Jon Bernthal

00:07[Music] by night [Music] see and I I think about the people you know who who are my teachers and you know my parents my friends parents and you know they're sort of at the Forefront of uh you know troops coming home and getting yeah spit on and yeah and you got people you know you're coming out of you know Jim Crow and people you know people going down south and getting lynched you know in Meridian Mississippi and you you know I just and then these assassinations I just can't imagine what that must like a string of assassinations and just given the conversation you know if you're talking about the most [ __ ] up time when you think everything is going to complete [ __ ] and it's just Harry Carey like what would I mean imagine if right now you know in the in in the string of next week like Kanye was assassinated Trump was

01:04assassinated you know like I mean I guess you had the thing at Pelosi's house I mean I guess that's like kind of weird but like it's also kind of weird it's just weird right yeah but like imagine that like imagine what what we'd all be said I mean it's like you know I think in the last couple years we really saw what it how close how fragile this whole thing is and how close this thing it can go to just breaking down and you're kind of on your own but I just have like both yeah you got a good point yeah like like what did that feel like John F Kennedy Robert F Kennedy Martin Luther King Jr Malcolm X all these murders all these assassinations very close to each other what like 68 and then and then also you have I mean not to the same extent I don't know what how it would register now but you had Altamonte you had you know and then

01:53again just you know scores of you know you had troops coming home you know like think about how we regard our military now yeah and and and the reverence and respect that that that that that we treat our military and think about you know these troops coming home getting getting spit on yeah you know people throwing you know red paint at them you know in the airports like think about that yeah you know what that what that says about us imagine if they had social media back then you know what I'm saying yeah yeah that's true that's very good point and then you know all the other people that died during that time right like all the rock stars like Jimi Hendrix Janice Joplin Jim Morrison everyone's dying yeah it's just like and then the 70s come along and you know you have [ __ ] Watergate and Nixon's gone and like all the chaos in the country

02:42totally and everybody's just manically horrified you know you have the the the previous generation just absolutely fixated on this this new War on Drugs and what that means and then you have these great I mean think about I mean who who would be the equivalent of him Hendrix Morrison and Janice Joplin now if they all you know died right right just like I mean look we we've got we've got people getting shot in the street you know we've got you know uh uh you know what was his name from uh Migos he just died offset just died no no no not offset the other the other guy offset's still alive he's the he's the one who's married to cardi B right it's uh the other guy got accidentally shot by one of his friends yeah they were in the middle of uh some gun fight and his one of his guys accidentally shot him yeah there's just we're so aware of the

03:39violence now and gun violence in South Central and gun violence in south side of Chicago and gun violence in Baltimore and so I think I think we're probably more acutely aware of the like just because of the news cycle just because of social media but I think you're right in terms of the turmoil and also you go from like the tone of the 50s to the 60s you have like a completely different style of culture is emerging the Psychedelic style of culture and the music is different you got Woodstock and it seems like there's this giant you know Hunter S Thompson wrote about it like what happened after all that happened was like you could just see this wave of change and then it pulled back yeah yeah got got a little bit too much for everybody you know yeah I guess I mean is it but it's all like these Monumental shifts and then everything sort of kind

04:31of tries to balance itself out and then you have these new dilemmas and new problems I would imagine it is a you know I have a friend named Tony Maggio's uh sort of legendary uh legendary drug Cup in in Baltimore from the East side and and uh he's from the community he's got uh the complete and sort of utter respect of everyone in that department not just on the east side but Citywide in Baltimore and and also he's got the respect to people on the street and he sort of talks about now and I you know just talking about these soldiers coming home in the Vietnam era and what that was like I I really equate that to kind of everything that law enforcement's going through right now you know we have these it for the first time you know with Vietnam you had these images look I wasn't live but from what I hear you know you had these images coming into

05:18people's living rooms of these you know horrible situations people talking about the the my Massacre people talking about these things um you know in Vietnam and and and to the same extent now you know we were just sort of there's so many examples of you know crazy and rampant sort of police brutality you have these these instances that were then magnified to the point where people who have no experience you know you know in this world would think that this is what all police are doing and all of a sudden you have this unbelievably just uh stride and anti police movement in this country and um you know and the result of it in a lot of places is a total increase in crime and you know I I you know talking to Tony about it you know he just he really believes that it's just a pendulum you know it's just a pendulum you know you

06:08go one way then you go the other and uh and and he thinks it's gonna really swing back well I hope he's right it seems like that's always the case as long as there's not some sort of a catastrophic thing that happens like a world war or something that literally like flattens society and civilization I mean January generally people try to move things in a better Direction it's just setbacks and all these things that happen along the way I think culturally we're all trying to move towards a better Direction I mean that's why there is so much outrage and you know when you have this anti-police sentiment it is because of all these horrible egregious examples of police brutality this question you know the right way to do it is not defund the police the right way to do it is not like uh this this attitude towards all law enforcement

07:00which is crazy because some of those same people they're going to find themselves in a situation where they need law enforcement absolutely and then what do they do they look like Hypocrites and you know it's it's a lack of understanding of the the scope of the overall problem and I think a lot of the times the conversation is just really being led by the wrong people you know we're looking abundance and and celebrities and so-called experts in these situations we're not talking to the people that are actually on the ground uh doing the job people from the communities uh and and I think there's a lot to be learned from those folks yeah oh no doubt it's just it seems like there's also this problem of there's so much information to sort through you know when you're dealing with this 24-hour news cycle and social media you're dealing with most of the things

07:45that people concentrate on are negative and so you're dealing with negative consequences and negative actions from billions of people and we're all trying to filter it out and apply it to our everyday lives while everyone's freaking out about climate change while everyone's freaking out about the war in Ukraine while everyone's freaking about the drug problem and the Border problem the cartels and Fentanyl and [ __ ] yep yep yep yeah and everything's designed to just sort of be delivered in the most on nuanced the most just sort of Bright Lights hey pay attention to me and uh you know that's that that's scary the the truth gets really lost and these these issues are you know they're they're enormously complicated and they're not easy and and trying to say that they are or trying to just sort of deliver an agenda say I'm on this team

08:37or in this team I'm on this side or the other side it's uh I mean for me uh I I find that enormously Un-American and I find it um I I think it's a huge mistake and it's it's not the way I want to live my life or it's not the way I want my kids to live theirs agreed yeah I feel exactly the same way we have a horrible tendency towards tribalism in the in this country there's definitely this tent this trend I think that's also exacerbated by social media and the algorithms where people are just they're holding up on teams and attacking people on the other side and all of it is kind of [ __ ] yeah and isolating even more and more and I think that um I really think that the lines in which we're dividing ourselves um you know we so many people have talked about the the polarization it's like one of these things it's like

09:26everybody talks about it but we still kind of you know still still march to the beat of that drummer and I think that the lines that divide us they're so porous they're so insignificant um they really there's there's no value based on those lines ever in my opinion um I I think you know we miss out on so much by holding people back or saying you are on this side or you're on that side and um I I look at it you know in terms of are prejudices and and and and um these things that we ascribe to you know I look at it you know in that movement that we were talking about you know to to sort of jump to this conclusion if you've never been in a situation where you've really needed the police to say that all cops are bastards or abolish the police or to say that uh you know folks in in these communities uh you know that that where the violence is going down uh

10:33you know in in sort of the most violent cities in America to to think that those folks that are from those communities don't want more policing there is it's just a huge mistake and I I I really feel like um you know when I talk to my friends in Shreveport Louisiana or in Baltimore um that that is not the case and um yeah I look at it a lot of times you know if you had a if you had a if you had a a football team and and and you know you you felt that you know what I just you know I just don't want any I just don't want any homosexuals on my football team you know if you're just like if that's how you felt there could be somebody on that you could have somebody on your team who's six foot five you know runs a four four forty and just can demolish people but because your own stupid Prejudice because of your own just Ridiculousness

11:26that you ascribe to you're missing out and and your team's got to fail right and and it's just such a it's it's it's impossible to thrive it's impossible and I just I just find it so unbelievably Un-American it's definitely an American you have such an interesting nuanced perspective which you know I don't want to say is unusual for actors because I think actors are just human beings and they vary wildly but to be a guy like yourself who decides hey I want to put these opinions out there and I want to talk about things in this sort of nuanced and you know objective way like what made you decide to do that because that's very unusual for actors and it's also unusual for actors to do it well like you you don't come cross is someone who's trying to sort of soften your words or say things in a way that's virtuous so that people like you more or you you seem very

12:27genuine in what you do and to do that as like in a podcast form the way you're doing it it's almost like it's like did you get any people saying like hey maybe you shouldn't do this 100 yeah this could be a liability what are you doing dude you're throwing it all away why do you have all these opinions shut the [ __ ] up and be the Punisher yeah I know I know and honestly man I'm you know I have huge trepidation I have huge hesitation and I I don't necessarily think it's for the reasons that you just pointed out I I think you know for me um you know not to be grandiose about but look I I love acting I I love it and I think in a lot of ways it it it genuinely saved my life and I think that I imagine I'm a huge fan of yours and um I listen to your show religiously and and I I imagine that similar potentially to how you feel about comedy I feel

13:22about acting I feel like it's a lifelong Pursuit I feel like it's something that um failure and humiliation is is always on my shoulder he's always there talking to me and whispering to me and it's always a fight that I like fighting um you can you're never gonna have it licked you always got to get better there's always further you can take it there's always a grind to it you can always that's how I look at it I love it and I'm beholden to it so anything that kind of gets in the way of that or um is uh I've been kind of conditioned to think is is the enemy and to be honest with you one thing that I'm quite certain uh is the enemy of that is is putting more of myself out there right I'm really not interested in in being you know more well-known or uh uh uh so to be honest with you um there's a lot of trepidation about it in that way I think the more you hear

14:18from me the more I Share My Views uh just more time in the Box you get of John Being John the less you're gonna believe me as a tennis coach or as a mathematician or The Punisher or whatever whatever it is and and and so that is but I will say um you know the intentionality behind the show is something I I genuinely believe in um I think this all kind of came forward uh you know in covid in in sort of the wake of not only George Floyd but in just all these examples of of this police brutality and this rampant police brutality and and the fervor that kind of came after it you know I was really in this situation where um like so many I was I was so uh disgusted and heartbroken and and angry uh watching that video and and and and Eric Gardner and I mean all all of them but but George Floyd and and I really really wanted to get out there and and be part of that um

15:24be part of that protest and be part of that Uprising um but at the same time I turned on the TV and I saw people throwing bottles at police officers I thought I saw people throwing bricks at police officers and to me every single one of those police officers is a brother a sister a son a daughter someone's someone's best friend um and uh I was disgusted by that and and I really you know I'm I'm very grateful for kind of how I grew up and where I grew up I grew up in in Washington um I uh I I have um you know I have black folks in my family I grew up extraordinarily uh you know with familial and and best friends and and ties uh very much into the black community and I'm very much I think aware of the struggles that that black folk have been in through the city and especially their struggles with police I myself have been beaten by the police

16:27but I've also had my my life saved by the police and I I also believe that um so many of the folks that were sort of leading the charge in this anti-police movement and also so many folks that were leading the charge in this anti-black lives matter movement um there are folks who really had no you know you know really in it it was just people kind of like arguing from the polls flag waving from the polls uh and I I was seeing something um kind of in America generally where where strength and and patriotism was being confused with with with being rigid or being steadfast in your views and completely unbending and then an unwillingness to sit down with somebody that thinks differently than you and and and to be confident in yourself enough to to to to say hey you're an American I'm an American and like I might learn something from you I

17:25I don't have all the answers and I I think at that time the Genesis of you know I mean you know while the podcast started is I I looked at okay well you know on one side you've got you know in this anti-police movement who is the most you know who's the archetype that that everyone is is sort of most afraid of in in that and to me it's the plain clothes Unit A aggressive take the fight to the criminal police officer right and then on the other side who's the archetype who are we all afraid of okay well maybe it's the African-American gang member and you know to me I looked at my life and and one of the things I'm most grateful for is I have really really really dear genuine close friends who fit both of those bills and and it's my assumption because they are actually in it pitted against each other at times but they are on the same streets dealing

18:22with each others there's so many times that they have opportunities to see good in each other to to find things that they respect about each other I find when I when I you know spend times when I go out and ride along and I I I spend time with plain close police units they'll look at their own groups and they'll say who's really about it and who's not they they find flaws within their own Community with a lot of the guys who have been really successful in the criminal world it's the same and they're they're able to reach across this sort of so-called aisle and they're they're able to say hey there's something about that guy really respect I really dig what he did I really did what that person did and and and I found that they'd kind of appreciate the same things they'd laugh at the same things they did they're a lot closer than they are further apart and I just

19:08thought that these were really the people that that I want to listen to I want to I want to I want to listen to the people who are actually in it and and and who who who walk the talk walk the walk don't just talk about it and um that's really where um you know the idea for the show started and started such a long-winded answer but I I I I I would the trepidation I have in doing the show uh is quelled a bit because I just really really believe in the folks that come on it this show is not about me you know I'm not I I don't think I I don't think I'm particularly good at it I don't think I'm particularly uh that interesting of a guy to to to be leading these conversations what I think I I have is this unbelievable group of of friends uh both because of how I grew up and because of what I do for a living that people talk to me and and and

20:07um and I've become really really close with them and you know asking somebody to come on and talk about these things is it's not easy you know it comes at a cost um but I'm really grateful for it and and and uh I I I giving these folks a platform and these are precisely the people that I want my kids listening to and and the two sort of things in my life that are most important it's yeah it's it's it's my work and it's my family so you know at times those are opposed to each other but ultimately I really believe in it how long did this do in your mind before you ultimately decided to do something um it's student it stood in my mind for a while while and and you know we started doing them and uh you know it sort of fits and so what was the first one so the the first one that we did was exactly what I'm talking about we we did

20:55it with um my friend Jerry Ballesteros who's uh you know his crash unit cop uh so how does this conversation start and like how do you decide to start doing this like what how do you you know how do you say you know what I'm going to sit down with people like were you just like I don't feel like their side's being represented I don't I feel like I have something to add to this or I feel like I have a unique position not me can kind of bring people together yeah not me them yeah I I guess there's that and and um you know I I had uh I have friends who um you know especially if you if you look at South Central specifically um you know Newton division in in South Central um it's uh historically one of the most violent uh uh you know they call it shoot Newton one of the one of the most violent uh uh precincts in in the entire city um I was enormously close with uh some

21:49of the guys in that Precinct and Cherry bellosteros is sort of this this legendary cop there um he's lost people uh on the street and and um he's uh he's he's gone all the way and and um he's a guy that's respected uh I I believe in his reasons so he's the first guy sat down with but I sat down with him and I sat down with um a guy named Dante Johnson uh people call him Bojangles on the street um he grew up in the Pueblo Bishop housing projects the the Pueblo Bishop housing projects and Newton division are you know right next to each other they've been sort of set against each other forever um you know uh people call him Bojangles like I said um he's a community activist he's uh somebody who's given so much back to the community of the Pueblos but um he was also he he he was um you know part of the Pueblo it still is part of

22:45the Pueblo Bishop Bloods and um you know these guys knew each other they knew of each other they've come into contact with each other in the street and you know at first you know getting them together was it was difficult it was hard and and it's a big First Step yeah like you're gonna get into podcasting this is like that's a very big undertaking yeah but again it's uh I don't know um you just felt compelled I did I did and look I mean I think at the time you know my cousin uh was the in a band called Fountains of Wayne and right in the beginning of of covid when it was first sort of popping off um he died um way too early left two daughters behind um only person my family uh really that that showed me that it was possible to kind of be an artist uh and uh it was really he died real early he was sort of like hey I'm sick and and and

23:41I'm I'm going into the hospital now I got this thing and hey I'm on a ventilator and and never never came out and and uh you know his parents couldn't go visit him his kids couldn't go visit him even though they're a mile apart because they closed off the hospitals and um yeah so you know I live up in Ojai California in a place that's you know you know yeah I know yeah so covet almost like didn't really exist there at the time but then again when when the George Floyd Uprising you know popped off I really wanted to get out I really wanted to be a a part of that um but then again when I saw the anti-police movement anytime I'd go in protest I'd also stop by Newton Division and just pay my respects and I just was so frustrated that I couldn't be both I couldn't I I was so Pro black lives matter but also super pro law enforcement and understand that these

24:30things are not mutually exclusive so that's kind of where the idea came from but you know with these guys specifically it was it was really hard to to get them together there had been um an officer involved shooting at the Pueblos right at that time and there was an ongoing case and uh you know what was interesting the way that we came around is uh Beau he's he started an acting school uh in the Pueblos uh in South Central with with Shia LaBeouf years ago called Slauson Rec and Bo himself um he was an acting student and an actor himself and um there's a show that I wrote about Shreveport Louisiana and um I wanted to do a reading of it and so I got Bo and a bunch of guys um from the the Pueblos some of whom were active gang members to to do this reading of the show and I brought in a bunch of Industry people and a bunch of agents and managers to come give these

25:29guys an opportunity but the place that we had the reading was at a place that was sort of run by my friend who's in the LAPD so you had these cops coming in at that time setting up chairs and hanging lights and you had these X and current gang members performing and to put them all on Mission together and put them all sort of into by the end everyone's hugging each other and now you know we're setting up a show with Jerry and Beau where they both love fishing so they're going fishing and they're taking people fishing with them but this is the whole thesis and and what I expected to happen really did I I know these two men I believe in these two men with all my heart I respect these two men uh limitlessly and I knew that they would laugh at the same [ __ ] I knew that they would be finishing each other's sentences their experience is what binds

26:19them and again they can point out flaws in each other and at times they do in in the episode they can point out flaws with the system they can talk about things that are grossly unfair um you know this is one of the things that sort of came out that was so interesting is you know Jerry was talking about you know being you know decades long veteran of LAPD how you know places would give them free coffee he would go eat for free but now walking in you know in uniform people wouldn't let him in you know their their establishments and and you know on the other side you know you know you you got both saying yeah I've lived I've lived with that my whole life man you know what I mean and and there's a real There's real points of connection that way and uh and then I just think from there it just um you know I believed in that in that thesis

27:08and we just kind of kept it going and I got a group of people around me that I think really believe in it as well and uh yeah man it's it's um so this is what we're doing one of the things that separates people so much is the lack of communication and the fact that you're able to get those two guys to sit down and communicate that opens up doors to so many other people and opens up doors of possibility in people's minds where they can watch that conversation and go you know what at the end of the day we're all just people and we all believe in what we believe in and oftentimes we look at the other people on the other side as as being the opposite or being the enemy when in fact they're just other human beings we have way more in common than we do like conflict and and I think with the ice with how isolated everyone is and everyone wants to say I

27:56I I'm on this side or on this side it's like if these two guys can sit down for each other who have again lost Freedom lost lives lost friends taken lives you know in this so-called War but they can actually sit down and strike a real genuine friendship and then go fishing and then go [ __ ] fishing like what are you doing like standing on the side being like I hate those people but you never you know what I mean and and and um yeah I I I believe in that I believe in that with all my my heart well what disturbs me is that that absolute lack of nuance that some people have where you know it's this side is bad that side is bad and all that is exacerbated not just by social media but also by foreign entities that are embedded in social media that continually stir up this sort of strife and stir up this conflict and it's done intentionally to

28:45try to divide us that sounds like very tinfoil hat but it's all been proven that this is going on yeah I mean I don't know man it's so clearly it's so clearly a weakness it's so clearly a weakness in in the fabric and the structure of our society so it's worse there you know look man I I lived in in Moscow for for two years and yeah what are you doing over there you know I um I I was really kind of a a [ __ ] up as a kid Joe and and uh all my favorite people were oh boy yeah I took it I don't know I took it to a different level maybe but I I um I was really lost as a kid got into a a ton of trouble uh went to school um played a little bit of sports in school but I was getting in a lot of trouble um trouble with the law trouble uh you know ended up not being able to finish school and um I got really into acting in in

29:38college almost as a whim no no aim it was just almost on accident and um I met a wonderful woman there named namama Becker and and she she ended up marrying my wife and I uh she's um and and she was sort of fascinated with uh Eastern European and Russian theater and um when I got done sort of like being in trouble and I went school when I couldn't finish school I I decided this was really what I wanted to do and I really wanted to be an actor but I had no kind of frame of reference I didn't think it was any different than being a plumber or being a lawyer being a cop like what are the steps I have to do this is what I want to do for a living she sort of explained well it doesn't really quite work that way but you know she said that look if if if if she were I you know she she thought that the best theater School in the world was was the Moscow Art Theater in

30:26in Russia and she said you know I can get you an audition for that it's the best theater in the world is in Russia according to her and um and and I I certainly believe that I mean if you look at it I mean kind of historically you know all of acting that that that we you know that we celebrate is is you know was was really like the kernel of that all started at that theater at the Moscow Art Theater really stanisovsky and check off yeah they're the first play they did was the seagull and uh they um they they they they put that play together in a summer home outside Moscow and then they came into the City and they put it on and up until that point what year was this there's not this was in the 1920s so basically all theater all acting up into that point was very presentational it was very go to the front of the stage and kind of Proclaim

31:17to the audience you know face outward and uh what they what stanislavski came up with what you what you hear and his method which is not you know like sitting in your own [ __ ] or having people call you your character name that that is not you know method acting this method that that he came up with was really about uh realism on stage so if you're drinking tea in a scene really drink tea turn your back to the audience talk as if you're actually in the situation and in 1933 they went on a world tour with this play the seagull uh they went through Europe and then they went to America they went to San Francisco to Chicago into New York and that changed acting all of the sort of Great American Theater training you know from the group theater with Strasbourg and new to hog and it all came out of their exposure to this one play nobody

32:05had ever seen acting like that and it all started at this school how did they figure that out like how did who figure that out the Russians what was the Genesis of that you know I I I I think it was you know it was this unbelievable conglomeration of a rejection of of how theater was before that but also you know like so many things it it takes this sort of Perfect Storm of people coming together you had Chekhov um who you know look in the in the Eastern European world and you know check off to to to Russia is very much what Shakespeare is to us you have this guy who is writing in this unbelievably realistic way who you know examine human behavior he was a doctor and he he really looked at it um he really looked at life um sort of in this sort of like omnipotent or omnipresent way like he was looking down on it for example um

33:01you would have somebody who was uh you you have a love story The the seagull there's always some confusion because it's called a comedy but it's really ultimately that the the lead character takes his own like kills himself at the end and it's very tragic but from a doctor there was something really funny about all these people who were in love with the wrong person I'm spending my life wanting to love this person I want this so bad yeah but right next to you is a person who really loves you and you're ignoring that and just sort of the the feebleness and the fragility of of human behavior and really examining it um these small characters giving them a real emotional life on stage you know that's that's so you you have this in the writing and then you had this brilliant actor director stanislavski who just thought you know what if we

33:47actually play this for real and it was a completely revolutionary thing it changed changed everything it's it's the style of of film acting and theater acting that that is literally taking over everything today that's fascinating I would have never known that and so you go over there and what is it like to go over to Russia did you understand and speak Russian did you have to learn that did they speak English um so I was over there in the late 90s I was a totally wild time to be there and I think looking back at you know maybe why Alma wanted me to be there was you know probably because I was such a wild kid and I was so lost and doing so much kind of [ __ ] up stuff she just packed up your [ __ ] yeah man and back that you know no email no you know no phone you know you go over there and it's like you know you don't talk to

34:34anybody you don't talk to anybody from your life here and I think very much I think she knew I needed to get out of here and so I think that was part of it for her but you know Russia he you know I can't I mean the the way I would describe it is um unbelievable Beauty with with unbelievable brutality um for me there's no way I I would be doing what I do today if it wasn't for my time spent there um you had this unbelievable appreciation uh for the Arts on uh every corner there's a statue of a playwright or a poet or an actor you know being an actor was an enormously masculine thing to do um it was um the the training itself was was highly rigorous you know from playing college sports and you know doing fight training it was by far without a doubt the most uh disciplined and and physically strenuous uh work that I've ever done in my life

35:37how so so basically the way that the school works is you know you have thousands of kids that audition and then um every they take 100 and then every semester they'll cut that class in half so you're you're kind of fighting for your life the whole time you're there and they'll graduate 10 kids and these kids are coming from all over the country and it's really kind of like if you get into that school it's kind of like this golden ticket it's kind of like you know there's there's at the time there's 10 times more theaters in Moscow than they were in New York theater is religion there and I I I'll definitely explain to you sort of why that is especially coming out of Communism and how important theater was and the role it played but if you graduate from one of those schools it's not like in America where a lot of theater training is very coddling and

36:22it's very like okay you can't really play sports you're not the best student but come to the theater where you can be a tree and everybody's Kumbaya and we get along if you can get through one of those schools you're funneled into one of the major theater companies it's such a huge achievement they're kind of guaranteed employment after that and the people that get the honor of t teaching in Russia it's the highest honor you can achieve so my teacher Olay tabikov he'd be the equivalent of like Robert De Niro here it's um so you know if an acting teacher walks into a room it doesn't matter even if you're in public if you're a student of that school you have to stand up and you can't sit down until they sit down and there's just this this unbelievable respect that's built in you need to learn acrobatics you have to train ballet you have to do acrobatics

37:07so you were training in acrobatics in ballet while you were learning acting yeah yes really and uh and how do they structure that how do they structure what how do they structure that kind of training so it's it's it's um you know at first in the first year I mean look in the in the first year you're there there's no there's no text I mean all of the training is in your voice and in your body um and in Rhythm you learn Rhythm which is something that's like not taught here um rhythm of communication everything everything so rhythm of objects like literally just learning uh it it it's just it's it's studying rhythm so you and I would be able we would be tasked with putting on a show completing rhythms like uh off rhythms and and um how do I explain it like I I give you I'll give you an example you know like one of the training exercises would be uh

37:59training your attention your concentration right so you would read a newspaper article and you would just they would tell you to concentrate on one paragraph and you would read that to yourself and while that's happening everyone in the class would be asking questions say Jamie what what color socks are you wearing today he would answer then Jamie would say Joe what did you have for breakfast you would answer someone yes we would go around and everybody would while you're reading the article meanwhile the teacher would be clapping snapping or coughing when it was over he would point to anyone in the class you have to know how many times he snapped how many times he coughed how many times he clapped then he would go around and he would say what did Jamie eat for breakfast today you would have to know all that and then he'd have you

38:44stand up and you would have to recite the paragraph that you just read and you would have to be able to answer any of those questions so it's these these these actually and that's kind of what the method was and then when you get into the acrobatics it's really really getting just much much more limber you know I was I played football and baseball I played in college I was very very sort of um you know I lifted weights I was a very just tight person so it was just like partner stretching stretching the [ __ ] out of yourself and then learning how to do you know have people kind of climb up your body learning how to you're either a support I guess the equivalent would be uh like gymnastics or some sort of like you know high level tumbling but uh you had to do all that and ballet as well um and uh yeah I mean not until the

39:28second year are you actually you know speaking text you know all of it is just movement based observation based wow so it's almost like a boot camp like they're building you up I think so and then every you you know every couple months they let you know that whether you're allowed to come back or not and and so you have people's you know dreams kind of shattered and I I think more than anything else man it's it's the um the Vitality of it you you know look during communist times public gathering was outlawed so you know you couldn't go to church you could you couldn't get a group of people together and and and and and speak you know audiences were illegal unless they were politically based and controlled by the Kremlin so there were a couple State based theaters state-run theaters in Moscow one of them being the Moscow Art Theater

40:22um but they had to do pro-state uh shows and the thing is is a lot of these people you know uh meyerhold for example he's one of the most famous Russian directors he would be he was he was lauded by the state as this you know unbelievable uh hero of the Russian theater and and and you know style that they would go and they would see his plays but then somebody looked at it and all of a sudden they said you know what I think there's actually an anti-state message here they executed him in his in his uh apartment so actors were sent to prison for being in a play that all of a sudden somebody just deemed as anti-state and and and and you know for me you know my main teachers you know they were they did this play called shinzano which was uh uh about three guys uh one of them lost their moms three three best friends one of them lost their mom and it's just the

41:14three of them sitting in this apartment drinking a bottle of chinzano and just sort of lamenting about this loss and they've been putting this play on for 30 years once they were my teachers during communist times so they would do this play in subway tunnels and abandoned buildings had they been caught they would have been imprisoned anybody who was in that audience would have been in prison for going to watch that show but they did it anyway because it was that vital to them it was that important to them and you know for me you know again thinking you know I'm this like kind of tough kid from from DC and that I knew what the hell I was talking about like being around that being around people that were that were operating with that set of stakes where the history the palpability of of of of of the tumultuous history that is alive in every breath in that city

42:05um again the Beauty and the brutality uh it was it was a game changer for me I mean look man my you know want one you know sort of brief anecdote you know when I when I first went over there um I think my third day there was uh was was my birthday and uh you know again just I lived in a place called parkour Tory which is Gorky Park it was kind of a a pretty rough sort of shitty area in Moscow and I had a translator yeah I spoke no Russian at all when I first went over there and uh my translator Max came and picked me up where I was living he took me to the Moscow Art Theater which is on severskaya right across the street from Red Square it's a few subway stops in a couple different directions to get there and once we got there the one thing that they tell you that's absolutely essential at all times you always have to have your papers back

42:54then at that point the the mayor ran the Mafia the mayor's police they didn't really have a salary they made their money by what they could sort of shake people down for so we get to the theater um you know on my birthday and uh my first day of school and and I think like I'm actually making something in my life I'm here in Russia but me being the [ __ ] up that I am I forgot my papers because I'm just a just you know unadulterated [ __ ] and I said to Max man I'm so sorry man I forgot my papers you know I'm uh and he said okay well we got to go back and get them and I said nah man let's just go into school and and we'll do it the next day he said no they're not gonna let you into the school without your papers let's go back and get them I said look man I'm a grown ass man let me go back and get my papers my

43:33you don't have to come with me you just took me here so I convinced him to let me go by myself and then again me being the [ __ ] that I am and everything's in Cyrillic I couldn't read anything I got completely [ __ ] lost and I just had no idea where I was I'm three days in Russia I'm I'm I'm it's getting dark I'm screwing up I finally make it back to my place I get my papers I make it back to the school but now I've missed the first day it's like completely dark and I'm on the wrong side of tiverskaya which is like this Main Street about 16 lanes and I got to get to the other side to get to school and I just start kind of like like Frogger I'm like dodging cars like a tall [ __ ] I'm like I can't get to the other side as soon as I get to the other side boom AK-47s in my face Russian police are right there they get me for crossing

44:19you're supposed to cross below I didn't know that they're yelling at me in Russian I give them you know 20 rubles they let me go and I'm just like just such an [ __ ] it's my birthday I've missed my first day I don't know what the [ __ ] I'm doing and so I do what any good American would do I go and treat myself to a meal at McDonald's right so I go and I get myself some McDonald's Happy Birthday to me you're a [ __ ] up right then I'm going back that night and I'm back in particle tour and I'm walking down the street I'm all by myself it's pitch black out it's cold as [ __ ] and I'm walking down the street and this um Mercedes pulls up in front of me and these two guys get out of the front seat and they reach into the back seat and they grab something out and I see it's this woman uh with with beautiful red hair

45:04and they she's in like a like beautiful cocktail dress and they're pulling her out of the back seat of this uh Mercedes and I'm the only one on the street and they clearly don't see me but this woman sees me and she makes like Direct eye contact with me and they're pulling her out of the side they're pulling her out of the vaccine she's not fighting them but she's not helping them either she's just like completely limp and just being dragged they take her over to this building and they just start like opening her head up against the side of this building they start smashing her head so I like forgot where I was and like I ran at this guy and I grabbed him in English I'm like man what the [ __ ] are you doing what are you doing and I just pulled out a gun he just put it like right to my forehead and he said in English he's like go away like that and

45:53and and you know Joe I knew like in an instant man I knew in an instant that like it was like I was a bug like I was a bug like that was a different you know I met I'd seen guns before I'd seen stuff before I just knew that this was a completely different level and so you know I walked away listening to that listening to what they're doing and and I was like day three so that's on the brutality side of it but I think conversely on the on on the beauty side of it you know there was just it was it was it was a culture that I found like completely free of pretension you know if you have a conversation with somebody you really have a conversation conversation you look in the eye and there's no hey how you doing hey I'm doing great there's no [ __ ] um it wouldn't be strange or weird for to have somebody break down in tears in

46:43your first meeting and talking to them and not because they're sort of like emotionally fragile or weak but because they're just so honest and in the moment um I I I saw this unbelievable National appreciation for the Arts uh I I saw people who uh you know you go on the Subways and and people weren't reading you know US Weekly they were reading bulgalkov and Tolstoy it's an unbelievable unbelievably literate uh Society um yeah I don't know man I'm I'm I'm so grateful for my time there and um it yeah it really you know all my and that place really really saved my life how bizarre is it for you now to see this conflict that we're going through with Russia and Ukraine and the United States involvement having spent time there I you know I I feel horrible uh I'm I'm devastated for uh you know my friends there I'm devastated for for um

47:50it's it's such a different it's such a different Moscow it's such a different Russia than than what I knew you know there was there was a free press there when I when I was there it was it was like you know I felt it was the Wild West man it was it was everybody was exploding you know in this this new freedom and um it it was uh such an optimistic you could feel the fragility um you know if if if if somebody if if you bump somebody's foot by accident standing on a sidewalk they they have to step on your foot it's like a Russian tradition so if like you bump into somebody that they have to bump into you back um if if there's a line you know a lot of people just didn't believe in lines so like somebody will just cut right in front of you you know I remember when there was the um the situation at the Russian theater there's a hostage situation

48:51um where they just kind of went in and those people were being held hostage so they put in gas and they just kind of killed everybody um I think there's something about you know I had a friend who was in the FSB a young young guy and if there was an issue with the police if we were being loud or somebody was trying to shake us down you know I had this 21 year old friend who was in the FSB and this 21 year old kid you know could could yield such unbelievable power just by FL like put the fear of God in in Soldiers with guns like that and and that's something I I don't I don't know that we have an equivalent of that I saw that there was um I remember them talking about Putin and and with George Bush at the time I remember there was that thing and like you know I looked into his soul and it's like a great man and we really connected there were there was

49:45there was this thing that there was an understanding among moscovites that he would just toy with this guy and things like deception and things like manipulation were things that were celebrated in in a lead in a leader they weren't you know we do the same [ __ ] but we we're not allowed to talk about it we're not allowed to celebrate it it's Un-American but but that style of being being um ruling with an iron fist uh you know you it was still that was still very celebrated and and many Russians I I think really scribe to that so so uh I I guess I'm heartbroken you know I'm heartbroken uh and and uh I'm heartbroken for all the people that you know all the all the young men that that have fled and left and the families that are being torn apart I'm heartbroken uh for what's going on in Ukraine um but but I guess I'm not I'm

50:39not that surprised you know hmm the the strong leader that that is such a a big part of Russia and to have this uh powerful leader who leads with an iron fist that seems to be something that they embrace it's a part of the culture it's a part of the history of that part of the world absolutely and making hard decisions and and and understanding that things you know aren't clean I mean look at you you you know I think many Russians would would look at you know you know World War II and the way that they handled that war and the way that they approached that war militarily you know was uh you know I don't I don't know how it's interesting I don't know if that would fly here but but but what look what they're doing in Ukraine when they have these mobile crematoriums and they're just taking the Russian soldiers to die and just yeah

51:36and I mean have a count of the bodies there's not even an accurate count of casualties and and and and and look I I you know I think you know one gun for every Five Guys in World War II you know pick up you know when that guy dies pick up the gun um you know I I but look you know you you look at the the way Patton approached uh you know the arm the the armor units in in World War II you know our our tanks you know couldn't couldn't compete with the Germans tanks they just couldn't compete they looked at those tanks they said there's just no way that uh that a Sherman can compete with a tiger it's just not gonna happen well I know what we'll do we'll bill five times as many so yes that's an unbelievable uh achievement of uh American industry an unbelievable achievement of of the war effort back home an unbelievable achievement of the engineers that were

52:29on the front line fixing those tanks but the you know what's what's the other side of that it takes five Sherman tanks to take down one Tiger tank so we're just gonna produce five times as many but think about all those tank units what does that mean for the men in inside those tanks you know what what does that mean you know that means we have to put in five times as many people and that when they go we got to get new unit out there you know and that's it's it's it's very similar you know it's a totally different mentality than what we're accustomed to that's right and the way we think of war and we think we we think of sacrifice and casualties I think so yeah they just seems did it seems to be a part of the culture and it seems to be something that they don't have a problem with yeah I mean I you know whether they have a problem with it or not

53:16um that's probably not the right probably yeah yeah right I mean like I don't know you know it's you know I've had one uh friend of mine I can't use his name but I've had him on the podcast a couple of times you know from from Russia and he's he's Ukrainian and his family's in Ukraine sort of just telling us what's going on on the ground what the sentiment uh is in in Russia at the time and um yeah I think for for a lot of people there who who are who are able to sort of like ignore the propaganda and look Beyond it and and try to get to the truth it's I mean he he looks very much at his own culture and his own government as a Cancer and he he looks at at Putin as an absolute criminal and you know he's he's saying that you know he's he's risking his life by saying that um and how how Putin deals with his political foes and um and you know it's I mean even as I

54:17you know my my gratitude you know to to that place and to that culture it's man it's it's Limitless to me you know it's like they again I I you know I'm I'm able to do what I love and and uh and feed my kids and and and and and and and and have a family and and I'm so grateful for it and it wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for there and and I'm just uh I just I I don't know how this is gonna end I don't know how it ends I don't know how it works itself out you know and um I hate you know I hate that how do they get objective information over there how do they get past propaganda yeah so it's a state-sponsored and stay controlled everything right and and and again look I want to be I'm no I'm no expert you know I mean I've I've talked to the people that I've talked to and and I know for this um you know for for my one dear friend

55:17um you know he is um able to access free internet with you know real internet open internet and that's how he's getting his his information but I don't think that that's an easy thing to achieve and um contact with people in Ukraine the disparity in what the the the the the the propaganda and the the the the national sort of news outlets are saying versus what people are saying on the ground um you know and then I I think what was huge is is this this this draft you know that this was just supposed to be a military exercise and then all of a sudden people are being you know called and look it is it's a one thing I'll say about being there that that um you know really affected me as well is you know I've I've been to so many countries as I'm sure you have and there's everybody has this sort of like nationalistic people love their country

56:11people want to celebrate their country you know in Russia I'd never seen anything like it except for here you know like if are you a strong man okay good then you're a Russian man you know you are you you you're a good I played uh I played uh pro baseball while I was there which is you know definitely not a big big achievement at all but you know you're a good baseball player you're a Russian baseball player you're you're you're you're you're you're you're a good actor you're a Russian actor I mean it's just like good and quality it's and and I think we have that as well and I've never really quite seen that sort of yeah unadulterated just absolute um you know love and reverence for their country um that that I had in in really in in America the unique quality of their Combat Sports athletes speaks to that culture yep because I mean Fedor

57:10Emelianenko one of if not the greatest heavyweight of all time came from Russia I mean that the Dagestan region that produced uh Islam makachev and khabib nurmagomedov and and you know Uncle I have and so many Elite Fighters and the the caliber of the athlete that comes out of there both in wrestling other Combat Sports boxing I mean they're just very very exceptional which speaks to the the like this the quality of the character of the people that come from that culture yeah I think I I think too you know when you when you when you talk about the traces of of Soviet times here you you had uh you you owed it to your country you know to be the you know you you weren't there for your own sort of achievement or your own uh what you know money that you're trying to put on the table your own Glory you know it was about your country it

58:09was about something bigger and and um see I think people will suffer for that uh you know you have in the same way one gun for every one weapon for every five men you know you gotta work harder and I I think that that's something that's really come up in this draft too I think that even people who are adamantly against it do feel like they you know why should this other Russian man die in my place so I'm I'm yeah I'm gonna go did you ever watch the documentary Icarus I didn't but I I'm I'm meant to it's a crazy marriage it's insane but it's a big part of it is about the doping that went on during the Sochi Olympics which was all completely state sponsored where they swapped out they they literally put performance enhancing drugs in all of their athletes every single one of them they were the the ultimate goal was to achieve the highest level of

59:05performance in the Sochi Olympics to elevate Russia and to show Russian superiority and they managed to do this through this uh uh Gregory ruchenkov guy and he just by total habits dance runs into this guy who produces this documentary who's a cyclist and he decides that he wants Brian Fogle he wants to do this uh race completely clean and then he's going to go to Gregory and tell him like what what his goals are what he wants to do and this guy's supposed to be the head of the anti-doping agency in Russia but really he's it's [ __ ] he's the Doper yeah and so he tells him exactly what to do and how to do and how to cycle off and during that time then it gets revealed while they're in the middle of filming the documentary Brian who's a brilliant documentarian brilliant filmmaker just steps in [ __ ] just totally gets lucky

60:05and finds himself in the situation where Gregory and the Soviet Union or excuse me Russia is getting exposed for doping and he has to flee the country because he's a part of it so he comes to America and just completely spills the beans tells them exactly how they did it what they did and now to this day he's in witness protection and they're hiding him and there's assassination attempts on him he's he's completely [ __ ] and they've you know taken his family and taken all their money and pulled them out of their homes and it's it's a wild chaotic thing but it shows what kind of commitment they have to this idea of Russian exceptionalism and and Russian conquering in in sport and how far they'll take it if you reveal and if you go against them and yeah you know look you know I was in uh I was in a car the other day when when I landed here

61:01yesterday from Savannah and and the guys that we were just talking about awesome we're talking about Texas and and he was just guy was from El Salvador and he was just like you know just like people people in this country just don't appreciate anything just have no idea it's the greatest country on Earth and like they just have no idea and and that really that really also was and and is my big takeaway for spending time over there you know just how unbelievably lucky we are here and and and I know I mean we started the conversation from out there about just how [ __ ] up everything is and of course it is but like look man I'm like a guy who [ __ ] puts on makeup and says lines for a living and I can get come on here you know the biggest platform in the world and we can talk about it and and you know the the the biggest threat you know

61:46to me is that like I'm gonna lose an acting rule you know what I mean it's like you know that's that's a real thing man and and I just think you know this country is just uh I I just think so many people in this country have no idea how good they have it and how how great uh you know to me it's the best country on Earth it certainly is and it's just we don't have a reference if you're here your entire life and this is how you view things you know like well this place is [ __ ] up that's right and it certainly is it certainly I mean we're human humans we're filled with all sorts of flaws and this culture and this the way our civilizations run it's filled with all sorts of flaws but it's the best example we have for a free Society that's right currently on Earth which is hard for people to believe especially people that look at all the

62:32inequality and look at all the chaos and look at all the all the things that are wrong with this country and there's certainly a lot it's still the best place agreed because it's the best place to communicate it's the best place to openly communicate that's why things like what we're talking about like with FBI being embedded in Twitter trying to suppress certain narratives it's so dangerous because that's what leads you to communist China that's what when when the state has total control over the narrative and then the people that are involved in financing all that and profiting from all that are the ones that put these people in power and then control how the masses behave and think and communicate it's leading us down this slippery Road and that's what scares the [ __ ] out of people and I think rightly so agreed agreed yeah I mean I and

63:25and I think we also at the at the the same time you know I I think we need to be vigilant we need to we need to be educated we need to look into these things and I think we also need to not jump to conclusions and I think we need to be very cognizant about you know who we're listening to and and and and you know honestly you know it's it's platforms like yours it's it's finding people that that we trust that we just know okay look this guy at least is telling his truth There's No Agenda behind it there's no they're not trying to convince you of anything it's it's so unbelievably vital uh to to to hang on to that and and to know that people do have their hands in this information they don't do they have any kind of podcasts like this in Russia I mean is that even possible I don't think so man I mean again like I'm not you know I

64:11remember when I was there uh you know there was the Moscow times and and um you know there's the Exile you know you've you've had uh yeah you you know it was it was uh there was there was this explosion of of Free Press and really like Gonzo journalism over there you know and uh the the but I don't know to be honest with you man when I was there I was a little bit sickened by the the expat Community you know there was like there was a real um there was a real sort of like hedonistic uh I I mean look at I think probably a lot of it was me being kind of self-important and I was on this kind of like acting pilgrimage and I took myself super seriously but you know there's a lot of people that were going over there to um you know be with as many Russian women as they could and there's a lot of people going over there to sort of um I I felt pretty exploited that that

65:10they were exploiting and and and uh you know I I there was there was very distinct different moscows when I was there you know there was the Western version of of Moscow which was just you know totally different and and and then there was you know for me I just I what I think was so lucky is I was going to school with with Russians you know with with people you know you'd have you'd have kids who would bring their entire families down from the mountains from the [ __ ] for you you'd have like nine people in a little apartment and the whole family would be like cooking on a hot hot pot because this one kid had this opportunity to go to school there and it was this like level of support and encouragement and you know the relationships that I formed you know with these people we grew up so wildly differently that the connections were

66:00were so beautiful and uh um you know you had um you you know yeah I just uh I don't know I was just re I was really lucky that I got to be in Russian in Moscow that way and and uh that's that's that's not an easy thing and I'm I'm worried about uh whether that's even possible now did you learn Russian so yeah I mean when I when I was there especially playing baseball you know none of those guys spoke in the English I had a translator in school but um yeah I got all right I got it right I mean one thing I've noticed that you know when I'd come home you know when I'm around Russian people I always try to speak a little a little Russian and there's just this you know there's just this this I don't know whether it's Pride I don't know what it is but I'll I'll throw out a couple words and they'll just answer in English

66:44like [ __ ] you [ __ ] I learned your language I don't hear your [ __ ] pig brushes who do you think you are [ __ ] you know like and and but you know like while you're there like people there were people that you knew spoke spoke English and they just would refuse to speak it over there interesting yeah did you learn how to read it a little bit that was that that was harder I mean like if I really you know take my time but I mean I you know at that point I could barely read English you know I mean I was just such an [ __ ] I mean I remember when I was there you know we'd have these things called Black Tuesday and and all the teachers would would you would come in and they would sort of tell you whether you could continue or not and they would kind of each break you down about like your

67:24strengths and your weaknesses and you would just see people just crying their [ __ ] like being devastated walking out of there and I remember you know I walked in there once and and these teachers were like uh John you're uh they're like John your talent is like a gem but uh they're like you completely but it's completely unformed you lack any semblance of Elegance and you know like they're saying this thing like push the you know like they're they're saying and then like you got the trade like you're waiting for like the shoe to drop with the translator and then they're like we bet you've never read a book and I was like yep gotcha I've never you know like in Bingo you know what I mean and then they're like you know from this moment on net never never let there be another day where you're not reading a book and

68:07and I took them up on that you know wow I took them up on that and she really really was some of the best advice I ever got how do we shift that over to here dude gotta read yeah gotta [ __ ] read you gotta take in other people's perspectives and work it's a dividal part of being a human being that's right and it takes a while for people to understand and read that or understand and and you know take that in it's uh it's so important for The Human Condition and it's such a an unbelievably available resource here in America and yet people would rather go on Tick Tock that's right it's it's such a hard thing to encourage too because it requires discipline and if you're not raised with discipline if it's not a it's not incorporated into you very early it's it takes a Monumental shift in the way you think about life to

68:58incorporate that how do you do that with your with your children well fortunately my kids have been around me when I've been you know during the time that they're alive I've been at my most disciplined and most best you know thank God they weren't around me when I was 21 right you know and they they're seeing the example of someone who works hard and works all the time and it has a lot of discipline and also wants to talk to them about things and I want to talk to them about the value of difficult things and about failure and about uh like sports they're involved in sports which I think are very important to kids you certainly can develop [ __ ] through sports but I think there's something about winning and losing and effort and reward for that effort that's a vital part of being a human being and through that through

69:52Sports and through any difficult thing you develop your human potential I think you only find it through struggle you only find it through a difficult thing to acquire or a difficult thing to accomplish and then doing that and recognizing that your boundaries are actually movable and that the boundaries that hold you back now are not permanent they're just they speak to your state at the moment but that state you can advance that state and you can you can do things to make your perspective more nuanced and enhance it and and I you know hopefully they can learn from that but there's also the problem that they're growing up in a loving household they're growing up you know the examples they have as people that are very kind and nice and I think you do need to be exposed to a certain amount of [ __ ] to understand the

70:39full scope of human beings no question and and I feel I feel so much of you know you know my job as as a father is is creating this kind of adversity in my kids life I have to and then I I need my my my children to learn the lessons that I've learned I I just really can't have them learn it the way that I learned right you know because that it could have gone anyway and most of the time it doesn't go the way you went that's right yeah it's like if you get a hundred kids and you thrust them into horrible environments very few of them come out to be this this person who has forged themselves through the fire of adversity most people succumb unfortunately I I think that's right and and I think most people also don't have I mean look I I mean through all the trouble and all the [ __ ] that I got into I had a loving supporting family who had

71:33my back and I think that's when I when I think about the inequality in this country I mean one one of the main themes and what I'm trying to do with this podcast is just I've seen firsthand how the legal system how how so many of the systems that are in place you know people who don't have that infrastructure it is so grossly [ __ ] unfair and they don't have an example to go off of one of the things about human beings is we imitate our atmosphere that's right and we become accustomed to seeing people work hard achieve things and people that are kind and ethical and honest and we we look at that as like that's a value that I want to Aspire to achieve and if you don't have that around you and all you have around you is crime and drug-ridden streets and gang violence and you don't know any other way to think or behave you don't

72:19you don't have an example of it and there's very little effort done to change those neighborhoods I mean if you look at the amount of effort and the amount of resources that we pump into other countries we pump into the military and pump it to all these various things we always seem to have money for it imagine if you're a child and you're being raised in this community that it's essentially been the same way for decades and decades with no help that's right it's very you feel like an outsider and you feel not only you feel like the system is rigged in many ways it is it is I I I couldn't agree with that yeah I couldn't agree with that more and I think you know in terms of in terms of our children it's it's you know how do you how do you get to them to to see that understand that experience it experience it a little bit uh but but but but but

73:11but also you know understand those inequities and and and and and try to inspire them to to to do something about it and and and I I think for me it's it's just again you know we people talk about you know like masculinity and and you know this this term that gets thrown around all the time like this toxic masculinity and whatever the [ __ ] that means and you you know I just think that again it's like what are the examples that we're putting forward and what what are the examples of of of people you know as fathers what what kind of men are you surrounding yourself by what are the things that are important to you and I think it's it's not uh to me at least it's not you know some sort of rejection of these classically masculine traits I I I think that you know having the ability and understanding you have the responsibility to keep your family safe

74:08is is is absolutely essential in in being a man in in in providing uh I I think having a healthy relationship with violence having an understanding of it I think um you know teaching your kids to to have a relationship with violence where we're we're you know they're not being ruled by fear or shame but they can have some sort of understanding some sort of um some sort of uh you know they can touch it they understand it a little bit they know what they're doing I think it's essential um and I also think you know being accepting being kind being open uh you know being generous being empathetic are also uh uh uh you know part of being a man and and I think that you know oftentimes because so many of the people I think who who um you're kind of leading the charge on on and who have you know so much sort of have so much of the platform at

75:06their disposal are kind of leading in these sort of toxic ways where it's all a bunch of bombasts and [ __ ] and to me you know like it's been my experience you you know folks who really know what they're doing in in that World um really don't need to you know show off about it at all you know the people that are high Achievers they don't really have to beat their own chest and I think that's right blow their own horn I think that's right yeah what we think of as toxic masculinity is really a bunch of losers so a lot of it is like the worst example but you you could get the same you know there's no term toxic femininity right but there's there's toxic human beings and some of them happen to be male and some of them happen to be female but it's not an indictment on male you know the male gender of the speech issues that's crazy

75:51right and the idea that you don't need men that's somehow another like the female is the future I was like what are you talking about that's crazy you need a balance there's a yin and yang in this life for a reason that's right all of it goes together that's right just everybody has to do better that's right yeah and I think that's something that I've really you know go you know on this this thing that I'm trying to do I'm I'm really just trying to to put up examples of that men and women who who again really really walk that walk and and are not leading with sort of just you know and trying to give whatever platform I have to those kinds of people who are real examples of that what was your Your Big Break as an actor do you think it was The Walking Dead was that was the big one yeah I mean uh you were [ __ ] great in that oh thanks

76:36you played such a good creep such an [ __ ] right yeah yeah but it was so believable like all of it was so believable thanks man it was really good thanks I mean I I think that um it was the the for me it was the um the perfect the the perfect role the perfect time in my life these things just like uh they really they really could you you know married each other uh you know I I've been busting my ass for about 10 years before that and just failing miserably you know I think a lot of people think that you just like you know that that I'd been doing it for a long time um but I was still really a a pretty big [ __ ] up Joe and I and and um I was hitting brick wall after brick wall in in my life I was kind of a [ __ ] back I wasn't I wasn't uh I wasn't a good boyfriend uh I was um I was still um you know and having having episodes of

77:32of violence on the on the street of still getting into street fights still getting into trouble um I was uh drinking way too much um on uh July 3rd 2009 I was out I lived in Venice Beach and uh I um every July 4th we had like a really big July 4th party and uh I was walking my dogs in in Venice Beach and um I uh I I stopped because I saw there's there's like a big house party it was this thing called First Fridays in Venice where people could drink on the street and I saw this older couple and they were playing the didgeridoo uh you know the didgeriders okay so they're playing boys and uh yeah so they were playing the didgeridoo and they were probably like a couple in their 60s and I saw this one guy outside the party it was kind of like a ringleader who's dancing around drinking 40s you know they're kind of like want to be tough guys and and uh

78:25the guy went over to the woman who was playing the didgeridoo and he lifted it up and he like put it on his crotch so it looked like this old woman was like blowing his crotch and I remember just like looking at her uh her uh husband and he was just like broken and like I saw this couple like they had to pack their stuff up and it was just like and I don't know Joe I like there was like something about that like I was drawn to like I was supposed to see it that day and I like saw red and like right at that point uh that same guy um he he called my dog over my dogs are super well trained and I I walked them I didn't they weren't on their leash and there's one dog named boss this great pit bull and he's like oh my gosh look at that dog we're probably 50 yards away and he called the dog over and boss went over to him and the guy's like

79:17pet my dog and kind of like roughing up my dog a little bit just kind of like man handle him because he's a big pit bull whatever it was and I called my dog back and the guy uh the guy held on to him and didn't let him come back to me and uh again man I you know some part of me wanted this to kind of happen you know and and and I went over to him and I grabbed my dog and I just I was like boss let's go and I pulled my dog away and he's like hey man get off my dog and uh you know one thing kind of led to another but I started to walk away and him and a couple of his friends started to follow me and he pushed me in the back and uh I turned around and I hit him with a right hand and um he got knocked out standing up and he fell down and he he cracked his head on the pavement and uh his friends all kind of jumped on me I tried to put my back against the

80:09tree and do what I could but they started to get the better of me um police came and uh you know long story [ __ ] long you know um you don't look like like he wasn't they're taking him away I was like sitting there handcuffed to the side some friends of mine came I got them to get my dogs out of there but you know I'm on the side there's police everywhere people are like from that party pouring beers on my head and I'm just kind of sitting there and then they they took me down to Pacific Division and the guy still wasn't waking up and um you know I'd gotten in trouble in in the past in Washington and and uh you know that the police were just saying like hey man like you know if he doesn't wake up that's that's that's that's kind of that and uh you know I was handcuffed to this bench in the Pacific Division and I remember

81:05just really having to take a piss and uh you know nobody was letting me and uh they you know they were kind of giving me [ __ ] about you know what's gonna happen if this guy doesn't wake up and I remember sitting there on that bench that you know if this guy doesn't wake up and I'm going in that direction now I knew and it was as clear as any thought I've ever felt that I I was going to have to sort of get in touch I was going to have to be the devil I was gonna if I was going that route all this acting [ __ ] all this this friends and fun it's over I gotta go be the worst and most vicious part of myself if I'm going through that door and it wasn't like something like trying to steal myself or act like I'm you know man I'm nothing special but I was I was as sure of anything that that's what needed to happen and it was clear and I wasn't

82:00scared I just knew it but then my next thought I just looked up and I was like but if you can just get me out of this and I remember just saying it if you can just get me out of this I swear to you like I am done like I am done and I will dedicate my life to my lady I will dedicate my life to my work and I will dedicate my life to you and I will dedicate my life to service like I will dedicate my life and you know literally man I'm not trying to you know one second later cop came by and said the guy woke up and uh man that could have gone yeah anyway and and I know again you asked me about walking dead but literally one year after that July 3rd 2010 I was on set of my first season of Walking Dead and you know not drinking focused engaged to be married had my first kid on season two um and and again man you know I'm I'm I'm like so like profoundly

83:12like humbled by that and grateful for but I'm also like aware of like how unfair it is that so many people don't get that shot and it doesn't work out that way and uh but yeah you know like getting to then kind of play a role like that that had a real beginning middle and end kind of like built in you know it was uh and and at a time in my life where I just totally stripped all the fat out of my life the people I was hanging out with the way I was behaving I got ridiculously disciplined pretty much about every part of my life and um yeah so it was so yeah I'm sorry it's such a great news answer but it's it's Walking Dead but it was also that time at Walking Dead and the people that I was around and what that what that all meant but yeah it was um you know my life completely completely and utterly changed there and I think the sad thing is man it's not like that

84:12was the first time that happened I mean I had so many times where I should have learned that lesson so many times and and because I had some wiggle room because I had people looking out for me because I came from a family with a father who was engaged and and you know had the means and and and and uh the ability to to help me out and and that that is so you know vastly unfair and and it's a reason why now I mean it's like on the show it's like wow why we're hanging out and spending time with so many people in this Lop Community with a life without parole community in prison and these guys who you know like me I [ __ ] up you know made a horrible mistake did something did something without a doubt inexcusable but you talk to some of these guys and they have this fluency with their shame this fluency with they've spent so much time living in in their

85:09in in in the vowness of what they've done that they they they they they they they they this they've spent so much time like empathizing and and putting themselves in their victims shoes um that they they are different people 20 years later than the crime that they committed and their entire life now is dedicated to service it's dedicated you know this elwak community in Calipatria prison that we hang out with um you know they've really changed so much of the culture in that prison that was one of the most violent prisons in all of the State of California and California prisons are notoriously violent in this community they they broke down the racial walls you know they're they're this this elwat community this group these these guys who basically have a living death sentence they've all banded together it used to be you know you're you're in a

86:04different car like you're in a different race you can't even you know talk to each other but These Guys these multi-racial group of men have gotten together and they provide support for each other they have programming they have hope uh my friend Brett may you know who's been on the show he's a paralegal now he's gotten his degrees you know he was part of the felony murder rule you know he was part of a home invasion where someone was murdered and and he didn't pull the trigger but he was there and uh he got life without parole and you know when you when you when when you talk to him when you talk to him about the the how much time he has spent thinking about the horror that those people must have felt when they woke up and knew he was in the home and how just utterly disgusted and ashamed he is now look I'm not I'm not advocating

86:56to forgive him I'm not advocating that anybody should free him I'm not Advocate but I am advocating that we can learn from him and that we should listen to him and and Jesus such a dedicated father and and and and and he's he's he he puts all his life now into helping other people who are coming in with this sentence that you know if you go into prison and you have that sentence what are you going to do I mean what do you got to do there's no reason not to there's no reason not to engage in violent Behavior there's no reason not to try to put money in your you and your family's pocket that way and he goes right to those people and he leads them to a better place I'm a huge believer that only people that really have been in that Valley you know can lift others out of it you know and uh I'm I'm deeply inspired by him man deeply inspired that's wild

87:51that's it's so true what you're saying about there's moments in your life where things could have tipped one way or the other and that's a giant percentage of the people that are locked up but they could have had an opportunity to turn their life around but there was nothing and they didn't have the infrastructure the people around them or the power the money or that you know they've been generations of people that that that that that that have been held down and uh you know it's real and and and you know we we had uh we had a guy on a couple weeks ago Richard McKinney he said he was a man who uh he was Marine he was forced recon and and uh he was he was overseas you know during 9 11 and uh he developed this like unbelievable hatred for Muslims and uh he he uh there's a beautiful documentary coming out called stranger at the gate that's that's

88:57that's about his life and uh so he you know even the guys in his unit were like hey man you got you got to come down with that [ __ ] and then um I believe he got injured and then he came home he's from Muncie Indiana and uh he just had this like unbelievable hatred of Muslims and uh it just ran kind of everything in his life and uh at the same time the Muslim Community in Muncie was growing there's this wonderful woman who worked at the uh created something called the Muncie Islamic Center and she's this woman who's bringing it she brought in over 157 um Muslim uh refugees into America and uh he was seeing more and more Muslims in the community it was driving him crazy um so he devised a plan to go and blow up the mosque and uh he was gonna go blow up this islamics Henry built a bomb he uh he he worked on the plan for over two

89:49years and uh walked in built a bomb walked into the center and uh when he walked in there he was met by that woman Bibi and uh she greeted him in this way that he had never seen before and uh she invited him she gave him a Quran and um he really wanted to read it he really wanted he thought that he was going to find proof in this Quran that that that uh that that that all these people just wanted you know Americans dead I mean that's that's just what his mindset was so he felt like he had sort of won so he decided to leave that day and come back still with this plan to blow up the Islamic Center on a Friday where there would be 200 people there then the woman invited him into her home and and cooked for him um now years later he's a devout Muslim whoa they are like family and I had both of them on the on the podcast

90:45um man it's it's uh oh [ __ ] yeah and and I don't know man it's just like we we're we're so we're so ready to say you know [ __ ] you we're so ready to just slam the door on people and I don't know look man you started the conversation you know some of your favorite people in your life are people really [ __ ] up when they were young you know I don't know man I think you you your capacity for going in that Valley again is directly relative to your capacity to lifting others out of it and and your capacity to create havoc directly relates to your capacity to create good and connection and growth and uh I really I really believe that you know this is amazing that one person who is of considerable character and love can change the way that guy thinks about things man I'll tell you you sit down with her and and brother in like

91:40two seconds you're like oh wait you're magic like what you're you know she's just one of those people and I asked her she would she would have him in her home and she would cook for him she's a wonderful cook and she'd have these huge meals and I asked him when you walked into her home when you ate her food were you still planning on blowing her up and her family and he said absolutely and I asked her knowing that now if you had known that then like how would you feel and she said look without missing a beat I still would have had him in my home still would have had him in my home and and that's my that's my job that's my job that's my duty wow holy [ __ ] it's crazy that's crazy nuts but it's real like when you see that when you see them together it's not there's like nothing put on there's nothing you know that he's not like

92:29you know it's so easily to sort of dismiss people as as Bonkers or like it but but you know I don't know yeah it's very easy to write people off but even people that are capable of great evil are also capable of great love it's just people people are oftentimes a victim of the thoughts that bounce around their own mind and of circumstance and of momentum and it's crazy how one moment of meeting one person starts a totally different path in this guy's life that's right that's right yeah so you go from this horrific moment where you might be locked up in jail for manslaughter for the rest of your life and then all sudden a year later you're on The Walking Dead you're on this which by the way that first season I think the Walking Dead kind of lost its way later on May I stopped watching it when it became like murder porn but the early

93:31Seasons especially like season one God damn was that a good show I mean it just captivated the the minds of people like because it was so obviously it's fiction and it's you know it's a horror movie horror show but it so speaks to The Human Condition when confronted with adversity and horrific circumstances you know what happens when you strip off the veneer of comfort yeah that you know dictates so much of our Behavior every day and uh you know it's really cool for me specifically to kind of play this character who was the first one that was kind of onto it the first one that was like you know these rules they don't apply anymore in this in this world and you can you know you can and look I think I think for me it's just a performer you know all the way around man is there was a wildness uh there was a recklessness that um

94:25I I really saw it after just kind of in my life and in my own behavior that that um I was really kind of addicted to uh but it always led me to um really kind of horrible ends and I was a real big [ __ ] up and and uh but I found something with with this where I could take all of that and and put it into work yeah and and it man it's been that's that's my sword depth of that character comes from right I mean that's that's the the advantage that you have of having all those [ __ ] ups yeah I mean I I I I think so and and the advantage of you you know I I also think I I be curious to hear what you thought about it but I I you know you know now you know you you are who you are it's like your intentionality I think intentionality is so important you know like where are you when when you begin like what is what is

95:20what is your goal like what what why did you start this thing in the first place and and always kind of going back to that and and to keep yourself honest you know when The Walking Dead started there's no craft service there's no it was like a bunch of us in the [ __ ] Woods it was like Frank Darabont he had done Shawshank Redemption he had tried to get the show on HBO they said no AMC had like Mad Men and Breaking Bad they're like all right we'll do your shitty little zombie show we'll pick it up for six episodes which basically means we don't really believe in this thing at all you know and but he got these group of people together and it was so humble and everybody's so and and the thing that's crazy about like a zombie show and and about like living in a different world like that there are rules right so if you put a bunch of

96:05actors in the woods and you have six people walking through the woods and if you make any noise the zombies could come if one [ __ ] actor is sitting there thinking about okay like do I look cool here or how's my makeup or if one person isn't fully committed you literally [ __ ] on the entire thing like it the the reality of that world is totally screwed and it just it was sort of this like Perfect Storm of people that were young and hungry and committed you had a bunch of people who are just starting families so there wasn't you know there's no like going to bars or restaurants or any of that [ __ ] it was just really really gratitude so lucky to be here let's make this who gives a [ __ ] if it's six episodes or 12 let's just make this work we all believed in Frank and and uh you know

96:46there's something really to that the intentionality behind it and and uh you know I I think that's often something you're not a baseball coach who who once said you know when you're at bat and things start spiraling out of control and and and and you know baseball's such a heady Sport and and you know when you start all of a sudden you start getting in your head and you start going down that spiral you need to step out and he would say remember why you did it in the first place like remember why you wanted to play baseball in the first place go back to the time when you were a kid when you just [ __ ] loved it and like go there and as long as it takes just go there then step back in the batter's box and and I I I really I I'm I'm asking myself that a lot now you you know because there's a lot you know how the conversation started doing this

97:31this podcast with me where you know I'm like why am I doing this like what what you know and and I keep on having to go back to that thing because it does man it comes it comes with a cost it and especially as the thing grows but I I I I keep going back to it's the people that I have on it's the people that I have on they're the people I want my kids listening to well you're doing an amazing job with it and I think having these crazy life experiences and these Journeys that you've gone on in your own mind it really works well because of that because you're very charitable and you you're very compassionate and it comes through it's it's very obvious that you have a a a more balanced view of what human beings are capable of than the average person for you know I appreciate you saying that man I I think I think I think mostly you know I just kind of I just kind of

98:28shut the [ __ ] up you know what I mean like I know that I'm not bringing on people that I don't know I I know them and we have really really close relationships so it's you know it's it's it's special forces soldiers and and and and Fighters and and um surgeons and and teachers it's it's you know they come from all but but every person within their own community it's not just that they have this job it's like I know them I know how respected they are in their own Community I know how much they've given me I know how much they've added to my life how much value they've put in and again it was coming in this vacuum when I just really saw [ __ ] man we were listening to the wrong people everyone's just like spouting out all this [ __ ] like these people know man these people know and um and I'm not saying hey they

99:15they're the end-all but on this subject they've been there I promise you that they've really been there and uh yeah I think it comes also just in the way that I work as an actor and and you know the greatest thing about what I I get to do is I get to go and you know we we go do Fury and and we get to talk to you know guys who are really in tanks in World War II yeah I mean there's like not that many of those those guys are the best Among Us you know I I got to you know we you know Kevin Vance that's where I met Kevin Vance you know Navy CEO just beautiful a man who who's just taught he's had such a deep impact on my life and and you know you know actors we that to me is everything and it it [ __ ] me up sometimes because I'm actually way less interested in in you know like what the director or the producer kind of

100:10think about what I'm doing I'm I'm just on those people and and that opportunity to to learn from those folks you know you you have somebody whether you're a vet or a police officer or anything you open up to somebody and you bring them into your world like that's sacred man that's that's that's that's that's a that's a trust that I I really really it I really value and and and really mean something to me um and it's again it's my sword and work like that that it gives you a North star in this in this kind of malleable weird thing where you've got so many different agendas at play and what people kind of want you know a film is super collaborative and everybody everybody's got their own kind of agendas there but but but you know if you can find some truth it's like man just just go try to do that you learn that trade learn how

101:01to handle that weapon learn how to coach that tennis you know like let you know learn that [ __ ] it's it's uh that's that's busy work that you can actually do you can if you put the time in you can actually achieve something it's not just hey man let's hope for the best I'll get it on the next take [ __ ] that I can't I just I don't have that I wish I could I don't have the stomach for that what do you want to do with your show I mean your show has picked up all this momentum your your podcast it's it's really gotten to a point where you have a big audience now and a lot of people are listening into it do you have a goal do you did you anticipate it growing to where it is now like would it when you first started doing it did you just do it say I just feel like this is something I'm compelled and then we'll

101:44see where it goes yeah I'm working with a group of people that I really believe in there's a there's a group of you know young filmmakers and and and podcasters that that that uh I really believe I think they share the the ethos of the show uh no man I I you know I think the what the goal is and what we're really trying to do is give a platform to the folks that come on and I don't mean on my shows what we're trying to do like that fishing show that I I mentioned my friend Kevin Vance is now going to go do a show where he's going around and he's talking to um he's talking to Special Forces uh he's talked to members of the community that he really knows and helped them deal with issues that they're dealing with we've got uh you know another show like like I told you about with the the readings that we're putting on with Sloss and Rec so I mean ultimately what

102:37I'm trying to do um you know there's the Silverback Chronicles which are uh two two career police officers in Baltimore that we had on their part their their group of cops in Baltimore called the Silverbacks or a bunch of all black um cops uh a unit there that are just totally pleasing for the right reasons respect to the community they're No Nonsense they've got a amazing podcast sort of about just you know the streets of Baltimore and you're involved in all these shows yes so our job is to give them the infrastructure and our job is to promote and help all of these different things so you're essentially like running a network you know that's what the guys that I that's the word that you know the guys that I'm working with keep using I I mean one thing about me Joe and it's probably the one area in my life I I remain just enormously

103:23sloppy I'm I'm not a businessman I'm just not I don't know how to really think that way um you know I ultimately you know I ultimately supporting these folks and and giving them this platform and then providing them that infrastructure that I can get behind and believe in um and as long as as long as people are still coming to us and wanting to there's people that I that that I'm really interested in speaking with I'm I'm going to keep doing it um but it's hard you know I I go to do a role and for better or worse I kind of have to shut down man I really do and and uh I'm not I'm kind of disgusted by by actors who just talk about the process all the time and it's really not my bag it's really not something um but but for me there is a necessity to um it's the only way I know how to work is to kind of push everything else out so you know I I

104:30can't do this while I'm doing that so it's it's a really hard thing to navigate you know it's a really hard thing to navigate but what made you decide was that the people you're working with that decided to do all these additional shows as well yeah and I thought I want it to be more than just giving these folks a voice I want to you know my my um Sebastian Richardson people call them Bam Bam on the street uh it's from Shreveport Louisiana she reports uh I wrote a show about about Shreveport I've been going down there for about 10 years um Bam Bam was in uh super max at Florence Colorado he was in prison with Larry Hoover with El Chapo um you know he he was part of a he's part of a RICO case in Shreveport in this little neighborhood called the bottoms sort of legendary uh Street guy um who you know was extraordinarily violent um in prison

105:22um ended up in super Max and you know people don't get out of super max um he's part of The Marshall Project he was tortured in prison he was basically blinded there they kept him zip tied for I believe 253 days the skin started to grow over the zip ties because he was basically protesting how other prisoners were being treated so to get him out of his cell to eat every day he would just welcome it they basically gas him and beat him every single day um he ended up getting out now he's a minister uh it's an unbelievable guy he's dedicating his entire life now to um it to to the young community of Shreveport a city that's just ravaged by gun violence right now and um he's got a podcast so we're supporting that we're supporting his merchandise um you know um there's so much in that Community we've done a bunch of uh you know we go

106:11to the place we don't have them come to us so so we've done a bunch of shows in in Shreveport um you know I I again it's it's these stories I think are really worth being told you know um my friend my friend Alfred brown people used to call him goat he was kind of he was a guy who who ran this community was kind of I don't love the word but he's sort of a gang leader down in in in Shreveport in Louisiana in this community called the bottoms and uh got got busted on Rico charges ended up doing almost two decades in prison um since he's been out he's lost two of his daughters to gun violence since he's been out um you know goat's a kind of guy they call him goat uh he he's he's the kind of guy that you know back in the day you know he he could he he he could have you taken off the face of the Earth like really easily um now when this young man

107:09killed his daughter he testified on behalf of him and said putting it putting another black boy in prison is not going to bring my daughter back I open up my home to you I want to open up my church I want to show you that there's a better way and again that level of forgiveness that level of empathy that level of Rehabilitation um the potential that guys like Bam Bam and goat and big Don Ridge that you know these guys down in the bottoms their their commitment to to changing this cycle it's it's beautiful man it's everything I believe in and I've learned so much from these guys so much and I've also learned so much from Carl Townley who's the police officer that brought all these guys down and I've sat the two of them down together and and they have so much respect for each other wow you know and and uh and and they're just they're all just really

108:01really good friends of mine you know I love them all that's so crazy it is man it really is and what's crazy about it Joe honestly is like even like I I had my little brother on I've had all these people on it's I you know that's not I hate asking people to come on I I that part of is that that part of it is like I I think the worst I I just I hate asking people to come on that that that's like I don't know man I I think um a lot a lot of the folks that I have come on have never been on you know we shoot we shoot it with cameras like you know they've never been on camera before they're talking about things that are highly highly sensitive uh they're they're um they're going to places that are pretty dark to a person everybody I think it's been it's been a good experience um but that that's just a it's a that that's a real hard thing for me I I

108:55don't like uh I don't like you know asking that of my friends it just you don't like asking because you don't think they would enjoy it or do you think you're putting them on the spot you're putting them in a in a compromising position no I don't think I put I I think more the the um the second thing you said that that I I I know that with a lot of these folks it's it's just really hard to talk about a lot of this stuff and and and and it's really um I never I never want to feel like I'm burdening them yeah or taking something from them or using them in in in in some sort of way and then again you got to go back to that intentionality you got to step out of the batter box and you got to say okay what are you doing this for and then you remind yourself you know what is their experience after it's done yeah are they happy about it yeah yeah

109:52it's it's been across the board I mean the only people you know we we do it a little bit differently you know like I I since I've done you know I've been a part of so many interviews as an actor you know you're always you know there's all these forces that play where you got to be like careful about what you say which I just find is just so ridiculous and so much the antithesis of being an artist and and you know um so I say to everybody that comes on hey man we're gonna we're gonna give you the episode and anything that you want out it will take out you know um and the only people that have sort of given me a hard time about that is is actors you know obviously you know they're just like talking about nothing that's like at all bad at all but you know but yeah man I get it it's you know I try not to judge yeah it's amazing what some people are sensitive about

110:40yeah yeah but it's great though that most people the majority of people are having a good experience from it so it's coming through what you're trying to accomplish is coming through it's been wild for me you know like you know Bo and Jerry like start there like we want to start a fishing show we're like [ __ ] yeah let's go you know what I mean and and uh there's been so there's been so much of that and I I really do think there is this cathartic not just cathartic but there's just this human need to tell your story and I think these folks for so long have felt [ __ ] man I'm on the front lines of this [ __ ] like I'm on the front lines and [ __ ] I gotta listen to these [ __ ] spouting off like they know about policing or they know what it's like to come from a community like this or they know what

111:23it's like I know and and and and and and you know to a person it's been it's yeah it's been it's been wildly positive for people who are doing it kind of for the first time and uh yeah I'm real I'm I'm I love that I love that it's awesome that you're expanding this thing like you started it kind of on a whim and now it's kind of growing and expanding almost like it's a force of its own yeah I mean like it it it you know not it kind of It kind of has to be you know I I uh you know you know we had a we had George Christie on the other day who's uh he's he was the longest serving president the the the the the Hell's Angels he was the president of the uh Los Angeles chapter and then he started Ventura and uh yeah he's got this he's got this uh one-man show that he wants to put on that I just can't wait to to see you know I don't

112:15know I'm just so I you know I really do I don't mean to get all Kumbaya on you man but I I really do believe there's something about art and and performance that is uh you can really take you know it's kind of like what I was saying you know on a much smaller level with me and my own [ __ ] you know you can you can take all this stuff that's held you down that maybe you've caused pain to people you hurt people you [ __ ] up or you disappointed your family whatever it is disappoint yourself you you're an awful member so you can you can use all that [ __ ] yeah yeah it's cool and you can use it to go Reach people the pain that you felt is a real adhesive and you can you can latch onto them and they can see you know [ __ ] man I've been there like I I you know I've I've been there and maybe maybe

113:03you can stop them from making that huge mistake themselves maybe yeah and like they're certainly not going to listen to fight they're not going to listen you know the Punisher they're not gonna listen to my dumb ass being like hey you really shouldn't do you know but hey man here's a guy who just went down 30 years he's coming out of super max he's been where you were you know I mean one of one of the shows we had we we had you know Father and Son and the the father was in that life and now the sun is and they were just talking about like what that felt like what that felt like to you know have the police say when he was one years old you're never going to see your son again and now that this young man you know Rick he's got a he's got a little baby girl you know and she want you know and it's like Yeah by talking about it and then maybe potentially

113:43putting that out into your own sort of creative uh Forum you know your own creative uh expression you know maybe you know maybe that will maybe that will be you know being on Mission you know maybe that will do something what certainly has the potential and it's certain there's there's certainly a door open for good and a a door open to give people a chance potentially yeah that's it's uh well that's where it all comes from right that potentially that word potentially that's hope you know that's something that's that's a a window of opportunity that didn't exist previously and I think through this intention that you have and through this very charitable view of human beings that you have you're you're projecting that and you got to think of the hundreds of thousands of people that have watched that and taken that in and then they can

114:36incorporate a piece of that in their own life like inspiration through things like that is so vital it's so important for people to see how a person can make these charitable decisions and make these these you know views of people in the best possible light and give them an example or give them an opportunity to to show their best best possible self it's so huge man it's like it's one of the things that's missing in in mainstream culture you know our our culture in terms of the way we learn about information and stories is so polarizing and it's just looking for bad people it's looking for evil things or looking for propaganda to pretend that people that are doing evil things are actually good it's it's an amazing thing you're doing it really is I think it's [ __ ] beautiful I really appreciate you saying that man I mean and look I mean you know

115:32not to just throw it back your way man but if you look at you know this in this incredible you know Monumental unprecedented thing that you've built I mean I think you know all yes it's it's it's deeply entertaining but you're also like I don't know man I I that this desire to to get to to get better to to to to to find new avenues to be curious to to dig in I mean that's that's to me that's that's really what this this show is and it's you know and and for me it's one of the most hopeful things I think about our culture right now that this now has become such a stall I mean it's the biggest thing in the world you know and and and and I I just you know it's it's it's enormously it's enormously inspiring and you know pretty surreal just to be here thank you I appreciate it it freaks me out I bet it's surreal how do you prepare man I really am

116:28interested in that like it depends on the person okay can you give me some examples well for you um I'm a fan of your work and I'm a fan of what you've done with your podcast so I kind of just wanted to talk to you okay so it wasn't much preparation with you I just was like this guy's cool as [ __ ] I want to sit down okay uh with other people like with certain scientists or certain people that are dealing with uh human rights situations I want to get an understanding of the scope of the problem that they're addressing and what they've been able to do like I had this guy Siddharth Cara on the other day who is exposing Cobalt mining in the Congo and it was probably the heaviest podcast I've ever done wow um it's it's so intense because it's such an insane problem it's such an insane problem that powers all the electronic

117:19devices that we use including electric cars and it's all essentially coming from slaves wow at the bottom of the supply chain is the the poorest people on Earth with no electricity breathing in toxic fumes because they're banging Cobalt out of these mines with hammers while they have babies on their backs holy [ __ ] it's so heavy it's the heaviest podcast I've ever done but by far like where it's like you're choking back emotions and tears while I'm listening to him talk and I'm trying to figure out how do I you know how do I steer this what do I you know what do I say next how do I how do I react to this what do I you know what more information can I extract from him and and he's just such a deeply committed person that has spent years of his life researching this and risked his life exposing this and I was really aware of this so first

118:19of all through Colton um which is the first thing that I was aware that they extracted from the Congo uh um through uh the stuff that uh the early days of Vice when they they worked on it and that was where I was first exposed to it that this is such a huge issue but I had no idea the scope of it until I started researching this uh in regards to that that podcast and that's one that was Heavy you know that's one that requires a lot of uh thinking about the problem and a lot of like looking at what it's actually like there and these people that have this is this is what it looks like this is a Cobalt mine in the Congo holy [ __ ] and you know the narrative by these electronics companies like Samsung and Apple is that they get everything through ethical sources like you can hear the Hammers clinking so with every Hammer that's clinking they're

119:13extracting Cobalt and also inhaling poisoning this poison dust it's poisoned their environment poisoned the rivers poisoned all the land it's horrific they live without electricity they barely make enough money for food there's no education there's no hope and everything is being guarded by Commandos who are trying to make sure that the public doesn't ever find this out because at the end of this is the most ethical and moral and Progressive companies like apple right which is so crazy hypocritical it's filled with hypocrisy it's so disturbing that that's the reality of the world we live in that if you have one of these somewhere a slave contributed to it there's no if ands or buts about it there's no way around it it's impossible to get ethically sourced Cobalt for these these phones and Cobalt is integral to the way the heat management

120:11the way it's uh the the way the batteries work it's [ __ ] like Beyond [ __ ] and people are trying to hide this information including the people that are running these enormous corporations they have to be aware of it Tim Cook has to know about this there's no way he does right and these people are reaping in immense profits how did he get like how did how did he get that information like how did he get that footage he went there he got that footage with his own phone that's his phone that took that footage he went there and risked his life and he had people that were sympathetic to the cause that that got him in and got him the proper paperwork and you know they had guns pointed to his head roughed up by thugs thinking this is the end and luckily got through all of it but barely and the stories that he tells about that journey and

121:03what it's like and and the passion in his the passion in his message to to try to get this out to people to try to illuminate this problem and to try to shed light on this situation is unprecedented it's uh I mean just an incredible person just an amazing person that has that sort of dedication to try to get that out and this is a guy that's also worked previously on human trafficking that was some other things that he exposed in his previous work so he's been dedicated to trying to shed life on these horrific situations in the world for decades God bless him yeah God bless him wow heavy yeah heavy wow you know so that's how I prepare depends entirely in the person with a comedian there's no preparation at all like maybe I'll listen to their podcast with Fighters it's pretty easy because I'm a John gigantic fan right and generally when I have someone on I'm

122:01very very aware of their their resume and what you've done you know so that's how I do it I just it depends on the person and what about your uh what about your level of like enjoyment I mean are there does it feel are there times where it feels like a slog or is there times when if when are there times when you're not into it are there times when you're extraordinarily excited about someone I mean imagine it runs a gamut or do you try to keep it is there something that you do to sort of have a steady and healthy approach to it well um hopefully I know enough about the person's ability to communicate that it's not going to be a slog and there's very few slogs but I've had a few where I took a chance on authors and had them come in and unfortunately they talk the same way they write where you know people write they're very deliberate and

122:48slow and sometimes people talk deliberate so that's brutal yeah because like as a listen it's very hard to follow along and so I'm trying to like pick up the page trying to do something aware of my own attention span and try to just Juice It Up and keep it going and is your is your are you in that moment are you like are you thinking about the audience are you thinking about you taking a moment like [ __ ] this is miserable miserable yeah I'm like if it's miserable for me it has to be miserable for other people because I'm here I'm looking in this person's eyes and also I'm curious about what they're talking about so I wanted to bring them in here because I have a personal interest in whatever this subject is sure yeah sure but most people it's not you know one weird question to people always says like who's your favorite

123:30guest or who is a person that you would want to get on the most and I I have the same answer there's no one I don't have a favorite guest and I don't have a person that I want to get on like I'm happy to talk to you as I'm happy to talk to Tim Dillon or Joey Diaz or whoever the [ __ ] it is like you know what Muhammad Bilal comedians Fighters uh Neil deGrasse Tyson whoever it is I'm happy to talk to people I like talking to people yeah it's I'm very fascinated by human beings yeah I'm fascinated by the wide variety of thought processes and life experiences and the way people view the world and through this thing I've had an you know an accidental education like a deep accidental education on so many different subjects because I started it out with my friend Brian we were just smoking weed on a laptop yeah you know just like just

124:22being silly and having fun we thought it'd be a fun thing to do and then slowly it started Gathering momentum and steam and started getting guests and then it became what it is now yeah and it's a lot of is accidental you know which is real weird I bet man it was real someone sent me a video of Times Square today this is gigantic LED or LCD whatever it is liquid crystal display huge JRE video that's playing in the middle of Times Square wow you know it's like [ __ ] 50 feet high or something I'm looking at that thing I'm like that is insane yeah that came out of a laptop in my office yeah [ __ ] around and having comedians come over and we do hits out of this Volcano Vaporizer yeah and get so obliterated we literally didn't even know what we were talking about while we were talking right just having fun with no pretense and no

125:21thought whatsoever that one day this is going to be the biggest media platform in the world if I ever said that to them back then they would have [ __ ] laughed in my face they thought I was an idiot even for doing it like why are you wasting your time right yeah you go from doing TV shows and stand-up comedy to this stupid [ __ ] what the [ __ ] are you doing and I didn't have an answer I don't know I didn't like I don't know what I'm doing it's fun just keep doing it yeah yeah catch a trip man and I think about you know just the the enormous amount of just people talking about you out there and you know like just your idea of like you know posting and ghosting and just like not and just just not being involved in it and just staying okay yeah and I think that too I I think you know for me when I have the

126:11mask you know when I have the the the the the armor of of going out there as a character you know man I'm I'm like [ __ ] it I'll go I'll do anything right you know I will [ __ ] do it and I always you know I'm not interested in anything safe I I'm like you know my acting style is like I want to create as much uh danger and I want to CR I want it to be wild and I want it to be unexpected and and my only way of judging whether we had a good day of work is whether like I completely you know created havoc on set and that it was electric and just like like I I live for that [ __ ] and so I always want to go as far as as I can and the the process the movies that I've been a part of or the shows that have been a part of where I've been able to push that envelope to scare people scare myself surprise myself tap into that wildness

127:02that's how I that's my only sort of barometer of of success um but now you know like going out there with this again with no aspirations of of it of it even going out there you know which is which is very [ __ ] weird for the first time you know getting real like real blowback like real like you you know and what kind of blowback oh man you know like uh uh so much you know you know I think that um you know look when we I had Shia LaBeouf on uh you know um after these allegations uh came out of him and um you know um being physically and uh emotionally abusive to uh to his to his girlfriend at the time and you know what was crazy was I I never wanted to have any actors on that was kind of like my rule just because and not because there's just so many podcasts where actors are talking actors and they're they're talking about

127:58and I'm actually interested in that [ __ ] but like I you know like nobody needs to hear me talk about that right but um Shaya at the time uh you know he he was a guy that you know when we did Fury together you know that was such a wild experience and you know he you know he was this guy who came in he like pulled his tooth out because he thought his character shouldn't have a tooth you know he like cut his his face you know he didn't shower for eight months and at first when I met him I was like this guy's just [ __ ] he's just loud you know he's just he's he's he's he's wearing his process on his sleeve showing everybody how hard he's working but what I found you know after the eight months of working with him with somebody who and I you know and this is it's just my own and he he is every bit this thing is every bit as

128:56vital to him as it was with me I found a real partner I found a real kindred spirit I found that he was so [ __ ] cute he was he was willing to risk it all for for for for for this for the work and I I walked away with like an enormous amount of respect for him and love for him I also saw a guy who grew up as a child star um a guy who was um felt like he needed to bleed out for his art felt that he needed to live wildly out on the street and in real life in order to sort of maintain that danger in his work and uh I'm coming from a guy you know me at this point where I did all that when I I didn't have the umbrella being you know a big movie star and I didn't I didn't have that but now I'm a guy who's absolutely a committed husband and father that that is my life like that like my life is my family and and what I found is the the well the things that I

129:51can tap into and my emotional sort of accessibility of being a dedicated father and and and and husband is is so much greater than when I was sort of this wild animal and uh and uh I care about people way more than I care about myself my ego is dead in that in that sense so I really wanted to be there for him and and the first thing I remember seeing him and seeing this like raw nerve and this unbelievable talent I I I I would say I think he's the best actor I've ever worked with and I really wanted to protect him and I think more than anything else I really wanted to show him what a real friend was like I just remember like saying that to myself I want to show you what a real friend is like I feel like you've never really had a real friend and my friends the guys that I grew up with um they've been my best friends my whole life they you know they you know I

130:45couldn't do anything without him I just like I value that so much right so we had him on the podcast um real early on and before this stuff came out and it was right at a time when he had gotten in trouble down in um in in Georgia and he went to rehab and he wrote this movie sort of about his own life called honey boy that got nominated for an Oscar and and he wrote it and he he started he played his dad it was a very it's a movie about his life and I kind of had him on sort of celebrating you know where he was at because for a long time he had taken a lot of [ __ ] from this industry and uh here he was sort of on top of the world and I remember at the time you know my my agents at the time were calling me being like you think I could just get a phone call with shy like maybe we could like bring him you know just he was like you know and then these

131:35these uh these chart you know this this woman said he did these things to him and he was just he was just done you know canceled and and um and I'll say man when I heard those I decided when I heard that that he had done those things you know for me there really is a red line with people that I need to look at with myself and through all the [ __ ] that I've seen all the [ __ ] that I've done man I I just I I can't be down with you if you put your hands on a woman if you put your hands on a woman or a child dude I just like yeah I can't man I can't I can't I can't get over that I can't and I heard this you know about my friend and you know I was really broken-hearted about it and time went by like two years and you know I know how much you know acting is not only important to him but like sort of necessary for his survival and I

132:34would reach out on text you know checking on him and and that but we hadn't made contact and then I heard that he was having a baby um and uh he was married and I reached out to him and um I said hey man maybe it's time for you and me to have another talk and I made a decision with my team and with him we're I needed again you go back to the intentionality and and I I really looked at this this role that you have being a friend and and being a friend is not about turning your back on somebody when they're when they do something that you find [ __ ] deplorable or when you find disgusting your job as a friend is to make sure they don't do it again and your job now as this guy's being a father is to to step in there and say hey man where are you at like what are you doing what kind of work are you doing where are you like that's what

133:33being a friend is and everybody in my life is like the worst idea in the world you cannot do that you cannot do that and then you know he came on man and and we spoke and uh you know I it was weird because I I found so many of the same themes and so many of the same the the heart of what I found in that elwop Community I found in in Shaya the level of disgust the level of work the level of commitment the level of Shame the level of uh time spent this fluency with with with his victim and I wasn't I had no interest in exonerating him or saying or saving him in any way I wanted to check on him and I wanted to see how he was doing and I I felt that that was an honest thing and you know just the fact that I had him on I got you know an enormous amount of of backlash you know an enormous amount of uh for the for really the first time

134:44kind of as like a public person just like kind of hatred um who could have you know who may have you know that that really hurt people and I felt [ __ ] terrible about that man like I like did you wish you hadn't done it no uh no because after talking to him and then going around and talking to women who have been victims himself talking to you know this one one woman specifically who we were going to have on but hurt she had health issues and couldn't but you know what what I've found is so many people have reached out who said like I was in that place like I I like I was in that place where he was I was in that place where I was whether I was abusive or not abusive I was getting there and and the drugs and the alcohol were getting the better of me and I mean really what you know he's he was two years sober at the time that I had him on and um and I

135:55I felt really what it was was like a real meditation and shame you know and I thought that you know what this woman said to me was you know with all there's so many places and platforms for women to go to their shelters there's places to go to to talk about the abuse to to to be there to help people after the fact but who is talking to these [ __ ] up young men who are committing the abuse who has talked to them and saying dude don't do that like I've been there there is another way this is not the answer stop go get help change your behavior and I just you know I I I I ultimately felt you you know that that what he said could have a real positive effect and I I believe looking back on it now again man it's like you know what are you gonna do you you can weigh the the the the comments of people I've told you you know you're the worst

136:55guy on Earth for doing it or you can weigh the comments of the people say hey man I that thing saved my life or you know I mean I I can't look at it that way I I look at the intentionality behind what the show was and what why why I decided to have him on and then why I decided to air it and I stand by it well good for you and um you know uncomfortable conversations with people where you think that what they did is horrific they're still important conversations it's it's a part of being a human being just like having these people that have committed murder and have gone to jail and have been drug Runners and criminals and having conversations with them about their journey and about retribution about their emerging from this and become a better person all that is important and and I think I don't know man I don't know how you feel about

137:49this but I I often I'm not sure exactly how to articulate it but sometimes the the tenor or the the the quality of kind of like the threat or the punishment kind of tells you all you need to know and and let me try to explain what I'm saying all these people that were saying you definitely don't have him on definitely don't you know the same people that before you know we're saying like hey just get me a meeting with him you know are now saying stay away from him at all costs right and and but without listening to him or what he he sort of has to say and the same people that were sort of applauding and getting behind the fact that we're giving a voice to folks who have murdered like you said have committed murder who have gotten to these you know have engaged in in super serious criminality and talking openly and honestly about it yeah you know

138:41they're sort of applauding that but they're saying stay away from this yeah and so it was clearly like you know the reason to stay away from it the reason to ignore it you know what would have been what you know career career safety you know like I can't you know right that you know like if you know what kind of message is that to you to your kids I had a conversation with my friend Brian Simpson yesterday who's a stand-up comic brilliant guy and uh one of the things we talked about was Will Smith slapping Chris Rock Chris Rock who's in our world is you know he's one of the Mount Rushmore he's a king and you know his take on it was like that got [ __ ] that guy forever and you know what do you what do you do with that guy like there's a lot of us in the beginning we're like [ __ ] that guy [ __ ] you

139:38forever and I'm like no you know now thinking about him like that guy has to be forgiven like he clearly has deep remorse for what he's done and he's also clearly living in a world where he was given nothing but adulation and praise for most of his life and then all sudden he has this one in many people's eyes unforgivable moment where he does something just so [ __ ] stupid but it's not like he doesn't realize it he's a human being you just got to forgive him you know and I think the real person who has to forgive him if he wants to is Chris Rock that's right you know and I don't know if Chris will you know I I haven't even talked to Chris about it you know last time I saw Chris it didn't come up at all we talked about how look Chris is on a Renaissance of his stand-up right now his stand-up has never been better that's what I've heard

140:35everybody that saw him so like dude he's on fire it's like old school bring the pain Chris Rock and I think it's because he got awoken to what he got into this for in the beginning a lot for a lot of comics being able to host the Oscars is like you're not just in you're in with the most important crowd possible you are not just one of the greatest comics of all time but you're also the guy that can host the Oscars and it's just like this unachievable honor that's such a small handful get to get to that spot and he got to that spot and was humiliated and I think it just reignited what made him a comic in the first place he's an outsider for all Outsiders you want to be an Insider the compromises that come with becoming an Insider are not worth it like what what you're trying to do is is you'll be more of an Insider by not doing that it'd be

141:35more of a legend by going back to his roots and that's what he's doing if he wants to forgive Will Smith you know that's totally that's totally his choice I don't know what his relationship with Will Smith is I know he'd been taunting him making jokes about him forever but they're pretty [ __ ] mild jokes you know it wasn't that horrible and my perspective on it is it just Wills just a person that was in an impossible to understand scenario to be a guy who's a child star who goes from that to become one of the most loved beloved actors in the world Blockbuster films everybody loves you to this one thing where everybody [ __ ] hates you everybody thinks you're a piece of [ __ ] he's a human you got to forgive him so what advice would you give will what he's already done I mean I think what he's done has been too coordinated

142:34and produced you know I mean he gave an apology with multiple camera angles that's crazy he just needs to be you and your phone right the setup might be potentially part of the problem in the first place yeah set up your phone say something into your phone and you know I think he has reached out to Chris but I don't think Chris is interested in talking to him you know um he'll be forgiven it'll take some time it's not the worst thing that people have done right it's the embarrassment and shame that he felt from it is the absolute appropriate response he's not doubled down and said [ __ ] that guy if I see him again it's on site there's none of that stupid [ __ ] you know it's can you imagine pretty much we did that got you [ __ ] coming for you next time [ __ ] next time close my left hand you know

143:19what I'm saying I mean you know I I tell you it's it's uh you know I was um the the movie that that you know he got the the Oscar for King Richard I was in that movie and I was I was at every award show you know uh and um you know it was weird I didn't go to the to the I decided not to go uh to that Oscars my son had a double header and his travel baseball team and I was like you know man I'm hanging out with big bill today good for you and I was watching it with my other son Henry who knows will who also was just like you know what why did Mr will do that oh no and uh and what was crazy is um enormous fan of Chris rocks you know and and uh you know but I know will you know and I I know that will would hate the fact that my son had that feeling and you know you know for me you know working for a whole year with him on that movie and then going on the

144:22Press tour and the award circuit like you look man like I've I've never in my life seen someone who's like Kinder or more generous or like it it was so it was such an insane moment that revealed such you know unhealth just like like a lack of Health yeah just like it's just like he is not it he is not in the and so horrible and and you know look just like as a man going and putting your hands on another man whose hands are behind their back just like as a cook like not just that but Chris Rock is this tiny guy 100 so it's not a threat at all 100 and it's like would you yeah exactly right so there's like there's all there's all that but look I you know I think it's like you know it's it's odd because it's like you know for for me with my friends it's like I I you know I try to judge them not not for their worst moments for their best and

145:14and try to get to the bottom of of what's going on you know but yeah it was um you you know I just remember really palpably feeling that like when my son saw it like [ __ ] will would have hated that like the will I know yeah would have hated that I'm sure he did I'm sure he does I'm sure he thinks about it every day I'm sure he's like brushing his teeth going [ __ ] like what did I do and you know I think it also was an accumulative event of the public humiliation that he felt going on his wife's Show and her talking about her relationships with other men including men that were friends with her son the whole thing was just so for him to deal with that publicly I had to be so torturous that I think that he just felt this need to stand up for himself in a very poorly thought out I mean not thought out at all you know just impulsive

146:06impulsive yeah yeah horribly impulsive and just and also just speaks to the ego like where his ego had gotten him to this place where he thought he could do that and he thought he could yell keep my wife's name out of your [ __ ] mouth in front of the academy the world the world all the cameras saying it to Chris Rock who made the most innocuous joke all of it is so crazy but the other part about it is to me like as a human that enjoys a little bit of Chaos I like when things get [ __ ] up because it lets people know that all this [ __ ] about Tuxedos and clapping and horns playing and the curtains drawn and open and closed and it's all [ __ ] we're just human beings and as you said about Chris Chris's Chris Rock's comedy Now there is a potential here for both of these men that that could have been

147:03in a way in a strange way the most important potentially best moment in either their artistic life yeah that where they could go from that I I think like again I go back to me hitting that guy you know a year later July 3rd 2010 I wrote that guy a letter saying that you know the person that I hit that night that wasn't you that was a part of me that I needed to [ __ ] squeeze did you ever meet him again after that I mean I met him in court you know what I mean depositions you know what I mean whatever happened with the court case well you know I I got all I I I I I got off in a way criminally uh you know because it was you know felony assault man and and um you know attempted manslaughter you know it was real but there were so many people there that had seen that there was 10 of them and one of me that it got reduced down to a

147:53misdemeanor battery causing serious bodily harm um and uh and look you know I mean it's one of those cases of the legal system you know really providing you know sort of you know it's all carrots and sticks right and and for me I was just I was placed on this probation for three years that said you know had I be not even arrested but like had I been present at a violent crime anytime in those three years mandatory year in Twin in L.A County Jail had I get charged for a crime it was 10 years for a violent crime 10 years so for a guy on four times like and I'm disgusted to say this about myself but that was not like that crazy of an event for me at that point in my life which is so [ __ ] disgusting but you know it meant like change everything yeah like you know and I think change for people is really tough I think you

148:48got it you got it yeah man you gotta rip you gotta rip out this like whole part of your identity man you gotta just like get rid of it but then you're walking around with this [ __ ] hole and everything that made people laugh everything that you you know made people that you think like you and then that want to be around you and that made you attractive or that made you you it's gone so then you got to start filling it with other [ __ ] you know you gotta start filling it with good [ __ ] you know yeah and and um did he respond to your letter no probably has a headache [ __ ] man well what ended up happening man it was crazy she ended up suing you know I I had just done probably gonna get in so much trouble for this but I I had just done uh Night at the Museum too I played like Al Capone and Night at the Museum too

149:35like you know and and the posters were like everywhere around La and it had I was I was one of the bat so I was on the poster so my face was everywhere so he saw that and he was like oh he sued me for two million dollars and I I had like no money back then and uh so you know when I was starting a family you know with my wife you know I I had to figure out you know these legal fees and these deficits it was all about the the Civil the civil case um he had this big lawyer who's just like you know coming to the boxing gym that I train in like you know you know following me around you know putting me on camera in these depositions you you know saying he's gonna come into my house and and grab my my pregnant wife and and and and depose her you know serve her you know trying to get a rise out of me it was the biggest acting performance of my life I've you

150:22know I wanted to you know reach across the table and you know choke this guy and I was like well why would you do that sir like my wife's done nothing to you know but uh yeah you know I don't know but even even that man like you know there was so much shame and and so much disgust for the way that I was living my life like I you know man I gotta I got away scot-free and and you know ended up having to you know spend a ton of money and uh that that I didn't have and really set us back as we were trying to start a family but again I I really that that moment um we're leaving it was as low as I I kind of felt like I had ever been I think in a lot of ways really saved my life those moments are critical and there's ways you can respond to those moments and you responded in the best possible way I think and you know life is chaos there's a lot going on

151:18you know and if you're if you encounter something as bad as what you encountered you know all the things that you described and the way you described it I probably would have done the exact same thing today unfortunately you know like what do you do like when you're confronted by saying that part of you is triggered and you realize that this piece of [ __ ] is pushing you from the back and you can just Flatline them it's very difficult to not do that yeah I think it takes I mean I think then you know for me it was like really doing a lot of work man like really doing you know I like court-ordered anger management I think you know other times where I had court ordered stuff in my life I was like I was like you know court ordered you know drug rehab like it just get high as [ __ ] and go in there you know what I mean you're like I'm

152:02gonna trip acid and go to you know what I mean go see if I can like you know pick up a girl in here you know like just like a total total [ __ ] but but you know you know for me you know I mean it sounds crazy but I mean just for people out there that might be dealing with that kind of stuff like you know keeping an anger Journal like figuring out what what pisses you off like figuring out like how long it pisses you off figuring out what triggers you figuring out what it makes you think you really want to do to be like really working on that [ __ ] ah you know I don't know man and and look I mean don't get me wrong like I'm I'm I'm still me and and I know I know exactly you know it's like it's my kids are my wife man just as long as you you know but besides that I'm not going to get into any you know you can't you know

152:49nothing's gonna make me mad and I'm I'm filled with I'm I'm filled with gratitude you're on the right Journey you know you uh you had a pivotal moment in your life and you self-corrected it's huge it's huge for anyone to hear that too because that's possible and you don't think it's possible when you're in the depths of it when you're in the depths of something that's awful you just feel like this is my new reality but oftentimes through that new reality that's where the growth comes and that's where the change comes and that's where you know you are an accumulation of your life experiences and how you respond to those experiences and sometimes profound things can cause profound change and in your case for the better that's right that's right and and and and there's there's there's nothing more powerful than than changing and and uh

153:40you know I'd like completely support I I completely support and believe in any anyone's ability to do that and I think the more we write people off and we use these unbelievably insignificant you know sort of means to to to to to to to to to not be forgiving or to put people in these boxes it's a huge mistake man it's a huge mistake for the person that's doing that too for sure because they have this in unflexible uncharitable view of people forever like what if that comes around on you man and it's that you don't want that you don't want that for you and you don't want that for other people that's right again we're all just human beings but we lose sight of that because these kind of conversations where people get to fully Express all the emotions and thoughts behind that they're not that common they're they're very recent in

154:30fact in in humanity we really haven't had like enormous platforms where people can express themselves the way you just did um it and it can affect so many people in a positive way it's uh that's one of the beautiful things about what you're doing what you're doing with your show is that you you're giving a voice to these thoughts and circumstances and situations and people that it's not easy to hear that voice that voice is not Amplified it's not on mainstream media it's not in newspapers and even if it is you're not going to read it it's just you put it in a very digestible way that is impactful to many many people and there's people out there that I'm sure are listening to this right now and listening to your story and realizing that they have an opportunity in their life to enact the same kind of change and the same kind of positive change of

155:31direction that you did for yourself that they can do it for themselves too and they can realize that it's you know you look at a person and we always like to put look at a person as a this static thing and it's one thing that I really came to grips with being becoming a father is that I used to think of people as like oh this is Bob he's 40 he's a piece of [ __ ] now I think oh that was a baby that was a baby and he either wasn't loved or was abused or was in this terrible situation and through bad life choices and bad circumstances surrounded by the worst people one event leads into the other the momentum carries him into a terrible place and now here Bob finds himself at 40 where people think he's a piece of [ __ ] and I'm sure he self-defines by that too because of other people's opinions so true and I mean that that perspective

156:23that you know the the fatherhood thing that just that just changes every change is everything it's there's a Monumental shift first of all seeing life that didn't exist before and realizing that it came about through you and your wife is so strange it's so psychedelic because it's like it there you know people oh parenting changes you you say that to someone who doesn't have kids they really have no [ __ ] idea what you're talking about but I've seen it in so many of my friends that they have children and also there's this softening of who they are in this uh understanding of what's really important you know and that what's really it's so cliche but love love is what's really important friendship love and trying to get over your own [ __ ] and figure out life for you what what is the best path for you and what are the steps that you have

157:18to do every [ __ ] day to stay on that good path path because it's so easy to make change for a little while and then slide right back into your old [ __ ] that's right that's right it's got to be but and nothing will nothing will provide that Vitality for you and how how utterly and absolutely essential it is in having kids yeah and I I think for me I mean I even look you know I have to spend so much time on the road and it's it's a you know it's a I hate that I hate that but you know while I'm gone you know the reason why you know I'm not like [ __ ] eating Chinese food and like at the bar is because you know I'm away from my kids and I'm putting my kids name on my work so it's like I'm gonna be committed to whatever I have to do for that like that that really [ __ ] matters to me like I

158:02really want them to look back and and say you know Dad dad put it all in there you know I mean like that's that's funny you know one of those guys from Shreveport Rich Wilson you know he he he told me like right when I was having my second kid you know he I grew up on the streets you know and and uh you know really seen an unbelievable amount you know I asked him you know what's the you know what advice would you give me you know being a father he's just like all that [ __ ] that you're doing that you know you shouldn't be doing just stop doing that [Laughter] but you know what I mean you know the exaggerating the the the the whatever it is the the the the the the flimsiness the yeah you know just you know you really want these qualities you really want to nurture these qualities in your children just cut them the [ __ ] out yeah

158:50with you you know and and uh yeah you know I I think there's really something to that I think so too I think this is a good way to end this right on brother thank you John really appreciate it this is everything I thought it was going to be I appreciate you having me tell everybody how they can watch your show how they can consume it oh uh the podcast yeah uh it's uh real ones which on Bernthal uh Spotify yeah thanks man putting it up there because I don't look at the picture it's so bad look at that mustache my kids used to come over when I had that mustache I had that for all the cover they would just rip the [ __ ] out of that mustache uh so yeah on Spotify Apple podcast on YouTube and stuff like beautiful thanks man thank you brother I appreciate it bye [Music] foreign