DAVID SENRA: Daniel Ek, Spotify
DAVID SENRA: Daniel Ek, Spotify
嘉宾：Daniel Ek
全文文稿 · 按对话顺序保留完整内容，深入理解上下文。
§01文稿——第1部分
I'm Andrew Huberman, 和 I'm a professor of 神经生物学 和 ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
Today, I'm excited to share the launch of a new podcast 那 I've helped create 和 produce.
这 new podcast is hosted by David Senra.
对于 那些 of 你 not familiar 与 David Senra, he is the expert in all things greatness.
He 研究 greatness, 和 he understands it, mostly in the domain of business,
但 also creatives, athletes, 和 other world-class performers.
In 这 new show, David sits down 与 the best of the best business founders 和 extreme winners to understand their drive, their process of creation, how they overcome failures, their lessons in leadership, 和 other tools 对于 achieving success.
这 首先 episode of the podcast is 与 Daniel Ek, the founder of Spotify.
It's an absolutely spectacular conversation 那 I'm certain 你'll enjoy.
If 你'd like to listen to future episodes of 这 new podcast, please be sure to subscribe to it.
It's simply called David Senra, 和 links to it are in the show notes 对于 这 episode.
Again, the podcast is called David Senra.
Episode 二 of David Senra 会 be 与 the founder of Dell Technologies, Michael Dell.
So again, make sure to subscribe wherever 你're listening now.
和 now, episode 一 of David Senra 与 the founder of Spotify, Daniel Ek.
So I want to consider 这 conversation like a continuation of the conversation 我们 had last year in New York.
it was by far the most impactful conversation I had the entire year.
It is in large part the reason 我们're sitting down 和 actually recording 这 conversation.
和 what I loved was I thought 关于 how the advice 你 gave 和 the stories 你 told
确实 fundamentally changed my approach to my work 和 then also like my philosophy of how I'm living my life.
和 因为 你, it's 非常 rare, like 这 year I'm going to hit over 400 biographies read 对于 the podcast, right?
和 somebody asked me recently, it's like, do 你 ever uncover new ideas?
It's like, no, I feel like I'm telling the same story, the same personality type over 和 over 和 over again.
和 你'll get a new idea 或 a novel idea every once in a while, 但 certainly not all the time.
但 你 shared something at the dinner 那 was a truly novel idea.
和 then a few months later, I read 这 interview.
和 I was like, oh, I'm not the only 一 那 Daniel's advice changed the career.
So I'm going to read something.
There was an interview given by the CEO of Uber, who's a friend of yours, Dara.
Yeah. 和 I'm going to read 这 excerpt, which was absolutely perfect. 和 he was talking 关于 contemplating, 应该 I take 这 job 或 not? Like, 这 is a huge opportunity, 但 also like kind of scary. 和 这 is tied to 你的 idea 那 你 应该 optimize 对于 impact over happiness. I haven't heard anybody else articulate 那.
和 so Dara says, I was reading 关于 all the issues happening 与 Uber in the news, the various challenges 那 were coming up there.
So when I 首先 got the call to be the CEO, I said, heck no, I'm not crazy.
I'm not up 对于 这.
但 I had 一 particular conversation 那 确实 shifted me, which was 与 Daniel Ek, who's a good friend.
和 I still remember I was talking to him 关于 my career at Expedia 和 how happy I was.
和 he looks at me, 和 he did 这 to me too.
和 he looks at me 和 he goes, since when is life 关于 happiness?
It's 关于 impact.
你 可以 have an impact on Uber, which is a 确实 重要 company in the world 那's shaping the future of cities.
和 I thought to myself, my God, 这 is so obvious.
I've got to take a shot.
I knew it was going to be uncomfortable.
可以 你 just explain how 你 think 关于 optimizing 对于 impact over happiness 和 why?
Well, 首先 off, it's incredibly kind of Dara to say 那.
你 know, I think 关于 这.
I think happiness is a trailing indicator of impact.
和 I think 你 可以 be, 你 know, 你 可以 feel happiness in small bursts, in small moments, 和 你 可以 have a lot of variance in 你的 life.
So 你 可以 choose to have 那 part, which is the ups, the downs of life, et cetera.
So I'm not saying 你 可以't have happiness, 但 I think truly sustained happiness comes 从 impact.
和 impact is something 那's deeply personal to 你.
Only 你 可以 define what impact means 对于 你.
So I think it means 不同的 things 对于 不同的 人们.
但 I do think it's a trailing indicator.
So the way I 会 put it in 这 case is, 你 know, what was obvious 对于 me 与 someone like Dara was he was content.
He wasn't happy.
和, 你 know, he had gone 通过 a phase knowing him 对于 a while where he had a lot of ups 和 downs 与 Expedia 和 all 那 stuff.
和 he kind of mostly figured it out. 和 so he was content. 和 I think 那 in his case, 你 know, where he was at his life, it was such an obvious thing 那 he didn't even realize 那 he'd just grown content.
和 so 对于 me, 你 know, Uber is a 非常 special company.
和 to even be asked to be the CEO of 那 和 the impact I knew he could have on 那 company just felt to me like an obvious thing.
和 so I sort of advised him to, hey, 你 应该 go 对于 这.
和 那's a far greater thing.
和 那's going to be far, 会 lead to much 更多 happiness, not just 对于 你, 但 also 对于 other 人们.
Did somebody do 那 对于 你?
Did somebody tell 你 to optimize 对于 impact over happiness?
或 is 这 just the way 你 work?
I think I self-motivate myself 那 way.
Okay.
To do the hard things.
你 know, like many other 人们, I'm quite lazy by nature.
I try to take the simple road out 经常 enough.
但 what I've learned 那 has given me the greatest joys is overcoming the biggest adversities.
和 overcoming the biggest adversities usually has been solving a problem of some kind 对于 someone 或 something 那 no 一 else had been able to figure out.
和 对于 me, 那's my definition of impact.
和 it's not right there at the moment 那 I feel 那.
Actually, in many cases, I feel it much longer, 但 it's when I go back 和 I reflect on accomplishments 或 moments of impact, then I feel true happiness.
和 so I've just grown to kind of like self-motivate myself constantly.
和 I think 这, by the way, kind of comes 从 like a much deeper thing, right?
Like I came 从 like pretty much what was the project in Sweden 和 I was not the normal kid.
你 know, I was kind of probably a middle of the pack kind of kid, 但 I certainly stood out.
I didn't belong to any social group.
There was no social cohesion, etc.
So 你 felt like an outsider even at 那 age?
Oh, yeah.
你 still today?
Yeah.
Every moment of my life, even among other fellow entrepreneurs, I sometimes feel like an outsider.
因为 like right now, 对于 instance, 你 和 I were in Silicon Valley.
I'm not American.
So there's an element of myself where I don't belong to the club.
和 I've 总是 felt 那 way.
和 因为 I've 总是 felt 那 way, I've had to – I 可以't take lessons 从 other 人们 100% 因为 some of my story, some of my conditions, some of the ways, the structures, even how to structure a company.
你 have to structure differently if 你're a European company versus an American company.
So 你 have to go back to sort of 首先 principles 和 kind of find 这 sort of principled answer to anything 和 what works 对于 你.
和 so I've had to kind of self-motivate myself 对于 most of my life.
和 only, I 会 say, in the last maybe five years, I've come to realize 那, 你 know, in a way, I may be a better coach than I am a player.
和 so I've kind of understood 更多 和 更多 那 actually 那 sort of drive, 那 intensity is actually something 那 可以 be taught.
It's not entirely innate.
和 it's 关于 almost letting 人们 know 那 那's okay.
和 so much of 那 comes 从 那些 types of conversations.
It's 关于 almost reflecting back.
It's not 关于 sort of me projecting onto other 人们 what I think they 应该 do.
但 in listening to Dara, it was just so obvious to me when he kind of explained 因为, 你 know, the conversation started 与 us talking 关于 Uber.
和 I said, I recommended 你 to the job.
和 he said, oh, 确实?
Yeah, I just didn't take the call even.
和 I was like, well, why not?
和 he was like, well, I'm 确实 happy 关于 这 thing.
和 I was like listening 和 I actually just let him keep talking.
和 the 更多 he spoke, the 更多 obvious it became.
He was content.
He was running on the downshifted down to the easy gear.
Life was good.
It was 确实 easy.
但 there was an element of him, 和 你 could hear it in his voice, where he's sort of like, okay, well, 你 know, 你've 总是 been running on a higher gear.
Do 你 want to, 你 know, gear up even 更多 to an extreme 水平?
Why aren't 你 going to go 对于 greatness?
Why aren't 你 going to test yourself?
因为 if 你 succeed, 这 could be huge.
和 你 确实 don't get many of 这些 chances in 你的 life.
和 so much of the conversation was 确实 大约 那.
但 与 another person,
I 可能've given a totally 不同的 piece of advice.
So I don't think it's a universal truth,
但 I do think the universal truth
is 那 happiness trails impact.
但 impact is something 那's highly unique.
It could be something innate in 你.
It could be having impact on other 人们.
It could be having impact
by being a great father 大约 你的 kids.
I don't pretend to know 那 I think 那 there's 一 game to play 或 一 universal truth to life.
I certainly believe 从 entrepreneurial types 那 probably 更多 to myself, 更多 like myself, 那, 你 know, 这 is sort of a 一 of 那些 sort of key things is 确实 consider impact.
一 of the things I admire most 关于 Daniel Ek is his relentless dedication to improving his craft 和 to improving his product.
It's a mission 那 he's still on nearly 二 decades later.
It'd be impossible to argue 那 Spotify isn't 一 of the most well-crafted products ever created.
和 Daniel 和 his team's dedication to constantly improving their product reminds me a lot of my friend Karim, who's the co-founder 和 CTO of Ramp.
Karim is 一 of the greatest technical minds working in finance.
I spend a lot of time talking to Karim, 和 every single conversation centers 大约 his obsession 与 crafting a high-quality product 和 using the latest technology to constantly create better experiences 对于 his customers.
Karim 和 Daniel both believe 那 nothing is ever good enough 和 那 everything 可以 总是 be 改善了.
Karim is running 一 of the most talented technical teams in finance,
和 they use rapid, relentless iteration to make their product better every 天.
So far 这 year, Ramp has shipped over 300 new features.
Ramp is completely committed to using AI to make a better experience 对于 their customers
和 automate as much of 你的 business's finances as 可能.
In fact, Karim just wrote 这.
AI is all I think 关于 这些 天.
It is 我们的 duty to be 首先 movers 和 push limits so 我们 可以 make the greatest 可能 product experience 对于 我们的 customers.
Ramp uses a combination of craftsmanship 和 rapid iteration to invent new products 对于 their customers.
Many of the fastest growing 和 most innovative companies in the world are running their business on Ramp.
Make sure 你 go to ramp.com to learn how they 可以 help 你的 business save time 和 money.
Let AI chase 你的 receipts 和 close 你的 books
so 你 可以 use 你的 time 和 能量
building great things 对于 你的 customers.
因为 at the end of the 天,
那 is what 这 is all 关于,
building a product 或 service
那 makes someone else's life better.
那 is what I'm trying to do.
那 is what Daniel Ek has dedicated his life to doing.
和 那 is what Ramp has done too.
Get started today by going to ramp.com.
你 mentioned 你 thought
some 人们 don't go 对于 impact 因为 they're content.
When was the last time?
Like 你're definitely not content now.
Right.
So I've gotten to know 你 once.
我们've talked 对于 小时 和 小时 和 小时.
和 这 is why I wanted 你 to be the 首先 person I had 这 conversation 与.
和 I was curious if 你 could say 那.
I was like, no, no, I know 你 have 这 like inner burning desire 和 fire inside of 你, which is to me, 你的 outside is like 你're 非常 calm.
你're 非常 articulate 和 你're 非常 polite.
但 你 have 那 like the same thing I read in 这些 books all the time.
It's just like 这 person had a burning desire to achieve mission success is the way I think 关于 it.
Yeah.
Were 你 content 之后 你 sold 你的 首先 company?
你 were like 22, 23.
Well, content is the right word.
I wasn't happy.
So I was content 对于 a moment of time.
I was 22.
I 从不 had much success 与 women 因为 I was a computer geek.
和 back then, computers was not the coolest thing in the world.
和, 你 know, so I was like, okay, well, now I've got all 这 money.
和, 你 know, 这 was my worldview.
I 可以 go out in nightclubs 和 I'm going to be the cool guy.
和 I had fun 对于 a while, I'll tell 你 那.
但 it also was incredibly hollowing 因为, 你 know, I realized 那 这些 girls weren't 与 me 因为 of me.
They were 与 me 因为, 你 know, I had status.
和 I was able to use money to buy status 和 be a cool guy 对于 a small moment of time.
和 so 那 taught me a lot, right?
和 actually, 你 know, I kind of walked away 对于 over a year not doing anything at all 和 just sort of deeply reflecting on life, what I wanted to do.
因为 对于 me, 你 know, I had a magic number, which was 10 million.
If I got 那 number, I 会 retire.
那 was the goal.
和 I was thinking to myself.
How old were 你 when 你 came up 与 那 number?
Probably 15.
Okay.
你 know, someone gave me like 这 book, Rich Dad, Poor Dad, I think.
§02Transcript — part 2
I read it.
I think everybody gets it the same age.
Yeah.
I read it.
It was like 确实 seminal 对于 me.
So I kind of made 那 number.
I figured to myself I worked 确实 hard.
I could get there when I was 40.
I was 22 when I got there.
和 so 那 wasn't 确实 part of the plan, right?
和 so I kind of like, okay, well, what's next?
What am I going to do?
因为 I didn't have to work 对于 money.
Were 你 depressed when 你 don't have 你的 company?
anymore 你 sold it 你 have the number 你 thought it was going to take 你 to 你 know
till four decades to reach 你 reach it now 你're going to the clubs 你're realizing 这些 人们
aren't my friends they don't care 关于 me at all yeah i'm there's no impact i'm making on the world
i'm just consuming i'm not producing anything 这 is something i talk 关于 all the time like i think
我们've sometimes 我们 have a sick culture where like 人们 尤其是 on social media they glorify like
consumption it's like i don't care i don't care what 你 consume i care what 你 produce 你 应该
be proud not 那 你 可以 have money to buy an expensive thing what did 你 make 因为 the way
I think 关于 这 all the time, which is 总是 fascinating, how many times 这 comes up in the biographies.
和 对于 hundreds of years, 人们 constantly think like, oh, 我们've reached the end.
There's no 更多 opportunity.
和 every single time, humans keep saying, it's like, 我们 可以't, 这 is going to be the last company.
这 is going to be the last technological shift.
这 is going to be the last invention.
和 the best description of a business I've ever heard came 从 Richard Branson.
和 he said, all a business is an idea 那 makes somebody else's life better.
和 if 你 look at it like 那, it's like then 你 have infinite possibilities 和 opportunities all the time.
因为 there's infinite small 和 large ways to make other 人们's lives better.
你 weren't at 那 time making anybody else's life better.
你 were just kind of consuming.
Like, 会 你 consider yourself depressed?
What 会 你 consider yourself?
Yeah, it's probably the most depressed I've been in my life, to be honest,
因为, 你 know, I knew 从 a 非常 young age what I wanted to do.
和 it was unlike most other 人们 那 I grew up 与.
I just knew I wanted to build things.
你 were doing 那 when 你 were like 14, right?
Yeah, 但 it started like even earlier than 那.
I just didn't know it was called a company.
I had no idea what finances were 或 VC 或 any of 这些 things.
但 I was just building things.
和 I knew I loved computers.
和 I knew I wanted to do 那.
和 I knew I 会 make a living doing 那 somehow.
这 is another thing 那 drives me insane 因为 I hear other 人们's advice to entrepreneurs, which I hate.
I think it's terrible.
我们 shouldn't have an entrepreneurial ecosystem, 尤其是 因为 most of the media 那 entrepreneurs are consuming are actually 从 investors.
和 你 have wildly 不同的 incentive structure 和 everything else.
和 it just conflicts 与 a lot of stuff 那's in the biographies.
和 I'll just go 与 那些 guys 或 anybody else, right?
和 they're 总是 just like, yeah, 你 know, my belief is something 那 I repeat.
over 和 over again, 这 maxim, 那 belief comes 之前 ability.
It's in 这些 stories every single time 你 have somebody.
Like I just reread the biography, the autobiography of the founder of Sony.
Akio at the time was, 我们're going to start 这 company in 1946.
In Tokyo 那's occupied by the Americans 那 is completely, has been firebombed.
Right? He's passing, he's going to work, 和 he's passing just burnt-out rubble, millions of homes of Japanese.
更多 than half the population has left the city.
They start what turns out to be Sony, which is 一 of the most successful 和 influential companies of all time, in a burned-out department store.
一 of my favorite anecdotes in the book is they need to have umbrellas on their desks 因为 when it rains, it comes 通过 the roof.
Oh, wow.
和 yet in his book, he says, I don't have a problem saying, even then, I knew I had potential 和 I could be great 和 I could do great things.
He had the belief 之前 the ability.
你 said, I don't even know it was called entrepreneurship.
和 I'm starting to build things.
和 这 is the question I have 对于 你.
When did 你 know 你 were good?
I don't know 那 I'm good.
I know I'm 不同的.
和 the – 但 I have 这 sort of insane belief 那 I 可以 get good if I try hard enough.
和 I still feel 那 way, by the way, like 因为 the comparative sets has changed, right?
Like, 你 know, it was 从 everyone in my school maybe in the early 天 to everyone in Stockholm somewhat later to everyone in Europe at some point.
和 now it's like the most brilliant entrepreneurs of 我们的 time 那 I'm constantly comparing myself to.
和 obviously, I don't believe 那 I'm as good as them.
但 I believe I am slightly 不同的 than them in some ways.
和 I believe 那 if I work 确实, 确实 hard on something, I 可以 make something 确实 great.
和 那's the sort of bar 那 I keep 对于 myself.
和 对于 me, it 确实 stems also 从 sort of 这 notion back to what 你 were talking 关于, 关于 sort of the realization 那 通过 computers, right?
Steve Jobs has the saying, it's the bicycle of 我们的 心智, which was 确实 how I felt 关于 computers like growing up.
It's just 这 magic tool 那 allows me to solve so many other things 和 create things.
那's how I feel 关于 podcasts.
Yeah.
Yeah. 和 so, 你 know, I knew I wanted to do 那. 和 I also knew 那, 你 know, my co-founder, Martin, he has 这 thing he keeps saying, the value of a company is the sum of all problems solved.
和 so what I keep doing is 本质上 I've got 这 toolbox called a computer, 和 I got all 这些 problems 大约 the world.
Which problems am I passionate 关于 solving?
和 which problems 可以 I spend the next decade of my life fixing?
因为 if I'm not interested enough in it to spend a decade fixing it, it's probably not worth pursuing.
这 is like something I'm super passionate 关于 因为, 你 know, if 你 确实 think 关于 like they don't write biographies 关于 人们 那 like start, scale, sell a company 和 do it 对于 like five years.
I'm not interested in 那.
I'm not interested in 你的 startup.
I'm interested in 你的 last company.
I'm interested in something 你're going to do 对于 the rest of 你的 life.
和 这 is what I draw inspiration off of.
It's just like going back to what 你 said earlier 关于 impact 和 contentment 和 how like 你're willing to go 进入 an area where it's like, 你 know, it's difficult.
I love what Jeff Bezos said on 这.
He used to tell 人们 in Amazon at the 非常 beginning, he's like, 我们're trying to build something 那 我们 可以 be proud of, something 那 我们 可以 tell 我们的 grandkids 关于.
Anything 那 你're going to be proud to tell 你的 grandkids 关于 is not going to be easy.
So 我们're going 进入 这 与, 你 know, he gave himself like a 30% chance of success.
I think at the beginning of Spotify,
你 know, 你're guys like, hey, 我们're going to, I 可能 have to get a job 之后 这, 但 I have to do 这.
Yeah.
Like it is inside of me.
Yeah.
There's a bunch of 人们 那 say the reason they joined Spotify in the early 天 is 因为 Daniel 会 teach us 和 tell us 那 he's building 对于 the long term.
Yeah.
So there had to be acquisition offers early on.
Sure.
和 did 你 ever consider them?
Well, I considered them, 但 not 对于 money.
I considered them 因为 I already had the money 那 I thought I needed in my life, right?
和 那 was an incredibly powerful position to be in.
It was freeing me of a lot of constraints.
和 对于 me, it was 更多, 你 know, as 我们 got approached, it was 总是 关于 可以 这 thing further 我们的 mission?
和 if I truly believed 那 there 会 have been a company 那 could further 我们的 mission 和 cared 关于 what 我们 cared 关于 as much as 我们 did, I probably 会 have sold.
但 I 从不 found 那.
和 因为 I didn't find 那, 我们 just kept going.
和 it wasn't obvious to me 那 这 会 be like something I 会 do 对于 20 years.
I'll tell 你 那.
但 what I did know is 那 I came 从 doing lots of projects beforehand.
和 so sort of – 我们 talked 关于 the 一 company I did sell, 但 那 was like my fourth 或 fifth 一.
So I'd been doing a bunch of other things, 和 I was doing many things in parallel.
Which 你 still do today.
Well, I started doing again, which is a 非常 不同的 thing.
和 I still think the jury's out, by the way, on whether 那's a good idea 或 a bad idea.
Explain.
Well, again, I do believe 那 focusing all 你的 time 和 effort on 这 一 thing 和 obsess 关于 it,
和 almost to the point where 你're not even aware of the rest of the world 那 goes on, is what creates greatness.
和 I know 你 可以 relate to 这, 但 那's how Spotify came to be.
I literally couldn't care 关于 anything else 对于, at the 非常 least, the 首先 15 years.
和 only now am I foolish enough to believe 那 actually, 你 know what, I 可能 be able to do multiple things at the same time again, which was sort of my spirit in my 20s.
Is 那 connected to what 你 were saying earlier 那 你 可能 be a better, 你 think 你 可能 be a better coach than player?
Yeah, I certainly think so. 和 因为 my leadership style is so 不同的 than many of 这些 sort of entrepreneurs 那 most of us sort of look up to 和 hail, whether it's the Steve Jobses 或 Elon Musks, etc.
但 I just don't feel like there's a vague resemblance 与 them, 但 it's just not me.
It's like I'm a 非常 不同的 archetype of entrepreneur.
我们 were texting back 和 forth 关于 这, so 我们 应该 just talk 关于 这 now so 我们 don't forget.
我们 were talking 关于 like maybe 我们 应该 talk 关于 like the archetypes, 不同的 archetypes of entrepreneurs 因为 like there could be, 你 know, there could be somebody like a young – there's undoubtedly a young Daniel Ek out there, right?
我们 just know 那 那's going to happen.
There's 这 great thing.
I'm slightly obsessed 与 Michael Jordan.
Uh, he's the, he's the, the lock screen on my phone.
He's my contact card.
So when 人们 like, they start texting me, it's like Michael Jordan 与 his eyes like
这, like I'm kind of setting the tone.
Yeah.
和 he said 这 great thing 因为, 你 know, at the end of his career is the rise
of Kobe Bryant.
Yeah.
和 everybody's at, towards the end of his career, they were like obsessed.
Like, oh, Tracy McGrady is going to be the next Michael Jordan.
和 这 guy's going to be the next Michael Jordan.
这 guy's next Michael Jordan.
和 he's like, 首先, he's like, uh, 你 don't have to worry 关于 finding the next
Michael Jordan.
He goes, 首先 of all, 你 didn't find me.
I just happened to come along.
Yeah.
和 那 会 happen again.
你 don't have to find the next person.
They 会 come along.
和 I 总是 say they 会 reveal themselves.
Yep.
So I do think 这 is fascinating 和 no 一 else talks 关于 这.
Again, the weird thing 关于 talking to 你, 和 I don't mean 那 in a pejorative, it's like 你 just say stuff 那 no 一 else says.
和 then I'm like, why don't 更多 人们 understand, like know 关于 Daniel's 非常 unique ideas?
Like no 一's concerned 关于 the archetypes.
I was like, oh, 你 just have to be like Steve Jobs.
你 just have to be like Elon.
Yeah.
和 你的 point is like, no, there's like multiple 不同的 archetypes.
Obviously, like I've studied 这 maybe 更多 than anybody else in the world.
It's 非常 clear 那 there are.
和 yet they're all kind of like narrowly focused on 这 is the 一 path.
和 me 和 你 went over 这 back 和 forth 之前.
It's just like it's so ridiculous to say like 这 is the way founders 应该 run their company 因为 你 said it back in 2021 in 那 series.
和 Spotify, 我们've had conversations like 这.
这 is something I 总是 say.
It's like it's tied to the personality of the founder.
100%.
The advice is fucking useless unless it's tied to who 你 are as a person.
Spotify is a reflection of 你.
Now, I do want to talk also 关于 这 other great idea 那 你 gave me.
和 then I heard Jeff Bezos echo recently 关于 the fact 那 there's similarities between like the way 你的 child develops 和 the way a company develops.
那 was 非常 fascinating.
Yeah.
但 where are 你 like explain why 你 会 even want to broach the subject of like talking 更多 关于 the 不同的 founder archetypes?
Well, I think, 你 know, again, as a young entrepreneur myself, I went 通过 the book like so many of us by becoming enamored by an entrepreneur 和 looking up to them in many cases 因为 they had traits 那 I didn't have.
和 so 我们 read all 这些 stories, whether it's biographies 或 articles 关于 how they manage their company 和 how they live their lives 和 the routines 那 they have.
和 certainly in my case, like, 你 know, I certainly tried to mimic Steve Jobs. I certainly tried to mimic Bezos 和 Gates 和 all of the great ones, 你 know, the 非常 charismatic ones like Howard Schultz of Starbucks.
和, 你 know, I've learned 从 all of them. 和 in a way, I've tried to imitate them, right? 因为 I thought 那 they were so great at what they do. 但 every single time I've walked away being disillusioned, 因为 I realized, obviously, 那 it didn't work 对于 me.
和 um so 这 这 sort of idea of 这 archetype um is like i bet 你 那 there's plenty of
um entrepreneurs out there 那 uh read 关于 currently uh whether it's mark zuckerberg 或
jensen 或 any of 这些 things 和 they're like 那's not me so i guess i'm not as good as them
和 i 可以't do what they're doing so clearly um i don't have it in me i think 你 were spot on
when 你 said it's like the hardest single thing 确实 对于 a founder 和 entrepreneur
in a much 不同的 way, I think, than a normal person.
但 I think every normal person goes 通过 这 is finding yourself.
那's literally what I just wrote down.
§03Transcript — part 3
So I don't want, again, 这 is 更多 of a conversation than interview
因为 I'm a terrible interviewer 和 I love to talk.
Yeah, sure.
I do a monologue show, 对于 God's sake.
但 I had 这 theory too 因为 it's obvious in the books.
It's like there's 这 like myth.
It's like of like the genius young entrepreneur.
Yeah.
和 if 你 go 和 read all the biographies, they weren't like laying 关于 doing nothing when they were younger.
Yeah.
但 I, it's 非常 clear if 你 look at all of them, Steve Jobs, Enzo Ferrari, Akio Morita, Sam Walton, Estee Lauder, Coco Chanel, Edwin Land.
They do their best work when they're much older.
和 so I thought a lot 关于 them.
Like, dang, 这 is like a reoccurring theme over 和 over again.
In some cases, they're in their 40s, 50 years old, 和 they're at the top of their game.
Yeah.
和 then, 你 know, I was wondering, like, what is 这?
Okay, well, obviously, like, it is some skill set, so 你 可以, like, practice 更多.
你 have 更多 experience, so then 你 可以 make better decisions.
你 have a better network.
你 have resources.
你 have all 那.
但 一 thing 那 I believe 那 I cannot prove, 但 I believe 与 every bone in my 身体, it's like, 因为 你 know they knew themselves much 更多.
Yeah.
Like, think 关于 the way 你 know yourself in 你的 early 40s than 你 did when 你 were 23.
Oh, yeah.
It's like, 我们 thought when 我们 were 23.
Yeah.
你 don't know anything.
No.
Even the most brilliant 23-year-old does not know themselves.
那 comes 通过 time 和 experience.
和 it's like, no, no.
这 is something I learned 从 Michael Dell's autobiography, which was excellent.
I used to say it's like they build a company 那's authentic to them.
Yeah, 100%.
He also, the way he says it, they build a company 那's natural to them.
Right.
和 你 可以't build a company 那's natural to 你 if 你 don't know who 你 are.
100%.
和 so I have 这 belief 那's like, 和 I think 你的 accomplishments are freaking crazy.
和 I know 你 like to downplay them.
和 it's just 因为 你're 非常 polite 和 everything else.
I was watching 这 funny interview 与 你.
和 they mentioned something like, 你're the most successful person to ever come out of Scandinavia.
和 你的 face, 你的 words were 非常 polite, 但 你的 face, it's like somebody poked 你.
你're like, oh, I don't want to be described 那 way.
但 你的 response is like, I know 那 face.
I know exactly what 你 said.
但 这 idea 那 你 are the sum of 你的 accumulated experiences, right?
那 is 一 form of education.
但 the form of education is like, I know I went to 你的 house.
I rummaged 通过 你的 library, maybe kind of rudely.
但 I loved how 你 were obsessed 与 history 和 philosophy too.
和 I was like, oh, 这 is a person 那's – he's curious 关于 the external world.
但 he also wants to know like who he is, what's 重要 to him.
和 then building a business 和 like an apparatus 大约 那.
So I just wanted to get 那 out 因为 你 mentioned something like I don't think – I 应该 probably talk 关于 it 更多 frequently.
但 it's something I definitely believe.
It's like 你're going to get better at entrepreneurship when 你 get better knowing who 你 are 和 what 你 actually want to do.
100 percent um 和 和 uh as 你 say it's like um 你 know i i think the the game i'm playing now
is just being the best version of myself 和 uh the best version of myself is 一 那 会 have
even 更多 impact than the 一 那 had 之前 因为 it 会 be even 更多 true to who i am
so what is 你的 archetype i mean do 你 even know no i i don't know which is why i was asking 你
因为 I figured who's the person in the world
那 probably has a better idea
of like all the 不同的 archetypes
因为 I 可以 still learn how to like,
你 know, do the game better,
if 那 makes sense.
I 会 say there's a 非常 interesting idea
和 那 I've noticed, 你 know,
obviously like there's 这 maxim I say over 和 over again
那 all of history's greatest entrepreneurs
研究 history's greatest entrepreneurs.
和 if 你 make a podcast on 那,
你 get to meet the living versions of 那 now.
和 what i'm struck by 和 i'm like 这 myself i have all kinds of blind spots which 你 like
picked away the 首先 time 我们 had dinner 和 你're just like 你're doing 这 wrong 和
你 were 非常 polite 但 just like 你're lying to yourself 你're not like 你 know 你're 你're
obsessed 与 这 和 你're like fighting 与 a hand behind the back 但 i'm so amazed
it's exactly what 你 said it's like it's almost like they need a mirror so there's another great
idea 那 i've seen a few times uh 一 of the truly novel idea it's 这 idea of hiring a paid
critic so sony is making 你 know audio equipment 这 is like in the 50s 这 is like 和 they're
非常 primitive devices 和 what they realized was they they hired a young vocal arts student 和 i
don't know how to pronounce his name is Norio Ohga something like 那 和 the reason they did 那
is 因为 he was a fan of early sony products yeah 但 he also had 非常 fine refined taste 和
everything else right 和 so he 会 just light them up 关于 he's like i'm a big fan of sony 但
你的 products aren't good enough 你 have all 这些 deficiencies 和 Akio being the genius he was he
goes, 我们 hired him as a paid critic. His job was to attack the deficiencies in 我们的 product 因为
我们 don't even see them. 和 the paid critic, his point was 那, hey, if 你're a ballet dancer,
你 have a mirror, right? 你的 mirror tells 你 what 你're doing right, what 你 可以 fix,
like what 你 need to do. He's like, I'm 你的 aural mirror. 和 then fast forward to when the
book is uh published in like 1986 那 paid critic is now the president of sony 和 i feel
exactly i'm 这 way it's like 我们 need a mirror yeah 和 i think what's what i'm curious 关于
与 你 is like um i remember i just had dinner 与 mike ovitz 和 你 know he's i think his
autobiography is 一 of the best entrepreneur autobiography he's ever written 因为 he
tells 你 关于 the bad shit the fact 那 he was didn't like who he was he was depressed he
He was doing 这, making bad decisions based on the opinions of other 人们, which entrepreneurs cannot do.
和 I was struck by, like, the fact 那 he didn't know himself at, 你 know, 25 或 – I think he was 27 when he started CAA.
Sure as hell knows himself as, like, almost an 80-year-old man.
但 I asked him 关于 – 你 know, he's had some 人们 I know have been friends 与 him 对于 25 years.
和 i was just like why what do 你 think has enabled 你 to maintain 那 relationship
和 he said uh he tells me the truth yeah 和 he's like 你 get 进入 my position yeah where
你 know he's famous he's wealthy most of the 人们 那 he interacts 与 are on his staff
yeah 和 he's like 你 it's 非常 dangerous 和 he said he's like there's not many 人们 in my life
那 tell me the truth yeah who tells 你 the truth many 人们 which is the good news uh 对于
me, 你 know, it starts 与 my family, my mom. 你 know, my mom is the most normal person 你
会 be. She's proud of my accomplishments, 但 in sort of the standoffish way. She couldn't care
anything 关于 the impact of it. It is 更多 like 那 I've overcome obstacles 对于 myself 那 she
knows matters to me. So oftentimes, 那's great. Yeah. 和 so oftentimes, like when I may bring an
issue home, 因为 she doesn't 确实 know what's going on in the business world, 和 she doesn't
确实 care. She kind of like, gives me 这 mirror back where most of life actually doesn't
revolve 大约 technology 或 the business world, etc. It's like, 这 is the life. So 那's a great
I have a 非常 dear friend, Jack, who 非常 similarly plays 那 part in my life.
He's the most realist person there is.
My wife is another 一.
Gustav 那 你 met is another person.
He 会 tell me the truth even when I don't want to hear it.
和, yeah, I've been incredibly fortunate 那 many of the 人们 I just talked 关于 are 人们 那 have been 大约 me 对于 20 years.
My mom, obviously, my entire life, 但 many of 这些 人们 have been 大约 对于 a 非常, 非常 long time.
和 I think 那's, 你 know, I 确实 believe trust is 一 of the most under-talked 关于 things, 你 know, 因为 it's not easy to scale.
和 it's incredibly hard.
It's the number 一 thing why most organizations break down 和 why 你 need processes 和 all the other bureaucracies ultimately 因为 there's no trust.
If 你 had 100% trust, 你 wouldn't need any of 这 stuff 和 你 会 move much faster.
It's crazy.
Munger, again, like I literally get emails every 周.
They're like, why do 你 mention Charlie Munger on every episode?
I'm like, 因为 he's the wisest person I've ever come across.
What do 你 want me to do?
Like, I'm sorry he has so many good ideas.
但 he said something again, 和 he's another person where he, like, points things out 那 once he says it, it's obvious, 但 no 一 else says it.
和 he goes, trust is 一 of the greatest economic forces in the world.
和 he talked 关于 那.
Like, 你的 job, when I actually got to have dinner 与 him, he's like, 你的 job is to build a seamless web of deserved trust 与 great 人们.
100%.
和 he's like, 那's not – 和 he was telling stories.
He's like, everybody knows 那, 你 know, I met Buffett when he was 28 和 I was 35.
They don't understand there's all 这些 other guys 大约 us, 和 我们 built friendships 和 did deals forever.
Most of them had passed away by the time I met them.
但 那 idea, it's like trust is 一 of the greatest economic forces in the world.
It truly is.
和 if 你 think 关于 it, why is 那 so rare?
It's 因为 it doesn't scale, right?
So trust is 这 notion 那 你'll keep doing actions 那 会 ladder up over time.
It 确实 compounds.
但 你're going to add maybe 1% of trust
对于 each positive interaction 你're going to do
但 it takes 一 interaction 那's bad to ruin all of it.
The moment where 你 even start doubting
whether 你 可以 trust someone 或 not, 你 have no trust.
So the point being is it's like absolute trust.
If 你 确实 think 关于 it, there's 这 sort of final gradient.
Most 人们 define it as 这 binary thing
但 it 确实 isn't.
it's 确实 kind of like
你 know what most 人们 会 say
is either I trust someone 或 don't
但 even let's say 你 do trust someone
there's degrees of trusting someone
how many 人们 do 你 trust 与 你的 life
how many 人们 do 你 trust
与 你的 bank account
just handing it over
to a certain degree
I think 那's 一 那 like
人们 那 know me
so I actually had breakfast 与 a good friend of mine
he's slightly older
但 he tells me truth
和 he is 非常 nice, 但 he'll point out the problems 那 like are going to stop me 从 going to where I want to go.
和 一 of his points, 因为 I 会 answer, like if I asked 那 question myself, I was like, I don't trust anybody.
Yeah.
I think I'm getting a little better 与 那, 但 I am concerned 那 like I'm going to be 一 of my own worst enemies 因为 of 这 like I 可以't let go.
Yeah, 但 look, I mean, 你 talked 关于 it yourself.
It started in 你的 childhood.
Like in my case, I grew up 没有 a father 对于 sure, 但 I have the most loving mother.
She gave me everything.
和 to have 那 start in my life, I've 总是 felt 那 whatever I do, whatever the failure is, she 会 总是 love me.
和 to have 那 in 你的 back pocket, I think it means 你 automatically come 从 a 不同的 vantage point than what I believe 你 had in 你的 childhood, right?
和 then my approach to life is just like, okay, well, again, I'm not saying I have absolute trust in every person, 但 I choose to believe 那 trusting 人们 makes 对于 a much 更多 fun, rich, 和 rewarding life than 一 那 doesn't.
和 I believe 那.
I think 你're definitely right 关于 那.
Yeah, 和 I believe 那 life is 更多 fun doing the journey 与 other 人们 大约
than doing it in single player mode.
和 那 doesn't mean 那 I'm not also a person 那 likes my own spare time, my own
comfort, my own solitude.
I have 那 part, 和 那's the duality in my personality.
但 I 确实 do believe, 和 it 会 go back to philosophy, 但 the 更多 I give away, the
更多 I get back.
和 和 so i just keep focused on doing 那 和 对于 me the ultimate uh impact at 这 point why i
said 你 know i i like to be the best coach there ever was the best entrepreneur coach maybe 那's
my archetype 但 yeah um then then a player 因为 i've come to see 那 这些 人们 那
I've done Spotify 与 对于 the past 15 years as an example seeing their success
seeing their impact seeing their growth is the thing 那 give me the most
amount of pride at 这 point it 确实 isn't anything else like 你 know
financially I couldn't care not 那 重要 it's great to have a lot of
money to have as a currency to then have 更多 impact it's 更多 chips on the
table to do new 更多 cool interesting stuff 但 um 但 the real thing um 对于 me 会 be the
friendships 那 i built um 你 know the the trust 那 other 人们 placed in me to allow me to help
§04Transcript — part 4
them on 这 journey help me on my journey 和 us doing it together 和 i've just seen it so many
times. I've been burned by it 对于 sure. Sometimes when 人们 have broken 那 trust 那 I put in
them. 但 I 会 honestly say 那's been like 一 或 2% negative experience relative to all
the positive things 那 come out of it. The sad part of 这, I 可以't think of anybody 那's
betrayed me in like 二 decades. So it's like, I'm just making up 这 problem, 这 imaginary
problem 那 maybe used to exist, 但 certainly doesn't exist now. 和 这 is where I think it's
确实 like uh helpful to again i don't need a bunch 你 know i don't i don't believe there's a
great um quote 从 the founder of red bull who i became slightly obsessed 与 um 和 i'm 确实
proud of the episode i made on it 因为 like 我们 had to literally translate there was no biographies
in english 和 那 我们 had translated a biography 从 german um 和 his point was just like i don't
need 50 friends like i believe in much like fewer 和 better 和 deeper yeah um 和 as long as 你
make 那些 like choices correctly 你 know again like i 可以't think of a single person 那 i feel
is in my life 那 doesn't want the best 对于 me yeah 和 yet i still have 这 like oh like i'll
just do it all myself yeah um uh 非常 related to 这 another thing 那 like 你 said 那 确实
surprised me is like when 人们 ask me they're like obviously know who daniel is i use spotify
i know everything going on 但 like why do 你 talk 关于 him so much 和 i like mentioned 你
on the podcast 和 like i was like oh 因为 i've learned a lot 从 你 你're 非常 非常 careful 与
what 你 want in life like 和 i get to meet pretty crazy 人们 和 most of times like it's
they're great 但 then 你 see like there's like a lot of negativity to them 一 there's a shocking
amount to have 非常 few if no friends yeah which is scary to me 和 then they kind of like
interact 与 你 as if like 你're like a asset 和 once i suck 那 asset like get everything
out of the asset then like 你 会 be disposed 和 i feel the same 人们 那 do 那 have
almost no intellectual humility right where i 总是 say it's like every single person i read
关于 is smarter 和 更多 productive than i am the way i look at 这 the world in general is
非常 much in the same way like thomas edison has 这 great quote he's like 我们 know what 我们 don't
know 一 一 thousandth of percent of anything yeah 和 那's the way i feel it's 因为 every
天 i learn something new i'm like yeah i'm gonna be i was so stupid back then yeah 你 have
in extreme 水平 of intellectual humility i don't even know if many 人们 know 这 但 like 你
会 like go in shadow 和 spend time i don't know if 你 have a term 对于 这 你 just like
call up somebody 那's running a company 和 say what i'm gonna come 和 sit on every single 一 of
meetings yeah pretty much uh like 那 那's how it goes um 和 和 look it comes back to 这 i
mean i i don't believe 那 i know um much let me let me just set the table 对于 这 real quick
the way 你 put it to me like i'll go get them their coffee yep i don't care yep i'm there to
learn 从 them yep i need to go get their coffee i'll go get their coffee yep do 你 understand
那's insane like i think 那's the right like mindset yeah 但 i don't think anybody 会
believe somebody running, 你 know, a hundred billion dollar company 和 has done the things
那 你've done. Like, yeah, no, I'm fine. Like I'll shadow 这 guy 和 like, I'll do whatever
I need to do. Yeah. Well, I mean, look, um, I, I just realized it, it sort of started 从 这
thing, right. Where, um, 你 和 I have both read all the books 和 actually many of the entrepreneurs
have read, um, not as many books 关于 as, as 你 have 大约 all the greatest entrepreneurs,
但 they've read the big ones.
Yeah.
Certainly of their time, the basis is the Steve Jobs,
the Elon Musk's biographies 和 all 那 kind of stuff.
但 there's a certain thing 大约 reading it
和 internalizing it 和 seeing the culture up front.
和 what I realized was building Spotify,
obviously it's the biggest company I've ever built.
So I'm learning on the job.
和 I don't know what I don't know
因为 I've 从不 确实 worked at a company, right?
和 it's in a way what I realized as 我们 hired 人们 从 这些 other companies is 那 there were all 这些 things 那 they were doing 那 they kept telling us 关于.
和 I didn't 确实 understand like how it worked.
So I'll mention like 一, 对于 instance, I do 确实 well in 这些 like 一-on-一 situations.
I 可能 even do well in like 三 或 four person groups 和 maybe six.
但 10 person group, like I don't have the personality where I command the room.
It just doesn't work. 和 then 你 have someone like a Mark Zuckerberg who literally has 这 thing called large group where he has 20 to 25 人们 那 he runs every 周. 和 对于 me, it sounded absolutely awful. Like, how did he get anything done in 那 meeting?
和 so lo 和 behold, I asked him, hey, 可以 I come 和 learn 从 你? 和 he was incredibly gracious. 和 我们've obviously been friends 对于 a long time. 和 he said, sure. 和 so I spent the better part of what I believe the 首先 time was like a 周, literally in pretty much all of his meetings 从 start to finish.
和 the big question, obviously, 对于 me is like, okay, well, what does he get out of it?
和 可以 I make myself useful while doing it?
So hence, I took meeting notes.
你 know, if I could get him coffee, I 会.
你 know, it was literally 这些 types of things.
但 at the end of it, the most interesting thing was obviously trying to distill down what surprised me 关于 the culture.
It wasn't 确实 大约 like Meta 和 what was then Facebook is a world-class company.
It wasn't like, 你 know, I miraculously thought I could do a lot of things 不同的 或 better.
但 there were things 那 surprised me 大约 how he managed the company.
和 seeing 那 和 hearing 那 从 another founder, hopefully 一 那 he respects too, may sort of lead to insights 和 breakthroughs.
throughs. 和 期间 那 周, it's not just 那 I follow 人们 大约, I actually meet 与 their
entire executive team 和 interview them too. So sit down 和 try to learn 从 them to 确实,
truly internalize the culture 和 try to understand it. 和 so all of a sudden, 你 do realize,
对于 instance, how 你 可以 make a large group team meeting work. 和 there were lots of other things
which I shamelessly copied 从, 对于 instance, 那 experience.
和 it just turned out 对于 me to be an amazing way to learn
by seeing the culture up front 那 enables the certain practices to work.
It almost comes back to kind of 这 二 things 我们 talked 关于 already,
which is 这 mirror of reflecting it back.
和 then the sort of 秒 notion, I think, which is it's got to be true to 你.
So, 你 know, there are many things where 你 可以 copy a 具体的 way.
对于 instance, Elon does things.
但 if it's not truly innate to 你 和 你的 personality, I promise 你 it 会 not have the same impact as when Elon does things.
I think 你're dead right 关于 这.
The way I 会 think 关于, like, 你的 archetype is I think 你 nailed it 与, like, coach.
和 then 你'll hear 人们 inside Spotify say it's like 非常, 你 have a 非常 collaborative like management style where I don't think anybody is going to describe Steve Jobs as collaborative.
Now he was able to collaborate, 但 at the end, like he was, it was kind of like, I'm making all the decisions.
There's actually an interesting story.
I'm curious how 你 think 关于 这.
Like, how do 你 balance, like, the decisions 你 make, specifically on, like, product, right, 与, like, 你的 own personal taste 和 intuition versus, like, being metrics-driven?
There's 这 hilarious story.
It's in 二 不同的 books.
一's in 这 book called Creative Selection, which is excellent.
It's read 三 times.
It's 从 这 guy named Ken Kocienda, who was a programmer.
He demoed to Steve many, many times when they were building their best products, right?
和 then there's another story in Jony Ive's biography.
和 they were comparing 和 contrasting the way Google 会 make products versus how Apple did when Steve Jobs was in charge.
和 the guy's like, hey, at Google, 我们 have to decide between blue 和 light blue.
和 我们 run like 200 tests of all the 不同的 shades in between 那.
和 Jony's like, 我们 会 从不, ever do 那.
Do 你 remember, 你 were old enough to remember 这.
they create the iMac, 但 like the big fat bubble 一.
Yep.
你 know, probably like late 90s.
和 it was the 首先 time there was going to be all 这些 like crazy colors 和 everything else.
和 Jony tells the story, he's like, 你 know how 我们 chose the colors?
He's like, me 和 Steve went to the design, like the Apple Design Center,
和 我们 talked 关于 it.
和 30 分钟 later, the colors 你 saw, 我们 shipped.
那 was it.
Where are 你 on like 那 spectrum?
Yeah, I think the most 重要 thing 那 你 described is it's a spectrum. It's not 100%, 你 know, 一 way 或 the other way. 因为, again, sort of like I remember early on, 你 know, 人们 talking 关于 那 sort of dichotomy of how Google does things 和 how Apple does things.
和 many founders then tended to gravitate when Apple was at sort of peak Steve Jobs to, no, I run the product review.
It's only my opinion 那 matters 和 it's my taste.
和 I've got 这 articulation, all 这些 things.
和 lo 和 behold, like some terrible decisions ended up coming out of 这, et cetera.
和 I think where 人们 sort of break down on almost all issues is they take it literally.
I don't believe 对于 a 秒 那 Apple was 100% in the camp where Steve Jobs just had universally the answer to everything.
He didn't listen to anyone else's opinions.
He didn't try things out, sometimes maybe trying it out by testing his ideas on multiple 人们 inside 和 outside, 你 know, et cetera.
但 of course he did 那, right?
和 I know 一 of the ways he did it, which was brilliant 和 那 don't get talked 关于.
He actually called up journalists sometimes 和 tested ideas on them.
和 like, 我们 可能 do 这 kind of thing.
和 then here the journalists react to it.
和 it's like, okay, 那 was a bad idea.
和 then go back.
They describe 这 as like sonar, how dolphins, like, they like throw things out.
和 it 可能 be a crazy idea.
和 then it reflects back to them.
和 they use it as like a form of education.
但 the hilarious 一 is they couldn't figure out what they were going to call what turns 进入 the iMac.
He was obsessed 与 Akio Morita at Sony.
He goes, I have the name 对于 这 computer.
It's going to be the Mac Man.
因为 of the Walkman.
和 人们 大约 him were like, no, please don't do it.
There 可以't be 那.
和 he was like, 这 is terrible.
和 they kept meeting 之后 meeting.
He's like, Steve, 这 name sucks.
和 they give him a bunch of lists.
和 then the 首先 time he hears iMac, he's like, don't like it at all.
和 then they're like, well, 我们 确实 like it.
So 我们'll put it in the next group.
和 then 我们'll put the third 一 down.
和 then he goes, now I don't hate it.
和 then 一 天 he's walking in the hall.
He's like, I came up 与 the name.
It's iMac.
Yeah.
和 of course, yeah.
那's the way.
那's the way, right?
和 so I feel like 那's truly the case.
I think the realization is 你 tend to over gravitate to 一 或 the other.
和 certainly in Spotify's case, 我们 did the same.
Like 我们 were early on, 非常 much so.
I mean, the 首先 user interface was pretty much designed by myself 和 这 guy called Rasmus.
So much of 那 你 could describe was my taste.
但 sooner 或 later, what ends up happening is 你 get 进入 a space where 你 don't even know anymore.
因为 你的 current feedback loop of where the world is
和 the customer 你're designing 对于 starts becoming a little bit 不同的.
和 then 你 need to get to a point where 你 start incorporating some feedback mechanism.
So like 对于 me, taste is sort of judgment plus curiosity.
和 the 更多 你 可以 sort of like extend the curiosity branch,
那 改善 你的 judgment, which then builds 你的 taste.
和 so it's 确实 a question 对于 me 关于 just sort of allowing 对于 as much feedback as humanly 可能 so 那 你 可以, 你 know, get yourself 或 a small team to some 水平 of taste.
The best leaders in business are able to spot patterns, 但 你 可以't spot patterns if 你 可以't see 你的 数据.
和 most businesses are only using 20% of their 数据 因为 80% of 你的 customer intelligence is invisible, hidden in emails, transcripts, 和 conversations.
Unless 你 have HubSpot.
HubSpot is where all of 你的 数据 comes together so 你 可以 see the patterns 那 matter.
因为 when 你 know 更多, 你 grow 更多.
和 那 is a pattern 那 从不 fails.
Visit HubSpot.com today.
那 is HubSpot.com.
Are there any product updates 那 get pushed live 那 你 didn't like?
Oh, plenty.
Plenty.
和 这 may be a little bit unique, 但 coming back to it,
so I ended up having –
so the typical thing is 那 the founder needs to be the product person, right?
By the way, it's 100% true.
I totally believe 那. I think it's the most 重要 thing in the zero to 一 stage.
但 what a lot of 人们 don't talk 关于 is the fact 那 there isn't 一 stage of 这 journey.
It's like 你're oscillating between zero to 一, 一 to a hundred, 和 then, 你 know, the last stage was 更多 like optimization stage.
和 你 have to like constantly do 那.
和 你're going to need 不同的 skills at 不同的 places.
和 这 is why, by the way, I believe it's so 重要 对于 entrepreneurs to realize when to apply what tools in 这 journey.
So what happened 与 Spotify is sort of against all the common wisdom 和 wealth, which is I don't 确实 run product anymore.
因为 what happened was I got 这 guy called Gustav 那 你 now met, 和 he runs product.
和 he's actually way better than me at doing it.
和 so speaking 关于 sort of being truthful, what ended up happening many years ago was I was running 这些 product meetings.
He was sort of running it, 但 I wanted to run it.
So I kind of interjected myself over him, 但 I didn't have the time to like 确实 spend all 这 time.
So he was sort of like running it 对于 me, 但 I still insisted on having product reviews.
和 sort of talking again 关于 the importance of having 人们
who give 你 candid feedback.
He took me aside 之后 一 of 这些 product sessions
和 he's like, 你 know, 你're not 确实 那 good
in doing 这些 things 和 你're not 确实 那 helpful.
§05Transcript — part 5
So most of the time, me 和 the team,
我们're kind of like looking 和 我们're trying to basically,
你 know, appease 你 in the meeting,
但 你're not 确实 adding as much value as 你 think.
和 not surprisingly, my 首先 instinct was to be 确实 pissed off.
I sort of went home.
I was like, man, I'm going to have to fire 这 guy.
It's like horrible.
Like, how could he say 这?
但 I also realized 那 那 was an emotional response.
So again, I wasn't fully convinced 那 这 was true, 但 I sort of went back 和 said,
okay, well, 你 know what?
I'm going to give 你 三 months where I don't do the product reviews.
和 then 我们 evaluated how 这 worked.
和 lo 和 behold, he actually did a great job.
和 so the team was much happier.
He was making 更多 of the decisions 没有 me.
I wasn't meddling in.
There wasn't 二 不同的 人们 deciding what worked,
但 it was 确实 him.
和 ever since 那 moment,
I don't 确实 run product anymore in the traditional.
I'm involved in the product
和 he solicits feedback 从 me all the time,
但 I don't run the product meetings.
和 I say 那 因为 what happened 对于 me was a real setback, not just in sort of 那 moment, 但 it also sort of like, oh, wait a 分钟.
So what am I 确实, 你 know, what's my value add then in 这 company?
和 it took me a while 和 I realized 那 all of a sudden, hmm, actually, 你 know what, 那 won't be it, 但 maybe I 可以 add value in 这 place.
和 I sort of oscillated to 这 不同的 place in the company, which was much closer to understanding the creator 和 spending 更多 time 与 the content 人们, et cetera.
和 so my product feedback ended up being, 你 know, 和 这 is the dynamic 那's quite unique to Spotify in 那 我们 have 这些 二 stakeholders.
我们 have consumers on the 一 end 和 我们 have creators.
和 so I just made it my effort to understand 和 know the creator way better than anyone else in the company.
和 so my product feedback to them comes 从 那 lens.
和 那 became value add 因为, again, 那's a 非常 不同的 thing.
那's an outward facing thing.
你 actually have to sit down 和 meet 与 creators.
It is so much 更多 关于 innately understanding their needs 和 talking to them 和 understanding not just how they use the product, 但 their business.
What problems are they facing 那's not just sort of how they leverage the product, 但 actually holistically 大约 them.
和 so 那 was just 一 of 那些 things.
和 then subsequently what ended up happening is I got 这 guy called Alex, 和 he's now doing 那 part better than me too.
和 so I was like, okay, well, now I need to find a 不同的 way to add value.
和 now it turns out 那 my value add is the sort of in-between between the 二, where business 或 creators meets consumers 和 where there's maybe a third stakeholder 我们 have to consider in all of 这.
和 so my whole sort of experience in all of 这 has 确实 been 大约 kind of figuring out who I am 和 what I'm innately good at.
和 这 has been a learning journey 对于 20 years.
What 你're just describing right now, 这 unfolded over how many years?
I 会 say the 首先 10 years was the zero to 一 journey.
和 the last 10 has been 那 journey where 我们're not zero to 一 anymore as a company holistically.
但 there are elements of the company where 我们're zero to 一 where I'm absolutely 100% involved.
I think 这 is a good opportunity to talk 关于 another 一 of 你的 非常 unique ideas.
There was 这 excellent – I just did 这 episode on Jeff Bezos 因为 he doesn't give 那 many interviews.
和 so I 会 take a transcript of his interviews 和 treat it like a book 和 just go 通过 it.
和 he said something like 从 天 一, he knew like he wanted to build a company 那 could outlast him.
Yeah.
Right.
He still loves it.
He'll love it forever.
和 it was 非常 reminiscent of like what 我们're trying to do as parents where it's like 你're shaping 你的 kid, 但 你're only successful if they 可以 survive 没有 你.
Yeah.
和 when I heard him say 那, it was a few months 之后 你 had beautifully like articulated 这 idea.
It's just like, well, I think there's a lot of, 你're going to say it better than I did, 但 本质上 like there is a 非常 rather clear analogy between the way 你的 child, when they're 首先 born, is 本质上 like a product of 你.
They're going to mimic their parents, their environment 那 they're in.
但 as they grow older 和 older, I just went 通过 这 和 I have a 13-year-old, 你 know, when she was much smaller, she's much like me 和 her mom, right?
和 then now she's like, she's got traits 那 I don't even have.
Yeah, 100%.
和 her own decisions 和 like doing things maybe I 会 do 或 I 会 not do.
和 你're like, it's kind of the same 对于 the company.
和 你 had 这 idea where like, I think at the time Spotify was 19 years old 或 it's 19 或 20 years old.
和 it's just like, well, 你 know, 你're 一 或 二.
It is me.
It's like the same way 你 have a 二-year-old.
Anybody knows 这.
但 now there's characteristics 那 emerge 从 within the company 那 are separate 从 the founder.
那's like a fascinating insight.
Right. Yeah. I mean, look, there's clearly kind of like 三 distinct stages of parenthood. Right. 和 the 首先 一 is 你're literally the person 那 keeps them alive. Right. 和 你're 100 percent there. 和 你 pretty much make every decision 对于 them 因为 they 可以't make it themselves.
和 then gradually the next stage is 你're there.
你're quite involved.
你 probably step in when they're doing something which 会 be terrible 和 会 create bad long-term consequences.
和 then like the last stage, 你're not even – 你 可以't even do 那.
So the job is much 更多 subtly to just be there when they need 你.
和 I'm somewhat simplifying it
但 I think 那 与 everything
don't take it literally
但 sort of the core of the gist of the idea
is certainly a larger company becomes 更多 和 更多
和 an older company becomes 更多 和 更多 of 那
和 so much of what I do today is literally 那
I try to be there 对于 人们 when they need me
in various fields, which happens, 但 it's not as 经常 as every 天 all the time.
和 what I deeply care 关于 today, 和 I do spend a lot of my time on,
is 这 notion 大约 这 首先 seed of a new idea 和 protecting 那 idea.
和 I think it's probably the most underreported, talked 关于 way is how do 你 do 那?
Like, how do 你 consistently find lighting in a bottle?
Like, 你 know, 和 it's also theoretical at the point of any strategy book talking 关于 how 你 do it 或 even when 你 go behind.
和 the other 天 I was 与 the guy Hamilton Helmer who wrote Seven Powers book, which is an amazing book on strategy, by the way.
但 一 of the most interesting ideas 那 I learned 之后 sort of, again, overfitting the concepts in the book 和 sort of teaching 人们 关于 it is 你 可以 only tell 那 你 have power when it's there.
It doesn't tell 你 how to get there.
这 is the criticism of like founders 和 the podcast 和 the books.
Like, 但 he's not telling me what to do.
It was like, 这 is not a podcast 对于 人们 那 want to be told what to do.
It's here's how 这 guy 或 这 woman thought 关于 their company.
这 is what they experienced.
你 pull out 这些 ideas.
I love how 你 say don't, 你 kept saying don't take it literally.
I've told 你 这 之前.
Like I drive 人们 crazy 因为 I tend to turn everything 进入 an abstraction.
So like when I hear 你, I've sent 这 message to 你 where 你're like,
你 kind of remind me of James J. Hill, which just 可能 be the only person 那's ever texted 你 这.
和 James J. Hill was the most successful railroad baron of all time.
和 I just thought the way 你 just said the way he built, he 本质上 was laying railroad tracks, right?
和 the goal of the company was obviously 我们're going to have goods 和 人们 on the tracks.
Right.
但 这 alone is how do I make what I'm doing 更多 valuable?
和 he's the only railroad founder ever in American history to not go bankrupt.
They all went bankrupt.
It's crazy.
What he realizes is like he has to spend just as much, if not 更多 time, developing 和 nurturing the communities 那 are springing up 大约 it.
和 if he builds 这些 communities 大约 it, 那 makes his railroad 更多 valuable.
但 I love 这 criticism 因为 it's like, oh, 你 got to find a 不同的 show 或 你 got to find a 不同的 thing 因为 like entrepreneurs don't want to be told what to do.
I've 从不 met an entrepreneur.
It's like, give me a list.
it's a profession 对于 人们 那 don't take direction 非常 well.
Exactly.
It's hilarious 关于 这.
I think 这 is tied to something also 那 is 非常 fascinating 与 你,
is 你 have a high, 和 most 人们, again,
I think the 更多 control 你 have over 你的 life, the 更多 success 你 have,
人们 make the mistake of eliminating any 人们 telling the truth,
any inconvenience, 和 你 become 确实 brittle.
你 have an insane high tolerance 对于 crazy 人们.
okay um somebody told me somebody works closely 与 你 那 你 judge 人们 on their best idea
not their worst 和 i just finished rereading Jim Simons founder of renaissance technologies
uh 确实 creator of a magic money machine is 确实 what i think 关于 the guy yeah um 和
they said something 非常 相似的 they're like it doesn't matter he's like if there's a single good
idea in 你的 pile of horse manure like he'll find it like yeah he 会 go 通过 yeah he all he
cares 关于 is the 非常 best ideas yeah he 会 willing to go 通过 99 shitty ideas yeah to get
the 非常 best 因为 he understands how powerful 那些 are 可以 你 explain like how 你 develop
这 tolerance 因为 most 人们 like 尤其是 这 company's age too yeah 你 know 你're built
usually 你 have a lot of variance in the beginning yeah 和 then they get 更多 successful 和 they
kind of they make the corporations make the mistake of like no 我们 need like to 我们 need all
the edges 我们 need the high 和 the low yeah out of there yeah 你 embrace 那 你 the way 你 put
to me when 我们 were talking 关于 这 is like high 温度 人们. Yeah. 和 对于 like,
in like 训练 AI. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I actually think LLMs 和 the latest advancement
in AI kind of have created an excellent framing on 这 和 to talk 关于 这 sort of high
温度 notion. So in LLMs, 你 可以 basically tune up the 温度. 和 if 你 tune up the
温度, 你 know, it basically start hallucinating. So, 你 know, the bad thing
与 the hallucination, of course, is 你 have no idea what's true 或 not. 但 there are spurts of
vocational brilliance 那 comes out of there 和 the truly new ideas 那 come out of there. So the
criticism of the current generation LLMs is they're not 非常 creative. 和 那's ultimately
因为 我们've kind of turned down the 温度 on them 和 我们 safety train them to the point
where 我们 keep them within the guardrails.
So there is a way when 你 train 这些 things
to be highly creative, 但 batshit crazy.
和 那's just turning up the 温度.
和 I believe 那, 你 know, 一 of the,
和 这 is by the way,
something 那 I intend to 专注 a lot 更多 on
in the next decade.
你 know, I'm 非常 reflective at the moment
因为 I am in my 19th year.
和 I think it's interesting,
你 sort of talked 关于 big companies
因为 I used to think,
之前 I sort of ran a big company myself,
I just used to think they're bad, period.
和 I've sort of revised my view
和 now I think they're 确实 good
at doing what they're already doing
和 doing it better.
So back to 那 point,
like a large scale corporation,
what they do is they just get better
和 better 和 better
at doing what they already do.
和 the way to do 那
is obviously minimize mistakes.
so um 你 know 那 also means minimize brilliance minimize waste minimize all 这些 other things
so naturally what 你 end up having is a 更多 和 更多 capitalism public markets all 这些 things
drives 你 towards 一 thing optimize what 你're doing to the point where it's the most efficient
thing 那 it 可以 possibly be 但 那 is not how conducive to how 你 get the best ideas
和 what I'm greatly satisfied 和 happy 与
和 I've been fortunate enough
as I don't anymore run Spotify
as much 天-to-天 as I used to.
I'm still 非常 involved,
但 I'm not involved in all the team meetings
和 doing all the things 那 I used to do.
So I was like 90% internally focused
on just getting the machine to run.
is 那 I've been 更多 和 更多 able,
not just have the free time to think,
但 I've been 更多 able to meet 更多 人们.
和 part of the beauty of 那
is 那 it brought me back to music again.
和 it brought me back to the creative process of music again.
和 it is something remarkable in a studio
where 你 have a bunch of 人们
just throwing ideas at each other.
和 musicians actually in many ways know 更多 关于 the entrepreneurial process than most 人们 give them credit.
I think it's the same thing.
Filmmakers, like athletes.
§06Transcript — part 6
100% the same thing.
Yeah.
100%.
和 so 这 point then is 那 what I truly believe the 非常 best musicians do 和 the most creative 人们 do is they are not afraid of throwing out ideas.
even terrible ones.
和 it's in even the most terrible 一,
there may be a nugget.
你 和 I, 我们 talked 关于 这 over breakfast
where there was a person
who sort of gave some bad advice to 你.
但 sometimes even the insight behind the advice,
sort of the question behind the question
可以 lead to some 确实 interesting things.
和 so what I've come to do, realize, is most 人们 want conformity 和 they value sort of a reliable consistency of giving X amount of impact per 秒 或 分钟 或 truthfulness over X percent.
they have some sort of heuristics 对于 what is valuable person 从 a business context 或 whatever
sort of context 你're judging it on, 但 certainly in a business concept, 这 conformity.
So 你 want to sort of put 人们 in 关于 这 person is good 和 they're 总是 good.
但, 你 know, what I'm 更多 interested in 这些 天 is I'm interested in 这 idea I'd 从不
heard 关于 之前. 和 I find it 与, 你 know, some 人们, 你 know, 那 even in an 小时 long
conversation 与 the best 人们 in the world where I've learned the most, it may be 55 分钟
of 那 conversation 那 honestly was, 你 know, completely worthless, not 那 interesting 对于 me.
但 then there's a spur of the moment, 二, 三 分钟 of brilliance, which I 从不 heard 之前, which 会 deeply 和 profoundly impact my life.
那些 are my 人们.
那's what I'm interested in.
和 I've come to learn 那 most 人们 don't like to be 大约 那些 人们.
但 I love it.
和 I think it's, 你 know, such a rewarding 和 interesting thing.
和 I'm looking forward to spending 更多 time 与 那些 人们 in the coming decade.
和 it's sort of 一 of 那些 things 那 I've sort of want to do 更多 of 和 learn 更多 从.
I think 这 is related.
一 of 你的 oldest friends texted me the other 天.
和 it was a screenshot of 这 episode I did 与 Chung Ju Young, who's the founder of Hyundai.
和 it's probably the most – I think it is the most inspiring autobiography I've read.
因为 the guy writes the book when he's like 90 和 he grows up the son of a poor farmer
你 know they almost they had to eat tree bark to survive he dies the richest person in south
korea builds 这 huge conglomerate i thought i was gonna read a book 关于 a guy making cars i
didn't realize 那 was like nothing like he was building did all the construction built some of
the biggest ships in the world like he was just his nickname was the bulldozer 和 the reason he
sent me the screenshot in 这 具体的 part of the podcast he's like 这 is just like daniel
和 一 thing 那 chung 会 talk 关于 is as the the 更多 你 progress in 你的 career the bigger
the company gets the 更多 like rigid it gets yeah they go 从 like default optimistic default
risk-taking to the any new idea no no no no no yeah like no 我们're not doing 那 那's too risky
like i 可以't build a car like 我们're a tiny little 你 know island 和 he goes daniel 那 gives me
the same exact advice where he 会 say something i 会 say no 和 he goes 但 did 你 even try
和 then he goes, it's related to his ability, if 你 actually analyze, his willingness to go 进入 all 这些 不同的 industries where he doesn't know anything 关于 the industry.
Yeah, yeah.
和 I think 那 sort of comes back to the George Bernard Shaw quote, right?
The unreasonable man.
Let me read the full quote 因为 it's an excellent quote too.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world.
The unreasonable 一 persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
因此, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
I have it painted on my wall at home.
Yeah.
和 I'm just reminded of 那.
因为 I think the reality is it is 确实, 确实 tough to not conform, to not be part of a group.
和 it's so easy.
和 there's so many temptations in life 那 draws us back to 那 conformity, right?
money is another 一 when 你 make a lot of money 你 tend to make life 更多 comfortable
so 你 tend to spend 更多 time golfing 你 spend some time doing all 这些 other things
但 the reality is 你 become distracted 和 你're not going to be on 你的 A-game anymore
和 so the hard thing then is to keep going 和 keep improving 和 keep doing 这些 things 但
但 你're going to have to sacrifice a lot in doing so.
你're going to sacrifice 人们's birthdays, social commitments.
你're not going to show up 对于 a lot of things.
你 told me a funny story 一 time 关于 how committed 你 are to 你的 work 和 你的 friends know 这 关于 你, 那 sometimes 你'll be in the middle of a dinner 和 then an idea comes to 心智 或 something 你 need to pursue.
和 they just know, oh, he's gone 和 he's not coming back to me.
Yeah, yeah.
那 is an unreasonable – 人们 are like, oh, I 可以't do 那.
It's social etiquette.
I even – sometimes I find myself to do 这 因为 我们're both introverts.
我们've talked 关于 这 之前.
但 like I kept getting invited to group dinners.
和 I just felt like, oh, 这 is like a prestigious group dinner.
这 person is 确实 successful.
人们 会 love 这 opportunity.
和 so at the beginning when I 首先 started doing 这, I started going.
I'm like, 这 sucks.
I remember 一 time it was in a private room 和 they shut the doors.
和 within like five 分钟, I knew I was like, I got to get out of here.
I was like, don't worry.
I'm going to pretend to go to the bathroom 和 just 从不 go back.
I was like, so I stand up 和 go, oh, where's the restroom?
Like, it's right in the room.
Like, oh, no.
和 what I did, which I wouldn't do tonight, is I sat down 和 I wasted an 小时 和 a half of my time.
Instead of just being the unreasonable man.
Like, I'm now going to say, like, what 会 Daniel Ek do?
He 会 get 或 avoid the dinner in the 首先 place.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I 会 say, 你 know, I'm not proud of sneaking out sometimes on 那.
但 look, I mean, at the end of the 天, I think 那 那's 更少 关于 sort of being protecting my time 和 更多 sort of 关于 protecting unique 和 novel ideas 和 how rare they are.
和 by the way, 我们'll hopefully get 进入 那.
但 I think 更少 关于 sort of a lot of entrepreneurs seem to be obsessed 关于 time.
I'm 确实 not.
I'm 更多 obsessed 关于 能量 management.
Wait, wait.
Yeah, let's get 进入 it now.
What do 你 mean?
Well, I mean, 你 know, 你 constantly hear 这 thing 关于 all 这些, 你 know, 你're supposed to wake up at 4 a.m. in the 早晨 和 你're supposed to do all 这些 things, et cetera.
It's like, 首先 和 foremost, there's no rule.
Like, I know a lot of successful 人们, as I'm sure 你 do too, it's like some of them wake up at noon, some of them wake up at 4 a.m.
你 可以 do a lot of 不同的 things.
The obsession 与 早晨 rituals is stupid.
Yeah. 但 the other thing is 关于 sort of 你're supposed to pack every like 你're supposed to have meetings every 15 分钟.
和 like a 15 分钟 increments is better than a 30 分钟 increments.
So on 和 so forth. Look, it 可能 work 对于 你.
和 对于 some 人们, it 可能 be like the absolute best thing.
I've become 更多 obsessed 关于 sort of managing my 能量 因为 like if 你 have time 但 你 have no 能量, 你're not going to accomplish anything anyway.
So how do 你 manage 你的 能量 then?
Well, it's 关于 finding out what gives 你 能量, right, to begin 与, 和 what drains 能量.
和 it's 关于 finding out which time 期间 the 天 你're most productive.
和 it's, again, innately 关于 understanding yourself.
和 what the whole world tries to do is get 你 to conform to their schedule.
Oh, 我们 have an 8 a.m. 早晨 meeting 因为 那's when 你 get 进入 the office,
或 你're supposed to do 这 和 那 和 all 这些 other things, again, in a big corporation.
和 it's 关于 conformity to like the average 或 to an okay standard instead of going 对于 excellence
和 what truly truly is unique 和 i think the truly truly unique thing is 你 got to just
figure out what works 对于 你 和 你 got to do 更多 of 那 和 那's um 更多 关于 能量
management i believe 和 it's so much 更多 关于 like even 之前 这 thing i think both 你 和
i 我们 went 和 worked out right 你 know 那 那 gives me 能量 yeah it's what's gonna sustain the
rest of my 天. I used to not do workouts at all 因为 I thought I don't have time. There's no
productivity. I used to go 对于 the worst productivity thing I did was I was at 一 point doing 这些
15 分钟 naps. I don't know if 你've heard 关于 这 运动. No. It's a 确实 bad idea by the
way. So don't try 这. 但 I sort of learned 那 你 可以 like daisy-chain sleep together by
doing like 这些 50 oh it's like polyphasic yeah yeah okay so the basic gist is 你're supposed to
be able to last like on four 小时 of sleep 和 i was like oh 这 is great so i did 那 和
actually the interesting side part is it worked 对于 关于 三 周 um 和 then i missed 一 of
这些 uh 15 分钟 increments 和 holy shit i was like completely suicidal 对于 like 周 afterwards
It was like not a great thing at all.
但 the point being is, 你 know, it's 关于 sort of finding 那 能量 management 对于 yourself.
I think certainly there's common wisdom 大约 sort of what an average good sleep 应该 look like, et cetera.
但 the reality is there are some 人们 那 会 work on six 小时 of sleep 和 they'll do just fine 和 may even be 更多 productive 那 way.
I wish I was like 那.
Like if I 可以 have a superpower, I 总是 say like I like to fly.
The 首先 thing is I want to fly like Superman.
Yeah.
If I 可以't do 那, I just want sustained high 能量 水平 24-7.
因为 I need a ton of sleep, 和 I felt bad 关于 这 因为 the same exact reason 你're describing.
It's like 人们 are like, no, 你've got to get up at 430 或 你've got to sleep 更少 或 sleep faster.
Arnold Schwarzenegger 会 say 你've got to sleep faster.
和 then I'm reading James Dyson's 首先 autobiography.
和 the guy made 一 of the most successful companies of all time.
He's still doing it at 76 years old.
和 he goes, I need a hell of a lot of sleep,
10 小时 a 夜间, 或 my entire next 天 is ruined.
I'm like, wait a 分钟, 这 guy built,
he's a single shareholder of a multi,
multi, multi-billion dollar company,
built some of the best products in the world,
和 he's sleeping 10 小时 a 天.
There are no, 你 just said, there are no rules.
No, it 确实 isn't.
和 so, I mean, look, 你 just gotta find 那 thing, right?
但 when 你 realize 那,
so if 你 start 与 那 as the basic thing,
like all the things 你 和 I have been talking 关于
对于 这 time now, 你 know, the reality is it's like, it's 关于 knowing yourself,
which is 确实 hard 和 你 get to know 更多. 和 it's 关于 building a 系统 那 works 对于 你.
What's giving, I know hanging out 与 crazy 人们 gives 你 能量, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
你 know, there's, there's actually something. So I text a mutual friend of ours, Patrick
和 I was like, I'm talking to Daniel 和 Patrick, I think has asked the best questions in the world.
和 so obviously I need to like use like phone a friend 对于, 对于.
那 一 lifeline.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
和 he's a good mirror too 因为 it's almost like a therapy session.
He'll be 非常 quiet, doesn't like 注意力 to himself, 和 yet he'll hit 你 与 a question like, I didn't even think 关于 那.
和 he has 这 great way to describe 你 因为 my guess is 那 – not even guess.
I'm pretty – I think 你're obsessed 与 learning 和 understanding the world 大约 你 和 那 drives a huge part of what 你're doing 和 这 exploration.
和 你 可以 build companies 大约 the stuff 你're interested in.
那's kind of like 这 compounding learning machine.
但 he goes, out of everyone I know, Daniel has the ability to apply what he learns the fastest at the highest 水平.
和 这 was actually related to a conversation 那 我们 had at 你的 house, which was fascinating.
因为, again, I know 你 don't like public adulation.
I'm still going to do it 因为 I think it's fascinating where it's like everybody focuses on Spotify, which is a marvelous achievement 那 非常 few 人们 on the planet have been able to experience.
和 yet they like also 因为 it's not 确实 talked 关于 it's like all 这 other success
那 你're having outside of 这 too 因为 你 have 这 like 你're 非常 curious 关于 things
和 now 你 have a network 和 knowledge 和 resources 那 你 可以 actually impact 和 try
to make the world a better place 和 你're not going 之后 easy shit by any means which i also
admire 关于 你 it goes back to the impact over happiness thing yeah 和 so 我们're talking 关于
这 和 i'm like were 你 因为 usually true interest is revealed early so if 我们 go 和 look
at 你的 life story just like 人们 like oh what hobbies do 你 have like i like to read yeah 和
like what else i'm like yeah i like to read 那's it it's like i was like 那 when i was five i
didn't i wasn't like five years old what's a good hobby 对于 my future self-development it's like no
i just like reading i like books better than 人们 in general um 和 so 你 see 那 in 你的
early life like 你're starting companies 和 你 don't even know it was a company it's just like
trying to do something so i was like oh 你 must be like like 你 must have been interested in like
investing forever. 和 你're like, no, I 从不 even thought 关于 it until 2018. 和 你 said
the funniest thing, 你 know, how did 你 learn 关于 it? He goes, I started 这 Patrick's podcast.
和 then I'd hear an idea of like, 那's a good idea. I 会 try 那. Oh, I don't like 那
idea. 和 then I start reading books. 和 then 你're just literally taught yourself. 你 weren't
interested at all. 和 now 你're 本质上 world-class at it in a 非常 short amount of time.
和 这 is just the face again.
你 just did the same face.
但 like explain how like 你 think 关于 这 where it's like I 总是 say learning is not memorizing information.
Learning is changing 你的 behavior.
和 I think if I thought of anybody else I know 那 personifies 那, it's like 你.
§07Transcript — part 7
It's like I'm not just like listening to 这 podcast 对于 shits 和 giggles.
I'm not reading 这 book even if 你 find it enjoyable.
Like I'm looking to like apply 这.
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, I think it's back to 那, like sort of 这些 二 concepts 我们 talked 关于.
My whole journey is 一 of self-mastery 和 finding out how I 可以 become the best version of myself.
和 meanwhile, what gives me 能量 is solving problems.
你 know, 和 as 你 say, I think 这 is revealed early.
uh like i loved i didn't know it was companies 但 i loved like sorting out problems 对于 other
人们 i've been doing my entire life whether it's a relationship advice whether it's all 这些
other things 和 这 is why i think 这些 conversations are 重要 to have 因为
like 你 are the personality type 那 i've read 关于 it's just like now instead of reading 关于
你 when 你're 80 你're dead 你're like in the middle of it so it's 非常 fascinating to me
因为 i'm like trying to balance like my understanding of 这 通过 reading 与
like an actual person, where it's just like most of the 人们,
they're not like, I'm starting a company 对于 company's sake.
Just say what 你 said.
I like solving problems.
Yeah.
那's it.
那's all.
So if 你 look at the video games,
I actually think what kind of video games 你 like
is a pretty good revealer of 你的 things too.
I wasn't playing any kind of 首先-person shooter games,
some of it, 但 not much.
Most of what I was playing was strategy games.
civilization, business strategy game.
I played every tycoon game
of how to run businesses better.
Of course 你 did.
So 那些 were sort of my favorite games
growing up.
I love SimCity.
SimCity was amazing.
这 is what I 会 say 关于 entrepreneurs.
It's the best job in the world.
I don't understand the 人们 那 give it up.
I hate even saying 这
因为 rule number 二 in the Senra family
is what I teach my kids
is 心智 你的 own business.
So it's like, I don't, I think 你're 非常 相似的.
It's like, I don't have any suggestions on how 你 应该 live 你的 life.
Like if 我们're friends, 我们 可以 talk 和 go back 和 forth.
It was like, I just 心智 my own business.
但 sometimes like I just, I don't have any other way.
Like I meet so many entrepreneurs 和 they're like, I sold my company.
I'm like, sorry to hear 那.
They're like, what?
I'm like, why 会 你 get out of the game?
和 then they sell their company 和 then 你 go be a VC.
I'm like, oh my God.
这 is the best game in the world.
It's 从不 ending.
It's not like sports where like 你 可以 get better 与 time.
你 可以 solve problems.
你 可以 build 你的 own world.
If 你 think 关于 what 我们 were doing on the computer at SimCity, it's like, oh, like I'll put a highway there.
那's like I'm – 我们're world builders.
你 get to control like who's 大约 你.
What 你're – like what are the rules in the world 那 happens?
What's the outcome of the 人们 in the world?
和 你 get to make – 和 hopefully 你're doing it 对于 like benevolent 和 good reasons where I do think like 一 of my favorite quotes 从 – 或 maxims 从 the history of entrepreneurship.
comes 从 Henry Ford, where it's like, money comes naturally as a result of service.
Yeah.
和 the crazy thing 关于 Henry Ford is by 1919, he owned 100% 因为 he bought out his investors
of 一 of the most valuable companies in the world. 和 he didn't do it to start a company.
He had 一 idea. I've read 10 books on 这 guy 和 人们 knew him forever. He's like,
一 idea. It's kind of weird 那 我们're putting together cars. They're 确实 expensive.
He was obsessed 与 machinery 和 本质上 outsourcing human labor to machines,
started on the farm. 和 he's just like, I want to build a car 对于 the everyman.
Yep.
你 said something 非常 – in the early 天 of Spotify, he's like, I have 这 goal of, 你 know, 这 celestial jukebox 或 whatever the case is.
和 你 said at the 非常 – I don't know how I'm going to do it.
He said the same thing.
Yep.
但 I learned how to do it.
He's like, oh, well, how 可以 I make a car cheaper?
Sure as hell 可以't put it in by hand.
So 我们've got to learn how to mass produce something 我们 don't know how to do yet.
和 那 took him, 你 know, a decade 和 a half of failure 或 whatever.
Yep.
和 then what happens is he didn't start the company to make money, 但 he made millions of 人们's lives better.
He changed the geography of, 你 know, the world 对于 God's sake.
Yep.
和 as a result, money came naturally as a result of service.
那's 100% how I think 关于 it.
和 I think 这 is the beauty of capitalism, right?
因为 ultimately, at the end, there has to be someone willing to pay 对于 what 你're doing.
和 the reason 对于 them to pay is obviously solving a problem 对于 them.
和 the better 你're solving 那 problem 或 the bigger the problem is 那 你're solving 对于 人们, the 更多 valuable it becomes.
What did 你 say earlier, too?
你're like, I forgot how 你 phrased it, 但 in my 心智 when I interpreted what 你 said.
it's 这 idea of not being a go-getter, 但 being a go-giver.
你're saying something like the 更多 problems 你 solve,
the 更多 it comes back to 你.
Was 那 the...
Well, so 这些 are 二 不同的 ideas,
但 sort of closely related.
So it was actually my co-founder who sort of said,
the value of a company is the sum of all problems solved.
和 if 你 确实 think 关于 it, it is exactly what it is.
So like I tell 这 to the team
因为 when 我们 face 非常 difficult problems, it is great.
因为, again, if 我们 solve 这些 problems,
我们 会 create a lot of value.
I keep saying 你 think like Bezos.
So there's a great line, same thing,
where he says, I'm reading his shareholder letters
对于 the fourth time.
和 it's like, 这些 are so good 和 so clear 和 concise,
I 应该 read them every year.
和 I was like, I feel like I just read them.
和 I looked it up.
I haven't read them since the end of 2022.
但 there's all 这些 stories in Bezos' early career
where 人们 on Amazon 会 come to him 与 a huge problem.
They thought maybe they'd get fired.
和 he got excited.
Yeah, yeah.
因为 he's like, oh, great.
Like, 我们 had a problem 我们 didn't even know.
If 我们 solve 这, 我们的 company gets even 更多 valuable.
Yeah, exactly.
There's 这 guy named Henry Kaiser who was as famous in his 天 as maybe like an Elon is today.
和 he built 100 companies.
一 of them still exists, Kaiser Permanente.
He built the Hoover Dam.
He built the Liberty ships in World War II.
和 he has 这 great maxim 那, like, 人们 会 come to him 和 they'd be all depressed 和 he'd be excited.
和 they're like, what the hell's going on here, Henry?
和 he goes, problems are just opportunities 和 work clothes.
Right.
这 is a great way to think 关于 it.
It's like, if I 可以 solve 这 problem 对于 other 人们, I make other 人们's lives better.
I make the company 更多 valuable.
和 then 你 also have to feel good 关于 what 你're creating 进入 the world.
100%.
但 I think it comes 从 solving problems.
和 so, yeah, I mean, like I get excited today.
你 sort of asked 关于 the other stuff 那 I get focused on.
I don't 专注 so much 关于 the solution.
I 专注 on the problem.
I try to find 确实 interesting problems 那, 和 figuring out, even if there's like a 5% 或 10% chance of solving 那 problem, 和 I know 那 会 be huge 对于 humanity 或 society if 我们 figure it out, then it's amazing.
Like, 那 gets me fired up.
和 the intricacies of solving 那 problem, 因为 it's oftentimes 非常, 非常 complex, 因为 it's not like other 人们 don't know 这 problem exists.
There's probably even a lot of 人们 那 会 agree 那 if 我们 could figure it out, 那 会 be 确实 valuable.
但, 你 know, I find 这 all the time.
和 你 said it yourself.
It's like sometimes they're 确实 small, 这些 problems.
Sometimes they're gigantic 和 sort of earth-shatteringly 不同的.
It's everything 大约, 你 know, life extension to, 你 know, just walking 进入 a store 和 你 see things 你 don't like in the store.
Well, 那些 are problems.
If 你 could do 那些 things better, 你 could probably build a business.
和 so the biggest thing, 然而, is 那 人们 have 这 misconception 关于 what innovation is.
和 they somehow think 那 they got to try to figure out something entirely new.
但 the history of the world is 我们 build on other 人们's ideas.
So an innovation is actually taking 二 或 更多 things 那 were already well known 和 putting it together in a new way.
It's 确实 what it is.
和 so 对于 me, the most interesting thing, it's like laying a puzzle 或 anything else.
It's like I get to sit 大约 和 因为 of meeting so many brilliant 人们, I get to listen to problems all 大约 me all the time.
和 I try to distill 和 figure out, okay, well, 这 person said 这 thing, 但 what if 你 actually articulate the problem like 这 instead?
Okay, well, what does 那 mean?
What does 那 unlock?
和 那 对于 me is just, it's so much fun.
和 I couldn't imagine, 你 know, not spending every single 天 doing 这.
和, 你 know, 我们 started 这 journey by telling my story 那 I didn't have to work.
和 那's why I started Spotify 因为 I love music 和 I wanted to figure out a way where consumers got what they wanted 和 creators were able to get paid by doing what they love to do.
和 那's 确实 the genesis of the story.
但 even today, 你 know, I'm thinking 关于 这.
和 I said, even if 你 remove all the money, even 从 the beginning, even in the middle 和 even now, there's no way I wouldn't do 这.
和 spend much of my awakened time thinking 关于 这 stuff.
Just sort of like 对于 me, 这 is impact.
和 这 is what leads to happiness in my life story.
I read something Jeff Bezos said 那 changed my perspective on the importance of high quality sleep.
He said 那 he makes sure he gets eight 小时 of sleep a 夜间.
和 as a result, his 情绪, his 能量, 和 his decision-making is 改善了.
His point was 那 你 get paid to make high-quality decisions,
和 你 可以't do 那 if 你're sleeping terribly.
和 the product 那 has made the biggest impact on my quality of sleep 对于 years is 8sleep.
I'm lucky enough to be friends 与 the founder of 8sleep, Matteo, 和 我们 live in the same city.
A few months 之后 I started using 8sleep, I randomly ran 进入 Matteo at a restaurant,
和 I was 与 some friends.
So I go over 和 say, hi.
When I got back to my table, my friend asked me, who was I talking to?
和 I said, 那's Matteo, the founder of Eight Sleep.
和 my friend replied, he looks like he gets good sleep.
Matteo is living 和 breathing his product.
I had 从不 had the ability to change the 温度 of my bed 之前 I had an Eight Sleep.
I had no idea how much 那 会 改善 the quality of my sleep.
I keep my Eight Sleep ice 寒冷.
It's 寒冷 之前 I get 进入 bed.
So I fall asleep faster 和 wake up 更少 期间 the 夜间.
那 feature alone is worth 10 times the price.
There are 非常 few no-brainer investments in life, 和 I believe 8sleep is 一 of them.
那 is why elite founders like Mark Zuckerberg 和 Elon Musk have all said publicly 那 they use 8sleep.
I 会 recommend getting the Pod 5, which is the newest generation of their signature product.
It is a smart mattress cover 那 你 place on top of 你的 existing mattress, 和 it is next-水平 sleep tech.
It automatically regulates 你的 体温 throughout the 夜间, independently 对于 each side of the bed.
§08Transcript — part 8
The result is 你 get up to a full 小时 of additional quality sleep per 夜间.
Make the no-brainer investment in 你的 sleep by going to 8sleep.com forward slash Senra
和 use the code Senra to get $350 off.
你 可以 try it 对于 30 天 at home 和 return it if 你 don't like it,
但 I'm confident 你 会 love it.
I 会 从不 let anyone take my 8sleep 从 me.
Make sure 你 get yours at 8sleep.com forward slash Senra.
你 said something in the early 天 of Spotify 那 was 非常 fascinating.
你 wanted to build, like, an enduring 和 impactful company 那 did something 那 no 一 else did, right?
It's remarkable also, like, when I'm listening to 这 series 那 was created in 2021, how much 你 guys are talking 关于 AI 和 how early 你 were 和 你 understood the impact, which is, like, 你 kind of saw clearly, like, where 我们're going.
但 你 said something 那 I didn't actually understand 因为 the way I think 关于 technology is, like, technology is just a better way to do something, right?
和 你're like at Spotify, though, like at the 非常 beginning, it's like, I think 你've nailed it.
你're like, the decisions 那 were made have to do 与 the DNA of the founder 因为 我们're the only ones there.
但 你 said, I like technology 对于 technology's sake.
Yeah.
What does 那 mean?
I like the process of science.
I like the process of discovery.
I like the process of understanding how things work.
你 know, I've been wired 这 way all my life.
I've been pulling apart computers.
I've been trying to understand why a semiconductor works the way it works, all 这些 things.
和 I'm intrigued 关于 那.
Just 这 thing 关于 understanding everything, understanding life, understand where 我们 come 从, understanding all 这些 不同的 things.
但 I'm equally interested in solving problems.
和 when 你're curious 关于 both of 那些 二 angles, 你 可以 end up finding 这些 sort of connection points where 那些 二 things meet, where it's obvious 那 there is something over there 那 no 一's 确实 kind of applied in 这 way 之前.
和 maybe there's not 一 idea, 但 二 ideas over there.
It's quite interesting.
和 和 i think 你 have to love technology in order to go to the depth of understanding what's
可能 和 和 因为 it's off oftentimes like the greatest ideas is truly innately
understanding something 和 truly innately breaking constraints 大约 那 something
by understanding the rules 和 knowing when when 你 可以 yeah to break them yeah 和 so
like what are the greatest entrepreneurs 确实 well the greatest founders are the 人们 那
kind of have 这 一 idea like what the they 可以 almost internalize the consumer right like what
is someone willing what what do they need even if they 可以't articulate themselves 和 then have 这
entire field of amazing brilliant engineers 和 scientists 和 mathematicians 和 all 这些
groups of 人们 那 are doing various things 和 then sort of figure out the intersection.
和 then 你 actually have to make it viable too, which is 你 have to have some sort of
business model 因为 if 你 don't have 那, eventually 这 thing won't be sustainable.
So, 你 know, it's sort of the trifecta of 那些 三 things.
和 那 makes it even 更多 interesting 因为 now 我们're talking 关于, 你 know, a 确实
complex equation, trying to get 这些 things together 与 multiple unknowns. 和 你're
trying to configure 这些 things by locking down constraints on 一 side, 和 then 你're trying
another side. 和 the amazing thing 关于 early stage entrepreneurship is, 你 know, 我们 talked
关于 这 Google example of trying 200 不同的 colors. 你 可以't do 那 early on. 那 is the
amazing thing. Every decision 你 make is life 或 death. 和 那 makes sort of the stakes even
higher 因为 你 may literally try 一 thing 和 then 你 run out of money. 和 so 你 got to
make sure 那 is the right thing. 和 it's just such a fascinating process, 但 it comes back.
It's a process of creativity. It's a process of trying things out. 和 I'm 更多 和 更多 enamored
和 更多 和 更多 in love 与 这 idea 那 creativity itself is 这 确实, 确实 powerful
thing, maybe the thing 那 makes us unique as humans relative to everything else 那
exists in 这 world, 和 kind of going deeper 和 deeper 进入 creativity itself.
和 it doesn't conform, 和 it doesn't scale, 和 it doesn't pave in any of 这些 other
things.
和 then 你 have 这 other side, which is all 关于 scale, which is all 关于 conforming
和 sort of navigating 那 sort of dynamism between 这些 二 things 和 polarities between 这些 二 things is, 你 know, 非常 few 人们 那 I think 可以 do 和 is 确实, 确实 well classed at doing it.
I think most of us, 你 可以't even describe why 你're doing what 你're doing at the time.
和 what I mean by 那 is like 你 hinted on 这 earlier.
It's like it's so easy to kill new ideas, right?
The arrow on the side of no, 我们 可以't do 这.
It's amazing to me how many times 这 comes up in all 这些 biographies where it's just like 这 is a skill 你 have to learn.
和 a lot of it is like being comfortable 与 the messiness of the creative product process.
但 it's also entrepreneurs by definition, impatient, patient.
Like they have 这 – what looks like a paradox where like they want shit done now.
I love – Jeff Bezos says 关于 这 step-by-step ferociously.
I'm willing to plan to – if it takes 二 decades 或 三 decades to solve the problem 那 I'm trying to go 之后, maybe in some cases stuff 那 he's working on 可能 even outlive his lifetime.
但 那 doesn't mean I'm like dilly-dallying on a 天-to-天 basis.
I heard 你 say something 一 time.
你're like, I promise 你, I don't think I'm the smartest.
I don't think I'm the most talented.
If I have 一 superpower, I have super patience.
I think Neko is like an example of 这.
I met 你的 co-founder on it.
和 I got to see 这 too.
和 I was like, oh, 这 is cool.
Who made the machines?
It's just like, 我们 did.
和 then I didn't know it was like, I don't know if stealth is the right word, 但 从 the idea to the 首先 time the customer happened, it was like six years 或 something 或 four years.
No, it's – the company's eight years old 和 我们 barely began.
和 it's like, okay, 那's an insane love.
那's an understanding of like 我们're tackling 一, something 那's – I like what 你 just said.
Like innovation 和 creativity is actually a combination of things 那 occurred 之前 那 我们're combining.
Yeah.
Right?
和 when 你 mentioned 那, I thought of like, 你 know, James Dyson is 一 of my entrepreneur heroes.
和 what I love 关于 一 of the hidden things 那 人们 don't know is he wrote a book called The History of Great Inventions.
Yeah.
和 it's such a, like, it's not, it's kind of a bland read.
Right.
God bless his 心脏.
但, like, it's just him going 通过, like, little Wikipedia pages 或, like, his version of, like, Wikipedia pages 关于, like, what 这 inventor did, how he did it, 和 what the result was.
和 then 你 see him take 这些 ideas 从, like, 1700 或 whatever.
和 it's like, oh, I'll just take, like, 那 little piece out here 和 I'll combine it 与 这 piece.
和 then what's the new technology today 那 enables me to solve 这 problem 那 didn't exist a few years ago?
So 你 have 这 patience, right?
你 have 这 desire to solve problems.
It's almost like it sounded like to me, 和 maybe 你 could disagree 与 me, like 你're sounding like 你 see a giant puzzle 那 你're trying to figure out.
Now 你 have 更多 resources.
你 可以 be patient.
Like 你 couldn't have done Neko when 你 were 23.
但 你 have 这 great quote 那 I know is 重要 to 你.
和 it says, quality is 从不 an accident.
It is 总是 a result of intelligent effort.
我们 haven't talked 关于 quality at all.
Even though Spotify is the highest – if 你 compare 你的 competitors, it's just in a class by itself.
So it's obviously 非常 重要 to 你.
我们 have to talk 关于 quality.
So do 你 want to just pick up where 那 quote leaves off?
Well, there's so many strands of quality, right?
It is both sort of the distinction of taste, whether taste is subjective 或 objective.
你 可以 go so many ways 与 这 question.
但 the way I think 关于 quality is I think so much of 你的 early life, certainly in my case, was the formulation of just trying to go 对于 更多.
和 the further I've gotten, I've realized,
和 it's 关于 everything, right?
你 amass 更多 stuff.
你 amass, 你 try to do 更多 things at the same time.
你 try to do all of 这些 things at the same time.
和 the further 你 go, 你 realize 那 it 确实 is 关于 sort of ultimately
这 非常 simplistic
trite thing, 更少 is 更多.
和 the older I get, I feel
更多 和 更多.
我们 talked 关于 it 与 friends.
I think most 人们
start out thinking
having 更多 friends is better.
但 I think 更多 人们 are happier 与
fewer 但 better friends than many
friends.
和 so I think
quality is ultimately 这
sort of notion 大约
focusing, distilling, getting to the essence.
我们 可以 even talk 关于 like quality in communication
is 经常 trimming things down 和 saying 更少 things, right?
Why is it, 对于 instance, 那 when 我们're talking 关于 非常 hard things,
most 人们's instant reaction is just to try to add 更多 complexity to the issue
instead of just simplifying it.
They're just trying to be courageous 和 just trying to say the thing right out loud.
The older I get, the 更多 my instinct is towards turning towards 那.
和 I'm reminded even if 我们 go back to investing, 因为 part of why I sort of liked investing has nothing to do 与 money.
It started 与, honestly, 这 fact 那 all of a sudden I had 更多 money than I knew what to do 与.
和 I sort of didn't want to just hand it off to a bank 没有 understanding anything 关于 it.
但 what sort of got me deeper curious 关于 it is I realized 那 investing is actually 更多 关于 learning 关于 你的 temperament than it is 关于 the 具体的 action 那 你're doing.
你的 temperament, actually, it's 更多 关于 being in line 与 你的 temperament than not, 或 which game 你're picking needs to be suited to 你.
和 你的 circumstances 和 how 你 want to play 这 than anything else.
和 so, again, 我们 come back to philosophy.
和 so 一 of the concepts is obviously 大约 那 Munger talks 关于,
coming back to Munger reference again, is diversification, right?
和 he calls it somewhat simplified diworsification,
因为 the common wisdom, of course, is in theory,
diversification is the best thing 你 可以 do.
但 the truly greatest 人们 financially, if 那's the only yardstick 你 use, 通常 do completely the opposite of 那, which is they have oftentimes only 一 asset.
Maybe they'll have 二 或 三, 但 they certainly don't have 更多 than 那.
和 they just go 对于 那.
There's a realization 你 have, right?
因为 I read something, 你 read a line, 和 你're like, okay, let me filter 那 通过 how I 会 say it.
So I do 这 all the time where like I'll take notes on all the books 那 I read 和 then I'll reread them.
I'll just jot the down.
I was like, what's occurring there?
可以 I put it 进入 一 sentence?
和 一 thing I stumbled upon 关于 这 was 那 sometimes Nick Sleep has 这 great quote where he's like, the best investors are not investors at all.
They're entrepreneurs who 从不 sold.
和 me 和 你 have talked 关于 这, the fact 那 there's a lot of 人们 那 have like sold way too early 和 they're like lauded.
和 it's like, if 你 just didn't do 那, everything else 你 did, like if 你 just didn't sell.
uh so nick sleep talks 关于 这 is like 和 in other books it's like if sam walton didn't give
away the stock in walmart to his kids 之前 it appreciated 你 know 你 have 一 of the largest
fortunes by a single person ever 对于 their ownership the concentration of ownership in
walmart 和 sam talks 关于 这些 like i didn't 确实 do investing in anything 但 walmart right
和 it's like he wasn't waking up saying i need to diversify 更多 portfolio i need to worry 关于
capital allocation he's just like i believe in what i'm doing i'm gonna keep doing it i'm gonna
throw all my money in there. 和 he's just like, I'm doing it 因为 I love to do it. 和 spending
time doing anything else 会 be an absolute distraction. 和 Nick Sleep talks 关于 这
因为 he's a capital allocator. He's not building a product, 但 he's making capital
allocation decisions. Like, do I need to sell 这 stock, put it 进入 another 一? I'm weighing my
opportunity costs. 和 he was haunted almost by 这 idea. If 你 look at financial history,
it's like he talked 关于 a financial firm 一 天 where they're like, okay,
我们 owned IBM in the 1950s. 和 I didn't know until I read Michael Dell's autobiography,
right 因为 ibm was it's like they're the most powerful 和 wealthiest company in the world when
me 和 你 were born okay 和 michael dell's like 你 have to understand like 1987 对于 me to like
yell out to my dad he's like what do 你 want to do 对于 a living he's like i want to compete 与
ibm i'm in i'm a 19 year old in my dorm room 与 a thousand dollars like what kind of grandiose
ambition do 你 have i went 和 started like why is 这 so crazy 和 i started it's like it was
the most valuable company in the world by market cap at the time it's the 首先 company to go over
$100 billion in market cap, right? 和 这 little 19-year-old kid's like, no, I think I 可以
have a go at them. 但 Nick Sleep talks 关于, he came 进入 这 firm 和 he's reading how they
talk 关于 their investments. 和 我们 made a massive mistake. 我们 owned IBM in the 1950s 和 我们 sold.
和 they're having 这 conversation in the 1970s. 和 the leadership of the financial firm is like,
how do 我们 avoid not doing 这? They said, if 我们 just held 那, the gain 会 have been 更多
than all the assets 我们 have in 我们的 management.
Like, 我们 可以't do 这.
那 same year, they sold Walmart.
They had Walmart in the 1970s.
Wow.
So they made the same mistake.
和 Buffett, obviously, greatest investor of all time.
He met Walt Disney.
He went 和 talked to Walt Disney in like the 60s.
和 then I think he bought the stock at like 62 cents 或 something.
Right.
§09Transcript — part 9
和 he had like a 2X 或 4X game.
He's like, oh, I sold Disney.
Yeah.
So 那's why I was like, oh, the best financial decisions
are not financial decisions at all.
你're doing it 对于 another reason,
which is exactly what 你 said.
It's like all Sam had to do
was just keep doing Walmart.
It's exactly what he did.
I remember I obviously live in Miami
on a friend's boat in the marina there.
和 there's like the boat
like bigger than anything else 大约 there.
It's like, 和 你 可以 Google like who owns it.
It was like, it was Sam Walton's brother's daughter.
Right, right.
Yeah, yeah.
It's crazy.
但 I think 你're on to something 重要,
which is 这 notion 大约 just innately focusing
和 solving problems 天 by 天 builds quality, right?
和 so quality 对于 me is 更少.
Quality 对于 me is 专注.
Quality 对于 me is improving 天 by 天.
All of 这些 things build quality, 和 quality is rare.
Quality in 人们 is rare.
Quality in ideas is rare.
和 我们 tend to make 这些 things binary.
和 我们 talked 关于 it 与 人们.
Like I'd rather have 那 person 那 has 一 good idea in an entire 小时 和 the rest is crap than someone who has, 你 know, 10 decent ideas 但 nothing is amazing.
So 那 sort of differential equation between the 1% versus the rest is so 重要 和 so 重要 to understand.
和 I think it's, 我们 again, take it literally.
我们 know 关于 it 因为 我们 可以 explain it in hindsight, 但 我们 don't know when it's happening.
So what is 那 qualitative process?
What defines quality as it's happening 之前 你 可以 see it objectively 从 the outside?
那些 things are interesting.
和 I'm 更多 和 更多 drawn towards 那 it is, 对于 me at least, 非常 much looking at the 人们 in it 和 looking at how they build judgment over time, the sort of feedback loop they create, the curiosity 那 they have 关于 这 和 the obsession they have 关于 trying to achieve the impossible.
和 对于 me, the impossible is something 那's perfect.
It's 从不 going to exist.
The whole universe is 这 thing where the only thing 我们've learned, 我们 keep debating all 这些 things 关于 the universe, 但 the only thing 我们 know is it's not static.
It moves.
It cannot by definition be like 这 一 thing.
It's just constantly expanding 或 contrasting 或 it's moving.
So perfection just doesn't exist.
但 the aspiration towards perfection is a remarkable thing.
I mean, I love Japan 对于 这 reason, right?
你 find 这些 amazing 个体 那 literally spend their entire life.
I was in Japan maybe 10 天 ago 或 something.
和 I was in 一 of 这些 temples 与 a tea master who literally all he's done 对于 the past 34 years is perfecting how to make tea.
那's it.
Nothing else.
和 yes, the tea is amazing.
但 it's not just 那.
It's just seeing 那.
obsession 关于 quality is seeing 那 obsession 关于 being not even 一 percent 但 like 0.1%
或 0.01% in something 和 I think feel like 你 你 sort of asked 关于 AI 和 all 这些 things
和 和 我们 可以 talk 关于 art too 但 like 对于 me like 那 is going to be even rarer like average
is going to be 可能 to do even better than average is going to be 可能 to do 与 AI
但 那 sort of thing 关于 这 guy doing 这 对于 30 years, just becoming the 非常, 非常 best 关于 what they do, 或 even what I find incredibly inspiring by 你 is just the relentlessness every single 天 towards the long term.
It's like, as 你 say, it's the paradox 关于 the long-term mindedness, 但 the obsession on the daily basis 和 against conventional odds, against all 这些 other things.
因为 I 会 imagine, I don't know, 但 I 会 imagine like when 你 started Founders, probably not many 人们 knew who 你 were.
Nobody.
Nobody, right?
和 so the competition 对于 你的 time, there was none.
So 你 could probably sit 对于 six 小时 或 eight 小时, et cetera.
但 today, it's much harder 因为 there's many other things.
There's 人们 like myself 和 other 人们.
和 你're like, oh, wait a 分钟.
Maybe 这 is a good idea to meet 这 person.
或 there's a business opportunity 那 shows up.
和 maybe 人们 are asking, look, maybe 你 应该 invest.
和 maybe 你're tempted 关于 it even.
但 it's 这 is the thing 那 happens all the time 和 这 is how greatness gets evaporated is
你 lose 专注 那's a great line greatness gets evaporated a lot of the stuff like when i talk on
the podcast 或 everything i say on social media is like reminders to myself 因为 i just read
reread past highlights 因为 like 我们 forget 那 我们 forget 和 so i need a reminder 和 it
just came across 一 it's just like uh i've had them presented to me in a random order so it's
like i 从不 know what i'm going to read 那 天 和 it said uh there's a buffet it's like a
The difference between successful 人们 和 确实 successful 人们 is 确实 successful 人们 say no to everything.
Yeah.
和 这 is exactly the constant thing where, like, I do have a question 对于 你.
一, going back to 那, it's like I 可以't even explain why I did what I did 因为, like, I had close to no traction 对于 five 和 a half years.
和 now I look back, I was like, there's no way I 会 do 那 today.
Yeah.
但 somehow 那 person who I now greatly appreciate 和 love, he feels like a 不同的 person.
Yeah.
I cannot believe 那 is like what I'm most proud of is not like trying to make something 那's great, which I think is a selfish thing 对于 us.
It's like, yes, when 你 释放 it to the world, 你 释放 Spotify, 你 do all 这些 things.
It's an act of service to other 人们, 但 你're also doing it 因为 like 你, 你 have to, it has to come out.
但 I just cannot believe 那 I did 那.
和 I'm just like, 那's the thing I'm most, 更多, most proud of than anything else.
Just like I had to do 这.
I was willing to like drive Uber if I had to, tend bar, do literally whatever.
I was like, just give me enough time.
I'll figure it out.
Now I didn't think it was going to take half a decade to figure it out.
你 have a ton of stories 与 Spotify 与 那.
There is no line I feel between like 你的 work 和 你的 life.
Like they're 一 和 the same.
The issue 那 I'm having now 和 in general is 那 I feel a lot of pressure 因为 like I'm trying to change not just my life, 但 like the trajectory of like my entire family.
和 I feel 非常 guilty when I don't work to the point where like, 你 know, I just got back 从 a crazy trip 那 人们 会 love to go on.
和 I just felt guilty 对于 not 对于 like taking time out 和 off 和 not working.
和 I feel like 这 is like almost like a compulsion, like I don't have control over it.
Do 你 have anything like 那?
Sure.
I do feel the same thing, of course.
但 I'm back to sort of time versus 能量 和 management.
和 I don't know 关于 你, 但 I feel like the greatest ideas I've had comes 从 the most weird 和 wonderful places where I expected nothing out of it.
So quite 经常 when I do take some time off, I come back 与 like 二 或 三 和 some entirely new insights 那 just wouldn't have come if I just kept grinding 那 thing.
by just changing a scenery, being in a 不同的 frame of 心智,
pausing, giving, 你 know, it's in the creative process.
你 know, the greatest artists talk 关于,
some of the greatest songs literally take five 分钟 to write.
Yeah.
Which is amazing, right?
但 some songs are the ones 你 like work on it,
你 put it in a drawer 和 six months later,
totally unbeknownst to 你, it clicks.
你're not even working on 那 thing.
It's just sort of like, oh, 那's it.
和 they go back 和 they do the song 和 it's like the greatest song ever.
There's not 一 path to greatness.
There's many.
和 I feel like 那's why I'm so obsessively focused on 能量.
So 你 mean 能量 is like 你 just let 那 guide 你?
Yeah.
It's like, hey, if I need a break right now, if I need to go 对于 a walk 或 if I need to go spend time 与 my wife 和 kids 或 like.
Yeah.
Is 那 what 你 mean?
Yeah, 100%.
和 I try to feel 那
I feel like so much of 我们的 life
Just rips us apart 从 这 thing
和 tries to get us on a schedule per se
和 it's not like I don't have a schedule
Of course I do have 一
但 I feel so much of it 应该 be 更多 guided
By trying to understand ourselves 更多 intimately
So I don't know if 你've heard of 这
但 going back to sleep
There's been 这 kind of thing 大约 更多 recently, which I was surprised.
一 of my 10-year-old daughter told me 关于 这 is 大约 那 actually, 你 know, she sort of said like 我们 have 这 idea of eight 小时.
和 she actually mentioned instead 那 the real notion is 那 我们 kind of did it almost like fasting.
Like Ramadan is, 你 know, it's based on the sun.
和 sometimes it could be six 小时 或 sometimes it could be 12 小时.
So it used to be the sleep was actually in 二 periods.
So 你 didn't sleep 一 consecutive thing.
你 sort of had a 三, four 小时 sleep.
和 then, 你 know, 你 woke up 和 then 你 had another 三, four 小时 sleep again.
和 so much of 那 was based on light.
和, 你 know, maybe it was driven by other things 那 were happening in 我们的 life too.
和 对于 Nordic 人们, what it actually meant, going back as late as the 18th century, 之前 我们 started having electric lights 和 candles 和 all 这些 things, is 我们 actually slept a lot 更少 on the summers 和 我们 slept a lot 更多 in the winters, guided by lights.
So 我们 keep thinking it's the static thing, 但 it's actually, again, driven by the environment 大约 us. 和 so much of 这 sort of innate knowledge 关于 listening to ourselves, understanding 我们的 innate personality, understanding hunger.
Like I 可以 tell 你 as someone, I've gained in periods of my life like 40 pounds in my worst negotiations, et cetera.
和 一 of the problems I have now is 那 I literally don't know when I'm hungry 因为 I ruined 那 sort of natural feeling in my 身体 of understanding when I'm hungry 和 when I'm not hungry.
um so um 你 know huge part of losing weight 对于 me over the past few years was just 确实 kind
of innately starting to listening to my 身体 again 和 like starting to figure out what
satiation means 因为 对于 me 对于 instance i don't feel it until 20 分钟 之后 so like if
if i didn't like sort of eye what i 应该 eat i 会 just keep eating way 更多 than i 应该
um 和 so much of me has just been portion sizing of like understanding okay well 那's probably
going to be enough. 和 it doesn't feel like enough at 那 moment 因为 I ruined my 身体,
但 20 分钟 later, I understand it. 和 so I'm just trying to sort of, again,
convey 这 sort of thing 关于 understanding who 你 are, choosing the game 你're playing
和 realizing 那 life is not 一 game, 但 it's a thousand games. 和 there's 这 brilliant quote
by 这 guy called Kwame Appiah 那 is another 一 of 那些 things.
I just circled it. Perfect timing. No, 我们're in perfect alignment. Go ahead.
Well, I'm probably going to ruin the exact 一, so maybe 你 可以 read it.
Okay, I'll read it.
It's, in life, the challenge is not so much to figure out how best to play the game.
The challenge is to figure out what game 你're playing.
Yeah.
和 对于 me, realizing 那, it's just been eye-opening, right?
It's another 一 那's on my wall.
因为 I feel like quite 经常 when I'm talking to 人们
和 they're talking 和 trying to get life advice,
they're not playing their game.
They're playing someone else's game.
They're certainly not playing the game they want to be playing,
但 they somehow think 那 life is just 一 game
where actually so much is 关于 choosing the right game 对于 你.
和 so, yeah, I keep coming back to 那.
like 能量 management is the same thing.
你've got to like create the environment 大约 你
那 你 want to do.
你've got to choose 你的 game.
和 when 你 do 那 和 你 start understanding 那,
你 start becoming superhuman
in 你的 ability to get things done.
Do 你 have 更多 或 更少 negative self-talk today
than 你 did 20 years ago?
I'm 更多 comfortable 与 who I am
Um, then I was 20 years ago.
I was still 非常 much, my whole life, I've been a searcher.
I've been, um, 你 know, uh, when I was 确实 young in my teens, I went to every 可能
religious meetup 你 could be.
Uh, I went to everything.
Uh, I went to Hare Krishna centers.
I went to, to, um, 你 know, um, uh, Jewish centers, um, 你 know, mosques.
I went to everything.
§10Transcript — part 10
和 I try to learn as much as 可能 因为 I truly believe not enough 人们 are like – I've 总是 been surprised why 更多 人们 aren't interested in where 我们 come 从 和 what the purpose is of life.
对于 me, 那些 are sort of some of the greatest questions 那 I, like many others, don't have any idea, obviously, what 会 happen.
但 I think they're 确实 重要.
So I've 总是 been a searcher.
和 I think 那 actually sort of like led me to sort of also be a searcher 关于 myself too.
和 trying to find sort of who I am.
但 the older I've gotten,
the 更多 和 更多 things
have started clicking 关于 myself
和 the 更多 unapologetic I am 关于.
和 so 你的 inner monologue gets 更少 harsh?
Yeah, 因为 like, 你 know,
not only do 你 stand out quite a lot
as an entrepreneur
和 my interests were widely 不同的
than my social 回路 growing up
和 all 这些 things.
但 the 秒 thing is I'm an introvert.
So, 你 know, 那 doesn't help.
So most 人们 like being 大约 a lot of 人们 和 they get 能量 从 it.
I didn't.
So 那 obviously naturally gets 你 to question yourself.
和, 你 know, against many others as an entrepreneur, I'm not the most eloquent person.
I'm not the smartest.
你're pretty damn eloquent.
Well, I had to work on it.
那's like the hard thing.
I 确实, 确实 am.
Listen, I've listened to all 你的 interviews 和 I did 这 之前 我们 were friends.
和 every time something comes out, it's like, oh, I got to watch 那.
你're not giving yourself enough credit.
Like 你 are a 非常 clear communicator.
Thank 你.
Yeah.
但 it's 确实 a work product.
Like I wish there was 更多 recorded stuff on myself when I was like 20 和 21.
Not me.
I was not great.
I was quite terrible.
和 so I've just learned 那 it's a superpower 和 something I have to work on is getting my message across to other 人们
to believe what I'm believing 和 see what I'm seeing in order to get them to want to come 和
join whatever thing 我们're trying to 会 进入 这 world. I have 二 更多 questions 那 I'm
personally curious 关于. 一 is going to be a 非常 weird question, 但 the 首先 一 is,
do 你 feel 不同的? Okay. So like most of the 人们 watching 这 或 listening to 这,
like so few 人们 are going to be born in the projects in a tiny little, 我们 didn't even,
我们'll have to do 这 every year if 你're fine 与 it.
因为 the idea 那 你 even come 从 这 tiny little island, which I got to visit, 和 then 你're competing 与 the biggest companies in the world 和 你 win.
我们 didn't even get there.
但 你 grow up, 你 have a great mom, 你're a single family, not a lot of money.
和 then now, what I'm curious 关于 is like 你的 lived experience is so – there's so few 人们 alive 那 可以 actually empathize 与 那 因为 they also had it.
So I'm 非常 curious.
Do 你 feel 不同的?
um 和 what i mean by it is like as 你've grown 从 你 know a kid in the projects yeah even if
你 had early success to now being 你 know 一 of the most successful entrepreneurs on the planet
which i know don't do the face 但 it's an undeniable fact like do 你 feel 不同的
i think yes 和 no um so i i feel 不同的 in in the same way a 40 year old 会 feel 不同的
than a 10-year-old 会 do.
I feel 不同的 in,
I'm a product of all the experiences of my life.
和 obviously I've been incredibly fortunate to,
I was counting the other 天,
I've been to like 130 countries 或 something in my life.
I've seen so many cultures, so many 人们,
I have friends all over the world.
All of 那 has shaped me 进入 who I am.
I don't feel 不同的 因为 innately,
many of the things, the drive, the long-termness, the obsession, 这 sort of willingness on
the paradox of winning on the 一 hand, 但 then also trying to truly find a win-win 和
work 与 人们 to try to find a win-win, which is 确实 重要 to me, has 总是
been there.
和 it's 总是 been 这些 things.
和 like 你 said, 你 know, 你 kind of look back at yourself a few years back when 你 started off 和 say, wow, how did I do 这?
和 你're amazed at 那.
I 可以 feel the same way 关于 young Daniel.
I 可以 feel myself 关于 the young Daniel 那 worked every weekend, 你 know, nonstop, 24-7, sacrificed so many things, so many summers, so many other things.
你 know, I had a blast doing so, 但 I didn't have a normal upbringing just 因为 I was so obsessed 关于 learning, so obsessed 关于 making it.
和 it put me in the position of where I am today.
和 I actually feel like I owe 那 guy to keep pushing myself, right?
因为 there's so many things.
There's so many demands of my time, so many things 那 tells me to sort of downshift gear 进入 an easier gear 因为 life 会 be a lot 更多 comfortable 那 way.
这 is not a comfortable thing.
No, it goes back to impact to happiness.
So I think I text 这 to 你.
Um, 但 一, 一 of the roles 你 play, 和 I'm 非常 grateful 那 你 allowed us to like
record 这 conversation 因为 本质上 what I texture is like, 你 seem to have like
no self-imposed ceiling on what 你 可以 learn 或 achieve.
和 那 spending time 与 你 then transfers 那 belief to other 人们.
和 so like every single time, 你 know, I obviously like, I take notes of like what
I learned 从 the conversation 我们 have 之后 the fact.
和 I interpret it.
It's like, obviously not verbatim.
I'm saying like, what did I just learn 从 Daniel?
What does apply to me?
He's like, oh, 你 have all 这些, 你 think 你 don't, I thought like I was ambitious 和 I, like, I didn't even realize till 你 kind of pulled the scales off my eyes.
Like 你 have 这 like limiting belief 那 你 have no limits.
There is no limits in life.
和 so like 你're a hell of inspiring.
一 other question 对于 你.
I'm obsessed 与 Game of Thrones to an unhealthy degree.
I rewatched the series all the time.
I've read all the books.
I read the encyclopedia.
I'll read the family histories 因为 I do think like, like 你 可以 learn a lot 从 human nature 和 fiction.
和 my job 和 my obsession requires me to – 99% of my reading is nonfiction 和 I don't – I want to read 更多 fiction.
和 I came across something recently 因为 I'm going 通过 Jeff Bezos' shareholders again 和 then I read like what was my interpretation of 这 in the past?
和 then I came across something 那 was fascinating.
There's a story in the prequels of Game of Thrones where 二 brothers are fighting in 这 war.
一 of the brothers was pulled 进入 the war 那 did not want to be there, 和 he made the sacrifice
因为 it was 对于 the good of his family. He wound up dying in the war 那 he didn't want to
fight in the 首先 place. 和 his brother 那 survived, got his remains, buried him,
和 then put him in a grave 与 only 一 word on his tombstone. 和 那 一 word was loyal.
So hopefully, a hundred years 从 now, when 你 do have a tombstone, if there was only going to
me 一 word on 那 tombstone, what 会 你 want it to be?
I don't think too much anymore.
I used to think a lot 关于 how other 人们 saw me 或 see me.
I don't do 那 anymore.
so I 会
choose 更多 of a
self-reflective 一
和 I wish
only 一 thing
on my tombstone
future 一
it feels absurd
talking 关于 it
但
会 be 那
he lived
那's a great 一
那's a great way
to end it
Daniel I'm thankful
对于 你的 time
thankful 对于 你的 friendship
你're 一 of the 人们
I most admire
和 I 确实 appreciate
doing 这
well thank 你 so much
和 it's such a huge honor to be 你的 首先 guest in 这 series.
Of course.
Thank 你 so much.
I hope 你 enjoyed 这 episode.
Please remember to subscribe wherever 你're listening 和 leave a review.
和 make sure 你 listen to my other podcast, Founders.
对于 almost a decade, I've obsessively read over 400 biographies of history's greatest entrepreneurs,
searching 对于 ideas 那 你 可以 use in 你的 work.
Most of the guests 你 hear on 这 show 首先 found me 通过 Founders.