Lance Armstrong

00:00Yeah. And we're live, ladies and gentlemen. Lance Armstrong. How are you, buddy? Good, man. Thanks. Thanks for doing this. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Uh I really appreciate it for for real. And um you know, you were just telling me before this uh we were talking about social media. And uh social media, the greatest part about social media is you get in contact with everybody. The worst part about social media is that you get in contact with everybody. And this tiny percentage of people that won't let it rest. Like I was looking at something that you posted and uh it was something about some like you had a great time doing some race and like one of the first tweets one of the first comments was uh yeah as good a time as running away from drug tests. Yeah. Or Yeah. I mean that's right. You're you're just gonna have I mean what did we I mean I posted the other

00:48day we were we were putting our Christmas tree up and my family you know all the kids there and Anna and you know the lights and the and the ornaments and and it's at the Christmas tree and you know of course most people love it. They think it's a cute picture but then there's always the one you know oh is the is the tree juiced you know or or something. I mean there's just always which I get. I mean that's just part of it. Yeah, but sometimes you're like, is that the best we got? Like, I mean, maybe that is maybe I deserve I don't know. But it's like give it a rest sometimes. Well, you definitely deserve some of it, right? Yeah, for sure. There's no way around it. Of course, this but it's also I think one of the things about this whole scandal, the whole thing, it illuminated the real issue. And the real issue is the entire and this is what we're talking about.

01:37Bill Bird did that thing on Conan where he was saying the whole sport is like this. It's not there was out of all the people that won the tour to France in all the years that you did it. If you go back to people that either weren't implicated or didn't test positive, like what is like 18th place or something crazy like that, you know? That's probably generous. I I Yeah, right. It would be um it would be hard to hard to know that. And um I mean look, Joe, these are all easy for me to to sit here and and say and talk about and people would say, "Well, of course he says that. Of course he thinks that." And well, it's all out on the table now. I mean, you really don't have anything to say. But but is it? But is it? No. I mean, it's um Well, I guess it is, but you know, people don't want to talk about that. I mean, people want to talk about my issue, and that's I guess also

02:34understandable. Um, but look, it was a it was a up time and and you had this you were at this crossroads of of a very hard sport, uh, a very hard event. Some would say one of the hardest sporting events in the world, 3 weeks, 2500 miles, conditions, terrain, etc., etc. So, that meets really the perfect drug. I mean, you have a drug that's that's incredibly beneficial and at the time totally undetectable. Um, and and everybody dove in. And so, um, nobody's nobody's nobody wanted to be in that position. It's not like any of us growing up as kids thought, dude, I'm going to I'm going to go to Europe and and get, you know, all doped up and try to win bikers. No, nobody wanted to be there. Like, we all went with pure intentions. We got there and we're and I'm talking about the this crop of Americans that went to Europe and the was messy and we're like whoa like okay do we go home or do we

03:35stay and fight and uh you literally almost everybody stayed and fought and then they fought you know we we fought the way that that the fight was being fought and um you know and and that all meets with where we are today and And the people who were there, I think, can speak to it. Me, my teammates, my peers, my rivals, the competition. Um, and we have a unique perspective on it because we were we were in the war. But the person on Main Street, right, the corner of Maine and first wasn't there and they don't understand it. And so, they can't really speak to it. But that doesn't change the fact that they're disappointed. They're they're really disappointed. They're disappointed in me. They're disappointed in the sport. uh they might hate me, they might hate the sport. Um they they were most likely defenders of mine and so they're pissed off and I you know it's taken me a long

04:31time to really understand that. Um but I'll spend the rest of my life trying to trying to work that one out with with that person. And I and I don't you know they're out there. There millions of them. So, um, well, they have a legitimate point, but there's also there's people out there that want you to be wrong and want you they want to find someone who's done something bad and never let it go. And I think there's there's definitely some of that going on. And there's also people that they don't have a lot of sympathy for people who've been extremely successful and have made mistakes. Yeah. like it gives them the green light to just decide to just continually attack you. But if I what I tried to do when this whole thing was going down is I tried to put myself in your position like you're this worldass biker. It's 1994 and that's right around when you started UZPO.

05:2895 95. So around this time when you realized that was 20 years ago. 20 years ago. It's kind of crazy, right? Crazy. When you realize that this that pretty much all the best guys are doing this now, what is that feeling like when you're like, "Okay, I've got to cross over into this deceptive territory. Now all of a sudden, I'm I have to lie about this. I have to hide this and I have to be a part of this sort of underground thing, this underground aspect that's a part of this great sport." Right. Well, we we held off as long as we, you know, I mean, you know, EPO came along in the early 90s. Um, we sort of got to Europe in uh '92, 93. Um, and then it by that point, by 94, it's, you know, fullon and we're thinking, okay, this isn't good, but surely they're going to have a test for this for EPO. Um, and we waited. We waited and and it just never came. And then uh then we get to 95, there's

06:32tremendous pressure on the team, within the team. Uh we're losing the sponsor. Will the sponsor renew? The team wants results. And we're going, "All right, we're we're really here." And so we all collectively made the decision in spring of 95 that all right, we we have to go play ball. The first time you shot that stuff, what was that like? Now, it's not it's it's it's not like uh I knew you were going to ask these questions. It's it's not like that. It's not that type of drug. It's not like a like a cocaine or a or it's not it's not it's not I didn't mean it that way. I meant was there a feeling like ah we've crossed into this land of cheating. It it was so long ago. I mean, that would have been that was 21 years ago. So, it's or 20 years ago. It's a little tough to to remember exactly. Um um you know and also too I mean it wasn't as if there were other things we

07:28did before that I mean there EPO is is is this hugely powerful drug but but there was you know we sort of uh call them gateway drugs. I mean if if ifo is you know is is the you know myth of of performance-enhancing drugs. I mean there's there's marijuana too. There's there's a lighter right sort of entry level stuff that like what was the entry what was the first stuff? Cortisone is is there and other that's just to relieve pain. Yeah. Or just Yeah. I mean it it is but it also works for for racing bikes. But how does it work for racing bikes? Um well it's such a strong anti-inflammatory that you with that you just feel inevitably you feel better whether it's physically you feel better a certain even just a a euphoria that comes with that that's you know and who knows what you know percent of it but at the same time you have you have a drug that um you know I love it when you when

08:26you know in cycling that if you took cortisone you you would be you would be banned. However, you know, you watch, you know, the NFL and and somebody gets gets banged up in the first half, they go in at halftime, they come out, you know, the announcer says they went in, they got a they got a cortisone injection, they'll they're going to play the second half, they rush for 100 yards, they win the game, they're hero. It's like, wait a second. Yeah. Like, so it is it is what it is. But it is weird. It's weird. what we we've talked about that a bunch of times with me and my friends like when you go to GNC or you know like the UFC has this company uh Muscle Farm which sells a bunch of supplements and things along those lines but yet they ban performance-enhancing drugs like what what do these supplements do? Well, they they enhance you some way, but it's like a certain

09:17level will will allow will allow a certain level of improvement, certain level of aid in recovery, but anything past that is cheating. Well, it's all performance enhance a nap a nap is performance-enhanced vitamin C, it's all so we know that. But but there also too has to be and I don't want to be critical of whether it's the UFC's efforts to to combat doping or or USADA or water or the anybody or any major sport. You have to draw the line somewhere and that's just and I get asked that all the time because people people get frustrated with the issue and it's they kind of throw their hands up and say, "Well, look, we should just it should just all be legal." And you know, they said that to me and they're thinking I'm going to go, "Yeah, you're right." But you you can't that's not the answer either. There has to be uh a structure in place. There has to be a

10:07line. It might that line might seem weird or fuzzy to people sometimes, but you you have to have something. Um and so, dude, it's tricky. I mean, anytime you mix uh athletes that are that are super motivated with um with money, with uh pressure that comes with that, temptation that comes with that, you know, people are for the rest of I mean, come on. I mean, the original Olympic games they were there were that was going on. So it's it's you have to think that it's going to happen forever. It the substances will change over time but um just unfortunately that's part of the game. So the original writers like way back in the early days of the to France before they had drugs they were using alcohol. You know there's all the there's a lot of stories about um whether it's alcohol, cocaine um I mean crazy substances but but at the same time you had guys the tour

11:04France is 100 years old, right? So uh doping is cheating. We know that. But there's other ways. I mean guys would hang on to cars. Guys would get in trains. Yeah, there were guys they would take a cork out of out of a wine bottle and they would put this is this is crazy. They would have fishing string in the cork, right? So wire it up and they would have it, you know, they'd have a car up the road and they'd put it in the nar. Oh my god. And it would be, you know, just a subtle pull. I mean, they they, you know, any way to get ahead. I mean, this is, you know, the the um the sport is just that's it's a brutal sport and uh you're not getting your face pounded in like UFC, but you certainly feel like you're getting your face pounded. Well, psychologically it's almost more devastating because it's so grinding when you're talking about something that goes three weeks and goes

11:54is it 2200 or 2500 miles? Is that what it is? About 2500. That's insane. That's an insane amount of time to be pushing your body. 100 miles a day. But once you get to the top level, it's remarkable how efficient it is. I mean, you have 200 guys going down the road on a normal day, if it's a flat day and there's not wind or crosswind um or rain or you know, the conditions, it's pretty easy to be honest. I mean, it's conversational. The final is tough and the final gets fast and people are competing for the stage win, but um it's not, you know, those three weeks aren't like three weeks on the line. I mean, on, you know, in the red line, are they? have to pace yourself. The the pelaton paces itself like the you know they sort of pace and police for for lack of a better word itself and when and obviously the mountains and the time trials right or where the race

12:45is decided and those are the hardest moments when they first started introducing uh things like um uh when they started using transfusions and things along those lines. How much of an improvement did it have on the times? Well, you know, it's it's it's hard to say because the times are, you know, people look at our era, they look at my generation and they say, "Okay, well, the times must be, you know, significantly faster." I mean, but you can't compare cycling to track and field or cycling to another sport that's had had a rough patch and is now trying to clean itself up because technology changes, road surfaces change, uh, obviously training has changed, but um, I mean, if you go back to the 84 games right here in Los Angeles, that was really the first major exposure you had for for transfusions. Um, which which the American team did and Rolling Stone

13:39exposed it. Um, and but a transfusion is just a was an old school EPO replaced that, right? Mhm. Because you had a transfusion is just adding red cells to your system which carries oxygen and and and gives you more oxygen. Then you had a drug came along that did that for you. So you didn't have to extract the blood. You didn't have to put it back in. It made it, you know, it made it a lot easier. And then when the test when they refined the EPO test and ultimately came up with it um uh then people went back to the old school system. So um and then came other ways to detect that through not so much through a test but just through what they call the biological passport. of just studying parameters in your blood whether it's reticulous sites or red cells or you know all of these things that that smart people can come up with test for that's it was more of a

14:32screening method to to to detect uh a transfusion. What's kind of up about all this is that you won the tour to France seven times. You obviously trained like a demon, pushed yourself to the limits. You beat everyone in the competition and they were all doing the same thing you were doing, right? Yet you're the one who's demonized and yet you're the one who takes all the grief for it. Yep. Yeah. And there's a situation that happens when you're involved. You're involving money, you're involving sponsors, you're invol when you once you first start once the ball starts rolling and the first deception has been launched out there into the ether. Yep. There's no way to take it back if you want to keep racing. Yep. And that's the thing. I mean, people look, I mean, my situ my story and and I I hear you loud and clear and and you can say that I can never say

15:32that, you know, when I when I if I were to say things like that, people would they would nuke me. But it is what it is. It is what it is. But that's Anyhow, um there was the doping, okay, which led to the lying, right? which led to the treatment of other people. I think by and large people can have the perspective that you have. They can say, "Look, looks to me like everybody did it." So, okay. Uh then they can look to the line and they that's where they really start to not like it. They say, "This guy lied to us repeatedly." But of course, you get, you know, my there's no defense to that. But if I could if I could share any personal insight, I mean, once you lie once, you just keep lying. You keep lying. It's not as if I'm going to sit here, you know, this is 15 years ago and Joe, you're a nice guy and you I mean, if I was on this podcast, I would have lied to your

16:20face a million times. Just so you know, I I would have just so you know, just so you know, but that's not a surprise to you or anybody else. But but once you're in there, it's not as if I'm going to go, you know, this this guy Joe seems like a really nice guy. I think I'm going to be real I'm going to be honest with him. Too much money. There's no way. You can't once that Yeah. So, I was I was stuck, for lack of a of a better word, in that uh in that that lie or that deception. But then the way that I took my competitive nature, which served me well in training and in racing and took it into the real world, took it into a press conference, took it into a personal relationship, took it into former teammates, uh my relationship with that, that's the part where people go, "Okay, this guy forever, right? He I'm done." And so um that you know you got sort of the three phases none of

17:12them are good but as it got further away um that um you know lack of respect for others is the thing that totally me. And you know to that I I I would I would say to anybody that I I understand and and I I may be in their timeout forever. Um, I have uh and the only thing I will add that that that may sound like I'm trying to defend myself is I've I've tried to make amends with all those people, right? The ones that we all know, the ones people talk about, I've traveled the world. I've sat with them. I've I've looked them in the eyes and said, "What I did was totally unacceptable and I'm sorry." Um, and almost everybody has accepted the apology and and we've moved on. Um, but that doesn't get to this this, you know, this crowd of people that that you can't sit with face to face and you can't say you're sorry. I mean, I can talk to you. We can talk about it. Some people may

18:08view that as an apology or or not, but but the ones that I could go sit with, I did. And that's all that I would add to that. And I and I and I I mean I'm proud that most of those people, and I say most, not everybody cuz not everybody's ready, but most of those people said, "You know what? We're good. We're done." And so, uh, if it was my son and he acted that way, first of all, I'd say, "What the are you doing? You You can't act that way." But I had nobody was standing over me going, "Dude, what are you what are you you're acting like an No, nobody did that." So, but if my son did that, I would say you get over there and you make it right with that person. So, that's where it is. And uh here we go. You're also in this bizarre position at the time to be the only famous cycler in the entire country. Cyclist. Cyclinger is not it. That's a cycler. Cycling drugs.

19:02A cyclist. Biker. But a biker is like Sons of Anarchy. And that's Yeah. Yeah. I kind of got burned out on that series, but um um yeah, a lot of weight to carry around. Yeah. And then there's the the cancer organization, Livstrong. There's a lot of weight you're carrying around. It was I speak to it all the time. I mean, it was it was a huge wave. But you're also balancing out so much good with this lie. And this lie is helping all this good. Like the Livestrong Foundation is generating hundreds of millions of dollars helping all these people with cancer. I've seen you in the hospitals with these kids and it makes me me having kids myself, it makes me cry seeing these kids with face masks on cuz their immune system so compromised and they don't have any hair and they're just devastated and you're hanging out with these kids and you you're generating all this positive energy for

19:54them, generating all this money, all this all this research that's being funded. So there's all this good as well. You start telling the truth, that stops. Well, we know what happens because it happened. Yeah, they did happen. It happened. And we know dried up. I don't see any of those bracelets anymore. Those goddamn things were everywhere. Yeah. Yeah, they were. We had a good run, man. 85 million bracelets. Yeah. But look, I mean, I don't want anybody to be mistaken. I My interests were selfish. I mean, I was uh uh um defending myself and protecting myself. Um, but at the same time, it wasn't just myself I was protecting. I was pro protecting the sport. I was protecting our sponsors. I was protecting the tour. I was protecting the foundation. Um, and you know, it's it's just hard to to say I'm going to I'm going to stop. And and and and what we just said, I mean, we now know on all

20:48of those things, right? We know what's happened to the foundation. We know what's happened to the sport. We know what's happened to the sponsor. We know we can now see. Um it was it was a devastating toll and um you know most would say well that's all your fault Lance and uh and and maybe they're right but uh it's it's been you know it it especially on the foundation side dude it just it breaks my heart to see that um the effect it's had um on their effectiveness. Well it's got to be way more complicated than it's just your all your fault. It's it's way it's it's way more complicated because when you're talking about an entire sport that's dirty, I mean, for lack of a better word, an entire sport that's being deceptive, an entire sport that's using these performance-enhancing drugs, and then you're talking about you because you're this weird outlier. You're this

21:42one guy who is incredibly successful at in a country where nobody gave a about the tour to France until you came along. I mean, this Greg Lemon you. Yeah. You know, I mean, this Yeah. I mean that's it. But this this is the I mean the story and the story being what it was a cancer survivor that comes back that wins this event that transcends the sport that brings the sport to cycling. Although Greg did do I mean a tremendous job um really that was like the first blow up of cycling in the United States. And then comes my story. I mean that's the story was so the story was too big right? I mean, and that's the reason that that uh you know, that incentivized and motivated people like uh like Nitzky and like the feds to come along and say, "Oh, 100% 100%." I mean, they're not they're not doing that to save the world. They're not doing that to save the children. No matter what ulterior

22:38motives that they might, you know, try to list as, well, we wanted to make sure that children don't do this. We wanted to send a great message. It's it's a high profile, high publicity avenue for them to achieve notoriety. Yeah. But but right and we we'll get into that. But the the you know my rivals so if you take you know my my main rivals whether it's Yan Olrich or Baso or Belloi or Pentani or you know their star factor for lack of a better phrase was just was just different and they you know they weren't cancer it wasn't so it it there was this disparity which the sport enabled there to be because it's just just kind of an old school janky sport in terms of the way it's um organized and run as a business. Um that It was like a, you know, like a South American economy. There was really the halves and the have nots. And uh that's a crazy way of putting it. Yeah. I mean,

23:32when when you have something like that, it it doesn't work. And so what you need to, you know, all of those ships need to rise with that sea and and um I probably didn't do a good enough job uh trying to push for that in my in my time. Um but don't you have only a certain amount of resources? I mean, one of the things that I've always said about extreme winners is uh there's there's a borderline between greatness and madness, and it crosses back and forth. Yeah. I always say that greatness and madness are nextdoor neighbors, and they borrow each other's sugar cuz there's almost no way you can get that good without almost losing your mind. Yeah. Right. I've met some people that are fantastic at things, the great ones. I've met great ones, especially great fighters, and they're all crazy. Yeah. It's almost like you can't you can't not be cuz every you can't be a

24:23regular guy and get there, right? I probably wasn't. Yeah, I probably still am a little crazy. Oh, you're crazy. I can tell. You're definitely crazy. No, but I don't I I don't think you're bad. I don't think you're a bad guy. I mean, I don't know you that well, but I I I just think you have to have that that sharpness. You have to have that that grit. You have to have that aggressive competitive nature in order to succeed, especially in some thing where everyone's doing the same thing. There's not a lot of creativity involved. There's not a lot of uh the variables. You're pushing yourself. Pushing yourself. You're pumping your legs. That's it. You can't, you know, you can't fake to the left and go to the right. You can't throw up some new move that no one's ever seen before. You're you're you're pushing yourself. Yeah, you definitely had some of those. But at the end of the day,

25:09you're on a bike and everybody else is on a bike and you're going up the goddamn same hill, right? And there and there were no secrets. Right. That's the that that concentrates down what the competitive nature is to like the edge. Who's got the sharper edge? Who's more intense? And you getting He's getting riled up. I get riled up, dude. Dude, I'm I'm going to step back. Don't Don't Don't jump across this table. I mean, isn't that I got a big old kettle bell over here that I'm going to swing at you if you come over here. Just settle down. Isn't that what it is, though? I mean, that has to be what it is. It's the only way to win. Yeah. It's it's an endurance event, so you have to be a little careful with that. But there are those moments where you just have to unleash everything you have and you can unleash them in training or in racing and Yeah. but yes, that seems like a

25:55really good point where you just brought that up is there's you have to be careful with that. You have to know when to put like how you have to know your body like really intimately as far as and you have to manage it over the course of many many say the marathon. I mean nobody takes off and you know like it's a 100 yard dash. I mean, you have to manage you obviously you have the experience of knowing what that effort is going to look and feel like and you know how to manage all of that but yeah I mean you it three weeks long man you got to be you got to be careful. Yeah. Is there a moment where you remember like during a race where you wanted to push but you had to back down like there was is there moments where you like you're managing it? Well, yeah. Where you feel like I just this is not a smart thing to go and you want and you know now you can I mean when we race you know

26:48well in the old days people just trained and they they thought well I'm going to go hard today and I'm going to go easy tomorrow right and then it came the heart rate monitor and they you know followed their heart rate and they man you know they managed their training and racing through that and then came the power meters and then so now there's all these you know there there are these devices where you can really monitor all of that stuff and so you're out there you're not just sort driving around blind. I mean, you actually can see what you're doing and you and that makes managing that effort a lot easier. What is it? What are the differences in numbers? Like if you go back to like a hundred years ago, well, assuming that people weren't using cork screws and or corks and fishing line and whatever other ways they were cheating. Yeah. Like what what is like a a realistic

27:30difference between the the early days of winning and today? You have to look at modern cycling. I mean, you have to look at when when, you know, the bike basically got to the, you know, the bikes and the wheels and these things got to where they are today. And um, you know, they're uh I mean, they're fast now. These guys are fast. And that's, you know, two things have happened. Number one, my story uh got exposed. And so then people question everybody, whether it's Chris Froom, who won the tour to France this year or somebody that wins the world championships, they question them because of me. And then they say, "Okay, well, you know, he's dirty. Seems like everybody's dirty, so you must be dirty." And then they go to the times, right? They look at they look at uh they look at my times in the tour to France or they look at the Pelaton's times and they see now that the times

28:17are actually either the same or better. So they say, "Well, then of course that that that supports my argument that you're dirty." You know, well, if it's f I mean, I don't know. I mean, it it I don't have the answer to that. And I and I you know, I get asked all the time what's going on now or what's I said. I have no idea. I mean, I'm so far removed from cycling that I have no earthly idea of what's going on or not going on. But I don't think it's necessarily fair to to blame those guys. I don't I understand it, but um you know, I mean, you could have these athletes might be a lot better. The training might be a lot better. I do think technology, the bikes, the wheels, even road surfaces are a lot better. And is there is there any part of you that's kind of pissed off that there are performance-enhancing drugs? Like if there was nothing and if it just had to be mono amano same

29:09result, you would have the same result. I would have the it is my belief that that the results would be the same. They would be a few seconds slower or whatever whatever it would be. It doesn't matter if the overall time's slower. What matters is is is if you were five minutes ahead of the next guy. That's what matters. That's what matters. Um I I that's my belief, but there are others that don't hold that belief. There are others that say no. I mean doping affects other individuals differently and you know you you wouldn't have you might have won two or you might have won none. Um well that means is some people weren't doping correctly. But look at once you're doping if you're doping and the other guys doping better than you, like well then you're not doing your job doping. You know, you're not being a good competitive doper. No, he's not like Bill. But I mean that's really what it

29:55is, right? I mean, doesn't it make sense? It's it gets complicated and we would talk forever and and and people would argue with us forever about that. So, yeah, but I, you know, they're not here, you know. I mean, just Oh, they are. They're listening. Oh, they're here. But my perspective is is really clear on that. I mean, I think if you have a sport where everybody's, you know, and we were both talking about the the Bill Burr thing that he did on Conan, which is like, yeah, our psychopath is better than your psychopath, you know, like that's that's really what it is. You you can't say that. I mean, how could they take away This is one of the things that drove me the craziest about this. Like, what did they do with the seven years where you won where they said you're not the winner anymore? Well, who the won it then? That's And how do you how do you find the guy who won it? Joe, that's

30:44that's that's a problem. What's in the record books now? It's empty. Empty. Empty. So that's it's empty for seven years. Yeah. Yeah. That's ridiculous. And and look, I you you I agree with you, but you can say that. I cannot say that. All I will say is that I don't I don't think it's far be it for me to talk about what's fair or not fair, but I don't think it's fair for the sport to leave those empty. I I think that's crazy in in compare and contrast. So in the tour, you have the yellow jersey, who's the guy who wins. You have the polka dot jersey, who's the who's technically the best climber, and then you have the green jersey, who's technically the best sprinter. Those seven years were the green jersey was worn by Zabel, who who admitted to having doped all seven of those years. The polka dot jersey was was was worn by Verank from France, who admitted to having doped all those

31:36years. Those all stand. Everything's still there. That's hilarious. But the yellow jersey has been erased. You know, second place, third place, all those places are still there. The years, you know, the years prior to me where somebody was either had admitted or was caught. All still there. So there's just an asterisk in first place. If you go to Wikipedia, it's just there's just a line through it. Yeah. That's so strange. So it that's the word, man. It's str it's very strange and it's strange for me and and it makes me it makes me sad cuz um I mean look I'm going to be honest I believe I won the races. Um and I think well no you did win the races. No you won the races whether it's the people to ask are the ones that got beat. Yeah. So if you ask them right if you ask Yan if you ask Zula if you ask u below if you ask any of them they say he won those bike races. And

32:31so, man, it it it Do you still have those yellow jerseys in your house or do you have to give them back? No. Good them. She put up an Instagram picture of him every day. That was Yeah, that Yeah, I'm not going to put that picture up again. But that was a great picture though, of you chilling on the couch with seven yellow jerseys on your wall. I got I got nuked for that one. Well, you're going to get nuked no matter what you do. Look, but I but I I I look, I mean, they're up. Yeah, they're up. And uh and and I'm proud of them. I really am. And I'm proud of And that's the thing, too, is that as weird as it is and as strange as it is that there's just a line through those years as if they did not happen. Yeah. Um man, I I had I was paid to do a job, right? As messy as the job was, whatever, I was paid to do it and I did it. Uh and I wanted to win. I wanted to capture those

33:23memories for myself and for my teammates. And you can't, nobody can take those away from me. I still hold those memories to myself. And um yeah, it's it's it's had a complicated ending, but um you know, I still view those as victories and I still view those memories as good. The carrying around the lie and being interrogated and questioned and was that the hardest part about all of it? you know, I was I was only interrogated or questioned w with the press and and even um you know, God, if it would have been in this day and age with with with Twitter and Facebook and social media and uh it would have it would have been a thousand times worse. I mean, this was, you know, I mean, this was in the in the late 90s. I mean, think about that. That was a long time ago. And so, the level of scrutiny, while it was high, wasn't nearly as high as it would have been today. Um

34:21but yeah, I mean once you dig in, you know, with these with these guys, you're stuck. So once you finally came clean, I mean obviously there was a lot of blowback, but was there also a relief? Um not not immediately. Not immediately. I mean, I uh I get asked that a lot. And I think people um people people expect me to say, "Well, you know, it was just this it was this this huge relief off your shoulders when you when you talked to Oprah or you or whatever you did that that you can now move forward and live the life of an honest man and etc., etc." But it's taken me, let me just sum it up. I mean, sitting here today having this conversation, I would much prefer to have this conversation than the one where I would have lied to your face 15 times 10 years ago. I'd much rather us talk like this. So, that's that's a relief. Um, but it but it, you know, it's not like I walked out of

35:19sitting with Oprah and was like, "Oh my god, I feel amazing." That was that was an ass whapon. And and uh so what's it like sitting there with Oprah? She's asking, she's drilling you, asking you questions. How about that start? She came out hot. Yeah, she came out hot. Yes or no? She only wanted yes or no. Yeah, I thought I thought, you know, I thought she did a good job. She did a great job. I thought she did a good job. I thought it was very compelling. Y cuz the way she structured the beginning part of the conversation. Yeah. Especially if you're going to do something like that on television, you want to capture people and keep them there. You kind of have to approach it that way. I I thought she did a good job. I I I don't I know that it wasn't wellreceived and I and I I And in what way? You mean people didn't like you afterwards in that way? It wasn't well

36:06received. Well, I think there's two things. Number one, I I wasn't emotionally ready to do that interview. I wasn't uh I wasn't in a place where uh I think that I sit today where it's it's it is a position of contrition and understanding the tremendous sense of betrayal that's out there. like my perception of that today is much sharper than it was three years ago when I sat with her. The feds and other lawsuits forced my hand. I had to sit there with that because I knew I was going to be sitting ei leaked. So, I said, "Well, I'm gonna go I'm gonna find the place that I'd rather sit down and talk about this as opposed to a grainy video that the government leaks to the world." And that's your coming out party. So, I I did that. But the the thing about Oprah is is aside from me just not being ready at the time to do it, you know, people sensed that. But most importantly, for

37:09the diehard cycling fans and sports fans, I didn't say enough. You didn't name names. you didn't you didn't call anybody out. You you wasn't detailed enough. You're holding back. You're protecting people. That's what they said. That's a very small percentage of the population. For the majority of the population, those first five minutes was way too much information. They were like, "What the did I just hear?" Like blood bags, EPO, testosterone, transfusions, cheating. It was way too much. So you had people that were one camp, a smaller camp said, "He didn't say enough. He's he's holding back here." The other camp was like, "All right, that's that's more than I needed to hear." And so everybody was pissed. Well, I don't know why they would think it's too much. I mean, I don't know. I I don't understand that logic because it is reality. You're a grandma in Duth,

38:00right? And and you and you supported the cancer survivor. Santa Claus isn't real. Yeah. And and you hear that. I mean, you're sitting there going, "Uh-uh. I don't I don't like anything about this. So the So I see because they were also supporting Livstrong and they were also supporting Survivor. How much of an effect did it have like almost immediately on your foundation? I don't know because I was asked to leave the foundation before that and so and I haven't been back so I don't know and I'm not and I don't ask. Is it still around? Yeah. Yeah. But it it must have taken a devastating hit. I think so. I mean it takes a hit in terms of uh obviously in terms of fundraising which directly leads to its you know its effectiveness in terms of helping create change for cancer survivors all around the world. You need to raise money in order to do that. Um staff layoffs uh I

38:56mean you name it. I mean it it's uh but but I don't I don't have specifics because once I left the board and left the organization and they legally changed the name uh I mean I don't know it none of it was shocking to me. Um I mean I knew I didn't know but I knew that every I I have a friend who is a professional cycler just say his name is John cyclist. Cyclist. Sorry. We're going to get this right. Let me Okay, people. I'm going to write it down. Cyclist. cycling 101 cyclist. He's a biker. That's why people say the ultimate fighting challenge, it's championship. Um, and see, I would say that Yeah. challenge. Okay. My friend John was a professional cyclist. Y and uh this was uh 200 maybe three three four and um he told me he was like, "Listen, man. We were all we're all on it." He goes, "Guys would get off the bus in the middle of the night. You'd hear them

39:54taking off their bikes and going for a ride because their blood got too thick. There are those old stories. Yeah, that's from EPO, right? It that's uh Yeah, I've heard those stories. I I never I never saw that. But well, so my friend John I mean maybe he was on a crazy team or something like that, but back in the day. No, that before they got it dialed in. Well, what they what happened was is there was no test, right? So no sport had a test whether it's cycling or swimming or running boxing or who whatever sport is using EPO they didn't have a test for EPO and so they uh and with you know one of the side effects of EPO or you know or increasing your red cell count is your blood it's it's literally a question of viscosity right so your oil motor oil yeah that's the only time you ever think of the word viscosity right is your motor oil but more red cells means

40:44thicker blood too if your blood's too thick we know what happens it's not it isn't a good thing. And so the sport had to go to they couldn't test for it. The the the science wasn't there yet. So they went to these sort of preventative screening methods, right? So then they started testing the viscosity or the thickness of people's bloods, otherwise known as hematocrit, right? Um and and so that would they would use that as a screen. Anybody above 50% hematocrit couldn't race. You weren't positive. You didn't get banned, but you were put on the side for two weeks as a as a health measure. Anyone under 50% was fine to race. So everybody took that as I mean before that there were people that were 60 64%. Those guys might be getting up in the middle of the night going for a little spin. Yeah. But at 50, you know, they deemed that sort of the healthiest level, you know, but people pushed it

41:34right up to 50 then. There's and there's some side effects and there's some possible potential health risks as far as like strokes and things along those lines, right? Sure. Did anybody that was on the tour ever drop dead from EPO? Well, there there's there there was, you know, look, there there I don't know. I mean, there are a lot of documented cases, especially in the 80s, right? When EPO, I guess, was first hitting the scene, there was this wave of Dutch cyclists that passed away in in the night. And, you know, in the night, huh? In their sleep. And that's probably when it would happen. Well, I I don't I mean, I I I didn't do the I didn't do the autopsy and you know, nobody I don't know if anybody's ever proven that, but that that sort of um I don't want to say that was the myth, but that was uh that EPO, the drug, took the blame for those deaths.

42:25And so, it hasn't happened since and it didn't happen uh in, you know, in our generation, but I don't know. But my point being that it it is it it can be fairly dangerous. Well, if well, if your blood Yeah, you can imagine if it gets too thick. So, that that that would not be one one of the things that it did it it didn't surprise me that when you came clean, uh I was like, well, good for him. That was really what I thought. I was like, it's kind of up that he was lying all this time. And it's kind of up that he was suing people that were saying that he was telling lies. And but one of the things that shocked me the most when I was thinking about it was that you you had recovered from cancer. You had one of your testicles removed. You had brain surgery. You had lung cancer. I mean, your your body was ravaged by this and yet you still were taking drugs. Y that's that's what got

43:23me. I was like that what a crazy desire to win that you you got to this place where your body was, you know, you were on death's door and recover from it and then put yourself back in risk. Yeah. I mean, yeah, saying it like that, it it it there's no there's no justifying that other than I was in this sport that that I really wanted to to to be in and stay in and and after the disease, I wanted to go back to and that was the that was the landscape. And so you viewed it, you thought, okay, u this is not ideal, but you asked the question, what am am I really, you know, having knowing my health history, right, with cancer, with all the all that I went through, is going back to my sport and taking EPO a risk to that to that, you know, to my to to my disease or to my health? Um, and I and the answer to that, obviously, my answer to myself was no. You really

44:24didn't think that it was a risk to push your body like that and and to put all these I mean they're you know they're they're they're in a lot of ways they're pushing your body in an unnatural way or to an unnatural level testosterone and human growth hormone and EPO and all these and that's the only really and that's the only difference that that was made was I mean I had a slight experience with growth hormone before the disease and then after after the diagnosis and the treatment and the recovery. I said, "Okay, that that that does not sound like a good idea because it's too dangerous." Yeah. And and perhaped up way, I was thinking, "Well, that would lead to the growth of uh of, you know, a malignant cell, etc., etc." So, um, but I I didn't view those two the same. Plus, I don't I don't think HGH is for cycling. I don't think it's very effective anyways. I think it's a

45:22waste. Did you alter your diet? Well, for sure. Yeah. But what what changes did you make when you uh when you came back from having cancer, man? I was and again this is the stuff that we can talk I talked about forever and you know and it's almost sort of mocked now you know cuz we talked about the change in diet and the increased you know intensity of training and the reconnaissance and the technology and the wind tunnel and we did all of those things and they all worked you know but it I say they're mocked now because people now know the truth we all know the truth and people say oh he told us it was all that other he told us it was the training he told us it was his diet well now we know it It's just the doping. Um, well, it wasn't though. It was the doping end. That was the la that was the final piece. Yeah. Which just was unfortunately and it was, as

46:10we've said numerous times, it's just an it was unfortunate and it was inevitable. Um, but that was the the final piece and the and it was also the piece that we never talked about. Of course. Right. Of course. Yeah. See, this is the weight you're carrying around. I'm When I'm asking you about your diet, I literally didn't know that you had discussed this ad nauseium. Yeah. So, you're you're carrying this around. And you're always assuming that people if you look at if you look at me racing in '96 before I was diagnosed and then you look at me winning the tour in 99. I mean this 20 pounds difference. Mhm. So I mean I went man I had this when I got out of uh sort of my cancer mission you know and and recovered and took a year and a half away and went back. I I view I I I mean I viewed racing bikes as life life and death. I viewed it I viewed my disease as a as a

46:58competitive event as a sporting event. It's me versus the opposition looking at the scoreboard. How we doing? And then when I got to uh when I got back on the bike, it was it was it was like life and death. And so everything was intensified. Starving yourself, training your ass off, just being, as you said a minute ago, just being generally totally crazy for for a result. Mad. Not not mad, but madness. You were starving yourself to be lighter. Yeah. We That's part of it. I mean, you know, these poor guys now, I mean, they're they're a lot skinnier than we were. I mean, this is guys riding five, six hours a day and not eating. I mean, it just it sucks. How do they do it? You don't eat. This just just deal with it. Just go to bed hungry. Wow. Just keep your body weight light. It's all power to weight. I wish you were still I I wish I would like to know what the these guys are doing now. I

47:52would like to know when you see guys with faster times and really ridiculously stringent drug testing. Yeah. And well, anytime I go anywhere near that, I just get I just get destroyed because um I don't know the the people view it as as me accusing them. I mean, I've I've made because I get I got a lot of questions. So, I'll tweet back say, "Don't ask me. I have no idea." You know, people take that as saying, "Well, he just he just blamed them. He just accused them of doing the same shit." And I feel bad for those guys, man. I feel I feel bad for any top level rider that that is racing their bike in 2015 and has to answer questions about a guy from 1999. Like, if I was winning in 99, what is that 16 years? If somebody asked me a question about somebody from 1983, I said, "What the are you talking about? Don't ask me that question." Like, why are you asking me about some

48:44dude 20 years ago? Well, I'm here today. So, but it's Well, that's the craziest thing about you in the sport. Like, you're inexerably tied to it. There's no way to pull it away from you. Like, that scandal was one of the at least in the United States is one of the biggest aspects of that sport ever. It's still I mean it any any story that gets written. I mean, you saw I don't know if you follow track and field or all of the stuff that came out of Ben Johnson. That's all. That's the old old story. But but there's there was just this revelation that came out of International Track and Field and the Russian Federation and the covers up there and all of those stories that get written, whether it's on Dead Spin or the New York Times or on TW, they all reference this story as well. So you get put back, which is I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing, but it it

49:32just it it brings people back to that, you know, to my history. Yeah. It's like it's baseball and Barry Bonds. It's just they're they're tied. There's just no way they're gonna you're gonna separate the two of them together. Yeah. It's it's it's got to be a very bizarre thing for those people that are racing. Ask them. Yeah. You should I don't want to ask. Nobody knows who they are. That's the most up thing about it. It's like you're like I mean in a way like Tony Hawk is the only skateboarder I have ever heard of. It's the only I mean I'm sure I've met a few other ones but I don't I don't remember their names. But Tony Hawk is that guy. Like you think of skateboarding, you think of Tony Hawk. You think of bike racing, you think of Lance Armstrong. And now that you think of swimming, you think of Michael Phelps. Yeah. This is Yeah. There's just a few. Well, Greg

50:20Lemon is a diver. You think of him. I guess he's kind of a swimmer, but there's not Greg Lam. What's the other guy? Greg Greg Luganis. Sorry, dude. I'm don't pay attention. At least you said cyclist. I did. I'm getting better. Greg Lugana. Reg Lamont's probably like, "What the fuck?" Yeah. Um there's just It's weird when you have a sport that's where the public locks on to one person and they don't know any of the other people in it. Like if it's football, there's like hundreds of guys with boxing, who hundreds of guys. But with cycling, there's just so few. and you carrying the weight of that sport in the United States and trying to popularize it as well as uh holding on to this lie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Don't Yeah. I mean it I mean that when I hear you say that I mean it it it and you may not be defending me, but it sounds as if you're defending me. So I don't I don't

51:20necessarily want that. I mean I I don't I'm not defending you. Right. What I'm doing is I'm trying to illuminate reality in a pretty objective way. Well, you can Yeah. do that on your next podcast because me sitting here right now, people It makes you uncomfortable. No, it doesn't make me uncomfortable, but I I I'm I'm of the belief that nobody wants to hear that that there's still I I I think people are upset. I know they're upset. So, um some people do. I mean, look, you're going to have people that are upset. Well, I think what we're dealing with when it comes to the internet is just a gigantic number of people. There's too many people to like say some people want this, some people. You can't you can't manage it. Hundreds of millions of people who can get on their Facebook or get on their Twitter and just start giving their input right now. And that's

52:01never happened before. And when that happens, you're going to be understandably sensitive to the outcome. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. What was the blowback like? Like when you when you did the Oprah thing and then you just went out into the public, did you just try to lay low for a while? Yeah, I tried to Well, there was there were several uh variations of quote unquote blowback. There was just the public's perception. So, if I walked down the street, which I have I have to admit was was better than I expected, right? People, nobody It's not as if I left talking with Oprah and I walked out on the street and you know, people were throwing at me. I mean, that just that's never happened. Could happen one day, but it hasn't yet. There's the blowback, which is the most important part, which is the way my kids were treated. You know, I've got five kids, three older ones. Um, you know, I

52:51was very concerned with what they heard in the hallways. You know, what they what they saw on their social media stuff. Um, you know, what what is what does that news do to them? That is the most important thing. And a real credit to the city of Austin and the schools that they go to and and our community and their friends and the kids in the school. Very little blowback. So, that was for me that was that was like the biggest relief. Like people can throw at me and say all day long, but if my kids were treated roughly, I mean that would just that would break your heart, wouldn't it? I mean devastating. Yeah, that'd be the by far the worst. So that was um that was very fortunate that that that was not seamless. I mean, there was some stuff, but they managed it and we managed it and the community managed it pretty well. And then there was the legal blowback which was uh which was pretty

53:41nasty. I mean, I I got as soon as I stepped off the stage with Oprah, call it a stage. Um, the lawsuit just piled up. I mean, and piled up big. And how many of them are still ongoing right now? Just one. Just one. One, the federal government one, the federal case. And the federal case, but they were but there were and some of them were were were highly publicized. Uh, and some were not. um the the the problem the team was uh ensuring all of my salaries and all of my bonuses unbeknownst to me and so cuz they didn't have the money and so when this goes down all of these companies came back and said where's our money and I said well who are you I said well so the team I knew about one situation right the big one the SCA case which uh which has been settled since but there were many many others and some were public some were private um but they all had to get settled and so we've

54:36navigated that landscape and now we're just down to the postal case, the federal case. And when is that going to be resolved? Um, that's a good question. It's it's been going on a long time. Uh, and it came on the heels of a two or threeyear criminal investigation, which you're well aware of through through Jeff Nitzky and through the US attorney's office here in Los Angeles. So once that case was closed, then the civil division picked up the postal case and it's been ongoing for years and and you know, we've sort of finished that first phase of litigation and it'll go to trial maybe a year from now. I in Washington DC. Well, we we talked about this very briefly before the podcast. We wanted to kind of save it for the podcast. I don't understand the criminal investigation. I don't understand the allocation of resources towards someone who was bike racing. I feel like in a

55:26world where we have bankers that caused this gigantic 2008 financial collapse, where we have pharmaceutical companies are making billions of dollars getting people hooked on Oxycontton, when we have crime and murder and all the problems we have in this culture. To spend taxpayers dollars on bike racing, a guy who may have cheated or definitely cheated in a a sport where everybody's cheating. Yep. That seems kind of up. Well, you can It's McCarthyism. I mean, you can have uh First of all, cyclists don't have any lobbyists. Nobody's out protecting us. What whatever we did or didn't do in Europe 20 years ago. The banks do, big pharma does, etc., etc. So, that's kind of a good old boy club that that we're not a part of. But, and and we've talked about this offline. I mean, when you when you have a federal agent in in a guy like Nitzky who's who's has made his career with these

56:25types of cases, whether it's Balco or Bonds or Marian Jones, um uh when you have a guy like that that that all of a sudden is interested, it's going to happen. you know that and and when you have that, you know, particular agent or any agent that walks in to uh interview a witness or interview an old teammate with a badge and a gun, they're talking. Yeah, it gets weird, right? Different kind of investigation. Yeah, it's So, of course, you I mean, I know I heard what you said. Of course, I don't think it makes much sense, but I'm I I was at I was in the crosshair, so people are going to say, "Well, of course you don't think it makes sense." But um look, I mean uh and I and I listened to your to your podcast with with Nitzky and uh I mean there just there's some in there. And so what specifically? Um you know, I think the idea that that uh and I and again I'm not I I don't

57:28work for the government. and I don't work for the US attorney's office here, but I think the idea that he was brought into the investigation. I I don't know this that that's necessarily true. I I I think um I I think and again, I don't know, Jeff, but I think he went I think he looked for those cases. I mean, he and and whether or not and by the way, when you're an agent for the Food and Drug Administration, I I don't know how I mean, all of these things have missions. He was, you know, he was an agent for the IRS. And so then that's when Balo and Bond started. I don't I don't know that doping in baseball is an IRS issue. I don't know that doping and cycling 20 years ago is an issue for the FDA. I mean, they regulate who makes aspirin and who gives you your lettuce and your eggs and what does that have to do with But I think he I think he was opportunistic when it came to uh these

58:17cases, whether it's Barry Bonds or myself. Um and and and you know, he thrived on that. Well, I think you look at it two ways. in one on one hand, he certainly capitalizes on these high-profile cases. He certainly goes after them. Um, on the other hand, him capitalizing and being the the rapid investigator that he is, it highlights the issues that are going on. Sure. So, the I think the real problem is the allocation of money, like how much money is being spent on these cases. You know, he told me that the Barry Bonds case that they only spent like $100,000. I didn't I I didn't expect that from I didn't question them and I didn't research it beforehand. I didn't I didn't know that that was even going to come up. But then once I did research it, it seems like it was a fuckload more money than $100,000. Yeah. Well, that's that's obviously that's laughable, but

59:12um whatever the number was, it it it you know, it wasn't 100,000, but it was it was probably not as much as what was reported. Um, but hey, that's uh that's the United States of America. That's what they that's what they get to do. And also, you get a guy like him and that's how these issues get highlighted. I mean, that's why we know about it because he was so aggressive in his tactics. He was so aggressive in chasing down anybody that he thought was doing these drugs. That's why we know about these cases in such an extreme detail. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, man. And it was it was it was it was uh it wasn't pleasant watching that or listening to that podcast. I mean it and the fact that I don't know if you're bullshitting me or not. The fact that he wanted to do the podcast with me. Oh, he did? Yeah. He asked to do it. What kind of crazy is that? Well, I think he wanted to find

60:06out like how he felt about it, what what it feels like now. You know, he wants to I mean it he's ongoing. I mean, he works right now doing drug investigations for the UFC, and he's done a fantastic job to the point where, as I was telling you before the podcast, we've seen radical changes in fighters physiques and their performances. Guys have like guys who are world beaters have dropped off substantially. There's the the word in the mixed martial arts community when I talk to fighters, when I talk to trainers, it's had a gigantic impact and they're terrified because they've imposed these very strict uh fines and uh probationary periods. Yeah. And and as you also said before the podcast, I mean, you have a sport where, you know, the bigger and stronger you are physically, the more you're pummeling somebody else's head in. Yes. Is different. Is different. Yeah. It's

60:57different than baseball. It is definitely different. I think it's much more it's much more important. Is the sport just as exciting? It's pretty damn exciting. It's hard to say if it's just as exciting or not because I think there's a lot of great fighters who are world champions who are clean. Okay. It's just uh it's like some of the all-time greats. I mean, there's great guys right now. Frankie Edgar, clean as a whistle. Chris Wyman, very clean. Rock Hold clean. Who's the new champion in the middleweight division? There's a lot of great fighters that are clean. It's uh um it's hard to tell. There's a lot of fighters who weren't clean, who were awesome when they weren't clean. Vtor Belelffort who uh went on this wild run for like at 36 years old when he uh they they had this is one of the problems, one of the big problems with the UFC was that they had legal

61:47testosterone replacement for a short period of time for a few years and guys were just juicing to the tits, you know, like it was Skittles. Oh, they would come back with these hyperhuman levels. Like they would test them and you know like a normal person in your testosterone level would be like uh a low three, a high 800. Vtor was like,40075 and he looked like a silverback. Wow. And just hyper aggressive, super confident. That's different, you know. That's that's dangerous. And winning and beating guys to to, you know, to a pulp, right? That's uh it's that's a different situation. It's a, you know, you're not talking about an extreme endurance sport like that, like that kind of aggression and explosion wouldn't benefit you in cycling because it's such a long endurance race. And also the the benefit isn't the the end result isn't someone someone's health doesn't get compromised

62:42by it. Yep. Yeah. So, yeah. So, I mean, that's I don't know that sport that well and and I don't know what people's feeling are in and amongst the sport. I mean, you just gave a pretty good perspective on it. Uh, more power to him there. It's just a It's messy to pull it out. It's messy because it was so pervasive. It's like if they had figured out it's if if the tour if half the guys were clean and half the guys were dirty, the tour to France and then they figured out how to pull the drugs out from half. It would be messy, right? Cuz then it would be like, "Okay, well, why what happened? Why were these guys doing so well and now they're not? the guys who are winning or not winning. But if they the tour seems like it's so pervasive that if they pull the drugs out the same guys would be winning the times would be slower. But but what happened what happened was primarily I guess through

63:37through Nitzky's investigation which which when was closed he more or less handed everything to USAD. USADA picked up the investigation and and then they acted. They gave me the lifetime ban that left the like when the world reads that in 2012. It was the summer of 2012. The world reads that. The impression is or when I do Oprah for example, which is 3 or four months later, the impression is that we were hanging a blood bag 6 months ago. Like it's a current event. It feels although it had been it had been seven years before any line had ever been crossed ever even during the comeback. So but it made it current. The comeback made it current for people. Nitzky investigating uh getting everybody to speak u through his own tactics. Um it made it a current event when it when it really it really wasn't. It's like it's like u I remember sitting there in 2012 thinking all right this

64:35shit's going down. This is this is unbelievable. Being in the middle of it, being me, this is unreal. And I thought, you know, and and we're talking about 1999 through 2005, but let's use 99 as an example. I remember thinking to myself, who won the Super Bowl in 99 and it was the Broncos and Elway was the MVP. I remember thinking to myself, what if I opened the paper today and and the NFL has opened a case against John Elway in 2012? I would have read that and gone, this is a joke, right? Is it April Fools? Like what the you isn't like an old guy who stands on the sideline now? Like so it just they were able to go way way back and and and sidestep and ignore any sort of due process and statute of limitations and and they made it a current event. I'm not I'm not blaming them or defending myself. I'm just telling you what happened. And um you know that you know this not totally

65:30accurate but well it's because it it it was so long. It it it went on for so long. Like I remember they they had that Nike commercial when that Nike commercial when you were doing that Livstrong Nike Nike commercial and you you're riding your bike and you're talking about people calling you a doper. This is before you had come clean. That was in 2000. Yeah. And you this is this is before you'd never failed any tests. There was not, but you still had to address it in a Nike commercial. Yeah. So, this was this was something that was that was ill advised. Yeah. It seems now, right? But that's again, I mean, all of this, whether it's agreeing to that commercial or the way you treated I needed, you know, somebody in my life to go, I I I just read this script or this storyboard, and I think that's a real bad idea. Yeah. Did you have anybody like that in your life? Well, clearly

66:22not. But did anybody suggest it? No. No one. But no, but but I was. But isn't that hard though because you're such a winner. You're like you're on top of the world. Nobody wants to say, "Hey, man, don't do that." Dude, it's like when you're When you're in that position, nobody Everybody's saying yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's a great idea. Yes, Lance. Yes. Absolutely. Right now. Yes. Nobody's sitting there playing the devil's advocate or saying I think that's a bad idea. There's I didn't have that north star, man. And and again, I'm not the buck stops with me, man. It it I should have been mature enough and worldly enough to go bad idea. Let's make another commercial or bad idea, Lance. Let's say something else in the next press conference. But it seems like the the weight of it all and the air of it all was so thick that you kind of had to address it all the time cuz it was

67:14being thrown at you all the time. I was I peripherilally watched cycling peripherally and I knew about it. Everyone knew about it. But but it but the more defensive I became and the more aggressive I became in the denials all that does right is what but it might appease some people or supporters go did you I I heard it in his voice. I believe that. But what it really did, especially with the press, was it just it it just made the next occasion, the next question, the next episode even more inevitable. Like it just it added fuel to that fire. Like I, you know, looking back in hindsight, I should have just said like, I'm not going to not going to talk about it or or whatever the answer was. But instead of saying, you know, it was literally like finger in your chest. you. Don't ask me that. I mean, that is when you're guilty. That's a real bad approach, right? And it's the

68:12one that I took and quite honestly it it's, you know, probably one of the main reasons that that we're sitting here today talking about this. Why do you think you took that approach when looking back on it? Because I because that is the approach that I took in training and in racing and even I mean these are guys that I raced against that I liked, but I would make up reasons to hate them. Like I'd read something, I'd be like, "Look at this Did you read what he I He probably didn't even say anything. I'd take it and be like, I can't believe he said just his fuel, just his motivation." So that's all fine and good when you're training and you're racing and you're competing. But when you step off the bike, that you have to have that switch to say, "Okay, that's been done. You won the don't we're not going to go treat another human being that way, right? And in just a in a

69:00professional context or in a press context, you got to turn it off, man." And I couldn't like I was I had my finger in people's chest on the bike, off the bike, everywhere. And so my bad, dude. I mean, I I I didn't have the the ability to turn that off. I mean, it's good to be a competitor, but it's not good to be too competitive. And once you starting to once you took that approach, once you started with that approach, did you feel like there was like a weight of momentum behind you? Like to dig your heels in and stop it and try a new approach would be very difficult. Well, yeah. Once once it gets rolling, it's it's tough to tough to to alter. What was it like with the people that you were close to? Obviously, the people that you trained with, they knew what you were doing, but what about your family and your close friends? How many of them were aware of what was going on?

69:52I think, you know, by and large, I don't know. I wouldn't have asked them and they wouldn't have asked me. I think it was sort of this. So, your friends never Hey, man. Come here. I think it's more don't ask. They never pulled you aside. Don't ask, don't tell. Really? Yeah. Because they probably, you know, they probably didn't they didn't want to know. Do you have close friends outside of cycling? Yes. And they didn't ask you? Yeah. Well, no, they didn't. But really? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they might also ride bikes, so they're not in the sport, but Right. But yeah, nobody sort of said up at the bar was like, "Dude, come on. Love you." Really? Yeah. No one. No. Wow. That's crazy. If I was your friend, dude, I would have got you up. I was just going to say, "Oh, we got you drunk." Like, come on, dude. We're going on a hike. Yo, Joe Joe would be talking about it now. He's

70:38like, I remember that time I got him all up and he admitted it. I would have never said a word until you came out. Once he came out, then I would have told him. until the guy with the badge and the gun showed up and then you would have said everything. I would have ducked Jeff Nitzky. No, I would have hired some lawyers. I'd be like, "You guys sit with me when this guy comes in? What's going on? What do you want to know about bike racing? I would have mocked it. Bike bike racing like a kid's bike. You You have a gun? Someone stealing bikes? No. Are they killing people with bikes? The going on with that gun?" Yeah. What What happens in these podcasts when when when the interviewe has to take a leak? You go take a leak, man. Don't worry about it. What happens to the podcast? Well, just pause it for a second. What What about the people at home? I'll talk to them.

71:21Don't worry about it. Oh, yeah. That's right. You're also here, too. Don't worry about it, man. Go take a leak. It happens all the time. It's no big deal. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All the time. Don't Don't sweat it. Well, I'm going to go take a le go take a leak, please do. It's one thing about athletes. They drink fuckloads of water. Lance is here. Pounded. He's hung over, too. He has a very specific schedule. He told me he drinks two cups of coffee in the morning, then he takes a then he drinks water all day, and then he waits until about 5. About 5, then he start drinking. That's a good drug. I was going to ask him about marijuana. Cuz if he smoked marijuana and he was holding in all those lies, that would with you. Like, I'll smoke some weed and uh I'll think about a lie I told in high school. It'll with me. It really will. I'll think about some that I

72:08did in high school and it'll make me go, "Oh, why the did I say that?" Like it it ne that's the one of the crazy things about marijuana. It never lets you forget. It'll bring those things up that you're trying to hide. But alcohol, alcohol is like, "Ah, don't worry about it, pussy." Alcohol is the best drug. If you're trying to hold back a lie, just throw that down. And you know, as soon as you can't walk straight, you're thinking about that. as soon as you're, you know, you're you're thinking about the song that's playing, you're thinking about your whatever, you're thinking about other things. It's a good, it's a good close your focus drug, whereas pot is the opposite. Pot is a uh open your focus. This is fascinating, though, isn't it, Jamie? You forget you have a secret. Yeah. You forget. You don't give a about your secrets. I mean, that's why people make horrible sexual

72:57decisions when they're drunk, you know? I mean, it's also why people think that people that are drunk shouldn't you shouldn't have sex with someone who's drunk, even if you're drunk. I mean, that's why the the crazy feminists try to say that that's rape. You know, that if a man and woman have sex and they're drunk, it's rape. Well, they they say it because you're obviously not exactly of sound. I mean, it depends on how drunk you are, right? Yeah. But at a certain level, you're certainly impaired and you can't make good decisions. I think it's funny though that a guy who's just such a an athlete, lifelong athlete, pounds ooch like that. I ask him how often does it. We were talking about uh marijuana and whether or not uh you used marijuana while you were uh holding back all those lies and how it would with you. Because when I was a I'll think I'll get high and I'll think about some I

73:45lied about in high school and I will go like oh, you know, paranoia and it'll illuminate areas of your life that you're trying to uh avoid. Hm. H the economy of all this is a fascinating aspect of it because um there were a lot of people that were making money off of you racing. A lot of people. There was a gigantic industry. And for them to pretend that they didn't know what I knew as a comedian who again peripherilally watch cycling. You know, I'd watch you win and I'd be like, "Damn, that won again. Damn, that's it. You know, I mean, I I never raced raced bikes. I never rode bikes. So, for me, and I knew, you know, I'm like, how the does the US Post Office not know? How the does Nike not know? How the does They know. They know. They know. They can pretend they don't know, but they know. If they didn't If they didn't know, then they're irresponsible. That's irresponsible.

74:51But they kind of knew and they just said, "It's all right. We're getting away with it. We're getting away with it. But then once the came down, then they all wanted their money back. Yeah. Well, that's a weird aspect. You can't talk too much about this, right? That one that one gets sensitive for the post office one tricky. the post office one I know you can't talk about it but can you talk about this is this is a reality when you are accused of defrauding the federal government which is what they're saying because you were riding for the US post office that was the team and you won x amount of money during that time they they can sue you for three times that money correct right so they won 100 million bucks Yeah, that a lot of money. How's that going? That's uh you know, honestly that that's the only active case. So, that one does get a little trickier to talk about just from a I

75:54don't want to be crushed by my lawyers, but we like our case. We we we think that uh we're confident in the case. We we believe that the postal service uh while none of this story is is uh is perfect um we believe that the postal service and and it their own numbers support it. I mean the postal service commissioned three separate studies to to analyze the effect of the sponsorship on the team. Uh we believe they made hundreds of millions of dollars and and we know that they were also using the team as a sales vehicle. So coming to the during the tour, bringing over potential new clients, bringing over new clients that were actually converting their business to the postal service. We know that happened and we know that equaled a significant increase in revenue. So we like our case. I mean, and and and at this point, uh would I like to have all legal issues out of my life? Yes.

76:53But settlement's not an option. and and so we have to just fall back on what we think is the strength of the case. Does that if they made a ton of money while you were being dishonest, does that exonerate you from owing them money? Like how does that work? Well, I'm not a lawyer, but my view of of of a it's called a KAM case, which is a false claims case. My view is is and I think is one that that our side shares is it's about damages, right? was the postal service damaged, right? And what can we prove to be the damages? And uh you know, if there are no damages, then I would like to think then there's no case. But it's it is what it is. The the federal government is interested in the Department of Justice is interested in the case. Uh and we and I have no choice but to fight it. Uh I don't I don't have after, you know, the dozen previous lawsuits, I'm not in a

77:54position to to really cut any more checks. And so I'm in a position where I have to go I have to go fight this one out. How do you get by financially now? Um well, the the first thing that that I did was was and I and I saw this coming, knew this was going to happen is life was big. I mean, we had three houses, we had a jet, I mean, we had the whole So, you just take that burn rate way down. So, you just your your overhead goes way down. And you know, the the crazy thing is is if you'd have told me before like you're going to go sell a bunch of and sell your plane, I'd have been like, dude, that is life is going to suck. Was that a plane? Well, well, just you know, the house in Hawaii. I'm This is I'm not trying I'm not bragging. I'm just telling you what really happened. And but I would have thought, man, that life is is going to be terrible. As you take

78:48it down and you live a simpler life and you get your burn rate down and you get it manageable, life's exactly the same. Like I don't know. I mean, the happiness factor is exactly the same. Yeah. Like none of that. They've done studies on that. They've done studies on that. And none of that It's more convenient. Yeah. Right. Obviously getting going direct somewhere and not dealing with a terminal and and you know TSA obviously that's different but takes a little more time you know you're around more people but I'm just as happy as I was. Yeah they've done studies on people that actually complicate their lives with more success more houses more things and it actually makes you more tense. It gives you more to think about. Well you got to Yeah. I mean, you got to keep, you know, you have to feed that beast. Yeah. And so, you get a little bit of the dog chasing the tail going

79:38on. And, um, you know, life life was moving real real fast for me then, and it moves a lot slower now. Um, which I don't I don't I don't it might be a little slow for my taste right now, but I don't I didn't like it when it was that fast. So, you cut back on all the expenses. And what do you do you do you earn money now? Like, what do you do to earn money? You know, occasionally. So, I'll I'll I still speak and and sometimes uh I'm paid to speak. Um and then there just other other appearances. I mean, I still have some investments that that uh you know, that help sort of ease that pain. Mh. Um but you know, and who knows what the future holds. I don't know what what if that stuff dries up forever or comes back or who knows. What is it like to sit while this is all going on and watching the economy of this story grow and develop? Because it's not it it wasn't just the the

80:33lawsuits. There's also there's books, there's documentaries, there's all these television shows. It's all it focus. There's ad revenue coming from those shows. There's all these people that are dedicating all this time. Like their careers become a a big part of their careers become telling the Lance Armstrong story. Yeah. It's a it's a it's a small industry. Yeah. Um I mean there there was the industries that benefited on the way up and I was one of those industries. There were the sponsor. I mean you look at track bicycles for example. I mean before the first tour I think we did 125 million in sales. They do a billion now. So yeah a big difference. Um so you have those sort of industries but then you know on the way down. So those are all people are making money on the way up and then on the way down. Uh yeah, it's I think it's it did happen, but it's probably normal and natural

81:22that people capitalize on on the way down. I mean, look at Bill Clinton. I mean, as he's going through everything he went, believe me, there were plenty of people going, "All right, now it's my turn to make some money." And fair play. I mean, that's just that's just the way it is. And uh you know, some people may think that's that's BS, but I mean, everybody was hopping on uh on the way down. Well, they have to, right? I mean it is it was a gigantic story. Now your your friends didn't know what you were doing when it came out. How many of them had a hard time with it? How many of them were cool with it? Like what was it like? You know it's Yeah. Some I mean obviously the people we you know the sponsors fled. Right. Right. Did any of them stay? No. None. How many did you have at a time? Maybe 10. But they have to leave. Right. I mean like some of them are publicly

82:16traded companies so they have concerns about that. Some of them are just covering their ass whatever they but they're all gone. Um and friends are interesting. I mean you have uh I mean just use the foundation as an as an example, right? I mean the the I was on the board. I was the chairman of the board. I was the founder. The board was my friends. But these are the friends that say, "Okay, you're out." And so I get it that that there might be a strategic reason for that. But then when you never hear from these, then all of a sudden these people disappear from your life. I mean, the way I sum it up is is anytime anybody goes through anything, and I don't know if you've had some heavy in your life, but when you're going through it, people either lean in or they lean out. And some people lean out, which means they run away. And you're surprised by that. And

83:02you're like, "What the fuck?" I mean, that guy was at every champagne party we threw in Paris, right? And now he's like, "I haven't heard from the dude in three years." Like, that's strange, right? Um, but he probably has his own motivate either covering his own ass or maybe he's one of these people that has a tremendous sense of betrayal and is just so pissed still and hurt. We have to I mean I have to be receptive to that. Um, but then they're the ones who lean in, right? And and most of those people don't surprise you, but then there are others that lean in and they surprise you like, "Wow, I didn't I didn't know you had my back like that." And so you get surprised on both sides. And and at the end of it all, dude, you look around, you're like, "All right, this this if these people are here, these these are the people that are going to ride anything out with me, which is is kind

83:47of cool and refreshing for me to to to really know, right? If you're if if you're if you're in the if you're loading up a bus with all your most loyal, closest friends, I know who's on that bus now." Yeah. At this point. and and for 20 years, you know, there was just a bunch of chumps that that that that were on that bus, but you know, as soon as as soon as the the the somebody changed the music, they hopped off. And so, um Oh, it it takes adversity. Yeah. To illuminate that. There's no other way. And until you test them, you really don't know. Yeah. Adversity. I remember this is a funny we were this is a postal thing but we were at once I was at a I don't remember the postmaster general's name his name at the time but we we did a this is totally unrelated but you said adversity so it reminded me he was introducing me at this thing and he wanted to say you know introducing me

84:41he's overcome great adversity he says here's Lance he's he's overcome great diversity and I remember thinking Jesus white kid from Plano No, I didn't overcome when it came to diversity. Diversity. Whoops. Mhm. Um, raising kids. Yep. Uh, we both have children and obviously when you're raising a kid, you're teaching them about life. You're trying to set an example. Yep. Um, did you have to sit them down and explain what was going on? Um, how old were your youngest at the time? Oh, and uh the youngest were one and two. Whoa. Yeah. But you didn't have to explain. So, I've got I have three kids with my ex-wife, Kristen, and and and Luke is now 16 and twin girls that are 14. And then I have a six and a 5-year-old with Anna. Um and by the way, all you know, it's the craziest blended family you've ever seen. Like those five kids are five siblings. It's it's the most beautiful thing. And Anna and

85:48Kristen are like sisters. I mean, it's I got a great situation. That's awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Takes a lot of work, but um or took a lot of work to get to this place, but it's awesome. And Kristen, to her credit, uh was who I was married to during this this ugly period um and who, you know, would obviously uh would have known everything. Um has been great. Whether it's whether it's conversations she's had with our older children while they're at her house or just just helping massage this thing. But I'm still sitting down with my kids. I mean, our whole, you know, I go to therapy, Anna goes, we all go, the kids go. We So, we still sit down and just kind of work this out. Dude, this is is is not this is a complicated thing. And and and the crazy thing is my older kids have kind of gotten through it. The six and the 5-year-old will come into it, right? I mean, the internet and and you

86:42know, Google, Wikipedia, you name it. They're going to they will they will grow into this. Like at some point, my six-year-old boy who's just a fanatical athlete and everything is sports and sports and sports. I mean I mean I hear his him and his friends talk about Tom Brady and one of his friends is like, "Oh, he's a cheater." My son loves Tom Brady. He's like, "Oh, he's a cheater." I'm like, "It ain't going to be long before Max Armstrong is at school and some kid in another class goes, "Isn't your dad that cheater?" Like he's going to be like, "What?" Like he he doesn't know, but he so he's going to grow into that. So, that conversation will then be had at that time. It's tough to have it with a six-year-old today, but so I know that's coming, right? And so, but I have the experience of having dealt with it with a 16-year-old boy who at the time was 13.

87:28Um, and and still dealing with it with those guys. And, you know, so far, I mean, I think we've been super proactive. probably, you know, Anna and Kristen probably think I should have been more proactive, but um I think it's in I think that's in a good spot. So, you have group therapy sessions where you just discuss? So, I've sat with with all three kids, the older kids, you know, and it's just sort of free-for-all. Wow. Yeah. And they had no idea until the scandal broke. Yep. And what what was their reaction? Um, you know, the girls were they were nine, so they were still they were young. I mean, a nine-year-old girl, they really didn't have a reaction. Luke was was, you know, was a a 13-year-old boy. No, so they were 11. So Luke was 13, they were 11. They still sort of were immune to it, you know. He he was I mean, he watched when he watched Oprah because it aired three or four days

88:24later. I had sort of fled to Hawaii. I mean, he called me because I talked about Luke on on on her show um with the whole idea that I know he's defending me at school. I mean, there was enough smoke that people were going, "Dude, your dad's a doper, etc." And he was defending me. And my point to Oprah was that at this point, I get to say to Luke, "Stop defending me. You don't need to defend me anymore." Right? It it's true. And so, he watched that, which is probably a heavy moment for for him. It would have been awful watching it with him. Um, but he called me and said, "I I understand and and I love you and and uh but we still I mean that was three years ago. We still have to talk about these things, man. It it how often? Not not often, but it still occasionally comes up, especially if you're talking about the importance of being honest and truthful and and having character. Yeah.

89:20And he's an athlete. I mean, look, I mean, I that that's the only thing that I will I mean, I will say I mean, I don't want ideal. He's my son's huge, six3, 230 lbs. Plays offensive line like Well, that's good. Not too many people would be with him. Yeah, he's he's I think he's good there, but he's also a real sweet guy. Like, he's not he's not a he's not in anybody's face. Um, but I don't want him to say his football passion or or career, what, call it what you will, ends up, you know, at a high level. I mean, I don't want him in a messy spot where he's got to make tough choices, right? In fact, I don't want that at all. And football is a sport where you have to make tough choices. I mean, I'm not a football player, but I can Yeah, I have I can imagine. I have friends that are Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah, that's I mean and it's also open and it's also brought up by coaches.

90:15It's also brought up by trainers. I mean it's just uh it's a part of the game as much as I'm sure it is in cycling. Yeah. Yeah. That had to be just it's just had to like be chewing you apart when you know that your kid's defending you and you know it's going to come out and you know he's having these conversations at school and he's like my dad's not a cheater. Yep. Well, we didn't know it was going to come out. I mean, even even when Nitzky was investigating, I mean, that that that case went away, right? So, we thought at that point, maybe we're done, you know, and and and and and it didn't. I mean, you saw it picked up uh the investigation and then uh uh you know, based on all his work, they picked it up and then it came out. But man, it it happened fast. like it it was seemingly like instantaneous, man. It being Did it surprise you? Um Yeah. Yeah. I think I mean I guess

91:18it's yeah it surprised me but anybody would have been surprised I suppose and it was just surreal you know the way uh it it all came out and uh and and and the method at which they sort of advertised the the findings you know it was it was and there was a whole to their credit I mean there was a strategy on their end so let's let's take Nitzky's work let's do some additional investigations let's package it in something they called the reason decision and then let's go out and talk about it all over the place. Like that that was kind of unbelievable to me. Why do you think they spent so much time and resources going after you? Um as opposed to all the other people who have won be well they they needed a landmark case. They I think there's plenty of people that that and I'm and I I'm just guessing. I'm not this is not based on any proof and and I've had

92:19conversations with USAD. I mean I think we're still getting to the point where we can do stuff together or have a conversation. So I'm not trying to criticize them. I mean I think there there there ought to be a place for them. But I think there's also realistic I mean in reality there are there are people that think they're ineffective. They think they spend 10 or 20 or 50 whatever the number is millions of dollars a year and they don't catch anybody right. I mean, if you if you look at the amount of positives, it must be, you know, less than 1%. Well, if I told you, well, Joe, we're all good, man. It's less than 1% testing positive. You you would, right? You'd think that, right? Yeah. So, they needed they needed a landmark case to say, no, we are effective. And here it is. Um, and I think also from a legal perspective, it set some legal precedence for them that that they can

93:10use going forward in other cases with future future cases. But uh and then you add in just a ginormous story that was guaranteed uh to get a lot of press. But I it still pains me to to to look, I know what went on. We all know what went on. But I I can't take uh when when I hear that that this program or this particular athlete being me was the greatest fraud in the history of sport, you know, I I I can't that's just not true. Right. And then when you hear that our the the our team's doping program was the most sophisticated program in the history of sport. Well, we also know that's not true, right? Um so th those are and then and then the final one was which is really I think bothered a lot of people that that this person being me forced young impressionable young men to put dangerous substances into their body, right? That just is not true. And uh but

94:13if I heard somebody if somebody said that about one of my f my son's friends, I I would be pissed off too. Like I'd be like, "Dude, screw that guy, right?" But it we all made our own choices. We were all grown men. Uh they were bad choices, right? Some most would say we would say. Um but but there was no forcing to do that. What is it like now like in uh I mean I don't want to get too personal but your personal life like people value honesty. It's one of the most important things in friends and and lovers when you have this thing where you're on video over and over and over and over and over and over again being deceptive over and over again defending yourself when you it's and then you come out and say it's all a lie. And so there's this like database of lying like what is it like like trying to get people to trust you, right? Hey man, that's this is what this is what I

95:13talked about in the beginning is that that that road is a is is ne that will be never that that is a neverending path. I will be walking that walk the rest of my life. And there are a lot of people that'll say uh-uh I'm never trusting this guy ever again. I don't care. I don't care how apologetic or contrite he is, I'm done. Um, but that's that's the the the key is that I have to be committed to that path, right? And so I can walk that walk and uh and and take each case individually and one-on-one. Um, but talk about endurance. I mean, we've talked about endurance. That will be the longest the longest walk or the longest journey of my life. Do you have a a code that you follow now? I mean, have you imposed like a stringent set of rules on yourself where like you know like because of this history you can't lie about anything ever? No, I mean I haven't thought I mean I I

96:15guess the answer is no because I haven't there's not been a you know sort of a new mission statement or sort of these key but but I mean life was pretty transparent anyways before that, but I mean there was obvious there was the huge deception. Um but it's not as if you know there's anything crazy out there outside of that, right? Yeah. But I mean, you know, um it's just that's a a big thing with people, you know, to be able to trust their friends or be able to trust their boyfriend or girlfriend, you know. Yep. For sure. What what is life like for Lance Armstrong now? Like is has everything calmed down to the point where the stress is minimized except for the lawsuit? Uh yeah, it's it's as I said a sec a second ago, it's just simple, man. I I mean I I still I love to work out, you know, so I train every day. I think that's What do you do? I I primarily run and then I'll do a

97:16little bit of gym work and then uh I'll ride occasionally although very rarely very rarely get on a bike. Um and why is that? I just it takes too much time and it's just it takes too much time. Well, I mean you could run for an hour. Oh, I see. If you do a hard run for an hour, you got to go ride for three hours, right? So that's two more hours that you plus you got to get all the on and go out and deal with traffic and but does it psychologically with you when you get on a bike? It's a it's I mean the I have some bitterness there towards what we've talked about primarily in and around the economy of it how it was right and now everybody's like no no no we're out or we don't want right we're gonna you know so that's that's but that's that's on me. I got to work that out and that's not that's not their fault that's that's my fault. So, there's some of that. And it's nice to

98:07do. I love to run. I mean, I grew up I ran before I rode. So, it's it's nice to go into something where I can still get I mean, I view working out. You probably view it the same way as almost like a therapy. Like, you're in there, you're suffering. You're just working out, right? And that's what that's what I do when I um when I work out or go for a long run. So, I do that. Um I joke I mean, we have, you know, we have five kids are in four different schools. So, it's I'm like an Uber driver for my kids. Traffic in Austin is not like LA, but it's bad now. It's getting bad now, dude. And so, all I do is like drive my kids around. Too many people talk about how great Austin is. That's what happened, right? Well, but they didn't build that city 50 years ago to accommodate two million people. No. Right. And then uh I play I play a lot of golf, which is why we're going to end

98:54this podcast a little bit so I can go play play Riviera today, man. Don't don't mess with my tea time. I don't I don't want to mess with your tea time. Uh, I appreciate your time very much, man. I appreciate you. We're already done. We can keep going. Want to keep going? I don't know if Higs is here yet. Did he? I'm sure he's here. Someone's calling me. No, it's not him. But, um, and then you got the Hunter book. We got to talk a little bit about Hunter. Yeah, definitely. I I didn't know you were a fan until I saw your maybe Bill Burr retweeted maybe your tweet that said if anybody if there's one person that's dead that that you know that I could meet today or was alive, it would be Hunter. Yeah, it was a Instagram post that I made about one of his incredible quotes about um it was about heroes and it was uh it was particularly poignant about uh it was after Ronda Rousey got

99:41knocked out that I I posted it that people they they love the idea of someone who is like a superhuman person like someone who's a legend someone who who can defy the odds because it gives them hope in this crazy world boredom in cubicles. And I'm I'm doing a shitty job of paraphrasing it, but it's a fantastic quote. And then you got a hold of me about it and uh had that incredible book sent to me when uh Hunter was running for sheriff of Aspen. Yep. Yep. So he Yeah. He he he just, you know, he kind of ruled the valley. I mean, he lived down in Woody Creek, but but the whole um the whole valley was the Roaring Fork Valley was kind of his domain, man. He was just and his best friend was was our longtime sheriff. He was the sheriff for 26 years. Bob Browus, who's a great friend of mine, uh, his under sheriff is probably my best bud there, a guy named by the name of Joe D. Salvo. So, how a

100:38kid from Brooklyn ends up in Aspen is now the sheriff. He's on his second term. So, Joey and Bob were were Hunter's best buddies. I mean, crazy stories. And I and and not to toot my own horn, but And Bob is is the sweetest guy. He was he's the guy that was sheriff for 26 years. He says to me one day he says he calls me champ which is also funny. He says champ he says uh did you ever meet Hunter? And I said no I never met him. And he pauses for a long time and he goes man he would have loved you. And I was I took that I was like hey that is a compliment right there. Like that is a compliment. Hunter was was was nuts and in a lot of ways, but I know I mean he had such a diverse group of friends whether it's it's whether it was our sheriff or whether it was Lyall Love it or whether it was Johnny Depp or whether it was Doug Brinkley. I mean just just this diverse group of artists and

101:30thinkers and law men and and druggies and dude gnarly. I mean he'd go out to the the they did was just I probably can't even talk about it. I'm sure you can. He's dead. It's fine. No, some of the people are still alive. They're still alive. Well, we were talking before the podcast about his ritual, his uh before he would write. So, yeah, superhuman. So, I So, you read that and if for those listening, you just Google, you know, Hunter Thompson's daily regime and you it'll come up. I think Esquire wrote it and the starts at like what is he he wakes up at like 3:00 in the afternoon, right? And just you got to go read it. I mean, it's it's unbelievable. So, I thought this is so unreal. It ain't true. So, I called Joey, our sheriff, and I said, 'Dude, have you seen this? And he says, "Yeah." I said, "That's not real." You know what he said? He said, "That isn't enough." He said, "That's

102:23light. Can you believe?" Go read it, people. And And then imagine that that that that didn't quite get there. Well, Jamie, why don't you find it because it's it's kind of hilarious. We could actually read it on the air, dude. Yeah. He um he had a strong tolerance for substances and he I don't think he ever went without. I mean, it's just he wasn't interested. No. No. Yeah. I mean, that was that was the life that he was interested in. He was interested in just getting up and having a great time and and writing about and pontificating on the demise of civilization. But it it but you know, I don't know if that's what caught up to him, but it definitely did. Yeah. I mean, how could you Did you ever uh see the uh late appearances? I I have a really hard time watching his later appearances. Like he would do like the Conan O'Brien show and you couldn't understand a word he was saying. Like

103:13here, you can see it right here. 3 p.m. Rise 3:05 Shivers Ria with morning papers. Dunh Hills 3:45 Cocaine 350 another glass of shiv another Dunnhill uh 405 first cup of coffee. Reminder this is PM. Yes, for 415 cocaine 416 orange juice Dunhill 430 cocaine 454 cocaine 505 cocaine 5'11 coffee Dunh Hills 5:30 more ice in the shivas 5:45 cocaine etc etc 6 p.m. ass to take the edge off the day. The 3 hours he's been awake have been stressful. 7:00 Woody Creek Tavern for lunch with Heineken, two margaritas, coleslaw, uh taco salad, double order, fried onion rings, carrot cake, ice cream, a bean fritter, dunhills, another Heineken, cocaine, and for the ride home, a snow cone, a glass of shredded ice over uh which is poured three or four jiggers of shivas. God damn it. Nine. Start snoting cocaine. Seriously. Now, now he got serious. 10. Drops acid. 11. Chartreuse cocaine grass. 11:30.

104:30Cocaine, etc., etc. Midnight, Hunter S. Thompson is ready to write. That is. And then it keeps going on. 12:05 to 6 a.m. Chartreuse, cocaine, grass, shivas, coffee, hinekin, clove, cigarettes, grapefruit, dunhills, orange juice, gin. Continuous pornographic movies. Six in the hot tub. Champagne Dove bars. Fetuccini. Alfredo. Alfredo. 8 a.m. Hion. Is that how you say it? That's the pill. That's the first. That was before ambient. Yeah. 8:20 sleep. Wow. Jesus Christ. So, I asked these guys. I asked the sheriffs. I'm like, that shit's not real. Yeah. There's the uh the quote that I post. Myths and legends die hard in America. But we love them for the extra dimension they provide. The illusion of near infinite possibility to erase the narrow confines of most men's reality. Weird heroes and mold breaking champions exist as proof to those who need it that the tyranny of

105:29the rat race is not yet final. Y I mean isn't that I mean that applies to you too, dude. I I I understand that. Yeah. It applies to your life. Yeah. I mean and that's part of the reason I'm sure why some people are pissed at you. like you were a legend with a caveat. Yep. Yeah. I mean, the the the the story in its totality, right? If if I was just a cyclist, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But but the cancer part of the story, right, is what you know, everybody relate to cycling. They got to figure it out. They started to watch it. Cool. He won again, right? The cancer part of it, everybody can relate to, right? I mean, every everybody has either had the disease themselves or lost a loved one or had a loved one or friend or a neighbor affected by it. So, they're like, "All right, I'm in." Like, that that's some right there. That disease. So, I and they rallied

106:22around that. And that's, you know, that's that's why that fall came swift and hard, man. Well, there's parallels in life when it comes to this story in a lot of ways because everything is kind of messy. you know, the the reality versus the narrative. It's always messy and there's so many variables that don't get discussed and there's so many aspects of it that they're flexible and they move around and and that's Yeah. I mean more and more now I mean the transparency we see in our society today whether it's politicians or politics or sports or entertainment I mean dude imagine like I always say like you know if if if I give you three names that were alive today like Sinatra we just you know he just had celebrated his his 100th birthday if you if you took Sinatra, JFK and Michael Jordan and they and they were at their peak today TMZ alone would would be nuking people. Yeah. And

107:22so, uh, it's just it's it's we're just getting deeper and deeper into that. Yeah. It's And I think this is just still the beginning. Yeah. For sure. Well, I think what's going on with technology, too, is we're seeing this very obvious trend that the boundaries between people and thoughts and ideas and reality and facts, they're getting smaller and smaller and smaller to the point where they're going to be erased. And I don't know how that's going to happen, but I think it's going to happen with something that connects us in in a a much more personal way than peripheral devices like laptops or phones. I think there's going to be some technology that connects us body to body, whether it's some sort of a neural implant or something along those lines. I I really do. I think it's inevitable. I mean, the symbiotic relationship that we have with with cell phones right now is

108:11undeniable. I leave my phone like you. You dropped your phone, you're like, "Fuck, where's my phone? My phone's broken. No. Here. Yeah. Yeah. I'm I mean, I dropped So, I did drop my phone, but I'm like I'm like scratching myself cuz I haven't had the phone for like 2 or 3 hours. Yeah, dude. It's That ain't good. No, it's not good. I leave my phone sometimes in the in the car when I go do the podcast and I don't realize that I left it and I'll be in the middle of a great podcast like, "Fuck, my phone's not here. I'm not even going to use it. It's out there. I don't touch it." But the fact that it's not physically like I want it right there, dude. Imagine if like you know you're on here and you just start like you know you got some guest on you're like texting I mean the guest would be like what the what's he come all the way over here this godforsaken valley and that LA traffic

108:56and the guy's on his phone. Yeah. Well I have had people that are guests that start checking their Twitter like Neil Brennan will try start checking his Twitter in the middle of the pocket. What the are you doing? I want to see what people are saying about it. Talk to them afterwards. Just flip your People ever You don't let people call in and ask questions or tweet and ask questions. We've done that before. But the problem is the people that want to do it are usually trolls. You know, some of those might be fun. I like if I wanted that kind of a show, I would do an all call-in show. I did a talk I did a talk a couple couple months ago in Denver and 600 people and it was kind of moderated Q&A and then we and then the audience was allowed to ask questions and people were cool. They're asking questions and the moderator says and there's a line to get to the mic to

109:39ask questions and and the guy says uh not that this I'm not uh connect you know calling her a troll but the guy says is anybody in line really pissed at Lance and want to ask a question this lady in the back she's like me she comes trucking up there and so you know I was like this is going to be super interesting like what the hell is she going to ask me how am I going to answer it so I I I I I I you know, maybe I like a challenge, but You definitely like a challenge. I think you're just bored. In between golf games, you want to spar with somebody verbally. Hey, ask Higs if my phone got fixed. Did he text you? Um, let me see. He's probably out there. I looked when I went to go to the bathroom. Uh, ha, cool. Thanks. That's the last thing he said. Here, I'll text him right now. You out there? Who says ha, cool, thanks? He did cuz he said cuz I said you wanted Advil.

110:30He says, "Lance would like you to bring Advil." He says, "Ha, cool. Thanks." And I said, "Uh, you out there?" Yeah. It was his birthday last night, so we we went out to dinner and just we got, you know, way too drunk. It happens, dude. It happens. Um, what we were talking about about tech technology though, about uh bringing people closer together and and this the the fact that there's going to I I mean, I really think there's going to be no secrets. So, I don't think anybody's going to have secrets from anybody in the future, right? I think um you kind of you caught like the wave of this trend before it got even crazier than it I mean, you caught the wave and even in 2012, the comparison between 2012 and 2015, it's like it's ramped up considerably. Sure. And it'll continue to do that. There's no getting around it. Right. Right. Yeah. Is that good? Is that a good thing

111:24or is it just what it is? Yeah. You and I are not going to stop it. So that that that's it's inevitable. No one is. Nobody's. I think it's going to not just it's just it's one of the things that's going to happen is it's not going to just be celebrities. It's not going to be just people like you, people like Michael Jordan or whoever. It's going to be everybody. It's going to be if you want to find out anything about Jamie, it's going to be all on the table. Maybe Jaime was one of those Ashley Madison clients. He could have been. was. Well, there have been some ridiculous people that were that wind up killing themselves when like preachers and like that that it was found out. But how dumb do you have to be to think that that's going to be secure? You're going to go on some dating site? I mean, come on, man. Like, who who's that's that's insane. But, you know, what kind of a

112:15weirdo wants to find out about people that were on the dating site? Like, what do you give a Leave them alone. Exactly. But that's not the world we live in, right? I got to take a leak again. Do you? Well, let's let's end this thing. Let's end it. Yeah, we're kind of We're done. I think we're done. It's 11:30. It's supposed to tee up at 11:30, but All right. Will you really? Yeah. But I'll meet I'm going to meet him out there. It's all good. It's all good, man. Well, thank you, Lance. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for doing this. And thanks for listening, whoever. Hopefully somebody listen. A lot of people listen, I'm sure. All right, that's it. Bye, everybody. Bye.