Thierry Henry (EXCLUSIVE): "I Cried Every Single Day", Dealing With Depression, My Childhood Trauma & Fighting For My Dad's Love!
Guests: Thierry Henry
Full transcript · Read the full conversation in order, with its original context.
§01Transcript — part 1
I was lying for a very long time because society wasn't ready to hear what I had to say. But, I will be honest with you, I was... Thierry Aubry, record breaker! History maker! Arsenal's record goal scorer! Throughout my career, I must have been in depression. Did I do something about it? No. But to understand the person that I became, you have to understand what happened early. When I was young, I didn't see a lot of love, affection, hugging. My dad, the first time he took me in his arms, said, this baby will be an amazing football player.
From that point, I was programmed to succeed. My dad took control of my body, and it was tough. One day, we played the game. I was 13 years old. We won the game 6-0. I scored six goals. But it was always what I didn't do. You miss that control. You miss that cross. You miss that this. You miss that that. And it can make you or break you. I decided it was going to make me. I wasn't scared of failure. You're going to fail. That's what shapes you. But I was more scared not to please people.
Even when you were playing at Arsenal and you were winning golden boots and the Invincibles, you were still trying to please your dad. Yeah. But were you happy? Oof. So long you think what you're doing is to please others Football money We have a roof But then I was about to leave again My girlfriend, the kids, everybody starts to cry And for the first time I realised they were crying for me Not the football player, not the accolades And I felt human If I was watching you, what would I have seen?
Me crying Almost every day But it was the young Thierry What was he crying for? To understand a man, I know that you have to understand his context, especially his early context. I think we're all products of our earliest context. I certainly am. And having spent a very small amount of time with you, I know you are as well. What is that early context that people need to know to understand a man that sits in front of me today? I will second what you just said.
I think you need to understand the struggles of someone to know exactly what the person thinks. is and what a person is about. So many things that we can start with. I grew up in... In a modest household, if I can say that, for me at the time, it was the best because I couldn't compare it to anything. I grew up with diversity. I grew up with, there is food on the table. So therefore, I love you. I take care of you, so therefore I love you. It wasn't so much communicated by hugs, by I love you, by a well-done person.
More often than not, it was more something that I didn't do that was raised. Being from the Caribbean, my parents came early to France, which they call it the continent. It is still France because there are French islands, Guadeloupe and Martinique. But we always say going to France. It was the dream for that era to go to the continent, to go to France to have a better life. to try to make sure that we could have a better life. But when, when you, when you grew up there, you know, you, you, you dream of going to France because it's better, because it's like in bracket the American dream, which actually it is the French dream.
I'm sure it was the same for you. When you arrive in France, make sure you don't make any mistakes. Make sure they don't come to us and say, oh, those guys from the Caribbean, They just arrived. So don't speak Creole. Make sure you speak French well. Don't do this. Don't do that. We need to fit in. We don't want to get sent back to the Caribbean. We want to keep the house that we have. We want to keep the job that we have. Always that fear of getting sent back.
Not so much for me because I was born in France, but they always had that chip on their shoulder of make sure you don't make any mistakes. I don't want anyone to say that my son was this, my son was that. Don't bring any problem. You know, we came here to work. We came here to have a better life. So please do not do not spoil it. Kind of. So you always feel like you need to fit in and not belong. I was kind of heavy at one point as a young kid, you know.
But that's the way it was. You listen to it. You grew up with it. And you just try to fit in at one point. What was life like outside of the four walls that you lived in? Outside of the home, the streets you grew up on? Just a normal neighborhood, if I can use the word normal neighborhood, with everything that goes with it. Gangs, drugs, fights, happiness, diversity, different food, different religions. So I always say that it was the best for me to understand what the world was.
How does it compare to the streets that your kids are growing up on? What street? The garden. The grass. No concrete there. No, joking aside. You can't compare it, man. I mean. But if I had to do it again, I would do it again. I'll do it again because it made me, you know, it's very difficult. I can't even start to even compare anything. I did everything for them not to grow up there. Because you don't want to grow up there. Why? Because I didn't want them to go through that.
It's weird for me to say that. It's kind of a cliche thing to say that you don't really want to grow up there. If you ask anyone when they can compare it, they're like, oh no, it's better to grow up there. It's better to grow up there. But for me, like I said... I'll do it again because it made me understand a lot of things. Acceptance, living with others, to coexist in any way, by the way. What you think of, what you wear... how you see the world.
For me, I couldn't care less that in my class, it was the same thing. It was Senegalese, Malian, Caribbean, North African, Asian, Italian, Polish roots, Portuguese roots. I couldn't care less about what you thought or not. I'm like, this is my friend. Do you know what I mean? And I traveled also without traveling. I went around the world staying in the same place. I had all the food in the world staying in the same place. So this is why I would say it's kind of a cliche thing to say you don't want to grow up there.
But what it gives you also, what it gives you is second to none for me in terms of, what you need in order to comprehend how the world is. You described it before as growing up and only seeing cement. Yeah, concrete. I grew up, it's kind of weird for me to say that, Stephen, but if I don't see concrete for more than a week, I don't feel well. I know people like country and country life and country life and the sea. If I don't see concrete, I don't feel well.
I grew up in it. Some people will tell you, I can't see it anymore. I need the sea, I need whatever. For me, yeah. I'm happy in a town, concrete. That's where I grew up. But yes, you can encounter problems there. A lot. But I'll be honest with you, I was lucky enough. I have an older brother that's seven years older than me. So his friend, him, used to protect me because I have the same age as my town. So I was born in 77. My town was built in 77.
so just imagine my brother arriving in this town, he's older than me, was the first one that had a job, the first one, obviously, that had money, the first one, I had a car, so he was well-respected. I know he sounds stupid now to say that, but he was well-respected, so I always stayed... away from trouble, especially with my parents. But also, I don't know if you had that, but when you have a certain gift and the guys in the neighborhood know that you might do something, you're also protected.
interesting because I leave this one alone he might do something he's good at football you know so let him be kind of interesting so I had my brother I had that also because when you play football and you're from a town and like hey a little kid he's from our town you know so you have a kind of unwritten protection in a way because you might do it You know, you might succeed. Going back inside your home, what was life like inside the walls of your home?
I always think that we learn, you kind of gave a hint to it there, we learn emotion inside the walls of our home. I certainly didn't, because there wasn't a lot of love in my life. parents' house in terms of their love with each other. And we weren't necessarily a very affectionate family. So I then struggled growing up as an adult because I didn't really learn affection. Oh, that's exactly what I referred to before. No, we didn't have that. My parents, my parents already divorced when I was seven, eight.
So dad left. At one point in the house, he was present when I had to go to training or games or coming around at times. But he left when I was eight. So I technically grew up with my mom. But even when they were together, it's exactly what you said. I didn't see a lot of love, affection, hugging, love. You know, when I say that, I'm not complaining. It wasn't hell. Please, by any means. But it wasn't a lot of love. That side of the emotion, I didn't know it.
And even more so, when you grow up in this type of neighborhood... that amplify also what was happening at home. Like it's more of a be rough, anger. You're the man, you're a man, be strong. Don't cry. You know, I didn't know how to open up talking, I had a problem, maybe I need help. I didn't know those tools. I didn't know, I didn't have a door first and foremost to be able to know what it was. I'm sure you understand what I mean. Like, even until now, when I hug my mom, it's weird.
Yeah. Like, and I know people are like, come on, it's weird. You know, I won't stay too long. You know what I mean? Like, I'm like, okay, that's enough now. I mean, maybe I went too far with it. Did I go too far? You know, because I don't know. It stayed. It stayed. I didn't know how to deal with that. Was I even aware of it? It's when then I went to other people's houses. Later on. Or when you speak with people and they tell you they have discussions.
Yeah. about whatever. I'm like, what? You guys discuss? You talk? You talk? All right. Must be nice. Not in a bad way. Understand me well. But that's how I was. You know, you get on with it. You get used to it. It becomes a norm. Who could you speak to back then? Nobody. But understand me well. I didn't know that I had to speak to people to feel well. I didn't know anything else. So I can't be sitting here saying, oh, I wish, I don't wish anything.
I just didn't know that when you had a problem, you talk about it. Whatever it is, you had a fight, you feel well about, or you were ashamed about something. No, you go home. How was your day? Good. Apart if you've been, you know, something happened and the headmaster called at home or whatever it is. And then you didn't do your homework or whatever. But if you ask me, are you okay? I'm okay. Did you get more attention when things didn't go well?
When you were naughty or, you know, maybe... Oh, that's also the norm. So you get attention for... Yeah, yeah. That was, this is where, you know, that stayed with me up until now. My attention to details... comes from the fact that it was always what I didn't do that mattered. So if I walk in a room, I can straight away see what's wrong. Never what's good, which is I'm working on. It did help me in my life and it still does help me because I can assess the situation pretty quick and see if something's going to go south or not.
Or if there is something wrong or whatever, I will notice it straight away. That comes with a cost. Yeah, it does. Obviously, it does. But like I said to you, I can't help myself. It was always what I didn't do. To who? To whoever. My mom, my dad. It was tough. Caribbean way. It's just what you didn't do enough. My dad was very particular at times on how I was as a... As a player, as a little boy, it was always like, you didn't do that well. So obviously, when you hear that more often than not, that's what's going to stay.
This is part of the sort of immigrant story of survival. When you come to a new place, parents aren't focused on self-actualization or happiness or fulfillment. They're focused on, you know, you better survive and you better get an education. And they're almost in defense mode. You got to fit yourself. Yeah. You got to fit. So make sure you, you know, it's going to be, it is a cliche thing, and I'm sure you heard it at home. It's going to be twice as hard for you to get a job.
So you grew up with that. You grew up with, oh, I can't make any mistakes. Where did football come into this? Oh, early doors, early doors. My dad... This is, and I said it so many times, this is exactly what he said the first time he took me in his arm. He didn't say, people joke about it up until now because that story, it's known. But he didn't say that, you know, oh my God, he looks like me or he doesn't look like me or he has a big forehead or massive lips or a big nose or whatever you say.
Oh my God, he's not a good looking one. Or, you know, whatever. Whatever. The first thing he did say is, he put me in the air. This is what my uncle, the Mountie, said. He said, this baby will be an amazing football player. This is what he said. And I know people will say, yeah, right. This is exactly what he said. And he puts me down. How do you feel about that? Weird because, you know, weird and happy and at times why and thank God. But I wish and I will explain because after that, you can imagine what comes next.
He's going to fulfill the prophecy. So what comes next is that I was programmed to succeed. So whatever, what was going to happen was always going to happen. You know, he took me on the field. I was maybe five, six. It's funny how you don't remember stuff at times that early, but I do remember the first time he took me on the field just to strike the ball. Just to strike the ball. Just to strike the ball and that's about it. And from that point, it was always a mission.
I was on the mission to fulfill his dream, to please him, to... And by the way, don't get me wrong. At the time, I don't know how much I liked it. I cannot, I don't know. All I knew is I didn't hate it. Was it your choice? Definitely not my choice. Early doors, what choice do you have anyway when you're young? If your mom wants to play piano, it's at one point you turn and you go like, hey, I've had enough of the piano. Or I've had enough of the guitar.
I've had enough of judo. I've had enough of track and field, mom. You know, but this is what I'm saying. Whether I thought about it or I didn't think about it, could I? Could I have said that I didn't want it? You know when he picked you up as a baby and said, this baby is going to be an amazing football player, do you wish he said something else? It's a tough one. I don't know. I don't know because look at where I am. Look at what happened. Do you wish he added a sentence?
Honestly. It's just... It's just... When you hear what he said, that you can understand in a way exactly what we're going to talk about, obviously. Do I wish that he said something else? Not at that moment knowing my dad, but do I wish that he behave a certain way after? Yes. But what he said is what he said. You know, some people said different stuff and it didn't have an impact on your life or not. We're talking about it because I became a football player.
Or maybe if I didn't, I wouldn't have been here to tell you my story. also. So now what he said, it's okay. It's what came after that had an impact on me. He takes you out into the pitch. You're five or six years old. He gets you doing practice of kicking the ball, kicking the ball. I'm assuming at this time, because he's divorced your mother, your relationship with him, the center of your relationship sort of has this gravitates around football.
That is the relationship. Mainly. I know That's, you know, apart from holidays and, you know, I'm going to see him because at one point he went back to live in Guadeloupe. So I'm going to see him back there. Or I know I was seeing him at the weekend or he's coming to get me for training. So it's even, it's like a double thing. I know I see him a lot thanks to football. And I know if I want to make him happy, it will be through football. How did you know that?
Well, first and foremost, because he said it. And I knew what he said. I knew what he said because everyone told me after what he said. And the way he behaved, I knew, like, if I want to make him happy, it can only be that. And you wanted to make him happy. Yeah, it's, I think we had a discussion that talked about it, but yeah, it's, I always say, and I think I said it, what you fear will master you. So, my fear, and what was the most difficult thing for me to do as a man and as a player, ever, was to please my dad.
That was the hardest thing I had to deal with. To please my dad. And, As you can imagine, I heard it after. Jerry, you're great. Oh my God, oh my this, oh my that, oh from everybody or whatever. But the little me never heard it. It was always what I didn't do. So obviously you're always trying to get the nod, the approval, the you were great, oh, you know, you're progressing. It's always, no, you miss this, oh, you miss that. So for a very long time, Up until not that long ago, always my thing was to place people.
Because I never got that access. That access was never granted when I was young. On that subject, understand? Well, on that subject, I was always looking for that approval. Which when I was young, never came. At that age, do you then, almost without knowing it, start to associate your sense of self, your sense of worth with your performance on the pitch? Because it sounds like your father, maybe intentionally or unintentionally, has programmed this belief into you that if you do well on the pitch, then you are worthy.
Oh, you're lovable. I didn't even think about anything else and pleasing him. I wasn't even thinking about what he can do for me after. But because I was always trying to do that, then he carried on with everything. I never wanted to let my teammates down. I always wanted to please them. I always wanted to please the fans. I always wanted to please, because I grew up with wanting to please him. So I never stopped. You're looking for something that came from, obviously, what happened to you young.
So he helped me because at one point he works. He works with sports. Yeah. Because it's great to stay grounded. It's another day and it will be the best. So that at one point connected well. But technically, it didn't help the little me or it didn't help so much the human being. It did, to a degree, help the athlete. Because it works. Like, don't be, you know, too, too satisfied with what you have. Tomorrow's another day, you need to be good again.
So I was like, okay, I need to, I need to be the best. I need to please everybody again today. I need to, you know, my happiness and my sadness was always through people. Because I didn't know, I didn't know, you know, what used to make me sad or not sad. I was always through, you know, like, yo, you sad, oh. You happy? Yeah. You know, but me, I was always like kind of, I won't say dead. The word is not dead, but expressing my feelings was very difficult.
Apart rage and anger. Rage and anger is easy. Why? Because the same is something that I didn't do. So I'm getting upset. So it gives me fuel. Always. He helped the athlete, but he didn't help the human. What was the human missing? What should he have given? About everything. The human being was missing almost everything. But you need to understand, Stephen, like, I started to, I left my house, I was 13. You know, people don't realize that. Who are you?
Who are you at 13 years old? You leave your house. And you're already dealing with the pressure of succeeding because you're trying to enter Clairefontaine. So already here is competition. What is Clairefontaine for people that don't know? Clairefontaine is a preschool, pre-formation. You have to pass four. So one weekend you come, they take the best 20. Then they do the same in a round not far from Paris. Then the weekend after that, you have the 20 from that place, 20 from that place, 20 from Paris.
Then... You bring it down to 40, you bring it down to 20, and eventually, obviously, the 20 goes to that school of Clairefontaine to teach you how to play football. And you go to school from, by the way, 8 to 3. After that, you play football. For people that don't know as well, because I was reading about Clairefontaine, it's considered to be the elite sort of academy in France. I read that around 1,600 trial for the program, and out of which 23 are selected per year.
So this is like the SAS of football in France. It is, and a lot of players come from there. If I give you me, Anelka, Mbappe, Gallas... You know, we, you know, Papin, I don't know if you remember Jean-Pierre Papin, but a lot of players came from that academy. So my friend in our team here is French, and he was with us in Paris when we first met. And he said, if you go to Clairefontaine, your chance of becoming a professional footballer is like 95%.
It's like 90%. It's like, that's the elite. Yes, but in 95, yeah, you have a chance, but not a lot of those guys. It's still very minimum, the guys that made it. The guys that went there, still very minimum. This is why the usual 2% succeeds in 1998 don't. To be part of the 2%, it's very difficult. But to go back to what we were saying... it does have an impact on a human being because you didn't have a normal young life. It's not the same. What you're exposed to right from the start is very difficult to deal with.
There was no time to be a child, it sounds like. No, not at all. And like I said, you don't think about it. I think about it now. This is why I said to you, I can now see that the human being is missing a lot. Have you learned a lot of these insights from watching your kids get to just play and be kids? I use that line often. You know, I got educated and my kids are re-educating me. You know, my kids... save me. They are saving me every day. Every day I see something new.
They're teaching me to be a dad, a better dad. Not a better dad than my dad. This is what I'm saying. Myself, a better dad. And they're opening doors that I didn't know how to deal with. You know, it's very... You know, sometimes when you like... I can see sometimes when they look at me, how much they love me and how much like they, they, they like, Oh dad. But if they only knew, actually I look at them the same way, you know, thanks for being here because, because he would have been tough.
Cause I, you know, as an, as an athlete, you know, As long as you stay within that frame, you can feed whatever you need to feed to satisfy that little thing that you have, your ego, you're avoiding your problems. Because you prefer to be the athlete than the human being. Because then the athlete, it's easier. You know what to do. Well, I knew what to do. Even if it was painful, whatever, I knew what to do. This is why when you go there, you're like, oh no.
So it's easy for a little while when you have your career. But I think you remember that as an, as a, as an athlete, and I say it and I will maintain it. You die when you stop. The athlete, a competitor dies. I can never play again in the Prem. I can never play for France anymore. I don't care what people say. You can play football. None of that level. Not competing the way I used to compete. And that part of me died. So people don't teach you to die.
So now you are going to face all your problems. because you could put them on the side because you're playing games, because you have other things that will cover that. But once everything stops, we're not used to be at home. We're not used to deal with a normal life. Since I'm 13, I never had a normal life. Understand me well, I'm not complaining. I'm just saying to go back to the real world. It's a shock to the system. because you're actually technically not equipped to live in that world.
It's an interesting comparison to make, but when you hear people talk in these terms, you think of someone that had been incarcerated in jail, or you think of someone that went off to maybe the military and then returned after war to a normal life and couldn't sort of acclimatize to what it meant to just sit in silence alone. Um... And in many respects, although those examples are quite extreme in many cases, your experience of being a football player since sort of five years old, being drafted into this elite academy at 13 years old, and then spending the rest of your career in sort of institutions...
where high-performance institutions, where, as you say, you were distracted from having to think about being a human, and you were an athlete. Your identity was an athlete. Your expectations were based on being an athlete. Your sense of validation came from being an athlete. And suddenly, boom. It's over. Look, actors often... go into depression or problem when they go into a character for a movie. Because at one point, they don't know who they are anymore.
They become that character. So when you put that cape as a player for more than 20 years, and you have to be... what you have to be for people because you might transcend them because of what you transmit, the feeling that you have of your club and with the fans. That, that, that, that, you know, that almost like, you're like, yeah, I belong when I had to fit in for a very long time. Now I belong. When that goes, can't wear that cape anymore. And when you wear that cape, you feel different and responsibilities, performing, losing, winning, doesn't matter, but you know the next day what you need to do in order to compete.
Put the cape on. When you leave that cape, it's like you're naked. Oh, wait, I'm going to admit it. Now they see my weakness. They see my things. You see your weakness. You feel it. It's different. You know, when it's like whatever it is for you, that's when you put your cap, you're like, okay, you know, put it down. You're like, oh, I don't like that so much, you know? So how do you deal with that? I mean, when I say you die, obviously it's strong.
Understand me well with what's happening in the world at a minute. Maybe it is strong to say, but that part of me died, never come back. That can never come back. A singer can sing. You can have your concert up until I can't play anymore. You have to deal with that. And that, it's tough to deal with. It's tough to deal with because that's your medicine. You can't take it anymore. So there's another life. Obviously, it's not the end. But you need to learn how to be at home, to connect with your missus, to connect with your kids.
Because the way of connecting before was very minimal. when you think about it. You're never at home. So now you arrive at home when you stop your career, you're like a guest. But that's what you do, you guys, when I used to play. You know? It's not, understand me well. I'm not complaining. I'm not saying, you know, people have, you know, I understand. I'm just trying to explain what I went through, what I'm going through. Arson became... it seems from reading your story, a bit of a substitute father for you at one point.
When you moved to AS Monaco after Clairefontaine? Yeah. So you were 17 years old when you moved there. Arsene's the manager at Monaco at the time. Does he, because this relationship you have with Arsene, it, you know, that time you go off to Monaco, I think there's a little bit of a sort of a disconnect from your father in some way. Is that accurate? Yeah. Yeah, well, The thing is, how do you tell your dad that he needs to step aside in order for me to have my career?
It's my life. When he did everything for you at that moment, as a dad, by the way. But how do you make him understand that now I need to fly alone? Is that a conversation? Is it? No, it wasn't a conversation. No, it wasn't. That never happened. It just... I made him understand. You made him understand. Yeah. The look, the... You know, making sure that he was understanding that he couldn't come anymore. But, you know, if he's asking me for some tickets, I wasn't maybe sending them at times or stuff like that, you know, because talking...
was tough. So you indirectly rejected him? Yeah, you do. You do. You do. No, it's not rejecting, but it was too much at one point. What was too much? The pressure of pleasing him, the constant, he was always there, which was good, don't get me wrong. But it's like for everybody, you're not going to be always on top of your kids in whatever day, because at the end of the day, you don't help them. I needed to make mistakes by myself. Have you got specific memories of when you thought you played well, but he just...
Oh, so many. I mean, that one also is very famous in France. People still talk to me about it. They still, when they see me in the street, they say the name of the team that I played against. Yeah, it's a very famous one. It's a true story. We played a game. I was 15. Already then you can see if someone is kind of good or not good. We won the game 6-0. I scored six goals. And on the way back, you know, so I stepped out of the... of the game. And I knew, I'm sure you're the same.
If I'm, if I was like this, I swear, you believe me or you don't believe me, the aura of my dad, I knew, even without looking at him, if, if, if the man was happy or not. So if you're turned around, you can feel him. Even before, like it was that powerful. You could just feel his energy. I could feel it. And he wasn't happy. I, I, I, I turn and I saw it. I can tell you any posture. And I knew if he was happy or not happy or whatever. So we arrive in the car, you know, silence.
§02Transcript — part 2
So I'm like, shall I talk? Shall I not talk? Okay. Okay. you know. So, yeah, that's exactly how we were. So he goes like, you're happy? So I'm like, what shall I answer? Yeah. Yeah, but you shouldn't because you miss that thing. You miss that thing. You miss that control. You miss that cross. You miss that this. You miss that that. You miss that. Then I arrive at my mom's house. I always remember he dropped me at my mom's house. I go up and I'm walking like this.
And my mom is like, did you lose? I said, no, we won 6-0. And I scored the six goals. And then she looked at me going in. It was often like that. Why was he doing that, in your view? I don't know. Like I always say, you know, I try to come to terms with it. But you need to understand something. Like, My dad never read. My dad never traveled. My dad knows only one way, his way and what he's been told. And if I compare how I've been brought up to how he's been brought up, there's a world.
So for him, he already... you know, put that down. So you can't be upset with someone that tries to do his best and educate you with his tools. I don't have the same tools. My box of tools has more tools and my kids will have more tools than me. So you can't, you know, you can't be upset with that one. You have to come to terms with How it was, that's how it was. Now, you need to accept it. But digesting it is when it becomes tricky. Because you can always accept everything.
But the impact that it has on you after, it's on you to deal with that. The values he gave you and you learned growing up up until you ultimately move on to Juventus and Arsenal, the values that made you successful in hindsight when you look back, what are those values that are transferable to any industry or any discipline that put you where you are? Because listen, people... People can be born with great genetics, they can be born with whatever, but that isn't enough.
It's been proven time and time again that that isn't enough to reach the highest of the highs and have a statue of yourself, you know, over there in London. There's got to be a mindset, a character or values underneath there that creates that legend. There are so many things that I understood. You talk about Al-Saint, a lot of guys that I came across in my career helped me develop something that was in me. I do believe that we all have something in.
Now, are we going to develop it? It's a different ballgame. As you know, my upbringing was rough, strict. But it can go both ways. Yeah. It can make you or break you. I decided it was going to make me. But I had to put my dad on the side at one point. I had to put everybody on the side at one point. And concentrate to the path. Now we're talking about, it's a different topic now. We're going to talk about what I became and the in-bracket animal I became when I was a player.
That's a different ballgame. That comes with seeing Dennis Bergkamp every morning working hard. That comes with seeing all those players at one step working hard. And I'm looking at it and I'm like, how am I going to move those guys? If you add, obviously, what my dad gave me, never be satisfied. Do more. It's always what you didn't do well. You know, obviously, I had a certain attribute. I was fast. That's the only attribute I had when I was young.
I was fast. You have guys that are technical or see the game or whatever, awareness or whatever. I was just fast. So I had to work really hard. And I know people will say, oh, my God, okay, that cliche sentence. No. I had to work really hard every day. My left foot was poor. I had to forget about it. And I still didn't manage to be better during my career. I got a tiny bit better. But I worked free kicks. I couldn't take a free kick. Anything. You know, repetition is key.
Repetition, I always say, creates habits. So I knew I wasn't as gifted as so many players, although I did everything that you're supposed to do. I went to Clairfontaine, I played under 15 France, under 16, under 17, under 18, under 19, under 21, first team. So people, when they see my path, they always go like, yeah, I mean, it was always going to be. No, not true. Not true. I always had to battle, but... When you knew that the hardest thing I had to do was to please my dad, the rest was nothing for me.
in brackets, not disrespecting anything that happened in my career. But that was so easy compared to what I had to do in order to please the old man. And my young self is still waiting for that approval. Still? Yeah. I'm trying to connect with the little man. He said, you know, I'm going to a different discussion now, but I'm still trying, I'm trying to connect with the little man. But You go back, I go back to, sorry, to what you asked me. What did it teach me is obviously to never give up, do more.
But there's something that was missing that I understood late. And I think for me, the best leader you can be, the leader or the greatest leader do have that. And I was missing that for a very long time, which in sport, because you have to play a game and you have to, you're not here to, you know, oh, you have a problem or let's have a talk about it. You know, when you play, you play. It's tough during a season, it's tough during a game and stuff.
But vulnerability and empathy was missing. Those are the two greatest points of a leader for me. When you show vulnerability and obviously you show empathy, you can go places. You can go places because if your group knows that you're like them and they can relate, although you might be hard as you know what, they will follow you. But in football, because of how it is, because it is taboo sometimes to be vulnerable, it is taboo to show emotion. You know, the emotion, that emotion, the crying, the this, the that, especially in my time in a dressing room, you couldn't say anything.
It's a bit more accepted now if you say I'm not well mentally. And thank God for that, by the way. but all the above that you can imagine for me it was always trying to be the best version that I can be every day did you think you were going to be the player you become no how do you how do you how do you look I just wanted to please my dad how am I going to think that I if I saw it I'm going to have a statue in front of the the Emirates I mean how Even when you were playing at Arsenal and you were winning them golden boots and you were winning everything and the invincibles and all of that, you were still trying to please your dad?
At your core. In a way, yeah. I couldn't see it. That constant look of, to not name a movie, the pursuit of happiness or the pursuit of pleasing people. I love that movie. So I'm... Yeah, but that was my, that's, it's kind of weird when I always say when your medicine is your poison, because you always chase that. Were you happy? I don't know. I never asked myself that question. I couldn't care less. I just couldn't care less. Like you saw it. I mean, you saw me play, so I couldn't care less.
You saw me. My face was always hard. It was always, you know, I could smile. It's funny, I always say, and this is why I always say to people. And in France, they used to have a go at me because I never used to celebrate my goals. I always used to... Stand in a stoic manner, way, or always proud or rage. But people never used to see. When I used to give an assist, I always used to smile. Pleasing. Watch, assist, smile, goal, rage. It's weird, huh?
But pleasing again. Giving. Was always smiling. You see, even now I smile. But goal? No. Goal was just like, that's what you had to do, man. Because you're making the player that you've given the goal happy, I guess. You're giving them. It's interesting because people who grew up in environments where they had a parent or parents that they were trying to please often tend to exhibit two traits. One of them is being an empath. The term empath is like being so emotionally sensitive to how everyone's feeling in every room all the time.
Because that started at a young age with, you know, constantly, you know. And then the second is people pleasing. And they always say people pleasing start with trying to please one or more of their parents. And it's funny, there's a cliche about comedians, right? Comedians, whenever I sit with a comedian, the question is always, which one of your parents was depressed? Which one of the parents were you trying to put a smile on their face? And this is cliche that comedians are depressed.
Whereas when I've interviewed comedians, they say, no, no, no, no, no. It's my dad that was depressed. And at four, I was trying to make him smile. And it's so interesting that in your case as well, it was a very similar thing. This question though... Like, all these great achievements, you know, won the World Cup, you know, the Invincible team, all these trophies, the height, the peak of your powers. And you can't tell me whether you were happy or not.
No, because for me, I did what I had to do. When you went home, though, when you went home after a great game, you get home. If I'm a fly on the wall in that room, do I see a man that's happy? Yes, for a little while. And then you, because that's how the game is, you know, I was talking about Gerard Clichet, which is my assistant, and I, you know, played at Man City and Arsenal with me. The other day, we were in camp with the national team, obviously being my assistant.
He said to me, Thierry, do you remember what you did one day? I'm like, I don't know, man. He said, we won the league. So he won the league with us when we stayed invincible. He said to me, okay, where was the party tonight? We're going and everything. I said, I'm not going to no party tonight. He said, yeah, but everybody's going. I said, yeah, but I'm not everybody. Stayed home. He said, why? I said, we have the euro. We're going home. Everyone went to the party.
I didn't. So understand. For me, it was like, hey, I have the euro. Just the next thing. Yeah. So you tend at one point not to enjoy it while you're playing. That was my way. Was it the right way or not? I don't know, but it was mine. So Gal was like, you were crazy. I said, I don't know if I was crazy. But that's how it was. For me, I have the euro. I need to concentrate for the euro. So I didn't go. Which sometimes can be seen as a guy that keeps himself to himself or doesn't want to belong in the team?
Well, I surely did when I was on the field. For me, that's the only thing that matters. Are you going to cover me? We don't have to be friends after that. It goes back to what you were taught to value, though. You weren't taught to value party, celebration, happiness. You were taught to value... performance on the pitch. You have to perform. And so I said to you, when you put that cape, that's what is asked of you. Then, when I arrived towards the end of my career, I realized something that was big and something I was missing.
I always thought that titles mattered. And yes, they do. But I always thought that that's the only thing that mattered. When it's not true. It's not true. It's how you, as I mentioned before, it's how you transcend and what you can transmit and also how you inspire people. That matters. And I never thought about it when I was playing. Again, because I didn't have those tools. Also. When you went off to Barcelona, an adjustment period took place, and you were married at the time, and then you went through a divorce.
This question of love comes back into the picture. You know, if you'd grown up in that household where your parents got divorced when you were seven or eight years old, you know, you look back, who taught you? And then you were in academy at 13. So you get married, marriage falls apart when you're in Barcelona. And then you get married, Who taught you how to be in a relationship?
Nobody. What's a lover woman? Nobody. You deal with it. You learn. You fail. Again, you mentioned it. I arrived at Barcelona. I arrived injured. I was divorcing, adapting to a new life, new language, new team, new way of playing. People don't care. I don't ask people to care, by the way, because that's how it is. But it's not easy. It was tough. It was tough. Don't see, you don't, you know, I couldn't see my daughter for a little while. You know, and people expect you to perform.
So what do you do? You put the cape on. Put the cape on. Because that's the only way. Okay, you put the cape on. You're like, okay. And you do feel that everything goes away. It's a feeling, though. It's an impression. It's a lie. But when I put that cape on, I feel like you can't see that I'm hurt. I feel like you can't see, because now people see the player. So in a weird way, you want people to know, and you want people to know how you feel, that you're not equipped right now to perform.
And in the same time, you put it on because you don't want them to know. Do you understand what I mean? A hundred percent. It's kind of weird. You're like, you know what? Let me put the cape on and then they will attack the player. You want help, but you don't want to ask for help. You do, but you don't. It's kind of weird. You want someone to go like, oh, this is what's happening to him. And you're like, thank you. but you don't want to say it.
What were the symptoms? You said the word hurt. If I, again, if I was a flower on the wall in that room in Barcelona when you were alone, what was going on in your head? Well, just imagine I like to please people and everything, everywhere was a no, no. I wasn't playing well. You're divorcing. So I'm feeling I'm letting my daughter down. I'm listening to fans down. I'm listening to letting my friends down, myself down, everybody down. Just imagine how I am.
I'm wanting to please people. And it wasn't happening. So, tough. Cape on, cape off, tough. But the easiest way to deal with it was to put the cape on. When the cape's not on, what are your thoughts saying to you at that time? Well, you kind of, as a human being, like, did I make the right choice? You know, and I said it, I think that, At that particular moment, football wasn't really my priority. If the cape was on, obviously. But even before, when the cape wasn't on, it was still football.
You need to race, you need to do this, you need to do that. But there, it wasn't because it's actually technically, and this is not me having a go at my dad or the relationship or anything. But I was like, you know when you swear that if you get married, you never get divorced because, you know, and you know very little about life, obviously. And I was like, I know this is exactly what happened to me or what's happening to me. What are you doing?
You're repeating. Yeah, to yourself, like, you know, you kind of like, what are you doing? This is why I said, I say it so many times, and I will say it again, my biggest fear is not to be a good dad. And so I was, in my mind, that doesn't mean, it's not because you're going to divorce, you're going to be a bad dad. But in my mind, I'm letting people down. I'm a bad dad. I'm a bad whatever. Do you understand what I mean? My way of thinking, I'm like, and that's my biggest fear.
Still, still now is to, to, to, to, you know, because I'm learning to be a dad. Like everybody, by the way, because, you know, that's, that's, but, you know, some dolls I didn't have, some emotions I didn't have. I wasn't often at home And still not often at home. When did you, what was the moment when you realized that your playing career was behind you? You know, you obviously went off to America for a while and then you transferred to the New York Red Bulls.
And then you retired at sort of 37 years old. But was there a moment where you realized a day where you thought, you know what? I'm not going to be on the pitch as a professional player anymore. Yeah, there was a day, and you might laugh, but my daughter was at home in New York. I suffered of Achilles problem for more than 10 years, both sides. I was in pain every morning, really. Pain. Pain was never going away. All day, both sides, both of my achilles.
Just, I just, sometimes I felt a bit better. Sometimes, no, but every morning I was in pain afternoon, night for 10 years. So I'm at home with my daughter and she comes, she comes close to me and she touches me and she goes, you hit. And she ran. I wanted to run. I couldn't. I wanted to run. I couldn't. I looked at her. I said, hey, you won. I couldn't chase her. And I stopped. I went, what are you doing? Like, I couldn't, I just couldn't. I'm not even joking, Stephen.
She ran, and I just couldn't move. What are you doing? That's when I knew I couldn't handle pain anymore. Because this is why it is. People forget about anything that you can think of. You need to love pain to be an athlete. Yes. And I know no pain, no this, whatever, all the, you know, the... The correct sense. Oh my... No, this is real. You need to love pain. However, mentally, physically, love it. You need to love it. If not, stay where you are.
And then you retire eventually at 37 years old from professional football. What happens then? I... I was in a way happy. I'll tell you why. Because I stopped. Some people stopped because of injuries. Some people stopped because of different stuff. I stopped. It wasn't my terms. I stopped. You know, it's better. And people were like, Terry, you still can play. Oh, I knew I could still play. But I stopped. So I didn't have a problem with stopping.
Like, you know, the fear that day? I didn't have a problem with that. But I didn't know what was going to come after. You prepare yourself, you pass your badges, you know, you prepare yourself mentally and whatnot. But then, how do you fit the competitor? How do you fit the guy that loves to please? When he can do it or not every three days? How? When did you... know that you were struggling? When I was aware, because the cape was always my thing to make sure that when I felt the struggle coming, cape.
So I knew it before, but I was lying to myself or I was going to make sure that that feeling wasn't going to go too far. So I put the cape on. But then when you're not a player anymore, you can't put that cape anymore. So then everything starts to creep in, you know, you think, you go back to what happened, what you became, how you were with people, how you behaved with people, were you a good guy, not a good guy, was it necessary sometimes, not necessary, you start to replay everything in your head on how you were, what you did, the pact you had on people, the pact that you had on yourself.
what type of person you want to be for your kids. And that's when it becomes scary because you don't have the answers. Because usually you have the answers for everything. Terry tomorrow, oh, that guy, okay, I'm going to work out on that. Work on this. Going to be better next weekend. I'm going to work on this. I'm going to work on that. Don't worry about it. Going to work, you know what, next year you'll see. I come back. My left foot is going to be sound.
My this, my this, my this, my that. I had answers. Now all I had is questions. That's about it. Too many questions, brain, thinking, overthinking. And when you overthink, usually you don't go to the positive thinking. When you overthink, you tend to bring yourself down. And whatever wasn't good in your life, you try to find a way to make sure that you can cover it. But Kep wasn't around anymore. So how do you do that? Were you sad? No. No, sad, no.
No, sad would not be the word. I wasn't sad, but I was trying to find an explanation of what happened to me, regardless of what it is, because I'm a guy that likes to have an explanation. They need to know why. And when you cannot answer it, it is annoying. I find that annoying when I cannot. And not everything has an explanation, but this is the way I am. I always need to have a logical or illogical explanation. Even if your explanation is not logical, explain something to me.
So when I cannot understand and comprehend what's happening to me, it's a tough one. What's happening to you in that moment post-retirement or what happened to you in your career? Everything. Everything came at once, especially during COVID time. Because that's when I really stopped. Because again, I was trying to find a way to find that cape. So you pass your badges. You're becoming a coach. You try to do something to make sure that you're not going to think about what's been chasing me for a very long time.
When are you going to deal with what happened to you? Whatever it is, to you, to me, to whoever. But we tend to run together. instead of facing our problems. That's what we do all the time. You stay busy, you try to avoid the problem or not think about it, but then COVID happened. And when COVID happened, What are you running? Where are you running? What are you doing? I was, you know, isolated in Montreal for a year. Not for a year, I would say, you know, whenever the, you know, three months and another two months or whatever it was, and not being able to see my kids for a year was tough.
was tough because, I mean, it's the title, right? So I don't need to even explain that one. But yeah, it was tough because something like that had to happen to me for me to understand vulnerability, empathy, crying. You know, understand that emotions are emotion, just don't become it. You know, anger is normal. Jealousy is normal, but don't become jealous. Anger is normal. Don't become angry. You know, I couldn't, I couldn't like, if I, before, if I feel anger, man, I become angry.
If I was a, again, the question I asked earlier, if I was a fly on the wall in quarantine watching you, what would I have seen? Me crying almost every day for no reason. Tears were coming alone. Why? I don't know. But maybe they were there for a very long time. I was crying for everything. Everything. I'm watching a movie that's not even really sad, but I'm crying. You know, everything. I don't know if that needed to come out. I don't know if... You know, it was weird.
In a good way. In a good way, there was some stuff that I couldn't control. And to be fair, I didn't try to control them. And I couldn't hide them. I couldn't suppress them. And do you want even to suppress them, really? But you've been told since you're young, whether it was at home or in your job, don't be that guy, man. Don't show that you're vulnerable. If you cry, what are they going to think? Which is... It's not the end of the world. But for me, when I was young, I saw someone crying.
I'm like, what are you doing, man? You know, I'm like, really? Type of thing. So it was, yeah, you would have seen me crying. You would have seen me. Technically, it wasn't me. It wasn't me. It was the young me. It was me. I understand what I'm saying. But it was the young Thierry there. What was he crying for? Well, for everything he didn't get, approval. It's kind of weird to say that approval. I got that. I still get that all the time. But I didn't want to hear it.
You know, it wasn't like it was coming, but not feeding my little man. So my little man at one point took control of that body. And it was tough. You know, you need to have the balance. This is what I'm trying to do now, to have the balance between me and my inner child, which is not an easy one. This is why I always say to people, once you have that discussion with that little guy inside you, it's scary, man. It is scary because what he's going to tell you is everything that you didn't want to hear or trying to avoid for a very long time.
And he took control. And what did he tell you? That's be yourself, be human. Show who you are, really. Stop fronting, stop lying. Because we're liars. We pretend. We live in a world right where, let's all be honest, we live in a world where we've both been told, do not judge the book by its cover, right? We do the total opposite. Every day we do the total opposite. Go and try to find a job with a tracksuit. And you arrive with your hood on, walk in, and see if they're going to receive you.
But we've been told since we're young, right, Stephen? Do not judge the book by its cover. That's a lie. That's all we do. Our appearances matter. And then we keep on saying to our kids, no, the look doesn't matter. Really? Look doesn't matter. Let's all be honest. It does. We want to pretend or think that we are saying the right things because it looks cool. But when it comes to do it, it is a different story. Look, we go, you know, this is why I like the movie Black Panther.
You know, when he's in the museum and the girl says, what are you doing here? I said, that's from my village. What are you talking about? So we have stuff that have been in the world stolen for however it was, however it happened or whatever, that are in museums that maybe you're from that part and you can't go in because you're not dress real or because people are making money out of those things. And, you know, what are we doing? What are we talking about?
And we're sitting here trying to say all the time, pretending or whatever it is. it's a bit all false. So you tag along, you play the game, but that has an impact. I remember the first time I experienced something that would be considered a mental health issue. And I remember almost the shame I felt because... I never thought that as a young CEO at the age of 21, I always had to be the tough guy, but also I always thought those mental health challenges happened to other people.
So there was almost a bit of struggle with my own sort of shame and accepting my own vulnerability that, and like, do I talk to someone about this or do I keep it to myself? When you're in that room in COVID and you're crying every day and you don't know why, at that point, do you have someone that you can talk to about how you're feeling truly and be a hundred percent honest with how you're feeling all these years later, you must've been more sort of 40, 40 in your forties.
Yeah. It was a 2020. Yeah. It's look, it's tough. It's tough because, you know, I'm trying to bring myself there. Um, It's very difficult because I don't know who the human being was. Like, I don't know. I just didn't know. Like I said to you, I go back. I didn't have those doors. I didn't have those tools. I didn't know... I just didn't know. Everything was new for me. That part of my body, those dolls that I didn't have before, the understanding of that side of the game.
When I say the game, talking about life, obviously, dealing with love. And it was weird. Weird. My way of dealing with love was like, you know, like I said, pleasing again, like, you know, giving presence to people. Oh my God, I'm happy. Then I asked myself that question. What makes you happy, Thierry? Oof. What makes you happy? Obviously my kids, but again, it's my kids. What makes you happy? I had zero answer. Zero. Zero. So, you know, when you, it's kind of weird because when you look at it, this is what I would like to achieve, but it's virtually impossible.
Whether you act with your brain or you act with your heart. And at times, both feels good, especially with your heart, because it brings in different emotions. And when you act with your brain, it's a bit more, no, I'm not doing it. Here it's like, let's see what's going to happen, right? But both, if you can balance, right, your... and the way you act. And you can walk on the rope, you know, like the funeral, we call them. Tightrope. Tightrope, yes.
And you are walking on there in harmony with your inner child, connected, balancing, decision with your heart and decision with your brain. That will be the, that's in my head, the image of the perfect human being. You walking on a tight rope with your inner child, balancing decision with your brain and with your heart. Because if you go too much, that side, you're going to fall. Although you are in harmony with your inner child. If you go that way, you're also going to fall, which we all know it's impossible.
But that's... You know, so I had to, in my head, create that picture. I have the tattoo of it, by the way. But I had to create that picture in order to see what I'm aiming for. I needed that. I needed something. You know, before it was, you're trying to please your dad, whether I was aware or not aware of it. It doesn't matter. It was in me. What am I trying to do now? What is it? So I had to draw something. In that room, did you know, if I was in a room in the pandemic and I'd been, you know, the superstar athlete, and then I find myself in a situation where I'm crying in the hotel or in the room, are you self-diagnosing?
Do you understand what that is at the time? No, but I had to do it. So the body, okay, the body does heal itself. whether it's going to be beautiful or not, it will eventually, in a certain way, heal itself. And even if you walk in a weird way after, you will walk, your body will readjust or not. Why can you not heal yourself alone mentally? To a certain degree, because you need help. I understand that. But this is what I'm saying. If you're exposed to something different, for so long, it would have an impact on you.
But somehow along the way, you did adapt to it. Like you will adapt to living in a hot country or in a cold country. I go and said, how can you live here? You're like, I grew up here, man. So I got used to it. That doesn't mean it's okay. But you do, in a way, adapt to it. Or you learn how to live with it or you don't. So I did learn how to live with it with a lot of impact on me, as you can see, with a lot of consequences that I'm still trying to deal with.
§03Transcript — part 3
But yes, you do self-deal with it or self-diagnose yourself without realizing it. Did you, it sounds like you were struggling with a form of depression when you were in that phase of your life. Did you know that that's what it was? No, that's impossible. I don't know. I didn't know. In hindsight, do you think that's what it was? I would like to think so. But how do I know? Because I don't know the signals. Like, I cannot tell you that I was or wasn't.
I don't know the signals. Right. Like, I don't know. The chief said to me right now, I don't know. Like, if you give me any of the signals, not any of it, let me tell you, anger, this and that. Yeah, oh yeah, I wasn't good at me. Yeah. Were you, I'm like... But how you've heard people characterize it now and describe it now, does that... Yeah, it does ring a bell, more than a bell. But was it, you know, look, I'm a human being. So I have feelings.
Throughout my career and since I was born, I must have been in depression. Did I know it? No. Did I do something about it? Obviously, no. But I adapted to a certain way. That doesn't mean I'm walking straight. But I'm walking. You got to put one foot on another one and walk straight. That's what I've been told since I'm young. And it doesn't matter where you're from. It doesn't matter what you do. It doesn't matter your job. You got to walk. You got to stand.
No matter how rough the sea is, whatever it is, you got to stand and walk. And people have way harder life than I had, obviously. But I'm just saying it doesn't matter. You have to get up and walk. So do I realize, because I never stopped walking, then maybe I would have realized, COVID, I stopped walking. Because I couldn't put a foot... After. And again, I couldn't. I just couldn't, Stephen. So that's why I was like, oh, I need to pause. Then you start to realize, then you start to have a thing.
Then you start to whatever. I know it's kind of a cliche one. You need to stand. It's not how you fall. It's how you stand. Yeah, we all know, right? Not trying to be, you know, clever here. But I've been told, you know, keep on walking. I say this because your story brings to light a bunch of statistics that I've, I was reading about as it relates to mental health. Someone dies by suicide in the UK every 90 minutes. 76% of these are male. 25 attempts for every death.
Single biggest cause of death for men under the age of 45 is suicide. Single biggest cause of death for 15 to 49 year olds. 19 to 35-year-olds are twice as likely to report being in the crowd. These stats are absolutely shocking. And almost 80% of this is men. It's the crazy stat that people always talk about. The single biggest cause of death if you're under the age of 45. I will, this is, please, this is not a sexist thing or whatever. I don't want to enter the battle, men, women.
This is not where I'm going. But it's not easy to be a man. That sheer pressure. And it is. And the stats, you know, will tell you. And I keep on saying, I don't know. This is not me trying to say that I thought about it or whatever. Not at all. Not that. But I told you that there are, I'm sure you remember. My kids saved me. And I'm not saying that just like that, but literally, I'll explain. Yeah, I'll explain. I don't know where I was going mentally.
I don't know. Really, I don't know where I was going. Because when I came back from COVID-19, come back home I didn't see because after that year we were allowed back home but then I knew if I was going back to Montreal I don't know what was happening with COVID if I was going to not see my kids for a year or whatever so I'm at home next thing you know it's a month whatever I packed my bags I was about to leave again So I said bye to my kids. Everybody was there.
And do you remember when I told you my young me never got any approval, never got any recognition, no, how can I explain that? No love in brackets apart from the, you know, the we have food, we have this, but it was never hugging or saying or nodding or any approval like that. pack my bag. I'm like, okay, daddy's about to leave. Next thing you know, I put my bags down and everyone starts to cry. So I put my bags down to say bye to everybody and everybody starts to cry.
From the nanny to my girlfriend, to the kids, everybody was crying. And then Stephen, for the first time, for the first time, and I know people who say, oh my God, Terry, for the first time, because at that moment, it was the little me that felt it. I'm like, oh, they see me. Not the football player, not the accolades, not the... And I felt human. Not, you know, me always trying to please people because, oh, you play football, or you can put your cape on, or this is why they like you.
That's what they want to see. They want to see a guy that's strong, a guy that's going to perform, transmit, transcend, inspire, and do both. So be that guy. Okay, boom, let's do it again today. Let's do it again today. But for the first time that day, I was like, They see me. They were crying because you were leaving. Yeah. But they were crying for me. They were not happy or crying for the athlete. Understand me well. I'm not saying they didn't before.
I never realized it. I felt it the first time there. And my little me for the first time got fed with love. my bags down, I told you, and I stayed. I stopped coaching in Montreal. I said, what am I doing? What am I doing? Going to go again into a situation just because your pursuit of pleasing people and stuff and stuff. They love Thierry, the kids. Not Thierry Henry. They love Thierry. So I stayed. And for the first time, and I'm not scared to say it, I felt human.
I felt like they saw me. Like the human being. I was like, well, that feels nice. It feels really nice. This is why I said my kid saved me. So I don't know where I was going. I don't know if I was going to obviously go back, not see them again. I don't know where mentally that would have brought me. I don't actually know. But that day, a special day for me because... Because yeah, what they did fed my little me. And you know when you've been looking for something for so long, but you don't know what it was?
Mm-hmm. You just don't know. It's annoying. It's like you're looking for something. You know you're looking for something, but you don't know what it is. And you've been thrown a lot of things. No, that's not it. No, that's not it. No, that's not it. That's still not it. Still not it. And then out of nowhere, when I wasn't looking for anything, it came. But it was right in front of you the whole time. Yeah, was I open enough to say it though? That's the thing.
Was I, you know, this is why COVID, you know, made me, you know, my vulnerability, empathy, understanding those emotions. So the doors were there. So suddenly when that happened, oh, I was like, oh, that door. Well, that's a new door. That's nice. Open. Boom. Done. Before, like, maybe that happened before and I never felt it. If you know what I mean. It's kind of weird, but I felt it that day though. And it did resonate. And you quit working in Montreal?
Yeah. Straight away. Straight away? It reminds me, I got a flashback to speaking to Patrice. Patrice Evra. Patrice Evra grew up in the south of France, I believe, rough area. No, same town as me. Oh, same town? Yeah. South of Paris, same town. We're from the same town. Saint-Ulysse. Patrice is a good friend of mine, and he told me, he shared it publicly on this podcast before, that I think he was 40 years old, and his... partner at the time kept asking him like, are you okay?
Are you okay? Are you okay? And then one day she's at home, they're having a little bit of a tiff and she turns to him and goes, Patrice, are you, are you happy? And he looked at her and he burst into tears, cried for the first time in his life. And it sounds like a similar moment, a similar sort of unlocking him. It was the first time in his life he could ever show that emotion. And he said, it was that moment, the first time I ever cried, first time I ever showed her emotion, because up until then I'd been a tough guy.
And it was just a question asked at the right moment, the right question from the right person that inspired him to boom. And he says, that's the moment that unlocked his emotions. And obviously he's on a journey as well with it. No, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Patrice. Look, it's... Yeah, this is why I literally say that they saved me because I don't know where I was going. I really don't know. I really don't know, but... Like I said, it's very difficult for me to compare to the way I was before and why you worked in bracket then and not before.
Because I was blind. Like I said so many times, you know, I could see, so for example, you put me on the field, I see solutions. Because I used to see the game with my brain, not with my eyes. I'll explain. You have dimensions on the field. Right? Right? It's a rectangle, yeah. If you put your head up, what can stop you? This is why great players always pass the ball in the air. You know, when they arrive by the box, they lift it. How do you defend the air?
You can't defend the air. Hmm. So I always used to say, you can't pass me because they think that the line is there, right? I used to chip the ball over your leg. Of course I can pass you, you can't defend the air. 20 billion people defending me. If you hold the line, ball in behind, you're dead. Not on the ground, in the air. So I used to see the game with my brain. I see life with my eyes. And eyes can be pretty deceiving. So, you know, I see obstacles.
You see with your brain, you're like, okay, how can, oh, I can go through there. Okay, no problem. But life, I used to see it, I'm trying to change, obviously. I used to see it with my eyes. So no, no, no. But when it came to competing, I was like, it's impossible that you can stop me. So, okay. Oh, okay. That's the solution. You sound like a man that's been to therapy. Because you use terminology that I've typically heard from therapists. Things like the inner child.
No, that's something that I've seen since I'm young. Oh, really? I always knew that I was disconnected with my little self. And the thing is, that's how I used to play. Disconnected. No, it's just, you know, since I'm young, like I see a solution. Like if someone says, we can't do this, I'm like, why? Why? It's like, you know, I mean, you saw me play. I used to come in midfield and take the ball and go, I'm going to go. And at a particular moment, Anyone will go like, oh, it's impossible.
It's 1v9. And I explained this so many times, it's not 1v9. It's 1v1. If I beat you, I beat the line of four. If I beat you, my center back after, I beat the line of four. Then I beat the goalkeeper. It's 1v1 at the time. It's 1v1. It's 1v1. Then I score. While I do it or not, it's a different ball game. But I was capable of visualizing the path instead of seeing so 1v9, let me put the ball back. Why? Why are you putting the ball back? Like, okay, Steven, 1v1.
I don't care about the two guys that are on your side. If I beat you, they're dead. There's nothing they can do. Now you and me have to center back. Let's go. I'm not saying, and I didn't go through all the time. It's a lie. But... I'm seeing the solution. So it's always something that I used to have. So, and again, to be in situation, at one point you need to overanalyze yourself. But am I seeing someone? Yes, I'm seeing someone. I'm not lying with that.
But the two points that you raised are always at that. Because I have... I was annoying as a player and as a student. I was always challenging my coaches. Always. I needed to know why are we doing this drill? I was never going to do a drill in training. Like, boss, why? Yeah, but we don't need that in the game. Oh, wow, how can you say that? Just being honest, I'll do it. But I don't think we need that in the game. I just wanted to know why we're doing this.
Why is it going to be relevant to how we play? like I got in trouble once at school. We were analyzing a poem, you know, oral, whatever. Terry, what do you think of that poem? Whatever. So I think the author wanted to say that, whatever I said. The teacher was like, no, that's not what he meant. I'm like, wait, can I speak? I go, Terry, you always have something to say. I said, well, not always, but I mean, anyway. So I said to the teacher, have you ever met Victor Hugo?
She said, no. I said, how do you know what he meant then? Isn't that the beauty of words? Can I not see something different that you see? As long as you don't bring Victor Hugo here and you tell me what he really meant, I'm not going to go with what you're saying. She sent me to the headmaster office. But what I'm trying to say, I was always that guy. Why are you going to tell me what I see of it? It's good. That's what you think. Maybe the guy was drunk when he wrote it.
Maybe he was under something. I mean, one of the best Disney movie is Alice in Wonderland. I mean, when you look at... She clearly wasn't something. Yeah. But it wasn't the beauty of letting someone open their mind. So I always have been big on that. Even young, without realizing I needed to know. So just imagine now, knowing all the ingredients now about me, imagine now in that room, overthinking. Yeah, in Montreal. Yeah. Because I need an explanation.
That's why I'm seeing someone. Because I need explanations. And sometimes you don't have all the tools. Are you still looking for answers? No, I'm trying to deal and digest with what happened. Because now I have the answers. But it's not because you have the answers sometimes that you understand what happened. Yeah. You know what I mean? I can give you the answer of a riddle and you're like, did you understand? No. You know what I mean? So you can have the answer of something and you're like, oh, okay, cool.
Did you get it though? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's the answer. No, no. Did you get it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's the get in it and the absorb in it and the digesting part of it that I'm trying to come to terms with. I guess it breaks down into three stages, which is to know, to understand, and then to do. like the behavior change. So to know something is one thing. We can all know things. We all know we should go to the gym. And you don't. I'm not saying you, obviously.
But people don't. They know it's better, and they still don't. Yeah. And then understand why that matters and why you should go. Not everyone understands that. And then to do it, most people don't do it. So there's three stages to implementing something we know. Yeah. And you're in the stage of understanding and implementing. It's tough though, man. It's tough late in life to, even with me, with emotions and affection. I always called my parents by their first name.
Never called them mum and dad. Yeah, yeah. Never hugged, never, nothing. So going into a relationship as like a 31-year-old man, It's all very, like you were describing, awkward. Sometimes I feel like I'm faking it when I say things, emotional things. I know I've got to say it, but I can't connect with it. I'm classed as an avoidant emotionally. I avoid... We all do. However, this is why I call it the cape. Cape can be anything. Yeah, for me it's business.
So sometimes, yeah, exactly. Or when I know, not anymore, when I knew a conversation was going in a certain, you know, was going somewhere I didn't want to be and I'm like, hey, I have to make a phone call. Like an emotional conversation. Whatever, things that I didn't feel comfortable, I'm out. As a dad now, is much of your motivation to do the work based on who you want those three children to be and the dad they want to connect with? It's tough because, like I said to you, it's not about not getting a good example.
It's not the word. But I didn't have an example. Understand there is a difference. We're not talking about good example. I'm talking about I didn't have a real example of a couple at home. So for me, that's already difficult to deal with that as a dad. Because, oh, my dad used to, or my dad, you know, it didn't happen because he wasn't around for that. then I myself wasn't a lot at home as a player, as a dad. And that carries on because of work.
Well, thanks to work, but thanks to work, if not also because if not, there's no home, there's no nothing, there's no... But I've been saying that. trying to find the right balance on something that I already struggle with myself of being at home, but also how to behave when you're at home as a dad. And that's the fight of a lot of men. That's why they pursue work. Because it's in our head. more of a comfortable place, is your comfort zone. While you think it's your comfort zone because nothing can be more comfortable than being with your kids.
But again, you pretend to live a certain life because you're afraid to find yourself in a situation where you don't know what to do. And it's kind of awkward or weird. So you're like, oh, people are going to see me naked. They see my weakness. I've worked to do. I'm going to the office. You leave. Oh, I'm going somewhere. Oh, you find a way to go somewhere all the time. You know what I'm saying? And I'm not trying to, you know, let me rephrase that.
You don't find a way to, but when things come, you don't say no. That's a better way to explain it. You don't say no. Instead of going, no, this is time with my family. Because we are privileged in a way to say no. I'm talking about being privileged. Because sometimes you cannot say no. But if we are privileged, what are you actually chasing? Yes, money. Let's all be honest. Okay? Money. Okay. But what are you, is it, more important than spending time with people that you love.
But because you don't know how to behave, it's kind of a weird way. And then you said the same thing, your way is work. Okay, yeah, I've been at home for a week now. That's not really me, you know? So... Those are the stuff that are difficult to deal with in my brain. It's kind of weird. I know people say, really, that's really hard. Yeah, for me, it is really hard because I've never been a homebody. I've never been at home. Since I'm 13, I've been on the road.
You know, live almost alone, you know, on flights or somewhere, you know, whatever it is. You know, so that I know well. I'm not saying it's good or that I know well. So I'm like, if you're a Terry tomorrow, you need to do this alone or whatever. You need to go back with travel. You're like, yeah, that's fine. Oh, that's tiring. No, it's okay. But it's also comfort, right? It's familiar. It is. It is. It's interesting because this is why when you're young.
As a kid, you always want to watch the same cartoon that you know even is the same episode. Because knowing what's coming next makes her feel comfortable. The familiar, whether it's healthy or not, the therapists I've spoken to on the show always talk about how we unfortunately try and recreate the unfamiliar as adults, even if it was unhealthy. And they say that in relationships, people will go for a partner, even if their father or mother was abusive.
They'll go for that because it was the way they learned love. And I think about it the same with our careers as well. You know, it really is a difficult adjustment to make later in life to go from being almost like institutionalized. And I use that word to describe the life of a top athlete that's always, you know, preparing for a game, always flying around the world, always got a clear focus to suddenly having none of it. And to have to, as you described, almost like rebirth yourself.
There's a death and there's like a rebirth. And this is exactly why I said you die. You do. It's a shock. It's a shock to the system. When you, whatever you do in your life, by the way, I loved it. So I loved football. I still love, but love football as a competitor, like the athlete. Regardless of what people say, you still can play football. Yeah, I know. Not like that. That is over. I don't care what people say. No, you know, you can work on.
No, that's over. Never going to play again. Never going to play in the prime. Never going to play. Never. Never. That's over. That's dead. So what's the new Thierry? What was born out of those ashes? What's the next chapter? For me, my biggest challenge now is to be a good dad. I don't really care about the rest. I do understand what I'm saying, so to speak. But in comparison to that, it's to be a better dad because I'm not there yet. Not at all, actually.
I have a long way to go. Um... But I'm working on it. You know, I'm not perfect. But I'm aware of what I'm missing. That's always a good start. So for me, that's what I would say. You know, a better dad and a better partner. You know, because for so long you think... That what you're doing is to please others, bring money back, to have a good life and everything. But along the way, you're missing the right moment and a true essence of life. This is why I said sometimes it's tough to be a man in a certain way.
We've been told that we need to go out there and be men. I don't even know what it's supposed to mean. Do you understand what I mean? That's why before I go back to, oh, be a man. Why is that? Because not showing emotion is not being a man. But I've been told not to show emotion. That's being a man. That's wrong. So I need to readjust to that. You know, go out there, be that, be strong, be the level of expectation of always delivering whatever you need to deliver.
You know, be a good dad, be a good partner. It's like for everybody, by the way. You know, I'm not talking about gender and everything, but I'm a man. But be a man, what is that supposed to mean? If you could go back and have a conversation with that five-year-old Thierry, and you could say a couple of words to him that maybe would have... helped him later in life? That's a tough one because that's a tough one because I always say I always say when people ask me that I'll say enjoy the ride.
Enjoy the ride. And I insist on enjoy because I forgot to enjoy the ride. Do you regret that? No, I don't regret it because maybe if I did enjoy the ride, I would have been different. It's so weird for me to say that, but this is what I will say to him now, knowing that he might have an impact on his life and maybe not being that good of a player. Or maybe better. I don't actually know, but I don't regret stuff because that's what made you in a way.
You know, you learn from people are scared of failing. Yeah. I wasn't scared of failure. You know, I was more scared not to please people, but failure, you're going to fail. And that's what makes you. That's what shapes you. So when people say I regret, I don't regret it because it makes you be better or a better man or a better person or whatever it is. So I don't have regrets. But I think along the way, we forget to enjoy living, to enjoy it. We just do it.
It's like breathing. You don't think about breathing, right? Are you living now? No. Yeah, I'm enjoying it. I'm trying to enjoy it. I'm trying to accept, you know, when people say something to me, like I never used to take a compliment well, as you can imagine, because what used to trigger me the most was what I didn't do well. So when someone was like, oh, Terry, you were good. That's what I'm supposed to do. Thierry, we have a closing tradition on this podcast, which is kind of interesting because the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're leaving it for.
And it's funny that this is the question that's been left for you. What do you most regret from your childhood and how are you working to resolve that regret? What do you regret? Essentially, I don't regret anything. But what I will say to solve it, in a way, I don't regret it. It's true. It's not a cliche thing. I do think that when you, you, you, you, this is, Your mistakes will make you better, hopefully. But what I will say to my young self is actually enjoy it.
Don't forget to enjoy it and be happy. The question before, I'm going to ask you instead because I already asked you that. What things are you doing that are contributing to keeping you stuck or stopping you from progressing in the way that you would like? Pleasing people. Still? Yeah, because it's something I cannot get rid of. but I need to balance it out with my own happiness. So I can't help myself pleasing people. That's something that I have in me.
And I think, you know what, I think personally it's a good trade, but you can't go too far with it because you forget your own happiness. What do you want people to, you know, we know the Thierry on the pitch, the legend, but what do you want to be remembered as, especially considering you've got so many chapters of life left to live, Like I said to you, I just want to be remembered. Because if you are remembered, it's because you've done something.
You're going to be remembered. But that's good enough for me. It depends on people. But for me, what matters right now is how you transcend people, what you transmit, and how you can help people. For example, to be able to open up the way I am matters for me. Why? When you did succeed and people see you as someone that they like to follow, tell them you struggled, tell them the real you for them to understand fully what's happening. And that matters more than any title that I want.
That matters more than anything else. Be honest, stop lying. And I did lie for a very long time because you have to, because the society wasn't ready to hear what you have to say, especially in my world. But that, if it can have an impact on someone's life. And the other day I was in Miami. I will be honest with you. I don't, I don't really, I don't get bothered. I'm not too bothered when people say, oh my God, Cherry, like, I love it. I love to hear it, but I'm not like after like, did you see what he said?
You know, I don't take it too far. There was a guy the other day, I'm in Miami, a cop, he came. And he says to me, Terry, can you sign on my arm? I mean, what are you going to do? He's like, I mean, he said, no, I'm going to tattoo your autograph. And I was like, and I looked at him and said, come on, you have more important stuff to do. And he goes like, no, you changed my life. So I looked at him and I went, sorry? Sorry? Yes, man, you don't understand.
Through the struggle, I was looking up to you and you changed my life. I didn't know what to say. I didn't know what to say. I really, like, I stopped and I looked at people and I went, then I realized what matters. Then I realized, without knowing, from the mission of a man, from the mission of my dad, actually, throughout all the struggles, all the problems that I'm still dealing with, that's for that. That is exactly for that. Because you, that man said to me, like I changed his life, saved him from playing football.
It's like I said to you, it's what you transmit and how you transcend people. I don't know why he saw it because I had to go and I actually took his address and his name. I still have it at home. I need to write something for him and send him something soon. But that is something, yes, up until now. And that's something, yes, I will tell my kids. Not that I won World Cups and stuff like that. I will tell my kids. Thierry, thank you so much for having this conversation with me.
For many, many reasons. I met you in Paris and I sat there in awe because I knew the player, but I didn't know the man. And I sat there on the edge of my chair because I got a glimpse of the man. And for me, you know, the stuff you did on the field, you're a legend. There's, you know, there's almost nobody that I can, there's no comparisons there on the field. But the thing that blew me away was your willingness to speak so vulnerably and powerfully as a human and as a man.
And that's why I then messaged you straight after and said, please, I would love to have a conversation with you because it left such a profound impact on me to think, oh my God, Thierry Henry feels those things. Thierry Henry has those struggles. Yeah. it makes it okay for me to have those struggles. And it will make it okay for the millions of people that will listen to this conversation to have those struggles as well. And in normalizing it, and us all realizing that those struggles aren't evidence of my inadequacy or evidence that I'm broken.
It's actually evidence that I'm a human being too, like Thierry. Exactly. Exactly. helps me to move past those struggles. And that's one of the most powerful things, and I think one of the most inspiring things that you can do. And it's another example of Thierry re-transcending in another chapter of his life in another way. So thank you so much. Thank you. And I say that thanks, I extend it on behalf of everybody listening as well who would love to be able to say it to you.
§04Transcript — part 4
Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you, Stephen. Do you need a podcast to listen to next? We've discovered that people who liked this episode also tend to absolutely love another recent episode we've done. So I've linked that episode in the description below. I know you'll enjoy it.