Ron Miscavige

00:03Four 3 two one and we're live what what's up Ron how are you I'm doing okay how doing right doing good man quick start I came in here 10 seconds ago we're on the air you I know well I wanted it to be that way it's it's more natural sometimes like some of the best stuff gets said off mic so we figured now how to do it where people get in and as soon pretty much as soon as we sit down we start talking um no complaints so you contacted us after the Leah reminy interview right and you wanted to get on and you have this book that you wrote It's called ruthless what's the correct pronunciation it's cavage Miss cavage no Miss cavage Miss cavage yeah the actual name of the book is ruthless right Scientology my son David miscavage and me right now let me let me just say this before we get started because Scientology this is the first time I've ever been contacted they sent a uh an

00:59email email to my publicist and they have a rebuttal to what you wrote and their rebuttal is at a website Ron miscavage book.com and they want people to know about their website which is scientology.org and they have a statement this is their statement Ron miscavage is seeking to make money on the name of his famous son David miscavage oh David miscavage has taken care of his father throughout his life both financially and by helping him and even the most dire circumstances Ron miscavage was nowhere around when David miscavage ascended to the leadership of the Church of Scientology mentioned by and working directly with the religion's founder elron hubard and entrusted by him with the future of the church any father exploiting his son in this manner is a sad exercise and betrayal Mr David miscavage is far-reaching vision and unrelenting dedication has brought the

02:07Church of Scientology to where it is today guaranteeing its future for generations to come scientologists worldwide love and respect Mr miscavage for his tireless work on behalf of their religion so that's that's their statement that's what they wanted to say and I feel like it's only fair you know we had Leah Remy on and we have you on and I've had uh Louis THU on right and look I feel like I don't know the story but anytime a father is so disconnected from his son they have to write a book about him it's a sad time do you feel like that no you don't feel sad at all I don't feel that I just woke up one day and said I'd like to write a book about scientology right and if I can give you a short encapsulated statement I think we could set a nice groundwork for the whole interview you mind if I do that sure okay I was a Scientologist for 42 years were you raised in it no I got my family

03:10in in 1970 but I was in the church for 42 years the last 26 and a half years I worked at the international base in hemt California I escaped from that base on March 25th 2012 you escaped escaped that's right I had to plan that as Escape for 6 months we can go into this in more detail but just let me give you this short story okay about a year and a half later there was a private guest investigator caught by the name of Dwayne Powell who was around the corner from my house looking at a house to buy so he could spy on me from that house and there is no so a lady in the neighborhood saw him and she thought he was a drug dealer or up to no good so she called the West Dallas Police and Nick pie came out and conf front of the guy he gave Nick some and Nick said Hey listen man you're under arrest do you mind if I look in your car so Nick went to the van and opened it up and in

04:09a trunk there were five license plates from five different states there were two handguns a stun gun two rifles one fitted up with a silencer and 2,000 rounds of ammunition so they arrested the guy they took him in for interrogation and then his son came looking for him because his son was a partner in this business the father's name was Dwayne Powell and the son was Daniel Powell Daniel came looking for his father and by the way if you want to hear these interviews they're on Tony Ortega's website Tony Ortega the underground bunker you can hear what I'm telling you okay so Daniel is telling me you know how they operated they were getting paid $110,000 a week to follow me and report on my doings from 8:00 in the morning till 8:00 every night an incident happened in Jamesville Wisconsin this is It's kind of what do you do like what could you possibly do

05:04that' be worth studying is it just to freak you out like that's what I don't understand like if you follow like if I follow Jamie you know what you know what I'm going to get I'm gonna get Jamie looking at the internet Jamie watching basketball maybe Jamie goes to the gym maybe Jamie goes for a run maybe Jamie goes on Tinder does a little right right swiping right yeah I don't know okay people do that you could get out of watching them it's not like you're out there burying bodies no kidding anyway Le let me continue because this goes on so they're interrogating them that's Nick pie and there's a Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms agent Rick henkins and because they were concerned about that Sil they thought hey maybe they're out to hit me right cuz I am the father of the chairman of the board right so then Daniel the son is being interrogated and he said they they followed me to a town

05:51called Jamesville Wisconsin where I went shopping in Aldi's grocery store okay this is this is very detailed well I'm telling you what happened so I come out and I had bags of grocery and it was a summertime so I had a pocket t-shirt on I bent over to put the groceries in the car I thought my cell phone was going to fall out I grabbed my left chest they're looking at me in the van which they had been following me in they saw me the father called his contact and said listen it looks like the target is having a heart attack what shall we do they referred to me as the target all right oh Jesus no you got a silencer and 2,000 rounds of ammo all right okay so they called the Guy Greg said listen let me call you back couple minutes later a guy come on the phone identified himself as David miscavage and he said to them listen if it's his time to die let him die don't do anything don't

06:44intervene that's my son all right well it didn't just happen right I mean you didn't you didn't I I don't want to interrupt your story cuz I feel like it goes on but I mean your relationship with your son didn't just start there so it had to it had to go sour no right listen my relationship with David when he was a kid was incredible I mean we got along great he was a Snappy little kid he was just very bright great sense of humor uh just I enjoyed his company but as he Grew Older as he got into Scientology which I got him in by the way and I can get into that how I got him in he then started acquiring power and I think he went from Dr Jael into Mr hide as an example when I worked on sta he never referred to me as Dad he called me Ron the base that I lived on in Hammet it got to the point where if you wanted to send a letter to somebody you had to write the letter put it in an

07:45unsealed envelope the security guards would read it see if there was anything bad in there that I shouldn't be saying send it back and I would correct it when it was okay then they sealed the envelope and send it out if I wanted to call somebody on a telephone I had have somebody listening on the other extension and this is by his orders or is this just how Scientology runs no it's not how Scientology works it he is the Undisputed dictator of Scientology so this is his antire doing that's the way he wanted it to run Scientology in 1970 when I got in was totally different than well how was it then it was like for a free spirit you know just right very L fair but you did courses you you could come in and do things that would actually improve your ability to communicate to have better interpersonal relations I bought the book I bought dtic in 1994 cuz uh I

08:39moved to California and I was really into self-help books and stuff like that and I saw one of those uh late night infomercial ads yeah and I was like this looks like you know the reactive mind Hey I want to I want to have control of the reactive mind and uh you know I got into it and I read it a little bit and I was like hm some probably some good principles in here some decent IDE ideas and I always Associated Scientologist with being um positive people that got a lot of things done that's a very true statement and I'm telling you at what they call the bottom of the bridge because the entire Scientology experience would be a bridge to total freedom you enter in at a certain point you're given basic things basic courses basic communication skills that you're taught and I'm telling you you go out on the street after you do this stuff and you're more effective in handling life

09:28so the early stages of it you feel Absol they're very effective I mean they were effective then they're effective today if you learn the proper communication formula that will improve your life alone sure just communicating correctly knowing there's compon there's parts of it it's not just hey you and the other guys say what do you want no there literally get the other person's attention make sure uh you're giving him a communication that he can understand you're not going to talk to somebody in French if English you know just all little details that you learn and you drill these and then there's other things about uh interpersonal relationships with your wife or a group you learn these you're better off so they're essentially telling you how to be a better person in the beginning yes and part of that you would then also become more positive just simply by

10:19having this these skills well this sounds good it is good where where does it go bad well here's where it goes bad look the further on you get in the let me back up a second let's say you learn the component parts of of communication uhhuh and you say hey you know what this is good right you agree to that that's the first step on taking you on this entire journey and then maybe you'll learn how you could divide your business into seven parts so that you could monitor various parts of it or your life in the seven parts so you could manage uh how you're doing income wise how education is your public relations these are all things you can easily agree to so now a little later on there's a data or a fact introduced that doesn't quite make sense to you but you think you know what everything they told me was good so far I'm just going to accept this now you're on can you give me an

11:22example um like is it like zenu type well yeah that would be a big example that's way down the line right that's way down the line but there's any there's some early wackiness that give you like indications that things might I'm going to tell you something you know I think you're right I think that's the one where you've agreed to so many things so far and all of the auditing you've gotten that that's helped you when it it comes to that as an example when I got on that level I thought well wait a minute there's 150 billion people on 76 nearby planets and they brought them here in spaceships how the did they get everybody here I looked at it from uh physics point of view yeah from a point of view of logistics right it's a lot of spaceships but I thought well I'll accept it I'll just do it 150 billion people per planet that was the problem was overpopulation all right oh but do

12:16you see what I'm saying so at that point you've agreed to so many things that were right right I understand when it comes up to that you're not going to say hey you're out of your godamn mind it's it's helping you give you a direction in life it's making you more positive it's giving you better communication skills you have uh a structure that you can follow when you communicate with people it makes you more presentable so everything's good in the beginning yeah why doesn't somebody just take that part and just like get rid of the rest listen I tell in my book what we're looking at right here you know ruthless Scientology my son David mavage and me I say at the very end if they were to if they were just to stick to the beginning things MH number one and number two have a general amnesty where they forgive everybody who they think has tried to dunam in the

13:04shit's going to hit the fan but maybe at the end of it you'd get some people back and knock off the disconnection policy I think if they did that it could be one of the best self-help groups ever but once you get up into those upper levels where they tell you you're going to become a superhuman as an example you'll be able to as a spiritual being leave your body and go some other place as an example and read a newsp paper in Germany huh isn't that like remote viewing yes and I'm going to tell you Joe I was involved for 42 years you never went to Germany No never left body and Portugal but you know what the no seriously though right I never met one person that ever achieved that nor did I achieve it but you don't talk about it I understand one of the things that say you don't talk about your case to somebody else so that's compartmentalized so everybody who's

13:59done this is thinking H I never got it maybe I'm the only one right so like maybe if I just keep working at this one day I'm going to pop through that's exactly it and you keep on going for the next level do they explain how you're going to do that is it through meditation techniques is it through some sort of hypnosis like how how are they supposed to go to Germany and read newspaper well out of their body there's drills that you that they have you do like in the earlier what they call OT levels operating fan is a word they use for Spiritual being all right and one of the drills that you would do would be spot three objects outside of your body spot three objects inside your body spot three objects outside your body spot three objects inside your body on a repetitive basis and that's supposed to let you out so is that as an example so it's like a meditation so I guess it would be you

14:55say spot are you saying like Envision well I mean in the physical Universe you can look that like that clock this book like that kind of thing and then inside your body just think you didn't Vision in three spots LS your ribs okay but then the other thing is like when you get to ot3 and you're talking about body thetans MH these are the alien beings that were brought here put on a nearby volcano and hydrogen bomb was set off and they sent up AR Ray grab these people look at oh you can look on the internet and find this oh no I've read it all okay yeah unfortunately and what happens then is they are all latched to your body like a bunch of fleas damn it and they're affecting your your thinking right and your personality and the idea on these upper levels is to get rid of all of them and uh achieve this nobody's ever done it like if there were three people who did it I'd say yeah you know

15:53maybe it can be done not not a one excuse my French buddy no you can swear away okay listen I got my doctorate degree in swearing in the United States Marine Corps but you know so how did you go from that to this how do you go from the Marine Corps which is about as real as it gets to to this well you just looking to improve yourself like yes I I was always look listen as a little kid in Mount Carnival Pennsylvania where I was born and raised I used to go up in our Garrett or the attic whatever you want to call it and my dad had all these books there and I used to take books off the shelf and read them and try to find out about life I was always looking for something and um always looking to improve myself or find a better way to live and I had a friend back in the 60s um Nelson Sandy I'm a musician too I don't know whether you knew that no I didn't yeah I played professionally my whole

16:44life Nelson Sandy and also been in the sales business because I had four kids you know you got to pay the bills no matter what you do so Nelson was a friend of mine in sales and one day he said to me Ron how would you like to make an extra $100,000 a year said what the hell you know great so he introduced me to something called holiday magic that's it was a multi marketing scheme oh all right you know what I mean by like yeah so what scheme pyramid scheme right pyramid yeah yeah so I went to an opportunity meeting and I thought you know maybe I could do this so I bought in and I started doing it and one day we're at an opportunity meeting that we were running and there's a girl standing next to me talking to a guy over here and I'm talking to this guy this guy says I'm a Scientologist I just hang on a second what is that I pinned him down for about a half an hour and for

17:33whatever reason the name rang a bell so he told me that I could go visit somebody who was a Scientologist and they discuss it one day a week got by the name of Frank Ogle in Woodbury New Jersey by the way you're from North Jersey aren't you yeah nework Newark yeah okay so I go to this place and he would have little classes where he' talk about communication and various things I went there for about four days in a month like for a month one day a week and I thought okay I got it now another Factor here David when he was born was cursed with an asthma condition that was the bane of his existence I mean as a little baby sometimes he turned blue he couldn't breathe out and it was horrible to watch this and I was the one who took care of that just about totally as a matter of fact when he would have these attacks I would take him to a pediatrician in Burlington New

18:34Jersey called Dr Ziggler he'd give him a shot of adrenaline and I knew that giving a little kid a shot of adrenaline was not great okay so I would try all kinds of home they they didn't have inhalers back then they had inhalers but that's handling the the symptom not the cause and I I didn't know what to do to handle the Cause right I used to do like one winter he's just in a full-blown attack turning blue it's in a cold Jersey you know cold Jersey winter I took him upstairs to the bathroom took off his clothes took off mine stood in the shower said David I'm not punishing man I'm with you I had the warm water on I turned it off that water is that coming out of there about 34 degrees he started breathing kicked it wiped him down with a Turkish tow that handled it for the moment I used to do like that anything to handle him so now I found out about scientology from this

19:31Nelson Sandy and Frank ogal was the guy I took David down one day and I said is there anything you can do for David with Scientology auditing which is basically another word for counseling right he took David in and 45 minutes later Dave comes out I say hey how's it going he says Dad I'm handled and he never had another severe attack in his entire youth he had how is that possible with communication with communication you can stop asthma you come to the point where you have a realization maybe where it started or how you could be contributing to it or maybe where it starts kicking in how old was he when you brought him in there I guess this was he was about 9 years old wow yeah okay so like what what tools did they use to help him kick asthma that communication what like the just communication like hi what's what's what's going on you got asthma buddy

20:22that's communication like what do you mean by communication okay he did he used what's called creative processing which is something that they used to use and what it is is you figure out how you could be contributing to that and then you do a mental image picture of something that you think you're doing to contribute to that and back and forth it's a little for me to try to explain it in a little session like this it's a little hard because well it's a little hard to understand but it it did work on him so you're saying in a some sense asthma may be psychosomatic and maybe in your head for him it was to that degree yes I am saying he never got asthma again he never had a severe attack again he had M minor attacks he was able to stop them with these he used to get attacked so bad that it would debilitate him I mean he was out of school for a week one time

21:19with an asmatic attack this is before we I ever took him to see Frank ogal MH and um that impressed me the fact that this this handled that for the moment anyway so with that and some other things I decided I'm going to get my whole family and Scientology CU look his whole life that was a problem for me to handle and this at least at that moment got him to the point where he was like in charge of it it didn't happen to him again that severe mhm do that make sense yeah it does make sense yeah so that's what persuaded you to begin quite a bit so everything was good for a while right I got in I'll tell you how good it was I got in and my whole family got in I decided to take my whole family to England and in 1972 I moved there for a year and three months and had the whole family study Scientology in England yeah yeah and then came back for a little while and went over again in

22:201974 uh study more Scientology when I was there that time I got a recording deal with the poor company solo album and I got a writer's contract with Chapel's publishing and I got asked to play on BBC all this is in the book by the way I give you details on so this was all while elron hubard was alive while he was alive yeah did you meet him never met him nope but your son did listen my son joined the sea organization when he was 16 years old within s months he was working with Delon Hub what is this the sea organization is uh explain that to people okay there are several different ways that you could do Scientology the number one way would be is if you're a public person and you just go into an organization they're called orgs you go in and you buy services but you live in the outside world you have a job you have a a home you know all these things but you pay

23:16for a service that's number one another level would be that you worked for an organization and you could sign a 2 and a half year or a 5-year contract to work there and you they have like billion year contracts too well now way you're getting ahead of it that's public that's working for an organization on the level of a two and a half or a fiveyear contract the last step would be the C organization there you sign a billion-year contract in other words you're signing away your future lives to get this Scientology disseminated um has anybody ever challenged one of those billion year contracts like what what does it mean like do do you ow listen you're getting the skinny and as hard as this is to believe once you're in it for a while and you see that this is helping you and maybe your family the point of is that they want to get this disseminated to every man woman

24:17and child on the planet and improve life for everybody so it's like you're on this crusade to get it disseminated so they believe they're doing this to help people yes all sounds good right all sounds good in the beginning well it reads better than it lives it's not that way at all though well well how is it how is it I'll tell you these days right now like sure they get people to donate money to What's called the International Association of scientologists or donate money to build an organiz I mean build a new church someplace and they give you a piece of paper and commend you you know it's a nice business low overhead you know so you give them money they give you paper they give you a Commendation or saying you're this you're some level right you're you've achieved some the thing is look they've opened a lot of new buildings but Joe there's not people

25:08in there there's air okay but they say we're expanding they're expanding their real estate interests but they're not expanding the number of people in Scientology why is that well if you go on the internet you can find out all the abuses they've done like people going bankrupt because they had to contribute so much money they get a second and third mortgage on their house give it to the church they can't afford it they have to declare bankruptcy people being disconnected from their families yeah let's talk about that and I want to go back to the seaorg thing a second but then let's talk about that yeah so the seaorg thing is your son joins the seaorg when he's 16 years old yeah here's what happened I came home from work one day and um he's laying on his in his room on his bed kind of like that with his head in his hands as hey Dave what's up man He says Dad he says I

25:54don't want to go to school anymore he why not he said listen all the kids are taking drugs they just they don't show the teachers any respect they're not willing to learn anything he's I want to I want to join the seor I want to help elron hubt because by this time we've been to England twice he's trained to be an auditor an auditor is a person who applies this technology of Scientology in auditing or counseling okay and he says this is what I want to do well I thought to myself he's 15 he's going to be 16 shortly and that look when I was 17 I joined the Marines my dad had a sign for me because I was only 17 and it probably was one of the best moves I ever made I mean the first night in boot camp I said to myself this is the worst mistake I've ever made in my life at that moment 12 weeks later I said to myself I can make myself do anything and in that 12 weeks it turned

26:54me from an undisciplined civilian into a disciplined marine and and I've utilized that my whole life it's helped me always I kind of looked at that and I thought well I was 17 maybe it looked like I didn't know what the hell I was doing but but I come out a winter and if David wants to do this and what is he going to get out of going to school and he has no desire to do anything else I say okay I'll help you so that was it so when he was 16 the next day we put him on a plane he went down to the Flag Land base in Florida and as I say within I think it was seven or eight months he was working right with Elon H out in California the sea org like is it a boat you're actually on a boat no the sea organization is a term used because in 1967 Ron started what he called the sea project where he bought the the ship and invited people to come with him to contribute to this

27:53project saying that his research could be done better away from Land masses I mean in fact the law was after him you know that oh right it was a tax thing right yeah I mean they were trying to snag them and when you're out out in international waters they can't serve you subpoena but it was such an adventure story and people look look it plus you get to wear a captain's outfit no not everybody he got to right oh yeah Admiral not he did he give himself medals Elon hubard yeah you know I I never saw that all I saw was that he he was considered the Commodore but you remember the Peace Corp yes all right now that was an adventure and people would go on that sure but they actually were doing something though right what was the seaorg doing well the seaorg was on this ship and they'd have people come there for advanced level Services get that and uh they would send missions out to

28:49various organizations to correct any outes in the way maybe they were delivering technology or or fix something that was going wrong it was run like a little uh military organization and then the seaorg went ashore and they established the Flag Land base in Clearwater Florida so that is still referred to as flag yeah when el el harber had the ships that was considered the flagship okay am I filling you in enough in this yeah so he joined that he ascended through the ranks he's working with elron hubber and slowly you guys get disconnected is that what happens no as a matter of fact when he was doing that we were still in very good communication with each other like I'm telling you something we had a lot of great times together when he was growing up there no two ways about it and I can't say that it was like bad relationship in any way there was a guy by the name of Lord

29:50Acton he was a britisher he was a member of parliament he lived from 1834 to the early 1900s he's the one that made the observation power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely and I think this is what happened to David that when elron hubber died he saw a chance to move up and he got people out of the way who didn't want to cooperate with him put people on various posts that would cooperate with him and he took over the ownership and the leadership of Scientology and what contributed to that was an incident where he had a severe asmatic attack and they had to take him to the emergency room of a hospital Paul Grady is a guy that took him there and when Paul picked him up after they did the stuff they handle him he was okay David said to Paul listen I had a great realization when I was there and it's this power is not granted it is assumed so he assumed the leadership of

30:56Scientology and he rose right to the top that's how that happened so how did you get disconnected from him well look there was an event that he had not an event there's something that he did which he'll always be admired for he got actually got the Church of Scientology tax exemption all right he literally got the IRS to Grant the fact that this is a church you have now a tax exemption people contribute to it can you deduct it that was a very very big win that then gave him power okay I decided to join the C organization in 1985 I wanted to contribute to doing whatever I could to help him I joined the C organization and I'm at the Hammet base you know I'm coming out of the music studio because since I was a musician I worked in the music studio and we did films i' composed music for various technical films we had or public relations films and I walked out of the studio one day

31:59and I saw him a little distance off to the left with an Entourage and I yelled out hey Dave and he turned around and he looked at me and I'm telling you Joe he gave me a look that I thought I better never do that again on that base I was then a staff member the fact that I was biologically his father and in fact his father he he referred to me as Ron when he spoke to me when he sent me a gift for my birthday or Christmas or something he always said Dear Dad but that was the beginning now the further on down the road we got the more it became I used to have to call him sir after a while okay it became more and more me Ron miscavage the staff member and David the the leader of the church once they started implementing the rules at the base where you couldn't send a letter out without it being checked where you surrounded with barbwire pointing in and point out you

32:58couldn't talk on a telephone without having somebody listen you couldn't drive off on your own to go to a store to get a pair of underwear you had to order it on the internet if you got on the internet there was a filter on it where anything about miscavage or Scientology come up you'd be blocked so now I'm living a sequestered life waking up in the morning going to breakfast at 9:00 9:30 having a muster you know what A muster is no okay you line up your people and account for everything body all right 12:00 go to lunch 12:30 line up for another mustard go to work in the afternoon 5:00 go to dinner 5:30 go to another mustard and then work the rest of the night or sometimes 9:30 or 10:00 have another mustard that was my life seven days a week except on Saturday you'd work on the grounds to beautify the base doesn't sounding a good time Ron it's a great existence Joe I'm

33:55telling how would you like to live that way it doesn't sound good it wasn't good were you stuck well here's the thing there were enough times when I did things that were good like we would do an album and which matter of fact here's something we didn't I first got in and there was a book that came out called Mission Earth that Elon Hub wrote Edgar W you remember Edgar Winter or no Edgar witer Johnny Winter's brother yes the musician the musician the rock guy yeah okay Edgar came to to the base and we did an album I played on the album with him Edgar wter came to the wow he was a Scientologist he was he probably still is wow one of them's dead right John joh de yeah Johnny's dead but Edgar I mean he was you have no idea how good he is until you see him operating in the studio anyway I played the trumpet parts on the album I played solos and some of the stuff the album

34:49that was what I did and it was great time bust your ass working but that's a good time right Isaac Hayes I used to do gigs with him you know of course you know how ches great guy and those those were fun times there were other things that we did that turned out good but then there's time in between where you're working sometimes days on end with okay a couple days no sleep working your ass off and if you screwed up it was hell to pay what kind of work is being done what what is all the work okay I'll give you an example there's about six major events that are done by the church every year there's the uh in New Year's there's a major event okay MH and then in March uh you have elron hub's birthday and then in may you have diic all right what do you guys what do you guys do for elon's birthday well there would be an event where you would show him in various

35:47aspects of Life improving life in some aspect and we'd have a video on that and we would have to write music for that uh Cy would have to shoot the pictures or take old pictures and produce these edit them we' do music for it and we'd have a product so at an event when David's doing the event they could present this for uh when the the anniversary of dynetics modern science and mental health that was another event okay and then so preparing for events essentially all the time it when you'd end one You' have start the next one in June you have the anniversary of the maiden voyage that was something we did every year and then there's Auditor's day in August all right and then there's the international Association of Scientology event in October so all this time you're just constantly working you're never hanging out with your son you don't you don't have any quality time together sometimes

36:36he would come to the base for two months and wouldn't even give me a phone call look Joe you got to understand I wish the this didn't turn out this way okay just straight up so do you do you feel responsible in any way for bringing him in well everybody deals with life the way they deal with it my other son isn't that way and my daughters aren't that way and is your other son Scientology as well he's out of Scientology now he qu did he quit with you he quit earlier than me and what about your daughters they're in they're in yes and you disconnected from them they're disconnected from me right you're not allowed to they they're not allowed to talk to you well here's what happens though if they were to talk to me their friends would disconnect from them if you have a job with a Scientology employer and they found out that you talked to me you'd get fired that

37:25day it's Insidious it's spreads out the penalty for talking to what's called a suppressive person which would be me like a real life prick as an example when I was 70 years old David and my two daughters bought me a car okay a car when I was 75 years old my daughter sent me 75 gifts now I left now I'm the worst father who's ever lived I'm a slime ball they character assassinate me on their hate sites mhm they would give a c to somebody who was that bad oh we made a mistake he really was a prick all along it doesn't make sense so if you're trying to make sense out of it it doesn't make sense but this is built into the policy of Scientology anybody who leaves could be and says anything about the church could be considered to be a suppressive person and was this always the case or has this been exacerbated well elron harbard wrote the policies while he was alive he also

38:24wrote more fiction than anybody that's ever lived yeah does everybody know that inside the church uh they probably do yeah but didn't they does anybody make that connection no no the guy wrote more fake than any person that's ever walked the face of the Earth but he also had the time to talk to the aliens to get all this data yeah to write this real stuff that is just that is a that's that's a suspension of disbelief that that yeah defies logic well as I said defies defies understanding I should say as I said earlier just need to get to a higher OTC what is it is that it OT levels Ot Ot level operating F levels okay but you got to understand most people who do it don't have rocks in their head they're not nuts they're not stupid people no I've talked I had a neighbor who's a Scientologist a very nice guy yeah and he sort of fit that bill that I was talking about ear the water he fit that

39:27bill that I was talking about earlier where he's a guy that's always improving himself he's healthy exercised he well kept he was a nice neighbor he's a good guy and uh you know I was like all right I I I sort of looked into Scientology after I became friends with him you know I mean I got the book early on like I said but I never really did anything other than read the book I never looked into this is before the internet you know the internet sort of exposed all stuff that was the end of it yeah that literally is the end of Scientology and how much has it dropped off since then well it's been estimated by people who would know that there's maybe 20,000 scientologists right now what was it at its peak I think it was in the early 90s about 100,000 wow yeah 20,000 that's like a a good Louis CK concert well the thing is most people like at that International base are people who have been

40:27around for 25 30 35 40 years right and you think okay how could you live this way look most people are not going to do what I do I was 76 when I 76 years old when I left okay and you were 75 when they gave you 75 gifts so you're like this is not enough I got to get the out of here I need no you mean not enough gifts I should have gotten 76 right yeah listen I I was DEC well actually I'll tell you something that happened and I brought this just to show you and you have a little what is that Kindle okay are you allowed to have those in there no really you can't have a Kindle and I didn't know why I didn't know why what happened is this David gave me this Kindle and he like sh and the security guards were doing their nut trying to get it away from me but they wouldn't come in strong Army because David is the man so David gave it to you and the security guards are trying to

41:27take away from you why okay I didn't know did you tell him it was loaded up with elron hubard books it was it was his fiction books that he put in there for me Battlefield Earth no not Battlefield Earth nor Mission Earth but the other earlier fiction was on here okay which I I thought was pretty interesting but anyway they're trying to get this say Hey you man Dave gave me this this is mine you know okay Ron they'd back off now one day I'm reading something and there's a feature on here here where you see this is the camera on that now yeah okay you see this little switch here mhm that goes this way this way up down okay and in so if you got a word that you'd like to look up and get the meaning of you'd go to the library or not the library the dictionary and you'd select the word and press it to the right and it would say search store I accidentally held it a

42:28little bit too long and it went right past search door to Google I was on the internet with no filter with your Kindle with my Kindle and what the is this you didn't even know about the Google back then I knew about the Google but there was filter on all their uh computers go through it with that there's no filter on this and that's why the security guards were trying to get it but they wouldn't tell me that obviously they're not going to say well there's no filter so you can get on the internet I mean these guys weren't that Swift they weren't the sharpest knives in the drawer but but how did they know then how' they know about that feature they're the ones who if you get a computer you give it to them they put a filter on it and then they give it back to you okay so they just never so they got some techno Geeks I knew how to do that but they had never done that

43:17to the Kindle but they wanted to oh they wanted to take it away from me straight googleing stuff with your Kindle I looked at Google Now this first time I told the story by the way Joe this is an exclusive you know oh I'm was excited yeah well I'll tell you one of the things I looked that was like Elon hub's War record he was not a hero he didn't have two purple hearts he a madeup story yeah and there was a girl named Annie Tidman who was with elron herard when he died Annie Tidman was a a messenger with Elon Hub since she was a little girl and she was with him when he actually died so Annie was a long-term loyal Scientologist she's at the base where I lived in hamt and she got lung cancer so they sent her to Los Angeles to get care and they sent a girl down to be like a personal servant to take care of her needs so she'd be okay so occasionally I would say to Martin who

44:22was the medical liaison officer in other words she took care of our health and she'd go to the doctors and stuff I said Martin how's Annie doing oh Ronnie she's doing great yeah okay good I'm on a Kindle she died 6 months earlier never told anybody on the base now we're living in these apartments on the base this is several days later and uh there was a building called a laundry room where you took your clothes to get cleaned and pressed you picked up sheets little amenities like that and there's two girls outside the laundry room and and they said Ronnie would you want to chip in for a birthday present for Annie I said n I'm going to pass on it now I thought Jesus Christ they either know and they're keeping up the rots or they don't know and they're being used as what Shields Shields to make sure make sure people think she's still alive right well that was a major thing for me

45:21I then started to think I got to get out of here mind you I thought earlier things were starting to go south and we would have I give you an example here's what happened we're on the ship and we're playing for a show at one of these Maiden voyages uh anniversary things and we have a guy there who's uh he's not a rap artist but he's like a Beat Box you know you know he can use his voice like that you know so now Doug's up there and then he starts saying you know he says I'll tell you my kid was picked up by the cops the other day but he's not really a bad kid you know he's hanging out with the wrong guys and blah blah blah and he's all saying this that you don't say to this exclusive audience David hears that to handle this me and the rest of the band were sent to work in the bges on the ship because he up we paid the price what I should have done was kicked

46:22in the band because I was directing the band kicked in the band and start playing the music and drown them out you go in a builds the temperature down there is between 125 and 130 degrees I'm in my 60s doesn't matter like that would go on so when things like that would happen I thought man we can't live this way but my wife Becky she is an eternal optimist she would always say Ron it's going to get better it can't keep on going this way and I'd say Becky listen if you see a boulder rolling down a mountain that Boulder is not going to stop and start rolling up it's going to get worse if things are going bad they have a tendency to continue going bad it's just fantastic to me that you found out all this information on Google yeah and that you were shielded from all this stuff yeah that's that's the craziest part and you you were 75 at the time somewhere in that range I was in my

47:1970s in that time I think it was two years later that we actually escaped so how did you escape well first of all um I used to run the music department and when I say run it you know I'd make sure we did all the jobs we're supposed to do and I would compose music I worked with a guy by name of Peter schles and uh we we had some nice that we did together so at this point you'd been in for how many years 40 years no no in the sea organization over 20 some years 20 something years in the sea organization and all in all Scientology much more than that yeah well I was in Scientology for 42 2 years this is this is your only source of income yeah it's 50 well to begin with when I got in we got 30 bucks a week and then generous what's that generous well it went up to it went up to 50 big when you got paid when you got paid when you paid sometimes you go for months without

48:17getting paid at all now the downside of that is you ain't paying much into Social Security so if you leave like some of these people leave they got for Social Security they may have no no place to go no marketable skill uh no car what are they going to do right so you know people say stay they stay they gut it out and that's in the position that you were in what what made you decide okay well just the Google information no no it was the treatment the way people were being treated and some of the that went down like so you would you've been okay if they treated you well and you still found out that woman had been dead for 6 months and El Ron harbard wasn't really a warrior no but I'll tell you why if they had been actually disseminating this information and people on this planet were doing better and life was becoming better for large numbers of people I don't know if I

49:12still might be there in other words if you could doy was really being effective and doing what you thought it was supposed to do precisely which is help Humanity precisely do you think that at the core that its potential to help humanity is still there you think that like like you were saying that the beginning stages of Scientology are beneficial and there is something like if they got all these beneficial things yeah and just offered those the odds of that happening the odds now I'm talking about would be the same odds as me turning into a penguin right now it's not likely to happen not so likely not not very likely maybe you know and your son he's going to be running it forever does he there's absolutely nobody's going to take over is it election like how it work no election he he runs it and that's the end of it he surrounded by people I guess you'd call

50:06them psychop or sycophants that siant yeah who just pump him up all the time and if he says you know I would like to have such and such maybe he might want a different car they'll go out and get it from what are those people like what are the people like that that surround him that enable him to maintain this power they feel that he is a power source and they support him a power source because he's the he runs the organization well yeah because he got his tax exemption uh he'll do things he's tough uh he's he's actually David is a very smart guy if it weren't for this streak in him where he attained all this power and had this going on in Scientology who who knows I think he could have been successful at anything well I believe that as well I think anybody who gets to I mean it's really unfortunate but anybody gets to any even the position of being like a

50:57drug kingpin like Pablo Escobar I'm sure he could have been successful at other things had he decided to focus his his mind in that direction you're exactly right and that's how I feel so you feel like your son just up in getting on a path that is in your eyes illegitimate versus you know him being a CEO of IBM or something like that you could say that you could say that and I'll tell you I think you'd be you would be correct not I think you would be does have you ever talk to him about scientology you you don't bring it up you you don't bring it up no I mean look take anybody with that much power do you think you can sit down and say now look what I think is what the are you talking to me about I'm running this show you know yeah but if it's your dad I I would think you would just I didn't have that line with them I'm telling you no listen if you're a Scientologist and you're at that

51:49level you are of the belief that no spiritual being is another spiritual being's mother or father or daughter or sister you happen to be occupying a body that maybe was given to you by another person but in your heart you're actually an independent thinking life unit an immortal one to boot okay right okay but let me ask you this do people really believe that or do they just kind of go along with it because everybody else is going along with it is it does there is there ever a time where you're alone with somebody else in the sea org maybe you're uh setting up some video or something like that and someone goes hey man is this on the up and up very seldom very seldom but what tell you why though I'll tell you why the walls have yours no no well you're telling this to somebody they might write a knowledge report on you a knowledge report now you're in deep

52:45okay Jamie I'm writing a knowledge report soon as we leave here okay listen Okay you might laugh but boy when it's happened it's serious sure listen I'm sure and if if it's found out later that he said this to you and you didn't write a knowledge report you are as culpable as he is for saying that and what happens to you somebody writes an knowy you're going for interrogation oh what do they do they talk to you sit you down in a meter tell you what are your crimes what what what evil purpose do you have toward David what evil purpose do you have toward elron hubard what thoughts have you had about leaving what thoughts have you had about destroying the organization anything of a harmful nature what did you say man this place would do they kick you out no so how does that work what if what if you get there what if someone writes a knowledge report and you go you know what man I've been

53:34thinking I got on Google I started reading a bunch of stuff I think it's all I don't even want to be here anymore man and all this working for 50 bucks a week this is stupid I don't want to do this anymore why are we all doing this why don't we just take the beginning parts of this and just get rid of all the stupid about you know separating from your children and make this thing better what do you say what would they do to you well first of all you wouldn't dare do that if you were at a place like I was at the international base okay which is golden air Productions in Hammond California why what would they do to you they'd seize you and then what happens and you'd be sequestered from the rest of the group put into a place where you weren't associating with the rest of the group you'd go to lunch at a different time you'd have a security guard watching you morning afternoon and night

54:21and you can never leave so that's right some what if you like what if what if you say I just want to go home I want to get out of here I want to go get an apartment somewhere can't do it man you just can't do it be kept it physically keep you it physically like hold phally hold you put put you in ja and if the church well I'm sure they're going to heard this but they're going to say oh Ron could have left anytime he could that's that's complete if I would have been caught what I was trying to leave which I'm going to get into I didn't forget we were talking about that if I would have been caught they would have taken me and Becky taken the keys to my car I would have been sequestered from her she'd been sequestered from me we would have both been security checked sit down with the hands on an e- meter which I'm sure you know what is yeah I did one of those

55:04once okay I don't really think it works you don't think it works no sometimes it does okay but that's not the point you'd sit down with that and be interrogated and then you'd work maybe four or five hours away at some manual labor and when you weren't doing that you'd be back on the on the cans again as they say what if you don't work what if you're like you I don't want to work yeah like a difficult bastard right yeah like what's ever happened what's has anybody ever rebelled I mean it's human nature to rebel against Authority yeah but a certain amount of human nature to to to come but but when you're up at a place where you have three or 400 people who feel differently you're not that brave but does anybody ever have the gumption or the notion to go hey what the are we doing does that ever happen okay maybe well no what they do is they escape like I did that's it yeah they

55:56don't speak up they speak they know what they're in for right they know what they're in for who the here there was a guy named Alex he wanted to Route out it took them four years to Route out route out that's what they call it when you that's the proper way to leave where you sit down and you do this routing for it's basically security checking you till you're you know for years so once you say if you sign a five-year contract would you said there's is that a fiveyear contract you would be at an outer org there you just walk out of the place and people do that an outer org but you can't do that at the sea org well not at you you could in Los Angeles but at the international base you're living on a compound MH you're surrounded with barbwire pointing in and pointing out you're not going to jump that fence you'll really screw yourself understand but if you say uh say if you

56:48sign a 5-year contract when the fifth Year's up you get to leave yeah okay they're going to try to get you to re reinlist okay uh but if you're at let's say you're working at one of the organizations in La okay okay you can walk out in the street and say hey see you later what are they going to do because you're you're in the Free World you're in the Free World you're not in the Free World at the international base understand all right so you had to plot some sort of an out so you had to think about it and then you had to work with the wife and you guys had to like Hush Hush right and you asked me what led to that well there's one major thing that led to it and that was this we got a new music director I didn't want to have the post anymore I was getting old and got this young guy and I would write Melodies all day all week months every Melody I ever wrote was rejected by him

57:41and other words everything I was doing was a piece of but I couldn't quit so this new guy was not fun to work with terrible it was terrible I was listen I was the only one who had gone a recording contract on my own steam nobody gave it to me I didn't have a rich daddy or something a contract with Chapel's publishing for my writing and asked to play on the BBC nobody had achieved that in that department now maybe my skills weren't up to how they write modern music and I used to beg him I said listen what do you want as an acceptable particle I'm a trained musician uh let me give me some ideas what you want and I'll start writing that you learn it just like I did this is how I was treated well it does doesn't sound like a fun time so you couldn't talk to your son and say Hey kid listen this new guy sucks wait a minute I did that I called him and I didn't call him I wrote

58:35to him I said Dave you got to get together with me right so we got together I said look I'm working all day long and nothing I'm doing is being approved you got to get me a different job I says I don't care if you get me a job waxing cars in motorpool but I want to do something so at the end of the day you can say here's what he did okay you know right I get it he says I'll look into it he never looked looked into it a couple months later I said to Becky look we're getting the out of here then we started planning so what was your plan as far as like getting a job cuz you had been working there for 25 years well I'm a I'm a good musician I'm not just a punk I mean I play quite a bit of jobs in Milwaukee so you had skills I have skills oh yeah I'm a good salesman too you know um I also here's how I look okay I'm 76 years old I want to spend the my rest of my

59:27life suffering out every day this I'm getting the I'm getting out of here okay got it and Becky finally says Okay and she saw the writing on the wall that it wasn't going to get better right so now we don't want to leave and leave everything behind because what little possessions we had was what we had all right so we started my by the way I mentioned a little earlier that my daughter sent me 75 GS gifts on 75th birthday right yeah Becky came up with the idea my mother is going to celebrate by the way my wife's younger than me my first wife I divorced from and married a much younger woman so her mother is going to have her 70th birthday so we decide to send her mother 70 gifts now in order to do this it has to go through the security guards so we would send her like a detailing kit for a car I mean her chances of detailing a car as a gift were nil to none but they saw

60:30that okay we're sending her 70 gifts so it got through them we sent him sent her our Li elron hubard library books that we had some other things and we got a lot of stuff out of there that I couldn't fit in the car when we were going ah you see what I'm saying smart and then after all was said and done when we got everything out of there we plotted it out and I did this on Sunday mornings on Sunday mornings you had breakfast at 9:00 now we lived on the southern side of the base and we lived in rooms you couldn't have a refrigerator you couldn't have a coffee maker there but across the street on the North side I worked in the studio there was a refrigerator there and I used to keep like Italian salami maybe superat uh some Parmesan cheese Romano cheese so early Sunday morning at 9:00 and I plan this out because there's two gates there's one main gate where

61:29there's a security guard sitting in a booth and then down the road about 200 yards there's another gate where there's a little camera and they see you coming and they got used to me going across to the north side to go to the studio and I'd come back through the main gate and bring the security guards a piece of cheese or salami so they thought hey Sunday morning he's going to get his goodies in other words I'm feeding the Watch Dogs this is setup right right so comes the day we're going to leave March 25th 2012 we get up real early and I had a little notebook I must have checked it 20 times what I wanted to take what I wanted to leave behind like the night before and by the way my biggest cover on being able to get out of there was the fact that I was 76 years old and I was the father of the chairman of the board nobody would suspect that I was going to leave unauthorized Le all right

62:24okay so I'm out with a mesh bag full of shoes putting in the car and one of the security guards come by on his bicycle an Italian guy s hey Ronnie how you doing ah good you know he sees me putting this in but he justifies it in his mind oh he's putting stuff in his car right doesn't think twice why I'm doing it of course another guy's coming by an oldtime Scientologist I have a bag of clothes I'm putting in the car Ronnie how's it going good deal Norm yeah all right you know put it in the car so we got through all that okay so now Sunday morning 9:00 we get in the car we're loaded up and we're driving down to get to that second gate is about a half mile down the road we go there and I'm going past our mes Hall where we would eat and this is called Masco Canyon Inn or MCI it's where the crew would eat their meals and I see the Chase car like on Sunday

63:20morning there's only two security guards on duty one is in the main booth and the under the other one is in a car so he can Rove and it's called The Chase car okay so the Chase car is parked outside of the mes Hall I knew s was in there so I go around another 100 yards down the road get to the gate and by the way at this point my heart is in my throat all right because if you when I hit that buzzer if Jurgen would have said come up to the boot that was it I was okay hit the buzzer didn't say anything the gate opens I pulled out of the gate is Becky were turning left so I turned left jammed the throttle and I knew I had to make it down to his there's three roads one goes to Route 60 uhhuh Straight Ahead rather the other one goes to Route 10 and if I turn left I go in the hammock I Knew by the time I'm going down the road and he would be on trying to get me on the next H run what the

64:18hell are you doing then he'd called sh sh get up to the booth Pronto I know sh would have to run out get in the car I'd already be at the those Crossroads or the three roads so I knew when s came he'd either turn right or go straight ahead I turned left went in the Hammet we hit The Boondocks and I was free wow so what did you do then we drove to Wisconsin did you have money on you yeah I had money on me and I paid for every I paid for everything cash Joe you're only getting 50 bucks a week how long did you save money well I was also getting Social Security so I would salt that away all right very low amount by the way CU right CU you weren making much money yeah yeah it's just right but anyway I paid for gas with cash we ate for cash we stayed in the motel two nights it paid cash cuz you couldn't use your credit cards CU they'd be able to track you exactly so when you finally

65:08surfaced how'd you surface I went to her mother's place and then what happens then does did they try to get you how does that work well here's what happens no believe me do they try to bring you back you look R big misunderstanding oh here's how it went about two weeks later we're sitting in her mother's house and it's a split level where there's an upstairs and downstairs in the kitchen the window was almost level with the ground you know how split level goes and I'm looking out the window we're having breakfast coffee and I see this girl outside marrying and I thought okay they found me so I went through the garage outside and there's Greg wool hair and he says Ah Ronnie I guess you're surprised it took us so long to get here hahaa we thought you're going to go to Lor place we never thought you'd come here ha like nothing happened you know right so he says okay

66:01so uh I says Greg listen you just wasting your time I'm not going back and he says Ron I says hey I don't want to live that life man it was a terrible life I'm not doing it again he says You Blue that's a term they use if you leave without authorization and he pulled out this policy it's called leaving and leaves and what it says leaving in leaves leaving and and leaves that's the name of it and what it says in there substantially is this the only reason a person leaves a group is because they have committed harmful acts against the group and they want to remove themsel so they don't keep on committing harmful acts against the group how convenient no you can't just leave because you want to leave you have to be a fact that you know you're working maybe 12 14 16 hours a day sometimes not going to sleep for 3 days that raise to 50 bucks a week I shouldn't have done it it's a nice

67:00raise so you you what do you do then when they when you say you're not going back well they try to convince me and it got to the point it says guys you're wasting your time I am not going back and I went in town and I saw him a couple times and they says come on we'll take you out to a nice place to eat we'll take you to a movie like they're going to smoo me into going back to live that life Greg says to me Ronnie look you can go to flag you'll have your own apartment you have a kitchen we know you like to cook and then you can train some of the guys at a cell you can play with the band down there said Greg you're out of your mind you get me down there it's going to be the same thing no it won't Ronnie it went on so do you think they were just trying to you like when not I think absolutely so if you got there there'd be no apartment they'd punish you right out of knowledge

67:48report you can't do this yeah why do they want you to stay why do they give a if you leave that's what I would be what they Ed to be a sensitive particle like these guys that were following particle well here's what I mean by that like Dwayne Powell and Daniel pow well I was a father of the chairman of the board right that's a blight I mean did you ever talk to your son after this I tried to call him once I tried to call him after I found out the pis were following me and after I heard that he got on the phone and said if he dies let him die don't intervene don't do anything this is what you heard right you heard you can hear it you Tony Orga yeah absolutely Tony Ortega underground bunker and you can hear these interviews okay okay there is public as you're going to get but you don't hear his actual words no okay so no reason that this guy would make up

68:40that story because people do make things up right well okay let's put it this way I'm just playing Devil's Advocate you can play Devil's Advocate the father was interrogated the begin with he told the same story The Son com in later didn't have a chance to talk to his father told the same story okay um so you haven't had a chance to talk to your son I called and uh an attorney got in the phone and said Ron David won't talk to you he doesn't feel he could trust you now let me let me ask you this yeah as a father because I'm a father and you're a father the idea of being estranged from your kids in that way where your kid hates you and your kid doesn't want anybody to save you if you die do you feel any remorse do you feel like in any way you up do you ever look at your life and go how did I how did I lose my connection with my son listen it's written in

69:38policy to do what David did there's a policy that says listen somebody who understand that entirely but I'm talking about as a human being as a human being as a human being I thought it was terrible because we had a good life together but do you feel any responsibility do you feel like there's anything you could have done differently do you yeah not get him in Scientology that's it so you feel like once he got into Scientology it's not your fault he lives his life he's the one who got the power to do all these things I understand but you raised him right I mean whatever connection and bond that you developed with him we had a great life together when you that didn't carry forth in some way you know what I'm saying I mean obviously I'm not in Scientology and obviously I was not in your situation but I can't imagine that you must you you must have gone over it

70:25and looked at your Communications with him and wondered if maybe if you extended yourself more if you talked more if some is there something you could have done that would have prevented any of this Joe you're dreaming I I don't mind telling you that okay I'm doing it with all respect okay because you're you're uh you do good interviews I've seen you do other interviews and I I i' I'm happy you got me on the show no I couldn't have done anything different except maybe not get him in Scientology so you feel like listen there's policy that elron Hub wrote and David loved elron Hub and he applies the policy does David believe all that stuff does he believe he's got to there's a policy called fair game are you familiar with that no what's that fair game if somebody uh goes against the church or talks out against the church and they're declared a suppressive person uhhuh he

71:18can be lied to tricked to and destroyed with no punishment on the person who did it but that's not what I mean what I mean is the the really crazy stuff like the the stuff that sounds like science fiction about like the thetans and dropping them in a volcano and the hydrogen bomb and all that stuff does does everybody believe that stuff I think a lot of people do believe it is it discussed no you don't discuss that no one discusses it no one discuss it so but no let's get thing get back to what's pertinent to this and that's the policy how to operate as a group that one the fair game policy is written and by the way just to satisfy you I'll send you soft copies if you can give your email okay it's okay okay here's another one uh if a person does this find or manufacture data about the person okay so once you've become their enemy Ru you left them you're you know

72:14you're the the dad of the chairman of the board you're a sensitive particle you got a real problem that's right okay so you said they took out a bunch of different website addresses like not not a bunch 500 in other words they got 500 iterations of my name variations so no matter what you put in and by the way I have a website which I did just did and it's called the real Ron miscavage do.com okay and you could see my website but if you put any other thing in there you're going to get a hate site that tells you things about me that you think I was the worst person who ever lived did you write this book did what was the what was the motivation did you want to make money absolutely not I wanted to help but you did make money right you made some money yeah but that isn't the reason of writing a book The reason to write it the only reason I'd write a book well not

73:05me the hundreds of families that are disconnected from their kids understand and listen I knew if I and by the way what led me to write it was not even him saying if he dies let him die I then took a CD with these uh interrogations on of Daniel Powell and dve and in Dwayne Po and my wife and I drove down to Florida to see my daughters and I was going to play these for them because now they're disconnected from me so I went to my daughter's daughter Lor's Place she's not home I went to Denise's Place her husband Jerry answered the door answer the door about that far and he's talking to me I said Jerry I'd like to speak to Denise well you can't cuz she's not here I said well look where is she cuz I got to get in communication with her he says no you have to go to the church and handle it with the church I said Jerry for Christ sake and Jerry's in as well everybody are if your wife's

73:59in you have to be in is that how it works it basically is you you so he said no you got to handle with them and I said it's a waste of time so I'm talking to him for about 20 minutes and I finally said Jerry what's up what does this mean he's well I'll tell you what Denise and I are through with you and Becky forever that was it you know you I'm going to do a book and I'm going to expose what you do to people because if if I did a Blog who am I I'm going to get maybe a couple thousand people to look at this blog but a book I knew that I could get and I was on 2020 I was on a Megan Kelly show I was on a late night night with Seth Myers so we got a lot of exposure a lot of books a lot of people are seeing what they did and I'm just hoping enough people do this so they're going to drop that disconnection policy because that's a killer so do you think if they drop the

74:52disconnection policy Maybe a lot of the other policies would be more tolerable I think if they dropped the disconnection policy and allowed you to talk to your family listen if they wanted to do Scientology and I could still talk to them I wouldn't give a I'd say fine do what you want to do look but wouldn't it bother you that they can't leave no they're public cuz they're not in the seaorg they're not in the seaorg okay but you can't really leave if you're public like was uh Leah Remy in the seaorg no she's a public ologist right but when she when she left she she took her whole family with her right so they didn't get a chance to you know pick them out and say look at you got to you got to disconnect from Leah that is like one of the things that is like the Hallmark operation of problematic organizations right they separate separate you from your family I

75:46think it's terrible I think it's the worst thing you can do to a person look at I'm not 45 years anymore okay I'm 81 years old in Jan AR I would like to see my family I would like to have some we got pictures of my great grandchildren on their Facebooks I've never met these kids I don't even know what their names are son of a I mean and you feel like that your kids are going to be in there forever yeah and they've never expressed any dissatisfaction well when I was in the seaorg I was not around them we only would only communicate through letters or they would send each other gifts mhm M on birthdays or Christmas or something I couldn't get leaves to see them at one point my daughter Lori went to see David and said listen if Dad can't come to see us we would like to go to see him so he exceeded just imagine she had to ask him if it's okay to come and see me and

76:44they came to Celebrity Center and we sent spent about four days together and just having a good time meat cooking just enjoying their company it just the whole scene is is really bad it's just not okay and it's the way it's set up it's built into the DNA as to how to control people and you have a threat you have extortion you have leverage and that's what that is that is why I wrote the book when you look back on your life joining this in the 1970s 1970 1970 when you look back in your life and you uh you think about that move that initial move of joining what goes on in your head I don't think about it because there's nothing I can do about it but I can tell you this I wouldn't have done it in other words if I knew then what I knew now of course i' say Hey you know you man I'm not doing this right what do you think I'm nuts did new people join all the

77:42time I can't imagine there's very many new people joining right now you know unless they're a Shepherd or somebody like that or somebody who's never looked at the internet you can't possibly and this is what people do they check something out they'll Google it that's very common and you start looking at think oh do I want to get involved in this you know by the way in the book I give references to books that were written in the late 1800s early 1900s the new thought movement and there's many many many datums about life that if you were a Scientologist and you see these wait a minute elron H used to say this all right talking about the reactive mind you remember that from dynetics William Atkinson um and the other guys they talk about his subconscious mind it records 24 hours a day they're talking about the same thing he was well Lawrence Wright talked about that and going clear he

78:41said that it seems like at least some of what was going on was elron hubber trying to self-medicate that he was writing things to try to cure his own ills probably yeah but these people I mean you can go on the internet and get these book for 99 cents because it's past 75 years you can't you can't copyright them right and of course you wouldn't know if you weren't a Scientologist you wouldn't know which parts that he took out of that but I've run across many many things in the books that he just lifted almost copied and pasted it and put it into what he called Scientology yeah well I mean if he's trying to get a great collection of work on how to work the mind how the mind works and it worked then so you knew it would work now and so there is something to some of some of the principles that's what you always said not a question about it and you think to this day that if you could

79:38remove a lot of it if you could filter it down to those things that are provably workable do you think it's savable do you think like like let's say this what if you know your son listens to this podcast and he's like what the this like this world who knows this life is not going to last forever what am I doing I can't even talk to my dad what maybe I've maybe I've lost my way maybe I get together with him we try to figure this out yeah and he says what can we do to make this better I know I'm I'm talking crazy I know I'm talking crazy that's okay what the hell you know let's just as an exercise what would you do if he said let's talk it out I'd talk to him I'll talk to anybody if he said listen no new people are joining Scientology we got a real problem what do you think is the beneficial aspects of it that we should keep and what should we get rid of and I

80:34think he would come up with the things that I come up with also and so you have wrote about those in this book I tell about four points that you could do and you could Salvage it but the the chances of that happening are just so remote I I wouldn't bet two cents on it well not even trying to bet on it but do you think that that is just what happens with people they get into these positions you create an ideology or you it's the power it's the acquisition of power and then in order to keep that power because I think power is almost like a drug that's almost like crack cocaine you get hooked on it you don't want to let go of it right and now you have things going to hell around you you're going to do anything you can perceive to be beneficial to keep it going and start implementing that and like buying new buildings and just making them into these palaces for

81:25people to come and do services and then you drive by them and there's nobody in them just nobody in them where are they getting all the money to buy these buildings people donate it but there's only 20,000 people yeah but you have whales man there are people a whale call them well I'm calling them a whale and as a matter of fact that's like a gambling term it is it's somebody who goes to Las Vegas and they got a lot of dope and they blow it all they get crazy come on seven right that's a whale yeah okay well you have people in there and I feel no need to mention their names I'll I'll tell you off the air but I I don't want to throw them but there's a lot of very wealthy people and they donate a ton of ton of cash one guy had a a medical procedure he sold for something like two 2.4 billion dollar who knows you probably gave about 50 or $60 million to the

82:15church and the church what does he get for that do they take him around one of those things like one of those old school King things no what are those things called they carry you around one those carts get a bunch of dudes they hold the poles yeah do you remember uh that' be dope history of the World Part One mine con was on it yeah one of those what are those things called they carry around I don't know but I'll I'll check it out and I'll I'll send you an email you know but anyway Jam you look it up look no they get a huge trophy okay oh you get a trophy for like six feet tall and you go on the stage and get your picture taken with David and he congratulates you what about those like big uh dinner plate gold medals that is it called a litter wow like how weird a litter is a class of wheeless vehicles a type of human power transport a simple litter often called a king carrier

83:07consists of a sling attached along to lengths of poles are stretched inside a frame huh interesting now it's called a litter I would have never guessed a litter I wouldn't have either how weird like what is a Tom Cru have to get to get one of those giant ass gold medals it's bigger than the Olympics oh the medal of valor oh well that's a different situation let me tell you something tell me tell me something when when you're a celebrity of his stature there's no rules no rules no you're you're what about a celebrity of my stature like a minor league celebrity what kind of what kind of sweet could I get you'd be pampered oo you'd be pampered yeah like good seats at a restaurant or something like that well good seats at an event look at that juicy gold medal that's beautiful yeah I might join just to get a nice medal stand in front of that big Globe H

83:56and I tell you that set is put together that takes a lot of work I bet look at that handsome bastard perfect cheeks good nose structure guy's 55 years old he looks great yeah what's he what how they keeping him alive he looks great like he's one of those guys that doesn't look like he's aging I know no he he probably works out well I'm sure he works out he's got to work out when when I uh great actor right admit to that right The Edge of Tomorrow did you ever see that science fiction movie great movie that's what it's called right The Edge of Tomorrow the one when he keeps coming back to life again yeah Live Die Repeat the that's a great movie that I think he's so wacky that a lot of his movies they don't get the credit they deserve yeah you know what I mean cuz he's so wacky people like oh this well no he's he's a draw and people enjoy watching him act I mean

84:43there's no two ways about it that's not what I'm saying what I'm saying is I think that people don't respect the movie as much like people that are real connoisseurs of film that's a fantastic science fiction movie and what's it called the edge of it's good three years ago maybe four something like that wow it's a great movie man but I feel like if someone with no controversy attached to them was the star of that movie it would have been critically acclaimed it's it's an amazing film it doesn't have any holes in it it's really good well I tell you there's controversy attached to him isn't there there's a little bit Yeah if you said there wasn't you'd be glib don't be glib well I know he works out when he he got a house in um Beverly Hills I put the gym in I I got the equipment for the gym in that house and uh well he's a winner I mean he's just a winner and he

85:33attributes a lot of those winning attitudes to Scientology yeah I mean a lot of his uh his focus and the way he looks at things that's what I always think of when I or used to think of before I started researching it finding all the wacky stuff but before I knew what Scientology was I thought of it as being like uh I thought of Dianetics right I thought was sort of like Anthony Robins unlimited power like this is like a guideline for getting your together and and that's what I've always wanted to do my whole life I've always feel like ah I wish I was more disciplined I wish I got my together more maybe I need to read more books and so I'd read Anthony Robbins and I read Dianetics I thought they were kind of the same thing back in the day well Anthony Robbins did steal some things from Scientology there's no two ways about it no and um there's also another thing called EST yes I've heard

86:22of that that used some of was in that right now now is that is that a cult too it is but I mean they're a little bit more U look I don't know too I don't know too much about it but I know that there are some people who've done it who felt they had a lot of good wins out of it okay well that's the thing right like when you look at a guy like Tom Cruz it's kind of undeniable that that guy is very successful very driven motivated right yeah but don't forget it wasn't just Scientology that did that for him I mean heal he has a talented individual I remember the first one he did about he was a kid at the Valley Forge Military Academy I forget what it's called now yeah Taps Taps yeah and when I saw that I thought man I like this guy that Pony Boy movie too right what the was that called Outsiders yeah he's in that too he great actor yeah and he he did one with Paul Newman where he was a pool

87:08shark remember that color money one of my favorite movies no I mean there's no two ways about it and individually I mean I met him many times he's a nice guy so what is does he have any knowledge of all this stuff when he sees all this disconnection and if he's a nice why doesn't he step in and go hey Dave we got to cut this listen I can't imagine that he doesn't know about it I can't imagine that and so he just like a guy like you separated from your family it's beyond his control it's with lrh want he would never do anything to go against Dave why is that he considers David to be the top spiritual being on this planet look at they're saluting each other yep that's Jesus that's at the event at the are they in the military pardon me are they in the military are are they yeah no this is so why are they saluting each other just curious the going on there when I see you in the morning I

88:01want to we're saluting from now on we're going to salute each other it if he could do it yeah how does that work could anybody salute anybody or is that rude is it like cultural appropriation it's like a person walking around with a Pocahontas outfit on people get mad at you no anybody can salute another person you you might see somebody going off from the plane and say hey have a good trip yeah but you would do it like in almost in cheek a justest hey you animal I love you okay so the the C organization is a military type organization and you would salute people in the in the military it's just non-ironic saluting outside of the military just seems awful odd yeah and yeah well there's a lot of things odd about it but for whatever reason it's it's kept on going and well I think that's one of the reasons why that man right there Tom Cruz oh yeah people look

88:51at him and go this guy's in it he's a winner well now here's what Elon hubt said that if you we should get celebrities in because they are opinion leaders and what do you do with an opinion leader you want to be like that person right and if an opinion leader is a Scientologist well I'm going to try this out I'm gonna try out Scientology what's John jolta like very nice guy seems like a nice guy met he a nice guy he's literally a nice guy and uh so there's something those guys are getting out of it yeah John trol and Cur the alley and people like that they get they get auditing and they get pampered and they don't have to follow Money Rules so for them it's almost like they're a part of like a gang or something you're in a click you're in a click okay you're in a click everybody kisses your ass it's nice nobody wants to piss you off if you get pissed off

89:41like Leah well with Leah she saw go on and shell was not there with David when he were at Tom Cruz's wedding and she said to Tommy Davis where is Shelly and Tommy Davis says listen you don't have the rank to ask that question oh you got to get a higher rank I thought a figure of speech that was a figure of speech okay if he would have said look it shell is off doing a correction program that's why she's not here Leah might still be in s intelly oh so a correction program is Shelly up that's right and and everybody in Scientology knows sometimes seor member isn't SE if you say well doing a doing a correction program they'd go oh okay and that would be it so they the mistake was they disrespected Leah and she's she's very fiery not a little bit really fiery yeah she's from Brooklyn she's very fiery she's a great person too she's you know how I met Leah how'd you meet her I

90:39was in Celebrity Center in What's called the president's office and I was there for some event I mean many years ago is there an election no so how does someone get to be president no it's just you you you're given the post of the president of that organization oh okay yeah it's just granted now Leah comes walking out of this room and she said I got the part I says what do you mean you got the part she says I got the part I says who are you she says my name is Leah I got the part in this new show called The King of Queens yay congratulations I gave her a hug that's how I met her the day she got the part and we've been good buddies ever since I met her real close to that time as well yeah I I'm good buddies with Kevin James oh and Kevin James was you know obviously the lead of the King of Queens and uh he's a stand-up comic we came up together and uh you know IID always uh I

91:34was like she's what is she a Scientologist or something he like yeah she's all focused she does all Scientology he goes get the out he go yeah but he's a funny man he's a very funny guy very funny he's hilarious yeah um and he just was like I don't know what the going on and that was it like he didn't talk about it she didn't talk about it I know and and the show went on no matter what yeah they're both professionals oh great show I enjoy it and I watch very little TV but that was a show and I could pick it up anytime and watch it another thing I can watch is the Eagles beating the Giants melt down at The Meadowlands I don't you ever see that no well the Eagles are down three touchdowns they come back and win in the last 13 seconds I'm originally from Pennsylvania okay you reminiscing now is that what's going on here yeah a little change of pace you know break the tension here you know I

92:22there's no tension I know so listen Ron good luck with this book it's called ruthless um people can get it everywhere you know I'm an eternal optimist and I would hope that one day you'd be able to speak to your kids and one day you'd be able to speak to your son and everybody could work this out but I would hope for the same thing and I guess I'm starting to lose uh hope on that matter because it's the years are going by now I've been out for like 5 years and I don't know what's going to change it other than maybe enough people speaking out and them dropping that disconnection policy talk to Tom Cruz Tom Cruz holler at me let's do a podcast buddy come on in here Let's Straighten this whole out yeah thank you Ron appreciate it buddy okay thank you hey thanks a lot for having me appreciate it how long were we on