喜剧与创造力的科学与艺术 | Tom Segura

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Welcome to the Huberman Lab 播客, where 我们 discuss science 和 science based tools 对于 everyday life.

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I'm Andrew Huberman, 和 I'm a professor of 神经生物学 和 ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Tom Segura. Tom Segura is a renowned comedian, writer, 和 director. 期间 today's episode, 我们 explore the neuroscience 和 psychology behind comedy, 和 我们 explore the creative process 更多 generally.

Tom shares his approach to capturing 和 developing ideas 进入 narratives 那 are at once funny 和 thought provoking. 我们 discuss the interplay between daily-life observations 和 larger cultural dynamics when developing comedy routines. 我们 spend a fair bit of time discussing the neurobiological basis of humor, 和 what 数据 和 大脑 lesion patients have taught us 关于 why 我们 find certain ideas novel, funny, 或 exciting. 我们 also talk 关于 how 这 relates to the activation of reward 回路 in the 大脑, 和 the seemingly automatic way 那 things are either funny 或 not funny to 人们, suggesting 那 humor is like taste 或 smell.

你 确实 可以't negotiate what works 对于 你 或 what doesn't. 我们 also discuss emotional contagion 和 how skilled performers like Tom become masters at reading, shifting, 和 dancing 与 the collective 能量 of crowds, whether in small comedy clubs 或 large arena shows.

So if 你're a creative 或 你're curious 关于 human psychology, 或 if 你 simply love to laugh, 你'll come away 从 today's episode having learned a ton of useful information 关于 the creative process 和 human nature.

之前 我们 begin, I'd like to emphasize 那 这 podcast is separate 从 my teaching 和 研究 roles at Stanford. It is, 然而, part of my desire 和 effort to bring zero cost to consumer information 关于 science 和 science-related tools to the general public. In keeping 与 那 theme, 这 episode does include sponsors.

和 now 对于 my discussion 与 Tom Segura.

Tom Segura, welcome.

TOM SEGURA: Thanks 对于 having me, cuz.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 我们'll let 人们 know who don't already know. Yes, 我们 are related.

TOM SEGURA: Yes, 我们 are related. 人们 have asked me so many times the details, 和 I was trying to-- 因为 I learned 关于 it obviously later 那 it was like my mom's great grandmother 和 你的 father's great grandmother were 首先 cousins-- they're both Basque. So Northern Spain cousins.

和 then generations later, they moved to South America, yours to Argentina, mine to Peru. 和 那's how 我们're cousins. Yeah, I guess distant cousins--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 和 my dad was on the podcast a little while ago.

TOM SEGURA: How did 那 go? 因为 I remember 我们 talked 关于 him coming on.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: It was great. I mean, he's a theoretical physicist by 训练. So 我们 got to talk 关于 physics, 但 我们 also got to talk 关于 life. 和 I learned a lot 从 him.

TOM SEGURA: Did 你?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I learned a lot 关于 him 那 I--

TOM SEGURA: In 那 podcast?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah.

TOM SEGURA: 确实?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah. I'll send it to 你 if 你're ever suffering 从 insomnia.

TOM SEGURA: I 会 love to listen to it. He's a theoretical-- I didn't even know 那.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, theorist chaos theory. 和 now he's 进入 quantum internet.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah, it's crazy. Where does he reside now?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Northern California. Still working.

TOM SEGURA: Wow.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah. 81 still working.

TOM SEGURA: Look at 我们的 不同的 sides of the year. 你的 dad is a theoretical physicist, 和 my mom plays bridge.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, 但 你-- 但 你 可以 make a half-court shot. I saw the clip of 你 in lethal shooter. 我们'll put-- 我们'll put a link to it.

TOM SEGURA: OK. Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I mean, 你're an excellent basketball player. I'm not--

TOM SEGURA: High 水平. So 非常 high 水平. Did 你 play ball growing up at all?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: No.

TOM SEGURA: 你 skateboarded?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Foot sports. Soccer, skateboarding. I'm pretty coordinated 与 my feet.

TOM SEGURA: Well, the kid of an Argentine. 你 got to give it a shot. Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Every kid where I grew up played soccer.

TOM SEGURA: 确实?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Obsessed.

TOM SEGURA: Were 你 good at soccer?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I was all right. Played goalie. I like playing goalie 或 fullback. I like to wait back there 和 just-- then just kick 人们. 那 was fun.

TOM SEGURA: Maybe 你 应该 get 进入 lacrosse 或 something.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: No, I like running. I ran cross country in my senior year.

TOM SEGURA: 你 ran cross country?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I did, yeah. I was a little lighter than I am now. I'm like 210 now. It's probably 160, 170.

TOM SEGURA: OK.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah. Like 二-mile races were OK.

TOM SEGURA: I just did 5K.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh, yeah?

TOM SEGURA: 二 天 ago. Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: How'd 那 go?

TOM SEGURA: I hated 那, I knew I had to do it, 和 so I just made myself-- I was like, 你 got to do it, so it's going to suck.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 你 trained 对于 it?

TOM SEGURA: Well, the 训练 对于 me is like, just get in a bunch of 三-mile runs, right? So, I mean, I 会 do them purposely at a slow pace, try to stay as close to zone 2 cardio as 可能, just to get used to the mileage. 和 then 我们 get there 因为 it was 我们的 5K like it was-- I put it on 与 Bert 和 Spartan race 和 it was a--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Did 5K? Shirt off, the whole thing.

TOM SEGURA: Of course. What are 你? Crazy.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Wait vest, wait belly.

TOM SEGURA: I mean sorry, bro. Dude, yeah. He was--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 我们 give him a hard time 因为 我们're still trying to get Bert to quit drinking 或 减少 his drinking. I think he's reduced his drinking a little bit. No, OK.

TOM SEGURA: So, yeah, 我们 did-- 我们 did 一 last year in Pasadena. 我们 did the Rose Bowl. 和 so 这 time 我们 did Raymond James in Tampa. 和 it was just the 2 Bears 5K. 我们 had 更多 than 三 times 人们 sign up 这 year 对于 Tampa. So 我们 had close to 8,000 人们 there.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Wow.

TOM SEGURA: 和 Jelly Roll came out, Jason Kelce, Tristan Wirfs, a bunch of Jon Feliciano, like all 这些 football players 和--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Fun.

TOM SEGURA: 和 it was a 非常 fun 天, a 非常 fun event. 但 here's the thing. Like at the Rose Bowl, the path was basically 通过 the parking lot 和 then on 这些 side roads in Pasadena 和 they loop it out 和 then 你 cross back basically across 这 parking lot 和 你 hit the 3.1.

At Raymond James-- I didn't know. They were like, oh, there's some inclines. I'm like, yeah, all right. Did 我们 get there? It's all in the stadium. 和 the only way 你're running 3.1 miles in a stadium is 我们're running 通过 the corridors 和 then up the ramp. Well, the ramp is nine stories up. I mean, 你're literally--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 一 long incline.

TOM SEGURA: Bro, so, like, 你're doing like a quarter mile up 和 then it 会 flatten out, then 你 go down. 你're like, oh, 这 is nice. 和 then 你 go up again. 但 I was just-- I think when 你're also running 与 人们, 你 get tunnel vision.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah.

TOM SEGURA: 和 你 see somebody, 你're like, 那 person's ahead of me. Like, 这 pig is in front of me right now.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Are 你 competitive by nature?

TOM SEGURA: Yeah, I think so. 和 so I 会-- like, I definitely was like I have to beat Bert. I have to beat--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 你 have to beat Bert.

TOM SEGURA: Jon 和 my friend Feliciano, I was like, I have to beat 这些 guys. They're both like fucking 300 pounds. I'm definitely beating them. 和 so 那 was just like in my head every time I 会 see-- think of them, I was just have to keep going.

和 then Bert got beat by a guy in a wheelchair. So 那 was also sweet 因为 I beat both of them. Jerry, what's up. Shout out to Jerry. I think he had a little advantage 因为 那些 wheels on the way down definitely pick up some speed, 但 on the way up, it's pretty badass.

但 yeah. So like, getting in 那些 miles was just-- the 训练 对于 it. 和 it was a whole thing. 和 I don't like running. There's some things 你 like if 你 were like, let's go work out, let's go live-- I'd be like, cool, I enjoy 那. I don't enjoy running, 但 I guess 那's--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: The best.

TOM SEGURA: 你 like running?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I love working out 与 weights. I've been doing 那 since I was 16, 但 I love running. I love--

TOM SEGURA: 你 love running?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I'm running 三 times a 周, a long run, a medium run 和 a short run.

TOM SEGURA: What's a long run?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: An 小时, 小时 和 a half long 和 slow every Sunday. 和 then in the middle of the 周, a 30-分钟 run faster. 和 then 一 天 a 周, I do 那 max 心率 VO2 thing, where I warm up, sprint, walk, sprint walk, sprint walk sometimes on the Airdyne bike, 但 usually running.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I love running. In fact, I mostly lift so 那 my 身体 doesn't hurt when I run. I like being strong.

TOM SEGURA: Have 你 总是 been 进入 这?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, since I was 关于 16, I started running. I just found I could just go 和 go. Probably have a lot of slow twitch 肌肉, 和 I'm reasonably strong. 但, I mean, if I train just 对于 耐力, if I start doing 二 long runs per 周, I just feel like I 可以 just go forever.

TOM SEGURA: 确实?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah. It's probably just a genetic--

TOM SEGURA: What do 你 cover in 那 60 to 90-分钟 run?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Depends on how in condition I am. 但 你 were talking 关于 hills. When I lived in the Bay Area, I used to do 这 run behind the Berkeley campus, the Strawberry Canyon trail. 和 那's all--

TOM SEGURA: Incline--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Basically winding up, winding up until 你 take the long cruise down. I 会 do 那 与 a weight vest. If I go 从 there out to Austin 和 on a Sunday, 和 then I 可以 cover a lot of distance in a 60-分钟 run. 但 if I just train on the flat, then 你 get used to just of going long 和 slow.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: So I don't know the exact distance, 但 it was not unusual when I was in graduate school to head out on a Sunday 早晨, just hydrated caffeine 和 do 10, 12 miles.

TOM SEGURA: Wow.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 但 now it's probably 更多 like 6, 8.

TOM SEGURA: OK.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 6 to 8.

TOM SEGURA: 但 also 与 a weighted vest?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Sometimes 与 a-- I use a vest. They're not a sponsor, which is fun to 总是 mention things 那 aren't a sponsor too, 因为 I love 这 weight vest. It's called OMORPHO, 和 it fits pretty snug. It's not like 一 of 这些 ones 那 looks like 你're a suicide bomber 或 a cop 或 something.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: It sits 确实 close to the 身体. It zips up. 和 it's got 这些 heavy ball bearings in it. So it's only 关于 10 to 12 pounds.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: So it's not like a super heavy weight vest. 但 it's enough 那 when 你 take 那 weight vest off on a-- run, 你 feel like a God.

TOM SEGURA: I 会 say 那 as much as I say I hate running, the fact 那 I made myself keep doing-- I was doing daily runs, almost like five 天 a 周, just of getting used to the mileage, obviously, it becomes easier. 和 then 你 go like, OK, I 可以 do 这.

但 yeah, I think I get a lot of mental anxiety 关于 the running.

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What 关于 the running itself? I was going to ask 你 whether 或 not it changes 你的 mental frame so 那 你-- I don't know. Does it-- do 你 get ideas while 你 Run Do 你 get ideas 之后 你 run 更多 readily, 或 are 你 just cursing the thing the whole time?

TOM SEGURA: I feel like it's a goal to let my 心智 drift, 因为 sometimes the negative side of it is like 你're doing a run 和 你的 心智 is like, 这 sucks, right. 和 你're thinking 关于 how much time is left, 和 那 doesn't produce anything, 和 it's not an enjoyable thing.

但 if the 心智 goes, if 你 可以 let 你的 心智 drift, it's 更少 关于 ideas. I feel like in 那些 moments 你're just-- 你're off thinking 关于 更多 life, not like creative thoughts, 更多 like 人们 和 relationships 和 不同的 things. 和 like, 那's a nice place to be 因为 then all of a sudden 你're like, oh, a couple miles just went by.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, there's something to be said 对于 这些 states of wordlessness, where 你're not constructing things in complete sentences. There's no sensory input like 通过 a phone 或 通过 even-- I do listen to podcasts 或 books when I run sometimes the long run. 但 there's 这 idea 那 a lot of learning 和 creativity is 关于 purging all the noise. 和 I find 那 那些 long runs, they just come out of them just feeling like a bunch of clutter, just got cleared 更多 than I had some insight 期间 the run itself.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Incidentally, 90% of the effect of 运动 on improving 大脑 function when it comes to long, slow distance work is 那 it raises 你的 水平 of alertness 和 arousal. So 你 可以 do 确实 great work afterwards.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: High-intensity stuff has a bunch of other effects, 大脑-derived neurotrophic factor, et cetera. 但 when 你 see 运动 改善 大脑 function, 运动 makes 你 smarter. Most of 那 is by way of the way how 运动 增加 你的 水平 of alertness 和 puts 你 in 那 nice state like, oh, now I 可以 sit down 和 专注.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah, my busiest 天 is-- sometimes I have a 非常 busy 天. If I start 那 天 与 a hard workout, I end up having no problem tackling 那 天.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Isn't 那 wild?

TOM SEGURA: It is wild 因为 sometimes, I'll have a 天 where I have to arrive at my studio, let's say, at 10:00 AM 对于 something. 和 it's just like it's going to be recordings, meetings, pitch meetings, 和 then leave here, go to 这 thing. It's going to be the entire 天. 和 if I get myself to the gym 和 I get in a good 小时 lift, I come in 和 I'll notice everyone's like, 你 look like 你're in a good 情绪. 和 I'm like, yeah, I feel great, 和 I'm ready. 和 then I'm ready 对于 the 天.

但 if I don't do 那, it's a 不同的 experience.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, 这 is 一 of the real hidden secrets of 运动 那 I'm trying to make 更少 hidden 和 更少 of a secret 那 Jocko clearly understands 与 his 4:30 AM wake ups 和 workouts 那 你're describing now is 那-- won't go 进入 too much detail here 因为 I want to ask 你 questions.

但 there's 这 phenomenon where when 你 move the large musculature of the 身体, so a resistance 训练 workout, a run, probably any workout where 你're doing some big movements 或 你're working hard in 那 workout, it triggers the 释放 of 肾上腺素 at 水平 那 wake up 你的 身体, make it 更多 willing to move.

TOM SEGURA: Yes.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: So 人们 who don't have 能量 to 运动-- 运动 gives 你的 身体 能量 by way of 肾上腺素. 和 then 那 肾上腺素 acts on 这 nerve called the vagus nerve, which communicates to the areas of 你的 大脑 那 释放 多巴胺 和 something called 去甲肾上腺素. It basically wakes 你的 大脑 up also.

So 那 早晨 workout 那 你're describing, wakes up 你的 大脑和身体 对于 something like six 小时 by changing the neurochemical state of 你的 身体 和 你的 大脑. 和 so it's not a surprise 那 when 你 work out 之前 a long 天, 那 long 天 goes better.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Whereas if 你 hit the work of the 天 fresh, 你're generating the 肾上腺素 drink 从 all 那 stuff. 这 is when 人们 feel a bit 更多 anxious. They feel a bit 更多 irritable, they feel a bit 更多 tired.

So 这 whole concept of 运动 gives 你 能量. 那's how it gives 你 能量. It's not caloric 能量. 你 still need to fuel, et cetera, 但 你're talking 关于 neurochemical 能量. It fundamentally changes the way 你 show up to everything else.

TOM SEGURA: The way 那 I 总是 feel like is-- a lot of times when 你 wake up, 你 have what I 会 describe as a fog. Sometimes--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh, good. It's not just me.

TOM SEGURA: Oh, yeah. So 那 fog sometimes 你 carry it. It's just in the 天 和 你're just like, oh, there's 这. 但 I 总是 feel like 那 运动 just completely wipes it out, where 你're like, oh, like, I'm actually alert now 和 I don't feel 那 post wake up, just fog 那 sits there. 那's my favorite thing to knock out.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I love 那. I've got 这 crazy thing 那 I do now. 你 可以 try 这. I bought a 70-pounds kettlebell. It's 关于 a third of my 身体 weight, 和 I have it set in the hallway. So when I get up 因为 I wake up 确实 groggy, 确实 foggy, I grab 那 thing 和 I suitcase-- carry it to the end 和 back twice, 和 then I switch hands 和 I suitcase, carry it back to the-- end 和 back twice. Just trying to teach my 身体 那 it 可以 do work right away.

和 I'm careful how I do it, 但 I find 那 now I wake up 和 I've got-- I think my 身体 is anticipating 那 carry. 和 so I'm 更多 alert 从 go. 和 I was like, oh, there's something-- 因为 你的 神经系统 learns to anticipate things.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: It's 那 phenomenon of setting 你的 alarm clock 对于 7 AM, 你 wake up at 6:59.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: What happened like 你的 大脑 is clocking things in--

TOM SEGURA: To me so many times, 和 I 总是 feel like 那's such a bizarre-- also, I'm not a big napper. Sometimes I'll be like, I'm going to lay down-- I have an 小时 window 之前 I have to go do something in a hotel, I'm on the road 和 I'll be like, well, just in case I fall asleep, I'll set the alarm 和 I'll lay there, eyes closed 和 a look as it's 一 分钟 之前--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 和 你的 大脑's clocking it. There was a 研究 a couple of years ago, where when 人们 are in rapid eye movement sleep, 你're basically paralyzed. The 大脑 is 非常, 非常 active. 那's the phenomenon of rapid eye movement sleep. It's 非常 bizarre 大脑 state.

大脑 is super active, 身体 paralyzed. 但 人们 可以 blink 和 they 可以 show some little like facial responses. If 你 ask them to do simple math problems 期间 rapid eye movement sleep, 你 say, hey, what's 2 plus 2. They'll blink 与 你的-- wink 与 你的 right eye if it's four, wink 与 你的 other eye if it's five. 人们 可以 do math correctly in their sleep.

They 可以 answer not sophisticated questions, 但 the 大脑 is tracking what's happening all 大约 你. 这 is why taking the phone 和 putting it outside the room while 你 sleep, 人们 sleep better. 人们 say, oh, it's 因为 of the EMFs, nobody 确实 knows 对于 sure, 但 it's 因为 你的 大脑 is anticipating picking up the phone even while 你're sleeping.

TOM SEGURA: Wow.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: So there's-- I'm hitting 与 a lot of 数据 here, 但 it's well known now 那 if 你 give students a test 和 their phone is in their bag in the room, they perform 更少 well than if their phone is in their bag in another room.

TOM SEGURA: Seriously?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 这 is true 对于 adults, too. 你的 大脑 is tracking potential movements, potential thoughts, potential actions, like the way 大脑 回路 work is to create dominoes of 回路 sequences. So when 你're up-- 对于 instance, 你've gone on stage so many times to do comedy.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: As 你 walk out, 你的 大脑 is cueing up a whole library of things related to 那 没有 你 realizing it.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah, yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: It's all context dependent behavior. 和 when 你 get home, it's a 不同的 set of context dependent behaviors.

So 你的 大脑 is like a magic library. I 总是 think of 这 as 你 get to a particular idea 或 thought 或 emotional state, the books change right in front of 你 to match the set of things 那 你 expect. So if 你的 phone is in the room, 你的 大脑 is operating 那 way, even if 你're asleep.

TOM SEGURA: 那's insane.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, what's 你的 writing process. Let's talk 关于 comedy. I've got 关于 a gazillion questions. I'm going to try 和 make them 确实 succinct. What is 你的 typical process of capturing-- 你 call them bits?

TOM SEGURA: Yeah, 对于 stand up it's a bit. Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: What's 你的 typical process of capturing ideas? Do 你 voice memo 进入 the phone? Do 你 write things down?

TOM SEGURA: I've done pretty much every version of it; voice notes while high. Sometimes 你 listen to them later 和 你're like, holy shit.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Are 你 a cannabis user?

TOM SEGURA: I mean, sometimes. I'm not like a heavy user, 但 a lot of times at 夜间 if 你 take something 和 你 go to sleep-- 你're trying to go to sleep, 你的 大脑's like, nah, I got ideas.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Is 那 right?

TOM SEGURA: Oh, yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I haven't done cannabis in a long time ago.

TOM SEGURA: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 和 then sometimes 你 listen-- 因为 你're convinced 你're like, 这 is 一 of the most brilliant ideas.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Have 你 ever had great ideas 那 stick?

TOM SEGURA: Yeah, I've had-- I've had-- I've had good ones 那 stick. Sometimes the wording is a little off. 但 yeah, I've had-- I've had ones 那 I actually do enjoy afterwards. 和 then sometimes 你're like-- 你 可以 hear yourself smiling. 因为 你 可以 tell someone's emotion by their voice. So I 可以 hear 那 I'm like, dude, then like--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh, 因为 你're recording?

TOM SEGURA: I'm recording 进入-- in my phone.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: So let me get the process. So 你're heading up to sleep 和 你 take an edible.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 这 is comedy school 101. No, I'm just kidding. Hey, listen, 你're the pro, 和 你 go to voice memos. 你're there, eyes closed, 和 你 start riffing on something.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah, it's like 你're-- it feels like it's separate 从 你. 因为 the right, I guess, dosage of THC, it does make 你的 心智 run. 和 sometimes 你 have 更少 self-awareness. It's just like, the nice way to think 关于 it is 那 你的 大脑 总是 puts things on a shelf 对于 你 to get 通过 你的 天, things 那 make 你 uncomfortable even.

There's things 那 你 go like, I don't want to think 关于 那. 和 then THC, I think in the right dosage just goes here it is. Like it puts it in front of 你.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: It sounds terrible.

TOM SEGURA: It 可以 be terrible.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: It sounds awful.

TOM SEGURA: 那 可以 be like 经常 what-- like too much is where 你 可以 get 进入 paranoia. 但 I think if 你 have a dosage 那 is not too strong, so it's not like uncomfortable, it just lets the 心智 run. It's like stream of consciousness happens.

和 so when 那's happening, I feel like 你 go, oh, 这 feels like a new thought, a new 或 a new perspective on something. 和 你 go, 这 is-- it makes 你 laugh.

So 这 is an idea, I 应该 take 这 on stage. 因为 I think 对于 me, a lot of the thing is here's the kernel of the idea 和 then it's not so much I'm going to write out long form how to do it. It's like 那's the idea, take it on stage. So--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 你 don't actually write things out full form?

TOM SEGURA: No, I don't write them out full form. 和 then I just go on stage 与 the kernel of the idea 那 I a blueprint of like, well, here's what I'm going to try to attack 和 then see what happens as I speak it.

因为 the other way 那-- like my favorite way to write comedy 对于 stand up is conversations. In other words, 我们're talking 和 I say something 和 I either go like, oh, I 应该 say 那 on stage, 或 I just find 那 I'm naturally riffing on it 和 making 你 laugh. 和 then I go, I 应该 try 那 on stage 因为 everything is like, it's either-- it's funny here. Is it funny there?

那's how 你的 心智 operates. Like, 这 is funny in 这 context. Is it funny in the performing context?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 但 when 你're trying new material, 你're not doing 那 对于 a Netflix special. 你're doing 那-- 和 it's the term working out like 你 go to the comedy club on a Tuesday 夜间 和 你're working on-- 你're trying new material, seeing how it lands.

你've 从不-- 或 is what 你're saying 那 你've 从不 actually built out the bit. 你're building it out in real time--

TOM SEGURA: In real time. Yeah, yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Whoa.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 那's typical of--

TOM SEGURA: I think there's 不同的 camps of it. Also, there's so many 不同的-- stand up is so popular 那 there's all 这些 不同的 styles 和 there's setup punch guys, like what 你 会 call almost pure joke writers; Sam Morril, Dave Attell, Mark Normand, 那些 guys I feel they do a lot of here is-- it's the economy of words. It's like clear premise setup 和 then boom, punchline.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: So it 会 be like oh-- I'm thinking 关于 Normand. I won't try 和 do 一 of his jokes, 但 I like Normand's comedy skateboarder too. Same non-biological 首先 family.

So he-- I've heard him do things like-- so my wife 和 I were on vacation recently, 这 kind of thing, like a set up where it's 非常 clear. I mean, he clearly knows where he's going 与 这.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: On vacation 和 我们're picking out rooms 和 then at some point, there's a punch line pivot. OK.

TOM SEGURA: So there's-- some of 那些 are-- 尤其是 when 你 feel like they're quite short, if it's over quickly, 那's going to a lot of times be something 那 你 knew I'm going to say it exactly like 这. It's the most traditional form of a joke. Here's the setup, here's the punch line.

和 I've written jokes like 那 in stand up, 但 I do a lot 更多, long form, I think, storytelling stuff. 和 so to write 那 all out, I feel like 你 almost get in 你的 own way 因为 你're just like 你're-- 因为 then what happens is what 你 write 和 what 你 say it's 从不 quite the same.

So 你 go 通过 what 你 think is funny 关于 what happened, 和 then 你 take 那 on stage 和 then 你 take 那 on stage in maybe in a room 与 80 或 100 人们. 和 then 那's the nice thing 关于 stand up, is 你 learn right away if 那 shit is funny 或 not. Like, 人们 are laughing hard 和 你're like-- 和 那's what's such a rush 因为 你 go, 这 was an idea. 这 thing happened. 你 try it, it works. It's like it's a 确实 euphoric feeling.

和 then if it doesn't, 那's when the, I guess, the real work of it comes in 因为 then 你're trying to figure out 你're like-- 尤其是 if 你're like married to the idea, if 你're like 这 is funny, 但 it didn't work, so then 你 start thinking 关于, did I-- is there not enough information 对于 it to work? Is 那 the problem? Is there too much? 因为 我们 总是 say trim the fat.

If 你 have too much stuff in there 那 is not getting laughs, it's maybe just omit some of 这 information. So 那 becomes OK, I'll go back 和 instead of saying 这 is like useless information, it's not adding to what's funny 或 whatever. It's not adding to the story I'm telling, 你 start dropping 那. 和 so 你 start experimenting.

和 then sometimes 你 just get 进入, OK, is the actual line 那 I'm saying the problem-- is it 那 那's not a good enough joke line? 和 then 你 start experimenting 与 那, 和 then sometimes 你 figure it out, which is again, like such an amazing feeling where 你 go, 这 used to not work 和 now it works. 和 then sometimes 你 just got to go, fuck, man, 这 just doesn't work.

你 just have to abandon it. Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: If something works 或 你 feel like it's a beginning, it's the start of a thread 那 could work. Do 你 end up writing it down 对于 later? Like, 你're queuing yourself-- the walk 与 my son bit 或 something like 那 或 it's just-- 或 it's all in 你的 head?

TOM SEGURA: Well, 你 have it all in 你的 head. 和 then-- I was going to show 你 I have 这. I'll look at 这 之前 I go on stage, which is--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Tom showing-- me 我们 可以 get a photo of 这 if he lets us. It's a bunch of Sharpie written single words.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah. Gitmo, jail, teacher, duck, Huberman-- just kidding. Augusta, kill my wife.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah, it's like. So 那些 like--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Hitler, Tunisia, make shit. 这 is amazing.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah, 那's a set list 对于 an 小时.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: If 你 think 关于 the range of things in 这 relatively short list--

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: As a partial representation of what goes on in Tom Segura's 大脑, 你 get a little--

TOM SEGURA: Well, what's interesting is 那 another way, I think, comedians 会 look at it is 你 start to go, 这些 are 15-分钟 chunks. 因为 when 你 do an 小时, a lot of comics think of it as four 15-分钟 chunks, right. So 你 go like, OK, 这 is setting the table chunk. 这 is like a kid's family chunk.

这 is commentary on social issues 或 things 那 I'm doing 或 consuming. 和 then 你的 last chunk is--s I 总是 feel like 你 want to get 进入 some of 你的 更多-- I don't know-- wilder takes 之后 the audience has gotten to know 你 和 trusts 你, they're like, OK, is 那 way-- 你 可以 push it 更多 the further 进入 the set 你 are.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah.

TOM SEGURA: So 你 just break it down.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, 非常 不同的. 但 I've done some lives 和 I have four things I'm going to cover 和 then 但 I don't know how I'm going to cover them. Jordan Peterson when he goes out 对于 his lives, I've been to them, he literally explores a topic in real time, walking back 和 forth across the stage 对于 the 首先 time. I know 这 因为 人们 verify 那 every 夜间 he does something 不同的, even the same city.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: He's exploring it completely in real time. 和 then other 人们's lives 那 I've been to it's clear it's pretty scripted. They know exactly what they're going to say 和 when. They have a sequence, they have slides.

和 so I think it 可以 be done any 不同的 number of ways. How long do 你 go 期间 你的 waking 小时 没有 making 或 thinking of a joke?

TOM SEGURA: 那's a good question. I 确实 feel like when 你 asked me 那 question, do 你 know the 首先 person 那 I think of is actually Rick Rubin? 和 这 is why. I remember reading 那 book he put out,

ANDREW HUBERMAN: "Creative Act".

TOM SEGURA: 和 he was like, there's something 关于-- I'm paraphrasing here, 但 关于 having 你的 antenna up. In other words, 你 still put out-- some part of 你 puts out the signal, so to speak, 那 你're not like, going, I need to find something funny. 但 你're putting 你的 大脑 in the mode of 那.

和 你 可以 also choose not to. 和 I think there's times where 你 go like, oh, I haven't thought of any-- I haven't looked at anything 与 a humorous perspective today 或 对于 whatever-- how many 小时. 和 it's almost like 那 可以 shift, either by 你 consciously making an effort to do it 或 by the company 你 keep.

因为, obviously, if 你're hanging out 与 comedians, it's like, just by being 大约 them, 你的 大脑 just shifts to joke mode. 你 know what I mean? 你're thinking in 那些 terms. 或 if 你're working on something-- like 你're writing a script 或 something, 你的 大脑 is actively-- even when 你're not trying to, it's thinking of 那 story 和 thinking of jokes 对于 the story.

So the answer is, depending on the 天, it 可以 be like all 天. 你're just joking, joking, joking. 和 你're just-- in my case, saying mostly awful things. 因为 那's what makes me laugh, I think. What know what I mean? Whether it's 与 friends 或 family. Just like trying to make yourself laugh, 确实.

和 then there's 天 where 你're in a completely serious mindset, where 你're like, nothing humorous is occurring to me at all.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 你 happen to be married to a comedian.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Which probably helps 你的 home life in the sense 那, 你 know, has she ever been offended by 一 of 你的 jokes?

TOM SEGURA: 你 know, early on, I remember 我们 会 have conversations where I 会 say-- it was 更多 the fact 那 I 会-- I remember, I 会 pitch a joke idea 和 she 会 be like 那's fucking awful.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: [LAUGHING]

TOM SEGURA: 和 then I told her, I go, whenever 你 think something is awful, I know it's going to be good on stage. 和 she was like, 那's horrible to say. I was like, no, it's true. If 你 have disdain 对于 what I said, then I'm pretty confident 那 it's going to work. 和 it was like 那.

但 no, 对于 the most part, no. 和 she says wildly inappropriate 和 crazy funny things. 经常 way over my line, 你 know what I mean? Not where I'm offended, 但 I'm like, Jesus Christ. Yeah, she says crazy shit. 确实 crazy.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Has she ever offended 你 to the point where 你're 你 可以't tell 那 joke in public? 我们的 family 会 suffer.

TOM SEGURA: No, 我们've 从不 had 那 conversation. Sometimes 我们 have what makes 这 joke digestible conversations, where 我们 talk 关于 a bit. 和 我们're like-- 和 then the punchline is like in 这 world. 和 it's like, OK, 你 got to find a way to say 那, 那 is going to be digestible to the-- so 你 actually look 对于 你的 own advantage.

What I mean is as a woman, I go, 你 可以 shit on women harder 因为 你're a woman. So 你 应该 find 你的 way 进入 那 bit 从 the perspective 那 你're actually-- do 你 know what I mean? Like 你're actually-- I was like, if 你're a woman, 你 可以-- it's like a Black comic 可以 talk 关于 Black 人们. 你're talking 关于 你的 own.

So like, 我们'll talk 关于 things like 那. 你 可以 take 这 angle-- 和 then the joke becomes digestible. So 我们'll talk 关于 reframing material. 和 then to me, she's like, yeah, 你're just a white guy. Apparently, 你 guys 可以 say anything. So I'm like,

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh, yeah. 确实. On the other hand, comedians 和 what's allowed in comedy at a given time has a powerful influence on culture.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: What 你 可以 say, what 你 可以't say. Has any comedian ever been canceled 对于 what they said as part of a bit? I mean, 我们've got 这些 examples of 这些-- I consider them sad instances, where 人们 break down on stage, have an interaction 与 someone in the audience, 和 it 确实 hurts their career 和 it's super offensive. 但 那's clearly not part of the bit.

TOM SEGURA: Right.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Has a comedian ever been canceled 对于, here was the bit 和 they're done?

TOM SEGURA: I 可以't tell 你 那 it comes to the top of my head--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Me either.

TOM SEGURA: --thinking 关于 那. I know there's been like-- I remember there's a Canadian comic 那 in Canada has some bizarre-- to my experience-- free speech rules.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh, OK. I think they say comics. I 总是 think--

TOM SEGURA: No.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: --of Canadians as so kind 和 well-behaved.

TOM SEGURA: 和 they have some amazing comedians.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: They also have some crazy serial killer stories up there, I discovered.

TOM SEGURA: 确实?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah. I mean, 这 idea 那 Canada is just all like, nicer America,

TOM SEGURA: Oh, 那's not--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Nice Americans is not true.

TOM SEGURA: No, no.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: They're wonderful Canadians.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 但 they're not all nice.

TOM SEGURA: No. 对于 sure, they're not all nice. No, there's some real fucking pricks up there.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: [LAUGHING]

TOM SEGURA: Yeah, I've met a few. 但 there's also amazing-- I mean, obviously 你 think of Norm MacDonald 和 Mike Myers, Ian Bagg, all 这些-- there's 确实, 确实 funny Canadian comics. 但 I remember 那 there was-- not too long ago, I'm sure 我们 could find it. There's a Canadian comic 那-- he went 之后 some woman in the crowd, shut her down. Said something offensive, whatever. 和 he got arrested 和 yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Arrested.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah, yeah. Arrested 和 had to pay substantial fines.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: There's like Lenny Bruce 天.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah, it was 确实 crazy. I don't mean like 25 years ago. I mean like sometime in the last five years.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Wow.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah. So I know they're rules on-- so 那's the 首先 thing 那 I think of when 你 say 那, I also just don't feel like-- when 人们 talk 关于 cancel culture 与 comedians 或 Elon's stupid fucking make comedy legal again, goofy shit 那 he said. It's like, what are 你 talking 关于?

你 可以 say whatever 你 want to say. The thing 你're 确实 trying to talk 关于, is the fact 那 人们 react 和 你 know 关于 it. 30 years ago, there were 人们 那 hated-- I'm sure Robin Williams. 和 Carlin, they hated him. The difference is they 会 just tell their friend.

和 if they 确实 wanted to make a point, they'd get a pen 和 a paper 和 buy a fucking stamp 和 mail them a letter. Now, 你 have social media platforms 和 人们 可以 make videos 和 go crazy 和 你 just hear the noise. 但 那's not like humanity has changed. 你 just hear 人们 telling 你 那 they don't like what 你 did 或 那 they don't think 你're funny 或 whatever. It's not 那 didn't exist 之前.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 但 那's also 因为, thanks in large part to Rogan, 但 to others as well. Most comedians seem to control the venues in which they 释放 their information-- podcasts.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I guess 你 could be thrown out of a club 和 not be able to present 你的 material there,

TOM SEGURA: Sure.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: --但 there's probably another 一 那 你 could open up. 和 那's happened too.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 但 podcasts 人们 会 now 释放 their own specials, where it's pay-to-view. There's Netflix. There are a bunch of 不同的 venues where it doesn't seem like comedy is as centralized anymore, controlled by the major media houses.

TOM SEGURA: 那 is true. It's in complete control of the comedians themselves. 你 可以 put up clips of 你 doing stand up, 你 可以 make skits, 你 可以 do short films, 你 可以 do whatever, 和 你 可以 释放 it, 和 find an audience like they say. Have an audience come to 你. 但 I just don't buy 这 whole thing 那 你 可以't joke 关于 那. 你 可以 joke 关于 whatever 你 want, man.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 但 not at work. I mean, if someone makes a joke 或 repeats a joke.

TOM SEGURA: Oh, well yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Let's say an academic setting, 对于 instance,

TOM SEGURA: Well, no.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 或 the office place.

TOM SEGURA: No, 你的 guys--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I mean,

TOM SEGURA: --world is the worst when it comes to 那. The academic world is--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Actually it's interesting, in the last five to eight years, the academic world has actually-- 大约 这 topic has become safer 因为 the rules are 非常 clear. They're what I call thick black lines. It's when things are murky 那 人们 got themselves in trouble.

TOM SEGURA: Sure.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Right. So if 你 look 10 years back, it was 确实 complicated. Now everyone kind of--

TOM SEGURA: Get's--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: --knows what the standard is.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 可能 be uncomfortable 对于 some, not 对于 others. 但 they know what the standard is. It's 非常 easy to adhere to a standard if 你 know where the fences are.

TOM SEGURA: Sure.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Where it seems to be still murky is in the workplace. Like in the boardroom, 你'll hear 关于 tech companies 或 in finance 或 at startups. 因为 startups, when they're small 通常 don't have an HR department.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: The HR department is the standards 那 你 create 大约 the office, which could be a garage. So 那's 通常 when-- when things aren't well defined is when there are problems. So yes, it's rigid in certain areas like academia, law offices, et cetera. 但 everyone knows what the rules are.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I'm not saying it's good 或 bad, I'm just saying--

TOM SEGURA: 你 know what they are. 但 I feel like 我们're talking 关于 in comedy as a profession. 你 可以 joke 关于 whatever 你 want, dude, 但 你 可以't dictate is how 人们 会 react to it. 和 if 你're trying to say-- 因为 some comedians do 这, where they go, 这 was the joke. 和 what I'm mad 关于 和 what I'm going to be vocal 关于 和 complain 关于 is 那 not everybody liked it. 你're like, yeah, 那's not-- I mean, 那's 本质上 what they're doing.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Right.

TOM SEGURA: They throw a tantrum over the fact 那 some 人们 are upset at the joke. 你're like, yeah, 那's how it goes. Like either it goes 确实 well 或 it doesn't. 和 你 可以't go, oh, see, I 可以't joke 关于 stuff 因为 look how they reacted. 你're like, 那's how 这 works.

What 你 可以 also do is completely ignore 那. 和 if 你 want double down on 你的 joke, keep going. Do it even-- do a crazier version of 你的 joke. 但 just be prepared 那 not everyone's going to go, 那 was the greatest thing ever. 和 那's what some comics do, is they go, I 可以't believe not everybody is applauding me on 这 thing.

They'll liken it to cancel culture, which is insane.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Right. Yeah, 你 have to be a professional. 和 part of being a professional is how it lands is as 重要 as--

TOM SEGURA: 你 just have no say in 那.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I'm 总是 fascinated by comics who 会 smirk 或 laugh a little bit at their own joke. 和 assuming 那 certain jokes 和 bits work exceptionally well 和 你 carry them forward 从 trying it out to Netflix specials 或 big venues, huge venues.

你 do huge venues. 你 do huge venues. Do 你 ever get tired of the material 和 worry 那 你的 amusement won't be there, 和 因此, they won't respond to it? 这 is 二 questions woven, I'm realizing. Do 你 think 你的 own amusement 与 a joke has an impact on how it lands? 那's question 一. 和 woven in 与 那 is, how do 你 then work 与 the idea 那 every time 你 tell a joke, it 可能 not be as funny as the previous time?

TOM SEGURA: No, 那些 are great questions. Yeah, I feel like if I'm smirking 或 laughing at a joke of mine, it's probably organic. I don't try to manufacture 一. 你 still want to enjoy the process of performing it. 和 when 你 lose 那 enjoyment of performing it, I do think the audience knows on an unspoken 水平 there's something 关于 it 那 doesn't come across the same way.

和 yeah, 你 sense it. 和 I think 通常 what happens-- what happened to me over time is if 你're on tour 和 你的 大脑 is walking up to 这 bit, 你 know it's next 和 你 start to internally go like, [SHRUG] 这 fucking bit. What happens naturally is 你 start to drop it. 和 你're 本质上 listening to yourself. It's 一 of 那些-- it's like the same way 你 go, I don't like 这 person.

你 go like, I don't think I want to be friends 与 这 person. 和 你 kind of like, don't return a text 或 你 go, I'm not going to hang out 与 你.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, Slow exit.

TOM SEGURA: It's a slow exit. 和 what happens is 你 drop it. 和 the great thing 关于 dropping it, is 你的 大脑 goes, hey, 你 have room 对于 something now. 和 那 room 对于 something also prompts 你的 大脑 to start thinking of new things. 那's how 你 come up 与 new material. is 那 你-- 但 你 have to--

这 is the danger, by the way, of 这些 comedians. Sometimes there's 这些 comics who are 确实 funny, 确实 talented 人们. 和 they'll have a 20-分钟 set. Right, 你'll be working in clubs 和 你 see them do a 20-分钟 set. 和 then they murder. Right, they fucking kill so hard. 和 then five years later, 你 see them 和 they're doing 那 20-分钟 set.

和 what happens is it's a 非常 natural thing 那 你 just have to deal 与, is they have 这 great fear of not killing 那 hard anymore. So they don't stop doing 那 20 分钟. 和 by not stopping, they just stop evolving 和 they stop creating. 和 they're the 20-分钟 set guy. 你 go, yeah, they have 那 great 20 分钟. 和 then it starts to get dated. 和 then--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: MMMBop.

TOM SEGURA: It's exactly--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Only a fraction of the audience 会 know what I'm talking-- there was a song 那 was the song 对于 a summer. 你 可以 replace MMMBop 与 any-- the song 对于 a summer way back when.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah, it's a summer hit.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: It was everywhere. 和 then the band just disappears, 因为 the 一 hit wonder.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah. 因为 你'll see the 非常 best comics 会 do 这. 和 it's something 你 have to wrap 你的 head 大约. 但 then once 你 do 这 long enough, 你 go, oh shit. The most elite comics are completely willing to bomb at 这些 workout shows. Not at their 小时 huge show. 但 at workout shows, super elite comics 会 go up there 和 be like, I'm just going to do-- 因为 they know 那 你 have to be willing to eat shit to come up 与 something 确实 good.

和 sometimes 你'll watch them bomb. 和 你的 own insecurities flare up. 你're like, oh my god, 这 is-- I 可以't believe-- all 这些 人们 are going to be like, 你 suck. 和 这些 guys don't care. They don't care. 因为 they know 你 have to train to get stronger, basically.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: So beautiful.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: When Josh Waitzkin was on 这 podcast, 和 he also did a conversation 与 Rogan, which is 不同的, 和 if somebody's interested in 这 stuff, they 应该 check out both 因为 they're complementary conversations. 但 Josh, who was 这 child prodigy chess champion 和 then went on to do a bunch of other things at an extremely high 水平, he talks 关于 the need 和 his lack of fear, which is 非常 admirable, 对于 cutting ties 与 你的 previous self.

Just being willing to say, 你 know what? 那 was an NBA championship. He works 与 the Boston Celtics, so 这 is 非常 relevant right now. 或 那 was last year. 我们're a new team now. 我们're not the defending champions.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 或 musician had a platinum album, 或 这 was a particularly successful podcast run. 和 just cut ties 与 it 和 be willing to just go completely now 和 future. 你 mentioned Rick. 一 of the things 那 I've benefited so much 从 being friends 与 Rick, in addition to the fact 那 I just adore the guy, is 那 he has so many stories 关于 things 从 the past, if 你 ask him. 但 he 从不 brings 那 stuff up. He'll indulge if 你 say, oh, tell me a story 关于 Joe Strummer 或 something. He'll tell me.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 但 he 确实 lives now 和 forward.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 和 I think it's Waitzkin 那 says 你 don't want to be on the train of life. 你 want to be at the strap to the front end, experiencing space 和 time as it's unfolding, which is a 非常 philosophical way to put 这. 但 那 challenge of cutting ties 与 你的 previous self to continue to evolve 你的 craft is so hard, 但 it's exactly what 你're describing.

TOM SEGURA: I mean, I had 这 rule early on 那 I think I was just lucky 那 I told myself 这. Which is 那 I recorded an album, I think, in 2010. 和 你 want to get a special 和 a deal. 但 I didn't have 一, so I recorded an album. 和 I put out the album. 和 at 那 time, 人们 are buying 这些 comedy albums. 和 你're starting to stream stuff, 和 also physical copies are still a thing, 因为 这 is 2010.

和 so 这 was my work. 从 when I started stand up to 这 album, 这 was the best I could do. 这 was all my best stand up. 和 I put it out. 和 yeah, I mean, I had some marginal success 与 it. I was selling a lot of copies 或 whatever. Well, I told myself 那 even though I was not a ticket selling comedian, 那 everybody who was at a show had heard 那 album. 那 they all knew it, which was completely not true.

但 by doing 那 to myself, it made me go, well, I need a new 小时, right? So I was lucky 那 I thought 那 way, 因为 I could have stayed doing a lot of 那 album. 因为 那些 were 确实 worked out bits 那 会 just crush. 但 I was just like, I knew 那 I wouldn't move on 和 evolve if I just kept doing them. 和 那 was the thing 那 I--

和 then the next thing I did was another album, 和 I did 那 again. I was just like, I gotta drop 这 stuff 和 move on. 和 那's, I think, what helped me 和 a bunch of other comics who-- now 我们're in the practice of like shooting specials, 和 then 你 just drop all of it 和 你 go back to square 一. 但 那 helps 你 to continue being creative in standup. 你 have to just drop stuff.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I love it. I think 这 pertains to so many-- basically all creative forms.

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On the topic of the finding the material humorous 或 being excited 关于 the material, being crucial to how it lands 与 the audience-- I'm going to make 这 非常 brief. When I was an undergraduate, I was interested in what makes something funny, the psychology 和 neuroscience of humor. 和 there wasn't a whole lot of neuroscience on it at 那 time. 但 the basic takeaway 从 the literature, as I recall, was 那 the listener thinks 那 a narrative is going 一 way, 和 then there's 这 surprise element. Something 你 didn't anticipate coming. I think 那 characterizes a lot of bits 和 a lot of jokes.

TOM SEGURA: 100%.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Whoa, it's the pop. 然而, I've also seen 你 do bits 和 other 人们 do bits where 你're headed down a trail. 和 I'm thinking, oh no, he's not going there, is he? 和 你 go there, 和 那's hysterical also.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: So is there a name 对于 这, 或 how does it work?

TOM SEGURA: No, I think-- I mean, 你're right. So the most basic necessity 对于, I think, comedy at a 非常 baseline 水平 to explain it 或 define it, is the element of surprise. 因为 与 那 thing, if 你 go, I know where 这 is going, 你're not going to react the same way. If it gets 你, it's, oh my god.

但 那 秒 description of, is 那 person going somewhere, I think 那 satisfies something in human beings. Which is somebody saying the thing 那 我们 all want to say. 和 你 可以't say it. 你 可以't say it in polite society. 你 可以't say it at a nice dinner function. 你 可以't say it at work. 和 你're just like, god, 这 is what I think. 和 你 know other 人们 think it. 和 then the guy's up there, 和 he's going, hey, 你 want to hear some shit?

和 somebody says it, 和 everyone goes, 这 is-- it becomes a 释放. It's a 释放 of, oh, he's saying the thing 那 我们 all wish 我们 could say. 和 你're saying it. It's a 非常 particular thing, 因为 it actually is-- it works 因为 你're in 那 building, too. It works 因为 你 all have the unspoken agreement 那 这 is a place to do 这 in. Right, it's still 不同的. If I just walk up to 你 on the street 和 start saying 那 shit, 你're like, Jesus Christ, dude. 你're a psycho.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Lock him up.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah, 但 in 这 context. So both things satisfy something, I think, in the humor realm. Right, the element of surprise 会 总是 be something, like the unexpected. 但 there's also 这 condition I think 我们 live 与 where 我们 go, 我们 all think 这 但 我们 可以't say it. 和 那 那's a 非常 satisfying thing when somebody says it.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, I had the great benefit of getting a sneak peek at Bad Thoughts.

TOM SEGURA: Oh, yeah, thanks.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 和 it's amazing. 人们 应该 definitely check it out. 和 I don't want to give anything away, 但 the 秒 一 in the sequence 那 I watched, I thought, there's no way he's doing 这. 和 it just kept coming at me. I was like, there's no way. Went to sleep last 夜间. 和 这 doesn't happen to me in a long time-- I woke up laughing.

TOM SEGURA: Oh, yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Which is a wonderful experience.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah, it is.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: There are only a few states of 心智 和 身体 那 你 wake up in 和 你're like, well, 那 was amazing.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 和 I woke up laughing. So it's seeded 进入 my unconscious. So now I'm worried I'm going to say some of the things 那 你 said.

TOM SEGURA: I hope 你 do.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 但 一 thing 那 occurred to me in watching Bad Thoughts is 那 你're not just a phenomenal comedian, 但 你're also a 确实 good actor.

TOM SEGURA: Oh, thank 你.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 和 a number of comedians seem able to act. Which is surprising to me 对于 reasons 那 don't make any sense to me.

TOM SEGURA: 但 no.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: If 你 look at-- athletes 经常 are terrible actors. I mean, some of the best acting 那 athletes have done is when they're playing a buffoon. 或 they're supposed to not be able to act well. I think of someone like the Naked Gun movies.

TOM SEGURA: Shout out to OJ, right?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: To OJ, right? I mean, he's not a good actor.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 和 it worked 因为 he wasn't a good actor.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 但 你're a 非常 good actor.

TOM SEGURA: Thank 你.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Did 你 train 对于 it?

TOM SEGURA: I loved making 人们 laugh. 和 the 首先 thing I did like in performing was I did a play as a kid. I did an improv troupe at 14, which is pretty young to be in an improv troupe. I did 那 对于 a summer. 和 my whole thing was I wanted to make movies. I had a plan when I was in college. I had the communications track, so 我们 会 do TV radio production.

和 when 我们 had video projects, I 会 总是 do comedy things 和 everybody 会 be like, what are 你 doing? Why are 你 making 这? 你're supposed to be making a video 关于 the soccer program. 和 I'm like, 这 is a capsule 你 put in 你的 ass 和 it freezes 你的 shit. I 会 make like diarrhea commercials. 和 they were like, don't do 那. 但 这 is the stuff 那 会 made-- 那 was making me laugh.

和 I wanted to make movies. 和 I just was like, 那 was what I wanted to do. 和 then I moved out here. 和 I had learned. I knew 那 at the time, some of 这些 big comedy movie 人们 were a product of SNL. 和 那 那些 人们 were usually products of 秒 City 或 the Groundlings. 和 since I moved to LA, the Groundlings were big in LA. It's the improv school 和 a 表现 play. They put on shows.

I was like, 那's what I'll do. I'll just go to the Groundlings. 和 I took some classes there, 和 I got 通过 a few 水平. 但 I got 进入 standup shortly thereafter 那. Some of my improv friends were like, 你 应该 try standup. 和 I got so hooked by standup. 和 I also saw a path. 因为 I was also like, well, 你 have to make a living, right?

和 the actor's life, to me, is so unsettling 与 like, 你're on a show. 和 then they're like, I don't have a gig anymore. To me, the fact 那 standup, even though it's 非常, 非常, 非常 low pay, 尤其是 as 你're getting 进入 it, the fact 那 你 可以 just keep doing it, to me, made sense. It soothed me. 和 I feel like I stopped 训练 as far as-- I did another acting class in LA at 那 time early on. 但 I 总是 just wanted to keep doing it.

和 so every once in a while, I 会 make like a short film. I made a few short films 与 friends 或 comedy shorts. 和 I auditioned 对于 some things. I did small parts here 和 there. 但 I 从不 确实 got to do all the types of things I wanted to do. So 这 show became 这 incredible opportunity where I was like, where are 我们 going to tell 这 type of story, 这 type of story?

因为 it's 本质上 a collection of short stories, is what the show is, right. 和 some of them are self-contained. Some of them are 二 part, 三 part. 但 it allowed me as an actor to play all 这些 不同的 roles, which was so fun. It felt like I was doing-- the 20 years I didn't 确实 act 那 much, I got to throw in all 这些 不同的 characters in the show.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, 你're a 非常 fine actor.

TOM SEGURA: Thank 你.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: As they say. I was like, oh, he's acting. 这 isn't just standup.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Standup is its own thing. In previous Netflix specials-- 但 I've also seen 你 do in 这些 bits in smaller clubs, like at The Belly up in Aspen.

TOM SEGURA: 那's right.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Smaller places.

TOM SEGURA: 那's right.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Where 我们 just coincidentally wore the exact--

TOM SEGURA: The exact same thing.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: So same flannel, same jeans, same Adidas. So it was 确实 weird. Did not coordinate.

TOM SEGURA: 那's DNA.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 那's DNA. 和 the cosmic correspondence of the butterfly effect.

TOM SEGURA: 那's-- yes.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 那's what my dad was trying to explain to me at 一 point. 你 do voices 非常 well. In particular, the voices of 你的 kids. I 总是 think 那 when somebody impersonates somebody else, it's 关于 grabbing the key elements, not the whole piece. They don't turn 大约 和 come back 和 say--

TOM SEGURA: Right.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Some 人们 可以 just grab a few key elements of somebody. In 这 case, someone 我们've 从不 met. It was 你的 sons. 和 我们 feel like 我们 know them 和 我们're getting what clearly are key features of their personality coming 通过. Do 你 practice 那些, 或 do 你 just observe 和 it just is embedded in 你?

TOM SEGURA: I think it's observed 和 embedded. 和 I think in 那 case in particular, 因为 与 你的 kids, there's 这 thing 那 happens where 你 talk 关于 你的 kids a lot not on stage. In other words, I'm talking to my sisters 或 I'm talking to a friend 关于 the kids. So 你 get 这 extra practice 关于 them, 因为 they are so much something 那-- 人们 总是 are like, how are 你的 kids, right? 和 so 你're just like, oh, I got home. 这 little shit came in. He was like, hey, fucking pick me up.

So 你 start doing impressions.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: What impression is 那?

TOM SEGURA: 那's the little guy.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh, yeah. He sounds like a piece of work, man.

TOM SEGURA: He is a piece of work, dude. He is something else. It's so funny. Sometimes, 我们 call him Little Joe Pesci. 因为 he's just like, what the fuck? 和 我们're like, yo, man. I don't say 那.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: How old is he?

TOM SEGURA: He's six.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh my goodness.

TOM SEGURA: He's six. 和 he's like, he's fucking fucking 与 me all 天, Dad. 和 I'm like--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: He get 那 从 你 或 从 你的 wife?

TOM SEGURA: I feel like it's 更多 her. I feel like she's got 那些--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I'll have to ask her.

TOM SEGURA: She's got 那些 Hungarian roots where they-- like when I was a kid, in 我们的 house, there was not a lot of cursing, dude.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh, no. I'd get whacked if I--

TOM SEGURA: Oh, yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: No, not hit. I think if I talk back. It only happened twice in my life.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I spoke back. I won't say to which parent. 和 I got hit.

TOM SEGURA: OK.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Nowadays 人们 are like, oh, he was beaten up. I'm fine. OK? I don't swear at 人们.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 非常 经常. It's an extreme circumstance. Yeah, so, OK, so 但 he swears all the time, apparently.

TOM SEGURA: Dude, I mean, to the point where 我们're-- I mean, I know 人们, whenever 你 talk 关于 这, 人们 are like, 你're a bad dad. I'm like, shut the fuck up. 你've 从不 been 大约-- 这些 boys are-- I have 二 little wild dudes. By the way, I 总是 share stories of extremes. They're sweet, adorable, loving, wonderful kids, right. 但 they're just 二 little dudes who, I come home, 和 they're like, it's torture time. They call it torture time, where I lay down 和 then they just get to fuck me up.

和 then they'll think they're stronger than me. 和 I'm like, bro. Do 你 want to feel 这? 和 then I just put them in some crazy wrap where they go, OK, OK, OK OK, OK. I'm like, yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: How old's the older 一?

TOM SEGURA: He's nine. He's nine. Dude, I get home every 天. He's like, check 这 out. He takes off his shirt, 和 he's like-- he flexes.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh yeah.

TOM SEGURA: He's like, I'm going to be so jacked by high school. I'm like, yes. Probably. 和 he's lean. He's got the 身体 对于 it. 我们 go to the park, 和 he's just sitting there doing pullups 和 he'll bring weights. He'll bring weights to the park. 和 你 see other kids.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 那's the age to start.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: There's an Instagram account of 这 guy. I'll dig it up 对于 the captions. His daughter is probably 11. 和 she's doing pullups 与 a 45-pound plate 和 ankle weights strapped to her waist.

TOM SEGURA: 确实?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 和 she's doing pullups 通过 the chest. 和 she's not built yet. She's clearly 之前 puberty. 和 she's just--

I'm like, oh my goodness. 你 just imagine the tendon 力量, the joint 力量.

TOM SEGURA: Going to be--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, little gymnast, perhaps.

TOM SEGURA: Keith, he's so 进入 it, talking 关于 six packs. 你 think I could have a six pack soon? I'm like, yeah, sure. Keep going, man. He goes, why don't 你 have 一? I'm like, just fucking--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: He's already busting 你的 balls.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 你 told me a story once over dinner 关于 你的 son learning piano. I don't know if 你 remember 那. I think it was the younger 一. 和 it was something like, how's piano going? 和 你的 son, he goes, it fucking sucks. It sounds like 那's his response. He's ready to pop back all the time.

TOM SEGURA: 总是. No, he's completely ready. The funniest thing 那 he did recently was-- they both go to jiu-jitsu.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: OK.

TOM SEGURA: 和 the older 一's 确实 thriving. He has a skill 对于 it. 和 he's doing it well, moving up. 和 the younger guy, I mean, he's like a puppy. Well, he started when he was five. It's just 不同的, right. 你're pretty young. 和 so 我们're at class 和 he goes, I'm not doing 这 anymore. I'm like, what do 你 mean? He goes, I'm too busy, man. 和 I go, what?

He goes, my schedule. I go, 你的 schedule? I go, OK, tell the instructor. So 那 guy comes over. 和 he goes, hey, how'd 你 enjoy class today, Julian? 和 he was like, good, 但 I'm done. 和 he goes, what do 你 mean 你're done? 和 he goes, I'm too busy, man. He's like, what are 你 too busy 与? He goes, I've have kindergarten, I have Spanish, I have drums. I don't have time 对于 这.

I'm sitting there like, 这 is insane. 和 那 guy goes, 但 你 know what? 你 got to be strong in 这 world, don't 你? 和 he goes, yeah. He goes, yeah, there's no option 对于 being strong. So 因为 你 可以't have the option to not be strong, right? 和 Julian's like, 那's right. He's like, great. So I'll see 你 Thursday. 和 he goes, I told 你, I'm way too busy, man. 和 then he just was like, I'm not doing 这 anymore.

I'm like, OK, dude, so--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: He's done?

TOM SEGURA: He's done. I mean, also, he 可以 确实 advocate 对于 himself. He definitely advocates 对于 himself. I've 从不 been the type where, 你 have to do 这些. I feel like the fun thing 关于 a kid, boy 或 girl 与 sports, is expose them to a lot of sports. 和 I don't want to go, 你 have to do 这些. Whatever sport 你 like, 你 可以 do 那 一.

Clearly, 这 wasn't the 一 那 drew him in enough. 和 I'm totally fine 与 it. It's like, cool. 你 want to try tennis? 你 want to try soccer? I'll let them try all the sports. I want them to be in activities. 但 I'm not going to be like, 你 have to do all 这些 sports.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Meanwhile, they're becoming comics in their 心智.

TOM SEGURA: Oh, they're-- yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Both parents are comics.

TOM SEGURA: They're funny dudes. They are 非常 funny. Yeah. They love to laugh. 和 it's fun, 因为 你 see kids. When a kid says something 那's genuinely funny 和 你 start laughing, 你 see 那 look in their eye. They're like, oh, 那's cool. They just try to do it again. 和 if they do it too much, 你're like, yeah, it's not funny anymore. 你 可以't do it 那 much.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, 那 is a perfect cue 对于 me to ask what I was going to ask earlier when 我们 were talking 关于 when 你 are amused by something, 你 确实 delight in telling 这 bit.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: It impacts the audience 和 how it lands. There's a 非常 famous patient in neuroscience. Probably the most famous patient. His name is HM. So 我们 don't know his real name. He's dead now. 但 he had a lesion to his hippocampus, 这 大脑 area involved in memory. 和 he was studied extensively 对于 decades. 和 most of what 我们 know 关于 human memory is 从 这 guy. All the other stuff, 我们 know 从 mouse 研究. A little bit 从 monkey 研究.

TOM SEGURA: Wow.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: So there's a 非常 well-known 研究 where 你 go in. 和 he has no retrograde memory. He 可以't remember anything 那 你 told him 之前. 但 within a matter of 秒, he forgets it completely. 和 they've tested 这 every which way. OK.

TOM SEGURA: Holy shit.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: His 大脑 is now in a jar. It's been scanned, et cetera. 但 so the 研究 goes something like 这. 你 go in 和 你 tell HM a joke. 和 he laughs. 和 he thinks it's 非常 funny. Then 你 leave 和 你 come back. 和 he doesn't remember who 你 are. 这 has been tested again 和 again. He's not fibbing, OK. 和 there are number of ways 那 你 可以 measure 这, 尤其是 if 你 make it, sadly, some survival based things.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 你 tell him the joke again. 和 he laughs again, 但 a little 更少. 和 the next time a little 更少 和 a little 更少. 和 eventually he's like, yeah, 那 was not 确实 funny.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Same joke-- he does not remember the joke. 但 there seems to be some unconscious memory of the joke, which I 总是 found fascinating. So it's almost like the narrative 大约 something, 我们 get saturated to it. 我们're all familiar 与 the friend at a dinner party 那 tells a joke 和 everybody laughs. 和 then they make the cardinal mistake, which is to tell the joke again at the same dinner. 和 it just burns it. It burns it there, 和 it burns it the previous time.

I mean, I'm not asking 你 to be a neurologist 或 a neuroscientist.

TOM SEGURA: No, no.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 但 what do 你 think is going on here? Not necessarily in HM, the patient. 但 there's something 关于 telling 那 funny punchline twice 那 你 just-- I feel like men, guys seem to do 这 更多. It's like, 你 got it. 你 nailed it.

TOM SEGURA: Yes.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Do not tell the joke again.

TOM SEGURA: Well, every guy thinks he 可以 fight, fuck, is funny, 和 可以 drive. 那些 are the four things 那 every guy thinks he's awesome at. 和 你're lucky if 你're marginal at 一. 你 know what I mean? Every dude is like, I 可以 drive. I'm hilarious. I 可以 fight, chicks. Every guy has 这 thing.

和 then the 更多 self-aware ones go, I'm not good at 这些. I'm good at 这 一.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: So I'll train.

TOM SEGURA: 你 know what I I mean? 那's--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Cross-train.

TOM SEGURA: Cross-train, man. 你 gotta do them all. 但 the funny thing is, when 你 were talking 关于 HM, what I thought 你 were going to-- the point 你 were making is 那 你 go back in 和 it's not HM 那 is not laughing anymore at the funny thing. It's 那 the person telling is 那 你 lose something. 因为 there is 这 thing in stand 那 is like a phenomenon. I don't have the answer to.

但 any comedian 你 talk to 会 tell 你 那 这 is true, where 你 go 和 你 say 这 thing. Right, it 可能 be 你的 opening thing. 或 it could be a couple 分钟 in 和 你 say the joke, 你 tell the thing. 和 it kills. 和 你're like, fuck yeah, 这 is awesome. 你的 大脑 just goes, lock it in. 和 then the next 夜间, 你 go 和 你 say it. 和 it gets laughs. 但 it's a little 更少.

和 then 这 progresses. 你 keep doing shows. 和 it's like 二 months later, 和 你're like, the thing is not-- it doesn't 确实 work. 和 then 你'll go listen to-- I think I'm saying it the same way. It's like sometimes there's 这 thing where it's like there's a magical quality of if it just streamed out of 你 once, in 这 setting, in 这 room, at 这 moment, there's something 关于 the way 那 你 said it 和 the timing 与 which 你 said it 那 it evoked all 这 laughter. 和 那 对于 some reason, 这 thing no longer connects 和 just, it doesn't register.

和 你 try to do the analysis of why 那 is the case. 和 你 本质上 just end up doing 这. 你're just like, I don't know why, 但 it just stopped being funny. To all new audiences, it killed over here, it doesn't work here.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 那's so interesting. I'm obsessed 与 mainly 二 things-- time perception 和 state changes in the human 大脑. 我们 know so much 关于 REM sleep 和 slow wave sleep. 我们 know 非常 little 关于 waking states. Like alert 和 focused. 或 我们 have 这些 terms, 但 there's so much 更多 going on there. 和 so the question is 这. 我们're at a club 或 a stadium, 和 你're going to go on 但 I go on 首先, which means my bit sucks. It just sucks, 因为 I'm not a comedian.

Someone else goes on. Let's say Brian Holtzman, I find 非常 funny.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah, yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: He's good, right? I mean when he's on, he's 确实 on. He's 非常 funny. Holtzman goes on 和 does 确实 well.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Who do 你 want to follow?

TOM SEGURA: Holtzman.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 因为 the crowd is in a state of being ready to receive the jokes.

TOM SEGURA: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. I feel like when 你're newer, probably the typical answer 对于 most comedians 会 be like, I want to follow the guy 那 didn't do well. Right, 因为 then I 可以 save the 天. 但 the longer 你 do it, 你 realize 那's not actually-- 你 actually want the guy in front of 你 to do well, even 确实 well. 因为 it does generate 这 thing of, 这 is what 这 is. 我们're at a place of doing 这. It's jokes. It's fun.

和 我们 borrow the term, ride their wave. 那 guy just created a wave. 和 if 你 可以 jump on it. Sometimes 你 have to reset. 你're letting the audience know, 这 is a 不同的 thing. 尤其是 if they absolutely murder. If they destroy, 你're like, whoa. 你 just go, yeah, I'm a new person. 和 the thing is, 你 don't want to go, I'm scared 那 那 happened. 你 just go, 这 is my thing now.

但 你 have them in the state of 这 is-- 我们're here to laugh. Whereas the guy who just ate shit, they are all like, what the fuck is 这? 和 then they basically dug a hole. So then 你 go up there. 你're now the person 那 has to set the table 和 be like, so I know 那 last thing felt like a fucking eulogy. So now, I 会 try to get 你 out of feeling the way 你 feel 和 make 你 understand 那 it's joke time.

你'll 经常 start slower by following the person 那 did poorly. Right, 你 think, it's, oh, 你're funny. It's now going to go well. 你 have to cook it back up. So following the good comic is 总是 the better choice.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I'm thinking of giving toasts at weddings.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: If somebody gives a 确实 great toast, giving the next toast, 你're saying, oh, 那's a hard act to follow. No, actually, it's an easy act to follow.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 因为 everyone's just basking in whatever just happened. It sounds 相似的.

TOM SEGURA: 那's right.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: The state changes. Whether 或 not 我们're talking 关于 running 或 你're talking 关于 cannabis 或 你're talking 关于 whatever it is, I mean, I find 那 so much of the creative process 或 the constructive process, science 或 comedy 或 whatever, is 关于 accessing 这些 states. 和 我们 learn how to do it 通过 what becomes an unconscious process. 但 how to get there.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Again 和 again. 和 so much of becoming a professional is 关于 going 通过 the peaks 和 valleys of bombing 和 coming back.

TOM SEGURA: Totally.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: So I'm curious, 之前 你 go out on stage now, given the size of the crowd, is just the memory of what's 关于 to happen sufficient to put 你 in the state?

TOM SEGURA: So the thing is, the longer 你 do it 和 the 更多 shows 你 do, 你've performed in every state. Sometimes 你 have to remind-- I like to remind myself 那 I'm at my funniest. 和 I'm the best version of myself on stage when I have a silly mindset going. Meaning just goofing off. Being a kid, almost. So if I'm backstage 和 I have 你 in there 和 I'm just saying-- I'm poking 你. Not roasting 你, 但 being silly, right?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 我们're related.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah. Just being silly. I feel like 那 mindset is the best version of me to go on stage. 和 你 可以 forget it by-- I forget it all the time, right. 因为 I've performed tired, upset, sad, anxious. I've performed in every 可能 state. 但 I do like to tell myself, oh yeah, don't forget, get yourself 进入 这 silly state.

I also like-- I'm an introvert, right. There's some true extrovert comics, like Buddy Bert. A true extrovert. 和 his green room 之前 a show 会 have 80 人们 in it. 和 I'm like, what? I like my green room to have either just me 或 二 或 三 人们. 和 chill 能量. 但 it's still loose, right. It's not like a serious thing. 但 loose fun. 和 那 gets me 进入 the mindset of, 这 is going to be fun. I look over my set list.

你 listen to what the crowd's like 和 你're like, oh, they sound they sound hot. 那 gets 你 excited. 但 I try to embrace 那 mindset of, let's have fun. Let's have fun. 那 puts me in a good place as a performer on stage.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Do 你 watch a lot of comedy? The greats. Do 你--

TOM SEGURA: I don't watch a lot of comedy anymore, I 会 say. As a kid, I mean, I think the reason 你 follow 这 path is 因为 你're just such a huge fan of it. So growing up, I watched a lot of the 晚上 at the Improv, Def Jam specials. It was also specials were truly special, right. 因为 there was six specials maybe a year.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Eddie Murphy.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah. Eddie 和 Chris Rock 和 Carlin. 和 all 那些 guys 会 put out a special, I mean, once every few years. 和 there was only a few places. HBO was just the place. 和 then Comedy Central became the other-- HBO was premium. Real elite. Huge, huge talent. 和 then Comedy Central was everybody else. 和 then now the landscape has changed where 我们 get-- I don't know, man. I feel like there's 300 specials a year. Right, 因为 你 可以 释放 them on-- they're on Netflix, they're on Max, they're on Hulu, they're on Amazon, they're on YouTube.

你're bombarded 与-- it's great in 一 regard 对于 standup, 因为 it speaks to how popular standup is. 和 it's so accessible, 和 it's cool 那 so many 人们 可以 put out their stuff. 但 it's just overwhelming. So I'll only check out-- I feel like in the last couple of years, I've maybe seen 二 specials. A lot of times, I'll start a special. Turn it off 之后 10 分钟. Want to see what someone's doing.

但 I find it personally hard to finish a special. 但 I also find it hard to watch stand up in the room, at a club 或 something. I leave. I don't mean I leave the venue. I just leave the room. It's just harder 对于 me to-- I feel anxious. I think it's 确实 关于 me internalizing what I feel like the feeling is on stage. If it's 确实, 确实 good standup, then I sit there 和 I go, oh my god, 和 I enjoy it.

但 if there's any bit of it 那 feels like maybe 那's not working 或 那 guy's anxious 或 whatever, it reminds me of my own feelings on stage 那 are like 那. 和 I don't want to be in 那 space. So I leave the room, 和 I'll just go sit somewhere else.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I mean, so much of what 我们're talking 关于 today, I just realized, is emotional contagion. It 确实 introduces 这 question. 这 is 非常 reductionist thinking, 但 how much of the success of a bit 或 a joke is the emotion 那 the person telling it is carrying, 和 how much of it is the actual words 和 content? It's probably 那, plus the rhythm 和 the timing. There's a lot of things.

TOM SEGURA: It's 确实 a combination of 那些 things.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Emotional contagion is real. 你're talking 关于 it as a comedian watching comedy. It permeates 你.

TOM SEGURA: Is 那 what it's called, emotional contagion?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Emotional contagion. 和 some 人们 are 更多 emotionally permeable than others.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 我们 could put 这 on a spectrum. 我们 could even put it on the-- so what used to be called the autistic spectrum. 人们 who 确实 contained in their emotions. Things don't get them. 但 人们 at the far end of 那 spectrum, they have a sensory sensitivity. Autistic kids 那 are 确实 severely autistic, the amount of noise in a typical room is overwhelming.

TOM SEGURA: It's overwhelming, right.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: They actually have discovered 那 那's actually outside the 大脑, 那 their sensory endings are tuned differently to the world. They're experiencing the world 非常, 非常 differently. 你 have 这些 certain 人们 get scared when they watch a movie 和 they jump when the monster jumps out. Other 人们 are 更少 of a startled response.

TOM SEGURA: I get startled.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I get startled. Yeah. I think 那 it's natural to get startled. I think 那 some 人们 just have 非常 flat affect, 和 some 人们 可以-- it's like a seesaw. 和 对于 some 人们, the hinge is tight. 那 doesn't necessarily mean they're calm. Some 人们 are just pissed off all the time, 和 the hinge is tight. Some 人们 are happy all the time 和 the hinge is tight.

Most 人们, 那 hinge 可以 move. 和 so 这 thing of emotional contagion is largely-- 这 is what's so interesting, it's largely fed 通过 the way things sound. Somewhat 通过 faces, 但 largely 通过 the way 那 things sound. 和 then there seems to be, 和 not a lot is known 关于 这 yet, a sixth sense where actually an 能量 in the room 可以 start to literally cascade 从 一 person to the next. 和 这 has been studied in animals.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 与 the fear response. 你 可以 literally take an animal, scare it, take it out of 那 tube, put another animal in there, 和 it 会 show a fear response based on something molecular in the 空气.

TOM SEGURA: 确实?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Absolutely. I mean, their 激素 work within us, pheromones between 二 members of the species. They're clearly pheromone-like effects. 我们 haven't identified what 那些 pheromones are. Same thing 可以 happen in crowds. 你 可以 get a hysteria.

TOM SEGURA: 我们 do feel like the best experience as a comedian performing is where 你 feel like the audience is 一. They are 一. It's not 10,000 separate 人们. It's like 这 is all together. When 那's going as well as it 可以 go, 那 is like an incredible rush. 和 the feeling is 那 they do mold. It's like they started as 10,000 人们, 和 then they just become 这 一 thing. 和 你're rocking 这 一 entity out there together.

Same way 那 the opposite, when it's 确实 bad. It doesn't feel like 你 可以 feel like, oh, they're together in not liking 这. 这 is 一 crowd going, no. 你 know what I mean? 那 feeling is the opposite of bombing beyond emptiness 那 你 feel. 但 你 feel it. They are together. They're unified in how they feel 关于 这.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 这 is why some 人们, including me, fear going to theater. My sister loves theater. 我们 go to New York in the fall 对于 我们的 birthdays. 和 因为 she loves theater, 我们 go to theater. 和 if theater is great, it's amazing. If theater is bad, it leaves me feeling bad 对于 the 人们. The tone in the room is like, ooh. It's heavy.

TOM SEGURA: Heavy.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: It's not just like, turn off the special. It sucks. It takes 你 to a lower place.

TOM SEGURA: Well, live is 总是-- it's just such a 不同的 experience. 你 know what I think 关于? I don't know if there's any science to 这. 但 I 总是 sometimes think 关于 the fact 那 I feel like comedy specifically as an art form 可能 be the most involuntarily subjective. Meaning 那 if 你 look at a photo 或 a piece of art, 你 可能 go, I don't like 那. 和 then I 可能 educate 你 in some way 关于 it. 和 你 look at it differently.

和 then maybe over time, 你 go, I actually love 这 painting. 或 music is definitely 一 where 你 have an involuntary response. 但 I have not cared 对于 music 和 then actually started to it 更多. 但 I feel like comedy, it's not-- 你're not 确实 thinking-- when 你 laugh hard at something, 你're not like, oh, I thought 关于 it 对于 a while 和 I'm going to start laughing now. Right, 你 laugh.

和 if 你 don't laugh, 你're just like, yeah, I don't find 那 funny. 你 don't usually come back 和 go, now 那 你've talked to me 关于 it, I'm going to start laughing. It 确实 is 这 experience where it happens 没有-- so 你的 大脑 is telling 你, 这 is what's funny. Right, it's happening separate 从 你. 和 there's no faking it. 你're either laughing 或 你're not. 和 if 你 laugh 确实 hard, it's 这 great experience. 但 你 可以't convince someone to laugh 那 hard.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: A 非常 重要 point 那 从不 occurred to me. I love art history. In part 因为 I like art. I've 总是 liked art.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 但 by taking an art history class, I've literally fallen in love 与 certain artists 和 their paintings. 和 I look at certain paintings completely differently now, as 你 point out, on the basis of what I know 关于 what the art represents, the history of the artist. If a joke isn't funny to me 或 a bit isn't funny, I don't care what the process was--

TOM SEGURA: Right.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: --对于 那 bit. I'm like, it's just not funny.

TOM SEGURA: It's just not.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, it seems like it's 一 of the purest yum, yuck, 或 meh kind of things. Which is another point of neuroscience. The 神经系统 has degrees of 这, 但 it basically bins things 非常 quickly 进入 yum, 这 is awesome, 或 hilarious, 或 whatever. Yuck. Like, no. 和 kind of meh.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Within each 一 of 那些 bins, there's a lot of variation.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Love, love, love, hate, hate, hate. 但 你的 大脑 makes a decision 确实 quickly. Yum, yuck, 或 meh?

TOM SEGURA: Right. Right. 和 尤其是 与 不同的 arts. Right, I mean, literally, 你 look at the photo 和 你的 大脑 tells 你, right. Most of the time, 你're not going to go back to 那 和 have a much 不同的 response. Right, I mean, 与 comedy, 你're not going to have the response.

I did Spanish art history when I was studying in Madrid. 和 they 会 take us to the Prado Museum 和 give us 我们的 lectures in front of the pieces of art. Yeah, 你的 大脑 starts to not just appreciate it. 你 start to fall in love 与 the paintings. 和 你 go, oh, I view 这 differently. 那 type of experience doesn't 确实-- 可以't happen 与 comedy. I'm not going to be like, start laughing, dude, listen to how 这-- 你 know what I mean?

It is what it is. 你的 大脑, it's so quick whether 或 not it makes 你 laugh.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 和 if something's not funny, if 你 tell me, he toiled on 这 对于 40 years, I'd be like, well, then it 尤其是 sucks.

TOM SEGURA: It's 确实 shit.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Whereas 你 show me a sculpture I 可能 not appreciate, 和 你 explain what went 进入 那.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 你 可以 develop at least an appreciation 对于 it. 你're like, 这 is interesting.

TOM SEGURA: Versions of 这 happen all the time. 尤其是 now, 因为 everything's shareable. Where 你的 friend goes, check 这 out. 和 你 watch the thing 和 你're like, OK. 和 they're like, isn't 那 the funniest thing 你've ever seen? 你're like, no. They're like, 你 didn't like 那? No.

和 那's how it ends. They're like, yeah, 但 he's saying 那 he's late 因为 he-- I'm like, yeah, I'm not laughing, dude. I don't know what to tell 你. 和 then they go, OK. 但 they had a 不同的 experience 与 it 那 你 可以't-- 你 可以't articulate 和 intellectualize the experience to someone where they go, oh yeah, now I think it's funny.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, I think 这 gets back to HM 和 这 idea 那 there's a subconscious-- just an unaware process 那 dictates whether 或 not something's funny 或 not.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: It tickles 我们的 大脑 below the 水平 of precise understanding. 和 I'm so fascinated by 这. 因为 as 你 point out, there just aren't other things like 这. 你 could say 这 关于 人们. Like, oh, liked 这 person right away, didn't like them.

TOM SEGURA: Yes.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 但 in general, the 更多 那 我们 learn 关于 人们-- 这 is why all the efforts to try 和 erase racism, 对于 instance, the 更多 你 learn 关于 a culture, the 更多 你 tend to like the 人们 of 那 culture.

TOM SEGURA: Totally, yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Even if 你 were archenemies 对于 decades 或 hundreds of years 之前, there's just the way the human 大脑 works. Then 与 comedy, it feels like it's like chemistry.

TOM SEGURA: It does.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 和 of course, 你 可以 say, well, 你 like 或 don't like the comic. 但 I have to imagine 那 你 like it 或 not probably represent the bad boyfriend 或 the abusive dad to somebody 或 the friend 那 they loved in college. Let's make it positive, too. 或 the guy they like to be 大约. I mean, 你 don't know 那 人们's relationship to 你.

TOM SEGURA: 你 从不 know.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 和 so the humor may land 或 not land, depending on all sorts of unconscious stuff going on.

TOM SEGURA: So much. 和 你 realize, too, 那 你 可以 have a joke 关于 a teacher. 你 know what I mean? It's part of 你的 bit. 你're not thinking of 那. 和 你 saying 那 has a ripple effect 那 你 don't realize. To 不同的 人们 in the audience 对于 dozens of 不同的 reasons. 你 could have just said the word teacher, 和 the person's like, I am a teacher. 和 then 那's pleasing to them. They feel seen. The other person hated their teacher.

你 know what I mean? They start thinking 关于 all 这些 little things where 你 go, I just said 一 word 关于 这 和 你 don't realize 那 it triggers other thoughts in 人们's minds.

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Let's talk 关于 crowd work.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Fascinated by it.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 非常, 非常 distinct aspect of the comedy experience. 你 know what I mean? At a big rock concert, I mean, the singer 可能 put out a fist to someone in the audience 或 even let somebody sing 对于 a moment. 但 maybe let someone up on stage. 但 crowd work is like, 你're 确实 giving up a lot of control.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Right, if 你 ask a question, I mean, 你 have to be able to work off whatever comes back. Do 你 do crowd work?

TOM SEGURA: I mean, I feel like crowd work is just part of the arsenal of skills 你 have over time as a comedian. 你 have to be able to improvise. 你 have to be able to handle crowd work. 你 have to be able to write material. 你 have to be able to do all 那些 things. I don't go up 和 do crowd work shows. There are some 人们 那 are like, 这 is a crowd work show.

但 I've been doing stand up 23 years. 和 尤其是 when 你're in the club 系统, when 你're an unknown 和 你're just doing weekends 和 人们 are drunk, crowd work just becomes part of how 你 do it. 你 don't have an option to not-- 你 could just not develop the skill set 和 then just die up there. 但 你 know what I mean? It's a necessity.

So at 这 point, I feel like I want to go on stage 与, I want to do X, Y, Z. I want to execute 这些 things. I want to get 这些 jokes out. I want to say 这些 things. 但 你're 从不, ever to the point where 你 go, 和 因此, I am removed 从 having to do any type of crowd. 因为 crowd work is-- usually it's a response to something happening. 你're being heckled, somebody's saying something.

There's 这 thing 那 if 你're in a huge venue, 你 don't want to actually go, hey, what's going on 与 你, buddy? Right, 因为 there's somebody up in the 300 section who's like, I don't know what's going on. 但 the other side of it is 你 cannot ignore the obvious. Meaning if a fight breaks out, if somebody throws something, if somebody is screaming, 和 你 just go, I'm just not going to-- I'm going to act like 那's not happening. I'm going to keep doing standup, what I wanted to do.

Then 人们 go, 这 is weird. Right, 因为 这 person's ignoring the obvious.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Right, 你're no longer connected to them in the same way.

TOM SEGURA: Exactly. They know 那 there's a disconnect now. 你're ignoring 那? So 那's how 你 stay in having-- 你 have to maintain the skill set. Some 人们 make it 更多 of an emphasis of their show. 和 there's 确实, 确实 good 人们 at doing 那. I feel like it's also part-- it's 更多 of like the DNA of New York comics, too. I've 总是 thought 那 the 水平 of proficiency there is 确实 high in 那 scene. 更多 of a back 和 forth.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: It's the small venues--

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I go to the Comedy Cellar when I'm out there. I don't know if it's still 一 of the main places.

TOM SEGURA: Oh, absolutely.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: If there's a better 一, let me know. 但 my sister's 总是 like, are 我们 going to go to the Cellar again?

TOM SEGURA: Yeah, Cellar is fantastic.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 我们的 favorite nights there actually were nights where it was pretty bad 和 我们 可以 laugh 关于 那.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 但 there have been a few nights there where it just killed.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 和 actually, there was 一 夜间. I asked my sister, 这 happened. Chappelle just leaves Radio City Hall, shows up 与 his entourage, 和 just hops up on stage. 和 just, 那 only happens in New York City.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I don't think 那 确实 happens in Los Angeles terribly 经常.

TOM SEGURA: He's done 那 quite a few times.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: He just rolls in?

TOM SEGURA: Yeah, he's done 那 in LA a number of times. He's done it in San Francisco a bunch. I'm saying, it's pretty well known. He'll come 进入 the store.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 那's his thing?

TOM SEGURA: Yeah. He loves the stage. 和 sometimes, he'll be up there in legitimately 三 或 four 小时.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, he stayed. 我们 ended up going home 因为 我们 eventually just called it a 夜间 和 我们 were leaving. 和 his team was like, 你're 确实 going to leave? 我们'd had enough. 但 it was just unbelievable to me 那 at 这 stage of his career, 那 he was just going to wander in 和 start doing comedy.

I think it speaks to the intimacy of 那些 small clubs.

TOM SEGURA: It does, yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I mean, it's still 一 of the few venues where 你 可以 see greats. I got to see 你 at the Belly Up in Aspen. 那's a small-ish smallish venue.

TOM SEGURA: 那 was fun, yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 或 你 可以 go to a stadium. What's the largest stadium crowd 你've done? It's 更多 than--

TOM SEGURA: The biggest crowd I did was a little over 17,000 at Climate Pledge Arena in Seattle.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, so huge difference of scale there.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Not many public facing things occupy 那些 水平 of scale. I have a question 关于 cultural standards.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 和 what's 确实 funny. So if 你 look back to comedians at a time where cursing on stage wasn't allowed, pre-Lenny Bruce.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Right? Is any of 那 comedy funny? Meaning, now there's been 这 expansion of what 你 可以 say, even just cursing. 和 so if 我们 look at-- earlier, 我们 were talking 关于 working out. Muscular bodies looked 非常 不同的 in films in the '40s. 你'd say, well, 那 person isn't 非常 big by today's standards. 但 你'd say they're 非常 fit, right. 或 she was 非常 beautiful 和 非常 sexy in the '70s, 但 非常 不同的 look than the '90s 和 2000s.

So standards change 对于 what's considered ideal.

TOM SEGURA: Yes. The male 一, by the way, is hilarious 对于 the leading man of the '40s 和 '50s.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: They were 非常 slender. Now they're like--

TOM SEGURA: I mean not--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: --superheroes.

TOM SEGURA: They'd be slender 和 also not even 非常 well defined. 和 they'd be like, 这 is the stud of the-- 你 know what I mean? Of the movie. A guy who's not wearing a shirt. 和 你're like, 这 guy is not active. 和 你're like, no, 这 is the stud of the movie.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Right. Right.

TOM SEGURA: 那's just a 不同的 time.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Just a 不同的 time, 不同的 standard. 和 then, of course, standards of women's bodies have changed. Sometimes 更多 voluptuous. In the '90s, it was the waif-y look. 和 这些 things mirror what's going on in society to some degree. 但 if 你 listen to comedy pre-Lenny Bruce, pre-swearing, is any of it 确实 funny to 你?

TOM SEGURA: Well, to me, I feel like I 会 probably listen to most of 那 与 那 心智 of-- 因为 what happens 与 comedy, too, is, to be fair to 那些 人们, is 你 end up hearing so many versions of what they did. Things 那 are just derivative of other styles 和 types of jokes 和 types of performances. If I heard 这 guy in 1945 doing 这些 jokes 和 he's killing in 这 room, I 会 go-- I'd probably hear the joke 和 be like, oh yeah, I know 这 joke. I know 10 versions of 那 joke, 因为 I've heard them.

So hearing it just doesn't make me laugh.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Even though it's the original?

TOM SEGURA: Even though it's the original, yeah. 因为 I feel like 那 even happens 与 well-known comedians. I was born in '79. So my exposure, I wasn't 确实 conscious 和 aware of the Pryor era, right. 和 he's like a god in standup.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: He's considered the best comedian ever. By most, it seems.

TOM SEGURA: By a lot of 人们.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: He's on the Mount Rushmore of comedy.

TOM SEGURA: He's definitely on the Mount Rushmore. 但 I felt like by the time 那 I heard Pryor, I had heard so many 人们 那 were influenced by Pryor, 那 hearing the original version wasn't like-- it wasn't like I'm doubled over laughing. I'm hearing every other version. They're clearly inspired 和 taking 从 him.

但 so now I hear the original, 和 I go like, oh, I get 那. 那's the version of 那. 那 可以 happen 与 comedy films, too. It's like 你 watch Animal House. If 你 hadn't seen it 之前 和 你 see it now 和 你've watched a lot of comedies, 你 可能 just go like, oh, I get how 这 is the blueprint. 因为 I've seen so many 人们 take 从 这 那 now when 你 see the original, 你'll be like, oh. 你're like, yeah.

但 你 don't realize 那's the 首先 time it was done. 这些 jokes were done here originally. Everybody took 从 them. So I don't think 那 I 会 probably end up laughing 非常 hard at the pre-Lenny Bruce comic, just 对于 the reason I said, though. Just 因为 it's been done. I've heard so many versions of it.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: So it seems 与 comedy, unlike 与 music 或 poetry 或 books, there isn't 那 much carry forward. So 对于 instance, I mean, I was 非常, 非常 young if-- 和 in some cases, not born when the Rolling Stones were doing their great work, 或 the Beatles, 或 Elvis, right. 但 那 music is awesome.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah, yeah. 那's 不同的.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: The fact 那 many 人们 have taken bits 和 pieces 从 那些. 你 可以't create an amazing Clash song the way the Clash did it. They did it best. 和 it 会 总是 like-- Death 或 Glory 会 be like-- I don't care how many songs were derivatives of 那. 那 song still kills.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 和 so comedy seems 不同的.

TOM SEGURA: I think it's 不同的 in 那 regard. I definitely think it's 不同的. I think 那 it's 一 of 那些 things where it's 总是 shifting. Also what's funny has-- it 确实 is directly related to what's happening in the real time. In the time 你're living in. 你 可以 see whether it's 从 stand up 或 movies, jokes 那 aren't funny, 那 were 非常 funny in 1982, 和 1995, 和 2007, 那 你 go-- it's just shifted, right. It's not funny anymore.

和 I don't just mean 因为 it's not politically correct. I just mean, there's 这 unspoken thing 那 happens, right, where 你're laughing at something 和 then 你 go, hey, 我们 collectively don't find-- 这 is just not funny anymore. So actually, a lot of 那些 things 可能 even strike 你 as not only not great. 你 可能 just be like, 那's not funny at all.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, I once went to 这 thing in San Francisco 大约 New Year's. 和 they literally wheeled out-- is it Henny Youngman 或 Benny Youngman 或 something? He was doing 这些 knock knock jokes 和 he was probably in his late 90s. He was forgetting the punchlines. 但 occasionally he'd nail 一.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: It was not funny.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: It was almost embarrassing. 但 你 were like, wow, 这 guy still thinks it's funny. He's still going. So there was some amusement. 但 你 looked at the older 人们 in the crowd. 和 they were like, oh my god, it's bringing me back.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah, so--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 和 你're like, oh my goodness. 但 no 一 else was laughing.

TOM SEGURA: Right.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 但 as 你're describing, some 人们 可能 look at some comedy-- I'm not going to name names, 因为 I'm not versed enough in comedy-- 但 从 the '70s 或 '80s 和 be like, yeah, 那's just raw. 但 it doesn't 确实 do anything 对于 me.

TOM SEGURA: I'll tell 你, 这 is a 非常 simple example. 但 I 可以 recall 那 20 years ago, if a guy was in a club 和 there was 二 guys sitting there in the front row together 或 whatever, a lot of comments 会 be like, what, are 你 guys a couple? 和 then 那 会 sometimes prompt laughs. 人们 会 laugh. They 会 be like, oh, they're a couple.

和 today, if somebody was like, what, are 你 guys a couple? They'd be like, yeah. 和 everyone 会 be like, OK. Right? It 会 be like--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, yeah.

TOM SEGURA: It was considered, oh, it's funny 你're implying 那 they're romantic couple. 和 I feel just the way society evolves, today, 人们 会 be like, 和?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh, yeah. I mean, growing up, when 你-- I mean, I'm a little bit older than 你 are.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I remember the 首先 gay characters showing up in film 和 reality TV. It was a huge deal.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Right? 和 then so things have 确实 changed. So what is-- yeah, things have 确实 changed.

TOM SEGURA: No 一's ever been funnier than Eddie Murphy, ever. Him in his prime of his being funny, there's just nothing-- he's a total prodigy, once in a lifetime type of talent. Right, so funny. If 你 put Delirious on 对于 a 21-year-old today, they 会 be like, what the fuck is happening? There's things in it 那 are just-- they're just too dated now. 你 know what I mean? Just concepts 那 are-- he's still funny as shit. 但 那些 bits 会 not land like they 会 in '83. They just wouldn't.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Let's talk 关于 the darkness of comedy. I once had the experience of going to the Comedy Cellar 与 some friends. 和 这 guy got up there. I don't remember his name. 和 it was super dark. I mean, it was like clowns 与 vans doing terrible-- I mean, it was just so dark. 和 the only thing 那 was hysterical 关于 it was the fact 那 he seemed freaked out by it, too. What he was saying was horrible.

TOM SEGURA: He was saying horrible--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Horrible things 那 had gone 通过 his 心智.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 但 the fact 那 he thought it was horrible was what was funny.

TOM SEGURA: Sure.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 和 我们're like, whoa. 我们 walked out of there 和 just when-- 我们 felt like 我们'd been transported to someplace 确实 unhealthy. 和 I was like, man, I feel like I need a shower 之后 那. 那 was intense 和 scary. 和--

TOM SEGURA: 这 is my favorite thing, by the way.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Whoa. 和 then 我们 had the experience of running 进入 him 和 his girlfriend later 那 夜间. 和 我们 were like, oh my god. 和 he just took off. He just could not handle the reflection 关于 what had just happened in there.

TOM SEGURA: 确实?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh, yeah. I'm sure he enjoyed the 注意力. He's a performer, so. 但 二 things occur to me 大约 那 example. 一 is a guy who's 确实 dark on stage, seemed like a 非常 loving guy, at least out in public 与 his girlfriend.

TOM SEGURA: Almost 总是 the case.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah. 和 the other 一 is 那 where he took us 和 where he went was so down in the dungeon. I still get a weird feeling in my 身体 thinking 关于 it.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 但 his shock at his own words was absolutely--

TOM SEGURA: Hilarious.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: --hysterical 和 brilliant. 和 it was like, hey, let's go down 进入 the darkness of human nature.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I'm going to show 你 how dark it 确实 is, 和 I'm going to leave. 和 你're just left spinning. 和 it still sits in my 身体. 我们're talking 关于 那 visceral experience. Still sits in my 身体. I don't know what to make of it.

TOM SEGURA: It's incredible, A, 那 首先 of all, 那 he 可以 access it. It's great. If 你're talking 关于 just as the art form, the best thing to do as an artist, any type of artist, is, I think, acknowledge 和 produce 与 the dark thoughts. In other words, don't act like they're not there, 因为 they're in everyone. 和 then put it 进入 你的 art.

In other words, it's, if 你 go, I want to fucking rob a bank, it's better if 你're an artist to channel 那 进入 art, whether 你 write a story 关于 it, 你 paint a painting, 你 write a song. 你 talk 关于, as a comedian, 你的 fantasy of doing it. Then to actually do it. So it's actually 你're channeling it in the healthier option. 和 I also feel like 20 some years of doing 这, dude, the best 人们, as 人们 那 I've ever met, are the darkest comedians on stage. 和 the absolute most terrifying 人们 are the super clean guys.

Yeah, dude. 因为 they don't acknowledge the darkness. The darkness exists in all of us. The Dalai Lama has dark thoughts. It's just--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Jung said 这. I mean--

TOM SEGURA: It's just the way it is.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: It's humans.

TOM SEGURA: It's human beings. Now, some of us have not as present 和 overwhelming dark sides 和 thoughts. 但 there is darkness in everybody. The thing is, I feel like what some of the clean comics do is the lack of acknowledging it means 那 那 darkness has to come out in some other way. It just does. So how does it come out?

Well, it 可能 come out in their personal life. I mean--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah.

TOM SEGURA: I mean, there's 非常 famous cases of, don't curse. 和 then 你're doing some pretty dark things. 那's a real thing, man. 那 hey, I'm going to talk 关于 cookies. 和 where do 你 put 你的 socks? I 可以't find my other sock. 那's 你的 fucking bit? Talking 关于 socks? OK. What are 你 actually 确实 up to?

因为 the thing is, some of 那些 guys, look, I'm not saying they're not funny. There's 非常, 非常 funny, clean comics. Some of 那些 guys are right on the line of, man, if 你 会 just acknowledge some of 这 stuff, it 会 be even funnier. 和 then 你 don't know how 那 darkness is going to show itself, 因为 it's probably going to show itself in a way 那's not so pleasant.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah. I completely agree 与 你. I have a friend who's a 非常, 非常 well known musician. I won't say what genre. 和 what I love 关于 his music is it encompasses every range of emotion.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Every range. 和 I've seen him play to huge crowds 和 just get so pissed. 和 I've seen him do love songs, hate songs, revenge songs. Just everything.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 但 in person, he's the kindest dude ever. I mean, 和 he's so grounded. He 和 his partner are the sweetest 人们. 和 she's got it, too. She's an artist, too. 和 some of her art, 你're like, oh my god. 和 then 你 meet her 和 你're like, 你're so kind, so trustworthy.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: So exactly what 你're describing. They're in touch 与 it. They know how to channel it.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah. I think it's 关于 doing 那. 和 I think some 人们-- look, I think it's also a natural human instinct to not want to acknowledge 或 play 与 the dark thoughts 那 你 have. Right? 你 don't want to sometimes, 因为 你 go, 那's an ugly side 和 I don't want to use 那 对于 my art 或 even acknowledge 那 it's there. 但 I think it's definitely the better way to go, is to actually work 与 it.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: A lot of comics die of drug overdoses. 这些 天 as much, it seems like there's now the healthy comics. 你're 一 of them. 和 I don't know what the numbers are compared to music, like rock musicians 或 something. 但 if I compare to science 或 I compare to law. OK, 一 could say, in law offices, there used to be a lot of drug use, 尤其是 in big cities 和 这 kind of thing, stimulants. 但 let's just 专注 on comedy 对于 the moment.

Do 你 think 那 comedy pulls 从 a group 那 has a larger percentage of 人们 那 are just struggling 与 inner turmoil, 和 they rely on substances to manage? 或 are the substances part of the creative process 对于 人们? Writers, too. I mean, it used to be 那 many writers were drinkers. Have 你 ever wanted a voyage 通过 alcoholism, read 关于 the habits of writers?

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Not all of them, 但 many of them drank a lot.

TOM SEGURA: A lot.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: A lot, a lot.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Amphetamines sometimes. 但 it was like drinking, it was like part 和 parcel 与 the writer's life, sadly. 那's not the case now. 但 yeah, what are 你的 thoughts 关于 substances 和 comedy 和 comics?

TOM SEGURA: I think it's a combination of things. I feel like a lot of comedians, 那 world pulls 从 certainly 人们 与 traumatic backgrounds. There's a lot of 心理健康 issues 与 comedians. There's a lot of clinically depressed comedians. There's comedians 那 come 进入 it 与 severe anxiety, 对于 instance, severe depression. 不同的 心理健康 things. So usually, even outside of comedy, if 你're talking 关于 人们 与 这 type of mindset, 这些 issues, substances come 与 那. 人们 trying to regulate 和 deal 与 那些 issues.

To also throw some 更多 gas on 那, 你're talking 关于 an environment 那 is a nightlife environment where 这些 things are readily available. 和 it 可以 be fun. It 可以 make 你 feel like 你're helping 你的 art form by partaking in 这些 things. 和 then it's 确实 just like, 与 most things, 你 see 那 some 人们 go, oh, it's getting-- right now, it's getting in the way. 和 they acknowledge 那, I'm better off 没有 这. 和 then some 人们 are just too far gone in it, right, where they just-- they're addicts. 我们 have a lot of addicts in comedy. It's just 一 of 那些 factors. 你 see it a lot, 人们 那 are complete hardcore addicts.

So 那, coupled 与 心理健康 things 和 the fact 那 我们're up late 和 我们're 与 人们 那 are also 进入 夜间 life, I think all 那 together, 你 get a lot of substance abuse. A lot.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Why is cynicism so unfunny?

TOM SEGURA: Is it? I mean, I feel like cynicism presented in the right way, a cynical person 可以 be funny. I think the problem 与 cynicism is 那 it's 确实 not-- ultimately, there's nothing hopeful in it. Cynicism takes away any feeling 那 things could get better.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah. Like in the world of improv, the yes/和. I feel like cynicism shuts it down.

TOM SEGURA: Well, 那's true. In the case of-- I'm just saying, some 人们 have 这 cynical take on things 那 are still funny 人们. Yeah, if 你 negate a thought in improv, the whole thing is over. It just dies. If 你're like, it's hot, 和 I'm 寒冷. 你're like, OK. 我们're not 确实 going to do 这, then, huh? 你 have to add to it.

但 那's interesting. Yeah, I mean, if 你're cynical, truly a cynical person-- 因为 I guess the thing 你 find in comedy is there's a lot of faux emotion. The faux angry. 你 know what I mean? 你 put on 这 thing to sell 你的 bit. 那 你 sell an emotion 与 it, too. So somebody 可以 manipulate 那 cynicism 与 humor. 但 I think if 你're genuinely a cynical person, what 你 are 确实 is usually someone 那 actually 人们 don't want to be 大约. The 非常 genuinely cynical person. Another way to describe them is just negative.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, a total buzzkill.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah. So 你 just go, I don't want to be 大约 那. I think ultimately, the best mode to be in 对于 comedy is 你 actually want to be inclusive. I mean, 你're like, right? 你're saying things 那 人们 want to nod along 与. 和 if 你're just like, shit's not going to work out, it 从不 does. No 一's like, 这 is fucking fun, man. 这 is 确实 funny.

So 那 probably has some factor in it. I mean, yeah, 你 learn early on, at least I felt like it, 那 there's 这些 确实 cynical comics. 但 the thing is, I'm not talking 关于 the faux thing in a 表现. They are just like 那. 和 你 可以 feel the 能量 vortex 那 they are. 和 你 go, I got to not be 大约 这 guy.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Right.

TOM SEGURA: 因为 early on 尤其是, 你 rely so much on hope. The fact 那 你 signed up to do 这 thing 那, on paper, it seems insane. 你're going to tell jokes 对于 a living? What, are 你 out of 你的 心智? 那's what 人们 会 say to me. They're like, what, are 你 crazy?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I 会 say it worked out.

TOM SEGURA: I mean, I got 非常 lucky in 那 it worked out.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 和 你 worked 非常 hard. 你 worked extremely hard.

TOM SEGURA: I did work 非常 hard at it. 但 那 is the thing where 你 go, oh, 这 is an insane path to go down. I 可以't have the guy who's next to me who's also a comedian being like, 这 shit, they're 从不 going to pick us. They're 从不 going to-- 这 shit 从不 works out. 你're like, I 可以't have 那 mantra in my head all the time.

和 你 have to part ways 与 那些 人们. 因为 they are like a virus. They're a virus. So yeah, 你're right in observing, it's not funny. I think it's 更多 那 it's not productive to be 大约 truly cynical 人们.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Along the lines of what 我们're calling emotional contagion, I realized, I'm not aware of any duet comics. I know it sounds silly. 但 in every other genre, like 与 music, 人们 play alone, they play 与 a band, they play together. 你 offset voices. I mean, 但 maybe in comedy, stage comedy, 那 is, the audience is the other member of the-- I'm calling it a duet, which sounds so silly, 但 你 get the idea.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 那 they're the 一 那 你're resonating 与 和 那 你're playing off of, 和 they're riding 与 你. 因为 I've had the experience of going to the Comedy Store. I was there last year 和 Tim Dillon did a bit. Well, he went out 对于 20. He came out 对于 20 分钟 和 just murdered. 和 some of 那's in his recent special. Just murdered.

和 he crescendoed the whole crowd. 和 then just like typical Tim, just walked out. 和 你're like, whoa. 和 你 feel like 你 were part of something, even though 你 were a passive recipient of what was going on 或 participant. So maybe 那's where it is. Have there ever been 二 人们 那 get up there 和 riff?

TOM SEGURA: Together?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah.

TOM SEGURA: Oh, yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 和 do it well?

TOM SEGURA: Yeah, there's a couple twins 那 do 那.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: OK.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah. 那's a good observation, 那 it is the audience is the other participant, right. It's 你 和 the-- 但 then the Lucas Brothers 和 the Sklar brothers are-- they're twin brothers, 和 they go up there. 因为 你've probably done something 关于 the twin phenomena. How 这些 guys operate, both of 这些 sets of twins together, it is an experience where 你're like, whoa.

They don't go 总是, setup, punch. The setup sentence 可以 come half out of 一 brother 和 the other. 和 it's seamless. It's like when 你 hang out 与-- 你 ever hang out 与 twins? 和 they 确实 answer in unison, even though they're not looking at each other 和 they're saying the same thing. 那's how 这些 guys work on stage. 和 it gets 你, where 你 have questions afterwards. 你're like, wait a 分钟, did 你 guys-- how did 你 set 那 up? 因为 it's so seamless, 和 they're literally going back, back. Back 和 forth, back 和 forth, back 和 forth.

和 it feels like 你 had to go, hey, when I say 和, make sure 你-- 但 it's another 水平 beyond 那. They 确实 flow. Even their talk over each other feels like it's perfectly done. 你're hearing the end of 这 guy's sentence, the next guy steps on top of it, 但 你 hear him clearly 和 back 和 forth.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I have to check it out.

TOM SEGURA: 那些 guys are like-- it is like a phenomenon to watch them work. It actually is 确实, 确实 cool.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I'm coming to the conclusion 那 by being a audience member in comedy, 一 is experiencing a kind of an empathy 与 what the comic is experiencing. 和 那's where 我们're getting here. I didn't plan 这 out. 但 你 have to feel it. It's got to be real 对于 the comic. The audience 可以 sense 那. The delight, the silliness 那 你're bringing to it. So much of 那 is in the audience's 神经系统 as they're getting it.

和 it's clear to me 那 comedy is the 一 way. I mean, 你 可以 say 这 关于 music, 但 like 你 said, it's so 不同的, 因为 so much of it seems spontaneous.

TOM SEGURA: It does. 和 I also feel like-- my buddy Kirk Fox, he's a great comedian. He 总是 says 这 thing when he's on stage. He's like, I plan on being open, inviting. Hoping to leave the stage a better-- leave the room a better place. 但 这 thing 关于 being open, inviting, vulnerable is-- it's a 非常 real thing. 你 learn it as 你 do it. 你 start off pretty much operating in fear as a standup. Right, 你're terrified. 你're terrified 那 你're not going to do well.

The longer 你 do it, 你 get 更多 comfortable being up there, 你 realize 那 if 你're vulnerable, if 你're willing to be vulnerable, which takes effort 和 some courage, the audience senses 这 on an unspoken 水平 和 会 go 与 你 更多 places 和 会 definitely laugh 更多 和 会 basically be on 你的 side, right. 和 if 你 don't learn to do 那, it's a 不同的 type of 表现.

你're basically going up there 与, I'm the boss. If 你're going up there, I'm telling 你 what's up. They still 可能 laugh at things. 但 they don't leave going, I care 对于 这 guy, 或 I empathize 与 him. 和 if 你 可以 learn to be vulnerable onstage, 你的 performances 会 get exponentially better. 和 honestly, 你'll get way crazier laughs.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: So interesting. The reason I love comedy so much is 那, A, it lets me forget 关于 the outside world.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: While hearing 关于 the outside world. 和 I think stage comedy is 尤其是 powerful. 和 之前 我们 sat down to have 这 conversation, 我们 were talking 关于 how some 人们 think-- they're like, oh, my friend is super funny, way funnier than any of the comics. 但 like a professional athlete 或 a non-professional athlete, in 这 case, 可以 they do it on stage? 可以 they do the dance?

TOM SEGURA: 那's the thing. The main question is-- 因为 sometimes, like I told 你, 人们 会 be like, my friend Greg is hilarious. He's funnier than any of 那些 guys on stage. 和 你're like, I believe 你. 和 你 可能 hang out 与 him 和 be like, 这 dude is hilarious. He's 确实 funny.

The difference is 那, 可以 he be 那 funny when it's just him 与 a microphone in front of 人们 和 take who he is in real life 和 be 那 on stage? 那's ultimately the goal 对于 every comedian. They say 那 the longer 你 do standup, 你的 goal is to be who 你 are offstage, onstage. 因为 it's impossible when 你 start. When 你 start, 你 are funny 与 你的 friends. 和 then 你 get on stage 和 你 freeze.

和 你're trying to convey, 这 is who I am. 因为 what 你're doing is 你're going, 这 is how I see things. 那's what 你的 表现 is. 这 is funny to me. I'm going to tell 你 how I see it, 和 那's why it's funny. Some guys 那 are-- women, I'm saying, just 人们, 那 are 非常, 非常 funny offstage just, they 可以't do 那 to an audience. They're funny to be 大约 in life. 但 they're not performers. I mean, there's an element to it 那 is, 可以 你 get up in front of strangers 和 make them laugh? They don't know 你. 你 have to convey who 你 are in a moment 和 make them laugh. 那's a 不同的 thing.

It's not unlike a guy 那 kills it at the YMCA when 你 play ball. 和 it's like, OK, 但 let's put 你 in an NBA arena. Right, 可以 你 actually play 与 这些 guys? It's a totally 不同的 thing. Look, some 可以. Everybody who ends up being a good standup was super funny to somebody offstage years ago. Right, they just worked at it 和 they were able to translate it. Some 人们 just 可以't translate it.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Do 你 think it helps to 确实 like 人们? As a general group. 你're trying to entertain 人们. 你're trying to be entertained by 你的 own entertainment. Do 你 think 你 need to like humans?

TOM SEGURA: 那's an interesting question. I thought I could answer 那 quicker, 和 I started to think 关于 it. 因为 I started to think 关于 the fact 那 so many comedians I know, so many go, god, I hate 人们 so much.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I mean, I'll frame it a little differently, then. My theory as to 一 of the main reasons why Rogan is the top podcast in the world. There are several reasons, I believe. His work ethic, et cetera. 但 it's 因为 he has lots of 不同的 kinds of friends. 和 he 可以 sit down 与 intellectuals. He 可以 sit down 与 comics. He 可以 sit down 与 criminals, writers.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: He likes the understanding 和 communication 与 不同的 kinds of 人们. 和 when 你 know a little bit 关于 him, his life is filled 与 这些 人们 outside of the studio. So he's 非常 comfortable in the presence of anyone. 你 put anyone in front of him--

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 和 he 可以 be genuinely interested in learning 从 them 和 sharing 与 them.

TOM SEGURA: Just genuinely a curious guy, too.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 你 可以't fabricate 那. 你 可以't manufacture 那.

TOM SEGURA: I agree.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Whereas some podcasters, they're not 那 interested in what other 人们 have to say. So they're not the best interviewers, unless it's someone directly within their genre of interest.

TOM SEGURA: 那's a good observation.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: So as a comic, I guess it depends on the range of topics 那 你 explore in 你的 comedy, perhaps.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah, I don't think 你 可以 hate humanity 和 be a good comedian. Right, I think 对于 sure, 你 have to genuinely love making 人们 laugh. If 你're going to be successful at it, 你 have to have an obsession 与 doing 那. A literal obsession. 因为 你 go 通过 这些 periods on 你的 journey of standup, of being like, hey, I don't have rent money. I 可以't pay 对于 anything.

和 你 have the option. 你 want to go get a job? 和 你're like, no, I'm going to keep doing-- 你're obsessed. 你're obsessed 与 it so much 那 你're giving up things 那 人们 会 otherwise in 你的 position be doing in life, 因为 你 just are so in love 与 writing 和 performing jokes. 你 have an obsession. I do think 你 have to, on some 水平, though, I'm thinking 关于 it, love 人们.

因为 if 你 love making 人们 laugh, 你 enjoy 人们. 因为 so many comics are so bothered by so many things 那 人们 do. 那's a 非常 normal. I'm 非常 much like-- I fucking 可以't stand 这些. 你 know what I mean? 总是 just like, look at 这 dipshit. He's bringing fucking eggs on the plane. 你're just like--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Tuna.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah. 和 he's like, 你 asshole. 你're like, Tupperware on the plane? Eat 那 shit at the gate. So 我们're 总是 like--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Noted.

TOM SEGURA: 你 know what I mean? 你're 总是 just complaining. Complaining is part of being a standup. If 你 从不 complain 关于 anything, 你're probably not funny. 你 know what I mean?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 你 like humanity too much.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah, I feel like if-- here's the thing. If 你 go, I'm good 与 whatever, 你're not a funny person. 你're funny if 你 have a-- 你 either love 或 hate something. 那 可以 be funny. 你 可以 love 这, 和 it 可以 be funny. 你 可以 hate it, 和 那'd be funny. If 你're like, I mean, I'm fine, then 那's not funny.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 和 那 response doesn't do--

TOM SEGURA: It doesn't do anything in standup, yeah. So 但 I think somebody 那 complains 关于 人们 可以 be 非常 funny. 你 just 可以't be like, all 人们 everywhere, I 可以't stand. 那 会 be too extreme.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: There are all sorts of theories 关于 how 人们's childhood issues 或 just their fundamental struggle feeds their art in incredible ways. I think I saw an interview 与 Jim Carrey, who, admittedly, I don't know much 关于 his comedy. I was so busy in school when he was-- 通过 his reign of physical comedy movies. I've 从不 seen Dumb 和 Dumber. I've 从不 seen The Matrix. I've 从不 seen Goonies. Sorry, I just haven't. I love Stand By Me. I love other movies, 但 I need to see 那些 movies. I just-- I'm busy. I'm trying. I want to do--

TOM SEGURA: Last 夜间 at dinner, I just admitted 那 从不 seen Braveheart, 和 I've 从不 seen Gladiator.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh, 那些 are amazing.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah. 和 guess what? I'm not going to see them.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 确实?

TOM SEGURA: No.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: All right.

TOM SEGURA: I'm just not. I'm not going to see them.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, clearly just knowing a little bit 关于 你的 children 和 the fact 那 they're related to 你, I'm not going to try 和 push 你 to do anything. 因为 clearly, 你 guys are stubborn.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: So the question I have 之后 seeing 这 Jim Carrey thing, he said, the reason he did comedy is he wanted to make 人们 laugh, to forget 关于 their struggles. He had a chronically ill mother. 和 he used to throw himself down the stairs as a kid. I believe him. So physical comedy became his thing. Do 你 think 那 确实 successful comedians tap 进入 a fundamental quest to resolve something?

你're trying to, whatever it is, fill in the blank. I don't want to fill in blanks 对于 你.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah, yeah. No. I mean, I 可以 speak 对于 myself. I think in my own case, I was the new kid a lot. Right, I went to 一 school 对于 首先 grade, 一 对于 秒 和 third. A 不同的 一 对于 fourth, a 不同的 一 对于 fifth 和 sixth, a 不同的 一 对于 seventh 和 eighth, a 不同的 一 对于 ninth. 和 I switched again in ninth grade. So I was a new kid all 那些 times.

和 I felt like whenever I arrived 和 I over time go-- 你 start to develop 这 肌肉 对于, how am I going to get someone to me? 和 it was like, try to make them laugh, right. 那 became a thing. I was trying to make them laugh. I think 对于 me personally, there was also 这-- just my own insecurities. I think I felt like if I got enough 人们 to laugh, if I became successful at making 人们 laugh 和 人们 acknowledged it, 那 I 会 no longer feel 这些 insecurities.

和 it doesn't happen. They stick 与 你.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 和 thank goodness, 因为 it sounds like it's the fuel 对于 你的 art.

TOM SEGURA: I think it probably is. I mean, I just remember thinking if I were to be-- had a special 和 I got paid well, then I wouldn't have any self-doubts anymore. I mean, 你 think 那. Then I'll feel fulfilled. 和 then 你 get the thing 和 你're like, yeah, no, it's the same. It didn't go.

I mean, 你 start to address it in other ways, 因为 你 just realize 那 the accomplishment 或 whatever isn't the answer to 那 thing. 但 it is a thing 那 makes 你-- 你 think 那 it 会 make 你 feel complete. Right, 和 it's not the case. 和 I do think 那 being a new kid a lot is something 那 I'll probably 从不 shake 那 memory, of just-- when 你're a kid, 你的 social acceptance is so dominating. It's 不同的 as 你 get older. I think 你're not so concerned 与 being socially accepted everywhere. 和 你 have a family 和 你're just like, 这 is my group.

但 as a kid, it's everything. 和 being new every time every new school year is like-- yeah, it's traumatizing. Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: So it's the friction 那 creates the spark.

TOM SEGURA: I think so.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 和 so 你 don't want to do too much therapy 和 resolve it.

TOM SEGURA: I mean--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Seriously speaking.

TOM SEGURA: I mean, I've done so much.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, same. It doesn't ever go away.

TOM SEGURA: It helps in 那 你 have certain awareness of things now. Certain dots get connected. I think therapy is phenomenal. I 会 not have traded any of the therapy 那 I had. I'm a huge advocate 对于 it. I think it's great. 你 don't go same thing. Like, now I'm done. Everything's fine. It doesn't work like 那.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 但 it's like taking Jordan's competitive nature away. 你 wouldn't want 那.

TOM SEGURA: No.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 那 was the friction 那 created the--

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: --the phenomenon 那 is Jordan.

TOM SEGURA: A lot of comedians-- I spoke of myself. 但 I think a lot of us fall under the banner of, to put it simply, please like me. 你 know what I mean? 你 just go, please like me. I want 你 to like me. 因为 那's what 你 are when 你're a new kid, 和 那's what 你 are when 你 walk 进入 a room. 和 你 just go, I just want 人们 to like me.

和 a lot of comics 可能 not admit it like 那. 但 it's definitely the case. 你 want to be liked. It sounds pathetic, I think. 但 it's true.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: No, I don't think it sounds pathetic. It sounds incredibly open 和 honest. 和 I think it's going to be 非常 helpful 对于 人们 who seek to be comedians. 和 just 对于 人们 generally trying to think 关于 how their challenge, 那 inner friction, 可以 create amazing things.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 和 你've managed to do it over 和 over again. So maybe--

TOM SEGURA: 你 almost got me to cry. 我们 talked 关于 it. 你 almost got me to cry.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I 可以 keep going.

TOM SEGURA: No, no, no. Keep changing the topic.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: What's happening now? What's next?

TOM SEGURA: Well, I know 人们 use 这 expression, 但 it 确实, truly was a dream come true to make the series. 对于 real. I made no secret 关于 it 那 the reason I moved to LA was not to be a standup comedian. It was to make movies 和 stuff. 那's what I wanted to do. So getting the opportunity to make the show, it felt like I got paid to make 15 mini movies 对于 the series.

和 I mean, I've 从不 had a 更多 fulfilling creative experience. 从 writing to producing it to being in the edits 和 seeing 这 thing come together. So 对于 me, it's such a thrill to have 那 experience. 和 to be able to put 那 out as something 那 I made 与 a bunch of great 人们. The difference in standup is 你're alone. 和 on a show 或 a movie, 你're 与 100 other 人们.

和 it was an awesome experience. 和 I get to do some 更多 of it. So I get to do a movie 这 summer. 和 another show I got asked to develop. So, I mean, I'm over the moon 那 I get to do 这些 things. It's like I get to do them 20 years 之后 I thought I 会 do them. 但 I'm super grateful to have the experience.

So yeah, I'm most excited 那 I get to keep pursuing 那, 因为 I feel like it's been in my head 这 whole time. 和 now I actually get to act on it.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, listen, I'm so grateful 那 你 came here to share 与 us 关于 你的 process. I mean, 我们 talked 关于 the art 和 science of comedy 和 humor.

TOM SEGURA: I hope it was good, man. I loved it.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: It was excellent. 因为 你 share so openly. 和 你 pull back the curtain on 你的 process 和 comedy in general. 和 I love what a deep thinker 你 are. 和 at the same time, how much 你 just pour yourself 进入 你的 craft 和 enjoy it.

TOM SEGURA: Thanks.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 和 你的 reflections are 确实 appreciated. 和 I'm a fan. I'm also proud to have 你 as a cousin. 和 look, I look to 你 as somebody who 确实 understands how to also balance work 和 family 和 merge the insanity of life 进入 a craft. I 可以 just say, I speak 对于 many, many 人们 非常 confidently on 这. 人们 可以 确实 feel 你的 benevolence, even when 你're pointing out the darkness 和 the ridiculousness of the human experience.

So 你 make 我们的 lives better. 和 I'm so grateful 你 came out here.

TOM SEGURA: Well, 那's 非常 kind of 你. 和 also, I 应该 say, I'm-- I don't know if enough 人们 tell 你, 但 I'm also 非常 honestly proud of 你 对于 what 你've done. 和 being a teacher is 一 thing, 但 being able to teach so many 人们 和 share. I 总是 feel like the most generous person is the person who doesn't hoard information. It's a natural human instinct 对于 人们 to have information 关于 something, 和 they just go, I'll keep 这 to myself.

和 so the fact 那 你 share, 你 teach so much I pick up things 从 你 all the time. 和 so many 人们 do. 和 then it's become 这 thing where now 人们 are like, what, are 你 fucking listening to Huberman? 和 你're like, actually, yeah, I am. My wife's like, what, did Huberman tell 你 to fucking take a shit right now? I'm like, yes. No, 但 I mean, it is great 那 你 don't hoard information. 你 share it. 和 I think it helps a lot of 人们.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Thank 你. It's a labor of love. 和 对于 人们 那 know me as 你 do, 那's the same on camera 和 off camera. So 你're a great role model to me. I'd love to have 你 back to continue the conversation.

TOM SEGURA: I 会 love to. 我们'll do a five-小时 一 next time.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah. 和 I'm going to finish the rest of Bad Thoughts.

TOM SEGURA: Please do.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: It's amazing.

TOM SEGURA: Yeah, thanks so much.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: All right, Tom. Thanks so much.

Thank 你 对于 joining me 对于 today's discussion 与 Tom Segura. To find links to Tom's work, please see the show note captions. I 应该 point out 那 Bad Thoughts is not suitable 对于 children. If 你're learning 从 和/或 enjoying 这 podcast, please subscribe to 我们的 YouTube channel. 那's a terrific zero cost way to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify 和 Apple. 和 on both Spotify 和 Apple, 你 可以 leave us up to a five star review. 和 你 可以 now leave us comments at both Spotify 和 Apple.

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