JRE MMA Show #149 with Dan Henderson

00:04Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. TRAIN BY DAY, JOE HELLO, Dan Henderson. What's happening? Good to see you, bro. Good to see you, too. Man, um what have you been up to? Other than coaching. You're coaching a lot, I know that. I watch a lot of your uh videos. Yeah, I mean I'm coaching a little bit. Got Got some decent up-and-comers, but other than that, I've been I've been working on a project where my gym I own the building my gym's in, and I'm putting a bourbon distillery restaurant in. Oh, nice. Part of it will overlook there. So, we're in mid-construction right now. So, it's been It's been We started construction. It got put on hold when COVID happened. So, it's been a almost the biggest fight of my life trying to get this thing done. But, yeah, it's finally finally going to be done, and hopefully

00:56end of the year. You're down in uh you still down like Temecula area? Yeah, in Temecula, yeah. That's a good area. I love it there, I mean. Last time I saw you was at that casino. That's a fun little casino down there. Oh, at Pechanga? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, I love it out there. If I I was born and raised in California, so it you know, it'd be hard to leave. I got so many roots there, but you know, living in Temecula, I feel like I'm in one of the best spots in California. Yeah, it's one of the best It's most sane. Yeah. It's pretty sane. Yeah, pretty A lot of ranches, and it's like normal people. lot of craziness going on. Yeah, you getting closer to Los Angeles, it just gets polluted. It's just toxic [ __ ] thinking. you live up there? I lived in Bell Canyon, which was like uh half hour outside of LA, which is nice. Like I had land, and a lot of

01:47coyotes, and a lot of owls, and hawks, and [ __ ] and mountain lions. It's good. It's a good area. It's It was good like juxtaposition. It was a nice relief from Hollywood. I get there, it's quiet. was the little community though, the area? Yeah. Yeah, it's fine. It's just Like it here better though? Oh, yeah, way better. I'm never leaving. Yeah. No, this place is This place is the best. It's just the freedom that you get in Texas. It's just so much You just get so accustomed to it. Yeah, no, I I I couldn't imagine, but yeah, I I don't know if I could deal with the humidity of out here. You get used to it. I don't I don't know. I've always liked the heat. It doesn't bother me at all. You know, I just uh cuz I do the sauna every day anyway. So, I think my body's like acclimated to heat. So, during the summertime, you don't really have to get

02:38in the sauna. I get in the sauna, too. I do it every day. But, it during the day like uh getting ready for elk season, I was out in my yard every day for 3 hours in 105°. I just bring a 64-oz Hydro Flask filled with electrolytes and water, and just drink that. And I would come inside, and it was literally like I went swimming. I would just be drenched. My jeans, my shirt, everything drenched. What are you doing out in the yard? Just shooting. Okay. Just shooting, you know, getting ready. So, I I had to practice. So, it's like there's only one place I could practice 100 yards. Yeah. It's in the yard, so I was out there practicing every day. Have you taken a 100-yard shot? No way, never. Never. I would never do that. Never. But, you practice But, when you take a 100-yard shot every day, 50-yard shots look like a chip shot. Right. Like I shot my elk last week at

03:2750, and it was easy. It was perfect. It was perfect distance, you know. I knew it was going to hit it. Yeah, I've gotten a couple at 50. I think one at 60 was my long longest shot, but yeah. My friend Cam shot one at 2 yards. He shot at 2 yards, a frontal shot at 2 yards. He made it just made a video of it. It's [ __ ] crazy. This elk had He was on his knees, and the elk was coming up the trail, and the elk had no idea he was there. He just standing there at full draw, and then the elk looked down and saw him there, and what? And then and it caught him right in the chest. Went right through his heart. Wow. Yeah, there This is the video. Oh. This is a real clip of it. So, he's moving up this trail, and this is the elk What What you'll you'll see the shot Well, it's very hard to see. You'll see it on his YouTube channel.

04:13It's much better, but that's how close he was. It was 2 yards from it. That's funny. And my first elk I ever shot was with a bow, but it was at like 10 ft. So, Wow. 3 and 1/2 yards. But, yeah, it was in a burned area, so there was a lot of like new growth going on, and there was a little quaky tree, and I saw an elk a couple of yards away. Called him, and he started coming over, and then you know, I called again kind of in a different direction, so he'd kind of go into a nice little spot I could shoot him, and I'm kind of jittery getting my my trigger on the the loop, you know, my release on there, and by the time I look up, he's like right on the other side of this quaky, 10 ft away from me, you know, just kind of looking to see where the cow is. And just same thing, plugged it right right through the middle. I've never taken that shot. I had an opportunity to

05:02do that shot last week at 45 yards, but there was some [ __ ] in the way of them, and I don't like that shot. Yeah, not not at that distance. No, that shot's like a I passed right I passed right through him. Oh, yeah, that's It's a devastating shot. Just right at an angle. Yeah, it's devastating if you hit it. I mean, there's so many videos online of guys hitting that. And it's you know, they just spray blood and die instantly. yeah, he went He was He managed to ran run 20 yards down down the hill, and didn't make it any farther. It's a great uh it's a great discipline for fighters. A lot of guys who they leave fighting, and the excitement, and the intensity of fighting, nothing can match that. And so, the only thing that comes close for a lot of them is bow hunting. Yeah, no, I could see that for sure. I mean, I've done it I was doing it when I was

05:50fighting, too. But, yeah, I mean, I've been I grew up hunting, but never really started shooting animals till I get a little bit older. Getting a little better at it, but It's hard. I need to get out and bow hunt a little more. That's my favorite hunt is a bow archery elk hunt. Yeah, no, it's the most exciting. It's also the most crazy. There's screaming, and there's so much chaos, and you got to duck those cows, and sneak around. It's It's fun. I love it. It's to me, it's like the best It's the best way to get meat, first of all, and then it's also the best way for me to decompress. Right, you know. And it's really good meat. Oh, it's the best meat. It's the best meat. I ate the heart last night. Oh, I don't know if I can do that. You don't eat the heart? No. It's It's good, man. You just just fry it up. I just put salt, pepper, and garlic on it,

06:40and butter, fry it in butter. like it would have a different texture. It does. It's It's chewy, but it's good. It tastes good. a fan of liver, either. I eat the liver, too. Yeah. Yeah, I can't do it. It's good for you. I mean, it's the best meat for you. be good for you, but It's rough. I don't eat too much. I eat a couple ounces in the morning with eggs. You know, I just slice it up and vacuum seal it, and freeze it, and then thaw it out for for breakfast. It's a good breakfast. Gets you going. Yeah, no, I'm not I'm not into that, yeah. You're more of a man than me, for sure. That's definitely So, how have you adapted to retirement? Uh I feel like I'm pretty what? Pretty good. It's not like I have the itch to get in there and do it again. Occasionally, when I see some of these guys and and with with a little bit different style,

07:36I I feel like it would have been fun to match up or see how I do against them. You know, I'd do it in in practice, not Right. with no cameras. That'd be you know, just to see Right. be, not not for any type of title or money. It would be fun, but For a lot of guys, it's so hard to not just resist that urge to come back. Yeah. I mean, I I started wrestling when I was 5 years old, and two Olympic teams, and then and then I started fighting for and I fought for 20 years, so I feel like I did enough. You definitely did enough. You did You did a lot. So, a lot more than most Yeah. over over that span of time than than most guys compete at at that level, and I was ready when I retired. I was you know, honestly, my body felt okay, but I hadn't really had too many big injuries at all for for a while, and I just was sleep spending too much time

08:40on the couch after practice, just tired too tired to do anything else during training camp. Yeah. So, family life was kind of you know, with the kids, and not spending time doing stuff like that was taking a toll. So, I was like, you know, it's time. Yeah, well, you did it at the right time. It's like and it's good that you didn't come back. It's just like so many guys come back, and you kind of wish they didn't, and Right. you know. Well, I wouldn't be one of those guys. If I did come back, I would it would be I would be I I still feel really good. So, but I I don't plan on it. But, nobody's offered me enough money to get off the couch anyway, so Well, what I'm What I'm interested in seeing is like there's so many different options now with guys, you know, like bare-knuckle boxing. Right. you know, a lot of guys going into that,

09:28and I feel like that would be a thing that you would excel at. Yeah, I hadn't really watched it until I watched Chad Mendes fight last year, Mhm. and I'm like, man, I like those rules. That'd be right up my alley. Not Like I don't think I'd would I would do okay at boxing, straight boxing, but not that great. I I would do a lot better at the bare-knuckle rules with the dirty boxing. Yeah. Hold on to the guy, and Yeah, it's very different. It's uh I really like what Jorge Masvidal's doing, where he's got bare knuckle MMA. Yeah. shows you that it's like when you don't have First of all, grappling is way better cuz you don't have the padding over your gloves that prevent certain chokes. It's just like it gets in the way stuff. But also it's more realistic. You know, like your your hands like I think we we talked about this before that I think it was Tank

10:19Abbott was the first guy who figured out that if you wear MMA gloves, you actually could punch harder cuz you you're not worried as much about breaking your hand. Yeah. Yeah. Wrap your hands up, put gloves on and it's not a disadvantage. It's kind of an advantage. Right. Yeah, it doesn't necessarily protect your opponent that much. It really protects your hands. Right. No, I agree. Yeah. For sure. But it just seems to me weird that, you know, your elbows are unprotected, your knees are unprotected, your shins are unprotected. You can go bone to bone with that but not with your hands. Just seems like it doesn't really make sense. Right. Uh I and when they when they first started UFC, there was no gloves and and Yeah. and that's how it was. And when they started wearing gloves and that was my thoughts exactly was they're more to protect your hands than Yeah. you know,

11:10I guess without without your hands uh with if your hands break or fall apart then the fight kind of doesn't happen as well. Yeah, it's just it's interesting to see how effective it is too. Like Mike Perry has done an amazing job transitioning into bare knuckle. Like he's he's probably the most successful at it. Definitely the most successful at it from MMA guys. Right. Yeah, I saw him with with Luke Rockhold. Mhm. Knocked some teeth silly. Yeah, I mean those when it's just raw knuckle on your face like a regular mouthpiece is not quite good enough. Right. And and it's interesting that guys are still using the upper mouthpiece only with bare knuckle. I would think you might want to use an upper and a lower. Yeah, I was just did the upper. Yeah, most people do. I mean very few people fought in MMA with an upper and a lower, right? I don't think anybody.

11:57Not that I know of. Not that I know of. In boxing you used to see it. You used to see guys who had like a full mouthpiece but it just gets in the way of your breathing too much I think. what that's what I have a problem with. Yeah. Did you breathe out of your nose? Can your nose work? My nose works fine. A lot of guys, you know, No, yeah. I started snoring and so I went and got a sleep test but they they went in and and Cleaned it out. No, they put a scope up there to see how my nose was cuz they, you know, just like you they thought my nose couldn't breathe Right. and they said it was completely clear and no no it was all good. That's amazing. Yeah. It's amazing that you haven't had too many big injuries. I know you you broke your hand at least once, right? Uh yeah, against yeah. Yeah, that was a wild one. That was a that was in the first round I broke it. So I I

12:51just remember going back to the corner shaking my hand saying my hand hurts and they started talking about something else or what I needed to do and then I never thought about it again the rest of the fight. Wow. And I threw it was throwing it. So I I you know, it just the adrenaline or whatever I had in me just didn't even feel it again. You got some wild highlight reel knockouts. Some wild fights. I remember the first fight I ever saw of yours, I think it was in 1997. I think you just posted it on Instagram or someone did. It's like me interviewing you backstage. Yeah. Right after the fight. 97. That that was in 97? I think so. Pretty sure. That was when I first started working for the UFC. I think that was a that was a tournament back then. Yeah, what year is that? Does it say? Oh, [ __ ] UFC 17. It was 17, yeah. Yeah. That was

13:49yeah, 1997. No, 98. 98. I fought in 97 in Brazil in a tournament and just to make some money to keep wrestling and then I did the UFC your later. Who talked you into doing MMA in the first place? Well, you know, Randy and I were training partners forever for wrestling and uh you know, we'd always watched it on TV and said, you know, that'd be fun but I don't know if I'd want to get in there with some of those three or four hundred pounders, you know, those big [ __ ] and Randy called me up one day and said, "Hey, I'm doing this tournament down in Brazil at heavyweight and they got a lightweight tournament." And this is like two weeks before. And you want to go do the lightweight tournament which is like it was like 176 or something. And I was like, "Well, okay." And I was wrestling 180 and a half at the time so it was an extra 5 lbs but

14:41yeah, I I I went down and did it but in the meantime I guess he Randy had already put an application into the UFC and they did they said no. And which I didn't know he put in the application but then he got a call somebody got hurt so he didn't go down to Brazil, he went to the UFC instead. It was like within a week a week before or a week after that fight. No, not that one but the one down in Brazil which was I think it was UFC 13 was his first one. Mhm. And uh he Yeah, I was there for that too. And he had a tournament against the like two big heavyweights. Yeah, he fought some big muscular guy at the first fight. He had a lot of hype on him. I don't remember who he fought in the second fight. I don't remember but that was like when we first started seeing elite wrestlers. Right. First started seeing guy Royce Alger, you know, Coleman, all those uh

15:36uh Didn't did Kenny Monday fight in the UFC or Yes. Yeah. Yeah, Kenny Mon- No, was it Kevin Jackson? Kevin Jackson. Monday fought uh he fought submission. I remember Matt Hughes submitted him. Oh, yeah, yeah. Remember that? I I think I I wrestled with uh Frank Shamrock. That's right. And I had I had a screwed up ankle from I rolled it right before the world championships a month before that and so I went in there wearing wrestling shoes so I could hide the tape that I had on my ankle. Frank's pretty good at ankle lock so Yeah. That was me not knowing anything about it. Well, Frank was really one of the first guys that had like a full overall MMA game. Right. No, I agree. Really did. He had a I mean when he submitted Kevin Jackson like it was very impressive. He could submit you off his back. He had crazy cardio, full range of skills. He could strike, he could

16:33grapple, he could do everything. Right. And the cardio, he was like one of the first guys that showed like cardio could be a weapon like the Tito Ortiz fight. You know, his cardio was a real weapon. And Tito's usually in pretty good shape, too. Yeah, well, Tito learned from that fight. I mean I think that was a big wake up call for him that how much cardio plays a factor. Yeah. And it's a yeah, and it's a different pace from wrestling so that was that was something we had to learn. You couldn't wrestling is a little bit higher pace, a little more action. Mhm. Shorter shorter durations though. So I had to learn to kind of pace myself a little bit when I first started doing this. When you first started doing this, what were the distance of the rounds? Was it still Was it five minute rounds? No. Um the one down in Brazil I think was uh

17:25a 15 minute straight round and and then and then maybe a 15 minute overtime if there's no submission then they go to judges. Mhm. Um but I mean I didn't go. I think I went like seven or eight minutes the first fight with Krazy was my first fight. He was like a black belt which I didn't know a whole lot about. After watching that fight again nowadays, it just, you know, I see so many mistakes that I did and I didn't know how to punch either. I was just I never sparred before. I never sparred before I fought in the UFC on that that one you just put up. Never? Never. And then I started sparring after that. Well, no, I hit the bag and hit focus mitts and you know, it was just kind of awkward to punch your friend in the face, you know. But after that was like, "Man, Randy's like, [ __ ] we need to start sparring." That is so crazy. You guys didn't spar

18:22at all before the first That is wild. That's wild. So you you you I was off balance a lot, you know, getting hit, falling down because you know, you just it when you don't spar you just not you don't have the same balance or Yeah. It's just a lot better to practice the way you fight. That's so crazy that you fought the first So did you have a striking coach? Yeah, we had boxing guys and kind of kickboxing guys that would come in but there was no coaches back then, MMA coaches I don't say but and then we just started really figuring out what what works really well with our styles and you know, takedown offense and you know, setting up strikes and I think the first real MMA coach was probably Militech. Probably Pat. The first guy that Pat and Matt Hume. Yeah, Matt Hume. Good good call. Yeah. Those are the first guys that were really putting it all together.

19:19Right. You know, I mean and and even back then guys kind of didn't know exactly what the right I mean now what you go to ATT or one of these big gyms, I mean they have protocols. Like they they know exactly what they're doing. They have training schedules all mapped out in advance, hard days, easier days, technical days. I mean they really have it down to a science. Yeah. Monitoring recovery. It's kind of crazy when you think about your first fight, no sparring at all. Well, yeah, my first four fights cuz it was two fights each each one of those events so And then in the UFC when we you fought Carlos Newton, right? Yeah, Carlos Newton and No, Allan Goes then Carlos Newton. Two very elite submission guys. Yeah. Yeah, Carlos Newton, people forgot about him. That [ __ ] guy was good. Yeah, no, he's tough. He was good. Real well-rounded.

20:10He broke my jaw. Did he really? Yeah. Just toward like a last minute of the fight, he kind of hit me. It didn't daze me or anything, but and then, you know, shortly after a few 5 seconds later, I took him down. And when I took him down, my chin kind of pushed against his chest and it kind of shifted and I'm like, "Ooh, that doesn't that doesn't feel right." When did you realize that you had that kind of crazy power? Cuz it's kind of funny that a guy who started out grappling and didn't do any sparring at all for his first four MMA fights was one of the most dangerous strikers in the sport. Um I don't know. I mean, I grew up playing baseball and threw really hard. And then you know, when I when I started and not sparring, I started MMA, you know, I'd hit the pad or you know, focus mitts and and everybody say, "Oh [ __ ] you hit hard."

21:10It's just natural. But yeah, so I guess it just took me a while to figure out where to put it. There's a few I think Gomi, I think Takanori Gomi started out as a pitcher. Mhm. Which makes sense. You see the way that guy throws punches. He just [ __ ] whips his whole body into it like a fastball. lot of weight into it. Yeah. It's that's a actually probably a great thing to start out with. Just to learn how to put a lot of force behind your arm. Drive in with your legs and everything. Yeah, completely makes sense if you think about it. Cuz you think about how many guys practice with medicine balls now. You know, they whip medicine balls against the wall to advance your punching power. Yeah. It's hard to teach. I mean Yeah, you either have power or you don't have power. Yeah, I mean, you can definitely get better at mechanics to make it harder, but not

21:57not like what a lot of guys have naturally. Right. Isn't it wild? That's a crazy thing because you can't really tell sometimes by looking at guys. Like there's guys that just look Well, you look pretty strong. But there's some guys like they just don't look like they carry that much power, but they have crazy power. Right. It's it's a it's a weird power is a weird thing. No, I agree. Like you you got have nuclear power or you don't, you know? But and again, I think a lot of that is it is mechanics, but a lot of that most mechanics come naturally. Like some of those you know, pitchers that that can throw the ball so goddamn fast. Yeah. And some of them are skinny as [ __ ] You know how the hell that you know, they just whip that thing around. And then there's also your frame. You know, like some guys just have bigger shoulders, bigger

22:48hands. They're just naturally designed to hit things more, more leverage points. Yeah, it's a it's just when you think back like as a pioneer in the sport I mean, it's pretty wild what you guys did. Pretty wild that you entered into the sport that at the time it was just kind of a way to make some money. It wasn't there was I mean, when I started doing the post-fight interviews, it was banned from cable. The only way you could get it was DirecTV. I actually got DirecTV specifically. Yeah, '97. Cuz it was I feel like it was right after it wasn't banned from cable yet until after I fought. I think it was '17. One of those one of those years it was banned from cable. And there was a lot of shenanigans with like Budweiser and remember like McCain? McCain was trying to keep it out. Yeah, for sure. it human cockfighting. Yeah. Yeah, wasn't a fan of his. No, most MMA

23:47guys weren't cuz it was so ridiculous. There was no deaths in MMA to speak of. Not like in MMA in boxing, which we have you know, a few every year. And they were trying to say it was more dangerous. I'm like, I don't think it is. I don't think it is. I mean, they're all everything's dang Every combat sport's dangerous. But to say that MMA is more dangerous just ignorance. He just didn't understand what was happening. No, yeah. It uh I I have heard that over the years a lot of different things and Yeah. I got nothing bad to say about MMA. I mean, I grew up as a wrestler and you know, it's kind of competing is what I've done my whole life and and yeah, I I don't feel like it affected me in a bad way at all. You know, if anything, it was positive things that made me tougher, made me, you know, have more drive and with other things in my

24:39life. Well, you're very fortunate that you came out of it on the other end, you know, healthy. Yeah. We we know guys who haven't, you know. Right. No, I know. There's a few guys that are pretty messed up. saying that it hasn't affected some guys, but I'm I'm just saying unfortunately I I went through it fairly good. No, you went through it great. a lot of it was and Randy's the same way, just being smart in training. A lot of these guys just bang way too much in practice. Yeah. And I'm always a advocate of sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes in training, if you're training to fight, you have to fight in training. Yeah. And How do you know how to manage that? Yeah, I think over the years, you know, you you just you definitely have one we have one hard solid spar day a week. Uh and then more technical sparring uh another day with the big gloves on and then

25:38uh the other days with the MMA gloves, you know, we're we're still going hard, but not with the striking part. Just lighter strikes. Which, you know, it's kind of hard sometimes. Some of these guys when they go lighter, that they're you know, they slow down their punches instead of, you know, keeping your speed there and your timing. And Just touching each other up. punching as hard, so that's kind of a hard thing that to get used to and it took me a while to to get have that control. I would accidentally drop guys a lot in practice cuz I didn't have control when I was, you know, kind of new to the sport. Is there a way that you do now where you train guys to learn how to punch fast, but not hit hard? Yeah, you yell at them to, you know, That's it. Don't do it in slow motion, you know. Yeah. Don't do it in slow motion, but also don't connect full power.

26:29to hit hard, but don't go slow, you know. Yeah. You just got to remind them cuz guys just do it naturally. But it's kind of crazy for you as a pioneer because you guys had to kind of figure it out. A pioneer? I hear it all the time. good word? I don't know, but yeah, I think that is a good word, but it just does make me feel older. the definition of a pioneer. I mean, UFC 17, I mean, come on, man. That's that was back in the dark days. Feel like I should have a [ __ ] panda. Do some gold A head lamp on it or [ __ ] Yeah. Yeah, but I mean, there's no better word for it. But back then, you guys had to kind of learn along the way and the as the sport evolved. I've always said this that there's not a sport that you could ever point to that is evolved more since 1993 to 2023. There's nothing even close. Yeah. fights today like the Makhachev

27:24Volkanovski fight, I mean, everything's so high level now. Everyone's so good in every aspect of the game. Yeah, that was a good I mean, their first one was good one. That was a I didn't expect that. expect it either. That guy evolved. He got better. He got better and he figured out a lot of the things that he was doing wrong in that fight and then setting up that head kick with those body kicks. this I just felt like he had more tools Mhm. and easier adjustments. Did you ever have to take a fight like that on 10 days notice? Cuz that's what's crazy about it. That he took it so short notice. Yeah, a number of times. Especially in Pride, that was pretty common. Yeah, Pride, they would just call you up like a week before the fight, right? Big Nog for he was heavyweight champ at the time on 10 days notice. Jesus. Um Yeah, I mean, there was there was a

28:15couple of it. There was I fought Bustamante on probably a week's notice. So when during the Pride days Two and a half months after knee surgery, a new ACL surgery. No way. They called me up and I was hunting out in Colorado and they tracked me down on my buddy's cell phone up in the mountains and said, "Hey, you need to and I didn't have a contract at the time and I went and had knee surgery cuz I tore my knee and and uh they was like, "Well, if you don't take the fight, we don't know what'll happen with any future contracts." So I'm like, "All right, I'll do it, but you're paying me win or lose, you know, the the win bonus also." And so I I took the fight. Luckily, I knocked him out real quick with that knee. So, yeah. And who was that again? Murilo Bustamante. Bustamante. I don't remember that fight. I'm trying to remember that fight.

29:14he left the after he was UFC champ and then left. That is crazy you fought two and a half months after ACL reconstruction. Yeah. That basically means your ACL was useless. Well, I mean yeah, I mean, it was like a minute into the fight. How Right. What Okay, now I'm remembering that fight. See if you can find that fight. You got it? And I I did Here it is right here. Now, this was which way did they do it? Did they do a cadaver? Did they do a patella tendon repair? the cadaver cuz it was a quicker recovery. Yeah. I did the cadaver on my right knee I had the patella tendon on my left knee. My right knee was good to go in 6 months, but my left knee it took like a year before it felt normal. That's crazy. Which knee is it? Uh my my left. My my lead knee. And so you're supporting on it. You already threw a kick. So you're trusting it. Do you just not think about it once

30:07you're in there? No, yeah. I I mean I I was I was hiking like 10 miles a day for about 4 days before they tracked me down up in Carmel. That's crazy, too. Luckily I was, you know, but I was also drinking beer every day. Well, that doesn't get you in shape, though. The beer doesn't, but the uh the hiking 10 miles a day in the mountains, that's actually probably pretty good for your [ __ ] endurance. You know, oh there it is. That's it. That must have been so such a relief to take a fight like that 2 and 1/2 months after surgery. Yeah, no it was definitely a good moment, for sure. I was a little nervous about it cuz he's a tough dude. Yeah, very tough dude. Very tough dude. The the the funniest thing about that, you know, the 1 week that I had at home training, I uh threw like a wide left hook and dislocated my thumb. And it it popped out and you can see

31:10it's still screwed up now, but when I got there, I'm like, "Hey, can can I get a a shot to numb my thumb before the fight?" Cuz they can do that there. They don't let you do it here, but Right. They're like, "Yeah, but you got to go to the doctor. They'll x-ray you so you know." So I went in there and they got one of those things you could see the the chicken x-rayed me doing this. There was nothing wrong and then I'm like, "But it it they had the x-ray machine where you could see the bones move and it just so weird how the bone just comes right the ligament is gone. Oh. So Is it still gone? Yeah. It's just torn off? Yeah, I just it by that time it I just taped it for about a year and then it was good. And then but my other thumb got jammed in the fight like when I was trying to finish him, it must have got jammed and my my whole thumb was so

32:00swollen. So I couldn't even wipe my ass. I couldn't take my pants off. I had no thumbs for like a week. So both thumbs were [ __ ] up? Yeah. God. Yeah. Wow. But yeah, that was the funny part about that. The Pride days were so wild. Because did you when when when you were under contract with Pride, did you just like when an event was coming up just prepare like you were probably going to fight in the event? Cuz they didn't contact anybody until like a couple of weeks out. New Year's Eve shows, you know I knew that I'd probably be fighting most most likely on most of those shows once they started cuz that was their big event of the year. So and I think I did two or three of those. Uh So I but I was ready to go. The only ones that really that I noticed that was real short notice were those two. I, you know, against Big Nog and then Against Bustamante.

32:55Bustamante. Remember when Bustamante fought Tom Erickson in that one crazy event? No. a one of those no time limit things or like a 30-minute round or something like that. And Tom Erickson was like 300 lbs. or was it grappling? No, it was MMA. It was an MMA fight. I think it was the same event where Oleg Taktarov fought Renzo Gracie and Renzo Gracie KO'd him with an upkick. It was like the first time we ever saw an upkick. Was that in the UFC? No. No, that was that was uh some one-off. some of the first few UFCs they were doing goofy stuff like like they had super long fights. No time limit. Right. The first UFC was no time limit each fight. No time limit. They just fought. And Pride had Pride had when I first got to Pride it was two 10s. And then they'd turn it to 10 and two 5s, right? Yeah. Do you like that? I think the 10-minute round is a good idea. I I I

33:50liked it because it I thought it separated the men from the boys, really. I mean, about 7 8 9 minutes in, you you know, guys start breaking. Mhm. Well, also if you're a grappler and you take a guy down with 4 minutes into the round and you know, you've got 6 minutes to go now instead of 1 minute. Right. You know, if you're you see the UFC guys struggle so hard to get a takedown and they finally get a takedown and then boom, round's over. Whereas like I just feel like in that situation maybe the right move is to start them in the next round exactly where you left them off. You know what I mean? No, that would that I would like that. Because you think about the advantage that it is for an elite striker like a Alex Pereira or something like that. If you take that guy down and and dominate him in the first round and then the second round starts and he has to go

34:38right back to side control or wherever wherever you had him. Or just do three 8-minute rounds or something. Something like that. Yeah, three 8-minute rounds for a championship round. That that for championship fight. That I like that. For any fight. Yeah. Well, it's just I think, you know, Chael Sonnen had said this. He's just like, "No one can really fight all out for 25 minutes. You got to kind of pace yourself." No, yeah. And like that I said coming from wrestling to MMA, I kind of learned how to pace myself and then you know, sometimes like my my fight against Shogun, which was five rounds, but I got tired because I tried to finish him like in the third round and just [ __ ] shot my wad. Yeah. You know, and That fight was [ __ ] crazy. That was a crazy one. It was probably more crazy to everybody else watching than it was to me.

35:30Really? Why is that? Because I don't know. I felt like I dominated him the first three rounds. Yeah. Like it wasn't a a a close decision on those three rounds. The fourth round was kind of close. So it could have went either way, I thought. And then the fifth round he was on top me, but he wasn't hurting me at all. So I knew he wouldn't finish me. In my mind I knew for sure he wasn't going to finish me and I already won the fight. Mhm. And you know, anytime he did hit me, I'd get I'd try to get out. And he just kept mounting me again every time I'd almost get out. I was so tired. Well, I want to say crazy in that it was entertaining. No, for sure. very wildly entertaining fight. But a lot of people like oh they didn't know what was going to happen if he was going to finish me or not finish me. But I knew that he wasn't going to. So

36:21that's why it wasn't as exciting to me. It definitely was a lot lot tougher fight than I was hoping for. Well, because of trying to empty out the gas tank. Yeah, that and and and I thought I'd, you know, he'd I don't know if he was coming off of injuries in the past with some of his other fights where he kind of almost quit and and they broke him and or finished him. Mhm. And uh so I'm like that was my goal was to go out there and and get on him pretty hard and and try to break him and finish him. He's a guy that I feel like maybe fought a little too long. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. And he he he definitely manned up and, you know, was a lot tougher than I thought he was. Oh, he's a tough [ __ ] In Pride he was amazing. Yeah. In in Pride he was [ __ ] amazing. I think a lot of guys left their best days behind in Pride, unfortunately.

37:14You know, a lot of guys by the time we saw them in the UFC, Big Nog, Cro Cop there's a few of those guys that just the wars. Fedor. Fedor, yeah. The wars that they had in Pride were so insane. The young kids didn't have big wars, though. A couple, but not not No. Not where he got hit much. No, not really. I mean, even in the Cro Cop fight he was basically walking down Cro Cop, which is crazy when you think about what an elite striker Cro Cop is. Right. Fedor was a [ __ ] dude. God damn, that guy was good. like some of the uh referees or something told me like when when they were in there ref ref'ing Cro Cop in the UFC, he's out there saying, "I'm too old for this shit." Or I don't, you know, like why am I here?" Type of thing. That's not the attitude you should have when you're out there. Yeah. Well, I think also I don't know what he was doing when he

38:04was in Pride, but I know a lot of guys when they were in Pride were doing a lot of [ __ ] and then they came over to the UFC and all of a sudden they're getting tested. Whereas in Pride they were saying like specifically, "We don't test it for nothing." Like Enson told me No, they did they did they did pee for. They didn't do anything with it. They just wanted to make sure you were on steroids. Yeah. I asked them if they would or when they you know, and the the answer I got, "Well, if we did that, it would be you and Nogueira would be the only fighters Yeah, I always wondered. I always wondered like how much of what you saw was uh guys that were sauced up. We know some guys were sauced up, for sure. Yeah. I think a lot of sports have that evolution in there. Before you know, before they get big enough that Yeah.

38:50be concerned about that, they're already doing it. Yeah. Well, then there was the testosterone replacement era. Yeah. And I was the first one to get on that. Yeah. And I and I was like, "There's no way I'm doing I don't want to do that." And you know, the doctor's like, "Well, you'd feel a lot better." And and I asked the athletic commission if I even could. They're like, "Yeah, if you get a doctor's prescription and you know, they say you need it, no problem." I was like, "Oh, really? Okay." And then everybody started kind of abusing it. They abused the [ __ ] out of it. everybody. Well, those days the Vitor days. Everybody talks about TRT Vitor. Yeah. Cuz testosterone replacement Vitor was [ __ ] Jesus Christ, he was scary. I fought him in Pride, he tested positive in Vegas. Oh, really? Cuz it we we were in Vegas. Oh.

39:40Their first uh Pride event in Vegas. Well, you were one of the only guys who didn't show a performance decline when you got off of it. Right. No, I didn't I wasn't taking much, but but I was and I always even when they weren't testing me like they do now that they they randomly show up. And I was asking for for the UFC to do that for years even though now they're getting rid of it, but Well, they're getting rid of it, but they're implementing some sort of a new program called Drug Free Sport. Right. But I don't know what that means. It might might their logo might be a wink. Yeah, it depends on how much money you're making them. Yeah, I think they wanted a little bit more control of when the tests were going on because you saw that they would show up at 6:00 in the morning and test guys on weigh-in days and [ __ ] like that. Well, I mean

40:27and and I had I had to deal with that when I wrestled for you know, on the national team top three guys were subjected to that as well and I had that for years. You know, and then you know, I started that's why I was like I don't want to do that, but they're like you can. But I would test myself at least once or twice every training camp so I could if anybody questioned me or how I was doing it I could show that I'm not abusing it. This is what my levels were during training camp. So I did that all on my own just because Mhm. even though I would only get tested by them at the fight. Did you have to do anything differently once you got off of it once they removed the TRT exemptions? No. Didn't do anything different, just stopped taking it? Yeah, just a lot of that shit's in your head anyway, so I was like [ __ ] it, I'm just

41:23At that time, yeah, I mean I didn't I'm sure that I was a little bit affected, but I felt like yeah, I could push through it no problem and I did. And I and as I got older though, like like in my early 40s mid-40s, I really started feeling the the age a little bit as far as just not recovering. Mhm. Did you adjust your training to to handle that? Yeah, I mean I would I would I made my training camps like a month longer or 3 weeks longer just to kind of ease into it and not not really go real hard for the first two three weeks and then really start a hard training camp and then taper off a little bit better, but just a little bit shorter practices with more intensity. And so going back to being a pioneer, I know you hate that word, but you really are. I don't hate it. How did you guys figure out what's the best way to train? Like who helped you put together camps

42:25like because you're going from this one discipline wrestling which you excelled at and now you're competing in MMA and there's so many different ways to do it and nobody really knew exactly the right way to do it. There was a lot of like different camps were doing it different ways. Right. How did you guys figure out? I don't know. I I think you know, knowing how much there was to learn in the sport you we couldn't we kind of broke it up into different categories, you know, one day we're going to spar hard one you know, but we also needed to learn how to grapple on the ground. You know, how to how to use our wrestling to control certain positions. So I I think just knowing that we didn't spend every day sparring hard or you know, three four days a week sparring hard cuz we needed to learn the other [ __ ] too. So I think it just

43:18naturally went that way and and then as we got more older a little bit older and and more experienced in the sport you know, kind of fine tune that a little bit on certain days we do certain harder things and really try not to beat your brain up too much uh every day, just one day maybe. Yeah, it's kind of it's interesting that even today there's different schools of thought. Like Sean Strickland spars basically every day. Right. Whereas Max Holloway at my gym for like 3 years. Oh, yeah? Was he? He's a wild boy. Yeah, kind of had to let him go. Oh, did you? The crazier days? Yeah, no, he just kind of gets too involved talking [ __ ] about I can see that. I I liked him in the gym. I liked him there. He was a great training partner and you need at least one guy Yeah. in your gym that that does that and goes hard and makes everybody else go hard. Yeah. When

44:21they're going against them. So I liked it, but Other people didn't. Yeah, he just you know, he just was too disrespectful to teammates and stuff and Oh, I see. And As the youngster Sean Strickland. Yeah, no, this is a while ago. I I I definitely see that and you know, I'm you know, always rooted for him when he left and you know, it wasn't like I was like I hope that guy you know, no, I I always rooted for him. I thought he had a ton of potential. I was yelling at him to go up a weight class cuz he was always trying to make 170. I'm like dude, you need to go 185. You'd feel a lot better. You you compete just the you'd be fine competing up there, but everybody's always mentally afraid Mhm. to be against the bigger guys. Yeah, he's a different fighter at 185 than he was at 170. Right. At 170 you could see his compromised. Right. How I mean he had to

45:14cut 25 lb easy, right? Yeah, now he's big. He's way too big for 170. But when you saw his fight with Adesanya, were you shocked? I I only saw parts of that. I didn't see the whole thing. I was somewhere else. I didn't get to see it. It's [ __ ] amazing. Yeah, no, I I saw parts of it and yeah, he he looked great. He looked [ __ ] amazing. The crazy thing is how good his defense is. I thought he would do well against him. I didn't think he'd do well just standing up with him there. I mean, I thought Adesanya would get would outpoint him a little bit. Uh but I thought Sean would take him down and beat the [ __ ] out of him if he got on top. Well, that's what a lot of people don't realize. Sean has a very good ground game. No, very good, yeah. Very good. He just doesn't use it very often. He's black

46:00belt in jiu-jitsu, good wrestling, good takedown defense, you know, he's solid everywhere, but he just loves to bang. He loves to stand in front of guys. He doesn't have like huge power. He's probably getting better at putting it in better places now. But he wasn't like he's not a big knockout guy, but he definitely adds them up and and really he's by far one of the biggest pressure fighters Yeah. that just moves forward all the time. Well, he's also able to do that because of his defense. His defense is so underrated. hit. So underrated. And in that Adesanya fight you saw it so clearly. really hard to hit. So good at moving just out of distance and then putting more pressure back on you, checking those those calf kicks. He's quick. Yeah. I was I was super impressed with that fight. Yeah. And it's even more impressive, you know,

46:52coming back from an accident like he had too. Mhm. Yeah. And talks about it. It's like my quad's all [ __ ] up on his right leg. Right. It's like his one leg is just like the quad's not even attached. Yeah. Which is nuts. Yeah, no, it it it's but again, it just shows what the body can do if you just let it. Yeah. If you just mentally tough enough to push through something. Well, he changed his style a little bit because of it, you know, he stands different than most people. Stands very straight up. He always has. Yeah? Always? Yeah. Yeah. When I'd spar him I had to I quit aiming for his head. I just aimed for his chest and it kind of stopped him. And then I could you know, follow up. If I hit him in the chest I could follow up and hit him again, but he's hard to hit. Yeah, it's it's impressive and he's the only guy doing that sort of Philly shell

47:45style at a championship level. It's like very interesting seeing him out there. He looks different than everybody else. Yeah, he's he's quick. That really helps him not get hit also. Yeah, but it's just also I think when we're going back to the different schools of thought in terms of sparring, he spars every day. It's most of his training is sparring. Right. So when you see him fight Adesanya in the fifth round the guy wasn't even breathing heavy. I mean, he looked like ready to go another five more after that. He He's got like just his natural ability is his cardio. Mhm. Among you know, he knows how to fight well, too, but naturally he just has cardio for days. Well, I I got to think that has a lot to do with constantly sparring. So the sparring thing is not there's not a lot of tension. Very loose and very composed. Very efficient. Right. Whereas some guys

48:39like But then again, you look at Max Holloway, he's about as good as it gets and that guy doesn't spar at all anymore. He says I don't want to get beat up. He shouldn't. Yeah, he just says Especially the way his fights are typically wars, you know. Oh, he's had some [ __ ] crazy wars. Crazy wars. Crazy wars. But he's like I want to go into those fights fresh. And I think that was something that he picked up during training camps that like some of the training camps where he sparred a lot, he was a little beat up by the time he actually got into the the octagon. And so now he's like look, I already know how to fight. So I just do drills and hit mitts and pads and constant conditioning and and it works. Right. Yeah, yeah, for sure. But that's what's interesting is like there's no one perfect way to do it. It depends upon the athlete, depends

49:23upon the skill set. Right. No, for sure and and you know, you could like I set certain days to do certain things because of you know, how tough certain things are on certain days and you want to go hard then you want to kind of take it easy for a day. Easier, I should say, but it doesn't work for everybody. Some guys just need need a little bit more, some guys need less. Do you think that's something that you just need to tune in on your own with a coach and with the people that you work with and just figure it out over time, multiple camps? Yeah, I guess, but I mean, for the most part, you get what you get out put into it out of it. So, if if someday one day you're not feeling it, you know, you kind of get in there and you get lazy, you might get beat up a little bit, but that means you you're you're having to push through some adversity to kind of keep going,

50:19which is also a good thing in training to have to do some days. And and on the the flip side, you might feel great someday and you're the one beating the other guy up in practice and and I think it's good for the guys that get beat up to have to see how they respond to that. Right. And to have that experience once you actually get in the fight. Right, because it it's definitely going to happen in a fight. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think was your toughest fight? Do you have a toughest fight? I have a toughest night of fighting. That was when I did that tournament, the Rings tournament, the 32-man unlimited weight class tournament tournament. I forgot about that one. How many times did you fight that night? Well, the first event I fought twice and then I came back and fought three times in the night for the for the How much of a gap

51:12between the first two fights and the So, I fought Gilbert Yvel, Yvel, whatever his name is, uh, the first fight that night and and had about an hour, probably, which is pretty good, 45 minutes to an hour. And then I fought Big Nog. And he, uh, [ __ ] my knee up. He we're in the clinch and he jumps to guard and his ass landed on my leg and just popped my MCL. So, my leg really hurt, my knee did. I made it through that fight, beat him. And then I had about 20 minutes, 25 minutes. There was one fight in between. Oh, Jesus. And then I had to fight Babalu in the finals and Randy was in my corner and and, uh, Ryan Parsons and and there I I found out afterwards they're like, "Oh, there's no [ __ ] way he's going to be able to fight." He was I was just a bucket of [ __ ] out there in the locker room. It hurt and then, uh,

52:14you know, but that fight I never made that much money. It was kind of it was this was in the year 2000, so I think the most I had, uh, ever made from wrestling, you know, and with everything combined was when I fought in the UFC the the year before that and made like 20 grand. This final fight was worth 200 grand. Wow. Just with the win or lose, it was a $200,000 difference. Just the one fight. Yeah, the finals. The champ got everything. It was basically winner take all type of thing. If I would have taken second place, I would have had five fights for about 30 grand total. And and I made 230 grand instead. And then that's Yeah, and I'll tell you what, when I went went out there and they they played the national anthem beforehand, that got me pumped up, ready to go. And the thought of $200,000. Did you tape your knee up or anything?

53:09Uh, no. But I mean, there wasn't really much time and I just went out there and fought, kind of defended takedowns and and this tournament was, uh, they had a little bit different rules. It was it was two fives. And, uh, the kind of like the ultimate fighter and a possibility of another five if it's Mhm. if it's a draw. And Babalu was a [ __ ] stud, too. Yeah, he was him and him and Nogueira were both pretty big, like like 40 lb bigger than me, probably 45. Babalu had one of the most horrific KOs early in his career. He fought Brad Kohler and he soccer kicked him. Oh. With wrestling shoes on. Remember those days? that. Brad Kohler was a like a bodybuilder. He was a tank. Yeah, I remember him. Yeah, he was a tank. And Babalu stuffed his shots and and got him down and soccer kicked him into the next realm. Oof. Yeah, I think I remember that. Yeah, see

54:10if you can find that. Babalu was an animal. Very tough. Yeah, no, he was tough. He him and Nogueira up till the time I when I had fought them, they'd submitted everybody in the tournament that they'd fought so far. So, Nogueira had had Here it is. finished three guys. He hit him with a lot of low kicks. That was back in the wrestling shoes days. Very interesting. The difference when your amount of grip that you have with wrestling shoes. Big [ __ ] difference, right? Yeah, okay. No, for sure. Yeah, he's he is tough. So, here it is. He gets him right here. Soccer kick. What show is that in? Is that in Brazil? Boy, I don't know. I don't remember. 2000 What does it say? World Extreme Was just so ancient. January 15th of 2000. Just different [ __ ] rule sets. About a month later is when I fought him in that tournament. I think it was like

55:21February, the King of Kings, uh, finals. World Extreme Fighting. Go and plow. Jens Pulver was in there. No [ __ ] Wow. That Phil Johns dude looks like Justin Gaethje. He does. I thought it was at first. Oh, Pele fought [ __ ] Pat Miletich. I forgot about that fight, too. John Lewis, Jeremy Horn. Wow. And Nogueira. Yeah. Rodrigo Yeah. Matt Hughes was in there. Wow. Bunch of legends. Just those days, man. Did you know you that's never going to happen again, where you have just the the emergence of a sport like this that becomes one of the biggest sports in the world. Yeah. I think they should do tournaments again. You think so? Multiple fights in a in a night. Just It would be wild. I think they should start doing that and then, uh, it it kind of gears it up to being an Olympic sport after that. What do you do though if you have, um,

56:26injuries? Like what if Well, I think you I think you got to tame down the the rules a little bit, but there's typically alternates when they do any MMA tournament. Right. But they have an alternate each how but I mean, if someone like say if you have a war against one like say if say if you have a war against somebody and then the in the next round the guy who also fought, he has to pull out and then they put in an alternate and he's fresh. Yeah, I mean, but they make the alternates fight. Oh, do they? Like my fight with Bustamante was an alternate fight. Oh, I see. I see. So, the alternates fight and then they get to fight. fought again that night. I'm thankful I didn't. I wouldn't have any thumbs and a and a blown out knee. Wow. Yeah, that would work. That would work where you have, uh, a potential alternate. You might need two. Well, if

57:16if you needed the other guy, I guess you would take the loser of the alternate, right? I guess. I guess you would, unless you get KO'd. Yeah. Yeah. Well, even in it's not worth it. Right. If it's in Japan, like dust him off, put some ice on his head. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. Is it is interesting when you see tournaments though because it's like you have a built-in super fight, right? You have you see over the night guys winning and you know what their style and so you're looking forward to the match up when it comes to the main event. Right. I mean, that was the early UFC. Right. Yeah, I thought I thought UFC 17 was tournament. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah, the tournaments were wild. The first one I went to was UFC 12. That was when, uh, Vitor fought Tra Telligman and then he fought Scott Ferrozzo. And he won the heavyweight tournament and he was 19. Right. Yeah.

58:07And then Randy came in after that, I guess. I just don't Yeah, Randy was That was back when Vitor was like 240 when he fought Randy. He looked like his traps started at the top of his ears. He had a little bitty head on top of a huge body. He was crazy big. He was so bulked up. But I just wonder like what athletic commissions would allow you to do that. I know Los Angeles just a few years ago, um, when they had Glory Last Man Standing, they had a big tournament there. That was a big kickboxing tournament. Yeah. I wonder if they would allow something like that with some athletic commissions with MMA. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I I I wouldn't see why they wouldn't. I mean, It'd be exciting. tame tame it down a little bit, kind of like they do the ultimate fighter, but Mhm. you know, have it all in one night, not over Right. a time.

59:02Well, it certainly would be exciting. I think the options that would be interesting are, um, one 15-minute round instead of three fives. I think that would be very interesting. And then a tournament. That that would also be very interesting if they decided to do I mean, if someone wants to stand out from another organization, like the PFL or one of those like the PFL's got some weird point system that they do that I don't really understand. You get a certain amount of points for a submission, a certain amount of points for a KO, and it's like you're ahead in the score. Is that like to go for the whole season to see where you ranked and then Yeah. It's It's the whole season was a tournament anyway. I guess they it's only certain weight classes or the whole every It's It's weight classes. I well, I don't know if it they do it with all

59:46weight classes, but I think that's just how they they run the organization. I hope they stop doing that. Well, they they're now going to own Bellator. Yeah, which is interesting. They got a lot of cash, apparently. A lot of oil money. Going in that direction. A lot of investor money. Yeah. Listen, the more big organizations the better, I think, for for the athletes, for sure, for the fans, for sure. And they have Francis Ngannou. You know, Francis Ngannou becomes their heavyweight, you know, poster guy and you know, he's their heavyweight champion. We It could be very interesting if they throw a bunch of money at it. No, I agree. I think it's great for the sport and you know, great for the the fighters, the athletes. definitely great for the fighters. The fighters can't just have the UFC. They need And it's good for the UFC, too. Everybody needs competition.

60:36You know, the UFC needs the And it it's great for the fighters. If you got the PFL bidding on you, you got One Championship bidding on you, and you got the UFC bidding on you, that's a good place to be. Oh, for sure. If there's only the UFC around, you got to take what they give you and you know, kind of in that boat for a bit. Mhm. When the UFC bought Pride and then Yeah. I was in the UFC again and then Strikeforce came along and I went there and then they bought Strikeforce. Yeah, that's right. That's right. the press, I said Dana is like a stalker He loves me so much he's got to buy the You remember Affliction? They were out for a hot minute. Yeah, that I think they they basically broke the bank when Josh Barnett tested positive. He was supposed to fight Fedor and the fight they just canceled the whole event. Yeah. And never had another show. Dana

61:30didn't know about it. I'm pretty sure he was gambling. I think he was playing blackjack. And I texted him and I said, "Hey, did you hear what's going on?" I go, "Josh Barnett tested positive." He called me up. He goes, "What the [ __ ] going on?" And then I I told him. He's Oh, yeah. He was so happy. have been nice for I think Trump was getting ready to be involved as a He was at the event to watch or he was at the previous event to watch. And I think they were kind of grooming him to be an investor. Interesting. That would have been interesting. Yeah, but yeah. That was back when everybody loved Isn't that crazy? Boy, what a [ __ ] things change. He was in it all the rap songs. Rappers would always talk about Trump. Everybody loved Trump. He was like this wheeling dealing billionaire character that everybody enjoyed. Yeah.

62:26I felt like he did a decent job. As president? When you look at his regulations, it's it certainly helped the economy. I mean, that that guy who was the head were in a lot better spot then than now, for sure. Without a doubt. Well, there's a lot of [ __ ] happened. COVID and the world The world's The world scares the [ __ ] out of me right now. Right now, I'm like, boy, this is not good. None of this This Ukraine thing not good. Yeah, everything not good. Everything scares the [ __ ] out of me. I'm looking at all of it going, [ __ ] Like there's no good solutions to the Middle East. All of it looks terrible. And the Ukraine thing looks terrible. It just it just scares the [ __ ] out of me because it's just like all it takes is one person to [ __ ] launch a nuke and the world changes forever. Right.

63:13And I've never felt like that was a possibility in my lifetime until now. Yeah, I mean, this is it is a little bit on the unsure realm of how I you know, I feel definitely a little bit unsure about what what's going to happen. Yeah. Very. Yeah. Yeah, I'm looking at like moving to Iceland or some [ __ ] Like where Where's going to be safe from the fallout? some more research on aliens and figure out where to where the next vacation spot is. Well, that would be fascinating if the aliens come down and stop it all. Yeah. If they just go, "Listen, you [ __ ] We've been watching, waiting. It's like the way I describe it is like two brothers fighting in the backyard. The parents like, "Hang on, let them [ __ ] work this out and just figure out when one of them grabs a rock, then run in. Okay, enough. That's enough.

64:05Yeah, I don't know. Just I've never felt more like the world's on the verge of being forever ruined. This is what it feels like right now. Just feels like I've never felt more like we're on I mean, this is must have been what it felt like at the the at the beginning of World War III or World War rather. Don't say III. I know. I'm sorry. 40 inches left. So, what have you been up to other than uh obsessing over hunting? Oh, that's the that's my main hobby these days, but uh other than that, um you know, running the club. We have this comedy club that you went to last night, the Mothership. I was impressed. It was pretty cool. Thank you. It's been fun. That's That's a nice thing cuz you know, in LA, we had the Comedy Store and one of the things that I realized when I moved out here, uh there's no real There was no real home base. And all these comics that

65:03already moved out here, there was a [ __ ] ton of comedians that decided, "Fuck California. I can't deal with this anymore. I can't perform." Cuz they were locking everybody down for like a year and a half. They wouldn't let anybody do shows. They wouldn't even let them do shows in the parking lot of the Comedy Store. It was the whole thing was so crazy. It didn't make any sense. And out here, we were doing full shows indoors. Yeah, it's amazing how that how that is, huh? Yeah, and nothing happened. You know, "We're all going to die." No one died. I shut my gym down for 6 weeks. Oh, that's it? Yeah. Nice. That's good. Yeah. No, I live in a good spot. That is a good spot. our county sheriff, but you know, said, "Fuck you, Governor Newsom. You're a hypocrite. We're I'm not going to arrest people for you know, being responsible and owning

65:50businesses and still trying to make their money and and keep it afloat." Well, it destroyed LA. I mean, it destroyed the restaurant industry. It really did. It destroyed it. Some they at one point in time, they lost somewhere around 70% of all restaurants. It was just insane. Wow. Just insane. And they never corrected. Cuz you know what it is? The people that run the government, they're the amount of money they make is not dependent on whether or not businesses stay open. If it was, they would have never shut jack [ __ ] down. If the if the if they worked it like say if you work for a company and you're a CEO and the company makes a profit, you get bonuses. You get bonuses based on the amount of profit the company gets. If the whole state lost money and the economy crashed, that should be reflected in your paycheck. I agree, 100%.

66:39And if the whole state kicks ass, that should be reflected in your paycheck. And if that was the case, you would have seen a completely different response. They would have been like, "Ladies and gentlemen, you just need to get vitamin D and everybody needs to start drinking water and exercising and losing weight and here's some ways to boost your immune system." Instead of everybody has to stay indoors and all the kids have to [ __ ] be home and mask up and it's just nuts. It's just nuts to watch it all work and that so many people stepped in line. So many people are like, "Okay." And nobody got angry about it. I was 1 month in, I was like, "What the [ __ ] is going on? I I can't" I started looking in May of 2020 because I was like, "These [ __ ] are never going to let this go. They're never going to let this go. They they

67:24keep ramping up all the new regulations and ramping up what can be closed." They shut out outdoor dining, which made no [ __ ] sense. Right. None of it made any sense. And that's when I started moving. When I came out here, first thing we did with my my family went to a restaurant. We sat indoors and my kids are like, "We can eat at a restaurant? This is crazy." And I'm and we went on a lake on Lake Austin. We were looking at this house and we went on a boat on the lake and there was people jumping in the water and drinking and and playing music and my kids are like, "I want to live here." So, then it was just talking my wife into it. It's like, "Come on. Like listen, we could just If we don't like it, we could always move back." Where was she from from LA area? lived we both lived in LA for 20 plus years. Yeah. You know, it's like I had

68:07all these friends there. I had all my my businesses there. Everything was there. You know, comedy was there. Everything was there. But I just didn't like I don't like people telling me what to do, especially people that are hypocrites. Right. photos of Newsom came out when he was dining indoors with no mask on and it's like these [ __ ] kids were still going to school at a private school, yeah. Yeah, all of it. The whole thing was [ __ ] It was just the whole thing is [ __ ] You're just allowing these people that I never thought about who the governor was before. I never thought about who the mayor was. And I never really cared. I didn't care. I did what I had to do and hopefully they did a good job and they didn't [ __ ] the economy up. That's all. we need Joe Rogan in there.

68:49[ __ ] that, dude. You don't want me. You don't want me in there. I would rather have you than Yeah, you probably would. You probably want to have me in there, but they'd probably just assassinate me. It wouldn't take long before I'd be like, "Hey, why are Why are we spending money on all these things? [ __ ] out of here with this." "How many people are working on the homeless committee?" Oh, [ __ ] "Get out of here. We uh we looked into that. The homeless thing is nuts. There's people on this whatever governing body that's supposed to be handling the homeless crisis. There's people on that that are making $240,000 a year. They have zero incentive to get rid of the homeless problem cuz then they don't have a job. Like what are you going to do? You're going to trans transfer over to somewhere else and make the same

69:29amount of money? You've got Yeah, they could probably use that money to to actually help homeless out. I don't know how the [ __ ] they do it. They they've ruined it They've got it's gotten so bad that I just don't know how you pull the how you turn it around. Well, I think a lot of homeless a lot of it is lot stems from getting mixed up with drug use and being being dependent. Mhm. Drug use and mental illness, that's the primary cause of most of it. You know, and they try to make it seem as if it's just like people down on their luck like There's a few. Probably should have finished that wall. Would have helped. That's what the craziest thing is. That two things are happening simultaneously. The southern border wide open and people are pushing for people to be able to vote with no ID. Those two things are insane. No, I absolutely

70:19Did you see that they're sending people back from Venezuela? Cuz Venezuela has a communist government and the people that come over to here though they're they escape socialism. And those people are most likely to vote like Cubans do in America. Cubans in America vote Republican. Right. And so when they're having these issues Yeah, they're trying to like actively send Venezuelans back to Venezuela. They're getting away with it. Yeah. So transparent. It's so transparent. I don't care what their other excuses are. The fact that they're targeting Venezuelans and that Venezuelans 100% hate socialism, the one the ones that come over here. It's nuts. I mean, look, there's always these periods in history where things get bad and then they get better again. They get bad and they get better again. I mean, things were great for a long time, but

71:06they are on a slide and we got to pull out of that [ __ ] slide. Yeah, for sure. And if we don't, it's not good. I'm real nervous about next year. Real nervous. No matter who wins. Right. The country's going to be in a frothy uproar because of this [ __ ] up media that we have. Right. No, I I think they're the biggest problem that we have. Yeah. No, they are. They're they're the enemy of the people. not just Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Well, their business is just get people riled up, get people paying attention. And the most outrageous [ __ ] that they can say, the most outrageous stories they can publish, those are the ones that are going to get clicks. So, those are the ones they publish. And then everybody gets into this frothy panic. And the meanwhile It's amazing the spin that they could put on, you

71:49know, if if both sides were airing the same exact story, it sounds like two completely different things. Yeah. Yeah, that's crazy. There's no like real like objective news source that everybody trusts anymore. There's not one thing where you go, oh, this is the bubba bubba news. They're always legit, above board. It's complicated issue and they're going to lay out all the different sides to it. No. It's not good. It's not good. It's not good and I don't know how it It just sucks you have to think about it. Yeah, no, I For most of my life, I didn't really think about it that much. I never did. I always worried about wrestling and Yeah. then fighting and then, you know, just Simpler things. Yeah. Getting [ __ ] getting better at what I did. Yeah. And I would never never go into politics, so it didn't matter to me. You know, I never really cared like just

72:51like what you said. I I was the same way. I didn't didn't really pay attention to much of it until recently. I talked to Dana White once. I said, you should run for president. And he's like, dude, the skeletons that would come out of my closet, it would be like the Walking Dead. Yeah, that's absolutely true. Of course. Of course. I mean, that's Yeah. They don't give a [ __ ] if you'd be good at your job. They just give a [ __ ] about getting their side in. Right. Yeah. And this country's so polarized. The the whole right versus Yeah, I feel like racism is a lot worse than it was before all this it just because They talk about it all the time. They're talking about it too much. And and it when it's not even there, they're still talking about it. Yeah, they're making an issue when it's not even there. the pot. Mhm. Yeah, because that's what

73:41their job is. Their job is just to get people outraged. I mean, if your business is just to get people fired up and paying attention to things and angry, that's what they do. It's just our job to kind of like figure that out now. And I think trust in mainstream media is at an all-time low. I I I don't think there's ever been a time in my life where people trust the Well, I know that I don't trust them, but I don't know how even I don't know. Well, no one's watching them. CNN got its lowest ratings since the 1990s the other day. They had 43,000 people watching. How crazy that is? And that's a and that 43,000 people worldwide or just in the states? I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I just I was just It's crazy. Yeah. But even if it's just in the states, that's that's nuts. That's nothing. Especially when they do the points to points on on how many millions now.

74:36Yeah, I mean, that's literally a Taylor And not even a big one. It's one of her smaller concerts. Wow. Yeah, it's nuts. But I would like to see the UFC in in an arena. I think the UFC could do that. An outdoor arena? Yeah, that Raiders arena. I think if they could do that arena. Like what Pride just did K1 did back in the Tokyo Dome. Saitama Super Arena. No, no, that's a enclosed. Well, it I think yeah, it just stretches. They had a big arena. I didn't go to it, but they had like 80 some thousand people there. At that I think it was a New Year's Eve show. The only problem with that is you have to hope it doesn't rain. Yeah. And I think they had people skydiving. Oh, look obsessed with Las Vegas fear eyes UFC card at venue in 2024. I've heard about it. I haven't been in there yet. Have you been in there? No, I haven't. I've seen it in videos and

75:34stuff. It looks insane. When you're inside of it, the entire thing is a screen. Like everything, the ceiling, all the Have you seen it? Have you seen the videos of it? No, I haven't. It's [ __ ] bananas. Like your concert there. I've heard that it's crazy. Yeah. Crazy good. Crazy good. Yeah. Oh my god. How many is it seat, Jamie? 18,000. 18? Yeah. Oh, that'd be perfect for a UFC. Yeah. That and then you could show the replays on the ceiling. You could show the replays everywhere. So the guy knocked out could see it, too. Oh boy, yeah. As he's on his back, he can see the the head kick land. When you look at the level of fighting today and and think about how it was when you started, do you are you proud? Are you proud that you were part of it in the beginning? Well, yeah, I'm definitely proud that I was part of that that journey, but I mean I don't know.

76:27I I I I still feel like there's certain things missing on some of these guys, you know, they're just not great at certain yeah, at some at any thing any one thing, some of them. But they're really good at everything, but not spectacular. Not specialists. Yeah. Yeah. But you have a few guys that are specialists like Paheeda. You know, there's a few of the elite kickboxers. you see more, you know, you see where the holes are in their game, too. Yeah. I don't know, but yeah, I think the it's definitely evolved into you know, some guys that are extremely more a lot more skilled and talented than back in the day, for sure. For sure. I just think maybe I think what's missing is some of the just the old school attitude. Well, the old school guys did it cuz they wanted to do it and there wasn't really much money in it at all. You had to be really kind of crazy.

77:24You know? Yeah. Well, you had to be a wild [ __ ] to enter into UFC 1 or UFC 2 or UFC 3. I mean, it was just you had to be [ __ ] crazy. It was funny. I I I came home from the '92 Olympics and I was in my hometown in Victorville, which is in the middle of nowhere. And I went out to the local bar and some guy was in there talking to me about, hey, you know, we're we're getting ready to put on this show, you know, we're going to see who the toughest toughest guys are, you know, from we're going to have a wrestler, boxers and and and he's describing the UFC. And and it happened about 3 months after that. He's like, yeah, we're putting together this show. We're about to do it, you know, blah blah blah. And next thing you know, the UFC started. Wow. I have no idea who that guy was. Just some guy you met in a bar? Yeah. I wonder who it was.

78:19Yeah, I don't know. I wonder what his gig was. What what what role he had in it. I found out about it um from a local video store. I think someone had told me about it and then I rented UFC 2. It was '94 and I just moved to LA and I remember watching it and going, holy [ __ ] they did it. Because I always remembered thinking when I was back when I was kickboxing and taekwondo like everybody always wondered, what would happen if a judo guy fought a wrestler? What would happen if a boxer fought a karate guy? But to see it all actually happen like, holy [ __ ] this is nuts. And that was back when, you know, Royce Gracie, it was just kind of getting started and then jujitsu was everywhere. Just jujitsu schools just popped up everywhere. Right. And it was just like a complete revolution of of martial arts where

79:12there'd been never been anything like that before. And then it was there was that John Peretti thing. Was it World Extreme Fighting? Remember he had that He had that event. With with with John Lewis, right? Yeah. Yep. John Lewis and that was um Mario Sperry was in that, Maurice Smith, Conan Silveira. You know, there's a lot of like good fighters that came out of that as well. There was a few of these organizations that were emerging. And then in Japan, there was Rings and K-1 and you know, and then Pride emerged. And at one point time, Pride was bigger than than the UFC. It was [ __ ] huge. Yeah. I think they just hit them and K-1 got in a pissing match with, you know, with something and they they really kind of crippled each other. I can't imagine how they did it. It was so big in Japan. I can't imagine that it fell off as much of it did

80:09because it was so much bigger in Japan than the UFC ever was. And they I think they they had a bigger audience uh internationally also. Not in the states than the UFC, but internationally like in Europe and and Mhm. cuz they would really get a lot of European fighters and Brazilians. Mhm. What was It was a hardcore There was a hardcore base in America that watched it. I remember guys from uh jujitsu school like when they would air it live, they'd come over my house at like 3:00 in the morning to watch it. I forget when it would air. And or sometimes it would air like you would have to like stay offline and not find the results for like a while and then try to watch it. Yeah, and they delayed it. But but those events seem so insane. Those events seem so incredible. What was the biggest crowd that you've fought in front of over there? I think I don't know.

81:0365, 70. Si- somewhere in that range. At At Tokyo Dome, like it was sold out for New Year's Eve. Wow. I don't even remember who I What is that It I don't know any other day, but it definitely a lot more energy. What I liked was, you know, as a fighter they they did like their opening ceremony was pretty pretty cool to me. And you know, you you get up there and and they do this big show and then they introduce all the fighters. I think I think that was pretty cool a way to do it and and it's just part of their culture too that, you know, putting the those athletes. Yeah. Yeah. So, I do miss that as well as other things with the show, but they they put on And this is what I always say. Everybody used to say, "Oh, what's better, you know, who's better fighters, the UFC or Pride, you know?" I'm like, "I don't know. I think I think they both have great fighters

82:01and they're probably pretty comparable, but there's no comparison to the show they put on. Pride just was a show in addition to the fights. And also the walk-in. Like the walkout was giant. It was crazy. Pyrotechnics and [ __ ] giant screens and it was I mean, it was an event. No, it was It was unbelievable. Yeah. And I put certain fighters in that era up against anybody. I mean, I think I think Cro Cop in his prime over there was one of the scariest heavyweights ever. Fedor in his prime over there without a doubt if not the best heavyweight of all time, definitely there's like it's a There's an argument between him and a couple other guys. I agree. You know, there was so many great fights Yeah, there was a quite a few and and, you know, that's when when they started trying to do it, you know, kind of work with the UFC a

83:01little bit, UFC would send in some of their guys over. Chuck and and Rampage would get over there. Even though Rampage had fought there before. You know, but and I think that that 10-minute first round really hurt some of those guys. Yeah, it was different. They sent Chuck over there. Remember he KO'd Alistair at uh 205. Yeah. That was Ben and Alistair was skinny. Yeah, and he had a he fought with uh what's his name? Uh He's from Dallas, I think, from uh Guy Mezger. Guy Mezger. Yeah, that's right. Uh Mhm. And I think Guy was beating him, knocked him down, and then, you know, I don't know what happened, but he got caught. Yeah, Chuck caught him. Chuck did bang. Chuck had crazy chin, too. His His ability to absorb shots was nuts. Yeah. He was willing to. And obviously that cost him in the long run. Yeah. But he had an iron chin. He would just bite

84:00down on his mouthpiece and just eat shots. Yeah, you try not to be known for that. Yeah, it never really turns out well in the long run. Almost every guy that winds up, you know, that has that sort of style eventually winds up getting KO'd. Eventually the the foundation just falls apart. Yeah. Doesn't take much sometimes and you hit and you get it in the right spot. Yeah. Well, you know, do you do you have KOs that are like some of your most like the Hector Lombard one? I was just watching that the other night. That one was nuts cuz we never saw you throw a head kick before. I threw um three head kicks or high kicks. I don't they weren't close to the head because I just wasn't that flexible against uh uh Rich Franklin in England, but I I fell to my ass every time. I slipped. So, I'd thrown them before, but and I'd throw them in practice, but against

84:56lefties I kind of had this thing where I kind of changed levels like I'm going to kind of look at your legs and and my head kick comes up there and he's short, so I was able to land it. That's a guy that I think people miss his prime, too cuz his prime was in Bellator. He was [ __ ] starching people in Bellator. Hector Lombard in Bellator was a [ __ ] terror. He was a terror. He was so athletic. And he was so fast and powerful and that judo background, you know. I remember uh when he came to the UFC, he had a few fights like that. Like the Nate Marquardt fight was a good example of that where you saw like that same sort of Hector Lombard. Yeah, he comes in fast and strong and then, you know, he had to weather the storm a little bit. Well, you caught him with the head kick and I think if I remember correctly, you hit him with a back fist.

85:54Uh back elbow. A back elbow. And then you elbowed him on the ground. Yeah, that was the the elbow on the ground was that. came here from um Australia is he Mhm. He was Cuban, but he went to Australia for and lived there. When he first came to the states, he came to my gym first for about 3 months and uh nobody liked him. He was a big bully. Just trying to knock people out warming up or Oh, really? Trying you know, just when you're supposed to be going easy, just trying to hurt people. Uh-huh. And and it would happen every time I'd be out of town. I'd come back. I'd hear about it. And Sokoudjou was in there, too, and he [ __ ] put him in his place once, but so when I went to fight Hector, you know, the media is like asked me, you know, "Well, Hector's saying how he he never he left your gym cuz he never felt welcome, blah blah blah." I'm like,

86:47"Well, I never had a problem with him, but everyone in my gym thought he was a big bully. Yeah, and that's all I said about it. And we're in the face-off like week of the fight. And and he asked me "Who says I'm a Who says I'm a bully?" And I'm like, "What did you say?" And yeah, "Who Who says I'm a bully?" And I'm like, "Everybody. Everybody said you're a bully." And my Well, "Who?" "Everybody at my gym." "Not me, but everybody at my gym." And he just couldn't get over that and I'm like, "You [ __ ] This isn't the time or place for that. I'm going to [ __ ] you up." So, that those last couple elbows were a little more personal. It's probably the only fight I've ever really felt that way that I really wanted to [ __ ] that guy up. Not the Bisping fight? No, I just I it was just a fight to me and I didn't like him, but

87:42you know, he wasn't a guy that I'd hang out with, but you know, he he was just him and I knew that I would beat him. But that logo that you have, the flying punch, that is the ultimate [ __ ] you. That logo is so wild that you put that as your logo. But I don't even know why he's upset about that cuz he's not even in it. It's no bu- Yeah, but it's exa- You know, he knows what it is. Everybody knows what it is. a chalk line on the ground underneath him. I remember when I saw it when I saw that logo for the first time, I went, "Oh, shit." Because that I mean, you flattened him with that right hand. I mean, he was out cold and then you launched yourself through the air and smashed him with that right hand. Yeah. And it was that but that becoming your logo was one of the wildest things. I can't believe. I mean, that is It's a crazy logo. I

88:39mean, everyone has to know what that is because otherwise it wouldn't even make sense. Like what is he doing? Right. Is he about to do a cartwheel? You know what I mean? It's not like, you know, you're throwing a head kick or you're throwing a punch. It's like you're flying and your arm is above you like this. Well, what about Air Jordan's logo? There's no basket there. That's true, but no one winds up with a massive concussion after that, you know. Yeah, it's a great logo though. It really is. Somebody had photoshopped him on the like some shoes. I think I posted that not too long ago. Oh, photoshopped him out? No, that logo like Like a Jordan. Yeah. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, there's a lot of guys that make custom sneakers. They should make you a pair of those. Why not? Yeah, why not? I don't wear shoes that often. So, how often do you

89:31uh you're still training with guys? You still work work out with guys? to. I'm getting chubby, so I need to start working out. Yeah, well, I don't drink that much beer, but uh you know, I'll have just food. Yeah, I just everything. I like to cook. I'm pretty good at it. So, I just need to start working out a little more. I'm not too bad, but for not doing [ __ ] I mean, I might have might have worked out once in the last 6 months. Oh, really? Yeah, no, that's not good. Oh, no. The least I've ever worked out in my whole life. Just I don't know. Maybe having to do it for so long. Well, that does happen to a lot of fighters. You know, they get fat after they're done fighting. They're just like, "Fuck all the weight cutting, all the bullshit." You just get so tired of it. You just want to enjoy your life now. Right. And I don't know. I

90:17I just just I don't know. Maybe I'm just got lazy or something. I It's not about I don't know why I don't a good I'm at my gym almost every day and coach, you know, I coach and stuff, but I feel like I'm still capable of doing a lot of things. The last time I have worked out, you know, it it always goes well. Are you thinking about just just training a little bit now? Yeah. More grappling stuff. Trying not to do the sparring part as much. Mhm. Even though I'd I'd probably get antsy want to spar just for fun, but I'm sure you would. When you were uh training, what did you do for recovery? Like were you uh like to guys today, they've got massage therapists and saunas and cold plunges and all that jazz. Did you Did you have uh like a sophisticated way to recover when you were training? Uh yeah, I would try to sauna, you know, and and I do get

91:11I I would get during training camp a massage probably twice a week. For And they were about 3 hours long each time. You remember my my masseuse Mariah? I do remember her because she told me that working with you was like working with wood. She said you were so dense. She said she never massaged anybody who was so dense. She said it was crazy. Yeah. So, yeah, so I She actually owns a a business that's in my building where my gym is. It's called the lab, but they do like like uh IV therapy and Oh, that's great. and hormone replacement also and and peptides and all sorts of different so Are you doing all that stuff? Uh I do some peptides and I do uh yeah, I still I do the hormone replacement as well. I work with another company like an online one, too. Blokes. It's pretty good for it's virtual, so it's super easy to for me to I just I don't even have to go

92:09anywhere and just do it all myself. But they got some pretty good peptides. guys are doing that now. Cuz you know, peptides are a thing that That was one of the sticking points with USADA. They were stopping guys from using BBC 157. And they they allowed it for a while and then they stopped using it. Like, come on, guys. All this is doing is helping people recover. That's all it's doing. It's helping people recover from injuries. Right. It for injuries, not necessarily injuries. Yeah. They got a new one that's pretty good, too. I forgot what it's called. Something 5,000 or something. Mhm. I forgot what it's called, but yeah, it's it's for injuries as well. But you but you know, the FDA is trying to stop people from taking that. We Which doesn't make any [ __ ] sense. Yeah. But they're not stopping people from taking opiates. Right. It's nuts.

92:57So, yeah, she she's doing doing that. But yeah, I would do massage therapy for recovery and sometimes uh sometimes an ice bath. Um I I things down. Depends on what I'm what's hurting, but and supplements and eating good during training camp. But no stretching. Uh I would get stretched at like after the massages. I just couldn't imagine how inflexible you are and how powerful you were. Like it was just it was just nuts to see you moving around try to touch your toes. I feel like because I'm not very flexible, it kept me from getting in in bad submission positions sometimes. Interesting. Well, you know, you They couldn't move you. I've heard guys say that that being inflexible gives them more power. I'm like, I don't know if that's true. Well, I don't know. I mean, when I was a high school kid, I was pretty flexible. I just slowly over time I just

93:58petrified, I guess. I don't know. Well, you got dense. You know. My dad was the same way. Just the same body type. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's just genetics, you think? Yeah, for sure. My sister's that way, too. Do you ever wonder like what it would have been like if you started today? Like how much further you would have progressed? I would have probably made more money. A lot more money, but What's the most you ever made in a in one fight? Um Well, the most I've ever should have made in one fight would have been when I fought Bisping cuz I I would had pay-per-view in my deal. They The second Bisping fight? No, the first one. one. The first one. And I when we coached on Ultimate Fighter, we were going to be main or co-main. I think I think uh GSP fought that night and then uh Frank Mir and and and Brock Lesnar were supposed to fight at a different event and somebody got

94:57hurt. They pushed him to that event. So, Dana bumped me down to the third spot and promoted it still as a co-main, but didn't pay me pay-per-view. Oh. And I'm like, So, it would have been like 3 or 3 and 1/2 million for that one. What it wanted to be? Just pay-per-view. Uh couple like 300 grand. Oh, [ __ ] But the most I've ever made, I think is probably around a million. Do you remember what fight that was? Well, there was a whole contract of that. Like six fights, I think. Oh, I see. Yeah. Plus certain pay-per-views if depending on the event. That one's got to suck. That one's got to sting. The 3 million one. Yeah, and and you know, you know, you always hear stories, not me, but about Dana, you know, giving a bonus or whatever, you know, I never saw that, so. You never got one of those locker room bonuses? No. Well, I mean,

96:01knockout of the night I got, but Yeah, but not one of the big ones. Yeah. That sucks. So, I mean, I didn't take it personal, but I did go to Strikeforce right after that. Yeah. Did you What did you think about Strikeforce? Strikeforce had some great fights. Yeah, I thought they I mean, I love Scott Coker. He's Well, I mean, he just has the fighters in mind all the time also, not just not just the the bank account. So, yeah, I feel like Strikeforce had some great fighters. They they you know, they had certain things that UFC definitely did better. You know, they were a little more organized with certain things, but overall, it was Strikeforce was was I like I like them quite a bit. Well, it was definitely nice having another major organization. Yeah. You know, there was EliteXC that lasted a little while. Remember that? Yeah. Kimbo Slice was their big guy.

97:00That was pretty fun. I think that was on CBS, right? Wasn't it? Um I think it was. I know Strikeforce had uh a CBS show. And then the deal I fought on that card against Jake Shields. And then the Diaz brothers got in a fight with Mayhem. Oh, that's right. That's right. I'm like, "Dude, this is not good." And then the announcer said, "Sometimes these things happen in MMA." Like we're like, "What?" It's only time it's never happened. happened. Yeah. It almost happened with Johnny Walker this past weekend. Yeah. That was a weird one, wasn't it? That was the weirdest one. That one didn't make any sense at all. They asked him where he was and apparently said, "I'm in the desert." Yeah, which is a good answer. He's in the desert. He's kind of a funny guy, you know, he he's kind of eccentric. He's eccentric. You you ask him a question. He seemed fine.

97:55He seemed fine. You know, they asked him where he was. I'm I'm in the desert. Okay. Do you know what country? But he also looked confused when when he's standing there looking at the guy like Yeah. and not saying anything. So, I but I it was hard to hear what what was going on. Also, he doesn't speak English as a first language. Yeah. So, there's that, too. Right. You know. No, I I thought the stoppage was ridiculous. Yeah. Well, that's one of those ones where I really I think like why when a referee calls it off like that, why can't you they restart it? Yeah. Yeah, I don't understand that, either. They They did it uh I think Randy might have fought on the card. It was a UFC in Japan. Sakuraba, I think. And Conan. Yeah. And he wouldn't leave and they had then they restarted the fight. Yeah. No, they they fought again. They fought

98:49again another time. No, they kept they started the fight again that night. Did they? I'm almost positive. I think they fought again that night. I don't think they fought again immediately. I think it was I was there. Oh, interesting. Why do I Why do I have it in my head Cuz he he hit him with saying the same night? Yeah, the same night. Maybe they did that. That's what I think they did. Cuz Conan hit him with an uppercut and Sakuraba dropped down for a low angle. Right, and they stopped tried to say it was a stoppage. Well, that Do you remember Matt Lindland and Bustamante? Yeah. That was a crazy that one, too. Yeah. Even though he did tap. He did Matt Lindland got caught in an armbar, tapped. He said, "I didn't tap." I might have been in the corner. I don't remember. You might have been. And then he they started and then they went a

99:46whole 'nother round and then the round after that he caught him in a guillotine. So, Bustamante tapped him twice. Yeah. That was nuts. But that was you know, I mean I would like them to look at replays and say, "Oh, that's a tap." And that makes sense. But in that case of the one this weekend with Ankalaev and started up again. They're both fine. Everybody wants to see the fight. What's the formality? Like, what's the point? There was Yeah, and It don't make any sense. Because he didn't understand what I asked him. To It's also like, check his eyes. Like, also, when someone gets hit with an illegal shot, don't they have a certain amount of time to recover? Like, why Yeah, so why is the doctor in there immediately anyway? And and I didn't They called it a no contest, but it was questionable if because it was kind of a It was definitely illegal. Right.

100:39Which means Disqualification. Which means disqualification, but he called it an unintentional, but But he intended Yeah, so I didn't understand that. Yeah. So, but yeah, I don't know if if maybe and I don't know Johnny Walker, but I don't I did I didn't know if he was kind of playing it off like I'm going to get the win if I don't. Mhm. Interesting. That's why he looked like he was confused at the question. That was That was curious to me as to why he was just, you know, looking at him. Well, I don't know how well the doctor spoke English, either. I Was the doctor an English language speaking guy? And I don't know. Johnny isn't. Johnny can speak a little bit of English, but when I've interviewed him he's, you know, he speaks Portuguese. So, when you you talk to him in English, he has to really pay attention. And something wrong with that answer. In

101:34the desert, it's true. Where are you? I'm in the desert. He's in the desert. He's telling the truth. It's not like he said, "I'm in Hawaii." Right. Maybe you stop the fight then. The [ __ ] guy thinks he's in Hawaii. But he said, "I'm in the desert." Yeah. Weird. Yeah, that was That was kind of a weird I And I was wondering, why can't they just restart it? Yeah. It's uh it's it's a bummer. But, you know, do you enjoy watching fights these days still? Yeah, but it's not I mean, I don't pay attention to what's coming up that much. So, you know, if if if I kind of see it that day and I'm not doing anything, I'll definitely watch it. But if, you know, it's rare that I'm looking forward to certain fights. I I do I am going to go to New York for for the Stipe-Jon Jones fight. Oh, are you? Yeah. Yeah. That should be exciting. Yeah. What do you think about

102:27that fight? Uh well, I think I said this like when Stipe was champ way back when that, you know, I think Jon Jones would be a lot or he would be a lot tougher fight than for Jon Jones than than some of the big hard-hitting guys that can't wrestle very well. Mhm. Cuz Stipe can wrestle. Yeah. Probably not as well as Jon Jones. So, it's going to be I think it's interesting. I I think it's a tough one to call. Stipe has more power than Jones. He's not as um I don't know what the right word is, but he's not as goofy. He He doesn't do odd things. He's more He's more straight basics. Basics, but good at them. So, I think I think Jones being a little bit more goofy and and doing things that are a little bit different helps him a lot. Mhm. Yeah, he's very unpredictable. He always comes in with a pretty good game plan and you know, sometimes when I think he

103:29should be shooting the whole time, he he doesn't and, you know, Yeah. But I think I think I think he could do well against Stipe as well. Just, you know, he's just got to use that length. Yeah, I'm interested to see what happens, also, because Stipe's had a lot of time to recover. You know, it's been a a long time What was wrong with him? Well, the knockout to Francis. It was a pretty rough knockout. Right. And, you know, have a good solid 2 years off, have a lot of time to train. He wanted to put more weight on cuz he felt like he was a little too light in the Francis fight. Yeah. I'm interested to see him, you know, fully healthy. Like, how much he's got left in the tank. Cuz if you go back to the Stipe that knocked out Fabricio Werdum, the Stipe that knocked out Junior dos Santos, Stipe was a bad [ __ ] man. Right. No, I agree.

104:16Yeah, I think a lot of people are looking past him in this fight. Yeah, and I I don't think Jon Jones is the same as he was uh before he tested positive like for the third time on things. I You know, maybe he's really not doing anything nowadays and he's just I don't feel like he his body is the same. Well, he's heavyweight now, but I mean, before he went to heavyweight, he just looked softer. He didn't look as good good of cardio. Wasn't as I don't know. He just didn't fight the same as he did back when, you know, he was kind of possibly when he was testing positive, I should say. Mhm. Interesting. So, I always felt like Jon Jones wasn't challenged. And that when Jon was when he had defend the title a bunch of times, first of all, he's partying a lot, right? He wasn't necessarily training that hard. You know, like he he basically said the

105:11for the Gustafsson fight, which is one of his toughest fights, he didn't even train. He barely showed up. He just kind of like just thought, "No way this guy's going to beat me. I'm going to go [ __ ] him up." And Gustafsson came in real prepared. And Jon had to dig deep. And most impressive thing about that is he pulled that fight out in the later rounds Yeah, but yeah, I So, I don't know. I just feel like he doesn't look what how he used to. Well, he definitely doesn't at heavyweight. What? I When I say look, I don't mean You mean Oh, you A little bit physically, but when he was at 205, he still looked a little soft his last couple times there Mhm. compared to what he used to look like. And you think that might have been from stuff? Yeah. Could be. I definitely uh Picograms. Yeah, the I mean, but he had tested positive before, so it's not like Yeah.

106:09And that's crazy how they just would have even during USADA, they just slapped him on the wrist. Yeah, I I never understood that. I don't know what the thought of that was. I don't know what the explanation for that was. I can't really remember, but it was I think that they thought that that was a tainted supplement, which does happen. Well, what's-his-face uh sued a company for tainted substances and got a ton of money. Uh the other Cuban, I think he's Cuban. Not Hector Lombard, but uh Oh, Yoel Romero. That's right, he did. Yeah. That's right, he did. I think Tim Means um popped accidentally, too, from a tainted supplement. Tim doesn't look like he does anything. Right. You know, he looks totally natural. The early days when you were fighting, you kind of must have assumed that everybody was on something. Yeah, but nothing you could do about it and

107:03didn't matter. I'm going to beat them anyway. That was my attitude. Yeah. And you did. For the most part, most of the time. Tried to. Yeah. When you look back, I mean, you had a [ __ ] amazing career, man. Amazing career as a wrestler and then amazing career as an MMA fighter. I mean, it's got to feel good. You You lived a lived a great life. No, for sure. And and you know, the book that I got coming out, it made me made me remember a lot of things, you know, not that I forgot, but it just brings a lot more things fresher in your mind Yeah. and kind of re I don't It's not like I sit around and reflect about what I've done in my life, you know, I just keep moving forward. But that book kind of made me do that and and you know, it was it was kind of fun to kind of look at my life in that way. For sure. And and I'm sure it brought back back a ton of memories.

108:02Yeah. And it's funny when we were writing it, Yeah, after I'd read read it after, you know, it was kind of written down there, I was like, you know, I forgot about this story or that story or that, you know, kind of goes with that. So, I we had to kind of add a bunch of [ __ ] Oh, yeah. It made it a little tougher cuz Yeah, I feel like I've forgotten more things than I remember these days, but you never know. Uh but yeah. Did you do an audio version of it? Uh no. But I I was like, "Oh, it'd be cool to actually read it myself in in the audio thing with my voice." And and they wanted me to send a sample of that. I did like a 5-minute I read I played it back to myself. I'm like, "Oh my god. There's no way." So, I sent it to them saying, "Yeah, we might want to think about a professional for this one for doing this. I know you can edit it, but

108:59yeah, it's not good." Then my wife got home from work and I had her listen to it and we just couldn't stop laughing. It was bad. I mean, I'm not the best reader, I guess. Well, it's tough to do. It's There's a There's a real skill to reading audio books. Right. And trying to put the the emotion part in into the what it's supposed to be. Like if you're telling a story. So, yeah. No. There will be an audio version, but it won't be my voice. So, I think acting is out of the question for you. Acting? Uh I don't know. I mean, I could do certain things, but I don't know if I'd I really don't want to act like that much. Randy's done it amazing. Yeah. No, I little bit like action movies I'd probably be okay at for sure, but but some of these other TV drama type [ __ ] there's no way. Right. I mean, I just I I probably couldn't do it with a straight face. They do

110:01after this we kind of did this book and and there's some producers like like Barry Josephson like wants to do a bio pic on me now. Oh, that's awesome. And yeah. And And my question to that was And question to you, how do you put your life in a 2-hour show? Yeah, how do you do that without them doctoring it, too? Like what they did with Mark Schultz in Foxcatcher. Yeah. Yeah, that that's hard because they're going to want to tie it up in a nice ribbon. Right. So, I mean, now they're talking about, you know, a limited series instead type of thing. Oh, that'll be interesting. Like a Netflix type deal? Yeah. Yeah, that probably be better. Yeah, if they did a your whole life in a 2-hour movie do they chop out? I mean, Right. Right. Right, what do they chop out? Yeah. Yeah. What would you What would you be in your movie if it was only 2 hours?

110:56How the [ __ ] can you do it? Right. Yeah. It'll just be a [ __ ] version of your life. Right. Just to make a movie. Yeah. Who's going to Who'd play you? Uh I think they have a couple guys in mind, but I Yeah, nobody that looks really like me exactly, but Do you have anybody that can move right, though? You know what I'm saying? Walk like a caveman? Well, also punch and and throw, you know, and have good takedowns. Yeah, the one guy that that is a possibility, I think he trains sometimes at Boss's place. Oh, that's good. Um Yeah, you'd have to have You can't have just an actor that doesn't actually know how to fight. Right. It would look terrible. Yeah. And And I think whoever they do pick should probably come up to my gym for a couple months and 100%. Yeah. Yeah, you get to beat up on them a Maybe that'll motivate you to get back

111:53into gym. Yeah. Yeah. I'll just have him get in shape for me. Yeah. Well, let me know when that comes out cuz I'll definitely want to hear it and we'll tell everybody about it. Yeah. Yeah, so I wanted to you to have the book a little bit ahead of time, but I You got to I think I showed you the the cover your quote You got a quote on the back of it. I can't read without my glasses. Dan Henderson Here. Well, I got glasses. I think they just took guys one of your commenting uh Yeah. Here it is. Oh. Dan Henderson is a savage, came from a pure wrestling background, very little striking training, and he went and became one of the most dangerous one-punch knockout artists in the history of the sport. Facts. Facts. It's available now. You can get it the audio book. You get a Well, for one credit. Um it's on Kindle. It's on hard cover. Available right now.

112:53Hendo, the American Athlete. You know, uh where the the I I was trying to figure out what to name it, and when I was in Japan, I always had I had like all sorts of different nicknames, and they would just call me Dan, but the media over there called me the American Athlete. Ah. So, that's why I kind of came up with that. It's a good one. Yeah. I didn't know You know, I didn't know what to say. Perfect. Hendo, the American Athlete. Perfect. Perfect. Listen, Dan, uh it's a pleasure talking to you. You've had a [ __ ] amazing career. You're a real legend. I know you don't like the term pioneer, but I'm all right with it. You're a [ __ ] pioneer in the sport. that is the guys that look as old as me or they got a big beard. They They look like they're 40 or 50 years old. They come up to me and say, "I've been watching since I was a kid." Yeah.

113:50So, yeah, it goes with the same feeling when I hear the word pioneer, but I it's fine. I mean, I I I do enjoy the fact that I was a pioneer in the sport. You definitely were. If there's a better word, let me know and I'll I'll start using that one. But thanks, brother. Appreciate it very much. No worries. I appreciate you having me. Yeah. And it's a book's available right now, folks. Go out and get it. Support a legend. Right there. All right. Thanks,