Maisie Williams: The Painful Past Of A Game Of Thrones Star
嘉宾：Maisie
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§01Transcript — part 1
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They were asking the right questions.
We can stop as much as you want, by the way. We don't have to carry on.
Maisie Williams is in the house! Game of Thrones is the biggest show on television. Game of Thrones flipped my whole world on its head. I sometimes worry that I'm alienated because it all happened when I was so young. Like, literally from the age of 12, I've been set for life.
I had a traumatic relationship with my dad. Ever since I can remember, I've really struggled with sleeping. It had met its peak while I was at school. I was taken by a teacher to the staff room. She was saying, "What's happened?"
I think a lot of the traumatic things that were happening, I didn't realize that they were wrong. I would look around at other kids and be like, "Where does the joy come from? When does that come for me?"
When you were 22, you talked about issues with substance abuse.
Yeah, I just had that sense of impending doom, and I didn't know how to make it go away.
I'm going to come and give you a hug.
Without further ado, I am Stephen Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.
So, take me back to Somerset. What do I need to know to understand who you are now? What do I need to know about that part of your life?
Well, I as a young child before the age of eight, had quite a traumatic relationship with my dad. I don't really want to go into it too much because it affects my siblings and my whole family. But that really consumed a lot of my childhood.
Ever since I can remember, I've really struggled sleeping. I think a lot of the traumatic things that were happening, I didn't realize they were wrong. But I knew that I would look around at other kids and be like, "Why don't they seem to understand this pain or dread or fear?"
Where does the joy come from? When does that come for me? I always felt things very deeply in comparison to other people. So, when that period of my life ended, I imagined that everything was just up from here, everything is perfect now. All those things I was concerned about were actually wrong and now I'm free.
Then, at different stages in life, you realize there's never an end destination for that freedom. It kind of comes from within, I guess. Like, when are you going to let yourself be free from the pain? But yeah, that really consumed a lot of my childhood. That was what I identified myself as for a long time.
Then everything changed, and I sort of became this character who wouldn't let anything bad happen to her or anyone around her. I guess maybe there is some sort of connection between those two things.
Your mother left your father?
Yeah, before I was born, actually. Well, she escaped when I was about four months old. So, it was bad before that.
Have you spoken about this before?
No. I don't know, I like you. I feel like this is something that I've been learning a lot about recently, and I feel like I can speak about it now.
Has it taken you time to connect the dots? I ask because at 25 years old, there were foundational things I learned about myself that I only just learned. Sometimes you read something or hear something and you go, "Damn, that explains this thing." Did it take you time to connect those dots?
Yeah, definitely. I think people talk about rewiring your brain—people on your podcast actually speak about it—but in order to do that, you have to recognize when your brain is doing a pattern you want to rewire.
Quite often, it's already triggered so many things, and you're in a bad mood and have no idea why. It's hard to trace back from that point. So, that awareness and finding that kind of had to come first for me.
When I really started to understand it, it was about capturing those minutes where I was like, "Why does that make me feel really uncertain or angry or make me want to shout at someone? What is that?" Then you can start to go, "No, it's okay," and work your way back.
So you were seeing social triggers or situations where you were... I saw you say when you spoke to Lewis Howes, you said, "I've always been quite an anxious person."
Yeah.
I reflect on that because I'm not an expert in anxiety, though I've been anxious myself at times. I've always wondered if we're born that way, or if we're predisposed, or if something happens and then we become anxious. Have you connected any dots regarding being an anxious person to those early years as you've grown up?
Yeah, I guess I think a lot of that anxiety, as I started to recognize it, came from not really being myself. Then feeling anxious about the way you're being perceived, but knowing that you're not really being honest.
That will, of course, make you very anxious because if you have no idea who you're projecting, then you really have no idea how other people are going to hear it. You don't even know how you mean it. That facade of whoever I thought was capable of getting through interviews or social settings...
I think that struggle with identity and the big questions of "Who am I?"—I think everyone struggles with that. But I think there's a period of your childhood where certain situations can really stunt or just alter forever who you're going to become.
That's not to say that you can't also just become a very peaceful and content and fulfilled person. But that basic instinct of "What brings me joy?"—you kind of second-guess that a lot as a kid. You don't know whether to trust what you really think or feel or what the mental manipulation is. That can have lasting effects.
Discovering that and being like, "Yes, I struggle with my identity and knowing who I am, so that brings me anxiety because I don't know who to be in a social situation." But then also going back far enough that you're like, "Oh, I don't know if that person really exists anymore, and that's okay because I can find a good version of myself."
How about you? What do you think about that?
About which part?
I guess it feels like a lot of people are trying to retreat to being a child and the things that brought you joy and who you are at your core, who you are when no one's looking. But can that part of you be so damaged from a very young age that you could be searching for something that is just for you to make up rather than something that exists?
It's a really interesting question. One I've never even pondered before. I was thinking about Lewis Howes and I think shortly after you had a conversation with him, he opened up for the first time. It's so funny because when I rewatched your conversation with Lewis, you start sharing things that were difficult in your early years.
You don't share anything like this with him, and then he says to you—he's quite stoic—he goes, "Yeah, I went through things like that as well." You're aware of what he went through?
Yeah, I am now.
He went through horrific child abuse at a young age from a babysitter who was looking after him. He talks about how he feels he has to go back and forgive the child he was and heal the child.
He has his face at that age on his wallpaper of his phone. With his therapist, he's worked through healing that young version of himself and then moving on to the teenage years. Do I know if that child we're seeking still exists in there? My very naive assumption would be that they do. Are they still going to be childlike?
I don't know. There's something quite naive about being childlike, which maybe wisdom makes irreversible. When you talk about joy and struggling to feel joy at a young age, what is that? How do I understand those words?
I think when you watch kids play, there are struggles and tiffs, but there's just complete inhibition, right? It's just running or going on the slide. I felt like I would often stop in a situation like that. I'd be doing something and then I would just stop and be like, "Something awful is going to happen." I just couldn't continue.
You want a tissue?
Maybe.
Jack, can you grab a tissue, please? We can stop as much as you want, by the way. We don't have to carry on. It's the great thing about podcasting. Just keep them on the desk if you want.
I'll hide them around the other side.
Is that off camera? Yeah, it's all good.
I just had that sense of impending doom and I didn't know how to make it go away. I had great memories, it's hard to remember a lot of them. A lot of those times that I felt very free, I was actually on my own. But I would never have thought I was like an introverted person. I always would have thought that I was quite extroverted because I perform a lot for people.
But yeah, I struggled with that when I was a kid and just thought, "How do I stop feeling like this and just feel like everything's okay?"
But at that age, I'm guessing you didn't know why you felt like that. So knowing how to go about healing from it is an impossible task. You can't solve for something that you're not aware of.
Yeah, going "Nothing's wrong, everything's the way it's supposed to be." But it wasn't. But I just would tell myself that. "What is wrong with you?"
Was there an age or a moment when you found out what was wrong?
When I was about eight, quite a complex string of events happened. But basically, it had met its peak. I was at school and I guess I was really struggling. I don't really know what happened, but I was taken by a teacher to the staff room. She was saying, "What's wrong? What's happened? Are you hungry?"
I said, "Yeah." She said, "Did you eat breakfast?" and I said, "No." She asked why not, and I said, "We just didn't have any breakfast." Then she asks, "Do you normally have breakfast?" and I said, "Not really." They were asking the right questions.
I'm going to come and give you a hug. I feel really compelled to give you a hug. You okay?
Yeah.
No, I do think it's important because I had so many people who loved and cared about me so much, but I'd never been asked the right questions where I could really say what was wrong.
My mum came to school and picked me up, and my siblings were also at secondary school at the time. Some of them were with mum, and one was not; they were with dad still.
It was the first time that all of the doors were sort of open and all of these things that we were experiencing were out on the table. It was really, really hard because I still wanted to fight and say, "No, these things aren't bad. You're trying to take me away from my dad and that's wrong."
Because I was like indoctrinated in a way. I think that's why I'm obsessed with cults. I'm like, "I get it. I get it. I was in a child cult against my mother." So I really was sort of fighting it at the beginning. But basically, my whole world flipped on its head.
Even though all these things that I was feeling, I thought, "Oh my god, I'm so glad I don't have to see my dad anymore," it still was like against everything that I had ever known to be true. I don't know if I'm being too cryptic.
I don't think you are. You can be as cryptic as you want to be. I understand what you're saying, and that's the part that I need to get the context. You can talk as much as you want in terms of what makes you comfortable. I don't know where your line is.
When I watch cult documentaries, there's a lot of manipulation that goes on. There's a lot of fear that causes silence. That's usually why people find it difficult to leave those situations. Then when they do, I always observe this conflicting array of emotions. They have this love for this person, but at the same time, once out of that situation, they are probably spiritually free and happy to be gone. That conflict of emotions always fascinated me, how two truths can almost exist in the same place.
You can feel so liberated and free, and at the same time, just like that impending doom is kind of still there. Your problems don't just go away. You still care a lot about that person, or you still sort of understand the pain or whatever that led to those very, very poor decisions.
As you sit here today at 25 years old, how do you feel about your father?
Well, to be honest with you, I've been thinking about this a lot. I've been trying to do this thing where I stop taking things personally. Not just like when someone's had a bad day and they push in front of you in the queue, but like the big things in life.
What if I said that it wasn't because of me that that happened? If I wasn't there, it would have been someone else. It wasn't because there's something wrong with me that these bad things happened when I was a child.
Is that a thought you had?
Yeah. I felt like there was something inherently wrong with me, or us, because we did lots of things wrong all the time, which is why you'd be mistreated. You're like, "Oh, we really need to be better at this because we keep doing things wrong and we keep getting in trouble."
But then I was like, well, especially because it was a parent and I felt like they're supposed to like you. But then I was like, what if there's just no connection between me being his daughter and like, it could have been literally anyone experiencing that pain and it would have been the same.
Then I kind of could separate myself from it a little bit, and I could start to sort of reflect on him as a person and be like, "What happens that you get so stuck in your mind that you can just permanently mistreat people? Children. Your own children."
Taking that step back and seeing it more objectively kind of makes me quite interested in the guy. I don't know him at all. And I'm like, "What happened to you when you were a kid? Who were your parents? Is this something that you were always like? Did you pull the legs off bugs or did you learn this?"
These are all the questions that I would ask.
Yeah. And so that's kind of how I feel about it now where I'm just like, "What if? He would make a fascinating documentary." It's nice to not feel the personal pain of that anymore and actually just think... I don't know if any of the answers to that will help me in my journey, but it is sort of a nicer way to think of him than as someone who doesn't love me or like me.
You talked about that feeling that you were to blame for outcomes in your life that you weren't to blame for. Were there symptoms of that as you grew up? That feeling that when things happen, it was because you did something wrong or you were to blame? Did you feel that as an adult and in your teenagers at all?
Yeah, definitely. I think that I really wanted to control a lot of things that you just can't control because if I don't—if I'm not worrying or thinking about this or wanting to control this—then it's all going to fall down and then I'll blame myself and it'll be something that I could have done better or should have done differently.
I guess it was more just trying to control the uncontrollable and that then leading to another way that I could beat myself down.
It's interesting because I've seen so many other interviews you've done, and without knowing that early context, a lot of the things I was hearing didn't make sense. Not that they, you know—"make sense" is maybe an interesting use of words—but it always felt like there was a part of your story that was untold.
I think when I was 12 and I'd done a bit of Game of Thrones and was doing interviews, people were sort of being like, "But you're so young, how do you pretend? How do you show this pain? Like you've just seen the death of your father. How do you know that? How do you act that sort of fury?" I just in my head was like, "That's a really stupid question," because I've known how that feels.
It's something nice to just leave in the past, I guess, but it's hugely influenced everything that I do as an actor. I get to access all of that confusion and pain in my job, and I get to really feel it in every fiber of my being.
But there's no consequence and there's no—you're not really shouting at anyone or hurting someone. It's all pretend, but the emotion is real. Just being able to let that out is something that I didn't do for a long time. So it just all sort of came to the surface.
Holding the early part of my story to myself is also just because I haven't really understood it the way that I have now. And I'm sure I'll understand it far better in the future. But I feel now there's some closure to it where the journey might help other people, whereas before it was just pain, pain, pain, pain, pain and no conclusion.
No insight?
Right. It was just other problems that come from the same problem, problem, problem. But going into that audition to play Arya Stark, I was sort of surrounded by girls that were joyous and were free and were kids. They were kids who were happy.
And I thought, "Wow, I really am here we go again, going to be a disappointment." But for that moment, actually, that was what they needed. And so that was sort of a moment in my life where I was like, "Huh, maybe this thing isn't all bad. Maybe there can be something beautiful that comes from this part of myself that I find unnatural or just different to other kids."
"Here we go again, I'm going to be a disappointment." What do you mean by that? When you got the role, you presumed that you were going to let people down?
No, I just meant like going into the room. "Oh no, I'm not going to be what they're looking for." But I did end up being what they were looking for. I just, you know, assumed the worst a little bit.
Did you always ever feel like a disappointment to people?
Yeah, of course. There've been moments in my life where I've definitely felt like I've let myself down and other people down, and it's not a good feeling to sit with. But I think I've tried to channel it into making myself better.
I actually went for an audition at 14 years old to do the Junior Apprentice. You know The Apprentice? So they launched the Junior Apprentice and I went for the first audition, got through to the final 20, and then long story, but I got this email from the BBC saying that someone had leaked to the press that I was going on the show.
So they said this has jeopardized your chances of going on the show. I don't come from a family where we had much. So going back to Plymouth and telling everyone, "He's going to London," and then going back and saying like, "They've just called me and told me I'm not on the show," was devastating for a long time.
Lots of tears. I felt like a disappointment at that phase in my life and several times subsequently. But I think I've always been somewhat optimistic going into situations. I generally feel like I've got nothing to lose. I think maybe that's a bit of a privilege, to be honest. Mindset privilege is a real thing, just like perspective privilege.
Had I been in an early situation where someone was continually telling me the things that I were doing were wrong or not good enough or whatever, I can quite easily see how I would anticipate that feedback going into anything where feedback was going to be given.
It's actually pretty remarkable, because those early experiences you would assume would smash someone's self-esteem pretty severely and make them kind of retreat into safe places. One of the safest places is where we don't get feedback and someone doesn't shout at us. But this was your first audition, Game of Thrones?
One of the first. I had an audition before that which I was also very excited about and then didn't get. So that was like my first professional rejection.
But you were still putting yourself out there in situations where you could be rejected.
Yeah, definitely. And I think it was because the only time that I really felt that joy that I saw in other people was when I was dancing or performing. And there was this feeling that I would get that I was like, "This is like—I feel human," you know?
And so I was like, I've just got to do anything I can to do this forever. And so from a very young age I was like, "I want to go to stage school and I want to... yeah, I'm happy to leave everything and go and do that."
So I really—every opportunity was like... yeah, I guess that little part that you said like, "I've got nothing to lose." It was like, yeah, on the other side of this could be absolutely...
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...everything. So I have to do it.
I read this book—I say read, I watched the summary on YouTube, but I'll just say it sounds more impressive—I read this book called *The Body Keeps the Score*. One of the most fascinating things about it is it talks about how acting and moving the body, like yoga, have been proven to be the best forms of antidepressant. Like without taking SSRIs or anything.
I remember thinking, "Acting is a great antidepressant? How is that possible?" But what you're saying now rings true. It talks about how it kind of dissociates from identity when we act. So what you're saying now seems to validate what I read.
I'd love to read that, because that's like exactly what I instinctively discovered. It just happened and I thought, "Ah, like this is what I'm supposed to do."
Have you ever figured out why acting was a—I use the word escapism—but why it was so liberating for you? Is it because it dissociates you from your own identity? Is it because you can create this new...?
There's like two parts of it. It was like how I felt within my body. Everything floated away. The way that it felt to move my body or the way that it felt to contort my voice or whatever. It just like—that feeling when you like can't stop laughing. It was just like incredible.
And then there was the way that it made other people feel. I guess with dancing it was very much about the way that it felt and not necessarily the way that it looked or how other people would experience it. But with acting, it's like you get that sort of two-way thing. And I also saw the joy that it would bring other people.
I guess like you don't—you're like not a disappointment. You're like making someone laugh or you're making someone happy. And that was like, you know, fun and new.
I was going to say Game of Thrones was a smash hit, but that feels like a slight understatement.
I feel like smash hit is... yeah. It was huge.
The fame piece. I've had a smidge of fame. Like seven people know who I am. And sometimes it can be a little bit difficult. So I can't even imagine, especially with the sort of confounding factors of your age, trying to figure out who you are, becoming famous for being a character on a huge show, being in your sort of adolescent years. All of these things all at the same time. When you look back and—I remember you saying about how people were like forecasting your downfall because of all those factors.
Yeah. The strangest thing about it, the hardest thing I think, was like needing to articulate who I was and what I loved and the things that I didn't like and what I had an opinion on.
Yeah, that. I remember at the time being like, "Oh gosh, I really don't know anything about anything. I really need to know these things. I need to..." But then, you know, years later you go like, "Oh, I said that my favorite film was this and that's not true."
It's like you don't need to know any of that stuff. It's all just like a journey, right? It's all like there's never like an end.
What advice would you give that person? 13-year-old Maisie?
To be honest with you, like I wish that I had just like trolled it all a bit more. And like whatever I—instead of really digging deep and going, "Oh, what is the real...?" just like whatever you feel that day. That's okay, and it can change the next day. Because that is just like life.
You don't have to be beholden to anything that you've said or done. You can let it all go and like rip up the rulebook. I hated London, moved back to Manchester, went to New York, and then actually I'm going to come back to London. This is what I want now. And it's not going to be like something that you're like, "Oh, I wish I hadn't have done this." You're like, "No, this is what I want now."
And that's like—that's just sort of the way it is. So I kind of wish that I had just like, you know, not just like tortured myself to know what is the real answer to these like silly fun questions and then been like, "Oh no, I've like portrayed myself all wrong. This is not who I am." Because it's just—it's like water.
Would you change the timing of the events that happened in your life if you could? Like acting when you were super young?
The only thing I really feel—like we didn't have a lot growing up, but like I've never—you grew up on a council estate?
Mm-hmm. And like, you know, having—I always had like an awareness of how hard my mum worked, like raising us, giving us everything that she did, putting food on the table. But like I never—I remember like when I was sort of 18 and a lot of my friends started going to uni, getting jobs, whatever.
I was like, "I've never—even though I know what that struggle was like growing up—I've never like struggled to get a job or struggled to make rent or anything like that." And I think, not that I would change that, of course, like I'm so fortunate, but I guess like I never want to lose sight of like the perspective of just how fortunate that I've been and like just how tone-deaf it is for me to believe that I like would understand what it's like to struggle to make rent and want to be a creative person and not know whether to get like a sensible job or to like—because I don't know what that struggle is like at all.
So yeah, I don't know. I sometimes worry that I'm like alienated in some ways because it all happened when I was so young. Like literally from the age of 12 I've been like set for life. And that's like very different to how I was like before that age.
Is there a mixture of emotions surrounding that? Like being set for life at 12 as you grow up? Now I've sat here with a couple of guests who come from like a council estate or grew up in very difficult situations and they often express this kind of—I remember Jackmate doing it—express this kind of almost "guilt" is a bit of an interesting word, but like, "Why did I...?"
I remember Jack saying to me, "I can make thousands and thousands of pounds from just making YouTube videos and I watch my dad not make the same amount of money in like a year or whatever. And I could just make it from one YouTube video." He almost expresses this kind of, I don't know, guilt or injustice. Have you ever felt that?
Definitely. Just, yeah, real like the guilt around like allowing yourself to have nice things or do nice things because you're like able to. Like I felt like when I was a kid everything stopped happening and all my problems were going to go away. And then like all my problems didn't go away.
And then I was set for life when I was 12 and I thought all my problems were going to go away. And I was like, "Well, this doesn't—it's not like that unless all of my friends and family are that way too." Because like how are we all supposed to like be okay if only one person is okay?
And you know, you give people what you can, but you don't see the—that doesn't take the pain away for another person. It doesn't take the pain away for yourself. And then you realize that actually life is something else entirely. The biggest problem that a lot of people face is making money and like making enough money to live and like support their family. But being able to do those things isn't in it like the only thing that like makes you happy.
When you take that problem away, there's sometimes still a very hard discussion that you have to have with yourself where it's like a fundamental chat where you have to tell yourself that... well, I don't know. It's a lot of things. I don't want to take away from the fact that like having money enables you to like even be able to comprehend or like another set of problems.
Yeah, yeah, I know that that in itself is like an incredibly privileged position to be in. But money won't take the pain away. It will take like the stacking bills or, you know, or the fear of like losing your house, losing... it doesn't undo trauma. You can't buy...
You can't buy trauma away. Yeah. Yeah. Even if you can keep the heat on and the electricity and feed yourself, there's still for many people another level of trauma which money can't seem to solve for directly.
The post-Game of Thrones... You know I remember sitting here with one of the guys from One Direction, Liam Payne. And he talked about how post-One Direction, you he has this identity which is he is a part of a boy band. And then leaving that, it can be quite troublesome psychologically. Who am I? Where do I belong? How do I then go and find out who that person is and start creating for that and not just being this character, this member of a boy band that the world knows me for? Did you ever feel that post-Game of Thrones?
Yeah, in a way. But I felt like I had got to a point already within being in the show that I was like, "Oh, I feel like I'm like cosplaying as this like person I've created." And I don't think that this really is who I am.
So sort of leaving the show meant that I could leave that as well. You know, I kind of like wanted to like say the right thing and do the right thing and like act like I had everything figured out and like be a good role model and, you know, which is all very good things to want but it's like it wasn't like very authentic. It was like just like trying to be liked, I guess, right?
And then you're like, "Oh, I actually, you know, I don't want to do things that make people like happy because like I want to do things that make me happy." And like I want to represent myself the way that makes me feel most comfortable and not like just the way that's most like palatable or like whatever.
And so I'd already got to the point where I was like, "Oh, this isn't really me and I'm like desperate for something to just like drastically change so as I can like cut from that." And that's sort of what happened when the show ended. Then also sort of sped up by the pandemic and being like in solitary.
So I was kind of like very ready for that and it wasn't like, "Oh, who am I?" I was kind of like, "Oh, who could I be? What's next?"
21, 22 years old. How were those years for you? So this is like around the time the show is concluding. I think it concluded when you were 22.
Yes, when it came out, yeah. I just didn't really go out a lot and I just felt quite... I just, I don't know. It was just like the most successful it was ever going to be and it was like most people would recognize you on the street.
And like I had just got so like rehearsed at like, "Oh, thank you, that's so nice," and it just like everything I said and felt and did, it was just like, "Oh, none of this is like... I felt like very going through the motions of life." Where it was like, yeah... acting again.
It wasn't the hardest, most awful and traumatic, "Oh, it was like terrible." It wasn't. It was fine. But I just—I knew that something better was coming.
At that age though, 20 years old, how did you feel about yourself?
Oh, I didn't really have a very like good opinion of like myself and my self-image. It's—I forget that. I really didn't like myself that much. I don't know, I just—I just told myself that I was like awful and disgusting and like unattractive and unkind and like just like not a good person and like unlikable.
I just told myself that like every single day. And so in ways I sort of became like that because you just like beat yourself into like a mess, you know? Mind is quite powerful in that way.
Fern talks to me about this a lot. I know you did her podcast, right?
Yeah, yeah, I listened to her chatting about this on your podcast.
Do you know the origin of those—of that self-story? Like where it originates from? Obviously you have a thread that most people don't have, which is the world is giving feedback on you every day because you're in the press and you're a young woman and we know what that—that can be a pretty vicious thing. But do you know the origin of those self-stories?
I feel like I felt self-conscious like even before all of that. So it definitely was enhanced by that. But I think it came a lot earlier. And I'm actually still trying to figure this out, like at the moment with my therapist. We're trying to really trace that back.
A lot of this discovery has come through meditation. I've been doing a lot of transcendental meditation. And like there's something about going into that state that like brings up like a little ticket and I go, "Ah, like that's..." But I haven't quite figured out the answer to this one yet or where it like initially stems from.
But I've definitely felt like embarrassed of myself or ashamed or like, you know, thought, "Oh, like I'd be playing at a kid's house and thinking like their parent thinks that I'm like awful, I'm the child that all parents don't want their kids to hang out with."
I just felt this way about myself and I was like, you know, I wasn't trying to get them to do like naughty things or anything. I just was like a kid that was just... but I thought, "You know, I'm a..." Like I'd go to someone's house and I'd like my shoes are—maybe they're not in the right place and I haven't put my bag in the right and this parent is going to like not like me or like whatever.
I've like felt that like self-awareness to that degree where I've like critiqued and like beat myself up since I was very, very small. I don't really know where it comes from yet. I'll let you know.
Well, the question I naturally ask is when was the first time someone told you those things? I mean, the example of like, "Oh god, have I put my shoes in the wrong place? What happens if they're in the wrong place? And what's the consequence of my shoes being in the wrong place?" Because for me growing up, if my shoes were in the wrong place, there's not really a consequence for that.
I don't know. Well, I have some theories on it. But I don't know, it doesn't concern just me. Just like, I think that I've witnessed people just feeling like just them existing in one spot is like them just taking up too much room in this world. And I think that I've like just taken on a piece of that where like just living and breathing, like you're too much and like you're irritating. But it's not true, and if anyone ever feels like that, it's not true.
Because we can know these things are objectively not true, but this is the thing that really fascinates me. How can we have—how can we in one hand know that something is not true, yet seemingly we're not able to completely eradicate that story?
You know, I used to think, definitely used to believe before doing this podcast, that these stories we believe, this evidence we have whether it's wrong, true or false about ourselves, I used to believe that there was some way of just like erasing it. And you just—you do this, you do this, you tap your head, you wiggle your stomach like that, and then it's gone. Go to therapy twice, you do this, you spin around, and it's gone.
But no matter—like I don't think I've ever met a guest on this podcast that has gone through some kind of traumatic early experience in their life and has ever erased it. Ever. People will say they've, you know, they've built new evidence which counteracts it so that the new evidence makes the decisions in their life, but it's still there. And traumatic events can make it flare up. I'm one of—like I consider myself to be one of those people where I've got to be very aware of my triggers because, you know, they might take over the control room once in a while and start calling the shots.
I feel like just experiencing it all in the moment is interesting. And like not sort of predicting that there's like an end to it. But you go like, "Huh, I have been in this situation before and like last time I wasn't aware of these triggers and now I see exactly what wants to happen and I'm not going to do it."
And like there's the piece of your brain that's like actively making those decisions and going, but then there's the like—I don't know—consciousness or like, you know, the spirit that then observes it and goes, "Huh, like what happens next? Like you're playing a board game, right? And like something happens and then like you're sort of above it and you go, 'Where will this go next?'"
And every time that your brain doesn't manage to do that, it's not like going straight back to that place, that point. Even though like that's the way your body's reacting, it's like you're still at this point in the journey of life and this is how you're experiencing it in this moment.
And like it's not like, "Oh, you failed at like healing," because like there's no end to it. It's just you know, in this moment what can you—what can you learn? Your brain has gone back there even though like previously you've managed to avoid this or you've managed to sort of avoid a trigger or like, you know, rewire something.
But it hasn't this time. So it's like, "What can we learn from looking at it this time? How do I see it differently to a time when I would have like done this before?" And it just—it keeps going. Like every minute is like an opportunity to like see where it will go next. And it will never be erased because like it's a vital part of who you are and like without it, you would be an entirely different person.
It's like—what is that film? *Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind*. He like gets his relationship removed from his brain, basically. Well, I don't know if you've seen it.
I haven't, no. But I've heard about this thing called the eraser test, which they do on people.
Which sounds exactly the same. It's important. It's—it gives you all of the tools to make decisions in your life.
If I could give you an eraser, would you use it?
Not a single piece.
Why?
Because I feel—I think that there's a point in everyone's life where they experience firsthand that life is extremely unfair. And it can happen at any point and it's unavoidable, I think. Well, I don't know. This maybe isn't—in a few years I might have a different answer to this question.
But the things I experienced when I was a child, no person should ever experience at any point in their life. But it's taught me so much. And I feel this like complex, deep emotions that ultimately are what I use every single day as an actor. And I can recall those things and I'm—I don't know, I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful to understand the deepest pain and fear and also like the most liberating joy and freedom.
And like maybe you don't have to go through those awful, awful things to feel that, but I did. And you know, this spectrum of emotions that are like within me, I feel like incredibly fortunate for because I think that that is something that's different about me.
So you go through this phase after being 20, you go through quite significant—what's the word—self-disparaging, self-hate, as I've heard you describe it. You find it hard to think or say nice things about yourself. Have you overcome that? Because when you did that interview with Lewis, you were talking as if it was in the past.
Yeah, I desperately wanted it to be and I still do. I think that I've got like a lot better at it, but you know, whenever I sort of fall back into pain or whatever, it always comes back to like this fundamental feeling that like I'm just not worth like any of it. Like I'm just not worthy of like...
And that's like—it's hard to combat that when you're like, "Whoa, but I'm really, really talking to myself differently and really trying to put up boundaries and I'm trying to really respect myself and like do, you know, treat myself with some respect." And then you just like still get to this point where you're like, "Ugh."
So that's like difficult and like that is something that I struggle with and I have like, you know, periods of a long time where that doesn't happen and then, you know, periods where it comes back again. But yeah, just like keep combating it and telling myself that it's not true and that I am worthy of everything in life, of whatever I want from life.
Has anything helped truly? Not like we say, "Oh this helped, here's five tips to help you." Bullshit, bullshit, we write in our books and stuff. But has anything truly helped to advance that feeling of worthiness?
Yeah, I meditation and spirituality, which are two things I didn't have a relationship with for my whole life up until 2021. So yeah, five minutes ago. Just last year. Everything really changed after that point.
You did mushrooms, didn't you?
No! It was literally just transcendental meditation and then like a couple of very like surreal life-changing spiritual experiences just like in day-to-day life—not high or anything—that I just couldn't ignore and I felt like, "Oh, I'm—I'm not alone."
You know, like there's something else even on the hardest days, like there's something here that's like going to be there, like going to, you know, take care of me. Yeah. And so that's like easier to then just like keep going, you know?
When you were 22, you talked about previously having issues with substance abuse?
Yeah, well, yeah.
Did you talk about that, or have I just inferred that from you using the word substance?
I feel like I spoke about this a little bit on Lewis. But like and I don't want to undermine it, but I guess who am I to say like what normal teenagers do and what normal teenagers don't? But like, you know, I took a lot of party drugs and like partied when I was a teenager. And I was in the position where like I could buy more. But I didn't really do that, you know, to a terrible degree.
We all partied.
Yeah. And but it was like definitely something that I was like, "I need to stop doing this if I want to like feel happiness." Because that's a slippery slope, especially things like very accessible things like alcohol even. I've had people very close to me that have become alcoholics because of, you know, trauma they've been through and stuff like that.
Do you drink now? What's your relationship like with alcohol and stuff?
No, not really. I mean, I don't—I'm not like sober, but I don't—I don't really drink like in the house or like on a weeknight type thing. It's usually like with dinner or like, you know, at a gig or with friends or yeah. But yeah, a lot of that is like quite a welcome release, I guess. It wasn't something that I struggled with.
You were so busy as well. If you're filming like 250 filming days per season or per year or something?
Yeah, I mean the whole production. But yeah, exactly. It was—it was, you know, very busy schedule, a lot of sleep needed to get through that.
Before we started recording, we talked a bit about Reuben.
Yeah.
Your voice changed when I mentioned Reuben. And you're wearing a shirt—a t-shirt that he designed?
Yes, created. Inspired by these artists called Jean-Claude and Christo, a husband and wife who wrapped a bunch of iconic landmarks and buildings in fabric. It's quite cool.
It's very me. So when I'm not wearing all black to try and be stoic and ominous on this podcast... How has it been going through trying to figure out romantic love? That was a very difficult thing for me as I talked about earlier, but how has it been for you? What's that journey been like?
I think that I definitely like resonated when you spoke about rejecting a lot of like relationships, friendships, or whatever because it's like cringe or like not real or whatever. I feel like I definitely spent a lot of time doing that and I never really confronted the part of myself that I don't know was like desperate to love and be loved but didn't really know how or didn't really know what that looked like or whatever.
I never had relationships where I was like mistreated, but that was mostly because like my trauma response was like whenever there was like any hint of like I don't know conflict, I was like, "Mm, I'm out." Like, "No, I don't—I've seen this one before and I'm not going to be hoodwinked by this."
But like the truth is, is like they were just like nice people and I just ran away like, you know, and cut off like whatever emotions were there and just like, "I'm really sorry, like it's not really going to work" type thing. And then, you know, confronted with someone like Reuben who—confronted!
I met someone who whenever I would start doing that and start going like, "Ugh," they—he like saw it within me and was like, "You see what you're doing? Like you're—you're like trying to sabotage yourself again. And like you can do that, like I'm not going to stop you."
That was the first time that like someone was patient enough, you know, even though you're really trying to push them away, to be like, "That's fine. Like I'm not trying to like tell you not to, but like just observe what is happening right now and like you can sleep on it, fine. Like you can sleep on it for a month if you want to, fine, like whatever."
§02Transcript — part 2
And it was the first time that yeah, I realized this pattern that I hadn't been able to capture—catch—before. And um, yeah, it's been incredible. It's been like four years now and we live together and um... I've like never—never knew that like peace and joy and like happiness and like like coexisting with another person could be this way. I never saw this in my life and like it's just all new and like yeah, all beautiful.
So interesting how sometimes it takes a certain person to like get over that wall. You know, and it's funny because I feel the exact same way. We try and stop people getting over the wall because it feels like self-defense—it's ultimately self-sabotage—but we try and prevent them climbing the wall. But then if that person can get in, they can go about writing a new set of evidence.
You know, we talked about evidence. That wall is essentially evidence. It's like it's a—it's a shield built on faulty evidence from a—from another experience. If they get over it, they can help us go on the journey of making new evidence. But it's very difficult to get over. And then eventually something they do can just get inside that—that last line of defense. And it's good when they do, right? Because you can learn how wrong you were about so many things you believed.
And then you go like, "Wow, every single thing that I've defined myself as like it can all be different." And like that's like real freedom, I think. Like yeah, just one of those little pieces where yeah, everything you thought you knew about the world just like changes. You can then be like, "What else am I wrong about? Or like what else—not like even right or wrong—it's like what other ways can I like experience this? Like what other—how else can I...?" Yeah, like what new sort of like possibilities are there for like who I am and what I'm going to do.
Who are you and what are you going to do?
I am a... I'm like a kind and sensitive person and I want—and I want to like make—I want other people to feel happy. Like I want to—I can't like bring—like make people happy, but like I want to con—I like am considerate of like people around me and like how they might be feeling or whatever.
Why is that difficult to say?
I don't know. I don't know. I guess if I had to like really think about it, maybe it's like because um if that's like really who I am at my core, which like I really feel like I'm speaking from the heart, there's pain there because why was I made to like feel like I was such a monster, you know?
Yeah. It's painful because I think like if I take away all of the things that I project and like, "Oh, like I'm someone who like speaks their mind and like I don't care what you think," if I like take all that away and I'm like, "Who am I really?" and I actually just like, you know, like someone who's quite sensitive and like wants to make—wants to be considerate of the people around them.
Like why—why do you just like keep putting things in front of you that are going to stop you from just like being there? When who you truly are isn't a bad thing. Like those aren't bad qualities to have as a person. So why like why—why am I so ashamed of that? Or like whatever, you know? Like why—why am I tripping myself up to like not be that? Maybe because like once that wasn't good enough, right? And I'm telling myself like, you know, that's not good enough. Yeah.
Seems like it makes sense as an explanation. Yeah. I was thinking as you're saying it, I was thinking well, you know, if at one point you had to be someone else or you had to be—you had to meet expectations in order to be told that you were good enough. Expectations that were unmeetable. You might spend your life dancing from one expectation to another just trying to please the world's expectations.
And I know you know now because I've heard you talk about it that expectations are really trying to meet social expectations anyway really are the... slippery slope isn't quite the word, but—but it is quite a—I think slippery slope is maybe a good—a good phrase to use because it's all down from there, isn't it, once you start playing that game. It's the self-destructive spiral down to a place that's hard to climb out of.
Like maybe I don't value just like kindness and con—like consideration in other people. I'm just spitballing on this by the way.
What makes you think you don't value it in other people?
Well, just because I I have this other sort of theory that I've been like stewing for a while where it's like you you hate the—you despise the most like what you are. Or like you're you reject the most like who you are inside.
That would make sense if who you were was rejected, right? If you were told that who you were is not a good person and that is a belief that you have, then if you see that in other people you'd think, "Well, that's not a good person" because... yeah.
Yeah. Wait, can you say that again? It sometimes takes me a moment.
No, that's fine. I'm just spitballing as well. But you said that kindness was a quality that you either didn't like in other people?
Yeah, maybe it's something I don't like value enough. I don't—I don't think it's I'm worth—like if it's unworthy.
Well, you were told not to value those reactions in a sense because you were that and it was real negatively reinforced. Yeah. I'm just guessing, but... Yeah, I guess we both are.
What—what is success to you? If you were—if, you know, if you look back in 10 years from now and say, "I was successful over those last 10 years," what would that be?
Well, there's like a lot of like tangible things that I want to do with my career... No, no, no, right, okay, so yeah, just like exactly what you mean. Yeah, but like I mean I guess success would be like understand—like knowing in my soul that like I—I deserve any of any of those things or like I—just um feeling adequate.
What is success? Well, I've—I've already said that I don't feel like it's a destination, right? It's like a happening every second. It's not like it—it can't look... I can't stand on the other side of success and look back and be like, well a look at that moment, it's like what you look back on. It's every like every time you were at a crossroads or decision and like how what did you choose to do? That's all you can control is like what's happening right now.
Like are you going to choose this path or this path? Like are you going to behave one way or another way? Are you going to do the things that you don't like about yourself and continue to do them or are you going to like do it differently and you're going to like talk about yourself in a different way? Like and that's like it's every second. And and there's no other side to it.
Um, I don't know, maybe enlightenment if you—if you believe that. Um, but it's about the—the journey.
With—you're 35 years old. You're sat here again.
Yeah.
And you go, "Those last 10 years, they were a good 10 years." Which I'm sure you will say. But if we're sat here, you're 35 years old, I'm like, psh, I'm dead by then, I'm like 75 or something. I'm not, I've just turned 30 and I'm like having a crisis. I'll be 40. So, um—I love all my 40-year-old listeners, thank you for liking and subscribing—but you're 35, I'm sat here and I'm 40. We're looking back on the last 10 years and we're going, "Yeah, that was really, really a great 10 years." What would have had to have happened in your estimation for that to be true?
I guess like um like control over—no, control. That sounds like... ugh. No. Like I'm... I guess it would be like looking back at all of the moments and, you know, seeing—seeing the the conscious decisions that were made rather than just like acting on impulse, right?
I guess success would be like, "That was a point that was really challenging and like I feel really proud that I didn't slip back into that old habit or I didn't like, you know, I didn't like just go completely selfish and think, 'Oh, my problems are the worst in the world.' I just like had a bit of perspective and I like picked myself up and I I kept going." Like I guess that's like what I would look back on those moments and feel like those decisions like would define those 10 years and I'd be like proud—like proud of of that. Yeah.
Do you have a—do you have a—do you have a sense of mission about you at all?
Mission? Definitely. I mean, the the freedom and like the joy that I feel through performing—and I'm I—I feel like it's changed my life, right? And like we're at a place where, you know, there's a lot of people who want to like make art, creative people who want to sustain a lifestyle of like making art and like having, you know, whether that be acting, singing, you know, writing.
And now I guess like the mission is like I I want to build companies or like um, you know, work with people and like kind of continue the ethos of like um, you know, pushing creative people to be able to sort of like sustain a life of like, you know, creative work.
Because I'm like in a very fortunate position where I do what I love and what I do also brings me money. And the way that the work makes me feel is like the best thing ever. And like that those like three things I think are like a foundational piece of like being a a human. And like the it's like should not be as hard as it is for like people to be in that position.
And um I when I when I whenever I'm like down about like the world and like whether it's the government, the environment or like anything, um I like kind of wonder I'm like, "What if like more people could do what they love for a living? Like would we actually be in like just in a better place?"
Like not that those things like influence any of these like poor decisions but like I see like so much—there's a lot of pain like like there's a lot of pain in in the world and like life causes people a lot of pain. And I and I um yeah, I just I feel I feel like you know art and like expression through art and like channeling like creativity, I wonder if that would contribute to making the world a better place. I want for that to contribute to making the world a better place.
You're a very different person to the person I watched in all of the previous interviews.
Yeah. Well, I don't know, I'm still the same person but I definitely have a different perspective.
When I watched um—because you did a few interviews about three, four years ago and in those interviews, um just like, I don't know what it was. You were very very high energy. Do you know what I mean? Like very very high energy, um you seemed—yeah, exactly!
Very that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You seemed to just be very um considered and um what's the right word? Very considered and a bit more calm.
Now? Oh now, yeah. Yeah. I think that that's like exactly how I feel and like it's so like it's so exhausting per—performing in that way. It's not fulfilling, it's not real. It was like I guess I was that way as like an escape from from the the qui—like the quiet. I didn't know what was going to be in there when I like stopped... like.
I think that it's like quite a scary even though like on the other side of like self-discovery or like trauma healing, like on the other side of it is like the answer to all of your problems, like it's te—it's terrifying. It's terrifying to look inside you because you've always told yourself that like you're not good enough and...
And like it's terrifying because you're worried you're going to look inside and be like, "Oh, all of those things were true." But no, it's terrifying to be like, "Wait, maybe like I am actually worth like worthy of like a good life. Like and maybe I'm like stopping myself from doing that." Like that's a crime.
That's not—and I think I mean it's like I've said this a lot, it is a journey. But I think it's—it's like a scary thing to start biting off. And then once you start biting off, then you start to realize like how selfish that you've been. And you you don't like yourself for like a number of reasons but then you start to—it's like not other reasons to dislike yourself, but it's like you just—I don't know, I feel like I like there's you have one life and like and I've been spending all of this time like stopping myself from doing it.
And like that's awful of myself to do that, but it's also to do that to yourself. It's also just like a waste of all of that and there's like that other perspective. Um, yeah. But yeah, just like stopping and having that having that sort of um conversation, I guess like with myself has like it's changed everything. It's changed like and it's been and it's so much better now. It's so much better and it's less tiring.
So many people don't don't want to go near that onion. Yeah. You know, they don't want to they don't want to go near it. And it's funny because I I you know, sometimes with my own naivety or my own um mindset privilege or because I'm someone that loves introspection, I'm like, "Go on, peel it back, go on, peel it back! Why won't you peel it back? Go on, let's go to therapy, let's fucking talk about it!"
You know, I must be a pretty difficult friend to have if you don't want to peel back layers because I only want to peel back, I don't want small talk. Yeah, yeah. But I but I sometimes encounter people that don't want to peel back the layers. And it's frustrating because you you see the consequences of unpeeled back layers everywhere in their behavior and you think, "Well, you just need to peel back the layers and you'll find the source. Once you know what the source is, then you can go about solving against it all or understanding it all."
Um, but yeah, I I don't know what to say to people when they don't they don't I guess it's none of my business and everyone in their own time. Some people maybe will never start the journey of understanding themselves and healing and peeling back layers.
Yeah, sometimes people who you love and are very, very close to and like you'll never be able to control that or or like force them to or do it for them.
Was there a catalyst or something that helped you to take that step and and start wanting to peel back layers and understand? Was there anything that or was it just the pain of staying the same was greater than the pain of making a change?
I I've definitely always been searching, I think. Like I'd always been searching but I never I never knew like how to go deeper, how to like yeah, okay. And I think um yeah, Reuben, meditation, therapy. The pandemic like what you because we were just at home every single day, like a lot of variables like stopped shifting so I could track my mood like more accurately because like there wasn't a bunch of different things happening each day but I could see... like I could see it. So I guess like the stillness, you know, um yeah.
But like you have you have you have to you have to choose like what you want. There's comfort sometimes within the pain or within like the um onion. And like you have you have to choose whether going going there it is going to be like pain like the most painful thing you ever do but like have you know every possibility on the other side or is it just like safer to like not and like get by? And like it's okay because I'm not hurting anyone and like I hurt myself a little bit but like I can deal with it.
It's like that's the thing. You and it's like a that's a hard decision to make and there's never a right time and like it never like happens as fast as you want it to happen and you just like have you just have to choose like that ultimately is a choice that only you can make and you can't make for other people and you can't like persuade them and you can't like you just have to choose.
And you have to do that multiple times. "Oh, I'm fixed now," and then you're not and so you have to choose again. "Like am I going to get back on the horse or am I going to not?" And it yeah, just...
Professionally then?
Yeah.
Oh, your face lit up again!
I'm like it's I I it's very liberating to speak this freely um in this private setting but like understanding that it's going to be public because I I've never really done that, I don't think. Um and I'm a bit scared, I have to be honest. Like I'm quite like concerned a little bit, it's like creeping in.
Yeah.
But I really hope that it like um can help the people that it's like, you know, all a—I don't know what I hope, but um yeah.
What is—what is the concern?
Um I don't know, it's just like that uh like the media training part of you that's like, "Don't say this or..." and also because like a lot of things that I've discussed like they do concern other people. And so, you know, there's that as well um because it just yeah, I don't know. But it's fine. It's fine. It's going to be okay.
Yeah.
I sound like I'm just trying to convince myself.
Were you—were you anxious about coming here today?
Um u—yes. But I had prepared. Well, no, I just had a I wanted... sometimes I'm anxious because I don't know where it's going to go. And other times I'm anxious because um I I like it's like, "Are you going to be open or not? Or are you going to be honest or not?" I guess yeah. So that was sort of the anxious thing where it was like, you know, I went to morning yoga this morning and I was doing breathing exercises in the car... because it's like it's very easy to slip back into the like, "Heh, yeah, I really like...!" Yeah. That's like still a part of me, it's still a very, very prominent part of me. So yeah.
Why did you want to do that today? Why did you why did you want to be um open today?
Like there's a piece that's like missing, and like if I try and really talk about things honestly, like I just know that there's this like massive like hole that I'm like dancing around the edge of. And I don't think that it like yeah, I don't think that that like helps anything. So yeah. Yeah. I guess like the what I what I wanted to speak about today and like we've got we have spoken about it and it's like been a lot more emotional than I you know anticipated, but it always is, right?
But I I it's like, you know, like freedom of expression and like making art really did change everything and like I want other people to to feel that. And like I couldn't talk about that in without like fully talking about what it helped me escape from, I guess. So yeah.
It's funny with being an artist that we um I used to think that art creating art was exclusive... and I said this in our show we did up and down the country, I open with this. I say, once upon a time I used to think that art was exclusively reserved for people that were like artists. If it's in your bio then you can do it. You can paint, you can create, you can make music, you can dance. But only if it's in your bio and you've gone to like school for it. Everyone else, we're all like other things. Artist over there, everyone else over here.
And um it was actually when I left my job as a CEO that I thought to myself, at a fundamental level if I remove all these labels that society's given me, what am I? And that's when I discovered the art in me that had been suppressed because society says you're an artist and I'm a CEO. But we're all artists and that realization has been so amazing for me and my mind and my mental health and all those things. Do you think we're all artists?
I do. And I think that you can—there's a lot of words you can use for that that might make, you know, people more comfortable if, you know, that as a label. But I think like fundamentally like since the beginning of time like humans have like made things and they've just got increasingly like complex and and they've maybe they've altered like the human state in like lots of ways and like, you know, the way we think and the way we behave or whatever.
But like we've always made things like at our fundamental level, like we've used tools and we we make things. And whether you like see your approach to life or like your mind as like more like analytical or or something, like it's there's still like creation, like you're still creating things. And finding like what you create like very freely and like being able to do that as much as possible is like an incredibly fulfilling thing.
And it doesn't have to be like painting or like these very sort of rudimentary like clear sort of artist industries. Like I don't know, like I listen to like some business podcasts and stuff and they talk about like sort of like running a company—you can probably have more insight on this—but like when people are doing like what they're amazing at and like other people are doing things that they're amazing at and like you don't get people to do things that like they're very slow at and like don't understand or like don't like doing or like and that's like how you can like move very quickly.
Amen.
And so it's like but what about like the whole world? Like not that the whole world is like a company or whatever but like what if we could all do what we're like that comes effortlessly to us? Like yeah. And it's not just like a but like a bunch of people sitting around painting. Like it's not that at all. If you think about artists as like that very sort of like but if people were like free to create and to like explore their mind and like, you know, express through through building, through making.
The thing that um people sometimes struggle with is they will say, "Well, I've got this job and I I can't do that. I'm a you know, I've got to go to this building site and I've got to do this thing and I've got to I'm a cleaner so I've got to do this or I work at the supermarket or I work at um I'm a driver so I I can't I can't be an artist, I can't create anything. Sorry, Maisie."
Yeah. Well, and this is what I always want to be like incredibly um I guess like from that person's perspective, yeah I don't have a clue like what I'm talking about, right? And it's like it's all like very nice like in theory but like get in the real world. And like I understand that perspective.
And that's why I think it's like a like a like a like a like a problem like that's rooted through like even the way that like children are like educated like all the way through to like the way we see like our working life lifespan.
But I believe I understand what you're saying. You're saying wouldn't it be wonderful if everybody could get to that place, if that was even if it's a you know... and I I personally think that um I really would love, you know, if I could wave a wand and everyone listening to this could maybe take one thing away from this from my from how I've received it. It's like we don't have to give up on that dream of creating just because... like I remember working in call centers, I remember doing all those things.
But I would I would also prioritize as much as I possibly could, understanding the context I'm in and everyone's in a different context, not one that I can speak to, that um the way out of that for me was like owning my my own space of creation, even if that meant home in like playing a video game where I got to like build a virtual world. Or in the case of me it was I was building this business called Wallpark.
And it's actually more so now that I'm like learning to DJ and I'm like doing these shows and I'm writing these books that I'm like um no matter how much I get caught up in my identity of like building businesses whatever, I should always reserve a split space for creating, if possible. And that is so good for the mind.
I I hope everyone has—because I know everyone listening to this, there'll be a guy, you know, driving up in a lorry listening to this right now, but he knows he loved playing the drums. And at some point he told himself that, "Oh, I can't do that, that's silly thing, that's a distraction. It's a waste of time." That's the worst one.
Yeah, and I yeah, I think like the the snowball of like opportunities that like or possibilities that it opens up when you just like yeah, you don't tell yourself, "No, I can't do that anymore because I don't have time or I don't have um you know, it's like yeah, I'm I have to do this instead or I have to do this instead." Like switching switching like a little portion of your week over to like freely creating, um I I think it can bring incredible things for people.
Wasted time is a really interesting concept that I have I think in the last two weeks of doing this podcast I've started to think a lot about. It was actually last night someone said to me, "Oh, we should watch um what did they say? Prison Break." And I remember like my brain went, "That's a waste of time," and then I corrected myself to them and I didn't say it to them, but I remember going, "Do you know what? Nothing is really a waste of time because if you think about the way creativity works and how we source inspiration from so many random things."
Nothing is and also if you just if relaxing is not a waste of time. But I think we've been quite conditioned to see if it's not productive and resulting in some kind of ar—you know quantitative ROI, it's a waste of time.
Yeah.
What's your relationship with time and empty time and space?
Well, I mean it's changed a lot but I think like currently, um I I don't like I don't try and like control like time. "This is taking too long, this isn't... you know, this needs to happen now or like oh I should be doing this but I haven't." Um I've spent like a lot of my time—I've spent a lot of my time uh like torturing myself over like whether I spent time in like the most like uh like useful way or whatever.
But now it all it I feel like Reuben said something recently because like we've been talking about time a lot and like sort of this discussion of like is it linear? Like and this is kind of like you know quite sort of hypothetical or whatever, dense things about like the history of the universe and like what we all are and what it all means.
But he said something very interesting recently where he was like, "I I feel like what time can do is like arrange itself before you." And like he sort of talks about like his schedule. Like sometimes in a week like there's a million meetings and they're all happening at the same time and it's like "Ah! Like are you going to go like, 'Uh, I need to change everything!'" He was like, "Or do you just like let it be and then it magically kind of like this person needs to do something earlier and this person needs to do something like later so like these calls all move and we need to cancel because so-and-so got COVID."
Like he was like it it like if I str—stress and try and manipulate my calendar to be like perfect, one that's really really stressful and two, I don't do that and it sometimes just it most of the time just sort of falls into into place. And so I've always thought that was really interesting. So in those times where I was like, "I I can't I need to be doing this right now but like I I can't do it, I can't focus, I can't whatever," I I'm like the space the the block of time where I'm supposed to do this is is going to find me. That sounds like I'm like avoiding all responsibilities.
No, it makes perfect sense to me because be—many ways I I many ways I received that. The first one was just like okay I can't control the future anyway so there's so much anxiety surrounding trying to.
The second thing is that like my priorities and what I care about will end up shaping this all anyway. So like if this ran over by a couple of minutes and I wanted it to run over, that's fine because I made the conscious decision that this was my priority versus I don't know walking my dog or something. And so my priorities my values will hopefully lead me and then there's loads of things out of my control which are not for me to worry about anyway so the future should be somewhat fluid and accepting that's not always easy but it's probably a better way to look at our time.
I want to enjoy the journey so...
You're enjoying the journey, right?
Yeah.
More so now than ever?
Yeah. Good. Yeah.
How about you?
Uh yeah, I'm enjoying the journey, yeah. Yeah I am. I just take every day I think I've just always just taken every day as it comes and like some days I do really shit and that's okay because I can't do anything about it now so I just try and try my best to just as I said earlier like channel that into like learnings, feedback and being better.
We have a closing tradition on this podcast, which you might be aware of.
Uh-huh.
Um it's where the last guest writes a question for the next guest.
Oh cool, no I haven't—okay I haven't seen this.
Okay, so they don't know who they're writing it for and you will never know who asked it.
Okay.
And I don't get to read it until now. Um this person has a bit of an interesting handwriting.
Okay.
My mine is worse I'll say but but um here we go. What's the last decision you made that went completely sideways, plus what did you do to correct it (brackets) if you could correct it?
Hmm. There's like a lot of different things that I'm thinking of and I don't like... okay, so I have been working in Paris recently as you know. And I uh I was diagnosed uh like a year and a half ago with ADHD and I take medication every day. And um I am like prescribed that in the UK and I'm like working in France.
So I ran out um and like did—couldn't get any more in the time to like go away. I don't know if this is going to be like insightful at all. No it doesn't need to be insightful at all. Um to correct it, I tried to get some sent over but that like wasn't working for a lot of different reasons. Um but I guess like the main thing that I did was like stop beating myself up about like not like organizing it better so as I had it, because I was already feeling like terrible um but you know torturing yourself over this and telling yourself, "Oh you could you could have your medication right now if you'd have just... or if you'd have just done this then you'd be fine right now, but instead you're going to struggle...!"
Like instead of sort of going down that path, I just was like it's done. I can't change it. Like I'm I can't do this, like I my brain is like hitting a wall with like you know to-do list or like whatever, and I just have to ride it out.
What made you want to go and get checked for ADHD? But then even that assumes you wanted to go get checked.
I've been speaking to a psychiatrist for like a long time so he's known me for for quite a while um and we've sort of like yeah between between him and like therapy that I do sort of more actively um like more regularly.
Yeah.
And he suggested it?
Yeah.
And it made sense to you?
It did. Like a lot of the things that I like had noticed about myself um like my mom being like, "Yeah but you know I struggle with this and I struggle with that too," you know? Or and like I think she raised me knowing all the things that she knew about herself like in a very particular way and I got to do a lot of things that came very naturally to me um uh and she was sort of forced to do things that like she just you know...
And so but it was like funny because he was sort of telling me all these things and I was like, "Yeah but my mom does that!" and he's going, "Yeah, it runs in the family," I'm like, "Oh, interesting!" So um yeah, it was quite a—it was quite an interesting thing just for me and my mom to go through actually. Um yeah, like I had more perspective on myself but also like more perspective on on her too which was kind of cool.
What is your relationship with her? I realize I've not mentioned her.
Yeah, we haven't. Um my relationship with my mom is in a really, really good place now. I mean she—it has been my whole life um she I mean she like kind of gave me the greatest gift of all and just like supported whatever it is that I wanted to do um and it kind of led me to like the most extraordinary places and we did a lot like together um.
And in more recent years, I think I've like I've well you know grown up but also sort of like been more independent and like that is like adjusted our relationship um as it does like you know very naturally. Um but it's just been like interesting for the two of us to navigate that from being like quite in ways codependent, you know? Like she traveled with me when I was like between the age of like like 12 to 16, 17. And like those are usually the years when everyone's like, "Mom, like you're not cool, I don't like you!" And like me and my mom were like thick as thieves and we just like traveled like traveled the world together, like me and her.
Um uh so we were like very like very, very close and like very had a you know and we still are, we still have all of those things but it's just been very interesting like you know growing up and and having like having parts of my life that that are like simply my own and like parts of my career and struggles with my career that I get through on my own because like you know I can that's okay, I can do that now and just like the way that that's been strange for us both, I think.
Was there a point with your relationship with your mother where you started having those difficult conversations about the things you were realizing about yourself and your past and is there...? Because I'm just I'm not that close to my parents so I've just never had I've never had those conversations.
Yeah, like we we've definitely had like those conversations um yeah, it's it's incredibly painful like um yeah, I think there's like so much pain you know that you have like in your own experience but like you know you're so yeah it's like very painful to think about like the people that you love like being in pain as well or like whatever. So yeah.
Well, Maisie, um thank you. Thank you for uh thank you for coming here today and thank you for having this conversation with me. Um I learn so much from you know so many everyone I speak to but um it's interesting. You're search—I feel like I feel like you're such a good human being at your core and it almost um yeah, it's difficult for me. I feel like you're such a pure good human being, you know?
And so I really like feel I feel every tear you've cried and I feel all of your all of your pain as well. Um I've never actually got up and hugged someone during a conversation! But no, you are you're such a beautiful pure human being and um I'm so deeply hoping that you um you get comfortable with that truth too however long that takes for you because it is the truth.
And um because of that is the truth it means that you're so deserving of so much more so than I am! You're definitely—no you are because you are you are literally like a within there you are a complete ray of joy and sunshine and love and and kindness and all those things that I'm striving to be even better at so um thank you. And you know, uh thank you for your honesty because it's unbelievably difficult and it's easier not to be. But you you won't even get to see all of the the people that it serves and helps in so many profound ways so that's what I want to thank you for.
And your suit and it's just tremendously inspiring! We didn't even get to talk about how hard you've worked um professionally. We did a little bit off off-air but um to achieve all the things you've achieved at such an unbelievably young age but um that inspires me, um your openness and honesty inspires me, your wisdom inspires me and you know I'm so excited in your 25, which is unfair! It's like crazy! It's crazy um crazy that you've done so much and you're such a a beautiful person at such a young age so thank you Maisie.
Thank you. Thank you for having me. Um and thank you um thank you for this incredible podcast. I think um you as you have spoken about have a real range of guests but I think that you um you approach everyone on like a very sincere and like um consistent level. And I think that like you as a person are like very real and that sort of brings out like a real openness in the people that you talk with. But you also like clarify at every sort of point any part that you don't understand which not only makes it helps you understand but it brings like the audience in in a way that like a lot of other people don't. Whether because like they don't want to ask questions because they don't want to look like they don't know or whatever. Like you you are like very authentic um and like it's incredibly calming to be around. Um so thank you.
Huge compliment. Thanks Maisie.
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