Bear Grylls: Man VS Failure, Anxiety & Imposter Syndrome
Guests: Bear
Full transcript · Read the full conversation in order, with its original context.
§01Transcript — part 1
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Just because you're determined doesn't mean everything's going to go well.
Those four people that passed away, were they climbing with you?
I'm Bear Grylls, and I've learned how to survive in some of the most hostile terrains on the planet.
You really fascinate me for a number of reasons that I actually never knew before I started digging into your story. You certainly had a lot of demons.
In the early days of TV especially, there was so much pressure to go and do that and do the extra episode. You end up burning the things that are most valuable. To be successful, you have to sacrifice, but maybe you reach a point where enough is enough.
Selection for the Special Forces is all about heart and spirit, and we can all have that. That's not a God-given talent. That's a muscle that builds with walking through the door of failure time and time again and keep getting back up.
When was your darkest moment?
One was when I broke my back. I was in rehabilitation for a long time. You know, so much of my rock in my life had been that I was physically strong and I was doing a job I loved. Suddenly, I couldn't even reach the bathroom without excruciating agony. It was just a "what am I going to do with my life?" moment.
When is there a time to give up?
So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.
Bear, I want to start where I usually start, which is near the start. And one of the things you said was you certainly had a lot of demons. The exact quote is, "I was never short of demons." When I read that, I thought, what do you mean?
Growing up, I really struggled with confidence. Especially when I was at school. I think so much of the school culture, still to this day, definitely tends to celebrate the guy who's academic, or sporty, or good-looking, or just a cool guy. Those are the currency of school.
But as you and I know, it's not always the currency of life. You try and tell a kid who maybe isn't sporty or academic, but who's just kind and does his best, that actually those things have much more value in life. It's kind of hard to believe. But certainly for me, I didn't have that; I wasn't the sportiest, the most academic, or the cool guy.
And I think it took me a while to find an identity and actually realize that this is what I love. It's nothing brilliant, but I love it. For me growing up, it was always climbing with my dad. He'd been a Commando and loved all of that sort of stuff. For me growing up, it was always, you know, that's what I loved to do—just have mini-adventures with him.
I think it took a while to learn that that's okay. My dad would always say, "You've got to find something you really love and try and be kind to people along the way and be resilient. Have that dogged, never-give-up attitude." Those are the key things for life. But it's hard to believe that as a kid, and sometimes if you get a bit lost in the system...
So I suppose what I meant is that it took me a while to find the confidence. And it's still a journey, I think, we're all on. I think success doesn't always answer those sort of questions. I think confidence has to come from in here, and it's often the opposite of what we think it is when we're growing up. Confidence is quiet. And I think that's kind of what I meant.
When you say confidence, how do you define confidence? Because some people think of confidence as this overt external expression of self-assurance. What did you mean when you said, "I didn't have confidence and it's still an ongoing battle"? What is that?
I think it's not what the world always thinks, like you say. We always have this thing of confidence being, "I'm unstoppable, I can do anything." I think life is always humbling in every way, just like the wild. The mountains are humbling. The real things of life are humbling because they remind us that it's often a battle.
You've got to sometimes put your head down and do your best, and you're going to fail, and you're going to struggle, and you're going to have doubts, and you're going to have self-doubt. But try, try and get back up and keep going. And I think that is confidence. Confidence is the quiet stuff and the honesty to say, "This is a struggle, but let's go."
I love that thing of the Scouts: "Do your best." Which is so smart, because I think so much of the world is about being the best—win, number one. But actually, that doesn't always stand the pressure test of time, of life, and of going for big things that are always going to be humbling.
And I think the thing of "Do your best," you know, it's DIY—"Do It Yourself," do your best. I love that because wherever you're at, you can do that. It's a decision; it's not a gift. It's not something we're born with, like looks or academics or sports. It's something you've got to summon. And I like that.
What were the symptoms of having a lack of confidence when you were that age? What would it look like? How did it manifest itself?
I think probably just being quite shy. You see the people at school, the bigger personalities, and it was always like, "Gosh, you've got to be like that to get anywhere." And it's a life journey, isn't it, to realize it's almost the opposite. It's almost the opposite.
The quiet, persevering, relentless energy of trying to pick yourself up through the failures and keep going. Knowing that the wealth of life is always found in our relationships. You come across people who are rich in friendships, rich in passion, and love what they do and love the people they work with. And that's enough, that's wonderful.
But it takes a bit of unlearning, doesn't it? To say you don't have to be the people everyone looks up to, who aren't always front and center. As I get older, I see more and more heroes left and right, rather than center. I love that. I sort of see it in people.
I see it in our camera crew. I mean, look at what's been a core part of my job for however many years now—the filming and stuff. The focus is always on the person front of screen, and that horrible word of "talent" as they call it. I never felt very talented. I still don't. I still feel I'm surrounded by way more talented people.
But life isn't a competition about who's more talented. It's a journey to take with great friends. I look at our camera crew, and to me, they are true heroes. They work harder, they carry heavier weights, they are unsung, relentlessly positive, and they carry me many times in so many ways. They encourage me when I've been struggling.
I look at them, and we're still brothers and sisters, best friends to this day. I think it's probably the thing I'm most proud of in my career, actually—the friendships with our crew. In an industry that is notoriously transient, people have crew come, crew go, new crews. But we've kept pretty well the core crew from the beginning.
Part of it is that we're obviously working in difficult, dangerous terrain, and you forge stronger bonds than you would in a shiny studio. But part of it is that the loyalty really matters from both—it goes both ways. And I love that.
You said that you kind of have a bit of an allergic reaction to the word "talent." Just from a few other things that you said in that little opener, I wondered if you relate at all to the phrase "imposter syndrome." Because you're someone who the world has this image of as being this unbelievable, mountain-scaling, fearless adventurer.
Even you talking about a lack of confidence doesn't seem to fit into that narrative that the world must hold of you. So have you ever felt what they call imposter syndrome, or do you ever feel a pressure to be that person?
Yeah, I think so. I think it's ongoing. I think it probably grows, actually. The more something does well... We did this show this year for Netflix called *You vs. Wild*, and we just got the news this morning that we got nominated for three Emmys for it.
And the crew goes, "Babe, that's so cool!" Everyone is so excited, but part of my heart dies. Part of me is like, "Oh..." It's like that gulf between the TV guy and the real me gets bigger. And I feel from day one, I felt... I almost had more confidence, I think, in my skills at the beginning.
I think as the years have gone on, I've realized actually, I'm often surrounded by people who are better climbers, better skydivers, better survival guys, better looking, fitter, stronger—all of these things. Just because we've built a crew of ninjas, true heroes.
We've got to work with people and locals and experts all around the world year after year. And I think more and more I feel, "These guys are... that person we met there, or that person we met there, they are amazing. They'd be much better at the job than me."
But like I say, our job isn't to be the best; it's to do our best. For some reason, I've been given this chance to do this. It's what I've always loved. I love the adventures, I love, like I say, the friendships and the job we do. I think you can only ride that and be grateful for it and do your best.
And not worry about too much about how the TV makes it always look. I mean, the truth is, the TV always puts the best bits. They cut out the trips and the stumbles, and you put anything to music, and the guy's going to look cool.
But I think an element of why the show worked when we first started doing it is that we did show a lot of the mistakes, and it was kind of... the slips and the stumbles, and the ums and the ahs.
I remember from day one, the producer that came to me and said, "We want to do this show where we drop you in the middle of difficult places and you show us how to get out of there." And I kept saying no because I didn't want to do TV. I didn't know about TV. And I was like, "Oh..."
But he kept saying, "We don't want that. It doesn't need to be perfect." It was my wife who said, "Why don't you go and try it?" I had just left the military, we'd just got married, we were kind of starting out. And she was smart. She said, "Go and try it."
And actually, it's never felt like making a perfect thing. I think the magic at that time was it was the first show that came along that let all the mud be on the lens and the rain on the lens, and the trips and the stumbles, and you saw the cameraman's hand. There was a sort of interactivity that was great.
And I've always felt if it's not broke, don't fix it. The stumbles, the trips, the struggles, the mistakes are part of life. But the part of my heart that dies is because it goes and makes it look too good, or too... because at the end of the day, I'm a really regular guy.
I'm a regular dad as well. I'm not brilliant at any of these things, but I know what I love, and I know the weapons that serve me best. And the weapons are always this: be dogged, be determined, be the most resilient person out there when it's hard. Come alive in the big moments. When it's not the big moments, you don't need to be front and center, but in the big moments, be there.
I watched a lot of interviews of you before you arrived here today, and I think in pretty much all of them, you said, "I'm a normal guy, I'm a regular guy." And I get that. I understand what you're saying. However...
Well, it's not false modesty. I don't want to... I'm not going to let people build me into something I'm not. I think as I get older, I know the frailties more and more, and I'm not ashamed of them. You know what I mean? It's okay. Many mistakes, many struggles. It's okay. Otherwise, things become all too... it's hard to relate to.
But you got through SAS selection.
Just. I got through all of these just. And people turn to me and say things as they turn back and quit. That, for me, is a filtering process of something.
But it's resilience. All it is, is something we can control. It's not a filtering of talent. It's not a filtering of "you're brilliant, you're through, you're not through." It's the genius of selection for the Special Forces. It's all about heart and spirit, and we can all have that. That's not a God-given talent. That's a muscle that builds with walking through the door of failure time and time again and keep getting back up.
So I liked that. It's why I say I am an ordinary person, and it's why I also say "just" to so many things. Because yes, I passed that, or yes, you reach the top of this mountain, or yes, you do... but it's always just. And that's okay.
And it's also often by standing on the shoulders of many giants who have helped me. Many times, if I think of SAS selection at that time, there were so many times where somebody just believed in me at a critical time. It might have been something where the two corporals running something go, "Do we want that guy? Do we want..." A bit of luck falls on your side, somebody backs you.
The more I look back on so many so-called achievements, the more I see the hand of good people in critical moments. But as you know, you have to win the hearts of those people in the first place. But also the role of just that dogged determination to keep going. And that's not a thing of being brilliant; it's just trying to keep going. Often sliding another step back, but keep moving forward.
I say that to... I've got three boys now, three teenagers. And I think if you said to them what one thing does your dad say to you day after day before you go to school? It's always just, "Don't give up. Never give up. Be kind. Be determined, but never give up."
And they roll their eyes, but you know what? One day they'll know that's the key thing of life. You don't have to be the best, you do your best.
Did that resilience muscle, as you call it, grow over time?
Of course. It's like everything. It's like the little seeds to the mighty oaks. How do we build it? Just inch by inch. And that's a great thing, because it's not something only some people can have. It's universal for us all. We can all become... people think it's a God-given gift to some—resilience. Resilience is that muscle. You build it by failing and trying to stay positive and trying to get back on your feet and going again.
I look back, and I remember being really excited about being picked for the fourth-eleven football team as a linesman. I wasn't even in the team. And it was like my job was to bring on the oranges at halftime. But I remember my dad was the only dad on the side of the pitch cheering me on. I thought it was so embarrassing. He's like, "I'm not even in the team!"
But actually, those little steps of like, "I'm going to do this, and I'm going to bring on those oranges, and you're never going to forget, it's going to be great." It's incremental, tiny little things. But having to fight for things... How often do we see at school, though, the school hero actually in life doesn't always do that brilliantly?
And why is that? It's because they've got... school's rewarded that, but they've never tested this. Where little Johnny, who doesn't have that, doesn't get the awards, is a linesman, brings on the oranges, whatever it is, struggles, doesn't even get noticed, never wins anything... but never gives up and keeps doing his best. Still doesn't really get noticed, but it doesn't matter.
When he leaves school, this might not be the biggest thing, but this is like ninja-like. That resilience muscle inside is strong. And as you know and as I know, in life, that's the one that is going to carry you further. And the unseen people at school often do better in life. It's like: don't peak too early. Don't peak at 14.
I certainly didn't. I sat here with Chris Eubank and I've been thinking about this idea of resilience and what it really means. As we sit here today, my current hypothesis is basically resilience is the story—it's kind of this contract you have with yourself, this self-story about who you are.
And in those moments when no one is looking... I was talking to Eubank about me being on the running machine and knowing I've got two minutes to go because I said before I started I'd run until 45 minutes. But my legs are hurting and they're cramping, and I could give up and walk away and no one is going to know because no one is here.
But I alter my own self-story in a way, and I send a message to myself that I am the type of person that gives up when it's tough. So is it really like... do you relate to that? And this kind of like... you're crafting this story about who you are to yourself with every small decision you make? Doing the linesman job, you said, "I'm going to do it the best I possibly can," and although it's not what you wanted, you gave it everything you can and didn't give up. Does that relate at all?
And also, I think the thing of giving up is that, you know, what is it? It's that thing of temporary pleasure, long-term not... and for me, I just developed this thing where whenever people were quitting or complaining, I liked those moments.
For me, it was like, "Okay, all the chat and the bravado is always there at the beginning. Everyone's full of that. But bring it down, put the squeeze on." We're like grapes: squeeze us, you see what's inside. Bring the squeeze, bring the squeeze, now we see character, you see what people are like.
And for me, it just became whenever I saw people quitting or complaining—especially complaining, you see it so much in the military, you see it on big expeditions, you see it even when we're filming TV shows with people—when it gets hard and you're hungry and you're scared and you're up against it and you're dehydrated... Those are the moments.
For me, it just became a trigger: whenever everyone's complaining and giving up, it's the time to give more. You don't have to give more in the early times, just wait until it's... and that's how you separate yourselves in business and in life and in relationships. In the big moments.
Look at a relationship when you're under that real tension and everyone's throwing it. Are you going to really throw that nasty comment, or kind of hold it and just try and be gracious and kind in those big moments? And I liked that. It wasn't complicated to think about under pressure. It was just like, when everything's going wrong, that's the time to give more rather than give up.
And I held on to that in many difficult moments across many different arenas. And it's helped me. I remember this guy said to me once, he said, "And you can do anything for another 10 seconds." And I liked that. When you're in that moment, you just keep going another 10 seconds.
That makes you different, though. You've got to admit, because most people don't want another 10 seconds.
Well, it hurt. It hurt. I'm not saying it's not going to hurt, it's going to hurt. But that fire inside is in us all. It's just you've got to dig sometimes. But it's a great truth to know that it's there. When you dig, it is there. And I think, as you say, once you get used to it and you start to practice it, the muscle gets stronger. And then you almost seek out tough times. You know this is a chance to shine. And as you say, that's how you separate yourselves in life. You're going to reach these points, but in those big moments, how are you going to act? It's always what separates reaching those summits from not reaching those summits.
*Never Give Up* is the name of your latest book. When *is* there a time to give up? Because there is a widely believed, I think, social phrase which is like "quitting is for losers," right? But sometimes when I look at my own life and my own career, quitting has played quite an important role sometimes in leaving a situation that wasn't good. So when should we give up?
Well, that's called wisdom. And it comes with experience, and there's always a right... First of all, my 16-year-old nephew came to me the other day and I said, "Bet, you really need to knock the smoking on the head. You're smoking a lot at the moment." He went, "But ever since I was a kid, you told me never give up." I said, "Apart from the cigarettes!"
There's always a time to give things up. And sometimes experience and wisdom... you just don't want to be a pigheaded "head in the dirt" person. That's not smart. Intuition and experience has to know, "Hold on, this isn't maybe the right route, let's just take a step back."
And I think it's why so often great mountaineers are often a little bit older, because they have that patience and that judgment. When you're young and you don't care and you kind of maybe should be listening to that intuition and maybe the weather's changed or something's happening that's saying, "Hold," and you go and you die.
It's why so many high-altitude mountaineers' deaths are at that relentless inability not to adapt or change your plan. Where with age, you have that ability to listen to your instinct, to the mountains, to the circumstances, and maybe adapt and maybe change. And as we know, with big mountains, they'll always be there.
So I think that ability in life to listen to that and to amend and to adapt is super important. And look at soldiering same—it was always the "thinking man's soldier" was the mantra of a lot of the Special Forces stuff. It was always being able to adapt, improvise, adapt, overcome. That's leading with this and with this.
So of course there's a time for pulling back and holding. But I think generally the message, 90% of the time, most people don't get to where they're going not because of a lack of skills or talent, it's because of that lack of kind of ability to keep going when it's hard. And that's why I think doing little things every day, small things that, whatever it is, that just push your... push this muscle a bit, is good.
Even if it's like... I mean, I have a thing for years, and it's now super popular, everyone's kind of doing it, the ice bath training. But I've done it for years and I love this thing of just three minutes a day I'm just in that cold water—whether it's a river or in winter or a lake or at night time. I try to find somewhere every day just get in that cold and it hurts, still hurts.
But it's just a little something, a little something, whatever it is, that's your something that's difficult to do. Because most people spend their lives avoiding the painful, the difficult. They're scared of public speaking or they're scared of... so they avoid the things that challenge us. But as you know, it's where growth happens. And growth isn't always fun; it's often painful, but it's like a muscle: the more you push it, the more you get used to it.
There's a great thing at the Commando Training Center in Lympstone that just says, "Comfortable with uncertainty." And it's a great thing for life, you know. Don't get sat in that comfort zone too much. I call it a comfort pit. Somewhere to get out of quickly.
I was wondering if, like training in the gym, when I do my repetitions of the weights, I then need a bigger weight to get the same gain. So do you find yourself needing like a bigger thrill, or a bigger expedition, or a greater challenge to get the same like feeling of fulfillment and contentment from your work these days? And where do you find that now after you've climbed Everest and done all you've done?
I don't feel that, no. I think what you're saying in the question is, do you actually—is that where you get your fulfillment through that thing? And the answer is no, it's not where I get fulfillment. I do these things, I try and do the difficult things just to keep that inside muscle honed a little bit.
But it's not always about bigger and better and "rah rah." As I read the other day, half of life is getting to where you achieve your goals, and the other half of life is being really happy to enjoy it. The second one's a harder one to do. And I think a big... you know, I've been super lucky to fulfill so many things.
I still have many goals, many ambitions, but it's not goals and ambitions that trump the last one and ever bigger. It's not like that. It's just really grateful and trying to make sure you stay alive, make sure you're always grateful for the many good things and the luck you've had along the way. Keep that muscle inside honed. Keep working, keep doing your best. But it's definitely not where I find the fulfillment. It's not like the achievements are ever going to fulfill that hole.
Did you used to think it would?
Maybe a little bit. I think when I was young, I think Everest certainly for me was such a sort of symbol of like, "I'm going to do this," you know. It was at a time when only, I think, 20-odd Brits had ever climbed it, and it was like I thought, "This is going to be epic."
And then you see the realities of... we had four climbers lose their lives up there, and it really rattled me in many ways. I was lucky to reach the top and got back in one piece, but it didn't answer that question of... I don't know. I don't think I'd climb it now. I'm not so out on a quest to kind of prove anything.
But I think when you're young, half of it's good to have a quest. You've got to have that goal. But the other half is that it's not the answer to life, is it? You know, that maybe comes from elsewhere, and with time and experience, you learn the real answer to life is always rooted in something inside and relationships with great people.
A lot of it, I think, comes down to love, actually. Knowing those connections with great people and a love of whatever it could be—a love of the outdoors, a love of what you do. But it's not found in achievement always.
Have you found where it is found? You don't seem to be so certain exactly where that feeling of fulfillment... You talked about the second half, which is like enjoying the goals. Have you figured that bit out?
I think it's a lifelong journey of figuring it out. I hope I edge closer to where it's *not* found, which is it's never found in trophies and triumphs and accolades. Those things... I see those things with clearer lenses now.
I'm more proud of being married, you know, 22 years. I've got three great boys. The simpler things I'm more proud of. I think, where do I really find fulfillment? I think my faith is a quiet thing in that sense. Faith's always a tricky one and hard to articulate very well, but it definitely comes from a place of like, that you're okay. You're okay. We're forgiven, we're loved, empowered. And try and live life as best you can, eyes wide open with gratitude in your heart and a tough, resilient spirit to go for things. And I look at life in those sort of terms more and more.
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I feel like in 2022, in the UK, where I think we've grown more atheist as a society—some people say there's no such thing as an atheist, but we've grown more atheist in our viewpoints—it is harder to communicate if you do have a faith. Why did you say that it's a tricky thing?
I think it's been so tarnished. I think religion has been so tarnished, and I get that. I was always the least religious person growing up. I just thought... I mean, as a kid, I had a really natural faith. I always believed in some higher power and that I could feel there was something around. As a little kid, it was like, "Ah, wow."
And then I think I went to school and then, you know, you had to go to church and they all wore white cassocks and spoke in Latin. I thought, "Gosh, I really missed it. This is actually what it's about." And it's been a life journey to unwind all of that and realize actually, the "little me" had it right.
Faith is in your heart, knowing that you're not alone and there's something bigger than us out there and they're for us, not against us. That power is for us, not against us. And despite my doubts and all of those sort of things, I'm going to put my trust in that and try and have love at the center of all we do and live empowered and go for things. Not be scared to fail and not be driven by fear and all those sort of things. And that to me is what faith is.
So it's hard to articulate, I think, because it's personal and it's intimate, and also like I say, it has just as many doubts as it does... you know, doubt and faith, two sides of the same coin. I think it does feel like that for me. But through it all, I would say my Christian faith has been a real backbone and a kind of secret strength in many tricky moments. Light to a dark path, I always kind of feel.
I did wonder when I was reading about your faith, and I watched you pray for Obama just at the end of your time with him. Because I've sat here with guests who have undergone and witnessed such horrific things in their lives, and it's shaken their faith. In fact, Eubank was one of them; his brother suddenly died, they were both very religious, and that shook his faith.
Being out in nature and being on those expeditions up Everest, where two people fall to their death and two die of the cold, one would might assume that those moments would shake your faith. But it sounds like it's made it stronger in a way, from what you're saying.
Well, I think the two things happen often. It gets shaken and strengthened. And actually, my experience is that people who have really been taken to the edge, that's actually where they find their faith. You look at so many of the concentration camp stories and stuff.
It's two sides looking at it. One person said, "There can be no God, I've witnessed evil personified." And the other said—I can't remember who it was—who said, "I've been to the edge and I know there's no place that God isn't." It's all how we look at it, how we choose to live.
I choose to try and live with faith—faith in other people, faith in ourselves, faith in the Almighty. And that helped me. But it's funny that thing with Obama, because in a way that was never meant to be on TV. It was just a spontaneous thing at the end of the journey. And I'd... as you know, when you spend time with people, you get a sense of someone.
And I think at the end of that journey with Obama, I got a real sense that here's a guy with the weight of the world on his shoulders. And he got lighter as the journey went on. By the end, he said, "You know what? It's one of the best days of my presidency. I'm out of the office, I'm out of a suit, talking about stuff that's in here rather than being grilled on politics."
And I could see him getting lighter. And I just said at the end, I said, "First of all, good job, you're doing your best." I don't know if he gets told it very often; most people are giving him a hard time. But "you're doing your best, dib dib dib." And I wanted to just say, "Let's try and refill his fuel tank a bit."
And actually, it ended up going in the show. I put a hand on his shoulder and said, "Strength for this guy in the big decisions. Amen." And it wasn't really more complicated than that. But I don't know, I think the wild always creates honest connections without the fluff. And it didn't feel unnatural.
But it's funny how the effect of that—I still get people to this day talk about that a lot. And quite unlikely people often say, "That was a good moment." Not always easy—I mean, awkward sometimes, isn't it? Doing that sort of thing. But that's okay. I've learned that that's okay. Sometimes the awkward things are the best things. Telling someone that they're amazing can be awkward to a good friend, but it can mean a lot.
You said earlier about being rattled after Everest. One would never assume that, of course. You climb the biggest mountain in the world and you come down and you're rattled and your confidence is knocked.
I think big mountains are humbling. And sometimes you take on these big projects and it's about, "Come on, we're going to do it," and you're full of that confidence. But it's often quite surface. And I think when you see things close up... I think I came away with a real awareness that I'd been really lucky and got away with my life where others hadn't up there.
At this stage, Everest was killing one in six people's lives. And beforehand I read about that and it was almost kind of glamorous, it was almost like romantic. But you see the reality of it close up and it's not romantic; it's dark and difficult and confusing.
And I think my feeling at the end of it was that I got really lucky. I'd been no doubt dug deep in a few big moments and, you know, with some 92 days on that mountain, there's a lot of time where you do have to dig deep. But ultimately I had a bit of luck at key times.
And I think I came away aware of that and grateful for that, but less certain that just because you're determined in life doesn't mean everything's going to go well. Beforehand I kind of thought, "If you give everything, it's all going to work out." But as you know in everything in life, there's no guarantees. We live a "gloves off" life. Life is gloves off, and no rules of kind of like, "If you give this, it's all going to be roses and sunshine." You can give the best in the world and it's going to hit you sometimes. You get ill or something happens.
And I think that's the part of me that got a bit shaken. But you know, that's just life. And you have to live with your eyes wide open to that and still choose to try and make the good decisions and pick the good attitudes and put them on like a T-shirt every day. That even though the gloves are off, we're going to go for this, we're going to do our best to be positive, do our best to give our best, and keep going for it.
Those four people that passed away, were they climbing with you?
Two Russians, a Brit, and a New Zealander from other teams. But they were on the mountain at the same time and never came back. And I remember with their teammates afterwards, just them in tears and sitting with them. It definitely made me question a lot at the time: is any mountain really worth a life? Of which the clear answer is no.
But at the time you're—sometimes your ambition is, "We're going to go for it." And it's why I think now, with a bit of time and experience, would I do it now? Would I take a one-in-six chance of not coming home now? No, because you have more to live for. But I think at the time I was like, "I'm all in, I'm going to go for it, I want to make my mark at a young age." And the truth is I got lucky.
Fame.
Yeah, what does that one mean?
Yeah, you tell me. I've only been on the TV for a couple of minutes. You've been on there for many, many, many, many years. So I was hoping maybe you could give me a little bit of an overview of what fame is. Because when I looked at Bear Grylls' podcast, I really couldn't find much. For someone that's been in the public eye for so long, I could barely find anything. And then I read this quote that you don't like—sometimes you feel like when you meet someone, there's a sense of you're worried you might disappoint them because they're expecting you to be something else.
Well, I think that's true. I think part of my kind of... the answer is I don't do very many of these. I think... but that's okay. I'm not sort of hungry for more people to know everything. I do these sort of things every now and again with good people and when it feels right.
I think one of the reasons I get less comfortable sometimes in big groups of people and doing press stuff or doing... I'm not very natural. I don't really like the cameras on me, if I'm honest. I struggle really with that. I never went to TV for that. I went to TV because this producer said, "Do you want to try this thing?" And like I said, we were just married and starting out and pretty broke and it was like, "Let's go for it, let's see what happens."
But the sort of the recognition side of things... I struggle with the word "fame." I think it's a weird one. But the recognition side of things I struggle with more. And I think part of it is a little part of me feels I'm never going to be quite as good as people expect in as the TV sometimes makes out. And therefore, less is more. I'm very happy with my family and friends, and I go and work, but I want to kind of come home afterwards.
But when it comes to fame, I've kind of learned over the years to, first of all, take it with a bucket of salt. Don't believe it. It's not where your worth is. If your worth is that, you're always going to struggle because it goes up and down and ultimately it's going down, isn't it? When we're 95 years old, nobody's going to know who I am.
Speak for yourself!
But it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. But our sense of self-worth—you're always going to be fighting a losing battle, really. So I take it all with a bucket of salt. I think for my family growing up with a little bit of that, they've... I always say to our boys growing up, "We've got friends all over the world." Look at it like that—amazing connections.
I can go to any country and there's a connection with people there and people want to tell their stories and go, "Oh, I've just been camping with my son," or "My uncle was this or did that," or "My son's a scout, daughter's a scout," or whatever it is. And I like those connections. Always grateful for people's stories and that's fine. So that's how I kind of look at it. Pinch of salt, don't believe it all, but always be grateful for friends all over the world.
Did you struggle with it at the start?
I think I struggled with it when I felt the attention was on me. I didn't like that. I remember so well in the early days when we started doing *Man vs. Wild*, the first two seasons we were just gunning and going and it was all just kind of fun. Out there with a small crew, I never really didn't see it go out on telly.
It was going out in America at the time, so I was over in the UK. I didn't see it, I didn't know what was happening. It was just lucky, it was good timing and it just worked. It was meant to be at that time. But I didn't really see much of that because I'd come home and live a regular life.
And I remember the head of Discovery after a couple of seasons saying, "Your show is now the number one best on Discovery. It's getting over a billion viewers now around the world." And my heart sank. I really started to struggle with it.
I suddenly started to think when we were filming, I'd be self-conscious and what am I saying and hold on, and the fun went out of it. And my anxiety—I got more anxious with it all and I thought, "I don't want people looking at this or doing this." And it was a really sort of marked time. And the crew said it as well, they said, "Is everything okay?"
And I think I had to learn to shift the focus. It's about other people. When I realized people coming up weren't going, "You're amazing," they were going, "I took my son camping." And when I realized it was about them and I really tried to shift it in my brain: everything's about them.
It's what it brings out. Whether it's the single mom coming to me saying, "When you once said about when you're in that storm in the jungle and you said sometimes life is going to beat you up and you've just got to be dogged and keep going, keep your head down, the storms won't last forever. And I really understood that as a single mom trying to hold down all these jobs."
That for me lifted my whole... I thought, "That's why I do this job." And it kind of shifted it off me. And that's why I've always loved my job now as Chief Scout. For me that was a revelation to be able to say, when people come up to me and go, "Oh, you've done this or this now," "Yeah, but look what you could do. You could join that and you can do this." Somewhere to be able to sort of direct people a little bit and refrain.
I get such a kick out of that. It's why I love *Running Wild* so much, because it's about other people. It's about taking these rookies—they might be amazing rookies, but they're often wilderness rookies—and opening their eyes to my office, the outdoors, what the wild can do for people. That light inside, that pride, that "Come on!" and that magic. And saying, "Look at this." And that freed me a lot away from the attention on me.
You said a word there which I started thinking about a lot, which was the word "anxiety." Which actually I think is a quite an interesting thing because much of your work is about the natural world. And one of I think our natural human signals is anxiety. It kind of tells you something that you're potentially doing wrong, maybe a train of thought that you've attached yourself to which is destructive.
Depression's one of those things as well that I talk about a lot. It also seems to be a pretty clear signal, a natural signal that we have. Some of my guests have said that they've felt it's a signal that they've been disconnected from their tribe. And they've explained the science of that. And even the signal of rejection and how that makes us feel is a prehistoric signal telling us to get back into our tribe because there's a chance we might be thrown off the island by our tribe, so to change our behavior.
Anxiety, depression, and this whole mental health awareness that's emerged in the last 10 years... What's your relationship been like with those topics?
First of all, it's amazing that people are talking about this and focusing on it more. I think it's long overdue. It's a key part of our arsenal for life, isn't it? Our weapons that are going to help make your heart happy. You need to look after the physical, you need to look after the emotional, you need to look after the spiritual, and you need to look after the mental side of things. These are all weapons in our arsenal.
And if you neglect one, there's always going to be a little part of your heart that is going to struggle a bit. So you've got to try and put things in place that help your mental health. And I think people for many years often neglected that—you shut things away. But actually so many of the things that help us mentally are simple things.
As you say, those connections to people and that honesty and vulnerability. And like we've been talking about, not letting yourself live a life that actually isn't real. Not letting people make you into that hero that you don't always feel. Stay honest, stay connected, talk to people.
Be outside. How many times do we see studies proving that when we're outside and we're in the sun and we're expressing and we're working hard and we're connected to people? That's why the wild is such an amazing mental health weapon to build up that resource.
In a world that often depletes the resource—all of this stuff is always pulling, pulling—it leaves you emptier. But for me, the wild and connection and the sun and outdoors and swimming in cold rivers and challenge and failing—all these sort of things help my mental health. But you can't take your eye off the ball with mental health; you've got to, and you're not always going to get it right. And that's okay.
Is there a time in your life where you discovered mental health was a very real thing because of an experience that you'd had? Because I think for many years I thought it was something that happened to other people. And then there's a couple of sort of catalytic events that happened in my life that made me realize that I am not immune to anxiety, to depressive symptoms and all of those things. But is there something in your life where there was a pivotal moment?
I think I've been lucky in the sense that I've never suffered from really bad depression where many friends I've stood alongside have really had battles. I think I've always had an intuition of when I need to change something and when I'm struggling a little bit and when this feeling of anxiety's been going on a bit. Hold on, what can we change? What helps me?
And I've always sort of accidentally found things that help make that problem better. And for me it's been that go-to of being outdoors, being with great friends, having a few—just a few good friends rather than lots and lots of friends. Even things like our Be Military Fit (BMF), our veterans-run fitness business, has helped me so much because it's a collective tribe of veterans, people who need that camaraderie but want to train, want to stay physically fit.
They don't want to be in a gym inside with white light and all of that. They want to be outside in the fresh air, they want to be down in the dirt a little bit, and they want to laugh at themselves in situations and face a few rain-swept early mornings training outside in a park together.
And like our physical health, the more we can be aware of the things that do help and are proven to help and to gravitate towards those, seek those things in our life—be outside, be connected, train, be honest, have a few friends—the more it's going to help us when we do have the dark moments. And I've never met anyone who doesn't have them. They might tell you they don't, but everyone has these moments and I certainly have. But I've also never met a strong person who's had an easy past. It's just part of it. If you're going to go for big things and you're going to shoot for the top, you're going to have struggles and failures as part of life.
When was your darkest moment?
One was when I broke my back in the military and was in rehabilitation for a long time. So much of my rock in my life had been that I was physically strong and I was doing a job I loved. Suddenly, I couldn't even reach the bathroom without excruciating agony. My back was broken in three places. I had to leave my job with the military and it was just a "what am I going to do with my life?" moment.
But I also look at that time and I think if I hadn't gone through that, I don't think I ever would have actually had the drive and the impetus to make that Everest expedition happen at that young age. And if I hadn't done that, that wouldn't have opened the door to other things and then eventually the TV.
It's like these clouds that often... it's why not to be scared when life does hit you sideways because there's often sort of a plan there. You just got to try and keep moving forward towards it. But that was definitely a dark time.
And I think also losing my dad at a young age. My wife and I both lost our parents within 10 weeks of each other in year one of marriage. We were young, 24 or 25, and just starting out on life. I think we always had that safety net of our parents behind us. Suddenly both losing our dads and now being responsible for our moms... it definitely took that safety net away and it was like, "Wow, we're both dealing with trauma here." Not always very well, but we got through it.
I look back now and actually it's what made us. Made us really tight and to have a love and a trust and a vulnerability together that has been the key thing in our relationship ever since. But at the time, it was just pure pain and a huge hole that is still there to this day. I mean, seeing our three boys grow up, the great loss for me is that they will never know my dad, he would never know them and how like he was, they are.
All of these dynamics that we take for granted. So often I see friends now and they go, "Oh, my mom's a bit poorly and my dad..." I'm thinking, "You're so lucky to have had your parents for that long." We were dealing with looking after my mom and all her bills and everything when I was 25. It's been going on a long time. But at the same time, I think my dad taught me so many of the key things in life: be resilient and be kind and keep going. And those things I'll always be grateful for. And I wish—my only regret is that I didn't get a chance to say to him, "Wow, you were right. You were actually right all along when I kicked against it. You were right. Follow your dreams, be kind, be resilient, never give up." And I never said thank you enough for that.
That's something I always worry about. My dad has outlived his siblings, and I don't feel like I've made enough of an effort to stay connected. There's something about us where we just think our parents are going to be around forever, like you said with the safety blanket thing. It almost reminds me of COVID where I didn't realize the tectonic plate of society could ever move.
So I built my life ignorantly on this foundation that society would be open and that... and then one day someone showed me that there was even a tectonic plate underneath me that I didn't know was there. And my parents are the same thing; they've just always been there, so I assume naively that they always will be. What advice would you give me about that?
Well, never take that for granted. And never be scared of saying it. I mean, tell him now. Tell him on this. He'll listen to this. He's probably incredibly, incredibly proud of you—all you've achieved, superseded his wildest dreams of what a son could be. And he should be proud. And tell him.
What would you tell your dad if he was listening? Maybe he is.
Well, I think I'd say thank you for the little things. You know, it's not the—it's thanks for being there on that touchline when I was a linesman. Thanks for not putting too much focus just on success and school reports and being top. Thank you for putting focus on being kind and having a dream, even though it might not be the path most trodden. But go for it. If it's your dream, go for it. And thanks for saying that never give up is the golden currency of life rather than good looks, sporty talent, or academic brilliance. But you know, I think for you, your dad knows. He's sure he knows, but never stop telling him.
Parental relationship is one of those ones that's always going to be—there's always going to be dynamics and struggles and fallouts and arguments, but you can never articulate it too much that you love someone. And you can never overestimate how much those simple awkward, difficult words to say mean.
My great buddy said he really wanted to tell his dad one time he loved him. He knew he was so English, his father, that it would be a really difficult thing to say. And eventually he said, "I'm going to say it." He said, "Dad, I just want to let you know I really love you." And his dad goes, "You been drinking?"
But the thing is, that's okay. His dad would go home that night knowing that he hadn't been drinking and his son hadn't been drinking, but that was special. And I think those awkward—it's back to that thing of doing sometimes the awkward difficult things, like the prayer with Obama, is a really good thing.
And I've tried to get better at this in my life of saying thank you and doing nice things and saying awkward but good things to people. I said it to my great buddy the other day, Rupert. I said to him, we work a lot together and stuff, so I said, "Actually, forget the work side of things. You're such a lovely friend."
And I literally saw his eyes well up just for a second. And it was like, "Yeah, great, great, let's keep training" or whatever we were doing. But it's sometimes the awkward things are the good things. And I hope as I live and do more in life that I create more and more of those moments.
There are many people I, like I said, stand on the shoulders of many giants that are the real heroes in my life. I definitely consider my dad one. I definitely consider those I served alongside in the military many, still friends to this day. I was with Corporal Williams, my old squadron patrol commander who's now 70 and lives in Merthyr Tydfil. I was with him the other day for a walk in the Brecons. Just reminding him, I go, "You've been an amazing friend through life, and I'll never forget the belief you had in me in the early days. Thank you." I consider the camera crew I work with in that same vein, and never take those for granted.
Your wonderful wife. I remember you saying once upon a time, "If you really want to know someone, you've got to ask the wife and kids what they're like."
It's so true, isn't it?
What if I asked your wife? What would she say? What would she say about the "flawed" Bear?
She'd probably say flawed, flawed, flawed. But in what way? I think loyalty and sticking through things and knowing the real us and that we're not perfect and we're there for each other creates a power to it. I do look at relationships that are special, like with your kids or with your wife, as like stained glass. You need to—they're really beautiful, but you've got to protect them. And you've got to protect them number one.
I think it's so easy in life to do the opposite, as actually we take that one for granted and we produce our best for the dinner party, to hold court and say the jokes and... and it's the wrong way around. It's the wrong way around. Save your best—I think something I've learned and still try—I don't always get right by any means—but I know the goal is to try and save my best for those I value the most, which is the closest relationships with your wife and with your kids. Make—save the best for them rather than kind of be tired and grumpy with them and then go out and then be on form. It's trying to shift it the other way, and it's counter-cultural, but it's always going to make you happier.
And that's why I say if you want to know what someone's like, ask their wife. Don't look at the press reports and don't read their own stories about themselves. Ask the person who really knows them when the mask is off and when the cameras aren't rolling. They're the ones. And it's not to say anyone's perfect, but try and save your best for them. I think if you were to ask my wife what I would love her to say, I'd love her to say that I was loyal and kind and fought for them. That's what I've always tried to do in my life and prioritize them.
Many times in my life, in the early days of TV especially, there was so much pressure to be away too much and go and do that and do the extra episode and do the extra thing and Discovery Channel asked for one more thing. Then you end up burning the things that are most valuable because you're away too much and you're focusing on this and it always creates damage.
I'd say sorry for those times I was away too much and it's why I fought so hard to start to produce and make our own shows where we owned the format and we could decide. I go, "No, it's our boy's half-term. I'm not going, even though it's Tom Cruise or whoever. I'm going to be at the half-term for this. I want to put the shift onto the family." And it's been a great thing. It's been a key thing. The other stuff is work; it'll always be there and it's okay.
Sometimes I fall into the trap of doing that. You know, you get an offer come in and it's "Oh, £50k or £100k to do this thing here, it'll take one day," but I'd scheduled to be in Indonesia that day with my partner. And I'm looking and I'm going, "Can I really turn down £100k for one day just hanging out on the sofa with my partner?" It's a new challenge that I've been contending with. You've been through this.
Well, I think the answer is at the same time you're hustling and you've got to work and you've got to build it. And you're building it especially when you get married and have kids, you're building for their future. And all of us have this struggle. But I think listening to that inner voice a little bit... there's this line, isn't there, that we walk where this side is family, this side is work.
The problem is if you only try and walk this line, everyone's always asking favors. "It's just one off, it's one event, it's one thing." Well, before you know it, you're spending too long on this side of the line and you're creating damage and loss. It's only damage because it's losing; you're creating loss on this side. And I think what I've learned is just shift the line a little bit. Make the line here.
Oh, so make it even more family-orientated to start with.
So when you drift over the line a few times, which you're going to do, you're still in surplus. You're still in surplus. And I think the wisdom and experience of life is knowing, "Do you know what? No, we should go and do that. I will go and do that in fact, that's important." But knowing also the ones to really protect. And it's often the little things, isn't it? Like the linesman story, or that school play, or that anniversary or whatever.
And listen, I'm speaking from a place of flawed failure through many, many times. But I've learned through those things. I've been there and made mistakes and got them wrong, but I've learned through those that it's worth protecting the most—the thing of most value in your life. And I think then with success, what happens? You'll reach a point where you don't need that extra £100k. Maybe when you're getting it, maybe you've got to hustle a bit, maybe you've got to make some sacrifices. You do, to be successful you have to sacrifice. But maybe you reach a point where enough is enough. And then what you're really saying to your girlfriend, or it might be your wife or your kids at that stage, is that "I value you more than the £100k." And when you're successful, it doesn't get any easier to say no, but it becomes more important to say no.
Speaking of work, really compelled by when I read that you're the Chief Scout. I was like, that's the CEO of the Scouts, right? Is that not the CEO of the Scouts effectively?
Well, I don't think I've ever—I've never had an aspiration to be like a CEO. "CEO" has always felt very important, even though we are on *The Diary of a CEO*. I never feel like a CEO. Greatest honor in my life has been to be a small cog in this incredible worldwide machine of 55 million young people bound together by a common set of values of respect and kindness and humility and adventure and determination and life skills.
It's an amazing privilege. I never take it for granted. It's a worldwide force for good, it truly is. The scouting movement is unlike anything else out there and it really has been the greatest honor in my life and I love it. I can sum up my job as Chief Scout in three words: encourage, encourage, encourage. And shine the light on those young people because the stuff they get up to—the missions they're on, the efforts, the endeavors, the expeditions—what they do is amazing.
They're leading the thing on climate change, they're leading in many refugee camps and disaster areas helping, serving. And when you get 57 million young people around the world saying, "I make a promise to be kind and helpful," it's amazing. There's a power to that and it's brilliant.
Do you think your career is complete?
I hope not. I hope not. I'm still hustling. I still like the struggle, I like the fight, I like the ambition. We've built a brilliant team, we're pushing many endeavors away from just the TV shows. I'm super proud of our Be Military Fit, our veterans fitness business. We have our theme parks, our adventure parks at the NEC, and opening up new ones around the world. We have the Scouts stuff, we have education initiatives. I love it. For me, it's about using this God-given platform we've been given through the TV shows to try and do exactly the same as we do with the TV shows, which is to shine a light on you and say, "Look what you can do."
Will it ever be complete?
And I hope not. I think it's like my bucket list gets longer and longer as I live in life. It's like the more things—we could do that, and we could help do this. And I think I always want to live with that eyes-wide-open, willing to be all in, willing to fail, willing to pick myself up, with great people. Have that focused mission of trying to empower other people. Helping other people to find their adventure in life, whether it's through books or TV shows or whatever, to be able to go that extra mile, to be able to dig deep, to understand the storms of life come, but sometimes you've got to be dogged and determined and keep going. I want to bring that adventure spirit to people every day I live on this earth. That's the goal.
To no end.
To no end. I think I'll finish the TV shows one day, that will naturally end in due course. I never thought I'd still be doing it now, but we're doing more TV shows than ever before. We're doing a new network show on US TV next month, we're starting Season 8 of *Running Wild*. We're still out there gunning it and going and I love that. But the TV shows will end, but the adventure won't.
God willing, I hope when I'm an old guy I'm going to be having loads of adventures with my kids and eventually with grandkids and sharing that adventure spirit. Because as you know, adventure is truly a state of mind. Whatever you're doing, whatever... my wife always jokes that I'm going to be in the old people's home going, "Come on, come on, we're going to do it, we're going to go over..." And I think that's a state of mind that is about pushing the boundaries and having that resilience and that kind of wide-eyed gratitude for life and the connections. Because the truth is the world is amazing and it's a huge privilege. You look at everything that's happening around the world, there's hardship and struggling and battle and loss. And the fact that we get to have our families and have something we love to do and that we're safe and we live in this society that has a rule of law... all these things are so easy to take for granted. We must never take that for granted. We've got to live with that eyes-wide-open, "thank you," and keep that adventure state of mind firing bright. That fire inside shining bright.
*Never Give Up* is the name of your recent book. This book, I got the sense that it was slightly more special than previous books to you, and that it had taken five years to write this book. That you've written it all yourself.
It took a long time. I was reluctant to write it. I wrote an autobiography called *Mud, Sweat and Tears* originally. That book did well, it did 20 weeks at number one, and I always kind of felt that I'm not going to beat that. We're done. But that book really ended as TV started. And so many of the questions that I get asked by my kids and by people in the street are always the behind-the-scenes—what was it like on this? What was it like taking that person? What about the struggles there or whatever?
In a way, they're the stories that I wanted my boys to understand. I think my kids have kind of grown up and seen the good side, seen the things that have worked, but aren't always aware of the many failures behind those successes. And I wanted to be able to share all of that and share the things that actually made the difference. And I wanted to write it myself and be honest in it. So it took a long time to write, but I'm really proud of it. And I think it was always going to be called *Never Give Up*. It's at a time where I think the world's coming through an incredibly—continually to be an incredibly tough time. I think that spirit of relentless determination is needed more than ever with all people and young people especially. So I'm proud of the stories and proud to call it *Never Give Up*.
When I wrote my book, I didn't realize this until I'd written it—that it was actually much more a learning process than it was a preaching process. Because it is a journey, writing a book. Is there something that you learned that you didn't know before you started on that journey writing *Never Give Up*? That was profound or a problem you solved from putting pen to paper that you hadn't solved before?
§02Transcript — part 2
Well, I've definitely learned that for writing or speaking to be good, it has to be difficult. It has to be painful. How often do we see the person who stands up on stage and gives a talk and loves the sound of their own voice, and it's just like it's a bore, they're a bore. But the person who's... "This is hard to articulate or talk about, but for what it's worth, this is where you're there." And it's the same with writing. I think it's got to be vulnerable and it's got to have that struggle to it. And that's why it took me a while. What did you find?
Well, for me, there was a couple of questions that when I started a chapter I hadn't actually answered them yet, and by the end of the chapter I'd answered the question. But it was because of that process. Is it easy for you to be vulnerable? Are you someone that—because we often think of someone that's been in the SAS and this tough guy, resilience—vulnerability seems to be the antithesis of that for a lot of people. The complete opposite. How have you—we talk about toxic masculinity a lot now. I sat here with Terry Crews, the actor, big tough guy, and his new book *Tough* which is about toxic masculinity. What's your relationship with vulnerability?
Well, first of all, Terry Crews—hero. One of our *Running Wild* guests, actually. I took him on one last year and he was, like with you, very honest about some of this stuff. Vulnerability was hard initially, but I think it's where life is. Like when you climb any big mountain, where you're roped to someone 24 hours a day, it brings you close, but it also is where the bonds are. And when you're vulnerable with someone, it creates a connection. You and me probably feel more connected by the vulnerability than the, "Look at this." Vulnerability creates bonds and creates strength. But like all these things, there's a pain and it takes a strength to do it.
But I think I'm not scared to show that. I've got nothing to prove, and I don't want people to think it's just all heroic. I want people to know that there's been many struggles through it all, but these things have quietly helped me. I always think people have two phases of their life: one is like you don't want the world to see who you really are, you're out there projecting this kind of image. And then the second half is you no longer care. You just want to be honest. And when you're honest, there's amazing bonds with the people you want to create bonds with. Some people have that realization at 25 and they live the rest of their life in this empowered way. Some people don't reach that point until they're 85. They live the whole life with this mask, and it's only when they're with that maybe nurse in a nursing home, the first person they're actually being honest and vulnerable and broken with. But you eventually realize it. The goal of life is to get to this place early, because it's where the wealth is, it's where the happiness is, because you're not having to pretend any longer.
And you can form those deeper relationships, as you said. Which is exactly what happens when we have these conversations. We have a closing tradition on the podcast, which is our last guest asks a question for the next guest. So the question is: If you had to predict, where will you be this time in five years' time?
Wow. The truth is, I hope to be doing the same sort of thing in the sense that living this mission of trying to empower other people to find their adventure through all these different means, you know—through the TV shows or the books or whatever. I love that mission. It starts from my relationship with my kids and it extends to Scouts and it extends beyond that from there. So I hope to have that same mission.
Maybe at a slightly slower pace. We film a lot of shows at the moment and it's away a lot and it definitely has full-on elements to it. So maybe kind of dial down the pace a bit. But same mission, and still protecting family first, you know—before work, before even that mission. Protect family first and keep those relationships strong. My body aches every day, I've got many scars. I'm like an old man getting up in the morning. But I don't apologize for any of those things.
I think by the end of my life, I don't want to arrive in a perfectly preserved body. That quote: "I want to come skidding in sideways, covered in scars, screaming, 'Yahoo, what a ride!'" Long may that spirit continue.
Bear, thank you so much for the time and generosity. I've got to say, this does really feel like a huge honor for me because of how infrequently you do anything like this. I just want to communicate how much of an honor this genuinely feels like for me, and I feel very special. And I feel like our team are very honored to have you here and to have this conversation with you.
You're someone that's achieved an unbelievable amount, and for you to be so honest... because it would be so easy for you to play into the narrative that you have superpowers, but it's almost impossible to get you to indulge in that. And as you say, that makes the things you've achieved so attainable for everybody that's listening, including myself. And if it is something that I can learn and grow—a muscle I can build—then that for me is incredibly empowering. And empowerment is so evidently at the center of all the work you do with the Scouts, with your new book *Never Give Up*, which I highly recommend everybody reads. The paperback is out on the 9th of June, but it's really—you can tell you've written it. You can tell that it's come from a place of real authenticity and someone who is willing to tell you the truth. And we need a lot more of that. So thank you. I'll never be able to say thank you enough for coming and doing this, and yeah, thanks for the inspiration over the years. You've empowered me just in this conversation.
It's okay. Well, likewise, you're doing an amazing job. And your dad, he will definitely know it.
I'm going to text him. I'm going to send him a voice note after this. So thank you, Bear. Thanks.
Take care.
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