Ryan Schiller: Librex and the Free Exchange of Ideas on College Campuses
嘉宾：Ryan Schiller
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§01Transcript · 00:00–19:16
The following is a conversation with Ryan Schiller, creator of Librex, an anonymous
discussion feed for college communities starting at first with Yale, then the Ivy Leagues, and now
adding Stanford and MIT. Their mission is to give students a place to explore ideas and issues
in a positive way, but with much more personal and intellectual freedom than has defined college
campuses in recent history. I think this is a very difficult but worthy project. Quick thank you to
our sponsors, Allform, Magic Spoon, BetterHelp, and Brave. Click their links to support this podcast.
As a side note, let me say that Ryan is a young entrepreneur and genuine human being who quickly
won me over. He's inspiring in many ways, both in the struggle he had to overcome in his personal
life, but also in the fact that he did not know how to code, but saw a problem in this world,
in his community, that he cared about. And for that, he learned to code and built a solution
in the best way he knew how. That's an important reminder for us humans. Let us not only complain
about the problems in the world, let us fix them. I also have to say that there's passion in Ryan's
eyes for really wanting to make a difference in the world. His story, his effort gives me hope for
the future. There is hate in this world, but I believe there's much more love. And I believe
it's possible to build online platforms that connect us through our common humanity as we
explore difficult, personal, even painful ideas together. This is the Lex Friedman Podcast,
and here is my conversation with Ryan Schiller. Let's start with the basics. What is Librex?
What are its founding story and founding principles? And looking to the future,
what do you hope to achieve with Librex? - Sure, let me break that down. So what is Librex?
Librex is an anonymous discussion feed for college campuses. It's a place where people
can have important and unfettered discussions and open discourse about topics they care about,
ideas that matter. And they can do all of that completely anonymously with verified members of
their college community. And we exist both on each Ivy League campus and we have an inter-Ivy
community. And actually this week we just opened to MIT and Stanford. - No, really? MIT? Yes.
- And Stanford. So we have MIT and Stanford communities, and I expect you to sign up for
your MIT account and start posting. - What are, for people who are not familiar like me actually,
which are the Ivy Leagues? - Sure. So we started at Yale, which is my,
I don't know, can you call it alma mater? Because I haven't technically graduated.
- Yeah. What's that called when you're actually still there? My university.
- Yeah, I guess we'll just call it home. That's my home.
- Educational home. - Started at my educational home of Yale,
and then we moved to, and we could get into the story of this eventually if you'd like.
And then we went to Dartmouth and then quarantine hit. We opened to the rest of the Ivy League.
And now we have, and the Ivy League for those who don't know is Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Dartmouth,
Columbia, Cornell, Brown, and Penn. I got it all in one breath. - What's the youngest Ivy League,
Penn? No, Columbia. - I can't say it on camera.
- We'll edit it in post. I don't know. - I'll just say each of all eight of them,
and then you can just like get it in. - Yeah.
- Like Penn, Harvard. - There's actually a really nice
software that people should check out, like a service, it's using machine learning really nicely
for podcast editing, where you can, it learns the voice of the speaker and it can change the words
you said. - It's like some deep fake stuff.
- It's deep fake, but for positive applications. It's very interesting. It's like the only deep
fake positive applications I see. - I have a friend who's obsessed with
deep fakes. What's great about, I think, deep fakes is that it's gonna do the opposite of sort
of what's happening with our culture, where everyone will have plausible deniability.
- Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's the hope for me is there's so many fake things out there
that we're going to actually be much more skeptical and think and take in multiple sources
and actually like reason, like use common sense and use deep thinking to understand what is true
and what is not. Because we used to have traditional sources like the New York Times
and all these kinds of publications that had a reputation, there are these institutions,
and they're the source of truth. And when you no longer can trust anything as a source of truth,
you start to think on your own. That gets part of the individual. That takes us way back to
where I came from, the Soviet Union, where you can't really trust any one source of news.
You have to think on your own. You have to talk to your friends.
- Tremendous amount of intellectual autonomy, don't you think? Think about the societal
consequences. - Absolutely. I mean,
we see so much decentralization in all aspects of our digital lives now, but this is like
the decentralization of thought. You could say it's sadly, or I don't think it's sad,
is decentralization of truth, where truth is a clustering thing, where you have this point cloud
of people just swimming around, like billions of them, and they all have certain ideas. And what's
thought of as truth is almost like a clustering algorithm when you just get a bunch of people
that believe the same thing, that's truth. But there's also another truth, and there may be
multiple truths, and it's almost, it would be like a battle of truths. Maybe even the idea of truth
will lessen its power in society, that there is such a thing as a truth. 'Cause the downside of
saying something is true is, it's almost the downside of what people, religious people,
call scientism, which is like, once science has declared something as true, you can't no longer
question it. But the reality is, science is a moving mechanism. You're constantly questioning,
you're constantly questioning, and maybe truth should be renamed as a process, not a final
destination. The whole point is to keep questioning, keep questioning, keep discovering.
>> Kind of like we're going backwards in time to back when people were sort of
finding their identities and we were less globalized, right? People would get together,
and they'd get together around a common value system, common morals, and a common place.
And those would be sort of these clusters of their truth, right? And so we have all these different
civilizations and societies across the world that created their own truths. We talk about the Jews
and the Talmud and Torah, we can look at Buddhist texts, we can look at all sorts of different
truths and how many of them get at the same things, but many of them have different ideas
or different articulations. >> Yeah, Harari and Sapiens rewinds that even farther back into like
caveman times. That's the thing that made us humans special, is we can develop these clusters
of ideas, hold them in our minds through stories, pass them on to each other, and it grows and grows,
and finally we have Bitcoin. Which money is another belief system that has power only because
we believe in it. And is that truth? I don't know, but it has power. It's carried in the minds of
millions and thereby has power. But back to Librex. So what's the founding story, what's the
founding principles of Librex? >> Sure. So I was on campus as a freshman and I was talking to my
friends. Many of them felt like it was hard to raise your hand in class to ask a question. They
really felt like even outside the classroom it was hard to be vulnerable. And the thing you have to
understand about Yale is it's not that big a place. Everyone knows someone who knows someone who knows
you basically. And people come to these schools, first of all, they're home for people and they
want to be themselves. They want to feel like they can be authentic. They want to make real
friendships. And second of all, it's a place where people go for intellectual vitality to
explore important ideas and to grow as thinkers. And fortunately due to the culture, my friends
expressed that it was very difficult to do that and I felt it too. And then I go and talk to my
professors and I remember I talked to one specific global affairs professor and I was taking his
class and his area of expertise was in the Middle Eastern conflict. And I went to him and I said,
"Professor, we're almost finished this class and we haven't even gotten to sort of... The reason I
originally wanted to take the class was to hear about your perspective on the Middle Eastern
conflict." Because something I'd learned at Yale, and this is maybe a sort of a tangent, but I'll
flesh it out a bit. Something I'd learned at Yale is that you can learn all sorts of things from a
textbook and what you kind of go to Yale to do is to get the opinions of the experts that go
beyond the textbook and to have those more in-depth conversations. And so that's sort of
the added value of going to a place like Yale and taking a course there as opposed to just reading
a textbook. - But also interact with that opinion. - Exactly. - In person, yeah. - To interact with
that opinion, to hear it, to respond to it, to push back on it and to have that with some great
minds. And there really are great minds at Yale, don't get me wrong. It's still a place of tremendous
brilliance. So I'm talking to this professor, right? And I'm like, "I haven't heard your area
of expertise." And I'm like, "Are we going to get to it? What's the deal?" And this is during office
hours, mind you. So we're one-on-one. He says, "Ryan, to be honest, I used to teach this area
every single year. In fact, I would do a section on it, which is like a small seminar, like break
away from the class where he would talk to the students in small groups and explain his perspective,
his research, and have a real debate about it, like around a Harkness table." And he said, "I
used to do this. And then about two years ago, a student reported me to the school and I realized
my job was at risk. And I realized the best course of action was basically just not to broach the
topic. And so now I just don't even mention it." And he's like, "You can say whatever you want, but
I'm not going to be a part of it." And it's a real shame. It's a real loss to all of the students
who I think came to the school to learn from these brilliant professors. - In that context of these
world experts, the problem seems to be that reporting mechanism where there's a disproportionate
power to a complaint of a young student, a complaint that an idea is painful or an idea
is disrespectful to, or ideas creating an unsafe space. And the conclusion of that, I mean, I'm not
sure what to do with that because it's a single reporting, maybe a couple, but that has more power
than the idea itself. And that's strange. I don't know how to fix that in the administration,
except to fire everybody. So this is to push back against this storyline that academia is
somehow fundamentally broken. I think we have to separate a lot of things out.
Like one is you have to look at faculty and you have to look at the administration.
And like at MIT, for example, the administration tries to do well, but they're the ones that often
lack courage. They're often the ones who are the source of the problem. When people criticize
academia, and I'll just speak to myself, I'm willing to take heat for this, is they really
are criticizing the administration, not the faculty, because the faculty oftentimes are the
most brilliant, the boldest thinkers that you think. Whenever you talk about, we need the truth
to be spoken, the faculty are often the ones who are in the possession of the deepest truths in
their mind. And in that sense, and they also have the capacity to truly educate in the way that
you're saying. And so it's not broken fundamentally, but there's stuff that's not
working that well and needs to be fixed. - You kind of took my words. That's what I
thought you were gonna ask me if I think the Ivy League is broken. That's totally,
that's exactly it. - So you don't think, yeah. So on the
question, do you think the Ivy League is broken, how do you think about it? The academia in general,
I suppose, but Ivy League still, I think it represents some of the best qualities of academia.
- Yeah, what more is there to say there? I think the Ivy League is producing tremendous
thinkers to this day. I think the culture has a lot that can be improved, but I have a lot of
faith in the people who are in these institutions. I think, like you said, the administration,
and I have to be a little careful because I've been in some of these committees and I have talked
to the administration about these sorts of things. I think they have a lot of stakeholders,
and unfortunately it makes it difficult for them to always serve these brilliant faculty and the
students in the way that they would probably like to. - Yeah, okay, so this is me speaking,
right? The administration, I know the people, and they're oftentimes the faculty holding positions
in these committees, right? - Yes.
- But it's in the role of quote-unquote service, they're trying to do well. They're trying to do
good, but I think you could say the mechanism is not working, but I could also say my personal
opinion is they lack courage, and one, courage, and two, grace when they walk through the fire.
So courage is stepping into the fire, and grace when you walk through the fire is like maintaining
that, as opposed to being rude and insensitive to the lived quote-unquote experience of others,
or just not eloquent at all, as you step in and take the courageous step of saying the difficult
thing, doing it well, doing it skillfully. So both of those are important, the courage and the skill
to communicate difficult ideas, and they often lack them because they weren't trained for it,
I think. So you can blame the mechanisms that allow 19, 20-year-old students to have more power
than the entire faculty, or you could just say that the faculty need to step up and grow some guts
and skill of graceful communication. - And really administration.
- Well, yeah, and the administration, that's right, that's the administration.
- 'Cause the faculty are sometimes some of the most brave, outspoken people
within the bounds of their career. - Yeah, so that's like the founding
kind of spark of a fire that led you to then say, "Okay, so how can I help?"
- Yeah, and I explored a lot, I explored a lot of options. I wrote many articles to my friends,
talked to them, and I realized it sort of needed to be a cultural change, sort of needed to be
bottom-up, grassroots, something. I knew the energy was there because you just look at the
most recent institutional assessment from Yale, this was basically the number one thing that
students, faculty, and alumni all pointed to, to the administration, was cultivating more
conversations on campus and more difficult conversations on campus. So the people on
campus know it. And you look at a Gallup poll, 61% of students on Ivy League campuses are afraid to
speak their minds because of the campus culture. The campus culture is causing a sort of freezing
effect on discourse. - Can you pause on that again?
So what percentage of students feel afraid to speak their mind?
- 61% nationally. And you're talking about places, nothing like the Ivy League, where I'd say,
I'd imagine it would be even worse because of just the way that these communities kind of come
about and the sorts of people who are attracted or are invited to these sorts of communities.
That's nationwide, that college students, and it's going up, that college students are afraid to
say what they believe because of their campus climate. So it's a majority. It's not a conservative
thing, it's not a liberal thing, it's a group thing. We're all feeling it. The majority of
us are feeling it. - And basically,
you don't even necessarily need to have anything to say, you just have a fear.
- That's right. - So when you're teaching,
metaphor is a really powerful thing to explain. And there's just the caution that you feel that's
just horrible for humor. Now, comedians have the freedom to just talk shit, which is why I really
appreciate somebody who's been a friend recently, Tim Dillon, who gives zero, pardon my French,
fucks about anything, which is very liberating, very important person to just tear down the
powerful. But inside the academia, as an educator, as a teacher, as a professor, you don't have the
same freedom. So that fear is felt, I guess, by a majority of students. - And you were getting
at something there too, which is that if you're afraid to speak metaphorically, if you're afraid
to speak imprecisely, it can be very difficult to actually think at all and to think to the
extremities of what you're capable of. Because these are the mechanisms we use when we don't
have quite the precise mathematical language to quite pinpoint what we're talking about yet.
This is the beginning. This is the creative step that leads to new knowledge. And so that really
scares me is that if I'm not allowed to sort of excavate these things, these ideas with people
in the sort of messy, sloppy way that we do as humans when we're first being creative,
are we going to be able to continue to innovate? Are we going to continue to be able to learn?
That's what really starts to scare me. - So you've explored a bunch of different ideas. You
wrote a bunch of different stuff. How did Librex come about? - Basically, it came to me that it had
to be kind of a grassroots movement and it had to be something that changed culturally. And it had
to be relatively personal. People meeting people. People finding out that, "No, I'm not the only one
on campus who feels this way. I feel alone, and there are a lot of other people who feel alone.
I believe this thing, and it's not as unpopular as I thought." Basically creating heterodoxy of
thought. And it's creating that moment where you realize that your politics are personal and that
§02Transcript · 19:22–37:35
your politics are shared by a lot of people on campus. And so I just started coding it. I didn't
have much coding experience, but went head first in and figured how hard could it be? - I mean,
this is really fascinating. So I talked to a lot of software engineers, AI people. Obviously,
that's where my passion, my interests are. My focus has been throughout my life. The fascinating
thing about your story, I think it should be truly inspiring to people that want to change the world,
is that you don't have a background in programming. You don't have even maybe a technical
background. So you saw a problem, you explored different ideas, and then you just decided you're
going to learn how to build an app without a technical background. You didn't try to...
That's so bold. That is so beautiful, man. Can you take me through the journey of deciding to
do that, of learning to program without a programming background, and building the app?
Detail, what do you actually... How do you start? - Sure. I mean, you want to buy a Mac. I learned
you had to buy a Mac. I'm just going to go step by step, right? I'll be as dumb as possible.
It was truly leading by your feet. - So you needed a computer for this. - Oh yeah, I had a PC at the
time, and I was Android at the time. And I realized it should be like an iOS app. And so
that was a decision. But I knew kids these days, they're always on their phone. And I wanted you
to be able to say a passing thought in class, make a passing... You're walking around and you have a
thought and you can express it. Or you're in the dining hall and you have your phone out, you can
express it. So it was clear to me it should be an iOS app. - By the way, Android is great.
Definitely check that out. - We also are now available on Android, but we'll get there
for the Android users from MIT, Stanford, or the Ivy League. So back to how it happened. So I
realized I needed a Mac. So went out and got a Mac. And I realized I needed an iPhone for testing
eventually. Got an iPhone. So those were the real robot blocks to start with. From there, I mean,
there's almost too much information out there about programming. The question is like, where do
you start and what's going to be useful to you? And my first thought was I should look at some
Yale classes, but it became very clear very quickly that that was not the right place to start.
That would probably be the right place to start if I wanted to get a job at Amazon, but my goal
was slightly different. And I definitely had it in mind that what I was trying to make was I'm
trying to prove out an idea. I'm not trying to make a finished product. I'm just trying to get
to the first step. Because I figured if I keep getting to the next step, at least I won't die
now. At least things will move forward. I'll learn new things. Maybe I'll meet new people.
I'll show a degree of seriousness about what I'm doing, and things will come together. And that is,
as you'll see, what ends up happening. So I start with Swift, right? And I find this video from the
Stanford professor that had a million views that was like, how to make basically Swift apps perfect.
- And you just like, so you got this Mac and you went like, go to google.com and you type in--
- Download Xcode.
- Xcode.
- Yeah, and then I type it on YouTube like, Stanford iOS Swift, enter. First YouTube video
has a million views. I'm like, it has to be good at Stanford, has a million views.
I got lucky. I mean, that turned out to be a very good video.
- And it's basically like introductory course to Swift.
- Yeah, I mean, you say introductory. I think most of the people in that class
probably had a much better background than I did.
- They're software developers probably. They're computer scientists.
- And it was slow for me. I don't think I realized it fully at the time, just how far behind I was
from the rest of the class. 'Cause I was like, wow, it seems like people are picking this up
really quickly. So it took a little longer and a lot of time on Stack Overflow. But eventually I
made a truly minimal viable product. The most minimal, like we're talking, put text on screen,
add text to screen, comment on top of text, make a post, make a response. And anyone with a Yale
email can do this. And you plug it into a cloud server and you verify people's accounts and you're
off. You have--
- You have to figure out how to, like the whole idea of like having an account. So there's a
permanence, like you can create an account with an email.
- Verify it.
- Verify it. Okay. So that's not, you know--
- And that's literally how I thought about it, right? Like, so what do I need to do? And I'm
like, well, first thing I need is a login page. And I'm like, how to make a login page in Swift?
I mean, it's that easy. If someone, this has been done before, of course--
- And then the first page that pops up was probably a pretty damn good page when you--
- It wasn't that bad. It wasn't perfect, but like maybe it got me 80% of the way there.
- Yeah.
- And then I came into some bugs and then, you know, I asked Stack Overflow a few questions
and then I got a little further and then I found some more bugs. And then I'm like,
maybe this isn't the right way to do it. Maybe I should do it this way. And I'm sure my code
isn't great, but the goal isn't to make great code. The goal wasn't to make scalable code.
It was to understand, is this something my friends will use? Like, what is the reaction
going to be if I put it in their hands? And am I capable of making this thing?
- That's awesome. And so you're just focusing on the experience, like actually just really
driving towards that first step, figuring out the first step and really driving towards it.
Of course, you have to also figure out like this concept of like storage, like database.
- You know something funny?
- What's that?
- I just made the database structure with no knowledge of databases whatsoever.
And I start showing it to my friends who have an experience in CS and they're like,
you used a heap, that's so interesting. You're like, why did you decide to store it in this way?
I'm like, bro, I don't even know what a heap is. I just did it 'cause it works. Like,
I'm trying to make calls and stuff. And they're like, yeah, they're like,
the hierarchy is really like, and I'm like, what?
- Well, there's a deep, profound lesson in there that I don't know how much you've interacted
with computer science people since, but they tend to optimize and have these kinds of discussions.
And what results is over-optimization. It's like worrying, is this really the right way to do it?
And then you go, as opposed to doing the first thing on Stack Overflow, you go down this like
rabbit hole of what's the actual proper way to do it. And then you're like, you wake up five years
later working on Amazon because you've never finished the login page. Like, it's kind of
hilarious, but that's a really deep lesson. Like, just get it done. And there's like, what's a heap,
bro? Is the right, that should be a T-shirt. That's really the right approach to building
something that ultimately creates an experience. And then you iterate eventually. That's how some
of the greatest software products in this world have been built, is you create it quickly and
then just iterate. What was, by the way, in your mind, the thing that you were chasing as a
prototype? Like, what was the first step that it feels like something is working?
Like, is it you interacting with another friend? - Yeah, I think the first step was like,
it's one thing to tell someone about an idea, but it's another thing to put in their hands and kind
of see the way their eyes kind of look. And when I'd go, I'd walk around cross campus, which is
part of Yale, and I'd literally just go up to people and run up to them and be like, try this,
try this, you gotta try this. This is pre-quarantine, by the way, of course. This would
never be the same post-quarantine, but like, you gotta try this, you gotta try this. Like, what is
it? And I'd be like, and I'd explain, it's like an anonymous discussion feed for our Yale campus.
And you'd see their gears turning and they just, some people would be like, not interested. I'm
like, fine, not your target demographic, I get it, you'll come eventually. But some people,
like, you could see it, they got it. They're like, yes. And that's when I was like, okay, okay,
there is, and you don't need, I mean, you don't need 50% of people to like it. You need what,
5%, 10% to love it, and then they'll tell 5%, 10%. - Yeah, word of mouth, yeah. - And you're good.
Of course, the first version was very, very crappy, but seeing people trying, despite all
the crappiness, it was sort of enough to be the first step. And since then, all of my code's been
stripped out. I now have friends who basically have told me, don't bother with the coding part,
you do the rest, you just make sure that we can code, because they wanna code. Great. I mean,
I'm not an engineer. I never intended to be an engineer, and there's a lot to do that's
not engineering. But the point was just to validate the idea, so to speak. - When was the moment that
you felt like, we've created something special? Maybe a moment where you're proud of that this is,
this has the potential to actually be the very implementation of the idea that I initially had.
- There's so many little moments. And I bet there'll still be moments in the future that make
it hard to totally say. - Yeah, we should say this is still
the very early days of LibreX. - Yeah. It's literally been a year.
- It's only been a year? - Since we've had actual,
a lot of people on the app, yeah, about a year. - Oh, wow, okay.
- I mean, there's some crazy moments. I could talk about going to Dartmouth, 'cause it's one thing to
get some traction at your school. People know you, and it's your school. It's another thing to go to
another school where no one knows you and sign up 90% of the campus overnight.
- Wow, so tell me that story. You're invading another territory.
- It was literally like that. - Did you buy a Dartmouth sweatshirt?
- Purposely, I didn't want to fraud anyone, but I was purposefully non-descript in my clothing.
Yeah, no Yale stuff, no Dartmouth stuff, just blended. I'll go back there. So what happened was
this was like March of last year, so almost a year ago today. And I really wanted to see if we could
go from sort of one campus to two campuses. So I didn't know anyone at Dartmouth's campus, but I
kind of had some cold emails, some warm-ish emails. And I went to people and I was like,
basically, can I sleep on your floor for two days during finals period? I had a lot of people who
said, this is crazy, like no one wants to download an app during finals period, a social app during
finals period. But I emailed a few people, I was like, can I sleep on your floor? And one of them
was crazy enough to say, sure, come to my dorm, I have a nice floor. And he ended up, today he's
still really close, he's a really close friend. But anyway, I take a train knowing nothing about
this guy besides his first and last name. And I arrive and Dartmouth is really, really remote,
way more remote than you think to the point where I'm like, he's like, he warned me, he's a really
hospitable guy. He warned me like, it's gonna be hard to get to campus from the train station
because it's really remote. And I'm like, I'm sure it's fine, I'll just get an Uber. There are no
Ubers in Hanover. What do you think this is? - It's New Hampshire. So Connecticut, I mean,
Yale is pretty remote as well, no? - Yeah, Yale is, well, I mean,
Yale's in New Haven, which is a real city. It has Ubers, it has food, it has culture,
it has a nightclub even. Like we're talking about a real city, like it's not New York,
it's not Philadelphia where I'm from, but it's a city. New Hampshire is something very different.
- Yeah, beautiful campus, I'm sure. - Beautiful, oh my gosh, I could talk
so much about, I was blown away by Dartmouth. I started wondering like why I didn't apply
legitimately. Between the people and the culture, it was a beautiful vacation. So I arrived there,
no Uber, but eventually I call this guy who's like the only guy who can get you to Dartmouth
and it takes a couple hours, but we get there. I sleep on this guy's floor, I wake up, I ask him
if there's any printing. He's like, "Oh, Dartmouth happens to have free printing in the copy room."
I print out like 2000 posters until the guy in the copy room literally goes to me, he's like,
"Kid, I don't know what you're doing, but you need to get out of here." I'm like, "All right,
I'm going, I'm going." - You found the limits.
- I know, yeah, I found the limit. And I think a lot of startups is about finding the limits.
Maybe that's a little piece of advice socially. He's like, "You gotta get out of here." And I
then go to every single dorm door, I put a poster under every single dorm door advertising the app
with a QR code. I walk around campus saying hi to everyone and telling them about the app. I go from
table to table in the cafeteria, introduce myself, say hi, and tell them to download the app.
It's exhausting, there's so many steps, so many crotching down to slip the poster under the dorm
door, my legs were burning. But by the end of it, 24 hours later, I'm sitting in a bus and I'm just
pressing the refresh button on the account creation panel. It's like going up by hundreds.
And I'm like, "Oh my gosh." - The word of mouth is working in a sense.
I mean, certainly your initial seed is powerful. - Just a piece.
- Yeah, but then the word of mouth is what carries it forward. And what was the explanation you gave
to the app? Is anonymity a fundamental part of it? Like saying, "This is a chance for you to speak
your mind about your experiences on campus." - Yeah, I think people get it. What I've realized
is you don't need to tell people why to try it, they know. - There's a hunger for this.
- Exactly. So all I do is I'm very factual, I said, and this is where I kind of ended up coining the
kind of the line that I now use to say it because I said it so many times in those 24 hours. I just
said it's an anonymous discussion feed for Dartmouth. And they're like, "Yes."
Like they've been waiting for it. Some people are more skeptical, but a lot of people were like,
"Great, I'm excited to try this. I'm excited to meet people and connect." And I mean, the way
Dartmouth's taken to it is incredible. Everything from professors writing poems during finals period
to be like, "Good luck in finals period, you're gonna rise like a phoenix," or whatever,
to like, "Yeah, it's crazy." I heard about two women meeting on Librex and starting a finance
club at Dartmouth, two significant others meeting. There was an article recently written up at Yale
as well about two queer women who met on Librex and started a relationship, which was pretty,
it was pretty interesting to see people throwing parties pre-COVID. Yeah, it was just amazing to
see how when you allow people to be vulnerable and social, they connect. People have this natural
desire to connect. - Yeah, when you have, when they have a natural desire to have a voice,
and then when that voice is paired with freedom, then you could truly express yourself. And there's
something liberating about that. And in that sense, you're connecting as your true self,
whatever that is. What are the most powerful conversation you've seen on the app? You
mentioned people connecting. - The hard part about that is the sorting, figuring out which one am I
gonna put at the top. - Mental sorting. Just something that stands out to you. Sorry, I don't
mean to do the top 10 conversations ever of all time, ever on the app. I just mean stuff that you
remember that stands out to you. - I remember this one really amazing comment from this,
he was a Mexican international student who spoke out, and this post was super edgy,
but yet it got hundreds and hundreds of upvotes within the Yale community. It was a Yale community
specific post. And we should point out that there's a school specific community now, and
there's an all Ivy community. So this was specifically in the Yale community. And this
was a little while ago, but it stuck with me. This Mexican international student comes to Yale,
and he starts talking about his experience in the La Casa, which is the Mexican Latinx,
as they would say, cultural center at Yale, and how he doesn't feel welcome there because he's
Roman Catholic, basically, and international, and how he doesn't feel like he fits with their
agenda. And as a result, this place that's supposed to be home for him, he feels outcasted
and feels more alone than he does anywhere else on campus. - That's powerful. - That was powerful
to me. Yeah. Hearing someone who should be feeling supported by this culture say,
"Actually, this is not doing anything for me. This is not helping me. This is not where I feel
at home." - So what do you make of anonymity? Because it seems to be a fundamental aspect
of the power of the app, right? But at the same time, anonymity on the internet,
so it protects us, right? It gives us freedom to have a voice, but it can also bring out the
dark sides of human nature, like trolls or people who want to be malicious, want to hurt others
purely for the joy of hurting others, being cruel for fun, and going to the dark places. So
what do you make of anonymity as a fundamental feature of social interaction,
like the pros and the cons? - Yeah, just to break that down a bit, I would say a lot of those same
§03Transcript · 37:40–58:03
things about a place like Twitter, where people are very unanonymous. Having said that, of course,
there's a different sort of capacity people have when they're anonymous, right? In all different
sorts of ways. So what do I make of anonymity? I think it can be incredibly liberating and allow
people to be incredibly vulnerable and to connect in different ways, both on politics, and there was
a lot to talk about this year regarding politics, and personally, being vulnerable, talking about
relationships and mental health. I think it allows people to have a community that's not performative.
And of course, there's this other side where people can sometimes break rules or say things
that they wouldn't otherwise say that people don't always agree with, or that people might
find repugnant. And to an extent, these can facilitate great conversations. And on the other
hand, we have to have moderation in place, and we have to have community guidelines to make sure
that the anonymity doesn't overwhelm the purpose, which is that anonymity, first of all, anonymity
is a tool in LibreX. It was not the purpose of LibreX. It is a way that we get towards these
authentic conversations given our campus climate. And second of all, I would say it's a spectrum.
It's not just LibreX is anonymous, right? Because LibreX isn't totally anonymous. Everyone's a
verified Ivy League student. You know exactly what school everyone goes to. You only have
one account per person at Yale, meaning that, I mean, what that amounts to is people have more
of an ownership in the community, and people know that they're connected and they have a
common vernacular. So the anonymity is a scale and it's a tool. - But you can also trust, I mean,
this is the difference between Reddit anonymity, where you can easily create multiple accounts.
When you have only one account per person, or at least it's very difficult to create multiple
accounts, then you can trust that the anonymous person you're talking to is a human being.
- Not a bot. - I try to be completely
unanonymous now in my public interactions. I try to be as real in every way possible,
like zero gap between private me and public me. - Why exactly did you, it seems like this is an
intentional mission. What made you want to sort of bridge that gap between the private sphere and
public sphere? 'Cause that's unique. I know a lot of intellectuals who would make a different
decision. - Yeah, interesting. I had a discussion about with Naval about this, actually, with a few
others that have a very clear distinction between public and private. - Something I'm struggling
with, by the way, personally, and thinking about. - So one on the very basic surface level is if you
carry with yourself lies, small lies or big lies, it's extramental effort to remember what you're
supposed to say and not supposed to say. So that's on a very surface level of like, it's just easier
to live life when you have the smaller of the gap between the private you and the public you.
The second is, I think for me, from an engineering perspective,
like if I'm dishonest with others, I will too quickly become dishonest with myself.
And in so doing, I will not truly be able to think deeply about the world and come up and
build revolutionary ideas. There's something about honesty that feels like it's that first
principles thinking that's almost like overused as a term, but it feels like that requires radical
honesty, not radical asshole and lichness, but radical honesty with yourself, with yourself.
And it feels like it's difficult to be radically honest with yourself when you're being dishonest
with the public. And also I have a nice feature, honestly, that in this current social context,
so we can talk about race and gender and what are the other topics that are touchy?
- Ethnicity and nationality.
- All those things. I mean like...
- Family structure.
- Maybe I'm ineloquent in the way I speak about them, but I honestly, when I look in the mirror,
like I'm not deeply hateful of a particular race or even just hateful of a particular race.
I'm sure I'm biased and I've tried to think about those biases and so on. And also I don't have any
creepy shit in my closet about women. It seems like a lot of people did a lot of creepy stuff
in their life. And I just feel like that's really nice and deliberating. And especially now,
it's funny because I've gotten a bit of a platform and I think it all started when I went,
this is a female comedian, Whitney Cummings. And I've gotten a lot of amazing women writing me
throughout, but when I went on Whitney, it was like the number of DMs I get on Instagram
from women is just ridiculous. And I think that was a really important moment for me is like,
I speak and I feel, I really value love, long-term monogamy with one person.
And it's like, I could see where a lot of guys would now continue that message in public and
in private, just start sleeping around. And so that's an important statement for me mentally.
It's like, nope. - Straight and narrow.
- It just goes straight and narrow. And not out of fear, but out of principle and just
live life honestly. And I feel like that's truly liberating as a human being. Forget public,
all that, because then I feel like I'm on sturdy ground when I say
difficult things. And at the same time, sorry, I'm ranting on this, I apologize.
- I'm interested personally, so keep going. - I honestly believe in the internet,
in people on the internet, that when they hear me speak, they can see if I'm full of shit or not.
I won't be able to fake it. They'll see it through. Yeah. So I feel like if you're not
lying about stuff, you have the freedom to truly be yourself and the internet will figure it out.
Will figure who you are. - People have a natural
tendency to be able to tell bullshit. And it makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint.
- Exactly. - Why wouldn't, why,
of all the things that we could evolve to be good at, being able to detect honesty seems like one
that would be particularly valuable, especially in the sorts of societies we developed into.
- And then also from a selfish perspective, like a success perspective, I think there's a lot of
folks that have inspired me, like Elon is one of them, that shows that there's a hunger for genuineness.
Like you can build a business as a CEO and be genuine and like real and do stupid shit every
once in a while, as long as it's coming from the same place of who you truly are.
Like Elon's inspirational with that. And then there's a lot of other people I admire
that are counter-inspirations in the sense like they're very formal, they hold back a lot of
themselves. And it's like, I know how brilliant those people are and I think they're not being
as effective of leaders, public faces of companies as they could be. I mean, to be honest, like,
not to throw shade, but I will, is like Mark Zuckerberg is an example of that.
Jack Dorsey's also a bit of an example of that. I like Jack a lot. I've talked to him a lot.
I will talk to him more. I think he's a much more amazing person than he conveys through his public
presentation. I think a lot of that has to do with PR and marketing people having an effect.
Listen, it's difficult. I think it's really difficult. It's probably many of the same
difficulties you will face is the pressures, but it's hard to know what to do. But I think
as much as possible as an individual, you should try to be honest in the face of the world and the
company that wants you to be more polished. And that being more polished turns you into a
politician and politician eventually turns into being dishonest. Dishonest with the world and
dishonest with yourself. - Something I noticed, which was the people, of the people you mentioned,
those things have had ramifications in terms of letting things go too far, get out of hand. And
you wonder, it's an aspect of lying, right? You say one lie goes to another lie, you push it down,
it doesn't matter. You can figure it out later. You can figure out later. Pretty soon,
you've dug a pretty big hole. And I think if we look at Twitter and we look at Facebook,
I think it goes without saying what sorts of holes have been dug, perhaps because of a lack
of honesty that goes all the way up to the leaders. - So yeah, there's two problems within
the company. It doesn't make you as effective of a leader, I think. That's one. And two,
for social media companies, I think people need to trust, like, it doesn't have to be the CEO,
but it has to be, like, this is how humans work. We want to look to somebody where like,
I trust you. If you're going to use a social media platform, I think you have to trust
the set of individuals working at the top of that social. - Something I realized really quickly,
one of the lessons throughout the startup was that people don't totally connect to products as
much as they connect to people. And I mean, I don't know how much you've spent on Librex,
you've only been here the last couple of weeks, like last week, but I mean, I love the product.
And one of the aspects of me loving the product is that I'm super active and I've been super
active throughout the entire time. And the amount of support I've received has made that very easy
to do from the community and the fact that I could, I mean, so I came to Boston for this interview,
right? I came to Boston, I got off the train, it was around 5.30 PM, I checked Librex, someone
is writing, "Hey, I'm in Boston, does anyone want to get dinner?" 30 minutes later, I'm getting
dinner with them. - That's amazing. - And I mean, it's incredible. First of all, as an entrepreneur,
the amount of stuff I learn from these people and when they reiterate and I hear that they got the
message through the product, I mean, that's incredibly validating. But also, I mean, I think
it's just important to be able to put a face to a brand and especially a brand that's built on trust.
Because fundamentally, the users are trusting us with some really important discussions and some
really, and a movement to some degree. It's a community and a movement. - I'll tell you actually
why I didn't use the app very much so far is there's something really powerful about the way
it's constructed, which I felt like a bit of an outsider 'cause I don't know the communities. It
felt like it's a really strong community around each of these places. And so I felt like I was,
it made me really wish there was an MIT one. And so there's both discussions about the deep
like community issues within Columbia or Yale or so on, Dartmouth. And there's also the broader
community of the Ivy Leagues that people are discussing. But I could see that actually
expanding more and more and more, but which is a powerful coupling, which is the feeling of like
this little village, this little community we're building together, but also the broader issues.
- Yeah. - So you can do both
discussions. - One thing that was important to me is
talking about social media as a concept, right? I think the way people socialize is very much
context dependent. So we're talking about people understanding each other through language,
through English. And these languages are constructed in a very nuanced way, in a very
sort of temperamental way, right? And you kind of need a similar context to be able to have
productive conversations. So to me, it's really important that these groups, they share something
in common, a really big lived experience, the Ivy League or their school community. And they have a
similar vocabulary, they have a similar background, they know what's happening in their community.
And so having social media that is community connected to me was fundamental. Like you talk
about anonymity, to me, community is the thing that when I think about Librex, I think what
makes it different. It's the fact that everyone knows what's going on. Everyone comes from a
similar context and people can socialize in a way where they understand each other because they've
been through, you used the word lived experience, they've been through so many of the same lived
experiences. - One clarification, is there an easy way, if you choose, to then connect and meet space
and physical space? - So I guess the sort of magic of it, and I was talking to a bunch of Harvard
Librexers who I met off the app while I was in Boston. And every time they told me, this is my
favorite part of the app, this is what I love about the app. We have this matching system,
which is an anonymous direct message that you can send to any poster. So I was talking to this guy
who, he was really into coin collection, and he met other people who were really into coin
collection through a post and he would make a post about coin collection. And then someone would come
to him and they'd be like, and they could direct message him anonymously and it would just show
them that his, it would just show him their school. And then they could just text chat,
totally anonymously, direct message if he accepted the anonymous request. - Do they see the usernames?
- There are no usernames on Librex. It's all just schools names. So he made this post about coin
collection and you got a direct message. - Yeah, I guess so, right? - No usernames. - Because I was just looking
at the text. - Yeah. - That's interesting, that's right. - And I can tell you, I can go into why.
- That's really interesting. - Yeah, I can go into it. - So it truly is anonymous. - It's, well, I mean,
- It depends on what you mean by anonymous. - Exactly. - It's a very different kind of anonymous. - And the reason
that we made that decision is because we wanted people to connect to ideas.
We wanted people to connect to things in the moment. We don't want people to go,
"Oh, I know this guy. He said this other thing." And we didn't want people to feel like they were
at risk of being doxed. So it's just, these are small communities, right? - Yeah. - We talked about this.
Everyone knows someone who knows you. - Yeah. - And in 2021, it would not take much to be able to figure
out who someone might be just through a couple of posts. So it's both safety and about the ideas
in terms of not adding usernames. Anyway, we have this anonymous direct message system where you can
direct message the original poster of any post, the OP, if you're a Redditor, of any post. And that
makes it really easy to meet up because once you guys are one-on-one, you can exchange a number,
you can exchange a Snapchat, you can exchange an email. Probably not very often, but you could.
And then that's how people meet up, matching. - And then a lot of people connect in this way.
Let me just take a small step into the technical. I read somewhere, I don't know if it's true,
that one of the reasons you were rejected from YC, Y Combinator, in the final rounds
is because one of the principles is to refuse to sell user data. Can you speak to that?
Why do you think it's important not to sell user data? And sort of, which draws a clear contrast
between other, basically any other service on the internet? - I mean, to be honest, it's quite
simple. I mean, we talk about this platform, people are talking about their most intimate
secrets, their political opinions. How are they feeling about what's going on in their city
during the summer? How are they feeling about the political cycle and also their mental health,
their relationships? These are some of the most intimate thoughts that people were having.
Point blank, I don't think it was ethical to pawn them off for a profit. I didn't think it was
moral. I don't think I could sleep at night if that was what I was doing, is turning these people's
most intimate beliefs and secrets into a currency that I bought and sold. There's something very
off about that. - I tend to believe that there is some room, so like Facebook would just take that
data and sell it, right? But there's some room in transparency and giving people the choice on
which parts they can, I wouldn't even see it as sell, but like share with advertisers. - Are you
gonna give them a profit? - So right, you have to monetize, you have to create an entire system,
you have to rethink this whole thing, right? But as long as you give people control and are
transparent and make it easy, like I think it's really difficult to delete a Facebook account,
or like delete all your data, or to download-- - I've tried, it's very difficult.
- So like just make it easy and trust in that if you create a great product, people are not going
to do it. And if they do it, then they're not actually a deep loving member of the community,
what's that? - So we very quickly realized that user privacy was something that was not only a
core value, but was something that users really cared about. And we added this functionality,
it's just a button that says forget me. You press it, like two clicks, it's not that hard,
we just remove your email from the database. You're good. - Beautiful, I think Facebook should
have that. I honestly, so call me crazy, but maybe you can actually speak to this, but I don't think
Facebook, well now they would, but if they did it earlier, they would lose that much money.
If they allow, like transparently tell people you could just delete everything. They also explain
that like in ways that's going to potentially like lessen your experience in the short term,
like explain that. But then there shouldn't be like multiple clicks of a button that don't make
any sense. I'm trying to hold back from ranting about Instagram, because let me just say real
quick, 'cause I've been locked out of Instagram for a month. And there's a whole group inside
Facebook that are like supporters of like Lex, help Lex. - Free Lex? - Free Lex. I wasn't blocked,
it was just like a bug in the system. Somebody was hammering the API with my account. And so
they kept thinking I'm a bot. Anyway, it's a bug, it happens to a lot of people. But like,
first of all, I appreciate the love from all the amazing engineers in Instagram and Facebook.
Love those folks. The entire mechanism though is somehow broken. I mean, I put that on the
leadership, but it's also difficult to operate a large company once it scales, all those kinds of
things. But it should not be that difficult to do some basic things that you want to do, which is,
§04Transcript · 58:12–1:18:10
in the case of Facebook, that's verify your identity to the app. And also in the case of
Facebook, in the case of LibreX, like disappear, if you choose. There's downsides to disappearing,
but it should not be a difficult process. And yeah, I think people are waking up to that.
I think there's a lot of room for an app like LibreX with its foundational ideas to redefine
what social media should look like. And like you said, I think beautifully, anonymity is not the
core value. It's just the tool you use. And who knows, maybe anonymity will not always be the tool
we use. Like if you give people the choice, who knows what this evolves from the login page you
initially created. The key thing is the founding principles. And again, who knows if you give
people a really nice way to monetize their data, maybe there'll no longer be a thing that you say,
do not sell user data. Yeah, all those kinds of things. But the basic principles should be there.
And also a good, simple interface design goes a really long way, like simplicity and elegance,
which LibreX currently is. Clubhouse is another- - It's gotten a lot better, by the way.
I don't mean to go too deep into the history, but the- - It was bad? I didn't look at the early
pictures. - Oh, thank goodness. - I read somewhere that it was like a white screen, like with black,
HTML basic. - The upvote and downvote buttons were like these big, freaking boxes. And I could go on,
but it was my genius design skills. I almost failed art class when I was in first grade,
and I think I still have similar skills to my first grade self. But it's gotten a lot better,
and thanks to a lot of my friends who have sort of chipped in here and there. - Oh, I love the idea
of a button that just, like, forget me. I don't know, that's really moving, actually. That's
actually all people want, is they want, I think, okay, I'll speak to my experience. I would give
so much more if I could just disappear if I needed to. And I trusted the community, I trusted
the founders and the principals. That's really powerful, man, the trust and ease of escape.
Yeah. You've also kind of mentioned moderation, which is really interesting. So with this anonymity
and this community, I don't know if you've heard of the internet, but there's trolls on the
internet. - So I've heard. - And even if they go to Yale and Dartmouth, there's still people that
probably enjoy the sort of being the guerrilla warfare, counter-revolutionary, and just, like,
creating chaos in a place of love. So how do you prevent chaos and hatred breaking out in Librex?
So the way I think about it is, we have these principals. They're pretty simple,
and they're pretty easy to enforce. And then beyond the principals, we have a set of moderators,
moderators from every single Ivy League school, a team of diverse moderators who enforce these
principals, but not only enforce the principals, but kind of clue us in to what's happening in
their community and how the real life context of their community translates to the Librex context
of their community. And beyond that, we have conversation with them about the standards of
the community, and we're constantly talking about what needs to be further elucidated and what needs
to be tweaked, and we're in constant communication with the community. Now, if you want me to get
into the principals that underlie Librex's moderation policy. - Yeah, please. Maybe you
can explain that there's moderators. What does that mean? How are they chosen, and what are
the principals under which they operate? - Sure. So how are the moderators chosen?
The moderators are all volunteers. They're Librexers who reach out to me and respond to
the opportunity to become moderator. And the way they're chosen is basically we want to make sure
that they're in tune with their community. We want to make sure they come from diverse backgrounds,
and we want to make sure that they sort of understand what the community is about. And then
we ask them some questions about how they would deal with certain scenarios, ones that we've had
in the past and we feel strongly about, and then also ones that are a little more murky, where we
want to see that they're sort of thinking about these things in a critical way. And from there,
we choose a set, and they have the power to take down posts. Of course, everything at the end of
the day depends on my review, but they can take them down, and we can reinstate them if it's a
problem. But they can take down posts, and they can advocate for different moderation standards
and different moderation policies. - So for now, you're the Linus Torvald of this community.
So meaning like, you're able to, like people are actually able to email you or like-
- Text me. - Text you, contact you, and get a response.
Like you respond to basically everybody. And then you're like really, you know, you're living that
live on people's floor life currently. That's not necessarily, this is the early days, folks.
I knew Ryan before he was a billionaire and he was cool. And then he was in a mansion making
meats on his barbecue. No, okay. But you know, how does it scale? Like what,
I suppose how does it scale is the question. I mean, with Linus, I don't know if you're
familiar with the Linux open source community, but he still stayed at the top for a while. It was
really important, like leadership there was really important to drive that large scale,
really productive open source community. What do you see your role as LibreX grows? And in general,
what are the mechanisms of scaling here for moderation? - The way I see it, open discourse
is fundamental to the purpose of the app, right? So as the, I guess you could say founder, CEO,
what have you, part of my purpose has to be to enforce the vision, right? And part of the vision
is open discourse. And that does come down in part to reasonable moderation and community-guided
reasonable moderation. So I imagine that will always be something that I'm intimately involved
with to some degree. Now the degree to which the way in which that manifests, I imagine will have
to change, right? And hopefully I'll be able to, just like you can hire a CTO, hopefully I'll be
able to be integrated in hiring people who understand the way that we are sort of operating
and the reasonable standards of moderation. And there can be a sort of hierarchical structure,
but I think when you have a product whose key purpose is to allow people to have these difficult
conversations on campus that need to be had. - Yeah, that moderation is core to that.
- I can never fully, I don't think I can fully ever abdicate that responsibility. I think that
would be like, I mean, that would be like Bezos abdicating e-commerce, right? Like that's part
of the job. - Yeah. Of course you can run companies in different ways. I think that,
'cause he might've abdicated quite a bit of the details there. - It's hard for me to say.
- Because Amazon does so many things. I think probably the better examples like Elon with
rockets, he's still at the core. - Of the engineering.
- He's at the core of the engineering. There's some fundamental questions of what,
he probably does way too much of the engineering. Like he's like the lowest level detail,
but you're saying like the core things that make the app work is the moderation of difficult
conversations. - And by the way, I'm 21 years old. Let's
remind us, everyone of that. If this thing does scale and if this thing continues to be a positive
force in a lot of people's lives, who knows what will happen in the next, what I'll learn.
I'm still growing, definitely as a leader, still growing as a thinker, still growing as a person.
I can't pretend that I know how to run a business that is worth up to $1 billion, whatever. I can't
pretend I know how to run a business that's going to have millions and millions of users. I expect
that there are going to be a lot of amazing people who will teach me and a lot of people who have
already kind of stepped into my life and helped me out and taught me things. And I imagine that I'll
learn so much more. I just know that moderation is always going to be important to me because I
don't think LibreX is LibreX unless we have open discourse and moderation, reasonable, open,
light touch moderation is at the heart of creating that, right?
- So as a creator of this kind of community in place with anonymity and difficult conversations,
what do you think about this touchy three words that people have been tossing around and
politicizing, I would say, but is at the core of the founding of this country, which is the
freedom of speech. How do you think about the freedom of speech, this particular kind of freedom
of expression? And do you think it's a fundamental human right? How do you define it to yourself when
you're thinking about it? I went down, especially preparing for this conversation down a rabbit
hole of like just how unclear it is, philosophically, what is meant by this kind of freedom.
It's not as easy as people think, but it's interesting, pragmatically speaking,
to hear how you think about it in the context of LibreX.
- Yeah, it's a tough one, right? There's a lot there. So I come from the background of being a
math major. Maybe it's important to start with that. And I found myself in the middle of this
question of freedom of speech. One of the wonderful things is that the LibreX community is filled with
PhDs and governance majors who have taught me a ton about this sort of thing. And I'm still
learning. I'm still growing. I'm still probably going to modify my perspective to some degree,
hopefully. Don't worry. I imagine I'll always support free discourse.
- Learning how to speak about stuff is critical here because it's like,
I'm learning that this is like a minefield of conversations. Because the moment you say like,
even saying freedom of speech is a complicated concept, people will be like, "Oh, we spotted
a communist." They'll say, "There's nothing complicated about freedom. Freedom is freedom,
bro." It is complicated. First of all, if you talk about, there's different definitions of
freedom of speech. If you want to go constitution, if you want to talk about the United States
specifically and what's legal, it's actually not as exciting and not as beautiful as people think
of. - Complicated.
- It's complicated. I think there's ideals behind it that we want to see. What does that actually
materialize itself in the digital world where we're trying to communicate in ways that allows
for difficult conversations and also at the same time doesn't result in the silencing of voices,
not through censorship, but through just assholes being rude.
- Spam. - Spam. So it could be just bots.
- Racism. - Racism.
- Going back to the name of the app, LibreX. - Yes.
- Libre, free. X was support Montu for free exchange. And the free exchange of what?
My purpose was to create as much intercommunication of ideas,
be them repugnant or otherwise as possible. And of course to do that within legal bounds
and to do that without causing anyone to be harassed or doxxed. So to keep things focused
on the ideas, not the people. And then no BS crap stuff. And so to me, the easiest way to
moderate around that, because as you said, figuring out what is hateful and what is hate speech is
really hard, was to say no sweeping statements against core identity groups. And that seems to
work on the whole pretty well to be pretty light touch. - It's hard to do though.
- It's difficult. - Because we like to generalize.
We humans. - It's difficult, but
what it comes down to is be specific. And when you think about what are sweeping statements against
core identity groups, oftentimes these are sort of hackneyed subjects. These are things that have
been broached and we've heard them before. They don't really lead anywhere productive. So it goes
under this principle of be specific in the ideas you're discussing. - So even for like positive
and humorous stuff, you try to avoid generalizations. - Against core identity groups.
- Core identity groups. Sorry, what are core identity groups? - We're talking race, religion.
- Okay. Got it. Even positive stuff? - Well, against, negative.
- Against, sorry, against, against. Okay. - Very, very, we've learned to be very specific.
Very few words, but the community gets it. - Yeah, they get it. I mean, this is the thing,
the trouble with rules is as the community grows, they'll figure out ways to manipulate the rules.
- Absolutely. It's human nature. It's creativity. - Yeah.
- Something beautiful about it, of course. Unlike in- - From an evolutionary perspective, yes.
- Yeah. The fact that people are so creative and so looking to, and because people are genuinely
interested in figuring out these things about social media. And so they'll 100% like see like,
where's the edge? And I mean, part of that's maintaining some level of vagueness in your rule
set, which has its own set of questions and something we could think about. And I'm not
implying I have all the answers, but there is something really interesting about people being
so engaged that they're looking to figure out where are those edges and what does that mean?
What does that edge mean? - Well, so one of the things I'm kind of
thinking about, like from an individual user of Librex or an individual user of the internet,
I think about like that one person that is on Reddit saying hateful stuff or positive stuff,
doesn't matter, or funny stuff. One of the things I think about is the trajectory of that
individual through life and how social media can help that person become the best version of
themselves. I don't mean from like an Orwellian sense, like educate them properly or something.
I just mean like, we're all, I believe we're all fundamentally good. And I also believe we all have
the capacity to do, to create some amazing stuff in this world, whether that's ideas or art or
engineering, all those kinds of things, just to be amazing people. And I kind of think about like,
you know, a lot of social media mechanisms bring out the worst in us. And I try to think like,
in the longterm, how can the social media or how can a website, how can a tool that you create
can make the best, like you take a trajectory that makes you a better, better and better,
and like the best version of yourself. So I think about that, because like,
you know, Twitter can really take you down some dark trajectories. I've seen people just not being
the best version of themselves. Forget the cancel culture and all that kind of stuff. It's just like,
they're not developing intellectually in the way that's going to make the best version of themselves.
I think Reddit, I'm not sure what I think about Reddit yet. Because one positive side is all the
shitposting on Reddit could be just like a release valve for some stress in life. And you almost have
like a parallel life where in your in meat space, you might be actually becoming successful and so
on and growing and so on. But you just need sometimes to be angry at somebody. But I tend to
not think that's possible. I think if you're shitposting, you're probably not spending your
time the best way you could. I don't know. I'm torn on that. But do you think about that with
Librex of creating a trajectory for the Yale, for the Dartmouth, the students to where they grow
intellectually? - One thing that I think about a lot is how do you incentivize positive content
creation? How do you incentivize really intellectual content creation? It's something that,
frankly, I think about every single day. And I think there are ways that,
I mean, one thing that's great about humans is that they can be incentivized. And I think there
are ways that you can incentivize people to make the right kind of content if that's your goal.
- So you think such mechanisms exist for such incentivization?
- I do. I don't want to let the cat out of the bag, so to speak.
- So you have already concrete ideas in your mind?
- I have about three concrete ideas that I'm very, very optimistic about.
- You don't even need to share them. I understand totally. But the fact that you have them,
that's really good. Because I feel like sometimes the downfall of the social media is that there's
literally not even a thinking or a discussion about the incentivization of positive long-term
content creation. I mean, Twitter, I really was excited about this when they said, like,
when Jack has talked about creating healthy conversations.
- Yeah, he does seem to care. I've listened to him. I mean, he has a very particular way of
saying things. But you get the impression that he's someone who actually cares about these things
within the limits of his power. - Yeah. And that's the question,
the limits of the power. LibreX is growing not just in the number of communities, but also in
the way you're incentivizing positive conversations, like coupled with the moderation and
so on. So you think there's a lot of innovation to be had in that area?
- I think there's a tremendous amount. I think when you think about the reasons people post,
fundamentally, people want to make a positive impact on their community to some degree. Now,
there will always be bad actors. And part of the benefit of our moderation structure is that we can
limit some of those bad actors, no body counts, no brigading. At the same time, the more you
incentivize a certain type of behavior, the better it's going to be. And we don't see it as our role
as the platform to force the community in a direction. And frankly, I don't think it would
be good for anyone, the community or the conversations, if we forced a specific type of
conversations, conversation. We just need to make the tools to allow people to be good and to
incentivize good behavior. - Yeah, I believe that. You will not need to censor if you allow people
§05Transcript · 1:18:18–1:39:44
at scale to be good. The good will overpower the assholes. - That's my fundamental belief. I'm
very optimistic about that. - But currently LibreX is small in the sense that it's a small
set of communities that I believe. And you mentioned to me offline that by design, you're
scaling slowly and carefully. So how does LibreX scale? Is it possible? Facebook also started with
a small set of communities that were schools and then now grew to be basically the, if not one of
the largest social networks in the world. Do you see LibreX as potentially scaling to be
beyond even college campuses, but encompassing the whole world? - It's a long timeline.
I'll say this, this gets back to where did Facebook go wrong? Because clearly they did a
lot right. And we can only speculate about what the objectives were of the founders of Facebook.
I'm sure they've said some things, but it's always interesting to know what the mythology is versus
what the truth is of the matter. So perhaps they've been very successful. I mean, they've
taken over the world to some extent. At the same time, the goals of LibreX are to create these
positive communities and these open conversations where people can have real conversation and
connection in their communities in a vulnerable and authentic way. And so to that end, which
I imagine might be different than the goals of a Facebook, for example, one thing that we want to
do is keep things intimate and community-based. So each school is its own community. And perhaps
you could have a slightly broader community. Maybe you could have a, I know the California
system is an obvious one, Pac-10 might be an obvious one, and we can think about that.
But fundamentally the unit of community is your school or your school community. So that's one
difference that I think will help us. The other thing is that we're scaling intentionally,
meaning that when we expand to a school, we have moderators in place. We have moderators who
understand that school's environment in a very personal level, and we're growing responsibly.
We're growing as we're ready, both technologically, but also socially,
as we think we have the tools to preserve the community and to encourage the community to
create the sort of content that we want them to create. - And there's a lot of ways to define
community. So first of all, there's geographic community as well. But the way you're kind of
defining community with Yale and Dartmouth is the email, right? That's what gives you,
there's a power to the email in the sense that that's how you can verify, efficiently verify
yourself with being a single individual in the university. In that same way, you can verify your
employment at a company, for example, like Google, Microsoft, Facebook. Do you see your
potentially taking on those communities? That'd be fascinating, getting like anonymous community
conversations inside Google. - 100% crossed my mind. To some extent, this is something where
I understand the college experience. I understand the need. And I've never worked at Google.
I don't know if they would hire me. Hopefully, maybe as a product manager.
I think if there's a community that needs this product and has that will, which I think,
especially as LibreX continues to grow and expand and change and learn,
because that's what we're doing is we're learning, right? With each community,
it's not just about growing. It's about learning from each of these communities and iterating.
I think it's quite likely there are going to be all sorts of communities that could use this tool
to improve their culture, so to speak. - So forgive me, I'm not actually that knowledgeable
about the history of attempts of building social networks to solve the problem that you're solving.
But I was made aware that there was an app or at least a social network called Yik Yak
that had a similar kind of focus. I think the thing you've spoken about that differs between
LibreX and Yik Yak is that Yik Yak was defined, am I pronouncing it right even? - You're good.
- I'm good. - I met the founder, so I can confirm.
- Okay, you can confirm, cool. That it was constrained to a geographical area versus
like to the actual community and that somehow had fundamental like actual differences in
social dynamics that resulted. But can you speak to the history of Yik Yak? How does LibreX differ?
What lessons have you learned from that? Oh, and I should say that I guess there was controversial
I don't know, I didn't look at the details, but I'm guessing there's a bunch of racism and hate
speech and all that kind of stuff that emerged on Yik Yak. - Absolutely there was.
- Okay, so that's an example of like, okay, here's how it goes wrong when you have anonymity
on college campuses. So how does LibreX going to do better? - Yeah, Yik Yak had a lot of problems,
content problems, but the content problems go deeper than maybe what the press would reveal.
There's a lot to say and part of it is parsing exactly what to talk about when it comes to Yik
Yak. And when you talk about startups, I mean, you know this, you know startups,
and you look at the postmortem, it's almost never what people think it is. And oftentimes these
things are somewhat unknowable. And the degree to which people seeking confirmation bias to
somebody who's seeking closure, look to find a singular attribute that caused the failure.
- It feels like the little details often make all the difference.
- Yes. And I think the details are so little that as humans, we are not capable of parsing
even what they are, but I'll tell you my perspective on it, knowing that I'm also
a human with biases, in this particular case, very significant biases. So I started building
Librex for its own merits. At first I wasn't aware of Yik Yak, but as I started to talk to people
about this platform I was building, I was made aware of Yik Yak and I built it from day one with
a lot of the issues Yik Yak had in mind. So as you said, the one difference between Yik Yak is
the geographical versus community-based aspect. Going along with that, one thing I realized by
researching social media sites is that the majority of the negative content, the content
that's terrible and breaking all the rules is created by really, and the people who are not
reformable, so to speak, the people who are not showing the best part of the human experience.
It's a really small minority, right? I remember I was listening to the founder of 4chan, Moot,
talk about this, how one guy was able to basically destroy large swaths of his community.
That's part of what makes it exciting for that minority is how much power they can have. So if
you're predisposed to think in this way, it's exciting that you can walk into, like I mentioned
the party before, you have a party of a lot of positive people and it feels, especially if you
don't have much power in this world, it feels exceptionally empowering to destroy
the lives of many. And if you think this way, it's a problem. But I'm hopeful that you're right,
that in most cases it's going to be a minority of people. - I think it is, and that's what the
research has showed. And one really powerful thing is that we can really actively control
who comes in and out of our community based on the .edu verification. And we can also control
who's not in our community because we have that lever where each account is associated with .edu.
So that's the first point I would put out there. Second point is controlled expansion, meaning that
we have community moderation. We have this panel that allows the moderators to see all of the
highly downvoted content, all of the reported content, all the flagged content and look through
it and decide what they like and what's appropriate and what's not appropriate. And we ping every
moderator when there's a report. So things are taken down pretty quickly. And we have our
standards and we have, I think above all of that, we have a mission and it's a community-based
mission. Yik Yak was more of a fun app and by its own admission, it was a place where people
could enjoy themselves and could sort of yak. - Yak, yeah. - Yik Yak, you know, chit chat.
We have a bigger purpose than that, frankly. And I think that shows in the people who self-select
to be on that app, to be on LibreX and to be on Yik Yak, respectively. The last thing I'll say is,
Yik Yak was very few characters. It was a Twitter-esque platform. And that doesn't allow
for a tremendous amount of nuance. It doesn't allow for a tremendous amount of conversation.
LibreX is much more long form. And so the kind of posts that you'll get on LibreX can spam pages.
What people are starting to realize is that they can reach a lot more people at a lot more
pertinent of a time, a lot more quickly by posting their thoughts on LibreX than if they
went to their school newspaper. And I think the school newspapers might be a little worried about
that, but more importantly, we're connecting people in this way where long form communication
with nuance that takes into account everything that's happening in the community temporally
is really available at LibreX and, you know, not really communicable in 240 or 480 or whatever
the number of characters the acts were bound to. And then, you know, I could talk about the history
of Yik Yak if you want me to go further. They started, I think they were at 12 schools.
And then spring break hit, people told their friends, look at this app, a thousand schools
signed up and had active communities. They had a problem on their hands. And then the high schools
come on board. - Yeah. I think a lot of the things you said ring true to me, but especially the
vision one, which I do think having a vision in the leadership, having a mission makes all the
difference in the world. That's both for the engineers that are building, like the team that's
building the app, the moderation and users, 'cause they kinda, the mission carries itself
through the behavior of the people on the social network.
As a small tangent, let me ask you something about Parler, but it's less about Parler and more
about AWS. So AWS removed Parler from its platform, you know, for whatever reasons,
doesn't really matter. But the fact that AWS would do this was really, really bothered me
personally, because I saw AWS as the computing infrastructure. And I always thought that part
could not put a finger on its scale. And I don't know what your thoughts are, like,
were you bothered by Parler being removed from AWS? And how does that affect how you think about
the computing infrastructure on which Lubrix is based? - I was bothered not so much by Parler
specifically being taken out of AWS, but more the fact that something that's like a highway,
something that people rely on, that people build on top of, that people assume is gonna be somewhat
position agnostic, like a road that people drive on, is becoming ideologically sort of discriminatory.
I just, and of course, mind you, Amazon can do what it wants, it's a private company,
and I support the rights of private companies. I just, on an ethical and sort of a deep moral level,
I wonder, like, at what point should a company sort of be agnostic in that regard and let
developers build on top of their infrastructure? And where does that responsibility hold?
- Yes, it makes you hope that there's going to be, from a capitalistic sense,
competitors to AWS who say, like, we're not going to put our finger on the scale.
I mean, on the highway is a good sort of example. It's like if a privately owned highway said,
you know, we're no longer going to allow, we're only going to allow electric vehicles.
And a bunch of people in this world would be like, yes, because electric is good for the environment.
And, you know, yes, but then you have to consider the, like, the slippery slope nature of it,
but also, like, the negative impact on the lives of many others and what that means for innovation
and for, like, competition, again, in a capitalistic sense. So there's some nature,
there's some level to this hierarchy of our existence that we should not allow to manipulate
what's built on top of it. It should be truly infrastructure. And it feels like compute
is storage and compute is that layer, like it shouldn't be messed with. I haven't seen anybody
really complain about it, like in terms of government. And I'm not even sure government
is the right mechanism through policy and regulation to step in. Because again, they do
a messy job of fixing things. But I do hope there's competitors to AWS that make AWS and step up.
Because I do think, you know, I'm a fan of AWS, except this.
- Good service.
- It's a good service until this.
- Until, yeah, until they rip out the rug.
- And the point is, it's not that necessarily their decision was a bad one with Parler
in particular. It's that, like, the slippery slope nature of it, but also, it takes the good actors
that are creating amazing products and makes them more fearful. And when you're more fearful,
it's the same reason that anonymity is a tool that you don't create the best thing you could
possibly create. When you're fearful, you don't create. I think we kind of talked about it a
little bit, but I wonder if we can kind of revisit it a little bit. I talked to a guy named Ronald
Sullivan, who's a faculty at Harvard law professor. He was on the legal defense team. He was the
lawyer for Harvey Weinstein and Aaron Hernandez for the double murder case. So he takes on these
really difficult cases of unpopular figures because he believes, like, that's the way you test,
that we believe in the rule of law. But he was, there's a big protest in Harvard
to get him, basically censor him and to get him to no longer be faculty dean,
all those kinds of things. And it was by a minority of students, but, and there was a huge
blowback, obviously, in the public, but also inside Harvard, like, that's not okay. He stands
for the very principles at the founding of Harvard and at the principles of the founding of this
country and the law and so on. But the basic argument is that, was about safe spaces, that
it's unsafe to have somebody who is basically supporting Harvey Weinstein, right? What do you
think about this whole idea of safe spaces on college campuses? Because it feels like
the mission of Librex is pushing back against the idea of safe spaces.
I think safe spaces are fine when they're within people's private lives, within their homes,
within their religious organizations. I think the problem becomes when the institution starts
encouraging or backing safe spaces, because what are people being safe from? And oftentimes it
seems like there's this idea that the harm that's being attempted to be mitigated is the harm of
confronting opinions you disagree with, opinions you might find repugnant. And if this is
conflated with a need for safety, then that's where the idea of liberal arts education sort of dies.
Of course, it's complicated and we still want to have safe intellectual environments.
But the way that I hear the term safe space used today, I think it doesn't really have a place
within the intellectual context. - Yeah, it's funny. I mean, this is why Librex is really
exciting, is it's pushing those difficult conversations. And I'd love to see,
ultimately, there does seem to be an asymmetry of power that results in the concept of safe spaces
and hate speech being redefined in the slippery slope kind of way, where it means basically
anything you want it to mean. And it basically is used to silence people. To silence people,
they're like good, thoughtful experts. - Also, yeah, on that, I would say it has
not just a pragmatic purpose, which is the silencing, but also sort of an ideological
purpose, which is, and a linguistic purpose, which is to conflate words with unsafety and harm and
violence, which is what you kind of see on a cultural linguistic level is happening
all around us right now, is that this idea that words are harm, it's a very dangerous and slippery
concept. I mean, you don't have to slip that far to see why that's a problem. Once we start
making words into violence and we start criminalizing words, we get into some really
authoritarian territory. Things that I think, I mean, myself and my background, I don't know how
much we have to go into it, but things that my ancestors certainly would be worried about.
- What's your background? - I'm a child of Holocaust
survivors and pro-Grom survivors. - Yeah, I mean, me as well,
from different directions. I come from the Soviet Union. So there's, well, like in most of us,
hate and love runs through our blood from our history. You mentioned MIT is being added to
Librex. Has it already been added? - Yes, it was added today.
- Today, okay. So let me ask you, this is exciting because I don't know what your thoughts are about
this, but I'll tell you from my perspective, if you're, and a lot of MIT folks listen to this,
I would love it if you joined Librex. It'd be interesting to explore conversations
on several topics inside MIT, but one of the most moving that hasn't been discussed at all
except in little flourishes here and there is the topic of Jeffrey Epstein.
Now there's been a huge amount of like impact that the connections of various faculty to Jeffrey
Epstein and the various things that have been said had on MIT, but it feels like the difficult
conversation haven't had been had. It's the administration trying to clean up and give a
bunch of BS to try to pretend like, let's just hide this part. Like nothing is broken, nothing
to see here. Here's a bad dude that did some bad things and some faculty that kind of misbehaved a
little bit because they're a little bit clueless. Let's all look the other way. Harvard did this
much better, by the way. They completely, it's almost like people pretend like Harvard didn't
have anything to do with Jeffrey Epstein. But I think I'd be curious to hear what those
conversations are because there's conversations on the topic of like, well, obviously sort of
§06Transcript · 1:39:53–1:58:14
sexual assault and disrespecting women on any kind of level within academia, but just women
in general. That's an important topic to talk about various, many sets of difficult conversations.
And the other topic is funding for research. Like what are we okay taking money from and what are
we not okay taking money from? There's a lot of just interesting, difficult conversations to be
had. I've worked with people who refuse to take money from DOD, Department of Defense, for example,
because in some indirect or direct way, you're funding military, industrial complex, all those
kinds of things. I think with Jeffrey Epstein, it's even more stark, this contrast of like, well,
what is and isn't ethical to take money from? And I just think, forget academia, I think there's just
a lot of interesting, deep human discussions to be had and they haven't been. And there's been
somebody, I don't know if you're familiar with Eric Weinstein, who has been outraged by the fact
that nobody's talking about Jeffrey Epstein. Nobody's having these difficult conversations.
And Eric himself has had a sort of complicated journey through academia in the sense that he's
a really kind of renegade thinker in many kinds of ways. I'm not sure if you know who Eric is
by any chance. - Heard the name.
- Okay. - I actually
checked out Zev. - Zev.
- It was heartening for me to see that I was not the youngest person on this podcast.
- You're the second youngest. - Second youngest.
- That's hilarious. But Eric, he's kind of a renegade thinker. He's a mathematical physicist.
With I believe a PhD at Harvard and he spent some time at MIT and so on. But he speaks to the fact
that sort of there's a culture of conformity and so on. And if you're somebody who's a bit
outside the box, a bit weird in whatever dimension of weird, that makes you actually
kind of interesting that the system kind of wants to make you an outcast, wants to throw you out.
And so he kind of opposes that whole idea. He's the perfect person to have conversations with
in this kind of Librax kind of context of anonymity. Because I'll tell you the few
conversations that came across and they were very quickly silenced. And I'm troubled by it.
I'm not sure what to think of it. There's a few threads inside MIT, like on a mailing list,
discussing Marvin Minsky. I don't know if you know who that is. He's an AI researcher. He's
a seminal figure in AI before your time, but one of the most important people in art, in the history
of artificial intelligence. And there was a discussion on a thread that involved
the interaction between Marvin Minsky and Jeffrey Epstein. That conversation was quickly shut down.
One person was pushed out of MIT, Richard Stallman, who's one of the key figures in the,
because of that, because he wanted some clarity about the situation, but he also miss, he spoke
like we mentioned earlier without grace, right? But he was quickly punished by the administration
because of a few people protesting. And just that conversation,
I guess what bothered me most is it didn't continue. It didn't expand. There was no like
complexity. And there was a hunger that was clear behind that conversation, especially
sort of for me, I'd like to understand Marvin Minsky was one of the reasons I wanted to come
to MIT. He's passed away, but he's one of the key figures in the field that I deeply care about,
artificial intelligence. And I thought that his name was dragged through the mud,
through that situation and without ever being like resolved. And so it's unclear to me, like,
what am I supposed to think about all this? And the only way to come to a conclusion there is to
keep talking. It's like the thing we started this conversation with about truth is like,
it's conversation. So in that sense, I'd love if people on Librex, perhaps in other places,
but it seems like Librex is a nice platform to discuss Marvin Minsky, to discuss Jeffrey Epstein,
to learn from it, to grow from it, to see how we can make MIT better. As I'm still one of the
people, I've always dreamed of being at MIT. It was a dream come true in many ways. And I still
believe that MIT is one of the most special places in this world, like many other universities,
universities in general is truly special, man. It hurts my heart when people speak
poorly of academia. I understand what they mean. They're very correct, but there is much more,
in my opinion, that's beautiful about academia and that's broken. I mean, I don't know if you
have something to comment. It doesn't necessarily need to be about Jeffrey Epstein, but there's
these difficult things that come up that test the academic community, right? That it feels like
conversation is the only way to resolve it. - I think people have a natural need for closure.
And it's not just, I'm not as plugged into what academics are talking about as you would be, Lex,
but I even- - Kids these days, no respect for Minsky.
- Exactly. I mean, especially in the AI community, I'm not necessarily a programmer,
but what I will say is that people come to LibreX and we always see a huge spike in users whenever
there's a tragedy on campus or something where people need closure. Recently, there was a suicide
just the other day on Yale's campus and people were just coming to pay respects and to say,
"Rest in peace," and speak also about what might've led to an environment where people
are drawn to these terrible results. - So just having a conversation is important there.
'Cause it brings closure. - People need the space,
especially when no one wants to go out and put their head above, be the longest blade of grass
on that one because of the stigma. People need to be able to speak.
- Yeah, that fear really bothers me, the fear that silences people,
like where they self-censor, where they self-silence. Well, you've created an amazing
place. I'm kind of interested in your struggle and your journey of creating positive
incentives because it's a problem in a very different domain that I'm also interested in.
So I love robotics, I love human-robot interaction. And so I believe that most people are good and we
can bring out the best in human nature. Social networks is a very tricky space to do that in.
So I'm glad you're taking on the problem and I'm glad you have the mission that you do.
I hope you succeed. But you mentioned offline that you used to be into chess.
Tell me about your journey through chess. - Sure. I was a very competitive tournament
player growing up till about like 13. For the chess fans, I got to around 2000
USCF. So I was a competitive player, especially my age group. And that actually led me to poker.
I was playing a tournament and what happens is when you're like a very strong 13-year-old and
you're playing locally, if you want a good match, you're going to end up playing a lot of adults.
And I ended up playing this mid-40s guy who we played a really strong game. He actually beat me.
I still remember the game and think, "Oh, I could have actually played that move instead of that
one." But after the game, we had a post-mortem. It was this me, I think I was 13 at the time,
and this 40-year-old hanging over this chess board and looking over the moves. And even at my age,
it occurred to me that this guy was absolutely brilliant. And after the post-mortem, not only
by the way in chess, but just in the way he articulates his thoughts as some people are,
after the post-mortem, I went and looked him up online and I found out that he was a World Series
of Poker champion. - Who is it? - His name is Bill Chen. - Oh, wow. - And I haven't really kept up
with him except one time there was another chess tournament when I was around 14. And I followed
him into an elevator as he was leaving the chess hall, pretending that I was going to go up just
because I just wanted to talk to him. And I suggested a sequel or some changes that I thought
he should make for his book. And he was like, "Actually, I was thinking of doing the same thing,"
which was incredibly validating to my 14-year-old or 15-year-old self. But I really haven't kept up
with him. So it's a shout out to him. And then he wrote a book called "The Mathematics of Poker"
that I started reading. And that, first of all, kickstarted my interest in game theory. And second
of all, in poker. So I started from chess and then poker. And I started with Bitcoin poker and
had a lot of success with that. Met a lot of amazing friends. Learned a ton about, I mean,
I think about entrepreneurship as well as taking risks, reasonable risks, positive expected value
risks. And also just growing as a person and mathematician. - Did you say Bitcoin poker?
- Yeah. - What's Bitcoin poker?
- So you have to understand I was 14 years old, right? - Yes.
- So how is a 14-year-old with wonderful parents who care about him and probably don't want him
playing poker going to start playing poker? Because I wanted the challenge. I love the
challenge. I love the competition. And I realized the answer is probably Bitcoin,
because the implications of that. And they had these free roll tournaments, which for those
of you who don't know what free rolls are, there's these promotional tournaments that
sites put on where they'll put like a few dollars in and then thousands of people sign up and the
winners get like a dollar. And I started there and I worked my way up. - That's amazing. What's
your sense about from that time to today of the growth of the cryptocurrency community? I'm
actually having like four or five conversation with Bitcoin proponents, Bitcoin maximists,
and like all these, I'm just having all these cryptocurrency conversations currently,
because there's so many brilliant, like technically brilliant, but also financially
and philosophically brilliant people in those communities. It's fascinating with the explosion
of impact. And also if you look into the future, the possible revolutionary impact
on society in general. But what's your sense about this whole growth of Bitcoin?
- I'm definitely less knowledgeable on the currency. Again, like programming, it was a means
to an end. - Yes, got it.
- What I will say is that there was this amazing community that grew out of it, and you'd have
people who were willing to stake me or have me be their horse and they're my backer for having
never met me for literally full Bitcoin tournaments, like full Bitcoin entry fee tournaments.
And I get a percentage of the profits and they get a percentage. And to have that level of community
for that degree of money, I mean, it gives you hope about the potential for humans to
act in mutual best interest with a degree of trust.
- Yeah, there's a really fascinating, strong community there. But speaking of like bringing
out the best of human nature, it's a community that's currently struggling a little bit
in terms of their ability to communicate in a positive, inspiring way. Like the Bitcoin folks,
and we talk about this a lot, I honestly think they have a lot of love in their hearts and minds,
but they just kind of naturally, because the world has been like institutions and the centralized
powers have been sort of mocking and fighting them for many years that they've become sort of
worn down and cynical. And so they tend to be a little bit more aggressive and negative on the
internet in the way they communicate, especially on Twitter. And it's just created this whole
community of basically being derisive and mocking and trolling and all this kind of stuff. But
people are trying to, as the Bitcoin community grows, as the cryptocurrency community grows,
they're trying to revolutionize that aspect too. So they're trying to find the positive core and
grow in that way. So it's fascinating, 'cause I think all of us are trying to find the positive
aspects of ourselves and trying to learn how to communicate in a positive way online. It's like
the internet hasn't been around, social networks haven't been around that long. We're trying to
figure this thing out. Let me ask you the ridiculous question. I don't know if you have an
answer, but who is the greatest chess player of all time in your view? So since you like chess,
you talk about- - That's on how you
define it. But if you're talking about raw skill, like if you put everyone across time into a
tournament together, Carlson would win. I don't think that's particularly controversial.
- Oh, you mean like with the same exact skill level?
- Exactly. - Magnus Carlson, okay.
- Now, if you talk about political importance, I think Bobby Fischer is, he's the only one that
people still, you go to someone on the street, they know Bobby Fischer because of what he
represented, right? - Who do you think is more famous
on the street, Garry Kasparov or Bobby Fischer? - Bobby, in America, Bobby Fischer.
- You think so? - Yes.
- That's interesting. I think we're gonna have to put that to the test.
- Yeah, maybe it's more reflective of the community that I was a part of, but yeah.
- Oh, so in the community you were part of, like, Young Minds, playing chess, Bobby Fischer
was a superstar in terms of the roots. - Yeah, I think so, because he's American
and he stood up against the big bad Russians at the time and unfortunately he had a very bad
downfall. But for our geopolitical situation, he meant a lot. And then if you talk about,
compared to contemporaries, actually, I would say Paul Morphy was a bit of a throwback.
He's one of those geniuses that was just head and shoulders above everyone else.
- Is there somebody that inspired your own play, like, as a Young Mind?
- Yeah, I really liked Mikhail Tal. - So, like, you see, you were,
I think he was very aggressive, right? - Yeah, very tactical.
Which is funny, 'cause I found that I was better at, like, sort of slow methodical play
than quick tactics. But I just, I mean, there's something beautiful about the creativity.
And that's something I always latched onto, was being a creative player, being a creative person.
I mean, chess doesn't really reward creativity as much as a lot of other things, especially
entrepreneurial pursuits. Which I think is part of the reason why I sort of grew out of it. But
I always was attracted to the creativity that I did see in chess.
- So let me ask the flip, the other, 'cause you said poker, is there somebody that stands
out to you as could be the greatest poker player of all time? Like, who do you admire in that role?
- That's a more controversial one, because these chess players are such, like, first of all,
there's more of an objective standard. And second of all, there's, like, they're, like, almost,
like, cultural figures to me. Whereas poker players are more, like, live, living. They feel
more, like, they feel more accessible. - But they also have, like, personalities.
- Yeah. - Like, poker have, like, Phil Ivey
as a personality. - They have vices.
- They have vices, they have quirks, they have humor. Like, I guess we've seen videos of them.
- Yeah. - Because it's such a recent
development. - I'll say one person who I
admire so much, and, like, if I could, like, have a dinner list of people that I want to have dinner
with, like, maybe it'll happen now, actually. (both laugh)
I would love to have dinner with him. Phil Galfond.
- Oh, wow. - Who I don't, most people
probably won't know. - Yeah.
- But, on this podcast, but the way, first of all, he democratized poker learning in, like,
the mathematical nitty-gritty, how do you get good at poker type sense, to the entire world,
in, like, an unprecedented way. He was, he gave, he had this gift that he had learned and distilled
by working with some of the greatest poker minds, and he just democratized it through his website.
And I learned a ton from him. And not only that, but you just listen to him think, and it's almost
like a philosophical meditation, the way that he breaks things down and thinks about these different
elements and has such a holistic thought process. It's like watching a genius work. And, you know,
he's also just a nice, fun, sociable guy that, like, you can imagine being at your dinner table.
- Yeah. - So, all that combined.
- Which is not true for a lot of poker players, right? A lot of them are dark souls.
- To say the least, yes. - I really like the, what is he, Canadian,
Daniel Negrano. - He's also a nice guy.
- He's also a nice guy, but he's also somebody who's able to express his thoughts about poker
really well, but also in an entertaining way. He seems to be able to predict cards
better than anybody I've ever seen. Like, what-- - Did you watch the challenge?
- Which challenge? - He lost, like, a million dollars
recently to Doug Polk. He lost a million dollars to Doug Polk, Heads Up Online. It's really
interesting. - Yeah, it's awesome to watch these guys
work. So, I know you're 21? - 21.
- 21. So, asking you for advice is a little bit funny, but at the same time, not, because you've
§07Transcript · 1:58:23–2:17:14
created a social network. You've created a startup from nothing. As we talked about earlier,
like, without knowing how to program, you've programmed. I mean, you've taken this whole
journey that a lot of people, I think, would be really inspired by. So, given that, and given
the fact that 20 years from now, you'll probably laugh at the advice you're gonna give now.
- Absolutely, I hope so. If I don't laugh at the advice I give now, something went desperately
wrong, right? - Yeah. So, do you have advice for people
that wanna follow in your footsteps and create a startup, whether it's in the software app
domain or whether it's anything else? - So, I'll speak specifically about social
media apps. - Yes.
- Try to keep it as narrow as possible so I can laugh as little as possible when I'm 41.
And what I would say is that if you're like a 21, 22-year-old who's looking at me and being like,
"I wanna do something like this," what I would say is you probably know better than just about
anyone. And if you have a feeling in yourself that this is something that I have to do,
and this is something I could imagine myself doing for the next 10 years, because if you're
successful, you are gonna have to do it for the next 10 years. And through the ups and the downs,
through the amazing interviews with Lex and through the not-so-amazing articles you might
have with other people, right? And you're gonna have to ride those highs and lows, and you have
to believe in what you're doing. But if you have that feeling, what I would say is listen to as
few people as possible, because people are experts in domains, but when it comes to what's hot and
what makes sense in a social context, you are the authority as a young person who's going through
these things and living in your milieu. And I've talked to, at this point, so many experts,
experts, so many investors, VCs. You'd be amazed at the advice I've gotten.
>> So there's a minefield of bad advice?
>> That's the hardest part, I think, for young people. And it's the thing,
when people, like, I help Yellies all the time who ask, like, I never turn down when a founder
asks me to have a conversation, I never turn it down. I'm always there for them. And the number
one thing I worry about is that at Yale, we're taught implicitly and explicitly that you listen
to the adult in the room, you listen to the person with the highest pay grade. And it's devastating,
'cause that's how innovation dies. And, you know...
>> Yeah, it's intimidating, too. You talk to VC who probably made--
>> Is worth a billion dollars.
>> Yeah, billion dollars, and they're going to tell you, you know, all the successful startups
they helped fund, or even just a successful business owner is going to tell you some advice.
And it's hard psychologically to think that they might be wrong. Yeah, but you're saying that's
the only way you succeed is just listen to yourself.
>> It's the only way you can succeed, 'cause if they knew what they were doing,
they would have built it themselves. And what's especially hard is people go, "Oh, of course,
you know, I'll listen to people's, I'll listen to their advice, but I'll know why it's wrong.
And then I'll do my own thing." And that sounds greatly abstract, but sometimes you can't always
even put your finger on why they're wrong. And I think to have the conviction to say,
"You're wrong, and I can't tell you why, but I still think I'm right." It's a rare thing,
especially at like, it's very counterintuitive. And you might even say it's hubris or arrogant,
but I think it's necessary, 'cause a lot of these things are, they're not things that you can really
put into words until you see them in action. Like a lot of them are kind of happy accidents.
>> Yeah, it's been tough for me, like as a person who, like I'm very empathetic, so when people
tell me stuff, I kind of want to understand them. And it's been a painful process, especially people
close to me. Basically everything I've done, especially in the recent few years, a lot of
people close to me said not to do. And like my parents too, that's been a hard one, is to basically
acknowledge to myself that you don't know, like you don't, that everything you're going to say
by way of advice for me is not going to be helpful. Like I love my parents very much,
but like, they're just like, they don't get it. And as you put it beautifully,
it's very difficult to put your finger on exactly why, because a lot of advice sounds reasonable.
>> That's the worst kind. If it sounds really good, that just means it's an earworm. Like that's like
a song that you hear on the radio and then you're like, you're humming it in the car and it's like,
it's the same thing. The better it sounds, the more skeptical.
>> Yeah. Reason is a bad drug. Like you should be very careful, because like,
you know, the things that seem impossible, every major innovation, every major business
seems impossible at birth. But even not just the impossible things, I think, you know,
you look at like love, for example, it's very easy to give advice to sort of point out all the ways
it can go wrong, or marriage, all the divorces that people go through, all the pain of years
that you go through, the divorce, like the system of marriage, the marriage industrial complex,
all the money that's wasted, all those kinds of things. But that advice is useless when you're
in love. The point is to just pat the person on the back and say, go get them kid. Like,
what is it? Good Will Hunting, I went to see about a girl.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> That's a good movie.
>> I love that movie.
>> But yeah, that's, that took me a long time to figure out. I'm still trying to fight through it,
but especially when you're young, that's hard. But nothing in life is worth accomplishing is easy.
>> But I think it's really interesting you make that connection between like startup advice
and like your parents, because it's the exact same sort of mechanism, where when you're young,
your parents are usually like, right, right? And the experts are usually right. And you know,
if you listen to them, and you follow their orders, you're going to go to a school like Yale.
>> Yeah.
>> And at a certain point, stops making sense. I've seen my friends at Yale go down paths,
because they just continued listening to their parents that I know in their heart of hearts
is not the right path for them.
>> Yeah, you know what? That's how I see the education system. The whole point is to guide
you to a certain point in your life, and everybody's point is different. And your task is
to at that point, to have a personal revolution and create your own path.
>> But no one tells you that.
>> Nobody tells you that, because they want you to keep following the same path as they're leading
you towards. Like they're not going to say your whole job is to eventually rebel.
>> Yeah.
>> That's how rebellion works. You're not supposed to be told, but that is the task.
They can take you just like you said, and depending who you are, they can take you really
far. But at a certain point, you have to rebel. That could be getting a PhD, that could be in
your undergrad, that could be high school.
>> Yeah, it could be any point. One thing that I think played a pretty pivotal role,
and I've never really mentioned this, he might not even know the person about to tell you about,
in sort of me actually going out and making Librex, was that I was taking this graduate
level math class, I think my sophomore year. And I met this PhD student who was also in it,
and had considerable citations and also startup experience. And I think he actually ended up
being the CTO of a unicorn later on. I've sort of lost touch with him, but we're still Facebook
friends, as it is in the 21st century. And I was in a class and I was telling him, "I really want
to make this thing, but I have no technical background." And this guy's a computer genius,
he worked under Dan Spielman at Yale. So he's a good guy, right? And we were doing some math
together. We were doing something on discrepancy, for those of you who really care about math,
so combinatorics. And he just turns to me, he's like, "I think you could do it." I'm like,
"What do you mean, you think I could do it?" He's like, "I think you could do it." And I was like,
"Really?" But I respected this guy so much. His name was Young Duck. Shout out to Young Duck.
I respected this guy so much that I was like, "If Young Duck says I can do it, and Young Duck is a
legit genius, and he knows, and he knows me." Because we were in two classes together, and we'd
spend a lot of time together. If he thinks I can do it, then who am I to say I can't do it?
Yeah, that's a lesson for mentorship.
By the way, he has no idea, probably.
Well, and he might not even remember that interaction, which is funny. But the point is
that when a crazy young kid comes up to you with a crazy dream, every once in a while,
you should just pat him on the back and say, "I believe in you." You can do it. If they look up to
you, that means your words have power. And if you say, "No, no, come on, be reasonable. Finish your
schoolwork," kind of thing, that's unreasonable to take that leap. "No, just finish your education,"
blah, blah, blah. Whatever the reasonable advice is, every once in a while, maybe often as a
mentor, you should say, "Go see about a girl in California," or whatever the equivalent is.
That was my moment. That was my Goodwill Hunting moment.
That's your Goodwill Hunting moment. Man, I miss Robin Williams. That was a special guy.
People love it when I ask about book recommendations in general. Of course,
your journey is just beginning, but is there something that jumps out to you,
technical, fiction, philosophical, sci-fi, coloring books, blog posts you read somewhere
that had an impact on your life?
Video games.
Video games that you recommend to others. Minecraft, manual.
Manga.
I mean, yeah, video. You could mention video games too, if there's something that jumps out to you
that just had an impact.
I guess I'll say I really like the book The War of Art, which is a book about creative resistance
and the creative struggle and what it means to be creative. Part of what I see in this conversation
and what you're doing, Lex, is so much of The War of Art's idea is that you just keep writing
and writing and writing until you get to the new crap. You just roll with it, right? That's sort
of what happens when you have three-hour conversations with people is you can only have
so much scripted or societally constructed stuff until you get to the real you.
And you have to show up. I mean, that book is kind of painful.
It's really painful. And it's not something I would recommend for every part of it,
but for what it did in my life at the time. It also kind of normalized, I don't know,
part of my coming-of-age story is part of it's about realizing that I'm a creative person
and person who needs to create. That's sort of a God-given thing, I think, for a lot of people,
but it's something that I don't really feel like I can live without. And part of it was realizing
that even within some of these more rigid structures, it's okay that I don't sort of
fit in with them. And to hear about the struggles of other creatives was something for my own
self-esteem and my own growing up that was really important to me. So I don't think the book itself
might be perfect, but for what it did for my life, it was really impactful.
Yeah, I think exactly. The words may not be exactly right by way of advice, but I think
the journey that a lot of creatives take by reading that book is kind of profound. He also
has another one called "Turning Pro," I think. I mean, he in general espouses taking it seriously.
If you have a creative mind and you want to create something special in this world,
go do it. Don't show up and look at the blank page.
And so many people would tell me, would encourage me either blatantly or through implicit means
to basically take the Apolesis seriously. It's a good signal, by the way.
It's a good signal because my really close friends, the ones who have always supported me,
they never said that because they got it. They understood that that was my path. And they might
be skeptical. They might be like, I mean, one of my friends I remember told me, "I was always
taken aback about why you were so certain this would work out." And he's like, "I finally got
it once I saw it popping off, but before that I just didn't get it." But he still supported me.
And I think it's a really good signal. And actually, just the fact of going through this
process has made me socially feel so much more connected. And I've somewhat consolidated my
social life to some degree, but it's so much more vulnerable connected. And that's part of
the creative process. I have to thank for that, I think. There's something that's unstoppable about
the creative mind. It's right there, that fire. And I guess part of the thing that you're supposed
to do is let that fire burn in whichever direction. - And it's gonna hurt.
- It's gonna hurt. Fire will hurt. But on the topic of video games, you mentioned Stanley
Parable offline. You said you play some video games. Is there a video game that you especially
love that you recommend I play, for example? - Yeah, I'll mention it's actually freely
in keeping with what we've been talking about. It's The Beginner's Guide, which is what I...
It was made by the same guy, Davey Rendon, who made The Stanley Parable, which I briefly saw
you... I just clicked the video and then I went to sleep. It was like 2 a.m. But I briefly saw
that you were looking at. And it's a game that is better treated as art. And I think...
I won't claim to understand the creator, 'cause that would be a cardinal sin
to me as a creative person. But it gets to the heart of a lot of the things that we've been
talking about, which is the creative mind. The game can be interpreted in a lot of ways,
in a feminist way. It could be interpreted as a story of friends. It could be interpreted
as the story of critics versus a creative. The way I like to interpret it, and I don't want to
give away too much, is the story of the creative part of your mind that creates just for the sake
of creating. Meaning the part that creates for no rhyme or reason or clear meaning. It's almost
ethereal. Versus the part that's... You could call it the editor. You could call it the pragmatist.
You could call it the necessary force of ego in our lives. We can't totally be egoless, right?
But we need to be egoless to be creative. And how that sort of internal censure... What role does
it play? And how do we allow our creative minds to be creative? And yet, how do we still become
useful? Because... And it's funny that a video game could have this in.
It's a fascinating tension, which reminds me about the ridiculous question I every once in a while
ask about meaning and death. So this whole ride ends. You're at the beginning of the ride,
but it could end any day, actually. That's kind of the way human life works. You could die today,
you can die tomorrow. Do you think about your own mortality? Do you think about death?
Do you meditate on it? And in that context, as the creative, but a pragmatist too,
as running a startup, what do you think is the meaning of this whole thing?
Yeah, so, on mortality, right? About three years ago, four years ago now,
I was excited to go to Yale. I was playing six hours of squash a day, which squash is a sport I
love so much. And I was really getting a lot better. And I was even thinking I could maybe
walk onto the Yale team. And I woke up one day, I felt really, really sick. I went and I decided
not to go to squash that day. And I know, I wanted to, I almost did. And you'll see how this story
turns out. You'll decide if I made the right choice. I decided not to go to squash today.
And I decided to get my driver's license, or I had to get my driver's license, because I wanted to
get a driver's license before I, it's just how young I am, before I went off to college, because
otherwise I might never get it. And I'm going back and I successfully got my driver's license,
brahsham. And I go back to my house and I decided I don't want to drive back because I just feel so
sick. Things are spinning. I have the worst headache. I come home, I run back right into my
bed and feeling really sick to the point where I even asked my mom, who is a doctor, I'm like,
should I go to the hospital? And she's like, you can just wait it out. I'm sure it'll get better.
- I like your mom.
- Yeah. And then, you know, and then at one point I look at my arms and they're like
covered in this like red splotchy stuff. Yeah. And I'm like, well, I think, and she's like,
yeah, we have to go. And so I go there and they're like, you have scarlet fever. And
§08Transcript · 2:17:19–2:26:34
they're like, there's nothing we can do. You should probably just go back home. So I go back home,
six hours later, I wake up in the morning. They'd let me out at like 3 AM. They let me,
I come home in the morning and I feel this, like a spear through my chest.
And I never felt anything like it. And I was, it was very disconcerting when you have a,
cause we're all used to different sorts of pain. Right. And that was the sort of pain I never felt
before. I suppose as an athlete, you're used to like, you know, pain. So I told my parents and
immediately we hopped back in the car, we'd go up to the same hospital I was at six hours ago.
And they initially didn't want to let me in. And I was like, I have chest pain. They're like, oh,
come in. Cause they're like, you're a healthy guy. Wait your turn. And I'm like, no, you don't
understand. I have like a pain in my chest. And then they let me in. They start doing tests on me.
They like put something like in my back, which is really scary. It's a huge needle. And I'm smiling
because it's like one of the ways I reduce stress, I guess, or deal with this sort of thing and make
light of it. But like, no, that, you know, it's definitely very scary in the moment, shocking and
scary. And they go and they do a bunch of tests and they determined that a virus like attacked my
heart and I had myocarditis and pericarditis. And they said I had maybe 25 to 35% chance at
one point of dying. And so I'm sitting in my, they admit me into the hospital. I'm in my bed for about
three weeks. And I'm just, I'm just standing there. And I had this moment also that I remember
very specifically where I was in so much pain that like I was crying, not out of like emotional
standpoint, but actually just purely out of the pain itself. Like I could feel my heart in my
chest. And when I leaned back, I felt it touch my rib cage and feel horrible. So I couldn't go to
sleep and lean back. I had to lean forward all throughout the night. Right. And I'm feeling my,
and I'm feeling my chest. I'm feeling this terrible pain in my chest. I'm crying
unstoppably. And I mean, also, maybe I should mention that at the time I was someone who'd like
refused to take in anything into my body that wasn't natural. And so a lot of the time I tried
to be unmedicated. Eventually I didn't allow them to add a little medication to my body,
but there's just so much uncertainty and pain. And the first time I had to come to terms with
mortality. First of all, I think you still should have gone play squash. I mean, come on. I mean,
yeah. I thought you were serious about this. You still carry that with you sort of.
There is power to realizing the ride can end. Right. Very suddenly. Very suddenly. Yeah.
And painfully. And, you know, it has pragmatic application to like what you,
to trajectories you take through life. Right. Something else that is worth noting is that I,
for the next year, couldn't walk to my classes. So I get to Yale, they put me in a medical single
alone, and I have to get shuttled to all my classes. I have to ask, I had to ask a few
professors to even move classes so I could actually get there. I can't move my book. I
can't lift my book bags. I can't, I can't walk upstairs. I spent like 12 hours a day in my dorm
room, just like staring at the walls and more so, and more than that, all this, like you, I got to
watch my body, like deteriorate and like the muscle like fall off of it. Cause I was, I was
taking these pills and they're kind of catabolic. And for an 18 year old, I mean, I think every 18
year old has feelings about their body, man or woman. And, you know, just seeing this, it's like
you're watching sort of death transpire. And you're also very fatigued because your heart's not at
peak condition and you're thinking about the future. And a lot of the things you enjoy have
kind of been stripped away from you. And I took up a meditation practice, like started with like
five minutes a day. At my peak, I was at like 40 minutes a day, kept it up consistently for about
two years. And I started thinking about like, what do I want to do? And like, what do I care about?
And to get to your point, I think you're asking like, how does this carry forward, right? I think
I realized that, you know, there's an end and I realized that there are things I believe
and things that I believe that might not be so overtly popular, but that I truly think make
the world a better place. And in spite of, and in basically if my conditions provided,
I wanted to make something that, I wanted to do something that would make me feel sort of
whole in that way. - Yeah. I mean, that's an amazing journey to take that time and to come
out on the other end. Now, man, that's amazing. I did not realize like that there was a long-term
struggle. I think that's in the end, if you do succeed, we'll have a profound positive impact
because struggle is ultimately like humbling, but also empowering. So I'm glad to see that.
But from the perspective of the creative, the other ridiculous question about meaning,
do you think about this kind of stuff? Is that the meaning of life for you, the meaning of life for
us descendants of apes in general? - The first thing I'd like to say is that I think part of
like when we talk about the meaning of life, part of it is the fact that we get to struggle with
this question and we get to do it together for a long time. And sometimes I think it's accepting
that there's no meaning at all. And sometimes I think it's accepting that, or even just parsing
the phrase and thinking about the meaning of life. I sometimes, I'm look, I'm very young.
Again, I hope that anything I say now is going to be very different in the future because I think
meaning, life has so many meanings that it'll be crazy to see what I think in 20 years about
the meaning of life. - Yeah, rise from the future, cut them some slack. - Please do. Perspective,
perspective, perspective. Having said that, I think part of what brings meaning to my life
is things like this, where we think about these things with people who are really, really,
really on the ball and we get to connect with these people. That certainly brings meaning to
my life, human connection. - Yeah, this conversation is just another like echo of the thing you're
trying to create in the digital space, right? - Yes. - That's the same kind of magic. From what
I understand about what you're trying to create is the same reason I fell in love with the long
form podcast thing, like as a fan, that's why I listen to long form podcasts, is there's something
deeply human and genuine about the interchange through the voice. But I do think that connection
through text can be even more powerful. Like I think about letters, I still write letters to
Russia, there's something powerful in letters. When you put a lot of yourself in the words you say,
in the words you write, that's powerful. You can really communicate, not just the actual semantic
meaning of the words, but like a lot of who you are through those words and create real connections.
So I hope you succeed there. And listen, Ryan, I think this was an incredible conversation. I'm
glad that people like you are fighting the good fight for bringing out the best in human nature
in the digital space. I think that's a battleground where the good will win, like love will win. And
I'm glad you're creating technology that does just that. So thank you so much for wasting all your
time, for coming down. I can't wait to see what you do in the future. Thanks for talking today.
- Thank you for having me. - Bam.
- How many finger guns have you gotten at the end of the podcast?
- Zero. - Two now.
- Thanks for listening to this conversation with Ryan Schiller, and thank you to all our sponsors,
Allform, Magic Spoon, BetterHelp, and Brave. Click their links to support this podcast.
And now let me leave you with some words from George Washington on March 15th, 1783.
"If freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.
[END]
George Washington, "Freedom of Speech" - March 15, 1783.