Roman Kemp: Why Communication Is More Important Than Ever
Guests: Roman
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Basically, that documentary became my own therapy. Still, such a weird thing that people don't want to talk about, but yet is the biggest killer in men our age.
Roman Kemp is truly remarkable and deeply inspiring.
It's all about creating tools in our brain to learn how to deal with these issues. Your brain becomes Mike Tyson and is just beating you up and you've not had one boxing lesson in your life. So you just can't do anything; you're just taking it. If you had told me 10 years ago that would be my job and that's what people would know me for, I honestly would not even know where that would have even started. I'm pleased that I've got a good core friend group around me. I'm glad that I've got my parents around me. I'm glad that I've gone out there and I've taught myself the tools that I need to go and fight Mike Tyson in there and be able to go up against him. And that's why I feel passionate to be able to go and do that for kids now.
Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.
Roman, hello. What were you like as a kid? Tell me.
As a kid, I was, I'd say, verging on attention seeker. And yeah, always just performing, I guess. I loved mimicking and doing impressions and things like that. When I first realized that I could do impressions, I would do them nonstop. I would go home, I'd watch my teachers, and I'd say to my parents, "This is what my teacher did today," and I wouldn't just say what they said, I would perform it for them, how they did it. So I think I was very much so like a high-energy kid. I would say verging on an ADHD kind of assumption, but it was definitely a big change when I went through my teenage years.
Brothers and sisters?
Older sister, Harley Moon, 32.
Very different from you?
Yeah, but to be honest, she is someone—her name's Harley, Harley Moon, one word. Very pretentious parents basically. Doesn't necessarily mean anything. I think my parents must have been slightly intoxicated after the birth, and it was a full moon, so they named her Harley Moon. But kids with Harley Moon and Roman at that time were a little bit strange. So yeah, just no great meaning other than very pretentious parents. But she is an amazing kind of person. I got my work ethic from her.
From your sister?
From my sister, yeah. My mom and my dad are really supportive and they're always there in terms of like anything I do is great. They love anything—I couldn't ask for better parents. But Harley was the first person I knew that she went out at 15 and was straight away 14, whatever it was, and was like, "I need to get a Saturday job straight away." She was the one doing it; she wanted to do it. She was asking my parents, "When can she go and do it?" And I used to be quite—there's part of me that was a bit jealous of that because she kind of had this maturity quite early on where she was making money. She went out there and she became a portrait photographer and then a big celebrity portrait photographer and was being hugely successful. So she was that person that I was like, "I need to keep up, basically."
When you say "I need to keep up," a lot of the stuff that I read about you and your relationship with your dad in particular, there were some—it felt like from reading what I read—that there were some issues with you feeling not good enough because of the fact that he had been so successful in his career as Martin Kemp. Is that accurate?
Yes and no. Because to be honest, I'm so lucky because the parents that I have are so supportive of what I want to do. It's the same way however they've parented me is the same way I want to be with my children. I'm a massive family person. I believe that everything I'm doing now is for my family and to create better people. But I think with my dad and my mom in that respect—my mom was part of the first group to ever perform in Asia. In terms of Wham! and Pepsi & Shirlie, it was insane. My dad was part of Spandau Ballet, acting career, all these types of things. I'm insanely proud of that. So for me to then say I'm not good enough for it or could never better it puts a downer on those things. So I put it kind of in separate boxes. I'm not trying to emulate them because in my head they will always be my heroes.
I sat here with Eddie Hearn and people like Umar Kamani from PrettyLittleThing.com and his dad who obviously runs Boohoo.com. They often spoke to that feeling of when you've got successful parents, there can be thoughts that creep in that make you think—often illogically—that you've got like a mountain to emulate or there's pressure.
Yeah, but that's society. I always use this as an example. You look at any famous kid. Me myself being the offspring of two people that are famous, I will still look at Brooklyn Beckham and see him getting a scholarship for a photography thing and go, "Oh, I bet he's got that because of his dad." And I'll catch myself doing that. But that's a normal thing to feel. I'm sure he has great talents, but I fully understand why people would look at me and go, "Oh, he's got to where he is because of his dad." Let me tell you, at the beginning, I asked my dad, "Hook me up! Help me out!" and he couldn't. He genuinely couldn't because what I wanted to do was different.
But I would say with my dad, it's never the pressure—and with my mom—it's never the pressure of how well you're doing and "tick this off, look what I've done, you've got to do this." It's not that. The hardest thing with my old man and my mom is the public perception of them is how it is, which is they are so nice and they are these amazing people. I always feel like for me and my sister, there's more of a pressure for me to be able to have a good relationship and a wife in the way that my dad has. That for me is more of a pressure than anything to do with work. The relationship that they have weighs massively on me because I don't want to ever go through a divorce. I don't want to ever go through problems because they never did. So when people ask me that question, I'd rather do anything to have their relationship over their career.
When you were that age, say 14, 15, when you were thinking about what you wanted to be when you grew up, what were your aspirations at that point?
I signed a record deal at 15, which came through in such a weird way. It was meeting people and someone saying, "Would you want to try songwriting?" and I had an interest in it. I'd worked with a few people, worked in management companies as a Saturday job. And then they were like, "Yeah, cool, let's do it." And I signed a development deal with Universal Music, which basically means you're the label's bitch, where you'll be a part of any project that they want you to be a part of. So they basically own any output that you have.
And what did you get for that?
I mean, you got paid. At 15, it was okay. At the same time, I was being able to sit in meetings with people who are now heads of labels and meet all these people and grasp an understanding. It's definitely helped with me now, having interviewed so many artists in terms of what they're going through because I've witnessed some form of that. And I did that for three years, from when I was 15 to 18. Listen, when I signed a deal at 15 and then went in to do my GCSEs, no wonder I did bad in my GCSEs. I could not care less. I literally walked into some of my GCSEs, wrote my name, and walked out. I got a U in Maths because I just signed my name. I was distracted at that age. I knew—I didn't know exactly what it was—but I knew that world was normal to me. The music world was normal to me, the film world was normal because I've grown up in it. And I guess that's why I wanted to do it. It's never been anything to do with fame in our house. The idea of what you want to do when you're older was never attached to "I'll be really famous if I do that."
What was your first sort of real job then?
Real job? So I basically did Universal for a while and worked in a band, in projects or whatever. And I then reached a point where that all ended really abruptly. Partly because I just couldn't do it anymore and it was a lot. I felt like it was a lot to take in and I remember just sitting with my mom and I must have been 18 and I was just crying. I was like, "I just can't be a part of this. This is too much." The expectation on young kids in the music industry is a lot.
What was the...?
Well, it's a lot. You're putting your own emotional being into music or into this kind of thing. I guess the only way I can describe it is how kids must feel if they're young footballers and they're trying to make it and they get cut from teams. It's a lot of emotion going up and down. You win at one point and then the loss is so hard. And when you're going through puberty, imagine that at the same time. You don't know how to handle that.
And what were they trying to make you into, a songwriter?
No, so I was part of bands mostly. They were putting me in bands, I was bass playing, or it was like, "Would you want to write a song for other people?" And don't get me wrong, it was an amazing experience and one that I would still do now, 100 percent. I think that again, everything that I've done obviously makes me the person that I am today and gives me the ability to do what I do now. And I just at that point had just reached a moment where I was like, "I can't do it anymore." So then I said to my mom, "I need to do something that is nowhere near media and I'm just going to go and get a regular job every day." And I ended up getting a job basically just cleaning toilets and cleaning equipment in a gym near me. And I did that for about a year and a half. And it was horrible.
A year and a half?
It wasn't great. I went out there, I got all the PT qualifications and all that stuff so that I could work in a gym, but literally, it was just glorified toilet cleaner essentially. I was just cleaning running machines for about a year and a half. And then during that time, I kind of realized that my creative side was really struggling. I've always wanted to create and do stuff. So I knew how to edit film and I knew how to film as well. And so with my money from working at the gym, I went out and bought a DSLR, started filming stuff for friends, rappers, grime music videos, and things like that just to make some extra cash. At the same time on the weekends, I'd just make my own stuff and I'd put it on YouTube and I'd just have fun with it. I knew that world was a world because I had come from a school where my classmate was KSI. In that moment, you're like, "I know that's possible." And I think that's something that's so important for so many people when they know it's possible. And that's the problem with sometimes why I think people get stuck in a class system because they don't know what you can do and what your potential could go to. But I'd seen JJ do it, I'd seen Simon do it and all those types of kids and I was like, "This is an amazing thing that they're doing. I'll give it a go." And from there all of a sudden it just kind of turned into this presenter role, I guess.
Did you ever have an intention of doing presenting?
No, God no! Absolutely not. I would have been very happy just doing camera, genuinely. I love—to this day, I will standby—by the time I'm 60, I want to have at least directed one feature film.
You'll do it.
No, I know I'll do it because I'll make it happen. I don't care how low budget it is, but I will do it.
So tell me about your first proper presenting gig then and how that came about.
There was a football company called Football Daily.
I know them.
Yeah, so this was right at the start of when they started out and they were just a group of lads that were just pushing out content. And I just had this idea for a video that was based on like a football pickup line video. And it was just silly. And they were like, "Well, could you just go out and film it for us?" And I was like, "Yeah, fine." And then they were like, "Actually, do you want to just be in it and do it if that would be cheaper and quicker?" So I was like, "Okay, look, I'll just go out and do it." And then from that, they then started asking me to go on to chat about football. I mean football is something so massive in terms of my life.
Who do you support?
I'm an Arsenal fan.
I'm sorry about that.
But how are you?
Manchester United.
Oh, Man United. I don't hear a Mancunian accent, so that must be Man United. No, but you know, it's like I started doing silly kind of prank videos that then turned into chatting. But it kind of all merged into one. I ended up getting gigs with Channel 4, MTV. Capital were asking me to do like outside broadcasty bits, basically just like for the breakfast show they'll go, "Let's cross over to Roman who's at Wimbledon." You know what I mean? But those are so important. Every—with presenting is air miles. You've got to do it. You've got to do all of those jobs because they throw different challenges to you every time. And they will come back and you'll look back and you'll go, "I'm so pleased I did that really shit job," because I know what I got out of it. There is never a thing as a bad job, ever, because you will always get one thing out of it. Whether that just solely be—I've done jobs that I never want to talk about ever again in my life in terms of how bad they were, but I learned that from them. So the next time I come to that point and I go, "Hang on, this is one of them," therefore it was a good job to take so I'm not making that mistake later.
At that time in your life, did you at that point have an idea of what you wanted to do in the future when you were doing the Football Daily stuff?
If I'm honest, I just wanted to be a football presenter because that's what I loved. And I was enjoying myself. I was happy. And I was at a point where I feel like, God, I'm getting paid to do something that I don't feel like I should be paid for. And I think that's always been my focus, always. Is, "Am I happy doing it?" "Yes." "Okay, well keep on doing it." And I think that's most important with anyone. My mom actually, again, it was a conversation with my mom that she said to me—she was like, "What is it that you want to do?" And I was like, "I don't know, I don't know." I had so many things. I was like, "Should I try and be an actor because that's what my dad did? Or should I try and do music because that's what my mom and dad do? Should I stay there?" And she was like, "No, no, no, but forget about that. What do you love doing? What makes you happy?" And I was just like, "I don't know, just chatting about football with my mates." She was like, "Well why can't you chat about football and make that your job?" And I was like, "Well I don't know anyone in that." And she goes, "Well why can't you just make your own stuff and show people that you can do it?"
Fucking hell, I wish I had a mom like yours.
Mate, honestly, like it’s what I’m saying. But these conversations were real conversations that she had with me and she was literally saying, "Well you just have to show people that you can do that." And I was like, "Well how am I going to—I can't just walk into Sky Sports." She was like, "Why not?" My mom really kind of—again, my dad is too nice. He's too good of a cheerleader. Anything I want—if I said when I was working at the gym, "Oh I had to clean this treadmill today and this and that," he goes, "Yeah but I saw it and it was so good." It was so good. But that's what I mean, you know, best parents. I couldn't have lucked out more if we are living in a Matrix world where you select your pod of who your parents are, I have done so well. But yeah my mom was the person that was really like, "What is it you love?" And I said that and she was like, "Create your job. Make it." And I did. She's very spiritual in terms of manifesting. I'm more of a coincidence person, but yeah.
I think my mom always says this one thing to me which I will have forever and I will always teach to my kids. And I think, going back to what you were saying about that pressure of having parents that do what I do and we're all part of the same world. Having famous parents, the one word that people will constantly say to you is that you're lucky. Constant. It will constantly say to you, "Oh yeah but you got lucky because you got this" or "you got lucky because your parents do this." And I once said to my mom, "I've just done this really cool thing and all people say to me is 'Ah yeah but you got lucky.'" So my mom used to say to me, "Yeah, but break that down and break down what luck actually is." And she was the first person to say that phrase to me where she said, "Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." And it's so right. I prepared myself in terms of I went out and I did the mileage, I did all the rubbish jobs, I learned about football, you know, all those types of things. I spent those hours wanting to be the best I could be at it. And then it just so happened that an opportunity in life arose where I could show that skillset. And from now on that's all I ever look at luck as. And so when people say that I was lucky on something, I'm like, "Yeah, but I prepared to be in that situation and it was fate that the opportunity was there."
100 percent. I mean I even get that now. People will say to me that I got lucky. I always cite one particular example which was when I was 18, broke kid up in Manchester in Moss Side. I was living in Moss Side and I sent an email at 3:00 AM in the morning to the first person that came up on LinkedIn asking if they'd invest in my business. I was asking them for five grand. They replied within a couple of hours and said they would if I assembled a team. Super lucky. The first person I emailed gave me five grand. I was up at 3:00 AM in the fucking morning! I show the email on stage where I removed the little thing blocking the timestamp and I go, "You can call it luck, but I know where you were at 3:00 AM on that Saturday morning."
But you created that opportunity! And that's what I'm saying, that opportunity just was there and you had to have all the back knowledge to be able to provide it. If you just went to someone and said, "I want that" and then they were like, "Well what have you got to show for it?" and you had nothing, they wouldn't have done it.
Another example that I actually learned—someone was interviewing me the other day. If I got a dice and I rolled it a thousand times, eventually I'm going to get—a coin, let's say—eventually I'm going to get heads ten times in a row just because I flip it a thousand times. If I flip it a hundred times it might not happen, but again it's like increasing the opportunity because of the amount of just flips.
If I had prepared in my life to do a different type of job, I'm sure there are so many opportunities that I have missed in this life that I'm living that would have been better for a different life. That's basically how there's constant opportunities. Especially when you know—and that's why we're so fortunate to live in a place like London. It's so fortunate to be able to be here and not be in some shit part town. That's why I always love the kind of grime scene and the rap scene in the UK and all that type of stuff because these kids are coming up from shit, like bad areas, with so low opportunities and they've made something of it. Which is great.
So when did you get the call from Capital and how did that happen?
So I had a call from them that was like, "Yeah, can you come and do...?" This was whilst I was doing Football Daily stuff, I was doing stuff for like 4Music, just little hosting bits online. And then someone called me and they said, "Oh, will you come and do a demo?" like come in and just do a quick, let's hear how your voice sounds. So I was like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, come in." Did that, thought nothing of it, didn't really hear back. Then a few weeks later, "Will you do some outside broadcasting bits?" where I remember I had to go to Wimbledon and chat to people just in the queue. Rubbish. Like, rubbish stuff. But all air miles. Stuff that to this day, I still know exactly what they taught me in my first demo. And after that, it kind of went to a point where they offered me a show that was like bit-roll shows, so like 1:00 AM to 4:00 AM on a weekend every two weekends. And a lot of people are like—all my mates again were like, "Wow, graveyard shift," but I was like, "Yeah, but air miles." I'm gonna—well to be honest, I loved that because it was in the middle of the night, I could make any mistake I wanted, no boss is listening. No one cares. I could learn all the buttons and all those types of things. I know radio presenters now that are like, "What do you mean you do the buttons?" Yeah! It's more fun! So it was again that moment where I had to learn and I knew that and I wanted to learn the craft as much as possible. And with radio, I kind of just accidentally fell in love with it. If you had told me 10 years ago that I was hosting radio and that would be my job and that's what people would know me for, I honestly would not even know where that would have even started.
Crazy that. And it's hard because radio is a very cliquey place because a lot of people went to student radio and those types of things and I didn't take that natural path. I said to myself, "I'm on Capital now"—this was when I was 21, 22—and I said to myself, "Right, I'm doing 1:00 AM to 4:00 AM every couple of weekends now. Within 10 years, I want to be doing the breakfast show." And I did it in three. Two and a half, three. And that for me is still the best achievement that I can name for myself.
Why do you think you did so well in radio?
Because I kept pushing and I kept like—I always speak to younger radio presenters now or even presenters that are there and I always say, "What show are you doing?" and then they'll be worried to say and I'll ask them what show they want to do. And they won't want to say because there's someone else there. But it's like, well, if you don't—I was there every single day. I know every other week I was knocking on the boss's door saying, "I'm better than that person. I can make it better. I can do this better, I can do this better." You gotta do it. No one owes you something. No one owes you that opportunity to have a better show or a better TV show or whatever. If I go to a commissioner at a TV channel, I sure as hell have to go in there with a better idea than what they've currently got. Otherwise, what's the point in me being there? To sit there and go, "Oh can you please give me a show?" No. I've got to prove that. I've got to show why. And that's all I did on Capital. It was literally like—I remember they gave me a Saturday 5:00 PM to 8:00 PM, which was a horrendous show slot.
How come?
Just because it's low ratings. People are getting ready to go out on a Saturday night, no one's really listening to the radio. It's not quite 8:00 PM where you're gonna get in and do pre-drinks. It's just low ratings statistically. And I was like, "I don't care, give me the show." And then we took that and me and Joe, my producer, we turned it—we gave it the highest ratings within that slot that there's ever been for one and it did some record in terms of weekend numbers ever on Capital.
Why?
Because we changed it. Before Capital was always constant "happy happy happy" as quickly as you can, in between the song, say as little as possible, move on. I wanted to create a show where I was like, "No, that's not what... if Saturday at 5:00 is quite a dead period for kids that were my age at that time, which were like 22, 23." And I was like, "A lot of my mates are these YouTubers and these types of things. Why don't I get some of them on, we'll just play some games, we'll have more fun with it." And we just kind of created this vibe instead of just going the classic route of what they wanted to do. And because it was a rubbish slot, they just kind of said to me, "Try it out." And we tried it and did it. But it's just having that belief and just being like banging on the door and being like, "Look, if it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Take it off me." So I'm pleased that we did that. And that kind of led to me then going into an evening show slot.
You went on to do a documentary which I watched, which was incredibly moving for a number of reasons personally. I've got one of my best friends and my business partner for seven or eight years was depressed as we were running the business and I had no idea. So I only actually found out in hindsight. And he said to me when he came on this podcast actually afterwards, after he had had a problem with alcohol and I had caught him in the laundry room—we lived together—at like 3:00 AM in the morning drinking alcohol. And I had because at the time I didn't understand what mental health disorders were. So I just thought, "Oh he's a pisshead." But obviously, I've come to learn that that's a symptom of something. And then it all came to a head one day where he got really drunk and started exposing himself in front of employees—long story—but then we had a chat. And it was the first time we had a chat about what was going on without anger or assumption and then he opened up to me and we cried on some Sunday in the office and he started his journey to get seeing a therapist, etc. Your documentary was just exceptional for so many reasons. Can you take me through—because I know that you were working alongside your best friend Joe at the radio. Can you take me through, I guess the first question is, did you know anything was at all troubling Joe?
No. No. I've known Joe for since I started, six years. Six years straight. Being with that person every single day. Almost like a boyfriend. Like, that's how—we worked together every day, we'd go out all the time, after shows, all those types of stuff, weekends, go out. If I had lined up over 30 mates, I would probably put him last as to who I would suspect would ever do anything like that. To put it into context, obviously the documentary you're talking about was about male suicide and male depression. It was—even this world that I'm in now, I really do not wish I was part of this world. In terms of I wish I didn't have to speak—people talking to me about suicide—but this is where we are. That's how life goes. That's it. But when it came to Joe, my producer, yeah, he was the first person when I went to Wimbledon that day, he was the first person I met. When I did my demo for the first time, he was that person that was there with me. This is someone that taught me everything I know in terms of my professional being now on terms of radio. He taught me everything. And sat next to me literally two foot away from me every day on every single show. We'd laugh together, as I say go out together, all those types of things. But I think Joe took his own life in August last year. And that for me was a moment where I kind of—I had dealt with my own kind of suicidal thoughts and my own kind of depression, and Joe was very much aware of that. Which is why it was so strange to me and why I felt like I had this piece of paper in front of me that said everything you know about someone that is "suicidal" in quotes is wrong because it doesn't have any form of symptom. Because that's why each suicide is different to the next and you can't nullify it. You can't be like, "Oh if someone is suicidal they'll look like this, this, this, this." You'll never find those answers. Which is a scary thought. But it's also, you didn't know that mental health disorders were a thing. That puts you in a higher risk category than it puts me. The majority of men that take their own life have no idea that mental health disorders even are a thing. Most of them think that people are just kind of lying or people are just attention seeking when they say they have depression. That's over 70 percent of men that take their own life are in that situation. They see it as a means to an end. "I don't like what's going on in my life, how do I make it stop? Take your own life." It's so strange. So yeah, in a long-winded way, I would never have thought that Joe would be that person at all. No.
That really does make you think about all your friends, right?
100 percent. But that's why—and look, when I came to making the documentary, Joe died in August. I started making that doc in November. Two months. Because I—one, all I know how to do is through creative stuff. I can't write something down, I'm not going to lobby government because I don't know how to do that, all those types of things. I just know how to make something. And I knew also selfishly I knew that if I do a doc, I'm going to be able to meet people that have tried to take their own life, I'm going to be able to meet psychiatrists, I'm going to be able to meet professors and learn the science because I was so convinced in my head I was like, "I need to know all the things that I need to be looking out for for my other friends." Basically that documentary became my own therapy. And people watched it. And I think that's why I realized after that, "Shit, it is everywhere." And two, there is no way of telling. So therefore the only people that can help those people are their friends. And that's what the documentary is. It's not a documentary about suicide, it's a documentary about friendship and how we now have to take ownership of our mates.
What did that journey of creating that documentary and your own experiences teach you about—and this is one of the things that's really fascinated me for a long time—is like we're seeing this apparent increase in mental health disorders. And I say "apparent" because sometimes it's hard to distinguish whether it's because of the increase in awareness that we have more people putting their hand up and saying "Listen, I'm suffering" or it's because the world has changed—social media, whatever you want to call it—and people are, we're living in a less healthy way. So we're seeing this, the data shows that there's a pretty significant increase in mental health disorders, things like treatment-resistant depression. I'm actually the creative director and one of the big investors in ATAI, which is maybe the biggest mental health psychedelics business in the world. So I spend a lot of time looking at clinical studies and obviously psychedelics comes at depression more from a place of like "what's happened to you" versus "what's wrong with you." What have you learned about what's causing the increase in mental health disorders from your journey?
It's tough. I mean I can only speak from a male perspective, obviously, and I only ever have done. Because it's so easy and the thing that I saw the most was everyone saying to me, "Ah social media isn't it? Social media." The fact is it's not. Social media is there, yes, and it can create a trigger or anything like that for someone that may be feeling down. I don't think it's the sole purpose. I can also be madly inspired by social media, I can also be made to feel really, really happy by social media. I think the main problem with men is purely down to is almost toxic masculinity. It's our own kind of fault. The pressures that we put on ourselves to be the person that we want to be, to have the body that we want, to have the things that we want, to have the job, the family. Even the pressure that I put on myself to have the family that I should have. I worry that if I come to the age of 50 and I don't have that, how am I going to feel? And it's all about creating tools in our brain for kids as young as five and throughout primary school to learn how to deal with these issues. Throughout time, people have had depression. It's just how our brains work. That's how our brains are wired. There's always been depression. Yeah, you've got a right point in terms of like the data will obviously show that there's more because there are more cases. Don't get me wrong, throughout the pandemic obviously it's—I always don't go too much into government stuff—but I think it's so grotesque to even trap people in their homes in the way that they did and not think about the mental health side of things. Because they haven't. They completely ignored it. Like the government completely ignored how much of a problem mental health will be during the pandemic, people being on their own, not being able to go about their lives. And also the trauma that that's going to have later on in life for kids. I learned a stat the other day that is horrendous. And this is something that when I was asked will I go out and make another documentary, I think for this stat I want to because I can't quite believe it. Any business or any school has to sign a health and safety declaration. And that's how it is. They all have to sign a piece of paper that says if you hurt yourself here, we'll sign that. 100 percent of schools up and down the country sign that. There is also a declaration of mental health, where a school has to look after a kid if a traumatic event happens within school, they have to make sure that their mental health is looked after. In the UK, 2 percent of schools have signed that.
Why?
So you're saying that 98 percent of schools up and down the UK look at mental health and go, "Nothing to do with us." School is the most traumatic time in anyone's life. If parents knew that, if parents knew that schools don't care about your kid's mental health, then that is what is putting us in a situation now where men are killing themselves because we don't know—we've never been taught how to deal with it. No one's ever looked after us.
Teaching us how to deal with it. You talk about toxic masculinity there. One of the things that's always associated with that is just men's lack of willingness to make a phone call to a friend and say, "Listen, I am not okay." And you've also been very open about the day where you were feeling like that. And your superwoman mother once again, she called you coincidentally?
Yeah, coincidentally. Well it was kind of like yeah, I went to call her and then I texted her a couple of times and then she just called me.
Because you were feeling bad so you texted her?
Yeah. I mean people will tell you this but when you're in that zone, if you're in a complete spiral, everything goes into a right blur. All I know is that I was in my house and I was in my pants and I could not stop crying and I could not stop worrying about everything and my head was going like a whirlwind. I was worrying about stuff that wasn't even logical.
What was your brain telling you?
I can't even describe it. It's like—the only way—it feels like anything in my head that could have been a problem was a problem. Have you ever had like—you know when you're hungover and the next day—I don't know if you drink—but the next day, right, if you have a hangover, you have this paranoia thing throughout the day where stuff just makes you feel a little bit edgy? It's like that but a million times. The only way I also talk about it is like it's like paranoia and it's like Mike Tyson. Your brain becomes Mike Tyson and he is just beating you up and you've not had one boxing lesson in your life. So you're just kind of—you can't do anything, you're just taking it. And it's like your teeth look bad, you've not done this, your tax bill's this, you're this, you're this, you're this. Are you ever gonna do this? You're never gonna do this. Loads of voices. And at that point, I just said to myself, "I don't know what to do." And the only thing I could think about was, "Okay well I'll just take my own life, I'll kill myself." That's honestly how I felt. Because I was like, "That's the only way to stop this." And then as you said, my mom called me and she kept me on the phone for about an hour because I was at the house. And I'd like in my head I was like, "Oh I'll just go to the train station and just do—jump in front of a train." That's honestly what went through my head. And then at that point, I was like "Okay fine" and then I'm speaking to my mom and my mom got there within an hour and we just kind of—do you know what, I don't even remember her getting there. It's a very strange place to be. It's an actual mental breakdown. They call it a mental breakdown for a reason because I can't—your whole mind just blanks. And that's the same thing that I've spoken to a lot of people that have attempted to take their own life and they all say the same thing. Those moments that you have are completely just so intense that your mind goes—implodes and you don't even know. And that's why a lot of men will tell you that when they take it to that step, which is a huge step to decide "Okay I'm going to take my own life," a lot of men go, "That was my happiest moment" because I felt like in that time I was in control of my life. Which is a really scary thought and a really sad thought. That they feel like the biggest amount of clarity they've ever had in their life and the moment where they felt at peace was when they felt like, "Okay I'm going to do this and everything will stop." But the problem is is that that's not the answer. And it's really not.
And when I speak to, in the documentary, I speak to Joe's mom. Keep in mind this is three months after her son has passed away and she's had to be told that her son who she's raised has taken his own life. She sums it up in such an amazing way which is kind of touching on a very dangerous topic of selfishness around suicide which a lot of people don't want to talk about but it's the truth. Which is, suicide isn't necessarily a selfish act by that person, but the problem is is that no matter what pain that person is feeling in that moment, no matter what pain you're going through in your head or sadness, you do not get rid of that by taking your own life. All you are doing is you are transferring it to everyone around you. And you are transferring that—on average 180 people get affected by one single suicide. And that is what you are doing. And it's just a fact. For two months I absolutely hated Joe. I hated him after he died. I felt quite cold because I was just like, "How could you do that?" I felt like, "How could you leave me, your mom, your dad, your sister? How could you do that? How could you let someone find you?" Do you know what I mean? So it's in that that you realize that no matter how much that clarity is there and you feel like you're escaping a problem, you are passing that on to someone else. And that's what's left behind you. And I know for a fact that I would put so much money on that if he were here right now he'd look at me and say, "Sorry mate, made a mistake." 100 percent.
So much I was thinking about there. So the first thing is my business partner also said to me he wanted—he was considering jumping in front of a train. That's what he said to me in our private conversations. The other thing is just this—it's really hard for someone who's not been through what you're describing there, what you went through and evidently what Joe went through, to understand that place if you've not been there. This is why it's so valuable. And like I was thinking, you didn't choose for everybody to ask you in every interview about this topic. But the immense value that it's doing on someone like me who's been fortunate enough not to be in that place, who can now understand from your description there, that Mike Tyson description, can now understand that—how that must feel. I can't, but I can almost.
But the thing is is what's better is because you are in a higher risk category than me. Because but now that I've spoken to you about it and you're not because because that's the problem is that you know all of the guys that I spoke to said to me they were like, "Didn't think mental health was a thing, was a thing. Didn't think what I was going through was depression. Thought I was just rubbish and just thought I wasn't where I wanted to be in life, just wanted that to end." That's the realization of it. And again it's a topic that no one really wants to talk about and is also why I was so adamant that the worst—okay this is the worst thing, right, is if you're in that state, your mate's in that state, right? The last thing he wants to do is talk to you about that. So why is the kind of push always, "Oh if you're feeling depressed you should talk"? No. That's the last thing I want to do. If anything you're going to make me revert more. You're going to make me go back more. The pressure should be placed on us as friends to make that call and to make that conversation happen with anyone that you would ever suspect. Even if you don't suspect it, make sure! How sure are you? How sure are you of the people in your phone book or your close friends that they're not thinking these thoughts?
Not sure enough.
But that's what I mean! So all you have to do is have that conversation. But that will take you having that conversation. I always say—I do a lot of talks for businesses about mental health—and I always leave it with, you know, "Go away today, choose three people in your phone book that you speak to regularly and ask them are they okay, but do it twice." And that's something that I learned from a group of lads who had lost their mate. They now look after each other by asking at the beginning of the conversation "Are you okay?", have the conversation, and then just go back to it and be like, "So tell me, are you okay?" Choose three people, do that "two okay" rule on them, and tell me that you haven't found something new from at least one of those people. It's a fact. Like it's so messed up that us as a society, especially living in London, which is just a horrific but amazing place. It's this beautiful cultural place, it's my home, it's everything, but it is also a treadmill. And you got to get on it. And if you're not on it, you're not even in the picture. And that means that conversation switches to, "What do you do? How can I profit off that?" And the most important thing in a conversation should always be, "Are you okay?" When you say to your mates, "Hey how are you?" you go, "Yeah I'm good," and glaze over it like that. Why is that not the most important thing that you ask someone? And it should be. It should always be. And that's why for guys we forget that, so you have to go, "Oh shit, okay, I'll ask it again." And that is—I want people to be the hero to their friends that I know I wasn't to mine because I know I wasn't. And no matter how many people say to me, "No, he did what he did because of his prerogative" and all that type of stuff—yeah for sure—but the fact is that if someone had had this conversation with me, I probably would have brought it up with him. And I would have—I know if I had gotten to the crux of it, if I had asked Joe those questions, if I had said to him, "Are you okay?" if I had done that twice, if I had spoken to him and seen how he is, I don't think I'd be here. I don't think I'd be having this conversation. And I want other people to understand that it's up to us as friends.
But you spoke to Joe about your struggles.
Yeah.
About you. And did he ever—did he not ever reciprocate and say, "Well I've also been..."?
No. No. But that's his thing.
What was he like as a guy in terms of—was he a guy that talked about deep topics?
Joe was someone—it's ridiculous to even talk about him because it's like if he had known that I was out here talking about him, it's odd. But he's someone that was the most outgoing, funny, creative guy. He always teetered on genius and idiot constantly. He would have the most ridiculous ideas and out of a hundred of them, 99 would be ridiculous and one would be incredible. And that one incredible thing is the thing that we'd always champion and push forward. But he's someone that, yeah like I say, every single one of my friend group—I've never known a more smiley person, I've never known someone more happy-go-lucky, more just happy to be there. And that's why I say if that can happen to him, best believe it can happen to anyone else.
Did anybody ever find out what got him to that place?
No. Again, this is another thing—Hollywood would make us believe that people leave notes. They don't. Over 90 percent don't and never know. And that's why suicide is a horrible, harsh thing. And it's so final. That's the problem—it's so final. Another thing is, girls can't be taken out of this conversation as well because when I worked with the Nottinghamshire Street Triage team—who are an incredible team of people that are police and mental health experts that go out on calls together—I went there in the mode of "Oh yeah it must all be guys that you speak to." They were like, "No, actually, around 90 percent of our calls are women having mental struggles or trying to take their own life." And then you look at the data and you're like, "How does that make sense?" But the problem is that us as men being men, we choose more final methods in terms of how to end that pain. And that's the unfortunate reality of it.
You made that documentary. It was everywhere and everybody was talking about it, really, really far-reaching. In fact, I know that the amount of people calling suicide and sort of mental health support lines shot up drastically. It was amazing figures. But with that, you then carry this social—you become the ambassador for something, right?
I do not want to be the ambassador for it, but that's how life is now. And the only reason why I'll go out there and do it is because of Joe's family, genuinely. They're—it's not easy, right, talking about that fact? No it's not. I'll give you examples. I'll go to parties now and the main thing that lads will come up and talk to me about is how they feel. Which is nice in a way, but it's a lot. I won't lie that it's a lot. There are days where I don't want to talk about—I have people like again, I'll be out for dinner or something like that and someone will come up to me and say, "Oh my God, that documentary, blah blah blah." I wasn't thinking about my mate taking his own life, but now I'm thinking about it. You know what I mean? But that is life. That's always how it is. And the only way that I can kind of get around that is by—you can tell by the way that I talk about it, I'm still passionate about it because I've been scarred by it. I've got such trauma attached to suicide and mental health, and that's a trauma that I'll always have. One of the questions I've asked other people who have been through what I've been through, I said to them, "When does it get better?" and their reply is, "It doesn't. You just learn to deal with it a little bit better." You know what I mean? You just learn a different technique to stop thinking about it. And that will be with me forever. I'll tell my kids about Joe, I'll be bang on top of my kids' mental health. But again, I just think throughout all of this, being a part and having these conversations now is crazy and weird.
Do you still feel a bit of anger sometimes towards Joe for doing that?
Yeah, every now and again. Every now and again. That's normal. It's normal. Every now and again I'll be like—every now and again it's more so like me and my mates will have a story and we'll laugh and then at the end of it we'll go, "For fuck's sake, like why? Like mate, come on." Because I know, like I know that if he were here, what he would say to me. I can hear it clear as day. He'd say, "Oh sorry mate, I made a mistake." And that's what's so sad. And it's like I know that whatever it is that he was going through wasn't worth it. And it never is worth it, no matter what anyone's going through. This is not an option. It's not an option. I'm mistaken because I can't remember her name, so please forgive me if she ever hears this or friends of hers ever hear this. There was a mom that recently got the wording changed around the phrase "commit suicide." So now that is not a phrase that should necessarily be said. So it's always you would refer to it as "take your own life" because to commit suicide is actually an illegal act and therefore a lot of parents were left with a child who if they had written it down that they'd done that, they would go down essentially as a criminal. Because you were committing an illegal act. So that phrasing is gone now, which is quite nice. Is a nice thing. But suicide is still such a weird thing that people don't want to talk about but yet is the biggest thing. Think how much—think how many cancer adverts, think how many testicular cancer adverts you see on a daily basis. Now put that together with how many male suicide adverts you see. You don't. But it's the biggest killer for our age.
How have you found being in the public spotlight? You talked a little bit there about people coming up to you at dinners and parties and stuff. Like when you're in the spotlight anyway, people come up and just say, "Oh I love your thing," right? But now they're coming up and saying... how have you found all of that?
In terms of the doc?
The doc, but just more in general.
I mean in general, mate, to be totally honest, I don't know any different, genuinely. Because for me, it was like in the same way that I could say to you, "How is it when you hit puberty?" It's like you'd seen people above you go through that, so you kind of knew what to expect and you'd kind of dealt with it. You know what I mean? Whereas for me, people coming up to me now saying, "Oh can I get a picture?" and if I'm with a mate I have to say to them "Oh could you hold the phone and take the picture?" I was that person holding the phone half my life. So it just—it's always been there. Any time I was a kid walking into a pub, going to a football match, walking into a restaurant, anywhere, I clocked people looking at my dad or my mom.
Did you understand that they were famous at that point?
Yeah mate, loved it! Loved it! Put it this way—my sister was always really shy of it. My dad always tells this story where it was show and tell at school and I must have been about six. My dad was in EastEnders, he'd just joined EastEnders, and his character name was Steve Owen. And it was a big thing that he was in there. And the firemen came to school to show the firetruck and to show how this is our equipment and all that type of stuff. And they said, "Any questions?" And my dad and my mom said I put my hand up and said, "You may think that's cool, but my dad's Steve Owen!" So I've always been insanely proud of my parents. And I credit them for—my dad has always been very patient with everyone in terms of people wanting pictures or stuff like that. He always does it. But he taught me something else, which we had a little bit of a chat about this before, but he's never let me take pictures with people, ever. And I don't do that. And I always get told off about it because people are like, "Oh if you're hanging out with this person you should take a picture."
Oh so if you went to take a photo with like Justin Bieber, then he's not going to let you?
Even footballers. When I was a kid all I wanted was like take a picture, if I met a footballer I'd want to take a picture. He was like, "No. Enjoy that moment with you and that person. A picture is nothing, it's gratification for someone else to see it." He goes, "You should enjoy that moment, live it with your eyes and speak to them. And if you really want to make a moment in that person's life, go up to them and say, 'You know what, I really, really like your work. I really appreciate what you've done. I really like this.'" That goes so much further than if someone came up to me and said, "Just want to let you know that I really liked what you did." That means so much more than anyone running up to you and going, "Can I get a picture?" take a picture and run off. Do you know what I mean? And you must go through the same thing. If someone came up and said, "Mate I really love your podcast" or "I really love everything you've done, the business that you've created," it means so much more. So yeah, fame in terms of for me has always been—there's pros and cons to our jobs now. Fame is a con. It is a bad part of it. The good part is that we get to do fun stuff. The good part is you get to speak to interesting people sat here. The con is that when you're out for dinner, someone may have watched that conversation and want to interrupt you and talk to you about it.
Yeah. I went to the United away game the other day and I always get it in certain places. Whenever there's a younger demographic—Dragons' Den is going to change that, I was talking to my team this week because BBC One's a slightly more parenty audience. It will really change that, you'll see that. So when I'm at Old Trafford in the gallery area which is all predominantly a little bit older people, no one bothers me. If I go to an away day, honestly last week someone had their arm around me the whole game, "I love your podcast!" showed me on his phone, "Look I love your podcast!" and I'm trying to—"Please can I watch the game?" He's like, "Come on, he's at..." the whole game! And you know when you think... I'm wearing a fucking hoodie but you know... but yeah. It's actually a conversation I've started having—and you've experienced this much more than I have—which is just, will there become a point where I become more of an introvert and don't want to go to places because of the amount of people that are... it's exhausting, right? And I don't want to be—I'll never be an asshole. I know that for sure. I'll never say no, but it's tiring, right?
It's tiring for sure. But naturally that will happen because your life changes. Like, you're going to be on a TV show that is watched by millions of people. This is—that's what my dad always says, you know, and that's why he always says to me you can't—people that get angry at fans or whatever and like be rude to people, you can't put your head above the parapet and not expect to get hit. You know what I mean? Like, how can you do that? You're choosing to go on a show that is watched by millions of people. Therefore if you go out, you need to be more careful. You need to understand that people are going to want certain things and that's fine, but that's just the world.
You've met a lot of very famous mega-stars and you've partied with a lot of them, been very close to a lot of them. I've read some of the stories about Justin Bieber. When you look at some of these people that have been wildly successful, what have you noticed about their happiness? Like the ones that are happy, the ones that you think, "Oh God, I'm concerned for this one." What is your general observation? Are these really happy people, honestly?
I think it's all about the values. It's all about "what are they doing it for?" And the family life. I think one of the reasons why I'm able to again do the job that I do and to speak to those people who are on such high pedestals is because you gotta remember that I've grown up with a godfather who is, or was and still to this day, one of the most famous singers ever in George Michael. And growing up with George, I saw very quickly that the more famous you get, it does not become more fun. It doesn't. You don't know who's your friend, you don't know those types of things. And I think that that can lead people to be in a bit of a troubled situation. You don't have a good core friend group, like a big core friend group, that can lead to everyone around you being "yes men" that just want to be on the payroll, that will do something because they think that it'll help in their career and those types of things. I'm uber fortunate, I've got a really nice friend group. And the artists that I know that have those incredible friend groups are just amazing people. Like Ed Sheeran? Yeah, Ed is incredible. But Ed's values are so correct. And his parents are lovely people as well. They're just people that understand that this is just fun, the creativeness is just the fun. All the fame and those types of things are just a side note. Ed does everything he does now I'm sure because he's so family orientated. And that's so important. He's married to Cherry who's his childhood sweetheart. It's the same—I'll give you another example—Niall Horan's one of my good mates. Niall's friend group is all his friend group from young. From school. Young. And they will kill him in conversations or like his cousins will rip him to shreds and all those types of things. And all it does is just ground him constantly. And it's that grounding nature that if you don't have that within this world or that world, you're going to struggle. Justin for instance was someone that was taken at like nine. He didn't have a chance to build a proper friend group. Didn't even have a chance. And so you worry for people like that because you know that's why he's now found faith and that's his thing and that is his grounding moment in his life. And his wife, of course, she seems to be a good anchor. That's what I mean. So for him he has those things. For me it is those core group of mates.
And you must meet a couple that you're a bit concerned about in terms of—because I've met a couple of famous people and I thought, "Fucking hell, they're not happy." Could you feel it when you meet them with their energy?
All the time, instantly. There's a few people that I don't even know that well and I've ended up having to reach out to because I feel like I probably should. And it's sad. It's a really sad existence. Money can make you feel amazing, 100 percent. It can buy happiness, but that happiness can run out. As quickly as your bank balance can run out, that happiness can run out. And people struggle. They really struggle. And this is again, this is another thing what I learned with making the doc about suicide and talking about mental health was the first thing I saw when people heard it—a press release came out saying that I was doing a documentary about suicide. Twitter was like, "What does a celebrity kid know about struggling and mental health?" But the thing is is that those struggles that you see artists going through or addiction problems or those types of things, it's all just it's only relevant to what their life is. The problem that someone in a lower class system has in their head will be just as high as someone in an upper class system because it's just relevant to the circumstance and it's big in their head. And that's what people have to understand is that no matter what the problem is—people say "Oh it's an upper class problem" or whatever, "first world problem," that's what people say right? It's not that that's not to be looked at, it's just something that that's what's affecting you. And you don't wear a uniform for depression. There isn't a job title for depression.
One of the things you said at the start of this conversation was about one of the expectations that you do feel a bit of pressure to meet is the one in your sort of romantic life. I've struggled with that for a long time, I've got to be honest. Struggled with girlfriends, dating, all that stuff, Tinder, all of the way that people date in the modern age, and just finding good people and really putting the effort in because I can't be bothered with the small talk. Tell me about that. Are you a single man right now?
I am a single man right now, yes. It's to be honest, it's like my one thing that I struggle with. And look, I've had girlfriends that in the past where I've been an absolute asshole, of course, like I've let work get in the way, I've let that lifestyle kind of get in the way. But the one thing that I know is that I want that relationship I see my mom and dad have. I want that like more than anything. And I think the thing that I panic about more is—it's an odd thing, but like for me, I think it's an insecurity that a lot of men have that never talk about as well which is, "Will I be able to have kids when I'm older?" People never talk about that! I never hear any of my mates talk about that, but I'm always like, "Ah that's my biggest fear." If someone says "What's your biggest fear?" that. Because I think that my soul purpose on this life is just to make other people that are nice. That's how I feel. So for me is I'm such a family person. I feel like at this point in time I worry that if I got into something, would I be able to give that person what they deserve in terms of being a partner? Because I am work-focused and I am enjoying my life right now, I'm enjoying doing what I'm doing and I don't want to defer from that.
Have you struggled when you're in a relationship and if so, what is the reason why you struggle in relationships?
I struggled in relationships in the past and I still will struggle now going forward because I always have this massive fear that there is resentment on my future partner's part. I couldn't be with someone that doesn't really work or do those things because I'd be so scared that they'd look at me and think "Oh well it's fine for him because he can get this or afford this or do this and this and this." I always try my best to make sure that I'm with someone that I can raise up as much as people on the outside raise me up. Because that's a horrible thing that I see so much. And I go through it even now. People come up to me and they go, "Oh my God your dad is such an amazing person, do you think about you with your dad and with your dad," and I'm like "Yeah but my mom is wicked!" Like, you know what I mean? And that I think that worry that I always had for my mom and I always felt like I had to stand up for my mom and be like, "Hang on, she played at Live Aid as well. She had a number one record as well." I always feel like I worry about that in a partner and I want to always make sure that a partner knows that, that no matter how many people are coming up to me and saying "Oh you're doing really well, doing really well," I'll always be there and say "Yeah but she's doing this."
That's so interesting. Do you know what? I don't. Because I've not been through that.
Yeah but that's the thing that I think is so important. I see so many asshole people and I've seen it my whole life, right, that are celebrities that they introduce themselves or you speak to them and their partner just stands there. They don't even introduce them to you. And you must have seen that growing up because that feels like it's very front of mind for you. Yeah for sure, people just don't want to talk to my dad. But it's like, you know, it's a partnership. My dad and my mom now are fine. But I don't want that. I don't want my partner to feel like everyone just wants to talk to Roman. I don't want that. I really don't. And for my partner to think what I do isn't as good as what he does or doesn't earn as much money as what he does or doesn't get as much gratification as he does.
Does that mean that you go for...?
No, it means that I go for—I have—I love women that have their own life going on or are busier. That attracts me more than anything. You look at the girls that I've dated in the past, they're girls that are doing their own thing and they're fucking good at it. And it's one of the reasons—to be totally honest with you—it's one of the reasons why I don't really date English girls. Ever. I love someone not knowing what I do for a living. I love someone not caring at all.
If I was to ask one of your two last exes "Why did your relationship with Roman end?", what do you reckon they'd say?
Too focused on work. Too focused on what he's doing. I'd say that.
That's interesting. I was that guy for a long time, maybe still am.
But there's nothing wrong with being that! And that's what I have to learn. There's nothing wrong with being that because if you are happy in your life, if you are getting that fulfillment—which I feel like I am—then that's okay. There's a time for everything.
Yeah. I see it as—for me it was like a chapter. So there was a phase of my life where I was very, very, very selfish, but I always wanted romantic connection and a relationship. I started to actually learn the importance of it, studying some stuff and seeing that men that had a romantic partner for their lives lived several years longer, got ill way less. And I was thinking, "Okay, maybe having a relationship is equally important as just making millions of pounds." And then I started to feel, I don't know, you get older, you've had a lot of sex with a lot of people that you just can't remember and you thought, "Well that wasn't it, that didn't feel great the day after." So you go "Okay this is more substantive to have a meaningful relationship." And then I started to realize that, "Okay this is only ever going to work if I compromise a little bit sometimes." And also find someone worth compromising for.
Yeah, but a relationship is all about compromise. That's it. It's always about compromise. And it's about finding someone that is your best friend, not someone that you just find really fit.
Are you compromising, do you think?
At the minute, I'm not because I feel like at this moment in time—and I'll be totally honest with you—after I lost Joe, I kind of got in this mindset where I was like, "You know what, I just need to live my life, I just need to do what I want to do and not feel like if I didn't personally, I didn't want to get into a relationship because I felt like some of my relationships or some of the moments that I've been with people, I feel like I wasted my time." And I can't not feel like that. So many people, so many girls feel like that about guys that they've dated, I'm sure that listen to this podcast. And I felt like that too. And I felt like, "You know what, why was I trying to compromise when I need to enjoy myself a little bit and find that kind of happiness?" And I firmly believe that that time will come. I'm definitely a relationship person, 100 percent. But I believe that time will come, but right now I just know that—it's more so in my head it's like I know that I could get into seeing someone or whatever, but I just know that it'll reach a point where I can't give them what they deserve. And a girl doesn't deserve to have someone that might be too tired that day to even text them. I'm someone that likes my own space. So it's hard.
So looking forward at the future then, one of the things you said earlier was that you are the type of guy that knocks on the door of your boss's office and says, "Listen, I want that show. This is what I want." So tell me what it is that you want looking forward professionally in your future.
As to where I am right now, I'm very happy where I am right now. Like, very happy. Therefore I'm not urging myself to knock on any doors, genuinely. There are things that I feel passionate about which I really feel like I'm going to make this and I want to make this, going back to schools and mental health which I think is a really important thing and I have a platform and to be able to do it so I will do that. I think the common question that I always get asked is, "Oh yeah, so what's the next step, TV?" and it's like, no. I'm 28 years old and I've got, in my opinion, the best job in the UK. I get to wake up every day and feel like I'm back at school waking people up every day. That time will come, that pressure that I'll put on myself to go and find the next thing or to think about where I want to move next will come later on. Right now I'm in a genuine position where I love what I do. I get up at silly o'clock but second I'm there I'm happy and enjoying it. And I don't feel like—you know we spoke about this earlier on—as a presenter I if I came out of radio tomorrow, I'd be worried. I'd be thinking, "Oh shit, have I been on TV enough this month? Have I tweeted enough? Have I done Instagram enough?" I love the fact that my job now, I don't have to think about that. I don't have to post on Instagram if I don't want to because I've just spoken to seven million people that week. And been with them through a journey every single day. The pandemic was an amazing thing. I remember I had two weeks' holiday in April 2020 and I was going to take it and my dad called me and he was like, "You can't." I was like, "What do you mean?" "You can't go on holiday." He was like, "This is the most important time that you will ever have to help, to be with people and go through this with them. You can't just walk away. They're relying on you to do that. This is your responsibility to do that." He actually got quite angry at me because he was just like, "No, it's your responsibility to do that, to provide some form of normality for those people." And so I did and throughout the pandemic it was just—we created these relationships with people that are working and you realize how much radio means and you create friendships with listeners and with people up and down the country that you meet. And that to be able to go in every day and say that's my job is amazing thing. And I really truly genuinely love it.
In the spirit of one of the things you said to me during this conversation, now that we've been talking for a little while, I feel like I have to ask you: how are you doing?
I'm doing alright. I'm doing alright. There are bad days where you kind of think, "Do I really want to be in talking about suicide? Do I really want to be going over a trauma that's in my head? Do I really want to sack in the whole job and just—I've got enough money now to live a nice little life somewhere quiet and just go and do that?" But I think those are all kind of moments in my life that, you know, moving forward and like you said, I think there's so much more life for me to learn. I think that I am happy. If I think about it, I am happy. I'm proud of the things that I've achieved, little things that I've achieved. You know, whenever people ask me what I'm going to do in five years, I'd rather say to them, "Well this is what I did five years ago." The last five years would look pretty decent. So I'm comfortable in my ability moving forward. I'm definitely tired, which is one thing, always tired. Physically fatigued way, which getting up at 4:30 will do to you. Fucking hell, yeah. But no, I'm okay. As I say, there's up days and there's down days, but those down days, I'm pleased as well that I've got a good core friend group around me. I'm glad that I've got my parents around me. I'm glad that I've gone out there and I've taught myself the tools that I need to go and fight Mike Tyson in there and be able to go up against him. And that's why I feel passionate to be able to go and do that for kids now.
We have a closing tradition. Each guest that comes on the podcast writes a question for the next guest inside of the Diary of a CEO.
Okay.
How could you be more authentically you?
By being off my phone, I'd say. And I mean that just because when I did *I'm A Celebrity... Get Me Out Of Here!*, that was the happiest I've ever been. Easily. In there, I was Ro, which is what my friends know me as. That was me. This here is someone who has to work, has to do all these types of things and has all these other sides. But there I didn't have any phone, no expectation, no nothing. I completely forgot cameras were on you, all those types of situations. So for sure, the more I can stop working and enjoy moments without work, that's how I can be more authentically me.
Interesting. Thank you so much. Honestly, Roman, you know, the amount of value that your openness to do what you're doing—and I see it as you are doing a service for society—and especially because of the horrific nature of the statistics around mental health and suicide. I can't tell you, even for me, what this conversation has done in terms of opening my eyes. And so I just want to thank you. Because I also don't envy the position of people coming up to you all the time and talking about a topic like that. I find it hard just even now people talking to me about "Oh here's my business idea!" And sometimes I open my DMs and I'm having a good day working out and then I'll see a message which is very—of a similar vein which is very, very tragic and it will just push me off a little bit. So for you to choose knowingly to put yourself in the position of being an involuntary ambassador of this topic is such a selfless—do you find it hard saying "suicide"?
You do. There's a little part of you that stops yourself there. Yeah. It's so weird. It's not a swear word. When I first did the documentary—sorry to cut you off though—please continue telling me how great I am. But when I first started making the documentary, I felt like and you're, you know, we're going to talk today about—it's a weird word but it's a normal word. It's life. Again it's the biggest killer for men our age. Suicide is a very normal word.
It makes you feel uncomfortable, doesn't it?
Yes. And that's what has to stop. But I just could see in your eye there and I just thought, I'm an ambassador for suicide! Yeah. It sounds—you know what, suicide, it sounds like it's a really emotional word. So with emotional words we tend to use them sparingly. But I was just intrigued because it's something that I had.
Let me finish just telling how great you are. No, but I genuinely mean that from the bottom of my heart. Like it's—what you're doing, as I said, I don't envy it, it's not easy. But the service, the tremendous I think service it's doing to society at a time when we need it the most and we need people that are willing to have those conversations and be honest because a lot of men are still caged is it's like impossible to quantify. I don't think you'll ever get to see the good you do. But I just want you to know from my perspective and just on me personally from seeing that documentary that God it feels—I can't think of many greater goods that someone could do for men in this day and age. So thank you as a man, but as just as a citizen of society as well. Thank you.
Well I very much appreciate that and thank you for having me on your podcast.
Thank you so much, Roman. Appreciate it.
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