Dr. Rhonda Patrick

00:01have you been here since you had a kid yeah I was your last right about four months after I didn't sleep at all it's amazing I like he was able to talk further and now your kid is how old 13 months we start talking he oh he says I mean he's he's now like his new thing is he says all done all done so he'll say it like he'll say it before I change his diaper cuz he doesn't want me to go through that you know well done well done it'll say it like Elena's crib and say it like when he's ready to get out you know a bed early in the morning and I'm like waiting I'm like maybe back to sleep now being a scientist and having a child are you are you like cognizant of like every single factor that's taking place like nutrition all the input emotional input environment like must be kind of mind-blowing and its mind exhausting - yes it is I'll give you an example right now like

01:02as we're traveling right and you know I'm pretty this the BPI so plastic bottles you know I'm having to give him water and he's like obsessed for whatever reason he's obsessed with drinking I brought his like you know nice cup but he doesn't wanna drink it out of his cup he wants to drink at all these plastic bottles it's novel and crinkly sound and anyways you know so I'm like all I can think about is the BPA and you know be am I am i exposing him to too much and what's it doing and is that BPA is it leach only when it gets hot is that how it works so and that's another thing I was thinking about in my hotel today it's making a Goffe with one of those one of those paper cups it has the plastic lining and like I don't know what's in the plastic lining BPA or some of the BPA alternatives which have also been shown - how does BPA stand for bisphenol A so

01:55to answer your question there's been experiments done that have shown heat so boiling boiling water and putting it in plastic increases the BPA that leeches into the the solution into the water by like 55 fold so yes definitely heating it up is like wayward one of the things I'm always now thinking about is you know going to Starbucks whatever the plastic lining they're putting in those cups when you get your hot tea or your hot coffee I don't know if there's BPA but there's now studies that have come out and these studies have been done in animals that show like bps and some of the other BPA replacements also have negative consequences on endocrine system on reproduction and some in some cases they're passed on to multiple generations now how much of that is actually translates to humans it's unknown but there have been studies at least with BPA that have shown that you

02:47know you give a person a single dose of BPA and it disrupts like their insulin sensitivity it also plays a role in like causing problems with in vitro fertilization so it's you know disrupting hormones and things like that so I was really cognizant about it during pregnancy because you know typically we do detox if I detoxify it quite well the half-life is like less than five hours and we excreted through urine it also comes out through sweat by the way which is really good but pregnant but you know when you're pregnant for whatever reason the placenta it you know you you're basically take the BPA your body it's in your body and your your liver will you know inactivate it to this like more benign compound but when it crosses over the placenta it gets in it gets activated again and so it's like that's why the effects are much more robust always on like the developing

03:42fetus and so I was really made sure I was like not drinking anything out of a plastic bottle or anything like that and when I was pregnant just because I mean I don't know right I didn't today there's there's a lot of studies that have been done in animals and just how much of that you know translate how significant is it it's really hard to say but it's certainly concerned it's probably compounding effect right with all the other environmental factors pollution particulates in the air oh yeah chemicals all the other jazz that we take into our body all the time right yeah and then the fact that actually aging bottles like as you for whatever reason as a bottle sis like if you keep using for example the study was done with baby bottles if you keep using a baby bottle and putting liquid in as the bottle aged more BPA was leached out into liquid so for whatever we I know it's just so it's

04:31another thing I'm thinking about with all like my son's stuff it's like everything's plastic and he's chewing on it's like you know at some point you just can't like there's you can't control everything now how many kids do you think you're gonna have right now one is its its I am so satisfied I'm full of so much joy and it's a lot of work and I you know he's 13 months so I've only had him a little bit over a year so right now I'm really happy with him being special um I don't know I think it's likely that maybe one but I'm not gonna like you know say for sure it's it's a lot of work it's a lot of work yeah and you know it's just adding another it's like well you you know you're gonna I've put a lot of energy and time you know I spend a lot of time with him doing lots of things and of course all the nutrition and all that but it's how do you do that with

05:23too it's very it's very satisfying though watching them play with their siblings it's really interesting like my two youngest my 8 in my 10 like watching them play together it's it's adorable watching them hold hands and do the stuff together it's really fun again they developed a very unique bond they fight all the time over nothing like give me that it's mine it's mine like you know all sudden like whoa whoa whoa what happened you know like there's always like some blow-up because they have zero control of their emotions anything that goes wrong it's just a floodgate it's either on or it's off and but they're really good at apologizing too which is really interesting we've taught them how to do that how to just say look everybody gets emotional it's okay apologize and hug it out yeah I think it's also another thing that wood is really important is teaching or your

06:12children how to be happy like you know because that's important they see that though they'll see that in you you know they imitate their environment if they see you know that you know how to be happy and then you can turn things around and you know make light of situations and they'll they'll they take on these behavior patterns really that's one of the more fascinating things is watching kids go wow what are you gonna do you know like when you do what are you gonna do and then you see them go what are you gonna do you're like wow watching an eight-year-old figure that I was kind of cool yeah that's nice that's nice to know yeah like right now my son he's just almost always just happy you know it's so and I'm thinking about like future does anything you know where ever thought what if he's gay yeah and that's where I'm like you know all the endocrine disrupters yeah who

07:08knows who knows what's happening yeah I mean and what's what's of major concern to me is living in major metropolitan areas with a constant pollution and I was reading a study that was talking about living in any major metropolitan area like New York City can take many years off of your life just from living there it will shorten your life yeah I've been reading multiple studies over the years about air pollution and you know there's there's compounds in air pollution that are carcinogens like you know benzene and there's also the particulate matter and how these you know how air pollution is increasing the risk for stroke heart attack Alzheimer's disease and this is like in dose-dependent manners and of course there's all sorts of confounding factors and you can never really show causality although some animal studies have been showing causality it's and and some of

08:02these things are really bad in developing nations that don't have a lot of regulatory right regulations on for example like automobile exhaust and so some some developing countries have like children coming down with like strokes and stuff like early like young teenage so and it's been this is of course you know been linked to air pollution so it's it's definitely a concern and then there's all sorts of studies talking about you know of course asthma but you know happiness and and and bring function and all that you know so and it's something like I live off of a busy road and then there's noise pollution which is another I mean so I it's like something that I've been like really really aware of and trying to like move out away from busy traffic II areas pretty for my son you know because I'm just very concerned about the health risks yeah I wonder also the in the impact of just being in

09:00an urban environment and the fact that it's not really natural and that maybe a person who's an adult could enjoy living in Manhattan and decide that they get a thrill out of living in the city but for a baby to grow up around all that concrete and glass and all these sharp hard edges and right angles that it's maybe not conducive to healthy brain development or that's not like what your what your body or your brain is naturally craving right there's been studies looking at for example like people that exercise in a metropolitan area versus like out in like a park nature and the you know all sorts of measurements of you know depressive symptoms are measured after and the ones that measured that did nature run we're far better at you know basically feeling feeling happier after after the run and the people that did in metropolitan city that make sense I mean I think that's

09:55why people like Central Park in New York City just says yeah you get something I mean it's really a great place it's really quite big one of the things about Central Park when you're in it you're like wow it's weird that this is in the middle of the city but it's a brilliant move to have this one I mean you think about how much that real estate would be worth it just said just to shove buildings in there I mean Manhattan is one of the most pricey real estate places on the planet Earth and yet in the middle of it they have this big open public park area that anyone could just wander around sit by a tree it's really a very very smart move yeah it is it is nice la should have something like that is the air pollution do you know if the air pollution what's like in Manhattan it's terrible it's terrible in Manhattan to LA I think they're probably equally sucky but the

10:45thing that is bothering me is not just the air pollution in terms of like the exhaust fumes and the exhaust the smells but also the brake dust you know when I first started paying attention to brake dust and I would always clean it off my wheels but I would never think about it like oh there's dust that's on my wheels I would think I was just dust and he wasn't then some was explaining to me no that's an environmental hazard that you're breathing in if you live in that environment when you're around you know if you're on Broadway and cars are constantly hitting their brakes around you there's a puff of that brake dust as getting in the air with every pump of the brakes Wow and you're just taking that disgusting stuff into your lungs yeah the particulate matter that's really tiny and stuff yeah I mean cuz that's like mesothelioma right you're taking in the particulate matter from

11:35like asbestos mm-hmm so in the same you'd think there'd be similar mechanisms may not gonna lead to mesothelioma but that there would be similar mechanisms at play that are like you know damaging organs good to visit not good to stay that's what I think I mean my I've no desire I don't even like living here I think there's too many people yeah it's I definitely don't like driving here like it's like it's it's really bad how much is the difference between here and we're in San Diego San Diego is definitely bad during you know typical times people are there going to work or coming coming home from work but it's it's it's nothing like LA I mean LA is orders of magnitude worse for now if you're not doing clinical research you could do a lot of your stuff somewhere else have you thought about being somewhere else so my family's in San Diego and it's really nice having my mom

12:31in particular because she helps out a lot with my son so that I can get some work done too right which is important and I really didn't we could live you know a little bit further out I mean there's there are places like that are still within like 40 minute drive to like you know downtown San Diego beaches and stuff that are that are nice and so that is something that we are considering we require definitely quiet or no matter what it's gonna be you know cuz we live there's just it's a busy road and there's fire sirens and you know my son likes the fire science but there there have been times when there have been loud motorcycles and he is like concerned like you can see you looking like it's you know so so it kind of worries me as well but definitely it's it's it's important to get away from that it's like a goal for sure now before the podcast started

13:24you were telling me that you wrote a 30 page paper on the carnivore diet it's not a paper well it's I definitely spent a lot early pages I thought about it for a long time and yes there's 30 pages of thoughts and references well you stunned that this became I mean this is a very recent thing yeah people are just eating meat well at first when I was mean I think Dan told me about it like a couple years ago even like and and I thought there's no way I was like I just ignored it I don't have time for that so yeah I definitely dismissed it when I when I first heard about it but it's definitely been something that has you know gained a lot of traction yeah you know disturb you that it's gained traction well I definitely have concerns you know I think that the the most important question really is what is attracting someone to try the very restrictive diet you know that potentially could be

14:35dangerous without published evidence or any sort of long-term studies and things like that so I think that the first question really is well why are people doing this and so looking on the internet and try to like read about people's anecdotes it seems as though a lot of people are drawn to it because they have some sort of autoimmune problem and so they try this diet and it improves their autoimmune symptoms and I see that seems to be a real common theme mm-hmm in at least if you if you look in the blogosphere and stuff like that so that's I think kind of a good place to start where it's like well you know what are people doing this for and then so that's that's kind of an important question and so so further reading about this diet it sort of sort of think about well okay well what's going on it's really important when you have like something that leads

15:31to an effect to understand the mechanism because the mechanism is you know what's leading to to this effect and so if you can do something that's potentially not so dangerous or risky then understanding the mechanism will help you because then you can find other ways to do it right and so if you look at at published Studies on people that eat low carb high protein diets what's pretty common is that there there's changes that happen in a variety of different endocrine factors like you know you're less insulin that's changing your satiety and hunger hormones leptin and ghrelin and people become more satiated and they actually eat less and this has been shown in multiple studies so people actually eat less when they're having a higher protein diet which makes sense to you because protein is more satiating as well and also there's also been Studies on what's called food

16:25habituation we're basically so habituation is when you're constantly exposed to the same stimulus you sort of have a decreased response to that stimulus where there's been intervention trials where people are given the same food every single day both non obese and obese people versus people that are given the same food once a week and the people that are given the same food every single day they just they start to eat less calories so they start to eat less naturally sorta to calwork restrict themselves so I mean and that's it's kind of like a dietary monotony a sort of thing so I think there and you know if you read and people out there on the blogs talking about this diet they say I like I'm eating less I only eat twice a day I'm fasting you know that's people are talking about that as well mm-hmm so I think there's published evidence to kind of explain that and also there's

17:11you know people saying yeah I eat less so that's an important point because one thing that's really known to affect autoimmunity is calorie restriction and fasting like it's probably one of the most well known technologies that you can intervene and have improvements in autoimmune disease so some of that has to do with the fact that you can sort of reset your immune system there have been animal studies and human studies a lot of this done by dr. Valter Longo at USC he's done some prolonged fasting in animals and also there's been sort of like a fasting mimicking diet done in humans which kind of a very low calorie diet that sort of is meant to mimic fast and those have shown that you basically kind of cross over because fasting is the type of stress you cross over into this like stronger stress response where you're not only like cleaning away all the gunk inside the cells people talk

18:08about a toughie G lot when they're talking about fasting you clean away things like damaged you know pieces of DNA protein aggregates things like that mitochondria that are damaged get cleared out but you also sort of start to clear away in terror cells through a process called apoptosis and in animal studies what's been shown is that if you do for example a 72-hour fast you can clear away about 30 percent of the immune system and and and and replenish it with like brand-new healthy immune cells and literally like organs shrink ones during the fasting and then they like re-expand because you're activating stem cells and you're you're you know basically replenishing all your damaged old cells with new ones well vaulter has shown in in these animal studies also autoimmune cells tend to be selectively killed off and replaced with non on immune cells she's also done a clinical study pilot

19:02clinical study with people with multiple sclerosis doing this fast mimicking diet for one month sorry for one week and their symptoms improved also a ketogenic diet was done side by side and ketogenic diet also improves symptoms of autoimmunity so those both were done in humans so I think that you know understanding that you know some of these mechanisms that are at play and not fasting itself and Keller chrous trick ssin both have been shown to improve autoimmunity you may be tapping into something there by eating less that's one possibility in addition there's been instead clinical studies and humans where they were done they were basically fasted for 24 hours every other day for 15 days so they had like a total of seven days of fasting and these were also people with multiple sclerosis and there's profound changes in the microbiome that started happening and this was in line with

19:53basically having you know a lot of anti-inflammatory cytokines basically producing mewn cells that are really important for preventing autoimmunity called T regulatory cells or things like that so that's another really important thing to consider is you know the microbiome because the microbiome has been linked to autoimmunity in multiple multiple studies I mean it's been linked to arthritis it's been linked to multiple sclerosis it's been linked to other diseases like Parkinson's which is not really autoimmune but and the point of this is that you know again understanding mechanism and realizing you know there's other potential factors that could be leading to in effect right it's it's actually the change is the microbiome are really important because there's actually been a few animal studies which have led to phase 1 phase 2 and phase 3 clinical trials that have

20:44been done in humans so humans with multiple sclerosis were treated with minocycline and antibiotic and they've been basically the antibiotic was shown to improve symptoms of multiple sclerosis and because there there's good bacteria and bad bacteria that have been linked to autoimmunity and getting rid of getting rid of bacteria you know the bad bacteria is going to probably lead to improvements and that's what was shown first in the animal studies and then in human trials so humans taking with the multiple sclerosis taking minocycline for two years so basically they had improvements at delay the onset progression of the disease but then after two years that those improvements went away probably because you're wiping out the microbiome and eventually you're also getting rid of the good bacteria and so that things are going to catch up right so you're not just you may be

21:31getting rid of some of the pathogenic bad bacteria with the antibiotics but eventually like you're also getting really good stuff so long term you know you may not have those same improvements and that and that's very interesting I think it's a really important point to understand with with something like you know changes very profound changes in the microbiome when it comes to someone just eating meat so one thing to keep in mind with with the microbiome is that basically bacteria really are good at adapting to their environment that's why antibiotic resistance is such a big deal and when you there's been human intervention studies when you take that goes from a high-fiber diet to a low fiber high protein dwarf vice versa you get changes in their gut microbiome that happen within 24 hours so within an hour you actually start to have doubling of populations of bacteria and within 24

22:25to 48 hours you actually start to lose other so basically other bacteria start to die off and this is at the species level it's really hard to change the phyla the phyla is more linked to long-term dietary patterns eventually you can change phyla as well but it's been shown that people that go from a more high fiber to a high protein diet they have changed their microbiome and these changes are a lot of the microbiome you know bacteria that are fermenting a variety of fermentable fiber start to leave and you actually start to get bacteria cropping up that ferment amino acids so the amino acids amino acids simple sugars fats those are mostly absorbed in the small intestine but some of them make their way into the large intestine and there's a whole you know group of bacteria called the putrefactive bacteria and they ferment amino acids and some of these species of

23:18putrefactive bacteria have been linked to colon cancer they're much higher in colon cancer patients animal studies have shown you know causal links where they can basically aggressively cause a polyp to form a colon you know tumor and that's because these bacteria are making things called putrescine and cadaverine which are damaging their genotoxicity DNA inside your colon cells and so people that are typically eating like a omnivore typify where they're eating protein and they're also eating fermentable fiber if they're eating the fermentable fiber that's facilitating the growth of lactic acid producing bacteria it that limits the growth of petrol active so if you're if you're you know bifida bacteria lactobacillus s mutants as thermophilic those strains of bacteria or lactic acid producing bacteria which you'd be getting if your I mean you'd be facilitating the growth

24:12of if you're eating plants fermentable with fermentable fiber you're going to limit the growth of future factus because they can't grow with lactic acid so it's not like you know it's not a huge huge concern but the question is what happens when you're only eating amino acid we're only getting amino acids right you know so is there a long-term so if you're if you're if you're killing off potentially some of this pathogenic bacteria and you're having this effect with a positive effect what's going to happen long term it's not known I mean this diet I mean hasn't really been studied at that level there have been a few people that have have anecdotal stories about doing it for 10 20 years that are online but it's very difficult to track you know I mean it's it's that you have take them at their word for it they've eaten nothing but meat for 20 years they feel amazing

25:00but there's not very many of them there's you know there may be more out there but it's in terms of like what I've come across articles you know just social media profiles people have talked about the positive benefits of it it seems to me that most people that are talking about the positive benefits are talking about it within a one and two year window that's that's what we're really dealing with a lot of Shaun Baker dr. Shaun Baker who is probably the leading proponent of it or one of the poster boys of it along with Jordan Peterson and his daughter Michaela Jordan Peterson his daughter Michaela they're different in that they were dealing with severe autoimmune issues his daughters had two joints replaced but before she was 18 she had her well she had her ankle replaced before she was 18 and I think she had her hip replaced shortly after that and Jordan

25:52has had some pretty severe autoimmune issues and depression within with both of them those things were cleared up but as you've talked about multiple times before on this show depression has been linked to disorders in the gut biome right and this is something that you feel like may be contributing to this as long as as well as both of them also got very lean Jordan lost a ton of weight he's back to the weight that he was when he was 25 years old and I've eaten with him and the guy eats he eats a lot but it's a lot of meat just like he'll eat like a 30 ounce steak you know which is just crazy it's a crazy amount of meat but I don't know how many times he's doing that a day I don't you know yeah I think you know going back to the the point it's like there are other you know understand the mechanism is important and there's a lot of potential confounding factors right

26:45and that with any anecdotal data is extremely important to consider I mean right people can't even neutral you know scientists nutritionists just people can't even agree on the best diet because a lot of these epidemiological and observational studies which don't establish causation have an enormous amount of confounding factors and it is freaking it's so hard to like control for that I mean just as the perfect example we've talked about this before in the podcast but you know the vegetarian versus people that eat meat one of the really large studies that was done and dr. Volta lunga was part of that study looked you know at all cause mortality and cancer mortality and it was lower in vegetarians but they decided to take the meat eaters and say okay what about within this group the people that are healthy meat eaters are people that are you know not you know

27:35not unhealthy so they're not obese they're not sedentary they're not smoking the Nayaka not excessively drinking alcohol those people when they took out that can those confounding factors the mediators have the same mortality as the vegetarians you know same cancer so confounding factors are so important and that with anything with anecdotal you have people that are exercising like crazy exercise has also been shown to change microbiome independent of diet in a positive way what you're actually producing more of the bacteria that are producing things like lactic acid so and fasting does the same thing and so you have people that are fasting so you know it's not like you can't do other things if you're on that type of bed to to sort of help with the microbiome but I think again if there is a way you can do you know if there's a way that you can get these

28:22benefits without having to do something so hyper restrictive and we'll talk about I mean I have concerns for that we can definitely get into that but then you know why not try that and you know the thing with like for example doing like a prolonged fast you know once once a quarter once every couple of months depending on how severe your your issues are I mean there's there's been benefits shown with that like an aging like you know so people that have been put on this I see mimicking diet they have improved biomarkers of aging they increase their lean muscle mass I mean so like I said in animal studies and you can't directly translate the animal studies to humans because rodents have a really fast metabolism and if you fast them for 48 hours they lose 20% of their body weight where humans only was like 1 or 2% I mean that's like clearly you know yeah yeah

29:10so you can't I mean it's obviously you can't completely translate or anything that's done the fascinating rodent to humans but they're definitely organs are shrinking and then literally regrowing after the fast is over like it's like this rejuvenation process you know and it seems as though selectively damaged cells are killed in fact this whole like there's a whole dr. ball to Luongo showing that cancer cells are really really susceptible to dying when they're when you do like a prolonged fast or even a fasting mimicking diet and he's he's he's shown this in animal studies and he's done a couple of clinical studies where patients with cancer were treated with standard of care but before their standard of care treatment they were fasted for up to 72 hours and what happens what he's shown in animal studies happens is that because the fasting is a type of stress all your

30:01healthy cells increase all these stress response pathways they make more heat shock proteins they're increasing antioxidant production pathways anti-inflammatory they're doing all this really good stuff in response cancer cells can't do that they're like screwed up and so they can't activate those stress response pathways so it ends up killing them so what you end up having it happy HAP happening is that when you're giving another genotoxic stress like chemo or radiation your healthy cells become more resistant to the damaging effects of the radiation and the cancer cells become more sensitized to the death and so what he's shown in his pilot studies in humans is that basically the humans that were true that were that were treated with the standard of care I think it was chemo and also fasted they had less neutropenia which is the loss of like neutrophils which is the side effect

30:47because you're losing normal healthy cells so they had less of that happening less milah suppression so I mean anyways it the point is that I think if you can find a way to get positive benefits you know with having to do something so risky and potentially dangerous and unstudied you know you know I mean unstudied in a really scientific way you know I'm trolling for contract compounding factors and all sorts of long-term I mean just all of that it's really important well this is just comprehensive breakdown that you just did is something that's really lacking from a lot of discussion of this carnivore diet and from the proponents of it it's almost like a lot of them are going into it blindfolded they're like look it seems to be working so I'm just going to stick with it but again when you're talking about most people's cases you're talking about one year maybe two

31:40years sometimes even less where they're having these benefits and as you're saying it's entirely possible that they're setting themselves up for some potential long-term damage it is it is it's definitely possible and again at the end of the day there's no data there's no data so you can't say for sure right there's no data but I have concerns and we can talk about those concerns for sure I would like to but you know the thing is understanding mechanism and like you said going in blindly I mean you have a hypothesis and it's like okay your hypothesis is all plants are bad yeah that's what I keep hearing and it's like well that's a hypothesis but what about all the other things that are potentially happening while you're doing this diet unless you're fasting more your microbiome is changing like dramatically changing and those things all have been known

32:28multiple studies have shown in humans and animals mechanistic detail to have benefits on autoimmunity on aging in general on brain function I mean all sorts of things you know so its mechanism is so important you have to realize I mean that that's the whole basis of science understanding how the world works around you understanding how your body works mechanisms like you have hypothesis and it's very and I understand it's like someone experiences something positive it's like well this must be it this is that'll be all and but you have to realize it's complicated you may be doing something long-term that potentially I mean it really hasn't been studied yes so well that was one of the I mean I had Jordans daughter Mikayla on who has had some pretty dramatic results from this carnivore diet but she's giving essentially nutrition consulting to people but she

33:28doesn't really have a background in it and she's in she doesn't have the information that you just distributed like what you just said to all these people listening and that the way you're describing the the mechanisms and other benefits of fasting and all these different various things that are happening inside your God and all these different things that are happening with healthy cells and and damaged cells with fasting and that this is mimicked by this restrictive diet and then this is all absent from the dialogue this is all absent from the disease this is one of the things that's disturbing the most disturbing for me it's like I get that they're seeing positive results again I know I could I deny that they're receiving but when they start saying you know plants are bad and there's a you know like my friend Chris he's always talking about the war on carbs he's

34:15seven is really he's also got Chris bell he's got autoimmune issues as well he's at both of his hips replaced before he was 35 and you know severe arthritis and he is leaner than he's ever been and benefiting greatly from this carnivore diet but you know he's he's like he talks about it like he uses hashtagwar on carbs you know and he doesn't eat salad he won't eat greens like he thinks greens are bad for you I'm like man I don't not sure that's correct I think it's so important what you're saying and there's a researcher online that I've been in contact with his name's Kevin bass and his bass or bass Vass not sure which how to pronounce it but he also brought up this possibility that it could be calorie restriction that these people are dealing with and that this essentially some of the same mechanisms that are the the positive reactions from fasting then you're

35:14dealing with here and I'm very happy that you're saying the same thing yeah I I think that is one very strong possibility and that something you know there's lots of hypotheses here and you know given all the data and there's lots of positive data about eating plants yes you know so it's really hard that's one hypothesis isn't that seems to be the one everyone sort of gravitating to you know if someone's also wanting to reduce their their glycemic load and all that I mean there's their other I mean eating just a modified paleo diamine I eat something like a modified Paleo diet where it's like I'm eating I'm eating fish I'm eat meat poultry and a lot of leafy greens and cruciferous vegetables now you can do some nuts you know or you can do a ketogenic diet like they're like I just talked about the study that was done looking at the fasting mimicking diet in

36:07humans with multiple sclerosis sclerosis there was a the same in published in the same paper there was a study there's study that put patients on ketogenic diet for I believe it was three months and it improved symptoms of autoimmunity as well was it comparable yeah yeah so you know the ketogenic diet a modified ketogenic diet is also you know there's also concerns with that something not everyone responds very well and you know the micronutrient deficiencies have been a concern but you can actually eat a lot of vegetables green and good ones that are there low and lazy make soap screams my concern exactly my concerns are much much less yeah and there's it's been studied a lot more I mean at least there's been lifespan studies and animals oncogenic diet where it's like improving you know the way they aged it's improving their cognitive function brain aging extending their lifespan so

37:00you know if people are looking for in addition to you know wanting to like help with their autoimmunity issues you know there's also if it's like well I also just don't want to have a lot of insulin response I want to lower my glycemic levels and things like that it seems like a much better option than than doing something completely unstudied right and so um you know I think that's a really good place to start and obviously not disregarding everyone's anecdotes and of course is also the placebo and nocebo effect which are very real I mean extremely real real that's why a lot of drugs don't ever make it to market is because they can't beat placebo you know where it's like people think they're gonna get a positive response from something they can right and the opposite is true people think they're gonna get a negative response for something they can there's gotta be a

37:51way to market the placebo effect in a pill form great I think so and what's interesting is that genetics determines that there's snips gene it's basically single nucleotide polymorphisms where changes in the sequence of DNA and a certain gene makes it function a little differently well the gene that's really important it seems to be really important for either whether or not you're going to have a placebo versus nocebo isn't controls dopamine the degradation of dopamine so people that are really likely to purpose the able response have more dopamine in their brain whoa it's called compte the snip in the genes called compte people that have less dopamine are more subject to the nocebo and this has been shown in dose dependent manner and intrapreneurship intervention trials randomized control in humans and not it's not in diet there's been Studies on diet as well showing like nocebo effect

38:40so people think they have a gluten sensitivity which I do think that's a real thing I mean I'm not saying non-celiac gluten sensitivity I think there's enough evidence that's showed that does exist however there was like this great study that was published four years ago showing people that thought they were you know having gluten sensitivity issues they were they were randomized and none of them were given gluten they didn't know they thought maybe there's a chance I'm gonna get the gluten I don't know I'm being randomized of course they had a negative response they had distended bloating pain but there was no oh so the nocebo effect is also real and that's something to keep in mind as well if you think you know i'm gonna have a bad response if I eat this variance you can feel like on drugs there yeah it's definitely themselves yeah it's definitely a real thing I

39:29think blue CBIZ much better right I think that's a great like it's a great thing that that exists especially if you could figure out a way to trick yourself you're changing dopamine levels that affects your immune system I mean it talk to a chiropractor who was banking on that he was doing something called zone healing and more I pressed him on this the more he basically said well if you believe it it works yeah I'm like okay so you're saying that it doesn't work unless you trick this person into believing that it works so you're a trickster this is what you're doing you didn't want to go that far but that's essentially there's no real scientific basis to this idea that you press on someone's back and fix the roid I absolutely think that placebo accounts for a lot of that stuff yeah and again Reiki all that all of it and I think that um the the genetic

40:18snips involved really they do play a role is there a diet that increases dopamine because there's that you can increase serotonin with HTTP and L tryptophan which converts to HTTP 5htp what is is there anything that ramps up your dope you know what does in that prefrontal cortex is fish oil in fact schizophrenic some schizophrenic schizophrenic patients are prescribed a really high dose because they lack their dopamine's lower in the prefrontal cortex and this is sort of associated with a lot of the negative paranoid delusional sort of when you say high-dose what are you talking about Oh like 6 grand 3 anywhere between 3 to 6 grams a day and what is a normal dose well if you look at if you're talking about normal in the sense where what's typically used and like a randomized controlled trial it's like 1 1 1 or 2 grams what is recommended people like USDA or what would you

41:09recommend like there is no recommended nothing it's not no because because what's recommended is the so there's a plant version of it alpha linoleic acid because you can convert that into the Marine ohm at the marine omega-3 fatty acids DHA and EPA that's the one that's recommended so it's like the what you essentially need right so right so that's the one that's recommended but is there concern about potential heavy-metal poisoning x' when you're taking in fish oil or is that all that stuff they'd know how to filter that stuff out it's definitely purified out and I mean it depends on the fish valve I mean yeah the fish all you're getting your your fish oil from but there's there's and there's some international fish oil standards organization that a lot of different fish oil companies are tested by them and they show like they're all there arsenic mercury PCBs dioxins like all

42:04those you know potentially harmful compounds and they also look at oxidized polyunsaturated fatty acids for the looking at total oxidation and things like that so that's a really good site to use to look at whether you know your fish oil Brandon do you get yours in the pill form or do you do like Carlson's where you get in the bottle and take spoonfuls of it so I get mine in the pill form because I have a friend that makes it in Norway and he sort of has convinced me that it's like really good so I really like his fish oil and he doesn't make it in the liquid form but I do so I take I take about like five or six grams a day I take a lot Wow five or six grams yeah and I'm taking like a high dose DHA because um it gets into breast milk and I haven't 100% wing to my son just yet how many pills is five or six grams it's like oh that I take yeah so I'm taking six six pills a day

42:58yeah so you pills a gram yeah Wow so um that is high dose it's really high dose it's really it's a really good fish it's not he he's working on getting it available in the United States I think that's supposed to happen like in the next couple of months mm-hmm but I used to take Carlson's Carlson's was a bottle mm-hmm yeah that's what I take yeah so you take a lot right yeah so yeah but I'll take three tablespoons I thought that was a lot how much is then yeah we'll have to talk about my my Alzheimer's omega-3 publication but we still have let's keep going I'll put that aside because I actually have a good friend whose dad has Alzheimer's and I sent her your clip from your Instagram from yesterday how cool you know yes yeah yeah we will I'll send you my paper it was just accepted and it should be out online this month play sometime this month but okay so okay my potential concerns with

44:02carnivore diet yes um you know I think and I'm sure I mean I know this I've seen it all over the blogosphere you know the the micronutrients and you know they don't really matter they're the RDAs weren't set for carnivores and all this all this stuff that I've read but I think to start out like understanding you know micronutrients are essential about 30 vitamins and minerals that are really important they they do run our metabolism they are involved in making neurotransmitters they're involved in you know pulling calcium out of our arteries and bringing to our bones they're involved in all sorts of things not people when they hear the word metabolism they always just think about you know food you got yeah and it's like metabolism refers to a lot of things and there's about 22 sorry there's 22 percent of all your enzymes in your body require a micro nutrient to function and

44:51this is repairing damage from DNA all sorts of things really important and and so there's about 30 of them that are essential you have to get them for your diet because you don't make them in your body and if you don't get them from your diet it can lead to you know health problems and death actually so so that's that's kind of you know what micronutrients are are das so recommended dietary allowance those have been set a variety of different studies are used so there's randomized controlled trials non randomized controlled trials there's depletion repletion studies there's balance studies looking at how much how long how much of a micronutrient it takes before you start excreting it there's cross-sectional studies and there's case studies and this is a collaboration between the United States and Canada and some European countries as well so a lot of experiments are done

45:42to figure out the recommended dietary allowance the first thing that's done is the the estimated average recommen rectum intake so that is done by basically looking at any population and going okay how much of this micronutrient do we need so that 50% of the population has adequate levels the other 50% will be deficient so look there's a bell curve and so it's like literally in the middle of the bell curve and then the RDA is set from that to standard deviations above and it's supposed to make you know about ninety seven point five percent of the population gets enough so that's how the already I set for each micronutrients different the experiments are done are different to look them so there's a few concerns of course with an all me diet with particular micronutrients because you know micronutrients there's a lot of you know certain micronutrients that are

46:35concentrated in meat and there's a lot that are concentrated in plants and you can find some of the ones that are more concentrated and meat in plants most in most cases but it's much better to get it from the meat and in plants there's it's much more concentrated you know and you can find it in some amounts in me but it's much you know it's a lot easier to get it from the plants so one of the of course the micronutrients that's a concern is the vitamin C of course right that's the one that everyone talks about so vitamin C is a really important cofactor for what that means a cofactor just means that it's binds to an enzyme and helps it work it's important for making collagen it's important for converting dopamine into norepinephrine which is important for that you know flight or flight response it plays a role and making carnitine which is important for using fatty acids form it

47:25for energy and then it's a course in antioxidant it also plays a really important role you know in neutrophils so neutrophils are a type of immune cell when they're activated when you have any sort of bacterial exposure virus things that can even come from the gut you know like LPS leaked out from dead bacteria that are dying in the gut neutrophils get activated and they soak of vitamin C because they release a bunch of hydrogen peroxide which damages the neutrophil itself and so the vitamin C sort of prevents that from happening I plays a really important role in cell cell integrity and things like that so that the there's a variety of ways and vitamin C is transported into the cell and I see reading on the internet a little bit of misunderstanding people following the Connor poor diet seem to think that because they're not getting any their glucose levels are low that

48:21they're getting more vitamin C and so so vitamin C also called ascorbic acid goes between two different states or score big acid is the reduced form which is the antioxidant form but it goes also into an oxidized form so it's kind of going back and forth it goes through about four cycles about the oxidized form it's called dehydroascorbic acid and there's two ways that you transport vitamin c you absorb it the gut epithelial cells is transported into a variety of tissues in the body ascorbic acid goes through sodium dependent vitamin c transporters those are not dependent on glucose there's no competition for glucose they that's that's how vitamin c gets into the cell and most cells actually transport vitamin c in that form with the exception of red blood cells which don't have that transporter they use another transporter called glucose transporters or glute and that one does

49:14glucose does compete interestingly dehydroascorbic acid binds much better it's actually tightly more binds to the transporter than glucose but in conditions like hyperglycemia like type 1 or type 2 diabetics they actually don't get vitamin C in the red blood cells and it leads to leg vascular problems and stuff like that so so um it's an interesting hypothesis that maybe if you're having you know less of a you know blood glucose levels are really bottomed out maybe there may be that there's some salvage pathway you're able to help get vitamin C in the oxidized form is going in some other cells that usually doesn't go in or whatever something like that it's an interesting hypothesis which is there's no data on right but the experiments that were done to choose the RDA for vitamin C were done the more recent RDA so that it changed back in like to that

50:082000 or 2001 or something it's about 90 milligrams a day for men and 75 for women they were there were depletion repletion studies so men were were given about less than 5 milligrams a day of vitamin C each item with their diet and this was about a 6 months to it study there when a metabolic award and it was determined that it was kind of unsafe to keep to keep going so so basically they started the repletion where they started giving these men vitamin C at different doses and vitamin C follows like a sigmoid 'el S curve so once you kind of deplete someone of their vitamin C when you give them for example 30 milligrams it isn't really enough to kind of go both it doesn't really raise plasma levels much you have to get up to like 100 once you get up to like 100 then you actually start to excrete vitamin C but before that you're just your body's holding on to everything

51:04you're not excreting anything 200 milligrams was maximum bioavailability and then after that you start to ligand decreased bioavailability near excreting a lot of vitamin C so the the new so the scientists that published this paper Mark Levine at NIH recommended that the RDA be set at 200 milligrams but it was set at 90 which is literally right before you start to excrete which was 100 milligrams that data along with the neutrophil data there was some neutrophil data that was looked at you know how much vitamin C was it important to because neutrophils stopped it up to prevent that hydrogen peroxide induced damage and so that's kind of how the RDA was set now the question is in any with any RDA like you know the the important thing to consider is well the RDAs are set to prevent acute disease but what about promoting optimal health you know like that's really important like how

51:58much of these micronutrients do you need throughout a lifespan to to you know to maintain optimal health and age well so this is something that's really important because a lot of enzymes that require micronutrient for preventing short-term disease something that can kill you like there's also enzymes that are required to prevent you know things that are associated with aging like DNA damage so if there's only so much of a micronutrient around which where is it gonna go is it gonna go where the you know it's gonna preventing a damage which doesn't make a difference until five or six decades later or is it gonna make sure you live on to pass on your genes and you know reproduce and so my former postdoctoral mentor dr. Bruce Ames sort of proposed this whole and he has published a couple of foundational papers supporting this idea which is he calls triage theory so he's saying that

52:49basically he thinks actually a lot of RDAs are too low and that you know optimal RDAs will it account for you know how much is needed for these long term functions so that's really important to consider with the vitamin c um you know it's it's it's really a small amount that's needed to be used as a cofactor for you know an enzyme for you know collagen production you actually don't need that much and it was not like studies were done years ago with that establishment like ten milligrams of vitamin C was enough to prevent scurvy which can happen when you're basically don't have enough vitamin C for collagen production and and even that's kind of questionable because back at the time when those studies were done it was before really good analytical assays were available so you know the assay that was done to measure various things were it was lots of things could confound so it's me you

53:43may even be less maybe more maybe less it's kind of unknown so um you know that that that is something to consider as well as the fact that basically there's a lot of biological variation with vitamin C requirements and this has been shown in other animals that also require by them and see like guinea pigs so like if you take one hundred guinea pigs and this is you know this is published back in like 60s or 70s like there was like tenfold variation in how much each of them required vitamin C they required even though they were given like yeah so ten tenfold yeah so there's like huge variation in the half-life of vitamin C and in their transporters and you know so this has been shown in rodents as well rodents make vitamin C in their liver but the same things been shown and actually back when the the European sailors were getting scurvy and dying of it only about fifty percent only about

54:33half of those sailors got scurvy the other fifty percent didn't have any symptoms know how under ward diet guys not getting scurvy well that's that's what I'm saying I'm saying that you know for one it doesn't take much right right they're getting some of it from me yeah yeah so so the thing you know if it's it doesn't take much to to maintain the enzymatic function of some of the some of the enzymes involved in making collagen and that you know it doesn't take much for that but the question is about what about you know all the host of other factors yeah and the neutrophils and you know your body stores like orders of magnitude more vitamin C than then then it needs for that for the it's function as a cofactor and it's like you know why does it do that is it just because maybe during scared food scarcity you want and wants to make sure it has enough or is there are you know

55:23the antioxidant functions and other functions really important or other unknown functions so I think the vitamin C you know there's certainly you know getting enough to prevent scurvy and there could be biological variation in that as well right you don't need much to prevent scurvy and again you're dealing with a very small sample size you don't know how many people are actually on this diet or supplement according right how many of them are supplementing and why wouldn't they be right yeah exactly and you think that a lot of these issues could be prevented with just multivitamin and supplementation well I mean I think the best thing is to get it from food wash well yeah yeah you know so that the there's another one that's potentially risky and that is vitamin E which kind of vitamin E helps recycle vitamin C and vitamin C helps recycle vitamin E and vitamin E actually most

56:12people think of as an antioxidant which it does it prevents a lot of oxidative chains it's kind of breaks the chain of oxidation but it also is really important for maintaining cell integrity and that's how the RDA was chosen for that one so um how does it do that so it's it's important for inside the cell membrane so it's a it's important and Alex at inside the cell membrane and so it's preventing a lot of oxidative factors that are happening just from normal metabolism normal what's happening you and I are doing it right now do you know damage that damaged our DNA it also damages the the lipids in our in our cell membranes and so and I so if I didn't mean II it plays a really important role in the integrity of it and so the experiments that were done for choosing the RDA for vitamin E were two and a half years long and men were given three milligrams of vitamin E so

57:02the RDA is 15 milligrams so they were given three and after two and a half years they started getting hemolysis of their red blood cells because their red blood cell the membranes of the red blood cells weren't being maintained very well after two and a half each of two and a half years it's a long time for you know for this to show up and so for whatever reason it was decided that having hemolysis happen lower than twelve percent is okay twelve percent was the cutoff and so that when they did the repletion studies it was 15 it was actually 12 milligrams and then for the AAR and they went up to standard deviations and found 15 basically the RDA was at 15 so the question becomes well alright so vitamin e you can you know you can get some vitamin E if you're getting some egg yolk and butter and if you're eating some fish but you're not gonna it's really hard to get 15 milligrams from

57:50from those sources and and then if you're eating that what about all the other stuff you have to eat to get your other you know so what is a good source of it not so really really the best source like almonds like 100 grand 100 Rams and almonds would like give you your RDA a really good source so so the question becomes well okay you know you know what happens if I'm only getting 7 milligrams a day is it going to take you know 6 or 7 or 8 years before my cell membrane integrity is compromised more you know what you know so it's just there's a lot of important questions to think about you know and it's like these RDA is you know that I would even argue they're set to low in some cases where you're they're really trying to just prevent things like you know that are like hemolysis of the red blood cells and you know so what about all these other long-term effects

58:40you know enzymes that are involved in DNA repair for example and another one would be like fully folate you can get if you eat you know if you're eating like 150 grams of a like cooked beef liver every day but like who does that you know I mean and if you're not doing that and you're eating you got to eat like your 48 sardines to get your vitamin E and you got it you know so it's like it's not easy and you know I'm not saying you can't get you know some amounts of it but you may not be getting the RDA and so you know folate plays a very important role in actually making new DNA you know if you don't have Foley you essentially incorporate something from RNA called uracil into DNA and all your like DNA you know polymerase is and stuff for cruising along DNA and see it and they make a nick in the DNA and it literally you know it's a it's a nick it's like in your in your DNA and if you

59:27have it DNA is double-stranded so if you have it on two ends the DNA what you do because it's really important to make one of the nucleotides thymine then you know you're gonna have a double-stranded break and actually my former postdoctoral mentor dr. Bruce Ames published a study showing that if you animals and make them deficient in folate or give them really really low levels of folate it causes strands and their DNA just like being irradiated like you compare them side by side it was the exact same thing and then he published a study that was with humans showing that actually humans that are getting really low levels of folate also had a certain type of DNA damage called micro nuclei you know so the question is well you know if I if I'm getting only so much folate you know is is it's something happening to my DNA am I getting strand breaks the same goes for

60:16magnesium I mean you can get magnesium if you're eating you know this it's just then what about the full day and then what about the bottom inning but you know so it's really hard it's really hard to do that and DNA damage that's something you can't measure you're not gonna go your lipid panel isn't going to tell you that there's no consumer test available there was a few years ago as a start-up try doing it but it's really hard because there's if you're sending blood samples you know to a lab to be tested for DNA damage I have done on many DNA damage experiments on humans so clinical studies I was involved in dr. Ames lab and I've done studies kinetic studies where we took blood out of a patient measured DNA damage immediately or froze it down or we let it sit on a bench for 30 minutes 2 hours 4 hours overnight after 2 hours all the tons of DNA damage should have come up because

61:08it's being exposed the you know oxygen and all that is creating basically DNA damage so anyways the point is is that DNA damage isn't something you're going to measure you don't feel it and you're not gonna feel it I mean it's happening in us right now we don't know how many but it is we have enzymes that are repairing that damage and those enzymes require magnesium we're getting enough folate to make sure that that damage isn't happening and again you can get a good amount of folate liver is one of the best it's a really great source but you have to eat it every day and you have to eat like you know I guess 150 grams of livers not that much but you have to eat it every day you know so it's it's just really important to consider these you know the fact that these micronutrients are important they have long-term effects I mean the two and a half years it took to

61:53show the the hemolysis and rub let's of two and a half years so what happens if you're getting a modest amount not quite three milligrams but you're getting twice that or maybe you're getting nine you know what happens seven years from now like you don't know it's and it's important it's your health it's important so I think that so those you know and there's a variety of other Macanese you can also get if you're eating a lot of like a stomach lining tripe so it's called tripe yeah I mean so it's not like you can't get it but they are not most these people that are carnivore diet or just eating beef right and especially if the people are working a job where they go into office 9:00 to 5:00 or they're traveling them it's really hard to eat all this yeah coolest like you know the the Inuits were eating things like raw like they're eating raw liver at all like raw whale blubber and

62:40spleen spleen is a good source I mean you can get vitamin C from spleen I think heart so there's some organs vitamin C when you cook it 25% of you know it's lost so that's why a lot of the muscle meat and stuff it does start out with vitamin C but when you cook it I mean if you're not eating it raw then you know you're definitely it's negligible here's one young guy who is a carnivore diet proponent that seems to be approaching this in a much more comprehensive way he's really big on organ meats in particular liver and many other things and he's talking about how these organ meats will be excellent sources of a lot of the vitamins that people are concerned that you're missing from vegetables you do you think that that it's possible and it means spleen I guess for vitamin C yeah but like what about just liver or kidneys or things along those lines I mean what what are

63:36you going to be deficient in if you go the organ meat route I mean I think that you know if you're the the magnesium and magnesium while you're out there magnesium but you can get I mean it's you can do it right I mean you can do it but it seems very difficult and I don't think most people will do it and you recommend of course getting all this stuff from food if you were going to get magnesium fencing right but is it feasible that you could just supplement with multivitamins and and cover all your bases I don't know I mean I think the same goes for vegetarians I think they should you know they do supplement they take b12 may take iron which isn't necessarily I think it's much better to take iron get iron from food it's not as bioavailable in a pill form well also the viability of disrupt other things like whereas iron from food doesn't just depends on the ratios of

64:39other things like you know disrupt disrupting the transport of other transition elements and things like that it's isolated also yeah something about that also there's bacteria in the gut that that can be pathogenic and that use iron but it seems to be only in supplemental form that that's I'm not saying you should never supplement I supplement iron and throughout my third trimester but I just think that you're gonna potentially run into more problems with that you know iron does it does come from red meat correct yeah I mean irons very bioavailable when it's bound to hemoglobin versus vegetarians just ate red meat you know there's there's there's I think that that there's a whole other host of micronutrients that vegetarians are sure there but it's not so I think you know there's also other important reasons to eat the plants instead of doing just the organ meat and

65:37also just doing the supplements as well mm-hmm you know in some of those the reasons have to do with the fact that we microbiome is really important so you're getting you know the fermentable types of fiber that are really important for you know growing all sorts of commensal bacteria you get like we don't know what's going to happen with you know someone that's only just eating meat long term particularly with like I said the future fact of bacteria and all that I mean that's just the word huge impact of backfire yeah that's the the putrified there's putrefactive bacteria also that are like on corpses and stuff in fact that's where I think the cadaverine comes from the work they produce something to a verrine right that's what I'm thinking must be where true future and cadaverine sounds the Scout sounds like farts sounds like they actually are yeah they do the the

66:25picture I think their responses that yeah it makes but you know so that's another reason and then the other part the other important thing are the phytochemicals the the therapies you know polyphenols flavonols flavonoid all these things that are present in plant the humans were we evolved eating we evolved eating them you know so so the the it's during throughout human evolution you know humans were stressed on many levels one they went through moments of food scarcity where the fasting came in I mean that's important right now we don't have that we can get food all the time anytime right so so that was an important stress that humans have evolved with exercise aerobic exercise right that's another thing I mean you had to you had to move to get food and run from predators I mean so we we evolved exercising now you can so many people don't do that we also

67:23evolved eating plants and meat I mean we're omnivores so we have these basically all these pathways that are activated when we eat plants and from certain compounds and plans into insect anti feed ins they're there they're in plants and when humans eat them they basically activate a variety of really really important stress response pathways a lot of these pathways get activated by exercise and fasting as well so there is a lot of overlap between them but I see a lot of people you know on the on this carnivore diet talking about how they're so bad for you and if they would take the time to actually read studies like human studies where people are given a lot of these insect anti feed in compounds things like I said iodine a it's like sulforaphane you know curcumin resveratrol anthocyanins and just tons and tons of them you know they would see that there's beneficial effects that

68:18happen and there's a lot of mechanism for why that is you know so I mean the sulfur Fein is one that I like to talk about and there are there's tons and tons of human intervention data where people are given they're cruciferous vegetables or they're given broccoli sprout broccoli sprouts are a really great source cruciferous vegetables broccoli cabbage fermented cabbage - Brussels sprouts you know all that stuff so broccoli sprouts have liked anywhere between ten and a hundred times more a lot of that work was done by dr. Jed fakey friend of mine he's at Johns Hopkins very great scientist does a lot of research on Sulphur f---ing but you know if you look at intervention trials we were talking about your pollution like there's an intervention try there's more than one showing inhumans showing that if you give humans broccoli sprout extract for seven days they start to excrete benzene

69:07and acrolein benzene in air pollution 60% on day one like they start excreting in their urine like you're getting rid of that and that's largely because sulforaphane activates a variety of enzymes one called phase 2 detoxification enzymes which are important for getting rid of potentially harmful compounds it inactivates phase one biotransformation enzymes which are enzymes that are able to like take a pro carcinogen and turn it into a carcinogen so you know there's intervention trials and humans that it's you know men that were given broccolis products extract lowered their their their biomarker for prostate cancer by by like eighty six percent or lowered the doubling rate at about eighty six percent you know so this is like this is important their studies showing that humans given for example two different studies showing that humans given 300 grams of Brussels

69:57sprouts a day one they increase a really important antioxidant in their plasma called glutathione by like 1.4 fold and they decreased oxide of DNA damage in their blood cells DNA damage like we were just talking about they decreased it like by 30 percent or something like that two separate studies Brussels sprouts and I like I see people like you know talking about the carnivore diet and how sulforaphane increases DNA damage and they like reference this in vitro study where they dump sulforaphane on cultured cells in a dish it's like you know what else is gonna do that how to recycle ik a means from the cooked meat you're eating like you know so so if you dump something at you know high enough concentration yeah it's gonna it up yeah you know but we're talking about humans ingesting if you were to actress non-stop and not rest it would be toxic if you were too fast and not stopped it

70:50would be toxic like you know so so so so how some of these pathways are working is that they the dose that they're given you know eating it's it's almost impossible to eat the kind of dose that it would take to cause severe damage and you know what you would get sick you would know you like wait a minute like so so I mean I think that using that as an excuse is really first of all they should read the studies and there's so many more studies it's it's been shown recently to increase glutathione in the brain human intervention studies humans that were given sulforaphane extract increase it in their plasma and in their brain glutathione is one of the major antioxidants in the brain it plays a major role in traumatic brain injury brain aging I mean you this is important like this is a possible therapeutic intervention it's been trying to randomized placebo-controlled trials to

71:36improve autistic symptoms and adolescents open-label trials it's been shown to improve autism and children autistic Sims and the children I mean there's just study after study after study and I'm just talking about the human ones and there's more there's also lots of animal studies where they're feeding a mega doses and and there's like positive benefits there's been studies you know feeding feeding humans large doses like something equivalent to like 70 or 100 grams of broccoli sprouts which have a lot more sulfur roofing than like Brussels sprouts do and there was no toxic side effects and liver by roid that's one concern people do have if you have hypothyroid sulfur frame can compete with iodine for transport into the thyroid I don't think that's usually an issue it certainly doesn't seem to be an issue in healthy people but you know iodine is found in seafood I mean you

72:22know it there's their sources of iodine you can eat so maybe someone with hyper thyroid might want to make sure they're not eating like ton like you're not like you know kale smoothie after kales move the other kales mom be like MIT you know make sure you know just you're having your Brussels sprouts with your with your elk meat or whatever and you know I don't think it's a problem so you know it I do get a little I see I see like you mentioned dr. Shaun Baker he's like he put out a video about like he mentioned me my name's talking about how I only talked about in vitro data and I'm like dude go watch my video for my interview with the expert at Johns Hopkins we're talking about human studies right the in vitro data is coming from what the opposite that it that you know the the damaging effects its in-vitro Donna culture there's two things going on there's one there's a

73:07real cursory examination of data where they in this confirmation bias and there's the combination of the two of those things they find one thing that's sort of kind of vaguely supports what they want it to support and then they run with it and they talk about it as if they're experts very dangerous yes and this is one of the reasons why I'm so happy that you're talking about this because you can give people a real comprehensive understanding of all the different things that play and one of the things that I get from you when I talk to you about nutrition is it's mind-boggling how many different factors are going on simultaneously in the human body when it comes to nutrition absorption when it you know in the various stages of the body and and how it can vary with with different people and there's so much going on so when someone just sorts talking about vegetables are toxic like oh Jesus

74:01Christ have you just go look at the scientific data like yeah I want it to be toxic this is what's crazy it's this is an ideology that's akin to veganism it's really it's a it's a just another side of the same mindset it's almost like a religious mindset they said not me I did say it look I'm a meat-eater yeah you can't accuse me of being anti meat but I side I eat more vegetables I think than I eat meat I certainly it's certainly like right up there and I'm not giving them up I think that's stupid I just it doesn't make any sense to me and I like them there's this there's this weird push and you know if you look under hashtag meat heels there's all these people you know telling these stories about how they lost all this weight needed all this disk ba-ba-ba their health benefits and did it but they only want it to be because of the consumption of meat only

75:05they think that it's because of the singular aspect of their diet and the fact they've eliminated everything but they're not they don't do any studying of elimination diets they don't do any study of the prolonged benefits of fasting and all these different things that you're talking about which I think are there these are all factors in this really complicated thing that's going on that most likely has something to do with their gut biome and their immune system right absolutely I mean those are two major confounding factors like so major you know it's it's important it's just important to approach this like a science you know and and not like a religion like you said where you want to believe something and so you just find you know this this study that I also see circulating a lot around that why plants are really bad to eat it's like they're there they're there means that the insect

76:00anti-nutrients or pesticides it's from my former mentor okay dr. Bruce Ames who spent his entire career like advocating micronutrients from vegetables and from me and from fish okay it's like so ironic but if you actually read the paper not only does it say it doesn't you know these these insect anti feedings like sulfur don't cause cancer but it also goes has a whole section on heterocyclic amines from cooked meat so if you really want to use that paper as an argument right to not eat plants then maybe read the paper and realize oh it's also talking about heterocyclic amines as well the point of the paper was like I'm getting a little emotional I get the point of the paper was basically not to worry about like some of the amounts that you're being exposed to with some of these natural you know ants insect anti fetuses that are found in plants and some of the cook things in meat and as

76:55well as some of the pesticides that are found and synthetic pesticides basically that they're in such small amounts so that was kind of the point of the paper was back in the 90s and but I just think that it's a little hypocritical to use a paper you know as like and literally it's like I mean it's like proliferated everywhere that's like I see this paper all the time yes it's like well did you read the paper because it has a whole section on on the insect anti feeds from coffee which a lot of people drink and also me what what there's that thing that people do where they do have a I have a joke about it in my act about I read a study that said that sperm can cure depression in women and I slammed my laptop shut and I didn't read another word I'm like I found the cure but this is this is what you write the title yeah this is essentially what these people are doing they will read or

77:54risk oftentimes don't even read but recite from someone else's reciting it in a video who didn't read write which is what's going on with a lot of this stuff and this is what I'm concerned with I keep seeing all these people like hey I'm gonna try the carnivore die hey try the carnivore die die telling you it's amazing and I'm just sitting here shaking my head I'm like this doesn't make any sense like I don't why would you want to eliminate of a massive source of bioavailable nutrients like and and then when they're talking about the negative consequences of consuming vegetables that there's you know different sort of toxic elements I do remember you talking about how these stressors can actually have a positive and beneficial result when your body reacts to these stressors yeah that's exactly how exercise works it's exactly how fasting works exactly how heat

78:44stress from the sauna worked and it's how these phytochemicals I'm calling them phytochemicals just as like a generic you know category but they're they're these they're compounds that are made by plants to ward off insects and and and we evolved eating them and they activate amazing stress response pathways in in humans in our brain you know in multiple in blood cells I mean it's just human intervention trials showing this so you know you're gonna miss out like you're we evolved with we're supposed to be stressed by exercise by fasting during the time restricted eating like that's we're supposed to do that and we're supposed to eat some plants I think they're trying to accomplish they're trying to simplify something that's incredibly complicated and they're doing it with this sort of religious fervor this is it's very strange and I can feel it when I talk about it where people get upset

79:35they're getting upset at me like I'm criticizing Jesus or something it's very weird and again I'm not a vegan right neither lots of me yeah you know I think you and I have had conversations about the importance of meat yeah so you know it's it's it's a religious thing it really is it's the same sort of mindset that allows people to get just rabidly Republican or anything else like fill in the blanks whatever it is you know look there's a there's a it's just a thing that people do there's for the longest there's two different camps in jiu-jitsu when you're something crazy yeah there's ghee and no ghee Aggie is the it's a kimono this white or you know multi-coat you could wear it different colors now but it's there start out with white and a lot of people learn their jujitsu grabbing on to the ghee you know like sort of a judogi or you know karate ki and utilizing it as part of the

80:36grappling technique and then nogi came along and what nogi is they use rash guards they don't grab the clothes and they concentrate on control of the body with under hooks and over hooks and gable grips and things along those lines and it became a religious battle between G and noogie and I remember sitting there watching this and is a problem because like people would get angry what camp you in bro and I trained both I have a black belt in the key I have a black belt no-gi trained both of them I think there's benefits to both of them but there was this weird thing where you were supposed to choose sides it since alleviated and people realize how preposterous it is but for a long time like four years the jiu-jitsu community was split where people were angry at people who are the gay or angry at people who were no key like my friend Eddie Eddie Bravo who teaches no gay

81:24people were angry at him for teaching a system of jujitsu that didn't involve a certain type of clothing it's the same mindset people just want you to believe what they believe only and they get rabid about it they get crazy and I'm seeing this with this carnivore diet and I think there's a psychological aspect of it to it that you were talking about when in terms of this placebo effect then I think they feel like I've never felt better I'm this carnivore diet I'm doing chin-ups I'm running around the block like when you read about everyone feeling better it make one in I want in I want you on this carnivore diet and then there's also well if you are doing this as opposed to the standard American diet I think you have the same sort of response that you have when people are talking about the positive benefits of the vegan diet I think if you have a pot if you

82:14have a vegan diet in comparison to eating chips and fries and soda yeah you're gonna feel amazing and people talk about it it's just like they did the carnivore nation yet and they want you to do I mean there's P I'm seeing the same patterns that I see with vegans where these carnivore people are putting meat and their screen name you know I'm meat-eater Mike you know carnivore Karl there are they're crazy people they're doing the same thing the vegans do with like I'm the vegan warrior I'm carnivore Karl and you know you you plant eating poison eatin you don't even understand what you're doing your body because I like plants you can't you have to pick a camp I'm not picking the camp I'm gonna come before I like my paleo ish diet and I actually I'm probably gonna try a little bit of keto I'm gonna die man experiment they're a little bit too so there's some

83:05great positive cognitive benefits for that yeah I've really experienced that it's it's hard for me because what knocks me out ironically what knocks me out of ketosis the most of my diet is fairly ketogenic except I eat too much meat yeah I just I crave it I'm always a guy well I need I think I need a lot I don't know maybe I'm just full of but I also have a lot because I you know I hunt elk a sheet of 400 pound animal you gotta get quality meat it's the best yeah and I'll eat you know a pound of it so I'm eating like who knows how many grams of protein it is it's something insane but I mean I don't think it's a placebo effect cuz I've been doing this for years now I feel pretty good you know and I'm we're doing this fitness challenge now that's what this thing is me and my friend Bert Kreischer my friend Tom Segura and Ari Shaffir we for the month we have to see who burns the most

83:59calories and gets the most MEPs this is this is my zone thing and I'm planning on killing those guys planning I'm literally having them try to die keep up with me sober October yeah October it's going on right now there is their hot yoga and sauna involved I'm doing it those are just gonna try to like go run around the block but I'm doing the 15 hot yoga's plus I'm doing all sorts of the create I did two one-hour or hardcore cardio sessions yesterday and then today I'm gonna do kickboxing for an hour and a half tomorrow I'm gonna do an hour and a half a yoga in the morning that I'm gonna run at night you definitely should eat more more yes I'm planning I want these guys to break that's all I'm break them but Bert's getting posting stuff on his Instagram today I touched a bird about some song he was real into the sauna yeah she's really into vodka and cheeseburgers that

84:54actually causes you to excrete micronewton and magnesium to excrete jokes that's probably the problem he's goddamn hilarious when he's drunk it's a part of the problem ya know again balance I think this is a very important conversation to have because I think there's a lot of people that are enticed by the magic of this carnivore diet and I think I'm so happy that you are the one that can because you can do it in such a scientific manner and just sort of illuminate all the various problems and sort of explain why they are experiencing these benefits because even brilliant men like Jordan Peterson is a brilliant guy he's just accepting the positive benefits of this and I don't know how far he's looked into this yeah you know and also it's important like the the fact that the nocebo thing experiencing bad things you know also things when you change your microbiome

85:50and you're going a long period of time of just eating meat I mean it vegans that like eat meat or people that are on a low-fat diet that eat fat they experience negative effects I mean because there there are microbiome changes that you occur and can lead to discomfort and those things will eventually go away but that I was also summing to consider like so there may be a nocebo on top of actual things that are short-term and that it's not just people that eat meat and then all of a sudden eat some plan so it's like I knew it you know there there changes that it takes some time a little bit of time in the microbiome that may be happening because you know definitely vegans talk about the same thing people on a low-fat that you eat a high fat diet say the same thing I mean so you know some someone's got to be right well maybe everyone's right you know maybe

86:34there's a mechanism right microbiome changes and everyone's right right your body adjusts dependent upon your diet but yeah and that's it's been shown I mean the microbiome does change depending on your diet and you know if you're if you're eating a low-fat and then going to a high fat diet you know there's you're you're making bile acids and things like that and you know if you don't have a microbiome that are resistant to that you can start to have microbiome being killed off and then it can cause inflammation you know the going from the plane I mean you're you're basically selecting for if you're eating a bunch of protein you've got a lot of future fact of bacteria maybe less of the other you know maybe it takes some time to be able to like ferment some of those you know complex carbohydrate fermentable fibers and stuff so I think that there's the

87:14mechanism I mean it's not even easy to figure out mechanism but there's usually a mechanism and explanation for these four things and you know sometimes you have a hypothesis and sometimes it's right and sometimes it's not you know it doesn't mean what you're experiencing isn't real it just means that you don't you didn't understand why you were experiencing you thought you did but you didn't Mikayla Peterson said that when she first got on the carnivore died she had diarrhea for six solid weeks Wow that would uh that would no pun intended shake me loose Wow I'd be like yeah after about two weeks of like I'm kind of tired my pants for her it was worth it in comparison to the the negative effects that she was having on her immune system I mean yeah you might want to talk to her about the fasting I mean trying that if she's open minded you know at the end of the day it's hard

88:10when someone's experiencing it is hard and and it is hard when they that's just you know yeah I get that but it also is important to realize that this is there it hasn't been proved through you know it she's experiencing what she's experiencing because she's caught all plants out and you know so at the end of the day you know there there is no data so you can't say definitively but I mean there's a lot of data on you know why you should include some plants at least and and again if you're doing this for an autoimmune there's a lot of really good data that fasting helps like and not only helps it helps you age like I'm gonna start doing just like you know some fast like a couple times a year once I have completely weaned my son how many days so it's so a prolonged fast take but technically in humans according to dr. Valter Longo he he thinks that has to be

89:01more than 48 hours so you can do like a 72 hour fast and my in-laws have been doing they've done like a couple of three three and a half day fast and they're getting all sorts of massive improvements in a variety of biomarkers you know lipid and glucose and inflammation you know a lot of things I know carnivore people are talking about as well but could be getting the same thing and fasting I'm you doing this are you limiting the amount of exercise you do some people do it depends on how you feel I mean you know you certainly I think that if you're doing if you're if you're not eating any food and you're just doing like a water fast you certainly it's it could be more dangerous and should listen to your body and if you feel really sick or your heart's racing I think they just you shouldn't eat I mean something that like I wouldn't you know just what as opposed

89:46to the fact there's a fasting mimicking diet where people can this is something Valter Longo has published on in humans and study humans as well as animal data where it's like a very you know like the first day it's like a thousand calories and the second through fifth day it's like 700 calories and then they're they're broken up where it's like the first day it's like it's very much a low sugar low protein high fat modest carb kind of diet so what are the present they consume like nuts and not yeah he well he's got like a packaged kind of thing that like can be prescribed like a physician can prescribe it to a patient you know but you can you can sort of make your own as well with you know whole whole foods you know like some yeah but you have to sort of keep the calorie cap so make sure you're not like getting too many calories that's kind of important as well and you do that for

90:38five days what is the standard avocado standard size avocado contains of calories okay so yeah you can do like like you could definitely do like an avocado or if it's like the whole day and then some people have sort of done modified versions of it as well like where it's a little more ketogenic like the they've adjusted the carbohydrate and fat to be a little more of the ketogenic and like I said the the study that was published in parallel with fasting mimicking diet study The Fast and mimicking diet they did for three months but it was only one week that did the fasting mimicking diet so that the other you know part or the three months they were eating a Mediterranean like diet the other people and which was in Germany they were on a ketogenic diet and they were on it for three months and they experienced improvements as well so um there's definitely ways to tweak it and actually

91:29the out getting to the Alzheimer's the the guy that I interviewed dr. Dale Bredesen he he is published extensively and also has clinical a lot of clinical experience where he's trying to understand the mechanism of Alzheimer's disease and I'm getting to this for the ketogenic it's gonna come back eventually but so he he tries to understand a lot of the underlying mechanisms for Alzheimer's disease and in his clinical experience he sort of sees there's subtypes of Alzheimer's where you you can get like patients that have a really high inflammatory where they've got lots of inflammatory biomarkers they also have these high plasting blood glucose and they're little like you know high fasting insulin but then you can get the same sort of metabolic effect where you have people that are kind of on the insulin resistant spectra but without inflammation there's that subtype and

92:22then there's like another subtype or it's like it seems like a big environmental component like toxic stuff people are being exposed to and that leads to a much much earlier diagnosis an Alzheimer and sort of different phenotype but um he has this really aggressive and very thorough protocol that's like on the individual level where people you know he has tons and tons of biomarkers that are measured one is the fasting blood glucose so should be less than 5.5 actually gets hba1c which is a three month mark or a fasting blood glucose should be less than 5.5 fasting insulin should be less than seven he's got your license he reacted protein should be less than 0.8 and then he has a variety of other inflammatory biomarkers that are also measured and a variety by the things he looks at a lot of different micronutrients he looks at homocysteine homocysteine is really important because

93:10there's publications showing that if you lower homocysteine it can act and act he actually published this in one patient it reversed the hippocampal atrophy which is kind of amazing so there you know it's not really known exactly what the mechanism is but so that's something he looks at and he does this diet this like diet this whole lifestyle change I mean people improving sleep exercise and he gives him all sorts of vitamins intitial but on top of that he's this diet that he it's kind of like to lower the inflammation and improve the insulin sensitivity and blood glucose and all that where he puts them on a diet that's kind of like he calls it keto flex but it's kind of like a ketogenic diet modified ketogenic diet but a lot of the the fats are coming from like plant sources so like avocado nuts olive oil he treats meat as a condiment but and and basically he's getting improvements

94:03like with with this type of diet lowering inflammation proving all sorts of metabolic things so it's really it's really interesting I've read a lot of his studies because he publishes a lot on Alzheimer's disease and mechanisms you know and he's got a book out as well where it kind of goes in-depth about it so it certainly seems very interesting that he's actually been able to not only like delay Alzheimer's disease but reverse it and this is how he has published a couple of published studies where people were able to go back to work and actually in some of the in some cases their brain atrophy kind of stopped and it started to reverse where they were like growing more neurons Wow yeah so and I talked to him about this and so the publication was like the original one I had read which got me interested in his work in the first place when I saw that I was like holy

94:51crap this is amazing it was only on ten patients it was kind of low he says now he's got like 50 more that there he's getting ready to publish and then he's you know got this whole protocol where there's like just he's got like thousands of patients where they're like kind of treating this sort of individual way they do genetic testing blood testing and all that stuff as well so it's very interesting because it's you know he's basically showing the important interaction between diet lifestyle and potentially genetics and this is kind of where my paper comes in because there's a there is a gene that increases the risk for Alzheimer's if you have one copy of it so you get two copies of every gene from one from mom one from dad if you have one copy of it or increases your risk for Alzheimer's disease by like two to threefold if you have two copies it could be anywhere between ten and

95:39fifteen fold so it's like really it's called apoe4 it also increases the the your chances of having a really poor outcome if you have any type of TBI and people with that that allele and have TBI multiple TBI is definitely are much more likely to come down with some sort of nerve disease so but not everyone with it gets it so there's like this like what's going on here you know there's there seems to be this clear you know gene environment interaction going on and so I was really interested in this because I found out I had one of these alleles and of course I got me really concerned one of the things that's really really important is sleep because sleep is the one of the ways you actually clear away amyloid plaques from your brain your brain actually swells during sleep you squirt cerebral finals fluid into your brain and you basically clean out a mold like plaques and a

96:33bunch of other gunk that's you know built up car wash for your brain when you sleep yeah and I talked about this with former guests here's dr. Matt Walker we talked about it a lot he's like him and I were to say it was awesome I I just talked to his own mind blower I love I love it I really love the conversation I had with him so we talked about this in detail because basically that is one of the major ways you you clear amyloid plaques but the other way is through an AoE mediated mechanism and apoe4 does it like 20 fold less efficiently than someone that doesn't have it and so they rely on sleep and there's all sorts of studies with a pre for showing sleep is a major modifiable risk factor for Alzheimer's disease if you have a avoid for but you're getting good quality sleep you have like the same risk as someone that doesn't have it and so I was like gee you know

97:24of course I was thinking about this the entire time that had my son and I was like not sleeping for months but anyways the other thing that I looked into in my publication this is where the another sort of diet gene interaction comes in is that there's all sorts of clinical studies showing that people with April before benefit from fish eating fish where they can basically have improved pathology in their brain have improved symptoms of dementia but when they take fish oil if you take fish oil and give it to two people with dementia only the people without April we for benefit for some reason the April reef where people aren't benefiting and if you look into the literature animals that were given human April before versus human April III the DHA doesn't get transported across the blood-brain barrier very well with 8.4 so it's like what's going on there's some sort of transport defect

98:17and DHA in the brain is really important it's been shown to play an important role in human studies but a lot of animal studies and human studies has been shown to to increase amyloid clearance it's in humans it's been shown to decrease tau tangles and also it's really important for glucose uptake into the brain because it regulates the transporters glucose transporters what was the second thing tau what tau tangles so tau tangles form inside of neurons and they disrupt a process that's called microtubule transport which is where basically it's the it's the neuron system for transporting fatty acids all sorts of goodies energy to the to the synapse where synaptic transitions happening tau tangles basically disrupt that whole thing amyloid plaques form outside of neurons in the extracellular space and they can disrupt synapse formation they're thought to form as a protective

99:14mechanism against viral fungal or bacterial infections so it's kind of like you know that that's the reason why they're forming but it's just a matter of clearing them out and also how your how your brain is able to like deal with the amyloid plaque burden and April before is not able to deal with it very well so the DHA transport thing is basically what I what I publish is has to do with the interaction between different forms of DHA and Buie there's two different ways that DHA is transported across the brain one is when it's like in a free fatty acid form it's bound to albumin and it requires an intact blood-brain barrier specifically the outer membrane of the blood-brain barrier needs to be intact and and because it goes through passive diffusion well if there's a disruption in the blood-brain barrier then the gh a isn't going to be transporting very well

100:01in that form and it's been shown that April before actually disrupts that very thing the outer membrane the tight junctions that bind the outer membrane of the endothelial cells that line the blood-brain barrier and so it's it's quite possible that that is why DHA is not getting into the brains very well in April we for carriers there's another way to get it in and this is through a transporter that but that uses something called lasso phosphatidylcholine DHA which is a phospholipid form of DHA it forms from phosphatidylcholine DHA the transporter is called MF s dua and it basically takes the DHA and flips it down across the outer membrane into the inner membrane of the blood-brain barrier so it bypasses that outer membrane and then it gets transported in so if you look at animal studies that you delete that transporter like 60% of the DHA does is you know not getting

100:55into the brain if you give giving animals DHA humans with with a variation in that gene that makes it less less active have get neurodegenerative form of neurological disorders in neurodegenerative disorders so it's obviously very important you know to to get DHA into the brain through that mechanism well it turns out if you consume DHA in phospholipid form you actually form more of lyso phosphatidylcholine DHA and that's because basically where the DHA s are on a phospholipid they're in multiple carbons and and one of them can escape lipase and the pancreas and so basically you can form more of it okay but so phospholipid form DHA is in fish but it's really abundant in fish roe like super abundant like thirty to forty seventy percent of DHA that's found in fish roe which are fish eggs a variety of different kinds are in phospholipid form and you you consume that stuff you that's the

101:57reason why and I'm talking about it i order mine so you can like I get salmon roe I like the salmon because it also has asked to xanthine in it which ends do you order it like is it bottled or canned or something I order its frozen frozen yeah it's frozen I order it but you can go into like a Japanese store you can get flying fish roe you know that which are much some people prefer those because they're smaller and the texture they don't like the salmon roe like the Iker if you go to like a sushi restaurant and you get like the like fish eggs that come in like the seaweed they're bigger they're bigger and they kind of nice to use those for bait yeah some people don't like them because it's like squish it and it's like liquid company great for catching rainbow trout rainbow trout yeah rainbow trout eats salmon eggs so I'm so I'm basically you know that's

102:43that's one way to get more phospholipid form but also DHA consumed in like triglyceride form which is what a lot of fish oil is also forms it also forms DHA lie so phosphatidylcholine but you just need more of it so it's also possible that some of these clinical trials showing that you know fish oil failed with because they were using a look like the dose they were using was 2 grams so maybe you need six grams maybe you need four is there any negative benefit or the negative consequence of consuming too much fish oil well I think you know it certainly depends on the type of fish oil that you're consuming I mean if you're consuming oxidized fish oil and certainly not very good but why would it be oxidized if it's last if it's too old if it's too old and depending on how they ice how what the isolation process was but yeah too old for sure things that are sitting around purification

103:33process is very important implication yes yes very important and like I said there's that fish oil standards program you can look up and there's a variety of different fish oil supplement brands that are on there the other thing is like there was just recently a randomized very very large randomized control trial published on four grams of one of the omega-3 fatty acids found in fish and other marine organisms EPA they were given four grams a day for five years 8,000 patients randomized placebo-controlled different countries and it reduced and actually were patients that had hyper Trek high triglycerides and also were on statins it lowered cardiovascular disease by risk by like 28 or close to 30 percent or something like that you know so that was a high dose and that was five years long pretty pretty a long follow-up and it was a randomized placebo-controlled study I think it was

104:29called the vitals it vital it study but you know the other thing that I think people are worried about with really high dose fish oil is the the potential for blood thinning because it does inhibit thromboxanes and prostaglandins and leukotrienes and things that are important for like you know clotting you know I've been taking a really high dose for like over a decade you know a fish oil I've been taking not always 6 grams but I've been taking a high dose for quite a while and how often you get your blood work done well recently I haven't been getting it done very often because I'm the pregnancy and breastfeeding and stuff where changes things I try to do it like it ideally like doing it once a quarter but like a couple times a year for sure that's what I try six months that's that's good I think I think like you know sometimes you can get super obsessive by doing if you're doing it

105:23like once a quarter you know but for people that are not healthy I think doing it once a quarter until they start to get healthier get it all dialed in right do you supplement with niacin at all no I don't supplement with niacin but I'm thinking about doing the nicotinamide right beside you know niacin can it that's been shown to like lower LDL but get hired it the stuff that causes the flushing right the stuff that causes the flushing but also I think that there were some problems with it like disrupting insulin something with insulin secretion I don't recall it's been like so many years since I've read those studies but the nicotinamide rye beside forms nad so the niacin is a precursor for for nad which is also increased during fasting we were going to get nad IV injections we still got to do that Jamie that company contacted us they there's two ways of doing it one it

106:17takes eight hours or - it takes like 10 to 15 minutes and it's like excruciating yeah like the pain yeah they push it yeah they push it through and it's just your your guts feel like they're on fire for like 10 minutes I want to try that just to see about it that's the fast one yeah because it's not happening I'm not sitting around for eight hours but apparently there's some significant benefits to IV versions of it and doing a Ben Greenfield was on the podcast talked about it pretty much it pretty in-depth yeah he's a big believer of it yeah I couldn't find I actually tried finding some published studies on the IV version I really couldn't find any item stuff - I'm pretty sure yeah you you recommend it yeah I subscribe to that I get that stuff every day so that's and there have been published study it clinical studies and he does on that I take that stuff every day I like it

107:10yeah but I guess but the NAD by intravenous method it's supposed to be a much more potent form of it and the people that I know that have tried it like the guys that on it they get someone will come down to their the on it labs like a couple times a month and a bunch of the employees will sign up and get zapped so I wonder why some of these guys - and certainly gathering data and sort publishing because it'd be nice - yeah it would be to see some data on that yeah I wonder why it you know a lot of times it's hard to get funding for some of these things you know you know who knows I mean it'd be interesting to see if it has some of the similar benefits at taking something like nicotine of my tribe aside has yeah where if you take like a high enough dose you can you can raise your your nad levels like dramatically how many of those at least a.m. tablets are you

108:01taking on a daily basis I stopped taking them just right now while I'm breastfeeding I'm just always on the cautious side or I was taking I think I was taking 250 milligrams I think each pill is no mmm okay I don't I don't remember you know before I forget I did want to ask you about it boom only dialing circling back to this whole carnivore thing one of those suggestions was that it isn't is is it possible the people that some small percentage of the population would actually be allergic to a lot of plants I mean there are people that can be allergic to certain components I mean there's there's the whole nightshade you know family what I think some people can like they have allergic reactions to and I think that people with nightshades being tomatoes tomatoes and then I also people with like got issues have you ever heard of anyone being allergic also gut issues

109:02would predispose you to being well because you know there are other things in the plans that can you know so things people like to talk about like lectins for example and you know lectins there they are they are in a lot of plants but they're much more concentrating seeming like a legume like a bean MN and they're inactivated with heat but typically most people don't have reactions to to selectins possibly if they already have some sort of gut barrier problem that could sort of elicit a reaction but a lot of the data out there is like in vitro where lectins are used to stimulate the immune system in vitro in fact I've used lectins before to do an experiment but you know so I think that yeah there's there certainly food allergies or definitely a possibility and they do exist so is it possible that someone will be allergic to both cruciferous vegetables and you know a bunch of other

109:58like celery or cucumbers or things along those lines I don't know you know if they're allergic to them maybe I think that people can have you know with like a variety of different issues like small intestinal bacterial overgrowth and their intestines you know people that are that are sensitive to like FODMAPs those things so woods fodmap toes alright like i can't remember but the basically people people can be sensitive to them and they're usually people with gut issues like right so it all boils down to gut issues boils down to gut issues and I in that there certainly is some cruciferous vegetables like cabbage or something can affect people they can feel bloated and stuff like that yeah absolutely but I do think that sometimes resolving those good shoes will resolve that problem I don't I don't tend to think everyone's like someone's gonna be allergic to every

110:53plant I don't know though I mean you know anything's possible right right but no literature there's no there's no come across any hmm but I haven't done an in-depth search for that specific thing so is it fair to say that when people are describing this and they're saying that it might be possible that there are a small percentage of population where there is a small percentage of the population that's allergic to plants that really what you're dealing with is a small percentage of population that has a significantly impaired gut biome that is finding benefit to eliminating these plants this strict elimination diet being on this carnivore diet which also has calorie restrictive aspects to it and even fasting restricted aspects to it that this is why they're experiencing this positive benefit and that perhaps one of the ways they could fix their gut biome would be some sort

111:47of prolonged fast or something along those lines to try to fix the problem at the root source instead of maybe what the carnivore died would be is like some sort of a dietary band-aid right and I think that the study I was talking about the 15-day in a minute faster where people with autoimmune disease were fasted for 24 hours every other day mm-hmm they had changes in their microbiome that were in line very interesting changes it they actually grew bacteria that are you know very important for producing things like butyrate which makes you know helps make T regulatory cells it's a signaling molecule that helps your immune system produce more T regulatory mean cells they don't something that comes from state of ketosis as well well this yeah exactly they were fasting yeah and it's the thing that was so interesting and it's a question I had had for so long was like what happens

112:43the microbiome when you don't eat like is it to start you know are you getting like a selection for Meuse and degrading bacteria which are degrading a certain glycoprotein that lines the gut and you know and the thing that was so interesting about this study was that they did this like meta genomic analysis and they found from fecal samples that he that the G like in them within the existing microbiome it was increasing the production of like ketone bodies themselves and that was fueling because your your gut cell like your gut cells and also a lot of the beneficial bacteria like things like butyrate lactate propionate acetate you know these are the some of the short chain fatty-acids beauty rates like the big wanted the gut for the gut like gut cells like like 80 or 90% are like using butyrate but fasting was like increasing all these ketone bodies so it's kind of

113:30really interesting because for one it helped and it and it basically increased the diversity of this beneficial bacteria was very interesting i wouldn't have guessed that have there been nothing have there been any studies on consumption of exogenous ketones to benefit the gut biome not that I'm aware of I mean do you think that that would mirror it anyway that's a very interesting question because most of the exogenous would be like a beta hydroxy butyrate ester I don't the the question would be how similar is beta hydroxy butyrate to butyrate right computer rates what what we're talking about and that's a very interesting question I don't know yeah I mean that would be or even what what's happening during during like a ketogenic diet as well right you're making you have a lot of circulating beta hydroxy butyrate is that good does that get to the gut right

114:26you know so that's that's another interesting question yeah because it is an interesting way to hack your system is that these exogenous ketones like ki Gen X or that's one that I use for a few other companies that make these they do put your body in a state of ketosis yeah no I've definitely tried I've tried one from from HB MN the beta-hydroxybutyrate ester and I I it definitely like gives me energy but the other thing I really liked was the mental effects the thing the the thing about it so couple there's a sort of a double-edged sword because I feel less anxious when I take it and this was this is getting me up into like you know 4.5 millimolar beta hydroxy butyrate like an hour mm-hmm um I feel Aleksei chicks and more foot more in the present like I'm more present and not like you know a million things ahead whereas like sometimes my brain goes right so I felt

115:25like and and and this is something that like like Dan observed with me you know throughout this more than once I started using it I started using I didn't use it today but the reason why I didn't use it today so I started using it like for podcast or Bing talks or anything like and the reason I didn't use it today is because the flip side is it dramatically because I'm not in ketosis I'm not on a you know cue genic diet it lowers my blood sugar levels like really dramatically and this has been published you know there's like mechanisms that are trying to be explored to understanding why that is and possibly as a therapeutic treatment for type 2 diabetes like that but so if once the once the ketones wear off which they do after a couple of hours I crash because my blood glucose is low and I don't have the ketones there to compensate right whereas if I was already in ketosis then

116:19you know it wouldn't matter cuz I'd already yeah so so yeah it's really interesting the the effects on the brain I don't you know it's something that I noticed and I certainly like repeatedly noticed what would be the mechanism though it'll allow you to be more present that's it seems so strange that that would you know less anxiety yeah I mean what would cause that I don't know I mean there's you know possibly the glucose is being spared in my brain for other things that's you know because the now the ketone the beta-hydroxybutyrate being used as a source of energy and this is being used I mean glucose bearing does occur a lot of times in the in the context of making more glutathione because that's glucoses can be used for energy or can be used to make glutathione and the pathway that it does that through a pathway called the pentose phosphate shunt and that pathway

117:12takes glucose and make something called NADPH which is then used which is necessary to make wood a thigh own so I don't know maybe there's some kind of something because you know what else does it for me so for a fain Sofer frame gives me major anti-anxiety effects and like cognitive like I feel broccoli sprouts consume a gross it does affect glutathione in the brain about them anyways it's all hypothetical what about consuming those exogenous ketones with glutathione have you ever tried that I didn't know those existed I mean trying oh you mean with the broccoli sprouts the broccoli sprouts you mean yeah well you're saying glutathione increases glutathione in the brain well glutathione supplements the glutathione first of all it gets destroyed in the gut but like even if you were to get it into your your bloodstream there's no transporter for glutathione

118:02to get into cells so you want to make I mean you can get the precursors to make it and you can increase like the way broccoli sprouts does it is increases enzymes that make it you're making more and so that's how you do it so when you so one of the things that glutathione does is it helps your body process alcohol correct I don't I mean it's a very bland oxidant wasn't that what Mark Gordon talked about liposomal glutathione yes yeah liposomal glutathione helps your body with the the processing of alcohol it's a very very strong antioxidant antioxidant and so I mean but it gets destroyed in your gut so if you're taking it yeah yeah and also glutathione doesn't so it doesn't get into yourself there's a video about it from this podcast oh yeah there you go yeah that was something about the processing of alcohol um now so if how it was so the best way to get it would be through so

119:14far Fame so from broccoli sprouts cruciferous vegetables and then your body would produce more well so from this the the human studies that I've referenced one was 300 grams of Brussels sprouts a day increased it glutathione plasma by for one point four fold the other study more recently that showed an increase in plasma as well as in the brain that was a sulphur that was a broccoli sprout as strike that was given I don't think they have the dose on my Instagram I think I don't remember I'm chopping my head videos but um so that's one of the ways I know of one of the most powerful ways I know of to increase glutathione and you know basically in humans so I don't know how much 300 grams of Brussels sprouts is so what would be a good idea I mean pregnant from wrong would be a large dose of like a large plate of Brussels sprouts with or broccoli sprouts with some sort of ketone

120:13supplement or if you're doing if you're in ketosis the other that's fasting time restricted eating you know so something that I do so I am definitely trying to get my ketosis in or you're on a ketogenic diet and you're getting so the question is I'm not sure the glucose sparing stuff that's been shown an animal so I don't know how much of that is you know translatable to humans and what effect I mean you always have to have evidence to say something definitively but animal studies do show that that there is a glucose sparing effect when you have ketone bodies hmm so you know just fascinating that would make you more present you know there what's fascinating is that sulforaphane treats autistic symptoms right I mean right so yeah right so what's going on there it's definitely and there's also been an open label study so there's been two trials with two or maybe three and

121:10dr. Jeff a he's been a part of these as well as his colleagues a randomized placebo-controlled and open label which is always less open label means there was no placebo control but they did measure metabolites of sulphur sulforaphane and also oxidative stress in in plasma which always helps and then there's been a trial and schizophrenic patients so for referring helps with that as well that was open label right now there's an ongoing placebo control trial that's now taking place so there's very interesting effects on the brain you know it seems as though there is some oxidative stress component you know I have a belief or who knows how much you know they're a oxidative stress may be happening more my brain because of AP we for mm-hmm there's certainly increased risk for Alzheimer's disease increase you know the traumatic brain injury poor outcome all there's all this evidence that sort

122:03of shows that so don't start kickboxing definitely not good so do you think that mean it seems like like a perfect pre podcast meal would be these broccoli sprouts yeah maybe an exogenous ketone drink as well like the two of them together yes so the only thing is like I mentioned for me I crash after a couple of hours where I'm like like it's like really like like crash I think you could mitigate that with maybe some sort of a glucose because one of the things that may be so yeah they say to take when you're taking those ketone salts or ketone esters or really potent ones is to take them with glucose right and I actually say on they say in the instructions to take it with a high carbohydrate meal mm-hmm and so I usually will take I'll usually eat a bowl of oatmeal with like some fruit right and and I'll take it but but still it really like it lowers my blood low my

122:56blood glucose levels dramatically within an hour it's like that's like healthier when I've taken those supplements I don't I don't feel the crash try tried them when I'm talking HB MN it's a really powerful HP HIV and HIV and yeah I should have brought you something I have some in the hotel was thinking about trying and taking it but I was like I don't it tastes like ass yeah it tastes really bad I mean something definitely say you know so bad some of them were so disgusting I I did an interview with the president of the buck Institute for research on Aging and I like downed it right before he walked in and I was like and he had just published a study on on you know ketosis and animals and helping with lifespan and brain you know aging and stuff but so I had to tell him I'm like like here I just took this and I actually gave him some as well but because it was kind of

123:53embarrassing because your face oh yeah I was like missing big-time it was like funny way to first meet someone I had I know I had just like even some pineapple because they had like some fruit available and exceeding how many carbohydrates so anyways now you know all my secrets yeah well that's a good one that's fascinating I've never thought about that but that seems like a pre podcast meal or a pre comedy show meal that might be like a really good idea to try yeah it's a big plate of broccoli sprouts yeah the broccoli sprouts with a really good source on the supplements are not so it's really sufferings not very stable so you can check it in the shake do you grind it up so I haven't been doing that yes I grind it up but you can just put them on a salad or you can you know you don't have to do it doesn't taste good right there like that's why you shake so

124:41if you're gonna put it in a shake with other other things you want to blend it up first because the enzyme myrosinase that has to come in contact with the precursor of sulfur think Luca laughing in has to be in contact with it Swiss diluted out if you like a big all this other stuff so blend it up first and then add your other stuff okay but I've been taking a supplement I got from from France called pristine which is there's published studies on it and it tastes like broccoli sprouts and I've been taking that right now just because of the potential risk for contamination I'm just breastfeeding it you know I'm just like I'm always going along exactly so I'm just kinda cuz that bacteria has been shown to be transferred from breast milk and yes there was like that that news story where the woman ate the placenta yeah and like it was like I was reading this

125:30guy's Instagram he's a vegan and he was going on and on about people getting ecoli from meat and like Jesus Christ man you get it from spinach yeah you can get it from broccoli you get it from farm raised vegetables like stop right but but it comes he's right in in a way because it comes from the runoff from animal feces right and that's how it gets into isn't that the case I don't know I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure that's how it gets into the food fine if that's true ecoli in vegetables comes from animal agriculture Google that I think that's true I've certainly had some bad sprouts before store-bought I was failing yeah I got sick you know and also from once we made at home you know you it just if you have to be really careful if you have too much water around if it's too much heat and condensation and all that bacteria grows because you're eating it raw yeah exactly so when you

126:31clean I mean how difficult is it to clean did you find anything from manure yeah be-caw yeah so it is right remnants in general cattle in particular both beef and dairy yep right so a lot of these especially like a real organic farm a lot of times they're there they vary they have animals plants all sorts of the stuff together and the runoff from the cows gets under your broccoli and all that jazz yeah it's nasty and how do you clean that I mean if I you know told you that ecoli was on your vegetables you still want to eat them if you clean them you eat that so how do you clean your vegetables I rinse them yeah but I mean right how good I usually don't get I don't know if you knew like that's the thing like when people say oh you should clean your vegetables okay but if there was e.coli on those vegetables and you cleaned them who did you think there'll be enough

127:27probably wouldn't washing of greens won't protect against e.coli consumed there you go the heat kills e.coli and other types of bacteria can make you sick even greens that are typically consumed brah such as romaine lettuce can be cooked okay so e.coli is destroyed at 160 degrees Fahrenheit which is like seems like everything trichinosis a lot of things killed at one 160 so so but the broccoli sprouts you don't you don't consume cooked no because the enzyme that converts the precursor into active sulforaphane is heat sensitive is it it does it diminish it significantly or kill it all together significantly I mean you still there's still some plus the the precursor that you're that you know is important for forming sulforaphane you actually have bacteria in your gut and this is something that doctor judge Fahey talked about when I when I interviewed him he

128:22was talking about there's certain strange bacteria in the gut that convert because they have the enzyme myrosinase and they convert it into sulfur feeding the gut mmm so you can actually get a certain amount he also mentioned that you can take mustard seed powder and sprinkle it on top of your cooked Brussels sprouts your sauteed kale which is this is what I do because I eat sauteed kale and so I also have eat raw kale but mustard powder has the active enzyme so you can consume that with it okay what's the other thing like I mentioned the there are the supplements I'm taking there is one out there also that is has a lot of the precursor and some of the enzyme and so you can get a modest amount of and this is what was used in in the most recent autism study it's called AB McCall but the one is both a V a and wait yeah a V M maybe a.m. yes I've know AV AV M AC oh that one's that

129:27one's probably one of the best ones in the US but process of fame procced affines produce a frame mm-hmm dr. Judd fit he has test this the used he's test these different salt supplements and looked at sulforaphane metabolites and urine to look good like bioavailability so what is the one that you like your ah step in I like apples I've taken both but it's hard to get prostate in the u.s. why is it hard because it's made in four it's in France it's a France can you know what that's all Amazon's got me hooked no you can't get it it's just find it somewhere I think website maybe yeah okay so that's what I've been taking recently how much did you take I'm taking three pills a day I think each pill has 10 milligrams with food yes definitely with food yes why is that for absorption or yeah it seems like it can be a little like it you know it seemed it just sometimes if you're on an

130:37empty stomach this Rose doesn't feel good yeah hmm yeah I've had a lot of people email me you know since the first time you and I talked about suffering have taken a Bacall some have gotten ahold of recipients I'm doing broccoli sprouts I mean I've had people talking about like tumors shrinking and stuff like one guy yeah I mean it's like L anecdotal but I've had multiple multiple people talking about their prostates stimulating antigen going down sorry prostate is it stimulating PSA mm-hmm my brain sort of dwindling out but I'm all that went down I know it's a real thing it really is it's a real thing I mean I've kind of I feel like I've done really good just from like exercise and getting all the fish oil and stuff but it's definitely there's constantly it's just all your marathon a day totally it's that I mean people that we were talking about this before the

131:35podcast with Dan the people that don't think that it's difficult to be just a mom or stay-at-home mom you're crazy I was so judgmental and I really feel bad I really do because it's the hardest thing like like that I've ever done ever has a great job you want to do it good okay so it's the hardest thing goes any job you can do your pajamas on it's not the hardest thing I really like this yeah it's a great I mean if you want to do a good job and you're thinking about like the enriched environment and how important I got a degree I got to read to them I got a you know all this in it just and then all the nutrition and nothing the plastic and I mean it's just a lot of work like I don't know screams you don't want to have like you don't want to sit them in front of the television and have them watching cartoons right you know so which definitely would be easy right so and

132:28maybe the more kids you have they're kind of like something I can't but but it's definitely a very very hard it's a hard job but very rewarding so rewarding like I just can't even believe I ever had a life before my son you know and like I'm just my life is like I get so much joy from him now and I'm just like how do I get all this joy before it's like well it's crazy because I remember before you had him you were like concerned like boy I wonder where my time is gonna go if I'm still gonna be able to do research it's like see yeah it's hard and I thankfully I have my mother who helps out a lot and that gives me some time but I'm like essentially doing both you know do you feel the switch is going off in your brain your brain switches over because you're you essentially there's some a biological mechanism that's happening that must be fascinating to study on

133:18yourself as you're watching it happen because you're you know the oxytocin gets jacked through the roof you have this little thing that you love literally more than anything you've ever experienced in your entire existence you can't believe how much you love them it's hard to imagine like I it's hard for me as a father to imagine what it would be like to be a mother because I think there's a big difference because I think there's and this is one reason why me and my wife had a deal I didn't name any of the kids I just had veto power it's like you can't call the kid like turnip or some stupid nothin nutty but you it's in your body I mean you're cooking and manufactured it I know inside of you that the differencing that job a man does and a woman does in in terms of like the actual making of the baby could not be further apart from each other the guy just does something

134:15that feels great and it's done and then the woman goes through this insane hormonal process her body morphs she gains 50 60 plus pounds her body stretches out she's got a baby inside of her it's kicking her she's uncomfortable she can't move she's swelling then she has to go through excruciating pain there was a video on Digg from yesterday see if you can find it where they have a labor recreating like pain device no way that they put men under and they had they have these macho men that they have this this machine that they they do something to have these a sense these put it up will figure out how the they did it but it's somehow or another reenacts the pain of labor and lets a man experience what it's like to get your vagina blown apart that's crazy you know it is you just totally explain I mean the whole pregnancy and then like the delivery I mean it's just like and then

135:18it's like a part of you is walking around right whereas for the man it's like yeah that's my kid Wow and you get all this oxytocin rush but I don't even think it's a fractional breastfeeding you know that whole like nursing that's like huge oxytocin lays huge huge no and and then of course there's like the no sleep for like months and for me like I my son like he's seen a bottle like I don't know six or seven times like I just always been yeah and you pump so because I was always there I've only had to pump a few times the thing about pumping that seems to be really good those that the kids can get more of it it's like it's something but depending on how we have an issue is actually an over producer and I don't issue up too much we're yeah it's like he's like slow down mom yeah so who've AIDS syndrome a sympathetic pregnancy is a proposed condition which a partner experience is

136:17some symptoms and be that's just a bitch-ass man these are minor weight gain altered hormone levels morning nausea and disturbed sleep patterns like I said that's just a bit Jasmine the disturb sleep patterns come after the baby's born let me tell you that's silly Meg yeah some guys say that again again we - and I was pregnant that's cuz you're lazy that's cuz you lazy knee ain't more food you slob that has nothing to do with a baby being in your body shut your mouth that's that's embarrassing are you pregnant - no you're not I hate when men say we're pregnant yeah we're pregnant no we're not no we're not pregnant Mike you're not pregnant Mike she's pregnant you got her pregnant you what does it say here labor pains simulator here here it is look at these guys give me some volume now you're almost getting to like the active stage of labour where it's really

137:23getting good this is the beginning what's next is these gals put a strap-on on they pegged these dudes next they just have sensors on their stomach it looks like right yeah it's like you know one of them like you know there's electoral muscular stimulation devices and they just jack them through the roof just a bear that could have put one on that Ryan right yeah well they put them in their abdomen just getting torn apart but it's not even as sensitive as your vagina so it's ridiculous plus you're probably not making like yeah there's nothing and he's getting up on his hands and knees like come on stop yeah they're just basically torturing these men to make them feel bad for not being a woman yeah it's definitely um painful process that's whole delivery thing yeah a little bit it is pretty crazy it's definitely crazy it's really crazy that people make

138:37people in their bodies you know like I was talking to my daughter this morning she's getting ready for school and we're sitting at the breakfast table and I'm just looking at her and while she's talking all I'm thinking of is you didn't used to exist and now here you are talk to me about school talk to me about this and that and all the different things you're doing and it is so odd that you are a combination of my DNA and my wife's DNA and here you are just sitting there eating breakfast just talking ten years old now blah blah blah blah blah blah blah is she telling jokes yet she's not that well she'll she'll tell jokes but my eight-year-olds hilarious the eight-year-old has figured out how to be funny she farts on cue like she'll tell you she's got to tell you son thing daddy I have to tell you something I just come here I tell you something she thinks it's so funny

139:33she thinks she's she's really funny she says funny she's a very funny person maybe she's got a little bit some of the DNA from me was a little more active I don't know I think it's like she knows how to get a like a positive response out of people you know she knows how to be silly and she loves that like she's really silly with her friends and she's just like she's the comedian amongst her friends for sure cool yeah whereas my 10 year olds not really that funny but just I wouldn't say she's not that funny she doesn't try it's not something she works at it's also interesting how they're so different and they're like it couldn't be a man yeah couldn't be more different right out of the box they come out with their own little personality like when they were tiny tiny babies you could see that they were different you know I bet if you had ten of them like those crazy

140:19people those Duggars would have like 19 kids yeah I bet they got 19 different humans but they're all totally different you know I pet one I like Mike's like Shelly well they're probably like kind of close is just it's I mean I wish the it made sense I wish I could get a view of the human organism from high enough above that it all made sense and I and I could say oh all these little varying pieces are working in conjunction with each other and this is why things get done and this is why art gets created and buildings get built because you have to have this and then you have to have that and they work together and you know I mean that's like personalities right in terms of relationships like you don't want to have two bulls right you know you have one who's like this and the others like that and together they make this one thing that's really nice and I

141:18mean we've both seen I'm sure people that are just not that there might be really great people but together they're terrible right just for whatever reason yeah for sure fascinating so it's so Brock Tober yes and you're gonna be doing some sauna did I tell you about some of the new sauna stuff in the brain no new stuff how new well past year I asked you before we get going is there a difference but you cuz I keep this keeps coming up is there any beneficial difference between infrared versus standard well a lot of the studies that I refer to and that have been published I've been using a standard right and and they definitely work differently I mean a standard standard hot sauna or you're heating up the air and you're so you're sure you're getting hot whereas the infrared is like it's like using it's like wavelengths that are like you know stimulating electrons that are sort of changing

142:14things and heating up you from a different sort of way so I do think that the key is the heat stress itself that personally I think that the the standard is better why so because you get it's easier to get more hot more discomfort more heat stress it takes a lot longer and infrared sauna to really heat up at least in my experience they only go to me like 140 or something Fahrenheit Oh a lot of benefits come from like 180 and you get up to like a 180 really okay mine cranks I have to mine yours one out here your regular you're hot yeah that thing gets too hot yeah it gets to 200 all the time that's and I have to open up the door yeah your ears start to hurt and it's not even cut my feet hurt again it's not even close to pegged like in terms of like the the the full temperature one I just have a really hot one yeah so I think that heats really important with one leg yeah exactly 180

143:11for 20 minutes is where sort of like a lot of studies published by like doctor jari you are you lacking in in Finland he's shown a lot of benefits he's a lot of his studies have been observational but he's also done some intervention trials as well the observational says we've talked about improvements and cardio you know cardiovascular related mortality I'll like literally like people people do at four to seven times a week they have like a 50% improvement in cardiovascular rated mortality three to four three to four times a week or is it - yeah three or four times a week to three times a week is like 24% improvement it's like a dose-dependent man or alzheimer's disease as well as like reduced by like 60% if you do it four to seven times a we all cause mortality but he's also done some intervention studies showing that like there's improvements even a single

143:58dose of doing the sauna improvements in the ability of your your your blood vessels to contract and expand with pressure changes which is important so it's like vascular compliance it's called improvements in blood pressure decreases in in c-reactive protein the inflammatory biomarker other studies have been showing recently in humans increase in mitochondrial biogenesis growing new healthy mitochondria improvements in mitochondrial function and then also in improve improvements in anti inflammatory cytokines being increased and these are all intervention trials as well people that are doing it with before doing a workout which is interesting so I've always done it before yeah so so so doing it before workout it reduced to late onset muscle soreness doing it before workout which is weird because 20 minutes before I don't remember the exact amount of time

144:53I think that it was a little bit of a different protocol for that study I can't remember off the top of my head I did tweet it at some point but yeah it's really interesting because I doing it before seems like I'm so like after doing the sauna it's like going into a workout after that so maybe would they have the same effects effects afterward after you know doing it afterwards possibly but what's super interesting is the effects on the brain like have you noticed do do you feel any feel great yeah when I come out there I feel just chilled out relaxed I feel I feel really good I just feel good right that alleviated that's exactly the reason I even got interested in sauna was I that was you know I was doing it regularly and I started to notice that but I recently met up with a researcher his name is dr. Charles Ray's on I recorded a podcast with him very interesting guy

145:45but he devised this really cool like gadget where he could elevate people's core body temperature by like a degree and a half but he had a tram control a placebo so to speak and so so the placebo did increase people's core body temperature a little bit but not to that amount not to that degree so people thought they were getting the active treatment they were never getting anything he said when they had when asked afterwards like 70% of them thought they got the active treatment oh so so yeah so it's actually a nice placebo controlled study but what he found was that even a single treatment these were in people that had major depressive disorder it improved depressive symptoms like you've been a week week after and this was just a single you know exposure to the sauna sauna it's not actually it's on it was like this like heating device but um he also measured their cytokine called il-6

146:43which is something that's released from exercise muscle tissue releases it spills out into the bloodstream and it's part of the inflammatory you know response part of the inflammatory aspect of exercise and in response there's a whole anti-inflammatory effect and so what he showed is that actually people with more il-6 that happened the better they had antidepressant you know effect so it's super interesting because again exercise does that in fact if you give people NSAIDs or like you know so non-steroidal anti-inflammatories and before exercise it actually blunts the il-6 production and it blunts some of the positive benefits like insulin sensitivity so aisle six although it's an inflammatory cytokine it's kind of like this sort of plio tropic one that like it's released it's in muscle tissue it's released and it seems to like increase have a big anti inflammatory

147:40response it happens in response to that so it was really interesting because the inflammation seems to be really important for depression and that the sauna was like you know basically basically lowering markers of inflammation so it's been shown to lower C reactive protein and then also increase aisle 10 so it's very interesting kind of connection between mood heat stress and then of course exercise does the same thing exercise does elevate your core body temperature and heats you up and I asked dr. raisin he thinks that things like the sauna hot yoga hot baths steam room all those things are pretty much can give you the same effect the point is the heat stress I'm pretty sure that yoga the same in fact with hot yoga because I have that same feeling when I get out of a hot yoga class yeah this is like really good alleviation feeling I just my mood feels elevated I feel happier

148:30and it feels different than a regular workout like regular workout does that but it seems more an alleviation of stress like I've expelled the excess energy in my body and I can relax and there's certainly some sort of some sort of a positive hormonal effect after it's over you know some endorphin rush but it's not the same as the yoga the hot yoga I think is very addictive to people and that's one of the reasons because after it's over you feel amazing you feel so good there's studies showing that hot yoga does improve depressive symptoms they're not you know you know sham control I think there's a researcher at Harvard public school of health who is trying to develop they're trying to do a study we're doing right now are they with or with a control right there in the thing about yoga is that it's only a hundred and four degrees in the room but when you take into account

149:22the extreme condition of like the exercise extreme stress that you're putting on your body a lot of it is like really difficult balancing and you're straining and all your mom you're sweating and you're not sweating like 104 degrees you're sweating just like you're sweating inside the song right like big-time spice yeah yeah yeah yeah like there's certain ones that like when you do a balancing stick what I'm standing in front of me like this I'm watching you just pour off my arms yeah just watching sweat drip off me I sweat when I'm doing yoga like non what I'm holding those positions with a non hot environment mm-hmm you know so I haven't I've done a Bikram yoga a couple of times I've been the hot yoga a couple of times I do really like it and had more time right you see one minutes is a long time yeah but but the endorphin you dump a bunch of endorphins with the sauna as

150:13well like tons and tons and then there's the whole like you're making dine orphan which is the sort of opposite of endorphin responsible for that changes some of the least in animal studies Petronas to change your sensitivity to end orphans from the receptor standpoint yeah so it's kind of interesting that's kind of initially what I what I originally was was looking into you when I was noticing all these benefits from the sauna but that's really cool that you're doing it because there's so many studies now showing that there's benefits on the cardiovascular health also on neurogenesis ease depression I mean the anti-inflammatory effects as well it's so easy to have it I mean to have it right here and just to be able to to get into the sauna anytime I want I'm basically doing it every day that's nice yeah right now I've been taking hot baths just because I haven't where we're

151:03trying to like get to the point where we have a sauna but I think we're gonna get there soon but hot baths have been really doing it for me as well where I'm like submerged my shoulders mhmmm I mean you can't like if you start putting your arms and legs out of the water or like it doesn't count cuz like feel cooler right if you'd like stay underneath I mean you're stop freaking out your heart starts reading thing I mean it's like the same effect that happens where you elevated heart rate and all on all those sort of similar mechanisms kick into play like they do when you're in a sauna do you do Epsom salt baths as well I have I really like them I've been doing really hot baths with epsom salts especially like after like very fatiguing workout huh huh seems to have a good benefit and and I know from the tank from the isolation tank that it's a great way of absorbing

151:47magnesium through the epsom salts Oh into your muscle yeah through your through your skin mhm you know because epsom salts is so high in magnesium yeah right in the tank is a thousand pounds of epsom salts in it that's crazy does it make your skin like nice when you do it yeah yeah it just feels good too but it's a feels really the tank have you done yet I did it once um in San Francisco and you could do it anytime you want if you want to come really yeah I think it was really something wasn't right because I could feel like the temperature of the water or so I was off and I I did enjoy what I what I mean it was nice so at first I got in and they had some music playing music and then the music went away oh to sort of relax you at first yeah but I did I was like sort of in my head a bit you know in that but didn't buy kept feeling the water and I thought I didn't feel like I was like

152:45sensory deprived it are you ever hear other than like when you come down to do the podcast yeah I do I'm coming back in November anytime you're here just let me know in advance and we'll open it up and this tank here is the best the float lab or if you want to go to the place in Venice but the one you can do here is so easy and it's got a shower in there and every yeah that would be cool I would like to try it again yeah I mean there's studies showing you know meditation and all that stuff is really important or I think it's an important you know one one of the you know of many components and like healthy aging healthy brain aging lowering stress and stuff so I would definitely - I get out of that thing I feel great Oh frequently yeah yeah it's right here you know so I'll come down here early in the morning and do it sometime how long do you have to stay in

153:30there - really I'll I'd like at least an hour but I really like to do two hours two hours for me is a sweet spot mm-hmm when I come out after two hours I'm just like so chill relax it's almost like during sober October it's like cheating because you're basically getting high in there are you doing it during so worked oh yeah okay I mean it's not you're not taking a drug but you're so chilled out you know and you do have a weird psychedelic state that you achieve when you it's like a very extreme form of meditation in a lot of ways because of the fact that you're not feeling your body at all and it's you're only experiencing whatever is going it's like your brain detached from all the input of the body some of those some of those studies that have been done on like long term meditators or even just people that haven't meditated and then they're put and like some like eight-week trial of

154:21meditation and how there's like immediately all these changes in brain activity turn to happen yeah like better you know basically in line with good brain aging and improved you know all sorts of measure measures have improved cognitive function and stuff it's super interesting yeah it would be really interesting to see like you know what how that differs from meditation is one thing I have a hard time with like I really it's well meditation in conjunction with the tank I think is really the key I think the tank allows you to achieve a state of physical your physical body not being or not I I you don't ever completely eliminate the sensory input but you diminish it so significantly that that environment is not available anywhere else on earth where you're floating so you don't feel your body your water is the temperature of your skin the air is the same temperature as

155:13the water and you feel like just flying through infinity you're in total darkness total silence yeah I didn't feel that way I mean I did it was a little relaxed imagine if like I was like flying through you have cheaper tanks that's that's part of the problem some of the times you feel the water the entire time yeah there it's probably the too cold or too hot it should you feel like your brain is like in the now when you're doing it is that something I feel like my brain is has way more resource Reis way more resources available to it so like if you and I were having this conversation and we didn't have the headphones on and there was a jackhammer next to us it would be really distracting you'd want to get away from that jackhammer let's go talk over here until you want you'd want to get away as far as you could from but everything is a distraction like these the seat on my butt is a

156:02distraction was the shoes on my feet or something I'm thinking about the watch on my hand there's all these different things that are distracting you but when you get in that tank there's none of those things you're you're just you settle in and once you settle in you touch each side so that you can you know cuz you get in the water it's like a few whip ripples and little little waves and then you touch each side so you calm everything down and then I sink into the water and then I take some deep breaths and then I slowly bring my arms in the middle and then I chill out and I've done it so many times my bodies goes ok here we go again like it's not like whoa what is this this is a weird I've done it so many times that my body gets into that state very quickly but if I take time off and I do sometimes I'll take weeks or even a month off and then it's a little more weird at first like oh

156:53we're doing this again no I haven't done this in a while but when I do it consistently on a regular basis to three times a week then I could just sink right into it I wonder if it would be any therapeutic benefit to people with like sensory gating disorders sense yeah we're you know in other words like you weren't mentioning all the senses other sensory things that are happening you know there's auditory there's smell there's visual I mean these things there are brains in putting at all times I mean there's stuff going on but were able to kind of filter it out and like you and I are having this conversation Jamie's been sitting over the whole time and like I really haven't paid much attention right attention but some people like particularly schizophrenic people with schizophrenia they can't they don't filter that out and so like they get overlooked like it's like an

157:36overload it's called sensory overload and so they oftentimes I can't go into like a room with a lot of people they don't want to like go off and you know with you know by themselves or whatever so I wonder if there is any sort of benefit for like doing something like that where you're where you're not you know the sensory input it's kind of like if you could kind of train your brain a little bit I don't know I don't know I just I find that for me it helps me think way clearer because I feel like I have more brain available to access I feel like if you were trying to say something that was very very complicated and you try to explain something that required a lot of the resources of your brain if there was a lot of noise around you you wouldn't be able to do it but if there's a lot of noise like you want to eat let's go eat about some jackhammer yeah I'm hungry you want to

158:25eat yeah let's go eat like you could be able to communicate something very simple but if you were trying to explain the various mechanisms really try that because I think because I go through like this I also sometimes use this honor for that we're all like have something like prepared I used to actually before giving a presentation I would go in the sauna and I would go through it in my head you know so it's like you know that was something that that I used to do a lot was a sauna there's nothing in there just you yeah sitting there and it gives you that unusual environment of just silent it really helped yeah so it's kind of interesting that yeah that's a step toward but I think the the float tank is the ultimate and right now there's a really interesting podcast that's available I've talked about this podcast before stuff to blow your mind they have

159:17a an episode right now this week that is a John Lilly who is the psychedelic pioneer who created the sensory deprivation tank and he also is a pioneer in interspecies communication figured out how to communicate with dolphins and did a bunch of weird psychedelic research with dolphins there it is from the vault Jhansi Lilly he a really amazing amazing guy who I mean if you go but they go deep into the history of his his career too which is just very varied really strange guy but I think is his great contribution is not just understanding the sentient nature of dolphins and how incredibly complex their languages no smart they are but also the sensory deprivation tank which I think is it's one of those underutilized tools for consciousness for exploring consciousness and just for relaxation and for me for examining ideas if I have an idea like I used to do I just do a lot of

160:19jiu-jitsu in there like I would go into the tank and I would go over moves because when you're when you're completely I would I would drill moves in my head like as if I was doing them I would like clench roll talk grab sink I would do all these different things in my head back to thing yeah and I would allow I would do that to get me to this like relaxation state you know or I would go over a joke that I'm struggling with or a comedy bit I'm like was a better way to say this house it's the best way to get this across now I'm saying it this way but it's an offensive or it's blunt and it's not the funny part like I'm taking a short cut maybe I was a bet and then I would go over it in my head and then eventually once I would do that I would get to this relaxation point or then I could just concentrate it only on breathing so after I've like worked out all the things that are

161:13bugging me and sometimes it would be like a seminar on my wife I'd get in there and then as soon as I close the tank door and lay down I take a few deep breaths and then it'd be like okay so here's what's wrong you're doing too much of this clean your goddamn office you know how come you you only get eight out of ten things down on your to-do list that's bothering you you know you need to spend an hour a day just doing this and instead of drinking coffee and looking at your phone before you work out just work out just get in there and get your situation twenty minutes doing that that twenty minutes you could have been done twenty minutes earlier and then you wouldn't have to rush over here to do the podcast and it's like it starts sort of giving me almost like a subconscious renovation you know like just so it's just sort of like okay like this is there's all this

162:04stuff in your subconscious is disturbing you and here's why it's disturbing you because you've got all this clutter so let's clean this up clean it up get it together and it's been responsible for I think a lot of my focus and discipline like understanding the the significance of that focus and discipline and it's not just like to be a tough guy or to just go out there and kick ass it's it's more like to absolve yourself of brain clutter it's all pretty awesome that introspection you're talking about yeah a lot of people could use more of that including myself I mean it's certainly I think all of us I think almost really anyone listening to this and I think there's probably one in San Diego so if there's a tank place in San Diego reach out to dr. Rhonda Patrick and I'm sure that there's a place you could use this down there that's near you I mean I certainly use other things

162:56like extra stunning long runs sure that do something somewhere in that zone zone yeah sort of but what you're describing sounds kind of like next level a lot of people get it from swimming as well swimming yeah repetitive thing and then you sort of managing the motion of your body and then once you get in it's almost like a mantra you're managing the motion of your body and then the breathing and then once you get it all synched up if you're in good enough shape that it's not like a titanic struggle with every every lap or every stroke of your arms you can get into this sort of meditative state that a lot of people achieve with running or or even just like sitting there breathing like a lot of people get that yeah I have a difficult time during that but now it's hard yeah is it funny that would be hard to sit still it is is funny is actually like some of the

163:50other interesting stuff is just doing that sit there sit still and breathe changes like the activation of enzymes and stuff like telomerase the enzyme that rebuilds telomeres it literally activates telomerase so so fascinating how just like certain things like like I wouldn't imagine doing that would actually you know change polymerase yeah the body's this never-ending puzzle really is and whenever I talk to you a more and more sort of aware of that because there's so many different things and so many different mechanisms and in terms of nutrition and nutritional absorption that I just I'm so ignorant of and it's I hear all these saying and I'm like I'm path trying to get a map of the territory yeah I'm a call so there's so many things I mean yeah but I feel like every time I talk it's like someone's breaking out a little napkin and going yeah yeah and then you take a

164:42right here and you go there and I go all right but it's not a real map like the map of the whole thing escapes me it's too big it's too big it's it's too complex and I'll listen to this podcast again like I'll listen to all the things you you said again and I'll try to take notes maybe tomorrow or the next day but then my stupid brain will like a little like leak half of it'll leak out it's like I'm trying to hold water in my fingers it's like I got it I've got some water it's not dripping down my wrists it's so hard so hard to get a real understanding of this stuff I agree I mean certainly lots of controversy and disagreement among researchers as well you know don't you think that's also probably one what's so attractive about simplifying things like hashtag meet heels you know I mean like people almost like yeah let's just just jam it into a saying or jam it into like one type of

165:38practice and that's all you need that's all you need all I need is meat look at me I'm just eating meat feeling great I feel amazing and then people I want to feel amazing and then they jump in - yep you already saw me get emotional I was yeah no I'm glad yeah I'm glad you did get emotional and I'm glad you did sort of spell it out and I hope I mean imma send this to Jordan afterwards I don't know if he has the time to listen to it he might have less time than us you know guys pretty busy yeah maybe when he's you know moving going from one place to another I'm playing or whatever yeah um I just think that it's a movement right now and you got to be real careful about movement yes swept up in them yeah okay I'm moving another force is right way well I don't know if that's the right way to move but I'm moving yeah so all right well look we just hit three hours nice

166:39crazy yeah time flies I always loved talking with you Joe always I've talked with you too it's fun I'm gonna take you up on the flotation thing so I really do wanna comment it anytime call me up it's yours just give me some time you know just give me like a you know a little bit in advance we'll open the place up for you awesome all right thank you all right Oh keep people foul my fitness on instagram found my fitness on twitter iTunes itunes your podcast yes and the most recent one which is the one that we were discussing was Alzheimer's and website is also found yeah there's a lot of there's a lot of show notes and summaries and definitions that help people like you know understand some of the stuff if they don't understand everything that we're speaking about so thank you very much awesome thank you Brian Patrick ladies and gentlemen