如何利用科学方案改善记忆与专注力 | Charan Ranganath 博士

Andrew Huberman：欢迎收听 Huberman Lab 播客，我们在这里讨论科学以及以科学为基础、可以用于日常生活的工具。我是 Andrew Huberman，是斯坦福医学院神经生物学和眼科学教授。今天的嘉宾是 Charan Ranganath 博士。Charan Ranganath 博士是加州大学戴维斯分校心理学和神经科学教授，也是世界领先的人类记忆研究者之一。当然，记忆是我们整个生活不可或缺的一部分。记忆的重要性不仅在于记住我们学到的东西，也在于为我们整个人生建立背景。也就是说，只有理解我们来自哪里、曾经是谁、现在是谁，我们才能确定接下来几分钟、明天、未来几年，乃至余生想做什么。因此，记忆受损的人，无论原因是脑损伤、与年龄相关的认知衰退，还是阿尔茨海默病等痴呆症，之所以会遭受巨大痛苦，不只是因为他们无法记住日常事务，还因为他们无法把自己放在更广阔的人生背景中。认出家人不只是能够在日常生活中与这些家人相处，还意味着理解自己与他们共同经历的全部记忆，以及某次互动为人生经历带来的意义。今天，你将了解记忆如何运作，也会了解似曾相识等现象，了解如何减缓与年龄相关的认知衰退、关于这一点研究究竟说明了什么，以及如何预防阿尔茨海默病等疾病。我们还会谈到 ADHD，也就是注意缺陷多动障碍。Ranganath 博士会分享他自己与 ADHD 相处的经历、ADHD 与记忆的关系，以及他用来应对自身 ADHD 的工具。Ranganath 博士非常擅长用清晰的语言描述研究，并把研究与自己的叙事和生活经历结合起来，为你梳理出可以应用于日常生活的实用工具。在开始之前，我想强调，这档播客与我在斯坦福的教学和研究工作是分开的。不过，它确实属于我的愿望和努力的一部分，即向公众免费提供有关科学和科学相关工具的信息。秉持这一主题，我要感谢今天节目的赞助商。第一家赞助商是 David。David 制作的蛋白棒与众不同：每根含有 28 克蛋白质，只有 150 卡路里，糖含量为 0 克。没错，28 克蛋白质，而且 75% 的热量来自蛋白质，比最接近的下一款蛋白棒高出 50%。David 的蛋白棒味道也非常好。我最喜欢蛋糕口味，但巧克力口味和莓果口味我也喜欢。基本上，我喜欢所有口味，每一种都非常好吃。就我个人而言，我尽量从天然食物中摄取大部分热量。不过，当我赶时间、离开家，或者只是想找一份快捷的下午点心时，我经常会想要一种高质量的蛋白质来源。David 让我能够以一份点心的热量获得 28 克高质量蛋白质，因此很容易达到我每磅体重摄入 1 克蛋白质的目标，同时不会摄入过多热量。再说一次，我平时一天的大部分食物都来自天然食物，但通常会在午餐和晚餐之间的下午晚些时候感到饥饿时吃一根 David 蛋白棒。有时上午中段饿了也会吃，有时还会把它当作代餐，不过它并不是完整的一餐，只是能让我撑到下一餐。如果我两小时后才需要吃饭，但现在非常饿，就会吃一根 David 蛋白棒。正如我之前提到的，它们真的非常好吃，甚至好吃得出乎意料。口感也很棒，更像饼干，带有有嚼劲的饼干口感，这与其他蛋白棒不同，后者我往往吃几次就腻了。在发现 David 蛋白棒之前，我从来不是蛋白棒的忠实爱好者。如果你试试看，就会明白我的意思。如果你想试试 David，可以访问 davidprotein.com/huberman。再说一次，链接是 davidprotein.com/huberman。今天的节目还由 Levels 赞助。Levels 是一个帮助你了解不同食物如何影响健康的项目，它利用连续血糖监测仪，根据你的饮食提供实时反馈。影响短期和长期健康以及每天精力水平的最重要因素之一，是身体管理血糖的能力。为了让每天的精力和专注保持稳定，你希望血糖水平平稳，不要出现大幅波动或骤降。大约三年前，我开始使用 Levels，想了解不同食物如何影响血糖。它对于确定我选择什么食物、如何安排饮食与锻炼的时间——包括有氧训练和力量训练——以及临近睡眠或不太临近睡眠时该吃什么、早上醒来时该吃什么、禁食或结束禁食时该怎么吃等，都提供了非常有用的信息。事实上，使用 Levels 帮助我安排了整个日程，让我拥有更多精力和认知专注力，训练效果更好，睡眠也更好。当我了解不同事物，尤其是食物，如何影响血糖后，一切都变好了。如果你有兴趣了解 Levels 并亲自试用连续血糖监测仪，可以访问 levels.link/huberman。目前，Levels 还额外提供两个月的免费会员期。再说一次，访问 levels.link，L-I-N-K，斜杠 huberman，就可以试用他们的新传感器并获得两个月免费会员。今天的节目还由 Waking Up 赞助。Waking Up 是一款冥想应用，提供数百种引导冥想课程、正念训练、瑜伽睡眠课程等。我大约 15 岁时开始练习冥想，它对我的生活产生了深远影响。到现在，已经有数千项高质量的同行评议研究强调，正念冥想对于提升专注力、管理压力和焦虑、改善情绪等方面可能很有帮助。近年来，我开始使用 Waking Up 应用来进行冥想，因为我发现它是帮助我真正坚持冥想练习的极佳资源。很多人开始练习冥想后获得了一些益处，但也有很多人难以坚持。Waking Up 应用受到我和许多其他人喜爱的原因，是它提供了许多不同的冥想可供选择，而且时长各不相同。因此，无论从新鲜感的角度，还是从时间安排的角度，都很容易坚持冥想练习。你不会对这些冥想感到厌倦，因为总有新内容可以探索，也总有关于自己和冥想效果的新东西可以了解；即使每天只有两三分钟，也总能把冥想安排进日程。如果你想试用 Waking Up 应用，请访问 wakingup.com/huberman，可以获得 30 天免费试用。再说一次，访问 wakingup.com/huberman，获得 30 天免费试用。现在开始我与 Charan Ranganath 博士的谈话。Charan Ranganath 博士，欢迎你。

Charan Ranganath 博士：谢谢。

Andrew Huberman：说到记忆，我们可是认识很久了。

Charan Ranganath 博士：确实。

Andrew Huberman：你刚被聘为助理教授时，我还是一名研究生。对于不熟悉学术术语和职业轨迹的人来说，助理教授指的是尚未获得终身教职的教授，而现在你当然已经是正教授，也是记忆领域的世界级专家。即使我们没有刻意去想，记忆似乎也占据着每个人的头脑。所以这正好引出我的第一个问题：当我们度过一天时，我们的认知和知觉有多少集中在正在发生的事情上，又有多少是由先前的记忆驱动的？有没有研究评估过，我们的大脑多频繁会转向关于过去的想法？当然，我们会学习当下的事物。我知道这是一个杯子，是因为我曾经在某个时候学过这一点——

Charan Ranganath 博士：嗯。

Andrew Huberman：……但我想问的是，我们每天的思考有多少实际上发生在过去？

Charan Ranganath 博士：这很有意思。首先，这是一个非常适合作为开场的问题；有意思的是，我其实不认为记忆是关于过去的。我认为记忆是关于现在和未来的。

Andrew Huberman：嗯。

Charan Ranganath 博士：记忆的作用，是有选择地从过去取出你所需要的东西，用来理解现在，并对未来作出推测。我知道你是研究视觉的，对吧？如果你只观察人的眼球运动，就会发现这一点。第一次走进这个房间时，我肯定没有意识到，但我的眼睛一定到处扫视。现在，如果我回来拜访你，比如说，‘那次采访太棒了’，之类的，对吧？希望确实如此，不过也可能不是。但假设是这样，对吧？

Andrew Huberman：可能性很大。

Charan Ranganath 博士：是的。那我走进来后，眼睛可能会直接看向 Rick Rubin 的照片，然后再看向别的东西，比如浓缩咖啡机。记忆让我能够预测物品在哪里，而且这个过程几乎发生在意识之前，所以我们并没有察觉。它也是一种确认过程：我们抓住重要的东西，并确认一切都在应该在的位置。你也可以在诸如变化盲视这样的现象中看到这一点，虽然那是稍有不同的现象。变化盲视有一个著名例子：研究者播放一段人们打篮球的视频，他们来回传球，随后一个穿着大猩猩服的人从他们身后走过。我认为观看视频的人中大约有 40% 根本没有看到大猩猩。原因是，你会对眼前有什么形成非常强的预期。因此，你并不是在字面意义上看见眼前的东西，而是在大脑中建立一个关于外部世界的内部模型，确切地说，是一种模拟。记忆无论是语义记忆——我们肯定会谈到，它指的是你对世界的知识，比如你刚才说的杯子——还是情景记忆，也就是你对发生过什么的记忆，比如仅仅一分钟前发生的事，都会参与构成你对自己身处何处的感受。假如我问你今天是星期几，你就会使用情景记忆。明天早上，我会在一间酒店房间里醒来。如果我没有情景记忆，就会惊慌失措，因为我会想：‘我在哪里？我是不是被绑架了？我为什么会在这里？’这正是记忆障碍患者的体验。他们必须待在非常熟悉的环境中，否则会感到害怕，对吧？所以，我不会说我们从来没有看见现在。当然不是，我们当然看见现在。但我们对现在的理解深受过去影响，这既让我们能够把注意力集中在重要的事情上，忽略那些与已知内容重复的部分，也让我们能够发现意外、找出未预期的事物，并抓住信息量最大的内容。

Andrew Huberman：昨天，我在下午小睡了一会儿。我有在下午进行非睡眠深度休息的习惯——

Charan Ranganath 博士：哦，是的。

Andrew Huberman：……就是在下午。

Charan Ranganath 博士：你以后得找个时间教教我。

Andrew Huberman：我觉得它对恢复精神和身体能量非常有帮助——

Charan Ranganath 博士：嗯。

Andrew Huberman：……但我在快结束时睡着了，醒来时房间很暗，大约有 10 到 15 秒，我不知道自己在哪里，至少感觉上是这样。有点吓人。

Charan Ranganath 博士：嗯。

Andrew Huberman：但我忘了自己在个人录音室里，也忘了我把房间的灯调暗了。我们从睡眠中醒来时出现这种短暂的记忆空白，究竟是怎么回事？有时，如果严重时差，也会经历这种对所在地点的迷失。我们知道这是怎么回事吗？

Charan Ranganath 博士：你对自己身处何处的感受，很大一部分来自情景记忆。有一种观点认为，情景记忆，也就是你记住过去事件的能力，源于你理解自己身处何处的能力。事实上，我们从海狮那里得到了一些有趣的数据，可以帮助我们理解这个问题。

Andrew Huberman：海狮？

Charan Ranganath 博士：海狮，是的。

Andrew Huberman：好，我们之后再回到这个话题。

Charan Ranganath 博士：我们之后会回到海狮。不过我认为，当你刚起床时，要记起自己在哪里，就必须主动进行情景记忆提取。也就是说，你得弄清楚：我为什么会来到这里？

Andrew Huberman：嗯。

Charan Ranganath 博士：你需要一点时间来定位自己，因为这有点像一次受控制的记忆搜索，对吧？最初，眼前没有任何东西能提醒你身处何处，而且你刚醒来时多少处于一片迷糊之中。我对睡眠了解得不够，无法断言，但我猜人们可能处于某种第一阶段睡眠，或者只是处于高 alpha 波状态——

Andrew Huberman：嗯。

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： …… these 大脑 waves that are 非常 much associated with grogginess as you're getting up. Neuromodulators are probably super low, so you're--

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Not much epinephrine, not much adrenaline.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 是的。

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的，正是如此。 而且 so that's going to lead you to 确实 be slow in doing that 记忆 retrieval that you need to orient yourself. 所以, in the clinic, if you want to 理解 whether someone has a 记忆 disorder, one of the simplest things is to ask them what day of the week is it, what month is it?

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯. Who's the president?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Who's the president, yeah.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Right now that's a com-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： That's a loaded 问题, but

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 那么, it depends on what time of year relative to the election you ask, 对吧？

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Exactly, yeah.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Very 有意思. I'm 好奇 also why it is that most all of us have a stable re现在ation of who we are.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 所以 my 理解ing is that even 人们 with 非常 severe 记忆 deficits don't wake up in the morning and wonder, who am I, or who is this 人 in this body? That somehow we 记住 that we have a self, that we are separate from other selves, that that kind of 知识 might be innate, we might be-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… born with it, and that the re现在ation of self in 记忆 is 非常 stable. Is that true?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 那么, here's what I'll say. It's a 确实 有意思 and complex 问题. You al方式s talk to a scientist, you get the, "It's complicated." 但是 I'll give you as simple of a thing as I can, which is, so if you look at 患者 with amnesia, so they have a 记忆 disorder where they can't form new memories. They have a sense of who they are, as you mentioned. It's not like they don't know who they are. 而且 I mean, they know their names, they know their biographies, and so forth. 但是 what 发生s is, at the time, let's say if you had gone swimming and you nearly drown, you had a hypoxia incident, or a cardiac arrest, or you had a traumatic 大脑 injury, severe 记忆 deficit, 对吧？ Your sense of self doesn't update. It gets kind of stuck.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 so there is kind of a sense of looking and not expecting yourself to be as old as you used to be.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： As you are. Because you're stuck in your sense of who you were. 而且 I do think, I talked, my good friend Rick Robbins at Davis is a 人ality psychologist, and he 研究 the development of 人ality. 而且 it does develop. It kind of stabilizes in these adolescent years, and that's actually also 有意思ly related to 记忆.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 但是 it does change. People do change in 确实 有意思 方式s. 所以 one thing is that 人们 grow 更多 optimistic on average as they get older.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Is that 对吧？

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 That's true. 所以 Laura Carstensen, your colleague at Stanford, actually, has done some 确实 cool work on that topic.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： They become 更多 optimistic, and yet I would argue that we become 更多, quote-unquote, set in our 方式s 因为 神经可塑性, the ability to reshape our neural circuits, diminishes with age.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 那么, so 我认为 that's overdone a little bit. 我认为 you're right. You definitely see 更少 多巴胺 activity, for instance, as 人们 get older. 但是 what I'll say is that if you have a 健康y aging 人, they have gobs of neural plasticity. 但是 often what 发生s is, yeah, you get stuck in your 方式s, and that could be related to a few things. One is that you get changes in the prefrontal cortex, and that leads you to be 更少 认知ly flexible. It can be also 因为 人们 just build up so much prior 知识 about the 世界 that it just becomes kind of ingrained that this is the 方式 it is, and it's harder to be surprised. I mean, you kind of see this with old scientists, 对吧？ They go like, "Nothing's new. E非常thing's been discovered in 1960 and nothing new has 发生ed since then." 而且-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 而且 by the 方式, for folks listening who are considering a career in science, nothing could be further-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： From the truth

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… from the truth. In fact, prior to recording, you told me a saying that I've never heard before. I don't know if it's cynical or optimistic, but if I recall the quote that Dr. Ranganath passed along, which does not come from him, it descends from somebody else, not to be named- …… is that, quote, "Science progresses one funeral at a time." Actually, a 非常 有意思 statement. It could be examined from a number of directions.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： It's dark.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 但是 I agree. I mean, there's some wonderful, let's call them aged scientists-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… with tremendous 知识 and excitement. One only has to listen to the Nobel Prize winner, Richard Axel, talk about his love of olfaction and perception, and 你可以 sense his delight.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 而且 he's getting up there. 所以rry, Richard, but it's true. He's in his 70s, 对吧？

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Hopefully, he'll live a 非常 long time. 而且 certainly, science progressed as a consequence of him being alive and-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yeah

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… working on the olfactory system. 但是 我认为 what you're referring to is 确实 重要. Neuroplasticity doesn't necessarily shut down as we age. It might even stay open to 相同 degree as early adulthood. 但是 if I 理解 what you're saying correctly, you believe that it's 因为 People tend to seek out 更少 new 知识 as opposed to lacking the ability to create new 知识.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 我相信 that's true, but that's an opinion. I don't have data on that per se, but someone's probably looked at this. 但是 that would be my sense is that a lot of what 发生s with the 方式 人们's lives play out as they get older have to do with their environment and their 经历. 而且 that's not to say that, yes, 神经可塑性 does change as you get older, but it doesn't account for the degree to which 有时 人们 can get stuck and set in their 方式s. 而且 your example of the scientist is such a beautiful example 因为 I look at the scientists who don't get stuck in their 方式s, 对吧？ 而且 they constantly challenge their beliefs. They surround themselves with a diverse group of 人们 who stimulate them, and they're also open to prediction error. 那是, they're open to saying something could be violating my 知识 of the 世界 or my 理解ing of the 方式 世界 works. 所以 here's just an example, and I know I'm going to be free associating all over the place.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Please.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： We can get into that. 但是 it's like one of the coolest 研究 that we ever did, and I totally credit my postdoc, Matthias Gruber, for this. He came into my lab, he's originally German, came in from University College London, and he told me he wanted to 研究 好奇心 and its effect on 记忆. I'm like, "这是 just……" I am being totally closed-minded, and I said, "这是 just a dumb topic." E非常body knows if you're 好奇 about something, you'll 记住 it better just 因为 you're interested, 对吧？ 所以 he said, "No, this is 确实 有意思." 而且 so we did this 实验, and I got on board with it. We 确实 kind of collectively, it was just this beautiful thing where I was exposed to something new, and I got excited about it. 而且 so the idea was we would give 人们 these trivia 问题s, and so it's kind of like a pub quiz. You sit in a pub quiz. 所以metimes you get a 问题, and it's like, "I don't know the 答案." 所以metimes you get it, and you go, "I know it." 所以metimes you go, "I don't know, but God, I 确实 need to know the 答案 to this," and you get this itch, 对吧？ Or 有时 your listeners, they're probably 非常 好奇 人们, and that's why they listen to this. 而且 maybe some of them go to your show notes afterwards 因为 they want to 学习 更多, 对吧？ 所以 we actually scan 人们's 大脑s using functional MRI. 而且 so we scan them when they get 问题s, and 有时 they had said, "I'm 确实 好奇 to find out the 答案 to these 问题s." 所以metimes they weren't 好奇. 而且 then we 使 them wait about eight 其次s and then, or 10 其次s, 我认为 it was, something like that, and then we show them the 答案. 所以 they're kind of in suspense. It's kind of like you're watching Breaking Bad or something back in the day. People had commercials, and so you're like, "Oh, no, I got to find out what's going to 发生 to Walt," 对吧？ 所以 you're in suspense. You need to know the 答案 to this, or you don't care. 所以metimes you just don't care. You're just sitting around. 所以 we show a little face, and we say, "Hey, how likely is it you think this 人 knows the 答案 to the 问题?" Now, this is a totally dumb thing to do 因为 they don't know this 人. They're just looking at a face. They're just making some arbitrary decision. 但是 I'll get to why we did that 因为 that was, 我认为, the coolest 部分 of the 实验. 但是 let's 首先 get back to the trivia 问题. 所以 we found that when we looked at 大脑 activity, when we give 人们 the 问题, right afterwards, there is a burst of activity throughout the so-called reward circuit of the 大脑. It's not 确实 a reward circuit, as we've discussed offline. It's 确实 these areas of the 大脑 that process the neurotransmitter 多巴胺. 而且 unlike many other neuromodulators that go all over the place, 多巴胺 is much 更多 restricted in its effect. 而且 so in the mid大脑, near the ventral tegmental area, sorry, I'm geeking out on this.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： No, we've talked about that on this 播客. 我认为 the key statement that you made that 人们 should hold onto as we progress through this is that 多巴胺 is not dumped e非常where. It's not sprinklered all over the 大脑. It's released in fairly restricted sites 为了 drive 部分icular processes.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： That's right. 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 我认为 that's sufficient for now.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 而且 so when we look at functional MRI, 我们可以't measure 多巴胺, but what we see is activity in the 多巴胺rgic mid大脑 area, meaning the area of the 大脑 around the mid大脑, and you see it in the nucleus accumbens or what's called the ventral striatum, which is another area that's super high 多巴胺 reward processing area. The 更多 好奇 人们 are, like on a one to six scale, the 更多 activity you see. It's just like this beautiful relationship, 对吧？ 而且 it's not driven by the 答案. Now, there's a reason we probably didn't get it for the 答案, but it's driven by the 问题. 所以 it's not like they're like, "Oh, I 学习ed something new." It's like, "I want to get this 知识." 而且 so that's 部分 one of the story. Part two of the story is we show that face right after the 问题, and if 人们 are 好奇 to find the 答案 to the 问题, they get a bump in 记忆 for the faces relative to if they're not 好奇. Now, the faces have nothing to do with the trivia 问题, but it's being in that 好奇 state that drives this 多巴胺rgic activity in the mid大脑. 所以 there's a whole lot of other 研究, findings from that 研究. 但是 basically, 我认为 if, God, you know how 有时 you do a lot of 研究. I mean, I've published, like, 180 研究, so it's like I'm trying to 记住 the exact one. 我认为 it was functional connectivity between the hippocampus and the red 大脑 during the face was predicting better 记忆 for these faces in general, something like that.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： We can put a link to the paper, of course, in the show note captions. 所以 let me 使 sure I 理解 that when 人们 are prompted with a 问题-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yeah

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… that drives the release of 多巴胺.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： The amount of 多巴胺 is proportional to how 好奇 they are to get the 答案 to that 部分icular 问题. 而且 then the 多巴胺 itself, if elevated 因为 they are 非常 好奇, can increase the probability that they will 记住 the 答案. It creates a milieu, an environment for better 记忆. 但是 that can confuse us and 使 us think that 多巴胺 improves our 记忆, but it's that 好奇心 increases 多巴胺, which increases the capacity to store 信息 that comes subsequent to 好奇心.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Beautiful synopsis, but I'll do two cheerful amendments. 所以 one is, technically, we're not measuring 多巴胺, so I have to be 非常 clear about that. 这是 BOLD signal, meaning it's metabolic activity. 但是 it's following all the usual suspects of where you'd expect it to be. The 其次 thing is, I do think that 多巴胺 is playing a 部分 in, it definitely facilitates plasticity. 所以 I do think it helps in 学习ing the 答案, for sure. 而且 there's a whole theory called synaptic tagging, which basically says that if you just release a bunch of 多巴胺 and then you have these potentiated synapses, that 你可以 drive plasticity in those synapses, even if it's not 发生ing at 相同 time.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 但是 what's 确实 cool is the face has nothing to do with the trivia 问题. The theory that we have is when you get that bump in 多巴胺 activity, you're motivated, you're energized to get the 答案, and you're driven towards a state of plasticity. 而且 now we're giving you something that has nothing to do with this 问题, and boom, you got it.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 所以 when 人们 ask me, and they ask me a lot-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yes

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… how best to elevate their 大脑 多巴胺, one reasonable 答案, based on this 研究, is 好奇心, to engage 好奇心. Do you know the quote by Dorothy Parker? "The cure for boredom is 好奇心." "There is no cure for 好奇心." 我相信 it was Dorothy Parker.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： I love that.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： If it wasn't, I'm sure we'll find out quickly in the comments on YouTube.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Older 人们 show the effect just as much as younger 人们 do.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Kids show it just as much as older 人们 do. It's just something that sticks around. 所以 speaking to your point, if you are surrounding yourself with things that will stimulate your 好奇心, and if you're open to that 好奇心, and we could talk about 知识 gaps and all these things that stimulate 好奇心. Novelty is another one. Richard Morris has some beautiful data on this with rats, but Emir Dudul and I too have some data with humans. Surprise, all of these things, I have a whole chapter in my book on this, drive that system. 所以-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： The 多巴胺 system

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： …… the 多巴胺 system. 所以 basically, if you expose yourself to opportunities to be proven wrong, you expose yourself to new 人们, places, situations, and you allow yourself to be energized by these things and not be scared and anxious, not be like, "Oh, this 人's saying something that I disagree with. I can't deal with this," or, "Oh, we figured this out 30 years ago. Nothing's new here." If 你可以 be open to that, I would argue that you're going to be engaging lots of plasticity, and that's something that's preserved in old age.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Recently, we had one of the 世界's experts on romantic relationships on this 播客, Esther Perel, to be specific, and we talked about a lot of things related to romantic relationships, but she said that one of the most sustaining factors for romantic relationships over long periods of time is a sense of 好奇心, both about the other 人-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Mm

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… but also about oneself and how one changes in the context of the relationship, and also 好奇心 about where the relationship could eventually go-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yeah

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… were one to continue to invest in it.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 所以 this word of 好奇心 seems to be a resounding theme. I'm struck by, 尽管 it 使s total sense, that 好奇心 would drive 多巴胺 release in these path方式s, that novelty would drive 多巴胺 release in these path方式s, and that also in the physical realm, 多巴胺 is so 重要 for physical movement.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yes.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： I don't think this is a coincidence, 对吧？

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： No.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 所以mehow, evolution organized this neuromodulator, 多巴胺, to be involved, the 方式 我认为 about it, is in both a physical movement-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… it's required for it, in fact, as well as 认知 movement. What we're 确实 talking about is 认知 forward movement, if there is such a thing. We're both neuroscientists-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yeah

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… but you're the 记忆 研究er.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Is there sort of a word or a framework for thinking about 认知 movement forward, meaning, as opposed to just recycling 过去 ideas-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… and memories, the notion of taking memories and actually putting them, as you said earlier, into the 现在 to anticipate the 未来, actually forward mental movement?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Huh, that's a 确实 有意思 问题. 那么, 首先 of all, I want to be careful and not to say 多巴胺 does this 因为 it's a trap, 对吧？ It's like-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 那么, to be clear-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 但是 again, yeah

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… you observed heightened activity in a-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yeah

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… 多巴胺rgic circuit.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 所以 the idea that it would not involve 多巴胺 is a bit of a stretch, but you didn't directly show that it was 多巴胺.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 所以 you're being 非常 exact.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： No, but I want to be exact and just say that-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Yeah, appreciate that

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： …… assigning a single function to a chemical is risky. 但是 that said, I do believe there's a link. One of the things that you see is in Parkinson's 疾病, 多巴胺rgic neurotransmitter mission is shot. 而且 depression is also a symptom of Parkinson's 疾病. It's quite a severe one, in fact. 而且, so what 我认为, one theory goes is that 多巴胺 energizes us to seek rewards or to seek 信息, 对吧？ 所以 a big 部分 of movement is you move to get something. It's approach, 对吧？ They talk about approach and avoidance as basic kind of things that you want to program. 而且 so a 人 with Parkinson's 疾病 has a problem with willful movement, tremors and stuff too. 但是 我认为 that 多巴胺 is involved in this kind of Energizing you to move.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 我认为 it's involved in energizing you to seek 信息. 我认为 it's involved in energizing you to seek rewards. 而且 so I do think there's some kind of a common path方式 there, and it speaks to this issue of the difference, which you've talked about and I talk about a lot, is wanting versus liking. 而且 so Kent Berridge at Michigan has great work on this recently. Gobs and gobs of manipulations of 多巴胺 activity, and what he finds is an animal, let's say, that is deprived of 多巴胺, it will go for rewards just fine. It just won't work for them. It won't do the work that you need to get a reward. 但是 if you just put it in front of them, they'll take it. 所以 what 多巴胺, it is heavily involved with these opioid systems that does drive reward responses, and it's heavily involved in 学习ing about rewards, and that's why you get a big 多巴胺rgic bump when an animal gets a reward. Because you're 学习ing about the reward and what predicted the reward. There's a little bit of a credit assignment process that takes place. What's 有意思 is you get this too with, actually my colleague at Davis, Brian Wiltshin, some beautiful work where he's looked at trace conditioning, which is when you have a, let's say, if you play a tone and you wait a long time, and then the animal gets a shock, 对吧？ 而且 so what you find is that the animal 学习s to be afraid of the tone, but it's such a long time in his thing, 我认为 it's on the order of 10 其次s or above. The animal has to be somehow doing something to be able to blame that tone for getting shocked, 对吧？ 而且 so what he found was that there's this burst of 多巴胺 activity in the locus coeruleus, which is actually known for norepinephrine, but there's 确实 cool work on 多巴胺 in the LC now, modulating hippocampus. 所以rry to get all nerdy here, but-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： No, no. Trust me, this audience likes nerdy.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 好.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 我认为 that's 部分 of why they're listening.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 所以, yeah.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Locus coeruleus is just an area of the 大脑 that tends to sprinkler large 大脑 areas with epinephrine, which is, or norepinephrine, noradrenaline for alertness, so somewhat distinct from the 多巴胺 system, but you're telling us it can also release 多巴胺?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yes. That's right. 而且 有时 they co-release from 相同 neurons, from what I 理解.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 so what seems to be 发生ing is, and he's 研究ing this now, but what seems to be 发生ing is it's not that the animal's going, "Oh, I just heard a tone, I heard a tone," and then they get shocked. It may be 更多 like they get a shock, and then they get an immediate, 'What just 发生ed?" 而且 then they get a 记忆 retrieval of the tone, and that allows them to put the two together to 学习 that this tone caused the shock, 对吧？ 而且 多巴胺 seems to be playing a 部分 in that 学习ing process, too. 所以 it's not just about reward, it's 确实 kind of the next time you hear that tone, if it were a real threat, you could actually escape from it, 对吧？ 而且 there's this whole active avoidance literature that 你可以 look at with these approach circuits that are actually quite useful for avoiding threats and avoiding punishment. 所以 it's 确实, to me, I see this role for energizing.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 that's often rewards. I like rewards as much as the next guy. Look at how much coffee I drank when I got here. 所以 it's not that, but it's just that it's mobilizing you, 我认为.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： I'd like to take a quick break and ac知识 our sponsor, AG1. By now, many of you have heard me say that if I could take just one supplement, that supplement would be AG1. The reason for that is AG1 is the highest quality and most complete of the foundational nutritional supplements available. What that means is that it contains not just vitamins and minerals, but also probiotics, prebiotics, and adaptogens to cover any gaps you may have in your diet and provide support for a demanding life. For me, even if I eat mostly whole foods and minimally processed foods, which I do for most of my food intake, it's 非常 difficult for me to get enough fruits and vegetables, vitamins and minerals, micronutrients, and adaptogens from food alone. For that reason, I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012, and often twice a day, once in the morning or mid-morning, and again in the afternoon or evening. When I do that, it clearly bolsters my energy, my immune system, and my gut microbiome. These are all critical to 大脑 function, mood, physical performance, and much 更多. If you'd like to try AG1, 你可以 go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim their special offer. Right now, they're giving a方式 five free travel packs plus a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2. Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to claim that special offer. One thing that we talked about just briefly earlier was this non-睡眠 deep rest protocol-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Mm

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… that in yoga tradition is called yoga nidra, or yoga 睡眠, 因为 you lie down, it's self-directed relaxation, long exhale breathing to slow your heart rate, et cetera. I called it NSDR, not to appropriate it, but 因为 the language of yoga nidra is a little bit of a separator for 人们.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： It sounds a little bit esoteric, 对吧？ 而且 non-睡眠 deep rest tells you what it is, 对吧？

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： There's a 研究 out of the University of Copenhagen, I can provide a link to it in the show note captions, and I'd love your thoughts on it. They show that 人们 who do this practice, this is a PET imaging 研究.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 所以 positron emission tomography, for those that don't know. 而且 they see significant increases in striatal 多巴胺 in the condition of 人们 that do this self-directed relaxation, as opposed to a 更多 traditional meditation.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Hmm.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 而且 this is why I say that NSDR is useful for restoring mental and physical vigor, which translates to this idea that 多巴胺 prepares us for, or is a reservoir for potential movement-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… typically toward rewards. 而且 I love that we're talking about some of the other facets of 多巴胺, 因为 all too often 人们 think about it as pleasure or motivation, and certainly it's involved in motivation. 而且 I'm 非常 happy to 学习 that it's also involved in 学习ing.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Oh, seriously.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 我认为 that's a novel perspective on 多巴胺, and we hear so much about 多巴胺. Do you think that when 多巴胺 is released as a consequence of 好奇心 in a 方式 that primes the 记忆 system That we become entrenched in 部分icular behaviors or routes of pursuing 好奇心 to the exclusion of others. What I'm thinking about here is a kid. We've seen these data. Kids with ADHD actually have terrific ability to 专注 if it's something that they're 确实 excited about, 确实 好奇 about.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 所以 you give a kid with ADHD who loves video games, a video game, and they're like a laser.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 所以 it's not that they lack the capacity-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yep

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… to 专注, it's that they have a harder time dropping into 专注.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yep.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 但是 it seems that 因为 of the 学习ing dimension to 多巴胺, that these circuits could potentially, quote unquote, "学习" that it's video games that provides that feeling of 专注 to the exclusion of other things. Meaning, how does one keep a diversification of inputs to the 多巴胺 system so that we're continually driving 多巴胺 through lots of 不同 things as opposed to just social media or just video games or just pick your favorite-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yeah

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… thing. Because becoming a functional human being involves the requirement to 专注 on many things, not just the things we're 好奇 about.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 To me, I talk about this a little bit in the book, but to me, and if you look at the literature, too, 你可以 see this, a big 部分 of being 好奇 is the appraisal process, so to speak. 而且 what I mean by that is saying something 发生s, 对吧？ Let's say something in your environment 发生s. If you have a decision to 使, is this 有意思? Is this 重要? Is this scary? 而且 我认为 the thing is that you need to be open to that possibility that it's 有意思. 所以 let me just give you an example that I often give. Let's say you're walking in a neighborhood, you're traveling like you do for many of your events, and you walk into a new neighborhood you haven't been to. It's nighttime, kind of poorly lit, and you hear a loud noise, 对吧？ You could be like, "那么, that's a gunshot. I better hide, or I better run." Or you could be like, "Oh, maybe there's a club nearby and there's a cool band playing. I should go check this out." That appraisal is 确实 critical for how you respond. 而且 so it's not just a matter of 好奇心 发生s. It's a process of cultivation, and it's a process of appraisal. 而且 so, I'm not a wellness guru or anything, but 我认为 this is one of the cool things about mindfulness training, is it forces you to take the mundane and be 好奇 about it.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Mm.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 when you start paying 注意力 to your breathing, my friend, Michi Jhas, 确实 turned me onto this. She wrote a book on mindfulness and meditation, and one of the things that 发生s is you're breathing, and you realize, "Wait a minute, this one isn't 相同 as the last one," 对吧？ Or 你可以 do these meditation-- I'm sure you've done this. This sound is 不同. I'll sit in the backyard doing, thanks to you, I do this morning 10-minute thing. 而且 so I'll be out in the backyard, and I'll be hearing some sound, and I'll be like, "Oh, that sound. There's a bird there. I didn't even notice that." 而且 then there's some other sound. I'm hearing the free方式. That's annoying, but I heard it. 而且 so it's 确实 a matter of paying 注意力 in some 方式s and being open to it. 而且 我认为 this speaks back to this thing about, as you get older, 有时 人们 find it scary to be in a new place. People find it scary to meet a 人 who's 不同 from them or so forth. I love listening to music that's a little bit out of my comfort zone. 所以me 人们 hate it.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 所以 我认为 some of it is sort of cultivating being comfortable with discomfort.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 我认为 it's such an 重要 theme. I feel like nowadays, in 部分 因为 of the algorithms on social media, we are fed things that feed our progressively greater and greater scrolling and dwell time, as it's called.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： The algorithms are measuring clearly how long we dwell on a given image and what's in that image and et cetera. 但是 it would be nice to cultivate an algorithm for 好奇心. Surely it can be done. You got all these smart computer scientists and AI folks. 而且 we come into this 世界 naturally 好奇.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： All primates, including humans, will visually fixate on anything that's novel, 对吧？

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yep.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 而且 研究 it.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Try and 使 predictions and gain 理解ing. Maybe now would be a good time for us to discuss a little bit about the circuitry involved in 记忆 so that we have that as a template to digest some other themes in 记忆. Most 人们 are probably familiar with the so-called hippocampus.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Which means seahorse.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： It looks a little bit like a seahorse, 尽管 the anatomist had a little bit of an imagination there, in my opinion. 但是 hippocampus, let's add to it prefrontal cortex, which you've already mentioned, and then these neuromodulatory systems. 所以 if we were going to assign a one-sentence functional definition to each of those areas, what would you say the hippocampus does?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯. 那么, 首先 of all-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： If you need 更多 than one sentence-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： …… I had a whole lot of other neocortical areas 我们可以 talk about.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Please, and let's add those in. 但是 我认为-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yeah

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… if 我们可以 start with three, 我认为 then folks-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yeah

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… can digest it.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 所以 the hippocampus is controversial. It's the most studied area of the 大脑, arguably, except for maybe V1.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Visual cortex, V1.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 是的。

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 但是 我相信, and my colleagues do, I wrote a big paper with the late Howard Eichenbaum and 而且y Unalenes on this, who you know from Davis, and we believe that it's about linking various 经历s to a context. 而且 what I mean by that is you've got 信息 about smell, high-level vision, high-level semantic 知识 信息, 对吧？ 而且 The hippocampus's wiring is 确实 set up to not 理解 what's going on. 所以 the late David Marr, who's a pioneer in computational 神经科学, proposed that what the hippocampus is about is what he called simple 记忆. It's basically saying, I know 而且y Huberman. 所以rry. Is that okay if I call you 而且y?

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Please to call me 而且y, that's fine.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 是的。 Long story.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： It's a Davis thing. You would 理解. 所以, I know 而且y Huberman, 对吧？ 但是 to have a 记忆 of this moment that's separate from, let's say, I saw you at some 神经科学 retreat when you were in grad school, I have to have some 部分 of the 大脑 that doesn't know who you are to some extent, 对吧？ Because I got to keep them separate. 而且 so, the hippocampus, what it'll do is it'll form a 记忆 that's not an 而且y Huberman 记忆. It's an 而且y in this place at this time, in this context. 而且 that's what allows it to support what's called episodic 记忆, which is your ability to say, "I went to Washington, DC once, and I 记住 going to the Smithsonian."

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： As opposed to your 知识 about what generally 发生s in Washington, DC. Oh, the president's there. Oh, that's where a lot of politics 发生. Oh, the Smithsonian is a place in DC. It's a 记忆 of your being there at a 部分icular place and time. Now, there's other 部分s of the 大脑 that allow you to associate that 信息 in a meaningful 方式 and to be able to actually expand on that context and create these narratives and these stories about them. 而且 where the prefrontal cortex comes in, and it's a huge area, it's about one-third of the primate 大脑, so it's just massive. There are a lot of 人们 who go, "那么, there's a bunch of 不同 areas, and they all do 不同 things." 而且 I subscribe to the view that that is 非常 true, and at 相同 time, there's a global function of the prefrontal cortex, which is what's called 认知 control. It's this ability to say, I'm going to regulate my movements, and I'm going to regulate my perceptions and my thoughts based on what's 重要 to me in terms of this higher order goal, 对吧？ 所以 when I've tested, for instance, 患者 with prefrontal lesions, I'm sure Mark D'Esposito talked to you about this, it's like the hallmark of them, they used to say, well, the prefrontal cortex, it's 重要 for working 记忆, and you could record from neurons in the prefrontal cortex or look at fMRI signal. 而且 if a 人 or an animal is holding something in their mind, like a phone number, neurons or bold signal in MRI will be highly elevated. Their activity will be elevated throughout this period of time where they're holding in mind. 但是 it turns out, if you just ask somebody with a major prefrontal lesion, "Here's a bunch of numbers, five, two, seven, eight," I ask you to tell them back to me in the right order. They can do it just fine. 但是 now I start to distract them. I move my hands around. There's a plane going on, flying outside the window. I had that literally 发生 once. Now they start to bomb it 因为 their 注意力 is not controlled by their goal. It's controlled by the environment around them.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 so this is where things get 确实 有意思. 所以 I once tested a patient, and I'd heard about this, but until you see it, it doesn't register. It 确实 blew my mind. 所以 there's a test called the Wisconsin Card 所以rting Test, and we don't have to get into all the details of it. 但是 basically, it's this test where 人们 学习 some rule about where to put a card on a table, 对吧？ 而且 they don't get told the rule. They just 学习 it. 而且 患者 with prefrontal damage 学习 it just fine, 对吧？

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Is it that they get an error signal or a correct signal if they're doing it in the right direction, over time, the 大脑 figures it out.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 是的。

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 所以 maybe I'll give a little bit 更多 background, but I don't want to go in the weeds.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： No, that's okay. If I'm correct. If I'm wrong, I 忘记 the Wisconsin Card 所以rting Test details. 但是 they're told to just start sorting the cards and that the correct algorithm will reveal itself-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… by a series of error and correct signals. 而且 so maybe I'm taking all the red cards and putting them in one pile, black cards, and putting them another.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： I'm getting error signals, so then maybe I go odds, evens.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Maybe I divide by suit, depending on what kind of cards they are.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯. 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Maybe I organize by even, odd alteration, and sooner or later, the 大脑 figures it out.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的，正是如此。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 是的。

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 you don't need a prefrontal cortex to do that.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Really?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Which is surprising, but you don't. You can do it. 而且-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 所以 there's context-dependent action and 学习ing without the prefrontal cortex.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yes, but let's unpack this context thing, 对吧？

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 所以 now you've been, let's say, putting all the diamonds in one pile. You've been putting all the spades in another pile, 对吧？ 所以 now I change the rule, but I don't tell you, and you put the queen of diamonds in the diamond pile, let's say. 而且 now I say, "Nope, that's wrong." 所以 now you have to say, "Wait a minute. That was right all this time. What's going on?"

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 这是 like life.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 这是 like life, 对吧？ The thing that used to work for you no longer works.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： That's right. 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 所以 you keep doing this, and a 人 with an intact 大脑 will eventually figure out, okay, that's not working. I'll try another strategy. 而且 then they'll 学习 the new rule, 对吧？ It's not easy. It's a pain, but 人们 will do it. This patient, in 部分icular, kept on using the old rule. 而且 so you have to give a series of hints going like, "Hmm, what's your strategy here?" 而且 they'll tell you, "I'm putting it according to the color." 而且 then you, "好, well, does that appear to be working for you?" 而且 they'll go, "No." 而且 they'll just keep doing it.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： They perseverate.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： They perseverate. 但是 the 有意思 thing is he knows it's not working, but he can't help himself from doing it. 而且 so what the prefrontal cortex is, it's not about this declarative 知识 about what you should do. 而且 我认为 this is 非常 deep 因为 我认为 often we get moralistic about 人们's actions, especially for 人们 who have head injuries or something like that. 而且 it's like, 你可以 have all of these beliefs that you want to have, but you need the prefrontal cortex to translate these high order beliefs, things that are 非常 abstract, into actual concrete action. Otherwise, what you do is not going to be dictated by that 知识. 所以 how this relates to 记忆 is we're constantly barraged by 信息. 我认为 it might've sit somewhere like 35 terabytes. I don't know. 但是 it's a big number, and the estimates get bigger and bigger e非常 year. 所以 we're barraged by 信息. There's no 方式 你可以 even pay 注意力 to it all, 对吧？ 所以 you 确实 rely on the prefrontal cortex to be able to say, "这是 what I'm doing right now, and e非常thing else, it's noise. Here's the signal that I need to 专注 on." 而且 that's super 重要 for 记忆, 因为 one of the things you see in old age is older 人们 are bad at most 记忆 tasks. 但是 it turns out in labs, we kind of overestimate that, and the reason we overestimate it is we're giving them a test, which is something hard, it requires a lot of 专注, and it's not something they do e非常 day. 但是 Karen Campbell and Lynn Hasher, these great 认知 psychologists, did this cool 实验 where they had a bunch of other stuff that 人们 were supposed to ignore in this 记忆 task, where they're 研究ing a bunch of things, they're trying to memorize a bunch of stuff, but there's stuff going on they're supposed to ignore. The older 人们 were just as good as the younger 人们 at 记住ing the stuff they were supposed to ignore. They were just bad at the stuff that they were supposed to pay 注意力 to.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： That's so 有意思. Maybe you could say that another time. You said it 非常 clearly. I got it. 但是 say it one 更多 time, 因为 if anyone missed it, this is super 重要. Older 人们 can-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： They were bad at 记住ing the stuff that they were supposed to 记住, but they were just as good as the younger 人们, maybe even better, but definitely as good as the younger 人们 at 记住ing the things that they weren't supposed to pay 注意力 to.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Gosh, it speaks to almost two parallel processing streams for 记忆, if I'm not mistaken. 所以 what's going on there? Is it that one form of 记忆 involves the suppression of 信息, and that circuit is actually quite active in these older 人们 and young 人们?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Whereas 好奇心 for-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Oh, that's 有意思

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… and the ability to 记住 and integrate new 信息 is somehow diminished in older 人们. Earlier, we were talking about how that's not the case, if 好奇心 is intact-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… 记忆 is intact and growing.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 那么, okay, I should say the benefit of 好奇心 on 记忆 is intact in older 人们. I got that wrong.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： I don't know, Matthias could tell me if I just email him at a break or something. 但是, I don't know if 好奇心 itself is as high in older adults.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： I would guess-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： It's just self-reported or……

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： I would guess no, but this is why I asked about movement earlier.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯. 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Curiosity is also linked to your ability to access novel scenarios.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Of course, online, 你可以 just thumb scroll or click-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yeah

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… and access all sorts of novelty. There must be data as to whether or not 人们 in their 70s, 80s, and 90s are scrolling social media to 相同 extent that younger 人们 are.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： I don't know, but I can say two things to this. One is that definitely there's a lot of work on media multitasking, and-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： …… the short 答案 is bad for 记忆, period.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 好. 所以 scrolling is bad for 记忆.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 那么, media multitasking is bad for 记忆.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Mm.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： The tech thing is a super fascinating area in general. It's 确实 how we interact with the tech that's bad.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 但是 if you're an older adult, your frontal function is not going to be as good. You will be 更多 distractible. You'll be 更多 likely to go off course. 而且 so that scrolling is going to be 更多 potent 因为, as you pointed out, the algorithms are all designed to suck up our 注意力. 所以 psychologist Herb Simon came up with this beautiful term called the 注意力 economy, 对吧？

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 so the idea is that the 更多 信息 that you have in front of you, the 更多 impoverished you are in terms of your 注意力. 所以 there's no such thing as free speech 因为 it's like you have a limited supply of 注意力, so e非常thing has a cost.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 so the 更多 信息 you have in front of you, the harder it is to pay 注意力 to what's 重要. 而且 that's where 我认为 the older adults 确实 lose some of their functioning. Because basically, I talk about in the book, and it's not a perfect analogy, is neurons are functioning kind of like a democracy in the sense that real democracies involve these political coalitions or alliances, 对吧？ 而且 人们 talk about the right and the left, but that's dumb 因为 it's like they're 确实 just alliances between 人们 who like 不同 things.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 they just form these convenient alliances with each other, 对吧？ 但是 let's just imagine, neurons kind of do this in the 大脑, 对吧？ 而且 so you have, in theory, to be able to pay 注意力 to something, some coalition of neurons has to be firing a lot that is corresponding to the thing that you're trying to pay 注意力 to.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 但是 if something is salient, bright, shiny, loud, it's just grabbing your 注意力. What's going to 发生 is that those neurons start to shout down the neurons that are trying to keep you on what's not shiny, but it's 重要, 对吧？ 而且 so what 发生s is with the prefrontal cortex, 你可以 bias that competition. Now, that's the term that 人们 have used in the literature. 所以 what 人们 have found, for instance, just a 确实 cool finding, again, is 你可以 find in the visual cortex neurons that fire when you're seeing something red, neurons that fire when you see something blue, let's say, 对吧？ I'm kind of distorting the picture, but you get the idea. 所以 If an animal is trying to hold in mind something, let's say hold on a mental picture of something that's blue, what 发生s is the blue neurons are firing in visual cortex even though the animal's not seeing blue. It's just they're thinking about blue. You damage the prefrontal cortex, nothing. 所以 you lose that selectivity. 所以 what's 发生ing is the prefrontal cortex is biasing the competition and saying, "I know there's no shiny blue thing in front of you right now, but I need these neurons to stay active." 而且 so it's doing this modulation to help out the neurons that are keeping the 信息 that's goal relevant. 所以 what 发生s when that communication goes, let's say due to hypertension, diabetes, you get all this white matter damage that 发生s with old age, and this is 确实-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： …… a big thing that is 非常 preventable with the right protocols, so to speak.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： I'll just briefly, white matter are the fiber tracts, the wires essentially that connect neurons across long and short distances. 是的。

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Exactly, yeah. 而且 so if you damage those long-range tracts, the prefrontal cortex is not efficiently able to bias that competition, and so now the inane gets 记住ed at the expense of the 重要.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： That's, 我认为, the key thing, and that's why 人们 talk about the prefrontal cortex as the central executive. As anybody who's worked a job knows, it's like the executives are use更少, 对吧？ You try to get an executive to do-- Except for some who are useful, but then they don't 确实 run companies 非常 well.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： There are some CEOs that are doing spectacular things, but-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 那么, okay, we won't go there. Controversial, shall we say. 但是 any方式, so a good executive, their job isn't to micromanage. Their job is to say, "Here's the big picture. Here's my vision for the company, and I want e非常one to be working towards this goal." Not sifting through the mail room, not paying the bills. 而且 so what 发生s is that when you have certain kinds of things that 发生 with aging, like damage to the white matter that 发生s through essentially tiny cerebrovascular events most likely, and we've done some 研究 on this in our lab in collaboration with Bill Jagust, who's now in Berkeley, and Charlie DeCarli, and 你可以 measure this in MRIs with a measure called white matter hyperintensities. You use a scan that shows up little bright spots where the white matter is probably damaged. 而且 what you find is that these 人们 with white matter hyperintensities actually have 记忆 performance that's as poor as 人们 who have hippocampal atrophy, probably in the earliest stages of Alzheimer's.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 they're also bad at controlling 信息 even when they don't have to 记住 something.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Interesting.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 所以 it's like a double whammy, and it's like the executive is trapped in a remote place, and they got no internet access and no phone, and so they can't communicate with the company as e非常body's just doing their own thing. 而且 that's a little bit of what can 发生 with aging. It doesn't have to, but that can 发生. 而且 you see this to a 确实 great extent in many disorders. 这是 why so many disorders 确实 affect control and frontal function. Multiple sclerosis, diabetes, many kinds of things. We talked about 大脑 fog, but many kinds of inflammatory conditions will affect it. Depression, clinical depressions. I've seen 人们, older adults with depression, who are 认知ly 更多 impaired than 人们 in the MCI stage of Alzheimer's.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Really?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yes.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 所以 depression is dangerous for 记忆.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： It's terrible for 记忆, and it seems to be a risk factor for Alzheimer's as well.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Do you think that depression is dangerous for 记忆 and a risk factor for Alzheimer's 因为 it is, by definition, anti-好奇心?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： I would probably not say that.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 好.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： I would say also, I don't know what-- Once you get into these things in the epidemiological 世界, e非常thing interacts with each other.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Right.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 there's genetics, and there's environment, and blah, blah, blah.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Depression means poor 睡眠, which means poor 学习ing, which means et cetera. 是的。

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 我认为 that's a big 部分 of it. 我认为 that's a big 部分. 好, so let's go back to your 问题, 因为 I do think 好奇心 is affected by depression. I don't know the 研究 on this, but I would be shocked if it isn't. 而且 I do think that 多巴胺 activity is disrupted in depression, and your motivation to get anhedonia is one of the hallmark symptoms of depression. As is rumination, by the 方式, which is 记忆 retrieval of preferential negative retrieval of negative events-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Right

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： …… and cogitating over them.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： I'd like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors, Function. I recently became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. While I've long been a fan of blood testing, I 确实 wanted to find a 更多 in-depth program for analyzing blood, urine, and saliva to get a full picture of my heart 健康, my hormone status, my immune system regulation, my metabolic function, my vitamin and mineral status, and other critical areas of my overall 健康 and vitality. Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to physical and mental 健康, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors on your results. For example, in one of my 首先 tests with Function, I 学习ed that I had too high levels of mercury in my blood. This was totally surprising to me. I had no idea prior to taking the test. Function not only helped me detect this, but offered medical doctor-informed insights on how to best reduce those mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, 因为 I had been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat 更多 leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification, and worked to reduce my mercury levels. Comprehensive lab testing like this is so 重要 for 健康, and while I've been doing it for years, I've al方式s found it to be overly complicated and expensive. I've been so impressed by Function, both at the level of ease of use, that is, getting the tests done, as well as how comprehensive and how actionable the tests are, that I recently joined their advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the 播客. If you'd like to try Function, go to function健康.com/huberman. Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 人们, but they're offering early access to Huberman Lab listeners. Again, that's function健康.com/huberman to get early access to Function. You probably think a fair amount about 与年龄相关的 认知 decline and Alzheimer's.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 而且 I'm just 好奇, at a 人al level, what are the sorts of things that you do to try and offset 认知 decline? You seem to be a 非常 vivacious and 好奇 人. I've known you a long time, and I don't know whether or not you were caffeinated e非常 time we met, but you have a lot of energy. You're a 非常 好奇 人. You just wrote a book, we'll talk 更多 about, and you're going on 播客s. You're doing a lot of things besides running a 世界-class 研究 laboratory. 所以 clearly, a lot of 好奇心. What do the data say about 方式s to maintain or enhance one's 记忆 capacity, with the 理解ing that 好奇心 is probably involved, as we talked about earlier, but at a 确实 basic level? A number of things leap to mind, but I'm just 好奇, if you had to pick three to five things that are clearly substantiated in the data as supporting the maintenance or enhancement of 记忆 as we get older, what are those?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： As a 记忆 研究er, I almost find myself ashamed when I talk about these things, 因为 as you know, so many of the most 重要 factors are ones that are related to just 健康. 所以 for instance, you mentioned 睡眠. That's a big one. Actually, there's a beautiful 研究 that speaks to this that was done, 29,000 subjects in China, and they followed them up for 10 years. 所以 they divided 人们 into three groups. 那么, what they said is there's six lifestyle factors that we're going to investigate. One was, 我认为, engagement in 认知 activities. 我认为 one was social engagement. One was physical exercise, not smoking, 我认为 no alcohol. 但是 they identified these lifestyle factors that were basically just kind of good lifestyle factors, 对吧？ 所以 they get 人们 who have four to six of these lifestyle factors going, versus zero to one of these lifestyle factors. We'll just take the extreme. When they start, they're all 相同. Ten years later, the 人们 with four to six lifestyle factors going for them are performing almost twice as high on 记忆 tests as the 人们 with zero to one lifestyle factors.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Wow. 所以 these are 人们 exercising, paying 注意力 to their 睡眠, social engagement.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： What are some of the other?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Oh, 我相信-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： I'm guessing low inflammatory diet.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 Definitely not smoking. 而且 smoking and alcohol, 我认为, were big ones.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： The smoking one is 有意思 因为 我们知道 smoking can cause cancer-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… and cardiovascular risk is real there, 尽管 there are some data, as I 理解, that nicotine itself, not smoking, vaping, dipping, or snuffing, but that nicotine-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Mm

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… can be pro-cognition and maybe even pro-记忆. 而且 nowadays-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… 人们 are using nicotine 更多 and 更多. I'm not a big proponent of this 因为 of the blood pressure increase and the typical routes of administration are dangerous.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 但是 nicotine, I've been told, is protective for Parkinson's and Alzheimer's. Is that true?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 那么, by the 方式, I just have to say, I forgot 健康y diet. Healthy diet was a big one, too.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Right. Which I define as, 人们 wonder, what is that? 而且 there are all these online debates about-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yeah

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… vegan, vegetarian, carnivore, blah, blah, blah. 但是 我认为 most 人们 in the 世界 are omnivores. Most. 而且 我认为 it's 非常 clear that the number one thing for a 健康y diet is to try and get most of one's food from non-processed or minimally processed sources.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： That sort of sets you in the right direction.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 所以 I was actually emailing with Dean and Ayesha Sherzai, who 确实 talk a lot about this.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯. Yeah, they do great work.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： They do great work.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 是的。

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 so they were actually sending me some stuff, and I had known about some of this, but Mediterranean diet has worked 确实 well.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Olive oil, fruits, vegetables, fish, eggs, limited amounts of meat. Although I'm half Argentine, so I'm a-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yeah, you like your steaks.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： I do.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 Which 我认为 is, let me come back to this point, 因为 我认为 it's super 重要, but leafy greens were a big one. They pointed out a Rush Presbyterian 研究 that I didn't know about that put 人们 on, 我认为 it was called the DASH diet, and it included leafy greens as a big 部分 of it, and that had a dramatic increase in 认知-- dramatically preserved 认知 performance in 人们 who were on that diet. 所以 the 健康y diet is a big 部分. Now, nicotine's 有意思. 所以 if you notice, a lot of 人们 with schizophrenia smoke, and one of the things that's been found is that nicotine does seem to improve 认知 functioning in 人们 with schizophrenia. Now, 我认为 the big thing to 记住 about any kind of drug, and this goes for food effects probably, too, but especially drugs, is there's huge individual differences. Huge. 而且 so just to give you an example, I could not function without that coffee that I had this morning and then coming in here. 但是 my daughter would not be functional after those cups of coffee.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 所以me 人们 确实 are affected by these 不同 things 不同ly. 而且 then, of course, there's al方式s a dose-response curve, and they often follow these inverted U's. 所以 Mark D'Esposito, who was my postdoc mentor, did a lot of work with 多巴胺rgic drugs. 而且 a lot of 人们 who had done these drug 研究 early on, on cognition, they would find no effects, or 有时 they would 使 人们 worse. 而且 what he found was that if you looked 更多 carefully, there was an inverted U effect, where some 人们, and it depended on their working 记忆 capacity, were actually benefiting from the drug. 而且 then these other 人们 who were, let's say, I can't 记住 if it was higher or lower, were doing worse.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 there's a genetic component to that, unsurprisingly. Dopamine transporters play a role and so forth. 而且 so now you start to get into all of these gene-environment drug interactions that are just, I would 确实 caution 人们 against saying, "Nicotine is good. Nicotine is bad." 我认为 it 确实 is a much 更多 complex issue. It's just like marijuana, 对吧？ 所以 你可以 look at smoking weed in adolescence For 人们 who are at high genetic risk for psychosis, it dramatically increases your risk for psychosis.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： That's my 理解ing too.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Although the times I've said that on the internet, I caught a lot of pushback from some of the cannabis 研究ers. 但是 then having invited one of them on this 播客-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… I then got subsequent input from other 研究ers which counter their narrative, which 我们可以 both say 因为 we're both 研究 scientists, that's what you call a field. 是的。 所以-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 好, maybe cut out any mis信息 I might have said in the edit.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： No, you didn't.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 我认为 the point is just that it's 非常 clear that there are certain individuals for whom high THC consumption can trigger psychotic episodes.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yeah, and we're seeing this with-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 但是 not e非常one.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 而且 so-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： We're now 有意思ly seeing this with psychedelics, where it's like all these positive effects of psychedelics are being brought up, but a lot of 人们 记住 the negative effects on 人们 like Rocky Erickson from the 13th Floor Elevators or Syd Barrett from Pink Floyd, who became psychotic after doing large amounts of LSD.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： What was the 首先 example? Rocky-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Rocky Erickson from the 13th Floor Elevators. Great psychedelic band.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Oh, psychedelic. 好, we'll talk 更多 about that. Charon is himself a rock and roll musician and loves rock and roll, hence the reference to Rick Rubin earlier.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 而且 there's a photo of Rick here in the studio that our photographer, Mike Blabac, took. 所以 we were looking at that together. 所以 yes, psychedelics have claimed the minds of certain 人们, helped contribute to their preexisting, presumably, psychosis. I should also say, in fairness to the other compounds out there, methamphetamines have also significantly contributed to the progression of psychosis in many 人们.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Absolutely.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 所以 it's not just psychedelics.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Right.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 而且 then, of course, there are those who have somehow managed to take psychedelics and become 更多 sane.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯. Yeah, and I saw this-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Or at least remain at least as sane as they were before.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 而且 of course, sanity's in the eye of the beholder, too. 但是 what I'll say is that, yeah, and 你可以 see this actually, there's some new concern about Adderall and stimulants. 而且 if you're giving it to 人们 who might be at high risk for schizophrenia, it might also promote psychosis.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： That 使s sense-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Makes sense

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… given the noradrenergic 多巴胺rgic involvement in schizophrenia, and those drugs are proto-noradrenergic 多巴胺rgic in general.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 Exactly. 所以 it's 确实 a much 更多 complicated interaction, and 我认为 this is where this whole realm of 人alized medicine will be super helpful.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 但是 there does seem to be a broad general effect for certain dietary interventions. Berries seem to be good. Leafy greens seem to be good.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 所以 eat 健康y. We talked about that. Exercise.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 而且 my 理解ing, I've been looking at this in detail lately, but I'd love your thoughts, is that while e非常body, we now believe men, women, et cetera, should do both cardiovascular exercise-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… so to speak, elevate heart rate for 12 to 60 minutes kind of thing, depending on the intensity, as well as resistance training-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… to maintain neuromuscular function, offset sarcopenia, et cetera. To me, the 确实 impressive effects of exercise on 学习ing capacity and the 大脑 in terms of 大脑 健康-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… seem to come from cardiovascular exercise.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 而且 that could just be 因为 that's what's been emphasized in the 研究.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 但是 even when one looks at some and compares the best human 研究-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… it 确实 does seem like getting blood flow up to the 大脑-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yeah

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… getting a nice release of neuromodulators into the 大脑 facilitates 学习ing.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 而且 then, of course, 人们 have to do something with that 学习ing.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Right? 所以, do you 使 an effort to exercise for the specific purpose of maintaining or enhancing 大脑 function?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yes. 是的。 Actually, so when I finished my book, I limped to the finish line. I had all sorts of crazy stuff 发生. I won't depress the readers with all the crazy stuff that I've gone through.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： No, I'm sure 人们 will be 好奇. 那么, what does it take to finish a book and how much-- You mean you took a toll on your body?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： It took probably, I don't know, I probably lost some biological years in that. 但是 it was great. It was 确实 an emotional rollercoaster, though. 但是 then I had a bunch of, I'm trying to do science, write this book basically in my spare time, which doesn't 确实 exist as you know how it goes.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Sure.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 then I had life 发生. My mom was in the hospital, and my cat died on my birthday. It was just like, yeah, see, I didn't want to depress 人们 with all this stuff.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： It's real life.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 但是 it was like-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： I'm just sorry to hear it.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 No. It's okay. 所以 then I finished my book, and I was just thoroughly thrashed, and I had a sabbatical 因为 I wanted to have time to promote the book and educate 人们 about what's in the book, which I'd never gotten a chance to do before. It's like doing this. Fantastic, 对吧？ I get to talk to 人们. 所以, I 确实 wanted to 使 some changes, and actually, this gets to something we were talking about before we started recording, which is, after I wrote the book, it's going in the proofing stage, I was talking to my daughter, and just out of the blue, she said, we were talking about ADHD, and she's like: "Dad, you totally have ADHD." 而且 I'm like: "What?" 而且 I'm like, oh, Gen Z, overdiagnosis of ADHD, whatever, 对吧？ 而且 then I 记住ed when I was a kid, my school contacted my parents and said: "He has ADHD." 而且 it was 有意思 因为 it was like I actually was ahead in school by a year, and I got held back 因为 I just was so socially bad. I couldn't stop talking in class, and I was just 确实 awkward and impulsive. 但是 it was the '70s. Nobody did anything.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 I had all sorts of behavior issues and so forth, and there are other factors going on, too. 但是 it 确实 got me thinking, oh my God, I got to 使 some changes. I'm living this unsustainable life where I'm jumping from crisis to crisis to crisis, and I say, "I don't have time for blah, blah, blah." 而且 so Again, this is going to sound depressing, but it's got a happier ending. 所以 my dog had died in 2019 of cancer, and that was my 首先 dog. 而且 so I thought, "I'm never getting a dog again." 而且 in 2020 in the pandemic, I got another dog 因为 I was like-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Good for you.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yeah, and-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： What kind of dog?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Both of these were shelter dogs.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Great. Good for you.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： They're all mixes. I'm sure there's some pit bull in her 因为 e非常 shelter dog either has pit bull or-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Or Chihuahua

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： …… or Chihuahua, exactly. 但是 she looks 非常 Belgian Malinois, and she moves like a Belgian Malinois.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Beautiful dogs.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 而且 they're so smart and super athletic. She can jump vertically. When I'll come home, she'll jump up and then push herself off me, which is a 非常 classic thing, and so that's why they can jump. She can climb up seven feet up a tree to chase a squirrel.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Yeah, they use these for military operations-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yeah

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… in Tier 1 military. 是的。

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： They're trained to jump out of planes-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yeah

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… with parachutes.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 但是 she's a smaller dog, so our older dog looked like kind of-- She wasn't. She was actually a Kelpie mix, 我认为, but she looked like a Rottweiler, and so e非常one was scared of her, even though she was the sweetest dog. This one, she's smaller, even though she looks kind of shepherd-like. E非常one's like, "Oh, your dog is so sweet. She's so cute."

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： You're like, "但是 this one's the ninja."

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Exactly. 是的。 All shelter dogs have a little bit of a crazy switch in them, don't they? It's tough for them.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： They're like feral 人们, feral dogs. 是的。

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 但是 they have big hearts-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yeah

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… 因为 they're eternally grateful-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yeah

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… you give them a home.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的，正是如此。 而且 one of the things that I was thinking is I missed walking the dog. I missed that activity, and so I 使 sure to do that e非常 morning. 而且 this goes back to some of the activity things that we were talking about. I know I'm totally drifting a方式 from ADHD-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： No, I see where you're coming

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： …… which is ironic, 对吧？

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： No, I see where you're going with this.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 这是 a little bit 不同, but it's related, which is having a sense of purpose is 非常 重要 for 健康y 大脑 aging. There's a "Trends in Cognitive Sciences" article. I could send you that. It's one of these things that neuroscientists don't talk about 因为 we don't 理解 it. 但是 it's hugely 重要 as 部分 of this whole phenomenon, what they call 认知 reserve. 而且 having this dog that I'm taking care of, especially 因为 my kid had gone to college, he's grown up, living independently, walking this dog e非常 day, it gives him-- Obviously, I'm married, and I love my family, and I've got lots of them. I've got a lot of my students and so forth. 但是 it gave me 更多, and I'm exercising in a 方式 that's kind of fun. I'm listening to 播客s, and I'm moving, and so that's something right there. It's not just the exercise, but it's the whole thing. I'm not doing something that I hate. 所以 then I'm like, I hate running. I have this inertia 因为 my ADHD 大脑 doesn't like to do stuff un更少 it's shiny and fun. 而且 I could go into work, or I could write this book 因为 it's fun for me. 所以 I'm like, "How can I do this?" 而且 so I ended up shelling out for a 人al trainer. I blew my advance on a 人al trainer who's great. 而且 I go to see her, and she tells me what to do, so I don't have to think about it, and it's fun, and it's-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： You're in great shape.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Oh, thank you.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： You're a few years older than I am, and I haven't seen you in a while, and I al方式s have this slight fear when I run into a colleague again after a while, 因为 there was this joke that we didn't tell professors until we became professors about the so-called tenured look. When you see someone come in as a post-doc, you see them as a junior professor, and then you see them after tenure.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 而且 tenure is a big milestone, 对吧？

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： It corresponds to academic freedom, et cetera. It's a wonderful milestone. It's a wonderful thing that we both have this. 但是 you see some 人们 who got tenure, and you just go, "Oh, goodness. They look like they're age 25 years in five years."

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： We also see this with former presidents.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Not all of them, but a lot of them. 而且 so to run into you, well, I saw you on Alex Friedman's 播客-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… but then to see you, I'm like, "Charan's taking great care of himself."

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Oh.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： It 使s me happy. It's not a judgment. It 使s me happy 因为 I love my colleagues, and I want to see them live a 非常 long time 因为-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yeah

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… I don't subscribe to the idea that science progresses one funeral at a time of my favorite scientists.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 好. Let's not attach that saying to me. It was a joke.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： No, I'm saying that there are certain scientists for whom-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： I love my fellow scientists.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： I do, too.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： If you're out there anywhere, don't hate me.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： There are certain scientists that you'd love to see live forever, and you're one of them. 所以, you said walking the dog, which presumably gets you some sunlight.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： A lot of sunlight in Davis-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… even in the winter.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Once the cloud cover is bright up there-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yeah

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… it gets you on a regular 睡眠 rhythm. 但是 you said this sense of purpose.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Right? 而且 I'm 好奇 about how you now frame exercise. You said you don't like working out. You made an investment in your 健康-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… by paying a trainer, so now you train regularly.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 而且 that's also an investment in your 大脑 健康.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 而且 if we were to go back to this notion of sense of purpose, are you talking about a larger sense of purpose, like, okay, I want to contribute to 理解ing of how the 大脑 works. You're a 大脑 explorer, after all, and 因此, the exercise and the money you put towards a trainer is linked to the ability to do that, or are you linking these nodes? Or are these kind of separate entities like, "I want to be 健康ier, and here's a 方式 to be 健康ier, and ergo, I'll be around longer to 研究 the 大脑"?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： To me, and again, I'm not a social psychologist, so this is a little bit out of my wheelhouse, but to me, the sense of purpose is kind of this existential thing of I've got to take care of this dog. When I look at this dog, and she's moping around in the corner, I feel bad, but I feel like it's my responsibility to do something.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 所以 duty.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： With my students-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： I see. Duty.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 With my students, I was 非常, 非常 fortunate to have Many 人们 leave my lab after the pandemic, which destroyed so many careers, and many 人们 left my lab, and I got faculty positions, and I'm so happy for them.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Speaks to your mentoring as well.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 那么, thank you.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 是的。

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： You do well 因为 you have good 人们 in the lab, as you know.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： It's true.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 但是 what was 有意思 was I'd finished the book, and my lab was relatively empty, and I did feel purpose更少. I felt that absence of that sense of this bigger thing. 而且 so 部分 of the work is, and this was a thing that I felt doing the book promotion is, I feel a sense of purpose in explaining science to 人们. I got an email this morning as I was getting on the plane from somebody who was asking me a 问题 about 记忆, and I was just like, "这是 so cool." After you spend years lecturing students, and some of them are 睡眠ing in class, and you wonder, is anybody 确实 impacted by this? 而且 this has been a beautiful thing. 所以 that gives me a sense of purpose. I've 确实 rededicated myself to 研究, and we're doing these huge computational models of 学习ing, and I'm trying to get-- We're doing VR stuff, and we're going to be doing all sorts of new things in the 研究. 而且 that gives me a sense of purpose. 但是 a lot of it to me, about the connection thing that you bring up, it's super 重要 因为 often I find myself, again, 因为 it's an ADHD thing, for all of these things that I like, there's things that you have to do that suck. 而且 for me, that suckiness is utterly painful. 而且 I know there's a lot of 人们 like, I know ADHD is over-diagnosed right now for reasons that are 有意思. 而且 I know a lot of 人们, it's 非常 kind of fashionable to say stuff, something like that maybe. I don't know. People can be judgy about this stuff. 但是 for me, it 确实 is painful. I've actually found that it's hard for me to work with certain 人们 if they talk slowly. It's that tough.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Interesting.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 所以 I've 确实 had to think about-- 所以 I actually hooked up with an ADHD coach who has been phenomenal for me, and I know coaches are another controversial thing.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Not in my 世界.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： You want to 学习 something, you 学习 something from somebody who's skilled in how to improve somebody at something.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 那么, I didn't know what to expect 因为 it's like an unregulated 世界, so to speak, or minimally regulated. 但是 the 人 I found was just amazing, and the 首先 thing she had me do was she had me write down a sheet of all my values and order them and rank them, and so on. I'm thinking, this is such a waste of time. 所以rry, Laurie, but I was thinking initially, "这是 such a waste of time. Why am I doing this? I don't 确实 value any. I don't know. I just do things. I don't necessarily value them or whatever." 但是 then I started writing them down, and then later I was talking to her about some of my troubles with motivation and getting things done that I don't want to do, and I'm kind of infamous for having trouble getting things done that I don't want to do in terms of administrative tasks and so forth.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： You're a real scientist.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 那么, that's true, I guess. ADHD is-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Any scientist that likes administrative stuff, 我认为 I'm willing to call out-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： God b更少 them

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… as what are they doing in science? Because that's like you're supposed to be 专注ing on 实验s, so bravo. 所以 values, then motivation.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 所以 basically, it's like, then I put the two together, and I said, "I'm not giving myself credit for why I'm doing this." 所以 this goes back to the whole, in a 方式, it goes back to the prefrontal cortex conversation is, what's my goal? If I'm going to see someone and have a meeting, and I don't feel like going to the meeting 因为 I'm tired and I'm bored, or I want to just look at this YouTube video, or I want to go on social media or whatever dumb thing that I waste my time on, 对吧？ I say to myself, "那么, why am I doing this?" 而且 I remind myself of that motivation, and it kicks e非常thing in gear 因为 now I have that goal in place, 因为 the goal just doesn't pop up for me automatically. 而且 so relating what I do to values is a game changer for me, but it's a conscious thing that I have to work on to remind myself of those values and connect them, and that's 部分 of what 我认为 人们 lose when they retire, for instance. I see this in 人们 I'm close to who have retired. They feel like work is their only purpose. 而且 so afterwards, they feel purpose更少, and then they're just doing things like doom scrolling or being radicalized on the internet or going into, but it's just like whatever captures their 注意力. 而且 我认为, so a big 部分 of that sense of purpose for me has 确实 been to get in touch with what do I 确实 want? 而且 this goes back to another thing with 记忆. Again, I know this is a total ADHD pre-association thing, but it's like, 人们 often ask me, okay, fine. Give me all this stuff for 大脑 aging, and we didn't even get into hearing aids and vision testing and-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： We'll-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： …… oral hygiene and so forth.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Yeah, we'll talk about those three things.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 但是 what I tell 人们 is, I can tell you lots of strategies for 记住ing names, for 记住ing where you've been, for trying to 记住 to do something in the 未来. 所以me of the hardest 记忆 challenges we have. 但是 un更少 you do them, do those strategies, I can't help you. 而且 the problem is, and this speaks to, I 确实 liked what you said. We do have to talk about some exceptions, like retrieval-induced 忘记ting and some 有意思 things like the pretesting effect. 但是 your thing on 研究 skills, I listened to that 播客, and I was like, the beautiful thing that you did with that, one of them, was that you said, "Assume that you will 忘记." Because if you go back to the earliest 研究 on 记忆 by Ebbinghaus, he tested himself, and he actually created these weird words called trigrams that weren't 确实 words. He tried to memorize them, and what he found was within 20 minutes, he had forgotten about half of what he memorized. 而且 I don't mean just forgotten, like he couldn't bring it to mind. It took him as long to re-memorize them as it was if he had never done it, 对吧？ 所以 有时 we have 部分ial 记忆 where 我们可以't recall it, but we get some savings and it's easier for us to 学习. He didn't even have that for a lot of the stuff. 所以 then he waited 24 hours, and he had lost two-thirds of what he had memorized, 对吧？ 所以 translate this into the real 世界. There are some things that are caveats that we do better in the real 世界, I would say, at the big things, the gist of what we encounter. 但是 the details, we lose most of them. Most of the details of your life will be gone.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 I would argue this is even true for 人们 with highly superior autobiographical 记忆. We don't know for sure, but I can tell you 更多 about that. 这是 true for e非常one who's been studied, as far as I know. 而且 so if that's the case, the 问题 is not, why am I so 忘记ful? It's why do we 记住 in the 首先 place? It's why that titled it for the book. 而且 the 问题 is, what do you want to 记住? What are the memories that you want to take with you? Whether it's memorizing things for a class, like in 研究 skills, or whether it's your kid's birthday 部分y, which I talk about in chapter one. It's about intention is what I say. It's the difference between 注意力, which can be grabbed by anything, versus intention, which is saying, "这是 what I want to take with me," 对吧？

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Let's hover on that. Attention versus intention. We hear these words all the time. Attention is the directing of one's perception to 部分icular sensations or things in one environment-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… is the 方式 loosely defined. Accurate but not exhaustive.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Intention is 理解ing why we're having a 认知 sense, maybe a 认知 emotional sense, of why I am directing my perception to 部分icular things. Is that 对吧？

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yes. It is directing your 注意力 based on some reason that's an internal goal, 对吧？ 而且 that's where the prefrontal cortex 确实 comes in.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 所以 it's 非常 easy, in some 方式s, to pay 注意力 to me if I'm gesticulating, and I'm talking 非常 loudly 因为 it's grabbing your 注意力 constantly. Let's face it, I know lots of 人们 in my life who hate this 因为 I'm so loud and gesticulatory.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： You're not loud. Who are these 人们 giving you this feedback? Send me their names and numbers. I have words for them. 而且 listen, I would say, given that you run a 世界-class laboratory, you're successful in your family life, you're successfully raising your 其次 daughter, you've written a spectacular book, you're going on 播客s, you're educating the public, I would say you're doing great.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 谢谢。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 所以 keep going. 而且 whoever these 人们 are, we'll have words with them.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： I need Huberman's words of encouragement on my phone that I could just open up. Plus, you're-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 那么, I don't want to take us off track, but I spend a lot of time each morning, I 首先 do a non-睡眠 deep rest or some sort of meditation. Rick Rubin taught me this, to get into intention, and there are other 人们 who have come into my life recently. This notion of intention-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… the reason I said let's hover on it, is so 重要.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Because we are in a 世界 where things will grab our 注意力.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Especially on social media.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： It's basically a war for 注意力.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： I don't think it's an 注意力 economy any更多. Herb Simon's brilliant, I'm not trying to take anything a方式 from that, but it's a war for 注意力, and one of the 方式s that you rob your competitors is by taking their 注意力.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： I used to joke when I was in a 非常 competitive area as a post-doc, I was competing against a big lab at Harvard, and this and that, and we're trying to find genetic markers for retinal neurons, et cetera. 而且 I said, "If I could just get them excited about 'The Wire.'" Remember that show, "The Wire?"

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯. 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Because it'll suck 15 hours of those post-docs' time. 所以 I thought it'd be 确实 diabolical. I didn't do it, but telling 人们, like, "You have to see 'The Wire,'" this and that. Because you get someone on a 确实 good Netflix program-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… and if they're a competitor, you just got a competitive advantage.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 但是 this is being done all day long, 对吧？

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： In any case, 注意力 is our ability for our perception to be drawn to whatever is moving most, loudest, most salient.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Intention is 不同.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯. Yeah, and this, by the 方式, isn't a technical term. 这是 just I like it-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Sure

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： …… 因为 it rhymes, and a friend of mine came up with it. 但是 yes, intention is your ability to say, "这是 what's 重要 to me right now, and that's why I need to pay 注意力 to it."

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Hence the values list.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Hence the values list. Because if I don't keep that in mind…… 所以 we tend to think of control as being just like willpower, or like you want to do the right thing, or whatever. It's not. There's so many 部分s of it, 确实, but a big 部分 of it is motivation.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 motivation is not a trivial thing. It's not simply wanting to do the right thing, but being able to keep that value in mind and retrieve that value, 因为 e非常thing has a value associated with, 对吧？ 而且 有时 things that are, I'm thirsty, and there's water in front of me, that has a big value, and that should grab my 注意力. 所以 it's not that having your 注意力 shift, you want it to be flexible.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 但是 you want to keep these higher order goals in mind, and so it's this balance between stability and flexibility. Now, let's get to your specific example of technology, 对吧？ 所以 ever since I got a phone, that is a smartphone, my 首先 iPhone, which I-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： When was that? Mine was 2010.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Mine was, oh, you did better than me, 我认为. Maybe it was around 相同. It was iPhone 3, 我认为 was my 首先.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 好.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： We'll have to look up when those-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 我认为 I had the iPhone 3, which was whenever that came out.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 是的。

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 所以 until then, I would check email when I was at a computer. When I'm not, I don't think about it. Now It's al方式s there, and you get alerts on your phone, 对吧？ 所以 let's play this out now. We're having this great conversation. Let's say we leave, we talk about skateboarding and punk rock, and we're like, "Yes, why didn't we talk about this on the 播客?" We're having a great conversation. 但是 now let's say I didn't put my phone on 专注 mode, and I start getting all these little beeps on my phone. I know 人们. I played in a band with somebody who had ADHD, and anytime we were in a conversation, he would just check his text messages. 所以metimes he would text in front of me. 所以 what 发生s is e非常 time you do that, you're essentially shifting your task. Your mindset changes. Your intention is somewhat changed by this new task. 所以 now I've shifted, and there's a cost associated with that. In fact, actually, 人们 who 研究 this, there's four or five 不同 costs that go on. It 使s you slower to do the new thing. Now I go back to the conversation. 那么, now I have another cost associated with that. 而且 so I'm not there where you are in this moment. I'm several 其次s behind you, and I'm still catching up while you're talking, and that requires even 更多 control to get caught up and get back up to speed. 所以 I'm straining my mental resources, I'm straining my 认知 control by shifting back and forth. 但是 here's an even worse 部分 of it. 所以 a 记忆, we haven't even talked about this, but it's like a lot of our 忘记ting 发生s 因为 we have these blurry memories. They're not distinctive. You don't get a population of neurons that shouts out loud, "Hey, that's this conversation I had with 而且y." It's just this blurry sense of, I talked to someone on a 播客, let's say. Not saying that this will 发生 now, 因为 it won't. 所以 I have this blurry 记忆. 那么, why does that 发生? 那么, 部分 of it is you have to catch the distinctive moments of these events, and you have to associate them together into this cohesive narrative. One of the things we've found in our 研究, and other 人们 have found this, is when, let's say if you're watching a movie and somebody changes the topic of conversation or a character comes in, something that shifts your 注意力al 专注 and shifts your 理解ing of what's going on, you see this big peak in activation in the hippocampus. 而且 what that seems to be related to is encoding a 记忆 for what 发生ed up to that point. 而且 so we call that an event boundary. 而且 so once you have an event boundary, it turns out you go onto the next event, and you have trouble 记住ing the stuff that 发生ed right before the event boundary. It's why 人们 end up in the kitchen and they're like, "那么, what was my reason for coming here?" 而且 it's 因为 they passed through three 不同 rooms, and their sense of where they were was changing. Their mental context updated to the point where now they have to work to figure it out. 所以 this is what's 发生ing when we are shifting between 不同 tasks. I'm texting and I'm emailing, and then I'm talking to you. Or as you've probably seen in going to conferences, 人们, scientists who know better, are sitting typing emails while someone is giving…… I've done this 因为 I'm 注意力ally impaired, or I couldn't…… Actually, ADHD is a 认知 control issue, 我认为, but nonethe更少, it's like, I do this. 所以 it's like, I get it, but it's like you are now creating these fragments of memories where it's not I have a cohesive conversation. I have a little bit. I got a little bit 更多. 而且 those fragments of 记忆 don't play together well in 记忆. They can compete with each other, and that competition is a big 部分 of 忘记ting. 而且 so that's why it's super 重要 to just do one thing and then do another. If you want to do social media, fine, do it. Then do whatever it is you are supposed to do for work.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 但是 it's the shifting that 确实 kills you 因为 it saps your 认知 control. It actually creates these fragmented memories. It also actually increases 压力 levels. 所以 there's all sorts of things. I know there's a lot of tech bros who are just like, "Oh, no, I multitask. I'm great at it." You're not.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 那么, I'm from the Bay Area and spend a lot of time with those folks, men and women in tech. 我认为 that the best ones, the truly exceptional ones, are 非常 good at dropping into a trench of 注意力.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： They're 非常 disciplined with their phone use.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 而且 the ones that are doing a lot of task switching often don't have complete lives. They 确实 don't.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Oh.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： They're not taking care of their 健康 also, and they are sort of under the sense-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yeah

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… that they're working all the time when they're not. As a graduate student, I didn't have a smartphone. I did something recently. I tweeted about this. You may have commented about it, I don't know, but this has helped me a lot. I took an old phone.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Oh.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 而且 I put-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Oh, you told me, yeah

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… social media on the old phone.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 而且 only social media, so it doesn't operate as a phone. I can AirDrop things to it.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 所以 I use that for looking at social media and for posting.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： That phone is in a box.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 而且 then my main phone is for texting and other forms of communication. 所以 I still have that distraction around me, but social media is now a dedicated thing that I spend a specific amount of time, and I have a timer on that phone.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 所以 I allocate myself a certain amount of time each day. 所以 for e非常 moment, I start that timer.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Once it hits zero, that's it.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 而且 I'm starting to shorten that amount of time.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Nice.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： The impact on productivity in terms of writing, in terms of 研究ing, in terms of just dropping into conversation-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… has been enormous with that simple switch. 而且 I just find it easier to just segregate-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… social media from the phone. Part of the problem is that the phone is like a walking office.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yes.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： It's a phone. It's a computer. It's a this.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yes.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： It's just too much access.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 那么, and here's the thing, and this 确实 gets back to this idea of engineering your environment, and 因为 so much of our lives we're out of control, even though we feel like we're in control. 而且 it's 确实, if I have a higher goal, 有时 you have to do exactly what you did, which is hack your environment to enable you to regain control.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 所以 what I mean by this is it's like Even though I might not check my phone, I might have alerts off, if I have a habit, I'm thinking about it, and e非常 time 我认为 about it, that urge pops into mind, I'm getting a little distracted. I'm losing a little bit of executive control. 所以 you don't even have to do it, 对吧？

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： You can just think about it. 所以, and multitasking is just one thing. There's other things. One thing is, I talk about in the book, is taking pictures. 所以 you've probably been to concerts, I know I have, where it's like 人们 are just filming the whole things on their phone. Or now you see the rise of Instagram walls, where you go into places and there's a wall that exists so 人们 can post to Instagram. Nothing wrong with this, but most, not all of the 研究, 有意思ly, and I can get into why, shows that taking pictures actually impoverishes 人们's 记忆.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Really?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 People-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： What about looking at pictures of, 我认为 it was Larry Squire, when I was down at San Diego, that said that hanging a few pictures in your office of things that are 确实 pleasant memories can 确实 enhance your work environment 因为 you look at them, you go, "Oh, I 记住 that."

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Because of all the context it brings about. 但是 you're saying that the act of taking pictures depletes our 记忆 for that 经历.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Let me be 更多 specific about this, 对吧？ 所以 let's say I'm mind更少ly taking pictures. 所以 I go in, I'm seeing the Grand Canyon, I'm just like, . A lot of 人们 intuitively, on average, will say that they will 记住 it better 因为 they took pictures. 但是 what often 发生s is they're not 确实 专注ing on the distinctive elements of their 经历.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： They're just grabbing as much stuff as they can, 对吧？ Let's take the concert as another example. If you are filming the concert and you're just trying to grab what's being sung, you will have a recording of the concert. 但是 what's the 记忆 you want to have? Do you want to have a 记忆 of the song that you already can stream anytime? Or do you want the 记忆 of how you felt, the friends you were with, the connection that you had with the artist 因为 you were there? 而且 I know this sounds real hippy-dippy, but it's real-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： No, it is real

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： …… in the sense that this is what you want to 记住.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 我认为, at least I don't want to lecture 人们. If they want to 记住 taking pictures of things, that's fine. I'm sure e非常body 记住s taking pictures at these things. 但是 what did you take a picture of? 而且 so 你可以 use the phone, and this is where the 研究 show good effects, is if I mindfully use the phone and I say like, "There's something here that will be a good cue, that will remind me later of this great conversation," I 专注 the camera on that, I take a picture mindfully. I use the camera not as a 方式 of spreading my 注意力 and just grabbing e非常thing in this shotgun approach, but rather use it to find what's distinctive and what's 重要 and actually 专注 me on it. That's a 确实 good thing. 所以 what I try to do is selectively document, not over-document. I'll take a picture of 人们 laughing or 人们 eating. I like to go to conferences now. John Lisman used to do this, the late John Lisman, and so he passed a方式, and so now I try to do this. 我认为 更多 about these things. 而且 so I try to take pictures of 人们 randomly. They're drinking a beer, and then they spit it out laughing or something like that. 而且 these are not things that are landmarks. They're not things that are tourist stuff, but they are great retrieval cues. 而且 so what 发生s is, the next 部分 of it is seeing the picture. 那么, what do you do when you see the picture, 对吧？ Do you scroll 对吧？ Or do you use it as a cue to effectively test yourself to recall what 发生ed during that event and integrate it? Now, what's 有意思 is that act of recollecting the event in itself will change the 记忆, and it can 使 it 更多 accessible, but it can also 使 it a little bit 更多 abstract and story-like. 而且 so there is an 有意思 trade-off where you have these things where you have these memories, and you could even document it. The 更多 you retrieve it, the 更多 accessible it will be, but 有时 it'll be 更少 immersive and 更多 like a story that you've told 100 times.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 所以 it sounds like if we go on a vacation or to a show or something, that taking a photo, as long as it's intentional, of something specific, the key is to look at it later, not just post it, but to look at it later, and to spend a few moments or 更多 drawing to mind some of the emotional and 认知 经历s around that 记忆. That, 然而, changes the 记忆, 对吧？ Anytime we create a story, we're changing the 记忆. 但是 perhaps, provided it was a good 经历, that's better than to not access the photo at all. 但是 I'm struck by, as you are, the number of 人们 who are taking photos at a concert. A friend of mine who's a 非常 successful photographer, who shoots a lot of photos of musicians, thinks this is the craziest thing. As if any one of those photos is going to be meaningful, 对吧？ That they're outside of the 经历 of the concert-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yeah

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… which is exactly what you're describing. Maybe you just have a 记忆 of taking a lot of photos.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 That's exactly what 发生s. People will 记住 something, but their feeling, it's not like the friends they were with and what they talked about. I use this example in an interview, so apologies if 人们 have already seen this, but it's like I got to see The Descendants, and I'm guessing since you skateboarded, you probably had heard of The Descendants.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： The band, The Descendants?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： The band, The Descendants.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Milo and The Descendants.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 是的。

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Exactly.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 是的。

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 所以 I grew up listening to them in high school, but I never got to see them 因为 all the great bands I got into broke up right before, Black Flag and the Minutemen and so forth. 而且 so when they reunited, I had an opportunity to see them in a club in Sacramento. 而且 so I saw them for the 首先 time, and I wasn't one of the Kids taking photos, I was actually watching. 但是 then there was a moment where Bill Stevenson, the drummer, who's a super intense guy and 确实 one of the creative forces behind the band, he gets up, and he starts walking towards the crowd, and Milo's like, "Sit down, go back behind the drums." 而且 he's like, "No, I want to say something." 而且 I was like, I got to take a picture of this 因为 this is going to be like he's 确实 connecting with us. 而且 he talked about how cool it was to just be able to have this moment where he's now at this age able to appreciate this connection that he has with the audience that he couldn't appreciate before when he was younger. 而且 I was like, I'm taking a picture of this 因为 that's what I want to 记住. You won't 记住 e非常thing, but if I look at that photo, technically I haven't looked at that photo again, but just taking the picture of it-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： …… forced me to 确实 think about that, and that's the biggest takea方式 I have. A lot of the songs they played, they did a 确实 good job on. 但是 what I 确实 took a方式 from that was this connection that I had 确实 wanted when I was a kid.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 re-experiencing that feeling of being a kid and hearing these songs when they were fresh and new for me. 而且 so I know I'm sounding like kind of a hippie or something. That's not my style.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Not a hippie. You sound like a punk rocker. Let's not confuse the two. That's good.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的，正是如此。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： I like it.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： I got digressing all over the place now.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： No. I have a 问题 that I'm hoping binds some of this together, related to taking photos and memories. I keep many photos. I like printed photos. I have these in a drawer. They mean 非常 much to me. 所以me of them are in the studio. 但是 I keep most of them in a drawer at home. Polaroids are an 有意思 example, 我认为, of what you're describing. The act of taking a Polaroid is 更多 than just clicking or pressing with your thumb on a camera.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： There's a waiting process. You actually get to see the photo emerge over time. I would bet, even though I haven't run the 研究, I would bet that 人们 keep Polaroids and look at Polaroids 更多 than they keep other photos. Which, if you think about it, if it's true, is counterlogic 因为 通常 人们 want to do another photo 因为 they don't like the 方式 they looked in the previous photo. With Polaroids, 你可以't do too many of those.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Right? It's kind of one and done, maybe two and done. 但是 I feel like the act of taking the Polaroid, waiting for the photo to emerge, kind of stamps it in your 记忆 of the 经历 itself, and the act of taking the photo is 更多 involved. It's 更多 of a process than just a click.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： That then you see the photo later. Now, of course, with digital photography, you see it, but 你可以 take 100. You can take-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yeah

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… 200 photos like that. If we were to export this theme of limiting our task switching as a 方式 to enhance our 记忆, setting up our environment in a 方式 where we put our phone a方式, perhaps, and we also are 专注ed on intention, why we are in something. Do you think that there's something positively reinforcing about getting into a trench, as I call it? Because I find that conversations like this, one of the reasons I do this 播客, the solo episodes and these interviews, is that they provide something that my life prior to it did not provide, which was depth. We're just here. There's no phones here, and if there are, they're off. Right? 而且 I feel like any time we go into these trenches, could be a video game, could be an interaction with a loved one of various kinds, but when we go into these tunnels of 注意力, there's something that's so deeply satisfying about it, especially to those who have 注意力 deficit issues, that it feels like something real 发生ed, and the rest is just noise.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Is there any relationship of the 专注 system to release of 多巴胺? I know release of 多巴胺 can drive 专注, but is the reverse also true?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： That if you're in a state of 专注, do you enhance the release of 多巴胺?

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Correct. That's the 问题.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 那么, I don't know. I wish I could give you an 答案 and say I don't know. 而且 it would be 确实 hard to disentangle the chicken and the egg, 对吧？ Because if you're measuring 多巴胺 activity, you'd have to…… 那么, okay, so here's what I can say, is that 我认为 that we often think of let's say an emotion, right, or any other mental state, and we think of it like it just 发生s. 但是 in fact, there's a timescale to these things, 对吧？ 所以 it's like there is a basic response that you get when somebody points a gun at you, but then there's an interpretation that you have that can take that threat response and 使 it into something 更多, and then you're 确实 jacking up your noradrenergic activity, 对吧？

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯. You're catastrophizing.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 那么, in that case, it could be a catastrophe.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 但是 if you survive, you averted the catastrophe. The 问题 is, does the potential catastrophe live within you, or does it die within you? You only need it to live within you sufficiently enough that you avoid the threat in the 未来.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Right? 但是 that's-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yeah

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… the double-edged sword of noradrenergic systems, is that they capture lots of 记忆, and they open up thoughts about what could have gone wrong.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 但是 if it didn't go wrong, it didn't go wrong. You're alive. You only need to 记住 to avoid whatever puts you in that circumstance.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 但是 that can still be scary, 对吧？

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Sure.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 this is where 我认为 it's like, we talked about this before, this appraisal is 非常 重要. In the case of 专注, it's a little bit 不同, but just to 使 this 非常 concrete, the prefrontal cortex has top-down inputs to many of the neuromodulatory systems. 所以 On average, 人们 tend to think of the neuromodulatory systems like 多巴胺 and norepinephrine as being 非常 bottom-up. They just send signals e非常where and set the 大脑 into 专注 or not 专注 or whatever. 但是 the prefrontal cortex has some, anatomically at least, some capability of regulating those systems-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： …… both directly and indirectly. 而且 so that does, 我认为, speak to this idea that if you have a 非常 strong goal 专注, 你可以, in fact, regulate the 多巴胺 system. 我认为 it's a reasonable, and norepinephrine too, noradrenergic system.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 所以 我认为 it's a reasonable thing, and I'd bet you Amy Arnsten has done some related work on this topic.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： I'll check it out. Earlier you mentioned, and I want to 使 sure that we return to this notion of taking care of one's vision and one's hearing as a 方式 to offset 记忆 loss. Very 重要 concepts. Could you share with us what's known about that?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 这是 just starting to be a thing, but the effect sizes, for instance, for hearing aids, are 确实 strong, both in reducing AD risk, 我相信, and in-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Alzheimer's dementia

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： …… Alzheimer's risk, and in just good 认知 aging, and keeping your 记忆 as you get older. Even if you don't get-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 所以 don't listen to your headphones too loud, kids. Right?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 那么, actually, okay, so speaking of things I did to preserve my 大脑 健康, I'm playing in a band now, and we're pretty damn loud. 而且 so I went to an audiologist, and I got custom earplugs.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Oh, yeah.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 所以 there.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： All the top music-- I'm friends with some 确实 amazing musicians. They all wear insert earplugs.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Oh, yeah.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 是的。

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 但是 我认为 these custom ones will be 更多 effective at both preserving the spectrum of all the frequencies, so yeah.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 那么, I just mean protect your hearing.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 是的。

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： No, but yeah. 但是 they're related 因为 if 你可以't hear your frequencies, you might end up turning up, and you get this paradoxical-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Sure

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： …… thing, so too much 信息, I know. 但是 basically, that is, yeah. 所以 there is this issue with, in fact, actually, there's an article that Shirzai sent me in The Lancet, that one of their public 健康 recommendations is to get into a preventative mode for preventing Alzheimer's 疾病, and one of the things they say is screen for hearing and give 人们 hearing aids and 使 人们 use them if they have, encourage 人们 to use them. Vision is starting to be a big one. People who are older get cataracts, get it treated. A lot of this preventative 健康care, which our system is not 确实 equipped for it, but it can 确实 save so much money, it can save so much emotional pain for so many 人们. It's 确实 amazing. Another one I mentioned briefly is oral hygiene. Gum 疾病, it turns out, increases your risk for, 我相信 it's Alzheimer's, and also for 认知 大脑 健康 in general.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： I did an episode on oral 健康, and the effects on, as you said, on 大脑 健康 are amazing.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Because Streptococcus mutans, which is the bacteria that causes cavities, can funnel its 方式 into the bloodstream and-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… potentially cross the blood-大脑 barrier, which is, 我认为, why 人们 think it might be detrimental to 大脑 健康.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 I don't know the detailed mechanisms, but 我认为 that 使s sense. 而且 there's this vague notion of 认知 reserve, which is basically some 人们 seem to be quite immune to the effects of 认知 aging, and some 人们 seem to be 非常 protected against Alzheimer's. 所以 what is it? One of the things that seems to come up as far as depleting 认知 reserve or putting it at a higher risk seems to be inflammation. Neuroinflammation.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 so Kim McAllister, as you know, is doing work on this topic of neuroimmune interactions, and basically, the immune system expresses itself in the 大脑. You get microglia activation that can cause these inflammatory responses, and there's reasonable 证据 suggests that it's interacting with tau and amyloid and this kind of cascade of stuff that 发生s in Alzheimer's 疾病. 而且 one of the things that we're 学习ing now, and we don't know nearly enough, but the data out there is quite scary, in fact, is long COVID is associated with significant 认知 effects.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 而且 is that the explanation for the 大脑 fog that 人们 report many, many months in?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 所以 they report a subjective 大脑 fog, and 你可以 measure this as a significant 认知 deficit that they're experiencing. 而且 we've seen in the 过去, like HIV, there was actually a whole variety of dementia that was associated with HIV from the viral transmission. You can see with multiple sclerosis where you have autoimmune responses in the 大脑 affect mental function dramatically. We're seeing 更多 and 更多 证据 of this, and so this is, again, another one of those things. It's like 人们 go, "Oh, COVID, I don't care about it," blah, blah, blah. 这是 a 健康 thing that can 确实 affect 人们, and I don't think anybody-- It's not a political issue to get 大脑 fog. It just sucks. Nobody wants this. 所以 我认为 that there's a lot we're 学习ing about viruses and bacteria. One of the cool things I was talking about before we started recording is, I was at a conference, I met the coolest guy, and I'm blanking on his name, but I'll send it to you after. 但是 he did this great 研究, and he was 研究ing the effects of nutrition on 大脑 健康 and 记忆, especially cognition. 而且 so I said, "那么, what's the most 有意思 finding that you've gotten?" I love to ask 人们 this 因为 I'm 好奇, and it stimulates my 好奇心, and I 通常 get a good 答案. 所以 he told me he did this 研究 where he has these rats, and he gives them sugary water during the day, about the equivalent, he said, to a can of Coke a day. 所以 they're getting this sugar. When they reach adulthood, these teenage rats, they reach adulthood, and they have 记忆 problems, and they have hippocampal atrophy. 所以 you go, okay, well, the hippocampus is affected, 记忆's affected, sugar, blah, blah, blah. No problem. 所以 then what he does is he takes the gut bacteria from the sugar animals and puts it in an animal that doesn't get this diet 而且 he finds 相同 kind of pathology and 相同 kind of 记忆 deficit in these animals. 所以 there's something about that process of the gut-大脑 interaction that also seems to be playing a 部分 in 方式s that I don't 理解, and 我认为 they're still figuring it out. 但是 again, this 确实 shows this tight neuroimmune link. We're seeing this now with pollution. Air pollution is a big factor, so even if 人们 don't believe in global warming, there's nothing good about being in a place with a lot of smoke in the air.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 是的。

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： It definitely can, and this is one of the risk factors that is noted in the Lancet report for Alzheimer's 疾病. One of my colleagues, Pam Line, is doing 研究 on this at UC Davis, showing that you get-- She actually takes real pollution from the Caldecott Tunnel, which connects Oakland and-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Walnut Creek.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 是的。

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 finds that rats exposed to this pollution have hippocampal damage. 所以 there's so many-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Very 有意思

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： …… of these environmental factors that can trigger the inflammatory response. We talked about blood sugar. Blood sugar also seems to be related to these issues. 而且 diabetes is so bad in so many 方式s. It's associated with those white matter hyperintensities that we talked about, and so that's bad, and we've done some 研究 on that. 但是 it also affects, it can cause little-- If you get severe diabetic ketoacidosis, 你可以 actually have hippocampal damage from that directly, and it also dramatically increases Alzheimer's risk, and we have an epidemic of diabetes right now.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： This probably explains, at least to my mind, why these lifestyle factors like improved 睡眠, cardiovascular and resistance training exercise, but certainly cardiovascular exercise, eating a lot of leafy foods, et cetera. We know all of those things offset inflammation to some degree or another, 对吧？ One of the best 方式s to inflame your 大脑 and body is to not get enough 睡眠 and to eat a lot of highly processed foods, for instance.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： To date, are there any, even semi-satisfactory, prescription drugs or other compounds that can slow the progression of Alzheimer's dementia once it's started?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： There are now some drugs that are, 我认为 they're targeting amyloid, that are producing some modest effects in stalling the progression-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： …… of the 疾病. See, the problem with Alzheimer's, as you know, is once you lose neurons, you're not getting them back. 而且 it's like, yeah, there's neurogenesis and 你可以 run around-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 但是 it ain't much

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： …… but it's not much.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Yeah, it's not much.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： If you're depending on that, you're hosed.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 是的。

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 但是 getting back to the exercise thing, it's neuroprotective. 而且 so, let's say with a drug, 对吧？ E非常body wants a drug. If I told you I'd give you this drug, you're 60 years old, and it's going to have some terrible side effects, you're going to get diarrhea, nausea, all this stuff, but it'll reduce your risk of Alzheimer's by 40%, a lot of 人们 would be motivated to take it. Now I tell you, "好. 那么, here's a lifestyle intervention that's going to involve what Sara Mednick calls down states." We can actually get into that and 记忆 reactivation during down states, but involves 睡眠, diet, exercise, social stimulation, 对吧？ 而且 these things, by the 方式, also reinforce each other.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Having better 睡眠 使s it easier to exercise. Having exercise 使s it better to 睡眠. All of these improve mood, 对吧？ 所以 these will improve your mental function, your mood, as well as your mental function relatively soon, and reduce your risk by at least 40%, if not 更多.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Wow.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： I can send you this Lancet article, but it's like the amount, the proportion of variance, meaning the degree of risk that 你可以 reduce with fully preventable or fully in our control lifestyle issues, is huge. It's as big or bigger than the genetics. 所以-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 我认为 人们 确实 need to hear and internalize that 因为 我认为 e非常one's waiting for this miracle drug that is unlikely to ever arrive, frankly. To date, we have some okay treatments for Parkinson's-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… to try and offset the loss of 多巴胺rgic neurons, but they can even transplant essentially 多巴胺rgic neurons into the substantia nigra. 但是 none of those things, L-DOPA, et cetera, have proved to be cures for Parkinson's. Not getting hit in the head is helpful.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Oh, yeah. Traumatic 大脑 injury-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Yeah

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： …… is another one of the big risk factors.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 所以 there are a lot of don'ts. I'm grateful that today you're sharing a number of dos-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… both in the context of offsetting 与年龄相关的 认知 decline, Alzheimer's, but also in terms of how to enhance 专注 and enhance 记忆. I want to 使 sure that we touch on a few topics related to 记忆 that are a little bit off the trajectory we're on now, but that come up a lot when 人们 start thinking about 记忆.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 而且 one that's kind of intriguing, 非常 intriguing, is déjà vu.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Mm.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Do we have any 理解ing about what déjà vu is? Is it just like a recollection of something similar that spontaneously gets triggered? What is déjà vu?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 那么, it's not fully understood, but I'll give you my best guess that's science-based and not just my wildly speculating completely. 但是 basically, one of the early findings that gave you a sense about what déjà vu is, is Hughlings Jackson, who's this great neurologist who did pioneering work in behavioral neurology, observed that many 患者 who get epilepsy would have this aura. It's this mental sensations right before a seizure, where they would get an intense feeling of déjà vu. It doesn't 发生 in e非常one, but a certain number 而且 this is associated with temporal lobe epilepsy. 而且 the hippocampus, as you know, is in the temporal lobe, but there's also these areas around it that are super 重要 for 记忆, including the amygdala, but also 确实 the perirhinal cortex is a key player in this. 所以 then you have Wilder Penfield and other 人们 who started to do these surgeries for epilepsy, and they said, "那么, I want to 使 sure I'm not taking out good 大脑." 所以 Penfield wasn't responsible for H.M., and that was kind of an irresponsible surgery.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： H.M. is a now dead, famous patient and literally chapter in the history of 神经科学. 所以mebody who had his hippocampi bilaterally, one on each side of the 大脑, removed to treat epilepsy. It fixed the epilepsy, but he had lost all capacity to 记住 prior events.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 In fact, he had this dense amnesia. 而且 actually, one of the little-known things, even in 记忆 研究, is he had what's called a temporal lobectomy, where they just hack off the front 部分 of the temporal lobe, or it might've been cauterized. 我认为 he cauterized it. 但是 any方式, they do that temporal lobectomy, and he actually had the posterior one-third of his hippocampus, but he had lost his perirhinal cortex bilaterally. 而且 that turned out to be Betsy Murray at NIH later, and other 人们, turned out to be a huge thing. 所以 one of the reasons 我认为 that he became so densely amnestic is that it was bilateral. 所以 if you think about the 大脑, you have a side of the 大脑 that's causing a seizure, so you kind of got a spare tire on the other side where it's like that other 健康y tissue on the other side can 有时 pick up the slack. 但是 if you take out both hemispheres, now you're in 确实 bad shape. 所以 Scoville did that. He actually did it for 人们 who are-- H.M. had epilepsy, and it was a legit operation in that sense, but he did it for 人们 who had, 我认为, psychosis, too, depression.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Back then, they just did all kinds of crazy stuff. 但是 Penfield was like, "No, I want to 使 sure I take out only the tissue that needs to go." 所以 what do you do? You stimulate 不同 部分s of the 大脑, and you see does it produce anything other than a seizure. 而且 if so, that's not an area you want to remove. 而且 so he would go into the anterior temporal lobes and stimulate, and 人们 would have, 有时 they would have an intense, real 记忆. 但是 有时 they would have this intense sense of déjà vu, where it's like they feel this, I feel like I've lived out this whole thing that's 发生ing right now, I've lived it before. When you know that's not true, 对吧？ 所以 what is this? 那么, a number of 人们, my lab was heavily involved with this, and 而且y Yonelinas at UC Davis was 确实 central to a lot of this stuff, found that the perirhinal cortex, which is this area, as I said, it's a big player with the hippocampus, seems to be 非常 critical for this general sense of familiarity that we have. 而且 so, I use in the book an example of if I say, have you eaten a rambutan before? Now, you being a 世界ly guy might have. Have you ever eaten a rambutan?

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： No, I don't know what that is.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 好. 所以 how quick was it that you were able to say no? That you were able to think about it and go, I've never eaten a rambutan.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Less than a 其次.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 好. 所以 you didn't have to search your entire 记忆 for whether or not you've eaten a rambutan. You know 因为 it's so unfamiliar, 对吧？

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Correct.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 所以 things that are highly familiar, like maybe I'll ask have you eaten a banana before or grapes before, 你可以 say yes, and 部分ly, you don't even have to 记住 any instance. It just feels right. Those are 非常 familiar things to you. Have you ever seen a grape before? Yes, of course you have, 对吧？ Apple, 非常 familiar to 人们. 所以 we just have that general fluency, and 你可以 look at this like you go into the grocery store and you see someone, and you're like, I know I've seen this 人 before. Where have I seen them before? 而且 then you leave, and eventually you're like, "Oh, well, that was somebody who I met at this conference," or something like that. 但是 you weren't expecting them at this context, and no episodic 记忆 is triggered. 但是 there was something about their features that felt 非常 fluent and natural to you and triggered that sense of familiarity. 而且 that seems to be processed, and 你可以 see 大脑 activity associated with that in the perirhinal cortex. 而且 人们 with damage to the perirhinal cortex seem to not 不同iate between the rambutan and the banana. It's all kind of unfamiliar to them. They might 记住, I've eaten a banana, but they don't necessarily have that sense of familiarity. 而且 Rebecca Burwell at Brown University did the coolest 实验 that doesn't nearly get-- You know how in science you get these unsung hero 实验? 那么, this was one of them where she stimulated, in rats, the perirhinal cortex at this frequency called the beta frequency, which is kind of a relatively low-frequency oscillation, and basically put two objects in front of the animal. 而且 so typically, if there's a new object, the animal will spend 更多 time exploring it, 对吧？ 而且 depending on how she timed the stimulation, she could 使 the animal think that a familiar object was novel. She stimulates at a 不同 frequency, 我认为 it was gamma, and the animal now thinks of, or actually, it was like, yeah, so now the animal thinks that a familiar thing is novel. With beta, it was that it thought a novel thing was familiar.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Wow.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 所以 could literally use this stimulation To change the 方式 the animal is interacting with, in presumably a 记忆-driven 方式, with this object, 对吧？

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 所以 for those looking for novelty in 不同 domains of life, maybe this is the solution.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Maybe, yeah. 而且 so Anne Cleary, just to close the loop here, who's a great 研究er at Colorado State, developed this beautiful paradigm where what she does is she said, "好, well, does that relate to déjà vu? 那么, let's see." 所以 what she did was use virtual reality. 而且 so in virtual reality, 你可以 create these environments and put objects in 部分icular places. 而且 so she creates these virtual environments where there are 部分icular objects in 部分icular places, and let's say one's a museum, 对吧？ 所以 a 人 can go through passively and watch a movie, or they actively navigate through these spaces. 而且 then what she does is she has them go through, let's say, a video arcade. 但是 unbeknownst to the subject, the objects that are in the room are in exactly 相同 positions as the objects in the museum. 但是 it's a video arcade, so it looks 不同. 但是 the room shape, the spatial layout, e非常thing is identical. It's got a 不同 skin on it, so to speak, for video gamers. 所以 what 发生s is 人们 are much 更多 likely, 非常 likely to produce a déjà vu sensation when they're in these places, these virtual environments, that look 非常 much like where they've been, but they're mismatching in some critical 方式. 所以 it's like you've got enough to trigger the strong sense of familiarity, but the mismatch is suppressing recollection. 而且 so that seems to be a crucial 部分 of why you get this uncanny feeling of 记住ing, is the strong familiarity you get. 而且 by the 方式, I've watched these movies, and I cannot for the life of me see that the museum is 相同 as the arcade. It just feels so 不同 认知ly. 但是 I can imagine being like if I 确实 did it immersively, having that sense of familiarity. 所以 you're 确实 pitting these things in opposition to each other. 而且 so what likely 发生s with déjà vu is something uncanny that triggers a little bit of 记忆 retrieval or a strong fluency, but then there's a mismatch that suppresses it and prevents a context from coming up.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： I'd like to talk about the relationship between 记忆 and mental 健康 for the following reason. I'm 非常 struck by the fact that in 实验s, such as the work that Karl Deisseroth, who was actually the 首先 guest on this 播客, brilliant neuroengineer, of course, and psychiatrist, described in which he's talking to a patient who's depressed. This patient has a stimulator for the vagus nerve. They can crank up stimulation of the vagus nerve. 而且 essentially, the narrative goes from this patient, 我相信 it was a woman in this case, talking about being suicidally depressed. She can't anticipate doing anything of any interest or excitement to her. Increasing vagal stimulation, which by the 方式, folks, does not just calm 人们 down. Vagal stimulation actually creates a lot of alertness. 所以 this is a vast misconception out there that vagal stimulation is all about calming. In any case, as the vagal stimulation goes up, her narrative literally changes in real time to, "Yeah, I could see myself going out and applying for a job. I'm kind of excited about the 未来," et cetera. 所以 complete transformation of one's outlook.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 但是 also, in some instances, 记忆 of prior events.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 所以 how we cast prior events-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： That's 确实 有意思

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… is so 有意思. 而且 the bridge I'd like to build right now conceptually is that there are two papers that intrigued me. One is a paper from Lamberto Maffei's lab in Pisa, which had a paradigm for exploring 学习ed help更少ness in rodents, which is a sort of a model for depression, how long a rodent is willing to swim in water to save its life, 对吧？

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Before it gives up. 而且 there's a 学习ed help更少ness that eventually arrives. These, yes, are not kind 实验s. 但是 at some point, they give up, and then they've essentially 学习ed they're help更少.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 而且 of course, they save the animal before it dies. 但是 these animals, given essentially an SSRI-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… like Prozac, can restore some sense of hope, meaning they'll swim longer after having 学习ed to be help更少.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 好. Is it reco非常 of depression? We don't know. 但是 in humans, you see some of 相同 thing when SSRIs have been effective, and they're not al方式s effective.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： You also see this in some of the psilocybin trials-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Mm

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… where 人们 have done the psilocybin therapies.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Oh yeah, we got to talk about that.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 是的。 In the correct context, and now all of a sudden, 人们 have this completely 不同 emotional version of 相同 events. Like, yep, a bunch of terrible things 发生ed, or with the MDMA trials for PTSD, controversial right now, FDA didn't approve it, but a good number of 患者 describe saying, "Yeah, this 确实 terrible set of things that 发生ed, those 发生ed."

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： "但是 I accept it, and I'm taking the 更少ons, and I'm moving on," and then there's maybe even forgiveness, et cetera. 所以 to me, this is a shift in 记忆 brought about by a dramatic shift in neuromodulators. SSRIs, of course, increase serotonin.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Psilocybin increases serotonin, and it's 有意思 to me that MDMA, while it increases 多巴胺, most dramatically increases serotonin.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Let's say 7X or 更多 in terms of the-- Now, I'm not suggesting anyone do these drugs at all.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yeah, 你可以 blow out the serotonergic system with too much of it.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： With too much of?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Too much MDA, MA.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Although the 研究 on this is 有意思 因为 the 研究 that claimed that MDMA did that actually was retracted from science.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Oh, is that 对吧？ 好.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： It turns out they had inadvertently used methamphetamine.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Oh, jeez.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Keep in mind, folks, that MDMA is methylenedioxymethamphetamine, so I'm not suggesting anyone do these drugs. I'm using this as a conceptual template.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 这是 abuse we're talking about, too.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 是的。 Right.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： It's not like-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Right. 所以 in clinical trials, it's clearly been shown, both for SSRIs as well as for psilocybin, these are still emerging clinical trials, and MDMA That in a significant percentage of individuals, especially when combined with therapy, 人们 can now feel 不同ly about 相同 记忆.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 所以 feeling 不同 about 相同 记忆 and feeling 不同 about, 因此, the sense of possibility going forward.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： This to me is incredible.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 而且 it speaks to the fact that much of depression, the lack of a positive anticipation about the 未来, et cetera, is based on memories about failures of 过去-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yeah

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… or harms of 过去.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 Rumination, basically.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Right. 所以 what is the relationship between the serotonin system and 记忆? Or what is the relationship, 更多 broadly, of these neuromodulatory systems or the vagal system that can create these incredible reversals of what we previously thought of as terrible, as manageable-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… and 因此, we're willing to lean into life again? What is that?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Again, serotonin's like a neuromodulator. It enhances plasticity. 而且 what I mean by that is that if you have a transient 学习ing event, you will get a change in the connections between neurons that were active during that event. 而且 super 有意思 work right now going on in behavioral timescale plasticity and all this stuff. 所以 it's not just cells that wire together, fire together. It's 更多 有意思, actually.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Or fire together, wire together.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： It's 更多 有意思. 但是 those changes can often be transient, and what 人们-- 所以, like Eric Kandel, for instance, is one who studied serotonin in 部分icular and emphasized this, but basically many neuromodulators, if you give a little bath, bathe these neurons in serotonin or other neuromodulators, you stabilize that plasticity, and that allows increases in receptor density between these neurons that allow them to communicate 更多 effectively. Now 你可以 get weakening in LTD too. We won't get into that, but serotonin definitely promotes plasticity, 对吧？ 而且 so one of the things I talk about in my book is that memories are-- I mean, we all have plasticity. As I said, retrieving a 记忆 can allow us to change the 记忆 in certain 方式s, and when you get into the details of it, it becomes complicated in 有意思 方式s. 但是 the short version is 你可以 change it. We get a small 部分 of what 发生ed when we 记住.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 但是 there's that feeling of the context. There's that emotional response that we have that's both a kind of a basic raw motivational, my heart's racing or something like that. That's why 人们 often say, well, emotional memories are stored in 身体. 那么, it's just 部分 of the 记忆. It's a retrieval cue, so to speak, and it can also be 部分 of the retrieved 经历. 但是 you have all of these factors going on that are 部分 of this emotional 记忆, and then you have a story that you create, a narrative that you use to 使 sense of it, and that affects all these physiological systems too, 对吧？ 所以 e非常 time I talk in the book about an example of how group therapy is so powerful as a means of 记忆 updating and social interactions, where it's like 人们 can change the narrative. They say, "那么, I gave you this narrative about how I'm loud," and you told me, "那么, I 记住 hanging out with you, and you weren't loud then, you're not loud now." 而且 so now I can update these memories maybe.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Vivacious.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的，正是如此。 I could reframe it, 对吧？

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 these framing effects are huge. 所以 in theory, 人们 can take an 经历 that was traumatic, and many 人们 do, and say, "This made me who I am, and I'm happy with who I am now, even though this was a horrible thing, I'm stronger for it," or, "I'm a survivor," or, "I couldn't have done anything about it and it's not my fault." Or 你可以 have these narratives of shame and so forth, and guilt, and anger, and so forth. I'm not judging anybody's reaction to trauma, but what I am saying is that's 部分 of the emotional response, it's 部分 of the 记忆 that 人们 construct. The problem is that with traumatic memories, when they do stick, it's hard to change 因为 there's so much plasticity driven by the neuromodulators during that event. With PTSD, I mean, we could talk about that, that's a whole another thing, but let's just take traumatic memories. It's so intense, and the amygdala response drives the physiology in many cases of that arousal, which 使s you feel like this immediacy of it, 对吧？ 而且 it affects 睡眠 and nightmares, all that stuff. 但是 any方式, stay out of PTSD for a while 因为 that's a whole another thing. 但是 those memories are 非常 resistant 因为 of that intensity, and often the 更多 we retrieve them, we re-traumatize ourself. 所以 reframing in a 认知 therapy sense is 非常 difficult 因为 they feel this, and their 大脑 is telling them, "I'm under threat," or, "I'm ashamed," 因为 they've reinforced this narrative so many times. 而且 你可以 work through the logic, but 有时 you need to create some big prediction error to generate some error-driven 学习ing, which is something we could talk about, or you need some kind of help. 所以 if you're driving neuromodulatory systems like that theoretically could give you a broader window of plasticity. In fact, actually, we're trying Prozac on my dog, and one of the things that has seemed-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Why? Is it dogs?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： She's 非常 anxious.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Uh-huh.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 it's to the point where she'll not exercise, even though she's a 非常 active dog.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： She'll stop on a walk if she hears a garbage truck anywhere.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 so it's a 非常 low dose, and I'm not necessarily saying go drug your dogs, but I'm just saying that the story that I've heard is that you get this period of plasticity where 你可以 kind of-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： …… rewrite some of these behavioral patterns and 使 them 更多 open to training and so forth. 而且 so it doesn't even have to be a permanent thing, 对吧？ 而且 我认为 a lot of these things, like you're talking about 学习ed help更少ness 研究, probably transient effects of not being on it for years or something.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 但是 it's not 非常 effective in terms of SSRIs. 但是 psilocybin and psychedelics have shown a lot of promise as being bigger effects. 而且 these produce massive plasticity. There's two things 我认为 that are 确实 有意思 about it. 所以 my neighbor, by the 方式, Davis, I will just say I'm biased, but it's one of the top three places in the 世界 for 学习ing and 记忆 研究 . 所以 my next-door neighbor, David Olson, it turns out, is 研究ing psychedelic effects on plasticity. 而且 so he 确实 emphasizes that there's just these massive neurotrophic factors, BDNF, all these factors that are going on that are promoting plasticity. 而且 for 人们 who've taken them, that's what they report, is that there's this period of integration afterwards where your 大脑's just like, 你可以 feel it. E非常thing's-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： You change.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： You change, yeah.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： You change. If the integration is guided properly. One thing that I do want to 使 sure I highlight, and it's not just for public safety reasons, 尽管 that as well, is that 人们 are so intrigued by the idea of quote-unquote, "opening plasticity." Plasticity is just an opportunity for 学习ing new contingencies.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Right? Just taking psychedelics is an 经历, certainly, but the 学习ing of new contingencies occurs in the integration phase as well as within the session. That's why the clinical trials that showed some efficacy for some 人们 were guided intensely by therapists.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 但是 the mere act of having plasticity, plasticity is an opportunity for 学习ing. It's not the actual 学习ing.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： That's right. It opens up significant opportunities for reshaping. 但是 the 其次 部分 of it, which maybe 我认为 is 确实 有意思, is there is also a dissociative element of these drugs. 所以 ketamine isn't a psychedelic, but 我认为 there are some 有意思 plasticity effects, and definitely it produces this dissociative element, too. 但是 with psychedelics, there's often a major perspective shift. 而且 perspective is hugely 重要 for 记忆, 因为 a lot of our sense of the emotional impact of our 记忆 is based on a perspective that we adopt when we 记住. 而且 研究 has shown that 你可以 take 相同 encoding event, meaning like I tell you a story, let's just take a 非常 simple thing. I give you a story, and it's like I tell you now viewed from the perspective of someone else, and you're trying to 记住 it. You can 记住 things that you didn't 记住 the 首先 time around. Changing your perspective can literally change what you 记住. It can also change the narrative that you produce. 所以 now let's say you pull up this traumatic 记忆, but you're viewing it from the outside, and you're feeling your heart's racing, your eyes are dilating. There's these crazy effects from psychedelic, but you're seeing it, and it's not you. There's some deeper self you're feeling, whether it's true or not.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Or you have a sense of agency in there.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 所以me of the psychedelics, I've never tried this one, but there are 有意思 研究 of ibogaine, iboga, where the universal 经历, as I 理解, is that it's 22 hours long. It's actually a cardiovascular risk. There's some things that need to be offset there, so don't run out and do this, folks. 但是 人们, I'm told, get a high-definition movie of specific events in their life that actually 发生ed, only when they close their eyes. 所以 no hallucinating with eyes open. Interesting.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 而且 then they have agency within those movies.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 而且 once they exact the change they wanted to have, it rotates like a cube. Very 有意思, perhaps, to a 记忆 研究er, why this would be. 而且 then they get another event of 过去 where they have agency in that event. Incredible.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： There's so much that we don't know. 而且 I will say that some of the psychedelic stuff is overhyped, and some of the science is quite bad in that field right now.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 是的。 A number of papers are being retracted now.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 是的。

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 I do think that some of the concerns they had in the FDA, I take issue with. 但是 what I will say is that you have a drug that dramatically increases plasticity, but it changes dramatically the mental context that you have when you pull up the 记忆.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 所以 you have a real opportunity for 记忆 updating. Now, there's a phenomenon in the animal literature called reconsolidation.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Where essentially the act of retrieving a 记忆 opens it up to requiring some kinds of neuromodulators, again, to 确实 promote resealing of the 记忆, so to speak. 但是 it can also, if you interrupt it, 你可以 erase the memories. 而且 theoretically, if 你可以 do that, you could also change the memories pretty significantly. 所以 if I can vividly access some neural population that's normally gives me this physiological response, it sets off this train of thoughts, and it's associated with this physical and mental context, and I can access those neurons, but dramatically reshape the context and dramatically reshape the narrative, I've created the opportunity for massive change. 而且 I don't know if that's true, but it sure 使s sense to me that that's the case. Now, having said that, if you and me share our traumatic elements of our childhood, I'm sure we could go out for drinks and do this for quite a few hours, 对吧？ That in and of itself will also produce some change in our memories. It's 非常 powerful. 而且 I saw this in the clinic where I was doing group therapy with Vietnam vets, and I'm like, "I'm a total fraud." I'm like, I don't know, 27 years old, 28 years old, and I'm in with these Vietnam vets in their 50s who've 确实 seen stuff, and they live in combat zones now in Chicago. 而且 what I realized was e非常one was telling their story 但是 they're hearing reflections of their story from me, but also from other members of the group who they can relate to that are 不同 from their narrative. 而且 now all of a sudden, what 发生s is the 记忆 is no longer theirs. It's a collective 记忆 that's shared by all these 人们.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Mm.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Because the 记忆 now incorporates elements of their reactions as well. It allows 人们 to 记住 it in a new context, 对吧？ 而且 我们可以 just take a much 更多 watered-down version of this where how many times have you had a terrible 经历 and it became a great story?

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： I basically say that there's no point in having a bad 经历 in life if you don't get a great story out of it, 对吧？ 所以 I talk in the book about a near-death 经历 I had paddleboarding, and e非常thing about this was stupid. I could send you pictures of it, and you'd be like, "Oh my God, what was he thinking?"

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Yeah, I've made foolish errors in outdoor adventures in my 过去-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… where afterwards I thought that was a 确实 dumb move to even go to that location to dive, let alone what we did when we-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Mm

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… did there. 所以me of the stupid stuff that we did, and as kids, like bridge jumps and without testing water depth, stupid stuff-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yeah

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… that I don't recommend anyone repeat. 但是 you're right. The surviving stories, you carry those forward.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的，正是如此。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： The problem is the other stories, 我们可以 talk about 人们 who are paralyzed, dead, et cetera. Those stories exist, too.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 To be clear, I felt horrible during that 经历, and it was one of the most immediately fear-inducing 经历s I've had.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 但是 later, me and Randy O'Reilly, the computational 神经科学, we're friends. We both did this stupid thing together. We would tell this story, tag-team it, and we told it to students and friends and so forth, and it just became funny. 而且 so each time we told it, it just became funnier and funnier, and you start to embellish things and so forth. 而且 so that change of perspective was 确实 drawn out by sharing and seeing 人们 laugh and seeing 人们 like, "What were you thinking? You're such a smart 人, and you did this." 而且 it becomes 部分 of the narrative. 而且 keep in mind, there are 人们 who do this, that they say, like, "I've had a 确实 traumatic 经历, but I've 学习ed from it. I've had a horrible, emotionally abusive relationship, but I've 学习ed from it." Right? 而且 I don't mean to trivialize anybody's 经历 who didn't have that thing, and they're just traumatized by it, and they carry it with them. 但是 what I am saying is that the 记忆, so to speak, 我认为 in 神经科学 right now, there's a big hot topic about engrams, as if a bunch of neurons is the 记忆. 但是 e非常 time we have a 记忆, we're painting a new picture.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： We're creating a new novel.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 那么, and 我认为 this is where 人们 have to be 非常 careful not to cowboy post-traumatic 压力 disorder treatment in a 方式 that allows the narrative to 使 it worse. Because a previous guest on this 播客 has this notion, in describing this, of story fondling, where 人们 can go further and further into the description of how terrible something is, reinforced by others, and then the 记忆 changes to become much worse-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yeah

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… than either the real events were or just simply worse within their body and mind, and then they have to live that forward. 所以 it can go both 方式s, which 确实 points to the key, which is to do this with 确实 trained professionals.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 而且 it's all about-- Because 你可以 re-traumatize yourself, and this is also why rumination is so bad in depression, is 因为 you recall a negative 记忆, and that gets you in a negative mood 因为 you pull up the context, and then that 使s it easier to recall 更多 negative memories. 而且 then e非常 time you recall them, now they're getting 更多 power 因为 they're associated with these negative moods.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 所以 recollection is 确实 a double-edged blade.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Oh, yeah. 所以 if you take something like reminiscence or nostalgia. 所以 the original term nostalgia, I credit Felipe de Brigard, he's a philosopher and neuroscientist. He told me that nostalgia used to be a term for a 疾病 that was coined by a Swiss physician.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 he used it to talk about a kind of post-traumatic 经历 that soldiers had where they would get so wistful about their home that it just made them miserable in the places that they were at.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： It's been referred to as the pain of an old wound.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的，正是如此。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： I didn't say that, someone else.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 The 研究 shows it can have 非常 positive effects on mental 健康, 对吧？

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 it can have positive effects on mental 健康 if you use that as a 方式 of saying, "Hey, this is just a great thing that's 发生ed. I'm grateful for that." 但是 it can become toxic if you're like, "My life used to be so great, and now it's terrible." Even if it's positive reminiscence, if you come into it with the wrong attributions-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： …… it can become negative and toxic, and it can contaminate your 现在, 对吧？ The 过去 has got good, and it's got bad in it, just like the 现在 has got good, and it's got bad in it. 而且 it's 确实 all about what are the narratives you're constructing for it in many 方式s, and that plays a big 部分 in the dynamic, malleable, constantly shape-shifting nature of 记忆.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Incredible. I want to 使 sure that we talk about something, at 首先 glance, 非常 不同 than all of this, but it lands squarely in the conversation we've had until now, which is your love for and your 部分icipation in rock 'n' roll. You have a band Right. Pavlov's Dogs.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yep. I actually have a couple bands now, thankfully, so.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 好.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： What are the other ones called?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 那么, so Pavlov's Dogs, I'll say 首先, is a band of neuroscientists and psychologists, well, neuroscientists who met, actually, most of us met at a 记忆 meeting, actually.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 so, we get together at conferences, and we'll rent out a club, and we'll play basically, Brad calls it skinny tie music. It's like-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Is it original music or covers?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Covers. That one's a cover band.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Covers. 好.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 so, we'll play the Ramones, The Clash, Gang of Four.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Great.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： It's a lot of we're-- We added Blondie and-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： She's still touring.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 She's amazing, isn't she?

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Yeah, a friend of mine went on tour with her. Yeah, there's a band called-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： She looks great, too

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… Surfboard. Surfboard was on tour with Blondie.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Oh, sorry, I know them.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 是的。

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Oh, that's a friend of yours, yeah.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Yeah, Danny from Surfboard know. Yeah, great band, and she toured with Blondie.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Oh.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Blondie's amazing. She's still super vivacious.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： As is Surfboard, and Danny. What instrument do you play?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： I play guitar, and I also do vocals.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Lead vocals?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Yes.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Or yeah.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯. 而且-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Reluctant, 因为 有时 it's talking or being off-key, but yeah.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Can 人们 find links to any Pavlov's Dog live shows or recordings online?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 我认为 we have some recordings on YouTube, and if you look on our Facebook page, maybe our Instagram, too, we have live recordings.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 好.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 而且 you have a show coming up. We'll put a link to that. Because 人们 will listen to this long after that, presumably, but that's coming up in Chicago on October……

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 我认为 it's the 7th.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 5th?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Is it a Mon-- It's the Monday.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Yeah, we'll put a link to that.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 是的。 所以rry, I-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 但是-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： It's at a show-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 但是 for those that can't 使 it, 因为 most of us aren't in Chicago, including me, unfortunately, we'll keep an eye out for Pavlov's Dogs. I love that you play music, and I just have, for sake of time, one 问题 about your love for rock and roll and playing music. When you're playing rock and roll live, are you thinking about anything else?

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 所以metimes, and that's when I suck. Actually, one hack that I came up with, 因为 it's like with the cover band, we practice, we cram. It's the worst thing. It's not spaced 学习ing. It's like we go through the songs, and we keep adding and taking a方式 songs, but it's like we'll cram for, I don't know, about eight hours of practices over three days or something. 而且 so, for me, it's like a constant 记忆 thing 因为 my 大脑 doesn't want to play covers. It wants to play the songs that I've written.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 而且 so there's al方式s a 记忆 thing. 而且 then I get nervous. I get 确实 nervous, and so I move a lot, and then that distracts, and then I'll see friends, and that kills me, 因为 then I start thinking, "What are they thinking?" 而且 so I started, last show I did with Pavlov's Dogs, I wore sunglasses, and it was great.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Oh.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Because then I wasn't attuned to them, and it just goes back to what we were talking about with the camera and stuff. I was feeling it, and I was thinking. I was in the flow, in the zone, and feeling it and doing it and not thinking about it. 而且 there's a whole 有意思 literature, choking under pressure, that actually relates to this idea of 有时 having too much 认知 control going on is 确实 bad-

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 嗯

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： …… when you're under 压力, and if you know something fairly well, you're going to be better off if you just go into an automatic state.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： I love that. When I do live shows, I like to have the house lights relatively dim.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： I don't want to see anybody at 首先.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： 嗯.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： 而且 then as I get 更多 comfortable, I'm happy to have the house lights come up, 因为 you get-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Oh, what do you play? I didn't know you played.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Oh, I don't play anything.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Oh.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： I do live events where I talk about science-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Oh, yeah

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… where I tell stories about-

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Oh, that's kind of performing

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： …… science and scientists. 好, a couple of things are right in the front of my mind, and I'd be remiss if I didn't say them right now. First of all, it's absolutely clear that we need to get you back here for 更多 discussion about 记忆 and 学习ing. There's just so much that we didn't have the opportunity to cover in this conversation, but we most certainly will in a 未来 conversation.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： We didn't bring up the turkeys of Davis.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： No, we didn't. Second of all, I want to thank you for writing your book, "Why We Remember," 因为 it's a fantastic exploration of the modern 理解ing of 记忆. Still some of the mysteries that remain, but this is a field that's evolved a lot, and you capture so much of the incredible findings there over the years in a 非常 pleasurable 方式. 所以, it's a pleasure to read. 而且 then I also want to thank you for coming here today to share with us your 理解ing about 记忆 and also your sharing of your 经历 with ADHD and some of the tools you use, some of the struggles. 我认为 all too often, 人们 hear about these scientists or physicians or 人们 who are authorities on a topic, and they don't hear about the challenges they face. 而且 I assure you that a great, great many 人们 will appreciate the fact that you yourself have struggled with certain issues related to 注意力, but that you've overcome them at least as well to be able to be a functional parent and family man, professor, author, now public educator, dog owner- …… 其次 time around, and for that and for a great many other reasons, you've educated us, and you've given us a great many practical tools. It's also great to see you as a fellow punk rocker and old friend, and I even let you call me 而且y, so thank you. 所以, thanks for coming here today, and please do come back again, Charan.

中文释义：Charan Ranganath 博士： Oh, I would love to. Thank you, 而且rew. It's just been great to be here.

中文释义：而且rew Huberman： Thank you for joining me for today's discussion about 记忆 and ADHD with Dr. Charan Ranganath. To 学习 更多 about his work and to find a link to his book, as well as social media accounts, please see the links in the show note captions. If you're 学习ing from and/or enjoying this 播客, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero-cost 方式 to support us. In addition, please subscribe to the 播客 on both Spotify and Apple. 而且 on both Spotify and Apple, 你可以 leave us up to a five-star review. Please check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best 方式 to support this 播客. If you have 问题s for me or comments about the 播客 or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab 播客, please put those in the comment section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my 非常 首先 book. It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." 这是 a book that I've been working on for 更多 than five years, and that's based on 更多 than 30 years of 研究 and 经历, and it covers protocols for e非常thing from 睡眠 to exercise to 压力 control, protocols related to 专注 and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com. There 你可以 find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." If you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. 所以 that's Instagram, X, formerly known as Twitter, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn. 而且 on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab 播客, but much of which is distinct from the content on the Huberman Lab 播客. Again, that's Huberman Lab on all social media channels. If you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, our Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes 播客 summaries as well as protocols in the form of brief one to three-page PDFs. Those protocol PDFs are on things like 神经可塑性 and 学习ing, optimizing 多巴胺, improving your 睡眠, deliberate cold exposure, deliberate heat exposure. We have a foundational fitness protocol that describes a template routine that includes cardiovascular training and resistance training with sets and reps, all backed by science, and all of which, again, is completely zero cost. To subscribe, simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab up in the upper right corner, scroll down to newsletter, and provide your email, and I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Charan Ranganath. 而且 last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.