Chris Duffin: The Mad Scientist of Strength
嘉宾：Chris Duffin
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The following is a conversation with Chris Duffin,
the mad scientist of strength.
He's one of the strongest people in the world,
but is also an engineer of some of the most
innovative strength equipment I've ever seen.
Check out his company Kabuki Strength.
He's the only person who squatted and deadlifted
1,000 pounds for multiple reps
and achieved many other amazing feats of strength.
He has lived one hell of a life of hardship and triumph
as he writes about in his book called
"The Ego and the Dragon."
Quick mention of our sponsors,
Headspace, Magic Spoon, Sun Basket, and Ladder.
Check them out in the description to support this podcast.
As a side note, let me say that I was always
a fan of strength, both powerlifting
and Olympic weightlifting, both as a fan and practitioner.
Mostly I'm a fan of people who are willing
to put in years of hard work towards finding out
what the limits of their body is
and then smashing past those limits.
People like Chris Duffin or on the Olympic weightlifting
side, people like Dmitry Klokov.
That guy's great.
This is why I love watching the Olympics,
both the heartbreaks and the triumphs.
They all reveal the incredible heights
that the human mind and the human body can reach.
This is the Lex Friedman Podcast
and here is my conversation with Chris Duffin.
You've been a part of several incredible feats of strength.
Which was the hardest or maybe one you're most proud of?
- Definitely the one I'm most proud of
is that journey for the grand goals.
It was like a five-year scope that I chased this.
And so when you think about training,
it took more than five years, obviously.
By that point, I'd been training for over 25 years.
But it makes me proud.
I mean, there was three distinct things
that I wanted to accomplish out of this.
So it was really thought out.
And this was kind of my exit from being a competitive lifter
and basically saying, hey, I'm gonna be an Instagram lifter
and an exhibition lifter or whatever.
I've done this for 16 years.
I was number one in the world for like eight years straight,
all-time world records.
And I'm like, I'm not gonna do that anymore.
What I wanna do is just something deep down to me
that is really important.
And there's three things that we're driving
this and this is a five-year journey
that I went through to do this.
I really wanted to showcase that you could do something
that is well beyond the scope
of what people think is humanly possible.
So just this inspiration thing, this grand over the top,
like if you set your mind to a single-minded goal,
you can go so much further.
And I didn't even say what the goal was up front
because it was so far out there,
I would have been laughed at.
I think big goals should be kept pretty damn close
to start with for that reason too.
And then the second piece was to walk the walk,
to show the principles of what I believed in
around human movement,
the ability to manage and control the spinal mechanics
and the output that can have on the body.
And so I wanted to take the two most basic movements
that every able-bodied person should be able to do.
So fundamental movement patterns, the squat,
which is like in the developmental approach
is around nine months as a baby
from a developmental kinesiology standpoint
and a really basic pattern
that every able-bodied person should be able to master.
The other one being the hip hinge,
being able to pick something up off the ground, a deadlift.
And I wanted to do those two, not just one,
because I wanted to show the principles
that I wasn't built for one.
I wasn't a specialist because of my lever links,
torso links, all that, any outliers,
because nobody had ever done a thousand pound squat.
So this is it, and a thousand pound deadlift.
It was outside of the scope of what anybody's,
there's like half a dozen people that have done one
or the other, but nobody's ever done both.
And I wanted to do something unique.
I wanted to do them, not only do it,
but do them for reps to leave literally
no question out there.
And there's no competition for that.
So it was, this is what I'm gonna go do.
And to pull it off, I had some past issues
with my elbows and stuff that I couldn't work around.
So I had to wear straps, which was another reason
I couldn't do it in the competition setting.
So the first year I worked up
and I did a thousand and two pound deadlift.
We plates were weighed afterwards.
It was a couple, a little bit over,
and I did it for almost three reps.
And that still stands as a Guinness world record.
Just the one rep does,
is the most weight ever sumo deadlifted.
And one other person has deadlifted a thousand
for reps at this point, and that was Thor Bjornsson
from Game of Thrones.
He's done a thousand for a double as well.
So then the next four years,
and I did a bunch of feats of strength on the way,
but it was all about building that axial loading capacity,
the strength that, 'cause now I'm moving the weight
from my hands up to my shoulders.
And so to do it for reps is like so much harder
than a single, like five to 10 seconds
versus 30 plus seconds to be able to buffer
and manage all that with that kind of load is just crazy.
- It's literally about the duration
that your body is carrying the load.
- Yeah, that's a big part of it.
Yeah, because you have to,
you're using the resource of the diaphragm
for stabilization.
And so it's also responsible for respiration
and all this other stuff.
So even when you're not squatting,
you've got to be handling those loads.
- Just holding that weight is fascinating.
It's like, it's fascinating that the human body can do that,
can maintain that structure,
just everything working together,
that the biology, the skeletal structure,
the musculature on top of that can hold the weight.
It's fascinating to watch.
- Everything is very intentful about positioning
and how you're creating pressure and all this sort of stuff,
especially for me.
So when I mentioned that half a dozen people have squatted it
and half a dozen people have deadlifted it,
you understand those people all weigh 380 to 440 pounds.
I weighed 265 to 285,
depending on where I was between the two.
So there's that as well, right?
So big, big difference.
And over the course of that,
I did a lot of other feats of strength
that fit in that capacity and we can skip over those,
but that was hugely invested as far as, you know,
what I put into being able to accomplish that.
'Cause it's over the top,
which means the other stuff had to shift
and I had to learn some,
there's so many things that came into place
to pull that off.
And so, yeah, last March,
two days before the world shut down, I did it.
It was supposed to be at the largest equipment exhibition
in the world down in San Diego as an event.
And that got shut down a week beforehand, obviously.
So we moved to, let's do it in my gym and invite people.
And that was on a Saturday and Thursday or Friday,
they limited it to 25 people for gatherings.
I did it on Saturday and then Monday, everything shut down.
So it was kind of surreal for timing wise, right?
And so if I hadn't done it, it would have never got done.
Like, 'cause I'd pushed to the limit.
I couldn't come back and do it.
It was at the total limitation of my capabilities.
So I'm pretty proud of it.
Oh, and the last piece was,
every one of these feats along the way,
I collaborated with a charity that I believed in.
And there was a lot of those tied to my life story,
which we probably will get into.
So it was threefold.
So that inspiration piece, inspiration, motivation,
walking the walk and showing, like,
just these methodologies that a guy
that had to learn to walk again
can do something like this with no back pain.
There is a way.
And the third one is to provide awareness and recognition
around a lot of key charities.
- So your heart was in this journey, but also your mind.
It's just, you're like a scholar of strength,
a scientist of strength, an engineer of strength.
For reps, do a thousand pounds of squat and deadlift.
Let's first talk through the actual day you did it.
What does it take to lift that much for reps?
- The day of is really easy.
The lift itself, other than a few seconds,
is really easy and not challenging.
People always ask me, what was it like?
How beat up were you after that and the deadlift?
And the simple fact is it was easy.
§02Transcript · 08:50–17:27
The work to get there was horrendous.
- So even the psychology of the day,
you weren't, there was not a fear,
there was not a nervousness,
there was not a doubt in your mind?
- There was certainly doubts on that day
from some training history.
So there was some major breaks to my confidence
in the couple months leading up
where I had issues with passing out under the bar.
So completely losing consciousness.
And this was on weight less than a thousand pounds even.
So that was like all this buildup in me going, what if?
I think I have this resolved, but what if I get up there
and I can't even do a rep?
How embarrassing will this be that I've been talking
about this and planning for this for so long?
But outside of that, I knew I could do it.
In fact, I wanted to do even more, even up to the second rep.
Training is about working into a fatigue state.
So you're building an amount of fatigue in your system.
And then when you let off of it,
that's when you get a compensation
and that's how you stair-step training.
This is periodization, but leading into a big event,
you're accumulating this massive amount of fatigue.
And so I was performing at a level that I could do it.
And so I knew I was gonna be able to on meet
because then you give yourself that window
to be able to recover and super compensate
and be able to do a little bit more.
So that first rep when I did it, strength-wise,
I went, I could do this for five reps.
Like it went through my head.
I'm like, I mean, it was easy and it was fast
and it felt amazing.
And I'm like, I'm gonna crush this.
And then set rep two, the realization kicked in.
It's like, oh, this is for reps
with a thousand pounds on your back
and you're fatiguing just like...
And then the third one was every last thing I could muster
to just finish.
I mean, I just barely got it done
because the strength is there,
but that capacity to be able to manage all those resources
for that amount of time.
'Cause it's not just leg strength
when we're talking about this stuff.
- What does it take to go from, I don't know what,
from 500 to a thousand?
That feels like a journey that's exponential.
It seems like way harder.
- It is, it gets exponentially harder.
It does.
In the early 2000s, like I said, I started lift in 1988,
but my first meet in the early 2000s,
my max deadlift was 523 and my first squat was 550.
So for reference.
- That's a heck of a journey.
- That is a journey.
- For people that like to lift,
what should they understand about the difference
between doing 500 and a thousand?
In terms of the actual lift
that you were experiencing that day,
in terms of the mechanics,
in terms of all the things you have to be,
like the neurological adaptation you mentioned,
the breathing, the core strength,
like techniques, like little tricks, psychological tricks,
anything that kind of stands out to you?
- The level of intent and the opportunity for error
are at a different level.
So just the minutest changes of position
by quarter inch, half inch can be make or break
at that level.
So these things, everything gets amplified.
So the ability to start with having the pelvis
just in the right orientation to the diaphragm
before we start initiating what we call
the eccentric loading of the abdominal cavity
to create this intra-abdominal pressure
of working against this outward expansion,
working against the outer sheath
of abdominal thoracolumbar musculature, obliques,
causing the co-contraction at the pelvic floor,
all this stuff and how you cue that,
'cause you can't think about all this stuff.
You need to break it down and distill in practice
to like it's one simple cue that we now lock down
and control this torso stability,
because this is what these fundamental movements are about
is being able to control our spinal mechanics
and then now be able to maintain that
while articulating the joints around that
through a range of motion,
and then using the main power drivers.
So in this instance, both instances,
it's the hip complex to generate that power
and transfer it from how we're rooted
and connected to the floor through to the distal end,
which would be the barbell on the shoulder.
There's a couple of key concepts.
So one is that what we just talked through
is how to actually maintain that stability.
So if you have either the diaphragm,
so which is connected at the rib cage,
so out of alignment in any position,
it needs to be in alignment with the pelvis.
So those two in opposition.
So this is simple engineering here,
because what we're gonna do is eccentrically load this.
We're gonna use the diaphragm
just like you would in a diaphragm pump,
where it's gonna press down on all the tissue in there.
So we're not using breath.
So our breath was actually a lot of times a default pattern
when people do that,
because they'll bring it into their chest
and raise their rib cage.
So what we wanna do is just initiate the diaphragm.
Air can be used as well over the top at the final
to create just a little bit more downward pressure.
But if we have out of alignment there,
we have a pressure leak,
where it's gonna be push out the front or the rear
if you're either inflection or extension.
And then that causes this co-contraction
and all this pressure of the organs,
essentially outward against all those tissue
for the co-contraction, as well as surrounding the spine
to be able to stabilize that.
And then it puts all the muscles on both sides of the body
in what we call the best length tension relationship.
So if you think about a curl and we reach our arm out,
at the extended length, our bicep is not as strong,
and then all the way in the curl position,
it's not as strong.
There's somewhere in here that's this control of both.
And so when you're sitting there arched or bent over,
we have muscles that are past either one of those ranges.
So they've got a lot of tension,
which then will create relaxation on the other side.
So we wanna have, and all of that needs to be working.
And now the next important thing is the foot.
So it's actually this connection to the ground
and how we're actually using the foot and ankle complex
to grab and grip this connection to the ground
and elicit an effect.
And because of this, and then everything between
will naturally kind of do what it needs to do.
So people like to focus on knee position
or how far out their hips are, all this other stuff,
which is outputs of this.
So if we control the torso and the knee,
the only thing that can happen from that point
is for the squat to happen.
All right.
So this allows us to use this massive,
the hip complex for all the muscles around that
that are built to drive through hip extension
to complete the squat.
I did actually miss one thing in there.
So this torso, people will often miss,
the lat is a spinal stabilizer as well.
So that's key in controlling function at the TL junction,
which is just above the lumbar spine.
So kind of right opposite where your sternum is,
and you'll see people kind of roll over sometimes
like in an Olympic squat or something like that
where they lose position.
And that's often because they're close grip
because you can't engage the lats very well that way.
And they're pushing up in the bar,
but you want to be able to drive
and pull the bar to your center.
And that's going to create and use the lats now to drive
and connect the shoulder into this.
And we're kind of congressing and tightening all this stuff
towards that center to create that entire torso stability.
That's why I was using torso stability,
not just core stability in my conversation earlier.
- Torso stability.
Okay. So there's all these like modules
- Yeah. - of the body
then connected to the grounding
with like your feet on the ground,
everything you're speaking to,
how do you work each of those modules?
Is this over time you kind of develop the feel
that ultimately boils down to this one simple cue
that you mentioned,
or can you like literally study each particular module
in yourself and see how it affects the lift?
- So the best way, and I'm a big believer,
'cause I hate just like people getting out
and just doing just movement stuff
and not actually adding load,
because we only adapt when there's load.
§03Transcript · 17:30–24:57
Maybe we can get some, you know,
some proprioception or awareness of position
and other stuff doing some corrective patterns
and other stuff.
But this is basic physiology,
is that there must be an imposed demand
for us to have adaptation.
And this is mental, this is emotional,
this is all these areas,
but, and people miss that.
So I prefer to be able to look at a person,
and this is our methodology,
and do the assessment in any basic loaded movement.
So with developing an eye for that,
you can actually see and go,
okay, we've got a fault pattern right here in the foot,
and use a cue or a set of cues,
doesn't really matter till we find the one that works
and bring that, and now we know.
We wanna simplify this.
Stuff I just walked through,
that sounds really complicated,
and it is if we try to break down and distill it all,
but like, let's just find the basic stuff
that gets us in the range, start working,
and then find the next as we add load,
and now we find where's our next area
that we're starting to fault at,
and then go there again next.
So this is what we do,
what we teach in our educational platform.
So we are the only, I believe,
everybody wants to do a lot of these assessments,
on a bench, on a table, body,
and it's like, no, let's go squat, let's go deadlift.
If you do strongman and it's a yoke carry, let's yoke carry.
'Cause these are basic human fundamentals,
it's not power lifting.
Like this is how we function,
this is why we work with 29
of the 30 major league baseball teams,
and 90% of all professional sports out there,
in North America, sorry.
Although we do some work with Tour de France
and other stuff as well.
And North America, I do mean hockey too.
(laughing)
But these principles, like, you know,
if the Dodgers won't bring us in,
they're not learning how to power lift.
You know, we're gonna, obviously,
we'll probably be doing,
we do a little bit more shoulder focus
than hip focus with their athletes, or their coaches.
We're usually working with the coaches, not the athletes.
- And so you help them,
and then the same thing on yourself,
to understand the role
that these different muscle groups have
on the holistic lift.
- Yeah, so it's all about getting the joints
in the appropriate position,
so that we can manage loads,
so that we're not putting undue stress on the joint,
we're getting the proper link tension,
we're getting these basic fundamental things with the body.
And so the largest global impact that you will have
is through spinal mechanics.
I can't look at a shoulder if I'm not managing this,
'cause it's your spine.
So for those that are just listening,
like, I'm arching and then flexing.
That's gonna affect shoulder extension,
flexion, all these sorts of things.
So it could even affect things down
to what's looking at dorsiflexion issues on the foot.
And then that's why I go to the foot next,
because it has the second largest global impact.
And then from there,
now I'm gonna look at the big energy drivers,
which is the hip complex, shoulder complex.
And then we can start looking
at kind of the peripheral things,
but usually that's some sort of output of the other,
but the knees, the elbows, the things like that.
So it's all about getting the stack,
which affects neurology.
So let's talk in engineering terms.
You get in a car, modern car today,
and a lot of them will have
this traction control button in there.
And there's a big misconception that,
you know, I'm out and it's snowy,
or here in Austin only rainy,
well, it probably doesn't rain much,
but you're going around a corner, start slipping.
It's like, oh, it's gonna send the powers
from the wheels that are slipping
to the ones that are gripping,
and keep me from crashing and dying a fiery death.
Well, that's not how it works.
It's the exact same.
We've got the tires, which are our foot,
you know, the connection to the ground, right?
We've got the power driver, which is, you know,
the engine, the transmission delivering,
you know, the power through it.
And we've got the stability or suspension.
And then we have the neurology.
And what the neurology is doing,
it's sensing that we don't have good stability
or a loss of connection somewhere.
And so I need to save you from crashing and hurting yourself.
And so it goes to the engine and says,
let's retard the timing, let's reduce the shift patterns,
and we're just reducing the power output.
And that's straight how the human body works.
So when I do this stuff, it's actually affecting that.
I mean, I can take somebody and do some minute changes
with the neck position at the thoracic outlet, okay?
And immediately see an enhancement in power output.
And I can measure it.
We measure this stuff with velocity devices
and see like a 10%, boom, jump.
And so think about that.
What about all your training through the years
where you actually had additional capacity,
but you weren't using it
because your traction control was on?
Now you figure this out stuff,
and now you start stacking it,
and now you can see so much greater.
So it's not just injury prevention.
This is performance and additive performance over time.
This is huge, and people don't really think about this stuff
but we can turn that stuff off,
which is actually gonna also, again, make us safer.
But what we wanna do is the performance tuned race car.
Do they have a traction control button?
No, they got some amazing tires to grip the ground,
a performance tuned suspension,
and that driver's gonna put what?
His foot to the metal.
He's gonna put it to the floor.
Okay, that's a performance vehicle.
That's what we wanna be.
- I wanna continue on that line,
but first I have to ask,
how did it feel to accomplish the grand goal?
- Oh my God.
- Okay, when you just stand back,
1,000 pounds for reps, what'd it feel like?
- Anybody can go watch the video online.
- It's well filmed, by the way.
Got me all excited.
- Oh, well, the movies.
So we actually have the final footage of that,
the good footage, not posted yet.
So it's literally just an Instagram video
or a phone video right now, the only one online.
- It's on your YouTube channel, but it's dramatic.
- Yes, it is.
It came out just timed to the music perfectly too,
which is, I listened to some odd music,
which there's some reason behind that.
But--
- I liked it though.
It was great.
You're saying there's full length footage?
- There's a documentary that's,
it's got a little slowed because of COVID
'cause it's also a backstory of "The Eagle and the Dragon,"
my book, about why I do kind of the things
that I've done in my life.
That's what I'm assuming the director's working on.
I don't really have the control of the movie, right?
(laughing)
- But okay, but the video's incredible.
How did it feel?
- How'd it feel?
I started crying.
It was overwhelming to have worked so intensely
and so long and hard at something
that pushed every ounce of me to the limit.
And I did it.
I'm getting a little emotional.
I did exactly what I said I was gonna fucking do.
And it was overpowering.
I mean, I was just crying uncontrollably.
Just with a mixture of,
I don't know what,
the mixture of emotions is hard to explain
because it was the completion of something.
It was a new phase of my life.
- I mean, there's so many things here.
So one, you set an impossible goal and you accomplished it.
One.
Two is on the broader humanity aspect,
how many humans in this world accomplish perfection
in a particular direction required to do this?
§04Transcript · 25:01–33:48
So you're basically representing
one little glimmer of excellence of the human spirit.
- There's always more.
So understand this.
This is a basic fundamental.
You can always do better.
There is no such thing as perfection.
You could always, there is always more.
So anytime you reach something,
any amazing workout or accomplishment in life,
could you have put more into it?
Could you?
Yes.
But here's the thing.
I left on my terms.
I said, this is it.
I'm gonna work towards, I've been training for 30 years.
I'm gonna do this thing that is,
like I couldn't even say
that I was gonna do it years before.
I'm gonna do it and then I'm done.
I didn't leave from an injury.
I wasn't forced.
I left on, I did exactly what I said.
I went to a level that I,
I left on my terms.
And that's unique.
'Cause that's usually not the case.
Usually you kind of either taper out or it doesn't matter.
I'm talking like anything in life in general, right?
You taper out, you fail, you hurt, you lose a job.
Something, you roll into retirement.
- You accomplished something truly great
and you walked away on your own terms.
Is there a sadness completing something like that?
Because it's in one perspective,
the greatest thing you'll ever do.
And like when you accomplish such a great height,
in some sense you have to face your mortality at that point.
- So good question,
but it is certainly not the greatest thing that I'll ever do.
The greatest physical strength I'll ever do.
The greatest, yes.
But that was an expression of some of my values
and the way that I want to live.
It was a way of expressing it.
So understanding that is hugely fundamental
because we do see so many athletes
get to the end of a career
and then they fall into a depressive state
and struggle with drugs, alcohol, depression, so on,
because they lost how they identified themselves
and trying to figure out where to turn, what to do,
but a big central component of their identity is lost.
So I knew that this was one way to express that
and my grand goals have shifted.
They're shifted to other outlets
that allow me to express that.
Like my company's Kabuki Strength,
I'm going to change the face of fitness
as well as all the way through with its integration
with clinical medicine and telemedicine.
And I got another five years
before even people see what I'm working on.
I'm five years in right now
'cause I had to invent equipment.
I have to develop methodologies that we're talking.
I had to do this stuff that Ground Layer wasn't done
to create a cohesive ecosystem of training methodology
tied to the tools that we're using,
to the environment tied to,
the clinical practice assessment tied to,
the interaction between all those
and how that actually needs to be reframed
because so much of this is broken, okay?
So, but there is sadness.
I won't deny that.
And the sadness comes in the singularity
of focus that I had at that time,
the being in the process,
not necessarily doing, but like,
having being in this place that the rest of the world
kind of fell away from me in those final phases
to have something so intense,
to have a team around me so focused on supporting.
And like, it took me a couple months after that squat,
I finally one day I woke up and I was like,
oh, welcome back to the world.
Like I was in such a mental fog.
Like I was, it took me a while to climb out of that,
but that space, that level of intensity and drive
and living and being in that space,
I do miss that, but I also, I can't continue that.
I couldn't continue, like,
there's a point of like, you push it so hard,
the level to try to go from there is not acceptable
for what you, the impacts that it'll have on your life
or how you want to live.
And it was taking away those final,
like I had to do extreme things
and live in an extreme way to get there.
- You're just a genius in this whole space of strength
and health and almost like biology
that the strength feat is just one representation of that.
But this particular strength feat required
that kind of singular focus, which I think,
I don't know, there's something beautiful
about that singular focus.
- There is.
- Often only truly perfected in athletics.
I see it with the greatest Olympic athletes as well.
The kind of singular focus required there is incredible.
It's somehow some of the most beautiful things
that humans can do.
- And it's not just that thing.
So that's the thing, it's like, oh, that must be it.
When we say singularity of focus, it's not like,
because it covers a vast array of stuff.
Like I was working with people, you know, all,
well, yeah, all around North America.
I wouldn't say anybody around the globe,
but professionals coming in,
working on different aspects of rehab and recovery.
And like, I mean, I'm tapping all sorts of stuff
in so many platforms from nutrition to drugs,
to again, like, you know, various Chinese medicine,
you know, as far as, you know.
- But also the humans in your life,
just love and positivity and just inspiration,
all those kinds of aspects.
I mean, you probably would have done much more
if you went outside North America,
talked to some Russians, just between you and I.
Some Russians.
- Possibly.
(laughing)
- They give you some, I don't know,
there's some incredible strength athletes in Eastern Europe.
- Absolutely.
I've got the best one coming in September to get fixed, so.
- What do you mean by fixed?
- So I'm not sure what his particular issues are,
but he has held the all-time world record repeatedly
for a long time, and he hasn't competed for some time,
and he just reached out saying he would like to come
and have me take a look and see if I can get him fixed
because he needs to return.
- Okay, so it's more injury-centric versus like form
and fundamental-centric combination of everything.
- Everybody always wants to focus on the output.
How do you give me the fix for that?
But it ties right back into all those other things, right?
So, but yeah, the Eastern block continued
to be a dominant force in regards to athletics
and strength athletics, without a doubt.
Some of my big rivals in my competitive days
were, that's who it was.
- Rivalry brings out the best in us.
Can you tell me the story of your childhood?
- It's definitely outside the scope of the norm,
well, today, maybe not 150 or 200 years ago,
but my parents, highly intelligent people
coming out of the Bay Area.
My mom was going to school to be a chemical engineer.
She was a top student athlete, graduated out of her school.
My father was a member of MENSA.
My stepfather was just a genius,
but not able to really function in society.
But my mom was, she had some demons and some other stuff
and just, she just said one day, she's like,
"I just don't wanna be part of society."
She still isn't.
Lives out in the desert, but has her minds.
But she wanted to figure out a way
to make a life outside of that.
And so that's where we ended up,
is up in the mountains in Northern California.
And a lot of that was them trying to get into
successfully growing marijuana,
which back in that, wasn't legal back then, highly illegal.
And in fact, those areas were,
some of the areas where I lived were quite dangerous.
So there's a documentary, "Murder Mountain,"
that came out recently.
If you watch that, you'll tie into my book,
just the understanding of the stuff
that I was talking about, dealing with serial killers,
human trafficking, police corruption, murderers,
like just how real that stuff is
if it doesn't capture you from the book, okay?
- The book, by the way, is "The Eagle and the Dragon."
- Yeah, thank you.
(both laughing)
Yeah, yeah. - It's a great one.
- I'm a terrible salesperson, like I told you.
So. (laughs)
- But a good, it's a good title.
I don't know if you came up with it, but.
- I did, yeah.
- So yeah, we'll talk about that anyway.
§05Transcript · 33:50–43:12
- We're living by a stream, off a meadow.
There's no roads into where you have to hike in.
And we've got beams lashed into the trees up above us
because that's where our bedding is
'cause there's rattlesnake dens all around.
And six years old, I'm being taught how to capture
and handle live rattlesnakes
because that's what I need to do to be safe.
And you can imagine, six years old,
sitting there with a live rattlesnake in your hand,
grabbing it by the side of the head,
controlling so it can't bite you.
And it's just wrapping itself around your arm
and you're staring at it.
It's only intent is, right then, is to kill you.
Like, that's it, right?
You wanna take a bath,
it's filling up the jug in the stream
and setting it out on the rocks during the sun
so you can dump it over your head.
And not all the living was that way.
You know, good part was similar to that, tent living,
living in a 16-foot trailer with a family of six,
which is not much bigger than the space
that we're sitting here.
So, and we're talking hard winters
with feet of snow on the ground, nowhere to go.
I'm living in the back of the pickup truck
in just a standard sleeping bag
that we get from the Salvation Army,
not the Blow Zero.
So I'm not sleeping well.
There's living in homes that were maybe condemned.
There's no doors even on 'em,
no electricity or running water,
or one or the other or both,
and sometimes a little bit better.
By the time we got to high school, we had a mobile home.
So my stepfather had won a disability payment
'cause he had a broken arm that whole time
from an accident a long time ago
and finally got an award
and got a down payment on this mobile home
that didn't have, again, doors on the inside.
It did have running water, it did have electricity.
Didn't have a kitchen.
You know, the windows would crank closed and open,
but they wouldn't close all the way.
So they'll trim 'em in with plastic
to be able to try to protect from the elements.
That was my environment,
like learning how to forage for mushrooms.
I mean, there were summers I would send,
and my parents would be out.
They were in the drug trade earlier.
We got taken by the police
and put into foster care for a while,
which ties into some of the stories
with human trafficking.
And honestly, it's in my book,
but it's really hard for me to talk about that stuff.
And obviously not all that's in the book.
But they got us back, moved to Oregon,
and they stayed out of the drug trade from that time
to ensure that they didn't lose us again.
But quickly, we kind of fell back into the same thing.
So at that point, it was learning about geology
and starting to do mining
and firewood cutting, but mostly the mining
'cause Pat's broken arm chainsaw made a little tough.
- If you remember just the sequence of moments,
are you haunted by the darker moments of your childhood?
Do you remember moments of simple joy and happiness?
- Outside of the living around dangerous people
and the interactions that came from that,
we were a family.
We were a cohesive unit battling against the world together.
We spent all our time together, work, play.
I was there.
I was helping raise my siblings or I was working with them.
And it was a constant, like I said,
we were very physically active.
So I had that in my upbringing.
That plug for my shoe company, Barefoot, B-E-A-R.
I ran around the wilderness and bare feet all the time.
But I had a lot of great moments
and I'm thankful for a lot of that childhood
once we take out the trauma
and the other stuff associated with it.
And so the connection that I have with my sisters is huge.
That goes a bit further 'cause I am kind of like
a little bit of a father figure
because I was at home raising them.
And then later I took custody of them
while I was going to school
because the environment at home deteriorated further.
Their stepfather, like I said,
was he wasn't capable of managing life.
And my mom had a mental breakdown and took off to Montana
and he descended into madness even worse.
Actually took my 13 year old sister
and kicked her out in the middle of winter,
couple feet of snow on the ground
because he thought she stole his favorite cereal bowl type.
So that's when I took in and I was going to college,
put myself through college
and I started taking custody of my sisters and raising them.
So anyway, we're still like very, very tight family.
It took, there was a few years later in life
like that the connection with my mother was kind of broken.
I didn't speak to her for years
because of her basically abandoning my sisters
and me having to come in,
but we've worked through that as best we can.
- So you anger on your part?
- It wasn't, there might've been some anger.
- Did you always love her?
- Yes, and I still do.
And I'm so, she's taught me basically everything I know
about strength and perseverance
and living life on your terms and being able to create that.
And so much of what I am is from that, right?
We've all had to learn to be okay with the way she is
because she is just blunt,
but she's the one that figured out
that the human trafficking situation
and got the DA involved and got all the,
she's the one that I've learned a lot from her.
- Did you inherit some of the demons?
- Oh, most certainly.
And it's something I've continued like,
and my father's side has been really tough on that
because some of it is just based genetic as well.
So my stepfather made, I think six or seven attempts
on his life during his lifetime.
One of those in front of me,
his mother blew her head off with a shotgun.
Her brother jumped out a window in LA.
Their father did something similar.
And I don't know how far back it goes
because there is no family except for me and my children.
- You spoke about going through depression yourself.
- Yeah.
- Can you talk about some of the darker moments of that?
Have you ever, like many in your family,
have you ever considered suicide?
- Yes, I have.
Yes, I have.
- You've achieved a lot of exceptional things in your life.
Can you talk about those early days of depression
and how you overcame it?
- Yeah, so the things that I did
that people give me accolades for
are the things that I did selfishly to save myself.
The things like taking custody of my sisters,
being the person that everybody around,
the important people relied on,
the fact that I had to step to the plate and be present
and be that person.
Because if I failed, they failed.
They would be like the people that I grew up with
that are dead or in prison or on drugs.
And they're either way to one of those, right?
That's where everybody ended.
And I wasn't gonna let that happen.
- What about saving yourself?
- And so that's how, in those early days,
that's how I did it.
Not saying it's the best approach,
but it was survivor mentality.
It was, I can't selfishly do that
because I have them to take care of.
Right?
And then that continued where I would keep putting myself
in these leadership roles or other things.
And there's always being this person
that was at the center, at the hub
that forced me to be there.
And so it's only in the more recent,
last decade or so that I have had to really learn
how to come and start confronting some of those demons.
And you think, man, why is the guy so successful?
Like, I mean, and we haven't talked about
all the stuff that I've done,
but like I've seen a lot of success
in both business leadership, athletics, academics,
entrepreneurship, all these sorts of things, right?
But if it wasn't for having kids
and the same being in the position, I wouldn't be here.
And that's just, that's the reality of it.
And I'm learning to come and manage those as best I can,
learning to meditate into those things
and really feel what the driver is
so I can get to those root understanding
and having some guidance doing so.
Like if you've got mental health issues,
this isn't something that you need to tackle on your own.
Like having a professional that can help guide you
on that introspective journey is something like,
it's not like, hey, I'm big tough guy,
§06Transcript · 43:14–52:41
I can handle everything.
- That's fascinating that you saved yourself.
That's quite powerful to save yourself
by having others depend on you.
And so you can't fail, you can't fuck it up.
And that's a reason to keep moving forward.
But on the flip side, that's not addressing the darkness.
- It's not.
And it probably not a sustainable strategy either, right?
So I recognize these things.
- I don't know.
Perhaps it is sustainable.
Perhaps, I mean, there's something beautiful
about giving yourself basically in service of others
and thereby creating purpose.
And then like, it's almost like fake it till you make it.
And then you make it eventually.
- That is purpose though.
- That is purpose.
- That is purpose.
I mean, you have to, to me,
life is about taking your cup
and how you choose to pour it out,
how you choose to give, what is your purpose?
What is that connection with everybody around you?
This is, that's the intent, that's the life.
That's what life is about.
How are you going to help those around you?
How are you gonna help the world?
Your purpose is right here, figuring out what this is
and then how to do that.
But at the same time, you can't let that run dry.
So you have to make sure that you're filling that up.
That's the other side, right?
That's the other side.
- We'll return to your engineering degree,
which you're obviously scientifically engineering minded,
which is fascinating.
Your book is titled "The Eagle and the Dragon."
What do the eagle and the dragon symbolize?
- They're pretty big symbols for me.
In fact, that covers my entire body as a tattoo.
So the first one I had done at around 19 years old.
And so this is, or started at 19.
It's an eagle that covers my entire front,
you know, my stomach, rib cage,
and one that was on my back that covered most of my back.
And there's chained at the, well, at the claw, I guess.
And the chain wraps down around and attaches to my ankle.
And there's a shackle there.
And so this was something that I had done at that age
because it was, to me, it was a representation
of your potential, your strengths, your abilities,
that you can fly to whatever height
that you want in this world.
The only thing holding you back
at the end of the day is yourself.
And this was, I hadn't necessarily accomplished
a whole lot at that time.
I mean, I was valedictorian for high school,
small high school, does that even count?
Yeah, I was a state level wrestler.
This was my belief.
And--
- You sensed that there was a potential in you.
And the only thing that could stop you
from realizing that potential was yourself.
- That's right.
- That's a heck of a tattoo to get, by the way, at 19, but.
- Yeah, yeah.
About 40 hours went into that thing.
- It shows you got some guts.
- And then the next tattoo,
so I only have two.
I had done in 2015, 2016,
when I, so at this point in my life.
So I had done that.
I had flown to whatever heights, right?
So I had proven to myself
and maybe done what I thought I needed to do
to show the world that this poor kid from the sticks,
this kid growing up in the mountains with nothing
could achieve the American dream.
I was a corporate executive sought after
that I'd come in, I'd fix companies,
I'd turn around and prep them for sale.
I'd take a company and grow it from a regional
to a national, to a global presence.
I did this in the automotive manufacturing,
aerospace manufacturing, high-tech, heavy industry.
And I had a house with a white picket fence.
I was a successful athlete with all time world records.
I owned a gym on the side where I coached people
and I had a comfortable marriage
that everything was hunky-dory with no arguments at home.
And I walked away from all of it.
I left everything behind except for my kids.
I wanted to chase what I was meant to do
and chase what I was capable of doing.
I wanted to become a better version of myself,
but very intentfully.
And that's what I did.
I sold, I had multiple homes, sold my homes.
I cashed in all my retirement that I'd earned
for 20, nearly 20 years.
And I lost all that.
I leveraged myself millions of dollars of personal debt
so that if I failed, there was no way out.
Even going back to that old career that I did well,
I'd be living in an apartment the rest of my life
paying it off.
People questioned, people questioned me at the time
because I had a comfortable, easy marriage.
And I chose to ask for a divorce.
And I ended up living in an apartment for a couple years
with no income, selling off every last thing that I had
except for my two vehicles that I built.
And with my kids.
And I started my businesses to help people
live a better quality of life, to get them out of pain,
to help them live better through strength,
to realize that stress, demand, those things,
they don't have to be the thing that, if you look back,
made you had the bad back, made you have the bad Ds,
but they do the opposite.
They get you out of pain.
And then I started working on my book
to hit on those other things, the mental, the emotional,
maybe even spiritual.
I don't touch on that one too much in there,
but it's all the same.
That things that happen around you to you,
like maybe they're bad, I can't take away that,
but why can't you use what you have of it
to become a stronger and better person,
to become more resilient, to be able to take the things
that you don't know that are coming in the future.
And so this is very intentful.
And that's what the second,
long-winded answer in your question here.
- The dragon. - The dragon.
The dragon is an Ouroboros.
And so it circles my entire upper body,
my shoulders, my back, my chest, everything.
It's right here, there's this big dragon head,
and its tail is right there in its mouth.
It's eating itself.
It may sound a bit graphic or whatever,
but it's the eating of the old becoming the new.
It is the purposeful reinvention of oneself.
It is the deciding, not realizing just your potential,
but deciding specifically who you want to be
in this fucking world and becoming that person.
- Can you comment on the value and the power
of putting a flame to your old life, your old self,
just destroying all of it as you walk into the new life?
Did you have to do that?
- I don't recommend this, by the way,
because when you put yourself in no way out,
there is no way out, okay?
Like, you gotta really...
But I can be an overconfident individual at times,
and I live through extremes.
I think it's a great way of actually finding
your real values and how you want to live, honestly,
to chase having absolutely perfect squat technique,
but chase putting every freaking thing that you got in it,
which most people would say, those are opposite.
Those are diametrically opposed.
I wanted a better home life.
I wanted to do more in the world through my work.
And the burning the bridges mentality
is not necessarily the best.
There was some temperament in that, though,
because I was slow to make the shift for a long time
because I'd been thinking about doing it,
but I was thinking about doing it
in a healthcare perspective.
I'm gonna go back to school to be a surgeon
or a physical therapist or a chiro,
because that's where all my research and stuff
was in this human movement and rehab and recovery.
This is the mentors that I'd been developing
were the best in the world in these things,
in these disciplines.
Those were my friends.
But I wasn't able to compromise my family's
certain quality of life.
I wanted to keep that.
So it was slow and hard for me to make that transition,
but I didn't do it until I had a platform built enough
that those first few years, I did have an income.
I was able to make enough from the business
until it grew so fast that I needed,
so much more needed to come in.
The living in the apartment piece and doing all that,
that was actually a couple of years
into that process, maybe like two years.
- Well, I'm with you on that.
So I'm actually going through that very process now.
§07Transcript · 52:44–1:01:05
I put everything, I quit everything,
gave away everything and starting anew.
And unfortunately or fortunately,
this podcast somehow became quite popular.
So it's getting in the way of my burning everything
to the ground.
(laughing)
But in that, it's a source of joy.
But the main thing I'm after is the similar project
as you is building a business.
Sense of joy.
So this is the point I want to drive home right now.
Right now.
Because when I say burn,
I learned the burning the bridges works
because that's how I had to succeed when I was earlier.
The bridges weren't burnt, they didn't exist.
There was no couch to go home to.
There was no fallback plan.
And it forced me and gave me the confidence
to know that I can pull it off.
But I don't encourage people
because there's so much out there of this hustle porn
and other stuff going, just grind, just go after it,
get in and start your, you'll get there.
And it's all about the output, to make money,
to be somebody, to do this.
And I'll tell you what,
that is some short-term motivation right there.
I feel like dropping a few swear words, but.
(laughing)
You're always welcome.
We've already done a few, so we'll.
All right, we'll bounce it out.
That is short-term.
That is not going to keep you going.
This needs, if you're going to go that approach,
it needs to be because this is your North Star.
There's going to be so much hard work.
There's going to be years of just pushing through
where your quest, not only is everybody around you
questioning you and your family's questioning you,
you're questioning yourself going,
man, I don't know if I can pull this off.
You're going to be stressed.
You're going to be pulled to the max.
If somebody comes up to me and says,
should I start a business?
I'm going to say no.
And they'll be like, oh, you're supposed to motivate me.
If you need me to motivate you,
this is the wrong damn approach for you.
This is going to be hard.
This is going to be harder than you expect,
even with me telling you this.
And so it better damn well be worth it.
This better be your North fucking star.
This better live and be a way for you
to be able to articulate or realize
those values that you want to live.
This isn't something to make money.
This is a way for you to live the life
and be able to share the values
that you have with the world.
And that's what it is.
And if you don't have that, which is going to give you joy,
then freaking walk away.
- Yeah.
- This is not some way to make some money and be known.
- I mean, this includes both like simple day-to-day joy
and also deep meaning.
The whole thing.
And then that allows you to overcome
all the pain along the way.
But I got to say, I mean, it's a difficult thing
'cause you run a business.
This podcast and a lot of things I do research-wise
is full of joy, but it's simple.
Running a business is hard.
So it's something that I'm very hesitant about
in that to almost push back a little bit,
I think if I do get the guts to start the business,
it will not be because I'm not choosing a more joyful life
'cause I'm already truly happy.
The reason I'll choose is because I just can't help it.
There's this, I've always had this dream
and I know it's gonna lead to suffering
and I know it's gonna be a life
that has less happiness in it.
As sad as this to say.
- But it won't be.
It won't be less happiness.
Because we talk about this cup
and where you choose to pour it
and what you choose to do with it.
And when you look back on things,
the things that are gonna give you the most joy,
the most proud, the things that are gonna stand out
in your life that you really remember
are gonna be those days.
And those years you struggle,
you're gonna look back on 10 years later and go,
fuck, those were the glory days.
Those were the glory days.
And it won't feel like it at the time.
- That's so weird.
- That's what life's made of.
And so this is your opportunity, you feel that.
So right now you got this, when you think about it,
you got this little thing twisting up in your gut.
It's like it's a mixture of anxiety and fear
as well as excitement.
And that is, that's your signal
that this is your opportunity for that personal growth,
to challenge yourself.
This is your going for a run or working out in the heat.
It's those things.
It is your opportunity to go,
heck, maybe it even fails.
Maybe it even fails.
But by turning into that, you're gonna learn so much
and it's gonna make you so much better.
And it's the path that you should take
when you have this stuff rolling around in there.
And I don't, it could just be a hard conversation
with your partner or your boss.
It could be taking on a project that,
your boss has thrown out to the team and you're like,
oh, I'm gonna hide in the back, I don't want that one.
And it's like, maybe, maybe you do.
Maybe it's going back to school.
Maybe it's making that career move that you always wanted,
but you're just afraid of.
All these things are your opportunity
for you to turn into that.
It is your workout.
It is your practice.
Because if you don't, you'll get soft.
And who knows what's coming
and you're not gonna be ready for it.
And it's gonna run right over the top of you
because you're gonna be weak.
You're gonna be soft.
- There's some aspect in which choosing that hard path
is actually the way to arrive
at the richest kind of happiness.
The greatest fulfillment.
That's the funny thing about just the human--
- Just make sure you're filling the cup
as you're going through it, not pouring it all out.
So that's the part to figure out, right?
- Sure.
Well, life is short anyway.
Eventually the cup will be empty.
So maybe time the refilling of the cup correctly
so you maximize the little time you got.
Let me talk to you about strength a little bit.
First, high level.
What are the differences
in the different disciplines of strength?
So powerlifting we talked about.
Maybe just to clarify for people,
powerlifting, Olympic lifting,
just regular gym fitness, bodybuilding,
doing curls in front of the mirror for hours like I do.
What's the difference between all of these?
Oh, and also strongman.
- Every one of those as far as the athletic disciplines
are different qualities.
So we wanna think about things as terms of quality.
So there's strength, there's power, there's endurance,
there's the ability to be coordinated and athletic.
There's all these things and they're different qualities.
So your training as it relates to that
is how you cycle in the development of those qualities.
What we wanna think about is,
there's a lot of different frames of thought.
Some very classical, maybe not classical Russian approach
'cause there's a lot of different approach
from the Eastern block.
But one of the ones is developing all the qualities at once,
focusing on building those.
More of a periodization effect
would be focusing on one quality at a time
or one quality while maintaining other qualities
and then shifting that around.
So it's just gonna be a little different
based on what the output is and what the desired.
So like powerlifting is actually, power is the wrong word.
There's actually no power in it.
It's just brute, it's strength.
Application of force.
So Olympic lifting would actually be a better name
for powerlifting because that is more explosive development.
There's strongman is again,
now we're getting a little bit more athletic.
It's equipment based on the implements
and stuff that are used,
how fast you can move your feet and run
mixed with more endurance, but still very strength focused.
§08Transcript · 1:01:09–1:09:40
And there's some things with strongman that is straight.
Like each one of these is very also focused
on different genetic dispositions.
So actually if you look at the history of sports,
you'll find that they're a lot of times
based on different populations.
It sounds like it's very un-PC, but like Highland Games,
they've got deeper hip sockets that are shallow.
So you're gonna see a lot of short hip hinge movements
like the caber toss and things like that.
Muay Thai wrestling,
they've got a completely different hip joint.
And so strongman itself is gonna be
for very large frame individuals.
If you're not well over six foot and a large person,
you're probably not going to perform well.
Very few people at sub six foot
have ever done well at strongman
just because it's leverage based.
Olympic lifting, we see consistently in Europe,
the history tells us a high level of hip and back issues
because of the depth that that hip socket has to go in
to be able to complete that lift.
And so you're gonna see issues with populations
that don't have the ability to do that.
So we've talked a little bit about training
as well as disposition.
- Yeah, and also cross-fit isn't to that.
That's more like strongman,
but for a wider variety of bodies, I suppose.
- Yep, and definitely more metabolic conditioning focused
than the strength aspect of it.
And conditioning is an interesting thing too.
So that quality, in my opinion,
can be developed a lot faster,
but kind of peaks much faster as well.
So where strength, we can continue to add and add
and add over time.
So it's, for me, for conditioning with any strength athlete,
I don't like to spend as much time on that.
So I'll cycle the conditioning work
for our strength athletes
and then taper that off leading into meet.
So the more metabolic work,
that means the more capacity in strength training
that you can accomplish, which is the goal,
and recover from.
But then as we lead to a competition,
we want to spend more time on recovering from that.
So we have to pull things out, so we'd pull out less.
So a typical approach would be taking a six week cycle
for conditioning and ramping up
over three weeks periods time,
then dropping back down again,
and ramping up and being slightly offset
by a week or two from your strength peaks,
so that you've actually tapered the week prior
in your conditioning work to your strength work.
And but that way we're not hitting conditioning hard
all the time, which is a common misstep that people make,
is going, well, I need conditioning.
So they just hammer that at a base level over the top
instead of cycling that.
- If we talk about power lifting,
in terms of regimen,
in terms of exercise, in terms of the process,
the wood consistent with what,
is there something to be said about general qualities
of the consistency of the regimen required to get strong?
- Yes.
So let's talk about some training principles as a whole.
And this will, I think this will break down
what you're wanting.
The more work that we can fit into a given time,
the more progress we're going to make.
But that doesn't mean doing the max amount of work possible
at any given time.
So we know that we're always, to accomplish more,
we're always gonna have more.
And there's a certain ceiling
that you're gonna hit
that you're not gonna be able to add more.
So you wanna start and get the most amount of results
that you can with the least amount of work,
because you're gonna have to do it again,
like this stair step over and over, year, decade, so on.
So when people, this is a big miss people got,
they look at a Chico program from Russia or so on,
and they go, I'm gonna follow this.
And it's like, that was specifically written
for somebody with 20 years of experience,
that's already built the capacities to be at that level.
So it's all about building that work capacity.
So how much work can you give in a given time?
So now we wanna look at some research
as it relates to injuries,
because injuries are gonna be a big driver over time
of what holds you back.
So when we talk consistency,
training hard for three years, five years,
it's gonna be really good.
But what we find is a lot of people train really hard
for nine months, have to slow back for a month,
get back into it and miss another week because,
and so on, they're always like this little nagging,
that little nagging.
And so it's pretty clear in the research,
we're looking at when we're stair stepping this stuff,
we're looking at acute and chronic loading.
So some fancy words for average
and like what's happening right now.
So this given week would be our acute,
chronic would be what is our average loading,
let's say over the last six months.
Okay, so the more that we can move the chronic loading up,
the more work we're getting done on as a whole over time,
we're gonna get stronger.
The way that we build the capacity to do that
is having spikes in acute loading.
Okay, now, as we do this,
the acute loading, if it spikes more than 10,
maybe 15% from what the chronic loading has been,
that accounts for 80% of injuries out there.
So it's not actually the movement quality
or this misstep or the other.
It usually happens about four, five, six weeks later.
It's like, oh, this nagging, and then it gets worse.
And then now you gotta do some rehab,
your training sessions aren't as good and so on.
So now we're starting to look at this.
Okay, it's like, I wanna do the least amount of work
where I can still progress.
I want to be able to have spikes in my weekly demand
that don't go above 10 to 15%
of what I've been averaging for the last month.
But every time I do a spike, my average goes up, right?
Boom, boom, boom.
And then that becomes very particular
also when you do take planned time off.
So a lot of people, training session,
maybe they're doing a five-week block with a deload week,
or you go on vacation for a week,
or any of those things that were a downward.
What does that do to your average and chronic loading?
It brings it down.
And then what does the person wanna do when they come back?
Make up for it.
Now they have a huge spike above, five weeks later,
we're dealing with, oh, this elbow, this wrist,
whatever's kind of bothering me,
and now you're not performing as much.
So these are some really fundamental pieces of training.
And then now we can start overlaying the qualities
that we're trying to develop
that we were talking about earlier.
So now it's, let's talk about my deadlift,
my thousand pound deadlift.
We'll talk about the training cycles for both,
the thousand deadlift and squat.
So backing up a year out from the deadlift,
knowing I was training at the time,
heavy deadlifts once a week.
And usually it was two of those sessions a month
were really heavy and the others weren't.
And it's like, okay, how can we get this up
to where I'm deadlifting twice a week?
Because that's where I wanna be,
to be able to accomplish this.
I need to be loading about that much with frequency
with a certain volume to be able to accomplish this goal.
We're not gonna go through all the math and stuff like that
and how that's arrived, but there is math behind this.
And so instead of just like,
oh, well, let's start deadlifting twice a week.
No.
So we start and we take the one session that we've got
and we split it, part of it,
take part of it away and put it
in the second half of the week.
So the total volume is still the same.
And then we start adding some volume,
but I'm doing it at a off a block
so that the actual load is,
accumulative load is less
'cause I have less range of motion.
And then we start building that closer to the ground,
closer to the ground and so on.
And now we start getting to where I'm almost doing
two sessions, full sessions a week.
And then we start adding a little bit of load.
And so at my level,
this isn't talking about adding another set
or another day a week.
We're talking like in my squat, it might be one rep.
Instead of doing three sets of three,
at one week I do two doubles or two triples,
then two doubles to give me one more rep.
That's it.
And so we're doing that from one week to the next.
And that's a cycle, training cycle.
§09Transcript · 1:09:41–1:17:46
It might be five, six weeks and then so on.
And then next one and slowly bringing that average load up.
So the last phases of the squat, for example,
we took the average loading every week.
So my, of my heavy sets.
So once we developed all this stuff over the last year
to get to this point, now it is taking and going,
okay, my average load this week is eight reps at 955 pounds.
And then the next week, let's get it to 957, 963.
And this was pretty aggressive,
working up to where my average loading, the final,
that at the final was 985 pounds,
average load for eight to nine reps.
And that's what I said, this is the intense part.
That was why it was the day of was much easier.
That week over week is pretty brutal.
May not sound well, you're just squatting.
And now let's back it up.
Let's look at the quality development.
So a year out from the squat,
obviously I've been working on developing
axial load capacity,
my capacity to withstand load from top to bottom.
So I like thinking about things in movement vectors.
So this vector is an axial loaded vector,
is the hardest to recover from.
- So what's axial?
So like is deadlift, are they both?
- They're both, yep.
So a horizontal, a front to back
would be like a row or a press.
- Why is the axial hardest to recover from?
'Cause it's the entire body, the entire torso?
- Entire body, just anything that is,
that taxes the spinal mechanics.
I don't, I could tell you my beliefs.
It's studied, it is, okay?
We can just keep the discussion on that short like that.
So we start looking at those different vectors
that we're training in.
So this is why, this is important to understand.
So I'm not just getting into nuance here.
So, hey, squatting is gonna make me jump further
'cause it's legs.
Well, squatting is an axial load vector
and jumping is a vector this way.
So actually hip thrust would help with your,
and this is proven in science,
with your forward jumping ability.
They're both working similar muscles, the glute extension,
but they're working it in those different platforms.
So it's really important to understand
because people don't understand.
I'm building my work capacity by doing sled pushes.
You're not developing your work capacity for squatting.
- Most movements, even ones as holistic as a squat,
require specialization.
- Yeah.
- You can't get strong at the squat by doing--
- You're gonna have some carry over, right, obviously.
But because taking an untrained person that hasn't done it
is still not gonna do as good as somebody
that's done nonspecific work but done work.
So, but yes, for the most part.
- To get truly strong, you need to specialize.
- So, but not all the time.
So now we talk about quality.
So, and if we specialize in the same thing too long,
we stagnate because the body adapts to a certain point
and just can't make progress.
So we wanted to save the actual squatting
in the pattern with the bar that I was doing
for the very end.
So starting a year out,
I started doing work front squatting.
Like a squat, axial loaded pattern,
and worked on maximizing that up.
Then I started shifting to doing transformer bar squat.
It's this bar I developed that actually changed,
manipulates spinal mechanics.
So I started loading in these more forward positions
and being able, again, so now I'm getting closer
than a front squat but not quite squatting.
And then I would start adjusting that bar
every training cycle to closer to a squat,
toaster to a squat till it finally was, right?
- What's the difference between a front squat
and a regular, like a back squat?
Like in terms of the stress on the body, the mechanics,
was there something interesting to be said about,
like how fundamentally different are they?
- So it's interesting, people think about the weight
in position to them, like, oh, the bar's in front of me,
the bar's behind me, which is not the case.
The bar is above your midfoot.
The load is above your midfoot.
So we're actually manipulating the spine behind the bar.
So we're causing spinal uprighting behind the bar,
getting in a more erect position,
which is gonna change the relationship of the hip angle,
it's gonna change our ability to maintain the spine,
it's going to change how much the core comes in,
how hard it is to maintain that sternum
to diaphragm relationship that we talked about.
All this stuff starts changing.
- So the bar stays in the same place.
The bar's still behind you, but the load moves around.
But we're actually manipulating the spine around the load.
- It's incredible.
- We can tailor it to an athlete,
which is great when you got a seven foot plus tall
baseball player or a basketball player.
That's why we work with all these teams.
Anyway, so it's like you're taking something
and getting closer and closer to it.
At the same time, we're looking at the qualities.
So like, I needed to be able to really hold
this torso position with the weight moving up here.
Now, unlike the deadlift, the ability to manage
this TL position becomes much more challenging.
So that was also why I was choosing the transformer bar,
because it actually challenges that more
in those big forward positions.
I was also working on my back strength tremendously
to be able to hold and maintain position.
So there was a lot of like, I chose a bent over rows.
So bent over row is a mixed vector.
So it's a forward to back.
So it wouldn't have as much carrier,
but it's also got some axial loading component
in it as well.
So we're working on that.
And then as we get closer and closer to competition,
I'm developing those strengths,
but now I need to start tapering those out.
So all of my recovery needs can now go into
the more specific that I'm actually ramping the load up.
So as I'm ramping the load on the weight,
I'm able to ramp it a lot faster
because I'm tapering out the other stuff.
So I can still keep my total load high,
but now get it very, very specific.
- Wow.
- So everything that I've done has always been
kind of an annual training cycle.
And then again, this was like a,
this was a five-year training cycle,
but we just kind of walked through the last year of each
and you can see how these concepts play out in reality.
- So in the cycling, so this is both for you,
but also for more recreational strength athletes,
let's say there's variety injected into the system.
- You need variety.
Yeah, yeah.
Because you will basically stagnate at some level, right?
So you should always be kind of shifting a little bit.
So three to four month blocks in general for an average,
you know, just a gen pop fitness is pretty good.
Where you're going to spend more time,
maybe in a higher rep range or lower rep range,
a little bit more work on endurance capacity,
or maybe some more time,
hey, I'm playing around with boxing or jujitsu
or something like that.
Bring that a little bit more to the front,
forefront for a while and bring the other out.
But like mixing those variables up,
but trying to keep the total load the same
and always kind of like, do we add a little more?
Again, it doesn't have to be major
and it shouldn't be major.
You don't want these big jumps.
You don't go, oh my God, let's move.
Let's jump into squatting every day.
You've got to build the capacity to do that.
It's simple.
- What role would you say strength has
in sports that combine skill and strength?
So for me personally, maybe I'll just ask it selfishly,
which is grappling, wrestling, MMA.
- Yeah.
How about I start with baseball?
- Please.
- No, I would.
- Okay.
- I know the sport.
- Baseball and golf are two of my favorite sports.
No, you don't have to be in shape at all
to excel at those sports.
- Well, here's the thing.
- There we go.
We're gonna get this argument.
- Well, I've got a perfect example
because this is why I sell so many transformer bars
into the major league baseball.
So they get these people that come in, these athletes,
that have been baseball their whole life.
It is part of the culture.
And so they're great athletes.
They've got all the skill.
§10Transcript · 1:17:47–1:25:37
The only thing they have to do
is develop a little bit more resilience
so that they don't have the injury.
They can push their training a little bit more.
That we can add a little bit more force output
and be able to recover from it.
So the only thing they've got to do
is add some training,
but there's no training culture there.
So they don't have any experience,
which is why they love the transformer bar
because they don't have to worry
about teaching the technique.
We can actually set the bar on a setting
that makes their squats perfect
by queuing all the stuff
with actually not having to coach it.
Because when you're coaching a room full of athletes,
it's really hard to teach the nuance of all this
and not sure that all that.
But that's all that they have to do with these players
with a huge level of skill.
So once you reach a certain level of skill,
adding strength is the only real forward path.
So that's the basic simple answer to that.
- So one of the benefits there
being like injury prevention actually.
- Injury prevention, resilience.
Because especially fighting sports,
you're going to be challenged and thrown
and other things happen to you.
And the more resilient you can make your structures,
the better you're gonna be.
Even a cyclist, mountain biking.
Why would they need it?
Why would they need to do upper body training?
Take a crash, your shoulder's gone.
You're done, your career's over.
Unless you've done a little training.
So there's value in all this stuff,
but the resilience is like, that's huge.
And then we can overlay strength.
Where we miss is this focus on strength
when we haven't developed quality motor patterns first.
So this is a huge thing with children
because people wanna know
what's the appropriate training age.
I'd have had my daughter training before my son
because she developed movement patterns
that have better quality earlier.
There's no age because it's gonna be
very dependent on the individual.
There's no point in having adaptation
if we don't have the right thing to adapt to yet.
- And that applies to general movement, but also to sport.
So you're saying the skills should be developed first
and then the strength applied on top of that.
- Yep.
- Maybe you can educate me,
but I actually quit lifting and power lifting
for a long time after I started judo,
jiu-jitsu, grappling, all this sort of combat sports
because I found that it was preventing me
from relaxing my body enough to load in the skill.
- So this isn't a problem with the training.
This is a problem with you.
- Yeah.
So this is actually really, really important.
The first product I ever released was a loadable mace,
a swinging mace.
And because every power lifter and body,
well, not every, but most serious power lifters
and bodybuilders, like shoulders,
mobility is pretty limited.
And most of them really, really struggle with this.
The problem is they've been taught
to have tension all the time.
And that's not good.
So when we talk about like the joint positions
that we were talking about earlier
and having those and the muscles
in the right length and tension relationship,
athleticism is the speed to relaxation
because the counter is speed to contraction.
Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee, right?
And so what a mace can do is use that
'cause this ties back into a developmental kinesiology
'cause a lot of like reset patterns
are getting back into these basic movements,
but it's as much about relaxation as it is contraction.
Okay?
So a mace, we have this weight on a big long lever.
So if I grab a kettlebell,
and this would be like the same movement
as a kettlebell halo.
It is the same movement as a kettlebell.
But here in the halo, I'm on the whole time.
With the mace at the proper length
with the right distribution, you cannot do the movement.
You could not move, force your way through it.
The only way that you can accomplish that is by relaxing.
And then now we can contract all the muscles
related around that shoulder girdle all at once.
We're working on, off, on, off, on, off
with moving and contracting.
And now, so what happens a lot of times
as this stiffness and tightness happens,
if we're in poor positions,
we start using stabilizer muscles to do the movement.
And then that's where this stiffness come from.
So it means that in some of whatever training
that you're doing,
there's a deficit in the movement quality.
Okay.
Or there's a deficit in the training program
and you're not recovering from.
And 80% of the time, that's the right answer, right?
But yeah, that's where the gap is
and learning how to relax.
And the way a lot of the exercises are taught
and have been taught for a long time,
which is why there's a big gap.
And this is why both clinical rehab
and all these other components are mixed in my philosophy
and what I'm trying to do with Kabuki strength.
Because I'm looking at holistic movement.
I'm not looking at powerlifting.
Base movements are what I want to load
and be able to assess on.
But this affects all sports, all activities.
And strength doesn't have to be that.
I mean, I'm freaking a thousand pound squatter
and deadlifter.
If you watch any of my videos
where I do like complete quad fallbacks,
I don't stretch at all.
I can usually get close to a full split,
like if I want to.
- What?
No, I did not see those videos.
- Okay.
- That's hard to believe.
Wow, okay.
- Well, actually I do.
I just did one recently,
a quad fallback with my mace loaded way out to the end,
torsioning on both ends of the other.
And like, I do a lot of weird stuff.
- That's awesome.
Okay.
- Squatting doesn't make your hips tight.
Squatting like shit makes your hips tight.
And so, but there is no perfect world.
We're always, our training program isn't quite perfect.
Our movement isn't necessarily perfect.
Like, so you're going to have the needs for this stuff.
But if you're always have to do some soft tissue work
to loosen up the same one for that exercise,
to be able to get a joint in position,
there is a problem.
And I'm not saying don't do it, do it,
because I don't want you to have a joint.
Like if I can't get my shoulders in a position,
I can't do overhead presses
because I'm going to compromise my spine position.
Then I'm going to end up with some other problems, right?
So go ahead and clean that up so you can get in position,
but go figure out why it is and fix it.
And then maybe next, you know, three, four months from now,
they're going to get a little something else going on.
Fix it, but go understand the deeper root reason of why.
So I'm, I believe I am the only company
manufacturing and selling, you know,
fascial soft tissue tools.
And I'll tell you, I don't want you to use them.
- 'Cause it's not helping you get to the why,
why it was caused in the first place.
- Yeah.
The goal, the goal, the perfect state
is not having to use them.
Reality is you're going to have to use them
from time to time because the world's not perfect.
- Yeah.
- So your discovery is a hundred percent on point.
- Well, there's another side to combat sports.
When you're beginning a particular combat sport,
strength can be a negative because human psychology,
because you can get away with a lot when you're stronger.
- Yes, you can.
- So if your mind is strong enough
to where you can just turn off that advantage
and be a beginner truly in a particular art,
that's probably the best way to do it.
- But you can get away and then you don't learn.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- It's hard.
It's hard not to use the little advantages you have
because like jujitsu is a big hit on the ego for,
you know, especially guys,
§11Transcript · 1:25:39–1:33:33
you know, when like a smaller person just destroys you,
dominates you, when you can, I don't know,
deadlift whatever number of pounds.
And it's hard not to use that strength
to then resist the, slow the ultimate destruction
by like 120 pound.
- But that, and that's why I recommend
developing the skill quality first,
but it doesn't mean that you can't.
- You can't, that's right.
- You can still do it.
So that don't take it as a like,
oh, I can't go that direction.
That's fine, but understand those things.
And then also understand
that jujitsu is additional load on the body.
- Yeah.
- So you have to, you can't just add it on top.
- Yeah.
- You've got to taper back the other,
you're gonna have to make a,
I'm sorry, you may not want to hear it,
but you're not gonna be able to do as much
and add that here.
- Yeah.
- So you have to compromise
because your total volume still has to be there.
And there's not, unfortunately,
not really a way to measure
what the jujitsu volume is with this.
So you've got to take a look at that.
And that's where like measuring like heart rate variability
or other stuff can be useful.
So you can see what is happening for me
from a sympathetic versus parasympathetic
nervous system standpoint.
- Yeah, making sure your body recovers efficiently
and trying to put numbers to it.
You mentioned Kabuki strength.
You run the Kabuki strength lab,
previously called the Elite Performance Center in Oregon.
You called it the perfect gym.
What makes for the perfect strength training gym?
- Where I called it the perfect gym?
- In a video somewhere I watched.
- Oh man.
I mean, that's where my testing grounds
for developing all this stuff was through the years.
And so this is, like I said,
I started developing relationships
with the best developmental kinesiologist in the US,
the best, arguably the best
or most well-known physical therapist in the world,
the best spine biomechanist in the world.
I started doing continuing education
with these clinical courses and learning this stuff
and going, but how does it work in my world?
And then I started lecturing with them
and all this other stuff,
but the lab was like, where do we test this stuff?
And so let me get to a point, there's three things.
There's always three things.
So to be a success, to achieve success,
I believe there's three things
that really, really come into place.
And it's the right methodology,
the right tools and the right environment.
And so it was all about building that.
And so the methodologies came from a lot of that different,
that gray area, interaction of clinical
with sports science, right?
And then the tools I had to start creating and designing,
and then the environment is having this focused environment
of people that want to do better and push each other
and having community and culture, right?
I ended up building these connections, this network.
Everything that I'm doing with my businesses
is trying to create that into a scalable fashion.
And so I'm building the groundwork
because to have a system that like, yeah,
I had clinicals on site that knew exactly what we were doing
and when it's me and a few people in a small team
and all this stuff, we're all just like easy to manage.
And you can see these, there's other models around this.
So I've been other areas since maybe whenever it was,
I filmed that video that said that,
that they have that same model.
And it's taken probably about a decade usually
to develop that, you know,
and having the right people in this community,
they can create this network and all this stuff, right?
Except they still don't have the best tools
because Kabuki strength didn't exist.
(laughing)
And so out of that was,
is essentially I started building this business
and people like,
when did you know how all this stuff was connected?
And I'm like, I don't know.
I didn't, I just started creating on the outset
the things that worked until finally I'm like,
oh, I'm recreating a scalable version of this stuff.
Here's the methodologies and a coaching platform
that we can manage clients around the globe
and see what's working
and not based on the scientific principles of training.
Right?
How do we create that into a database
that now we can train new coaches
and they can use those same metrics and tools
to create programs that are tailored
to fit person's individual needs, right?
Now, how do we integrate that with assessment
and clinical care assessment and all these other pieces?
So there's a lot of work in that.
And so that's where Kabuki strength is the genesis,
but we have, we call our gym, the Kabuki strength lab.
Literally people find about our gym in the neighborhood
and they're like, how long have you been here?
Why do I not know about this?
We don't advertise our gym at all.
They're like, that makes no sense.
Well, that's 'cause the only reason
is to have a testing environment
for the tools and methodology
and having enough people to have the culture and fit
and to be able to be part of the experiment.
- What about the environment of the feel of it?
The actual gym?
There's a, I don't know, a grunginess to it.
I've recently became a member of Planet Fitness.
(both laughing)
For reasons that have to do more with the heat in Austin
that sometimes I need to put in time on the treadmill.
I don't like that gym.
- I don't have any judgment, honestly, I don't.
- The best gyms I've been in are kind of dirty.
- You walk in and you know that work is to be done.
- Yes.
- There's not another reason to do there.
It is, the environment is tight.
There's a big piece of that.
I know it's studied sociologically, I believe.
I just, I just butchered that word too.
(both laughing)
But the intensity, when you start growing a space,
the intensity drops.
And so I had that experience when we grew,
we went from a 4,000 foot to a 9,000 square foot gym
at one time.
And everybody's like, it doesn't feel the same.
Like if people are complaining for years,
we've shrunk it back down.
Well, we're down to 3,500 square feet
and it creates that intensity.
It creates the closest,
the connection with the people around you.
And then, like I said, the grunginess,
like you go in, you know the intention when you walk in.
That environment creates that tension.
But when I speak environment, it's not just the,
it's not the physical, it's the people.
- But you know when the gym is a little bit beat up?
- Yes.
- It also tells a story, like there's a history to it.
You could tell that not only is there work to be done,
that work has been done here.
- Yes.
- Like battles have been fought.
There's something to that where you're just
in a long line of people that fought and won.
- And we could get into a whole nother space,
so this would be a whole nother topic,
but that existing energy of a space.
- I mean, we mentioned offline Joe Rogan.
He talks about the same with comedy clubs.
There's certain clubs that just have a history.
There's an energy there.
You can get all woo-woo, but you know, it's there.
- It's a real thing, I think.
You walk in and you can feel it.
- And you feel it.
- You feel it, yeah.
- That makes me feel that somehow all of us humans
are connected in ways that's hard to describe,
even the ones who are no longer here.
Just the greatness that once was is still in the walls,
in the space, present there.
- Yeah.
- And we somehow can plug into that energy.
- Yeah, it's, we can go down a path there.
- There's something really powerful there.
You've also mentioned a bunch of cool equipment
that you've developed as part of Kabuki Strength.
Probably a little bit of that has to do
with your engineering education,
but also just generally with the spirit
of the innovator that you are.
What are some cool, maybe revolutionary pieces
of equipment that you're particularly proud of
§12Transcript · 1:33:35–1:40:55
or just you've been obsessed with recently?
- Yeah. - That you're developing?
- Love to talk about that.
So we've got some wild, crazy stuff
that just came out and is coming out too.
So everything that we create and release at Kabuki Strength,
the industry hasn't seen before.
There's stuff that's basic foundational
that's been around forever because it works.
But there's always more.
It could be better.
And why are we not looking at these things,
these foundational things?
So when people are coming up with novel things,
they end up being way different outside the perspective.
And I'm coming up with things that are way different
that are plays on what we already know works.
So we talked about the transform bar,
the only bar in the world.
We can manipulate spinal mechanics.
So everything for me from a design concept
that we develop is all about creating products
that can rapidly accommodate to the variability
of an individual's leverages, mobility, and training needs.
And that's gonna also create and distill down the size
and scope of space that we need,
which is gonna continue to be an ongoing thing.
Check out my Instagram after this, and you'll see,
I put an entire gym on the bed of my truck
and went on vacation last week, drove to the desert.
- Oh no, that's so awesome.
- And by entire gym, I mean squat rack,
full compliment of our specialty bars,
a horizontal and vertical pulley system,
handheld weights, shoulder,
like a complete, an entire gym in product
that took up the space, the size of this bed right here.
- That's incredible.
- Because of the design scope of what we have.
So the cool thing is that there's two other bars
that fit our biomechanically sound barbell lines.
We talked about the transformer bar.
The other two are built on this thing
I called playground physics.
So we have these bars with handles
that are off parallel with the axis.
So they've been around the market for a long time.
One is a hex bar or a trap bar.
Another one is a, it's a pressing bar
with the handles turned as well.
And both of them suck.
They're horrible.
Anytime, any lifter knows if you pick it up,
it's going to break your wrist and crush into your face.
And it just doesn't feel good pressing,
but it alleviates the strain on the wrist.
So people use it for that reason.
And the trap bar, same thing.
It's always diving forward in your hand.
So it's kind of limited.
It's also limited in use
because you could do a lot more with it.
So these bars are really cool, playground physics.
So as soon as the center of rotation
is on the same axis as the center of mass
and the handle is off center, you have a teeter-totter.
So a teeter-totter has a balance point,
but it's infinitely perfect.
So technically you can never find it.
It's always going to be sitting on one side
or the other in a playground.
And that's what these bars are designed.
So you got instability right here.
You can't find the center.
The bar is always trying to tip in your hands
on the trap bar.
So you can't do carries with it
'cause you're doing for momentum
and it wants to dip on you, right?
The Swiss bar wants to crush your face.
Well, what do we do?
We just make a swing.
Put center of mass below center of rotation.
And what does it do?
Oh, it always finds center.
So the handles on our pressing bar,
it's arced so that the handles are above center of rotation.
And then every angle,
instead of just being a certain fixed angles,
each angle is based on the width,
the average width of an individual.
So the internal and external rotational bias
is based of the shoulder, is based on the width,
leaving just a little bit left
because we talked about the lat being a stabilizer.
You still need to have a little bit of cue
of external rotation to engage that as a stabilizer.
Boom.
Now, all of a sudden you have a bar
and I kid you not, this is a great story.
Major League Baseball, when I presented it,
every head strength coach for a Major League Baseball team,
maybe not every, but damn near most of them,
have bad shoulders.
They can't press, they've got shoulder surgeries, so on.
And so we're showing, they love all our stuff.
And I'm like, "Hey, I've got this cool prototype
I wanna show you, it's a pressing bar."
And they're like, "Oh, you know,
Major League Baseball is a little hesitant on pressing
'cause of the dangers for the shoulder."
And I haven't been able to take a bar to my chest.
I mean, I'd really love to.
It's been five years since I've been able
to XX train and I'm like, "Just try it."
Like, I can't even get a bar to my chest without pain.
I'm like, "Just try it."
Put it in there.
Ooh, that feels good.
Now, the arc makes it actually three inches deeper.
So people are automatically scared.
I can't do that 'cause that's an extra range of motion.
I'm like, "Ooh, put a plate on there."
They're doing it.
By that time, the staff's like, they're all standing around.
You see like, "What's going on?"
"Put two plates on."
You see the, just like, he gets up.
"How do you feel?"
Like, "I feel fine.
No pain at all."
I did this with five teams,
with five of the, it happening repeatedly five times.
And every one of them worked up to two plates
and did reps varied with zero pain
to a three inch greater range of motion.
'Cause what did we do?
We stacked all the joints
and we provided stability at the end.
We balanced internal and external rotation.
I mean, just basic playground physics
and it changed the game.
Now we get a greater range of motion
with a greater training effect
with the negative stresses removed.
Our trap bar opened up one side,
which there was already something like that out there.
Created, it pops up so you can pick up,
take the weights on and off.
It's got a built-in jack.
And then created the high handle position,
which already did it.
Everybody uses the high handle on a trap bar.
They just don't know why they like it.
The handle that's on center, we offset just a little bit.
Not enough to make a difference
on the range of motion lift or even notice visibly,
but it still has the same effect.
So both handles now have that.
We added the option of different handle sizes
based on whatever your needs are,
even a one that rolls to develop a grip.
And then different widths that you could choose from
based on whether you're training a teen athlete
or a seven foot six NBA player or a NFL lineman
so that we can accommodate for all these differences.
And so, and then now it becomes the most functional
all around bar around
because now you can do carries with it.
You can do split squats with it.
You could do curls with it because it goes around the body.
You can do overhead presses
because you don't have a thing that gets in your way
and you can flip it up into position.
You can do bent over rows and not run into your shins.
You can do seal rows off of a bench.
You can do ab rollouts.
You could, should I go on?
Yeah, so you could use it as like the main bar.
The best multi-purpose bar around.
You got a home gym, one bar.
Like how do you develop totally new equipment like this?
I scratch it on paper.
Maybe weld some cut up and weld up a prototype.
But usually I just hand the scratched up paper
to my engineering manager.
And that's what he says his job is
to distill my chicken scratch into something real.
And then that team picks it up.
But in the old days, starting out,
I just walk out and do it.
You talk about engineering.
I'm actually more, I work more of an artist fashion.
It's in my head and I just go create with no plans.
And so they have to pick that up
and actually do the engineering and testing and all that.
And then we got two other products came out this year.
Freaking wild.
Are you familiar with training with a flywheel?
No, it's a flywheel.
§13Transcript · 1:40:57–1:48:48
Maybe I am.
A flywheel is a spinning object
that creates an inertial mass.
Yeah.
And then it reverses direction.
So whatever you put into it, and there's ones out there,
but ours is the first patent pending.
That's everything all in one unit.
So it's a floor-based as well as a horizontal.
So you can basically do any pulley movement in the world.
And now everything that you put into it
on a concentric force, it whips right back
as peak centric load.
Gotcha.
So it's an accelerating whipping motion.
It just, yeah, basically.
Yeah.
I mean, okay, I have trouble imagining exactly.
Many of the things you're describing,
I suppose have to be experienced, right?
Yes.
'Cause there's a magic to it.
And there's a lot of research they've been around.
They're adopted more heavily in Europe,
quite heavily in Europe, but not as much in the US
because they sell them as a be all end all tool,
which they're not.
They're crazy for what they do, but it's not the,
it's another tool.
And so we have a very high quality unit now
that is half the cost of everybody else's
because the innovation of a movable mount point
that for them, you have to have two pieces of equipment.
We have one.
So, and then a few other things,
better platform to be able to do things
and that we can do what we call off-platform work,
which allows us to do movements like punches
and standups, things like that.
And then I've got a handheld weight coming out next month
that we can actually play with.
So varying the load with it,
never leaving your hand by changing the leverage point.
And so what that-
- What exercise are we talking about here?
- Anything that would be a dumbbell or a kettlebell movement.
So it functions, it does the function of a kettlebell,
a dumbbell, and what we call a center mass bell,
as well as provides variable loading within a range.
- So how can you change, like, how can you change the load?
- Because load, well, we don't actually change the load.
We change the torque on the joint that we're working,
which is the same.
That's actually what is creating the force, right?
So if I'm doing a front raise,
it's where this downward force is
times the distance away, right?
Which also then makes it no force
when I've got at the bottom of the front raise,
which is why it's so easy.
With this, it's like a kettlebell.
It's offset, except it has three different handles,
but it's offset just that a kettlebell,
you can't do it because the offset so far,
it becomes a wrist movement.
So ours has three different sizes
and the offset just enough so that you can pick,
if I put it in a front raise position or a curl position,
I could put it in an outward position
and the force is almost what it is at the top,
but then I get to the top
and it's the same exact or the curl.
So I can actually change the force curve in the movement.
And then I can just release the pressure a little bit
and let it swing into position
and keep doing a drop set with never letting it down.
Yeah, so it's got a really nice texture grip
that allows you to hold it in different positions.
And then the load offset is just enough
that it doesn't overpower the wrist.
And then you got different hand sizes
so that you can maximize this relationship
and hit whatever joint that you're applying.
- That sounds incredible.
- It's really freaking, well, it's awesome
'cause you can, because of the variable load,
now I could go straight from front raises
to side raises or rear or curl because--
- Without like putting it down.
- Because I don't have to put it down.
So now my time under tension goes through the roof.
And by the way, the same effect with a flywheel trainer,
because the variable,
whatever you put into it is what it kicks back.
So you have an constant time under tension
'cause there's no rest points either.
So all this stuff is working
on maximizing time under tension, which anyway,
it's cool stuff. - That's fascinating.
- Anyway, I get excited.
- Well, let me ask you about another thing
you've already mentioned,
but I find this really interesting,
which is barefoot running.
And your sort of company,
Barefoot Athletics, B-E-A-R,
and the tagline is optimizing the human to ground interface.
We've talked about this a little bit with the power lifting.
How do you think about the foot ground interface?
- It's interesting that we know
that we should train all these parts of our body
to be able to be stronger, be more resilient.
But we think that the foot is different,
that we need to package it and modify it.
And somehow that that's the science of making it healthy.
Where I challenge people, think about that.
Like first thing you do in the morning
is roll out of bed and put your weightlifting belt on
and wrap it on tight and wear it
till you go to bed at night.
Do it with your shoulders, your knees.
Put it, wake up and put some knee wraps on, okay?
And elbow wraps and see what happens.
One, you'll get weaker, you'll lose movement capacity
and you'll start affecting other areas of the body
very negatively because they will start picking up
the compensation for those joints
that are not moving properly.
This is it.
What shoes are for is to protect you from the environment,
from cuts and abrasions and heat and things like that.
But the foot, let me, the mind blowing
is like every other area of the body.
You need to use it and you need to strengthen it
and you need to learn to control it.
That's it.
That's all I have to say about the subject, okay?
It's that simple but somehow we have been sold
entire industries like the orthotics industry.
It's completely false.
Meta analysis of the data shows that orthotics
do nothing beyond temporary relief from pain
over a six, eight week period of time
and provide no long-term benefit.
And I can't tell you how many people
I've eliminated back or knee or hip pain
from working on strengthening and controlling
the foot and ankle complex.
We believe we've villainized and said,
a low arch is a condition that needs fixed.
Like when it really is just controlling
the foot and ankle complex and how they relate
to each other and how we use that.
Is it like, go put on boxing gloves in the morning
and do that for the next 20 years and see what happens.
It's not about finding the right shoe that fits
because your foot has been deformed.
And so I'm not like some wacky, like,
oh, you gotta be barefoot forever or do this.
Like, no, I'm just saying, go spend some time using it.
Strengthen it, learn to control it
and you will work better in a shoe.
But the whole running shoe movement with the raised heel,
that was the person that suggested that to Nike way back
when they were trying to figure out what to do,
the reason, and he says it's the worst thing
that he ever did because we were coming from an era
of people wearing heeled shoes,
which by the way came from stirrups way back in the day.
That's where the whole heel came from is to go into stirrup,
but then it went into fashion.
And then the running craze started coming around
in the '70s.
They're starting to push this, the general mass population,
and they realized that they were causing injuries.
And like, what are we gonna do?
Well, that's because everybody was in this position
and had a shortened calf muscle.
And it's like, well, to work around,
let's just put a heel on it so we don't injure them.
That's it.
And now, because the raised heel,
you gotta raise the toe.
And then now with that, if you go stand on something
and pull your inner toe in, and in a squat position,
just reach down and do it,
you'll see that you have no control over internal
and external rotation of your leg.
You don't.
Or your foot.
And you actually have to put a support in for the arch
to be able to passively control those structures.
It's just Band-Aid on top of Band-Aid on top of Band-Aid.
Use it, strengthen it.
If you wanna wear some shoes 'cause they look good
or fancy, I'm like, I have no problem.
I mean, I go out on a wife,
my wife will put on some high heels every now and again.
But all I'm saying is, use your foot.
My 1,000-pound squat, my 1,000-pound deadlift,
§14Transcript · 1:48:50–1:56:42
we're done barefoot.
I'm not trying to sell you shoes.
Go do it with no shoe.
That's what I've been promoting.
I did that for six years and I promoted it.
But people ask me, well, what do I do?
Because my gym requires shoes.
Where do I go?
And then I go, well, you could pick up
these other finger shoes or whatever.
And they go, man, my wife won't have sex with me
if I do that.
And I go, I know, mine either.
Trust me, I'm not making this up.
Everybody in that market markets to one segment
and they're still missing some gaps
because they still have a little bit too narrow of a toe box.
And if you're lifting, you have the opportunity
to really get that splay and start working
on this stuff better.
So I just wanted to create a shoe.
These ones are odd colored
'cause it's a partnership with Kabuki.
Normally we've got a black or a gray,
low top, high top, sticks to the ground for lifting
so we can do that.
And very pliable.
It's a moccasin.
It's a modern day moccasin.
But looks okay that you can wear it around in other areas
if you so choose.
You know what the number one healthcare cost in America is?
- What's that?
- Diabetes, heart disease, cancer, low back pain.
- Now what do you attribute low back pain to?
- Well, it's attributed to a lot of things,
but inability to control spinal position,
which starts happening from some breathing issues.
It also happens from the foot.
So there's a lot of stuff,
but everything that I do actually focuses on improving this.
- Yeah.
- And it all starts with the feet.
- This is one thing.
Like this doesn't affect breathing,
but so it does actually affect breathing
to some extent and spinal stabilization.
So the raised heel and toe will make you stride further
because of just how it operates.
But that overstride is a result of opening this.
So we open the pelvis and diaphragm.
Did we talk about that and the impact that that has
for controlling and spine?
Yeah, I think we touched on that.
But all this stuff plays together.
- So the gait affects that.
And so the shoe affects the gait.
And then so it's all connected.
- All connected.
Let me be very purposeful
with some conversation here though.
We've talked about periodization.
This was a big gap.
So people go, yeah, well,
when people started running with those,
they started having injuries
back when the finger company produced those
and didn't do the education around this very simple concept.
You do not walk into the gym if you haven't squatted
and start squatting 225 for max reps every week,
day or every day over day.
And that's what people did
because they weren't told that
you need to build the capacity to do this.
You go wear these and walk around in your office
or wherever all day long,
your feet are gonna hurt.
They're gonna be sore.
Do it for 10% of your time.
Do that for a month, then add some.
That will build the capacity to do this.
And then that's gonna start having
the ability to strengthen, manage the foot.
And there's a whole lot of other stuff.
I've got videos on things that you can do.
Buy whatever you want
or just spend some time out of them.
That's all that I want people to do
because it is so simple
and it has such a profound impact.
- It does.
What I did--
- I noticed when I walked in.
I was like, "Oh, hey, you're spending some time
"without the shoes on."
(both laughing)
- Well, what I did,
I think it's already now two years ago
when I was doing a lot of running,
I'd do a 10-mile run.
I would take my shoes off for the last half mile
and I'd run like that.
And that was, for me, really helpful
to ensure that I have proper form.
Form that minimizes pain on the way I run.
I still like shoes.
I benefit a lot from shoes,
the protection they provide,
but it's for running we're referring to,
especially trail running and so on.
And in the city when there's glass
and all those kinds of things.
But it's really important to have minimal
sort of protection on your feet.
For me, at least it was to figure out
the ways that my form, basic movement,
and the positioning in the foot,
the impact of the foot,
and everything, the lower leg,
the entirety of the torso, really,
how it's improperly positioned
in terms for the objective of minimizing pain.
And the barefoot running really helped fix that for me.
'Cause I figured out that I need to take shorter steps,
more frequent, all those kinds of things.
And that really helps you figure that out.
- Like, let's be realist about stuff.
Like, spend some time using it, strengthen it.
And I've got some great ways to do that
and learn how to do that.
So, yeah.
- What is a good diet for strength development?
I've, just to give you some context,
I've been eating mostly meat.
Not for strength, mostly for mental performance.
I just enjoy it.
- Yes, you need to have a base level
of protein building blocks for tissue, right?
We need to have enough fats to be able to have
hormones work and key processes in the body.
We need to have, well, you don't need to have
from a performance aspect carbohydrates necessarily,
because the other ones can convert into injury sources.
But for a performance athlete,
carbohydrates can be very beneficial as well.
So, I look at it as you need a base level fats,
you need a base level of proteins,
and then you adjust the carbohydrate intake
based on the needs.
I'm not anti-carbohydrate by any means.
'Cause a lot of people, well, they look at me now
when they see how lean I am,
and they jump to a conclusion.
You must be keto, you must be carnivore,
you must be whatever.
And it's like, so losing and gaining weight
is simply eating less or eating more.
I mean, and we get so complicated.
Oh, what's your fasting window?
If I'm doing fasting, it's just because it works
with my environment.
Sometimes I do it, sometimes I don't.
All that does is control how much calories that you take.
Big success with keto and carnivore diets.
It's hard to eat a lot and put on weight with those diets.
Protein actually has a thermogenic effect.
And so, you have to have a massive amount of fats
if you have a only meat diet,
because you can literally starve to death.
There's a show where they put people out in the wilderness,
and this guy, the one that won,
one of the ones I looked at,
and they threw him way up past the way out there.
There was nothing, but he somehow got a caribou
and killed it.
And he still lost a pound a day for 30 days with a caribou,
because his fat was stolen by a...
And he could eat all the meat he wanted,
and then he almost got pulled because his weight loss.
But that isn't actually a performance.
So, those type keto and carnivore are not performance diets.
So, they're not gonna be as effective
at supplying the energy needs for high capacity training.
So, don't get me wrong, you can do training,
but you can be a successful athlete with a vegan diet,
but it's not as easy to do it with other diets.
So, and you're missing some base nutrients.
So many nutrients in meat.
I believe having greens in your diet is really beneficial.
Lots of research, but there's people in the other worlds
that argue that you don't need them,
but they help clear organs, provide micronutrients,
all this sort of stuff.
So, I eat simply a whole well-rounded diet,
and I've gone from, I can go from 285 pounds,
squatting a ton of weight, to eating less
and dropping all the way down to seven, 8% body fat
with veins standing out everywhere without a tissue on me,
just with amazing, great tasting food.
To lose weight or be healthy does not mean
§15Transcript · 1:56:45–2:05:30
that you need to eat flavorless, bland food.
So, that's the main point I try to get across.
- It's eat less to lose weight, eat more to gain weight.
- Yep, make sure that you've got enough protein.
Make sure that you've got your micronutrients covered,
which is gonna cover by eating real food.
Don't go low fat, no fat.
If you want a performance, don't go no carb,
but if it works, any of those things.
So, diet approach.
When you look at diets, understand that they're,
how aggressive they are.
So, like keto can make you lose a lot of weight.
Carnivore can make you lose a lot of weight.
A lot of that up front is actually dropping glycogen stores.
So, you're actually just reducing water
in your muscle and fat tissue,
so, which is why it isn't as great for a performance diet.
But understand that every diet also has a level of discipline
and does it fit your lifestyle.
So, I suggest people don't find a diet.
You need to find a lifestyle because that's what's sustainable.
I hate the word diet to begin with.
What behaviors are sustainable?
And then do that, and then over time,
the things you'll get to where you need to get.
Diet itself, just by the name of it,
is not sustainable because it is a short term thing
to get somewhere.
- Yeah, I tend to try to measure it
'cause I definitely have a love-hate relationship with food.
I tend to look back and say,
by following this particular protocol, lifestyle, whatever,
what was the level of happiness?
- Yes.
- So, not like weight loss or weight gain
or all those kinds of things.
It's the entirety of the picture.
Productivity, just feeling good throughout the day.
Socially also, like interacting with people
because so much of human connection,
like I mentioned before, is over food.
And if you're gonna limit yourself in that regard,
you're limiting a certain fundamental aspect of life.
- A number of years ago,
I did like 20 to 22 hour fasts every day.
And I'm like, well, this doesn't work.
I can't do business lunches and stuff like that.
So, when I was in my fasting thing,
I went to a 16 so I could have a light lunch
just for the social aspect of it
and to perform that.
- That's funny.
- And then that's why the typical bodybuilding,
like the eight meal a day diet,
has never worked for me because I've always been
a very bit, like trying to fit that
between meetings and other stuff.
What that diet provides is that just,
you get less bloat and distention of a larger meal.
But at the end of the day, you get the same exact results.
Pick a lifestyle, live that.
You can have really great tasting food.
And that, to me, is the same.
And this is why I'm really hitting this point
because also with the dieting and the approach,
like, oh, I'm gonna do this.
And people pick these chicken and broccoli recipes
and guess what?
You're going to break.
If you do not enjoy it, you will break.
So, it is a very important point.
- Well, I also slightly push back or maybe to elaborate,
if you don't enjoy moderation,
for me particularly, I have trouble moderating
certain things, most foods, I would say.
So, my source of happiness comes with foods,
even if they're bland, the ones I can enjoy,
but enjoy moderation.
So, there's, I mean, I enjoy every piece of food.
So, it's like, if you can enjoy the full lifestyle,
it's not just the particular experience,
but like the full journey.
- Yep, does it fit your lifestyle?
- Yeah. - Yep.
So, let me ask about a complicated topic
that's sometimes a bit controversial, which is steroids.
It may be TRT, testosterone replacement therapy.
What role does that play in strength training?
- All right, we're gonna go there.
- Let's go there.
- Yeah, but it's an important discussion to have.
I think that it's something that I can be
more transparent on.
In my past, I wasn't able to, due to the career that I had.
So, just like covering that stuff in a public forum,
when you're highly looked at being an executive
for recruiting and other stuff, like,
it was an area I had to just kind of pass on, right?
- Yes.
- Now, I've used steroids.
I've used them since I was 33.
And I basically just use TRT now, after my big squat.
So, for 10 years, I used them.
And there's some interesting components to this.
So, one is just the gray area
of what we call performance enhancing supplements.
So, performance, was it PEDs?
That the line of what defines a PED is ever shifting
and it's shifting based on society norms,
cultural norms, government bodying agencies,
all these sorts of stuff.
So, I'm not making excuses here.
So, I just wanna elaborate before I actually start
digging into the details here.
Because performance enhancing,
I could take sodium bicarbonate
and enhance my ability to perform deadlifts for reps.
Guess what?
I did that for my Guinness World Record
for deadlifts in a minute, okay?
People do it for rowing or other,
they use high capacity type stuff.
It is performance enhancing.
It is a chemical.
It is baking soda.
All right?
They're not able to make it illegal
because everybody eats bread.
Well, not everyone.
And so, it's a little hard to test for,
no matter what you do at any level.
So, that's an extreme example.
But other examples, you were drinking an energy drink
in that cup there a little while ago.
And in America, you can get an energy drink
with 240 milligrams of caffeine in it.
In Canada, that's too dangerous.
You can only get 140.
But you can go buy Ephedra.
And Ephedra is illegal in America.
And so, these things bounce back and forth all the time.
I could take Yohimbi.
And in Europe or Australia,
it is a drug and classified.
In America, it is not.
It's an herbal root.
And a lot, I actually haven't one of my supplements,
except for the overseas version.
Anyway, the point I'm getting is,
no matter what you do at some point,
by someone's standards, you are cheating.
And because it is, you're taking something that,
but you could work around these things
with nutritional ways or other ways
versus taking a chemical.
And there's whole lots of ways to do this.
But it's like, oh no, it's steroids.
It's not.
It's injectable.
It's not.
Well, somewhere, there's a culture or a person
that will say you're cheating, no matter what.
So, it's a self-defined,
you need to define it for yourself
unless you're competing in an organization
that has testing.
Then it's a straight ethical thing.
And it's either right or wrong, in my opinion.
That's kind of the overall dilemma of it is,
if you want to see what you're totally capable of,
you have to decide yourself what's okay or not
to that level.
There is no body that can say something yes or no.
- Yeah, when there's an event like the Olympics,
maybe then you have a standard
that you're all trying to adhere to.
And then it makes sense to keep a certain,
like to be within, there's an ethical imperative.
- So, yeah, I'm not talking about that.
I'm agreeing to compete in this by these rules.
- Yeah, but when you're trying to maximize
your own performance, whatever that journey is,
whatever that goal is, that's a different story.
And it's not easy to figure that out.
- You go, you're just like dancing around the subject,
whatever.
Well, guess what?
I've got a prescription for growth hormone and testosterone.
It's legal for me to take.
And you know what?
A lot of the people that are in front of the camera
in the media, politicians and news people,
and the people that are there saying the no drug stuff,
they're going to anti-aging clinics to look better.
And they have a prescription for growth hormone
and testosterone themselves.
But in their eyes, it's okay.
It is a prescription from their doctor
because they have the money to do it.
§16Transcript · 2:05:33–2:14:44
So it's legal and it's fine.
If I, it's interesting in Oregon,
anybody, and I don't know what other states,
over the age of 16, can, without parents' permission,
by the way, walk into a gender clinic,
and as a female, and get a prescription for testosterone.
But as an athlete, if I've got low testosterone,
I am so low, I've got depression,
I can't have sex with my wife,
it's affecting my quality of life,
I will have to fight tooth and nail
to get testosterone just as a prescription.
And then I will get kicked out of my organization
for competing.
So you understand how gray this stuff gets?
- Do you think the stigma on testosterone
is the reason we're not having a healthy conversation
about when it's proper?
Like, what are the proper uses of testosterone
in an athlete's life and just the regular human life?
- Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, and it's just, it's like anything.
It's like I said, it is lines that we pick and draw.
Anytime you put that out there,
people are going to have different opinions
where those lines are.
So now when it comes to strength,
here's an interesting thing.
In powerlifting, there's tested federations
and non-tested federations.
So we can literally look at the statistical data
and actually find out what do steroids do?
And so it's pretty clear that steroids provide
at about a 10% increase in strength on average over not.
Now, that does take out the fact that steroids
will put you in, allow you to put on more mass
so you'll go up a weight class a lot of times.
So as a whole, you could definitely lift more probably
than the 10% over time, right?
And then we think about steroids as the ability
to just put on muscle.
And here's where things get a little interesting,
even with people that use steroids,
is not understanding the neurological impacts
that steroids have.
'Cause you could take some steroids right now
and be stronger in 10 minutes.
That's clearly not done anything, you know,
from a physiology standpoint to make you stronger,
but we have tapped in neurologically to elicit those gains.
And there's a whole lot that happens neurologically.
- Like how much science is there
in terms of all the different ways you could take steroids,
which kinds of steroids, the timing, the dose,
all of those things to develop the neurological,
the physical, the skeletal, like all the,
you know, you've talked with such depth
about the science of strength building in terms of form,
in terms of the equipment that you use.
It seems like a component, you know,
the use of steroids should be an equal level
of scientific rigor when applying them.
- It is.
Now, the research is harder to get because of what it is,
but there is a lot of research that was done
when they were legal.
So they were legal up in through the,
through I think the mid 80s.
And so a lot of the classical high benefit
to low risk steroids were studied.
And then since then, there's a lot of like designer steroids
or new steroids that have come up
that don't have a lot of research around safety and risk
and things of that nature.
And we can't do that because it's, you know,
because of the legality around these things.
But some of the stuff on the neurological function
is really just understanding how that chemical structure
works and what it's doing to the neurotransmitters,
what it's doing.
And so some of it is really talking to people
that have experience with it.
And the other is understanding those structures
and what they do.
The neurological component, I think,
is more interesting than most
because the most steroids act through
increasing muscle protein synthesis.
That's how you add more muscle
is they have an anti-catabolic effect
and they have a muscle protein synthesis enhancing effect.
So it reduces the amount of muscle that you waste
and increases the amount of muscle that you put on.
But the neurological component is tremendously valuable
for what it can do for your training workout.
Like if I handle more load over time,
I'm going to make more progress.
If I can actually just stimulate more neurological effects
for a specific event, it's gonna have an impact, right?
But there's other ways that you can tap into this too.
Things that you can tap into mentally with great practice,
with meditation and other stuff
that will have the same effect.
People probably think I'm over speaking,
especially steroid users that are listening to this.
Well, at least I'm talking out my ass, but I'm not.
Because I have experience with this stuff on both ends.
And some of those areas,
a lot of people don't have the experience with that.
- What I've kind of heard from people
is the confidence that comes with steroids.
It feels like, not to call it placebo,
but it seems like the psychological benefits
of steroids is huge.
And that you feel like there's a confidence
that seems to be coupled with the actual biological.
- And chemical effects.
- I have actually a neurological condition.
So I actually don't feel a lot of that stuff that people,
'cause there's certain steroids that people will like,
your very extreme ones,
that would make somebody bite someone's ear off
in a fight, for example.
- Almost like aggression.
- And they literally do nothing.
I'm always just chilling.
I don't have an effect. - That's great.
- But neurologically, they're still having those effects,
but I don't get those feels
that other people have from those.
But yes, there's that immediate boost in aggression
and the confidence and stuff that come with
a lot of those ones that deal on the neurological.
Overall, a good sense of well-being,
just like from being on testosterone.
It's gonna affect your mood.
And it's interesting.
So testosterone replacement therapy,
if we walk down that path now and kind of switch gears,
we find that men today have declining testosterone
over what has historically been in the past.
So right now, I think a 35-year-old testosterone
is shown to be about half what it was just 50 years ago.
So I don't know if we could argue the point.
We don't really have the science to validate any of it,
but it could be society as far as the impact
that it's having on the mental health.
For men, it could be the estrogens floating around
in the water from all the chemicals and birth control
and all this sort of stuff.
Could be a lot of things.
But it is a fact that average testosterone
is significantly lower,
and that is going to end up affecting life,
quality of life, as well as your longevity,
because it will affect those things.
But on the other end, steroids and TRT,
particularly steroids, come with a lot
of negative health benefits.
Not benefits, a lot of negative health ramifications.
And so if I knew what I know now,
I don't know that I would have gone that path.
I didn't, I didn't until I was 33,
which is kind of an outlier for a strength athlete.
I was a four times body weight deadlifter,
800 plus pounds at 198, and I was pretty dang strong
before I went down that path.
And that's 'cause I wanted to see what I was capable of,
but I was reaching a point that it was either
I need to do that or not.
My testosterone, my natural testosterone levels
were actually, I think below 300 is actually the threshold.
So I was being told to go on TRT for the last couple years,
probably just 'cause I was pushing so hard
and the stress level was driving my test down.
So it was self-imposed, more than likely.
But I put it off because I wanted to set
all the drug-free records.
And I set the ones that I wanted, and then it was 33.
I'm entering the age category,
and I'm like, I'm gonna go on TRT.
I did not feel like I should be with TRT.
Personally, my ethical standard was
I shouldn't be competing in tested events anymore.
There are federations that will allow you with your,
you show up with your script and you do your test
and you're below a certain level, but you're still on.
But for me, I'm like, that's not okay.
- You weren't comfortable.
- So I'm like, I may as well at this point use steroids.
But since then, understanding all those ramifications,
I might not have gone down that route
quite so fast and easily.
But I continued because I also have a lot of resources
that other people don't, and being able to assess
and understand and put things in place to mitigate that.
So you need to be, and the other thing is,
once you go on, it's literally a decision for life.
But realistically is, because your quality of life,
your feeling is going to be enhanced quite a bit,
§17Transcript · 2:14:47–2:22:52
and you're not gonna wanna go back.
And if you go back, it's going to be less
than it was before.
That's how the endocrine system works.
There are ways to try to recover and bring that up,
but it might be a while.
And if you've been on for a while,
it definitely is not an option.
So those are big things that people need to understand
that you're going to have some things in there.
And even TRT has some potential,
especially at higher levels,
that it's going to increase the risk for prostate cancer.
It's going to potentially cause some hypertrophy
of the left ventricle of the heart
and some potential plaque buildup
of some of those key arteries around there
that's going to have an impact
on your cardiovascular health.
There's things that you can do, again,
but everything is like the shoe story, right?
Where I'm anti-shoe, but I'm going,
well, we could put Band-Aids on this.
- Yeah.
- So it's--
- So there's a quality of life that comes with it,
the increase in quality of life.
And if you do it correctly, I think--
- For me, I definitely would not live without TRT,
even with knowing what I know now.
This age and the quality of life
and being able to be there, have the energy, the recovery.
That's a big thing where all this, though,
I talked about muscle protein synthesis
and anti-catabolism as being big drivers,
but recovery is the other big aspect that they offer,
probably as a result of those,
but those are going to be the big enhancements.
So just doing steroids,
steroids is going to increase
all the other stuff that you do.
So if you have good training, you have good diet,
good quality of sleep, like all this other stuff,
then you can take advantage of that.
But you could choose steroids and nobody would know.
And honestly, you go down to 24-hour fitness
and you'll see a bunch of late 19 to 21-year-old kids
that are all kind of red and 150 pounds
that don't look like anything,
and a bunch of them will be using steroids
because they're not,
like, so it's not going to make a champion.
- Like you said, 10% at most.
- Guess what?
I was already at an elite level.
I was one of the best in the world before I started using.
It doesn't do that.
It does a 10% increase at best.
And that's proven in the statistics, which is interesting
'cause most people don't know this.
The data is right there.
- Yeah, and that's why I'm often saddened
by maybe the negative view of somebody like Lance Armstrong,
who was one of the greatest athletes in history.
- And everybody else that he was competing against.
I'm sorry.
I hate to blow anybody's bubble,
but regardless of I told you my ethical pieces
with saying that you're going to be at something
at an elite level,
you look at a lot of those big figures out there,
when their income and your life relies on it,
you're going to push those limits.
So maybe my ethical would change
if I was in that position too,
because here's the thing where I believe,
like someone is,
I think people should avoid steroids.
TRT, probably something worth taking a look
at what your levels are when you're in the 35 to 45 range
and see what decision you decide to make from there.
And that's a decision that you make
for the rest of your life.
The only times that you should be taking a look at steroids
is if it's funding your life,
it's creating that it is your job and it's doing like,
and honestly, it was for me.
So was it the only thing?
No.
- No.
- If you want to get into neurology,
neurotransmitters and alcohol,
there's really interesting discussion
on performance enhancement.
So when I lift heavy,
and so I always promote it like not more than a drink or two
like once or twice a month is what all I'm talking about
when I'm saying this.
- What's the timing of the drink that we're talking about?
- It's about three to five minutes.
- Before?
- Yes.
- And we're talking about beer?
- It doesn't matter the source.
So shots are the easiest.
You want something that is not going to have
some sort of regurgitory effect or bloating effect
or anything like that.
But you want to have the quick hit of energy.
So it's a preferential energy source,
moves above ketones, carbs, everything.
It's seven calories per gram,
but then there's some really interesting things
that happen.
Spikes blood pressure,
which is going to make weights feel lighter.
So when you're in your early 20s
and you're trying to hit up some attractive person
at the bar, you're with your buddies,
and you're like, ah, you know,
and you got second guess, oh, should I, should I?
And they go, have a shot of liquid courage.
And you have one.
And all of a sudden the second thoughts,
the second guessing, all that drops away.
Like you're focused in the moment and you walk over
and you actually perform a little better
like conversation-wise than you normally would.
Now, if you have five or six and then go over,
you're gonna make a fool of yourself.
So it's all about timing and amount,
but there is a reason that that happens.
So anyway, I'm known for promoting
this whiskey and deadlift concept.
- I love this.
- But it works.
- You're talking like the Eastern block.
- That's where I stole it from
'cause I was watching all these Russian lifters
would have a shot of vodka or something
before they go lift.
And I'm like, there's something here.
So I started experimenting with it and I'm like, that works.
And then I started researching.
Nobody talks about this stuff.
So it takes a while to start piecing together
all the stuff that actually happens to make that happen.
But it moves away the things that you're going to,
the concerns about the ramifications in the future
and the other stuff.
So the, but brings you into the moment
and then the dopamine hit in the other,
and then it enhances whatever mood that you're in.
But all of a sudden you get in the state much easier.
And so it's really, really interesting,
but it's a very small amount needed
and very time sensitive,
but it can be so much more powerful
than like drugs people use for this stuff.
It ties really together with meditative state
and other pieces to get you into that flow state.
Those thoughts about failure, what if, what,
like all that you get into that zone, that moment, that time.
Anyway, so interesting an alcoholic is promoting,
out, you know, but-
- No, but there's an important point here,
which not often talked about.
I think it is fascinating that because you can get
into so much trouble with alcohol when using excess,
people don't often talk about the positive aspects
of alcohol, even in your college years.
- It had a lasting effect on who I am as a person.
- I don't think people give enough credit
to the positive aspect.
See, you could have accomplished a lot
of those same things with a little more moderation,
which I think people should talk about more,
which is like the way to open up a personality,
like the flowering of the full character and the weirdness
and the beauty of who you are as a human being
could be opened up with alcohol,
and that's really interesting to think about.
- You should try some podcasts with a shot in these.
- Yeah.
- You know, actually, I do this sometimes
with myself and guests, and it will change the conversation,
lubricates the conversation, definitely not the excess,
and which is what I learned, 'cause I went all the way in
because I do everything at extremes.
So it was a really hard lesson that took me a lot of time
to unwind, but it is interesting,
and people don't discuss those things,
'cause it's either this or this.
- You're one of the greatest strength athletes of all time,
so it's worthwhile to consider how you optimize
the feats of strength that you reach for
with things like steroids.
It makes perfect sense, and I think that was,
from my perspective, I think it was probably
the right decision.
§18Transcript · 2:22:53–2:32:31
You've achieved something incredible
that inspires a huge number of people.
That's it, and you've shown to yourself and to the world
what the human body can accomplish.
- Yep. - That's incredible.
- And no matter if I push to a less weight
and if I disclosed everything that I did,
and I wasn't using steroids, in my opinion,
if we went through everything, there were people
that would say, "You're using performance enhancing."
- Yeah. - No matter what.
Like, it is straight up, so you just need
to be okay with it yourself, and so I had to make the call.
I wanna see what the true potential is of,
let's throw everything out the window,
unless I feel it's a risk from a health standpoint
that I'm not willing to take on,
because that's, how do I, like,
it's just picking and choosing.
- Yeah. - It's just picking
and choosing.
Here's what I want to know.
This is what I want to be able to try to achieve,
and so yeah, yeah, that's what I did.
- And what you did is incredible.
Like, it's just awe-inspiring.
- And what Lance Armstrong did was incredible.
- Yeah, and-- - And that eats me up,
and what's funny is the people that bash him
are on the media or politicians or maybe some actors,
and guess what?
A ton of them are doing the same thing.
It's hypocrisy at its finest, trust me.
- But-- - How many of those figures
you're watching in movies that love to talk,
be political and do this and the news and all this,
I'm telling you, there's anti-aging clinics
like all over California and everywhere else.
Who do you think keeps them in business?
- Well-- - It's not a competitive lifter,
I'll tell you that.
- Well, that's-- - And they're using peptides
and SARMs and all sorts of like--
- Wait, you're speaking to the hypocrisy.
I also want to speak to the fact, you know,
somebody who's a friend of mine, David Goggins,
I don't know if you know who that is,
ultra marathon runner, Navy SEAL.
He gets-- - Pretty incredible person,
yeah. - Incredible human being
and he gets criticism like, you know,
what you're doing is bad for the body,
you know, you're pushing yourself too far.
I find that the people that criticize are often people
that haven't truly pushed themselves to the limit.
They haven't actually worked hard in their life.
When you work hard, you realize how incredible it is
that a human being can dedicate themselves
so fully to an effort, the way you did,
the way David Goggins does,
the way the greatest athletes do.
And there's nothing that should be said
beyond just sitting back in awe
that humans can achieve that.
And that inspires me to do the best,
whatever the hell I do, to be the best version of that.
There's something about like athletic feats,
especially like strength,
that just inspire us to do the best,
to be the best version of ourselves.
I don't know, that's the only thing you should be saying
as opposed to criticizing some little detail of this
and that, it's just awe-inspiring that you push yourself.
- And then talk to anybody that is at that level,
and this is funny, like in competitive sports,
like you go online and people, it's just bash, bash, bash,
bash, bash, bash, bash, bash.
You go talk to anybody, anybody, anybody
that's a high-level athlete within that field,
and nobody has a single bad thing to say about each other.
But all this chitter-chatter down there,
I mean, I know exactly what you're saying.
- So if you, I would say,
'cause I have love for all those folks,
especially when you're younger,
you have a little bit of that desire to criticize others.
Like, I think that should be channeled
in improving your own life.
- Anytime that you feel that way,
that is when you need to turn inward.
And it's hard to do, but there is a reason
that you have those emotions around someone else
and what they're doing,
that you have an opportunity to look at yourself
and know why you feel that way.
And that, guess what, that's gonna be the hard thing to do.
That's gonna be the thing, again,
that's stirring you a little bit,
'cause it's so much easier to sit there
and, or talk to your confidant or whatever
instead of go, why does that bother me?
Why does what that person doing
or what that person's achieving bother me?
- It's a good difficult question that I often ask others,
whether it's better to work hard or work smart.
I like to ask that question
because it helps me get a sense of the human being.
And I think I, let me just say,
like I often like people that answer that with work hard.
Even though the quote unquote right answer is work smart,
meaning like finding the optimal, efficient way
to achieve a certain goal,
I find that people that answer work smart
don't actually find the optimal,
efficient way to achieve a goal.
It seems like the people that at least,
certainly early in life, strive to work their ass off,
even that means doing the inefficient, the dumb thing,
just to learn the mistake.
The spirit behind, the human spirit behind the person
that says work hard is the one that I connect with.
But I'm torn, especially in the work culture
and the tech sector where people answer work smart.
What would you, what would you say about that tension?
This definitely encompasses like,
I'm the intellectual and I'm the meathead.
I'm the work around the clock and go fix the processes
and make it so much better type person, right?
That's me and that's everything,
that's my life story, right?
Busting your ass to find the easiest way possible.
To both.
So like I will build a custom hard drive
or a custom hydraulic cart that will lift my plates
up to the height of my squat so that I can minimize,
I roll it over next to it and then minimize the effort
of it going on and off.
To be able to lift the most amount of weight as possible.
So that I can save the energy from here,
from lifting those up and the fatigue of my back
being in a bad position so I can nearly kill myself
over here, right?
I, my wife, anybody will say, I'm a workaholic.
And the first thing that I would do
when it would be doing a company turnaround,
they'd hire me, come in and I would be taking over
for someone that wasn't successful.
But it was usually hardly ever for lack of want or trying.
So a lot of times they knew they were unsuccessful
and they were running around working six, seven days a week,
12 hour days doing so much.
And it'd be like, well, you need to do this
and they'd train me on like all the reports and this
and all the things and like, good luck.
Good luck, I couldn't do it.
And the first thing I would do is nothing.
I would do nothing.
Because then I would find what actually keeps coming back.
The things that I need to do and how much of it
was filling the space.
Because so much of human nature when you're failing
is to make yourself feel like you're accomplishing things.
This is when things go on your list, on your checklist
and you start like rolling up.
So you're running around just getting shit done.
- Yeah, yeah, being busy.
- Right?
And so, but at the same time, like find somewhere
in my career, something I've done
where I haven't outworked everybody.
Just so much on distilling things down to what's important.
- Yeah.
- And you've got to make time to sit back and assess
and think and be introspective.
You have to make time for this.
'Cause if not, you're gonna waste so much time
sitting there walking sideways when all you gotta do
is move just one step in front of the other each day.
Just one, that's all I say.
Because it's gonna add up.
But you could spend six months knocking shit out,
doing your routine, busting your ass
and not take that one step.
So you've gotta distill stuff down.
You've gotta really understand like what's important
to you in life and where you're going.
And when you're looking at anything in your life,
the first thing that you need to do is figure out
do I need to do it and just quit doing it.
Just quit doing things in your life.
And you'll see that a lot of stuff
that you think has to be done doesn't have to be done.
You'd be surprised.
And then from there, it's the tech, okay.
And then of that, what can I automate?
What can I not have to do in a repeated fashion?
And then the last one, yeah, wherever possible.
If it's not something that I'm adding tremendous value to,
like my uniqueness, people are like,
oh, you must do the auto work on your vehicles
§19Transcript · 2:32:33–2:41:22
'cause you love working.
I'm like, fuck that, I don't.
They're like, what, that doesn't make any sense.
And I'm like, no, I love creating things.
But I don't wanna do that stuff.
So you could use delegating if you're a manager position,
but it's outsourcing, whatever it is.
But there are also so many things.
And this ties back to your point around just doing it.
There's a point to experiencing all levels
to really understand things.
You need to spend time at the same time
doing all those things
'cause there could be good, huge, massive gaps in there
that you're not aware of that are key for you
or key to having done different or so on.
So like in my company days,
I was one of the few executives that came in
that could do anything on the floor
from code to machine, run a lathe, a mill, weld,
step into engineering.
And that added tremendous value to me
to having had spent time being a doer
and not enough people want to be,
you've gotta just go do shit.
You need to spend time in your life chopping wood.
Yeah, get a lot of shit done, doesn't matter what the shit is.
You gotta have experience trying and doing
all these things that you would never,
my skillset is massive because I want to know,
you need to have those touch points.
My job, my title is chief visionary.
But I've spent time doing everything.
It's not about just creating this amazing strategy
or vision and I'm just gonna be there
and this person that directs.
Like you can't be effective, you cannot connect the dots
unless you've been in the moment with everything.
Yeah, low level stuff.
Sometimes it's doing stupid shit
that you're not uniquely qualified to do
that anybody could do, but you did it anyway.
Just the training environment.
People hit me up at a school or wherever like,
hey, how do I get into, I wanna grow my brand online.
I wanna do this, like where do I start?
I'm like, go get a job at Planet Fitness
or 24 Hour Fitness.
They're like, but I wanna, how do I get recognized
and write articles and be an online coach?
I'm like, you need to go spend a few years
one-on-one training people to learn the interaction,
how people, there's base levels you have to do.
You've gotta go work your way up from the ground.
I truly believe it.
- Well, I think that's the hard work piece
that I'm speaking to that I like it
when people have been humbled by the hardness of life.
Like how difficult it is to do stuff.
And to be honest--
- Like, oh, I went and got my MBA.
I went to MIT.
I don't need to do that stuff.
I'm above that.
- Yeah, yeah.
That's, once you've been humbled by doing those things,
I feel like you can truly explore the optimization
that you're talking to,
finding the ways where you're uniquely capable
to add value to the world.
And then again, work your ass off
to be the best in the world at that thing.
- Yes.
- So it's always--
- But then don't waste your time on shit that's not a line.
- Yeah, a lot of money.
- That's the only, so that's,
I guess there's a lot of context I put around that.
But yeah, that was like a long answer to,
a long, beautiful answer to an unanswerable question.
Do you have advice outside of all this discussion
to young people today about career, about life?
Since you've done so many things,
you've overcome a lot of things.
Think high school, college student,
thinking about what to do in their life.
Do you have advice for those guys and girls?
- Yeah, yeah.
(laughing)
First is, you don't have it figured out.
So don't worry, just jump in.
- Yeah, yeah.
- We talked a lot about understanding your values
and aligning all that stuff,
but you gotta have a base level
of start exploring and learning
and just spending the time doing like, pick something.
Let me elaborate a little bit.
- No, you know what?
A lot of people struggle with that aspect now
because the choice, there's so much choice,
it's difficult to pick something,
but I think it does boil down to,
you should pick something and don't worry about it.
- And then, but within that,
you can start discovering the things
that are there for you.
Like I talked about, I made this huge shift.
I threw away my whole life,
but I don't regret anything about that.
I wouldn't be where I was if I didn't walk through
and learn those things.
And in fact, in the course of that,
I learned just how much that inspiring people
and helping them realize the potential
far beyond what they thought was capable.
And guess what?
That was leadership 101
and managing people base level, floor level, right?
And I got a lot out that was perfectly aligned with,
and that's what I realized.
It didn't matter what industry I was in
or any of those other things,
but I was able, you can see so many things.
There's so many paths that you can go down
to help you realize what those things are.
And you're gonna be able to find a lot of those nuggets
and develop those.
Do you think that I could have just gone to school
and got out and started a globally recognized brand
within a few years without having been schooled in business
while getting paid for it by others for years?
And in fact, that entire time,
I knew that that's what I wanted to do,
but I didn't go out on it.
I mentored some of my friends along the same path to go.
No, they're like, "I'm ready.
I'm ready to go do this."
And I'm like, "No, now you need to go get a job.
Yeah, you know engineering, management, design,
all that stuff, go get a job as a manager now."
Like, "Oh, that's a step down.
I can't do that."
I'm like, "Go try it."
A couple of years later, "Oh my God,
that was such a good move.
I didn't know what I didn't know."
And now they're an executive
for freaking a Fortune 500 company.
And the same thing, like I sat there knowing
that I was getting a free education.
Don't stress yourself out, that's my advice.
Don't stress yourself out that you've got to have
this perfect thing because this process
of understanding your values and the introspect,
that takes time.
- You can get a job where you're getting paid to learn.
- Exactly.
- That's a good deal before you launch on your own.
You mentioned going back to darkness.
I'm Russian, so I like going back to darkness.
You suffered from depression, you considered suicide.
Do you ponder your own death these days?
Do you think about your mortality?
Are you afraid of death?
- I definitely think about mortality.
And am I afraid of my own death?
It depends on the moment.
If I'm in the middle of a project,
I definitely want to finish that project, man.
But I don't fear it so much.
I fear leaving my kids or my wife
and not being able to be there for them.
That bothers me.
Outside of that, I know that I put everything
into the life that I've lived.
Like you said, there's always more,
but I've lived hard, I've loved hard.
Every moment in my life, I've made connections
and impacted people around me for the better.
And this tracks back, which is crazy
when we were doing the documentary
and they're interviewing people through my whole life
and the consistency of the themes of anyone,
like anything for Duffin, like just,
sure, I'll fly in from Boston, all of them,
like these people, like all of, like, it was crazy.
Like everybody had a story about me giving,
like just over and over.
And I didn't even really--
- It's just the way you were.
- But I've been all in.
I don't have, like, I have a lot more I want to do,
but I don't have things that regret have not done in,
like, I don't fear it.
I don't fear it.
- Yeah, it's like the, I don't know if you know
the Bukowski poem, "Go All the Way,
"Otherwise Don't Even Try."
It seems like you embody that poem
§20Transcript · 2:41:25–2:42:52
and you've accomplished some incredible things
and serve as an inspiration to a huge number of people.
Chris, you're an amazing human being.
I'm really honored that you would spend
your valuable time with me.
Thank you so much for talking with me today.
It was incredible.
I can't wait to check out all the cool stuff
you've engineered with Kabuki Strength.
So I'm, obviously I love the, I love strength.
I love strength training.
I love the idea of strength.
I love the equipment and the engineering approach
that you take to strength.
You're an incredible human,
both on the things you've accomplished
in terms of your own strength feats
and the kind of science and engineering
you bring to the field that many others could use.
So thank you so much for talking today.
- Thanks for having me on.
That was, that was quite the final.
Thank you.
- Thanks for listening to this conversation
with Chris Duffin, and thank you to Headspace,
Magic Spoon, Sun Basket, and Ladder.
Check them out in the description to support this podcast.
And now let me leave you with some words
from Arnold Schwarzenegger.
"Strength does not come from winning.
"Your struggles develop your strengths.
"When you go through hardship and decide not to surrender,
"that is strength."
Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.
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