Up early,

Diego Bohórquez:

They actually call it, yes.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

这 is like Jocko Willink early. Yeah, some 人们 understand 那 joke. He wakes up every 早晨 four 30, 和 he posts a picture of his Cassio watch. Yep. 和 he's already 训练 four 30, so no guso required 对于 Jocko,

Diego Bohórquez:

和 they call it the Waa ura, the 小时 of the Waa, 和 is ritualistic drinking of the Waa Waa in the 早晨, 和 where they talk as a family of the issues 那 they have had the 天 之前 或 the 周 之前, either 与 other communities within the family, if they have to reprimand 或 reprimand 一 of the children 或 talk to them 关于 some mistakes 那 they're making. 和 then they plan the full 天 of activities by drinking Waa. 和 大约 five 30, 因为 they 会 boil the Waa 和 they keep boiling the Waa 和 they just keep adding 水 to it. 和 then 大约 5, 5 30, then they 会 have what is called is a bowl of chta. 和 Chta is 这 pound date 非常 reaching lipids 和 fibers. So they 会 have the waa 因为 the Waa, they say 那 gives them 能量, it heals any pain, it shuts down appetite. So they 会 eat at 3:00 PM shuts down 或 modulates appetite,

安德鲁·休伯曼：

As does y mate. 那些 are 一 of the 更多 potent effects actually of mate in Gua is a mild to moderate appetite suppression.

Diego Bohórquez:

和 then if 你 combine 那 to Chta, which gives 你 the lipids, 和 then it's like a full meal 对于 until 3:00 PM 和 then they go 和 now work in the fields.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting. So they're 本质上 starting the 天 与 hydration, caffeine, 和 then what in some circles they call fat fasting, meaning consuming lipids in order to stave off hunger. I mean highest density source of calories among the macronutrients.

Diego Bohórquez:

和 is a vegetable based diet, I guess 你're right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Are they a healthy culture? Do they live a long time?

Diego Bohórquez:

I am not the, I 应该 probably do 更多 reading 那. I'm not well educated in what are the 研究 那 have follow up in the healthy status of the communities. 但 what I 可以 tell 你 is 那 at least colloquially, I'll say 那 the diabetes, 那些 type of issues are not as prevalent, 但 they do have, obviously 通过 social exposure, they have other things.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Fascinating 这 早晨 ritual of conversation 关于 family 和 culture 和 what's needed planning the 天. 我们 had on 这 podcast as a guest, Dr. Sachin Panda, who is at the Salk Institute 对于 Biological 研究, 经常 known 对于 his work on intermittent fasting, time restricted feeding, 但 also has done beautiful circadian biology. 和 he talked 关于 the use of fireside chats, not the sort on stage, 但 gathering 大约 fire at 夜间 is something 那 has existed in many cultures where 人们 reflect on the previous 天 和 discuss issues, social 和 work issues 和 dissect what's happened 和 talk. 和 it's 关于 building 和 repairing relationships. Sounds like in 这, what is 这 group? Is it a rural, is 这 Yeah,

Diego Bohórquez:

Native community, 因为 there are 关于 70 或 so communities 那 have been documented in the Amazonia 与 their own language, 与 their own traditions. 和 many of them share the same type of traditions. 和 if 你 think 关于 it like a podcast is 一 way of an evolution of 那 conversation where 我们 可以 have 这 extended conversation 和 get 这些, the 更多 primordial things, the ones 那 我们 have them in the prefrontal cortex right away 和 discuss 关于, well, 这 discovers 这些 identifications, 但 then 我们 get to the part of what does it mean 对于 the whole community?

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, there's doing, there's reflecting 和 then there's resting 和 recovering,

Diego Bohórquez:

和 there is something 关于 leaving 那 对于 the next generation, right?

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah. Passing on of lessons, better learn 从 the mistakes 和 successes of others if 你 可以 as 你 go forward. 非常 interesting. If 我们 could, I'd like to now return to the biology, the 神经系统. Absolutely. 和 thank 你 对于 那 voyage 通过 some of 你的 background in Ecuador. Fascinating. I do 对于 a mug of guayusa, sometimes I'll mix the 二, the loose leaf Yoruba mate 和 the gua. 和 as 你 said, what's, how

Diego Bohórquez:

Does it feel?

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I 确实 like it. Most of the time it's loose leaf yerba mate 或 co brew yerba mate. 但 sometimes I'll mix in the gua leaves. 和 what I do like as 你 mentioned, is 你 可以 continue to pour 水 over them 对于 many 小时 和 it tastes 不同的 as the time goes on. 和 my guess is 你're extracting 不同的 things 从 it in 不同的 concentrations as time goes on. I realize it's not a precise science. It's interesting. Today 我们're talking 关于 非常 precise neurons 和 methods of tracing neurons 和 sensing of 具体的 amino acids 和 lipids at the 水平 of the gut. 和 then 我们're also going to 更多 macroscopic view, a kind of broader scale view of the plants having many things 那 need to coexist in certain ratios 那 the plants have evolved to create 对于 us. So 我们're sort of straddling both ends of the continuum.

Diego Bohórquez:

和 if I could fit in their story, no long ago I visited a friend, a native friend in a nearby town, 和 he produces some of the best chocolate, what I'll say in the planet, 因为 actually the plants of the Broma cacao, it was recently documented. There was a paper in science not long ago 那 it was domesticated in Ecuador in near where I grew up, 和 they have done some tracing 和 genetic tracing, 和 so he produces some of the best chocolate, literally he harvested in there 和 then he roast it, grind it, 和 then he prepared it 对于 us in there. 和 he mix,

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The Swiss are saying the Belgians right, claim the best chocolate. 但 now 我们 know Ecuador is the place 对于 the best chocolate. I think I just got a lot of Swiss 和 Belgians angry at me 对于 saying 那. 但 do they have a 非常 dark variety? I like the extreme dark varieties. 95%, even a hundred percent chocolate if it comes 从 a 确实 quality source 可以 be absolutely delicious.

Diego Bohórquez:

It's like milk straight 从 the cow. 和 what he did is he said, Diego, 你 have to try it 与 Waa. 和 he mix the chocolate 与 waa

安德鲁·休伯曼：

As a drink,

Diego Bohórquez:

As a brew, as a drink boy, 那 会 give 你 wings.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Gua hot

Diego Bohórquez:

Chocolate. Yes. 和 it is a 非常 smooth experience. 你're mixing 这些 tea, which is 对于 能量 与 chocolate of the best quality.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So 我们're not talking 关于 eating chocolate 和 drinking tea. 我们're talking 关于 melting the chocolate in the gua. In the gua.

Diego Bohórquez:

It was something like 一 of what kind, of course I couldn't sleep until 3:00 AM I think, right?

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There's something to do. Maybe 这 is why 这些 groups drink the gua so early in the 天.

Diego Bohórquez:

那's right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah. 和 I have to imagine I 会 need caffeine at 4:00 AM 5:00 AM otherwise I'd be falling back asleep. So back in the gut 和 神经系统 in particular within the 大脑, 我们 haven't talked 关于 the 大脑 so much, 我们 可以 not talk. So the information 从 the gut is sent via 这些 neuro pod cells up to 你 mentioned the no dose ganglion, such a cool name 对于 a 大脑. 和 a ganglion in 这 instance is an aggregate of neurons. So it's like a batch of neurons 那 then send a connection 进入 the 大脑. What 大脑 areas do they send it to? 和 maybe 我们 could describe 这些 by name, 但 also by function, what they generally are responsible 对于

Diego Bohórquez:

和 probably 应该 be prefaced 与. Ultimately 我们'll go to the entire 大脑.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Everything ultimately connects to everything like Google Maps, everything connects to everything. 但 what are some of the primary recipients

Diego Bohórquez:

Of 那 information? The 首先 hubs of sensor integration are in the brainstem. 和 对于 instance, the nucleus tractors. Solitary is in 具体的 region within the 大脑. The coral is 一 area.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

和 NTS 对于 那些 那 don't know is involved in regulating hunger 和 appetite.

Diego Bohórquez:

那's correct. Other functions perhaps. 但 对于 instance, 那 seems to be an area of sensory integration 对于 nutrients.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

和 when 我们 say drives hunger 或 appetite, sensory integration 对于 nutrients, I mean, what 会 be great is if 人们 could understand the language of the 神经系统 is chemical 和 electrical. So when 这些 neurons are active, 我们 tend to crave certain foods, seek them, literally go to the refrigerator among the 不同的 choices, go to 那 thing 和 select 那 和 put it 进入 我们的 mouth. 那's correct. So presumably it's driving reward 系统, motor 系统, I mean what 我们 call hunger 和 appetite is 确实 a kind of domino effect of a lot of 不同的 大脑 回路. Do 我们 know whether 或 not the nucleus, tractus, soli terrace projects to the areas of the 大脑 involved in 多巴胺 释放 和 craving?

Diego Bohórquez:

Yes, 和 there has been some elegant work 从 several 不同的 neuroscientists in 这 area, like tracking the circuitry 从 there onto many other 不同的 areas. The hypothalamus, 对于 instance, 非常 basic behavioral functions 和 the stray AUM where there is 多巴胺 释放. 和 then there is 这 pleasurable sensation 和 reward. There is several other areas in there 那 are involved in 这 sensory integration. There is quite a bit of work still to be done 从, specifically 从 the neuro pods. There is some 证据 那 they're connecting directly to, 或 if 你 put 二 papers together, it is obvious 那 they're connecting to some of 这些 areas of 多巴胺 释放, basal ganglia in the 大脑, 和 那's why they're causing 这 reinforcing effect like in the lateral hypothalamus 和 other areas. I do think 那 ultimately there is quite a bit of a gap in 不同的 regions of the digestive tract.

Today 我们 just talk 关于 the sugo, right? The sugo. I think 那 still there is a little bit of work perhaps. I think 那 Steve Lili has worked in 那 area 和 other great neuroscientists doing some verifying detailed work in sensory biology 和 the esophagus sugo. There is quite a bit of lack of precise biology in how it is 那 the sugo 具体的 cells of the sugo are inated 或 making sense of the environment. Same thing 对于 the stomach 和 how it is 那 ultimately each 一 of 那些 regions are fitting 进入 不同的 regions of the 大脑. Even then how each 一 of 这些 valves, I'm fascinated by each 一 of the valves 那 我们 talked early on, like the gastroesophageal sphincter 或 the prose 或 the IAL junction.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah. 我们 应该 illustrate 对于 人们, I'm not an expert in the gut by any means, 但 what Dr. Borque is referring to is 那 the gut as it extends 从 the mouth to the rectum, is not just a series of tubes of 不同的 diameters, 但 rather they have valves, chambers, 和 这些 sphincters 那 cut off. Everyone hears the word sphincter 和 they 总是 think, oh, anal sphincter. 和 then they ha, it's like elementary school, middle school humor. 但 sphincters, they literally 可以 close 和 open to varying extent in order to allow passage 或 prohibit passage 从 一 compartment to the next such 那 certain things 可以 take place over time in 一 region like the esophagus 或 within the stomach 或 之前 passing to other chambers. 和 so I hear 你 saying 那 critical processing is happening at each of 这些 chambers. The sphincters are determining how long 那 processing occurs, 和 那 distinct sets of neuro pod cells are 可能 detecting distinct qualities 和 quantities within the food, chemical qualities 和 quantities within the food 和 relaying 那 to the 大脑.

Diego Bohórquez:

那's correct. 和 here's something 那 since 我们're getting 进入 the future of 这 area, 和 while there is not direct published 证据 yet, I think 那 is going to be a fun area. So the gut, as the 大脑 also generates 这些 electrical patterns, 那些 electrical patterns change depending on fasting versus feeding 和 circadian rhythms probably cannot realize jet lag. The gut is asking 你 对于 a burger at 3:00 AM 和 你的 大脑 is telling the gut, 可以 你 please go to sleep? So 这些 electrical patterns, 这些 electrical waves 那 are going 进入, 那 are being propagated by the gastrointestinal tract. There are several 不同的 cells, like the entera neurons are coordinating 这些 cells. There are also 这些 interstitial cells of Cajal. So Santiago Ramonica Hall,

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The greatest neurobiologist of all time.

Diego Bohórquez:

那's right. It was named 之后 him. He actually has, I think it's in the 秒 volume of his classic book on the histology of the 神经系统. 一 of the last figures talks 关于 the innervation of the vli in the intestine. Some beautiful.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

对于 那些 那 don't know, Kahal shared the Nobel Prize 与 Camille GOGI in 1906. They together developed tools 和 mapped the structure of the 神经系统. 和 it's to say 那 Kahal had supernatural 水平 of insight 进入 the 神经系统. He looked at the nervous 系统 of so many 不同的 animals in dead specimens. The joke, even though it's not funny, is 那 many animal species entered his laboratory, 非常 few walked out. 但 by looking at fixed specimens under the microscope 和 then drawing them in select elements within them 本质上 came up 与 most of the major hypotheses 关于 how the 神经系统 works. Not just structure, 但 neuroplasticity. The failure mammalian, central 神经系统 neurons to regenerate. 这 is why 之后 traumatic 大脑 injury 或 stroke, there's 经常 loss of function 那 doesn't recover. Sometimes it recovers. 和 那 人们 who have injuries younger 经常 可以 recover certain functions. Everything 从 the direction of electrical flow 通过 the 神经系统, all 从 looking at 组织 那 was not alive, no electrophysiology, no behavioral experiments. Just raw 但 incredible, supernatural, seemingly 水平 of intuition 和 insight. Amazing.

Diego Bohórquez:

Yes. There is some quote in 一 of his books 那 when he got invited to 一 of his friends to England, I don't remember, it was a famous neuroscientist at the time in the late 18 hundreds who had helped him to expose his work to other audiences 和 invited him to England. So he said in there 那 it took like 三 months to go to 那 podcast. It was a 三 month trip. So he said 那 he brought his microscope

安德鲁·休伯曼：

与

Diego Bohórquez:

Him, of course, 非常 in the room, he 会 be able to do some of 这些 observations.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah. Peculiar guy. Also known 对于 carrying a 非常 heavy iron umbrella in order to do physical 运动 on the way to the lab. He was a 非常, 非常 fit physical specimen. Also, purportedly, reportedly, I know, pick which 一. A pretty gruff person. Not terribly pleasant to be 大约. Ran a tight ship. 但 in any event, so the cells of the gut are named 之后, some of them are named 之后 Kaha, interstitial cells of Kaha. Of Kaha. There 你 just got a waltz 进入 some neuroscience history, 但 critical history.

Diego Bohórquez:

So they have 这些 eliminating electricity 和 so far 这些, 和 it seems like the sprinklers modulate the emanation of 这 electricity.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, like an instrument.

Diego Bohórquez:

和 你 probably think like 那 因为 the intestine, 和 maybe here 我们 get a little bit even deeper 进入 这, 和 I read some work 从 a philosopher in the UK who was, 和 I'm going to paraphrase it 非常 largely, so please don't quote me, 但 it is something along the lines 那 if 我们 are what 我们 eat, the place where food becomes us 和 我们 become food 应该 be intestine 因为 那 is where food is actually absorbed. So 那 is a 非常 fascinating point. Number 二 is 那 the food enters us at a frequency 那 it 会 modulate the entire 身体. 因此 the 身体 通过 这些 electricity, 这些 electrical waves 应该 be in sync 与 also the electricity of the entire 神经系统. So I think 那 here's where in the future, I think 那 there's going to be a fascinating realm of understanding how it is 那 这些 waves of the 身体 和 the 大脑 are synchronized 与 each other.

因为 as 我们 know, 对于 instance, sometimes when 我们 are hungry, 我们 become hangry. 我们 become irritated by the fact 那 我们 don't have food 和 perhaps is 这 dissonance in the emanation of the electrical waves between the digestive tract, the 神经系统. So I think 那 那 is just 一 of the realms of how it is 那 the 大脑 is connected to the gut at a 更多 organ to organ 水平 to be able to make us function ultimately 因为 I, 那's how 我们 are integrating the outside world, the food 进入 我们的 entire 系统 so 我们 可以 maintain the entire organism.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well certainly 我们的 水平 of alertness is linked to 我们的 水平 of anticipation 和 a lot of 我们的 food anticipation impacts 我们的 水平 of arousal, AKA alertness. So as 你 mentioned, 我们're a diurnal species, so in the middle of the 夜间 it's unusual to get hungry. A lot of 这些 通路 are shut down, digestion is happening at 不同的 rates 和 通常 我们的 appetite is greater 期间 the 天 than it is in the middle of the 夜间. 那's right. 但 in addition to 那, it makes good sense to me 那 what is going on at the 水平 of 我们的 gut is going to tell the 大脑, did 我们 get enough nutrients 从 the previous 天? Are 我们 in a place of abundance? There's also the psychological aspect of gut sensing 和 我们 haven't 确实 touched on 那. What are 你的 thoughts as both a scientist 和 a human 与 a gut 大脑 access on 这 notion of kind of gut intuition?

你 meet certain 人们 和 it sort relaxes 和 warms 你 和 你 want to get to know them 更多. Other 人们, 对于 whatever reason, 你 just feel like, I dunno, something doesn't feel quite right 那 我们 可以 sense things at the 水平 of the 身体 那 inform 我们的 大脑 和 no 一 确实 understands 那 process yet. 但 我们 do know 那 the vagus nerve, which is a multi-pronged 通路, big 通路, it's probably its own major branch of the 神经系统, 确实 is sending bidirectional communication between 大脑和身体. 和 presumably when 我们're 大约 somebody 或 something 那 doesn't feel right, the Vegas is involved.

Diego Bohórquez:

A few interesting things in 那 area in the work of Carl Leon talks 关于 it, 关于 the subconscious 和 how it is 那 我们 are accumulating all of 这些 experiences 那 我们 have been passing 通过 in life is not 那 they are not a store anymore, it's just 那 they are back in the subconscious 和 then ultimately they become part of 这. So-called intuition, 我们 have 这 gut feeling 那, 和 if 我们 analyze some of the languages, I think 那 in past 人们 have told me in so many 不同的 languages 那 there is 这 phrase 对于 gut feelings in so many. 对于 instance, I think Portuguese is free of the barga, like 寒冷 in the stomach. 你 get a 寒冷 in Spanish, 我们 call it like a pre feeling 或 pre sensation 或 feeling. It 会 be 更多 feeling if 你 translate 那

安德鲁·休伯曼：

As if it arrives 首先.

Diego Bohórquez:

Yes. 之前 你're able to articulate it. So there is 这 storage in the entire 身体 那 gives 你, depending on the context, it gives 你 a certain type of feeling. 和 那's why 我们 talk 关于 intuition. There's also 这 other aspect of how it is 那 food synchronizes 那 intuition. It seems to synchronize 那 intuition among 二 或 更多 人们. If 你 think 关于 it, 我们 have 这 ritualistic way of serving something when 我们 commonly say 或 colloquially say, let's go 对于 a cup of coffee. 和 经常 what 我们 mean is let's go 和 talk 关于 business, the future resolve an issue, 但 我们're talking 关于 the cup of coffee 和 我们 have to share. 和 人们, I think 那 there are some psychologists 那 have ran some of 这些 研究 in which they say 那 if the food 那 我们 eat is 更多 alike, 我们 are 更多 可能 to connect at least on the moment. So there is 这 aspect 和 那's why 我们 share the food.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting. So is the idea 那 it's the actual chemical constituents of the food 那's creating a common experience 那 then allows 人们 to bond 更多 readily? 或 is it 那 the 具体的 constituents of the food are actually driving bonding per se? I mean, yeah.

Diego Bohórquez:

和 if 我们 go back to if 我们 are what 我们 eat, then 我们 eat the same thing. 我们 应该 be 更多 alike to each other. 那's why in communities 你 share the food. In fact, if 你 go 进入 certain 具体的 communities, 你 pass 大约 the food, 你 pass 大约 the drinks 和 it's 非常 common to share.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

和 certainly in romantic bonding there are many factors of course, 但 the 更多 basic functions of food, sex 和 sleep represent the common places of bonding initially 和 conversation of course 和 values, et cetera. Not to dismiss any of 那些, they're essential as well. 但 in terms of feelings of safety,

Diego Bohórquez:

那's right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Feelings of communing 与 somebody, 这些 非常 basic biological functions.

Diego Bohórquez:

和 in business too, 人们, there has been a 研究 in behavioral economists, they talk 关于 how it is 那 the business are 更多 可能 to happen when they're made over food 或 launch 或 things like 那. There's 这 synchronicity in the decision making 和 here is a third dimension on 这 area 那 it has not been well explored. 但 I suspect 那 in the near future it 会 begin to be explored. I read a while ago a 非常 elegant paper 从 Walter Cannon, so 你 may want to expand on who Walter Cannon was, 但 一 of the founding figures of the 研究 of physiology. Yeah,

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Autonomic

Diego Bohórquez:

Physiology, autonomic physiology, right. Chair of physiology at Harvard in 1920s, 1930s, author of the Wisdom of the 身体, he has a paper 或 he published a paper I believe in the 1930s. It's called Voodoo Death. Voodoo Death. 和 I remember when I found 那 title, I was like, Ooh, 这 is something to see down 和 dissect.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, good title,

Diego Bohórquez:

A good title

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If 你 want somebody to read it. Good title 和

Diego Bohórquez:

本质上 the gist of it, let me see if I 可以 do a little bit of justice, 但 obviously I 会 chop most of the details. 但 the gist of the paper is 那 in some observations in some native tribe, I believe it was in Africa, 那 if young 人们, 尤其是 young youngsters, if they were frightened by a shaman 那 they 会 not perform a certain thing, a certain task, the in 水平 of psychosis so to speak, 那 could cause death like the custom spell. 和 那's why it's called bud death. What cannon goes 和 describes is 那 is an activation of the vagus nerve 和 the peripheral 神经系统 那 is a hyperactivation 那 is going 通过 the subthreshold 水平 of consciousness. 和 那 in some of 这些 tribes, at least 那's what he explains 那 is happening. 和 I believe 那 he did some experiments in some animals, 但 what he was saying is 那 这些 a hypertonic activation of the peripheral 神经系统.

When there are 这些 spells 那 are casted by a member of the tribe 那 is in a higher 或 更多 superior 或 更多 influential position, 那 if the other member, 尤其是 if it is paired 与 something, if 你 say, if go outside 和 don't listen to what I just told 你 和 你 see a black cat, 那些 二 things match together 和 now 和 become superstitious 关于 it. 但 it is what Walter Cannon goes to explain is there is a hyperactivation of the peripheral 神经系统. Obviously there is probably 更多 details in there, 但 the paper 确实 highlights an area of exploration 那 我们 don't know 关于 这 threshold of subconsciousness of the 神经系统, how it is driving us to have superstition to drive instinctively to go 和 consume certain things 或 behave in certain ways. Right. Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So it sounds like it's paired association learning 通过 statements, cognition, 但 那's enacted 通过 the vagus in order to control the organs of the periphery. 那's nerd speak 对于 if 我们 hear 和 believe 那 certain events 会 cause certain changes in 我们的 physiology, they 可以 in some instances become capable of 那. Eat 这 food at 这 location 和 你'll get sick, eat 这 food at 这 location, 你'll feel better. 那's correct. 和 it's learned association 和 ultimately it's physiological, 但 it sounds like it's subject to a lot of learning effects. As long as 我们're talking 关于 the vagus, I think it's a great opportunity to just mention 那 a lot of 人们 understandably think 那 the vagus nerve activation is 总是 关于 calming of the 神经系统. 和 indeed it's the vagus is placed under the umbrella of a parasympathetic 通路. 但 I think it's 非常 重要 对于 人们 to know 那 both experimentally 和 clinically, if the vagus nerve is stimulated, 你 get exactly the opposite effect.

你 get arousal effects. 这 is commonly known in labs 那 do physiology of 不同的 kinds. It's in the clinical context. 人们 与 depression are sometimes treated 与 vagal nerve stimulators 和 it certainly isn't driving 更多 sedation, 更多 depression of the 神经系统. It drives alertness 和 arousal. So 我们 have to, I think, make sure 那 我们 look at the vagus 系统 和 describe the vagal 通路 as 一 那 可以 both induce states of calm, of ease, rest 和 digest as it's sometimes called, 但 also states of arousal 和 alertness, even fear. 和 so I think of the vagus as a superhighway of a bunch of 不同的 通路 与 lots of inputs 和 outputs 那's highly subject to learning. 和 indeed the vagus 可以 slow 心率 down 通过 a number of things like long exhale, breathing. Earlier 我们 were talking 关于 压力 modulation, something my lab's worked on.

Extend 你的 exhales. 那's the most basic way, physiological size 二 inhales followed by a full exhale to lungs empty. 这些 are core physiological mechanisms known to activate the vagus 和 lead to calming. 但 the vagus, I look at the vagus as kind of including both an accelerator of sorts, accelerator based 通路 in terms of arousal 和 brakes 和 probably 我们的 basal 水平 of vagal activation reflects sort of the RPM of 我们的 系统. How much are 非常 calm 或 我们 humming at a higher 水平 of activity. Such an interesting 通路, such an interesting area of the 神经系统. 和 我们 don't 确实 understand yet. No, 因为 even the major branches 和 通路 are just now finally beginning to be understood. 我们're on virgin beaches.

Diego Bohórquez:

Yes. Right now 那 I hear 你 bringing up the humming, 对于 instance, there is a branch of the Vegas 那 innervates the ear, the inner ear, 和 那's why it is belief. 和 I think 那 there is a little bit of 证据 out there 那 how it is certain music 那 a certain frequency 会 calm 你 down 因为 it is immediately it starts to make the vagus vibrate at a certain frequency.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

和 humming has been linked to vasodilation, which is associated 与 a calming effect, whereas activation of the sympathetic arm of the autonomic 神经系统 或 the kind of what sometimes is referred to as fight 或 flight, 但 it's involved in other things causes vasoconstriction.

Diego Bohórquez:

和 if 你 think 关于 it in several religious practices, there is the humming, right? There is the singing, there is the sound. The sound plays a big role in running. There is a certain frequency 那 makes 你, counts 你 更多 和 makes 你 run better.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is 那 right?

Diego Bohórquez:

Yeah. There is some 证据, at least among runners 那 they prefer a certain type of frequency 对于 the running.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So a certain pace of running 或 breathing

Diego Bohórquez:

和 the sound specifically the sound.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The sound of their feet.

Diego Bohórquez:

Yeah, no, the sound of the music. If 你 play a certain music 和 probably the sound of their feet too, right? It has not been explored. Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's fascinating. So much of what I think 关于 when I think 关于 the 神经系统 is the fine grain processing of color of light, 但 when it comes to 我们的 feelings of wellbeing, 我们的 水平 of arousal, sleep, et cetera, it's the rather, I don't want to call them crude 因为 they're 确实 sophisticated, they evolve to be sophisticated, 但 这些 kind of macroscopic signals like light coming in the 早晨 has 这些 long wavelength 和 short wavelength contrast. 那's what tells 我们的 大脑 it's 早晨.

Diego Bohórquez:

那's

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right. It's the orange, red, blue contrast. Even if there's cloud cover, it's the difference between 那些 二 不同的 qualities of light 那 says it's 早晨 和 when the sun is overhead, 你 don't see 那 yellow, blue 或 orange, blue, red, blue contrast, 但 你 see it again at sunset 和 it informs. So it sounds like the combination of 具体的 chemicals in the gut tell us 这 is good, pursue 更多 of 这 和 maybe even the place where 你 found it is a good place as opposed. 和 the opposite is probably also true.

Diego Bohórquez:

Yes. 那's an entire new domain of the sensory 系统 in the digestive tract 那 我们 haven't even begin to articulate yet. Memory. How do 我们 remember what was 那 首先 meal like in the Ate movie 从 when 我们 were children, right? It was 非常 不同的. I still remember some of the 非常 simple humble meals 那 my mother 会 make, 但 it's just priceless 对于 me whenever I go home 没有 asking, sometimes my mother 会 prepare 那些 对于 me 和 it's like it just brings 你 back when 你 were 那 age, right?

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah. The memory 系统 is tightly linked to taste 和 smell. There's no question 关于

Diego Bohórquez:

It. 和 then how it is 那 the gut triggers 那些 sensations 或 farther reinforces 那些 sensations 我们 haven't even begin to articulate. 和 when I say articulate, 因为 我们 don't even have the language to refer to 这些 things, 那's why at the 非常 beginning 我们 were talking in 我们的 conversation 关于 the axis 和 那 我们 don't say the nose 大脑 axis, 我们 just went 对于 what 我们 had at 那 time. 和 I do think 那 the language 我们 continue to evolve 对于 us to be able to articulate 更多 precisely, 更多 richly, 更多 elegant, 更多 in so many 不同的 ways, how it is 那 the communicate 与 each other to make us who 我们 are. 和 in there in 一 of 我们的 papers, 我们 quoted 这些 beautiful passages 从 the book memoirs of 我们的 stomach. It was greeting in 1853

安德鲁·休伯曼：

By a French

Diego Bohórquez:

By person, by what it says in the 首先 page by the Minister of Interior 因为 all of 那些 who eat may read 或 something like 那. 和 then on page 21, it goes to describe the dialogue between the gut 和 the 大脑 和 it says like 那, how it is 那 the gut communicates to the 大脑 与 a rapidity 通过 这些 二 sets of electrical wires 那 communicate the arrivals of the 天 as 我们 may eat 与 the precision 和 rapidity to the 大脑 so the 大脑 会 make its own feelings 和 impressions. 和 then he said 那 when it's talking 从 the perspective of the stomach, he says, when I grew 更多 rose, meaning I'm not working in digestion, then the 大脑 also grew irritable 和 petulant angry.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's so interesting to look at human experience 从 the directionality of gut to 大脑 rather than 大脑 to gut.

Diego Bohórquez:

那's

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right. 和 as I do 从 time to time, pay 注意力 to what's happening in the landscape of wellness 和 心理健康 和 身体健康. A lot of what 你 see out there in terms of highly educated 人们 who have thought 非常 deeply 关于 how to navigate decision making in lots of 不同的 domains of life 和 to do it in a way 那 确实 honors 我们的 own individual preferences 和 needs. 人们 like Martha Beck, I don't know if 你've heard of her, 但 she exists, she has triple degreed 从 Harvard, 但 has talked a lot 关于 learning to sense 一's way 进入 和 通过 decisions, 通过 intuition 那 is 更多 of the 身体 和 is 更多 of particular 大脑 回路 than 我们的 analytic like pros 和 cons lists 因为 pros 和 cons lists 和 obviously 重要 metrics like objective metrics like oh, is 这 the right salary, the right location, the right, all the things 那 matter 对于 decision making.

和 我们're trained in 那 in school in the United States 和 in many areas of the world as well of course. 和 那's critical, 但 那 there's 这 other 训练, there's 这 other learning of self 那 可以 be extremely useful 和 it almost 总是 comes back to 身体 首先, then to cognition 和 decision making. 和 I feel like modern humans are trying to learn to run the analysis of life decision making 通过 这, I guess 更多 ancient axis. So again, the intelligence of 这些 what used to be called 更多 primitive 系统, 但 I don't think they're primitive at all. In talking 与 你 today, it's clear to me 那 这些 are highly sophisticated 系统 just as sophisticated as any forebrain 通路 involved in analyzing, say probability 或 something.

Diego Bohórquez:

和 那's why I like to highlight the example of having a nice meal 和 having a nice conversation at the same time. If 你 go to a nice restaurant 和 你 have a nice meal while 你're having a nice conversation 和 你 pay 注意力 to it, then it brings humility to 你的 身体 to know how much 你的 身体's doing 对于 你 to be able to just express 那 tiny little bit 和 having some sort of highly intellectual, sophisticated conversation while 你're able to put in the precise amount of lettuce inside of 你的 mouth 和 chew it in the right way 和 adjust it 与 a little bit of 水 和 maybe a little bit of wine 和 understand what is cleansing 你的 palate 和 putting down the napkin 和 so on 和 so forth 没有 going to the restroom. Every time 那 你 feel like going to it, there is an entire sophistication of the 身体 just to have something like a simple as a catch up conversation.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do 你 think 那 我们的 ability to sense 进入 gut sensing 更多, to 确实 hear 和 respond to the signals 从 the gut is something 那 我们 可以 learn even as adults simply by paying 更多 注意力?

Diego Bohórquez:

Yes, 和 I think 那 here's the concept of usually when 我们 talk 关于 topics like meditation is 那 self-care 和 那 self-care is listening to 你的 own 身体. How it is 那 the 身体 is feeling like, I don't know, I grew up in a, my mother 会 tell me 或 family 会 tell 你 if 你 feel like going to the restroom 和 to pee 对于 a bio break, don't hold it 对于 too long 因为 it 可能 be bad. 和 I think 那 just learning 那 part of listening to the 身体 is an essential aspect. It's just 那 我们're not constantly doing it over learning 关于 how 我们 are moving 我们的 career forward.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So much of what 我们're taught in order to be high achieving 和 forward moving in life in modern culture is 关于 learning to override the signals 从 the 身体. 但 it seems 那 learning to listen to the signals 从 the 身体 is key to being a healthy human being.

Diego Bohórquez:

Yes. 和 here I have an example, years ago I used to run quite a bit 和 I remember 那 之后 had ran a marathon, I took a break 对于 a few 周 和 then I got back on the trail 和 I began running 和 I was like, I don't need to warm up 对于 三 或 four 周 up to get back 进入 speed. 和 I remember 那 I started to feel like 那 my right, the sole of my right foot was a little bit bothering me, 但 almost imperceptible. 和 I was like, no, 你 just have to keep going. My wife Elaine told me, 你 应该 pay 注意力, take a break. 和 I just kept running. 和 I remember specifically 那 一 time I went to run 和 say, I 可以 put in eight miles. I think 那 I was running at like seven 分钟, seven 15 a mile 或 something like 那, 和 I began running.

Then 之后 a mile I was feeling pumped, 二 miles, 三 miles. I was like, 和 then I usually 会 go 和 do four miles 和 then turn 大约 和 come back. I got a mile four 和 I fell crack 和 I could not walk anymore. There was a hair fracture 那 is almost imperceptible in an X-ray, 但 boy, 你 cannot move 你的 foot anymore. I had to limp 对于 four miles all the way back to the car 因为 I didn't even have my phone 和 I 从不 forgot 那 对于 next time, 你 got to pay 注意力 to 你的 身体. 你的 身体 is simply telling 你 something is a little bit off, just don't keep pushing it. 和 I specifically remember 因为 I kept running 和 I had to literally limp all the way back to the car.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, Diego, I must say 那 among the many things 那 你've shared 与 us today 和 taught us 关于 the gut 和 its ability to influence the 大脑 和 the incredible things 那 are happening at the 水平 of biology 和 physiology of the gut chief among them is the message 那 我们 应该 all pay 更多 注意力 to 我们的 sensing at the 水平 of 我们的 gut. 和 nowadays 我们 hear so much 关于 the gut microbiome such 那 fortunately I think most 人们 are starting to appreciate 那 the gut microbiome is vital 对于 all aspects of health 和 那 there are things 那 我们 可以 do to feed 那 microbiome fiber intake, fermented food intake 和 so forth. 但 clearly, based on what 你've told us today 那 even just paying a little bit 更多 注意力 to what 我们的 gut is telling us at the 水平 of feeling good, feeling 更少 good 因为 the signs 和 signals are subtle, I realize 可以 确实 help us make better decisions 和 help us decide not just what foods to eat 或 not eat, how much to eat 或 not eat, 但 also how to navigate higher order decisions, if 你 会, 关于 who to spend time 与, what to do, what not to do, moving along the decision tree of life.

和 along 那些 lines, I want to thank 你 对于 making the decision to come here today. I certainly am happy 那 我们 decided to do it. It's something 那's been a long time coming. I 确实 see 你 as 一 of the true pioneers in 这 area of trying to dissect the understanding of the gut 大脑 axis, heal the 大脑 通过 the gut, understand 和 modulate 我们的 emotions at the 水平 of gut sensing. 和 while there are other researchers in 这 area, I refer to 你 as a pioneer 因为 你've 确实 undergone 这 incredible trajectory 从 the Amazon 通过 nutrition science 进入 neuroscience. 和 now 我们're getting a little bit 进入 psychological science 和 I'm excited 对于 what comes next. I only ask 一 thing, which is 那 as 你 make 这些 discoveries, 那 你 come back 和 talk to us 关于 them so 那 我们 可以 learn 更多 关于 你的 incredible work.

Diego Bohórquez:

So Andrew, I want to say a few things. The 首先 thing is 那 I feel deeply honored by 你的 invitation, 和 thank 你 so much 对于 the opportunity. I am just simply a representative of the 人们 那 work 与 me 和 work 与 us. I'm just an ambassador 和 they get the majority of the credit 对于 their dedication to help us understand a little bit 更多 of the 身体 和 how it is help us to navigate the world 那 我们 live in. So I want to thank 你 对于 the opportunity. I want to thank the 人们 那 have made 这 可能. Also the 人们 那 along the way 或 the institutions 那 along the way have a help fund 这 endeavor. My home institution at Duke. I'm deeply grateful 因为 my career has developed there 和 some of my mentors, Roger Little Andrew Muir 和 the 人们 那 have helped me along the way.

和 then finally, I want to thank 你 和 你的 team 和 congratulate 你 对于 the work 那 你 do 和 那 你 have created 这 window 对于 us to come 和 share 与 the public a little bit of the work 那 我们 do. Perhaps some of 那 is obviously is based on 证据. Some portion of 那 is thinking 关于 the future, 但 I do think 那 通过 maintaining the dialogue 与 the public, 那 我们 可以 continue to understand the world 那 我们 live in. 和 对于 那, I have to thank 你 对于 having creating 这 platform.

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, it's a labor of love 和 I'm honored to be able to do it 和 in no small part 因为 I get to sit down 和 have beautiful, intimate conversations 关于 biology 和 life 与 你. So thank 你 so much. Thank 你. Thank 你 对于 joining me 对于 today's discussion 关于 sensing 与 the gut 和 the gut-大脑 axis 与 Dr. Diego Borque. To learn 更多 关于 Dr. Borque as a 研究 和 also to see a link to his fabulous podcast called The Astronauts, please see the show note captions. If 你're learning 从 和 或 enjoying 这 podcast, please subscribe to 我们的 YouTube channel. 那's a terrific zero cost way to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast on both Spotify 和 Apple 和 on both Spotify 和 Apple. 你 可以 leave us up to a five star review. Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning 和 throughout today's episode.

那's the best way to support 这 podcast. If 你 have questions 对于 me 或 comments 关于 the podcast 或 guests 或 topic suggestions 那 你'd like me to consider 对于 the Huberman Lab 播客, please put 那些 in the comment section on YouTube. I do read all the comments if 你're not already following me on social media. I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms, so 那's Instagram X, formerly known as Twitter, LinkedIn Threads 和 Facebook, 和 on all of 那些 platforms, I cover science 和 science-based tools, some of which overlaps 与 the content of the Huberman Lab 播客, 但 much of which is distinct 从 the content of the Huberman Lab 播客. Again, 那's Huberman Lab on all social media channels. If 你're not already following 我们的 newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is the Huberman Lab zero cost monthly newsletter. 那 includes podcast summaries as well as 方案 in the form of 一 to 三 page PDFs.

The 方案 cover topics such as how to 改善 和 even optimize 你的 sleep, how to regulate 多巴胺, 主动冷暴露, deliberate 热 exposure. 我们 have a foundational fitness 方案 那 includes everything including schedules 和 sets 和 reps 和 cardiovascular 训练. 我们 also have a neuroplasticity 和 learning super 方案. Again, all of which is available, zero cost. 你 go to Huberman Lab.com, go to the menu tab, scroll down to newsletter, 和 enter 你的 email. 和 I 应该 mention 那 我们 do not share 你的 email 与 anybody. Thank 你 once again 对于 joining me 对于 today's discussion 与 Dr. Diego Boez. 和 last 但 certainly not least, thank 你 对于 你的 interest in science.