The Hidden Psychology Of Highly Sensitive People - Dr Sasha Hamdani
嘉宾：Dr Sasha Hamdani
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Hello friends, I'm bringing a brand new live show across the UK and Ireland this October. It's stories, psychology, audience Q&A's, and whatever happens when thousands of overthinkers voluntarily leave the house and end up in the same room together. I'd love to see you there. The last tour completely sold out, so make sure that you snag tickets now using the link in the description or heading to chriswilliamson.live. Dublin's already
sold out, loads of venues are limited. Tickets are very limited, so get yours now. chriswilliamson.live Why did you get interested in researching emotionally sensitive >> Cuz I am an emotionally sensitive person. And I think also just from my body of work, seeing patients you just start to see patterns of people or falling into the pattern of being emotionally sensitive. >> And what does that look like? What's the
experience of life like for someone who's an emotionally sensitive person? >> You know, I think it's different for each person, but I think one of the bigger overarching things is that these are the people who feel things quickly, deeply, and for a long time. >> Okay, what would be the sort of way that they spend their days? Like they're going about their day, what would be some of the habits, some of the mental
experiences that they go through? So, I think a lot of times people with emotional sensitivity, because they're taking in so much emotional data, they are over analyzing every interaction and reading it for am I doing something weird? Is this other person doing something weird? Are you mad at me? And they're just interpreting and re-evaluating every single interaction, which takes up a lot of brain power throughout the day.
>> The other thing that they do is you see a tremendous amount of time spent where you're already predicting that that could be an issue. So, they are changing their behavior, they're masking behavior, they're overcompensating for certain things. So, there's there's work that's being done within interactions on a day-to-day basis, and there's stuff that they're also anticipating these possible interactions.
>> Oh, that's interesting. So, even silence and in preparation, people are interpreting that with a particular lens as well. >> All right, that's interesting. What about criticism? What's the relationship like with criticism? >> I don't think anybody in the universe likes criticism, but I think when you look at rejection sensitive dysphoria, which is a neurological phenomenon we're talking about, it is this robust emotional, sometimes
physical, response to rejection or criticism. So, it's not just like, "Okay, that happened and that really hurt my feelings and that sucks." It's "I feel like the air has been pushed out of my lungs. I don't know if I can recover from this." And it becomes this thing that, instead of being like, "Okay, well, I'm chewing on this and it's annoying." it becomes this thing that consumes them and can be as significant as to look
like a major depressive episode. >> Mhm. It feels like a fear of disappointing other people is kind of quite central to this. >> Yeah, it can be. >> Right. Why? >> I think it it stems from this fear of rejection or criticism. So, if you're going to disappoint someone, you you don't want that uh the other person to be upset with you, you don't want them to reject you, you don't want them to think badly of you, you don't want
them to criticize you. And so, you're dealing with this very complicated phenomenon that's coming at you, all of these emotions happening at once, and you're trying to process them in real >> Is rejection sensitive dysphoria the same thing as being a highly sensitive person? Is that something like sufficient but necessary but not sufficient in here? >> Well, okay, so here's my deal. So, highly sensitive person, I mean, I think
that was a it's not a clinical term, but that that came about um years and years Um and it's talking about highly sensitive to everything. So, not just emotions, but sounds, lights, everything you're sensitive to. >> When I talk about rejection sensitive dysphoria, I'm putting that on a spectrum of emotional sensitivity. So, in terms of there are some people that, you know, emotions and emotional data
doesn't impact them that tremendously on a day-to-day basis and they kind of roll along their day and and maybe it could be a little bit off median where they're like, "Mhm, you probably could benefit from being a little bit more emotional." Um there's people who, you know, this it they have healthy ups and downs and then there are other people who emotional data can just sink them with things which might be completely out of
proportion to what the stimulus is >> Right. Okay, so when you've got highly sensitive people, they might be highly sensitive to emotions, but also like busyness, chaos, etc. RSD rejection sensitive dysphoria >> is specifically an emotional uh angle that we're looking at here. Why the word rejection sensitive? Why not emotionally sensitive dysphoria? >> That's a good question. I think I you know, this this term was coined by
Dr. William Dodson, who is brilliant and brought this up and I think when he was looking at that kind of longitudinal data with patients a lot of them were responding to that rejection and that criticism that would trigger this kind of profound emotional So, I think those are two really big cases that it could happen. But you know, I I think we need to start expanding and talking about emotional sensitivity just in general
>> because then you can start talking about emotional dysregulation and that really I think becomes one of the things that we have been missing talking about with ADHD and anxiety and things like that for years and years and years. >> Okay, why does social rejection hurt so >> How much time do you have? >> It's one of those things that, you know, you look at There are many different reasons that this is so painful.
there is inherently a dopamine imbalance. So, what's happening is that your brain already is, you know, struggling to emotionally regulate. So, something happens and instead of being like, "Okay, we can work with this." It's just that your shot down and you're right now then you get suspended in this low mood, highly anxious mood where you're spinning and chewing on this for hours and hours. Another reason this happens is that
people who are highly emotionally sensitive, a lot of times there are two areas of the brain that are really impacted by this. The first one is the amygdala, which is your threat receptor. So, that in this in these cases is very highly attuned to picking up emotional data. So, your brain is picking up this seemingly negative data and then the frontal lobe, which is in charge of judgment and processing and
decision-making, which should be able to be like, "This isn't that big of a That isn't as active. So, now you have this highly active threat receptor and poorly responsive frontal lobe and you're just your that emotional train is running away. >> Right. So, Okay, explain to me the underlying neuroscience of why emotional sensitivity exists. Like, what is happening inside of the brain of somebody that is an emotionally
sensitive person? >> So, I think it depends on a lot of things. The first one is what I talked about, like that highly responsive amygdala and that poorly responsive frontal lobe. You have you know, you feel things before you actually think about them logically. The second thing is dopamine dysregulation. Dopamine is that thing that helps you it it's very multifaceted. It helps with many different things, but when you feel
things, you're less able to regulate because of that. >> What's happening with the dopamine? Are these people with high dopamine baseline, with low dopamine baseline, with low catecholamine clearance? Like what's going on? I want to say low, but it's not it's not as simple as that. It's that there's not enough dopamine at the right place at the right time. So, it's >> And what would that do if they had that
dopamine? It would help them to be able to weather the ups and downs? >> Regulate better. >> Right, okay. So, you know the COMT variant? Okay, so I'm COMT double A, right? So, I've got two copies of it. Um, and a bunch of others like that come along polymorphisms that come along with that similarly. That means that for me, if stuff's chaotic, it's really hard for me to focus, but if things are a little
bit more predictable and less ambiguous, it's hard to get me to stop. So, for me, environment design's really important. >> Um, but it also with ChatGPT where I sent my genetic data to it and had a conversation with it. I said, "Hey, imagine you know nothing about me. Tell me what sort of a person you think I would be just based on my genetic data." And it came back with all of these really interesting insights. And one of
the things that it said was, "You would make a great detective and a a horrible SWAT >> Someone who is in a relatively controlled environment focused on one quite complex task, great. Someone who's got these big peaks and troughs of intensity and then has to come back down and then has to do it again, that is worse for me because my ability to sort of clear off a lot of the adrenaline and the catecholamine. So, that is what I
was thinking about when it comes to the dopamine side of things. That some people are able to be airplanes as Stan Tatkin calls them. They can sort of go up and down quite quickly, but they have less depth. And some people are submarines, which is that they have way more depth, but it takes them time to come back up. So, that was what was interesting about the dopamine thing. But keep going. So, you've got
>> the dopamine side. >> The dopamine side, you have the norepinephrine side, which is like the fueling that very physical response. So, it's not a lot of times with this rejection sensitivity, it's not just I feel bad that something bad happened. I can't breathe. I feel like my ribs hurt. I'm feeling chest pain. I'm feel like a lot of times people think that they're having an anxiety attack or they
think they're having a heart attack, and it's truly just that rejection sensitivity. And it's because of that surge of norepinephrine that's spilling those alarm chemicals telling your body that something bad is happening. So, your brain at this point, it's not just that your brain is you're psyching yourself up into like, you know, someone didn't text me back and you know, they must be, you know, [clears throat] it's they're mad at me
or something like that. Your body is telling you that there is a problem. You are panicked. Your heart rate is up. You are sweating. You're tremulous. So, you think there's something wrong because your body's responding that way. So, we've talked about >> dopamine, norepinephrine >> You said the amygdala.
>> But I imagine that presumably for people, the reason that we have a PFC is in an attempt to be able to control the amygdala. So, it has to be the relationship between the two. >> It's a linkage between the two. There's there Not only are we dealing with a hyperactive amygdala, an underactive prefrontal cortex, but the linkage between them is also frayed. >> Okay. So, in this sort of a situation I
get that this would I'm thinking about the SWAT operator. You know what else comes to mind? Dana White when he was in the room at the Correspondents Dinner where that guy tried to to shoot the president, and everybody else is sort of ducked down. I don't know if you've seen this video. Can you try and get the video up of Dana Just say Dana White Correspondents Dinner Reaction. And it's him as an active shooter comes in, and
you hear the gunshots go off, right? Cuz the guy that was the shooter shot a couple of Secret Service people, and then he gets taken down. Like, what's even happening with that guy? Like, do we even know? So, I now I'm interested in whether or not it's another You know what's crazy? There's multiple presidential assassins like just in the legal system at the moment. Has there ever been multiple presidential assassins in the legal
system at the same time? Cuz the guy in Utah is currently being like he's got he's he's in trial at the moment. And then the dude that the other one he's also been taken It's like a getting the queue. Yeah, this one. This this this. >> Inside, they started up. All of them just started getting noisy. Tables getting flipped over, guys running in with guns, and they were screaming get down. I didn't get down. It was [ __ ]
awesome. I literally took every minute of it in and >> the video. So, I see if you can find the actual video, dude. It's again, that's what's happened. The assassin's gone in. Dana White's actual reaction when he sat down in the room is >> Everybody else is under the table and he just can't all he wants is My point that amygdala prefrontal cortex thing. >> Obviously, the triggering of his fear center hasn't kicked in and he's able to
isn't this like full access to his ability to think? Isn't this interesting? I think this is a memory that would be worth me encoding for a while. I'm having a good time. You know what I mean? I would I would >> Maybe an underactive amygdala for that >> That's what I would say, too. Yeah, this is it. Look at this. Look at his face.
kid in a candy store. Like just having the best time.
Actively smiling. Like forget the active shooter, active smiler. >> Yeah, that's Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know what I mean? Like isn't that an interesting response from somebody >> I get what you mean. I think that there is like again, when you look at like just neurophysiology, and the brain is so fascinating for so many different reasons. But like when you actually understand what areas of the brain do
what and the connections between them, you can see it in human behaviors and patterns. It's wild. >> What about the limbic system? >> Yeah. Limbic system. So, limbic system is important because that's really talking about like that emotional circuitry in general. And so, when you are dealing with big emotional data that may or may not be justified, right? It may might just be that you perceived this rejection or criticism or emotional
data coming in, your limbic system just goes wild. Areas are lighting up. You're communicating as if like this big emotional response is happening, and you're trying to navigate that in real >> Mhm. Is it right to say that some people feel emotions more than others? >> a fair assessment? >> Okay, what do we mean when we say that? >> Well, I mean, if you think about like emotions in general, like when you're
talking about feeling emotions, you're talking about perceiving them. That's the first step that happens. You're talking about then experiencing them in the moment, and then you're talking about how long you spend on that emotion afterwards, right? So, there are people that you know, you can walk into a room, you already know something weird is happening. You can feel like an emotional and I I give the
example of like someone walking into a room with like a complicated social interactions all over the place, and they can just you know, they say to me like something feels off or there's there's something in the air. They say something like that, and they're referring to like picking up so because what they're doing is they're scanning the room, not only are they listening to words that are coming out at them during
immediate conversation, but they're looking at body position. They're looking at tone. They're looking at volume of voice. They're picking up all these different cues, amalgamating them, and and sometimes for the negative. >> Yeah, so that it's interesting the sort of noticing intensity and duration, right? Of what we're talking about when it comes to emotional intensity. First off, you have to realize it's happening,
then it has to be how big does the feeling feel inside of you? That is, how many different cascades occur inside of your brain and body to make you feel it, and then how long is the falloff after that happens? Yes.
what's interesting, I suppose, some people walk into a room, they're hypervigilant, they're paying attention, they realize that oh, this person's turned away a little bit, or they're blinking a bit more, or they or they don't even know what's happening, but there is just a sense that person doesn't feel too good. I suppose a lot of the time, kind of like a smoke detector principle, those people are
going to perceive problems where there are none, and that's when it becomes very maladaptive, right? It's already kind of maladaptive to just perceive stuff as it is with a level of resolution that's more than everyone else, because the world that most people are in inside of the bell curve, and then the world that you're in, maybe out toward the tail end, and the world that Dana White's in, out on the other tail
end, um a kind of different different existences, right? And Dana will miss out on some stuff that I'm sure that he could it would be great for him to pay a bit more attention to, but then the person who has realized that the auntie over the far side is actually in a mood with the sister or whatever, um but they're not, they've got a different type of error. Dana's ignored something and they've pattern matched something
that wasn't actually there. So, there's I suppose some strengths and weaknesses. All right, I guess >> when you're thinking about like RSD, what other traits does it tend to be bundled in with? Are there other things that come tend to come along for the ride? with Actually, I'm going to go back cuz we forgot a huge thing that uh that happens in the brain as well, and that's hormones. Okay. could talk about that
later if you want to. >> Tell me about hormones now. >> Okay. [gasps] So, I I wanted to talk about hormones because I think when you look at the brain in general, I mean, there is not much else you can look at that would be equivalent to like this huge it that has the capacity to kind of change your entire system just globally from top to bottom. And the hormones are something so interesting to look at
especially for females because like for women, you're changing every month. You're changing when you're pregnant. You're changing when you're perimenopausal. You're changing when you have a kid. It's just like you can have eight different versions of yourself. And with men, I mean, you deal with the hormonal stuff with like as their testosterone drops or and other things that are happening in real time.
So, hormones directly impact like for example with estrogen. as your estrogen drops, your dopamine drops as well. And so then you're less able to regulate your emotions and things like that. And that's a huge huge thing to bring up. It's an important factor in emotional sensitivity and rejection sensitivity because if for 2 weeks out of the month, your estrogen level is intrinsically lower, your dopamine level is lower, and it's
harder for you to regulate, it you're going to be more rejection sensitive, emotionally sensitive during those >> Mhm. What relationship does testosterone have to emotional sensitivity? >> Yeah, so testosterone is actually it it can be protective in that front um to a degree in it helps you feel alert and awake and might help you emotionally regulate and balance a little bit The problem is is that sometimes as that
testosterone drops as happens, you know, 50s, 60s with males, sometimes you can because of that drop in testosterone, you can feel this huge rise in emotional sensitivity and a lot of men aren't equipped to deal with >> Interesting. A quick aside, you probably heard me talk about Element before and that's because I've started every single morning the same way for the last 5 years now, which is a cold glass of
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sample pack of Element's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below and heading to That's drinklmnt.com/ modernwisdom. Going back to why social rejection hurts so much. >> Right? From an adaptive standpoint, I'm being kicked out of the tribe. There's only 30 people in my pod out of 150 Dunbar tribe that I'm a part of. If I'm on my own, I'm dead. >> Why would evolution create a brain that
can be so devastated by criticism? >> I don't know. >> I think So, here's the deal. I don't think Like, if you were to ask me, it would like, you me myself, I know that I'm emotionally sensitive. I wouldn't trade that for the world. Yeah, it's really difficult at times to be highly emotionally sensitive, but I think it makes me a better person. I think it makes me a better physician. I think it makes me a better parent. I
think it makes me a better partner. I think being able to be highly attuned to data and incoming information it could be one of the greatest signs of emotional intelligence you have. So, I think that that's I I wouldn't trade that emotional sensitivity. So, yeah, I mean, did evolution make a brain that can be devastated by rejection? I mean, yes, but there's also some positives that come with that.
>> Okay, you talked about hormones there. >> Does RSD look different in men?
you want a weird answer for that?
>> I This is my soapbox for this. I think that looking at just, you know, being a psychiatrist and seeing mental health just in general and seeing the progression of mental health, especially as we've talked about it a little bit more, you start to notice patterns. And as you look at male mental health, I think that we have done a huge disservice to men in terms of we don't educate men and help cultivate with men
a lot of information about emotional sensitivity. And as a result, for a lot of men, they know how to target a couple emotions, and one of them being anger. >> So, I think for a lot of men, you see men that have, you know, they've been you know, just man up, this is not that big of a deal, don't cry about it, don't they have been forced to suppress emotions, but the only socially acceptable emotion they're allowed to
express it is anger. I would say that some of that is probably misdirected or confusing signals of maybe emotional >> Mhm. What happens when emotionally sensitive boys are told to man up? >> I mean, that, you get really angry And I mean, it it's just such a like I think as a parent who um has a son, um it's weird because you and maybe it's this is like the mom-son thing >> that I'm so protective over him. Um but,
you know, you see in other settings and you you start to really zoom in and you look at how other people are are bringing up their their 6-year-olds, their 6-year-old boys. Even from a young age in the kindergarten class, you know, the way that the girls are treated in the class versus the boys are treated in the class. And not by the teacher, but like the parents. You look at it in birthday parties. You know, a a girl
will fall down, they're scooped up, they're they're coddled, they're told, you know, everything's okay. A boy will fall down and it's like, "Oh, that's not that big of a deal." You know, let's let's move on from this. And it it's it just it doesn't seem like it's like from Genesis. There's not like a huge spot where they can start to explore and really navigate emotional sensitivity >> Yeah, I think
emotionally sensitive women seem to have a bit more latitude and forgiveness to explore that kind of sensitivity than men do. Especially as they get into adulthood. Like I I you know, I think you're right. it's weird. Anger is such an antisocial >> Right? It's dangerous, it can be destructive, it's often not wanted by the people that are experiencing it and they don't want the impact of it to happen. But anger's
for many men more socially acceptable than sadness. And when you think about how antisocial anger is as an emotion, it really goes to show sort of how unacceptable sadness can be. But yeah, you know, we talk a lot online about the importance of getting men to open up. I had a conversation two conversations this week talking about male suicide. And in both of them, there is this I just wish that this guy had reached out.
I wish that he talked. But in over 90% of cases where a man takes his own life in the UK, he's already gone to some form of mental health counseling. So, it's not just the talking about it thing, it's actually allowing like giving room for men to be able to feel their feelings. And I think that to be honest, like a lot of the blame a lot of the work, not blame, a lot of the work here can be laid at
other men's feet because everyone says they want their friend to open up if you're having a bad time that I really need you to to talk to me and this is easy to say after the fact especially if something really dangerous or devastating's happened. But how many guys are supportive of another man on the internet that's opening up about how much he's struggling? Like not not to the Overton emotional Overton window of
acceptability which is, you know, things are hard but I'm getting back in the gym and I'm going to put some muscle on or whatever. Like really broken down and I don't know what to do. I'm alone, I'm broken, I'm I'm lost, I'm devastated. A guy that's crying is aversive to a lot of men. >> And women too, but I'm like you don't get to say male suicide's a big problem, we need to do more of more for this,
society needs to care more and then take the piss out of a guy who is opening up about his emotions online. >> I had this idea of man points which is guys need to accumulate sufficient kind of surplus masculinity in areas like muscularity or strength or success or money or notoriety or women or whatever and if they've got this bank account reserve of masculinity they can kind of withdraw from that and then talk about
emotions. It's like this special video game unlock that only happens once you've reached a particular level of being a man.
people have a big ick. Most of society has a big ick with men talking about deep emotions especially difficult emotions but they have far fewer if it comes from a place of prestige >> than one of poverty. A guy who's already down on his luck and might not have much going for him talking about how much things are hurting doesn't get the same kind of sympathy that Chris Bumstead six-time Olympia world champion one of
the most muscular guys on the planet that he gets. he can cry and talk about how he broke down in his girlfriend's arms 6 weeks before he was about to win the world championship because he's got all of these trappings and trimmings of masculinity that make it seem like it's not coming from a place of weakness, it's coming from a place of strength. But again, Chris doesn't need the same kind of support because he's already got a
community around him of a supportive wife and all of these successes that are continuing to move him down the track. The people that really need it are the guys that kind of don't have anything going for them and they're presumably going to be the biggest risk as well. But yeah, that's my that's my soapbox as well to just I really wish that there was more latitude. Like speaking as a guy that feels feelings, I just I did a a full
week retreat working exclusively on emotions 12 hours a day for 7 days in Northern California last year. 2 weeks ago I just did a Jana meditation retreat which is exclusively working on conductivity of emotions, a silent meditation retreat for 7 days. Like sitting on the cushion for I don't know 6 or 8 hours a day. So that was like both of those things for me are me trying to get below the neck, me trying
move away from a lot of the judge not not even judgment like felt scrutiny and existing patterns of how is this going to show up in the world? Can I operate this way inside of my business? Is this something that I can do that's publicly acceptable? It's like it doesn't you can go and work on this thing in isolation and then come back. But yeah, I I I know what it's like to be a really sensitive kid growing up that didn't
have anywhere to put it because you're in a working class blue collar environment or the people around you don't notice or don't have the tools to be able to help and it can drive you to do really amazing things, but it also creates a bunch of coping mechanisms that mean, "Huh, I I this weird gift. Like I had this depth of connection that I could have had with the world, and I contorted it, alchemized it, you could
say, cuz it went from something that was a challenge to something that you've turned into something good. >> But it is kind of a denial of a bit of yourself, as well, at the same time. So, that's been This has been a It's one of the reasons I was excited to speak to you because it it it's a a very personal, like, super interesting topic. I I think it's fascinating. What >> A lot of emotionally sensitive people
also they go through life and they hide that part of them because there is so much internalized shame about like you're not supposed to be sensitive. You're supposed to be strong. You're supposed to be able to handle stuff. You're I mean male and females. Like I mean this is something that as a human condition people are are celebrated for like you were able to get on the other side of that adversity.
Like you did so well. You didn't complain. You didn't do And so like you from a young age you just kind of learn to shut down that part of yourself or become really embarrassed. I remember being like a kid and you know my mom something would happen and it would like hit my ear the wrong way. And I >> I would think that oh my god she like I'm so embarrassed or something like that. And I would like go and hide. I
would like hide under a table or I'll hide in a closet or I would because I was just like embarrassed and sad and everything happening all at once. And eventually I was like this is young, like eight. I was like this is not conducive for me moving forward in >> functioning well. >> Yeah, this is I can't do that when I'm grown up. And so then you just start hiding it. So, if you're emotional or if you're having a hard day, you lie
about it. You're like I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. It's not a big deal. I don't want to talk about it. Or and sometimes I'd be like I don't want to talk about it with other people because I'll cry and that'll prove that I'm emotionally sensitive. And so I I hear that story a lot as well. >> The insight that suppression isn't the same thing as strength I don't know, kind of kind of world changing that
what you're doing if you're an emotionally sensitive person that's swallowing them down >> is you're performing the role of somebody who's got composure. >> But that's not the same as having composure. That's not the same you're performing the role of somebody that hasn't felt the thing. That's not the same as >> not feeling the thing. >> And you've got this line, "The real challenge lies in not feeling deeply,
but in living in a world that doesn't always know how to support that >> That's a good quote. >> It's [laughter] a great It's It's a great line. It really is. The real challenge lies not in feeling deeply, but in living in a world that doesn't always know how to support that >> Yeah. Yeah, the world feels very spiky. Every time I come back from a retreat, I always feel like everything is so >> I know.
>> Then what you get to see is how operating in a world that's incredibly intense, very chaotic, fast-moving, you have to create these strange patterns and coping mechanisms and wall yourself off and guard yourself just so that you can move through the day. And that's fine, right? You don't want to be a whimpering blob on the floor. You don't want to be a puddle. I don't want to be a puddle of emotions. I want to be able to show up,
but then also there are bits of your experience that you're denying yourself. >> And there are strengths that you can have that come along for this. Hey, that's a question. What are the strengths of highly sensitive people? What are the strengths of people with rejection sensitive dysphoria? I think being able again, I think that that there is a direct pipeline between being highly emotionally sensitive and being highly
emotionally intelligent. And I think that's just how you deal with that sensitivity. And so some of the strengths that can come with that emotional sensitivity are number one, you have a deep, deep, deep understanding of other people's emotional insides. And I think that's part of, you know, what led me into psychiatry in the first place. That's part of why I've continued to enjoy it as much as I have, because I think that
you can intimately understand when people are talking about their experience or like you can even understand, you know, sometimes I'll have a patient come into my office and you start asking them questions and you know, their answer is like, "I don't know." Like "Okay, so can you tell me anything in the past 2 months that has really made you upset?" "I don't know." Like and so then it's for a lot of people that's like a
stonewall. You don't really know where to go from there. But for some people who are highly emotionally sensitive, you're picking up like, "Okay, I'm picking up from like previous body cues that they were giving me when they were talking about their family or when they were answering in certain ways." You're just like, "Okay, well, there's some tension there." And so you start asking about other questions. So you're picking
up stuff that you might not even have clocked as it was happening at the time. But you've amalgamated and you know exactly what direction to go. I think that's an incredibly um wonderful thing to have. Um and I think that yeah, that outside of just psychiatry, I think that does make you a good friend. It makes you a good partner. It makes you a good parent. I think it's so helpful with parenting. Um so I think I think it's just that
huge scope of understanding that emotional condition. >> Does emotional sensitivity have an impact on people's self-esteem?
>> But sometimes it can be negative. You know, if if you're highly emotionally sensitive, I think and you're used to emotional data negatively, sometimes that can start to impact your self-esteem. And you're you're walking into a room and you know, self-worth and self-confidence are different. But you walk into a room and you start to feel like, "Okay, maybe I'm not wanted here." and things like that. And and
you're reading emotional information and and possibly attaching a narrative on there that doesn't actually exist. That can impact your self-esteem for sure. Um but there are other times, like, for example, in the work that I do as a psychiatrist, because of that emotional sensitivity, I'm celebrated for that. And I think it's a really unique field to be in as an emotionally sensitive because that's one of the areas where I
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and self-esteem? >> I think self-esteem is like inherent. Inherent in like that's that's you. Confidence is more, I think, what you're capable of and what your, you know, your like your confidence in your skills and what you can do in that moment. >> So, confidence, I think, fluctuates and self-esteem is just self-worth is your >> Okay, does that mean that people with RSD are more likely to need constant
>> Yes. It is. >> Cuz I think what what's happening is that they're getting this negative input or potentially it's not actually negative. It could be neutral. >> as negative or positive input as >> That's happened, too. Uh but you're reading it as negative. And so there are times where you get so stuck in these amygdala loops of fear and your your stress hormones are like just cascading through your body that you're just like,
"I just need someone else to tell me that I'm not like that this isn't actually the case." And so it's a it's a form of reality testing. >> Mhm. Do you think that you can build self-esteem without external validation? Yeah, I think so. I think with, you know, I I guess success is kind of external validation, but >> but [clears throat] but doing I think there is stuff that you can work on your self-esteem.
One of the biggest things to help with self-esteem, I think, is understanding your own brain. Cuz I think if you have if you are able to destigmatize for yourself, like, "This isn't a personal failing. This is just truly neurobiologically how my brain is working." I think that can bolster your self-esteem pretty tremendously. >> Mhm. Does this mean that compliments are hard for these people to believe? If
somebody pays you a compliment, is it quite likely that it's going to be brushed off by someone with RSD? Sometimes. I think it depends on on how they're receiving it in the moment. Like, and what the what the relationship is with the person. Like, for example, if it's a relationship where, you know, a a sibling that's always kind of been a straight broker and they get a compliment, you know, you might not feel
like, "I don't trust that compliment. That's weird." If it might be they're already self-conscious about something and they don't know the other person well and they give them a compliment, maybe that hits their ear weird because they're already kind of self-conscious about it. It really depends on where they are in that moment. >> But it's possible. >> How does emotional sensitivity show up in relationships?
>> You sound exasperated by that question. >> it's such a broad question. Um I think emotional sensitivity plays a role in every relationship. Like whether you're highly emotionally sensitive or not, I think relationships are just kind of this minefield for emotions anyway, because for in a very real way, you're putting your self in a spot of vulnerability. You are, you know, I mean, theoretically, in vulnerability,
where you're exposing parts of yourself to another person, and you're having to navigate those waters and see, you know, you're really like putting it out there, and if the person likes you or doesn't like you, you're you're putting yourself out there to possibly receive rejection, possibly receive criticism. So, I think that for a highly emotionally sensitive person can get really tricky. Um and people
I know a lot of people that are highly emotionally sensitive who have rejection sensitive dysphoria, who don't want to date anymore. They're like, this is too hard. I can't do that, because as soon as there is a delay in texting, I've convinced myself that this person isn't isn't interested, and I've redownloaded an app. >> Why does waiting for a text feel so >> I think it's just that lack of that immediate answer and that
knowledge, your brain just fills in a narrative in that empty space. And so, like for example, if they were interested, they would respond to me right away. If that like I've even had people who have thought, and I've thought this in the past, if I'm sitting on someone who hasn't texted back, my brain will go to, well, they're with somebody else. Like they're they're not thinking about me, they're with somebody
else. And like by the time they respond, like they got off of their shift, I have moved on. >> Like I'm angry with them, and then, you know, it takes a while for me to recalibrate and figure out, but that sometimes that's where my brain is >> Right. So, does this mean that anxious people sometimes will sabotage relationships >> before they've even had the chance to be >> How does that show up? >> I mean, that was my pattern in all of my
20s. Like as soon as >> What would you do? >> Be like as soon as people got close enough, and I was worried that I was, you know, like we're getting a little bit too close, and now I have to show you actual parts of myself, or or I'm I'm afraid that if you know certain parts of myself, or you know that I'm really, really emotionally sensitive, and I overthink absolutely everything that you say, you're going to
leave. So, I'm just going to end it.
I've never been broken up with >> Ever? [laughter] >> Cuz I would just like >> You can't find me. I quit. >> Yeah, I quit. I'm out of here. So, I would just leave before and and it was literally no fault of their own. They would not be the cause of this. >> Big fear of abandonment? Well, I mean, not even abandonment, just like because it wouldn't be abandonment, because I would opt I would rather be
alone. I Like but I don't want you to say something negative about me. I don't want you to point out something that I already fear about myself. I don't want I don't want you to say those words that you don't want to be with me. Like I'm fine alone. I just don't want you to say >> Mhm. Because that would be a judgment on you, and that would be you being pushed >> Yeah, I'm fine by myself, but I just
don't want you to push me away. >> Okay. Like vulnerability hangovers as well, after you've opened up having this >> Oh, yeah. >> period of time. What is vulnerability >> I To me, it is And like for so many of my patients, it's this period where you feel like you've shared too much, and you've been too vulnerable, and you have like let in somebody else a little bit into your internal environment. And so
you've you've cracked that door open so they can see that kind of stuff. And so then what my brain does is I just spin and spin and spin and think about like, okay, well now they know this, they probably know this, and they probably they're probably thinking that I'm just like a huge weenie and that I can't handle anything and that I, you know, and that and I think it's like a direct shot from being very vulnerable to being
very embarrassed and then pulling away. >> Yeah, it feels to me like the common thread between a lot of this is not really the feeling of the emotions deeply. It's the story that you tell yourself about what those emotions mean and what other people might think about you for having them. It's like a lot of shame wrapped up in this. At least that's how I'm interpreting it. >> I think I think if you were to look at
emotional sensitivity kind of as a spectrum, I mean there is a place where, you know, maybe you're not as emotionally sensitive as you might should be. >> Dana White. >> I don't want to say it. Um [gasps] then there is a place where, you know, your your ups and downs you're kind of regulated up in the middle. There's a place where I think you're highly emotionally sensitive. And then I think when you move further down that
>> Pathologically sensitive. >> Yeah, I think that's that's more rejection sensitive dysphoria. >> Right, okay. So we're talking about the most sensitive people. >> I say. Yeah. >> Okay, and and you consider this to be >> Right, okay. But you managed to operate in the world. I mean you've chosen a very specific >> industry to be in, yeah, right? I think this is a this is the thing again, if we were to take you at one end of the
spectrum and Dana White at the other, physiologically also two very different humans. Um what has happened there which is I guess pretty great. Like Dana White would probably make a [ __ ] horrendous psychiatrist. And I don't care I don't think that you would be fantastic as the CEO of the UFC of fighting sports. >> Yeah, well, maybe you're maybe true.
there are dispositions and there are situations that you put yourself into. If you were in a relationship with somebody who was go, go, go, doesn't really think about emotions that much, isn't able to sit with you in the mark, isn't able to hold space that much, that would be a bad type of partnership. Right? Now, I'm sure you can make it work. Maybe you could even have a flourishing relationship, but it would be done by
like gritting your teeth and gripping the bar incredibly aggressive. >> The same thing for Dana White. If Dana White was in a relationship or in a business where he constantly had to sort of be very fluffy and very soft and sort patient, sensitive, more demure, you know, moving at a a more delicate pace. I don't know. He might be able to make it work. I'm sure that he he is a flexible, competent human. But if he
does that, he's going to be like not fully utilizing this part of his capacity in the same way as the world loses a great psychiatrist if you become the CEO of the UFC. >> So, this and this to me is like the more that I think about it and the older that I get, compatibility is kind of everything in life. Okay, I have this type of a disposition. I can work on it and I can try and smooth out some of the
edges that do feel a little bit close to pathological or are just a bit maladaptive, right? It's it's firing in the wrong at the wrong times and I want it to be a little bit more this and a bit less that. >> But largely, you have a set and a suite of strengths that come along with this particular disposition that you have and you can put yourself in a situation where those aren't things that you need to curtail,
they're things that you can use as a platform and a springboard.
I pay a lot of attention to stuff, right? I pay a lot of attention specifically words. Words was like my first love as a kid. I read a lot as a kid. And now it means that when I build brands, like I I build this thing, I build this podcast, word word play and coming up with cool copy and spending obsessive amounts of time the for the first run that we ever did, you'll see that there's three icons on the back of
this can. >> One of the icons was half a point off offset on the back and this had gone through like we sold millions of cans and no one had noticed and one day I picked a can up and I was like guys there's something wrong with the back of the can. And the only reason that that was able to be seen was because of that level of attention to detail. Now is that going to be the difference between this being a billion dollar brand and
not? Probably not. However, that same >> Wonderful. That's that that's >> from a board certified psychiatrist >> My point being I work in industries where that attention to detail can be used properly, right? It can be used really well. Let's say that I was a an an architect or an engineer that helped to build bridges or I was somebody maybe a surgeon's assistant or something like that like really paying attention to how
clean the surfaces are things like that like that'd be great. If I was in a different industry, I'm not convinced that that level of attention to detail would be so good. So again, what I'm kind of trying to get out here is that for people who think well, I I feel stuff a lot or I pay a lot of attention or I I focus on things I tend to ruminate I tend to have intrusive thoughts that play out these pantomimes
of what might have happened with this person and their motivations. It's like that can be and should be alchemized in some ways, right? You can we can work on that. But also you can just find worlds and domains in which that's like a a real [ __ ] superpower. And I think that trying to get people to not see that suppression as a strength but to see okay, the issue is not you being sensitive, the issue is you being in a world that
doesn't utilize your sensitivity properly. I think that's a I don't know it's just an interesting way to get tactical around it. >> That's how I ended up in psychiatry. So I went into medical school with the hopes of doing pediatrics. My mom's a pediatrician I was like that's what I'm going to do. I got through pediatrics and I'm like this is a little boring. I I wish it wasn't but I was like I can't be in clinic all day and I
also can't be sick every winter. Like, I can't do it. >> Um and so I was like, okay, let me pivot, and I'm going to do peds ICU. I like I really thought that was my calling. And it was because I was like, I'm doing all this work from med school, and like this is the superhero job. Like, I am saving children. Like, there's nothing that is better than >> I went in for my like letter of recommendation, walk into her office. I
was like, at the door of her office, and woman like stops me at the door, and she's like, I hope you're not coming in here for a letter. And I was like, okay. What? And she's like, you cry all the time. You cannot do this. You will burn out in 5 seconds. And I like I wish, and I put this in my book like this story, cuz I was like, I like in my brain I was like, just say something. Make a noise. Respond I I
couldn't even say anything, because I was like, she's correct. I knew in that moment that she was correct. Like, it that were every day I went to work that I was in the peds ICU, I was scared, and I was upset, and I like I like I would like reporting to my um attending, and I would be telling them what happened overnight, and I'm like crying as I'm telling them at the And so I leave her office, and I was
sitting in my car, and I was like, okay, I guess what area of medicine can I cry in? And that's how [laughter] I ended up in psychiatry. And so that's I mean, it you finding an environment that can hold all of that emotional sensitivity, I think is really important. >> same can go for friendships and relationships. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Just on the relationship thing, uh texting, waiting for text, why is
uncertainty so much harder to deal with than bad news? >> Uh cuz it's not I think I think it it's it's the the fact that it's not hard news bad news difficult, but I think at some point you're like, "Okay, that's really But here are the steps I need to do to make it better and like now I can make kind of make a game plan. The uncertainty, I will tell you 10 times out of 10 I will convince myself a way worse outcome is happening
>> in real time. And so I've already convinced myself that the worst possible outcome is happening rather than if I actually get, you know, the the knowledge that something bad is happening. I'm like, "Okay, that's not as bad as what I thought thought it would be." >> I suppose as well you can create situations in imagination that like defy the laws of physics. Like your dead great-grandmother can come
back from the grave to laugh at you about the things that that that can't even happen, but that's how much our brains abhor having uncertainty that they would rather fantasize a nightmare than deal with ambiguity. >> I I know that I I for one have have come up with situations where like then I'm later I'm telling like my mom has taken the brunt of this where I'm telling her all of this stuff and she's like,
>> That's deranged. >> "What is this? How did that come in your >> Okay, so this must be the same thing the same dynamic of why ghosting is so >> because there's no closure.
>> Yeah, there's no closure and I think like this is ghosting is just awful. People shouldn't do that. Just just so you know. It's just an awful way to communicate. Um, I think this is one of those things where as an emotionally sensitive person you you ghosting is not just like, "Okay, this is the dissolution of the relationship." Your brain automatically goes into there's something about me that forced
this person away. And and so that >> Not that I'm an [ __ ] it's I'm >> Yes. So it it gets turned on you and which I think is such It's so cruel to do to somebody else. >> Tell me if this sounds familiar. You train regularly, you eat reasonably well, you feel fine, but you're just kind of going off vibes. Most people have absolutely no idea what's going on inside their body and that is why I partnered with Function. Function gives
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>> I'm wondering to sort of take it back to the how RSD and emotional sensitivity shows up in men, I wonder whether emotionally avoidant men are sometimes just emotionally sensitive men in disguise that don't have enough courage. Oh, yeah. A lot of times, yes. I think emotionally avoidant men um s- you know, you again, going back to this thing of like men really don't have a lot of space to explore how to be
emotionally sensitive. Um because you know, just from a young age they're told that they can't be. And so they learn how to suppress it and to change it. And so, when they're put into situations where they may have to be emotionally sensitive or they may have you know, engage in a way that they could get hurt or they could get rejected or something else could trigger sadness or an emotional response,
they're just like, "Nope, I'm out." Just going to pull myself away from this. I mean, I've told you about I mean, I've been avoiding in the past because of that. >> How do you draw the line between emotional sensitivity and emotional fragility? Because what we're talking about here is, "Hey, you have this superpower. There's going to be some challenges that come along with it. But, wherever you are on the spectrum from
from Dana White to yourself, the >> I love that we're the extremes. >> I think you are. I really think you are. I think you're kind of technically different species. Um I'm interested in when saying "This is actually something that you need to man up about. This is something that you need to get over. This is something that you need to grit your teeth and work through." As opposed to, "You just don't fully understand how
emotionally fluid and sensitive I am. Like, I feel things deeply, you know?" Because everybody likes the idea of being validated. >> Sure. But, validation done to the results in no accountability. >> Right? There's no point If If every emotion that you feel and every response that you have is valid, then you go, "Okay, in that case, I don't have to work on anything. I can just be as big of an [ __ ] or a [ __ ]
as I want and never actually as opposed to Okay, are there a Are there some limits that I need to push myself up against?" So, I think a lot of people will be feeling this if they listen. It's like, "All right, okay. Like, these people, this is interesting. Like, I My sister or my girlfriend is like she cries at things that I wouldn't usually and sometimes it takes a while for her to come back down after she's had an
emotional event and so on and so forth. But, like how does somebody know when it's emotional fragility that should be worked on? When should they push and when should they pivot? >> I don't think it's for another person to make that decision. I think it's for the person experiencing that moment cuz like for me, I think this is what that past 3 years of research has gotten me to cuz it I for years I'm like, am I too
fragile? Am I too weak? What is wrong? Like what is this? And I think it we've just emotionally sensitive people in general have been kind of put and not put but existing in an extremely difficult like right now with the world is a hard place to be a human in. This is just a weird time to live >> to feel feelings it is. If you don't want to feel feelings, it's actually quite a fun place to be in, I think. You
know, there's like so much this there's so much novelty and there's lots of things that you can do and you can have an infinite number of the velocity of different stimulus that you can enjoy. That's great. But if you actually want to feel feelings, it's kind of horrendous. Okay. Well, I'm on the horrendous end. Like I I think I think existing in the world right now can sometimes be very but I think that
for an emotionally sensitive person we've also never been given tools. Like there's we have been told you're too sensitive, you're too fragile, you're too weak and you need to kind of strengthen yourself. >> But no one's told you how to do that. And really what it boils down to is is looking at that like there's that step of us receiving that emotional data and then how do we catch it kind of in that
moment so that we can, you know, impact either we're not going to change the processing cuz we're still going to read it but can we impact the intensity? Can we impact the duration? Can we get past this and make it a usable moment? And there's skills and tools that come with it and that's what 3 years of like pulling from every area of psychology and psychiatry to give tools that were would work in the moment and over time
that's what led to this book because I don't think people have that. I never got that. >> What are the most powerful emotional regulation tools? >> Okay. So, I I came up with the calm your mind toolkit, which is 12 of them. And and I will I will tell you that all of them are are things that you probably heard before. You you've heard challenge negative thoughts. You've heard move your body. You've heard delay your
reaction. You've heard stuff like that. But I think for an emotionally sensitive person or someone who's going through big emotions in real time, things can get so overwhelming in that moment that it's like when I have that like get absolutely flooded emotionally, nothing is happening up here. Like I can't think or process or like utilize what tool am I supposed to use? So, this was so helpful for me to actually go
through and in a place where I was regulated, I could be like, okay, this is the tool I want to use and then actually break down the steps knowing from an emotionally sensitive brain, this is when I'm going to feel blank. Now, if I have this book that could tell me like step-by-step what I'm supposed to do cuz that's what I wish I had. I just I just want like a I wanted a guide cuz I think it would have made med
school easier. It would have made dating easier. It would have made you know, the early years of my marriage easier. It would have made parenting easier. I think it's just there Did that answer your question? >> Mhm. Well, I guess >> pick the top three tools to calm your mind and how do people do them >> Yeah, that was the question. Okay. Um I think one of my favorite ones is just utilizing movement cuz I think that
there is a tremendous and I'm not saying like you have to be in like some heavy-duty like weightlifting kind of thing and you have to do a certain amount of cardio or something. I'm saying that when you are incredibly emotionally overloaded, there's a tremendous amount of value in like physical movement and one to like pattern disruption. So, you're actually moving. Two, you're getting oxygenated glucose to your brain and hopefully
shunting it to that frontal lobe so you can get resources there so you can think and process and override that amygdala in real time. >> What does that look like? Someone's going through a event where they're emotionally activated. Do they start doing push-ups? >> You got me. Whatever floats your boat, man. But I would say like during I the last time I utilized it in real let me see, in a meeting and I was talking it during the meeting.
I was talking about leaving the practice I'd been at for 9 years and starting my own practice. And so, I'm like there were all of my partners were around me. I felt like I was like I was overcome with guilt and fear about starting something new and it was just it was a very big moment for me. And I recognized like, "Okay, this is what I need to do." And even within that, I just from under like I started like just
tensing my calves and like moving my legs and do and just like and I think when you look at like ADHD in general cuz, you know, almost 100% of people with ADHD have some some form of RSD or you know, they're they're fall on that spectrum. You look at fidgeting and things like that as a form of like emotional regulation and self-stimulation and things like that. You're trying to actually search some of that dopamine,
norepinephrine kind of data. >> Mhm. Okay, movement. >> What next? >> Okay. Um you're asking me my favorite so I'm thinking about the ones I've most recently used. One of them I really like and it's delay your reaction. Cuz my initial impulse, the minute I get pressed up against the wall or like if I have like this like big emotional stuff that I don't know how to deal with, is I I respond with urgency.
all of the time, if something is happening, like if there is a delay in a text message, I will be that person who texts a fourth time, "Where are you? What's happening?" And this is just like a reminder, like if I delay my response, >> I'm allowing that amygdala to stop spinning as much, and I allow that frontal lobe to come on. And then, the narrative I'm telling myself is going to be significantly less negative. And
usually by that time, that person has >> Does that not also create more time and uncertainty, though? >> Here's the deal. I think that if you are If you understand that that it's a very purposeful and mindful thing that you're doing. If you If you know that that's what you're doing for your brain, you're not You're not just like stepping away and like you're like, "Okay, well, maybe they'll respond in that time." I'm
stepping away because I know that I need to give my brain time to just like stop overheating. Like I want my amygdala to stop spinning out of control. I want my frontal lobe to come online. I want to give it enough time to do that because I know that I will think better. I think that gives me I know that I'm using a tool. I'm not just sitting there. >> How has it been being a mom with this? Because when I think about
even the well-balanced parents, there is anxiety, "Where's my kid? They're late back from soccer practice. I don't know when they're going to come through the door. Who Who are you going out with this evening?" I have to assume that the disposition that you're going into parenting with can be great because you're going to be attuned to your child's needs, but can also be highly chaotic cuz you're going to feel
I think I mean, it's chaotic, but I think all parenting is kind of chaotic, to be honest with you. I think it's just it's a it's it's a wild ride. But I think that I'm very lucky because my husband is very measured and calm and patient. And so, I think he is like such a good emotional barometer for all of us. And I think that in that context where I feel so much safety and so much, you we're all given kind of free reign to
explore our feelings and to navigate through life, I think being emotionally sensitive as a parent has been really helpful for me. And it's really helped me kind of understand cuz kids like can be very annoying cuz this is just part of being a kid. >> Well, reliably they grow up to be annoying adults as well. >> Yeah, they can be annoying totally. But, as kids there's stuff like even just like noise and and just like stuff that they
do and you know, they're not little adults. They're kids. Their frontal lobes aren't developed. They don't know any better. But, you're you're so tired and fatigued from this non-stop like marathon of parenting that sometimes it's it's hard to remember that. I think being emotionally sensitive, you look at your kid having a big emotional moment and you're like, I know what this feels like and I know what what can help you
come out of it and it's not going to be like snapping or yelling or like trying to pull you out of that moment by force. It's it's giving you that safety and that and that freedom to explore and figure out the solution for yourself and pull yourself out of it. Delay response. What's your third >> My third favorite I think you'll like this is mindfulness. I think being as like really really drilling down on the mindfulness and for
me, I think what is really important about this is not for I always thought that mindfulness is like factory reset. Like you got to be thinking about nothing. Like if you're doing meditation or something like that, nothing is going on in your brain. And I think the difference for me is giving the space to non-judgmentally just observe what's happening in my brain. And like just observe what is going on
and there you know, there there was a study that came out of Yale that was looking at this mindfulness and like the power of like just observation instead of like judgmentally rushing to solve that feeling. Just looking at the feeling, it reduces activation in the brain. >> Mhm. Mhm. Yeah, [snorts] I mean that was something that I learned on that that meditation retreat. It's an interesting style of
meditation Jhana, which is the one that I was doing. So with mindfulness it's a bit more brute forcey, which is I think why it's become more popular. You have a thought, you notice the thought is there and then you sort of release it away. You almost it's not quite a pushing, it's more a opening of the hand. But with the school that I was doing, you you actually welcome that in. So you pull the thought towards
yourself. So you see the part of you that goes you start thinking about work and then you judge yourself at being distracted for thinking about work. And then you notice both of those thoughts and you go, "Wow, there's that bit of me that thinks about work. I'm really glad that I care that much about my pursuits. Like why don't you come like you show some gratitude to that." And then wow, there's that bit of
me that's judging me and for not being good at this thing. He just wants to work so hard. Like he really wants to do this thing right and he's here to protect me. And like you can come here as well. And as you continue to do that, it's a very different It was a very different experience especially do I've done I don't know 2,000 2 and 1/2 thousand sessions of Vipassana across my life and got thrust into this new school. I guess
it must be similar to learning to kickbox your entire life and then going and doing Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. You go, "Well, I'm still fighting somebody but the way that I'm doing it, the domain is completely different." And yeah, one of the things that was kind of interesting at least with the the mindfulness part there was it's very much about emotional conductivity. It's about, okay, how can I see what I'm feeling completely
non-judgmentally? And I think that it's the same thing that you're getting at. With one of them, you're letting it go, and with the other one, you're bringing it in. But, for both of them, there is a lack of judgment, right? And I think that that shame spiral that we were talking about is You talked about kids there. What do you think TikTok is doing and social media? What do you think social media is doing to emotionally
sensitive teenagers? Well, okay, so here's the deal. I think I think social media is just a weird place in general. And that that's coming from someone who is on social media. Um I myself find my I get triggered by social media all the time. I'm constantly comparing myself to others. I feel like my a lot of my um relationship with self-worth for a long time was driven by numbers. Like, how many likes did I get on a post? How
much engagement am I getting? Like, how like what's happening on that? That's what was driving like, am I good at what I'm doing? Like, is it I was getting that external validation. I am a physician who's gone to med school and who's studied the brain. Like, and that's still happening to me. So, for kids whose their frontal lobe isn't fully developed, I think they probably are at higher risk. And so, I think that
it's just a difficult I don't think I don't think completely like shielding them from social media and and from that entire world just like you can't really like the train is moving. You can't You can't completely shelter your kids from absolutely everything. You have to teach them how to navigate these constantly evolving >> I've learned from over a thousand podcast episodes, the easier that you make your health routine, the more
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Can the way that you're raised in early childhood enhance your sensitivity? I don't know whether you've done much work into nature versus nurture for this. >> I think there is a huge part that's genetic. There is a huge part that also, if you grow up in like this incredibly chaotic and tumultuous home, you are already hypervigilant. You're searching for cues. You You can be more emotionally sensitive because of that as well. There
are lots of >> if those two things get combined. >> Right, okay. How early does rejection sensitivity emerge? >> You I mean, you can see it in 2-year-olds. You can see it in Are there some parenting behaviors you think that accidentally create emotional sensitivity or maybe even >> I don't I don't I think that there's some things that a lot of parents are doing in hopes that they are getting a more resilient child. Like
teaching them, "You don't need to cry about this. You need to move on. You need to You know, this isn't a big deal." We're and the way that I kind of have thought about those kind of because like even raising my own kids, I like I think about that all the time. I'm like, that isn't that big of a deal. Like my kid had a tantrum the other day that I wouldn't >> give him the heel of like the loaf of bread and I was like, that's objectively
the worst part. Like you don't want that. I don't want to give it to you and like it was like a huge thing. But then I was like, this kid >> has not dealt with like disappointment From what I'm understanding, this is probably one of the worst things has happened to date. Like he hasn't had a very hard life. So like I need to teach him how to navigate disappointment instead of being like, this isn't a big
deal. It probably is kind of a big deal to him. He really wants that heel of bread. And so it's you know, and I don't really have a good reason not to give him it. But like we just we had to navigate through that moment and like with big tantrums, you you deal with But I think it's easy in that moment to be like, this is a dumb problem. Move on. >> I think the heel of bread is actually a really lovely meme for everything, which
is working out the difference between validating feelings and encouraging >> And this is in adulthood as well. You know, there can be a situation you're in where what you're after is a heel of bread. And everybody around you and you yourself, the better version of you has every right to go, no dude, you don't want that. Like you're being silly. You're being ridiculous. Um and again, finding this difference and finding the
line between validating somebody's feelings and going, hey, I know that you feel this way, but also not encouraging them to further resilience that they need emotionally. I think that's where the sort of rubber is really going to meet the road with this thing. >> How we got through that moment, this heel of bread moment, is I took out a huge challah bread and then I took out another piece of bread and I was like,
"Let me just tell you, these are the two pieces of bread we were talking about and I know you want this one. Describe what you like about this one instead of this one." And then he's like, "No, I wanted this one instead." And so I like I think it was just like he was so stuck on this idea and like didn't get past it and like instead of just being like, "That's dumb." Allowing him to actually see and get to that
conclusion, like I don't actually want the challah bread, was helpful for us. >> How does RSD show up in work and achievement? Because I have to assume that these are the overachievers, the >> Sometimes. So but sometimes it actually before you can even get to that spot where you're kind of overcompensating, you're not even putting yourself out there. So I have patients who have been, you know, I I couldn't even like I got
spooked in the job interview. And I like walked out. I couldn't do it. Like I I didn't feel like they liked me. Say you get past that spot and you're in the work environment, sometimes you are so and you see this a lot with high-achieving people and especially high-achieving I think societally there's just like pressure on women to do everything. To do it all and to just like not complain. So if another thing
comes along their way, yes, I can do it. Yes, I can take that on. Yes, I can do all this stuff. And so you just what happens is that you start to override the signs of burnout and you just keep adding more and more and more onto your plate because you don't want to look like you're less than your peers. You don't want to look you don't want people to be like, "Ah, she was able to do that last week. Why can't you
do that this week?" You don't want to look incapable and so you just keep adding more until you kind of reach that tipping point where you can't. >> Yeah, I think it's uh I I found this essay, uh The Ambitious Mother Paradox, Good Mother or Wasted Potential. It's really great. It's a quite a long read, but there's a a really interesting line here that says, "The implicit logic of protecting your right to work in the workforce was
clear. You can't argue for equal access and then immediately ask for accommodation that implies you are different." That women have just been brought into the workplace. This is not something that they want to be taken away from them. This is something that they're worried might be taken away from >> And yet, there are certain elements of many people's, but often many women's psychologies that can make the workplace
feel like kind of a spiky and unforgiving and a bit sterile and cold place to be. Like, "Hey, your emotional sensitivity in this a capitalist, meritocratic, very fast-paced Okay, there's not a massive amount of room for that." >> And yet, you also know as somebody who's just gotten into this high-powered career that you fought for this. And everybody else, all of the other women that have just fought for this, have
just got here. And you're like, "Well, I like I really want to be here and I don't want it to be taken away from me. And now I feel bad about asking for accommodation that implies that I'm different, which is I feel this thing and the guys around me don't seem to be feeling it in quite the same way. Or maybe they're just able to suppress it more effectively than I am." Uh I thought it was such a I'd never
really heard of anybody highlight the fact that there is a there's a tension like a bridge doing this in an earthquake that's moving in difficult directions that creates a sort of a pull on the system, especially for women in the workplace, especially for highly sensitive women in the workplace. I feel like I need to show up as the men that I think are the ones that are running the company, but I want to be
one of the women that's maybe running the company, but I'm like denying part of the nurturing, empathetic, people skills that I've got that are my competitive advantage. So, I need to perform in this way and I don't want to be seen as less than. and I also want to protect it for everybody else, but I also don't want to deny myself, and I might need to ask for a bit of support, but I'm worried if I have support,
that's accommodation for this brand new world that I just like it's hard. I Reading that essay, this big massive essay by Taylor, I was like, that's a lot. >> That's a lot to navigate. >> It's a lot, and then just like from a logistical perspective, there's also that, you know, child rearing falls in that. So, all of a sudden, you're at the peak of your career, you have a kid, you have to step away from that, and then
reintegrate, and then all of a sudden you'll find that, you know, you know, it's probably because you did step away, it now, you know, your it's almost as if everything you worked towards kind of gets pulled away from you, and your your everyone assumes that all of your priorities are completely different, and and there's opportunities that are kept out of your reach. It's like it's a it can be very difficult to maneuver
just from a logistical perspective as women are the ones bearing the children. >> I had a great conversation about dad brain, but also mom brain came up, too, and the fact that if you have a kid as a mother, 2.5% gray matter loss, ish. Like, that really does not Basically, anything that requires executive function that is not your child gets pruned a little bit. >> And that means, yeah, you're if you were
EA to some high-powered CEO, and you were basically running his entire life, or you'd be chief of staff, right? And you before were just this absolute military killer. You could go, you knew exactly what was going on at all times. And now it feels like there's fluff in your brain. You go, "Huh. I I Again, this is another situation where I think compatibility, and one thing that would be cool, I know that
other people This isn't my idea, but suggesting that mothers look at transitioning careers to things that utilize this new skill set, not to see it as a weakness, right? Not to go, I want to be the person that I was when I was 25 and I had a literally a different brain and different priorities and a different stage of life, as opposed to going, "Huh, I've just unlocked this entire new world. Maybe becoming a therapist would be like a
really incredible opportunity for me to focus this brand new level of empathy. That would be That would be great." >> Flip side. >> Flip side is have those environments accommodate those changes. Understand that those those changes are happening to women and that, you know, priorities shift and instead of putting them in the same roles, pivot their roles so they can utilize some of those skills that
they have. >> I So, same sort of thing but inside of the same company, I think that's a great idea. I get the sense, and this is a culture and narrative change that we need to be made, I get the sense that a lot of women would feel that as being if it was imposed on them, >> "I'm less than now. Oh, you're saying that I can't do what I used to do." And in some ways, what you're trying to open up is, "No, I'm saying that you're
better at doing other things that you couldn't do previously." Cuz there's two ways to look at it, right? What have I lost? What have I gained? And we're saying, "This is something you've gained. Why don't we utilize this new >> As opposed to, "This is something you've lost. Why don't we get you away from using that old skill?" And just the framing, but I I I don't >> Framing and the volitional component.
Like if if if the woman felt like, "You know what? This is where I could spend more time and I could utilize these skill sets a little bit better." Like I think I think at the end of the day should be kind of her choice and her her pushing that kind of decision. >> Yeah, I agree. Creating the culture that makes that not feel like just chalking up an L that is where an external influence can adapt like an internal desire. You know,
"Oh, the way that this is framed externally, what society says I should be doing, >> actually makes me feel more or less comfortable with doing it. And I think, you know, the ruthless part of this, and this is for every woman that runs a career, let alone every man, it's like the market doesn't give a [ __ ] >> Yeah, I know. >> And ultimately, businesses need to run businesses that are profitable and are
growing. And that is where, finding that line between validation and when do you push, when do you pivot? At some point, there has to be, and this is the same thing, it's true for guys. The same thing is true for, like, you can't be, if your testosterone is dropping and if you're not quite as mentally quick, at 65, you're probably not going to be the same killer salesman that you were at >> This is
The market doesn't care. I'm sorry. Like, you've come up and you've shown all of the Anyway, I Here's how I've like, thinking about this whole conversation and thinking about your Sensitivity is the input, and emotional intelligence is the output. Feels like the equation that we're playing with. Is that a fair assessment?
And that gives people certain And it gives people certain challenges as well. >> Yeah, I think emotional sensitivity as a whole, I think that it it's something that can be difficult and it can be wonderful, and it's just I know, like, as a person who's gone through this and as a physician who's gone through medical school and psychiatry training and all this, this was never taught. It People aren't
taught about how to actually in a very real and tangible way deal with their emotions. And I think that emotional stuff, like, when you're looking at, cuz a lot of my research was on ADHD, when you're looking at ADHD, like, a lot of that, like, executive function and all that stuff, like, to some degree, you can you can find a hack or you can delegate or you can do this. You can't do that with emotions.
>> Yeah. They just end you, and you can't show them to anybody else. >> No. You can't like you have to be able to process and get through on the other side. So, if you are completely consumed by them, or if you're having a hard time regulating them, I mean, that you're not going to be able to think. You're not going to be able to move on from that moment. It takes so much brain space. And so, that's that's one of the things
that I hope that this book will help give people a little bit more agency over their emotions. >> If there's someone that feels like they're in the world and it's too spiky for their emotions, what would you want them to take away? What would you want to tell them? >> They just don't have the tools yet. Just like it it life is hard. This world is hard. And I think being emotionally sensitive it for
so many of us is a beautiful thing. Is a beautiful thing. It's just it's sometimes really difficult to keep your head above water when your day. And so, having those tools and being able to grab hold of them and use them in appropriate times is >> Dr. Sasha Hamdani, ladies and gentlemen. You're great. I appreciate you going into the murky depths of people with way too many emotions. Where should people go to check out
everything you've got going on? >> So, I'm on Instagram. I'm on TikTok. I'm on YouTube, and it's the Psych Doctor >> And the new book. >> And the new book, Too Sensitive, which is out um August 25th. >> Heck yeah. Appreciate you. All right. Goodbye, my beauties. >> Yeah, we did it. >> Congratulations. You made it to the end of a podcast episode without dying. Now, here's another one. Go on. >> Watch it.