Boyan Slat

00:01two What's up, fella? How are you? Good to see you again, man. Likewise. I've been reading that you are having some great success with your machine finally. It's everything's up and running. Last time we talked, you had yet to implement it actually out in the wild and now you explain to us what happened. You had some bumps in the beginning, right? Yes. Yeah, so it's been quite a quite a few years. Finally something's happening. Um so we we launched our first ocean system from San Francisco in September of last year. And we we took it out and roughly two months later we we figured that first of all, it wasn't catching plastic. So what we saw was that the system was moving at roughly the same speed as the plastic. So maybe just just take one step back the idea and how how it works. So So of course we have this this great Pacific garbage patch between here and Hawaii,

00:57twice the size of Texas, 100 million kilos of plastic. Doesn't go away by itself. And the idea was to to have this artificial coastline that is driven by the forces of the ocean. We we put it in there and the plastic naturally accumulates against it and kind of stays in there so we can then periodically get it out because the the the the the big challenge is that although there's a lot of plastic, it's it's spread out over this this vast area. So we first have to concentrate it before we can take it out because if you were to simply troll the ocean for plastic with boats and nets, it would just take um you know, for forever really. So So the idea was to to to have those artificial coastlines. We deployed the first one and then what we saw was that somehow the system was moving at the same speed as the plastic. So you can imagine if if you know, if this is like a your your Pac-Man and

01:47this is your your you know, your your catch and it's moving at the same speed, you know, it's not going in and sometimes it did go in but it went out again. We got a video of it what it was doing. great. Yeah, so So this is the basic idea um but it wasn't doing that. So So and then you know, we thought okay that's that's all right. We'll learn from it. We'll try and adjust the systems and then literally exactly a year ago uh the system broke into two and uh so it was a structural failure forcing us to tow the whole thing back to land and um go back to the drawing board. So So we didn't have the the best start of this year. How much time has been lost or how much time has been spent I should say um in the beginning phase the initial Yeah. version that you launched versus where you're at now? So we've been going on at this for since 2013. So after Yeah, so basically after 5 years

02:44launching it and seeing it break into two that was wasn't the the the best start of the year I could could have imagined um but then yeah, we went to the drawing board um and you know, the team really took it well and yeah, we took those lessons into account, adjusted the design and relaunched really just a few months later so in June. And this time we made the system a bit a bit more modular so we could try different things to try and uh adjust the speed, make it go faster, make it go slower. And then what we figured was well the system isn't going fast enough. What if we actually turn the problem into a solution? What if we turn it around and actually slow it down so that it goes slower than the plastic. And then what we figured um that that that actually works and uh in October we announced that we're actually catching plastic and really just last week the

03:32first two shipping containers full of full of plastic were were landed in port. Wow, so it's really recently up and running the way you expected. Now how long does it take to accumulate two shipping containers full? Uh so that was roughly month month and a half. And how big are these shipping containers? Uh 20 ft so 42 of these rooms. So So, only thing that's really stopping it from getting more is like the actual size of the net itself. Yes. So, so that's the next step. So, now that we kind of went from zero to one, we have the basic principle of catching plastic confirmed. We now have to make it bigger before we can build a whole fleet of them because, you know, we we reckon we need maybe 50 or 100 of them to really clean up half the patch in 5 years. That's that's the objective. Half the whole patch in 5 years? That's the real objective? That's our winning Wow, is that really

04:20possible? If you have enough systems, yeah. That's incredible. Now, where are you at in terms of like trying to get these systems made and implemented? Um so, so the So, now we just finished this this first step with the system number one, that's how we called it. And the next step is to develop what we call system two, which is indeed going to be a bigger version and the idea is to minimize the amount of vessel use that you need for it. So, that comes because boats are really expensive. Um the the boat that we have costs roughly 15,000 euros per day to keep running. Wow. Just Just one boat. So, boat you don't want boats to, you know, Would you anticipate that it ever gets to a point where the amount of money that you can generate from the actual resource of physical plastic can actually pay for the the whole experiment? I mean, I hope so. That's what we want to trial next year

05:17with by making products from the catch that we that we make. And the material itself hardly has any value. It's It's really the the story to it. make straws so people don't feel guilty. Like, "Oh, it's a recycled straw." Yeah. Yeah, then throw them in the ocean again. Now, what are Yeah, that's a terrible idea. But, what what a very sustainable business model. Just Yeah, just keep going. Yeah, what is the What are the products that you're thinking about? Uh we we have a We have a few ideas. We So, it's still kind of under development. So, I think in September we should be ready to launch the first one. But, I think it's going to be things that that are durable, that don't end up in waste that you actually that will retain their value. So, it can last for a very very long time. And that you actually want and ideally carry around so you can talk about with

06:08other people and Um actually now so just last week we with that first plastic on shore we said, "Okay, now we welcome our supporters to actually make um well, I shouldn't call it a reservation, but kind of make a make a down payment um so that um you can be first in line. So, if people go to our website, they can actually put in the 50 bucks and get the right for uh the first ever products made from the Great Pacific Garbage Patch." So, you're just trying to figure out what products will have the most sustainability, what what products people keep for the longest. Yeah, and things that people want, right? You don't want some kind of gimmick that's just going to be this paperweight. Flip flip flops seem like an easy one, right? Yeah. Don't they? I mean, people love to buy flip flops. If they bought flip flops, especially people that are like sort of like outdoorsy type folks, sure,

06:58appreciate the beach. I maybe have to write these things down. Um Flip flops. That's pretty easy one. Any other ideas? Um what else, Jamie? What else would be a good one? Belts. People like belts. All shoes. Any flip flop all shoes. Yeah. Shoes like definitely some Yeezys. Some dope recycled Yeah, some recycled sneakers. Like what is foam? Like the foam that they make running shoes out of. That's a very specific type of uh Yeah. That's not actual plastic, right? It's probably made out of something else. It's a type of plastic. We we might be able to to foam this material as well. I think we've done tests with that. Oh, really? Turn it into foam? Yes. Oh, through some sort of a process? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you could make athletic shoes. That'd be easy, right? People but they would you'd have to a way to make to like incentivize people to recycle them. It would be so ironic for those

07:47things to wind up back in the ocean. You know, there's got to be a way to do that. Just tell you know, like have like if you have your own company like drop-off points in cities where when they're done with their stuff if it's broken down or it's old if you use it you could throw it into this bin and you will ensure that it gets converted back into raw materials and utilized again. Right, yeah. The circular economy. Yeah, that'd be a great move. If you and people would do that if they if you made it easy for them. You know, it's sort of like recycling bins. If they you make it easy for them they'll they'll throw their bottle in there, you know. So, um you have these two cargo ships or these two cargo containers uh filled with this plastic stuff. Um what do you do with it now? Yeah, so so that's going to Europe. Unfortunately, there isn't really any useful recycling infrastructure in the

08:38US. So, um so we set up this this um infrastructure in in in Europe to be able to first sort it and then shred it and then recycle it and then um make those first products out of them. So, hopefully um and hopefully with that then, you know, generate the the cash needed to to continue uh running the cleanup. But of course now it's still small scale. Right. Eventually, we should have those number of shipping containers every you know, every day probably. So, do you have like a group of people that's trying to come up with ideas of what to make out of the plastic? Yeah, so we have a little team in inside The Ocean Cleanup working on that and um yeah, so they I I think they say that by September they should be ready to to launch the first product. So. That's great, man. That's the the whole idea behind this is beautiful. Do you have a river system too as well, right?

09:28Yes, so so that's the other thing, right? So, on one hand we need to we need to clean up what's what's already in the ocean doesn't go away by itself and basically the the only way to to deal with that is to just go out there and and clean it up. Um But of course then there's this this other side of the equation which is there's still huge huge amounts of plastic flowing into the ocean every day. Mostly from countries in Central America South Southeast Asia where people are kind of this the stage of development or countries are at a stage of development where where the people are wealthy enough to consume a lot of things that are wrapped in plastic yet there isn't any waste infrastructure yet to take care of it. So you literally see people on on scooters just uh drive on the to a bridge to dump their municipal waste into the river because that's simply the easiest way to

10:25get rid of it. To your point, what's easiest people will do. And uh so it's not really that people you know don't care there or that they um are less civilized or something but it's really a combination. There's a lot of people and there is no infrastructure that that they can make use of. So so then back in 2015 we were like, okay, maybe at some point in time this this ocean thing will will work out. Who knows? But then we're stuck with this problem that there's still so much plastic flowing in that we would just have to keep going forever and and that would just be you know not not very motivating and we want to be this project with a beginning and an end. So So we're like, okay, so where's the plastic coming from? And then we figured, you know, probably rivers. Rivers are like these these arteries that carry the trash from from land to sea because when it rains plastic washes

11:17from street to creek to river to ocean and um but then we we found out that there is a hundred thousand rivers in the world. So that's kind of a big amount if you want to do something about it. So um so we started doing measurements in rivers, and then what we found was that just 1% of rivers are responsible for 80% of the of the pollution. So, really just a very tiny amount of rivers, if you were to to tackle those, could really address the the majority of of the plastic going into the ocean. And it's it's mostly like these relatively small rivers in um, in in capital cities like Manila, like Jakarta, like Kuala Lumpur. We have very high density of people uh, near the coast. That's where most of the leakage, most of the emissions occurs. So, so since 2015, we uh, we've been kind of as a secret side project, been working on um, seeing what can we actually

12:15develop something to to intercept the plastic in in those rivers. And uh, we just launched it month ago. We call it the Interceptor. And it's this uh, yeah, like it is a scalable um, system that that's almost like plug and play. So, you bring it to a river and um, you install it and it and it just works. It's fully autonomous, solar powered. So, this is all real the real plastic that's being pulled out of this river. Yes, yes. From your machine. Yes, yes. This was the This was the prototype. Um, so Dude, that's amazing. This was in uh, Jakarta. For people that are just listening, we're looking at this thing pull enormous amounts of plastic out of this river, and it's also doing so in in there they're stacking it into these bags. It is it's a large physical quantity of stuff. Oh, yeah. And then maybe you can actually pull up the video of Interceptor 2 in in Malaysia. So, we

13:06already have two of them in um, in real life as we speak. How does it avoid doing anything with fish? How do you avoid um, catch accidentally Oh my god, is that real? Yes, so this is this is the Klang River in Kuala Lumpur, and it's Oh, my god. According to our model, it's like the fifth most polluting river in the world. So, 1% of all plastic uh, going into the world's oceans is coming from that one river. This is unbelievable how polluted this is. This is crazy. It's 10 million kilos per year, roughly. So. Just Just looking at it, looks like a wasteland. It's so sad. Yeah. So, um so then we um So So, we now have four interceptors. Two of them have already been deployed. So, here here's the one going to um to the to the Klang River. And kind of wanted to make it look like a like a spaceship. Um just so people would like it. And so, it has this barrier that that concentrates the

14:02plastic to the mouth of the interceptor where you have a conveyor belt that then scoops it out of the water. Uh again, fully solar and battery powered. And then deposits it onto this moving shuttle um conveyor, which then distributes it across these uh big dumpsters. Can hold roughly 50 cubic meters of trash. And um yeah, it it just works by itself. So, it's um that's what it does. How much this That's an insane amount of garbage that you're pulling out of there. Well, you When you look at it visit visually, folks, you can watch the video. What is the name of this video, Jamie, so people can find it? Rivers Interceptor 002 Cleaning in Malaysia is the title of the YouTube video. It's crazy. Now, and you're not catching any fish in this? Oh, yeah. So, uh so because this this barrier is non-permeable, the current just flows underneath it. Um basically, the the sealife can just pass

14:56it. Actually, at one point we had this giant lizard, which is probably 2 m. We should probably post that photo. It was actually kind of climbing onto the barrier, and then it just swam around it. So, um 2 m, really? Yeah, 1 1/2 m. It was What kind of lizard is that? Uh I don't I don't know the name, but it it was Some kind of monitor or something? Monitor, that's you're right. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have a Where is Did you see if an image of that? No? I'll post that next week. Oh, you haven't posted it before? Oh, okay. He was looking for it. Yeah, I thought you were saying it was out there. Um so, it's safe for fish. Um what about the the stuff that doesn't float on the very surface? Right. So, the the system goes down 1 m. What we measured is that really almost all the plastic is in that top layer. So, sure, you know, won't be 100% efficient, but I think it's it's

15:50really about having this pragmatic thing that catches most of it. And and most importantly leaves wildlife alone cuz everything else can just swim underneath that. Exactly. Yeah, that's that's great. Um and so, this plan that you had when, you know, it's been 6 years running. Uh how much of your daily time is devoted to this? Oh, I don't think there's much much free time at all. So, yeah, especially past year, I've I've not had a single free day. Uh so, Not a single? Yeah, just 9:00 a.m. to usually, you know, 9:00 p.m. in the office. Just It's been uh busy, but I think it was uh it was worth it now looking where we were at the beginning of the year to where we are now. Well, now that you've actually pulled these cargo containers filled with plastic out of the ocean, that must give you an extreme feeling of satisfaction, right? That you've you've actually made it work. Like you were

16:51it's moving now. So, I was I was kind of hoping for that feeling, but then when you get to that point, you're like, "Okay." But there's still you can really only see the amount of work that's still ahead of you. So, so it's actually really hard to yeah, enjoy successes in in a way. I should probably get better at that. It's hard Well, particularly what you're doing, you have a monumental task in front of you. And what you're doing is rightly being applauded by so many people, but I don't know how many people are actually helping you. You you have a crazy thing that you're doing. You're trying to pull the plastic out of the ocean. When people find out about the Great Pacific Garbage Patch, they they they get panicky. Like, what? How long has this been going on? How do I How do I not know about this? Cuz so few people I mean, I would think like maybe 40% of

17:38the population understands that there's a gigantic patch of garbage in the middle of the ocean. And it was discovered 20 years ago. Exactly 20 years ago. And still That's crazy. Still it's there. It's just been growing. So, 1998, no one had a god damn clue. Nope. And then they went, "Wait, hey. What? What's going on out here? What is all this garbage?" And it keeps getting bigger and bigger, right? Yeah. It's actually quite a good story. This is the sailor called Charles Moore who was participating in the sail race between Hawaii and California. And while others would go further north, he thought, "Well, let's try and cut off this this piece." And then he was looking at the water and he just just saw all that all that trash. And then he went back. He was so shocked about it. And then he decided to to take some measurements, publish the results, and that kind of popularized

18:27that whole concept of the Great Pacific Garbage Patch. It's It's a weird thing to see when you see drones flying over it and you see the footage of it. And And it's also it's it's a lot A lot of it is a lot smaller than people think of it cuz it's broken down by the ocean, right? Yeah, so that's that's what happens over time is that this these larger objects have basically entered the the ocean due to the working of the waves as well as the sun breaks down to these smaller smaller pieces. Which is actually not really a good thing because these smaller pieces are then easier to ingest for for fish and other wildlife. So, so the smaller it gets in a way that the more harmful it gets as well. And uh Fortunately, what we see is that still 92% of the plastic is still non-micro plastic, so big stuff. But of course, if we don't clean it up over the next few decades, all of that big stuff

19:20will also become micro plastics and then we're in a much worse state. Is the cleanup of micro those micro plastics possible or is it just something that needs to be sort of rethought out? Well, so that was actually one of the positive surprises that we that we had this year is that the the cleanup system in in the patch wasn't just catching plastic, not just big stuff. It was also catching most of the micro plastics. So, down to 1 mm. clogged up with all the other stuff, is that what it is? Uh we're not exactly sure how it was able to do that, but we just saw huge amounts of those those micro plastics in in the system. It's probably has to do something with the uh radiation of the waves. So, you have the that big pipe that keeps the system together. And because waves are kind of crashing against it, it reflects waves as well and almost like a lens, it was

20:11concentrating those micro plastics into one patch in the middle of the system, which Ah. uh so it was kind of just holding on into into the system. So, that was So, that's that was really um we weren't expecting to collect micro plastics, but there we were. That's pretty cool. Um so, now where are you at in terms of trying to expand it to a point where you could you know, really get this goal of half of the plastic of the ocean in 5 years. Yeah. So, so it it would probably be easier if we had one goal, but we now set two goals for ourselves. One is the 50% in 5 year for the for the patch, but the other one is that we want to have interceptors um into the 1,000 most polluting rivers, the ones that do the 80%. in um in the next 5 years. So, we'll be we'll be pretty busy. Really really busy. Yes, so not busy enough. Yeah. How many people are working for your in your

21:08organization? Now about a hundred and I think really team has been as now better than it's ever been. So fortunately there's there's definitely a lot of help but but we're still recruiting quite I think another 20 30 people coming off here. So So definitely there is a lot of work to do and What has this ride been like for for you from being this like really young guy when you figured this out? Like how old were you when you came up with the idea? Um the first idea is when I was 16 but really founded the organization when I was 18. Yeah. So that's really young. 18 to where you are now just being constantly involved in this process. What has that been like for you? Uh educational I would say. Um So really when I started and when I look back at when I started I I really didn't have a bloody clue what I was doing and I suppose that was a good thing because

22:03if I would have known how complicated and how big it would have to become in order to actually take some plastic out of the ocean. I probably wouldn't have started it. It was just too big and I remember doing the giving my first presentation back in 2012 and somebody approached me and they said, "Okay, it's a great idea. It's going to cost like tens of millions of dollars. You're going to need a team of maybe a hundred people to to to get this to a point that it could actually work." And I thought this guy was crazy. Like no way you can So that's why I started a two million dollar crowdfunding campaign to to get it started and um Yeah, it was closer to the truth than I could have ever imagined. When you when you think about the amount of time that you're investing in this, do you how do you see yourself ever getting off this ride? Does this what you want to do for the rest of your life?

23:00No, so I I do I simply want to solve problems and I think this is kind of a good starter problem. It's I think it's very feasible to actually solve it. It's by the way hilarious that you're talking about the Great Pacific Garbage Patch as a starter problem. Oh, well. What kind of ambition do you have, dude? That's one of the most perplexing problems with garbage and waste today. Yeah, but I do think it's it's solvable and it's it's it is, too, according to you and what you're saying, but to call it a starter problem is hilarious. Well, yeah, and I mean, I think the specific the exciting thing for me is that it's I I picked this problem as as the first one because I believe it would not just be solvable, but it's solvable by a relatively small group of passionate people and uh Yeah, so of course, what I hope is that basically we can kind of create this

24:01blueprint of how you solve a problem and how you um how you make civilization a bit more sustainable so that hopefully with that blueprint we can um not only solve more other problems in the future, but also inspire others to to do the same thing. Well, that that's a beautiful sentiment. And do you have any other things that you want to try to solve once you've sort of uh stepped away from this? Mhm. Yeah, so I I really I there's definitely not going to be a shortage of ideas. Um so I keep this little booklet that it's kind of overflowing, but what what I realized is to yeah, to be successful with the cleanup, I I really need razor sharp focus and I can only do one thing at the same time and uh like ideas are like viruses and when they enter your mind, it kind of expands and you know, evolves and it's really quite dangerous actually to have new ideas. There was

25:04I forget who said that, but um somebody who recently I heard saying, "The the best thing you can do is having one great idea and then never having any other ideas in the rest of your life." So, just because, you know, to be your resources. Right. To to achieve something, you need full focus. Um I think it was Stewart Brand, by the way. It's a good thing to say. It's It's accurate. What do What do you think though about what I was going to get at was Do you uh ever conceive of a possibility of coming up with something that removes carbon from the atmosphere? That's a giant issue with us, right? Right. Um Carbon emissions. So, definitely I I believe negative emissions, what I think you you refer to them, uh will be required to make the the goals to kind of keep the, you know, warming in in in check. Um It's However, it's a much more difficult problem because, if you

26:00think of the ocean, it's it's basically a two-dimensional problem. It's a plastic on the surface, and fortunately, it's not even the whole ocean. It's it's kind of concentrating in these accumulation zones. So, the garbage patch, although it's twice the size of Texas, it's still you know, 1.6 million square kilometers, while the ocean is something like 300 million square kilometers to my head. So, it's really just maybe less than a percent of the ocean which needs to be cleaned. And it's a Again, it's a two-dimensional problem. While the atmosphere is is three-dimensional. So, it's just this this one-dimensional increase is just yeah, it's just a huge huge challenge. So, I I do think it needs to be tackled, and it's definitely an exciting problem to think about. Um I I I do think that's definitely that's not a good startup problem to to work on. No.

26:54Um wasn't there something Jamie that we had talked about where they had figured out a way to make these building-sized essentially vacuum cleaners that were going to put in the center of uh certain cities? I believe it was in Asia. Maybe perhaps China. They'd come up with this and and they I don't know if they implemented it yet, but the idea was to have these enormous things in place that look like a skyscraper. And really it was just a huge vacuum cleaner for carbon. Sure. I know that of a few companies that work on it. They've carbon engineering is one. There's also um there's also one out of Switzerland. Forgot the name. But uh so so definitely good smart people are are working on that problem. Um I not sure where they are in terms of you know the economics and scalability. right here? When he mentions carbon engineering is this one. Okay, so that looks like

27:41fit. giant fans like a huge building filled with fans. We believe humanity can solve climate change. Yikes. Imagine like we have filters for air the same way we have filters for water. Direct air capture technology. Carbon engineering. Um more than 10 years in the making that can capture carbon dioxide directly from the atmosphere. And look at that machine. Try to get a close-up on what that thing looks like. It looks like giant washing machines. Right? Like it's washing the air. Doesn't it? Look like a giant washing machine. Wow. I mean it seems like it's feasible. It doesn't seem like it's something that's impossible. Yeah. It's It's I think just it's the it's the scalability that that's the main challenge. I mean it's also funding. Like if you drive over uh or fly over Manhattan rather and see the density of the structures and how many buildings are in there. You

28:31know that people can make some pretty insane Right. Why couldn't they make some giant insane vacuum cleaner for the air that's you know as big as a city block? Of course a lot of it comes down to economics. Our our system is not very good at valuing things that are long-term or directly benefit ourselves. So So definitely People tax it. They'll find They'll find a way to make it profitable. Is this another one? Rendering of what one would look like to capture 1 million tons of CO2 per year. Woah. Sounds like Looks like it'd be noisy. Oh, yeah. Probably annoying as Look at those fans. It's so weird though. Like the whole array of fans. Like Okay. That seems like a way to do it. Looks like somebody built a giant computer and tried to cool it or something. And then they'll have all this carbon. What the do they do with that? Burn it? What do they do? I don't know. What do

29:22you You make out of it? What do you do? Make diamonds? Imagine that. Diamonds are a girl's best friend. You make it out of the carbon that you pull out of the air. Be a good business model. That would be a great business model. This would be like a green diamond, right? A diamond that's actually made and it's all pressured by solar power. They use solar power to smash it. Carbon fiber, too. Yeah. Is carbon the same carbon fiber? I don't know. Is it the same Yeah, why not, right? It must be carbon, right? So carbon is how they make di- It's coal, right? Which is essentially carbon, right? Do they make diamonds from carbon or they make diamonds just from coal? What is coal? Coal's like burnt right? There's many many forms in which carbon exists. Yeah. So different crystal structures. They are doing that now where they are making um commercially made diamonds. Diamonds are made of carbon.

30:11So they form as carbon atoms under a high temperature and and pressure they bond together to start growing crystals. That's why a diamond is such a hard material because you have each carbon atom participating in four of these very strong covalent bonds that form between carbon atoms. I've never heard that read that word out loud. Covalent. Have you ever heard that word out loud? Co- covalent, I believe. Is that how you say it? I've never even seen that word. Uh so these bonds that form between carbon atoms. So that I know they're doing it now. They're They're They're making diamonds with certain machines. High pressure, high heat. Yeah. If they did That would be That would be hilarious. That would be a good thing, too, because they would put a dent in the actual diamond market, which is this weird lockdown strange market. Cuz diamonds aren't nearly as valuable as

30:58they're set out to be. De Beers takes these diamonds and they stockpile them, and they only release a certain amount of them, and they keep the price very high. Huh. But it's all engineered. Right. Like the profit Like diamonds used to be far more rare than they are now. But with the innovation in mining technology and their ability to get to diamonds they couldn't get to before, they have a lot of diamonds. Like it's not as valuable as it appears when you go to buy one. Okay. Didn't know that. So we can make carbon diamonds, bro. And actually plastic again is just carbon chains. We can even make diamonds out of ocean plastic. Whoa. That would be the ultimate green diamond. Imagine like if you're like a really ecologically minded rapper, you wear all All your ice could come from the ocean. Let everybody know. From trash to treasure. Yes. They Dude, that's the

31:49That's That's the signature of the company. In quotes, "From trash to treasure." You should tell me to write these things down. Buoyant diamonds. How about that? I like it. Yeah. Dude, you could be the first guy to do this. Here we go. A plastic business, an ocean diamond. Whoa. Earth is crushing the ocean into salty diamonds. That's a dope looking diamond, too. What is that? It's salt, I guess. Uh recreated salty diamond deposits in a high-pressure, high-temperature experiment suggesting that many of Earth's diamonds form when the mantle crushes ancient seabed minerals. Mhm. Oh, isn't science and the Earth cool? I I if you do get to do this Here's another problem, okay? Here's a is a big one for the ocean. We're depleting it of seafood, of life. I mean, we you know, I had um How do you say his name again? Sojoes, right? Louie Sojoes, who directed The Cove on. We were talking

32:52about the depleting depleting of the wildlife in the in the ocean. And when you start looking at it on a grand scale, like how much fish they're pulling out of the oceans. It's very sobering, you know? Sure. Maybe you can come up with a way to replenish the fish in the ocean, so we can continue eating sushi. What do you think? So So maybe just zoom out a bit and let us know what is So because of course plastic pollution, climate change, overfishing, I think it's all part of one big problem to make civilization sustainable and um the the way I look at it is that of course over the past 200 years, humanity has made tremendous progress. So of course, since agriculture revolution 10,000 years ago um humanity has been kind of stagnant, no progress or just very very slow progress. Number of people um lifespan, it was all kind of flat, nothing really happened. And then

33:53since the the dawn of the industrial revolution and when we learned how to utilize science and and our knowledge, collective knowledge to to turn that into progress. Um basically every possible metric for humanity has improved tremendously. If you think of wealth, health, violence, education uh rights, all these things. I know you had Steven Pinker on, he's he's much more knowledgeable on that topic than than I am. Um yet so so truly at this point in time, it has never been a better time to be alive for humans than than today. Not saying that it can't get better, but we have made tremendous progress by one hand imagining things that don't exist yet, so inventing technologies and also inventing institutions. And on the other hand, our human ability to to collaborate effectively in large numbers, which includes the corporation, which is a very effective way for for people to to

34:59work together. Now, all that progress has always has also had its negative side effects, which are most pronounced, of course, in the area of the environment, where we we put things into environment that that shouldn't belong there, and we take too much out of it than nature can replenish, which includes, you know, the fish. And on the other hand, you have the plastic going into the environment, etc. So, so then the question is, well, how do we solve that? And of course, one hand is to say, okay, this kind of the the yeah, maybe the Luddite is maybe a bit of a negative way to to phrase it, but the sort of reactionary approach of saying, okay, we should consume less. Corporations are bad, technology is bad, we should all get rid of all those things. And I think, you know, the environment the modern environmental movement, which is really kind of this romantic movement,

35:54has this image of back in the day, everything was great, and we lived in harmony with nature. So, let's get rid of all this modernity and try and return to that pure original state. What I, however, believe is that, first of all, that's I don't think it's a very realistic thing. People want to keep their iPhones and their cars, and you know, people want to move forward. And at the same time, I don't think it's really the most effective way to to solve these problems, because, you know, it would be like fighting a a leopard tank with with bow and arrow. Uh you know, technology is nothing more than an an an enabler of human capabilities. It enhances our power. So, why not use that power to also try and solve these these these these problems as well. So, rather than try and reject business, reject technology, I truly believe that we should embrace those those forces that

36:47make us human and and has created this amazing world to also try and solve these these negative side effects as well. And that's why I believe you know, the overconsumption overconsumption of fish is not going to end by people all becoming vegan, but rather through um you know, fake meats. Uh I think that the uh transport emissions are not going to be solved by people not flying anymore or not going anywhere anymore. Realistically, people are going to fly more. So, we better invent technologies that allow people to do that without harming the environment. And um you know, the same thing I think it would be the case for for for for plastic and and really other energy uses as well. No, I think that's a very wise way of looking at it and it's a it's a hopeful way of looking at it. And it's funny that today you kind of have even though you're you're you're dealing with

37:43statistics and factual information like the fact that it is a safer to live today, there's less violent crime, it's easier to get by, there's more technology, more innovation, medical technologies improve radically. All these things are true, but you still have to say it's not where we want it to be. Right. I'm not saying that the world's We you have to say that even you. Like even though you're I mean, like it's it's the worry about people barking at you. So, worry about people It's still terrible in parts of the world. It's still terrible for people of of color. It's still terrible for trans. It's still I got to I got to I got to No one's saying that there's not room for improvement, but you have to say that. Like you even though you felt compelled, you're like, "It's still not perfect." Yeah. And I wonder why it's so so controversial. I think it's important to

38:32um learn from the things that we do well and then apply that. I don't think it is that controversial. I think it's a trick. I think uh there's just a lot of people looking for every single opportunity to complain, even to someone like you who has, you know, objectively done nothing but good. You say one thing, like I mean, Steven Pinker took a ton of heat for saying that. And even though he's talking about actual scientific statistics, he's just he's not saying the world's perfect and everyone should shut up. What he's saying is we should look at this, you know, from a a bird's-eye view, look down and understand that although there's much work to be done, we're in a great place in comparison to the rest of human history. And it's it's helpful to realize that progress is possible. Just imagine that every There's something um that feels intuitively right as if every

39:22step forward would also have to equal a step backward elsewhere. Yes. And I don't think that's that's the case. There's plenty of things that you can invent that um that are are not that. Like and we see it for example with with carbon right now that there's countries where yeah, like like Sweden, GDP has grown a lot past 20 years, carbon emissions has gone down. So, um they call that the the decoupling. And I think what's really the the main challenge in in this century is to um you know, decouple um human progress from uh from those negative side effects. And I think the way to do that is not reactionary. It's really again um through innovation and um through through collaboration. I I agree with you and I think that a lot of times people just assume that this is these are the consequences of innovation, that there's a pro and a con to everything because there has been so many things

40:21There have been so many things in that are inventions that were There are pro and a con to it. But, that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be that way. No, and even if things have a pro and a con, it doesn't mean the pro is as big as the con. So, um and if that would be the case, all the technology every technology would be neutral and it wouldn't wouldn't matter what you invent, uh but it would mean that an atomic bomb is morally as neutral as an ocean cleanup system, which I just don't find plausible. So, I do believe that inventors, entrepreneurs, they put a certain morality into their creations, into their technology. There is um you know, there is a certain use that you prescribe with your invention. When you don't use nuclear bombs to um wash your car, right? So, I mean, you you use it not for benign uses unless maybe you want to terraform Mars, which you know, some people

41:22propose to do with atomic bombs. I don't know if that's a good idea. Um but um yeah, I I I don't think technology is neutral. That it has a mar- morality. So, what that means is as that as long as we consequent consistently develop net positive technologies, you know, eventually, you know, the world does get better and better. If say technology is 60% good and maybe has 40% downside, um you know, okay, but then we can invent a solution for that 40% and maybe that's again net positive and you kind of get this this cascade of of ever improving world. No, I think what you're saying sounds beautiful. And if more people thought the way you're thinking, I think the world would be a better place. I I like the the positivity. I like the optimism in what what you're thinking in terms particularly in terms of what's what's possible with innovation. Yeah. Well, I

42:20I just don't think that being against something is very productive. Um I Yeah, it's it doesn't really move us forward. Um so, rather than you know, protesting against the things that I don't agree with and there's certainly things that I don't agree with. Um but again, I don't think it's it's very helpful. Rather than doing that, I much rather build towards a future that I that I do agree with. Listen, man. I think what you're saying is very very logical. I wish more people thought like you. You're a great role model for a lot of uh kids to use your energy in a positive direction. You know, it can it can be done. Yeah. Um Sure. I I mean, I think we agree with you, too. Yeah. Do you think that um I mean, when when you're looking at this uh this possibility of getting 50% of the ocean's garbage out in 5 years, do you think that's realistic in terms of like the resources that you

43:22have, the the funding that you have and all that stuff? And if not, how can people help? Is there uh do you have a website where people can um Yeah. So, donate? So, definitely you know, we don't yet have both uh you know, we we don't have the technology ready yet to to really clean up the patch. The rivers is different story, but we're really ready to scale. Um but on the ocean, we we still need some you know, need some iteration. Um and of course, uh the funding isn't there yet. So, of course, on our website theoceancleanup.com, people can donate. People can also Okay, cool. There you go. Support the cleanup. Yeah. Um and so, you have is it like PayPal or what is it? Yeah, anything you want. And you can make uh you can join the queue for uh for the products that That's excellent. Beautiful. And so and are you getting a lot of success with that? People are contributing? So, um

44:17definitely so far has been enough to keep the keep the development going. So, it hasn't really been the the limiting factor, but of course, if we want to scale, we're going to need a lot more resources. So, so definitely a lot of help will be will be required there coming years. It's amazing that this has taken you so long and that you've been working on it so hard that you you have all this energy to be able to pursue something like this. I mean, it was there ever a time while you're doing this where you're like, "Jesus Christ, I don't know how long I'm going to be able to do this." Um Is this sustainable? Like this every day, no days off, constant? Yeah, so probably I should take a few days off. Hell yeah. Yeah, this this year's been tough. Do you feel guilty if you take time off? Uh yeah. Um a bit yeah. So, I usually I I feel that with a lot of my that's probably the case for

45:12everyone that a lot of my strengths are at the same time also my weaknesses. So, I think I'm pretty creative, so that's good, but at the same time, it means that um you know, I really have to force myself to not be distracted by new ideas. Um I I think I'm you know, I have a good work ethic, but that you know, the the downside is that it's also very hard to um you know, slow down. And I do realize that um um taking taking breaks, it is eventually it is better. It does you know, the best ideas that I've had were during were during times off. Really, like even the Ocean Cleanup idea was I was 16, was scuba diving in Greece. So, more plastic than fish, you know, that was during during a a break. So, so I I should probably take a few days. Yeah, man. Just go, you know, go somewhere where you could just take a few naps, just relax, recharge, you know, get your system back online

46:16perfectly. Yeah. Though I think one sign I would make is that you know, with everything that I've ever done in my life, I've always been very um obsessed about it, and I think when you know, it it's something that you cannot really stop thinking about it, it's it do- it never really feels like work, either. So it's um I A calling? Well, yeah, I just wouldn't be able to imagine just having a normal job doing something you're not passionate about. It's um so so you know, I I never really How How miserable would it be to just be in an office and have to stare at the clock waiting for 6:00 p.m. till you can go home? Right. That must be That's like my biggest nightmare. For a lot of people, that's their life, you know. Well, yeah, I I don't mean to offend offend anyone here, but There you being nice again, going in your pants. But it yeah. No, I agree with you. I understand

47:20exactly what you're saying. And a lot of people don't realize that the biggest asset they have in their life is is their time, and to to spend that that wisely, you have this this 80,000 hours of which I believe it's like, you know, 40 40 years, 40 hours a week, turns out to that's 80,000 hours. That you can use for anything, and um yeah, and I do believe that people often have a lot more potential than than what they you know, turn out to be doing if they um if they were to realize how valuable that time is. Um you know, and sort of the classic model also for more more wealthy people is to to work very hard and then to kind of donate here and there, but probably you could be a lot more effective if you were to just use your brain, use your time directly on um you know, working something that that matters. Well, I think what you just said is like legitimate inspiration

48:25talk. You know, there's a lot of uh people that Should I write a book? You should. Well, I mean, just a video I think is good enough. Just a video of you explaining your philosophy. I mean, you have accomplished so much and your idea your the what that you're doing is so noble and actually effective. There's something that people need to hear sometimes about different people's philosophies on how to spend their time and their energy. Mhm. And your your perception of instead of wasting it on other things, just concentrate on something that you think is going to make an impact, something that you're drawn to, something that And yeah, and when you do that, then you have a cause, then you have a thing that you're working towards. It's not just simply showing up and doing something that someone's paying you to do that you don't necessarily want to do, which is a

49:06lot of a trap. A lot of people find themselves in that trap and they need to hear people like you talk sometimes. That's that that's as inspirational as anyone who's like a professional inspirational or motivational speaker for a lot of folks. Maybe more so cuz you're actually doing something. Yeah. Well, probably my my words carry more credibility once the oceans are actually clean and yeah. Yeah, it'll help. But just the fact you got two cargo holds filled with two cargo containers. I mean, who the has that? No one. You know, couple of people have some bags. Yeah. And on and on the rivers we you know, have put that amount every day now. Really? Yeah. Every day on the rivers, wow. Did the river when you see that horrible pollution drifting down river, when you see that stuff, does that feel almost like impossible to capture all of it? Or or pointless cuz people keep throwing it

49:59in there? Well, of course that's that's the thing. So, we don't position this these interceptors as being the solution. The ultimate solution for the whole plastic. So, of course eventually, you have to make sure plastic doesn't end up in the ocean or in in the rivers in the first place, right? So, but I was standing so few weeks ago I was in in Indonesia, Malaysia to see the machines and talk with you government people there. And I was standing on the interceptor and you see this constant literally torrent of of plastic going into the interceptor and uh from and I was looking upstream and I realized, well, there's there's more than 5 million people living in the catchment area of this river and they have limited infrastructure, uh they consume so much and just trying to imagine all that plastic not ending up in the river with with such a diffuse source, 5 million people.

51:02Uh was just so hard to imagine and of course that's where we have to go to, but uh realistically speaking, it's just going to take um it's going to take a while. It's going to take maybe two decades, three decades, something like that. So, I think rather than kind of staring at kind of the perfect solution and um really just working on on that, which of course is very important, I think we also need to be a bit more pragmatic and also realize, well, okay, may may take 20, 30 years, let's at least make sure that during those 20, 30 years, we don't have 10 million kilos of plastic flowing out of this river into the ocean. So, You'd have to have some sort of cooperation with the people that are doing that and chucking that plastic into the river. So how do you So So the Someone's got to figure out a way to get to them. So I I do hope that the interceptors can have, you know, a

51:58positive influence upstream as well. So Or people say, "Yeah, I don't have to worry about it. They've got a thing now." Yeah. It's the best place to throw your plastic cuz they got a thing that scoops it out. So guilt-free dumping. Yeah. Yeah. No. So I it that that has a risk called the or that risk is called uh moral hazard. It's um it's a phrase from economics where in uh in the insurance industry it's kind of a thing where people make more damage once they're insured because they're less worried. Um I don't buy it at that much as an argument for for for the plastic problem because you know, it's not like it's um it's a conscious cost-benefit analysis whether you're going to throw something on the street or not. It's more of a unconscious thing. You just, you know, just do it, right? Or at least I I hope you don't, but some people do. And and then yeah, it's

52:55with that same logic, why maybe municipalities should also stop sweeping the streets. And maybe we shouldn't even collect garbage at people's houses because uh it only incentivizes the creation of garbage. So So I I don't think that is such a that though, right? No. Um and then there's this other effect called the the broken window effect, which um where I think it was back in the '60s in New York what they found is that in streets and neighborhoods where um you have buildings that um show obvious sign of decay, like um broken win- broken That's where the name comes from, broken windows or litter, that actually would incentivize other unlawful activities. So um the similar effect has been observed with like like a park. If a park doesn't have any litter, people litter less than when there is litter on the ground. So, so rather I think it's the opposite. If you

53:48If you truly believe that the ocean is going to be polluted forever, and it doesn't really matter. It's already dirty. You know, I That's not really a a strong motivation to to not litter, but if you say, "Okay, well, ocean is clean now. Um and then they love effort for that. And and it once once it's clean, I think that would actually be a motivation to to to not litter. I think you're 100% right. I think some of those uh videos where you see uh shorelines that are so thick, I I don't know what part of the world it is, but they're so thick with plastic you can't even get into the water. Like we can't wade out there and swim. Yes. It's uh it's so disheartening, and you you wonder where the world will be if not for people like you that are trying to come up with a solution, where the world will be in 50 years. Hm. 50 years ago this wasn't the case. Now it is. If

54:41you could see like a time-lapse video of these oceans from like go back to like 1900 to 2019, and then go back before 1900 does relatively unchanged for thousands of years, right? And then all of a sudden this massive change very quickly with the industrial age. Yeah. But again, I I believe this is a a transition phase. It's like our yeah, modern civilization being in its sort of teenage years, and uh mass. Well, can have to grow out of it, and um Couldn't agree more. I I I hope I I hope this worry that we all have will translate into improvement and progress. And I I would say the same thing, that we're in some sort of adolescent stage of of society and evolution, that we're in this weird sort of state where we're aware of how much we can change our environment, but also still contributing to the detriment of our environment in a non-sustainable way, and then eventually

55:39it's going to have to come to a head. You know, when you see people screaming about climate change and all these different things, I mean this is people realizing this is there's a lot going on that not maybe not everyone is completely and totally aware of and I'm but I'm with you. I'm I think it's it's good to be optimistic. It's healthier to be positive and I think it is it's logical that people will find a way out of this. I really do. Yeah, well you know, I'm I'm not sure whether um we'll be right. At at least I'm not sure either. I I hope we are the I think and I you know, I think eventually it's going to be fine. It's just a question how long is it going to take, how much damage will have been done in that period. But realistically it's it's the only way there is a chance that we figure this out, right? Have you faced any opposition to this? Is there anybody that thinks this is a

56:32fruitless idea? Cuz I know there were people that were actually I was very shocked. I read people that were actually happy that your project didn't work the first time. I'm like, what the man? There was people that I think it's a a young thing. Like cuz you're this really hopeful, young, intelligent guy who comes up with a solution. I think they probably were like, "Ah, who does he think he's so smart? him. I hope it fails." And when it failed, people actually enjoyed it. Yeah. I have Was that Did that hurt? No. Um So for me of So yes, of course, since the uh really since the beginning 2013, there have been people um yeah, relatively small group of people but there have been people that have been opposing it. And um most of them, ironically enough, are people that care about the ocean because they don't feel it's the right way to um to to tackle the issue and um

57:28but so the the way I deal with it is you and at least what I used to do in the beginning, now there fortunately there aren't many new arguments anymore, but just basically write them out every single argument, rationally analyze them, you know, no emotions. Emotions only model your your thinking in in that way. And make a distinction, okay, is this something where this person has a point? If so, great, because, you know, rather have somebody else pointing it out to me than us having to learn it in the field and, you know, having a having a unnecessary failure. Um and if the person doesn't have a point and if it's just you know, assumption or unfounded or whatever, um you know, then it's very easy for me to just ignore it. And So, and then the question is, well, what motivates people to be negative? And I think there's pretty four reasons. First of all, it's it's um,

58:18you know, genuine skepticism whether it can be done. And I think that's that's healthy. And I think we've proved most of those arguments wrong now. Uh but of course there's still, you know, the whole scale up thing, which we still have to do. So, still a bit of that, but it's kind of morphing now to few other things. Um I think one thing is um human uh risk perception, which sometimes I think is a is a cause of um of some uh opposition where um it it it's very easy for people to ignore the baseline when they look at risks. So, um you know, you can, for example, say, okay, nuclear power, super risky. We we shouldn't do that. But then if you compare it to the baseline of other sources of energy, it's actually probably the least risky um source of energy there is. Even solar energy is causes more deaths per megawatt hour than um than than nuclear power because people fall off roofs. So,

59:26so it's it's really So, if you ignore the baseline and if you say, "Okay, um doing this cleanup, we shouldn't do it because there's all these potential risks, right? Of um you know, potentially there is some sea life that may be caught, potentially there are uh these moral hazards. Uh there's all these risks and you know, basically, best thing to do is not do it." What people then are ignoring is sort of the the certain hazard of this hundreds of millions of kilos that that of plastic that's already in the ocean. And if you were to kind of pose the opposite question and say, "Okay, um so if we were to go to the ocean right now and just dump the equivalent amount of plastic that we were to take out, we'd dump it into the ocean, uh would you would you think that's a good plan?" And then, well, probably the answer is is is no. So, so I think there's there's a bit of this um

60:22you know, of course of course what we're doing, it's new, there are risks involved, but as long as we um you know, map them well, we take things step by step, I think they're manageable. And they're definitely not risks or or reasons to to not do it because, of course, the baseline is that there is already doing a lot of harm being done by uh the status quo. So, so I think that's one argument behind people's opposition. There's also a bit of um zero what what I call zero-sum game bias where people are saying, "Well, we shouldn't do this because the resources would be better spent elsewhere." I saw a um an an op-ed in Wired a few weeks ago where people were saying, "Well, or just one person actually was was writing where this person said, 'You you shouldn't um worry about the plastic pollution issue, you shouldn't do anything about it because climate

61:13change is the biggest issue and all our attention should go there. Plastic pollution is just a distraction.'" And That's foolish. Well, yeah, I think you know, there's 7 and a half billion people in the world and um we can do more than one thing at the same time, I think. Yeah, I mean, should you not wash your dishes because your carpet is dirty? I mean, it doesn't make any sense. Both of them are a problem. Clean both of them. This this idea that you should only think about climate change. It's like, "Oh, don't think about the giant Pacific garbage patch that's twice as big as Texas. Are you serious?" It's a dumb argument. Both of them are important. To think about both of them are important, but a part of writing an article today is writing something that people will get upset about. That's part of it is like generating outrage. Clickbait stuff. Having controversial

61:58opinions. Being a contrarian. All those things are profitable today. I mean, that's a giant part of why people write articles. They don't write articles They don't write articles to state an objective, well-thought-out perspective always. Sometimes people do, but a lot of times people make some clickbaity and they kind of twist a story and twist an idea of you are, twist it to sort of make their narrative make more compelling, be more compelling and Right. sell more or click more and get more ad sales. Yeah, I I wonder whether that's in part behind the growing tribalism and polarization that you see everywhere. Social media. I mean, the the fact that Facebook's algorithms in in a sense support outrage, right? Like these these things are designed to support My friend Ari Shaffir tested this and it's really interesting because he tested it to find out what it What

62:50does it actually support? What it actually supports is what you're interested in. And if you're interested in being outraged, it'll show you the things that outrage you. So, he decided to just only YouTube puppies. Yeah. And that's all YouTube would show him. It's puppies. He's like, "No, you This is what you're into. If you're into getting mad about the border and getting mad about the climate and getting mad about abortion and getting mad about whatever the it is, that's what it'll show you because that's what you're interested in." Right. You know, my YouTube feed is mostly muscle cars and fights. Like, why? Cuz that's what I'm interested in. You know, I'm just uh that's I I you know, and occasionally science things. Yeah. But, that's just because that's what you search for. That's it'll show you what you search for. I'm sure you're somewhat happy that

63:33it shows you those things rather than Yes. Sure. I don't think I don't think it's as sinister as people want to say it is. I think that the issue is human nature. We we are compelled to uh get upset about things, and I think a lot of it is people that feel disempowered in their own existence. The people that you were talking about that are stuck in cubicles and that are staring at that clock waiting for the buzzer to ring so they can go home. Right. Those people are online. They're tweeting. They're taking a and tweeting, "Fuck this guy's little kid thinks he's going to fix this shit." That's a lot of what's going on. There's a lot of people that are upset because they just it's fun to be upset when your life sucks. It's fun to on somebody. It's fun to get mad about the the border or what you know, you don't live in South Dakota. You're nowhere near the border. What are you worried

64:18about? You Well, you're worried about you're just angry. People are just angry. You know, it's like these aren't logical discussions that people are having. They're shout-offs and Mhm. and it's it's a natural part of human nature to get upset about stuff and you know, and even someone who's doing something as beautiful as your perspective and so or or you your your idea. Instead of just saying, "Well, this this guy is doing something amazing. We need someone like this who's just as innovative and just as inspired to try to tackle this climate issue. And we need more people like him. This is amazing." Instead of that, like you're spending your resources incorrectly. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. He got you though. You're talking about it. Yeah. Mhm. Sure. Um And yeah, I I suppose it's um you know, from the perspective of the person who who writes that, it's uh he's got a point.

65:09Yeah. And um so and that and and indeed if you're just uh saying what everyone else says, nobody would see your opinion, right? Exactly. That's a big part of it. Well, there's journalists are right now, and it's not their fault. It's just print journalism is almost on the way out in terms of like buying things, buying newspapers and buying magazines. Their numbers are radically down. Sure. So, they resort to online things. Well, the in the online world, you have so much competition. You have competition from a million different things that people can choose to look at or read. And you know, to get them to read a article, like you got to you got to have something good in there. So, you have to distort. You have to inflame. You have to get people polarized. Got to get them upset. You got to paint a picture that makes you want to click on it. Like, what is he doing? That idiot's wasting his

66:03time trying to PULL DOESN'T HE KNOW WHAT GRETA THUNBERG HAS BEEN SAYING? HOW DARE YOU? That's That's what's going on, man. Yeah. You know, but it's it's just a fun, weird time for humans. You know, there's there's a lot of negative things, but there's also a lot of positive things. It's a fun, weird time. There's a lot going on, and it's happening very, very, very quickly. And the prognosticators, the people that are trying to you know, have some sort of an idea of where this is all going, no one really knows. And change is happening at such a rapid pace that it scares everybody. Mhm. So, they're looking to define things, and they're looking for control, and they're looking to be the person who's got it figured out, because nobody's got it figured out. It's madness. The Earth is heating, the ice caps are melting, the fish are disappearing, people are eating

66:52dolphins. It's madness. It's madness out there. The garbage patch is growing and growing and growing. And if it wasn't for someone like you Mhm. who's actually acting and doing something about it, Mhm. it would just get worse. You have a workable solution. You should be applauded. Mhm. Yeah. that guy. You heard me. Right, Jamie? I don't think what's specifically hard. him hard, right? Yeah. Jamie agrees. Uh consensus, pretty Yes, consensus is that guy. Yeah. But but consensus doesn't create clicks, so maybe we need some controversy. there or they. Yeah. They're trying to make a living, you know, I mean, I understand. It's like in this day and age like you have to have things you have to write about. So they write about things and it might not necessarily be um you know, honest. Yeah. So how do you incentivize the truth? That's the question. I get again, I think we're in this

67:46transitionary phase. And I also think technology is going to make a lot of what we're concentrating on obsolete. I think um we are really really close to some crazy breakthroughs in terms of the distribution of information that's going to make it obsolete. Mhm. And people aren't going to care as much about click-baity things because you know, you're going to be able to feel things from digitally created media. I mean, I think we're very very close to augmented reality becoming an an essential part of people's lives. You know, the same way your phone has become an essential part of your life. 20 years ago, no one carried a phone around. It was very rare and you would you know, 1999, I mean, a small percentage of people had phones on them. Now it's 100%, right? All this stuff is happening at this exponentially increasing rate. When they implement augmented reality, and who was

68:41telling us that Apple's like somewhere around 2021? Man, it might have been I've been looking that up. I mentioned it once or twice. did. Um it might have been you. Um but some other folks have brought it up too that Apple's really close and they're they're in the process right now of developing some sort of augmented reality goggles. And they'll be like glasses. Like, you know, you put on pair of you know, just like this. But you'll be seeing all these things in front of you. You'll be able to move them around. You'll be able to see navigation. You'll be able to be able to turn it on and off. It'll probably work on Siri. You'll be able to talk to it. And you're going to be able to get video and information written as podcasts, all these things, music. It's going to come through this. And probably this is one step in this ever-increasing trend of us getting further and further

69:32immersed in technology. And augmented reality will lead to some sort of uh impossible to determine virtual reality where it's indistinguishable from regular reality. We're We're like We're like 50 years away from literally being in the matrix. Yeah. Yeah, so So, I I think it's underappreciated how much our behavior is also guided by technology. I mean, of course, we have our genes or genotype which kind of lies at the most fundamental level of how our our behaviors are formed. Um that's why, you know, there is such a thing as as as human nature. But then there is this whole sort of cultural layer but that that we humans created around us which um I call it technosphere. Maybe other people have different names for it, but it's indeed everything that we we interact with something like 30,000 inventions or 30,000 technologies through our entire lives. That's a huge amount and I think

70:35um you know, that environment that shapes your behavior, it um decides what kind of uh genes are are expressed. And the interesting thing is is it's not just the natural environment, but it's an environment we create. So, so probably um you know, when you think about people being born thousands of years ago, their genes were very, very similar to the people today. Yet, um how they behave is completely different. You know, look again at violence. And why is that the case? Well, it's thanks to uh these inventions, not just you know, physical inventions, but also cultural inventions and institutions that we created that um you know, shapes our behavior and um you know, probably you know, you know, human nature is or is the human behavior is very hard to change unless it actually um you know, benefits what what we do. Look at, you know, smartphones, how fast that happened versus

71:40uh how long it takes for smoking to to go away. You know, one is um you know, one is kind of incentivizing the continued use of it, um you know, through addictive products, while um with um with uh smartphones, it's again, it's it's something that you you want to use. So, um so, I just wonder whether you know, that interaction between humans and the technology that we create kind of invent incentivizes inventors to become morally better and better because they Are Did you lose me already or did you Okay. No. So, so, that you know, the the question is um Well, people are incentivized primarily by profit, right? Right. Um but the you know, the the behavior that that people um you know, express is is kind of shaped by by the what they they live in. And you know, who knows? Um maybe a person today is you know, is more incentivized to to do good things because of the environment

72:44that has been created rather than a thousand years ago. No, I I think that's absolutely the case. And I hope that people's ability to to express themselves through social media, although those are often negative and sometimes also it can give you a sense of the moral landscape of the culture. Like not just the people on the far fringes that are the the most angry and vehement about things, but people that have objective, real, rational thoughts. Like the like the fact that you were able to read that article and objectively assess whether or not someone has any good points or not. If we could all do that about everything. You know, if people had that sort of perspective instead of being so reactionary, instead of being so angry about things, just look at criticisms, look at possibilities, look at all these different things and then shape technology to fit within our ethical and

73:36moral boundaries. So, there's part there's And also there it's very profitable, right? Because if if things don't feel if you don't have like a guilty feeling about buying something. Like every time I get a plastic straw now, I feel guilty, right? If there was something that you that people where they innovate to the point where you don't feel guilty supporting products and you feel like this company has the same sort of ethics and ideas that you have, that's all good. And I think we're moving more towards that, but again, like we're we're dealing with a very short window of time where human beings have had to adapt to this incredible amount of change that takes place during a small period of time. Yeah, it's kind of the the where one way to look at problems is that it's kind of this chasm between you know, human nature, human behavior and how we want the world to be. And indeed, you

74:26know, social media is that's the case, but similarly for environmental problems. We humans are are driven by you know, certain things. Indeed, you know, self-interest is definitely a big part of it. And yet, um you know, that's not creating the world right now that that we want live in because the the the technosphere the technology that is the interface between the world of so sort of nature and and human nature that interface is not uh compatible with both. So, you either have something that's compatible with human nature so it's like a you know like a a big car with a V8 engine uh but that's not compatible with with nature or um you have something that's compatible with nature which is pretty you know walking but it's not really compatible with human nature because we're you know lazy and greedy. It's cold outside and you got to get somewhere in a snowstorm.

75:23So, ideally what we do is rather than trying to change humans which I don't think is a very futile activity because there is such a thing as human nature. We have genes. We have this evolutionary history. Uh rather than trying to change that I think it's much more effective to change the the technology around us that um you know enables our you know our inner desires and behaviors to um be positive rather than the negative. I agree with you. I think it's going to be difficult though to get that same sort of uh positive result um when it comes to our addiction to technology. Our addiction to smartphones in particular. I mean for a long time it was like televisions, right? Like people talked about how much kids watch TV. Kids watch TV 8 hours a day. It's so much. It's so bad. You don't really hear that anymore. Right. You hear about phones and this is uh sort of an undiscussed

76:22rapid shift in what we waste our time doing. Right. And most of it is you hear people talking about and most of the use of these phones I would I'd be willing to bet a giant chunk of that social media. Yes. Right? Yeah and I I I suppose that's again this sort of infantile stage of that technology, I suppose. infantile. Adolescent before, now you're dropping it down. So, uh I think you're right. Yeah. I mean, it's it's again, probably we can engineer social media and um you know, our information technology to incentivize people to do good things, but indeed now it's it's probably incentivizing the the use of scrolling through timelines because you watch more ads. I also, I think it's our bodies and our minds and the way we view the world, it's we're not designed to live in this digital realm. Sure. This is a completely new thing for the species and I think we don't really know how to

77:27handle the dopamine rush that we get from clicking on Instagram and scrolling through your feeds and checking your DMs and reading your emails and constantly interacting with people and checking, did you text me back? Oh, what did he say? Oh, well, that's interesting. What about this and that and this and that? You're just all day all day interacting with some digital device. We're not made for this. We're supposed to go outside. You know? And then you have, you know, very bright engineers somewhere in a big shiny building um AB testing all day to see whether, you know, a red dot on a certain icon in the social media app makes people click more or less and that's Yeah. Well, Instagram's kind of they're dabbling with this idea of taking away the likes. Right. Like, what if we just didn't show anybody the likes? Right. You don't know how many likes you get.

78:16You put up a picture, it's just a picture. Move on. Yeah. No. You put up a picture, he got 70,000 likes for that picture? What the man? You check it. Check it an hour later. 74,000. Right. Ooh, it's going viral. Yes. It's weird. That that likes thing is one of the weirdest drugs. Nobody saw it coming and people get addicted to you know, saying things that get likes, right? Putting things up that are socially conscious to let everybody know let everybody know how virtuous you are. And exactly Give them likes. Yeah. And it's it's all making use of I suppose the the flaws of our our human nature. What I'm worried is that one day those likes will actually be a physical feeling. Oh yeah, you get like a little jolt little love jolt. And they'll engineer the system to get you to seek those constant love jolts. Yes. Why not? I mean if they Look, if if they're going to give you augmented

79:17reality, we are how many generations I don't know away from something something being embedded in your body, right? People have already decided to do that. There's some Was it a guy or a girl embedded a Tesla Model 3 key in their arm so that they didn't ever have to have their key in their pocket. They could just walk up to their Tesla and the door unlocks. Does that help you climb in? Software updates, key doesn't work anymore. What if it runs out of battery? They're going to cut you open like a fish. Just I mean what the are people doing? Those are people at the fringes. They are at the fringes. But there's more of them than you think and if they make it more if they make it simple like you just need like a like a flu shot. Bang. They just inject it in you. any sort of innate fear or aversion towards you know, crossing that interior exterior boundary with

80:14technology. Um Fear is a good way of looking at it, right? Like what is fair? Is it fair if you agree to do it? Like look, is it fair if you decide to get a face tattoo? Right? If you if you It's up to you, man. If if it's fair it's like, "Hey man, my credit card company told me they'd give me 10% off if I stick this, you know, this credit card chip under my skin somewhere. Yes. I suppose if you in again incentivize it with um you know, with selfish interests. Yeah. Maybe it will take off. There's that and there's also the the big concern is what if these I mean we're talking about income inequality in this world. A big one would be what if there's a jump that you can make in enlightenment, intelligence, access to information, number crunching, the ability to assess risk versus reward. This is all done computer-wise and it's it's done through some sort of additional piece of

81:13hardware that they give you or put in your body, but it costs a lot of money. So, the people that can afford it initially are the people that are valuable they have money in the first place. They're the wealthy people already. Cuz it's very valuable, but then the people that really need it they can't afford it. So, by the time it becomes something every all the money's gone. Everybody's chewed it all up. Everybody's figured out how to hack the system. You should become a writer for a Black Mirror. It seems like a Black Mirror episode. Seems like it would work, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's Well, that's what people are worried about when it comes to longevity, too, right? They're worried about technological innovations that are allowed people to, you know, nanobots and all sorts of different weird things are going to repair cells and allow people to live for extended periods of

81:57time, but then who are these people going to be? They're going to be the king class, you know, they're going to be these super duper wealthy people of the future that are going to, you know, hold this over the poor folks who can't afford the technology? Yeah. Yeah, so it truly seems like the the technologies that we're developing or that at least are not too far away um our institutions aren't ready yet um to to really cope with those. Because definitely that would be probably increase inequality quite a lot. Yes, that that is one of the major concerns when it comes to this sort of rapid change that we're facing right now. You know, another one of course is artificial intelligence. There's there's people that I respect very very much that have a very negative view of what the future of artificial technology is going to mean to the human race. The human race

82:55Elon? Elon? Yeah, both of them scare the out of me every time I talk about it. Yeah. Sam Sam Sam and I did an episode and I um, where he talked about artificial intelligence and the rise of it and the fact that once it's uncorked it's really not going to be able to be put back in the bottle. Yeah. And he we talked about it for like an hour and a half after it was over like the rest of the day I was bummed out. Sure. I was like, this is inevitable. Yes. So So personally I have a very I suppose a very optimistic and pessimistic view of technology at the same time. I think on one hand um, it allows us to to improve the world and that's what we've seen and it's it's gradual and it continues probably because people want to solve their own problems and with that inadvertently solve other people's problems. That's how progress happens I believe. Um, but then at the same time while the

83:52world is getting a lot better it's also getting riskier. I mean 2,000 years ago or maybe even 200 years ago there was no way to wipe out humanity. There there simply wasn't. You even if you wanted it to happen very badly you know, you could scream wouldn't happen. Now though there are actually people who have the power to do that and um And rapidly. Like you could the whole of humanity could be wiped out in a day. Yeah, and um, now it's fortunately just a few people, but imagine if that goes from a few people to quite a few corporations to maybe Right. Right. even everyone. I think there's a there's this um you know, this this sort of brain teaser or um mental experiment that Nick Bostrom uh came up with that says, "Well, what if you could have kind of this atomic bomb that you could just make yourself in your microwave?" It's like, well, I I maybe at some point

84:50in time it would just not be be economically feasible anymore to um rebuild cities because you just would Too much nuking them all the time. Oh my Right. So, so I don't know. So, it's on one hand, you know, and so so I think that's kind of the this this the scary, you know, risky aspect of it, but at the same time when you think of it um I would much rather trust or entrust an an average person today with the button for nuclear detonation uh detonation device than somebody a thousand years for sure. Yeah, one of the Mongols or someone. Some savage who just is like, "Let's do it." Um Nick Bostrom freaked me out, man. And we had a conversation about uh probability of life being a simulation. It's very high probability. It's more probable that we're in a simulation now than we're not. And my puny monkey brain some logic, yeah. Yes. That's the that's where it gets weird. Like when you deal

85:49with the the number of potential civilizations out there, the number of human beings, the amount of time that life has had a chance to evolve, not just here, but everywhere in the entire universe. What are the possibilities that a simulation has occurred already? Very high. What are the possibilities that we're in a simulation right now? Also pretty high. Simply because there's only one base layer of simulation, so yeah. Also, life seems fake. Right? It seems weird. It see There's so much of it that seems like, "Boy, this is Okay, a few weeks ago I saw like a duck in a pond just making infinite circles. I was like, "That's definitely a glitch." Yeah. That Yeah, someone needs to fix the code. Debug that yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I of course it I mean it's lots of fun to think about these things, but you know, reality Well, the I I suppose the depressing thing is that we'll likely never know.

86:48Well, maybe. Maybe one time somebody will figure out the solution and This dystopian view of the future is it's I mean, I get I get the perspective. I get the dystopian perspective. But right now as was said, like, you know, according to Pinker, according to statistics, things are really better than they've been before. And my concern is that my concern is what one of the things that Elon said that we're the biological bootloader Right. official life. I mean, look, when a caterpillar makes a cocoon, it doesn't know what the it's doing. It just does it, you know? It just makes a cocoon and becomes a butterfly. When you know, we're buying the iPhone 36 and the Cybertrucks and and trying to get a you know, solar-powered plane off the ground, we we probably giving in to this thing. With this Look, what we have right now is more than sufficient for survival. If we had just decided, if we

87:43got all the people in the world say, "Hey, watches, we make watches that keep perfect time. Computers, they get online, it's great. You can download YouTube videos. Cameras, they're very clear. They take very clear pictures. Okay, TVs look great. Everything looks great. Internet speeds, pretty good, man, especially with 5G. Let's stop." YEAH. EVERYBODY STOP. STOP. Stop making stuff. Stop It just everything we have right now, just keep making No no new innovation. Let's just enjoy life together. Right. That sounds like it's that sounds so logical but yet also so ridiculous. Like no one's going to agree to that. No one's going to that iPhone 37's already in production, It's going to be better and faster and it's going to wrap around your dick and keep you comfort at night. It's they're going to figure out better stuff no matter what forever. It's part of what makes people people. We have

88:37this unquenchable thirst for innovation. And that's one of the weird things that freaks me out about this move towards technology is that materialism, which seems to be this like really standard behavior with a giant percentage of the population. Like people of really into things. And this desire to have the newest greatest things is what propels innovation because there's a financial incentive because people are making money off of selling you these better watches that you don't really need or these better cars or these better computers. And all these things just keep getting better and better and better and better. And a lot of it is fueled by this weird desire that people have for stuff. Sure. Which doesn't make any sense. Like how where'd that come from? Well, that might be the stuff that makes the caterpillar make the cocoon. Um yeah, I mean it's probably just making use of the same

89:29um biological mechanisms as social media, right? It's you feel like you need it. Yep. Tricks. Little tricks. Yep. Yeah. And next thing you know, they go, "Listen, we have two options. Either we let artificial life take over and be the superior life form or we merge." Let's just let's just make friends. Yeah. Let's just make friends with artificial intelligence. Take this little chip, boy. Come on. Yeah. Well, so probably if it's possible and uh it it it likely is. Um it's probably pretty inevitable that it's going to happen. I I think it was Edison that said that um I never invented anything. I just took elements of what was there. I probably the the quote is a lot better than I'm sort of paraphrasing now, but um yeah, it's kind of if it's possible you know, it's it's kind of Yes. there. It's It's in the air. invented, figured out. you just have to discover it. And uh uh

90:28So so probably that's going to happen, but what does give me hope is that you know, to my point of the nuclear detonator uh 1,000 years ago for us now. It seems like we are getting more responsible and um you know, our ability to foresee the future allows us to invent things, but it also allows us to to kind of think about the risks and to to try and mitigate the risks before they they happen. And I don't think there's nearly as enough enough attention given to these existential risks. Um but um the fact that some people are thinking about it is um yeah, it's kind of hopeful. No, I agree. I really do. And I I And I'm posing these things about this dystopian potential future just cuz it really is probably something that we should think about, but I am hopeful that as technology improves, our understanding of humans improves along with it. And Exactly. And and also that perhaps some

91:31technology, like I'm not exactly sure what this neural link thing is with Elon that he's coming up with, but I think something some of it has to do with a much more rapid access to information. Sure. You know, that has to do with increasing Yeah, increasing bandwidth. Yeah. I Hopefully that will become I mean, you don't want to say hopefully some wires they stick in your brain will become standard because that seems that seems like we are merging. I mean, that is merging, right? That's that's that's the merge with technology. Marshall McLuhan said the greatest thing about this. He said, "Human beings are the sex organs of the machine world." What a great quote, right? Yeah. That's one of those quotes you just go, "Whoa." that is exactly what it is. The machine world can't make itself. Needs us. Like, if we do make artificial life, and McLuhan I think wrote that in the '60s.

92:26Yeah. I think that's from What is the book? He's got a book uh media something. But, um What is the book? Marshall McLuhan. So, so it's it's a broader point that our the understanding media or media Understanding media. Okay, 1964. Yeah. 1964. Imagine if that guy called it Yeah. in '64. So, so definitely it's it's a it's a broader point of people make and that we are in a way enslaved by our technology and that I think um in the book Sapiens by Harari Yes. Great book. he makes the point about grain enslaving us because Yes. with the agricultural revolution 10,000 years ago um they the we didn't really become better according to him. It was less nutritious. It was um you know, it was just a worse way of living than the hunter-gatherers did. But, it was very good for the population of grain and there was no way back for us. So, I suppose yeah, that's the thing with all our inventions. They

93:39um you know, there there are these these lock-in effects that can kind of uh lock us into an inferior position. Yeah. And Yeah. So, so you know, of course the risk with artificial intelligence is that a similar thing happens. Yeah, and that's not very benign. And um Yeah, we didn't foresee those consequences that we will be locked in in the year 2065 or whatever it is. It's one of the more fascinating things about people though that we have the ability to contemplate the possibilities, that we have the ability to look at this and go, "Oh, okay. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What are we doing here? Hold on." Right. Hold on, we're making a mistake here. Look what wheat's got us doing. Look what rice has got us doing. God damn it. Look how much people there are in the city. There's so many people in the city. What are we going to going to feed all these people?

94:26Right. We didn't think of this. We just kept breeding. And you know, that's the big concern when people start developing to into new areas. When people start expanding the the technological or the the rather societal sprawl. When you see these urban sprawls just slowly encroaching on new land and pushing out into areas where there was no houses before. It's always weird for me when I drive by a place like Boulder, Colorado does a really good job of limiting the amount of construction that gets done there. They're pretty fierce about it. But even they have been sort of lightening up a little. Things have been getting built and every now and then I'll drive by like if I'm in Colorado, I'm like, "Oh, that wasn't there before. Now it's there." Everybody thinks it's harmless. No big deal, just a new building. Used to be an open field. Who's that helping? It's not

95:14helping anyone. And then another building outside of that and another building on And then, you know, if you could you have the ability to look in time 50 years from now, you'd see Yeah. You'd see this spread where this uh weird wart of humanity starts moving across the globe. There's this cool feature in Google Maps where you can have or Google Earth where you can have time lapses from satellite photos for like past 6 years. And for example, you look at Dubai like 30 years ago, nothing. And you suddenly All these houses. Dubai's a crazy example. That's a crazy example. That place is so strange. It's like Las Vegas on steroids. Yeah, Las Vegas on steroids with its own um islands. They They man-made islands the shape of the world like all the different continents of the world. You seen that? Yeah, yeah. And it's not doing like it's some of it apparently they have to like

96:02keep adjusting cuz the tide rises and And apparently the actually Is this the Google Maps thing? It's another one but Is another one in Dubai? Oh my god, this is insane. This is insane. It's happening so fast. How many years is this spanning? 20? Oh my god, that's amazing. So the actually some of our engineers used to work for the dredger and they actually helped build the the Palm Islands and apparently the problem is that the the water doesn't really move in the arms of the the palms so it kind of gets stinky and Oh, no. algae so you this prime real estate that just stinks. Oh, no, really? Oh, that makes sense. But the water in between it would get stale. Of course, that makes sense. this is bonkers. This video is bonkers. see the either actual Oh, there's the uh Yeah. That's the thing. So all that water inside, yeah, it doesn't get recycled. It doesn't move

97:02around. No, so the How the did they have to do that to keep the like an ocean break, right? I suppose the water from smashing into it like the outside rim? They can't just pump everything I suppose. So now what do they do with all the stinky water? You just accept it? Good question. That world's tallest building is bananas. Right. That thing I've seen pictures that people have taken from the top floor. It doesn't even look real. Like all you flat earthers, you need to go to Dubai. Get up there, you could literally see the curve. Yeah, and when you stand at at its foot, like because of its shape, it looks even taller. Can you see the curve from up there? See if go to uh I don't think so. You don't think so? Maybe on an airplane you can't see it either. You can kind of see it. That's true. With a bit of Yeah, you got to kind of see it. Yeah. Yeah, you got

97:53to be way up. Right. Would you go in one of those Virgin trips? Do they do Virgin spaceship fly above the Earth and look down? um good safety statistics uh um Good for you. early adopting. Yeah, it's probably not good to be an early adopter in the in the space uh area. What kind of psychos would want to be on that first flight? Well, I mean I I suppose Richard um would have to go in one of the first ones himself, right? Oh, if I was him, I would clone myself and put a fake me on that and see if that blows up. I wouldn't trust it. double. Yeah. What is this, Jamie? Is this for It's like the observation deck at the same time. I'm getting vertigo just looking down. I am freaking out. I get like legit This is all GoPro, so this is what what flat-Earthers use to show that the Earth is actually flat. It's the perspective shift. But just the height of that goddamn thing

98:46makes my palm sweat. I I was there last year and there was somebody sticking her phone out of the Yes. NO. NO. NO. OH, goddamn people are crazy. Yes. Imagine she dropped it and it fell and just went right through someone's head. Like literally like a missile. Boom, your head would just explode. Imagine getting hit in the head with a cell phone from a mile up. That's good. People are so crazy. It would take so long, too. It puts the the word burst mode on a new perspective to that term. They should have like an alarm that goes off when someone drops something. Someone can quickly hit an alarm and by the time it hits the bottom the the bottom part will hit They can all back away from the the building. These guys are on the tiptop. No, shut the up. Oh my god, they're hanging on. Dude, look at my hands. These guys This kid's with his dad, it looks like. Great, you're both nuts. Dude,

99:52my hands are sweating right now. I can't handle these. Oh. Um that dude that we've had on, James Kerr with a K. Kingman? Kingman? James The guy who does those Is that it? Kingman, right? He does these videos from these places. Kingston, thank you. Sorry, James. Is he American? I smoked a lot of weed. No, he's He lives in England. And he takes these videos where he's like hanging on by one hand with a selfie stick. Yes. Looking down these giant skyscrapers and I My hands sweat so hard just watching those. I can't imagine if I was actually doing that. What a terrible instinct or a terrible thing that happens to people when you see people hanging on to something, your hands sweat. So, do your hands sweat when you're hanging on? Yeah, that's not helping you. That's the worst thing that can happen is your hands get all slippery. man. I'm just looking at his channel. Looks

100:56like he recently had an accident. He's got a video posted on September 11th. Says the day I nearly died. And he's got a big old like stitches, gash. talked to him about that when he was on the podcast. Does he think about that? Like But he's kind of locked into that now. You're sort of married to this idea that you you know, you're the guy who goes up there and does that. You can't just say, "Well, I've done it. No more." It's like the grain. Yep, it's like the grain. Yeah, he's married to the thrill. Well, Alex Honnold is the best example of that, right? He's this free solo guy. A free solo climber that goes up El Capitan with no ropes. It's Did you watch the Yes. that. I've had him on the podcast a couple times. He freaks me out. I just don't understand how he can do it. I get I I get it, you know, I get That's his thing. He's passionate about it and sweat. My hands are so sweaty.

101:54It's just a weird thing that people do where they try to activate their adrenal glands, you know, they try to activate their their thrill glands. Right. Yeah, I do respect that. I mean, he's it's his passion and he he follows his passion. some people clean the ocean, some people climb 45° angle backwards up the sides of a mountain. Wouldn't want to be his family, but No. Right? Yeah. I'm trying to It looks like he might have stopped doing that. I mean, he might be getting paid to still do it as like a stunt person for movies cuz he did one for a movie recently, but he has a video from this year recently that says like YouTube demonetized all his videos and he's just just been posting car stuff. YouTube has demonetized his videos? Why? Because they don't want to incentivize Oh, wow. That's interesting. He he's had a video explaining it. You could probably talk about it, but he says at

102:43the end of climbing YouTube demonetized me August 22nd. Wow, that's interesting. There you go. Well, that's interesting. Huh. Being more realistic. Yeah, but here's the thing. They demonetize it, but yet they still have it up and they still have an algorithm that'll click you after his video and suggest a bunch of other they're going to monetize. But it might not have ads on it. Right, his video I'm sure doesn't have ads on it, but it doesn't mean it's not effectively a part of their system, like that that sort of uh that's gets revenue because you know, they're going to recommend a bunch of videos that do have ads and you're going to keep clicking. I think they're as far as YouTube stands it's just like if an advertiser saw their ad on this video that we can't be a part of that. Well, I think also from YouTube's perspective almost all of it is illegal. They Yeah, very good point, too.

103:36That's I think that's a big one. Like I don't think you could do illegal on YouTube and get money off of it. Then they they would be responsible in some sort of a way, right? Makes sense. Boy, I'm over here fixing the world, dude. Yeah, done. Um Anything else? Um Do we cover it all, basically? Yeah, I think so. So, yeah. Um Of course, the oceancleanup.com. People want to help. Ocean Cleanup the Ocean Cleanup The oceancleanup.com. Uh people, please go there and help. We'll we'll help, too. We'd love to contribute, love to be a part of this, for sure. Um if there's anything else we can do, if there's anything that you need promoted, or you want to let people know, we'd be happy to help. But, uh thank you. Thanks for being you, man. Thanks for inventing this, and thanks for pursuing this so doggedly, and have being so obsessed with what is a incredibly worthy cause. Appreciate

104:30you, man. Well, thanks so much. My pleasure. All right, bye, everybody. See you. That's really neat, man. All right. That was really fun.