Krystal Ball & Saagar Enjeti

00:04Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan day all right now the first time we did this my hair was [ __ ] up the whole time and neither one of y'all told me about it so I hope we're better friends now you just don't say a word is that recorded did you record that we should leave that part in I was just like you look beautiful Crystal watched out and I was like Fu too you yeah okay number one it's different number two I had like this piece was like protruding I've been bald like shaved head for like 13 years now or something like that so I don't even think about it like your hair's [ __ ] up like who cares you know I get it though I get it sorry it was a real betrayal but it's okay we we're moving forward we're moving well it's really on him cuz you and I were just getting to

00:58know each other so it was really his fault no dude you guys are a very unusual combination it's very funny because like having someone who's on the right and having someone's on the left it's usually like some sort of a formulaic thing it's like you know what I think of Hannity and Colmes do you remember that oh God because it was fake that was the thing it is it's kind of hard to describe what we do because if you say like you know we're on the right and we're on the left it does sound like this sort of thing rock and roll remember yes or like like that terrible CNN show Crossfire is the other thing who was on that one well the original one was Tucker balaal Tucker [ __ ] there were two and then they did the reboot of it which was was Tucker was on the right and tuck back on the left and Tucker used to have bow tie

01:52on that was when he had bow he's never lived down that like people still in their head I feel like that's the picture they get of Tucker even though he hasn't worn it yeah just like like seared into people's memories that this is there's something about bow TI there's Crossfire yeah there it is oh that's a Carville and there's the the infamous John Stewart when he just destroyed destroyed that yeah and then they did the remake with uh n Gingrich oh my remember that oh Elliot Spitzer was on there right the this that was another terrible show new G and Van Jones that was Stephanie cutter who was one of the most unlikable people ever created and then Essie CU is actually a long time she she and I were uh at MSNBC together so she and I are friends so I can't say anything bad about her she's very nice person I love her yep so anyway I don't know who that

02:48other lady is stanie cutter she works for Obama she didn't yeah I think was she a Hillary person I can't remember yeah anyway it was bad it was bad anyway that's not what we're doing I hope what is really no you're not doing that at all but what is really fascinating is that having these long form discussions like you guys do uncensored and undirected right without uh an executive leaning over your shoulder and telling you what to do it's the best way to discuss things and when I get to hear from a reasonable person on the left and a reasonable person on the right who respect each other it's like it gives me hope like hey we can all get along like we can sort through what good and what's bad it's possible that's that is actually the core goal of the show because I mean we are living through incredibly like politically fraught

03:42times where you have a lot of people whose whole business model is to persuade you that like half the country hates you and is destroying the country and it's existential and we're headed to Civil War and so I feel like if Sager and I can you know agree on some things which we do and have debates on topics that are you know difficult and tense and fraught and be able to do that day after day in a way that is respectful that's like not just trying to score points but actually trying to learn from each other you know I hope it makes a small difference in the political atmosphere yeah I mean what I'm most proud of in like in our analytics is like half the audience is genuinely right and half the audience is genuinely left and one of the pitches that we give our people we're like hey if you're going to support us like you're not

04:26going to agree all the time so you're almost conditioning people to be like hey this is a message that I'm buying into and I think the most impactful like sometimes you don't meet people or whatever and they're like man you know I watch the show with my dad and I'm just like Dad like crystals what I believe and dad is like I'm with Sager on some things and we sit down and we talk about it afterwards and like that we building that for people that's so important man cuz that is one of the dangers in Independent Media there's a lot that's so exciting about Independent Media right now I mean you see the traditional media is just like dying the ratings are failing people are abandoning them in drug obviously trust has completely fallen off a cliff but there are some pitfalls in Independent Media too and one of them is that you develop an audience that is

05:11one ideology that just wants to hear one thing and is there to hear what they already think about things and so I think because of the fact that we have different opinions and our different you know political ideologies that has sort of protected us against having an audience that is there for any one particular idea and you know we'll see sometimes like people go oh you guys said this and that and we disagree with you and it's like you know what if this isn't the thing for you you owe it to yourself to go somewhere else where you're going to hear every day I guess whatever it is that you want to be told from within your bubble well I think you guys have reached a point where I have to give you the speech and it's like you got to stop paying attention to the comments yeah it's so true you been G the speech for like three years I've

05:54been giving you this spe I'm telling you I'm right I'm right on this you are K Kyle actually preaches this to me all the time too Kyle's Kyle's indoctrinated yeah he's he's fully bought in he's fully on board with the philosophy it's so true though it's true yeah it's like you feel like you should engage with your fans and everything like that but you just got to tell them look I love you guys just I'm not reading your [ __ ] I love you I love you I do this for you I hope you enjoy it I'm happy that you enjoy it I'm not reading your [ __ ] the hardest is whenever it's like people who pay like help support the show and they'll be like I pay $10 a month and like I pay you to represent I'm just like all right man like then maybe you should cancel because that's actually not what we're here for read not reading

06:36that I'm not engaging I'm not [ __ ] you and you I'm not going to do that not will get in your head too it will and it will mess with you in terms of like just your Clarity of thought so 100% I mean the tradeoff is sometimes people do have good critiques valid critiques good ideas whatever so you you know there is a trade off there some of that ultimately I I also buy into the the Rogan philosophy of just don't read the [ __ ] you guys get bigger and bigger the numbers become more and more untenable it just becomes ridiculous you can't engage and it's also we we are creatures of community and when there is any negativity that negativity gets highlighted so much more so than positivity and by the way you don't need positivity you're good you guys know you're good you guys you know what I'm saying like you're objective you neither

07:30one of you has is crazy you know you yeah but you're not you don't have a distorted perception of what you do you guys do great you do great work you try hard you can't like those little negative ones they will get in your [ __ ] head because we're creatures of community and that person that you don't know that lives in [ __ ] Indiana that is on meth and is like really mad because you know the progressive in her District doesn't represent her views and she's like typing the meanest [ __ ] [ __ ] like even though you know that that's nonsense this is probably a crazy person that's in your head now you know the toughest thing actually was when we and by doing the show is actually by disconnecting from the broader like cuz in traditional media the way it works is like we used to go on Fox uh when you're

08:14in fox is like an ecosystem you're in the Green Room there's all the other conservatives that are around you and then there's all these other people who work in for conservative Inc like conservative world and you're not if you can't dissent and actually the best most rewarding part of our show is we're not connected to the system anymore I'm like I don't give a [ __ ] like they're like I don't really appreciate you you know Trump's person or whatever some Trump flacky is like you didn't say this about President Trump I'm like I don't give a [ __ ] I'm like what are you going to do you're going to take me off Fox I don't care I don't care I don't actually want to be on Fox like I could be on my own show but being disconnected from like the broader DC machine it totally frees you up for conversation on stop the Ste

08:48anything anything that's controversial and not be like I think this is [ __ ] I I truly 100% guys I believe this is [ __ ] I see commentators out there who I know don't believe what they're saying and are saying it because they have to they have to Main maintain their context they maintain their salary that's the corruption that's and that's like a self-imposed corruption if you're doing that online yes and some people are doing it online and you guys are not and I really appreciate it I know that I'm watching you guys I'm getting like real opinions like I'm getting wellth thought out informed opinions and you know and you guys are going to be cool to each other I mean we take it we do take it really seriously and I think we take it this year even more so than ever um you know our biggest podcast download and our

09:36biggest YouTube numbers last year were right when Russia invaded Ukraine and you know you talk about a high stake situation where it's very difficult to sort through all the propaganda to really figure out what's going on and you know we were trying our best to do that in real time and the fact that so many people came to us to try to understand this conflict and what the US's role in it what it should be that really meant a lot number one but it also I think put on both of our shoulders like a real sense of all right we got to make sure we're on top of our show we got to read as much as we possibly can we need to go back and look at like Russian nuclear Doctrine and just go as deep as we possibly you know are capable of on this topic because um there are a lot of people who tell us we're we're it in terms of the news that they consume so we have shifted to

10:26focusing you know we still do like fun and stupid and silly topics or whatever and indulge whatever our little little hobby horse interests are but we've shifted the program somewhat to do more hard news um because we care about it because it's important because there are a lot of people who are looking to us to understand what's going on in the world and also because ultimately you know if there's going to be an alternative to the you know liars and propagandists at places like CNN and fox do and MSNBC and some of the mainstream print Outlets as well you're going to have to have that kind of you know serious coverage of hard news events that people feel like they can trust what you're presenting them and listen we say all the time M sometimes we're going to [ __ ] up sometimes we're going to be wrong about some we're going to predict some it

11:12doesn't happen whatever that is going to happen 100% of the time but what you can count on us for is we are always going to come back we're going to correct it we're going to own up to the mistakes and we are trying from the beginning our very best to sort through what the truth of the situation is yeah every six months I do a monologue I'm like here's everything I got wrong I was like totally wrong about this love it too like here's what here was my thought process at the time I'm like I didn't think this was going to happen but man Ukraine has been a doozy I'm like we've said some controversial [ __ ] over the last couple years I've never experienced the level of push back than going against the Ukraine narrative that is like number one the most controversial topic I have ever seen discussed yet in in politics that my favorite moment of

11:53the beginning of the Ukraine conflict was Candace Owens having a Twitter battle with the New York Times oh yes the New York Times says to cace Owens like where are you getting your information from that that they're corrupt Ukraine yeah and she goes your newspaper and then she puts all these different links that show all the different stories from as recently as 2017 that talked about the immense corruption and you like what the [ __ ] is wrong with you guys you're supposed to be the New York Times this is this is one of the primary ways that we've been GID in this is like and it just came out I don't know if you saw this you probably did that sski fired a bunch of his cabinet officials over corruption and it was like they were taking these fancy vacations to Europe one of them was accused of basically overcharging the

12:49military for meals and remember I mean the amount that we have sent to Ukraine propping up not only their military but their government their economy Etc when they're taking that money that's like coming directly out of the US taxpayer pocket and nobody reported on any of this until delinsky fired people and then it then we were allowed to be like yeah there's some problems with corruption there maybe a little bit maybe we should like worry a little bit about where the weapons are going and what exactly is happening there but before then you weren't allowed to say it even better the times actually change his headline they were like Ukraine uh go corruption drive and it was like zalinsky aims to Stamp Out corruption just to make it a little bit less like the appearance I have some fun numbers for everybody this is from a past

13:29monologue I've gone us Aid currently at100 billion is double what the entire rest of the world has given to Ukraine in one year surpasses what we gave the Afghan military in 20 years the total amount to Ukraine now exceeds all US military aid to the country of South Vietnam between 1956 and 1975 wow a hundred billion and listen I think what Russia did was wrong I think it's an atrocity I think the Ukrainian cause is just but the total lack of debate the lack of willingness to say like hey when we got into this what you sold to the American people as you going to provide defensive weapons only so Ukraine could defend itself now we're sending tanks now we're sending it just came out longer range missiles that these were things that were totally off the table and then suddenly step by step by step not only are they on the table but you're not

14:25allowed to question it you're not allowed to say hey guys are we setting ourselves up for world War I here which is something the president himself was talking about not very long ago and yet no debate and that's the thing that you know however you feel about the Ukraine conflict and you know the buildup to it and how we got here and all of those things I think at the very base level the total lack of an ability to have dissent and debate and understand the potential consequences of what we're doing that is [ __ ] terrifying because we are talking about a nuclear armed superpower that we are engaged in a foxy war with and you're basically not allowed to say hey how does this end what do we need to do to try to get to negotiated settlement here how do we avoid having a conflict with this nuclear arm superpower World War III

15:15seems like a bad thing to have on the table right now and you guys are one of the few voices of reason that will say that that agree both on both sides of the fence and this is this is a thing that I there's a lot of videos out now and I don't know if these people get these videos but I get them I get these videos of horrible War encounters yes in in in Russia and Ukraine it's it's horrendous and it brings me to this thing that I I think about a lot because I think about things that other people do for a living and their jobs and I think about like they live in a world that I don't understand you know there's like the like I'm fascinated by professional chess players they live in a world that I don't understand cuz I don't play I love the fact I kind of know how the pieces move but I've really only played like maybe 10 times my whole life yeah I

16:08there's a thing that people have it's a quality of being a human being you only know what you know and Other Things become like these sort of like uh ethereal narratives they're not necessarily real and war is one of them yes war is one of them there's a thing that people the way my friends who've served talk about war is so titanically different than the way people who ideologically support or disavow it like you don't know what the [ __ ] you're talking about if you say there's no need for a military you're crazy we are going to get subjugated someone will come here with men with guns if you take away all the guns that everybody has and no more military we're [ __ ] and if you don't think that it's CU if you'd never gone to the the dark parts of the world or you've never gone on telegram I'll send you some videos I saw I saw a guy get

17:00killed with a Hammer yesterday Jesus I yeah this is so important for people to understand which is that we are 75 years removed from what war on the European continent actually looks like and you know Joe I'm the same way I've been on [ __ ] Live Leak you know since I was like 12 which probably bad for you but terrible for I my girlfriend's like what are you watching I'm like what and it's just like a beheading or something my wife they come into my office and I have to pause videos and I'm like you really want to see this you really know watch they can't handle it I can't handle it I can't handle it I don't I don't do I don't do well with blood the point though is that you know we have to try and convey this to people and just say like hey when you're on Twitter and you're like hey you know [ __ ] you you

17:39know anybody who who's against the N you're like this is not a joke like hundreds of thousands of Russians are dead hundreds of thousands are ukrainians are dead millions are displaced we have no idea what the endgame is like and you know just what Crystal was saying I have this thing where you know the fight club line like on a long enough timeline I mean like on a long enough timeline Ukraine is getting everything that it wanted so originally it was like no fly zone and Biden was like I'm being responsible I'm saying no well first they ruled out Patriot missile systems Patriot missile systems are now on the way to Ukraine they ruled out tanks now tanks are on the way to Ukraine right now there's a article talking about how f-16s they're thinking about sending Pentagon f-16s Biden says no now right exactly he was saying no to tanks like five days before

18:21they send tanks and here's here's the thing he doesn't remember that though you're right and you got to you got to dig deep too like for example originally we're like we just want Ukraine to take back what it originally lost and listen I if I was Ukrainian I'd be pushing for the same thing I have 100% sympathy they are not in the wrong here they've been invaded by a foreign and aggressive power that said like we got to think about what's best for us right now there's a New York Times article about us warms to helping Ukraine take back Crimea I'm like well hold on a [ __ ] second I'm not saying it's just that Russia took Crimea in 2013 but they formerly anex it and if you ask people in Russia Crimea is Russia so if they use if Ukraine uses a pentagon provided F-16 to bomb Crimea now what like now that's a violation of Russian nuclear

19:06Doctrine they've updated their nuclear Doctrine by the way to not even say it's defensive they can say they can use it in any capacity that Vladimir Putin wants to that was a significant change um if you look in the history of the way that the great superpowers actually uh consider their own nuclear First Strike use it's something that is considered Ironclad and then boom it changes like that you're not even going to hear about this and I was heartened a while back when there were some leaks that came out of the Biden Administration that he at like a a donor Event in San Francisco or something said basically like we're you know we got to make sure we avoid World War II I'm paraphrasing but that was the he was like we got to avoid nuclear war we got to avoid World War III and I was like okay good he's he's thinking about that that caution that existed at that

19:52point seems to be totally out of the window and if you read you know the official sort of like state state paper of the New York Times about the administration's thinking they're like well you know Russia said this nuclear stuff and it didn't happen so they must just be bluffing it must just not be real oh Jesus and it's like okay number one was there a timeline before they could press the button ex they didn't blow the up the whole world yet so we should be fine fine I mean that's insane number one and number two the idea that Russia hasn't escalated in response to our actions is just not true they've been striking critical energy infrastructure including you know in and around keev which was an escalation they went through with a conscription that there you know was very politically dicey for Putin there's rumors that they

20:41may go through with another draft so the idea that they just like took all of this lying down didn't escalate is a fantasy to start with but it's incredibly dangerous and foolish to think just because they didn't push the nuclear button yet that oh it's all fine and he's just full of it thank God there's people like you guys out there because there's so many people that they have Ukraine in the same category of importance and significance as they do climate change climate change which is a real thing but it it's it's a politically divisive Alleyway where you're not allowed to Veer from the course and even look at any kind of science it's the same thing with Ukraine a support from you for Ukraine is undeniable you must put it in your Twitter bio and you guys are saying you're not saying don't support Ukraine but you're saying look

21:28where this is going do you understand what this is because you can't just openly support something you don't understand without a comprehensive view of what the [ __ ] the factors are and how it got to be that way in the first place and you're not going to hear that in a five minute clip on mainstream news you're just not going to it's so important for and us to internalize that message we're not saying we don't we hate Ukraine we're not saying we don't even support Ukraine the Ukrainian cause is just what we're saying is what about our interests there are interests that sub supersede Ukraine if I was Ukrainian I would do exactly what they were doing but guess what Ukraine does not exist without the United States we provide the vast majority of the military uh there for the diplomacy perspective if we cut off military weapons to them tomorrow

22:09that's it done they literally are forced to the negotiating table I'm not even saying we should do that I'm saying what is the endgame and you know in my neighborhood there's more Ukraine Flags than there are American flags it's like Ukraine flag gay pride flag no American flag but then it's like okay uh if you go to those people and if would just say what they said they were say this is disgusting this is Russian propaganda it's up to the ukrainians for when they they want to stop and I said yeah I completely agree but it's also up to us for whatever we stop providing them weapons we're like hey if you want to defend this part of your territory that's totally fine that's our end game my end game is not having a nuclear conflict is making sure that we have peace on the European continent Vladimir Putin is an opp opposition to that piece

22:50but Putin and Russia are going to exist you know something I think people should take home too is you had Peter zon on he said it really well which is the first year of every Russian conflict is a total [ __ ] show if you look at Finland if you look at the first year of Hitler's Invasion even going all the way back to Napoleon and some of the Zars campaigns before that they lose a [ __ ] ton of people looks like a complete mess they fire a bunch of generals all of this and then what do they do they use their vast Russ the Russian Colossus is known out of that for a reason because they have a shitload of people they allowed to have military material they amass it and they throw it at them and so people are like you know Sager Crystal like what you guys are saying would be valid but Ukraine is winning look we are barely a year in into this

23:30one year into the first World War I could make the easy case that Germany was going to win the first world war Second World War I could easily make the case the Nazis were going to win if I go back to World War uh Civil War I could easily make a case the Confederates were going to win all three of those it didn't happen why because these things go on for a long time like you have no idea what it is and one of the reasons that many of those conflicts first and two went on and uh ultimately came the conclusion they were was because a lot millions of lives were lost and the whole point from those conflicts if you look at the way that people talked was we have to learn the lesson we have to learn the lesson but it's been 75 years and now this is all a game this is a tweet that people are saying about Ukraine but this has real world

24:10consequences for people that's it that's it exactly and the the total lack of an ability to have a reason debate without just being like smeared as a propagandist is it don't read the comments it is a ter it is a terrifying moment um and you know there's a couple things that do uh give me some heart which is number one even though like I can't really blame the people who are just who can't understand seeing it another way because the propaganda that is coming from every Network really like almost across the board is very strong and it's very hard to avoid that so I have sympathy for that perspective but even so a poll just came out that had from NBC news they buried this at the very end of their write up of the poll Public's now 50/50 split on continuing Aid to Ukraine so people are questioning even though being fed so much propaganda

25:02I think that is a credit to the rise of Independent Media I think it's also a credit to the fact that they don't [ __ ] trust the main anymore things but because of Independent Media the trust is informed or the lack of trust rather ised it's not just it's not just nerk I hope I mean that's my hope looking at those numbers I think your hope is 100% correct I think you're right I think you guys are very important Glenn Greenwald very important Jimmy D very important Kyle kolinsky very important people who are real people that that actually have done the homework and are going over the details and can inform people cuz there's so many people out there you like I talked to Dave Smith about the history of the conflict between Russia and Ukraine I was like what and he informed me about the coup in 2014 I'm like my God a lot

25:47of backstory and then we played the video on the coar show the old coar show which is just [ __ ] Gideon something the guy from The Times where he was like had a book he's selling a book in the book He's comparing Russia and Ukraine to Batman and Robin and he's like Ukraine is Robin and we want to take Robin and bring him over to our side and it's like this Open Secret there there were um cables from that actually Wikileaks released and a friend who's a great journalist Bronco Marca who's been looking at the Ukraine conflict with a a critical eye um he sorted through these cables and he found all of these diplomatic cables from the prior era where you had um NATO allies you had us officials who were all saying hey guys Russia has red lines here with regard to Ukraine and floating NATO membership with Ukraine is a real

26:47violation of their hard red lines and were very fearful and they laid out exactly the trajectory that we could find ourselves on now that doesn't deny Russia agency or you know Putin and the Kremlin Agency for invading no one made them do that however it is to say that you know there was a time when you were allowed to acknowledge that US policy could lead to this exact event and now when you even suggest that us you know floating NATO membership with Ukraine and saying that they were going to be made apart that some of these things were exacerbating they crossed the red line and you know created a situation that was incredibly tense where this is the predictable outcome again that's you're not allowed to talk about that now well it's it's also like to bring back the chest analogy is if you looked at War and you you you ignored the human

27:38casualties and the horrors and the fact that it should absolutely be avoided at all costs and all human deaths are valuable and bombing apartment buildings and all the horrible [ __ ] it's terrible and evil but this isn't like that we are being fed a narrative that Russia made a big move and there was no other moves right and when we find out about the moving of weapons closer to Russia the discussion of them joining NATO and you realize Russia is getting moved on there's moves now you you you absolutely be correct in saying the the correct response is not blowing up apartment buildings and starting a war and invading a country you're right but this is not an unprovoked situation just come out of nowhere from a we're we're not getting this narrative on television the this is a new time and the only way to get this discussion is you guys it's

28:33people like you and that's what's so [ __ ] important about today and that's what's so dangerous about censorship and that's what's so dangerous about these partisan ideas where you're willing to like you're willing to absolutely ignore good points that the other side says because then you would give them some sort of credit in winning this ideological [ __ ] game we're all playing that is so it drives me nuts especially on corruption you know you were talking about censorship but corruption is a great one where everybody wants to talk about Hunter Biden on the right I would love listen we can talk about Hunter Biden all day we've been covering we've covered he's a guy who got hooked on drugs okay to get his duck dick sucked and who doesn't what that's not what the problem is you know there's it's it's just revealing a very corrupt system

29:23that everyone wants to ignore exactly and then we were like hey let's talk about Jared Kushner and then a lot of people on the writer I'm like hey uh you know this guy it's actually great there are internal Saudi documents where he asked the Saudi Royal Kingdom fund or whatever for a billion dollar investment in in his new fund private Equity Fund right after he leaves the White House the internal emails are like I don't think this guy's a very good investor I'm not sure this would be a good use of our capital and MBS the Crown Prince is like give him the money they're like it's they're like send him the billion personally to get to give this guy his two billion I think it was billion two billion for his fun a friend to have yeah but if you're on the right let's not talk about that let's talk about Hunter Biden and his laptop and of

30:06course the Democrats we had um Ted Lou Congressman on back this is back in the old days at the hill at Rising but I'll never forget we were pressing him on Hunter Biden these boards that he was on and the money was getting whatever he's like people sit on boards and they get paid money like it was so part of the Washington like the water that they swim in he couldn't even conceive that it was a problem I mean now it may not be illegal but that's an issue in of itself the fact that he could just handwave away well it's semi-legal oh no it's just straight legal me the C part it's legal but it's sketchy yeah but to your point about you know censorship and the like total lack of willingness to challenge your own side's narrative I did you just see this uh Columbia journalism review report that came out about Russia gate Saga and

30:54now we're looking at oh it's fantastic it's really long in depth I mean it's overdue right it's like way after the fact but I think this is one of the first certainly mainstream and cjr is as mainstream as they come mainstream attempts to actually go back through the rushia gate narrative where it started how it was sold to the American people and all of the lies and especially the omissions and they take a really hard look at the New York Times as kind of the main player in the story there were other villains as well but the New York Times was the main player and they would report something that you know they would shade it to look as bad as possible with regards to Trump Russia connections they would get some other piece of information that was exculpatory wouldn't be in the paper at all and they got all kinds of you know millions of new subscribers to their

31:44paper who were there to hear this like you know elaborate tale of Russian conspiracy and The Manchurian Candidate and whatever and the underlying narrative that at least I take away from the CGR report is the New York Times and nnbc and a lot of other places they were more interested in feeding that audience what they wanted to hear than actually looking at the facts of what was happening and you know you read it it is as damning as it could be and listen the way we were sold the Iraq War was bad enough like that was a travesty after the fact they actually did some correctives that here's what we got wrong and we're sorry and whatever this they will never admit that they did anything wrong here they just move forward and pretend like none of it ever happened and it's it is astonishing they Wonder then turn around and wonder like

32:30why does no one trust us we just don't get it yeah well we have to make laws against disinformation that's what we have to do misinformation Mal information all of those are bad and this way we can control the narrative are you going to are you going to be the one who determines what's what's fact and what's fiction and actually in the piece they were like the US has the lowest media trust in 42 developed Nations and they're like that's true cuz I think there's a an insanely strong trust in Independent Media you right you know these these people that are they're just who they are you know who they are and it's possible to do now you can be a real person you don't have to be a propagandist or a spokesperson for the state you can be a real person and tell people what the [ __ ] is going on because this is a wild game that other

33:21people are playing on our behalf with money that they've gotten from our taxes where we don't even get a say and what the [ __ ] they spend it on it's crazy it's crazy and it it it act it doesn't affect your daily life you drive to the same place you say hi to your neighbors all it seems fine but you're dealing with a [ __ ] destructive Empire that has been doing things to other countries that if you saw them if you were boots on the ground you would be horrified if you watched a drone bomb a wedding party in Yemen if you were a part of something in another country that we're involved in that our tax dollars have gone to that we have just written off as being not of concern right which is crazy Yemen is a great example I mean across the board humanitarian organizations around the world say this is the greatest

34:11humanitarian crisis that is unfolding in the entire world and you know we are highly complicit in this through our support of Saudi Arabia you don't see Yemen flags from people on people's cars you don't see the news media talking about it you don't see them humanizing the the children that are starving and dying there and so you know part of part of the way that the information ecosystem is shaped is what they decide to care about what they decide to cover the way they decide to cover it and what just gets pushed off the page entirely out of sight out of mind I think there's an important part to talk about with this that with human beings when human beings work inside corporate systems and these systems have goals and they're trying everyone's working together and there's a hierarchy of people you're not allowed to step out of line we develop a

35:03way of thinking that is almost like it's a tribal way and it's kind of a religious way and I'm I'm curious to know how you guys feel about your ability to be completely independent outside of that and how that's affected the way you think about things because for me personally like having all these conversations with so many different people about so many different subjects I'm a different person like I'm a complet completely different person it's shaped me so it's like the most bombarding overwhelming education that it's like very difficult to process but if you're in a a a corporate environment it's very hard to think independently it really is you don't have the time you don't have the notion you you you definitely don't benefit from it you don't have the incentive that's speak out you're [ __ ] penalized you can lose your job just

35:58things that AR aren't even like out of line like I remember there was a hockey guy he was a hockey commentator and he said that all lives matter and he got fired holy [ __ ] yeah like just like what an egregious misstep all lives matter you know I got my start in media on MSNBC yes I know so I mean am I a different person from those days God I certainly hope that's why I wanted to bring it up to you guys I go back and and look at it and you know some of it I watch and I'm proud of you know I did uh I focused on a lot of the same issues I do like labor and economic inequality economics things that I really care a lot about especially on foreign policy though I some of that stuff I go back and watch it I'm like oh my God this is so cringe and I just bought into the the corporate line now ultimately shortly before I was

36:48let go I did a monologue when Hillary Clinton was building up to run for president it was back in 2014 so this was early on and I did this whole thing that was like she sold out to Wall Street people are going to hate this lady she's like the terrible candidate for the moment please don't run and um I was allowed to say it right I delivered my thing I did it exactly how I wanted to do it afterwards I get pulled into an office and you know great mon everything's fine but next time you do any commentary on Hillary Clinton it has to get approved by the president of the network yeah and think about you know I mean I would love to say that I I did further Hillary Clinton commentary there's no doubt about it but I would love to say that didn't affect me and I was just there to be a truth teller but listen I'm a human being I'm sure I

37:38responded to the incentives in that system of like I don't want to get in trouble with the boss for sure you know and that's so that's the way that it works people that's a very blatant example but often times people know where the boundaries are they know what they're allowed to say and so they don't need that direct intervention of censorship and also by the way the people most of them in you know cable news they're not really there because they're talented they're there because they're reliable purveyors of whatever it is that that Network wants to purvey so that's ultimately why they get the job and they understand the parameters of the task well there's there's just a thing that happens when you're connected with someone if you're connected financially if you're connected in a friendship way if you're that's why cronyism Works yes that's a good point

38:26AB weasel their way in and look I can give you examples of it in my own life yeah like if anybody ever comes to me with any kind of criticism of Dana White and I'm like you're going to the wrong guy like that that guy's my brother I I'll never say a bad thing about him if I didn't know him if he was some [ __ ] that lived in some other country I would probably talk [ __ ] about him like I talk [ __ ] about everything but I love that guy to death and I'll never say a bad word about him so it's like you're not if you're coming to me for objective journalism about one of my friends you know you got the you got the wrong person you're open about it right the most important part we got the wrong person but I'm I won't say any I won't lie and but I won't ever say anything negative about my friends it's just like

39:11I don't think that's necessary and that's something that happens when you get a [ __ ] ton of money involved and you get relationships and you're drinking Scotch together at a private club and you're discussing the advertising revenue and we'd like to donate a bunch of money to CNN we'd like to figure out a way that we can work together you know hey I'm a [ __ ] Captain billionaire and I want to donate all this money to all these people that own media organizations and I would you know I'd like to be you be your friend that's it be your friend it's cool right who doesn't want to go to fun parties it's just friends we're friends yeah it's all part of a system and that's where this is the other thing actually I was hoping to bring up is I don't think people understand that cable is a fake business model so for example like we talk a lot

39:58about the failing ratings uh the key demo numbers on all three of these channels is a joke uh I always like to say like Crystal and I would be starving in a ditch uh if any these if we were getting the same numbers as these people so how do they survive it's because they're part of something called The Cable Bundle and so like when you buy cable like Cox Communications or whatever they pay Comcast for example they pay CNN and MSNBC and fox to be a part of the bundle the vast majority of the profit of these cable channels comes from the bundle so so CNN made a billion in Profit just last year all propped up by the bundle because they're getting paid just to exist I mean can you imagine if we were getting paid to exist not based upon our actual numbers like you can make you can actually reach less people and make more money and so it's

40:47all part of this fake system but I mean the benefit is is that with the rise of Independent Media more and more advertisers are waking up the less eyeballs the less of an incentive for the bundle to actually pay them to be a part of it and that's why I was really excited by Amazon striking that deal with the NFL cuz I'm like yes get the rights away from these people because that is what props up all kinds of [ __ ] that we don't have like a small D Democratic input with our eyeballs on CNN or any of these places they can exist just fine without us like to tr really kill them we have to get away from live news on TV that's that's the number one thing still propping them up today yeah it's kind of a zombie business model but I will tell you I mean I I have a lot of um optimism certainly about what we're doing about

41:32the response to what we're doing about the Independent Media ecosystem but we were you and I were talking the other day Joe about I do think it's a dangerous moment for people and one thing we've been covering a lot on the show is you have a kind of breakdown in previous National stories and narratives and people are very like story-driven you know you have a breakdown in I'm not a religious person so this is like not my bag but have a breakdown in religion so some of the stories that have kind of like held the country together and that people helped use to make sense of their life or even the the story about the American dream a lot of these things are kind of breaking down now that's a good thing because it creates a possibility for a new more beneficial story but in the meantime it is just a like Heyday for con artists and charlatans and you

42:26know people who are willing to sell a narrative to you know a lot of folks who feel kind of lost kind of a drift and don't like existing in that chaos so it's like you know whether they're being scammed by like SBF or this like Congressman George Santos who like made up every aspect of his life that gu's amazing I Crystal's obsessed with him I just find him a disgrace you see pictures of him when he's a drag que brail karaara absolutely I think the drag is now you can't criticize him anymore he's trans so I'm the part I'm obsessed with him with him is first of all I just can't imagine being that person who can like oh yeah and whoever he was across from he was going to tell them what they wanted to hear when the dude was like I'm into volleyball he's like I was a star volleyball player at a college he didn't I have a very good

43:20friend who texted me today and he told me I'm here with this guy who knew you from Boston and this and that and that and this and I say what's his name he tells me the name I go that guy's full of [ __ ] I don't know that guy and so then he tells me that he took a picture with this guy and the guy pretended that he was texting it to me whoa these are real people see that and that's that's There's real people that are just crazy and that's the thing that get is I'm like how many of these people are out there number one and number two I just feel like his ability to rise and make it to Congress says so much about like the crack through the holes FTX exec maxed out on donations I didn't even know that of course they did look at them that right there is like the perfect news story for our era look at that American flag [ __ ] pin on the little

44:12pel I love it this is americ Congressman right here have you seen the video where he's like hi my name is Anthony dealer changes who the [ __ ] are you he's a full on con man full on so few people that want to be congressman and there's so few people that want to get involved that you could be a [ __ ] loon a [ __ ] loon with all the right bullet points and you can get all the way in well he he told people what they wanted to hear you know to the donors he was like I'm a wealthy businessman I'm highly successful I worked at Goldman Sachs all the stuff they're like oh this is our kind of guy to the electorate in the Republican be pitched that he's like this trailblazing you know American I am the American dream like Latino gay all this stuff I mean it really was incredible the way that he told people

44:59what they wanted to hear and so that's a part that I'm really interested and obsessed with because all of these people are like a reflection of the holes and vulnerabilities in society you know same thing with Sam bankman freed and FTX he told people in Congress he told the media he had this very specific cultivated image of his like wacky hair and his like dressed down look and whatever that he was the exentric genius or whatever and a lot of people who were supposed to be super smart in the business press and in the you know regular press and on Capitol Hill they all bought it hook line and sinker after Bernie made off you're not going to fool us again oh yeah right we're we've got it all we figured out we got it it's not like Theos was like five years ago the Theos was an abnormality sir will never happen again people like that are rare

45:53and they don't really get through it's actually a good thing though just to show people like these people aren't that smart you know one of the I first came to DC you know you get to the White House and you're like holy [ __ ] like this is the White House I remember you know it's like when I met Trump and interviewing him I'm like in the Oval Office and I'm like holy [ __ ] I'm in the oval that's JFK who there you know like this where Nixon did this thing and but then you know like some guy comes in with his shoes off and you're like oh uh this is just an office like this is just a normal building and so you got to take that veneer off most people actually get this I'm probably just weird which is like these people aren't that smart they know the billionaires and uh they're actually fools like Sam bankman freed

46:26raised a billion dollars he was literally playing Counter Strike while he was on a zoom call and he was playing a video game he said some [ __ ] and like something about a banana and they gave him a billion dollars this is one of the top tier Venture Capital firms in the world yes I me these are supposed to be the most sophisticated investors and just totally Bamboozled by this guy and it isn't and then on the other end you know a lot of people who bought into what he was selling or what you know nft that were being sold or whatever random crypto like scams were out there you know they had their own vulnerabilities of maybe they were hurt in the financial crash maybe they feel like it was disproportionately young men right so maybe they feel like the American dream of like getting the house and having the the family and the you know the like

47:19basic middle class Prosperity wasn't really open to them and they're being sold this sort of Hero Journey narrative about you know fortune favors the brave and you got to get in early and this is secret special special knowledge that's going to allow you to achieve your goals of wealth creation that has been held out to you of like what is at the core of being a man it's a very seductive story it's a very seductive story connected to the manscape the manscape and crypto and nfts it all is this you know what's interesting some of the most viral content that we've done in like the last several months is just problems with men like we did this video was like the problems of boys and men with the author Richard Reeves who's actually fantastic he wrote a great book on this You' have a great conversation viral and he he talks a lot he's like look I

48:06understand he's like I'm not an anti-feminist he's like what we are talking about though is in the last two decades we've had a crisis amongst young men and something we talk about on the show is what crystal is getting out with the decline of the American dream like the idea that you were going to do better than your parents and that's just not really true anymore depend even if you went to school and you have a [ __ ] ton of student debt even if you're working class in terms of wage growth upward Mobility uh people who are graduating from high school are having much who are men in a working class having much uh more trouble actually finding a mate so there's a big college imbalance right now where a lot of men are dropping out of college they no longer feel accepted and you're reaching almost 6040 splits of women and men in

48:49college especially who are graduating a lot of women who have college degrees don't actually want to date somebody who doesn't have a college degree and so there's this big imbalance in the dating Market and then also among single men you see a big decline in Long lifetime wages but what really is makes me really sad is the drug overdose numbers and they die much earlier they're much less likely to exercise much less likely to fulfill a more like a stronger life and that's what gets to the charlatanism of like being able to buy into the charlatan signing up for some mln scheme that you might see online uh buying crypto I'm by the way you're looking at a crypto victim I lost $5,000 on blockfi uh got [ __ ] out uh by that there's a lot of men that feel by their very existence that they're bad yeah yeah F this thought of toxic masculinity

49:39and the things that they're attracted to they think they've been told or stupid or you know that they're evil or you know there's a thing about being a a man in this world today that I think we have to look at all human beings as just human beings and you you don't you can't help that you were born man and you can't help the things that you enjoy like if you enjoy going to football games you enjoy getting loud with your friends you this idea of toxic masculinity it's like yeah there's toxic aspects of men and and that's real that's a reality of being a male human being if you look at the history of War it's all started by men men did all of it men do all the raping I had this guy in the podcast once it was hilarious he goes actually you know statistically speaking men get raped more than women do I go yeah by other men you [ __ ]

50:31idiot I go it's not packs of cheerleaders raping football players the [ __ ] is wrong with you the problem is 100% men that's the problem with Manos fear is that there's grifters in the Manos feere that aren't actual real men and by real men I mean they don't have resolve they like if you took them on a hike they would get tired they would sit down you would have to leave them behind they're not the word tough is is a word but it it's like like oh you're tough no mental toughness is [ __ ] important it's a really important quality of life and it's been diminished to this thing that's like a part of toxic masculinity ideology and it's well and this is where you know the Andrew Tates of the world come in and they like perform this just like caricature ridiculous masculine whatever they're doing and then also

51:22maybe is a sex trafficker we'll find out we'll see what happens there but it again speaks to the fact there used to be a really clear sort of cultural narrative right or wrong about what it was to be a man and at the core of that was being a provider right for women it was like you know was other it was being like a mother and a nurturer and like the way you look for men it's like about the wallet right the pocketbook and then so I think when we've had an assault on the middle class on the working class where it becomes so much harder to be able to fulfill that cultural Narrative of what it is supposed to be to be a man I think that's been this is as a woman but you know from my external perspective I think that's been really really devastating and I don't want to pretend also though like it's like only young men who are getting scammed right

52:12now everybody has their there's um uh sorry what was it lulao yeah and there's a great uh series about this MLM multi-level marketing scheme of these [ __ ] ugly leggings that a bunch midw wives for some reason love these things they are hideous you and I are on the wrong page here cuz I think those are kind of fly I like them that's some [ __ ] if my wife wore I'd be like I like those would you let your wife buy them off Facebook Live From Another Mormon 100% I don't have any say of what she buys that's how we work get those for your wife for see how she feels about it I am a non- criticizer of my wife's Behavior that's a good that's a good idea but so I mean the thing that they sold to the women who ended up like selling these beautiful leggings I think they're fly beautiful fly leggings stars on them and

53:09[ __ ] I like it you're going to be able to make your own money you're going to have like this fin people like cool [ __ ] you're going to be able to still have time with your kids you're going to be able to have it all but then as the thing went on and originally there was like a real demand for these leggings and people really did want them so you felt like oh I'm doing the thing but then as time goes on the only people who are making money are the people who are convincing more to get into the legging sales business and you know it's a a classic basically pyramid scheme and over time the quality of the leggings degrade they're sending out packages that like smell bad and they're ripped and whatever but the bottom line is the only way to make money was by bringing in more people after you which is definition of a it's it's that was the

53:52like you know for the midwestern housewife or whatever maybe they just have fin a marketing problem cuz some tell them how fly those leggings are and they flying you'rea you made that [ __ ] guy's day you're going to get contacted next thing you know we're going to listen to Joe's podcast he's like this is brought to you by like have some like little Minnie Mouses on them let's go right let's go but I think it's also a broader cultural thing where being in the mainstream you know mainstream masculinity is not really represented and because of that that also opens a space for a lot of grifters I mean I was looking at that with the whole liver King thing which I know you covered quite a bit but I saw something well I called it I didn't yeah I called it way in advance I'm like that guy's on the sauce looking at him 100% yeah so you just don't

54:43naturally get that way yeah you can naturally get that way if you have Superior genetics and you're in your 20s you're right like if you're in your 20 this in his 40s he didn't have he's carrying around too much mass like you would have to in your by the way in your 20s you know your hormones are flying right if you're like 21 22 years old there's some natural guys that I follow that are [ __ ] jacked yeah but it's a different kind of Jack that guy's a Juiced up jacked and it's hard he also I think something's going on with his abs too I don't know oh yeah I the surgery you think that's real I don't know but anyone who's willing to lie about doing steroids when it's so obvious to anyone who understands hormonal optimization and St oid use and like that more plates more dates guy Derek who's I love that guy you know he called it way we both

55:33called it way in advance like there's not a chance in hell there's no way it's like if you look at Mr Olympia right right no one thinks they don't take ster zero people and you would be correct but then when you look at that like do you blame him cuz he know you know his all his competitions doing the same [ __ ] right Li is inflence she she means olymp of course that's the same way I think about like tour to France Tour to France is a dirty Sport and it always was and you know the the greatest documentary about it is Icarus and it's not about tour to France but it's about bicycle racing and and doping and how prevalent it is and worldwide it's it's amazing have you seen it we had show Bri yeah we had Brian on the show amazing the same guy that did the dissident the M shogi documentary which is another amazing

56:26documentary D he's [ __ ] fantastic but that it's a dirty business it's a dirty business so other people are doing it too okay but that's why I want people to be honest in the Mano like I I work out at a bodybuilding gym and so it's I'm like there's guys who are on gear and then there's guys who aren't [ __ ] on gear and like that's just what it is but the liver King thing drove me nuts because you were looking at like teenagers who thought they're like oh this is real if I eat like bow testicles or if I buy you know whatever his [ __ ] supplements are not I don't want to say [ __ ] whatever his supps I don't think the supplements are bad because because what he's doing is desiccated organ meat and there's actually been peer-reviewed studies on feeding desicated liver I think it was to see you can find it I think it's to

57:08mice I also want to see the ABS when you have a chance his abs yeah well there's are quite a few people that have those now people are accusing Oscar de la Hoy of having them now Oscar say he got etching he got etching oh okay he's being honest yeah you got radio show Oscar's being honest good for him um for Oscar uh so those look to me Preposterous yeah the the amount it just doesn't make sense now you do have people that are outliers like there's certain people that just have bizarre traps or crazy back muscles like right there if you show me that picture on the right I would say that looks F that's that's that's a guy who's just jacked but there's something about the one on the far left where he's holding up the piece of liver yeah that is just like what is going on now yeah I I buy that but also now sauce to the [ __ ]

58:02gills that was the best part about D's video it's like 12 Grand a month his entire hor when Derek got a hold of all of the yeah I mean come on son look they look great but they do they though I mean I it's not to my taste I'll just say that oh Kyle I want to see Kyle on the sauce it's you know what it is it's like people like like different things and you you can't you're wrong that music sucks no it sucks to you all right some people want a giant Juiced up [ __ ] Viking dude that's that's what they want and some people want like an Alex honold who like the guy who climbs the Rocks yeah I love that guy like slim and lean like people like different things so some people that's the optimal physique the problem a little what look a little different stretched out yeah that that physique is ridiculous how Leni is freakish it really is freakish well they

59:01you know like he's in the middle of full exertion there right he's throwing a spear um look the guy's built like a brick [ __ ] house no if hands or but you don't get that way without putting in a lot of work that guy works hard there's no way there's no way you get there without the hard work like the the real tragedy in this is that this guy had an opportunity to say what's possible with chemical intervention and here's the pros and cons and this is the dangers of and also this is the nutrition that I take to optimize my body which is also critical you cannot get to that physique with just steroids you must have amazing work ethic incredible discipline ability to push through exertion and just just have a [ __ ] force of will and you have to have amazing nutrition you have to be really [ __ ] healthy to allow

59:54all those tissues to recover and nourish them and then stay there that lean so you have to be very disciplined with your diet so what he's done is very very very impressive but he lied that's the problem and it's such a disservice is he I haven't I admit I haven't watched a lot of liver King content I'm not exactly in the core demo for this um is he like is he a charismatic guy me you feel like if he hadn't cheated and lied and whatever he still could have made it I you know I don't know you know we don't know I mean I think so I think that there's been a bunch of people that are openly taking performance-enhancing drugs and have enormous social media platforms yeah I don't think that's the problem I think the problem is just being dishonest if you're the liver King and you're talking about your stack and explaining to people what you take and that you're

60:45doing it all legally and then you're also eating all this food and like the question is is that a thing that would influence other people to do that when they shouldn't do that and I think that's a personal choice chice I think the real responsibility that someone has when you're in that situation if you are doing that stuff you should be honest about what you're doing and then also honest if something goes wrong yeah I think it's so I didn't get into health and fitness till like a two years ago or so and it's so important to have realistic expectations about what you can do about what you can get about what it actually means to diet so like Dr Lane Norton who I use as app carbon like you know you realize after a couple weeks into a cut you're like oh this [ __ ] sucks and you're like and I'm only losing you know I'm only losing

61:33whatever 2 lb a week and then also even with heavy resistance training four times a week diet relatively on point [ __ ] is hard man it takes years like you are not going to look like liver King overnight and that's actually important to understand that well and I mean number one you just aren't going to look like liver King unless you do you know what he did but number two I mean yeah some people that's just never going to be on the menu totally yeah but I'm more saying like for kids especially you know I look I didn't know a [ __ ] thing before I started consuming all this content like huberman and all these other folks Derek all these videos and Dereck had a video Once of a guy who was like one year out I think it was like this is what a realistic like six pounds of muscle looks like and he was like yeah doesn't look great he's like but

62:13that's what it looks like man and I was like yeah that's actually very helpful to me as somebody who was just starting off from the ground and then I think about 22-year-old me I would have fallen for it man I would have bought the supplements I would have bought the you know if I was 18 years old absolutely I'm like fat kid station if you really thought that's all it took to get like that's all it takes I'm like [ __ ] yeah I'll do it's like you got you got to consume good information have real expectations around that stuff and that's the biggest problem I think with like manosphere and Instagram culture and all that there's some great ones out there like Lane like huberman uh and a few others but there's lot of frers well and to go back to Andrew Tate apparently part of what he's arguing is like oh this is just a character that I'm

62:52playing but it's like you know at the end of the day does it really is he arguing that I think so I think I saw that but at the end of the day does it matter if you're playing a character if people believe it you know then there's no difference whether you're just like playing a charact a ridiculous character because you're still selling the same thing to a public that's buying it yeah then what do you do about step coar the co report character that was a character that was that was great great that was was so funny that character was amazing it was was amazing on The Daily Show when he went and did the like roast of the at the White House correspondence with much better than the real one like the real guy that does the talk show like so cringy you need to get them Daily Show writers back let's go back in the closet buddy last time we were here

63:41put put the character back on it was so much funny here I remember last time we were here was the day after he [ __ ] up uh John Stewart's bit on about like you're stepping on him I got that from you you were like you're stepping on purpose that was the first time I watched that thing was here live with you guys hilarious well he just the narrative was like his you saw his yacht slipping away he's like no well I'd like to see some evidence if you have it I I've had dinner with the folks at fires they're wonderful people but I I don't even think it's that I think it's like the social proof thing like we're talking about I mean people feel like oh this is my club and this is my tribe and so I got to like represent them or I'm going to get backlashed I'm not could to get invited to the party but have you ever seen him dancing with

64:25Chuck Schumer when the high five Chuck Schumer it's amazing it's amazing you're in the club buddy you made it congratulations hope it feels good that's but that is what was the only thing that was available until Independent Media arose yeah you had to do that and if you wanted to be the that's why like Jay Leno hid in the closet when they were discussing you know The Tonight Show like you he everybody wanted to be the the head of a late night talk show and if you you could find a way to get to that spot that was the whole ho Grail that was the thing that everybody wanted to get to I watched that documentary uh the comedy show or The Comedy Store about The Comedy Store and that that era was like so crazy where all anybody wanted was to get on that and that actually I don't know I'm I'm of two minds on the I didn't grow up in that

65:14you know I was born in '92 so by the time I was like aware I was on the internet but that there seemed something comfortable about that mass media environment like the three channels the Walter kronites everybody looks at that as an era which was better but you know a lot of the reading I've done in terms of JFK and Vietnam lies and all that I'm like I think [ __ ] was just as bad it was like we just didn't hear about it people just had no idea what was going on but you know I mean when you talk about JFK which is like this is another one of the things that I've gotten really into I mean it's not like the public bought the narrative they never bought the narrative they still don't buy the narrative you know so but I do think in general it was easier for them to sell a unified like propagandistic narrative to the American people except when it came

65:57to things that were just like farsal on their face you know well and you have something like a late night talk show it's so easy to co-opt all you have to do is just like advertise on it right you know and then then you kind of control what the people can and can't talk about it's not hard at all I mean that's the thing with the existing like the Legacy Media business models there's no you know CNN has a new boss and he's saying different things and trying to it's like you're still dealing with the same Beast here though same incentive structure you're going to find yourself falling into the exact same mistakes and holes I mean that's why uh you know you see the same Dynamic going on at Twitter right now where it's like the part of the reason they were making the censorship decisions they were was because of ideology and I think that

66:40comes out in the Twitter files like you had a couple of people you had a lot of people who didn't want to make a decision they're just like you know that's in general people don't like being responsible or making decisions and you had a couple of really ideological actors but you also see in the Fallout with advertisers fleeing now that a lot of the reason these censorship decisions were driven was about the money it was about the bottom line it was still just like with Legacy Media it was the advertisers shaping what was the bounds of acceptable discourse you see that on Twitter you see it on YouTube I mean anywhere that's ad supported you're going to have that same Dynamic we have that chick constantly on YouTube it's like you do a video about Jeffrey epine [ __ ] Kiss It Goodbye Oh you did a video about you know the vaccine forget it Kiss It

67:19Goodbye you did a video about gain of function uh oh my favorite uh was about do you remember the Chinese tennis star pun she she ACC that guy of rape the video got demonetized on our Channel and they were like hey all videos on sexual assault are demonetized I like well first of all uh when you do news sometimes the news is [ __ ] bad so you know I don't know what incentive you're setting here but we've done other videos on sexual assault that weren't demonetized yeah they they told us literally anything to do with like a me too story was demonetized out of the case it like controversial so people don't want their adver I get it that's it that's it exactly but then you know think about the incentive structure you're creating how many people are going to want to cover those stories knowing that they're not going to make

68:03any money off of it I mean we you know we built our business model so that we could try to insulate ourselves from those incentives because we're human beings too and you know we don't be so arrogant to assume that we're not also shaped by whatever incentive structure we ultimately live in but yeah that's how you end up with Twitter Facebook YouTube Etc making very similar content moderation decisions because ultimately it's all about what the advertisers are going to feel comfy with when I tell you a story about when we got the Spotify deal yeah uh we were always getting demonetized we got demonetized YouTube paid us a lot of money and I look I'm not an anti- yoube person I love them I think the problem with YouTube is monitoring at scale yes yes and managing the insane amount of content that goes through YouTube it's [ __ ] impossible

68:48and then you have ideological actors that are inside the the company and you have mandates and they they have their own opinions about things that lean heavily left but we were getting demonetized like 25% of our videos um but it's like okay I don't change this is what I do you know and most of the money that I was making was actually off of advertisers on iTunes on Spotify so you were good so we go over to Spotify and then magically all our demonetization stops they get all they wanted to get the money before we left so oh that's fascinating right Jamie did we have any of them that were demonetized after the Spotify the might have been like one that is fascinating maybe one if we had Alex Jones I was I was just going to say that they're like oh The Alex Jones one we'd like that cash but we just can't do it yeah or

69:38someone like [ __ ] super Off the Grid crazy you know someone I don't know remember who it was but maybe we had one but it was the difference between 25% of our revenue from YouTube and it's a significant amount of so you would self censor and I know that there's many friends that I have that are making YouTube shows and they self-censor let me give you good example uh we cover the news obviously so YouTube has a policy where if you play a clip of claim of trump claiming that the election was stolen that they're going to take down that whole video and I was like well so we're a politics show we cover Donald Trump when we play clips that doesn't mean necessarily that we agree or endorse those clips so how are we supposed to cover the news and they were like well as long as you say that it's not true and I'm like yeah okay even

70:24probably would say that anyway but it's like why are you dictating the way that I have to do my coverage we're going to cover a state of the union in a couple of days like a live stream so that's Biden I mean are we supposed to interject every time he says something that's not true and live fact check it no because that's outrageous you play the clip and then afterwards you be like okay here's what I thought about the State of the Union if Trump is he's going to be possibly the next president of the United States very least the probably the next Republican nominee how are we supposed to set that standard like you can't just make [ __ ] up for people like says I'm not a exact and then you're like well he might be a cook you know know right right right yeah you have to be able to discuss it I mean if someone says something crazy you have to refute it

71:10right right and and the other piece is you know it'd be one thing if the standards were consistent and clear but they're just like you just don't know I mean just like with your videos something they suddenly they were monetized and huh who know who knows why or what or what happened or what that conversation was like and so it it makes it a challenging challenging situation I understand their place I understand what they're doing I get it and I understand their their they're trying to make as the mo the most money possible there's an enormous industry that's around that and they're incredibly successful and I'm very very happy for YouTube same but it's an issue that that in particular is a giant issue that's a logical problem but the problem is if you say okay we'll let Crystal and Sager talk about because they're going to mock this guy's claims

71:57but then you're going to have some right-wing like qinon person who's going to put it and then they're going to have it and we need to do this because of that and then we it's a call to arms and oh Jesus and then it's a free country you know at the end of the day you just got to step back and be like you know what is it a free country still I don't know I mean but and that is thing here's my real question about election fraud yeah what percentage of election fraud do you think exists because I don't think it's zero I don't think it's zero but I think it's fairly I mean they go you know they'll go back and do like recounts when you have a close election or whatever and usually the count changes by maybe 50 or 100 votes but they've never been able to uncover like a large scale one of the only ones recently that may have shifted the

72:44results remember this one in North Carolina y it was actually a republican candidate who won because they were using this like sketchy system of um ballot harvesting and like that one actually got uncovered and it was a very close race and it was enough to to throw the result that's the one of the only instances I know where there was enough sufficient to actually change what the result was it's important you ask that question too and we covered this at the time we were like look we're not going to make fun of you we're going to cover every single lawsuit that the Trump campaign filed we're like here's the lawsuit here's what they alleg happened in Milwaukee here's what they alleged happened in Arizona here is what they were able to prove in court at the end of the day that's probably what matters right here's the judge ultimately dismissed it in this case and

73:30I believe I I don't remember the exact number of I want to say it was like 40 or 50 cases all every single one of them was thrown out and so I think with election fraud it's important also to think about like what level of fraud is being alleged what exists actually today how corrupt our elections actually used to be in some me measures we actually have some of the least election fraud in modern American history uh we're sitting in Texas one of my favorite books means of ascent which is about how LBJ straight up stole the 1948 senate election here in Texas there's a lot that happened with JFK to box oh it's like box 13 where they straight up stuffed ballots on day six of the Democratic primary before the uh things were about to get counted and there was a whole Supreme Court LW anyway LBJ is never president without stealing that

74:16election JFK a lot of dead people voted in Chicago uh in 1960 West Virginia I I do I want to I want to revise my previous statement about uh that North Carolina election being the only one I mean to me the most obvious example of election fraud was the 2000 presidential election where it was like you know top down and they had all the officials in place to get them to to stop the count and like okay it's going to be George W bush so in my opinion that was probably the greatest election fraud yeah I mean you got the Secretary of St what was it the okay so you think that that was John krey right it was Gore no that was Gore which was John k0 04 was a weird one too right democ go but there was on the level of so 2000's the one well 2000 remember that was with the hanging Chads Jeb Bush oh yes George's brother was the governor

75:13of the state so he was like in control and so basically you know they they went looked like okay if we actually count all these ballots it's going to go to gore I don't do you remember do you remember hacking democracy of course yeah haing democrac HBO democrac um the documentary rather that covered the um the issue with the D machines the D machines had a third party input available where a third party could input information that would change the the the numbers and they did it live like they they did it on on film and they showed how this can be done when was this from I don't know anything about it was in the it was about the bush elections because one of the allegations with that was that diebold was a huge cont to the Republican part wasn't there some chainy connection there to of course you think that guy doesn't have his [ __ ] hands and

76:05everything he's like Immortal he's literally in the Bible it's important he's he's a man with no heartbeat remember when he had that fake heart we had no heartbeat had no heartbeat three hearts right he had an artificial thing going on where he had no pulse so it was just like circulating his blood now he's got someone else's heart in there he's a creepy one I used to have a joke about him that they had a one secret service agent that didn't get to eat what everybody else ate and he was like on on this like like vegan diet and they were giving him all these pills like what the [ __ ] why am I jogging every day he was just the guy the moment CH drops dead they [ __ ] shoot this guy in the head duck H open up his chest and pull his [ __ ] heart out and stuff it into dick chainy they take him on the

76:51duck hunt chain shoots him qu qu qu you know those are like the most gross hunts of all time they just open a box and they let these birds fly out it's called a canned hunt wow yeah they're the grossest hunts of all time I even enjoy that well I don't know you have to be a person who just likes shooting birds out of the sky like you well we have this thing and I did this uh post once about the hierarchy of uh dead animals on social media okay and I said okay I'm going to show you a piece of fish no one's going to be offended and then I'm going to show you a dead fish still fish they don't even take care of their kids [ __ ] fish right no one cares about fish and then I was holding up a dead turkey like this is a turkey I shot and then I had a package of bare meat and I'm like this is just bear meat what kind of bear

77:37a black bear that I ate I shot him and I ate him like black bear is a very edible and delicious in fact the Pioneers that traveled across the country during the Daniel Boon days they preferred black bear meat over venison because of the fat it just was closer to beef it's very close to beef so they they ate bears and they used here for skins so they all wore their their clothes they Buck skins interesting yeah a buck the word Buck the dollar Buck comes from oh that's right one buck skin is worth a dollar so that's where a buck comes from I think you've had him on Clay Nukem that right yeah he's got a great series on his he's amazing Clay nuk is he's the bear Greece podcast he's a a brilliant guy from Arkansas I I love that guy to death and he talks about the history of this country and like wild animal conservation and stuff but that's one of

78:31the parts of you know the the story is that like people ate bears like that was like the favorite food so did people that's the picture of my be meat and so did people were they were like you're a monster you murdered Winnie the Pooh basically no no no everyone was fine with it because I didn't have a but if it was the Dead bear you had like a grip and grin I think it would be yeah well there's pictures of me with a dead bear people get very upset at it but look I ate that bear and by the way that bear here's something that people need to understand about bears because people think about bears like like oh this a beautiful animal in the forest and it's also a teddy bear it's Winnie the Pooh I was there when there was a brawl between a male bear and a female bear and the female bear scared the male bear off and the male bear killed one of her Cubs and

79:21then she ate the Cub oh my God so she scared the male bear off of the Cub that was killed and then she ate the C oh my God you know there's a bare fighting Grizzly Man my friend saw it he was there while this happened while we were all in Camp that's crazy yeah so you know and there's I mean your honey something that can kill you too there's some there's a kind of a wild part of that too like you're not just hunting a deer people don't have a problem with you're not hun you're not hunting Quail that have just been released from a fox for your pleasure joke about Cheney was he shot his friend in the face and his friend apologized he's like sorry I look like a bird go [ __ ] don't kill me bro I mean he's just he got shot in the face by Darth Vader you got to let it go you got to let that one go these are all like two it's it's so weird how much the

80:07culture has changed like in terms of the way that the Theocratic right like the way that we would think about like who was advocating for censorship that's what I grew up in I grew up here in Texas and then it's like you get to DC then it's I feel like everything changed well it was always it was always bipartisan honestly because if you go back to the Tipper Gore days that was Al Gore's wife and she was the one that was advocating for censorship of rap videos rap and rap songs what was it called the V chip or something like that it was like the censorship chip in television or video games moral Panic around rap music that was like what early 9s well I remember I was was like oh yeah there it is is what I got it prevents [ __ ] this keeps you from getting on a jet that's going to get you in what is that is that sou oh my

81:03God that's where they ended up with just this they just start TV PG yeah yeah and they started putting the ratings on the video games and yeah it was a whole whole moral I was it was in uh like 1989 1990 I remember I was at a gym on a treadmill listening to Straight Out of Compton for the first time and I was like holy [ __ ] like this is crazy like at the time I was like a a young man in my early 20s was a kickboxer and I was like this is kind of nut like [ __ ] the Poli I was getting into a ring with [ __ ] no clothes on in my underwear kicking people in the face and I was like these guys are wild these guys are wild I mean I was living the wildest life I had no health insurance I was out there fighting for no money yeah I was traveling around the country I felt alive though wow man alive but it was

81:58but listening to that I was like this is crazy so I can imagine if you're some like dumpy housewife who's married to some politicians like I'm going to put a stop to this your son comes home Straight Out of Compton you know like no no no not my Billy yeah that's so true I mean I I don't know what I sort of struggle with now like the music that is popular in like what's age appropriate for my children even the censored versions because it is just like it is a lot I'm not saying any of it should be like censored but in terms of my own personal choices in the household what's appropriate for the kiddos take an approach uh that was my parents were hippies luckily my mother and my stepfather were hippies and they didn't care what I did they they were like you just I want you to be you they like you could swear if you want to you

82:43say whatever but don't swear when you go to school you get in trouble don't swear around people's parents they'll get upset at you and they just were like real reasonable about it so because of that I had this like open way of communication so I have that with my kids I'm like like you can swear my my wife used to get upset in the beginning she was like stop saying [ __ ] around the kids I'm like they need to know that that's a word cuz someday someone's going to say it it's going to make them feel bad but like I can see that when they're in even like third grade four where they're able to understand there's things we can say here but we can't say in this other place but I mean I have a 5-year-old in kindergarten right now I don't know that she would really get to make the distinction I I understand that but eventually that information is going

83:24to get to her so it's like wend s isn't real I just don't need her teacher thinking I'm a bad person I live in a small town okay I don't want to be outcast she definitely shouldn't be saying I got to keep up appearances that's what I'm saying here I know that feeling she definitely shouldn't be saying it yeah don't say it me don't say I don't say it when I'm around people that are think are going to be offended if I go over someone's house and I meet their parents and their older folks are okay what the [ __ ] going on Bob like I don't do that how are you sir nice to meet you hi nice to meet you I just didn't I'm not going to say who I'm not going to name check I did an interview a little while ago and they sent me a list of words I wasn't allowed to say and it was [ __ ] hilarious Bo well what was that list

84:11that they gave a problematic new words I put that out there uh it was like where was that Stanford University oh reallyit isn't that the is that the one that said the French was that no no that was the AP that was also great did you see that the AP put out like you know their style guide or whatever it was like don't put the in front of a group it could be offensive and yeah it's othering and one of their examples was people with disabilities the French like well and it said refer to them as people with so was like people suffering from frenchness oh my God that is an that oh my God University language guide grandfather housekeeping spirit animal or problematic words spirit animal spirit animal is a problematic word man I thought that was just for funsies grandfather I thought that spirit animal was just a Fu well listen ninja is

85:02something you can't take from us okay I from the martial arts Community you are not allowed to say that ninja is a pejorative cuz ninja is something that we like we will talk about a guy who's a Jiu-Jitsu expert like dude that motherfucker's a ninja it's a compliment that's a thing yeah okay listen I I agree with you but the one that I just can't even understand the rationalization of is Grandfather uh I can imagine how a deranged mind would come up with these other ones look what it says the cause originated in the American South the 1890s the way to defy the 15th Amendment and prevent black Americans from voting what oh I see because it was referred to as the grandfather clause but that that that means the grandfather name was grandfathered into the grandf because grandfather name that's like way before that why don't you just teach people

85:50what the Grandfather Clause is just yeah get rid of that stupid [ __ ] Clause like get of the name grandfather that's so dumb there's so many more grandfathers than there are grandfather clauses there was another one Jamie I think you can look for I think it was Stanford uh and there was one it was around like Merit or something hold on go back to that because it said preferred pronouns are problematic where were you write that yeah here it goes hold on the the language guide also considers preferred pronouns as problematic because the term preferred suggest that a person's pronouns are optional so what are you supposed to say Mand pronouns your pronouns follow the rules or die I like this one uh phrases with man Manpower oh yeah that's so silly well I mean that maybe maybe you can make an argument for that if you're

86:43working at a 50/50 [ __ ] workplace even a 9010 workplace and 10% of them are women like man hours like what about human hours you can say human hours sure you can you could that's not an issue yeah but are you really taking offense at that grandfather leave Grandpa Alone come on what the [ __ ] are we doing but the thing is is like once people get things established they never want to stop like we're good we have a perfect balance in society no they want to keep pushing and if they're pushing in that general direction to try to restrict language Define what's acceptable you're right though that it is such a bipartisan Instinct it's much more about control than it is anything else cuz we see like you know the right I think very rically has embraced like The Narrative of like freedom of speech Etc and then you see dudes like Mike

87:32Lindell the pillow guy starting his own social media platform and he's like it's a free speech platform no curse words Allowed no taking the lord's name in vain like a porn no porn defin about Twitter Twitter still has hardcore porn which is really weird they honestly do a pretty good job I feel like of keeping it exact that's what I mean is like if you aren't there for like right if you're not following dicks and asses you're not going to get it in your feet and if you are then you are yeah I saw somebody tweeted us once they're like love Crystal bald Sager I was like oh who is this guy I show up and just a giant dick in my face he's like a male's a I love that guy I love that guy shout on to him political too absolutely they got to fight for their rights maybe more than anyone else just cuz you [ __ ] on camera doesn't mean you're not a person

88:18that's right yeah it is it's a wild time to be alive but that's why I think that a show like yours is so important because you are from the right and you are from the left and I think I'm like a person without a country I I'm an island I really do I'm so leftwing on so many different things but then they get to a certain number of things and I'm like no [ __ ] way stop because you're denying crazy you're denying all sorts of real psychological conditions you're Den amid backlash stold pulls harmful language amid backlash dug guys get out of your [ __ ] bubble those are people that need to read the comments sometimes people but Stanford should read the comment read the comments I think there's a lot of people who feel like you do Joe they just don't I mean life we both feel the same way you do in terms of like you know I don't see

89:06myself as like fitting with the Democratic party and everything that they're doing I just saw like Nancy Pelosi is endorsing Adam shift for California Sen when you read through the way that man lied to the American public through all of Russia gate you're like yeah he should be should be like in prison for perjury not being bolstered by one of the most powerful women in the country sitting next to Ilan Omar where she's she's apologizing for talking about it's all about the Benjamins which is just about money talking about money shouldn't have apologized that's not an anti-semitic statement I don't think that is it's about Benjamin's or money you know the idea that Jewish people are not into money is ridiculous that's like saying Italians aren't into Pizza it's [ __ ] stupid it's [ __ ] stupid I understand that the way she phrased it

89:52like she could have phrased it a different way so that people would have less of a freak out but can you not talk about the influence of money in DC I mean this is very obvious there's a very obvious reason why for my entire life there's been a uni party consensus around our policy Visa the Israeli government and a total inability or unwillingness to criticize the Israeli government it has everything to do with organization and yes money just like every other [ __ ] interest in DC and so yeah the fact that she said that she got kicked off The Foreign Affairs committee look I have issues and disagreements with ilhan om but she actually is one of the more courageous voices on foreign policy is willing to call out some of the hypocrisy and [ __ ] in US foreign policy extremely rare in terms of United States

90:40Congressman so it it's actually kind of a real loss that she got kicked off that committee yeah she whether you agree with her or not she has a bold opinion and that opinion is not her own there's many people that have that opinion and they should be represented my point is she's sitting right next to Adam Schiff and no one [ __ ] she doesn't say yeah yeah I probably should have said hey [ __ ] what did you say yeah you said some crazy [ __ ] that wasn't true at all no he he was the I mean he loved having his face on the cameras during all the rade stuff and he would go out there and just like go right up to the line of basically saying yeah we got the goods on Trump in Russia and he fed it so hard and then you look at that and what a disservice it was what a like Giant elaborate conspiracy was

91:27constructed to distract American people from so many more important things that were going on and here's one of the key figures and he is very likely to be the next senator from California especially with [ __ ] Nancy Pelosi's endorsement now insane it's [ __ ] ridiculous no I agree you know it's also funny in terms of like what you're not allowed to say what you get censored off of a committee for I'm like like you said look I don't agree with ilhan Omar on a lot I mean I also don't think that it should be out of bounds to talk about influence of any government including the Saudi government of which a lot of these people are on the take this type of hypocrisy which drives me [ __ ] crazy right it's crazy yeah it's like you know they'll censor or they'll go after Eric swalwell rightfully in my opinion right

92:08the okay he had a relationship of some kind with a Chinese spy basically sexual may not some those Chinese are very hot and this was apparently before he was married and hard he said he had no idea no idea she was a Chinese spy but I'm sure you can find a picture of her the two of them together you get a hot sex from Fang Fang what you you meet her at a conference you're a [ __ ] nerd you're the weirdo who always wants in front of a mirror sends you a picture let's go let's go as long as I don't tell her any secrets who gives a [ __ ] no foul no foul no harm no foul there was there we go there she is there she is look at him and look at her let's go [ __ ] dork CH of course he did she had like intentionally I think my recollection is infiltrated a bunch of like San fr Frisco sort of like Democratic donor the crazy thing is

92:58she's like a seven you know imagine if they brought up one of their Bombshells she was probably like the early ones you know the Russians send out the first [ __ ] group of people to die if you're a seven and you know how to stroke a congressman's ego you're going to be you're going to be fine yeah especially with a couple of cocktails yeah you you didn't need to send in a 10 he was probably better you trust the seven true she a regular guy Mar she was like Russian one she seduced a bunch of like 2018 exchanged her she's back in Moscow she's like we did aisch for her yeah and now isn't she isn't she like a lawmaker now she is I'm pretty sure she's a lawmaker now yeah you're right I think she was elected to the Duma or something like that so what did she do to the NRA people she would go to a bunch of CPAC and NRA conferences and ingratiate

93:46herselves with GOP officials and then she would sleep with them and then basically try and get as close to Trump as possible it's like a there's a lot of to do this right the Israeli government does this the Russian government the Chinese government what was she trying to do what was her goal it was all like soft power stuff like I think a lot of it's related to trying getting sanctions off of certain oligarchs what a lot of comes back to she was in a real like longterm ultimately relationship with like somebody high up in the NRA something like that like she was living with him and like so the idea was to get close to power I guess basically I never saw the Americans oh great [ __ ] great great great that's all I heard that was great but the same thing right it was like Russian spies that were have integrated tell me we don't do that too

94:37of course we of 100% 100% it's a dirty World fools to they're doing it do not I mean that's the argument like kicking Chinese companies out of America like hey they don't let us do it you know why too if you look at it they explicitly when they banned Google Facebook and all that they're like they're going to use it to shape our population and spy on us why would we do that and like let's get Tik Tok on in here it's all good well not only that let's like let him fly a [ __ ] balloon over the country my God spy balloon I mean the funny thing is it really is like it's such a shell game because like we know they're spying on us they know we're spying on them but you can't be so [ __ ] obvious about it where your spy balloon is there and a commercial airline jet is like spotting it and so obvious but it's floating around is

95:22it does it have power well so I don't know but it was spotted over the one of the three sites in the United States which has intercontinental ballistic missil and of course it just happened to fly there and it drifted off of course according to the Chinese government but like we already knew that their spy satellites are able to like see this area and collect whatever data there is to collect so what's the purpose of balloons it's a great question I don't know it's a great question just stick it in your face it's like when you remember when Nancy Pelosi visited Taiwan and China just shot a bunch of missiles into the ocean killed some yeah I think I think that was wildly irresponsible of her to go though I mean especially the state department and Biden they were like don't I did a j about it I think they're trying to kill that lady she's

96:05making too much money send her over there [ __ ] for every for you're stealing too much money right what does it say there they don't care about that Joe the balloon has the ability to maneuver and had changed course oh well how did it drift off course then if they have the ability to maneuver changed course I mean it didn't drift off course it seems like it's under its own power yeah so that's the the the worry about shooting it down was the payload like it's large the worry was that there would be debris that would hurt the civilian population and then the other thing I saw was that um they actually wanted to be able to like observe it more and see what it was and capabilities and whatever it might be more useful to it in the sky than shot up into a bil The Avengers have a net they can shoot out of a jet you telling

96:51me United States does have a n i don't know man that's a compromised position I like what scares me about this is I don't even so did you hear about the circumstance of why it was found cuz a commercial airline pilot is the one who saw it and so I'm like well did we know it was there before he probably so bummed out he probably was hoping it was a UFO I know let it be a UFO Jo he's like Joe Rogan's G to have me on to this is going to be great well ft that's too obvious though it's too obvious yeah it was too rudimentary wonder about what those things are that people keep spotting I mean we don't really totally know about their their capabilities as you know I go quite deep on this and uh yeah I mean do you go deep on it at all crystal or do you just roll your eyes when he starts talk I don't roll my eyes she just grabbed her drink that's an

97:45instinct I don't roll my eyes I just it's not like I don't go deep the way he does I find it interesting I find it uh question mark but I can't say I've like you know gone deep down the rabbit hole in this more important things to concentrate on in the moment I wouldn't say that I just say like for whatever reason it's not my thing that I'm like super fascinated by the mystery of alien life do you think that is a a more male oriented thing definitely possible you think so well here's the thing out of all the people that I've interviewed that are UFO experts they're all men all Sasquatch experts all men I have a joke about Sasquatch experts I think they're all unfuckable white dudes this is let is a [ __ ] gem okay don't say that about him thing you're going to find when you go looking for bigfoot black people you're more likely to find

98:31Bigfoot than you are black people looking for bigfoot it's like a bit I had I go it's all unfuckable white dudes there's like those shows of Bigfoot black people AR buying it like we got real [ __ ] going on our F did you guys get excited about this it is some white guys [ __ ] unfuckable white guys um my friend Essie Cup who we had on the screen earlier she I wouldn't say she's a sad Sasquatch expert but she's super into them of course so it's a little tiny fly in the ointment of your I don't think it's fair to put Sasquatch and UFO on the same category it 100% is cuz I don't I hope I hope they're both real I just think there's a lot more evidence on the UFO side I mean yes there is but there's also evidence that there was an animal that was a biped hom that lived on alongside of human beings oh interesting enormous one an enormous one

99:25it's called G ant athus it's absolutely real in the Pacific Northwest there was well it was in Asia and this was during the time before the ice age when the bearing land bridge was available there was an animal that they discovered in an apothecary shop in China and I believe it was in the 1920s an anthropologist was there and he found these enormous primate teeth I might be [ __ ] this up uh I don't think I am though he found these enormous primate teeth and he was like what the [ __ ] is this and where'd you get this and it led to an investigation they found the site where these things were recovered and they found more and they found uh jawbones that would indicate that this animal is bipedal which means it stood up on two legs and was [ __ ] enormous like 8ot tall gorilla like orangutang like

100:10creature that existed alongside human beings okay but we don't know exactly like when did the we know for a fact that they existed 100,000 years ago because of these bones but that doesn't mean they didn't exist 50,000 years ago or 10,000 years ago we don't know and if they did exist 10,000 years ago it makes sense why the Native Americans would have many many names for these creatures and they didn't really have mythical creatures that's what that's what a gigantopithecus would have looked like Jesus wow so it was an enormous great ape that lived alongside us and absolutely a 100,000 years ago and then they found many other creatures that were really uh interesting that we didn't know existed that abs absolutely lived alongside human beings one of them was The Hobbit man from the island of Flores so that's homo florasis I think

101:03it was Indonesia I believe right didn't they have some local lore also about that like the elders had some connectivity to when like that species existed alongside of them yes they call it the orang pendek and by the way Hawaii has a similar Legend I talked to a gentleman in Hawaii when I was there recently and he was this oldtime he was great and he was telling me all the different names that the native Hawaiians have for things and he was explaining how there was a creature that supposedly lived when the first people got here wow and it was a small hairy aplike creature that is uh similar to what's been spotted in Vietnam and in other parts of the world in these jungle areas they call it the oring pendek and it's identical to this Hobbit person so when they existed who knows they might have existed 500 years ago or 100 years

101:57ago or 50 years ago we don't [ __ ] know but we do know that there were a a bunch of different kinds of uh ap-like creatures that existed alongside of us and they think that these homo Flor enesis were really like close to human they were like on a branch like they used tools they hunted they they worked together and they might have communicated they might have had a language like we don't know see this is why I think it all connects to UFOs where it's like I just got to I got a I can't imagine but stepping back and dreaming of like Earth we don't even know what it looked like 2,500 BC beyond that we have no idea that's when written history begins you've talked a lot with Graham Hancock his ancient Apocalypse series and the reason why I think there's a connectivity is like what's possible man that's with the UFO thing

102:42I'm like and if there is ancient life here or multiple forms of alien life or you know some connectivity between that or even past contact of all this it's like our entire understanding of the world is just completely wrong and I just find that so seductive I guess like that idea maybe that's foolish and maybe that's you know part like a male thing like you're talking about but there's there's enough there that we we can't help but be interested we're what's happening you just persuaded Sager he was just [ __ ] on the Sasquatch people and now he's like all definitely talking more about homop floran the idea there was a human civilization like a million years is more likely because it definitely existed like they know that within the time that human beings were alive we're going to have stories about this creature now whether or not those

103:25stories persist long after the creature is extinct and people pretend they see it when they're really just seeing black bears that are walking upright which they do all the time I've seen black bears walk upright and if black bears have a hurt paw there was a black bear famous black bear in New Jersey that had hurt it it very badly damaged front paw so it would walk on its rear legs it would walk upright like a 7ot tall animal that's crazy which is just like if you saw it through the trees you be like oh my God it's a giant I saw one in Glacier National Park and I was like holy [ __ ] these things are so big I don't think people realiz how big of bears are bears are big well if Glacier National Park was at a brown bear or black bear yeah there was a black bear and a brown bear saw both I got really lucky we were at uh in Montana and we

104:08were at this grizzly preserve and where they taking these problematic Grizzlies that like raid people's garbage grandfather well [Laughter] they yeah and they they fed this thing a Frozen watermelon and this bear crushed this Frozen watermelon like it was a grape like you and I would do a grape just just took giant bites out of a frozen watermelon wow and I was like imagine the power of this [ __ ] thing they're so big you ever seen a Jaguar like not in live yeah I only saw one in a zoo but I mean they are some of the most majestic creatures you know about L he no I don't L Hefe is the only jaguar in the United States that's been spot in the United States they used to be prevalent yeah when the the Pioneers came across the country they they spotted multiple Jaguars they were everywhere there there's even sightings

105:02of jaguars in the northern states but um for whatever reason they either were wiped out or whatever happened but there's a Jaguar that keeps traveling from Mexico and that's El Hefe there he is there photos of him that's crazy look at him look at that [ __ ] beautiful thing I wonder how long jaguars live for like their natural life well they know this one Jaguar because ' taken so many Trail Camp photos of it their spots are you know there you can identify them from their spots if you get still photos resolution yeah and this this one Jaguar is just this lone 200b cat that makes his way through and he's just [ __ ] up deer that is wild that is wild amazing amazing animal if there's only one if they're everywhere you're [ __ ] yeah nice to watch it on the camera yeah if you're otherwise you're like a tribe in

105:49the Amazon like you go to get water you're [ __ ] terrified kind like wolves like you ever seen a wolf huge gigantic and you're like man that's pretty scary well we've eradicated them and then these [ __ ] Eco people like we need to bring them back they're our friends the wolves are amazing until they're eating your family until they're trying to get into your house your livestock or whatever I have a buddy who lives in uh BC and uh he watched one kill a horse a pack of a pack of wolves killed a horse so it was like late at night and they hear all this barking and barking and they they look out from his [ __ ] bed bedroom window to one of the Stalls and you see a pack of wolves devouring a horse wow Jesus they got really hungry and it was cold and they took a chance wow there was this a story s do you remember this there was this

106:39town in New Hampshire that like super ideological Libertarians took over and they like moved to the town they like voted themselves onto the Town Council and they went about getting rid of like every single regulation they possibly could including the ones that had to do with like the proper way to store your trash to avoid attracting bears and you don't remember this this made such an impression on me cuz it was such a like you know such a tale of like ideological arrogance you know like oh the free market will work it out well next thing you know bears are coming into town bears are mauling people they had this whole massive like bear muling issue in this New Hampshire town because of their ideology well there's an a similar situation in New Jersey in New Jersey New Jersey has the most Bears per capita of any place in the country H including

107:34Alaska I think including Alaska black bears yes all black bears but the governor ran on a platform of getting rid of the bear hunt because people think you know most of these people that are in high population areas they don't have encounters with bears they think of bears like why would you want to killed bear you [ __ ] [ __ ] but meanwhile these people are getting killed by bears a student from ruter was killed by a bear and then they started seeing a giant uptick 200% uptick in human bear encounters that were problematic we've played this video many times of what is it far Rockway far walkway New Jersey is that where it was where these [ __ ] enormous bears are duking it out in a really suburban area knocking over trash can New York City was queens or something yeah is that far Rockway no

108:21which what is it the no it just sounds right it's um it's new Jersey God damn it why can't I remember it we've played this clip rock it is Rockway okay watch this cuz it's [ __ ] bonkers the this is on people's that's like these are two 300 lb Bears they're fuckinge in your yard 100% in the yard knock and they're fighting over trash oh my so what happens is they get or maybe breeding they get access to the trash in the area and when another male is there they try to scare them scare the male off and these two bears just start duking it down and when they start duking it out they're knocking over trash cans and they're piling out into the streets so these people are in their cars filming this oh my God I mean look at Giant chunks of fur flying off of them these are huge Bears these are giant predators that will 100% kill your dog 100% kill

109:14your kids you leave a baby outside the baby's dead the bear eats it and runs away with it they don't have any morals they don't have any ethics they're playing by a totally different set of rules than you would imagine from a Disney movie wow but this is what happens when you don't control Predators the wildlife conservationists have long been saying you have to keep these animals in check because it's bad for them it's bad for the people and the the nutty people are like yeah but we're in their area but they don't understand like you know right where we are the Hill Country 200 years ago probably in this spot it was a blood bath it was pure commanche range versus uh rival Indian groups like complete just Slaughter for resources like I don't think people really get what it really it was like even 150 years ago like if you think about

110:05Buffalo and the range and the Conquering of the old west I I've read so many books in about that time period just because I'm so fascinated by it but that era of what it was like and what uh the actual West and the range and all that was it was a dangerous place like I've read a lot about Theodore Roosevelt and like some of his original encounters with uh so on some of his hunting trips and with bears and everything it's just completely completely outrageous where's the arrowhead Jamie do you know where it is it's missing oh here it is we have an arrowhead from here oh wow so I have a friend who has a ranch out here and their Ranch is overwhelmed with arrowheads really yeah they dig all the time and they find these things that's crazy like that was an absolute like a Native American Arrowhead that they used either for war or they used it for hunting aren't you

110:55not supposed to pick them up I thought I didn't pick it up it was a gift was a gift from a friend but it's in Texas I think the rules are a little bit different because it's their land uh I did find one on a hunting trip once in Nevada and I was informed that I was supposed to leave it behind yeah I knew that was they're like cuz I've looked for them before too and they're like even if you find it you just got to put I'm a law breaker bro if I find Arrowhead that shit's mine like it's like I'm not going to leave it here for somebody else to pick up get [ __ ] out here what do you think is the most uh difficult of the animals that you've hunted like Neil guy I just hunted a Neil Guy recently which is a it's an Indian animal that evolved around tigers and I've never seen an animal that runs so fast when you hit it huh I thought I

111:39I I I shot this Neil guy with a bow and arrow and it was a perfect shot and I was really sure that it was a perfect shot it was a 52 yard shot centered my pin watched the arrow hit it and that animal ran off like on a full Sprint like it wasn't even remotely injured I was like oh no like what happened and it ran 130 yard until it died at a full clip huh and it's a whole football field what what do they look like I've never heard of that see if you can pull a photo of a Neil Guy where was this like South Texas oh interesting so there's there's more Asian and exotic African animals in South Texas than are often in Asia and in uh Africa there's some animals that are in their country are in endangered but in Texas they hunt them regularly that's a Neil guy and that that is an animal that evolved around tigers and those dudes you can't get

112:33close to them and if you you hit them they run like there's nothing wrong like that animal had an arrow that went through its vitals in a perfect shot passed through its body went 30 yards past its body where I found the arrow it's kind of it's kind of built different right oh my God like deer but like super like they're tanks Juiced up yeah um I mean it was an a perfect shot the animal died it was but they say that happens with rifles they were telling me they shoot those with a 300 wind mag and they have to have another one in the chamber because the the the guide will do a follow-up shot on the animal because they're so [ __ ] tough because they evolved around Tigers wow yeah yeah so like the re is like well I'll just live off the land like good luck [ __ ] you're going to need a grocery store [ __ ] you're not designed

113:21for this that's kind of the scary part though when you real I how unconnected you are like if you don't have any skill I've been watching Last of Us and was [ __ ] fantastic the last episode just broke me of people out there no no spoilers I won't I won't say anything it's I'll watch like three years from now when it's outdated it's brutal anyway I was like man this so because I listened to your Mike Glover episode and I was like yeah man I got to get prepared I'm like I don't know what [ __ ] thing I'm like what am I doing here you know I don't know a thing and I've been doing it for 12 years yeah I've been hunting for like yeah 11 years now yeah I'm still a rookie it's one of those skills where you have to you have to put it in from a very early age and when you when you learn about indigenous tribes or you know I read a lot of

113:59history you know like the Mongols and you're into as well they start learning when they're like three or four years old like they start pulling bows before they can like barely when they can start walking so it becomes part of the actual culture itself and that level of skill it's I don't know if you could teach that at this point the W 100% yeah you could if people had to yeah people are so adap like we were we were talking the other day about people that live in the Congo that are working in these Cobalt mindes and I was like you you've got to imagine if this is what you were born into cuz humans are so adaptable we're so accustomed to whatever we're accustomed to and if you live there you would do what everyone else is doing because you would get by and if you were born into a nomadic tribe that traveled around and followed the Buffalo you

114:42would be hunting them the same way they did that's just what people do we adapt and that's the the whole idea behind Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson's theory about the starting of human civilization is that we had achieved a very high level of sophistication which explains the pyramids and gockley teepe it's explains all these immense stone structures where they move stones with some unknown technology from as as many as 500 miles away thousand tons Stones through the mountains we have no idea how the [ __ ] they did it and then you go 5,000 years later and you have barbarians and like what happened well most likely a [ __ ] natural disaster that forced people to figure out a way to adapt and overcome and I think that's one of the reasons why if we go back a few thousand years ago you have these people with these Brilliant Minds that

115:35live these unbelievably barbaric lives and I think it's because they're the descendants of people that had to survive whatever was left over after the sophisticated civilization was hit by coms Crystal just bought me a copy of the Perry Reese map that famous map which was the Ottoman uh the ottoman Admiral written like 1513 I think he drew and he based it off from the Library of Alexandria and it includes that 10,000 year old Coastline of Antarctica pretty good Christmas gift it was a great Christmas amazing I love that it's amazing and the more evidence that gets uncovered the more that's a a very viable Theory huh because of core samples the the the hard physical data of those core samples shows that somewhere in the neighborhood of 12,800 years ago there was massive impacts all over the Earth as much as 30% of the Earth shows evidence of this 30% of the

116:26earth shows evidence of aridium in high levels which is very rare on Earth but very common in space Nano diamonds from the impact carbon from burnt everything I think people got [ __ ] up somewhere around 12,800 years ago the end of the Ice Age and I think those guys are right I think the more data that gets uncovered which is like almost every day they're finding new discoveries that point to that they're finding new impact craters they found a giant impact crater in Antarctica they found a giant one off the coast Co of New Zealand like we get hit and when we get hit all bets are off all your [ __ ] hard drives are useless All the known knowledge that you get off the internet is no longer available to you and we start from scratch and that is a 100% possibility for us right now right right now we're like fearful of

117:14sort of the other direction but um have you played with the the chat GPT stuff like the AI That's like going to I don't know revolutionize everything or will it we don't know yeah that's a question right like um we've been playing with it we're actually we're doing a live show tonight in Austin and well it'll be last night by the time this comes out probably but um we put into the chat GPT like write a monologue in the voice of sagur and jedy about UFOs and it does a thing it's service like the grammar is good you know it's it's doesn't sound like sagur at all like the sort of grammar they use and the way they genten it's time we have an important conversation about you want to be grandiose it was very important it be like a n that'd be like 90s politician like ladies and gentlemen it's time we have you heard Lex Friedman talk about it though Lex

118:07was my podcast ful through your podcast the day i' be interested to hear what he has to say yeah he said chat 4.0 is on the way oh that's right has more information that's going to be available going way way way better see I listen to Sam Alman who's the CEO of open AI which makes chat GPT I heard he got a question about the fourth version because there is a lot of speculation that it's going to be like a whole other Universe in terms of his capabilities that it's going to be close more closely approximating actual intelligence in a way that's going to really super freak people out like those are the that's what a lot of people like Lex and others I guess are uh projecting he was really trying to pour cold water on that idea but that may just be because he doesn't want to get it overhyped he wants to set the bar low so that when the thing

118:54actually drops you know it it lands with a appropriate I guess Fanfare well the real thing the of concern is that this didn't exist four years ago 3 years ago two years ago and now it exists and it's gotten better really quickly maybe it did exist two years ago but it wasn't publicly cons consumable it didn't have a chat function was a thing see that's the thing is actually uh this was again you know listening to this interview with Sam Altman he was talking about how he was actually really surprised by the way that the public when they saw when they got to play with it were like oh my God because in his mind working so closely with the technology this just felt like the next logical step but for people who hadn't been deeply you know meshed in the details of the technology when suddenly you had this thing in front of you and you could play with it

119:41and then you've got this like the image generators and whatever that it it kind of blew people's minds and we've been talking about how um you've got universities professors who are freaked out yeah this is our favorite about kids cheating on tests and you know using this to write their essays and whatever and so I do think it's going to require a kind of entire rethink of the um of the University experience of what which parts of like what parts of what human beings can do are more difficult to replicate by the machine because the machine can spit out a saga and Jetty theoretical UFO monologue but it can't create new ideas right it's lacking a sort of like creativity and for now yes for now for now that's the the the real thing is for now because I think it's going to and I think within five years it's going to be better at us better better at being us

120:32than us but that's actually important and that's one of the fun things we're seeing through the chat GPT uh education which I love and actually it's fascinating we get a ton of feedback on those segments because it's a lot of college kids are fed up with [ __ ] busy work a lot of professors are tearing up their entire cabus and they're like all right now we're going to go to oral examination we're going to have a discussion in class and I was like that's great that's fantastic you shouldn't be doing a [ __ ] essay first draft but but that also teaches you how to write which is actually important actually I don't know if it does actually it could well well but if you have so the the comparison they make is to like the uh invention of the calculator yeah it's like you still need to understand the math to know what to

121:14put into the calculator but you don't need to know how to do all that [ __ ] by hand can we pause this I have to pee so B yeah absolutely let's use we'll be right back woo all right we're back think so much better what we colleges and and I do think part of the freak out right now is because most automation that has like killed people's jobs has been service workers it's been blue collar and now you have a lot of white collar workers who are like oh [ __ ] this could be coming for me you see the BuzzFeed thing that BuzzFeed hired chat GP or is going to use chat GPT to autogenerate listicles yeah they they laid off yeah there we go they just laid 10% of their staff off oh my god oh big fear and they stock didn't there stock like yeah their stock went up I want to say 95% in a single day fire people will

122:07give you more money hooray what a great system we have not great yeah but doesn't that leave room for substack people yes doesn't it leave room for creators that you get an obvious look into their mind and they take pride in their writing I would say to young kids I would say [ __ ] around with chat TPT I'd say figure out what it does because it's an important thing but learn how to write I think it's good for you and I think if you want to get better at whatever you're doing that requires writing like if you're going to be a journalist even if you use chat GPT to give you a framework you should learn how to be creative absolutely it's good for you I do think that's a good point and it's where the calculator analogy kind of fails because the calculations are the calculations there's no like style or voice that goes into it whereas

122:58you know I mean Sager and I write a lot every single week I know you write a lot as part of you know being a comedian and when you do that a lot over time you develop your own voice you develop your own style that you maybe aren't going to come to if you're starting with the chat GPT framework even if you're not just wholesale like taking whatever chat gives you and like selling that off as your own even if you're taking it and workshopping whatever it's not quite the same as staring at the blank piece of paper and creating it in your voice voice satisfaction absolutely the satisfaction when you write something that you enjoy that you're like oh I did a lot of work on this and I'm I'm really proud of it yeah it it is I mean you know we write these monologues for the show and like we do three a week so some of them are going to be great some of

123:45them are going to be you know solid some are going be like that was a bit of a struggle but when you get that one that it's like you have the idea and you're able to lay it down in a way that you feel like really captures what you were trying to say and like makes a point that you feel like hasn't been made before that's it's wonderful that's why I'm celebrating it with the classroom though cuz I had to do when I was in college like we had so many [ __ ] like busy work quizzes that they were just doing to a sign so they could check a box on the syllabus now they're sitting in the classroom being like what do you think they have to test you live to see if you're either paying attention I think that's great like that's ultimately like what did we really get out of college like I don't know uh in terms of what I use right now even you

124:24were talking about writing a lot of that was [ __ ] academic writing when I learned how to write for journalism it's totally different it's like all the opposite rules actually in terms of the way you do it but from what's being what's useful in life is being able to understand ideas part of what our show is consider an alternative point of view the famous Plato quote to the mark of an intelligent mind to consider an opinion something something like an opinion that he doesn't necessarily agree with it's I'm butchering it but that is what you could possibly get out of higher education today coming together taking a four-year pause on your life talking with this professor there's a professor right now at upen Wharton who's actually requiring chat PT in the classroom he's like no no no no for entrepreneurship we're all going to use it we're going to

125:07learn how to use this tool together and then we're going to talk about it in the classroom that's what education actually can be and so I talk a lot about higher education corruption and and really what it is to me is you know place is charging $80,000 a year which is outrageous putting these kids into and not teaching them anything which is actually useful in the real world and I think this is useful learning it's just like a stamp of credential you know it's a credential that's what it is I mean I will say so I study economics and we obviously talk a lot about economics but the [ __ ] that I learned was like you know it's all very doctrinaire it was all very like supply and demand yeah I mean it was like a lot of stuff I had to like unlearn the propaganda of you know UL that's a great Point too this the Federal Reserve works

125:53and then we're doing all these segments about the fed I'm like well maybe it shouldn't and that then then it's like oh this is all a human design system so you'll read books it's like the something on Jackal Island on the creation of the fed and then what the fed's actual mandate is and you're like oh the FED has a lot of power over our society over our economy over our politics actually like there's a lot of arguments about certain politicians never would have gone If the Fed uh hadn't been doing the policies that they had like Jimmy Carter in 1979 with Paul vulker we're living actually in an era right now of tremendous departure from previous Federal Reserve policy we went from a zero interest rate environment to higher interest rates the economy right now is the craziest thing you've ever seen so the jobs numbers actually came

126:31out this morning uh we are at one of the lowest unemployment rates in modern American history 1969 right so it's so it's a great economy right but wage stagnation uh it's not keeping up with inflation of of goods try buying a house right now mortgage rates are a disaster they're falling slightly we've been talking a lot about the used car industry car loans are a total nightmare you're seeing all these charlatans in the economy like what is this what has been created the tech layoffs is a good example you have Google cutting 10% Amazon cutting 10,000 jobs Salesforce cutting 10,000 jobs all of this was just because of cheap money and so that makes you take a step back and be like wow like the FED is a non-democratic institution you and I have no input on the FED whatsoever the President appoints a chair and the rest of those people get confirmed by Congress and

127:20then after that it's up to them they could nuke the entire us economy if they wanted to it's literally up to like 14 people and you're like holy [ __ ] like so much of my life is determined by these folks and I don't think people realize that and it's intentional that they make it very opaque and make people feel dumb like they don't understand it it's intentional very in this is actually Alan Greenspan sort of innovated this of like Fede where any pronouncement he made was like incomprehensible if you didn't have a PhD in economics and it hasn't always been like that in American history you know fed policy monetary policy was hotly debated there were like populist revolts over it William Jennings there's a real anti-populist movement to consolidate power in the hands of a few like credential bureaucrats by posturing like oh we're

128:09just sort of like doing the math and it's just a calculation and there's no morals involved we don't need to understand what other people think about it and to make it feel like oh we've got this cuz we're the credentialed experts when you know in reality these are things that affect people's lives but on the fakery in the economy I think this is one of the under told stories of our era is the we were talking a lot about incentives earlier the incentives for Corporate America are not to innovate not to create new products certainly not to invest in their Workforce it's all to engage in financial engineering to reward themselves and their stockholders so stock BuyBacks this year I just saw a stat largest first quarter or first month of the year stock BuyBacks that we've ever had um you look at companies like airline companies where you think

129:01oh they're making their money by like flying people around and whatever No actually they're giant hedge funds and predom like most of their money comes from Financial manipulation and like it started with hedge let me hedge the cost of jet fuel but then that turns into big business and so they basically become Wall Street Apple this is one of um Rona ruhar who's a very great uh very smart Financial thinker wrote a book that that highlighted this statistic Apple when they released the iPod their stock that year actually went down when they did Financial manipulation and like gigantic stock BuyBacks their stock goes up so it just shows you how much of our whole economy big picture is basically fake geared towards Financial engineering and not towards actual Innovation development like growing a company based on a good idea and a good product o well you talk

129:53about this with your phone all the time right you're like my iPhone what what was like iPhone 4 is not all that different from iPhone 14 that's an exaggeration but like iPhone 11 and iPhone 14 aren't that different Apple has actually increased its Revenue significantly by through its bundle of services by increasing the amount of cost it can pull from the App Store but I've got my Mac here so everything is locked in here software as a service everything is linked into the Apple bundle that Tim Cook's great there's a great book uh I forget exactly the name I think it's Apple life after Steve so after Steve Jobs died Steve was a product guy he would invest hundreds of billions of dollars into R&D into creating gamechanging beautiful new products Tim Cook is a managerial type his job is to squeeze as much money out of the stock price so how do you do that

130:37a you park a hundred billion dollars or whatever overseas so you don't have to pay taxes on it B you don't invest necessarily in brand new R&D you invest in making sure that people get the new phone every year you invest in paying $299 for that iCloud bubble I mean imagine what that is at scale and at scale what they're doing is locking people into services with apple which are recurring subscription Revenue it's a shitload of money and it juice I think their stock is like at the highest level ever but when's the last time you okay you have a Tesla like when you got into a Tesla it's like picking up the iPhone 4 for the first time and you're like holy [ __ ] like I can't even believe this is real like this is a new thing the first time I had an iPhone 4 and it had that beautiful back and uh it was like Steve Jobs described it as looking like

131:21a like a camera or something I remember holding it and just being like this is the coolest [ __ ] thing I've ever seen I felt the same way whenever I got into a Tesla I'm like I'm not in a car I'm in a computer I'm in a computer that drives and that level that leap like think about how rare that is over the last 20 years you had mark andreon on and Peter teal also has a famous quote on this he's like we were promised flying cars and all we got was 140 characters except now we have 280 characters it's like yeah I mean you know we had some tech advancements but at the end of the day like I've been using the same relative phone for the last 10 years and if you were to ask me in 2012 when first time I picked up that iPhone 4 I would been like no way man 10 years from now who's going to know we're going to have Oculus

131:59we're going to be living in this like Brave New World for example and we're not really there chat GPT is the first time I felt excited about something where I'm like that's new that's something now is it good I don't know well I mean any sort of tech progress there's good there's bad there's trade-off there's trade-off you know and you hope the good is more than the bad it usually is what's fascinating is there's a NeverEnding push towards technological innovation that we don't ever see stopping we are 100% addicted to having the newest best Greatest Latest and then companies will continue to do that I mean they're going to be manipulating stock prices they're going to be but at the core of it if you want people to buy [ __ ] you have to make better [ __ ] yeah and so you're you're going to have people that I wish that

132:44was the core of it though now right well at least at the end of the line of what gets done so like if you looked at the Earth from above I I use this analogy all the time if you didn't know us if you were from some other culture some other planet and you were trying to observe what human beings do well they make stuff they keep making better stuff there's a bunch of other stuff that goes on there's a bunch of um this's keeping up with the Jones's materialism but what that does ultimately is it forces you to buy more stuff like we are that the materialism Instinct that people have you know it's a it's a base thing it's like silly why do it it's a part of human beings for some strange reason the status thing and that status thing allows people to continue to innovate and buy new stuff and keep continue to make better and better versions of that

133:30thing so you're compelled to buy it and that's ultimately leading towards something right so much of the of public companies in particular this is where the incentives are the most [ __ ] up the amount that they spend on research and development now is way less than it used to be number one and dramatically less than private companies because again the I was telling you the other day about this what might be the greatest corporate con like in history from this um Indian industrialist who was at least up until like the last week the richest man in Asia it's like four fourth richest man on the planet after like you know Elon and uh Bezos and and Bill Gates and there's no doubt his company is big he's got close ties in with the Modi government he's built ports he's like involved in energy uh runs airports all this all this stuff

134:22but there was a big 100 page report that came out from this group called Hindenberg research which is known for sort of like identifying Frost sech they're short sellers so let me be clear like they have a financial incentive also on the other side they're betting on this company going down but what they revealed was essentially that this guy allegedly they deny it had set up all of these shell companies that they were using to manipulate their stock which propped up the company's value which also hid how bad their like debt situation was that his brother was controlling a bunch of these shell companies and so over the course of the past what week and a half his suite of companies like seven different companies have lost like half their value 100 billion in value hundred billion dollar he's lost half of his fortune in a week

135:1210 days is actually not on all all that dissimilar from the spbf thing which is basically morius which is offshore they were using marcius based shell companies to cash there that they actually owned to buy their own stock inflating the stock price based on inflation of stock they're able to borrow actual cash against that stock so the actual value of the stock wasn't as high as it supposedly was SPF kind of did the same thing by issuing that own token which they then claimed had value and then borrowing actual cash based on the value of this false token and that's how you get the billions and billions that Stack Up on each other and this would all be funny if Nani was not one of the most powerful men in India if his companies did not prop up and not was invested in by the I think it's the State Bank of India there is a tremendous amount of

136:04exposure in the Indian economy to the and Nani is a hero there alongside Ambani and a few of the other industrialist it's a good book if anyone's interested called the billionaire Raj which is specifically about the rise of these new Indian oligarchs and the amount of power that they yield in India is tremendous so this is not a joke I mean this really would be like if Bezos was going down it is that level if but if anything it's not even comparable because we have a lot of Bezos is they really only have like 12 like 15 these was number one he weest man not just in India but in all of Asia and uh like that half his wealth gone he they were doing a a a stock sale $2.5 billion raised more cash for the company whatever and um he had to actually back out of it because of all of this there's a video of I'm talking about we have we are well capitalized we

137:05sheet and his his response now listen I I want to be clear the response was 435 pages I do not claim that I read all of it but in part what it said was like was basically like this is an attack on India rather than responding to the specific claims he's playing to sort of like Indian Nationalism toy smart smart thing to do if you criticize Anthony fouchy you're criticizing ex that pulled the fouchy move that's what he did I I think it's working for him quite as well though wow that's crazy right wow what a house of cards how many businesses are like that exactly who knows good question that the thing about SF was if CZ never does that tweet right what happens man he could be he could be on the Forbes he could be not even the Forbes 400 on the Forbes 100 likef if this whole thing had been going it's kind of like made off made off only fell

137:55apart I went deep on made off after SBF and it was only 2008 that brought him down like if if the recession doesn't happen made off sails off into the sun like he's fine I think I think SBF I think whether it was then or sometime in the future I think his ticket was going to get punched because well he's on amphetamines and banging nine other weirdos in a penous in the Bahamas when those people are off the [ __ ] rails they were nuts true true I would be rooting for them if they weren't doing a Swindle if they were really super Geniuses that were like pulling off some amazing Financial move I'm be like [ __ ] yeah go nerds let's go but no I think because I mean so much of crypto is collapsing now and I mean that's why it looks like he denies wrongdoing Etc uh it that's why it looks like they got so overextended alamoo which was basically

138:47like the crypto hedge fund because they placed all these bets the bets were going south they need more cash and so they're tapping into their customer accounts over it it's all story of Leverage yeah I just feel like with with so many of these uh crypto Bubbles and schemes and whatever it's like they're just rediscovering all of the worst ills of the banking system you know it's like oh we did this new thing we we discovered a bank run like wow this is what happens when people like freak out about in The Green Room that they need regulation well they need some do you have to have they needfor they need it is a little complicated because I mean look ultimately you know FTX was unw the the existing laws do not let you commit fraud right right so there needs to be enforcement now one of the one of the things that we are keeping an eye on is

139:43at some point in the FTX runup when he's buying all these politicians and he's buying all his like puff piece coverage in the New York Times and everywhere else um there were as actually some effort to investigate him coming from the SEC and there was a bipartisan group of lawmakers that sent a letter that was like hey he's our boy like don't TCH the crypto industry what are you doing he Happ to Don all them yeah specifically about this guy and so did that lead to the regulator saying like H I guess we're going to like take a light touch we're not going to dig into this I don't know that's a question that I have about how all this works but um you know I think that's part of why him in particular cultivated this image on Capitol Hill he cultivated this image with the media and was able to to hold up this scheme for as long as he did

140:30yeah it's a tough one like you were I don't know on the one hand I'm I'm a lot more I guess I'm more sympathetic to the original idea of Bitcoin you know like when we think and I to be fair Bitcoin is a very different than a lot of these other [ __ ] coins that are out there in terms of the invention by uh by the in by the invention of this mysterious man and then it has a limited number of Supply the original selling point of it as a h against inflation and also where I thought it was the most important was the idea of being able to get around sanctions regulation people being able to censor you where a lot of that came apart though this was scary was if you remember right before Ukraine what was one of the biggest stories in the Country Canada and the Canadian Freedom protesters and how the Canadian government was seizing their Banks and

141:13then what was even crazier is they were actually seizing their Bitcoin so it actually showed us one of the big choke points in crypto I I have some friends who work in the industry and I haven't really got gotten a good answer on this which is you know to be able to seize Bitcoin that's because a lot of it was sent on the platforms which are itself regulated so for example coinbase is still subject in the United States to us regulation in Canada similarly so the idea of the censorship free free money it's possible if you know how to do it I barely know how to do it I'm not wa wait a minute so they they the government of Canada went into coinbase and extracted Bitcoin I'm not going to say it was coinbase necessarily but they were see Jamie I'm sure you can find this it was Canadian government seizes cryptocurrency sent by US citizens to

141:54the actual Canadian free Freedom protesters and that was one of the problems was that because some of that was on the exchanges which are subject to regulation it's the same thing as if I were trying to wire them money to a prohibited group in Canada but you were looking at that and you're like man you know it that level of uh censorship resistance which I really still really believe in like we got to have something you know in terms of there's a current lot of pressure right now for the fed and for the United States to create like a centralized digital currency and even I mean essentially cash we don't we basically live in a quasi cashless Society right now if you think about China One of the way that they're able to implement their social credit score system is everything is within the WeChat app uh over there and alipay it's

142:35all integrated not only for your social credit core system your Uber all of that is there and you tap to pay well that's great for convenience it's also oh if you piss off the government like you can't pay for anything anymore you can't get a bus ticket you can't get all that so I don't know what the the problem is when you have the Wild Wild West the people are going to rise to the top are it's not an accident that you end up with like Psychopathic charlatans like SPF at the top of this thing you know because it is like the time in a way the time before you had like a central bank and when you had all these different currencies competing with each other in the US and so I too was sympathetic to the original idea behind crypto which is like you know look Fiat money is also just based on what we all decide to put value on now I would say like our fiat

143:27currency is also backed by the United States government or the military Etc ET being the most powerful country on the planet so there is more than just like a belief in it at this point but okay and so if we have this like mode of exchange and it's sort of like Anarchist principles of organization it was really a response a a a philosophical response the failures of 2008 when you see how bankrupt are and corrupt our existing financi institutions are and how rigged and how much they lie and how captured the political system is and so I understand the impetus for it but in reality it has never been used as like actual currency to a significant degree it just became a like purely speculative vehicle and to your point like the idea that the three of us could just go out and be like we're making Rogen coin and like we bought we can make a shitload of money H

144:23Kim Kardashian to sell you Rog coin and if we can like pump it up and do The Confidence Game enough then we can run away with real cash and leave all these people holding the bag when I look at that I'm like I think this went astray yeah it went astray 100% no doubt I think this went inevitable yeah I think it new emerging thing you're going to have some crazy people that rise to the top like what Crystal was saying with the original US currency you know we didn't have centralized green backs in the United States till the Civil War and that was because the government literally wanted to be able to print money and buy weapons and goods with it without having to pay gold before that we had state issued and Bank notes which was like a total free-for-all um in the US it was actually kind of wild and it literally took the Civil War to be able

145:06to push back against that and guess what there was a ton of charlatans there were silver runs there were Bank runs there was like multiple panics of like 1816 or whatever or even leading up to the um Great Depression and the stock market crash of 1929 there was a lot of there was a whole buildup in the 20s of people were introduced to the idea of buying stock on margin and like they didn't really underst understand stand what it meant and there were all these like local dealers who were getting them in on it and there was you know just tons of fraud charlatans people lined all this stuff and so after 1929 you know there were a lot of banking reforms that basically made banking boring right they separated all the gambling and wild speculation out from the just like basic customer deposit it like regular bank that people go to and then you know over

145:56the years that was eaten away and those regulations were eaten away and eventually you ended up sort of back to a a pre-1 1929 situation where they were again allowed to speculate in these wild ways and there was no separation and so after the crash the housing crash in 2008 there was a effort to reform the banking sector there were some things that were done through the Dodd Frank Financial reform but they never went back to just separating out those two pieces and making it boring again the way that it boring and stable the way that it was and so to me I understand the response of crypto and looking at this and being like this system is [ __ ] we need to just like do our own thing like this is corrupt it's disgust I totally get that but I think the only answer to it is to have better reforms of the existing system to make it like

146:50safe and less corrupt and not have this wild speculation that can create these bubbles that just like you know destroy the entire economy and people's livelihoods is that feasible yeah that's well that's what they would say they're like look the system is corrupt it's if if if 2008 happens and we have Dodd Frank and the system doesn't get fixed like what are we supposed to do I actually get that uh I don't know I'm really of two minds of it on the one hand like I deeply sympathize with the individualism of like look we're going to take it into our own hands boys nobody's coming to save us like this is all we got there are a lot of Preppers actually you Bitcoin are sitting on hundreds of millions of dollars because they bought in very early so shout out to those guys on the other look at the end of the day systems can change if enough people actually want to do

147:31something about it yeah we've talked a lot about the stock market ban I think that's actually probably step one uh if we get to the point where we can just ban members of Congress from Trading stocks the institutional trust I think that we could all then have within the system just in a baseline level it would help a lot it would help a lot to be able to get that but of course Nancy Pelosi is the speaker she first she says what was we we live in a free market economy we're allowed to participate participate when she said that like push the microphone locked up the stage Nanos is pretty good that was wild when she just walked off the stage like that is wild I mean she's not the only one though I mean there some of it's a completely bipartisan issue and a lot of these guys uh and you know they'll claim they're like look I don't have any inside

148:18information I'm like look [ __ ] you're guilty like you got to prove innocent honestly I mean whether listen they do and like obviously these are not Geniuses and they're all like beating the market and beating people who are expert at this and whatever Soros and Warren Buffett are not as good as Paul Pelosi oh wow he's better he's better at trading he's just trade just the other day right before the antitrust suit was filed is sold like $3 million and once again you're just never going to convince me that you didn't know about that like you're just not going to knew okay let's let's theoretically say all right we believe it like they didn't use their inside information it almost doesn't matter because ultimately the bottom line is people [ __ ] think that you used your information and you know are benefiting from it and by the way

149:04when you look overall like you could look at any individual trade and be like oh maybe maybe not who knows but when you look at the numbers overall and you're like all you [ __ ] are beating the market no [ __ ] how is that possible if you look at the actual speculation the the actual sales trades yeah they [ __ ] know they know something and they're not doing anything about it unusual whales shout out to him he's really the one of the guys who sparked this whole movement CU unusual whales he's like an anonymous Twitter account and he's one of the first people who actually journalist type he published the first trading this was like 2021 uh when maybe 2020 actually were the some of the first people who actually picked it up originally about the Congressional trading numbers we went through the exact Senate he Loops

149:48it all together as an institution and the way that it was able to beat the market consistently year after year after and this is all publicly available D shout out to him he's a great dude yeah definitely give him a follow he he's really uh he does really good work you can actually see it all right there the full trading report on politicians in 2022 and again totally bipartisan Debbie waserman Schultz Patrick Fallen Susie Lee David Joyce Gary Peters all look at the blue and the red there all within the graph and you can even see like look it's uh it's everybody like from all across the board people who are supposedly against the system people who are totally within the system and that's what makes it so disgusting we have got to ban this like 19.8% what does that mean well that she was down %. well and that's the other thing with Paul Pelosi

150:34the guy is extraordinarily leveraged like he's always trading options he's not even just buying and selling individual stocks he's making much larger bets on these things I mean he's got $100 million and access to [ __ ] you and I don't have but Debbie Debbie werman Schultz at the top there she I don't even know 51% on a year-over-year for in 2022 crazy I mean if you compare that to the S&P 500 I actually be curious or what the 2022 yeah there you go so S&P 500 is down 18% look at every single one of these individual members who are able to have portfolios which are beating the total Market it's outrageous off her game though that she's actually off her game sounds like they threw just cuz everybody was on their [ __ ] [ __ ] look at look at the red and blue oh it's by partisan 100% complely And the top is

151:26red well this is and this is like a story of like hope and it's very depressing because there was a whole Grassroots movement to be like bipartisan you know the Republicans were pissed off about Pelosi and Democrats were pissed off about the Republicans like everybody was like all right this is [ __ ] up right any thinking person who cares about the country be like this is [ __ ] up why are we doing this and so then because there's this organic movement you see actually some people in the mainstream press start to cover it there was actually a reporter at Insider they started digging into the details of these trades and compiling reports that leads to that when you're talking about Nancy py at that press conference that leads to her actually getting asked a question about it and wasn't it incredibly revealing her response in

152:11that moment that leads to a backlash Kevin McCarthy sees an opportunity with Republicans about to take it he starts poing like oh if Republicans take the house we're going to do the stock ban of course they haven't said [ __ ] about that since and Pelosi actually feels some pressure like all right we're going to do we're going to try a thing and they sort of like poison pill that to make sure it doesn't happen too and that's where the you know it's a mixed bag because you're like all right we got it on the menu there was a lot of pressure politicians heard it they had to do something but then both parties again found ways to just completely you know let the issue slide and not actually have to change anything that is an independent media story though because that's one of those where that guy publish it we started talking this is

152:48not just us this is a lot of people Dave pory there's a lot of other people out there who've talked about it a lot of Independent Media people like you have also brought it up that kind of put it in the cultural pop culture conversation you got ticktockers out there doing Pelosi trades like they have huge accounts where gen Z and Millennials are totally bought into how corrupt the system is that floats upward with the outrage Insider picks it up and President Biden actually originally had a line in his State of the Union just last year where he was going to endorse a congressional stock raing ban the line was pulled at the very last minute W line all you know you listen to those state of the it's like a laundry list check checking the Box on every [ __ ] thing 25 check boxes and that's the line that's the line that gets pulled amazing

153:30right and whose requests that's a great question I would love for somebody in the press to dig into that and you know Biden to his credit when he was a Senator he actually had a personal role for himself he did not engage in this he did not buy and sell stock so he would actually have a place of moral authority to say like let's not do this anymore but somebody got to him wow mhm yeah that's a that's a real corruption story dirty business yeah well and again like Republican you know all these people like the Republican hold Downs or Kevin McCarthy posing like populace or whatever this was not one of the demands that they made of like let's get Stu should have made that demand they should have made it but you know there's a reason why they didn't and like I said more public outrage we talk about it right now maybe it'll help honestly I

154:14really there's a lot of Republican uh lawmakers who are obsessed with the JRE maybe they'll listen to this there you go make your pitch I mean and like I said McCarthy he brought it up at a moment when he thought it would serve him politically but then the moment he actually got the gavl and took power nothing that's the that's the key to uh getting what you want in politics though that's you know look these people they're never going to do anything because it's the right thing you got to force them to do it so that it's politically advantageous and look there's actually a lot of room for some politician out there originally I think it was John ooff the senator from Georgia he was he's a young guy he's like 30 something he's like maybe like 37 uh relatively young he I guarantee you pretty online from what I can tell he was the one who caught this he goes

154:54oh I'll just introduce a bill to ban this he got a ton of good press for being the first Senator to actually propose a ban so we need to make it and create a system where right now it's politically advantageous to sell out to K Street which is the lobbyist that's where they all sell out to Big Business Wall Street military industrial complex any of these people I think what I would love to do and you know it's one of the aims of the show with creating and rise with Independent Media and working with everybody is to create an alternate system where you get rewarded for we had a big conversation about Ukraine just let one politician say it right now we've had like maybe two whove Ever Raised any questions Rand Paul was one of the old people he goes I'm not going to even vote against the aid for Ukraine let's just have an auditor to make sure

155:39that it's all being insector General nothing they don't even vote for that yeah and and by the way like what did we just talk about zilinsky just fired like half of his cabinet for corruption allegations who do you think's paying the cabinet who's paying all the bills we're Bal we're literally balancing their budget the United States Congress is like their economy is completely propped up by the United States and it might lead us to World War III that's possible certainly possible what but when we were talking about Ukraine one of the things that I wanted to bring up that I didn't is is there a solution like if we're not going to donate tanks and missiles and jets what what is this the rational solution is there a way to mitigate the loss of life is there a way to negotiate a way out of this is there a way on paper other than you know

156:30Russia saying you win like what what is the way well the way would be look these are the conditions Ukraine at which we are going to support you after that we are not going to provide you offensive Aid because we believe that we should have a diplomatic solution you could convene I mean look there's been no real effort between President Biden and Vladimir Putin to actually even sit down right now there's all these uh EU G7 leaders that are actually inside of Ukraine none of them are asking any questions about diplomacy it's very really what it is is this is a grand European NATO problem so we all need to sit down together and hash it and look if the Russians pull out of them that then okay like game on like you're the ones who are pulling out you're the ones who are saying that we're not going to have any engagement on this whatsoever

157:16but we haven't even tried that it was in the very beginning of the war we actually there were some negotiations that were happening yeah that's a I'm not going to pretend this would be like easy like oh put me in there and I like make it and that's it's like this [ __ ] that Trump is true thing now he's like we'll get a deal on day 24 hours very easy to do it's like you're ridiculous like it's not easy to do it's a complex situation be incredibly difficult there may be no opening for diplomacy especially right now but Sager is right to point to the fact that early on in this conflict there actually were meanings happening between Russian officials and Ukrainian representatives there were talks that were happening and reportedly they were kind of working out an outline there were still some very difficult sticking points you know based

158:02on the the reporting that's available and Boris Johnson who was at that point prime minister of the UK and of course they have been our closest Ally in all of this was dispatched to go to keev and give the message to to zalinski this was reported actually in Ukrainian press we do not want you to make a deal that was our posture we do not want diplomacy we do not want negotiations so the thing that I object to is the idea that is sold by Biden and others of like oh it's just it's just up to Ukraine that's [ __ ] they are where they are 100% because of us this is an incredibly dangerous situation because of the proxy nature of it because Russia certainly sees themsel and they accurately should as being in a proxy war versus us and so the idea that we have no say and no influence over whether or not there are negotiations is completely bunk and so

159:01you know that's the piece where the my other concern is that we're sort of building up to another Afghanistan situation where you know we went in with one goal like okay we're going to get the bad guys we're going to get Osama and then when we failed at that we end up with this 20-year occupation and total disaster at the end of it and no one can really say how or why we were there for so long like how do we get to some sort of exit ramp in Ukraine and that here the state the stakes are so much higher because as you point out it's like nuclear war and World War III on the line and even if that's like a tiny chance we should care a lot about that tiny chance did you see uh Jimmy D on Tucker Carlson yes yeah he talking about what was he talking about China I think that's what it was I saw a clip that was floating around see if you can

159:49play it it was the other day but he was was talking about the industrial military complex yes and the influence that they have on on what we're doing in the world and that this idea that you know we're some sort of have you found it I don't want to paraphrase it but he went on this very very powerful anti-war rant let's play this from the beginning should I use a different Source first well just try I don't know what this channel is Jamie I'm pretty sure it's on his Twitter uh I thought I saw saw uh on Jimmy's Twitter I thought I saw a clip that was floating around there on Jimmy door's Twitter yeah that real quick sorry what was that one the one I had yeah was something about China it's it just I don't know that was the clip I knew that he was on Tucker I knew he was there to talk about China I'm not that we're the ones provoking this war

160:49just like we provoked the war in Ukraine we are now provoking a war with China and what who who benefits I'll tell you right now your enemy is not China your enemy is not Russia your enemy is the military-industrial complex which has been fleecing this country to the tunes of hundreds of billions and trillions of dollars how many times are we going to have a defense secretary say hey we can't account for $2 trillion in the Pentagon again that like which is happened twice now in my lifetime so again people are being uh uh the War Machine cannot be stopped who's running this country the war machine it certainly isn't Joe Biden making these decisions I would like to know who is making the decisions and I just want to remind everybody the United States is the world's terrorist we just set the Middle East on fire in the last 20 years

161:36and now we're doing a proxy war in Ukraine which we provoked NATO provoked and it was just admitted that we provoked it by the former prime minister of Germany and now we're trying to saber r with with China and they're predicting a war again China's not going to invade us China's not our enemy that we might have an economic War that's what these are these are economic Wars these are Wars for in Ukraine it's about liquefied natural gas and making sure Germany and Russia never come together because we fear Russia's uh natural resources and Manpower and we fear them getting together with Germany with their technology and their capital and so that's why we blew up the nordstream pipeline that's why we're doing the Ukraine war this is all about hity imperialism and economics and if there's Marines somewhere it's there because they're about to steal some natural

162:24resources from another country as everybody screaming about what a bad guy Putin is for invading Ukraine the United States is currently occupying a third of Syria and which third is that it's the third that has the oil and how do I know we're there to steal their oil because the president of the United States said so we're not we're not even benefiting economically that's I mean of course that's the r Jimmy D I appreciate it thank you Nord man I forgot about that one yeah you remember how immediately people were like oh it was Russia all of that and then an independent panel actually just came out I want to say a month ago and they're like no we don't think it was Russia it's like well who was it they're like we may never know yeah like oh really well it's really only a few people who could have done it never know never know I mean the bottom

163:12killed EP we may we may never know may never know I mean the the bottom line is like we've talked a lot about incentives what's the incentive for the people who make bombs like they're trying to make money so and they they're very influential they donate a lot of money in Washington they they go you know revolving door not just from like government officials but also they go on CNN and MSNBC and whatever and it's never disclose like oh and by the way this person is like on the board of rathon and happens to have a vested financial interest in what we ultimately do here so listen it's it's at the core the profit motive is at the core of a lot of what happens in how's speech when he was leaving office that was interesting you know something crazy is that even the Navy secretary we just covered this he came out and was like in a few months we may have to choose

163:59between arming ourselves and arming Ukraine and then the Biden Administration made him come up and quote clear up that comment he's like oh I didn't mean it that way it was just well no I actually did mean it that way because it turns out that we've been sending so many Munitions and uh stuff that we've have over to Ukraine yeah there you go if the defense industry can't boost production arming both Ukraine and the US will become challenging he literally came out and said that we may have to choose if these weapons makers don't get their act together because actually and this is the other thing where you know military-industrial complex one of the things that we forget is they're not actually particularly good at what they do if we look at the F35 program it was a colossal disaster it was over a trillion dollars it cost way too much or

164:40take costs way too much money the US I want to say it was the Zumwalt class uh a new I'm Navy people are going to freak out of me but it's either a destroyer or something it's supposed to be new generation ship we were going to build like dozens of them we only ended up building three they cost a shitload of money the gun is uh cost a million dollars round in order to fire it so we don't spend we're not able to even produce what we need this was a big fight during the Iraq War I where guys in the Pentagon would rather fund boondoggle programs than stuff that was actually protecting the lives of our soldiers like mraps like they didn't want to fund some of the stuff that was actually protecting American soldiers on the ground in Afghanistan in Iraq the A10 W hog is another good example cheap plane which actually has ability to

165:25assist people in a tactical situation because they're more interested in their you know ridiculous flying [ __ ] so and Jimmy also points to a correct thing which is the Penning on did just fail it's [ __ ] audit you know we don't really talk about that like 100 billion dollar they have no idea what it is fa every year yeah they fail it every year it's a congressionally mandated audit every other government agency is able to get through their audit there you go and the Pentagon there go fails its audit for the fifth time there's no consequences to this either they they're getting more money than ever what are you spending it on it's not not even close it's not like they're off by a few pennies it's by like a few trillions or something it's like yeah and everyone's just like yeah where do you think that money is gone fine that's a great

166:10question there you go go representing $7 trillion in assets that's what we spent on the war on terror just so people know the entire gwatt was $7 trillion and that's what's missing I'm actually reading the sentence wrong the 7 trillion is the part they were able to give a clean bill of financial that was only 39% it was actually much more than 7 trillion oh my God so 40% is 7 trillion and we'll double it system so yeah we're talking about like almost $9 trillion that's more than we spent on the entire gwat do our entire economy is $15 trillion I want people to let let s but but we can't have Healthcare that' be too much that cost too much can't do Universal basic income we can't afford it yeah we can't afford that where's that money going though who knows I read once that they have one of the large HR systems in the entire world and I was like on what

166:53you know like what are they spending that on um a lot of it look I have no idea that's the point even with terms of Ukraine there was a great this is a great media episode CBS News did a whole documentary about how many of the weapons that we were sending to Ukraine were not making it to the front line which is [ __ ] right because if we're going to take all these weapons I would at least hope a Ukrainian Soldier is using it to protect his own life literally uh the day after that documentary went live he had to delete it CBS News retracted it and said no actually the situation has changed it's not true that report was out of context we're going to reissue it they said it was out of dat they said it was out of date and and they were talking about the vast majority of the arms we were sending to Ukraine weren't getting there

167:33also we have no audit there's no we have no way to independently verify that anything that we send to Ukraine is actually being used by Ukraine in the way that we wanted to how much money have we sent over there uh in terms of how much we've actually SP military orall if you want to look it up Jamie there's a it's called like Derek keagle or something like that there's a tracker um that does country by country and breaks it by economic financial and Military I believe we have spent or have sent approximately between 25 and 30 billion we have an extra 70 billion appropriated to Ukraine here's another crazy thing because we actually read these laws because we talk about our show so it it doesn't just work like the president of the United States shall have X amount of money to send tanks to Ukraine no we it's a slush fund Biden

168:17has a $70 billion slush fund completely to the discretion of the president of the United states he could wake up tomorrow if he wanted to and ship any weapon system in possession of the United States over to Ukraine we have no Congressional Authority it has already been appropriated we have no way as a population to push back against that Congress abdicated its responsibility in this in this case or he could not wake up tomorrow and then it all be in the hands of [ __ ] KLA Harris that's the only thing that scares me more can you imagine that lady with her finger on the button we're [ __ ] his 80-year-old heart is the only thing keeping us alive at least Biden stood up to the generals when it came to Afghanistan like at least he had that in him kamla scary scary [ __ ] you know she would start a war with Russia you think

169:02so she'd Bumble us into one she's mean I I think so I think in terms of her competence she cares about MSNBC she cares about group think she cares about the elites like really loving her Biden to his credit on some some areas of foreign policy is willing to Buck that a little it's very easy to be manipulated by these people people because you see what happened when Biden pulled out of Afghanistan and I acknowledge it was a mess it was a disaster it was ugly it was not good all of that but you see the way that you know they came out in force because they hated this decision they wanted us to continue to be there forever because this was like the endless gravy train for them and so you know that was the most effective most potent criticism against it was uniform across the board with the media and so that they did the same sort of stuff to

169:52OB they'll leak against you they'll really damage your approval rating they're really tied in with the media in terms of like you know they're leaking to their sources and they're will go on and make their own case Etc with no disclosure that they have Financial incentives involved so it's very very easy to be manipulated by the people who want to be in a place forever want to start a war or whatever it is absolutely yeah I mean I think Trump was subject to the same same forces um Obama was to the same force and I think part of why Biden in this limited instance was able to um buck that trend is maybe perhaps just because he's been around for so [ __ ] long Obama got totally rolled by the generals great book Bob Woodward Obama's Wars about the very first year of the Obama presidency he promised to run on the good War Afghanistan but he's not

170:40necessarily wedded to a surge the Obama's Wars book just details how Biden was the only guy in there being like Mr President what the [ __ ] are we doing in Afghanistan what should we be he's like why should we send 40,000 whatever more troops what are we going to do what's our endgame let's just have a counterterrorism mission and David Petraeus Mike Mullen and all the other Generals in the Obama White House were leaking against President Obama and actually actively undercutting him to the New York Times and to the press to create a Obama is soft on terrorism narrative specifically so they could do a surge in Afghanistan under Stanley mccrystal and look it's complicated but if we look back on that did it really buy us anything in the long war of History Afghanistan I know personally people who were blown up during the

171:24surge in Afghanistan and I also know how much it hurts them emotionally to watch ground that they fought and lost their brothers for lost limbs for get retaken by the Taliban several years earlier it's just like we're talking about with Ukraine what is the end game and the end game is not something that Washington really likes to talk about and even you're looking at the uh the pullout situation on Afghanistan it's like well why should we stay in Afghanistan if you were listening to the media it was like because so Afghan girls can go to school and look I feel very bad for Afghan girls I do not wish a situation where they're unable to go to school does that mean that we should have people there in perpetuity and spend $200 million per day and have several American soldiers get blown up by an IED I'm sorry I don't think so I think there's a lot of bad

172:06[ __ ] that's happening all across the world but they're never going to frame it that way and that's why man the media on this on war in particular they offer no Nuance Afghanistan was a real red pill moment for Chrystal I because and and look I'm not defending it I'm not saying it wasn't a [ __ ] show what's the alternative they were like oh we should have surrounded the city of Cabell I'm like so you want to send thousands of American soldiers to create a a perimeter around the city of kabell that suicide bomb that happened in the airport it would have been that times 100 in terms of we were occupying and surrounding in entire city there are valid criticisms of we should have held on to Bam we shouldn't have abandoned the military base or whatever uh uh in that and that's a tactical consideration I'll leave that to the people whose job

172:47it is but on a broader strategic level why should we have in Afghanistan and I haven't heard a particular good answer to that well you know how much they actually cared about the women and girls by the fact that now that those women and girls are like Starving in a mass famine they don't give a [ __ ] they don't cover it they don't cover the fact that they're like that we're partly connected to it because of the fact that we you know are continuing to hold their Central Bank Reserves and that's just now it's we're over that we've moved on now we're focused on humanitarian stories elsewhere and so it's just very selective and it's weaponized humanitarian is because Americans are good people like people don't want to see someone suffering and so they'll use the legitimate humanitarian concerns to try to achieve their aims and then once

173:32those aims are accomplished or not accomplished well they don't give a [ __ ] yeah this is not a Rosy picture you two are painting well uh it can be we went from the stock band which I thought was a Rosy one I wanted to talk to you about something that I remember you discussing that uh I I wanted to get clarity on what was that story that you discussed where there was a a company that was working with China and China had bought a large Ste in the company it was about chips and AI okay uh I I forget the exact name of the company Jamie but it it's basically called the Heist of the century if you Google like Heist of the century China semiconductors I think it was called AML it was a British Semiconductor Company any American or Western business is required to do business in China has to have a Chinese subsidiary so essentially what happened

174:21is the Chinese subsidiary I believe of AML was stealing the technology from within it and after they were reprimanded for something like this the CEO of the Chinese subsidiary just said nope I'm taking it he stole all of their IP created an independent business backed by the Chinese government and is now spinning up based on their IP semiconductors that were originally intellectual property of this British Semiconductor Company and the reason that this matters is that is just the tip of the ice for IP theft that is happening with respect to China it's one of the reasons why if you look at uh Chinese or American businessmen who do business over there they fully and readily admit the amount of Ip that has just been straight up stolen through their fake legal process of this Chinese subsidiary but really it's just a farming operation there's no such thing

175:09as Private Industry in China you know I talk about with Tik Tok all the time the CEO Jiang jiming he actually was forced to pull one of bite Dan's apps from the Chinese app store and apologize because it was not supporting quote socialist principles he was like I apologize to the this is the you know the CEO of Tik Tok today the owner of Tik Tok everything there is totally controlled by the government they're very Savvy and they're very smart and at this point they've actually even reached a point where in some cases they don't even need our IP in some areas they are far more Superior and advanced than we are one of the ones that scares the [ __ ] out of me is electric vehicle batteries so the entire EV battery supply chain is connected to China in some way you've talked about the Cobalt and all that and one of the things that sidarth brought

175:55up on your show was that it's the Chinese companies that are working with these congales gangs Chinese don't give a [ __ ] about Labor I mean it's not like we give a [ __ ] either so to be fair but anyway they're willing to come in and be like look we want the Cobalt give it to us this is actually part of the reason why Elon is in a precarious position a huge part of the Tesla EV battery supply chain is in China even here in the United States a lot of the new EV battery plants that are being built it's a Chinese sub it and a conglomerate that is behind that and look what did we come through with the whole pandemic if you're going to have critical supplies being manufactured and connected to China in some way they're always going to put their interest as any country should above your own you need to have

176:37some sort of resilience like if we get Taiwan is another example tsmc Taiwan semiconductor manufacturer they are building a plant here in Arizona they're building I think it's a hundred billion dollar plant um which is great I'm glad that they are but it takes a a decade to spin those things up they create 92% of the world's most advanced chips if we have a conflict in Taiwan I always talk about this on the show we are all turning this [ __ ] into the government so that they can create missiles and bombs like they will literally need to rip this semiconductors and chips out of our cell phones out of our computers cuz we're not going to have anything like 92% of the world's most advanced chips everything goes dark like everything is turned over into some sort of ration thing chips is the new gold it is one of the most precarious as an industry for

177:23the United States that we were remain in the chips Act was a great step in the right direction that the Biden Administration passed but tip of the iceberg man I mean that that's a whole other level I mean that is the like if we're looking for a more positive story less like gloom and doom um the Biden Administration has like dipped their toe in the water of industrial policy recognizing that I mean the best response to China the the problem for us is being so interdependent where you know the pandemic you come to realize like oh [ __ ] they make all the masks oh [ __ ] they make all the like yeah all this and so there was and then the other piece is we realized with these sprawling just in time Supply chains that they were incredibly fragile right that if you have a disruption your whole economy is like going to go to [ __ ]

178:12you're going to have inflation you're going to have all these backups at the ports and all these back all this stuff so they are have dipped their toe in the water of having industrial policy that makes us more resilient less reliant on these other countries including the inflation reduction act had a lot in it for um bringing that like green energy production and EV battery production to our Shores and has requirements about like where those batteries are built and where the sourcing comes from but it really is just starting to dip your toe in those Waters ultimately we're more than a decade out it's still so difficult I mean the sourcing on the EVS is such a nightmare and if you're trying to get you know conflict Creek Cobalt or lithium right now there's a huge battle right now in South America in Mexico in Chile and elsewhere where Chinese

178:58companies are trying to buy all of the lithium deposits which of course you need for a lithium ion battery uh and if we also I mean look this [ __ ] takes a long time I think that's just the one thing I want people to you don't just snap your fingers and build a semiconductor Fab you need water if a single human hair gets into the tsmc facility the whole thing shuts down this is the most sophisticated Manu facturing basically in the entire world and we're trying to rebuild it overnight it's very very very difficult and then even if you think about from an infrastructure point of view even so we have a explosion right now in electric vehicles I think that's great I think EES are really cool they're really fun to drive but if you don't have a Tesla like where do you Char you know if you're driving long range like where are you going to charge

179:40it it's not like we have a ton of Eevee uh Eevee battery St need the infrastructure we don't have the same gas station infrastructure that we all have that's we're decades behind on that so anyway I would love for the US government to intelligently invest in and a lot of this is ideological so another uh thing with the eye inflation reduction has a [ __ ] name you just called it like a clean energy bill which probably would have pulled better than a fake inflation whatever that was Joe Mansion one of the important things is ideology right which is not ideologically investing in technology because we want it to work but because it actually works nuclear is a huge part of this conversation we talked a ton about it on our show for a long time we had tax credits clean energy tax credits were only applicable to wind and solar

180:23wind and solar are fine um I think they have a lot of problems solar in particular is very filthy in order to manufacture a lot of it is manufactured in China and we actually rely on China you also need the batteries for it to be sustainable for when you know the wind is not blowing and the sun is not shining yes it's complicated whereas nuclear has like a 93% uh 93% rate at which it's always being able to run it's actually even more powerful than natural gas very reliable unfortunately you know uh we haven't built a new nuclear power plant in the United States since 1974 um which is insane right and you know luckily California decided not to totally lose its mind and close the Diablo nuclear power plant um here in Texas I think only 133% or whatever of our uh power comes from nuclear we get more power from coal I believe here in Texas than

181:10we do from nuclear in the year 2023 it doesn't make any sense the point is is that even if we wanted to though and this is the fair criticism it takes a long time but I with all of these things no time like the present like we got to start now the current system is not working you know what Texas uh a lot of the power just went out here in Austin one of the reasons why from what I've been able to read so far it's actually not the Grid it's because power lines are constructed above ground and people are like okay well why do we do that it's cheap it's a lot more expensive to have to bury these things underground so it's a tradeoff and I think that's fair you know it's a Once In A threee or so event but even if we look at the previous grid failure here inex it was failure to weatherize the natural gas grid so a lot of this stuff is

181:55preemptive investment to make sure that old people don't die in the middle of a freeze or you know that horrible situation like in Buffalo right where people were you know losing power and freezing to death in their cars it's like that is why we need to have more Forward Thinking as a country and actually get some agreement about these things and frankly we're going have to throw a shitload of money at it like it costs a lot of money but the idea that people say oh but that's you know uh that's it's like government subsidy listen we subsidize the [ __ ] out of the oil industry like you really think we don't subsidize oil of course we do it's critical energy infrastructure there's so much regulation around it you know you can't even get a new nuclear power plant approved if you were to apply to I think it's FK it's like the federal

182:35nuclear Regulatory Commission so we need reform on all of these things just to make life better in America and unfortunately a lot of it is just corrupted so that it's not really possible and a lot of it is ideological too we have to be honest about that we have a lot of shortterm a lot of short-term thinking a lot of profit driven thinking you know and then that bleeds over into government officials as well because of the corporate campaign contributions and so yeah um they're they don't care really what happens 10 years from now or whether it's good for the US or for China or anyone else they care about is it good for their bottom line it's crazy because all the things that we discussed Healthcare um energy all the issues that we have and that's where it gets really crazy when you look at the money that we're putting into other

183:23things like Ukraine oh yeah like if we had the resources to do to do what we're doing right now currently that means we had the resources to attack all these problems domestically right yeah that's right but we just don't have consensus around it with Ukraine everybody they snap their fingers they basically 99% of what they want nobody in Congress has the balls to actually vote against it I believe it was a unanimous vote I think in the sen or semi unanimous whatever here's the question about that why are the Republicans opposed to sending more arms to Ukraine are are they why aren't they more opposed why are they opposed cuz some Republicans are are well it's you can count them on one hand I mean they might say it but they all vote for it right I mean how many of them actually voted against the new Jamie you might be able to look it up what the

184:04actual vote count was on the extra 50 billion to Ukraine I'm not 100 or at least the original 50 billion it was almost unanimous in terms of what was sent over there and look I think a lot of them what they're saying is a more financial perspective of what you're talking about they're like hey why should we spend $50 billion to Ukraine if we have all these problems here I mean I don't necessarily agree 100% with that failing yeah 11 Senators who voted against the Ukraine Aid bill but that means that 86 of the entire chamber did end up voting for it uh and if I were to look at it I'd be willing to bet a lot of them are fisal Republicans so Josh Holly Mike Brown uh yeah boozman crepo Haggerty Lee Lumis Marshall Tommy too these are mostly more libertarian types so they're going to be more concerned on the spending side but you know the

184:48critique that we've all talked about here on the show today you will not hear a single word of this out in the mainstream I have not seen one intelligent discussion in any format of mainstream media on Ukraine raising any of the valid points that we just did because the lobby of and the denunciation of oh you're pro- Russia oh you're spouting you Putin talking points and all that is vicious and a lot of these people just succumb to that unfortunately I really I really don't know how to get around it but you know if I can have anything take away is what you said is look if people were willing to unanimously relatively agree to send 100 billion to Ukraine and we have all these problems that we just talked about that shows you what the priority is I always look at what's the bipartisan consensus in Washington that's the only

185:37[ __ ] that actually gets done yeah well perfect example so we passed during the pandemic this um expanded child tax credit phenomenally successful program lifted like half of all kids that were in poverty out of poverty um you know they did research on the way that parents were spending this they were spending it on their kids they were spending it on like you know enrichment for their it was like unanimously great policy that worked really well and um Democrats Republicans decided they were against it and Democrats just like let it expire without a peep and so again it's like you know the the hard thing is so many people's political approach is so focused on like whatever the cultural outrage of the moment is that things like that don't even get surfaced they don't get debated they don't get discussed and then this program which

186:34was one of the most successful programs we've done in a long time just dies oh that reminds me I know you've been talking about Ubi and concerns about it um so we actually been doing a lot of Deep dive into this and we looked at a couple of new studies there's a new one actually just came out that a big part of the quote labor shortage is actually men who were working much longer hours during the pandemic cutting back on their hours so it's not and actually uh it's Matthew glacius tweeted this study if you want to see it Jamie it's from the National Bureau of economic research so it's a couple of things it's a cut back in the amount of hours that people are willing to work also because uh 2020 with the initial reopening there was more labor ability to bargain many people were not willing to go back to work work at the same wages uh one of

187:20the concerns around unemployment I know that you would rais and others was oh well people are getting all this unemployment they're not going back to work um and there were certainly some cases of that true but we had a interesting natural experiment where they actually ended unemployment benefits back in 2021 it had little to no change on the overall employment rate so even when you took away the unemployment benefits all of the anecdotal stories of like I can't get somebody in because they're getting unemployment they didn't want to work actually when they stopped getting unemployment a lot of them didn't go back to work um and it wasn't just because they had money saved up because we know right now we have some of the highest credit card debt in modern American history which is never a good sign uh in fact many bank accounts are

188:02below pre-pandemic levels and so there's actually just been a fundamental reset in the way a cultural reset in the way that a lot of people approach work a lot of it is women one of the fascinating things that happened is we had for the first time in modern American history we had an increase actually in the amount of babies that were born the pandemic baby bump that happened from 2020 and 2021 that's we've almost never had that happen before a just the people were bored and they had more time on and they were able to plan pregnancy be at home not have to worry about one week or whatever of maternity leave so we're living in a really interesting moment in the way that people have evaluated their relationship with work there's a real reorientation going on especially for like white collar workers who were very W wrapped up in their like you know

188:49whatever their work dramas were and their whole life was centered around work and climbing that ladder and whatever and so when they were forced to go remote and all of that was Stripped Away was like why am I why is this the only part of my life that I'm focusing on this thing that I don't even really like when I have like a family I have a community I have other things that are important to me and I don't think that that I I think that is a dramatic mindset shift that is probably not going away a cultural mindset shft and you see all these people like moving to different areas valuing different things in terms of their quity of life and so yeah as we look at the labor force partic participation rate a lot of the decline was actually people not leaving their jobs not want not that they didn't want to work but just working fewer

189:38hours and being unwilling to like just dedicate their entire Waking Life to their job yeah well that's probably a good thing right I I think it's a good thing yeah the re-evaluation process process is always good cuz there's going to be a bunch of people that just course correct yeah I mean I think it's listen the three of us we get to do things that we really love right we really we're passionate we feel like it makes a difference like we you know eat sleep drink it and that's rare that's really rare most people are you know they're like punching the clock they're doing their thing to be able to get a check to be able to support their families and so you know there's been this sort of like I don't know IDE ology sold around careerism to especially like college educated white collar workers that like this is the thing that's supposed to be

190:27who you are in your whole life and I think taking a step back from that and being more intentional about like well is that actually what I want my whole life to be about and maybe there are other things that are outside of the workplace that are more meaningful to me that provide me you know more happiness or more joy or more fulfillment in my life I 100% think that that's a positive thing that's our bright note we should end on that you do I like it that's a that's a positive I think it's great yeah I think it's a positive direction absolutely listen I appreciate you guys very much I love your show I'm so glad you're out there I'm so glad you're independent you're you're free so are we no listen it's because of you guys 100% uh but uh thank you very much thanks for being here thank you uh tell everybody how they can consume your show uh

191:12docomo on YouTube breaking points on Spotify Apple wherever you get your podcast all all right thank you guys appreciate it bye everybody