Wretch 32: How To Build Unstoppable Self-Belief
嘉宾：Wretch
全文文稿 · 按对话顺序保留完整内容，深入理解上下文。
§01Transcript — part 1
The thing I think about most, especially when I’m on the go but also when I’m sat here in the Diary of a CEO studio, is the Wi-Fi and internet that we have to work with. In fact, any time I’m filming away from the studio, one of the first things I do when I arrive is open up an app and do a speed test to see how strong the signal is.
The number of screenshots I’ve sent to my team about Wi-Fi signals at different locations is actually pretty crazy. It matters that much to me because it’s such a competitive advantage to have fast Wi-Fi. Because on any given day, if I’m recording, let's say, hours and hours of footage with a podcast guest, I then often have to have my team send that across to our London team who then do the edit.
So fast Wi-Fi and internet is not a nice-to-have; it is absolutely business mission-critical. So, when it came to finding the best provider who could supply internet and Wi-Fi to our new LA studio, which I’m sat in right now, we looked at every single option.
And of all the providers, the one that came back with the steadiest connection, as well as being the cheapest, was today’s sponsor, Spectrum Business. Spectrum Business keeps businesses of all sizes connected with fast, reliable internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, and mobile services. Millions of business owners already rely on Spectrum to keep their operations connected. So if you want to join them, head to spectrum.com/business to learn more. That’s spectrum.com/business. Restrictions apply; service not available in all areas.
Music is Game of Thrones, bro. You see Game of Thrones? They kill the main character. Do you get what I'm saying? They don't mind doing that.
I think the best turning point for me was when I was 16 and my mom threw me out. She feels like it was a harsh thing to do, but I’m like, at the end of the day, if you don’t do that, for me at 16, I don’t become Wretch.
We signed for a single, which was "Tractor." Twin said to me, he was like, "This song is going to change your life." And then, yeah, bam, it goes in the charts and everything changed after that.
The obsession made me better, made me more hungry. When you find your passion, you find your calling, bro. You’re not fair to no one. Everyone comes second, bro. My daughter, she has no recognition of living with me. I just became a monster, man. You can’t skip what’s important, man. Your legacy can triple that, bro. Have the right one.
So without further ado, I’m Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody is listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.
Wretch, take me back to Tottenham when you were growing up. I'm a big believer, and to be honest, I always start these podcasts in the same way because I came to learn when I was younger the importance of those early years on shaping who we become as adults. Someone said this wonderful quote to me: that we’re actually just children living out the stories we told ourselves about ourselves long ago. So, take me back to Tottenham where you grew up and the context in which made you the man you are today.
Grew up in Seven Sisters in an estate called Tiverton. Tottenham was just notorious, isn't it, for a lot of madness, a lot of crime, a lot of this, a lot of that. And I think for me, just growing up and learning how to navigate through that—how to understand who you are, what you’re here for.
Also, my parents and grandparents and all that, they were proper embedded in, you know, fighting against police brutality. So I always had a lot of understanding about certain things that were probably above my age. I feel like I was always someone that could get along with everyone. Like, whether cool kid, uncool kid, whatever, I could always have something to speak about with anyone.
In the estate, just like the regular stuff, man, that was happening. Do you get what I’m saying? Like a lot of badness, stabbings, a lot of this, a lot of that. But we just, when we were very young, we just wanted to play football. We wanted to play out, play football, play games. But as you get older, you know, you start seeing other things, hearing other things.
Sometimes even unwillingly, sometimes you’re just—you become a part of things because you’re there on the day or you’re there at that time. And I think a lot of those early scenarios kind into shaped who I thought I was going to become at that time.
The best turning point for me was when I was 16 and my mom threw me out. Because I now had to be the adult that I thought I was.
So before that, I was walking around the house, had a bravado, had attitude, thought I was a big man, thought I was a bad boy, thought I was whatever. And all the time, my mom’s kind of like a single mom. At that time, there are two older sisters and two younger sisters and myself in the house. Just at that time, feeling like I’m feeling myself a bit too much.
My mom was always like, "Look, I know you feel you’re beyond your years, but you’re not. You’re actually 15 or you’re actually 14. And if you continue moving like this, you’re going to be forced to be 21 at 16." Obviously, as a youth, you’re not really taking that in, taking it seriously. One day I come home and my bags are on the door.
So I’m kind of like, all right, cool. And I’m mad prideful as well. So at the time, my sisters were like, "Look, just have a conversation with her. She’s going to sort it out. Just calm down a bit, whatever, whatever." But I’m just feeling myself still too much. So I’m kind of just like, whatever. Took my bags, went to my cousin’s house for a little while.
Then I just felt like I was just in other people’s space. Obviously, they're family, but I just felt like I’m in the way. I don't like feeling like that. Went to my sister's. Still did feel like I was in the way. Even though to her she’ll say I wasn’t, but I just don’t want to be a burden to anyone. So then, yeah, just went to the housing and then, yeah, 16 years old, I was in my place. And I learned so much, man. And I think that’s the best, the best thing anyone’s ever done for me in my life.
Why did she throw you out?
I was too vibe-y, man. I just thought I was too—I thought I was it. Do you get what I’m saying? And I think as well, it’s like when you think you’re it and you’re making a little money on the roads and whatever, and you’re giving someone money here and there, you’re thinking you’re doing your part.
So maybe I give you 200 quid this month, maybe next month I don't give you anything. Maybe the next month I give you a grand, maybe the next two months I don't give you anything. But I’m always reverting back to the fact that, "Yeah, but I gave you, yeah but I done this, or yeah but I done that."
But what you don't realize until you're an adult is every month the bills are coming. They don’t come staggered like you’re giving the money. So it's not like she can just pay 600 pound rent in January and nothing in February. Do you get what I’m saying? So it’s like, but you don't have that understanding as a child. You need to be an adult to have that understanding. Like, these bills are coming regardless.
And I think even though she was saying it to me, I was still, you know like you’re still calculating what you're giving, like, "No, but I gave, or but I done this, or I done that." It’s not enough. The bills don’t work like that. Being 16 and learning those harsh lessons, it’s just harsh reality and I was just like, "Rah, I actually thought I was a big man."
And it’s like, years after, like I was angry with my mom for a bit at the time, as you would be.
Not speaking to her?
Kind of. Like, kind of trying to be like that. But you know like letters are still going there, so you’re still going there, "Ask my sister, yo, give me the letters, bring out the letters," don’t really want to go in, whatever. Still being attached to pride and being attached to too much attitude.
And I just had to humble myself one day and I just be like, "You know what, Mom? That was the best thing anyone’s ever done for me." And she was like, to this day, like when she hears me say it, she still—it still upsets her because she feels like it was, you know, a very harsh thing to do. But I’m like, at the end of the day, if you don’t do that for me at 16, I don’t become Wretch at 20-odd, because he’s too comfortable. Wretch comes out of being uncomfortable, being backed in a corner, being forced to be a provider, being forced to be the man of his house rather than thinking he’s the man of his mom’s house.
The man of your house. Did you know your father?
Yeah, yeah.
Did you have a relationship with him?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. My dad’s a very—was very, very serious, man. Very serious, very serious, very strict. Very well-respected because of, you know, in the area with all the police brutality and all of that, all the things that they fought for and still fight for. Him, my uncle and my nan. But just very, very, very harsh. Very harsh.
And a DJ as well. So old school, you remember they used to string up sound systems. Like my mom’s house, all the speakers throughout the passage. One of the rooms, all the speakers. Like all of us had to share because the speakers had their own room. Do you get what I’m saying? I’m like, Mom, can I at least sleep in the speaker? Like, I’m sharing with my sisters, I need a little space or whatever.
But, yeah, so yeah, yeah, yeah, good relationship. Obviously him and my mom parted ways and, yeah, still kept a relationship. Like, I don’t have that "I don’t know my dad" thing. Like, I know my dad, yeah.
And your grandmother. One of the things you said about her was that watching her take care of your grandfather who had cancer was a really pivotal moment. Watching how caring she was with him right up until the point that he passed away.
You know like when you’re young, your first experiences of death are like so severe, man. Like so impactful. Not that it gets any easier, but you understand it more, I think, when you get older. And I just think at the time, I don’t think I’ve ever understood strength until I met that situation with my gran, man.
It was just how she was. You know like Caribbean, so when I’d come around she’s like, "Make sure you come back again, you know, cause him soon dead." And I’m saying, "You’re saying to me he’s soon dead, like he’s not going to die." I don’t even understand the severity of cancer as young as I was at that time. She’s like, "Yeah man, him soon dead, man."
And all my friends that he liked, she’s like, "Make sure you bring them to say goodbye." And I’m like, "Say goodbye? Like, what the hell is this? Everything’s cool." But it’s like she’s saying it to me like that. But my mom and my dad, they’re not like explaining the severity of the situation to me. They’re not saying like there’s a countdown.
So I’ve got my aunt saying like, "Yo, we’re giving him organic food, we’re doing this." So I’m thinking, "Yo, we’re fighting it." But every time I’m going back, it’s like he’s becoming like, I don't know, less and less and smaller and smaller. And now I can see it, but I’m still—I don't know, I guess the word’s naive, isn’t it? Like you’re very hopeful and you’re naive thinking, "No, no, no, it’s going to be cool."
Because he’d been, to be fair, he’d been saying he was sick for years, but he was undiagnosed. He was ill, but we didn’t know. When he went to the doctor, once he got diagnosed, it’s a countdown now. So I don’t know if mentally something happens there, I don’t know how that works.
But just watching her through when he became incontinent—like washing him, bathing him, feeding him, just being there the whole way through. I was just like, that to me was the real definition of a marriage. That is, you know, sickness and health. Do you get what I’m saying? That is death do us part. That was literally till death do us part. And I’m like, I don’t know if I’d ever see that level of strength again.
The other thing that really stuck out to me about your childhood as I was reading through your backstory was that moment when you’re nine and a car comes up next to you. Tell me about that. What happened and what did that teach you?
At that point, Tottenham was warring with a lot of surrounding areas, isn’t it? So it was like Ford Fiestas back then, tinted cars rolling through the estate just looking for whoever they’re looking for. But I live in the middle of it. And being young but being tall—and remember back then, when everyone’s warring with each other, like now we have the internet so everyone knows who everyone is, what everyone looks like, whatever. Back then, nobody did.
It was just a description like, "He’s dark-skinned and skinny." Do you get what I’m saying? So they come looking for a dark-skinned and skinny guy. But I’m nine. And I’m going shop. And then I remember the car was breezing up to me—*vroom!* And I’m thinking, "Rah, why are they driving like that?" Skids—*skrrrt!* Wind down the window and then I look in the car, I’m like, "Rah." But it's like, "Nah, nah, nah." And then drive off.
And I just thought, "Rah, like what the hell? Imagine if I ran." Because you know like for a second I was going to run. I was thinking, rah, the car’s—cause he’s driving towards me, I can run that way, he ain't going to be able to just spin around. But I just remember thinking like, I haven't even done anything. Do you get what I’m saying first of all?
But then when it stopped and they done that, I was just like—and then just drove off. And I think that thing there made me feel like it's probably better to be involved than to not at the time. Do you get what I’m saying? Because at the time I'm not involved. I'm actually just a clean-hearted good youth. I just play football and computer, that's it.
Do you get what I’m saying? So when that happened, it made me feel like, "Rah, that could have happened to me for no reason. Like, I might as well give you a reason." Do you get what I’m saying? Like something could have—I could have been shot, whatever they were going to do. And I think that kind of put a chip on my shoulder for the next couple years, which obviously is what led to my mom feeling like, "Nah, you’re feeling yourself a bit too much. Go on and fly the nest." Like if you don’t push the bird out the nest, it won’t fly. If you’re not thrown in the water, you don’t have to swim, kind of thing.
And a lot of men—I mean, this happens not just on the estate, but men that don’t grow up in such circumstances—they start using that like bravado as a form of self-defense, but it ends up inflicting self-harm in some way. I mean, that’s what you tend to see with a lot of gangs, right? You join to defend yourself or to try and fit in, but it leads you down a path of self-harm.
Yeah, because you go from "I’m doing this to fight back" in the form of defense to offense now. Because it’s gone from "I’m just defending myself" to now I’m out in a club or I’m out somewhere and now you’re getting into situations with people that you feel look like you might end up in a situation with. So now it’s just happening now. It’s proactive.
Do you get what I’m saying? Whereas really, if you both were just defending yourselves, then you can be cool to walk past each other or be in the same club at the same time or whatever. I think a lot of like things being unsaid, like when things ain't clear. Like you’re in—just because you’re in an environment and you feel—I don’t know, you might not have a issue with anyone in the environment, but because there's no clarity.
Because they haven't said, "We don't have nothing with you," and you haven't said, "We don't have nothing with you," it's just tense.
Yeah, I mean that’s life, right? Relationships, business, communication is key.
Yeah, and there’s just a little tenseness and it’s like, "Why is it tense?" And then depending on how the ice breaks—do you get what I’m saying? If it breaks the right way, it’s cool. If it breaks the wrong way, then it’s just erupting into something that didn’t even exist, to be fair, in the first place.
And at that age, what did you want to be when you grew up? What was the aspiration?
Probably wanted to be Ian Wright. Realized early on that ain't going to happen. I liked music; I didn't want to be a musician, though.
Why?
It didn’t seem realistic. You didn’t know anyone in your tribe or circle that had gotten there. Yeah, it was like the musicians were like other people—Jay-Z, do you know what I’m saying? Tupac or Nas. Like, that was somewhere else. So it’s like, yeah, you can do it for fun. So we did it for fun, we’d write whatever and record on tapes, blah blah blah, but I never thought like this could be a career, I could make money from this, I could live in this space.
So I guess like I was into trying to understand what else happens outside my estate. Because also what happens, you feel like your family—your friends become your family in the estate. The sweet shop is basically a supermarket. So you don't need to leave. You just move from house to house, then we're all outside, we play football, then it’s 9:00 PM, we buy ice poles, then everyone goes home, we do it again tomorrow.
And you just end up in a cycle of that. But then someone told me actually, I saw one of my friends in an advert—a guy from my estate called Frank, yeah, he was in a Lexus advert as a kid. And I was like, when he come on the telly, I was like, "Mom, that’s Francis! He lives over there." I said, "Frank, how did you get in the advert?" He was like, "I've got a agent." I was like, "Is it? How did you get agent?"
He was like, "There's a newspaper that comes out every Thursday called The Stage." So he’s like, "Buy The Stage, it costs a pound, but it just shows you so many different things." So I used to buy that newspaper just to see what else can happen, what else is there. And it used to be like auditions or whatever.
To be fair, I’d never really go to any, but I think like I was intrigued about what else exists, what other people are doing. Then I’d see something about the Brit School, I’m like, "Rah, I wonder what that is." Like all these things that we don’t know nothing about—Anna Scher’s, I used to see Sylvia Young. All these things in the paper.
But there was always a price, a cost, like "Sign up for this" or "Pay for the portfolio" or whatever. And obviously at like 11, 12, 13, you can’t—my mom, she’s not going to—there's too many of us to ask for that. We need school uniform first and foremost, everything else is secondary. So, yeah.
How old were you when you decided that you were going to like record a mixtape and like publish it and try and sell it? 2006 when it came out, wasn't it?
Yeah, 2006, "Learn From My Mixtape" came out. That’s my first CD. 24 songs on there.
I tried getting it on Spotify, I couldn't.
No, it’s not—I need to, you know, I need to get it up on there. People ask, but I think there might be one or two American beats. Right, right. So that’s why we’re struggling with that. But, yeah, man, I think at that point, I’d been on pirate radio, been on Heat FM. And I was just like—then I became obsessed.
I was obsessed. I was just like, "I need to go studio as much as I can." Everything I was doing was to put into being able to record. And then once I had seven or eight CDs with about nine songs on each, I was like, "Rah, I've got like 50, 60 something songs. This is mad. Maybe I should just do a project."
So then I came up with the idea "Learn From My Mixtape" because I wanted it to be like quite educational—not in a school way, but in a streets way. Like I always wanted to educate the youth and let them know there was other ways of doing things. That's always been my thing. So yeah, came up with that, made that project.
The funny thing about that CD is that you give it to the guy to press up, you pay your 600 or 700 pound, and then he—he presses it up. But back then, they were so long. You’re ringing him every Friday, "Has it arrived?" "No, it’s not arrived yet." Ringing, ringing, ringing, ringing.
So the day my son’s born, I’m in the hospital, I get a phone call and it’s the guy. And I’m like—so the baby’s born, healthy, everything’s cool. Answer the phone, he’s like, "Your CDs are here. Come now." Because he’s not—I don't remember if it was a Friday, but he wasn’t in tomorrow, he wasn't in for the next two days. So it was like, "Come now."
So obviously I come off the phone, I’m in the hospital holding my son. So like, his mom’s looked at me and she’s like, "Who was that?" I was like, "Yeah man, the CDs are here." But she knows that this is my thing. So this is like—but this is the thing when you make music. You’re obsessed, bro. You’re obsessed.
So I’m like, looking at my watch, like—do you get what I’m saying? And she’s like—then she just looks at me and she goes, "Go and get the CDs, man. Just go and get the CDs." I’m like, "Thank you, man." Like kissed my son, jumped in the car, ripped to Croydon, picked up a thousand CDs.
A thousand?
A thousand.
You got them all in the car?
Thousand, all in the car, bro. A thousand. Like seats—two of us in the car, seats down, like a thousand. It takes up bare space as well. Got them back. So then like just put them in the hallway, went and picked them up, brought her home and she was just like, "You need to get these out this house. Cause now there’s a buggy, there’s Moses basket, there’s all of this stuff." I’m just like, I’m just feeling mad pressure. I was just like, rah.
That was just—it was just fun and exciting, man. It was like—it was like my life was born, was reborn, my son was born. I just felt like a new energy. I was re-energized and I just—I just wanted to go, man. So it was like, spent the next couple weeks doing the sale and return.
Oh, so you take them to a shop, if they don't sell them, they go back?
Bro, and at that point, I don't care about the money, bro. I just want to be heard. Like I want someone drove past me and they were playing my CD, bro, and you can’t tell me I’m not Jay-Z back then. When I heard that and I don’t know the person—normally you know them—I’m looking, I’m like, "Rah, he doesn’t even know it’s me." He’s driven past me, I’m like, "Yeah, this is—this is happening. We’re growing, we’re growing."
So, yeah, just re-energize, man. And sale and return is long because you're no one. The shop guy, his shelves are full. So he’s like, "Yeah, we’ll take five." I’m like, "My guy, I have a thousand of these. Take 50, bro. I won’t even come back for the money, I swear to you, bro. Like, I’m cool, bro." He was like, "Nah, nah, give me ten." Bro, you know what I’m doing? Just to get rid of them, I’ll buy the ten back, yeah? And then he’ll call me and he’ll be like, "Yeah, the ten went fast, you know!" Like I’ll make someone else do it. "The ten went fast, don’t lie, what do you want? Do you want the 50 now?" "Yeah, yeah, bring the 50, yeah we got 50 for you coming."
So you'd get friends to go in and buy the CDs?
Do you get what I’m saying? So now I can go and give him 50. That’s half a box out, bro. These were taking up so much space. So, yeah, doing that—Oxford Circus, Birmingham, Croydon, like all the music shops. And yeah, it was different time, isn’t it?
When you were running around shouting those CDs, what were you doing for money? Because I’m sure that wasn’t—that wasn’t covering the bills, right?
Nah. Me and my manager, he’s my manager now, he was just my—he’s always been my breadrin, like my right hand. We just, every—every penny we made from anything, we just put it together and put it in this and put it in this. So it was like sometimes we’d go back for the sale and return as well so we’d get a little drips and drabs there, this and that. And just literally just sharing money.
It’s like we had one bank account, if I’m honest. Like we were just sharing, like everything. "What do we need?" "Then we needed to do a video." "How much does a video cost?" "2,500." "Whoa. All right, cool." But now my—at the time, like my son’s mom’s like, "Yo, we need buggy." Let’s say we need a buggy, but it's like "I need to do a video."
It was like I felt like I was always trying to decide between a buggy or a video. Yeah, bro. Like you feel so guilty. But you—but you know it made me understand—it made me understand like the—the need and the obsession and the love I have for this thing because I’m actually always comparing it. Like it sounds mad to hear me say, but it’s just—when it’s your purpose, it’s your purpose, bro.
Every single month we’re growing, we’re growing, we’re growing. It’s getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And when it gets to that point, we’ll have how many buggies? Do you get what I’m saying? We have the best cot, everything. It’ll be able to spin. Do you get what I’m saying? It'll put the—it'll put the baby to sleep, whatever. You know what I mean? S&A champagne.
So yeah, but I that was like—that was when I was understanding that you’ve—like you’ve actually got some kind of obsession or some deep-rooted love for this thing that should probably not be like that. You know what I’m saying? Like what you’re weighing up against the other thing. It just—but it just was, man.
How long were you in that phase of like trying—like trying to give people your CDs and like how—how in years or months, how long was that phase? Because I was watching the Kanye Netflix documentary recently. Cold, cold, yeah. It reminded me of that, like you got that young man who believed in himself more than anyone else did. You see that scene where he plays like—he plays "All Falls Down" and she’s not paying attention to him? She goes on the phone. Yeah, yeah, she goes on the phone. He’s intentionally trying to tell him to piss off by like ignoring him. It reminds me of that. So how long were you in that phase of your journey just like selling them CDs?
I think so if this first CD came out 2006, I reckon since like 2003 I'd been giving out music. But what I—what I was always very clever at, like I always wanted everyone to like my music. So I had different CDs with different songs on, so I’d have like a CD with ten grime songs, a CD with ten love songs, a CD with five songs about trying to turn your life around.
I just had different CDs. And what I'd do, I’d give the CD to each person as to what I think they would like. So I give the mandem that one. But what was happening is like I gave a man that one and then I give his sister a different one, but his sister was like, "Yeah, but my brother’s got one that’s got different songs on." But I’m like, "I don't think you would like that." So it was like I was always just had music—enough music to please everyone.
But then everyone wanted the other songs as well. So that kind of made me decide that, "You know what? If you put everything on 24 songs, then maybe they can all be centered to this—this disc and it can start there." And it—it worked, yeah.
2003 to 2006 you were trying to move them CDs. Mixtape comes out 2006. But what—what were you using as metrics to figure out if it was actually working?
Bro, if—if I heard my song on the radio, we was winning. Every time I heard it I was like, "Cool." And my manager, we are Yin and Yang. Like I’m all creative and this guy is all genius in another way. So he would be like, I’d go to his house and he’d be like, "All right, cool. We’re going to this show in Nottingham. These people are performing. When you see this guy, he thinks he knows you, yeah? Because I’ve messaged him off your account and you lot have had a conversation. So just make sure you say hello to him, blah blah blah."
I’m just like, "How have you even—how do you even know who’s who?" But he’d already engineered some idea. And so then we—we were at like proper—the first station to proper like really show us mad love was like 1Xtra. So it's like DJ Cameo, Ace and Vis, like all these—Ras Kwame, all these people, Twin B, like all these people were showing mad love. Like, "Come in, man, do a interview."
And like I like to think I’m likeable. People like to converse. So we’re talking and then this guy will introduce me to a producer, then the producer will introduce me to a next person. Then we found out about press and PR. Started working with a guy called Charlie at Visions and he was like, "Yeah, you pay us 500 pound a month and we can get you in magazines." Like, "Rah, magazines! Crazy."
Like it was just like everything was just one person away. So each person introduced us to a different person. And that’s how I’m—how I was measuring the growth. So I’m like, I can come back and I’m like, "Yo man, I just met this guy man, he—he shoots videos," or "I met this guy, he does PR," "I met this guy, he’s a photographer."
And like in her head, she’s probably thinking, "Oh, shut up. Like, what’s a photographer going to do?" But I’m like, "It’s another step." Each step, each step, each step. One hand is washing the other and we will wash the whole body, I promise. You know what I mean? Like.
In that—in that phase you’re starting to get these radio plays and stuff, which is kind of like a sign for you, it’s that reinforcement that things are moving in the right direction. Was there, and I’m sure you get asked this a lot, but was there a moment where even your partner at the time said to you, "You know what, I think—" Or you could see it in—because sometimes they don’t say it, you can see it in their face. When they hear it on the radio or they see, you know.
I always knew that I was ticking her off, man. Like in that—in just in that—not in everyone—in that—in that aspect. Because even like at them times I used to write at home. Bro, I don’t know if you’ve lived with a musician or been around a musician—bro, that beat is on loop for hours. Do you get what I’m saying? And all I would hear like when I pull it back is just *tssh, tssh* like as if to do it again.
Like and I just was like, "You know what? I need to just start working in the studio." Like because this—like it’s not fair. Like it’s when you find your passion, yeah, you find your calling, bro. You’re not fair to no one. You’re only fair to yourself. Do you get what I’m saying? You’re not fair to anyone. Everyone—everyone comes second, bro. Everyone.
And it’s not intentional, it just—it just is what it is. So me thinking that I’m spending time with her because I’m writing in the house, even though I’m not talking to her, the song's just on loop and I’m writing, I’m thinking I’m spending time. I ain't spending time. Do you get what I’m saying? That’s just being present.
So it’s like—but then in my head I’m thinking, "Yeah, but if I’m in the studio for eight hours, it’s better that I’m at home." Yeah, that I’m at home. But it’s—it’s actually all about me, bro. It was only all about me, my calling and making this—making this music. This is my pa—like I wake up every day, I think music. Before I go to sleep, I think music. I used to have a—a dream that happened every time and in the dream, I’m in the studio and I’m writing a verse.
And I’d wake up and I’m like, "Rah, I can never remember the verse." And I’m trying to remember, trying to remember. One day I woke up, I’m like, "Rah, I need a—a pen and paper by my bed." I left it there. I wrote out the verse that I wrote in my dream. I was like, "Bro, this is—like to me, yeah, I’m like, I’m believing in this now. I’m like this is—it has to be fate or something. Like this has to be engineered by someone higher than you, man. Like from your writing in your sleep." Literally. So just—and just going and going and going.
I want to get up to the point when you release "Black and White" in 2011. What happens between that mixtape coming out in 2006 to 2011? Is there—what are the most significant moments or pivotal moments where—where things took a—a turn in a good direction?
Okay, like more—more exposure and little things happening here and there. Like MTV asked us to do something for Black History Month. It was like a freestyle. That was strong because it showed people I could write, perform, stick to topic. Then 1Xtra gave us an award for getting I think one of our records was the most played.
Was it "Punctuation"?
I think it was "Punctuation," yeah. "Punctuation," yeah. Getting a lot more bookings and Twin B—Twin B from 1Xtra, always having conversations with him. Like he just gave me a understanding of the game on the other side. Because at the time he was working with—at Ministry. And he just had so many gems and he made me understand—because I used to think like, "Why am I not signed? Like, why was I not signed? Am I not good or—"
Like it’s not about good or great, it’s about timing and it’s about what can a label help you do. How can a label help you be bigger? What do you need to achieve before you step into a label? So we had all these conversations, you know, doing loads of collaborations as well. And then Richard Antwi and Twin B, they form a record label called Levels and they’re like, "We want to sign you, man."
And I’m like, "Rah. Okay. Like, what happens now?" kind of thing. It’s like, now you need a lawyer, now you need, you know, all these other things. And it was just—once it got to that point, I knew that it was serious. Because Richard Antwi had worked with Adele, so many different people. Do you get what I’m saying? And I knew that this guy was serious. Twin—music lover. We’d had endless conversations on the phone about music. And they had their situation with Ministry of Sound. So they were like a subsidiary of Ministry of Sound. So it was like, signed to Levels like, you know, and Ministry as well. And I just—I just knew that that was the right thing to do at the time.
When you get that news that they want to sign you, what's Ashley saying? Do you come home and you're like, "Ha! Yeah, innit. We done it!"
I don't think I do, you know? I think I guess by that point, just me being about me, the relationship's not where it—it could have been or where it should have been. Do you get what I mean? So I think by that time we were already going our separate ways. Yeah, kind of drifting apart.
But, yeah, so I didn't get to—to kind of have that—that thing. But I think—I think she’s, you know, she’s happy for me. Always been happy for me. Always wanted—always knew that this was what I needed to do. She knew that it was a need and not a want. Because of the things—what everything I was weighing it up against. She knew that this is a need, like "This guy needs to do this. Like he needs it." So, yeah.
And then "Black and White."
And then "Black and White," yeah. So initially, we signed for a single, which was "Tractor." That was my ringtone in 2012, yeah. That was my—I don’t even know what phone it was, but that was my ringtone when I first—I did one day at university before I dropped out and that was my ringtone from day—day one.
My guy. Yeah. We—we had that record and Twin said to me, when I put the verses down, he was like, "This song is going to change your life." Really? He said that. Yeah. And I was like, "I don't know how you know that, but you're my guy. So I'm believing in you." And I’m—I just didn’t know what would happen next.
So I’m still going back to them times when I’d go to the—the record shop, yeah, and kind of buy back the CDs to give more. So when I’m out in the club, if they’re playing the tune or they’re not playing the tune, I’m making sure they play the song. Do you get what I’m saying? I’m saying, "Yeah, what—what does it take? What? All the drinks? Cool. I’ll order drinks, play that song when the drinks come."
Like I’m making sure that this song is being heard. We’re trying—everything. We’re not trying—we’re—our thing was always floor-to-ceiling. We’d say we’d make sure we’d covered everything floor-to-ceiling. And then, yeah, bam! It goes in the charts and literally everything changed. Everything changed after that.
Take me through that process. So it goes in the charts and then you start—just—what's it like at the—because I've, you know, never had a—I never had a hit.
Bro, it’s like you throughout that week—so the song—say like the song's available to buy on Sunday, was back then. So Monday morning, like the label kind of knows the numbers, innit? So they're kind of like, "You're number eight." I’m like, "Rah, number eight?" They're like, "Yeah, but we’ll catch—we’ll catch seven and six. Maybe five."
Then the next day it's like, "Yeah, you're number six." I'm like, "What the hell? Like—" and it’s just going higher. Then it gets to four, I think. Then it goes back to five. And it's like, it's five and it’s like, "Rah, we gotta—we want to hold in—in the top five." And it’s just—I don’t know, I just think at that time, yeah, you—you almost step into a vehicle and then it just starts moving.
And it’s like, you know like when you’re driving through a area and you’re looking out the window, you’re just seeing things and you’re just seeing people and—but you’re just moving. It just—it was just moving, bro. Like it was just moving. It was moving. And then you’re doing Glastonbury and then you’re doing Wireless and you’re doing V Festival and you’re doing everything was just moving. Everything was—everything happened so fast that I don't think—I don't think I even stopped to take it in at that time.
And then it was and then it was, "Cool, you done it once. That was one single. Now we want to do an album. What’s the next single?" And it's like, now you’ve got to do it again. And it’s like, I didn't even really know how I done it in the first place, if I'm honest. Like, do you get what I’m saying? It was just a cool song, sounded good, and it worked. And then it was just like, "Okay, make second single." And then made a second single while making the album and it was just—it was just moving, man. Everything was just—it was—it just happens. You know when they say like you—you wait your whole life for it to happen overnight? Literally waited a whole life for it to happen overnight. And it—and once it happened, it just didn't stop. It just kept—the ball kept rolling, man.
Were you prepared for it? Mentally, socially? Were you prepared for that train to pick you up and—and drag it off into your dream like that?
I don't think so, nah. But I think luckily, the only thing I wanted to do still at that time was make music. I think if I wanted to—I can see like how like, you know like an artist has a hit and then just all over the papers and just getting involved in different things. I can see how that can happen. Temptation, right.
Yeah, because you end up in other places other than where you should be. But for me it was still always about the studio. Like I'd go raving, but I'd go raving at 1:00 because the engineer’s tired or the producer’s tired and we finished—and I—I don't have the best night’s sleep. I don't sleep too well.
So it’s 1:00, yeah, I’d go out. But then tomorrow it was studio. Like it was always—I was always in and locked in, so I didn’t veer from that. So I think in a sense I wasn’t prepared for one side of it, but for what I needed to do I was prepared for. And I was serious about my half—my half of the deal, yeah.
And then so that album becomes a huge success—a real breakthrough moment for you. And then obviously when the album’s done, you have another pressure, right? Which is the expectation of that album, right?
Bro. Go again. Do you get what I’m saying? Like flip a coin ten times and get heads. Yeah. All right, cool. Now do another ten. Do you get what I’m saying? It’s literally like, how am I going to—yeah, get heads every time. Do you get what I’m saying? Get heads. Go and do it, bro. You done it? Do it. Go.
For me, like making music is the part that I’m in control of. I never feel pressured about that. Never. Because I have—I have what I have to say, I feel what I feel, and I’m going to pour all of that into music. I’m going to pour all of that into that album. No problem.
I just think at—at that time, what—what was getting tricky was Ministry was kind of happy that we’d had three top five singles and was kind of just, you know, more as a business, more happy to stay in that domain. Like, "Yeah, let’s just churn out the hits." And I think after "Black and White" and all of that, and all the thing like, you know, just I—I think I had a lot of frustration in me and—and—and it was—it was almost—it’s almost the side of my life which I—I saw my uncle and my dad and all of that talking about the police brutality.
Like that side of me was coming out. Whereas I'd always mentioned it in my music, I just felt like I—I wanted—I had something else to say. Do you know what I’m saying? Everything happened with Mark Duggan and all of that, and I was like, "I need to speak about what’s going on." And—and I think it was a—it was a bit of a difference of opinion. Do you know what I’m saying? Ministry of Sound wanted these kind of songs ain’t hit records. So it was a bit of—a bit of friction. So we had to work our way, you know, around that. And it was just about, you know, getting to the point where we could release that album, which was *Growing Over Life*. And it was just—for me, it was—it was important that I released that record, man.
And following "Black and White," when you look back on how you reacted and, you know, that tension with the label and stuff like that, in your maturity and wisdom now, is there—do you wish you'd behaved differently following the—the release of that album and its success? Is there something you wish you would have, you know, in—with the wonder of hindsight? Yeah, changed?
Nah. Yeah? Nah, because I wasn’t like—I wasn't aggressive. I just like to understand, I like clarity. And I think what—what can happen in an industry is not everybody wants to be crystal-clear. Whereas it’s like if—if you’re crystal-clear with it and say, "You know what? If we can get another 'Don’t Go' and another 'Tractor' and another 'Blackout', then whatever."
So it's like, all right, cool. Then you understand an assignment of what you're after. But it’s like if you're not being crystal-clear, then it kind of leaves you in limbo so you're sending in songs and it's just like—
And they’re not being clear about what they—how they feel?
Yeah, it's like the feedback’s a bit like "don’t think this one’s a single." It’s like, didn't say it was a single. Just said it was a song. Like, kind of thing. Do you get what I’m saying? So it’s like, yeah, just trying to gain understanding. I think that was what my frustration was—was like just gaining understanding.
But Twin B obviously, Twin B and Richard Antwi always kept it 100. Always was just like, "Look, if we can have if there's any moments where we can—" I think they—they’re like, "You need to say what you need to say, innit?" Do you know what I’m saying? "And if them other moments arise, we’ll find them. And you’ll engineer them. You’re the best at doing that. You know when you're comfortable to do it, you do it."
Do you get what I’m saying? "Ain’t no pressure coming from our way." And I came came up with "Six Words," which was—written within that—within that space and within that time and I was like, "All right, cool. I've got one. The one you want. Is the one you want." kind of thing. So, yeah. But I think with hindsight I didn’t—like I didn’t fly off the handle, I didn’t—I didn’t get angry, I’m not—I didn’t get aggressive. It—it was pointless.
Did—did you stray away from your like—your principal passion of making music through that phase? Did—did you find yourself like not showing up obsessed in the studio in the same way after that hit? Because sometimes when people reach the mountaintop, they—they lose a bit of orientation and motivation sometimes, and, you know, there’s other temptations. Now you got a bit of money, so you don’t need to be—the hunger’s slightly different.
Nah. Nah. Nah, love it. Like I think for me, always wanting to be the best rapper. Always wanting to say the sickest things, the things that people are like, "Rah, how did you get to that?" Do you get what I’m saying? Like so that—that never left me. So like there was always freestyles, there was always, you know, always raps, always verses, you know, collaborations.
Like at the time like my manager Zion used to say to me like, he used to be like, "Bro, sometimes you got to make something make sense. Like these people are asking you for a feature, they want to pay you 20 bags a verse or 10 bags a verse, and you're saying no, and your breadrin round the corner is rapping, you're giving a verse for free. Like we've got to—I'm not saying don't do the verse for free, but I'm saying there's—" Do you get what I’m saying? "There's some over here that make that verse make sense as well."
So it's like also as well navigation and just being like, "Oh yeah, yo, yo, yo, yo, you're right," kind of thing and just some things work well for positioning. Do you know what I mean? As well. But just always, yeah, just always wanting to be the best artist, man. Just always wanting to have the best album. I think that’s something that’s never left me.
And I think if that does leave you as an artist, that’s probably when it’s like—you know like when you see Mike Tyson in the ring at the end and he’s fighting some guy you haven’t heard of and he’s just mashing him up and you’re just like, "Mike, man. Do you get what I’m saying? Like, Mike five years ago you would have finished him," but it's like, Mike's not Mike. Do you get what I’m saying? Mike ain't got that—that same hunger. He don't love it anymore. Do you get what I’m saying? He’s the—the love’s gone, you can see it in his eyes. And I feel like if that happens to you as a musician, it’s, yeah, it’s not—it’s not good to kind of like mess up your legacy, man. Like.
One of the things that's always made you stand out, even when I listen to your Fire in the Booths—and I listen to all of them, I have them on replay. I actually played one last night to my girlfriend. I was like, "Wretch is coming to—" I was playing the one you did with is it Avelino? Avelino, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I play that one a lot. Um—is the subject matter of what you write about is—isn't about buying Rolexes and fast cars.
Now, as a young black man myself, um, I tend to feel a sense of disappointment when I go on Instagram and I see like the new school of like hip-hop artists all putting their hands in and showing their Rollies because for me it’s like leading, um, our people astray in the sense because I—I would like them to show their investment portfolio or the—the equity they have in businesses and stuff like that. Because like, you know, um, what’s your stance on that?
I actually was going to put some stuff on my story the other day because I saw—I don’t want to name names because it’s not about individuals, it’s about a culture—I saw some rappers that actually follow me, some big—big hip-hop UK rappers that follow me, all like showing off the material things, and it really disappoints me because I know there’s thousands—in this case there’s 800,000 people that follow this guy, and they're now going to aspire to buy Gucci before they invest their money or put it away. What’s your thoughts on this?
I think we've—growing up, yeah, I think like we were so like bedazzled by the American rap culture and we'd always seen them have things, have jewelry, have all these things and whatever. And I think even myself at a point, for me that was like a trophy or a measure of success. Do you get what I’m saying? Like the Rolex was a measure of success.
And I—and I think like—like I've heard you say yourself as well, it’s like once you get it, it’s like doesn’t really make you feel— Inside, yeah. Yeah, it doesn't really give you nothing like that. And I think we haven't had—we haven't had the luxury of—of information.
And I think information comes from people who look like you and people who have been through it and had success and are able to tell you. So now I’m in that position, I’m able to talk to a 18-year-old and be like, "Yeah, man, you can get that, but at the same time make sure you've got that."
Um, one of the dumbest things I'd ever done in my life—I don't think I've said this anywhere—is so obviously when I—out of my mom's, got a council flat. Bro, when I signed my deal, I left my house. I left the whole house and just went left the council, left—left it. Just left it.
But people at the time were saying to me, "Yo man, buy it. Like, why don’t you buy it?" And I’m like, "I don't—I'm not going to live here." Like, it was in Tottenham, I’m like, "I’m not going to live here. I’m going to—" Do you get what I’m saying? And they're like, "No, you don't. Just buy it." But the people that were telling me to buy it didn't own a house.
What do you know?
Yeah, what do you know? Like I live in Princess Park Manor. Do you get what I’m saying? Now like this is gated community, like this is way better than this. Bro, that—that was a very stupid mistake. I should have bought that, that would be my first one on the ladder. Do you get what I’m saying? They give you a discount, bloody-bloody-blah, whatever.
But even though I had the information, it wasn't coming from a success story. It wasn't coming from someone that had done it before. Do you get what I’m saying? So now I’m the first one that’s like, "Yo, where you going to rent? Like, think about what you're doing." Because then even myself, like I was in Princess Park Manor forever.
And even in there, like I wasn't ever like thinking about buying property. And they were like, "Don't you want to buy the one that you're in?" I was like, "Nah, I'm not going to be here forever." Like, in my eyes, property was you buy to live, not buy to let. And you can’t move. Yeah, do you get what I’m saying? So in my head I’m thinking, "No, I’m going to buy where I’m going to live." But I’m—I never really understood that, no, you can buy and move and just own it and then rent it yourself. Do you get what I’m saying? I didn’t really understand the—the principle of that.
So I understand—I understand why it happens. I understand why all—we want all these trophies. I get it. But I think it's—it's about people like myself who can now converse with the—with the younger lot and be like, "Look, man, like I get it, it looks nice, but bro, like this—music is Game of Thrones, bro. Music is—you see Game of Thrones? They kill the main character, bro." Do you get what I’m saying? They don’t mind doing that. Music is Game of Thrones, bro. You're Michael Jackson on Monday, you're Tito Jackson on Tuesday, bro. Like and then you can be Michael again by Sunday. Do you get what I’m saying? Like the music—it's musical chairs, bro. Like you have to understand we're not always going to be number one forever. So just make sure you're—you're buying a foundation for your foundation, man. Yeah.
When you had, you know, your first big breakthrough moment, at the time did you somewhere in your mind think that this was meant that you would be number one forever? Is there part of you that goes, "Oh, we've done it now" in terms of like "Now I know the—the equation"? Yeah. A bit of complacency maybe.
I kind of think—like the more you understand, because obviously at—at that time, there’s a—there’s a route to get to number one. And it’s like your song’s launched by Mistajam or Annie Mac, and then the pre-order’s out, and then you go for playlisting on Radio 1, 1Xtra, Capital, and there’s like a—there's a route that puts you on the pitch. Do you get what I’m saying? To get—to get it.
Intention to, yeah.
Yeah, there's a couple steps. But the problem is you can't believe in the route more than you believe in the fruit. So you can't think that this route can work with whatever fruit you give it. Do you get what I’m saying? You still—it still has to be a apple, bro. Do you get what I’m saying? Like it still has to be fruitful, it still has to be a record, a sick record.
Do you get what I’m saying? So then you know you—like we've had some records that I thought, "Yeah, like there’s one or two that I thought like the route can carry it." And then when the route don’t carry it, you realize like, "Dah, this don’t work every time. You don’t—once again, you don’t—" Yeah, yeah, yeah. "You don't get ten heads in a row, bro." You get what I’m saying? You get tails one time and then it's—and then it's how you bounce back from that.
Have you had to talk to you about bouncing back from that then? Because, you know, even as a fan of yours, like I’ll play—I’ll play records of yours when they drop and I’ll be like—I’ll say it—say it to my boys in my we got this little chat on WhatsApp, I’ll say "This one is a fucking—like this one is—" I’m like "This one’s going to be—" right? And then it might not get there and another one might.
You must have that all the time. And how do you manage the expectation of like building creating a project, you believing that it’s X, Y, and Z—I mean I do that with these podcasts as well, you just never know, right? Like which episode’s going to bang, right? And then putting it out there and that bit being out of your control. How does that feel? Like, and have you had moments like that where you’ve created something and put it out there and you go "What?"
Yeah, you have to understand that that’s the side that we’re not in control of. Do you get what I’m saying? Like. And as a artist just make it for you. Make it for you, put your best foot forward, but make it for you.
Because if I make a song that I think is rubbish but I think everyone’s going to like, yeah? And I put that song out, everyone likes it, it goes to number one. I now have to perform this song. This song is in my discography. This is in my catalog. Like my great-great-great-grandkids are going to hear this song. Do you get what I’m saying? And not even have had a conversation with me. That’s going to be their representation of their great-great-great-great-grandfather.
Be proud of your art, man. Do you get what I’m saying? Be proud of it. So for me it’s like I put my blood, sweat, tears and skin in my album. When it comes out, if they like it—if they don't like it—what can I—I can’t do anything more than I done. And I put my best foot forward. And I think you have to live by that, man. Because you either—you either have the hit that you don't like or you put out the record that you don't like and it's not a hit. So now you’ve got to—now you’re wrestling back to get back to where you were for something you didn’t even like anyway. Do you get what I’m saying? Just put your best foot forward, man.
And stay true to yourself.
Yeah, stay true to yourself, man. Because it’s your—this is your legacy. Like me now, I try and look at my—like it all made sense to me when I started seeing my career from the end till today. And I’m like, what—what navigates me is "Will I be happy with this at the end?"
So I make a song today and I’m listening to the tune and I’m like, "Will I be happy with this at the end? Yeah. It can work for today then." But if I feel like at the end I might feel like, "Ooh, I don't think you should have put that one out," it's not worth it. It’s not worth it. It’s not worth it, bro.
All you—what—what we got? How many? We get 80 years maybe now, whatever. You like—your legacy can—can quadruple that, bro. Do you get what I’m saying? Like have the right one. Have the right one. You’ve got—you are in control of that. That’s what you are in control of.
And you’ve had a taste of the like—the empty nature of like fame and like people writing about you every single second and people running up and fawning and all this stuff. You’ve tasted that. So what—what have you learned about what that means? Being on Dragon's Den now, I get it a little bit more. So I get people coming up to me and stuff and I’m in the early stages of like figuring out what it means to, you know, have Daily Mail reporters stand outside the house here and taking photos of me and my girlfriend when we walk out and I’m trying to understand what this attention means. Is it something I can use? Does it make me feel good? What is it?
It—it didn't make me feel good, man. I didn't—that’s one thing I’ve—I've always wanted to be in the shadows. Like I've always not wanted that part of it. Some people understand how to use it, though. Do you get what I’m saying? Because say for example you’re—you're designing clothing and it's like every time they shoot you, they’re putting it in a magazine. Do you get what I’m saying? Like you’re being—you’re being mass-exposed and your clothing’s being mass-exposed.
But it’s like if you don't have—if you don't wish for that, if you don't desire for that, then it’s like I—I feel like it’s—it was useless for me being in the front of certain magazines for—for nothing. Like nothing artistic. Do you get what I mean? And I know people say like any publicity is good publicity. I’m like, sometimes you can just be famous for nothing. And no one wants to be the guy that’s like the most famous person in the world and no money.
Do you know what I mean? Or—and I don’t say money like to be rich, I just mean like everyone knows who you are and everywhere you’re walking you’re stopping and having a conversation, taking a picture, taking a this, taking a that, taking a that, but like your thing’s not in order. Like you’re not going to feel good being that person. So like I just—yeah, I never really liked it, man. I never liked it, man. I was the one—I was hiding from the paps, man, all the time.
In your come-up, did you ever experience what they call like imposter syndrome? Walking into rooms and feeling like "What the fuck am I doing here?" or being in situations and going "How—like I don't know if I deserve this," that voice inside.
For a short period of time, but you know who made me overcome that? Richard Antwi. Like he—he passed away, but this—he’s such a champion. This guy would walk—he walks into any meeting fearlessly. Any—like you could be sitting down with the head of HMV or this and he’s going to tell them, "Yeah, you need to take 20,000 of our CDs and *da-da-da-da-da*," and you're just like, "Rah, like you're—" like he made me feel like, "You’re you, bro! Like you’re gold! You’re the gold as well, you know! You’re gold, bro! Like don't now walk into this room and because you think everything in here is gold, become silver! No, no, no, I'm gold as well!" Do you get what I’m saying?
And I think being around him and then that drip down to my manager Zion as well and he's got that thing as well where—bro, we were like—we were having like—I remember—I remember we were, um—we done a thing with Lucosade where they put us on like—
On the bottles?
Yeah, on the bottles, yeah. And I remember like us sitting down, we were like talking to each other. So we’re like, "Yeah, what do you want to put on the bottle?" It’s like, "Yeah, man, we want to put our estate on the bottle." But I’m thinking they’re going to say no. But they're like, "Yeah, yeah, that would be sick! Yeah, picture of our estate! Yeah, yeah, what else?"
"Yeah, man, and this and that and that." And I realized I was like you can get the things that you think you can’t get. You can get. Like you are the gold as well. There’s a reason why Lucosade want to partner up with Wretch 32. Do you get what I’m saying? There’s a reason. And it’s like sometimes we think it’s—they’re so big, they don’t—but they need—it’s a—it’s a two-way thing. It’s a two-way street.
So I think, yeah, for a short period of time I did, but then like Zion, Richard, Twin, like they just—they just made me understand the importance of like—
Knowing your worth as well.
Yeah, knowing your worth and just being fearless, man. Just walking into any room as me. Like and—and—like I did feel that as well at certain times because obviously now we see the festival lineups like Wireless and all that. Like you see Miss Banks, you see Stefflon Don, you see Ghetts, you see Giggs, you see—you see so many names.
2011 it wasn't like that, bro. You see Tiny, you might see Chip, you see Wretch. Do you get what I’m saying? It was like or certain festivals I’m the only representative of this genre. So it’s like when you’re stepping into that—like then you’re feeling like if I mess up—like if I even forget one line of my lyric, they ain't booking no one next year.
Do you get what I’m saying? So it’s like then the—you’ve got this thing where it’s like the fight's on where you're fighting for the scene. You know what I mean? And you got to wear it like a badge of honor. I remember like doing Glastonbury and like the guy who like books the tent—like he’s standing on the side or the—whatever thing—I can't remember what festival it was but they were standing on the side like just asking me bare questions. Like "Why do you have two drummers?"
It's just like, "Bro, I got electronic sounds on my album, he plays electric, he plays acoustic. Like so the—the music's going to sound exactly like the record." "Oh, how come you—sit stage up like this? How come? How come?" Like so many questions that I don't feel like you was asking anyone else.
You just wanted to check if we knew what we were doing. And at that point to be fair, no, everyone shooting in the dark. Do you get what I’m saying? Everyone—we're all guessing, bro, at that point. We're all guessing, bro. All shooting in the dark, just don't be the casualty. Don't be the one that gets hit. That was—that was the—the theory.
So, um, yeah, we just felt our way through, but them times I did used to feel a little thing. But then afterwards I was like, "No, man, I'm coming like—we're coming, we've got stuff to add, I've got hit records as well, they want to hear us." And—and the festival lineup needs to be more diverse. Like we're ten years after that now and the festival lineup is more diverse. But I do feel like at that time if Tiny Tempah wasn't turning up or Chip wasn't doing what he had to do, even Professor Green wasn't doing what he had to do, do you mean? Like Tinchy had to do what he had we had to get it right and we had to or I don't know if we'd be here today.
When you come from the estate, like you do, and you—and you end up in these like boardrooms and these fancy meetings with these, you know, rich white men in suits. Um—what I see in a lot of like young—young people from those—those kind of backgrounds is they kind of walk through life with a bit of a—an expectation that the cards are stacked against them.
Yeah. And I—I worry sometimes that that belief, whether it’s true or false—it is often true—the belief that the cards are stacked against you can be equally or—or more harmful than the cards actually being stacked against you.
Do you know what I mean? Yeah, the belief of the cards being stacked against you can be the deterrent of you even playing the game. Exactly. Do you get what I’m saying? "I don't even want to deal now. Like don't deal me in. Like it's no point. Yeah, because I'm going to lose. I'm going to lose anyway." You know what I'm saying?
But I don't know what that comes from. But I was fortunate, man. Like I can't—I can't say enough—like Richard Antwi—like just—just a G. He was a lawyer—he was a lawyer as well, a music lawyer, so he—he understood that side as well. So he could speak whatever language. Do you get what I’m saying? At any table. He could—like if they start talking about splits and points, he could—he could go there with you. Do you get what I’m saying? So when you’re walking into a game with that, bro, you—you have—you're fearless, bro.
Green Machine. You started this business with your um—business partner. And it's um—now I believe the largest CBD shop in Europe by number of shops that you have.
By number of stores square feet, they say. Yeah.
By square feet. Tell me about Green Machine.
Green Machine, um—if I'm honest I'm someone that like don't believe in paracetamols, I don't like take stuff like that. A mate of mine was always telling me that like he's going into this CBD space. And I’m like, "What’s CBD?" And he’s like, "It’s basically a natural alternative to medicine."
So I’m like, "Okay." He’s like, "It's going to be—it's going to be the future. Like it's going to be the future." So I’m like, "All right, cool. What does it do?" He’s like, "Well people come in—cancer patients, people with MS, people with fibromyalgia, people with lupus, people that can’t sleep, people that suffer with severe headaches."
Okay. And what does it do for them? It wouldn’t say cures them, but it helps them manage their illness. So I’m like, "All right, cool." So to me this sounds like paracetamol because I don't believe in paracetamol it don't work on me, so I haven't—I don't take it, I haven't taken it for years. So I’m "All right, cool."
So I go and link him and I get all the products, yeah? I get all the products and I give it out to family members. Someone’s got fibromyalgia, "Can you just try it and just tell me what happens? Like it’s absolutely nothing to do with me, just give me honest feedback." Severe headaches, you can’t sleep, anxiety, whatever. Giving it out, giving it out.
§02Transcript — part 2
Everyone came back and was like, "I couldn’t sleep, I’m now sleeping." Or the times when I was having joint problems, I’m rubbing the cream on and I’m—I’m okay. So I’m like, "All right, cool." I haven’t told these people this might potentially be anything to do with me, they’re just being honest. So I’m like, "All right, cool. What do I have that I can personally try?" So I’m like, "All right, I can’t sleep, so let’s try some of the oils." Try some of the oils, bro, I’m sleeping. I’m like, "All right, this is a real thing."
So then like I was like, "Cool, let me have a conversation with like the actual founder, yeah? A guy called Paul, who’s absolute genius in this realm. And I’m like, "What’s your story?" He’s like, "Well chronic arthritis," and he literally like has a cannabis background but he was using CBD to help manage his pain. And then he was like, "Well why can’t we open it as a business and, you know, start moving forward and helping people?"
You know, um—so yeah, and then I was just like I haven't like put a lot of time, focus and money into a lot of other things other than music and I’ve always been waiting to find something. But I wanted to find like—I didn't want to go down a clothing route. Like I want something that reflects who I am. I’m an individual who likes to help people. Do you get what I’m saying? Like a people’s person.
And I honestly think like this is like the future of medicine, man. Like and so hopefully, you know, it will go down the route where it’ll become prescribed. Like if you look at—if you—and—and for us it’s like it’s about growing the business. We’re—we're hoping to have like between 50 and 75 stores within the next three years.
Wow.
Um—and hopefully if it goes to the point where it—it does turn into like a—a formal chemist. Like the thing is with the chemist, you go there and you're like, "Oh, I've got a headache. What can I take?" They recommend you a thing. Or "I've got itch on my back." You can actually speak to someone and they can tell you, "Oh no, no, no, you're better off getting that cream, that works better for you."
Cool. Like we want to be that kind of version for people that come in because it’s—it’s a—it's a two-way education on the high street because people are coming in, a lot of people come with MS, a lot of people come with cancer. And I’m like, as much as everyone in the stores are equipped to tell them, there’s still new things to learn and there’s like still new ideas for different products. And it’s just a new space that, you know, I get to—to put some focus in. And it's—it’s something that I think is honestly going to benefit people as well.
And we’ve tried a lot of the products, they’re all amazing. This one actually tastes amazing as well, the grapefruit and mint drink. And we went down there earlier, we got some coffees and some of—some of the oils and stuff, the creams that I’m going to try as well. Super interesting. The other thing that you’re involved in, which I think is a fairly new thing, is the Def Jam position. So you’re now the Creative Director there?
Yeah.
That’s dope.
That is just mad. Yeah, it’s I’m working with a—like such a cold bunch, man. Like everyone—everyone's extremely talented, man, and I think for me more than anything like it’s sick to be on this side. Because understanding it from the other side—like being the artist coming into a office or coming into an environment, I’m going to know the answers to a lot of the things what they’re asking because I’ve been through it as well.
So um—always on my come up like I've always worked or had long conversations with artists that are coming like whether it be Stormzy or it be Avelino or it be Youngen, Krept and Konan—whoever it—whoever it may be. And I think like there was never like a role or a title or nothing.
And it’s like you’re not doing that for money or for finance. Like you literally want to see the game nourish, you want to see everyone blossom. So it’s like the game's got bigger and I think now it's about showing that we're able to work in the infrastructure and add value. Do you know what I’m saying? Like it’s—it's valuable an artist being inside to be able to speak to artists.
Do you know what I’m saying? To—to be able to create, to be able to implement ideas. Because what happens is you—like I say, like you jumped on the train at the beginning of 2011 and it just moved. And then I—I had to meet a tour manager and I had to meet a booking agent and all these things. And it's like I can literally talk you through everything step-by-step.
And that’s like if we’re signing artists at ground zero. Sometimes there’s artists that are already put a paper, he's already here, already established, he's signed to us. Um—but it’s like just having artistic conversations with artists. Do you know what I mean? And I think it’s beautiful, man. I wake up and think art, wake up and think creative. So to be able to be in a space where I’m able to do that with artists that I love and respect, with people that I love and respect as well, win-win, man.
Earlier on you said "till death do us part." I notice you um—don’t have a wedding ring on.
Nah, no, no.
No, no wedding ring. What's the situation there? Are you in a relationship, are you dating? What's the—
Yeah, in a relationship. Not married.
Have you—have you struggled with relationships or have you found it—being a fairly obsessive person—because throughout your story I heard I saw this word "hunger" over and over again, even when other people described you. And I'm thinking back to Ashley on that kitchen table getting annoyed at you, you know.
Yeah, I—I think I’m understanding balance a lot more. I think that’s come with maturity and that’s come with age. Like balance is important. I had no balance back then. None. It was all about making this happen.
And I don't know if it's because it happened. Do you get what I’m saying? And maybe if it doesn’t happen, maybe we don't get this version of me where I'm more understanding that you've got to divide time.
I think also what—what was a big eye-opener for me, like once again talking about jumping on that train, yeah, um—from like 2011 to 2014, 15, bro, certain times my family’s having conversations, yeah, and I’m like, "What? When was that?" and they’re like, "Oh no, no, that was when you were off."
Off.
Yeah, it's like I was—it's like I was dead for four years. Or I was just off the grid. And it's like—it's never ever sat well with me. Do you know what I’m saying? So now like I make a conscious effort, conscious decision to be like as someone who is the—the backbone and the head of the family, to be it. Do you get what I’m saying?
Because there’s two types of—of men that head the family, and it’s—and it’s one that everyone’s financially okay and when if there's any red letters, but then there's a—there's the one that’s able to do that but is also there as well. Like a hour on the phone or let’s go and sit down and talk for four hours is as powerful as someone who can make a bill vanish.
Do you get what I’m saying? And I think in 2011 I was more the other guy. "Yeah, yeah, I'll—I'll sort it out, I'll get um—phone this person they can sort it out, phone—" Like someone can sort it out. I'm sorting it out. But it was like I'm missing. And it doesn't make me feel good, man. I missed graduations and—do you know what I mean? Like so much things that because you're busy, they might not invite you to now. Because we asked you to come last week but you couldn’t make it. Like, "I was genuinely out of the country, but maybe I could have made that one but you didn't ask." Do you know what I mean? So like it doesn't feel good, man.
I think I’m probably "red letter guy" now.
It's horrible, bro.
Yeah, and not giving enough attention to family in that regard, like.
How do you—how do you balance it? Or you—
With my family, it's really—it's really a difficult thing. Um—they kind of live all over the place as well, so they don’t all live in one place. So really like what I do is I try and bring everyone together for Christmas and I fund the situation at Christmas. Um—but I know I'm not doing a good enough job and it's something I want to work on.
Fortunately I met a—a young lady who is very unnegotiable about balance. Yeah. And like I genuinely feel that if I don't—I gotta make sure my terminology’s correct here, because sometimes—sometimes when people describe their relationships, especially people that are really obsessive, they—they start to use words like—which—which—which make it seem like I’m doing something to please someone so that they don't go.
Yeah.
Where it’s not. It’s "I want to do it," but she has given me the desire to want to be balanced in my life. Which means like today, during the work day, I went for lunch with her then came back quickly and like carried on with my research on you and stuff. I would never have done that before. Yeah. I would have just woken up in the morning 8:00 and I would have worked till 1:00 AM until I'd fallen asleep, and then I would have said to whoever I was with, probably kind of like gaslighted them in some way and said like, "Oh, you don’t understand."
Yeah, no, no, you found the right person then. Yeah, because then you want to—then you want to do it, it's not complying. Yeah, then you want to. Do you know what I’m saying? Then you want to. It's—it’s about balance, man. It's about balance. And like even me with the kids as well, like I got a my son's 15—
15, yeah.
Yeah, my daughter’s 10. It’s like that balance as well, like it—you know at the time when I had my daughter and we then—you know then but we separated and it was like it hurts me. Like my daughter, she has no recognition—recognition of living with me.
Hmm.
Do you know what I’m saying? It’s like she’s like, "Yeah, my mom—my mom said like we used to live—" I’m like, "What do you mean? Course I used to live there. You used to wake up and come to me and—" she can't remember. Then I’m like, "You need—I need to overextend to build this relationship" because my son has that, we've had that—waking up, him going to sleep, waking up seeing me. Do you know what I’m saying?
And it’s just them little things where it’s like the kids will come over and I’ll be like, "Oh, we’re going to do this," and she—my daughter might say to me, "Oh, I have to ask my mom." So it’s like her concept of a dad was probably more like an uncle. Yeah. Do you get what I mean? Like you know like to your uncle you’ll say, "Nah, I got to ask my mom," but not to your dad. But it’s like she had to—I was like, "No, no, me and your mom on the same level." Do you know what I’m saying? But because she’s not seeing me every day, like or waking up to me or, you know what I mean? I’m not tucking her in. I was just like, "Bro, I had to—" Like it was so important that we—we get here, we get here, we get here and we’re here now, but it took—it takes time to rebuild, man. So it’s better you build it than have to rebuild it as well.
What if um—you know when you were shouting those CDs and trying to get people to buy those—those first thousand CDs from your mixtape, *Learn From My Mixtape*. What if it just hadn't worked out? Has that ever crossed your mind? What if just, you know, what if it didn't—didn't work out?
Had to. It had to. Like the Plan B was revert back to Plan A. Anytime you felt like you needed to remotely think about doing something else, it was "Revert back to Plan A." It was always—it was always going to happen.
There's a lot of people that think that and it just doesn't work out, you know? Does that haunt you a little bit just think—
I think—I think my need was too much, man. My need was too—I became too good at it. Like the obsession made me better, made me more hungry. I just—I just became a monster, man. I just—I'm—like no one can rap like I rap. Do you get what I’m saying? But that’s because I’m listening to everyone rapping and I’m like, "All right, cool, how—rah, this what they doing, yeah? All right, triple rhymes, cool, I’ll do quadruple."
Do you get what I’m saying? Like I was always trying to challenge, trying to push, trying to push, trying to push. And like when you’ve been rapping like when your year group is like Ghetts or Kano or, I mean, or Giggs or whatever, like that’s—that’s like man’s age group. They're my age mates. So it’s like when you’re listening to Ghetts and he’s doing that, you’re like, "All right, cool, I can’t even flip a second."
Do you know what I’m saying? "I’ve got to—I've got to push, I've got to push, I've got to push." I couldn’t—it had to happen, man. I—I don’t see any—the story wasn’t ending any other way or like this story wasn’t having any other middle.
And what would you say to musicians that, you know, are now coming up in this world of TikTok and, you know, what—what do you think they need to—to make it and to follow in your footsteps? Now that you also know the industry as well and the inner mechanics of that.
Because TikTok is—TikTok is powerful now, man. It’s the new tastemaker, it’s the new library. Yeah, it’s the new discovery, man. And it’s like—remember when I said that there was a formula. And it was like, if that DJ plays it first on Thursday and then—TikTok is a part of that formula now. Like you put a song on that sounds a certain way, it gets a certain amount of views and—that’s an indicator to the record labels that this song is going to be amongst, you know, on the playing field of the—the hit playing field.
It's—it’s become that. And I think you can use it to your advantage, but I guess once again, like the part we are in control of is the song, is the quality. Like always make sure the quality is top-notch regardless, because all the things—everything else will change, bro. Like Michael Jackson put out tapes, vinyls, now Chris Brown goes on streaming platforms. Do you get what I’m saying? And I launched records on radio first, now they launch records on TikTok for—the information, everything will change, bro. But the quality will always remain. You can't skip it, you can't skip leg day, man.
You acting me there. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where um—the last guest writes a question for the next guest. And they don't know who they’re writing it for. They always ask, but we never tell them. So, they’ve actually written two questions, which is interesting. The first question they wrote, I’m going to read them both at the same time, is: "What for you is a life well lived?" And then they wrote: "How do you make the most of this moment?"
A life well lived is waking up every day and having multiple reasons to smile. And within that making multiple people smile. Um—I always think like life is a record. So you know the record, put the—the needle on and it comes inwards. So this coming inwards is getting smaller and smaller and smaller then it gets to the end in the middle and it stops. And my thing is like: What song are you listening to while your—your time span is shortening? Is it something that's—that's—that's full of purpose, something that's making you smile and something that's energizing other people? And—and and for me it’s like I want to be able to be a positive soundtrack for key moments in other people's lives as well. So a life well lived is me being happy, bringing happiness and being able to also add a soundtrack to people's happiest moments.
Dope answer. Dope answer. And the second question was: "How do you make the most of this moment?"
How do I make the most of this moment? Living it, man. Living it. And I think appreciate it as well. I think um—I say living it because it’s—it’s easy to be on that train, I keep going back to that train. It's easy to be on that train and just to keep going, keep going, keep going. But for me, we don't meet anyone for no reason. There’s no meaningless conversation. You know, there’s always something to take from a conversation that you thought, "What the hell was that about?" Do you know what I’m saying? Because we’re all, bro—
The thing I think about most, especially when I’m on the go but also when I’m sat here in the Diary of a CEO studio, is the Wi-Fi and internet that we have to work with. In fact, any time I’m filming away from the studio, one of the first things I do when I arrive is open up an app and do a speed test to see how strong the signal is. And the number of screenshots I’ve sent to my team about Wi-Fi signals at different locations is actually pretty crazy. It matters that much to me because it’s such a competitive advantage to have fast Wi-Fi. Because on any given day, if I’m recording, let's say, hours and hours of footage with a podcast guest, I then often have to have my team send that across to our London team who then do the edit. So fast Wi-Fi and internet is not a nice-to-have; it is absolutely business mission-critical.
So, when it came to finding the best provider who could supply internet and Wi-Fi to our new LA studio, which I’m sat in right now, we looked at every single option. And of all the providers, the one that came back with the steadiest connection, as well as being the cheapest, was today’s sponsor, Spectrum Business. Spectrum Business keeps businesses of all sizes connected with fast, reliable internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, and mobile services. Millions of business owners already rely on Spectrum to keep their operations connected. So if you want to join them, head to spectrum.com/business to learn more. That’s spectrum.com/business. Restrictions apply; service not available in all areas.
Corporate credit cards, cash flow management, centralizing spend, help with catching fraud—a powerful corporate card program needs to do a lot. So it should be designed to help work with your business. That’s why with the American Express Corporate Program, you can customize key elements to match your company’s needs. Explore and apply from a variety of card types based on employee roles, select liability and billing options that fit your needs, add spending controls to support compliance, and decide whether earning rewards or cash back in the form of a statement credit delivers more value for your business. Learn more and start customizing your corporate program at americanexpress.com/corporate. Terms apply.
When your cat is acting weirder, or your dog is being louder, your turtle moves slower—Hello, Ted!—your cat seems thirstier—Whoa, slow down buddy!—or your puppy is acting clumsier... Day or night, if you don't know what's wrong, know where to go. VEG: ER for Pets. This is Kade, the better, kinder ER for pets.