A Billionaire’s Guide To Healing Your Mind And Extending Your Life - Christian Angermayer

When your cat is acting weirder, or your dog is being louder, your turtle moves slower. Hello, Ted? Your cat seems thirstier. Whoa, slow down buddy. Or your puppy is acting clumsier. Day or night, if you don't know what's wrong, know where to go. Veg ER for Pets. This is Kate. Veg, the better, kinder ER for pets.

I do personally think it's the best thing I've ever done in my whole life, full stop. And I was like, look, you're clearly insane. I've never drunk alcohol and I'm not going to touch an illegal drug. But the biggest interference is death. It's not my—I don't choose the time, I don't choose—and we need to change that.

My guest today is a friend, but he's also most definitely the most interesting human being I have ever encountered in my life. He's an entrepreneur, he's an investor, but he's also just a really nice guy. And he's invested in and started companies in some of the most fascinating industries, from psychedelics to space tech, to artificial intelligence, to cryptocurrencies, to fintech. You name it, he's in there.

In fact, he's the single biggest investor and driving force behind the whole psychedelics industry, which is currently trying to cure mental health disorders. This is, undoubtedly, the most interesting person I know. And I think this is the type of podcast where you're going to demand a part two, because we spoke for two hours and even I was left feeling that I was only scratching the surface and that I wanted to know more.

The man I'm talking about is Christian Angermayer. And I genuinely believe he's going to become, if he isn't already, one of Europe's most important investors and entrepreneurs. In the same way that people praise Elon Musk for all the work he's done in the US, I think he's Europe's answer to Elon Musk. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

Christian, I know so much about you and the work you do. I've observed your behavior in person over the last six to twelve months, and it's deeply, deeply fascinating. But the part of you that I know very, very little about is your early years, your upbringing, your childhood.

Cute child. I think I was a cute child.

I've only had slithers of that part of your life. So could you tell me a little bit more about the childhood that made the man?

The main point I'm always making, which I'm literally happy about, is that I was a very, very happy child. Meaning I'm still a very happy person, but I think the reason why I'm groundedly happy is because I had a great, how do you say, childlike upbringing. I was growing up in a ninety-people village in Bavaria. I literally knew everybody.

Then there were a lot of other children. I'm an only child, but I had a lot of children of sort of the same age, plus/minus four years, to grow up with. And we were literally like in a TV series; we were out all day, in summer and winter. It was very much like you would picture those American TV series where they are on a farm or whatever. It was like that.

An idyllic childhood upbringing.

Really idyllic. No crime, no risk. My mom literally sent me out in the morning in summer and winter, and I came back in the evening. Since I was five, because there was no risk for anything. That was the case until I was nine, and then we moved to a town—I can't say city—a town with about two thousand people. So it's nearby, a kilometer apart.

So it was all very, very rural, which I liked. I was actually thinking about, if I have children, how to recreate that, which I think won't work so well. But I think it's great to have nature. Which is also, by the way—already jumping—but because you know that I do a lot in mental health work, and one thing which is really healthy and very simple for your mental health is nature. In Japan, they even prescribe a walk in the forest as a treatment for depression.

So I grew up in this super nice childhood. I always was, funnily, very entrepreneurial. And nobody else is—not in my family, not in this village. So that was always, literally like with six... my mom still has the first thing which I did when I learned writing, which was writing invoices. Tiny bills, like "give me five cents for salad." So I actually had a very flourishing gardening business since I was four or five.

How was that going?

I stopped it later on when I was twelve. But this is how I started my first business. But my mom still remembers that the first thing I did with my writing skills was writing her an invoice for salad and everything. And then I was literally like in a movie, very stereotyped, but I was selling lemonade to neighbors, then I was selling lollipops in school. I was selling literally everything.

I made a business out of everything. I remember when I went to my first cinema ever, I think I was seven, and I was so fascinated that people are buying for something which is apparently also on TV. I didn't get the difference. So then I started charging my parents at home when they wanted to switch on the TV because I was pretending I was running a cinema. So literally everything I was doing, I saw through the lens of a business.

And when you look at your childhood, were your parents deeply worried?

They were worried in a nice way. They look like me, so the discussion if they may be not my parents was early off the table. But from the way how I see the world, I'm very different.

What were the factors, the sort of macro factors at play, that were making you into this entrepreneur at that age? Sometimes I think for myself, because my parents were never around, they created this big void of freedom and independence which I thought made this connection in my mind that if I was going to get something, it came from my behavior. I'm thinking about those factors like freedom, you said your parents were very keen for you just to be happy.

Exactly, they were always like, "I can be whatever I want." But I don't know if that automatically leads to entrepreneurship. It could also have led to me being an artist or whatever. I don't think there is a connection between freedom—it's actually the freedom to be whatever you want. And then I think maybe it's genetic, maybe it's—I don't know. It was always there. There is not a moment I can think of where I sort of changed, but it was literally since I can think, since I'm four, five, six. Very early, it was always there to make a business out of everything. In a nice way, hopefully.

That, coupled with some kind of innate curiosity. Peter Thiel said in a quote about you in Sifted, he said that curiosity is one of your real...

Yeah, I'm just thinking if that was that early visible. I loved school, which I think I was a very nerdy child as well. I loved school actually for one reason, and even if I look back now, I really miss it a bit, because it was the only time in life where you do something for the pure reason of learning something with no material sort of—meaning I turned that then also in a business because I started my first real business when I was fourteen, which was a tutoring business.

Tutoring like giving lessons to other kids?

Yeah, because I was extremely good in school. I was always the best one in my school, but I was practically always the best one in Bavaria, or top ten. And I was always—I like to explain stuff. I think that still helps me now because it's part of fundraising to explain complex sort of things to people. Anyway, so I did like to explain stuff and I was good in the matter, so I started tutoring.

Then there was this tiny thing; because the teachers very much liked me because I was always the good child, everybody who came to me automatically became a little bit better because teachers were treating these children more nicely because they were coming to me. So it became this sort of positive virtuous circle that more and more parents were like, "Oh god, we have to send our children to Christian because it really works."

And what were you doing for these kids?

Tutoring, teaching them the same thing because they were the ones who didn't perform well. And they were my peers, same age or younger. It was mainly a little bit younger, one or two years, but not a lot younger. Anyway, and then I was like after half a year, I was so full. I think I worked like ten, fifteen hours a week practically all the time I was tutoring. And then I was like, how do I really scale that up?

It sounds now very banal, but for me this was like the first time I really thought about business in an entrepreneurial way—how do you scale it up? And practically I realized I have the brand because parents want to send their children to me. So I was employing other pupils, my same age or even a little bit older, and said, "You can teach under my brand and you get half of it and I get half of it." So, 50% margin. And I started employing and I continuously till my final grade had like ten people always employed who were tutoring other children. So it was a very lucrative business for a child.

That's crazy. And then you get to sixteen, you get to eighteen. In that period of your life, I hear that in Bavaria they have this like public service you've got to do for a year?

I was just thinking how compliant do I have to be because then it's all—nobody can claw it back. Because what happened is that I was always extremely libertarian. And we had back then—it changed in Germany—but we had back then like the Israelis have still, you had to go to the military for a year.

And I think in general this is wrong. Not because I'm against the military, but I think you can employ people, this is a job. People should want to be a soldier or should want to be something else. But I think as a government—I think the less government the better. So I was thinking all the time how to avoid it.

Unfortunately, I was not daring enough back then. There were tricks to do it, you could have said you're mentally ill or whatever. I was not brave enough to go on with that. So I decided to do—you could also opt to do civil service. You could go to a hospital or whatever. And I tried to be really nice, so I picked a job which I knew didn't really require me.

It was more like you had to put these children who didn't want to go to the military—you could say you're a pacifist—you had to put them somewhere. It was not that somebody was dependent on me. So I was sitting in that hospital and my only job was to bring stuff from A to B. Then I made a proposal that if we reorganize everything in that hospital, I could do my job in an hour and then go home. This was when I was eighteen, and then they were like, "Okay, this is crazy." I was not really, really popular.

And then I made the decision that I'm not really going to show up anymore. And the only way to do that was to get always doctors to give me a letter. But now comes the important part, because until that time I was extremely—I loved learning, so I was actually thinking I'm going to—if I would have gone, and I think this is also sometimes how crazy stuff happens and then it changes sort of the whole course of your life practically.

I think if I would have gone from high school to university, I would have just been in that sort of mode of learning, being extremely good. So I guess I would have just went on with what I was doing, meaning producing great academic outcomes so to say. So then came this one year which I was completely bored, so I got these doctors writing me letters that I didn't need to show up.

But in return, I started managing money for them. Because I was already speculating on the stock market since I was fifteen, sixteen and I was not bad at it. So I became friends with all of these doctors even in the hospital I was working, and they were all like, "Well we help you if you help us." Because this was the early days of... it was 1998, 1999, this was the stock market boom. So everybody wanted to be in it. So this was sort of my trade-off for these letters.

And so, and I can't be—I'm easily bored, so I always want to do something. So practically because I was not the type of person who said, "Okay, I have a free year now and I'm going just partying," I was like, "Okay, I have a free year now, I'm going to do more tutoring and I'm going to do managing money for these doctors."

And sort of that completely switched my course. So I was in this... I actually wrote a book and tried to sell that, this didn't work out. But I did a lot of entrepreneurial stuff just because I had time. And then when I practically went to uni then a year later, I was sort of mentally not anymore in that sort of learning world. I was in the "okay, I want to be an entrepreneur" world.

And then this is sort of when I met, re-met actually two guys who finally were my tutors in a scholarship I had had during high school already, for highly gifted children. So I was sort of in summer school, I was at university, this is where I knew them from. We re-met kind of and they were telling me about this idea and it just sounded great. And they were like my tutors in terms of—I was like, okay these guys are the pinnacle of biotech. And then I was the one who said let's do a company together. And we did, and this worked out really well, and then I dropped out of uni.

So this is how I think... I think without this one year in hospital or not in hospital, I would have stayed on a completely different path.

I hear you talk a lot about you believing in serendipity of moments and spirituality. Which almost seems surprising because you're such like a scientific-led person, whereas you do believe that things happen at the right time.

Totally, totally. Actually, I'm actually very extreme with that. So I... everything which is happening, literally everything...

This conversation today?

Well, this conversation happens because we planned it. But like the fact, for example, that we met originally via our mutual friend, whatever. So I'm always everything which is happening to me which I didn't actively say, "Hey, I need to have a meeting," which is not in my usual rhythm, I always think A, it's happening for a reason, and also it's happening for a good reason. Even bad stuff.

I believe in this power of positive thinking, but like more like people always then say, "Ah, this means like if you wake up in the morning, you if you feel great, it's gonna be a great day." I think it's more deeper. I believe in this—that there is this great book, *Law of Attraction*. Like whatever you sort of think and rather how you think, not just the—meaning sort of the essence of what you think, not like the detail partly but more the essence. And if you expect sort of good stuff to happen, you sort of attracting that.

Do you think there's a spiritual force that attracts it or do you think your intention moves you in that direction?

So look, I'm very pragmatic. First of all, I dare to talk about that stuff because I'm very also scientific. So I'm like, look, nobody will think I'm crazy. Maybe a bit. No, I'm joking. There are multiple explanations and I don't really care about the explanation. You can have a very spiritual explanation—the force of the universe. And then you can have a very pragmatic explanation that if you continuously expect positive stuff, then you look out for that stuff and then it's more like a numbers game. But and I don't care, it works tremendously well for me since I'm sixteen.

And I had these... I had some very crazy things which go borderline which you could explain sort of with statistics or whatever. So maybe too crazy for this podcast. But there were some things where I tend to believe in the spiritual explanation because they were, yeah, I think harder to explain or you can always explain them with statistics, but you know what I mean. But I don't care, it does work tremendously well for me.

Okay, so going back to this company you founded with these two, your two sort of like university mentors. This company went on to be really successful. I think you said it's worth probably about 15 billion at last check, market cap.

Today, but I sold very early. But we went early... I sold when we went public for a billion. So it was one we were actually...

Do you regret selling?

Well, there's a short and long answer. No, because the short answer is no because that money was the basis for the rest. Also people always mix up market cap and share price. So I sold at a lower share price than it is today, but the share price is not 15X because they did capital increases, there was dilutive stuff. So anyway, long story, it was an amazing start.

It was actually the quickest biotech IPO I think in Germany ever. We IPO'd three years, three and a half years later after foundation. And for a billion, so was everything. And that was sort of I dropped out of university before, but that was the sort of catalyst I would say, yeah. So I don't regret that. And since then, sort of I'm investing and being an entrepreneur, somewhat in between I would say.

I actually—sorry when I'm jumping—I had these one story again by the way which is completely you can... serendipitous and like even a bit more. So I remember it exactly, I was fourteen years old and I was with my best friends back then in Munich. Which is far away, meaning for me this was like going to the big city. And we spent the weekend with family members. I remember every single detail of the weekend—what we did and like where, what.

And then we went to a bookstore, which is for Germans who listen, Hugendubel is a back then was like the sort of iconic bookstore, hundred years old in Munich. I think it's still even there although bookstores are dying out, smaller. So it's in the prime location of Munich. And so I remember it, so I go into that bookstore and there was this whole how I say promotion wall with just one book, which is the American *Think and Grow Rich* from Napoleon Hill.

And you know like when in movies like the fourteen-year-old boy goes in and then the light is coming down and then the Hallelujah is coming, sort of that. Meaning there was no music, there was no light. And I was like, that's it, *Think and Grow Rich*. I need to have that book. So I bought the book and it was practically my first kind of... Napoleon Hill is not as spiritual as some others, but that was my journey into that world of let's say spiritual-infused success books.

How would you define spiritual?

Well, there is like Napoleon Hill is sort of—and I love it by the way because they're all so old, they're all out of the 1920s. So they don't have the zeitgeist, which I think in terms of success is rather negative, so it's sort of like raw American horny principles. Exactly. And Napoleon Hill has—this is why it was a great entry into that thing because his view was—the book starts that he says he got commissioned by Andrew Carnegie, who was this steel magnate, to find out and do interviews—which I think by the way you are doing in a certain way—with successful people and find out if there are common denominators which make them successful.

And he did that with all the famous people of his time, from Andrew Carnegie himself to a lot of other famous people. And then he made that into that book and he's actually saying that—the question he doesn't answer the question why these rules so to say work, he's more a neutral observer.

And then the next one is actually there's a guy called Dr. Joseph Murphy who wrote similar books but more like with the spiritual undertone why these rules work. Same rules, sort of more explanation why they work, which went more into the religious world. And then you have all the other books and Law of Attraction is nothing else which is sort of the modern version and *The Key* which is sort of a simplified version of an anyway simplified version of this stuff. But it's at the end it's always the same rules. Some which think it's they are God-given, some which say, "Look, again this is statistics," whatever, but they do work. I deeply believe and these things do work.

Because like visualization, the way you think?

It's visualization, is that the main thing I think is two things—it's visualization. So I meditate in the morning and evening, but it's not real meditation, it's more like visualization. So I exactly—I always have a plan for the week, for the month, for the year, for my life. And everything kind of did come true so far.

So I'm always thinking for what could I add? Like a wishlist. And now again you can say if you add something and then you focused on it, it might come true because you focused on it. There could be a very banal explanation that it's relentless execution and nothing magic. And again I don't care. I'm like, well it does work.

And then the I think it's the two thing is visualization and it's also this that you have—for example I'm not—it sounds very crazy but I'm trying to not have negative thoughts. So and then there is a number of negative thoughts you're gonna have anyway because you have to deal with stuff when you run a business, but I for example have never watched a horror movie since twenty years, at least.

Because it gives me negativity. So I and I go the extra mile. So I told for example friends when they are too much complaining... meaning I'm the first one friends can call for a problem, but then I'm like, let's go through the problem, that's the solution, that's what you're gonna do. But if they would repeatedly because some people want to not solve the problem, they want to repeat the problem, then I'm like you can't call me again on that topic because no negativity.

So I really have a rule—no negative movies, I never watch a movie which has not a happy ending. So I have people check or I check before does it have a happy ending? No bad endings. Nothing which makes me sad, nothing which makes me negative. Because I'm not—I'm not allowed in my own religious philosophy to have negative thoughts and feelings. Feelings are even more important than thoughts because I think they are the underlying driver.

And it sounds now maybe cheesy and simplified, but I think if you this is what I'm doing since I'm fourteen. And if you train yourself not and again you will always have an sort of amount because sometimes hard things happen. I don't want to pretend as if my life was easy because I did have very hard times in business.

But even in those times I was lying in my bed literally and was like, "Okay this is not fun what's happening right now, but it must happen for a very, very positive reason because this is how the world works." And funnily, it always... the worst things in my life turned into the best ones. Because I—again and you can say now maybe somebody would say well because he was persistent and he didn't fall. Okay, then this is the explanation. Maybe there's a deeper one. Again I don't care, I can always come to back. But I would tell everybody the two things emotionally is like don't have negative thoughts, just focus on positive sort of thoughts, visualize—these are the key things. Be happy.

So many things that you know and dare to be happy. Because most people again don't allow themselves to be happy and even think it's a little bit negative. Toxic. So there's this whole thing happening on Instagram that I want to come back to this point about this movies and because I think it's very much linked to your whole thing about alcohol and stuff—this happiness equilibrium you talk about.

But just quickly on that point of being really positive and unapologetically positive and saying listen don't call me with the same problem twice, don't interrupt my positivity. There's this whole movement happening on Instagram at the moment where there's such a thing as being toxic positive it's called.

That's bullshit. Like, really. No and I like we can on this point... because that's one—meaning again maybe I'm sitting there, I'm already so old that there is another generation I'm thinking about the other generation. And because I'm reading a lot like very old stuff and you find Socrates complaining about the youth. So maybe that's a recurring thing.

But I really think part, part of the millennial culture of this victimization and always like blah this is so wrong, this is so wrong. So to pre-take a question because then normally people would say well you saying that because you're rich, you're white, so I was like okay this is maybe a point let's go back because I didn't talk a lot about it but I'm happy to talk about it like I grew up in this ninety-people village. I'm gay. I'm actually happily gay, but I look... meaning I know I'm gay since I'm elevenish around about.

So and I was looking at sort of that world I was growing up in and I was like, that's not going to resonate here. Seriously, like and that's very, very positive phrased. So in my school people were saying, "Let's beat up gay people." And I was like, that's not going to end well. So but I didn't think this is anything bad by the way. I didn't even think these people were sort of wrong—obviously they were wrong—but I was like they don't know better. I'm not like ah these are bad people, I was just like be pragmatic.

Sometimes life is not fair, sometimes life is not nice, but you can decide if you react on it. That's one of the other points I really believe in, that you have these tiny millisecond in life on everything—if somebody is sort of rude to you, if somebody says something very bad and you can decide if you're hurt or not. It's your decision by the way. Nothing's gonna hurt you if you decide you're not gonna be hurt.

So and I was like they don't know better and I can—and by the way gay is not what defines me. So I was like, well then I'm not gay for a while till I'm out of here. I can have because there are other things which define me like friends, like you know what I mean. It's not that I reduce myself to this one thing and was like and now I need to shout it out to the world. And in return would have get beaten up.

I was just like just don't do it, but don't blame the others and then move away somewhere. Also I mean this whole like don't try to change everybody else. Work on yourself and like and your environment what you can change. Like I could have started like "Oh my god my life is miserable and I'm growing up in this village and blah blah blah."

And actually talk about serendipity. I'm honestly—but again I'm trained to see the positive stuff—if I look back, if I would have been straight I wouldn't sit here. For a very simple reason: because I would have dated every single free minute I would have had and would have enjoyed that. So but I couldn't. So what did I do? I was working my ass off and learning all the time.

So and if I hadn't had the grades I had, I would have never had the first money I had, I would have never met these guys with whom I started a biotech company. Nothing would have happened. I would have been an ordinary straight boy, most likely smart but not uber smart because sometimes it's smart and hard work to get grades. It's not all falls from... so practically the if you say like the adversary or the negative thing being gay in a very hostile environment and not talking about it and focusing on other stuff completely made my life. In a very positive way. I would never—I am so happy that this was the case.

And again and everybody should look, everybody has limitations and negative stuff, but you should look at it and say they are there for a very positive reason and something amazing will come out of it. I just need to have these continuous sort of expectation and optimism.

And you have a real sense of like personal responsibility that comes across, like you'll take responsibility for yourself and your actions.

But who else? Who else should be like? The government or someone? Then we see it with the vaccine. Give the government a little bit of responsibility and it goes totally wrong. You don't want anybody be responsible for you than yourself.

So going to this point about the horror films which I thought was somewhat connected to what I've heard about your rule with alcohol and cigarettes. You've—I hear you've never drunk before, ever. You've never had a drink.

Exactly, so there were two reasons for it, and they were connected. The one again by the way the one reason was because I was actually thinking like if I'm gonna be drunk 14, 15, I'm gonna spill out I'm gay and then it's over. So my social life of being the darling of the school... imagine that day. Exactly.

No, and I was also like I was very nerdy, so teachers loved me but I was also school speaker, speaker of the school, whatever. So I was socially had a great life. So I was like no let's not risk that, no alcohol, you could say the wrong stuff. So there was the one thing and the other thing was that I always sort of because you do that as a child or in general and I think it's a good thing like if you have one weakness, in my case the weakness for the time was being gay, the other you build on your strength which was like okay I think I'm kind of smart and also like smart in terms of learning smart. I learn very easy, I always had the best grades.

So I was focusing on that. So I was also like okay alcohol could take that away from me because I thought it makes me dumb, which by the way does, in a lot of amounts. I still wouldn't drink. But these were my childish reasons not to drink. And then I just decided okay I think I have the perfect equilibrium like being always happy, having very good grades, everything was perfect. So I was like I'm not gonna touch any drug ever.

And you still haven't touched alcohol, cigarettes?

No, so I haven't drunk alcohol, I haven't smoked a cigarette ever, I haven't smoked a joint ever, I have never take cocaine, I haven't done anything. No comment. I did actually drink—alcohol, sorry coffee—the first time when I was 28.

So you avoided coffee as well?

I was even avoiding coffee and tea because it was a drug. It was almost like the very religious people, so I would have been a good Mormon. But then coffee I started drinking when I was 28.

There's something crazy here where you think okay so the guy that doesn't want to upset his equilibrium goes on to be the biggest psychedelics investor in the world, which is all about...

Well but I think that was a very good ground because what happened is so I had a discussion or a dinner... it was not a discussion, it was like a dinner discussion like we were somebody set us next to each other with funnily the joke and said, "Oh you..."

The guy was a very or is a very famous drug researcher, like he's the David Nutt of Germany—a drug advisor to the government, a neuroscientist. And somebody said, "Oh you two should sit next to each other because maybe you can loosen Christian up a bit and he could drink a little bit of alcohol." So this is how I met Reiner, his name.

Serendipity again.

Exactly. No but like exactly. Again by the way everybody else would have said I remember that I was like oh my god that's awesome. Like and everybody else would have said well I again in every single thing happening I see it's good for me. So anyway so we had this discussion and the short version is he was like look everything you think is bad is bad. Alcohol. Exactly.

He actually showed me these and whoever is watching I maybe I don't know if you can put it into the... there's this very famous but it's so to the point. David Nutt in the UK wrote a whole book about the misperception of drugs, but this one like he had this one chart which David Nutt made and Reiner pulled it off in the internet where you can see sort of the harm of each drug in the... yeah so how much harm there was this harm scale.

And practically on number one is alcohol. Because in a holistic approach, alcohol is the worst. And then closely followed by heroin. Which by the way the media used a little bit against David Nutt, which was highly unfair because the headline I remember I think in the Sun or whatever was like, "Oh guy says heroin is better than alcohol." No, the thing is like they both very, very bad, like but alcohol is as well. We have this...

And this is the chart that says the harm to you and the harm to others?

Both, it's in one in one chart. Yeah so a chart that shows the harm that these different drugs have on you and others, and alcohol is the worst. Exactly. Alcohol is the worst, but closely followed by heroin and closely followed by crystal meth or whatever. Everything is bad. And I really like if there is one positive outcome of people watching that: don't do it. But don't do alcohol, don't do heroin, don't do crystal meth, don't do nothing. No, there is no...

By the way, and I'm the most again pragmatic person because what I was talking with him was like is there any drug, there could be a drug where you say oh it has a little bit of downside but it has enormous upside. And then you can think for yourself—again you are responsible, I don't think the government should be responsible—to think for myself: is there any upside of me taking this risk?

Because if I go in a car, I came to you in a car, so I took a risk of dying, meaning very low but there was a risk, but it was worth it to sit with Steven and do this podcast. Like no, but everything we do in life, people should look at it is like risk-return. Yeah so maybe somebody says oh if I smoke a joint once in a while it makes me so relaxed, anyway, but you should be aware of the risks. And I think people aren't, especially not with alcohol.

And if you then still decide actively I'm gonna enjoy my glass of wine then I think it's great, but you should know it. Anyway, so but at the end of that scale it said practically what the very end is mushrooms, magic mushrooms. And before the very end like the second sort of easiest or second lowest risk is LSD. Practically the psychedelic group of drugs.

And he was like, "Christian like I can't tell you what my host told me to tell you that you should try alcohol, don't. Meaning I can also tell you not gonna die but like don't do it. Yeah, but you should do actually magic mushrooms." And I was like, "Look you're clearly insane. Like I have never drunk alcohol and I'm not gonna touch an illegal drug."

And he was very, very persuasive. Because he was like look, first of all you do biotech, you started your career in biotech, like I send you—I send you all the research I did or I do. But also which was very cool hindsight, I didn't even value it back then, he was like, "I did my PhD with famous Hoffman who invented LSD."

So Reiner was really plugged into like the old guard of psychedelic luminaries. And he was like, "I send you all what he did, like read it. Because there were all these studies, it's not like an crazy idea." Meaning again actually magic mushrooms or the ingredient psilocybin was used as an approved medical drug in the 50s by Sandoz, actually very at least in Germany famous brand for depression. He was like, "Look it was medical, it has no risk as you can see, I tell you I send you all the studies, at least read it."

And again I'm very curious, I was like, "Well, send me, I'm..." So that was actually again serendipity and so... and now comes the biggest serendipity. Because like for one year I was just like not meaning it's not that I had it on my mind every day, I was just it was there like I read a little bit here...

And by the way, again, I know a lot there is even a book about that by which says what some people believe is destiny is just like if you aware of a theme, yeah it's a little bit like when I tell you don't think of the blue elephant or the white whatever you think of it. Like so there is this one book I can't remember the name, which again would be fine for me like because again it works, was like if you are aware of a thing, of a theme, then it pops up everywhere. You'll see it, yeah.

So over a year there were not a lot because it was completely not in the public domain, but there were once here and there I was like okay read something whatever. And then more or less exactly one year later, I was with my best friends who actually have a stake in ATAI, so they are happy, with my best friends in the Caribbean.

So disclaimer it was a place where it's legal, and they had magic mushrooms. And they had it like it looked like mushrooms, this was good because I'm so hypochondriac and frightened of everything, so I would never have taken anything which didn't look like mushrooms. But these were dried mushrooms, like so I was like okay that looks real. Like and they were and I trust them, they are my best friends. Yeah so big shout out to Landon and Julian.

Yeah so I trust them anyway, they were like look we grew it ourselves, so like safe, we know what we doing, yeah. And I was like actually calling Reiner. The guy you'd met in Germany? Yes, so I'm not mentioning his last name because I don't know if he if he maybe he works still in a very famous job. And I was... he was actually saying the sentence, "Look, as your doctor friend, do it. It's the best place, best people, you know it's real, set and setting and all that. Everything is perfect, do it."

So I took all my courage I had... I was really like and it sounds now I can't say how nervous I was in sort of both anxious and positive, like it was really not maybe people say oh he's talking about magic mushrooms all the time must have been an easy decision, it was not. For days. And I was like okay let's do it.

I still know exactly the point on the beach, yeah because we're going there every Easter, and somewhat I'm going to put the big magic mushroom statue here. I really will, I really will. I know the guys who own the island so I yeah they already know of it. Actually the guy who owns the island is now a shareholder in ATAI as well so everybody is literally everybody.

So I did it and it was the single most meaningful thing full stop. And by the way confirmed everything I just said. So because what a lot of people report is that that you it's a very spiritual experience. And in that case it was not just a spiritual experience, but it really confirmed 100% my view in life.

Which is by the way interesting because if we look now at people because a lot of people ask me especially successful people, they are like, "Oh I've read somebody takes it and then he's want to be a farmer in Brazil." By the way which was my biggest fear. My biggest fear was like I'm gonna come out of that and I'm gonna change my whole life because I realized that I don't know I want to do something else.

Hindsight I tell everybody that look at me and look at others, we have both. We have people like me who come out are very even more happy, but it for me it was a very big confirmation of what I'm doing, yeah. Because yeah I don't know because like it was a confirmation like okay you see the world in the right way, everything what you do how you do you can work on it, so I got a lot of ideas how to make it better, but like sort of the message was you're on the right path.

So some other people come out and the message is look you have to do something completely else. What is why is it different? It's actually the same. What it does, I think one sort of how you say one description of psychedelics is in general they you realize or you you recognize yourself and all your sort of positive and all your dreams, all your trauma, and everybody has a bit of trauma doesn't have to be a real... so everything.

And then and some people and then I was always hindsight I can say now I was right, like I or I was right I I was good in it, I was always living a very honest life to myself. Again doesn't mean that I say hey I decided for example not to tell anybody I'm gay, but that's not from my point of view this was not a lie because it's my decision. But it was not a lie to myself. Yeah it was an active decision to just make my life a little bit... you weren't suppressing it? It was not suppressing it, I was just like pragmatically, yeah by the way this was also very simple there was also nobody to date.

I was very simple like no no exactly risk-return, there was no upside because there was nobody who would have appreciated that, yeah. And look if there would have been a hot guy and I was like he's gay I'm gay it was like hey immediately, like but there was no upside, but a lot of downside.

Anyway, but what I'm saying is like I always lived a very honest life to myself. Yeah, again this doesn't mean you have to shout everything out. And this was confirmed. So other people who don't live an honest life to themselves and lie to themselves and maybe tell themselves that they are happy with XYZ, they might realize on a magic mushroom trip that they not, like they need to and this is the other people who change, yeah but so it's very dependent on...

Yeah anyway but it was just one aspect of so many positive aspects and then sort of I immediately after the trip had sort of the idea, "Okay this should be actually legal." I was actually not even the first impetus was not that I should make a company because I was very sure people must work on that stuff because this is so powerful. And when I then found out, actually it took me two years I was looking around like that there was none, then we did it ourselves.

Just to go back to that point though, you you categorize that moment your first trip as the single most meaningful experience of your life.

Yeah, to date. Full stop. Nothing comes close. And maybe I would add plus the follow on trips over the last years. So it's not just this one trip I would say as well, but I would I would I would summarize my psychedelic experience, and I still like try to do a trip once or twice a year in a country where it's legal, yeah I would summarize as the most meaningful sort of holistic experience I've had in my life. Full yeah for sure.

This is a message from sponsor Intuit TurboTax. You've sent so many emails to your tax pro and nothing. It feels like you're chasing updates. But now your taxes are done for you by a TurboTax expert, so you actually know what's happening. You can match with an expert and just hand off all your tax stuff to them right in the app. So instead of guessing, you can feel confident your TurboTax expert's on it. Now this is taxes. Intuit TurboTax. Visit turbotax.com to learn more. Only available with TurboTax experts. Real-time updates only in iOS mobile app.

When your cat is acting weirder, or your dog is being louder, your turtle moves slower. Hello, Ted? Your cat seems thirstier. Whoa, slow down buddy. Or your puppy is acting clumsier. Day or night, if you don't know what's wrong, know where to go. Veg ER for Pets. This is Kate. Veg, the better, kinder ER for pets.

You do this trip on the beach with your friends. You think to yourself, "You know this must be legal." Fast forward, you get a call from one of your friends called Mike.

No, it's way crazier, it's way crazier. Again super serendipity. So fast forward for two years I was very, very carefully looking around and actually not telling a lot of people about it, which was wrong. And if I would have gone on like that, I wouldn't sit here. Meaning at least not now I wouldn't sit here maybe, maybe but like not talking about mushrooms or psychedelics.

So for two years I was kind of extremely holding back, so I told my closest friends. Actually the ones who knew me very well saw that positive—like my parents were like, "Hey something happened in your holiday." Yeah and I was like hmm, yeah. So the ones who knew me well, but like I didn't shout it out and I was actually very, very careful and shy because it's like technically stigma.

Yeah and back then the by the way let's not forget like we're talking about it also now so easily because all the books came out, we have this success like Compass is listed, like now is completely different than... So anyway so for two years I was very like low key, yeah.

And then I had before and again this is like maybe the biggest financial serendipity or serendipity message of the universe if you want to see it like that because for two years I was sort of like just telling friends very close friends. And then I had one other trip within a holiday trip. The main message on that trip was: "Christian this makes you so happy, you have to talk to other people about it, don't be shy, just good thing will come out things will come out if you talk about it."

So I had a real mission. So I got this real mission on that trip to sort of be open about it. And then actually from that holiday I was flying literally the week after I met a very close friend and business partner of mine, Mike Novogratz, who's big in finance. Huge. Yeah so but he's not the guy who would talk about mushrooms normally. And I wouldn't have had, but he was my test case because I had the mission.

The mission was don't be afraid, talk about magic mushrooms because it's going to be good for you and the world. So I met Mike and he literally Mike is always like that, "What's up?" because I think I do cool stuff like from space and other stuff so a lot of friends always like, "Hey what's new, what's up, what you investing in?"

I was like, "Mike, you won't believe it, I just had a mushroom trip and this was amazing and I want to talk to tell you about it." And he was like that "Whoa, mushroom. Like I..." I remember Mike said the sentence like he hasn't talked about it hadn't back then for like 20 years, because especially in the US for a lot of people it's like a college thing like party drug. Yeah and he was like, "Look I 20 years never heard about it again since college."

So I told him all of my experience on that trip, and in general on mushrooms. So and he was like very interested, yeah. And so the next day, literally the next day, my phone rings, Mike is on it and actually he said it, yeah he said, "Look Christian this is the weirdest coincidence. So since 20 years or I haven't talked about psychedelics for 20 years, yesterday you're in my office talking about nothing else than psychedelics. And this morning my sister called him."

Said his sister called him and she's on Bali with these crazy couple from London who told her they want to start a company which is working on bringing magic mushrooms back in the legal realm and they need somebody who's financing them and nobody wants to touch it. And I was like, "This is this is such a coincidence." You're in London, they in London, like yeah and these are George and Katya, the founders of Compass.

Yeah and I was like, "Connect me immediately." And I remember this was January and then we met when I was back and they were back from Bali in February 2017. Yeah and I they tell when we talk about it like within the meeting I was like, "Okay we gonna we gonna do that together, that's that's what I've waited for since two years."

And again if I hadn't taken the decision to openly talk about it, I would have not told Mike, I would have not met George and Katya, we wouldn't sit here, at least not sit here talk about this one.

And the magic mushrooms were the thing that told you to talk about it?

Exactly, that trip. And you end up being you know the single biggest investor in the space. A space which is now really sort of main becoming more mainstream at an alarming rate at a sort of a category that's exploded from a financial perspective. And you you've co-founded and invested in two the two biggest sort of companies in this area, ATAI and Compass Pathways.

Exactly, so practically I co-founded both. In Compass I was more the seed investor because it was George's and Katya's idea and I added actually a very close friend of mine Lars as the third co-founder and I was the seed investor but sort of I was there even before the company existed, we were sitting in my in my living room and planning it.

And then when I realized how positive or it was actually easier is the wrong word, but it was sort of I had I had expected more hurdles, yeah and it's maybe sadly actually the time which is helping us because there are so many people suffering and it becomes sort of also financially. Sometimes life is very the world functions very pragmatic like in the moment something becomes a big crisis also financially, the regulators, it creates opportunity.

Whatever it was it was the right time, so Compass quickly actually got FDA fast track designation, which was a big thing, stuff like that. So and then I actually realized oh there are more psychedelics out there than meaning everybody is always almost using magic mushrooms and psychedelics as the same but like we have the headline psychedelics, a group of drugs and psilocybin, the active ingredient in magic mushrooms, is one of them.

So there are more of them from MDMA to LSD, ketamine, ibogaine whatever. And and Compass wanted always to focus on on psilocybin, so I was like okay then I'm starting ATAI as sort of a platform where we actually bring on more more of these compounds to explore them for mental health issues.

Of all the compounds in ATAI, and I know there's a lot of them right? I think you've got over 13 compounds, different psychedelic compounds within ATAI. We've talked a lot about magic mushrooms and that the active compound in magic mushrooms for anybody that doesn't know is psilocybin, which is what Compass Pathways does. Of all the others, and I know this is like I've heard you say before this is like choosing your favorite child, which one of the psychedelic compounds is incredibly compelling to you and really stands out is being able to have a really significant impact?

That's really hard to say, I really mean it because like it really meaning because they all all compounds we work on have a sort of reason to exist or positive like have a have a place in treating mental health issues, hopefully.

Tell me about ibogaine then.

Yeah so and then now the question is what is your what does somebody sees as the biggest problems? Or name me the problem you think is the worst and then I tell you sort of which drug is the best like kind of so so I think ibogaine is this is interesting because also because ibogaine goes against addiction and there is actually almost nothing else which works for addiction.

So addiction and severe we talk about here severe addiction like especially to opioids and heroin is sort of I don't know if you can say it on English podcast, really fucked up. Like it's like that's one of the really severe mental stuff like where most people have a how call it like relapse. Yeah and then it's also one of these sort of things if you look at families and friends where somebody is addicted sort of it's very like it's like cancer in in in the social environment.

So it's it's it's but in by the way I would even say any mental health is like it's always affecting others as well but I think addiction sort of stands out in a certain way. And ibogaine is the only drug we know which potentially—I always have to say with all these drugs potentially because we are about to prove it once and for all with scientific terms or with scientific framework, FDA sort of compliant—but ibogaine has the potential to really cure addiction with one trip, yeah and that will be a massive game changer for the whole opioid crisis but even alcohol addiction. It's not just opioids.

You know you're trying to you're trying to make people's lives better right? You're trying to get them it almost seems like you know because you've you've been gifted enough to be happy your whole life you you are doing a lot to make sure other people can be happy on one end.

But the other thing that you're doing which also kind of blew my mind when I met you is trying to extend life. You know you've got Elon who's trying to save life on Earth but also take us to a new one and it seems like you know Atai, your investment company, is trying to make the life we live more joyous and fulfilled but also trying to extend it. And the work you're doing with life longevity, I actually find maybe even more bonkers. Like when I first heard about psychedelics I was like, "Really?" and then I spent six months, nine months learning and I was like, "Oh my god like I get it." But life longevity for me is like, "Really? We can we can really extend our lives?" And you you've got companies which are working on that challenge. So tell me about life longevity, is it possible?

I well okay let's so let's phrase it correctly like because even I if I want to sort of say something very poke, I'm like "Oh we gonna live forever." That's not gonna happen for an accident reason. Meaning yes you could say maybe we live forever if we really upload our brain to our computer but then not that I think that's completely impossible but I think then we not human anymore.

That's a different discussion. Like so but I would say as long as we stay fairly human, meaning having a body, having sort of the human setup we have, yeah there will always be an end. Let's start there because the worst case if you live hundreds of years you're gonna have an accident somewhere somebody blows you up you have a by the way it's gonna be it's a a side note I think it's gonna change once we get older and older it's gonna change the way how we look at risk.

Because I already start avoiding crazy stuff because I'm like it's not worth it, again risk-return. Like I have this one colleague I always try to convince he's 50 and he drives a motorbike and I'm like, "You shouldn't do it." Like the sort of statistical risk is so big of driving a motorbike.

And his answer is, "Well because he's still thinking his life expectancy of 70, he's like well but I'm exchanging 20 years if it happens against my biggest passion and this is a trade-off worth it." And I was like, "Well A I think it's already stupid, but if you if it's okay if this is your opinion, 20 years against the risk of losing it. But I tell you like it's not 20 you already if you're 50 I'm gonna get you up or we gonna get you up with longevity science to maybe 90 or 100, by the way in a good way, so would you exchange 50?"

And then suddenly you see okay then he starts thinking. Because so and now think it a little bit further like if you say hey our natural life experience someone will be 200, maybe we stop doing stuff we doing now because it could sort of yeah. But back to your question, like longevity never means immortality because again as long as we stay kind of human because there is an accident risk, yeah.

By the way I also believe spiritually again that we don't want to live forever. I think part of being human, again as long as we stay that—and we can talk about that as well because it's another thing I'm thinking a lot maybe we don't stay human in our current form. But as long as so I think to part of being human is having an end. Because that makes everything we do worthwhile, yeah. So I just don't want it now like I want to have more of it, but I think the sort of limit that there is a time limit on being human is actually which makes us thrive, yeah and which makes us...

Everything special.

Everything special. So I don't think I'm gonna take that away, I just want to extend the joy, yeah.

Then doesn't it just become relative again? Then so if you live to 150...

But way do so so what I really believe what we get in the next maybe like 30 20 to 30 it's come I think it's gonna come way quicker than people think is that we gonna get life expectancy up to to a time to a to a to a size to a magnitude where we want to die. And I think it's even like this will be a range and some people might already say with 100 I had it all, I had enough birthdays, enough Christmases, and I'm so some people want to maybe live to 300.

But I think we gonna give people that optionality sooner than we think. And then I think dying will be like this is my vision like is a celebration. I would someone say like "Look guys I had it all, I love you, love life, but I really think I'm ready for whatever comes and maybe comes nothing I don't know but like I have an expectation but like yeah but whatever it is I'm gonna finish it now, throw a big party, say goodbye to everybody and then go out on my own terms on my own time." I think that's gonna be sooner than we think.

You whispered there "I have an expectation".

Well I think there is another life. Like I think it's a continuous sort of cycle of experiences, yeah. So and I'm definitely know that somewhere I'm gonna want to go to the next level is the wrong word to the next experience, yeah. But for now I want to actually extend this one.

A lot of people don't get to live and this is what I was thinking is like this this idea that people will get to a point in their life where they say "Do you know what? I've had enough this has been great." I just would do you genuinely believe you'll get to a point where maybe 150 whatever where you think... yeah I think somewhere it's going to happen like maybe it's very late meaning I hope but again I think that this is the ultimate.

Meaning I'm already pissed about the government interfering in my stuff in any way, but the biggest interference is death. It's not my I don't choose the time, I don't choose and we need to change that. So I think the biggest sort of liberty everybody has will be choosing his or her own death.

But you'll always be curious, the world will always be changing. There'll always be something...

Well great, then I go on like a long time. I I'm trying to understand if I believe if I genuinely believe that Christian Angermayer will ever get to a point where he's bored because you're such a curious... that why is it's great if that is the case I really don't know like meaning but I'm just saying I believe like again I think there is a moment everybody will come to that. Maybe it's very, very great, like I'm working on it, like.

And you don't think death is a natural is a especially at that age is a like natural thing? I hear you talk about it as a as a bug or as a disease or something.

Well that that I would say definitely aging is a disease. Something is wrong. So something is I know how the 20-year-old Christian looked and who was and felt. And by the way my DNA is the same like it was when I was born, like it was when I was 20, like it's now.

But something of the same DNA, it's a little bit like we know how the house it's the construction plan of the house is the same, and somehow the sort of minions who who translate the construction plan into the building, yeah, change it. And not to the better from age 20 on. I get grey hair, whatever, like so but we know still it is there. Like the original source of information is there—our DNA.

So we need just to find out it's super simplified what changes the translation of our DNA into mistakes and into what we call aging. That's a very simplified view but it shows you that it's not so natural, yeah. Because it's not that your DNA is if it would be natural maybe your DNA would change, we would say we can't change that. But it's not. Like your DNA is the same till you die. Like so we just need to make sure that the translation happens like when you were 20.

So by the way I deeply believe not just that we can slow down and stop aging, we can reverse it. Because again I know how Steven, meaning you are still obviously at your prime, yeah, but I know how Christian in his prime looked like and I you're still in your prime. Yeah and we can bring it back.

So some some animals live for a couple of days though. So I I look I take like an evolutionary perspective on this and think like you know there's some like flies that live like four days but it's enough time for...

But maybe we are there at the moment to escape the evolutionary velocity. Maybe that's the pinnacle where we sort of start becoming and I know because I don't mean it like in a blasphemic way, I think we meant to be like gods in our own way, yeah. And we start now to go to the sort of source and construction of life ourselves.

And I think that's an enormously curious thing and like yeah maybe that's what we meant to be. I'm rather on the positive side that this is not blasphemy or whatever, but this is like what God set us up for so to say.

By the way, every single religion—it's a very fun nobody ever I don't think... I love by the way—and you know we can't say today—that there is a big thing coming out about religion and and science of religion, but I always love that. I'm always was funnily drawn to the mystical side and the religious side and aside of what we discussed on let's what I call spiritual side I was always, always very interested in the history of religions.

And interestingly A one sad actually happy and sad observation is that in the very core all religions are the same, they all preach the same good stuff. Be nice, be nice to others, and then once they become an organization the shit starts, yeah. So and and also one what most religions have—just going through but—yeah literally most religions have the big ones is that they at the very beginning say that we are a part and a mirror or image—what's the English term?—that we are an image of God.

And we don't talk about it because now everybody is like oh if you if you want to live forever, well a lot of people like again if you want to defy aging and data a lot of people say oh you want to play God, yeah. This is sort of the then the rebuttal. And I was like but maybe that's what we meant to be because if I go to the Bible it says we are the image of God. So maybe we are meant to play God because that's what we are. In a in a philosophical way. So I don't think it's not ethically at all, I think it's the ultimate actually challenge we have to solve, yeah.

The other rebuttal I I thought the first time I heard about the possibility of extending life was that you know we'd have a really aging population where we'd all be so it's interesting you talk about reversing aging but we'd all be 170 and slightly like you know slow and not productive.

It doesn't make it doesn't make medically or sense we won't be 150 and super old. It doesn't make sense. You can't extend lifespan that much without rejuvenation. It comes at the thanks god and nobody wants to be like because by the way that's what most people fear though why they it's interesting how many people reject the idea of living very long but one of the very banal reason is that they automatically think okay if Christian would succeed in making us live till 150 they take okay I know a 90-year-old granny from of mine and she's not in good shape and now they add another 60 years and they're like no that's not what I want, yeah.

But that's exactly but that's not what's going to happen. In the moment we can push life expectancy way further than 90 it it goes hand in hand with rejuvenation. And then more people want it.

And what time frame do you expect?

I think we gonna see step really, really tangible steps forward the next 20 years, yeah and then let's say 20 to 40 latest. By the way which is not that far, yeah and and also the this gonna change society. Meaning everything and interestingly every politician I talk to thinks like well that's far away and I was like no it's not it's not that so far away than you think and like it's gonna affect us sooner and we need to talk about it about about social systems, about anything, yeah this gonna be one of the massive black but I would not in a negative way by the way I think it's gonna be good but I'm an eternal optimist like but in a it will be a massive change for the world.

By the way let me drink this delicious drink.

What's it called? Sure they put like in a commercial in the we should like leave that in.

It's like hopefully it's better Huel? Huel yeah. Human fuel. Human fuel. Okay it's a very good name. Who came up with that name? Julian Hearn. Oh great.

Um so switching because in fact the the topics the topics of conversation we've discussed are super interesting. But personally the things that I find most fascinating about you are your just like ridiculous, ridiculous work ethic. And I've talked to some of your friends I spoke to Aaron, I spoke to people around you just to confirm what I thought.

And the intensity and the amount you work I think is just like staggering. I think I'm really hardworking. I've seen you in action around the clock over the weekend, the fact that we're doing this on a Saturday, I don't normally record the podcast on Saturday.

Well it's a hobby. It's like having fun, it's not like work. But okay I know it.

My point is about you know in culture people talk about this term work-life balance and I think you've kind of responded to it there.

Very easy there shouldn't be a work-life balance, there should just be one continuous hobby. That's my view on it. People should love what they do in a way obviously you do different things and I love more things. So but like there I always said since I'm 16 or actually 14 since I have my tutoring if I would call it work-life balance then I have a shitty life.

Because it's just work. But my work is my life and I love it and it's integrated and most of my friends I work with and like even like friends who didn't this is how I came to the movie business because just like I had friends who were actors and were in the movie business and then I was like maybe we should work together maybe should finance a movie like it's like yeah I don't want to see it as a separation.

Let's talk about more personal things, so relationships. How does someone who works as hard as you find any... I'm I'm presuming you value what relationships can bring you?

Well complicated topic. It's work in progress. Welcome to the podcast. The Diary of a CEO. Oh no. Now it's like no that that's work in progress. So that's like because obviously like I'm so much in love with my work that that it's always it's hard I think for another person although I think I can try to be very uplifting because I would try and say the same what I told you is like I would tell every partner like you have to find you can't expect from me to get give you meaning, you need to give yourself meaning and then we can be happy together.

Yeah but this is unfortunately not how a lot of people work so it's very easy that sort of I have a quote on Instagram my best performing quote ever it says um "If we're dating I want to be your second priority, I want your first priority to be you, your passions, your future. If we're happy alone we'll be happy together."

Yeah that's exactly what I mean. I'm happy alone by the way. I'm also like an introvert extrovert so people think I'm very extrovert and I can be and I want to be like I like to host parties and dinners and do things like that, but then I want to be alone actually a lot.

Do you value and tell me the value of a relationship in your view? Of like a really good committed relationship. Do you value it?

That's a complicated question so because if I say no it sounds brutal and it and I don't mean it. Like I I think it's more the answer is more complicated. So I built myself that I that I'm sort of very like independently so so I value relationships a lot. So that's the real answer but I'm not in the concept that one should stand out.

So I rather have groups so I I believe that or believe like I do have like ten but not one like ten very, very close friends, who most of them I have since very long time. I actually extremely value relations, but I'm not saying okay there is this one relation in my life which will completely stand out from the rest. Which is maybe a a complicated thing for relationships. I do think though this will change once you get children. Yeah so which I want so that's sort of the yeah and by the way I also do think people change.

Like and I don't think the core of you changes and the core but like you can make adjustments. So I know for example that when I want children or once I have children that I have to make adjustments because I just want children if they have the same happy childhood than I had. So I want to be either no dad or a great dad. Yeah so and then I know I need to make adjustments so but then it's worth it and then it's my active decision to take it.

How is it you are the busiest person I know. I was just thinking then I was thinking is this the busiest person I know? You probably you're the busiest person I know I'd say. Have you struggled to have romantic relationships because of that busyness? I feel like in a like interrogation on curt court. What did you think was going to happen here? Yes this is what it's this is what it's come this is what it's these are the things no one talks about right?

And I sit here single, struggling. So I'm like I'll ask Christian because he's way busier and I'm struggling so is there any hope for Steve?

Yeah totally like there's hope for all of us, be positive. It's funny it's funny this feels like a bit more of an uncomfortable topic for you for some reason. No it's just very private. It's not uncomfortable, I would tell you my my views in private easier like yeah. Because there's 100,000 people watching. Exactly. 100,000 people I'm gonna now it's getting really like cringey. No it it is definitely a problem. Full stop. Like yeah.

And you realize that you're going to have to adjust at some point if you want to if you value...

If I yeah if I want to and if I value yeah and then you always say like okay you do that the the issue is like what I think a lot how do you know when to adjust. Like in terms of because you would say romantically you would say you adjust when the right one comes, how do you know that the right one comes if you don't have time to figure out the right one? There is this a little bit and I haven't figured that fully out.

You're someone looking at the past 40 years of your life that does whatever he wants to do and isn't actually very good at adjusting unwillingly. You've never been good in your life story at doing something unwillingly, whether it's the hospital work. Exactly. No, it's always exactly. You go the way Christian wants to go. And I I just wonder like when what will be the catalyst you said kids maybe there but what will be the catalyst that makes Christian adjust?

But maybe it's a romantic thing you really like love at first sight. I mean again the good thing is that I deeply believe that makes me very calm in that, coming back to what we had, this I deeply believe it's gonna come at the right time.

And I know that I'm sort of enough open for it because it's the same like with business ideas or the same with other stuff in my life. Again if you open open heart open mind you're gonna see it when it comes. So it's not it's a little bit like with anything else I said like you don't have negative thoughts. Don't think oh I need it now like yeah so it comes when it comes.

Like because everything in my life came at the right time. Why not this one? So I'm very that's how I see it. And by the way if in the moment things came I can just say now business stuff but like I again business is my life like when psychedelics came and then the business meaning that's sort of very a big part of my time allocation over the last like four five years was in the into the psychedelic business. I made space for it. Yeah so I'm always like it's not again when things comes you realize the you realize the message and then you make space for it.

But there's a chance you said that you might be obstructing it from coming and happening because you're so preoccupied with...

No I I'm thinking about that but then my conclusion is then usually that or because again like because romance is maybe but it's not maybe it's maybe not like finding a good company. Maybe that sounds now very um very non-romantic but I don't mean it romantically because I also think finding company is very romantic or very very emotional. Yeah because if I look for example at the psychedelic business.

I think that but I do actively again it's not that I'm ignoring it's what I said before my my philosophy of not having negative thoughts doesn't mean that you cannot analyze sort of stuff and sort of look on the risky side. So I do think about it is my life how I lead it maybe preventing to have sort of the one and only romantic experience yeah my conclusion is then mostly that I'm like okay no because like it will come at the right time and then you're gonna realize it and then you're gonna make space like I made space for everything else.

It's so funny because because you're such an eternal optimist I almost can't get you to...

But that's how it work. Bad things happen to me as well. Bad things are there but my mind twists it around or twists like this what I'm really training since I'm 14 since I bought the book in Munich like every throw a to me a throw a to me a negative thing and I'm I'm maybe a little bit puzzled for a second or for example yeah even if things even if things in our portfolio don't go well I'm like a little bit like shaken for a moment and then I'm like where's the good thing and how can I turn that in my mind how can I see the upside yeah.

It's fascinating. Because yeah I'm trying to get you to you know the reason why I started this podcast is because sometimes I want to highlight that for all the great things people see that you know there'll be people watching you thinking "I would want to be have all these companies and manage two billion of assets and all these things," but there's always a there's always a some kind of down not downside but sacrifice we could say that's happening. And I'm trying to get at where that sacrifice is. And the the problem is you are happy.

So and you're pursuing yourself, so it's hard to identify a sacrifice when you're that optimist.

No no exactly and I know what you mean I just try also as a message not to see it like I think people shouldn't see it because that's the negative story about success. The negative story of about success is that people see people and say "Oh I want to be like them," yeah "I would like to have the wealth, I would like to have XYZ," then they can't immediately have it because by the way it's a long process and you need to work harder.

But and then they tell themselves oh they must have gone through a lot of sacrifice. Yeah and then this is a little bit what calms them down oh they they have a lot of bad stuff like coming with that. I think that's wrong way to look at for both sides. Like I think the right way to look at it should like do I really want that is this really what makes me happy? Yeah and then it's by the way not that easy to meaning everybody would say like ah yeah being this like simplified money makes me happy but then again do you makes it happy what comes with it?

But I don't want to call it a sacrifice because I wouldn't do it if I would have to sacrifice stuff in order to get money because it's not about money anyway by the way money from a certain moment on is not really the driving force. There is there is there is an meaning there is great research it's not my it's like that from practically zero to X money gives you happiness because it makes your life easier so but then somewhere you're not going to spend it because somewhere it becomes a figure yeah and then it's about do you love what you do yeah.

So latest then yeah but like so I don't people should see not this you can't see I don't know wealth or anything separated from the the process how you got there yeah and then it's not about saying oh the process was hard and sacrifice it's like is the whole process what I love doing? Then you should throw you throw you in it or is it something else what I love and then you should not though envy other people because that makes you miserable as well. You should always embrace what the problem is people often don't know what they really want.

Yeah and that again psychedelics give you like but like in the moment you embrace what you really want and maybe like like a housewife maybe really loves it it's not something where she should say oh I'm just a housewife and somebody else is a big entrepreneur maybe that's what she really wants in this life she maybe wants to have children take care of them and take care of him in exactly the way but it's about knowing that actively not letting other people put you in that position or let circumstances put you in that position but like actively knowing yourself is that what makes you happy.

Yeah I've written about this at length in the book—this idea that um but obviously the huge force in our lives at the moment which tries to whisper in our ears that we want to be something else is like social media and society. They'll say "You gotta be a doctor, your mum might say," or Instagram will say "You've got to be a billionaire," and really you just want to be an artist that dances in Croatia. You know what I mean?

Exactly. Embrace it. But again you need to know it like. By the way I think as much as I love tech that's one of the other topics which which really like sort of keep me awake at yeah but keep me awake at night is something in the world we live in or actually say something in the world we are building.

Because we reconstructing the world in any form and people I think have no no real glimpse yet how crazy this will be yeah we going now people think we're we were in like a 20 year of tech boom which is true on the one side but if we really honest and there is this famous quote which I love to use from Peter Thiel who said, "We wanted flying cars and we got 140 characters on Twitter," yeah which says practically if you look at the last 20 years, yes we had a tech boom but more or less I'm simplifying yeah.

The what changed is the distribution of goods—Amazon. Now we not shopping anymore we getting it delivered but it's still the same goods. Yeah um and social media it changed communication. Everything changed but we didn't go to the fabric of the society industry and ourselves.

So now we starting going to reformulate and re-change the fabric of ourselves. Longevity. We gonna really make not just 5 years again maybe we live 150 which change everything which change and this is all interdependent then in the moment we change the fabric of our body or then we change the fabric of society because society is very much linked to an 80-year life expectancy.

Yeah flying cars are now really coming literally we have flying cars now soon yeah we gonna go to Mars somewhat and it's gonna happen maybe 20 maybe it's gonna happen so the world is gonna change like we have never seen it before. So and I love it yeah and you love it yeah and maybe even the people who watch that love it because otherwise they maybe wouldn't watch it but like the majority of people doesn't.

Yeah so and I think that's one of the underlying reasons which makes the society more and more depressive or mental health because like I think there is this enormous fear um and people often have like I think gut it's a another word for gut feeling like you have you can't really explain it what makes you nervous but it makes you nervous and I think that's what's happening.

So I think the sort of the world as a whole except of some eternal optimists and some techies yeah are like "Yeah maybe I like a single piece, I like my iPhone, I like the..." but as an entirety that makes me deeply uncomfortable. The race of change around you? Exactly yeah so and again even if they don't know it, the bus driver maybe can't fully explain how a self-driving bus will work but somewhere he feels that in 10 years it's not gonna be his job anymore.

Yeah and I think that creates a lot of risk because the last time that happened that was when we changed from the agricultural society to the to the industrial society. Yeah and you can say now we change from the industrial society to let's call it data society we need a word for it but we changing and changing in a massive way.

So and then it so there are a lot of parallels of the time between 1875 and 1920. The people were there was this elite technically who said everything is possible. You had the it was I think it was an 1870 but I don't know in some when the Eiffel Tower was built there was this uh what is it called World Exhibition and people were like "Oh my god," meaning there was Jules Verne when it was also around the time and hopefully I spell him right in English like he wrote all these books yeah like the sci-fi books yeah so the world was already there once.

Unfortunately we had then two world wars. Yeah and you can look at a lot of reasons why world war one and two happened and there is a lot of different layers of of reason but I believe that the main reason is this sort of disenfranchisement of the agricultural society who were deeply panicky like what's happening to the world because the world the farmer yeah in the 19th century knew was disappearing in in front of his eyes yeah and it's exactly happening the same again.

Could there could there not be a another reason linked to that why people are becoming depressed in the technological evolution? Because you know at the start of this podcast you said about the importance of nature and I've read studies about you know prisoners who face who face nature versus a brick wall are 30% less likely to be depressed and the the sort of very human prehistoric origin of the human being is one that's in nature, it's one that's in a tribe, it has meaningful connections.

And the technological revolution is really you know I now live between four white walls alone in a big grey city. Could that also not be part of the reason why people are we're getting less human than ever. And in fact I what I like about you know when I read about some of the social reasons why people are getting more depressed it's because we're getting further and further away from being human. This is maybe a little bit more philosophical but like if you look like the things that help with mental health, typically it's it's meaningful connection, it's nature, it's good diet no more junk. And these are all things that humans did 10,000 years ago. It's like we have to go back to find ourselves again.

Or we have to find our human place in a world which is changing. So yes so I I do I do think a lot how can we stay human in a world which is changing that crazyly as it does. Which wants robots, it's like the this world now would appreciate if I was a robot more productive.

No no I think we can adjust. And by the way and I'm saying that with all the disclaimers it's not legal right now and I'm always coming back to that but I do think somewhere psychedelics will be will be the medication for that. Because it keeps us in a certain way very human but at the same time makes us very adaptive on our environment.

So that's so I give you it's more or less the same what you said so how I see what do humans need to be happy. I think it's three things: it's some form of faith, and I explain it in a second, so it's faith, it's purpose, and it's love. It's super cheesy what I'm saying now but like these are the three things which I think make us as a as a the combination of these three things make make us happy.

Then I think let's go through it: the faith means any form of higher meaning. Or the other way around I think being atheist or believing literally in a materialistic world where if you die you're dead and then you rot yeah makes people very unhappy. This is not a again meaning I made I think the case that I believe in in more but like let's it's not even a case it's just like saying like factually I think people need that.

We need this why every society ever developed a religion like I think we need it why because we terrorized of dying. We don't admit it. I admit it I don't want to age, aging sucks. Dying sucks and even worse by the way dying of people I love sucks. So and we don't talk about it we completely push that away from us yeah. And I believe religion always gave people that sort of calmness or a little bit of a calmness that as death is not the end you're gonna see people again people you love whatever so and I think it's important because otherwise you have this permanent terror of death in your head and you might not admit it but you have.

Second point is purpose what I said with a bus driver—people need a purpose yeah and they need to know why they wake up in the morning and and um and what they doing. So having said that um in front of our very eyes at the moment like the these things are dissolving the the purpose is so we need to find new ones. And the most important is we need love. And in a cheesy way must not be a one-on-one relationship but it could could be one-on-one relationship could be a family could be a close friends could be a community.

Yeah so love on various levels. So and for actually bad thing is if you look at where the world is going at the moment, all these three things are dissolved. So faith is on a super decline yeah. Um then purpose is on a decline because we changing the world and most people don't find their purpose immediately there. And then unfortunately also communities are on decline. Traditional family structures but also communities meaning if I remember if I grew up I had like what do you call it in English when you go to like a theatre group and I had 10 groups like it was all amazing it was was the sort of pinnacle of a community we were so and it was great yeah and I don't think if you have that anymore in that way or at least this sort of vanishing.

Yeah it's statistically accurate, there's a study in the US which says um 15 years ago people would respond to the question how many people can you turn to in time of crisis, the median answer was 3, it's now zero in America.

Crazy. Like I had 10 when I was young. And psychedelics are giving you that, all of that. They giving you faith, spirituality, they giving you purpose because you you you realize that the purpose lies within you and you can reinvent yourself. And they giving you love because you realize the value of connections whatever.

I read tons of thing and this is a bit of a sideway but I read... it's really great I love it! What is great? I love it like he's talking about the Huel he's drinking, it's good! I'll send you a big box of it there's different flavors this one's berry so we'll send you this flavor as well. But it's also really good for you, it's the reason I'm in the best shape of my life. I read something really interesting which again goes against a couple of narratives I would have expected from you—you said you have 42 pills a day.

Round about. This someone that doesn't want to mess with the equilibrium is having 42 different pills a day? No no no no. It's not it's not a cocaine I'm joking no no no. No no it's like I someone gonna put it online because so many people ask. So I um first of all I think everything we take we eat is an active decision.

So I like so if you remember like before the the podcast I was looking at it because I wanted to know what is in it like and there is seems to be a lot of good stuff in it yeah so I don't I'm not in the camp where some people say oh vitamins or any form of added stuff is bad because I'm like everything I eat is something external going in my body yeah.

So and then my view on aging at the moment is at the moment there is unfortunately we working on it hard yeah but there is nothing which really slows down aging dramatically dramatically or or even reverses it. However there are things which give you a little bit of an edge yeah. And the edge is not big yeah but unfortunately I'm not 20 anymore. If I would be 20 which then I would say hey no then the optionality would be super easy. If I would be 20 now and I tell that my godchildren I don't believe it they 10 I'm like you gonna live for hundreds of years yeah.

So I'm unfortunately fortunately because I'm still have the opportunity and again my decision was like I want to work on it because I think I do it better than others yeah and I'd rather trust myself than waiting then in others doing it seriously like but like I'm like okay but I'm at the borderline like because I need to hurry up so so even if I do something now at the moment which gives me statistically two more years, that's two more years like yeah in a in a race.

Tell me what these things are. Because I'm 20, so I'd like to...

Yes so I think there are some easy things to do like um the for example sleep is super important yeah. Then um... Why is sleep important? For okay we could talk we could you should do you should do a podcast just about sleep. Had a sleep expert on two weeks ago. Yeah oh you had so perfect there are so many reasons but sleep is one of the core things we don't fully understand it yet but like who has practically if you meaning I don't know the exact number but read *Why We Sleep* from Matthew Walker like I think if you if you sleep 2-3 hours less than you should for some days your immune system is collapsing. If your immune system collapsing then your probability of cancer goes up and meaning sleep has so many negative good sleep is so good for you and negative too little sleep has so many negative consequences that so sleep is super important.

So I try to sleep enough. For example I try this is one of the luxury things which I can do because I work for myself that I don't have early morning meetings so and I have always something to do emails whatever but I try that I can wake up naturally so I never wake up with an alarm clock unless I need to fly or whatever yeah. So um so that's one thing, then obviously no alcohol alcohol is a is a is toxic like full stop. Cigarettes, all all drugs except of psychedelics are toxic. Yeah so don't do them.

Yeah you see that by the way when people like yeah I don't want to say now that I aged well but like if I go to a class reunion or whatever like some people who drank very a lot of alcohol and eat shit yeah they look older like yeah it's like so so the same is yeah food like intake be healthy don't carbs like sugar is super bad like I think so so I don't want to go yes I do 42 pills or whatever it is yeah and meaning the list would be long maybe again maybe I put it somewhere online but I think the message is because if people jump from zero to 42 pills they won't do it anyway.

So whoever listens now I would say if you do the 3-4-5 things which sort of it's this 80/20 rules. I'm trying to carve out the last 20% but go for the sort of the easy hard and easy first. Sleep, healthy food, exercise is super important. Mustn't be super hard exercise but like every day like 20-30 minutes of mild to medium exercise. As I said no drugs no alcohol whatever. Um these are the main ones. You're gonna be significantly healthier.

I heard you talk about intermittent fasting?

Yes, oh sorry intermittent fasting is one, yes. So I try not to eat for 16-18 hours a day every day. And once you start doing it you sort of... Why do you do that? Why do you intermittently fast? I've always been curious about it I've never done it. Uh because it's very healthy meaning there are enough a lot of health benefits your your blood sugar level sort of normalizes which has then sort of a lot of follow on effects yeah. It's also you lose weight which is very simple like yeah um...

I um I actually only have one other thing that I want to ask you about. I mean I don't I have a million things but in the interest of time it was about Bitcoin. You've you've been a big investor in Bitcoin and the future of Bitcoin you're bullish?

Super bullish. Because what I think is like the all politicians from left and right from from any part of the spectrum. And by the way I think about it a lot, I think maybe it's not even a stupid decision what they took. But like all politicians decided that money printing is the thing to go yeah so we gonna see this massive devaluation of fiat currencies yeah.

And never before again I really love history and normally this happened to one currency or one country or whatever. At the moment it happened it's it's happening to all the major currencies in the world. Euro, um renminbi like US dollar, everything is sort of devalued at the same time.

So and because everything is relative to each other obviously by the way it's not just Bitcoin but assets go up. This is why I'm on a 10-year horizon I'm extremely bullish on in general quality assets: stocks, Bitcoin, anything which is not cash. I think the most dangerous asset class for 10 years is cash. Doesn't mean by the way there can't be stock market crash whatever in between where you want to have cash to buy, yeah so you should have like how you say in English tactically cash but not like strategically cash.

Um so but Bitcoin and so and Bitcoin is one of these assets first. And then second the world always needs a store of value. So for thousands of years gold is was the store of value of choice meaning think about it how many currencies were there in mean thousands because by the way always politicians mess it up. Always. Like people politicians can't be entrusted with currencies, full stop. It's always a bad idea, yeah always 100%.

And so people always had gold yeah. So but gold is is also people then say oh Bitcoin has no value, gold has no value, you can't eat it. It's actually one of these things that you can't eat it, it's maybe nice to look at, but like it's just a convention, it's just an agreement humanity has. And I would go further, it's embedded in our cultural system. There are so many fairy tales and things about gold.

But if you ask a ten-year-old, for him it's Bitcoin. Bitcoin is his pop culture store of value. And that's exactly like gold. So and I think that shift has happened or is about to happen that Bitcoin is at least additionally to gold and someone will completely make gold redundant, yeah is the new store of value. And it's just you can argue now what's the value of Bitcoin because it's a it's a convention, it's a deal society made that we accept that. That's the value. Yeah there is no nothing more meaning you can add then and say oh maybe Bitcoin is disrupting the financial system but that's all secondary. The main thing is: is it a store of value or not? And for me it is a store of value. Yeah that's sort of the main driver of Bitcoin is the new gold. That's enough by the way to make it still go up dramatically compared to gold.

We could talk about this forever but um my last question and this is definitely my last question is as you think forward you know in your future. You said at the start of this podcast about visualizing every morning. You visualize and you think about the things that you want your future to hold. I know if I said to you like what's the end, there is no end, I get that because I understand your thinking. This is a continuous pursuit of your own hobbies and interests. But when you visualize what you want Christian's future to look like, say in you know a couple of decades from now, what are what are sort of the like the principles of that future? What are the characteristics of it?

Still want to look like today. Still want to look super sexy and young? Yes. You want to look 20 years old? We gonna make we gonna make that. We can do that on Photoshop? Um not on Photoshop, we gonna make them in real life. Because I value human connection, Photoshop doesn't work because you want to meet people.

We will be cyborgs anyway so in virtual world.

Well I think we gonna be cyborgs. I think we gonna that's one of the drivers which I think still human, we gonna merge with technology. We already are meaning uh what is it called like which you put on your heart like a a stent or like whatever yeah yeah is already like a cyborg. It's just like a very early exactly. It's a very so but that's the whole point.

I there is no end game because that would be kind of sad. It's this world it's the same like with work-life balance to say if I would just work because then you back at these famous sort of what was it a novel from whom was it like the already these old tale where the Fisher is on the the guy is on the beach and meets the guy with the boat. Yeah yeah I know the story. Where then it comes out oh he works his ass off just to lie on the beach and then the poor guy is saying why are you could lie on the beach now.

That's the whole point, it's about the journey, it's not about an end point. So I don't have an end point and I never had. I just like try to keep my life again it's all about keeping my life exciting because if if wouldn't then I would want to die. So keep my life cool. And this by the way this can change, meaning maybe in 40 years it's not I'm not a robot like this is not gonna I'm not gonna be I'm maturing like oh maturing like I'm changing in a positive way like uh maybe in 40 years I decide that I had now everything I had on a in entrepreneurship maybe I want to... You feel yourself changing and maturing in your life? Yeah but maturing is I want to use the wrong word, changing but in a in a good way that again I'm trying to continuously analyze what now we back at the word soul or whatever you would call it your inner voice is telling you what is good for me now and it might be that this is changing over time.

So for example I decided decided the wrong word like I feel that it's getting time some when not urgently to getting children. Like if you would have asked me 20 years ago I would have said no I don't want children. Like yeah so but it's like open being open for that. And maybe in 40 years I'm just making it up now as an example not that I feel you in here like maybe I say look I want to be a singer now. God beware! and the world is like no no because I really can't but maybe I have some new ideas which really like are different what I'm doing now. But like it's important to stay open for that inner voice because it might change and just because again so far continuously I love doing what I do and exploring that but like you know what I mean? Like.

I can get you. So don't put an endpoint. There is no this one thing because that would be sad. Like if you... Most depressing day ever, isn't it? Exactly. Like if you then you lose all meaning seemingly. Yeah. Well listen thank you so much for for agreeing to do this. You are honestly one of the most fascinating people I've ever met and I'm not just saying to your face.

I want to win an Oscar by the way, shouldn't say.

I'm sure you do! No no no no that was one I want to be doing something creative. Like I love something artistic. I've I've gone through the same thing since leaving Social Chain I was like "I'm going to DJ, I'm I've done a big..." That by the way I thought was very cool when you told me that. I was like "That's a cool thing." I've got I've got a tour. I've got I've directed a theatrical show with the associate director of Hamilton. It's it's theater, it's called The Diary of a CEO Live. It's the theatrical version of my life. There's a 50-person choir, sold out already.

And I said to myself that I didn't want to be a label. So I don't want to be a social media CEO, I'm a guy that has a bunch a perspective, and that perspective can be applied to art, my book, which I wrote myself, the show, creating music. I've got I have my first DJ performance at a festival this year. And I just thought detach what if you detached yourself from your labels? What kind of person would you become? You'd become artistic, you'd become health-centric, you'd start businesses, you know.

For example I always think I should write a script. Because I can't act, meaning I could but I'm not good in it like also you should be always self-aware of what you what it's not worth pursuing. But like I always surely maybe I should write a script I was because I love movies I produce movies so so I was like maybe I should A again but it's always listening to yourself what your your soul inner voice however you gonna call it.

Not society.

Exactly and not outside world is telling you.

You are the probably the most interesting person I know, in in a really compelling way. Sometimes I know people and they're like successful and I think "Oh god I'd hate to be that person," but you are in like a really compelling unique way because of your work you do but because of your philosophy for life, because of this sort of this I guess like almost I don't know what they how do they they refer to it but this like how your how your scientific view can can merge with a spiritual one and a religious one I find super fascinating. I think it's those sort of intersections that create really interesting ideas. Um you're also the most hardworking person I know um but you're also a really nice guy.

Oh thank you.

You know really like nice guy behind the scenes as well. And so thank you for coming on the podcast. I think you know I think your future is going to be staggering. I talk about you all the time to my team, all the time. I'm like "You know because you are very, very compelling in a number of really positive ways." I think I think the work you're doing with Atai, Compass and all of your other companies is staggering and I think you're actually going to be one of the most important entrepreneurs, creators of our time. And I think the world is...

Oh yeah now it's like...

No no I genuinely am. Germans are very bad with that with praise. Like we don't have these like words. I genuinely was like I know Christian coming on my podcast now I know in 10 years time this probably going to be one of my most viewed podcasts ever because of the trajectory you're on and the way you think. It's my my prediction I'm very rarely wrong.

Oh well but thank you.

But thank you and it's been a privilege to work with you over the last couple of months and understand that because it's been inspiring for me. Um thank you for doing this today, I hope you've enjoyed it.

Yeah I did, I did very much.

Amazing, thank you.

Thank you.

When your cat is acting weirder, or your dog is being louder, your turtle moves slower. Hello, Ted? Your cat seems thirstier. Whoa, slow down buddy. Or your puppy is acting clumsier. Day or night, if you don't know what's wrong, know where to go. Veg ER for Pets. This is Kate. Veg, the better, kinder ER for pets.

When your cat is acting weirder, or your dog is being louder, your turtle moves slower. Hello, Ted? Your cat seems thirstier. Whoa, slow down buddy. Or your puppy is acting clumsier. Day or night, if you don't know what's wrong, know where to go. Veg ER for Pets. This is Kate. Veg, the better, kinder ER for pets.