Josh Dubin

00:03Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan experience. TRAIN BY DAY, JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY WHAT'S UP? What's up, man? Good to see you. Good to see you. Uh so, I guess we just get right into it. The last case that we talked about, we had uh a very unfortunate incident happen after the podcast uh about a month later. Yeah. Uh the gentleman beheaded somebody. Allegedly, yes. Allegedly. There's a lot of allegedlys, but Yeah. There's so many crazy things to that case. The craziest thing was him uh trying to fool the security cameras with a wig. Like I guess he didn't know how high-resolution cameras had gotten over the 25 years that he was in jail. I mean, apparently there's a lot he didn't know. The only reason I say allegedly is because um I'd be a bit of a hypocrite if I started calling him guilty um before he has a trial, but based on the surveillance um

01:12It don't look good. What do they say in Texas? It ain't too It's so crazy because uh you know, we went out with him that evening. We brought him to the comedy club. He was hanging out with us in the green room, and then the news broke, and then uh the comics were like, "Hey, man, what the [ __ ] What the [ __ ] you doing bringing that guy around?" I'm like, "Well, we didn't know." I I I mean, Who could have known he was going to do I I'm as I'm as uh I'm as shocked over it now as I was in the moment. I mean, yeah, I don't uh you know, there are no words. I I went through um it's really not funny. I mean, I'm only laughing out of sort of nervousness, I guess. And I I mean Yeah, I was in I was in St. Louis of all places. Which is only memorable because that's where I was when someone called me and said, "Have you looked at the news?"

02:14And I said, "I was in court." And I was on a break. And um You know, I called him a miracle on this show. And and the the media showed that straight up my ass. I mean Of course. But that's what they're going to do. Well, he was the only guy that you'd ever brought in that was actually guilty. That you felt was in jail for too long. You know, he he got a 50-year sentence, correct? 70. 70. And it was reduced to 25. It was just basically time served. He did about 30 years. 20 Um and they resentenced him. Look, I would be um I've had a lot of time to think about this. And I know you and I have discussed it privately. And I kind of went into a hole after this. Um My first This didn't happen to me. A lot of people say, "I'm so sorry." Um but some people have said other things that weren't very nice. Yeah. But the people that I, you know

03:16regard their opinion were sorry that it didn't happen to me. My first thought was I had two thoughts was that poor guy that got killed. Um and it was a gruesome murder. You know, it wasn't just beheaded. I think he was dismembered completely. Well, he was trying to get rid of the body, right? Right. Allegedly. Allegedly. Allegedly. Um And my first thought was for him and his family. And then my I think my second this tore down 50 years of work that a lot of people have fought really hard for and really need and I felt like I let you down. Um You know, you've given us some an amazing platform to get stories out for people that really need help. I think we've made a ton of progress. We've got some exonerations as a direct result of this. Yeah, you didn't let me down at all. No, I didn't I I appreciate that you felt like that. It didn't feel like that to me at all.

04:30It was just Listen, there's a reality of prison life. There's a reality of being incarcerated. There's a reality of taking a person who's convicted of a violent crime and putting them in jail with violent people for 30 years. There's just a reality and you know, I don't know what history he had with this man that he allegedly killed. Um but you know, it's like you can only take so much. Yeah, I mean listen, I don't know. My first emotion This is for me and my therapist. My first emotion is usually like guilt. So, I once I I took a little bit of time and thought it through. Um I mean, of course, I come on your show and then you're you know, splattered all over the news for something not positive. Good news is I don't watch the news. Okay. And I don't pay attention and I don't listen to anything anybody writes about me. So, it didn't bother me at all.

05:25rare. So, look, for me um I have to take a hard look at what I'm doing and um take the mirror out and look straight in it and say like what did I do wrong? wrong. Well, well I don't think you did anything wrong. You just You just Listen, the man had great qualities. He like when you talk to him, he's very intelligent, very nice guy. He just thought he could get away with getting payback on somebody. Yeah, look, that's super gracious of you. I'm not whether I did something wrong or not, I typically go to blame and that's something that I have to that's a kink I have to work out of my personality, but let let me just articulate it because I think what I the platform is so important to me and getting these stories out is so important to me and I think that where I've landed is that he didn't let me down. He didn't let Look, I was the public

06:23face of his resentencing. There was a lot of great people involved. And it wasn't just from the defense side. The Center for Appellate Litigation had some amazing people working on his case. The District Attorney of Manhattan agreed to this. So, on paper um even in their personal interactions with him there was nothing that raised a red flag for anyone. He didn't let anyone down if he did this, which it People will draw their own conclusion. He'll have a trial. He didn't let anyone down if he did this but himself and the people that still need help and I have to swallow the jagged pill that um this work comes with some letdowns. Um the recidivism rate for people that have served long sentences like that is less than 1%. It just happened to happen on a case where I was involved. I have no Is it really that low? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. If you look at exonerations,

07:26resentencings of people that have been incarcerated for more than 20 years, it's that low. And and you know, the the harsh reality is that if you put someone on a public platform and they then do what he supposedly did it's going to make headlines. I realized Look, no one could have imagined what's in the dark recesses of that man's soul. Whether it's you know, his group home upbringing and abuse, the prison experience. It's not to make an excuse. He did it if he did it. If he's convicted and he did it, that's on him. What I'm guilty of is giving a guy a second chance and I I am un Why am I reluctant to say this? I can't apologize for giving someone a second chance and then, you know, they squander it. All I can do is say, "Well, what could I have done better?" I mean, I have a deep understanding, I think, of what incarceration means. I mean, I read this book um

08:38I always get his name confused. Is it Henry Jack Abbott or Jack Henry Abbott? It's called In the Belly of the Beast when I was in college. And it's a series of letters that this inmate wrote to Norman Mailer. It's a fascinating book. And about what incarceration does to somebody from the standpoint of um the practical day-to-day, from the deep psychosis-inducing confinement and everything else. And 2 days before the book was released um and it was reviewed by the New York Times, the guy snapped and killed someone in the East Village. And um no one will know what it is like to be in there. And again, I don't want to offer this as an excuse, but what it has caused me to do is re-evaluate and say, "Look, maybe I need to take a much closer look at what sort of mental health counseling these folks are getting." Like Sheldon, I arranged for him to be speaking to a

09:42trauma therapist. Should I have been on him more to be going to those appointments? Maybe. Um what was the circumstances with the the guy that he allegedly killed? I don't know if I'm doing it just because I'm distancing myself from it subconsciously, but I don't know all the circumstances. But, apparently, this was someone he knew from childhood and from in prison. I've heard rumors and, you know, stories about the guy um threatened his son to um he slashed Sheldon when they were in prison. I don't know if you remember Sheldon had this big gash across his face. Um but, I don't know. And I I frankly don't want to know at this point because someone lost their life and that, you know, I think, unfortunately, for my mental health, I just wear that stuff. You know, if I felt even remotely responsible for that, which I do, and uh you know, I have to I can

10:49I can be at peace with it, but I didn't cause that death and I don't, you know, I can take some responsibility for it in the sense that what can I do going forward? Um where whether it's people that are being exonerated for crimes they didn't commit or if it's people that are getting re-sentenced, you cannot undo decades of confinement. You just can't. And they all need mental health counseling, all of them. And I have to put that on my shoulders. I just do because, you know, they all have issues. And they come out and need mental health counseling and there's a stigma attached to it, especially in the African-American community. And there shouldn't be. It's no different than if you have a problem with your liver, you know, and you have to take medication. I mean, I've always been up front about the fact that I'm on medication.

11:42It's It's nothing to be ashamed of, and it's especially warranted when you're in those circumstances. Again, none of this is to make an excuse, but I just think that there's a lot more emphasis that I can focus on um assimilation more. And I think that making sure that they have job training and that they feel safe when they get out. I mean, there hasn't been one person who I've been involved in their case where even even when they're innocent, they get out and it's a [ __ ] shock. And I need to be um a lot more sensitive to that, I think. And pay a lot more attention to what they're doing, how they're doing. Again, I had I had the foresight to put Sheldon in touch with and ensure that we were getting him mental health counseling with a trauma therapist, but I you know, I didn't want to meddle too much in that because it's on him to go. So, I mean,

12:45that's where I land, um for better or for worse. Well, if the guy really did slash his face, if you've been in literal mortal combat with a person and this person is allegedly threatening your son or whatever, you know, there's only so much you can do to stop a person from seeking revenge. I guess. Especially if they don't have any hope outside of the system and they they've been completely institutionalized, which given the length of his sentence is reasonable to assume. Yeah, you're you're a lot more forgiving and understanding than um than a lot of people were and have been about this. You know, I've had There's been two schools of thought in the reaction. I mean, I got pretty nasty hate mail. Um and I got a lot of words of encouragement. I think the hate mail outweighed the words of encouragement. Always. But Psychologically always.

13:47I mean, by in in substance number and probably psychologically. Yeah. Um but um that [ __ ] just gives me fuel. You know, if you're sending me [ __ ] you, you race baiter, you this, you that. Race baiter? Yeah, oh yeah, I got a lot of that. How are you a race baiter? Um by telling the truth about the state of race in the criminal justice system in this country. I don't I You see, the thing is the one the one force field I have around myself is when that's incoming I I'm able to say, "Okay, thanks for the fuel. Thanks for the fuel." I'll never respond to it. Um you know, unless you're doing mental health counseling in a prison, unless you're a corrections officer, a police officer, um know what it's like to be incarcerated, you have no [ __ ] business giving me your shitty opinion about what you think I am or others that

14:42do this work. Get in the [ __ ] arena and do it yourself. And I you know, so I I take that with a big grain of salt. Um you know, I have enough common sense and practical sense to sort of let to disregard that. But I have to be a big enough person to look at myself and say, "Well, what can I learn from this and what could I do better?" Because, you know, I was talking to Derek Hamilton who's been on the show and the the deputy director of the the Freedom Clinic at the Promotor Center. And you know, Derek said, "Look, um mental health counseling when I was it it flew in the face of the us versus them mentality. I didn't think they could help me. Mhm. And I didn't want to have want the help. I was mad. And there was a stigma attached to it that I was soft if I did it. I didn't want people in inside knowing. Um so I don't um

15:50We're trying to formulate a plan to normalize mental health counseling in prison. So Derek and I are doing a town hall at Shawangunk, which is a pretty rough prison in New York on December 6th to try to get some of the inmates to understand that it's okay to ask for this help. I think when they see Derek and hear his story it's um it's helpful for them. So I'm going to say something that's going to sound pretty controversial, but I think you know, one of the uh one of the conversations that I've had uh repeatedly, I had it with J.D. Vance, I've had it with quite a few people, is psychedelic therapy for veterans. Um people with severe PTSD because of war, I think are the most deserving of psychedelic therapy and the benefits of it, and the fact that that stuff is schedule one and is illegal in the United States, I think is absurd. It's

16:45ridiculous. It's horrible. It's a a massive disservice to those people that put their lives on the line and went over and experienced horrific things that the average person like myself can only imagine, and you're not going to do a good job of imagining it. I think prisoners could benefit from psychedelic therapy as well. I think there's a lot of people that could be rehabilitated by changing the way they they view things, literally changing their mind, changing their perspective, and I think there's a lot of psychedelic therapies that could aid in that, particularly for people who you know, they're not violent people. Um they're they're just had their victim of circumstance or they made bad decisions in their life or what have you. And they're stuck. And they're stuck both mentally and physically. And if we want to use prisons as just a deterrent to crime,

17:40okay? I think we should probably put some effort towards rehabilitation. You know, sincere significant efforts towards rehabilitation. And one of the best ways to do that is to try to change the way people view themselves and view the world and view themselves as a part of the world. The fact that you would even think that that would be controversial, I think it's just a a byproduct of the fact that anything that somebody articulates that's outside of like what's considered mainstream is rejected. Unquestionably, the research is overwhelming. Overwhelming. That psychedelics are one of the best um one of the best, most effective um therapies for PTSD. My therapist has um you know, counseled people with PTSD coming back from war. And you know, has has espoused the not only the efficacy of it, but how remarkably um different it is from conventional

18:56therapies in the most positive of ways. And I could not agree with you more. I think that if you look at some of the European countries that look at their prison systems as a real rehabilitative model. I mean, we have to decide that we we we talked about the stats and I'm not um going to, you know, re-litigate that here, but look, we incarcerate people at a higher rate than any other civilization on Earth. So, we have to decide as a society, are we just going to throw people away and put them in cages and make them worse? Even if they committed the crime or, as you said, are we really going to try to rehabilitate people? Because some people are getting out no matter what. Whether they have people like me involved and other great people that do this work. Um but they're going to get out. Do you want them out like they were just an

19:52animal let out of a cage or do you want them out where rehabilitation is a cornerstone of their incarceration? And it just doesn't happen in our criminal justice system. a bizarre attitude in this country that we shouldn't do anything to make their life better while they're in there, you know, and that something like psychedelic therapy that it's a luxury. You know, that it's something they don't deserve, that it's something that should be reserved for good people. Or or so or that there's some like it's for people that are like [ __ ] off and, you know, the others that do drugs, that whole mentality. Sure. Yeah, there's that, too. So, yeah, I listen, I mean you talk about like looking up at the mountain and saying, can I scale it? I think what you have to do it and I'm talking about this all it takes is one state, one municipality, one person who says,

20:55that's interesting, show us the literature. We have this amazing policy director at the Promotor Center named Sarah Chew and she's in the trenches having these arguments, having these fights, trying to get forensic labs, um you know, ensuring that they have the proper training accreditation so that they're not introducing, you know, various forms of junk science. All it takes is just the effort going forward to try to start pushing that boulder uphill or else, you know, again, this goes to you know, the incoming hatred in a situation like we had here is like, "What the [ __ ] are you doing?" to help try to make the situation better because just calling names and pointing fingers and saying, "You [ __ ] up." or this person that we threw away is not worth saving. Listen, everybody has made some mistake that they wish other people didn't know

21:57about. You know, and it's not always a homicide, obviously, but a lot of people have done something that but for the grace of God go I, right? Mhm. Um where if somebody was looking, if law enforcement was looking, it could be you that was there. And would you want a second chance? Would you want redemption? Would you want the help to overcome whatever demons? And I I just think why psychedelics aren't, you know, looked at um ketamine, the the little bit that I did going through a dark time, it uh it almost snapped me in a different direction. Yeah. And I mean, I you know, you urged me on to it. I mean, you were the one that said you should really think about this. And my therapist urged me on to it. And I think, you know, so I know that the literature is there. It's just we have to get past this whole um It's so weird that you mentioned that.

23:08I was talking to a guy on the plane on the way down who was tell asked me um if marijuana legalization passed in Florida. Um because I was So, we were talking about, you know, where you from, this and that. And he was telling me that um And he was from Colorado. And he told me that, you know, in Colorado, when marijuana was legalized, that there was this whole um movement of people that were saying that it would be a gateway drug, and that it was going to lead people down this slippery slope to doing other hardcore drugs. And he said, you know, the gulf between smoking weed and turning into a meth addict doesn't exist. He said that the bridge between the two doesn't exist. And if you start walking marijuana use and trying to link it to um drugs that the US government considers a problem, the link just isn't there. Right. So, I mean, I, you know, he was sort of

24:15or trying to explain to me how he didn't understand how marijuana is any different than alcohol. And I said, well, go tell that to the state legislature in Florida. I don't know what to tell you. Did it not pass in Florida? It got at 58%. Um and it needed 60%. Really? Yeah. I don't get that. I just don't get I And And Why would It's [ __ ] more than half the people. That should be it. Why did it need 60%? the same thing with um, you know, the amendment on abortion. It needed 60%. Maybe it was the abortion one that got 58%. I might be wrong about that. But at any event, I don't um I don't understand the the um resistance to psychedelics as a therapeutic both in mainstream society let alone in the prison system. Well, it all goes back to 1970. It all go back is it all goes back to the Nixon administration the sweeping psychedelics

25:14act of 1970 that turned everything schedule one that was designed to it was designed to [ __ ] the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement. That that's what it was about. It was about having new tools to uh imprison people that were anti-war that were protesting the war. The Black Panthers uh civil rights organizations all these people that were doing drugs, you know, that were using psychedelics to try to achieve a different state of consciousness and that brought them to these ideas that we're all one and that war is evil and that the United States government is being controlled by the military-industrial complex and that this is uh a giant problem in our culture, you know, but people were so weirded out by the Timothy Learys and you know, the the whole tune in uh you know, turn out whatever the [ __ ] his motto was

26:13drop out. This whole thing of leaving polite society and being a loser and just like traveling around and doing drugs in a van. Like this is this was like the the the perspective that people had that was going to take their kids and turn them into ne'er-do-wells and turn them into losers and that we were going to have a society filled with uh people that didn't understand the ethics of hard work and what made America great Look, what's born out of that is this um misunderstanding I guess is the best way to put it. Um ignorance. Well, it's propaganda. They're They're a victim of propaganda. Well, look, also, if you think about like COINTELPRO, Mhm. um you know, all of a sudden you're spying on people that you think are others. Mhm. You're um legalizing that um intelligence gathering that allows you to start violating people's civil liberties so that you can gain

27:26intelligence on them because the way they think is unlike you. Right. So, you know, it's the again sort of to me um all ties back to this very I guess tribal mentality that you're either like us or you're like them. Right. And everything that you mentioned, the psychedelics act, um the resistance to the civil rights movement, it was all based on the fact that look, we're we have a a potential uprising here of people that are going to challenge the way we think and the way we do things. Right. So, for people that call me a race baiter, right? I you know, I feel like I'm more of a truth teller and just taking the thread through history and you know, I I have at least I'll read and try to educate myself and get perspective. Um if if it wasn't a fact that brown and black men and women get incarcerated at a higher rate, I wouldn't be talking about it. And I'm

28:31just talking about facts. So, I think that it's just this um tribal misconception about these are drugs and they're bad Mhm. versus you sit and speak to someone and take some, you know, pharmacologic form of therapy that has probably way worse side effects, can be addictive, and can lead to a whole host of other issues that you then have to take something else to address, versus just being having the openness to take a look at a different way to potentially help someone. So, I don't understand it, and the only thing that that I can do is just to keep on being open-minded, and, you know, try to figure out if there's other ways that we can convince the people that are in these um penitentiaries and that run them to allow programs that at least give you a crack in the door to get in. Well, I think the way the doorway to that is to first show the effectiveness

29:38uh with veterans and uh with other people that aren't incarcerated. And that once that gets established, and once that becomes something, I think it's much, much more established now than it was when I first started talking about this stuff 20 years ago, you know, um like probably when I've had my first experiences was a little more than 20 years ago. I think people had this very ignorant idea that was born out of propaganda. Cuz you have to think 20 years ago it was only 30 years removed from the sweeping psychedelics act. So, you're dealing with uh a whole society that's been just programmed by propaganda and lies. And that proper those propaganda and lies were established in order to villainize this one group of the population that was completely changing the culture. The difference in the United States culture from 1965 to 1955 to 1965 was so dramatic. It was

30:40such an enormous shift, you know, then you have the Vietnam War, the protests, all these things that were happening in the 60s, the music, everything was changing so radically and so drastically that the people in power had a very like an an accurate sense that they were losing control. And that change was inevitable. And they threw water on it and they did a great job. If you look at it from that perspective, the difference between me It's terrible what they did, but it was effective in that from 1970 of throwing water on it. Yeah, a great job of changing culture which was changing in a in a potentially beneficial way for everyone to get us to recognize that we we truly are all one and that the way to make things better for everyone is to make things better for the most disadvantaged. And this was the civil rights movement, right? And this was the anti-war

31:39movement. This was uh This was recognized that the people are being taken advantage by the military industrial complex and just sent overseas so that they could profit. Amen. I I uh The first guy that I met that really like um changed my perspective on on the world especially in terms of what what I could potentially do as a lawyer was Jerry Lefcourt. Jerry Lefcourt was Abbie Hoffman's lawyer. Mhm. He was the lead attorney in the Panther 21 trial. I was like a kid. I was in my late 20s and I was met with him to help him pick a jury on a case and I had read about him before. And he saw something in me. We hit it off. He became like my uh like my surrogate uncle. And he would regale me with tales of his um of the Panther 21 trial. And here's a guy that was kind of winging it in his late 20s and can feel the change that you're talking about happening. And he could feel

32:55the weight against him, the pushback coming from the other side, where he would get death threats. He would get um bomb threats at his office. Where he could not even see his client in jail approaching trial and had to get on a cherry picker in in outside the jail to be able to get even with the window so that they can communicate. Jesus Christ. So, Jerry Lefcourt um and he by the way got a full acquittal in the Panther 21 trial against all odds. He was the first person that told me about COINTELPRO and what the got with the lengths that the government will go to um when they feel like their message their um way of doing things is being challenged. And I think that you hit the nail right on the head, which is this was like a flew in the face of of um Leave It to Beaver. It flew in the face of you know um Father Knows Best. It flew in the face of what

34:06white America was trying to instill as a value system that should be followed by all people without question for all time. And people started to say, "What the [ __ ] is this about? Right. I want to explore the messiness and the um the gray areas of what it means to exist as a human being." Right. And that expression um whether it was Richard Nixon or the people around him that got their backs up. Um you know, so if you are a student of history and um you start to understand sort of why we're here rather than just looking here and forward. I think these things for me are a little bit easier to understand um when somebody comes at me and calls me a race baiter for the work that I do because I talk about the problem of race. I understand that that's born out of ignorance. And I don't mean ignorance like you're a dummy. I mean ignorance like you're

35:08You're not You don't have access to the information. Yeah, or you chose not to have access to Yeah, your perspective is incorrect. Read Ta-Nehisi Coates's book Between the World and Me. It's a fascinating [ __ ] tale. It's a letter written from this you know, black man to his 15-year-old son. it is um it's a life-altering book for me because it puts you into his soul of what it has been like to grow up as a black man in this country. And um it it it stops me in my tracks when I think about it when I talk about it because it's like the only way that we can get to a more common understanding is to you know, I think to read books like that and to talk to people. And if you're so closed-off and close-minded and again, I I keep on sort of adding this disclaimer. Maybe this is my my aversion to like getting attacked. I am

36:10not excusing if Sheldon did this. I just think that um it's not so simple as oh, you let some guy you helped some guy get out and get re-sentenced and look what he did and [ __ ] all these people and [ __ ] your movement. Okay, you're entitled to that opinion. That's where I leave it. Yeah, you can't listen to those people. You just you know what you're doing. You're smart. You can't listen. Well, It's just you're going to have those people that they're always going to exist. There's always going to be people with um limited information perspective. You know, and limited information people sometimes are the loudest. And uh the most vocal about it and and also the ones who are least willing to objectively assess how they came to the conclusions that they're so vocal and loud about. You know, limited information people

36:58that's a it's a big I mean, that's why um clickbait headlines work. Well, look. I mean, People love that [ __ ] That's why you get attacked sometimes by, you know, you don't know about it because you don't read it. But that's why you get attacked sometimes. Some people try to send it to me. It's funny. I Hey, man. [ __ ] off. Stop sending me that [ __ ] someone someone in my family um a cousin of mine sent me um about you endorsing Trump and wrote, "What the fuck?" And I said, "Right. What the [ __ ] Why are you sending this to me? Like, first of all, what the [ __ ] What the [ __ ] are you What you're because you all of a sudden support this woman who, by the way, probably should have accepted the invitation to come on the show. It might have been the difference between people

37:57getting to actually know who the [ __ ] she was. But putting that aside, it's like I have to do a much better job of filtering that stuff out because the notion that um are going to be influenced by outside forces other than what you're doing. Like, for you to say you know what you're doing. I like to think I know what I'm doing and I feel like I'm doing you know what you're good things, and I just got to keep on working in that direction, not let what happens slow me down, try to learn from it, and go forward. Look, I don't want this to come across as like constantly um situation where I'm every time I get on here, I thank you, but I think the importance of this forum was was made clear by having the president on, by having the vice president on, because it's the only open forum where you don't have to worry about being judged, about um someone

39:10chopping up what you say and twisting it or leaving some remarks on the cutting room floor, and it it's it's also important because you don't give a [ __ ] about what other people say or think, and you just do what you feel is the right thing to do, because I've I mean, I've told you privately, I'll say it now again, it would have been the the easy thing for you to do would have been to say, "Well, [ __ ] this guy. I'm turning my back. I don't need to have him on again." that was never going to happen. Yeah, well. Uh listen, what you've done is amazing, and the people that you have brought on this show have changed a lot of people's perspectives about our justice system, a lot of people. You brought on some incredible people, and you've told some incredible stories, and and as you said, people have been exonerated for crimes

39:57that they didn't commit. If you are a person who's listening to this, and you had you could be [ __ ] by the system, it's possible. You could be trapped by a corrupt prosecutor. It happens. Thank God it hasn't happened to you, but if it did happen to you, you would pray that there's a Josh Dubin in the world that pays attention to your case. You know? I appreciate it, and I mean, I don't it's not just me. There's a There's a village of people that is, but a person like you. Yeah. You know, and I think highlighting that and highlighting the need for that and understanding of how the system can railroad you and the system can really [ __ ] you over. I think one of the things that we saw during the the Trump campaign was the legal system being used against one of the most powerful people in the world. And how they can get away

40:49with turning 34 misdemeanors, so essentially one misdemeanor, but 34 versions of it, 34 writing in a ledger incorrectly, that's a misdemeanor and is past the statute of limitations can be converted into a felony and turned against a guy who's running for president as lawfare. It's just completely using the legal system to try to attack a guy and try to take him out of the race and also try to label him a convicted felon. So, once you have this label a convicted felon, you you heard it on all the talk shows. Convicted felon, convicted felon, but enough people had a chance to look at the circumstances of the case and and understand what was actually what he was actually being tried for. Paying someone off to not talk about how he [ __ ] them. Is that what we're worried about or we worried about World War Is that what we're worried about? Are we

41:43worried about terrorist cells like being established in the United States because our borders wide open? Is that what we're Are we worried about the price of groceries and people being able to feed themselves? That's what we should be [ __ ] worried about, not whether or not some guy [ __ ] someone. Like, who cares? Well, it's so it's so interesting to me because the conversations that people in the legal community in New York were having at the time, I cannot tell you how many times didn't matter what side of the spectrum you were on politically. But in New York, there's a lot of [ __ ] Democrats. And I can't tell you how often I got this call. What is the crime here? What I mean with regard to that particular case, first of all, the DA in Manhattan seemed to um realize that it was a futile endeavor

42:32to go after this guy and retreated. And then something happened and they You remember the the special prosecutors quit because they were furious apparently that the DA wouldn't go forward with the case. Then um something happens in between. And Alvin Bragg, the district attorney of Manhattan, proceeds with the case. So many legal scholars said, "What is the crime here? I understand there's a series of misdemeanors that somehow gets flipped into a felony." Legal scholars that had issues with it. And if they spoke about it publicly, they were attacked. Right. Alan Dershowitz was one of them. He was attacked. Anyone that would speak out and there's this fear for good legal minds to get behind defending a case like that because it's viewed in um Democratic strongholds like kryptonite. Right. Um so you mean remarking on that case, yeah,

43:32it was weaponized against him. And that's why I think it was this morning the judge in that case agreed to a joint motion by the prosecution and the defense to put everything on hold cuz they're deciding whether or not they're going to dismiss that case. And if you remember the the drum that was constantly beat before this election was, "He'll never get out of these state cases. The federal ones we understand because he can pardon himself." But the state cases, oh, those are going to be a problem. Well, not so fast, right? Because now if it was that much of a uh a crime and the people were so up in arms about it, why are they now considering dismissing it? And I think that the the it puts the the lie to the notion that this was really something that we wanted to make an example out of and you can't engage in this type of conduct. What

44:28conduct? You know, it was obviously politically motivated. And you know what? It happens all over the country. It happens all over the country. On both sides of the aisle though. Um we have I have a case right now that and for me to be able to say this is probably um you know I had to think is this is this the craziest [ __ ] case I've had? And and it has to be. It has to be. Um because the DA that is sitting in judgment of whether or not these four men that I'm going to tell you about in a moment right before the election for him to become DA gets indicted. He gets indicted for allegedly like harassing a former employee and then trying to bribe her not to file a complaint against him, something like that. Right before the election. And all of a sudden he is now embroiled in this he loses the election couple weeks ago and he is now finds himself

45:44wrongful according to him wrongfully accused of a crime he didn't commit. Well, my client um is a name guy by the name of John Edwards. And there were four guys. This is in Lorain, Ohio. Lorain County, Ohio. It's John Edwards, Lenworth Edwards, Benson Davis and a guy named Al Cleveland. New York guys. Um in the early '90s who were selling drugs in Ohio. They were going back and forth from Ohio to New York. And one morning um a man by the name of Epps is found dead in the street. His roommate is found about 7 hours later. Woman named Marsha Blakely. Um dumped in an alley um The case is cold for a month. The police have hit dead ends. They have The prosecutor's office offers a $2,000 reward for anyone with information about the case. Wouldn't you know that the next day a man by the name of William Avery senior walks in to the the Lorraine County prosecutor's office.

47:15They sit him down with the police and he says, "I have information about the case." Now, this guy William Avery senior was a known informant. The police knew him. He had come and tried to give information about other cases. Didn't pan out. He was also a drug addict. And they sit with him for over an hour. And they say to him, "Everything you're telling us has been in the papers. So, you're not giving us anything new here." He shows up the next day with his son. William Avery Jr. And he says he witnessed the murder. So, William Avery Jr. talks to the police. At the end of that interview, he goes, "What about the reward money?" And the officer says, "Let's turn the tape recorder off and They tell him, "We're not giving you the reward money because now you're telling us that information that's been in the papers, and all you're telling us is that you

48:23saw Marsha Blakely assaulted in an apartment. You're not telling us anything about the murder." The very next day, he shows up and says that Al Cleveland told him that he murdered Marsha Blakely. So, let's put a bookmark in it cuz I decided I wanted to do something a little bit different today. Um at the end of the episode, I'm going to give you a Twitter account. I've submitted today a 40-page submission. All of the exhibits that are mentioned in that submission to the Lorain County Prosecutor. His name is J.D. Tomlinson. So, now I'm going to invite the public. Before you go writing a letter to him or calling him, you read the submission and look at the exhibits yourself because what often happens is that in these prosecutors' offices have something called a conviction integrity unit where they say they'll reinvestigate the case.

49:32And the very first thing they make you do is sign a no media agreement that you won't go to the media cuz the last thing they want you to do is what I just did. It's to talk about the case publicly. So, we're not in a conviction integrity unit. We're trying to appeal to a prosecutor, J.D. Tomlinson, who from what I understand has told Al Cleveland's wife cuz I've spoken to her. Her name is Roberta. Great woman. Came up to her in the summer at a barbecue and said, "When I was a law student, I sat in on your husband's trial. And it always bothered me. And I want you to come in and have your lawyers come in. I'm going to do the right thing." And now that he's been indicted, he has gone silent. I haven't heard from him. I've texted him. I see he reads my messages because he has read receipts on. And I guess he doesn't know that. Um and I've asked him for the time, I

50:31think in his wildest dreams, he probably never could have imagined that the case was going to now become national news. Um he has between now and December 31st to do the right thing and exonerate them. The incoming DA would never do it, I don't think, from what I've heard. So, I'm going to invite the public and I'll give you the link at the end. And I want to tell you the rest of the story um because some of the things I tell you, you're going to say, "Come on. That can't be true." So, I have the exhibits sitting in a folder for everybody to read. But, um you know, the I think that the justice system has been weaponized against JD Tomlinson because he was coming up for a re-election. There's all sorts of like personal animosity between him and the guy that just got elected. There's allegations at least that the guy that just got elected

51:25helped the you know, was somehow involved in um you know, getting him indicted by a special prosecutor. I don't know if it's true or not. But, it doesn't just happen on the big national stage. It happens all over the place and you just don't always hear about it. Well, I think the fact that it happened on the big national stage the way it did and not just the case of the hush money, but also the case of Mar-a-Lago being overvalued, which is preposterous. That was one of the most ridiculous ones. They They listed it what, 17, 18 million dollars? I would buy five of those if they were available for 18 million dollars. You know how much money you would make for that kind of property? Have you ever been to this place? No. It's I've been there a bunch. I've seen it. It's [ __ ] It's magnificent. Yeah. You walk in there and you feel like, you know, Marjorie Post

52:22bought it and had it designed It's magnificent. Forbes, I think, had valued it between 7 and 900 million dollars. Is that true? Find out what what the valuation was. But like independently, before all this [ __ ] it had been valued And I think Trump valued it over a billion, which of course he's going to do. doing it to the bank, right? Trying to get a loan. paid the loan off with interest. Everything was fine, and then nobody There's zero victims involved in this. And the fact that they want to say that it was actually So, what does it say here? Okay, 350. Okay. So, the club had revenues of 25.1 million for the calendar year of 2017, 22 in 2018, and 21 in 2019. 2022 2022, Forbes estimated the value of the estate around 350 million dollars. I think Trump jacked it way higher than that. And I think I I've read somewhere that someone had said

53:17between 7 and 9 if you could like what a real estate evaluation would be, like what it's actually worth in the state that it's at. I think there was an issue though that it it was a wasn't it like listed as a national historic landmark or something like that, Jamie? Right, so then you really can't do anything to it, which devalues it somewhat, but still I would think listen, 18 million is [ __ ] crazy. There's no property like that anywhere. Um you feel like you're in Europe when you're there. Um, it is it is a magnificent place and has some of the best food in Florida. Um, so I don't and I don't know that part of the valuation of something like that seems to me to be a bit subjective. It's now the home um, of the sitting two-time president of the United States. Um, so yeah, but putting all that aside Just the real estate alone. There was a

54:12there was a lot that was sold next to it or a home that was sold next to it that was $50 million. And they it's not just Mar-a-Lago. Across the street they have the beach club that sits right on the beach. But the point is is that they're meddling into Look, the bank could have said, "Well, we're going to send an appraiser out there and we're going to determine whether or not we agree with you that it's worth that." That happens for anyone that's ever sold a home. So, yeah, the point is there's no victim. The point is like there it's not like he got this loan and then defrauded the bank and then defaulted on his loan and then pocketed the money. No. No, he paid everything back with interest. It was profitable for the bank. Everything worked out. It's like this is a [ __ ] case. Everyone knows it's a [ __ ] case. So, that's another one

54:58that was in the news that everybody got a chance to see. Well, hopefully hopefully it opens people's eyes. Look, there's a lot of white-collar crimes that I've been um, a defense lawyer on um, where you see the human cost of a prosecution. What it does to the person accused but also their family. And to somehow crawl out from under the weight of the the federal government. These these take years and a fortune to defend. And often times you're thinking, "Why did they bring this case?" Um, what who are the victims here? And they come up with some loss calculation that's very theoretical. I'm talking about cases where you can't point to a victim that lost money. And um you know, you wonder why some prosecutions are brought and others aren't. And you see again what it does to not only devastate families and the accused, but is it really deterring anyone? I would never

56:08ever enter an industry where I was working with stocks, bonds, commodities, anything that was regulated in any way by FINRA, the SEC, because they'll Oh, it seems like they can make a case sometimes when there isn't a case to be made. And hopefully, you know, regardless of what side of the political spectrum you're on, what happened to Trump should be eye-opening to people because you don't have to agree with him or his politics or his policies to see what's happening today as we sit here when everything's being reconsidered. And And you think about the massive expense that um it takes to prosecute these cases. That guy has I don't care what anybody says about him. He's got to be one of the toughest [ __ ] you've ever met to stare down all of this. And most people would be in a puddle. Um to stare down these prosecutions and

57:08the threat of going to jail and everything else. That breaks a lot of people. Yeah. Um And then two assassination attempts. Yeah. Jesus Christ. He's built He's built different. Yeah, he has. I mean, the guy's 78 years old, and I talked to him for 3 hours, and he didn't pee before, he didn't pee afterwards, just sat here, talked, wouldn't didn't lose any energy, and then flew off to do uh a campaign rally. Yeah, listen. I hope I wish him all the success in the world. I hope he does well. I I got these um well, you you can't vote for Kamala Harris after what you've said about her. You're right. Yeah. I voted for Jill Stein because this two-party system to me is [ __ ] You know, you got to like you got to be with us or them. And then there's all kinds of gaslighting that goes on and Yeah. you have to answer to people. I just

57:59feel like there should be more choices, but That's a different certainly should be. Yeah. That's a different existential issue. you know, you spoke on the podcast about her history as a prosecutor and what she had done. And uh I know they contacted you after after that. Yeah, I mean, what was happening Well, this was way back um when I think it was days before she was selected to be the um vice presidential running mate for Biden. But um I think it was Carpenter who was Was that his name? He's a great congressman. Um he wears an eye patch. I don't know. Oh, Dan Crenshaw? Dan Crenshaw, not Carpenter. Dan Crenshaw took a clip from the podcast and was circulating it on Twitter. Um and it was of me being critical of her. And you know, and again, that's a situation where she had so many opportunities during this campaign to just say, "Listen,

58:59I obviously I watched a little vignette about this family who was prosecuted for their truant child. And it ruined them. Um so all of this I'm a prosecutor and I'm going to prosecute the case against this That That petrified me. Because I have sat in rooms with prosecutors that just want to be right and win. And I would just say, "Please, just open your mind a little bit." I was just I just sat in a room with a conviction integrity unit and there were prosecutors in the room where and I'm I can't can't sign one of those agreements, so I can't name the case or the city or the borough, um but where the the prosecutor went to federal prison for bribing witnesses and is accused of the same conduct in this case where he was giving money to someone who has recanted their testimony. And the prosecutors sitting in the room are like it wasn't that they weren't

60:07open-minded. They had their mind made up before we got in there. And you feel like saying, "Can you just listen? Just listen." They just want to win. Yeah, and I think that that that is my problem with the two-party system is that it's you're either on this side or you're on this side. Right. And there's no room for gray area between the issues. Right. Um I have I have a friend who I mean I I learned so much during this election. I have a friend who is from Central America and um she was telling me, "I I didn't When Trump won the first time, I was furious. I couldn't stand the guy. Um but when I came to this country, I saw my mom fight for citizenship and I saw what she had to go through the right way for me to get citizenship. And she said, "So I just can't vote for anybody but him." So everybody has their own reasons for doing it. It doesn't mean it has to be

61:05all about a cult of personality and you're voting for your endorsing everything about the person. And I think that, you know, having that understanding that, you know, look, a lot of people that I spoke to a friend of mine the other day that grandparents, you know, were in the Holocaust. His grandfather survived the Holocaust and he voted for Trump because he's like, I didn't feel protected by the other side. You know, as as those grandson of people that went through that. So, yeah, I just think that um watching a system get weaponized against someone in that in that way. It's It's upsetting and hopefully, like you said, it opens people's eyes to the fact that if they could do it to the president Yeah. it could happen to you. transparent. It was so transparent. It wasn't like he committed a murder. And there's a lot of evidence pointing to

61:58the fact that he committed this murder. No, it was just a crime that didn't make any sense. You're going to spend millions and millions of dollars prosecuting this crime. You're going to parade it around for the whole world just so the Democrats can have this talking point, convicted felon. And you just see it repeated over and over again on MSNBC and CNN. These pundits want to say convicted felon. They want to say that. Like, what's the [ __ ] crime? Tell me what the crime is. But when you you want to get smart and and spout off facts, why don't you tell me about the case? Because I've looked at it and it's [ __ ] bananas. And if it happened to you, you'd be terrified. Because they just made a crime, they made a felony out of something that's not a felony. If you're looking for logic and reasoning in any of these, you're not

62:50going to find it. I mean, listen. I feel so terrible. feel different about some of the cases. Like, I feel like the you know, the election case is had has the most substance to it. You know, standing up and saying the election's rigged, the election's rigged. I have a problem with that, but you know, uh obviously more than half the country didn't have as much of a problem with it. And was one of the ones that I said was the weirdest where he didn't have an answer ready. That you should have an answer ready right away. If I had been accused of something that like that and I strongly believed that the elections were rigged, I'd be able to give you facts right away. But he can't. My Well, who's his facts? Rudy Giuliani and MyPillow? Well, that's the thing is like I don't know how much time he has to investigate the cases, right? So, he has probably

63:43people telling him things and who are these people and what is their evidence and what's their information? I I would I would hope that if you have something that's so controversial, like you ran for president, you believe you should have won and they rigged it, you should have data that you could spit out at any cocktail party. But he's doing the same thing that you're talking about CNN and MSNBC do, which is just repeating the same thing. When people were standing in line voting a couple of weeks ago, he was saying the election was This election was rigged and poof, it must have they have straightened it out because he won. But I don't, you know. he was what he was saying was they were trying to rig the election and I think did he have to back that up? Well, there's the one thing of bringing in people to the country illegally and

64:28then pushing for amnesty, which was they were doing. Well, yeah, I just don't know the numbers on it and I don't know if there's millions of people. If you think about the amount of people that came into the country, right? And you think about how some of these swing states their cumulative votes was like 75,000 that switched it one way or another. And just you could imagine if you're bringing in millions and millions of people and you're moving them to swing states. Well, if you could If that's Yeah, if that's true. And the evidence against it was like, well, they're not all moving to swing states. Well, okay, you can't tell people where they can and can't move once they come to the United States. If they have family that's in Texas or if they have family that's in Arkansas or whatever, they're going to go over the

65:03[ __ ] they want to go, but a significant number of them were in the country. If you're bringing in 10 million people, you have a quite a bit of a buffer. It's not a perfect system, but if you're trying to let people in illegally and then give them not just protection, but also money, food, food stamps, housing, taking care of them, and then giving them an incentive to vote for the party that did that to them when the other party wants to They They want to round people up and mass deportations. putting party aside, what evidence did you see, documentary evidence, that people were registering to vote? And how many of them? not that they were registering to vote. The issue is that there's no voter ID, which is [ __ ] insane. You need an ID for everything. This ID Where Where is there no voter ID? Harris won some states that require

65:56voter ID, contrary to online claims, fact-check. So, what Oh, so there's an online chart that's incorrect that people are passing around? See, that's This is This is exactly did she win that have voter ID? Well, she's got There's certain like deep state deep blue states. I hear you. Call Rhode Island and so But look what just happened. So, is that two? Is that the two? Uh Vice President also won New Hampshire, which requires photo ID, but allows individuals without one to either have their identity confirmed by a designated official or fill out an affidavit. Um Harris also won both Delaware and Virginia. So, there's a couple states that she won that have voter ID. But these are these are like these deep blue states. Fair enough. Look, I think that the question is the swing states. I don't know enough about it, and I I'm I live in a

66:46in a world where I need the evidence. But backing up to the other election, look, if I'm just saying if there was one case where I was like, "Come on, man." You know what's weird about the the one the 2020 that we keep going back to is the amount of people that voted. That's what's really crazy. Way more. And I don't know what to make of that. Well, it's the first time ever you have mail-in ballots that are used ubiquitously. You know, you that wasn't a thing before. Mail-in ballots were essentially for people that were overseas. Well, I think I think COVID had a big part Sure, it did. But, also never, you know, miss an opportunity. And if you wanted to cheat, that would be the way to do it. And to try to keep voted mail-in ballots keep people voting by mail-in ballots when it's not necessary anymore. It's not a pandemic. Sounds good. Seems crazy.

67:29It sounds but it's not a to me, I live in a world that you cannot say [ __ ] like that without backing it up. But, listen, whether I don't I have started to really veer away from having a strong political view and just putting my head down and doing what I can. So, I don't I mean I don't see the evidence on the prior election. I see the claim repeated a lot. I just didn't see the see the evidence either. But, I do see evidence that people are trying to make it easier for illegals to vote. That disturbs me. The the the pathway to citizenship has always been kind of difficult. And when you talk to people that have done it the right way, it's very hard. They have to go up for review. They have to hope that this person decides that they're a person worthy of being in this country. And you had to be a person of extraordinary skill and

68:23talent where that talent and skill wasn't available in the United States. Listen, I recently moved out of New York to Florida. And I got my driver's license and registered to vote pretty quick after I moved there. My wife didn't. When we went to vote, they wouldn't let her vote because it hadn't been 30 days yet. Um so, all I could say is that in Florida, they required an ID. Yeah. And they didn't let my wife vote literally passed a law where you're not allowed to ask for ID. Which is crazy. Yeah, it is crazy. That's crazy. Well, why would you do that? Andre Andre the most charitable version of why you would do that? Yeah, Andre Andre Ward and I have been discussing California quite a bit recently. Um and um it's it's a little bananas to live in California right now. It's [ __ ] crazy. Yeah, he's uh It's not going to get better, either. You know

69:25a lot more people voted red in California. Have you seen the map of uh 2020 versus 2024? Yeah, I did. There's a giant significant shift, and if that keeps going, the state's going to go red. And I think if the state keeps falling apart, people are going to come to their senses and recognize that the policies that they have in place right now are [ __ ] gross. They're gross, and you've got a bunch of bureaucrats that are profiting off of the homeless situation. They're taxing the [ __ ] [ __ ] out of people. The state tax is 14. If you live in LA, it's another one. So, you have 15% of all your money just goes to incompetence. It's the same thing in New York City. I mean, you you're giving to the state, Mhm. to the city. You end up paying way more than if you make enough money, you end up paying way more. Here's the rub I don't get about

70:14Democrats, all right? This is the thing that bothers me about Democrats, and this is why I I registered finally as an independent. The We hear about the American dream a lot. The American dream. The American dream. I was a son of a teacher. Now I sound like a politician. I was a son of a teacher and a son Did you grow up middle class? What was that? Yeah, I grew up middle class. Is that the common denominator? mid middle class, right? And we had to grind it out, and there were financial problems and everything else. So, the American dream is to make it on your own, to be self-made. And then you get to that point, and you get demonized for it. Now you need to give back in a way that how dare you not give more than half your effective salary, more than half your income if you live in California or New York. Right. You give it away. Right.

71:0352%, 53%. You end up feeling like what the [ __ ] What did I do wrong? I give back in so many other ways in this. Here's my take on that. If they were doing a great job and they were legitimately making people's lives better, I'd be fine with that. If if there was a system where I had to pay 50% because I make a lot of money and I had to pay 50% but that 50% was changing people's lives. They could show you all these success stories. It's like revolutionizing the way uh poor people are allowed to make it out of that situation and and have a better life. in California? No. I wasn't feeling it in New York. Going to You don't feel it. Going to the state courthouse bureaucracy. Yeah, it's it's uh You feel like corrupt politicians who are profiting off of narratives. And they're they're a bunch of dirty people who don't even follow their own

71:50[ __ ] rules, particularly Gavin Newsom. Doesn't even follow his own rules. It's the guy that got busted in the middle of the pandemic wearing no mask indoors eating at the French Laundry. It's all [ __ ] It's all [ __ ] and the people felt really [ __ ] prisoned by it. They felt really captured by their government and a lot that's why a lot of people moved. He's got great hair. That's some great hair. Great hair. Well, he's a great sort of version of what you would expect of a politician. Just Why does great hair get you so far? Well, people want great hair. They want the good genes. Tall and great hair means a lot to people. Um Yeah, I don't I don't [ __ ] get it. Uh yeah, I mean stupid. There's a lot of stupidity involved in why we choose things, you know? I read I read this article once about

72:40how um there was a a poll done of female voters when Bill Clinton ran the first time and they asked the reasons why and it was multiple choice and one of them was that he was good-looking and had a full head of hair. Yeah. They want to [ __ ] him. Yeah. And apparently he wanted to [ __ ] them. Yeah. He was great president though. I mean what in terms of policy, in terms of what did for the economy, guy was a great president. Great orator. I agree except for the fact that mass incarceration kind of started with him. Yes, the the crime bill of '94. Yeah. So, I think that our prison industrial complex started with Bill Clinton. Well, it was kicked off by Joe Biden. It was It is Which is hilarious that this is the guy running against all that. Yeah. It's all [ __ ] Um you know, I don't it it was very interesting to me that this is

73:34playing out in real time with with the incoming president and I have this parallel situation going on in Ohio. This is called a weave. I'm weaving. Back to Ohio. And I want to tell you the rest of the story about the Ohio four. Um So, this guy JD Tomlinson is the the prosecuting attorney in Lorraine. He's under indictment right now. He's got two months left. Um like I said, he now knows according to him what it's like to be wrongfully accused of a crime. So, watch this. You have these four guys who So, again it's Al Cleveland, Lenworth Edwards, John Edwards, Benson Davis. Yeah, you got to light up for this one. So, I told you Willie Mayberry Senior goes in, tries to get the reward money, they tell him [ __ ] off. Brings his son in the next day, they say to him no dice. Then he comes back and says, "Okay, Al Cleveland told me he committed the murder."

74:42Comes time for um their trials to begin and they're going to all be tried separately. And William Avery Junior gives this account of how this murder happened. And he says that he watches this woman, Marsh Blakeley, get beat for 15 to 20 minutes inside of her apartment and that, you know, the reason um he this woman gets beat is because Al Cleveland wanted him to work off a debt and beat her up. And he said no. So then these four men bust in the door and that this is how the crime occurs. It comes time for the first trial of these four men. And William Avery Jr. shows up as the prosecution's star witness. And he says, "I want $10,000 to testify." "You gave me two, I want 10,000." And the prosecutors say, "We're not giving it to you." And he says then I'm not testifying. He's in jail. He is cooling his heels, as they say, and he says, you know, um

75:58"I made this whole thing up. And I did it for the money." And no one believes him. And the judge says, "What are you talking about? You're going to get on the stand and testify." He says, "No, I'm not." And now he's facing potential perjury charges. The judge declares a mistrial. He then comes back with a new story to the prosecutors and says he witnessed the beating, he witnessed other details of the crime. He then goes on to testify at all four of their trials. After the first mistrial, they all get convicted. He then fully recants of his own volition. Says he got off drugs, says he wants to He's in the process of cooperating with the FBI and the Secret Service. Now, these exhibits are sitting in this folder. You go to Twitter, it's free the Ohio 4. Free the Ohio 4. There it is. And if you just click on that URL following? Well, we

77:12There was a There was a a reason because I didn't put it up until right before the episode today. I'll be the first person to follow it. So on I'm going to get on right now and be the first person to follow it. If you click on that, it will bring you to a folder with this 40-page submission that I put in today. And references to all of the exhibits. So, here um this is my first page. At the trials of Al Monday, that was his pseudonym. Al Cleveland's pseudonym. At the trials of Al Monday and those charged with him, I testified under oath that I was an eyewitness to Alfred Cleveland, who I knew as Monday, along with other people I knew as J.R. Willingham Shaquille, who was John Edwards, beat Marsha Blakely at Floyd Epp's apartment and then murder her behind Charlie's bar in Lorraine. All of this was a lie. I never witnessed the murder of Marsha

78:08Blakely, was not with her or Al Cleveland the night she was murdered. I only done it for the money and everything was not true. The entire case was built on this man. There's no forensic evidence, no eyewitnesses, nothing. So, this is not to be believed. What was the reason why they thought this woman and that other man were murdered? They didn't know. They had no theory. Police had no theory. to them? No connection to them. There was no theory like drug deal gone wrong something? that was what they ended up coming up with was that she was a drug user, uh Cleveland was a drug dealer, it must have been drugs gone wrong. So, something involving drugs gone wrong. So, William Avery Jr. is after they get convicted, is working as an informant for the FBI and the Secret Service. Now, prior to this case, maybe this is how obtuse I am, I thought that the Secret Service's

79:12purview was the president, but apparently they have other investigative functions cuz he was working on some food stamp scheme as an informant. The Secret Service tells the FBI and the testimony is in that exhibit file. The Secret Service tells the FBI, this guy William Avery Jr., he's not to be trusted. He's lying to us and he's lying to us for money. They contact the prosecutor. The FBI calls the prosecutor in Lorraine County and says this guy William Avery Jr., used him as an informant in that case against these four men, he's a liar. And he does this for money. So, they end up getting Al Cleveland's lawyers, John Edwards' lawyers, Len Worth Edwards, Benton and Davis, they end up getting an evidentiary hearing. And William Avery Jr. comes to testify. And he's coming to testify that I made the whole thing up. And he's in very exquisite detail,

80:18his father, who obviously brought him there, threatened his life. He was sat him down and smoked crack You can't make this [ __ ] up. Wait till you read the affidavit. He sat him down and smoked crack with them to calm him down and told him, "I need that reward money for my drug habit." He was a [ __ ] junkie. So, he needs the reward money and he gets his son to go in there and it's obvious if you watch the if you read the interrogation and his testimony that he's being led. They show him pictures of the apartment where this woman was allegedly beat. He's getting details wrong. They're they're um you know, he changed his story. Was telling conflicting versions of the story. So, at these post-conviction hearings where these men should have all been exonerated he gets on the stand and before he testifies, the judge says to him,

81:19"Have you been advised? Um do you have an attorney?" He said, "I don't think I need an attorney." And he tells William Avery, Jr., "Well, you need an attorney. We're going to appoint you an attorney because you're about to perjure yourself. Because you either did one of two things. You either lied and that put four men in prison or you're about to lie now to set them free. Think about the mind [ __ ] of this. So, this guy is coming to clear his conscience and the judge threatens him with prosecution. So, he gets an appointed attorney and they go and ask the prosecutor, "Will you give him immunity so he can tell the truth?" They say no. His defense attorney asks the judge, "Will you give him immunity so he can tell the truth?" And the judge says no. Oh god. And they tell him, "We're going to charge you with perjury if you tell the truth." He walks out of

82:24the courthouse, okay, after pleading the fifth and is interviewed by the local paper walking out of the courthouse. That's in the exhibits and he says, "They're all innocent. I made the whole thing up. I've been trying to tell the truth here, but I can't go to jail for whatever time they're going to give me." So, here you have a guy that is the son of a known junkie. He has been the prosecutors in this in Lorraine County have told um have been told by the FBI that he's not reliable, that he makes things up just to get money. He's been caught in lie after lie after lie and now he comes and wants to tell the truth and set these men free. And the crazy and and this judge puts him in this situation where he's he can't tell the truth or else he's going to get prosecuted. This is what happens in this country. This is the kind of thing that and these four men, two of

83:27them are out, two of them are serving life sentences. Al Cleveland's wife, Roberta Cleveland, saw this DA and he said he was going to do the right thing. He knew that the case was problematic and now, because he's worried about his own indictment, you know, he's not responding. So, what we're asking for is your listeners to go through and read this very detailed submission that I've made along with the Ohio Innocence Project, the Ohio Public Defenders, um and a great attorney um by the name of Kim Corral, who you actually you actually had a good laugh over one time, oddly enough, cuz she was at the White House when Kanye West was there. She was She was like apparently like standing over him smiling and you were like, "Look at this [ __ ] girl. She just thinks that like, how the [ __ ] did I get here?" She told me about it this morning.

84:24Did she feel that way? Like, how the [ __ ] did I get here? She probably did. She's super cool. I spoke to her this morning. She's a badass. And she was like, I've never met him, but he seems awesome. And he did have a good laugh at my expense when Kanye was in the White House. So, Yeah, there she is. That's her. Do you remember this? Uh kind of. Kind of. Uh it's so funny. But she's she's Kanye in the White House. I forgot that. She's awesome. But so, we're asking your listeners to go and read the exhibits. Read the submission. And then I have a contact page. Call J.D. Tomlinson. Write him a letter. Look, these four men Thank you, Jamie. These four men, um certainly were drug dealers. Al Cleveland, we've established Al Cleveland's alibi. John Edwards' alibi. Check this [ __ ] out. His alibi witness was Daymond John. From Shark Tank.

85:30He testified at his [ __ ] trial. Wow. At post-conviction hearings. Daymond John, back then, was a hardscrabble New Yorker. He was doing whatever he could to grind out. This is before FUBU. And he was friends with Al Cleveland. And Al needed to move to have a TV moved. And Daymond had like a gypsy cab service. A car service in New York. You lived in New York, right? You remember what it was like. You call a cab service. Yeah. A car service. And he was with Al Cleveland the day of these murders. Al Cleveland saw his probation officer the day after the murders. People saw him all over New York when the murders happened. John Edwards was with his girlfriend, his girlfriend's family throughout the night. From like, 10 at night till 3:00 in the morning. His girlfriend was pissed off at him because he was flirting with some

86:25girl in the bar. Um so, these guys have alibis. There is no question. They had absolutely nothing to do with this crime. This woman, Marshall Blakely, was murdered, right? Here's the one of the strangest facts in this case. She is seen all over town. All over town. At the time they claim that you that this that this guy, William Avery, originally claimed she was murdered. She's seen by family members, friends. She's looking for crack. She's um walking down the street way after this guy claims it happened. How was she murdered? She She was throat was cut and she was run over by a car. Oh. All right. So, we've talked about tunnel vision before and when the police think they have the guy, Yeah. they had a problem on their hands. They couldn't solve the crime and they have these guys that are drug dealers in the area. So, they become easy marks for this. There is a blade

87:21sitting in a diagram found right next to Marshall Blakely's body. They never tested it for DNA. They never collected it. They never tested it. It was at a time when DNA is the early '90s. DNA was around. Her roommate, Epps, Raymond Epps, is found a mile or two down the road with his throat slit and run over. Same thing. Same thing. No one's been charged. No one's been charged. It's an unsolved case as of this day. Why? Cuz they pinned it on these other guys. Because they pinned it on these guys and this guy, William Avery Jr., only came in with information about one of the murders. The The cases were so clearly connected that the medical examiner pointed it out. These people were killed in the same way. Why there isn't an outrage, a [ __ ] outrage about this case is is beyond me. When I got this case, I said, "There is no way what you're

88:25telling me is true. That this guy has come and wants to clear his conscience and tells you exactly what happened and the FBI told the prosecutors that he's a liar." And these guys are still two of them are still serving life sentences. And when you have to live stamped as a murderer, um even in the free world, you know, Al Cleveland is out and he's suffering. I mean, I had to listen to his wife um heaving. She couldn't get a hold of herself because she went down to J.D. Tomlinson's office and said, "You told And he said, "I can't now. I'm sorry. I've been indicted. The last time I exonerated someone, look what they did to me." Because he exonerated someone else and his political opponents attacked him. Um you know, human beings, we we we sometimes get in our own way because of outside forces, what we think other people are going to say, think. J.D.

89:34Tomlinson's been voted out. He's been wrongfully accused of a crime. It's time for him to to say, "You know what? I'm going to do the right thing." All I ask is actually a meeting with him. I want to meet with you between now and December 31st. Let me lay everything out for you as I have in this submission. He's now going to have it in his hands. Um he wouldn't answer my text messages. I'll give him a break. He was obviously going through some uh serious personal issues, being under indictment, running for re-election. Um this isn't easy thing. This is just doing the right thing. Um there is no way that you could look at this evidence, and this is why I think it's a good idea for rather than give uh a snapshot of a case and um have to rely on some process with these conviction integrity units behind closed doors where they run the reinvestigation.

90:36I like the public being able to get invested and look at the evidence themselves. Everyone loves a true crime story. Um so why not as part of this, let the public help make the case. And when they write a letter, they'll do it more forcefully, or they call him and say, "How could you ignore this?" So um I would just encourage everyone to go on Twitter and go to Free the Ohio Four and look at the evidence. And if you're ever uh I've gotten so many reach outs, "How can I make a difference? What can I do to make a difference?" This is it. You can write. You can call. Um you know, his his cell phone number is online because he was running for re-election. You know, let him know that the public is watching and expect him to do the right thing. Um you know, that's the the the best use I feel like I can make of publicly advocating for change is to

91:39help bring in the public and and give them a vested interest in trying to help. Well, this case is this is a just an amazing example. Right? I mean You said this is the craziest case you think you've ever had. don't think I've ever had a case ever where the uh the sole alleged eyewitness recants and then is threatened with jail time. Is actually put in jail after trying to extort the prosecutors. Where there's no forensic evidence and it was the most incomplete investigation I have ever seen. What would be the most logical thing to do if this guy says, "You know what? There was a beating at this house." What would be the most logical thing for police to do? There was a beating inside this apartment for 15 to 20 minutes and this woman was brutally beaten. What are the police going to do first? Scan for evidence. Go to the apartment. the apartment. Right.

92:46spray it for luminol. They don't see if there's You Luminol is a a chemical agent that brings out hidden blood. Um you know, they do nothing. They go and do a scan of the apartment, a visual scan and see nothing out of order. They don't test that knife and this is literally Was there evidence that the woman was beaten? No evidence Oh, there was evidence that she was beaten just not in that apartment. So, she was beaten before she was stabbed. There was There was an eyewitness that saw her that night with like a black eye beg begging for money for drugs. Oh. Okay. Yeah. After he allegedly saw her killed. Oh. So, it's um she was living a street life. Right. And she was There was, you know, suspicion that she was trading sex for money. Um so that she could feed her drug habit. So, um I just don't I don't I've never had a case where the FBI calls the prosecutor

93:49and says, "This guy is a liar and he goes in for reward money and for financial gain and he can't be trusted." Never had a case where a judge says, "If we're going to put you in jail. If you tell the truth, it's just as bad as putting these guys, you know, um you either told a lie to put them in jail or you're now telling a lie to free them. I mean, I just don't get it. I just don't get it. Um I don't understand why, you know, in in almost half of the cases where there has been an exoneration based on a sole eyewitness's testimony, over half the people recant. And the courts are very critical of these recantations. So, in other words, if someone makes up a story and then they come back and say, "Look, I made that up because my dad was threatening me, because the police threatened me." That's somehow viewed very, very critically. Whereas the initial allegation It's

94:55really easy to put someone in jail. Real easy. It's real difficult to get them out. So, do you think that's because the system is set up to not reverse convictions because it's bad for the prosecutor's record, it's bad for the confidence of the judicial system? Like All of the above. Yeah. I mean, why did Kamala Harris block um why did she block access to biological evidence from crime scenes? I think the rationale back then was, "Oh, well, it would lead to a flood of requests." So [ __ ] what? Right. So, let's from innocent people, perhaps. Or or people that want to you know, maybe they're guilty and they want to take a shot. Who knows? But isn't that worth the price of of you know, wrongfully incarcerating people? And you know, why is um It's It's There's so much politics that gets wound up in this. I don't I you know and and for the life of me I don't

95:57understand why you know it doesn't see the light of day more. I testified before the House Judiciary Committee in Florida in connection with the Perlman case when their DNA was stolen. All right, their DNA was stolen and they were wrongfully accused of a crime like Lori Perlman. And I testified before the House Judiciary Committee that as a private citizen should be a felony. All right, it was a misdemeanor. And you know it was one of my finer moments of oration I think because I got a 16-0 vote. And I had a really interesting discussion. It's recorded I should find it and and send it to you sometime but there were Republicans that asked me um "Hey, what is it that we can do to help you more? Because this story is crazy." And I said well there is um something that you can do as part of this bill we would like to make it not only a felony but give defense attorneys

97:11that have a good faith basis to believe that it's an alternative suspect's DNA the same right to collect that DNA as law enforcement. And if they make a showing to the court that they have a basis to believe that this is an alternative suspect. So I had a former um police officer who was a member of the Judiciary Committee say "Look, I was a cop and we used to do it all the time. And his exact quote was what's good for the goose is good for the gander and I think if you can make a good faith showing I want to support that." When it came time for the bill to go to the Senate, the guy that was sponsoring the bill um wasn't responding to me. I said, "We got overwhelming support not only to um get the bill, you know, made from a misdemeanor into a felony, but also to allow defense attorneys, criminal defense attorneys with an adequate showing um

98:09to collect the DNA of alternative suspects. And I said, "So, we'd like to add that amendment." And he just stopped responding to me. And finally, I got him on the phone and I said, uh "What what's the story? Why aren't you responding to this?" And he goes, "It's not happening, Josh. It's just not going to happen." And I said, "Why?" He goes, "I'm not going to go into that, but it's not happening." So, you know, obviously there was some political pushback to it. He just wasn't going to have that part of this bill. Um so, you know, I don't know what else you can do to push these issues, you know, other than get out there in the public and bang the drum about it and try to get people to pay attention. And this I think is a rare opportunity because it gives people um it allows them to invest in this. It allows them to see what the evidence is and actually,

99:07you know, write a letter and say, "Hey, I saw the testimony of this Secret Service agent, of this FBI agent under oath in these post-conviction proceedings. Why can't How What more would you need? You have the power to to exonerate these guys and end this 30-year-long nightmare for them. Why not do it?" Yeah, why not? Well, I'm hoping that this is one of those cases where the people will get activated. And uh the way you laid it out is so crazy. I mean, and with more evidence online that that people have access to, I'm sure there's a bunch of people are going to react to that. I'm curious to see what the response is going to be. Yeah, free the Ohio 4 @free the Ohio 4 on Twitter. And you know, like I'm not a big Twitter guy or I can't say Twitter anymore. I'm I'm not a big X guy. I still say Twitter. Yeah, so I mean, I guess I should get

100:00more into it. Yeah, we did. We We threw Hopefully that that that the numbers starts going up. will as soon as it gets published, I'm sure. We'll get a chance to see. It's going to be interesting to see how many bots lock onto it. Yeah, and then it would be my um it would be my dream to one day have the Ohio 4 sitting here and have a a toast. Yeah. Wow, what a story they have, huh? Yep. Jesus Christ. you know, the the sad part about it is is like I hope that people don't say, "Well, they were drug dealers at the time." And you know, again, that's not Because you commit one crime doesn't mean that doesn't mean you're a murderer. Also, like it's the circumstances are different for every [ __ ] human being. And for you to think that there's no way that I would do a crime, especially a crime like that. Like, are you sure? Are you sure if you were in their shoes,

101:02if you lived their life? You know, we We all like to think that everybody's life is the same as ours. We only have one life that we can kind of reference. When we look at other people's lives, we kind of imagine what it would be like to live their life. We don't know. People do desperate things in desperate times. Depending upon your environment, depending upon how you grew up, what your influences were, what trauma you experienced, whether you were incarcerated at a young age. No one has any understanding of that other than the people that get trapped into the system. They just don't. You know, it's the tough on crime. Yes, I think you should be tough on crime. I think you should arrest criminals and evil people that do terrible things that make society awful. Yeah, so do I. But also, you should definitely not arrest innocent people. You should

101:48definitely not imprison them and then punish someone who's trying to say, "Hey, the reason why these people are in jail is because I told a lie." Yeah, I mean, I don't get the threat of of punishing them. And you know, you um I I hope you have the the type of influence and following that just listen to that perspective, folks, right? You know, I have in the last few years developed a way deeper understanding of how relative trauma can be from individual to individual. I did not realize trauma that I had suffered until I started to travel those roads. Um and then how it can um impact behavior. So, I'm trying to make better decisions about how I judge things cuz I I don't want to say I don't make I'm not judgmental. We're all judgmental. Everyone's judgmental. You have to be. That's how you survive in life. Right. I have to form judgments, but I'm

102:48trying to make more educated judgments rather than judging someone based on, you know, not having a complete picture of what they might have been through. And also um not being able to put myself as best I can behind their eyeballs or in their brain. Right. It's hard unless you really make an investment. And I think the easy thing to do is to make a quick judgment and keep it moving. Yes. Right? And I think that words can be an excuse. The deep dive is too um much of a time investment, too difficult. And I've had to understand behaviors that I never thought I would ever have to consider. And I can tell you, at least in my experience, it forces you to become a more compassionate human being, a more understanding human being. You get to know yourself better. Um because if you're not just constantly trying to figure out more about yourself

103:49and others, what the [ __ ] are we doing here? Right. What the [ __ ] are we doing here? Yeah. Yeah, if you're not trying to figure out more about yourself, I mean, if you're the most enlightened person alive, tell us how you did it. You know? You don't You don't have any searching to do anymore? Tell us what you did. Cuz uh I never met anybody like that. I um I can't thank you enough um because again, it uh it's a rare occurrence these days that um to be unaffected by the outside noise. And I promise you um I'll do better in making sure that I'm a little bit more uh plugged in to the help people are getting when they get out, whether they have done it or not. We've had two recent resentencings. Um one guy was um paralyzed um and blinded in prison. And um he's in a wheelchair and he can't see. And part of the reason he was paralyzed

104:50is because of poor medical care that he was getting. It was a difficult decision to make initially because I said, "Shit, another resentencing, a guy that was found guilty." And then I saw the horrific medical treatment he was getting and I said, "You know, this just isn't right. You don't just throw out a human being like this. And what threat is he in a wheelchair, blind?" Um but, you know, I have to do a good job of making sure that people are getting the attention and care they need. It takes resources and you know, we're thankful to everybody that continues to reach out and support any of these causes. The Perlmutter Center, um you know, the Midwest Innocence Project is a great one. The Ohio Innocence Project, those are all satellite projects, but the Freedom Clinic at the Perlmutter Center, we've had some terrific, um, folks, including the Perlmutters, that

105:42have given us the resources we need to make a difference. So, I just I have your, um, you're you're in my I'm in your debt. eternally. You're not. You're not. Um, I appreciate you very much. And, um, my thing about the outside noise is, um, you should never put any, uh, effort or time or focus into something that has no net benefit. There's no benefit in the outside noise. It doesn't do you any especially if you are an introspective person. If you're a person thinks everything you do is awesome, maybe it's good to see people [ __ ] on you. Maybe it's good to see that some people don't like you. Maybe it's good. Maybe it's good to hear other people's perspectives. Kind of like you put your ego in check. But, if you're a person that's introspective, and I know you are, if you're a person that is hard on yourself when you make

106:34mistakes, no one's harder on me than me. I'm very hard on me. Oh, I know someone that's that's as hard on themselves as you. He's sitting across from you. But, it's, um, course correct. You know, if you if you look inward and you don't like what you're doing or what you've said or who you are, don't do that again. One of the best things I did in the wake of this whole Sheldon Johnson um, incident is I turned my comments off on Instagram and turned my account private. Um, I think I'll make it public again after today because I want to generate support for the Ohio four. Um, and but turning comments off is a nice thing because you can't believe the good stuff or the bad stuff. You just stay forward. Especially for for in the public. The good stuff you can get what they call audience capture. You know, you have enough people leaning

107:27you in a certain direction or giving you praise for a certain thing, you start doing more of that. You know, and this is a manipulative tactic that's used online both for and against people. Hey man, look. When I was on my way over here today, uh I was walking into the Uber and a guy at the hotel goes, "I hope you're going to talk that talk over on the over on the J over on the JRE." And I said, "Yeah, I am." And it turns out that he went to high school with Rodney Reed who's on death row here in Texas. And I got into a interesting conversation with him. He's like, "Man, his older brother could pop and lock." I said, "Yeah." He goes, "Man, this [ __ ] was popping and locking all the time." He's telling me about him breakdancing and he's like, "No, for real, you know, shining a light on this stuff gives a lot of people out here hope."

108:23And I told him that, you know, I wrote a letter to the legislator here in Texas that's reconsidering that case. Um so, it's just real cool, man, to get um to get people behind it that really care about this stuff and, you know, the public can really help out. You don't have to be a lawyer, you don't have to be a psychologist, you don't have to be a therapist. You know, pressure does break pipes, so Yeah. reaching out to JD Thompson and making noise between now and December 31st. you said, talking about things on this podcast have actually exonerated people. Yeah, I thought this one was probably Let me think real carefully about about the next Yeah, I know. Jamie and I were both talking about it. You think he's going [ __ ] You certainly can. I mean, you definitely can. Hey, listen. Next time around. And if it's the Ohio four, great.

109:22listen. The guys that have been on here are all thriving. Bruce Bryan works at the Queens Defenders office. He has not been without challenges. Trust me. Um but he's actually going I'll leave you with this. Bruce is going to um hope hope that parole lets him cuz we're still working on his full exoneration even though he was granted clemency on on the innocence claim. Bruce is going to Nairobi and Uganda um to speak to prisoners there. Oh. And he's a climate advocate for the Queens Defenders. Derek continues to be um a whirlwind of positive activity. He's just a amazing. He's getting people out left and right. Robert um Robert Johnson who we had on is continuing to do amazing things down in New Orleans. Um and and all of them are just thriving. They're doing well. Not enough attention is given to the the happy endings, right? Then we give to the bad stuff, but

110:28Of course. I mean, that's just how people are, you is that? Um you know what? The first of all, they're afraid of crime, you know? So they they highlight the the instances where things are bad and things do go bad. And they don't they don't want to look at the disgusting aspects of the legal system. They want to People want to live life through rose-colored glasses and have this perspective that the the bad people go to jail. But it's not just about crime. Most of the headlines that get the most clicks are about someone having a [ __ ] affair, somebody dying. It's not a lot of triumph in the news. Well, people like when other people's lives suck cuz it makes them not think about the suck of their own life. That's why they like it when a celebrity falls, like a P Diddy gets arrested, because they see these people living these lives

111:20they could never imagine. Like yachts and Rolls-Royces and all that [ __ ] And then they see them get taken down. They're like, "Yeah." Because they were, you know, envious. And it's also like it's a part of our culture to celebrate wealth in the most disgusting and extravagant ways, you know? Like I mean, how many social media personalities have emerged just complete just all about look at all the stuff I have. Look at all the things I have. Look at all the famous people I'm hanging out with. Look at all the girls. Look at the yacht. Look at the car. Look at the jet. Look at the this. Look at the that. Look at all the things you can't get. And when those people get got, people love it. You know who You know who uh folks are probably clamoring gets got? Who? If that's the basis, and I don't agree. Who's that [ __ ] guy who's always got

112:10his shirt off He's taking pictures on yachts and shooting machine guns and uh Dan Bilzerian. Oh, man. Yeah. I'd like to I'd like to peek into his brain one day. Mhm. Yeah, there's probably a lot going on in there. It's uh it's interesting how people do become famous for that, though. It's like showing your stuff makes you famous. Showing a life that other people can't really imagine ever living. But think of the hypocrisy and the and the inner conflict and turmoil that that exposes. Mhm. So, in other words, we want people to fail. That's somehow innate in many of us. It makes us feel better about ourselves. Yet, you will have 3 million followers or 10 or 15 following someone that and I'm not talking about that guy. Whoever. Mhm. Who is clearly just selling their looks or their lifestyle or whatever it is. So yet we're drawn to it Mhm. and we want to watch it. Mhm.

113:16And then when the person fails, we want to [ __ ] devour them to the point where they're a carcass laying in the street. Sure. Celebrity marriages and divorces, that's another big one. Love it when celebrities get divorced. Haha. Haha, you're miserable, too. Do you love it? No. No, I I People love it. I I find it fascinating when people keep getting married and keep getting divorced. Cuz it's god damn, how many times can J. Lo get married before the next guy's like, "Hey, I don't know if this is going to work out." Yeah, is it really Ben Affleck that's the problem? Who's the problem? Well, he's certainly a problem as well. That guy Marc Anthony seems like a nice [ __ ] guy. Seems like a sweetheart. But she married a a bunch of dudes. But, you know, whatever. She's obviously a a lot of work. I said, you want a diva? Good luck.

114:00That requires a lot of work. I just want to I just want to understand it all. I just want to like me me and my brother uh sometimes go, "What's it all about?" It's definitely not all about caring whether or not J. Lo gets divorced again. You know what I find difficult? I've been playing with this idea in something that I'm writing right now. And it couldn't be more oppression than than right now is the this notion of what the truth is. I don't know what Like we we had it happen to us right here. Are Are some of the swing states requiring ID? Or are all of them? It's hard to keep a grasp on reality and the truth these days cuz there's information Right. that is intravenously injected into your veins, Mhm. it seems like. So I have a hard time knowing what's true anymore. Well, the the news itself outright lies. It's not like a conversation like we

115:01have or Jamie checks it in real time. And I saw a thing that said the swing state or the uh the states that required no voter ID are the ones that she won. She won other ones as well, but when you have the news saying things, so they have researched it. They do know that it's a lie. This is not like a live conversation like we're having where I didn't know we were going to talk about that at all, nor nor did you. It just spontaneously came up. These people are putting narratives out there that are just flat-out lies, and they're doing it all the time. I mean, Obama did it during the campaign where he repeated that lie about Donald Trump talking about white supremacists saying there are very fine people on both sides. So, just a flat-out lie. was the the Unite the Right. Well, it was all about the statue. The statues of Civil War people being taken

115:54down, and he's saying, "You I'm not talk He literally said, 'I am not talking about white supremacists and the KKK. They should be condemned.'" He said, "I'm talking about people that came Did he say that in the same Oh, yeah. Oh, you can see it. weird. But, go to I never known that. companion Instagram, cuz on that page, there is what Obama said, and then on the same video, there is what Trump actually said. And it's disgusting. It's a disgusting lie. And it's a guy who's as And he's talking about George Washington. He said, "George Washington had slaves." Said, "Thomas Jefferson, we're taking down Thomas Let's play it." So, you could see it here. said that there were very fine people on both sides of a white supremacist rally. John Adams didn't And you had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had

116:56people in that group, excuse me. Excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of to them a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name. Well, George Washington was a slave owner. Was George Washington a slave owner? So, will George Washington now lose his status? Are we going to take down Excuse me. Are we going to take down Are we going to take down statues to George W- How about Thomas Jefferson? What do you think of Thomas Jefferson? You like him? Okay, good. Are we going to take down the statue cuz he was a major slave owner. Now, we going to take down his statue. So, you know what? It's fine. You're changing history. You're changing culture and you had people and I'm not talking about the neo-Nazis and the

117:47white nationalists because they should be condemned totally. But, you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists, okay? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly. Now, That's it. See, see, see, that's crazy. I have never I have never seen that last part of it. Yeah. So, here So, here is my struggle with the truth on full display. I've never seen that part because I The news has said that lie over and over and over and over and over again. That the news, the mainstream corporate controlled news that wanted this narrative that Donald Trump was a Nazi, said that over and over and over again. They repeated it. They compared him up until the election. Joy Reid was literally comparing him to Stalin, Hitler, and Mussolini. And spent a whole piece describing right-wing dictators that he is going to be a

118:43right-wing dictator just like Hitler, just like Stalin. This is the lie of the media. So, this is one of the reasons why it's so hard to tell the truth. It should be illegal to do that. It should be illegal to say that. Because it's not true and you're changing the perspective of millions of people, especially low information voters that look at Obama like a thing from the past when time was sane, when the world was normal. A brilliant guy who was the president. If this brilliant guy is willing to lie for in front of everybody. here's the thing. There's no question. They all lie. Trump Trump included. We talked about that earlier. He lies also. That this is like the the problem. did he lie about Biden and about what what Biden did? Did he lie about any of that? No. He's lied plenty. I'm sure. For sure, but in the context of a campaign where you're completely

119:45distorting the perspective of the person you're running against. Not just who they are, but what they've done and what they've said and what they stand for. He does the same thing though. But did he do that with Biden? Um I believe he did. he do it? Um I think that there were many times where he would accuse him of having created the problem at the border, that it was all his creation. People don't seem to remember that when Trump was president his border policies of separating families at the border was not great. It was not great, but do you understand that Obama had those exact same policies? disagreeing with that. I'm just saying you can distort just what they do with children when children are when a parent is arrested, they separate the families. Um it was a it was that that happened under Obama, but under Trump it wasn't just separating the children. It was

120:43separating them for indefinite periods. So, is there a difference in the way Obama handled it in the separation? I not going to speak to something I don't know. Right, so that's a problem, right? So it's a problem if you're accusing of that. Here's the Here's the thing. I think they all lie. I don't have I don't I didn't follow it closely enough to say. they all lie, too, but there's not a thing like that that I can point to where he was saying something about Biden that was factually incorrect. Here's the thing that turned me off completely about the election this time and why I said, "Fuck it, I'm voting for Jill Stein." A physician that probably is the least qualified of anyone. Only as like my form of a protest. You know, Kamala Harris during the debate said that there is not a single Um it was some remark like there's not a

121:27single American soldier deployed and and then I saw videos of American soldiers in a war zone watching it like a in parallel reality. I said, "What the [ __ ] she talking about?" Dan Crenshaw post about that? Where are we right now? They were in a [ __ ] foxhole or in a tent. Crenshaw posted all of the soldiers all the the numbers that we have that See if you can find that post. It's on his Instagram in response to that. You know, Dan Crenshaw who lost his eye in war, who was Navy SEAL. the one that was circulating the clip about of me being critical of her. It was a good clip. Yeah. I don't I stand by it. Yeah. And you were correct. I mean, and then the crazy thing is you you had a conversation with her about that. Yeah. Well, it was on Zoom and she couldn't answer a question then and she can't answer a question now. She still

122:16refused to answer a [ __ ] question. That was the most frustrating thing. I mean, how about saying, "Look, obviously what happened at the border is a crisis. It was not handled well. Here is what I plan to do different." It's It's outside of of at least her um capacity or willingness to do something like that. But it was also the complicit nature of that the the the media was in on it because they were fact-checking Trump constantly. They didn't fact-check her on that, something that should be immediately fact-checked. during a debate. I agree with that. First of all, how did you not know? How do you not know that? You're either lying or you don't know that we have troops deployed in war zones. Maybe you're right. Maybe it is that Trump repeats things that he heard that are moronic and nonsensical sometimes and that takes away from the great he can do.

123:11He definitely does that, right? talking about people eating dogs and cats and the election being rigged, all sort of baseless [ __ ] takes away from the fact that, you know, the things that stick out to me and it's like, "Get out of your own way, bro." He pardoned Jack Johnson. He um he pardoned um one of my clients. I think that he he has done more and cared more about criminal justice reform than certainly than any other president in my lifetime. one ever wants to highlight the good things. Yeah. That that guy has done. That's why I just did it. And I I just it's frustrating to me because it's like just don't listen to the last thing everyone told you because you can be great. You can I mean, the fact that he does what he wants and says what he wants and gets elected Look at this. This is what Dan Crenshaw responded with, "No US troops active

124:04combat zones? Question mark. How did ABC let Kamala get away with that during the debate? US sailors and Marines are fighting off Houthi attacks in Yemen. Over 3,400 troops are engaged in Iraq and Syria. We have forces in Western Africa battling terrorists. Just this year three US soldiers were killed and 40 injured in Jordan by an Iranian-made drone. Nearly 1,000 troops are still in deployed in Syria and 2,500 remain in Iraq under Operation Inherent Resolve." So, that's crazy. Yeah, it is crazy. thing to say, but it also just shows you how corrupt the relationship is between the media and what we get to see. It's corrupt. There's a bunch of people that had decided that they were going to fact check Trump continually and not fact check her. And they were doing this because they wanted her to look better than him because they wanted her to win.

124:59Yeah, I mean, listen. The most I have I have the and this is why I mentioned, you know, it's hard to know what the truth is. Right. The reason why I posted all the exhibits, the reason why I put the letter up, and the reason why I put the contact information up is that when when you have a transcript, um and you have uh you know, actual documentary evidence, that's hard to argue with. It's not a sound bite. It's not a clip. So, I feel like maybe part of what appeals to me about this work is trying to get closer to the truth. A truth that is a bit more provable. You know, I would probably been very happy as a mathematician if I was any good at math. I stink at it. But, I I think that um there is it's very difficult to understand, you know, I feel like I'm sitting here and I feel manipulated by the fact that I never And And it's really on me that I

125:59didn't go and watch the entirety of that comment. Right. Because I literally don't think I've ever listened to the part where he says, "Obviously, the neo-Nazis and you know, the people that were there for the wrong reasons need to be condemned." You know, when I was watching recently, I was talking to to the great Debinney about this. He's He pointed out to me that comment about um Liz Cheney. Mhm. And then, he's like, "Go watch the full clip." Right. It's another one. watched the full clip and I was like, It's outrageous. "This is so out of [ __ ] context. So, then you start to wonder, well, how much is my opinion of him been formed by um my concern about other people lashing out at me. I mean, you should hear the [ __ ] I got when I um when I spoke ill of Kamala Harris by, you know, I guess call them the left. I I you know, and it was

127:00like infuriating to me, you know? So, I don't a politics to me is too it's too much of, you know, you have to serve so many different interests that you sort of forget who you are Yes. and what you stand for. Yes. what turns me off about it. And, you know, I don't think that that'll change. That's why I sort of shifted to This is the most I've talked about politics in probably 5 years. But, that's why I've shifted to let me just put my head down and get to work on what I can work on. Well, I think that's very practical. Um I think what you said is very important for people to understand that a lot of what people say, they say it because they don't want people to attack them. They say it because they think that if they say it, it will clear them. They'll be okay. If you say you support X, you might not even support X, but if you say you

127:52support X, you're not going to get attacked and the right people will leave you alone or agree with you and appreciate you or praise you. Thank you for saying that. There's a lot of that out there. There's a lot of people that don't speak their mind. Do you know how many artists that have reached out to me that are like [ __ ] hippies, man? Like like artists, like musicians, comedians that thanked me for endorsing Trump because they can't do it. They said they want to, but they don't want to be attacked. They can't say it. They think the country's going in the wrong direction. They think that this control of social media by the government, which we would have had pretty much fully if it wasn't for Elon buying Twitter, that this is a dangerous precedent to set. Whether it's a right-wing government or a left-wing government. And that what

128:40you see that's happening in the UK where people are being imprisoned for tweets and Facebook posts. Yeah, in in the UK in the UK is the part that's mind-bending about it to me. Mind-bending. The whole thing is nuts and it's a dangerous path that we were on. We were on that path. Trump has vowed to have free speech become a very important part of what he's standing for. And that this censoring of information needs to stop. And that we need to stop all government influence in what people have to say. Yeah, look, I that alone. That's that's that shouldn't be as revolutionary as it is. I know, it should be a core tenant of what I mean, it's essentially the first amendment. and I and I think it's so transferable to what I do in this context because a lot of the the reluctance of of prosecutors not to do the right thing or what their conscience tells them is

129:39the fear of the backlash. Yes. How will it hurt my chances in a re-election? What will it And so that's what I hate about politics is you serve so many masters. Yeah. And um It's a dirty business, man. It's a dirty and you got to have you got to have nuts of steel. Or you have to be a [ __ ] sociopath. It's either or, you know? You have to be a a blindly ambitious sociopath who can weave your way through these sort of social and political relationships and to get to the top. For what? For what What do you I mean, imagine if one of those person does wind up becoming president that has no no real thought or no real care about the country, no real ambition other than the the blind serving of their own success. Well, I think that that's what for It's hard to explain if you didn't live in New York. For people that are just like, "Oh my god,

130:39what's the next 4 years going to be like?" And you know, what like it like it's a funeral. Like get up and do something all 4 years that you think is going to help make society better. You do that. Whether it's um getting out and knocking on doors and making your for whatever you're passionate about. Not just when an election is coming up, but get out and knock on doors, get out and get involved in some organization that you believe in, do something that you think will help lend itself to bettering society in some way. What happens is every 4 years there's this polarization and people get on one side or the other and they complain and [ __ ] and then they wallow in it too often for too long a time. I think that the people that actually make the most change happen are the ones that can sit and talk with people that might have

131:35different beliefs than them and don't make them other than Absolutely. Right? I mean anytime I've made an emotional decision in in business, personally, it's never gone well for me. Right. So, people are going to have different points of view than you. I was talking to my cousin about it. And I was trying to help her explain that just because you voted for Trump, that doesn't make you bad or I said sh- you know, her whole thing was, "Well, if you have daughters, there's no way you can vote for him." I said, "Here's the fundamental flaw on how you're looking at this. There are some people that are pro-life. Okay? That doesn't make them wrong. That makes you have a different opinion than them. You have a disagreement. And if the basis of your vote is that you're pro- choice and they're pro-life, okay, have a disagreement. You know, um

132:35I don't I just don't understand how a singular issue like that, and I understand that listen, I understand it from a woman's perspective. Yeah, I'm a father of two daughters. Yeah. I uh I talked to my wife about it often. Um you know, especially going to Florida where the laws on abortion ain't the same as they are in New York. Um and I um I understand it from a woman's perspective completely, and I actually disagree with you know, overturning Roe v. Wade, but you cannot be that myopic. You just can't because if you're that myopic, you're going to then find yourself in a corner on one issue. And life is a little bit more um robust than that, isn't it? It's more nuanced. Yeah. Yeah, that was the better word. Yeah. It is more nuanced. Well, listen my brother, I love you to death. I appreciate what you do. I think the world's a better place

133:29because of what you do. I really do, and I think you've changed a lot of people's perspective on the legal system, and I'm glad that we didn't let what happened with Sheldon change that. And uh I think there's just so much more great work to be done. Well, by my continued profound gratitude um to continuing to let me tell these stories, I promise the next time I bring a guest on, they will be well they will be they will be vetted. Yeah. The guests will be vetted a lot more thoroughly. And you know, it There's no way you could have known. There's no way I could have known, and you know, it was interesting because I was for 48 hours I felt what it was like I felt what it was like to be a headline. Mhm. Um and then I was like, this sucks. For the wrong reasons. It was like I know you were in a dark place, but I'm glad you got out of it.

134:23Yeah, and it's not about me. Yeah. And I appreciative of this and you know, if that can't shake the foundation of this forum. I think we're going to just keep on making great changes happen and hopefully we we free the Ohio four and keep on moving. Yeah, and I hope we do do a podcast one day with them. Keep loving. Keep loving you too. All right.