Patricia Bright: How She Made Her Millions
Guests: Patricia
Full transcript · Read the full conversation in order, with its original context.
§01Transcript — part 1
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This is like a therapy session.
Patricia Bright. She’s a creator, author, entrepreneur, and a mother. She has a remarkable, inspiring story. Growing up on a council estate, having her dad deported when she was just five years old. A Nigerian mother that came to this country doing cleaning jobs at night, which she took Patricia along to with her.
That mother became a property mogul. And Patricia, she became a superstar in her own right. So it's no surprise that when I looked at the comments section on a previous podcast episode, a comment requesting Patricia Bright to sit here with me and to be on this podcast had over 100 upvotes.
And now I know why. Her attitude, perspective, ambition, self-belief, and resilience are incredible. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody is listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.
Patricia.
Yes!
We share one big similarity with our childhoods in the fact that we both had Nigerian mothers.
We did! Okay. I didn’t know that.
Really? No, I didn't actually. Well, I still have a Nigerian mother, so I shouldn't say "had." But yeah, we both have Nigerian mothers. And I believe both of our Nigerian mothers moved from Nigeria to the UK.
Yeah, yeah.
So they were both born in Nigeria. So the authentic roots are there. Tell me about the rest of your childhood. I only had one Nigerian parent. I hear you had two.
Right, okay. Yeah, I had both my mom and dad growing up. But my dad was actually deported. So he got deported when I was probably like six years old. I actually remember the experience of his deportation as being something very traumatic.
In hindsight, as an adult, I recognize that. But growing up with an African mom and an African dad, our culture was just a part of us on an everyday basis. But also, I was from South London as well. So I kind of grew up in Battersea and I came from a very diverse school. But I always went back to like a very African home. And yeah, I think it really shaped me to who I am today.
In what ways?
I think it’s that kind of—I’m going to say aggression. There’s something about Nigerians out of all other people from the diaspora that I think means that we’re quite aggressive and very passionate. Let’s not say aggressive, let’s say passionate. We’re intense. We know what we want.
There’s also a huge sense of pride as well, that we can do anything and we’re good. I feel very privileged that I had a lot of that "you’re great, you’ll do well, you’ll be successful, don’t worry about what’s going on, don’t see reality as a definition of a limitation for yourself."
I think that that’s really made me do a lot of things that supposedly I shouldn't be able to do. But that kind of upbringing made me be like, "No, I can do it. It’s fine." It was always fine. I watched my mom do a lot of things that would be considered impossible for her, and she just did it with ease and chaos, in my opinion now. But somehow she achieved those things. I feel very privileged to grow up with that sense of confidence instilled in me, which I think is really cultural as a Nigerian.
And I bet she didn't complain either.
Oh, there was no complaining. She just got on with it. Even when my dad was deported, she just got on with it. And there were times that growing up, my mom used to work on the trains, so she was one of the train cleaners. My sister is three and I'm five.
She’d go out at night and leave us because there was no one to look after her kids. She’d go out, she’d clean, she’d clean offices. Or she’d take us to offices to clean the offices when we were younger. And she just did it. We’d go to school and she would say, "Just don’t tell anyone that you’re working at 5:00 in the morning."
Obviously, you’re not going to go to school and tell people, "Oh, I’ve just been at Foxtons cleaning and helping my mom out." You’d just go to school in the morning and act like everything was normal. But no, there wasn’t any complaining and she just kind of got on with it.
And do you think you referred to that as being—that gave you kind of confidence that you could do anything. But for me, it sounds a lot like because that immigrant story is so connected with survival. That’s why I talked about how she didn’t complain, because a lot of complaint comes from privilege almost, doesn’t it? When you feel like you have a choice.
Yeah, but what’s really also really interesting is that some people still feel lucky. The fact that she wasn’t deported when my dad was deported, she probably felt, "Oh my God, I’m so lucky I got to stay here." Why would you complain when you feel like you’re in a better position for yourself and your children in the long term?
So yeah, she didn't have the privilege of wanting to complain. But I think she was really happy to still be here. Though she had to work hard, I think she knew that she had a lot of opportunity while being here. She retrained, she became a nurse, then she bought property, and then she retired in her 40s. I love England in that it’s kind of like the land of opportunity for those who really want to work out what to do and use it. So I think she could see that that was possible for her.
And you talked about that day when you were six years old when there was a knock on the door at nighttime.
It might have been at night, it might have been in the middle of the day to be honest. What I do remember is literally about four burly police officers walking in shouting, screaming. There’s me as a five-year-old, my sister as a three-year-old, my mom in tears.
They were literally dragging my dad out of the house. And it was like, "Your dad’s gone." At that one moment. And we didn’t see him again for seven years afterwards. So it was like—at the time, I never processed it. It’s only in the last year or two I’ve processed how kind of traumatic that kind of experience would have been for me as a child.
I think it’s also made me really be fearful of loss, which is why I work so hard, so that things like that don’t happen hopefully to me and my family in the future.
So in the last couple of years, you’ve had time to reflect on that. And you’re saying—did you choose to reflect on that or go through the journey of reflecting on that because you could see things in your behavior that you thought, "Maybe that's connected"?
I didn’t even recognize it. I knew that there was—like, I work really hard. I’m really intense and I’m always like, "Let’s just keep going." I’m always like that. And until I literally started therapy, I was like, "Where does that come from?"
It then got uncovered in my therapy sessions that actually, maybe one of the triggers for me working hard was because of that fear of loss. And obviously, there are other aspects as well. I just like hustling, that’s fun. But there was also maybe this thing here that was one of my drivers that I’ve actually used in a positive way. But it’s also important to kind of reflect on dealing with things like that. I think I came from a place of, "No, it happened. That just happened, it’s fine. On to the next." Whereas when you sit down and talk about it, you’re like, "Oh, that’s not great. That’s not a great situation."
Five years old, as well. It must have taught you something about something, even if that lesson was wrong. That’s the way I think about it. I’m like, that must have taught you something about the nature of life. Because at five years old, you’re learning what the world means and what power means, and your dad and your mom. It must have taught you some lesson about something even if that lesson was wrong, right?
Yeah, exactly. I mean, I didn’t even realize that it could have been teaching me something. No idea. But maybe that stuff happens. That’s life. You’re not really in control of anything. But things like that can’t stop you.
Yeah, I think if my parents were snatched out of my house, I definitely wouldn’t feel safe. I wouldn’t feel safe. Because parents represent the foundation of safety in your life. This is my house, these are my parents, and they just *are*. And then one of those things is snatched out, it makes you insecure about ever feeling too safe to some degree.
Yeah, but I think for me, maybe mine was that I can't rely on the system or other people to secure my safety. And so I kind of am always trying to make sure I secure myself with the actions that I take, because those are the only things I’m in control of. So I’m very much like, "I’ll do it myself. I’ll sort it out myself. Don’t worry, because you never know what’s going to happen there." And I like that as a person.
Does that make you paranoid about everything professionally?
No, it makes me really objective. I’m like a pure realist. Like, something is probably going to go wrong at some point in time, and that’s fine. How are you going to handle that? It’s almost like I prepare for something to go wrong in a way.
This is like a therapy session.
No, I mean, this is pretty much what this podcast is. Okay, great!
Well no, I think when I started this podcast, I was anticipating finding these wild differences between everybody. But in fact, I found the opposite, which is that fundamentally we’re all very, very similar when it relates to things like insecurity and safety and childhood.
Obviously, because in many respects you’ve gone on to create a career for yourself that is so different from so many. You think, "Well, what was the initial catalyst that caused that person to be different? What was the environment—it’s almost like a cauldron. What was the furnace they were scalded in to make them then more hardworking or obsessed or whatever?" Having a Nigerian mother, I already know what *that* part is like.
You could call it a cauldron!
Definitely! But that work ethic piece as well, which is quite absent in this culture. And that’s where we talked about complaining. You referred to this as the "land of opportunity." How does that make you feel when you see people who have a much more, let’s say, financially privileged start to life, and they don’t fully understand the land of opportunity?
My first thought is an eye roll, like, "Oh, there you go moaning or complaining." But I also realize that there’s so many different types of privileges that people have that can actually provide them a long-term foundation. I think some people have financial privilege, but they have no love, they have no hope, they have no one to tell them that they’re good.
I may not have had the financial privileges, but I had a mom who was so loving and so caring and so encouraging that I was in a better position just because I had that. So I don't want to ever tell someone that you're privileged because of X, Y, and Z. Maybe in other areas, they didn't have the support that they needed to actually spur them on to be the best version of themselves. So I try not to be that judgmental anymore because there’s so many different categorizations of privilege.
And at some point, your mom retrained herself, she became a nurse, which is amazing. And off you went to university.
I did, yeah. I went off to university, MMU.
We have a similarity again!
Oh my God, I love that. Yeah!
I lasted one lecture, though.
I was there for all three years, but I just would drop out—well, I didn't drop out. Okay, great. We have that in common because I was barely there. But I had a great social life! I was really enjoying it. Manchester is great.
It’s great. Yeah, no, I went to university after leaving home and I was so ready to get out of my house and get out of London and try something new and find myself in a new city. I actually went in to do Fashion Marketing and, to my parents' despair—because again, as an African, you don’t do fashion. That’s not a real course. You do Accounting, you do Law, you do Business. You don’t do Fashion Marketing.
But I think I’ve always had this kind of more creative streak, as well as a rebellious streak as well. I’m going to do what I want to do. But funnily, I kind of went there to do fashion but changed my course to Accounting and Finance because I realized that there was no financial hope in fashion. I was like, "Oh, I’m not going to be broke when I leave university. Hell no." So I changed.
Purely on that basis?
Purely on that basis. I didn’t love my course. And then when they were doing internship opportunities, they were paying interns 8k a year, 10k a year, and graduate starting salaries were like 8k. I was like, "I am not rich enough to do this, no way." And then I found out about Accounting and Finance and they were—like, the banks that had really good opportunities. And I was really good at the accounting because we had a module in the Fashion Marketing and I smashed it. I was like, "I’ll do Accounting and Finance."
Wow. You said at this point that your parents—typical Nigerian parents. My mom was the same. When I actually dropped out is when I got hell. Because that’s even worse. Rather you’re doing *something* at university. I feel like part of it is just so she can tell her friends or something.
Oh, it’s a fact. "My child is at university" is what they tell all the aunties. Like, it’s very important.
And at that point, your dad was back in your life?
Yes. So by the time I was about 12, he came back. Fundamentally, they defined his deportation as an illegal deportation. But I remember going to the court cases and my mom pleading with social services and lawyers and just people, "Help us, help us get our dad back. How do we do this?"
And then we went to the court case and she was like, "I don’t know why this man was deported. Gavel down, bring him back." I was like, "That took seven years for you guys to do that?" But he got back and he just started again. Worked as a security guard, did all that kind of stuff, and then ended up working in the Home Office. For immigration. Which is so random because he was deported.
Are you pissed off about that? The fact that you lost your dad for seven years for what sounds like was a bit of a mistake or just negligence? Or at least a lack of empathy to take a dad from their kids for what?
Am I? I’m not pissed off. Maybe I haven’t processed it enough to be pissed off. It just felt like, "It is what it is and this is how it went." I felt more upset for my mom in that I know how difficult it was for her to have us and have responsibilities and deal with like managing this court case. She managed it her entire self. She represented herself because she didn’t have money for like lawyers and stuff. So she was under a lot of stress. But she did it and she did other stuff as well. So that was really the main thing that kind of upset me, I’d say.
When your dad came back, did you have a relationship with him?
It was weird. It was so weird. It’s like, "This is my dad? Hi, Dad." Like, how do we have a relationship with a man we haven't seen for seven years? But you know, he was the kind of—stoic African dad.
So I remember he always gave me an envelope with money at the beginning of term. "Well done, look after yourself. Okay, how’s the weather? Are you reading your books? Yes, Dad. Yes, Dad. Okay, good." It was that kind of relationship, but I knew it was still caring. It was the way he kind of communicated his care for me, which is that envelope of cash.
And that’s probably like a Nigerian generational cycle of male figures just being a bit standoffish but caring.
And when they ask you certain questions, whether it’s about the weather or your studies, "How are your studies going?" like, that’s just—they don’t really know what else to ask you. But them asking you that is powerful. My dad calls me every day. "Hi, how are you? Fine, Dad. How are the kids? Fine, Dad. Okay, bye."
It’s just that checking in, which is really—I like it. I think that’s probably also just a male issue. I think men typically aren’t as emotionally open, so they don’t build that—because connection seems to be built on vulnerability, and they seem to have a bit of a guard up. My dad is definitely exactly the same. The questions are so surface level. "Are you okay? Yes. Okay, goodbye. Let me know if you’re not. Okay, exactly."
So MMU, you go there, you feel a bit out of place.
Quite out of place. Because I’d never left London and I had to make new friends and I didn’t know anyone and I wasn’t really good at it. I couldn’t really find my tribe very early on. I was on a campus really far away. I was on the Didsbury campus.
Out of town, right? And then there was the main campus for Manchester University that everyone was at.
That's where I was!
I wasn’t there! In the spot!
It was great. And I’m in Didsbury where I was like, "Come on." And I actually ended up moving out of my halls of residence and crashing with a number of girls in that main campus. I would move from room to room. So once one friend got annoyed with me after two weeks, I’d stay with another for two weeks, and then I’d just go back and forth like a nomad for a bit.
And you change course to accounting. In hindsight, how important was it? How pivotal was it for you to have an understanding of finance for everything that would then come in your career? Because I feel like finance is such a neglected topic for kids. I wish someone had told me about credit scores before I smashed mine.
Okay, so the moving role was pivotal for my life. It set me up on a completely different trajectory that I wouldn't have even been aware of. Because off the back of that role, I worked at all the top four companies in the world in finance. I worked at Merrill Lynch and Deloitte Consulting, banks, all of that stuff. I would have never done that if I’d stayed in fashion. When it came to it from a personal finance perspective, it didn’t prepare me at all.
Really?
Not a clue. I owed the taxman money. I got my taxes wrong. I had to pay fines. I had no clue what I was actually doing. I had the degree, I had the 2:1, great, you’ve passed. How do you actually apply financial knowledge to running your own business? To your everyday personal taxes? I didn’t have a clue. Spent the money, bought bags, made extra money on the side, spent it all. I owed the taxman and I wasn’t prepared.
Well, I mean, that’s a great advert for Manchester Metropolitan University!
Maybe it was just me! Maybe I was just young and dumb. But it helped me from a career perspective. But a lot of the financial courses out there don’t help people be better themselves with money.
And that psychology point. Because money is such an emotional thing, especially as an immigrant. And you grew up on a council estate, right? Growing up on a council estate, getting money—dangerous concoction for buying a Lamborghini or fucking up with some Chanel bag or some shit.
Exactly. But like, I grew up on a council estate. And then my mom bought her council house for 17 grand, sold that house for 250 grand, used that money to build a property empire. And that’s how she ended up retiring.
So when I was in Manchester, my mom bought like three houses in Manchester. So I was doing property management while being a student. So I was still running business-y stuff as a student. So even though I came from the council background, I’d seen how hustle and money could be made in that I didn’t have to be broke forever if I was kind of smart about it.
Your mom sounds like a beast. She bought three houses while you were in Manchester?
Yeah. Well, they were—they were great. They were just in it for the flip. Exactly.
So you start at some point blogging while at university. And why did you turn to blogging? Why was that a compelling path?
Blogging or vlogging, I kind of went into it because I kind of had like a friendship fallout and I became a bit of a loner. I didn’t have a big social group. People would go out without me. I lived with a group of girls and they’d all go out together and I’d be like left at home by myself. So I found online communities.
I was part of different forums before Reddit was Reddit, before YouTube existed. There were forums where girls would talk to each other about beauty and makeup. I’d spend hours writing to these girls across the world and sending them pictures. Before Instagram, there was Fotki. There were all these platforms where we were communicating.
And then some of the girls would send videos to each other of like their new hair and their new makeup. So random. And then YouTube had just launched. "This is a great way to send videos to each other." And so I kind of got sucked up in communicating with all the people that I met online because my real life wasn’t that great.
And I guess when you started in YouTube, you never thought it was anything more than a hobby.
Oh no, it wasn’t a thing. At the time of me watching YouTube and kind of creating on the platform, there wasn’t actually that many people on there. And so like little artists could go viral. There was a song "Chocolate Rain." I don’t know if you guys remember that.
I remember with the black guy with the afro? Yeah, the purple—yeah.
That was like mind-blowingly amazing. And then there was Michelle Phan. She was like the main beauty girl that was really killing it. So it was such a small little ecosystem that wasn’t a business, but it was genuinely about connecting and talking to other people online.
Why did you do so well, in hindsight, on YouTube?
Honestly, length of time. Like I was just doing it for a really long time. And I was very transparent. Like I was so transparent. I was putting a lot of information out there. I wasn’t that strategic with it, but I loved talking to people online. They were literally my friends. And I used it a bit like an online diary in a way very early on. But it wasn’t like a full-time thing. I was interning and working. But I think eventually I got really strategic about it and that’s when I saw more growth—or huge growth.
You were saying there you first started the online forums and stuff at a time when you’d fallen out with your flatmates. I guess from what it sounds like YouTube was giving you that sense of community that you weren’t getting in the real world.
Fact. Yes, definitely. I didn’t have a huge social life after the fallout. And I had so much solace with just this online community. I never felt lonely because I could log in and there’d be someone on there and I could read all the forum updates and talk to the girls who were into the things that I was into. They were all over the world. It was just really nice to have friends—my own friends.
You referred to the fallout as if it was a really pivotal moment in your life.
It wasn’t that pivotal. But it’s quite hard when you’re at uni and your friends are off doing stuff and meeting people and then you don’t have anything to do or they’re not talking to you. It feels like a big thing. In real life, it’s really not a big thing. But at the time it was like, "I’m so lonely. I’ll go online."
Well, good thing you did! What a journey. And you say consistency—you point to consistency as being the real factor to your success. But consistency must come from enjoying it. Because there will be a lot of people listening to this thinking, "I want to be a YouTuber." I mean, everybody seems to want to be a YouTuber these days. But the insanity to do it as long as you did without the guarantee of money must have come from somewhere.
There was no guarantee of money. It was a hobby. Like if you’re a painter, you like painting at the weekend. You’re going to paint anyway whether someone pays you for your art or not, you just enjoy doing it. So I just enjoyed making videos that other girls watched and I could talk to the other girls. So I didn’t get paid for like four years. But I was always uploading every weekend. It was my hobby. It wasn’t "this is going to be my new job." Which is why I even struggle with it now in that I really want to enjoy it in the same way that I always enjoyed it. And do I need to look for a new hobby? And is now YouTube my job? Like, I find it really hard to kind of balance the fact that this thing that was my escape is kind of like my job now.
I was talking to one of the guests on the podcast a couple of weeks ago about this study where when someone gets paid to do a task they used to love doing, they lose motivation for it. And it’s just mental. They do this study where they give people this game, people enjoy doing the game. They then say, "We’re going to ask you to do the game again but this time you’re going to get paid." The other group don’t get paid. And the group that got paid to do the thing they just enjoyed doing lose motivation. Doesn’t it make a lot of sense?
YouTube stop paying me! No, I like those checks! That is insane.
It’s crazy. You lose internal motivation when some of the reason for doing it becomes extrinsic—monetary. So this is—it’s tough, isn’t it?
It’s really tough because people are like, "Oh my God, what a privileged conversation." But it’s not. Like say imagine someone is like a darts player or something, right? But eventually, once they get into the competitive sports of darts, maybe it becomes a bit more stressful. Maybe they don’t enjoy it as much. Maybe the challenge of doing it is now I’ve got to perform for my management and the crew or whatever. I don’t know if there’s a dart crew! I just made that up. But that becomes more pressure than the person who just wanted to play darts on a Saturday night would feel.
And you feel that?
No. No. The reason being is that I try to frame what I do as I’ve accepted that I have a huge desire to create stuff. That’s it. So as long as I focus on "this process is creation, this process is creation," I’ll be fine. And that might mean saying no to work and no to sponsorships for a season, so I can at least feel that creation because I am very much like, "How do I feel about this?" Which is kind of bad, but also it’s allowed me to do what I’m doing.
Feels like a good long-term strategy. Because if you’re not asking that question in the short term, "How do I feel about this?" so many people—and in fact, I think the guest that just sat in that chair last—you end up gradually becoming someone you never intended to be and ending up somewhere you never intended to go. So that constant asking of that question, "How do I feel about this today?" which as you alluded to, means turning down money sometimes. But thinking longer term about what you’re doing and why you’re doing it, I think is so critical.
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We’ve got two guests that have come to watch this podcast today and Sophia—I said, "Sophia, you know, she’s followed you for some time." I said, "Sophia, if you could ask Patricia any question, what would it be?" She said to me, "How did she find the confidence to make the leap from that sort of corporate career to going full-time with this thing called YouTube?"
So for me, my confidence came from an Excel spreadsheet. I am not a risk-taker. I’m more of a steady and stable person. But I did a bit of maths, I did a bit of a projection. I looked at what my long-term potential earnings and lifestyle would look like if I stayed in the banking industry. And then I looked at what my numbers were looking like as a creator, where could I take it?
And even at that time, I had no clue I could get to where I am today, but the numbers looked healthy enough. So I was like, "Okay, I’ll take the leap." Even if I do it for two years, it could be okay. And I didn’t just jump out. I kind of took a toe dip in and I quit my job, but then I took another job that was part-time so I could make content and have a job as well.
And you call your mom and you say, "I’m quitting my job"?
I didn’t tell her! I didn’t tell my mom, I didn’t tell anybody. What? You’ve quit your big banking job? Oh hell no. I could never do that. So I knew my parents would be worried and scared.
Should we tell them now?
No, they know now! So Mom, I left my job. They barely know what I do right now. They’re like, "Oh well done, well done." It’s fine.
But yeah, so you took that leap into YouTube. Was there a moment where you think, "Fuck, this is moving, this is it"? Or was it just one step at a time?
Slow and steady. Slow and steady. I was making—I had been making content for seven years and then I got to a million subscribers. So I didn’t have any of those really viral moments. And I saw lots of people kind of steamroll ahead of me. Go viral. They were part of these groups and these crews and, you know, there was a time that there was the thing called the Brit Pack. They were all there and I was just like in the corner by myself like prodding along. And then inevitably my time came and it took again that seven years to one million, and then one more year to another million and a half. And I then had my own viral moments off the back of myself. But I never kind of took the step back to be like, "Oh, you’ve made it." Because I never feel like I’ve made it.
Not even now?
Nah, not yet.
A lot of people might be surprised by that.
Maybe. But it depends on someone’s personal definition of making it, right?
And what’s yours?
World domination! What is mine? It’s not just being popular on social media. That’s not my complete definition of success, right? I think for me, it’s like creating things that I want to create when I want to create them and monetizing them and bringing value. So if I say my overall thing, that’s it. What that looks like, I don’t know just yet.
And you don’t think you’re there yet? You don’t think you’re creating things that you really—?
Oh, I’m doing it. I’m doing it, but I don’t think I’ve had like one big thing yet. Does anyone have one big thing though?
I don’t know. I think that—you know, I think if you’d gone back and asked Patricia when she was at MMU what her making it looked like, you would have said 100,000 followers on YouTube, free clothes, free food. So maybe the goalpost is just moving off into the future and maybe that speaks to what life is—it’s just that journey as opposed to that destination.
Yeah, yeah.
And influencers. Being an influencer. Talk to me about that. When I say it, what do you think about the lifestyle, the stigma, etc., etc.?
When people say influencer, I think there’s a little cringe when they say it. But I think this concept of being influential has always been around. But it’s always been around with the hands of the upper echelon of people. Only certain people are picked by certain industries to be influential. But what I love is like now there’s this democratization. People can choose who they want to be influenced by. And how I got in my position is because people liked me. They decided that actually, "I want to hear what Patricia has to say. I want to see what she’s buying. I want to see what she likes." So I think it’s a really powerful tool. We’ve all been influenced. The question is like, we want to choose who those influencers are, I’d say.
It’s a big responsibility to some because I know for a fact that every time something happens in the world, you get a DM: "Patricia, I thought you were with us. Why aren’t you doing 55 Instagram posts about Palestine or Kenya or India or oxygen in the fires in Australia?" I thought you were—it’s a lot.
It’s a lot. It’s a lot. Bearing in mind that my forte is makeup and clothing and maybe finance, to an extent. I feel there is pressure for influencers to speak up on every topic all the time. But we are not credible sources who know everything. We just don’t. And I think it’s really important for us to say we’re ignorant on a matter and we’re learning. But kind of speaking up on stuff that you know nothing about is very, very dangerous and stupid.
And also what is really scary is that if you don’t think the same way that everybody else thinks, you’re in trouble. What if you have an alternative perspective? You’re not allowed to have an alternative perspective. If you ask for peace, whether or not it’s in the Middle East specifically or on a certain matter—oh no way. Because the world wants to keep everything burning. But like personally, I’m like, can this just chill? Like, not just that situation specifically, but a lot of situations I’m like, I just wish it wasn’t happening.
Is that your approach to it? You think generally if I don’t have a proper well-rounded view? Because it’s all well—people message me and say, "Steve, speak on this issue or Black Lives Matter or whatever while I’m still processing it." And what they’re actually saying is, "Share *my* opinion to *your* followers on this issue." And they try and like guilt trip me into it. Especially when it’s a group of people that I can relate to just viscerally—so like my skin color. I’m expected to be the spokesman of all Black people.
Me too as well! Yeah, a lot of nastiness.
What else do you think is unappreciated about being an influencer? You’ve obviously got a big platform. The other thing I was going to say—and this is what I was just thinking as we’re talking—the other day, I’ve been working out for a year and a half now. I always like talking about this.
Love it!
And Grace, who sat behind that curtain over there, I sent her a photo and I said, "I’m going to post like a transformation picture of the before and after." And me and Grace had a conversation because if I was a female and I’d posted that, I would have got ripped to pieces. I would have been told I was toxic, irresponsible, body image, blah blah blah blah blah. I posted it? Fine. 100% of people are like, "Send us your plan," or whatever. And it really made me reflect on how tough it is to be a woman on social media with a big audience. It’s like the standard of perfection in terms of your like morals, what you’re posting, how you’re posting it, what you’re saying is a high bar to reach. Whereas I’m not held to that standard as a guy.
Yeah, yeah. And not surprised. But there’s going to be different standards you’re held by. So with the women, like ours, there’s a lot of pressure around our appearance, or if we’re mothers how we mother, or what we’re wearing. I mean, it’s so random. But I’m sure there’s definitely things that men are going to expect from you that they’re like, "Can’t believe you did this," or something like that.
Even relates to success. It’s like I can come on this podcast and say that the reason I’m successful is because of me. And I can talk about my big old ambitions and I’m going to—but when a woman does it, it’s like—you know what I mean? It just seems like there’s just a total double standard. The fact that I can post me being kind of slightly overweight and out of shape and then like 19-pack—the comments are like, "Woo!" But I know if a woman did the same thing, it would be like, "This is irresponsible. What are you saying? Fat shaming," blah blah blah.
Why is that? Is it because like—men and women are fundamentally different. So I’m presuming that your audience is probably say 60% to 70% male.
80% women!
80% women? For you? Wow. I think women judge men by different standards. So what you’ll see—oh, let’s talk about this. What you’ll actually see in the world of beauty and women’s fashion and industries that are predominantly consumed by women, men are always at the forefront. So the biggest influencers in the beauty industry are five men. Men who wear makeup, right? And—yeah, so men who wear makeup are more popular than—or let’s say three. Men who wear makeup can be bigger and get to bigger stratospheres than any women could. The fashion industry and fashion brands, the majority of them are owned by men and run by men or creative directors are men. Not women. There aren’t a lot of brands that are run and owned by women. And I just think this is something to do with biology, sociology—the way in which kind of women interact with men is different to how we interact with each other. I wish it was different, but I’ve just noticed this like a lot.
And the other point which I kind of alluded to there as well is on this topic of gender disparities—it’s discrediting success. Do people discredit your success?
Do you know what? Not so much. And I think also because I’m a Black woman, people are so happy to see me do well because they feel like it’s rare. And so I think I’m afforded a bit more luxury to be a bit more aggressive about, you know, "I’m pushing, I’m moving hard whether you like it or not." That’s the Nigerian in me coming out. And culturally, I think I’m allowed to celebrate that a lot more because Brits I don’t think like to celebrate people doing too well or being too much. So I can get away with it a little bit more. But I know like there can be tension when I talk about my numbers too much. And I’ll definitely get the messages of, "This is not what you should be talking about. You shouldn’t talk about how much you earn. It’s a bit rude."
Imagine a guy doing it though. "Oh, go on! Show us the Lamborghini again!" You know what I mean? That’s all guys do. That’s how they build their status. I mean, just that’s how it works. I can openly talk about how much money I’ve generated in my companies and no one’s ever going to say, "Oh, that’s so distasteful." They clap. And when women do it, people do go, "Oh God, she’s—that’s not good taste, is it?" And that again is a huge—like Ben Francis, he talks about he’s built a 1.something billion dollar company. Everyone’s like, "Amazing." You know, they can show—men can show the nice things, the cars, the houses, whatever. But the minute Grace Beverly does a house tour—ooh, you can't do it.
I have a video called "How I Made a Million on YouTube," right? And first, it’s got over almost a million views on it. But the comments were so kind of crazy. People are like, "I can’t believe you’re sharing this. We’re really excited." But also like, "You shouldn’t be putting this out there." And what I actually did is—there’s no way I could actually share my actual numbers because I think people would judge me negatively and like fall over, be like, "What the hell? How is it possible?" and like almost want to stop the bag, if that makes any sense. Like people don’t like to see women doing too big numbers. You’ve got to still be humble as a woman.
How do you respond to that though? How does that impact the choices you make? And does it impact the choices—isn’t it sad though?
It really does. So I’ve moved away from putting out my numbers. I’m not going to use my numbers as a strategy or showing my things too much as a strategy. I also bought a couple of properties and I really want to share with people about financial empowerment and property and making money, but I can see almost like a sour taste sometimes in people’s mouths. So I show a bit less of it. I’m not going to show you the new house that I bought or something else. I’m not going to show it as much and I’ve tried to make more relatable content. A lot of us have to be relatable and remain humble to still be considered a good influencer. Just don’t show what you have.
Are you happy with that though? Are you happy to go along with—because when we spoke earlier about what your goal is, it’s to make stuff that really matters to you and that sounds like it’s driven by your terms. What I care about in my way, and not allowing the audience to dictate what you create. That sounded like your North Star. And this being a "good influencer" bit doesn’t sound like it’s going to make you very happy.
Yeah, I think it’s all about being strategic though, right? So like if eventually showing lots of glamorous stuff is going to impact growth, it would be silly for me to keep doing it, right? And again, that’s not my personal strategy anyway. I’ll be honest with you, I don’t want to be like, "Look at my new Lamborghini! Look at my new house!" That’s not who I am as a person. It’s a bit cringe for me and it’s not part of my strategy. But I do want to remain authentic, but I understand that showing too much of my success doesn’t always sit well with people. And I’m happy to like remove that aspect if that makes people more comfortable. And I think that’s because I’m a woman. Like I want people to feel comfortable.
And you’ve started this platform called "The Break."
Yeah, that was it. That was a big passion project turned like great potential business opportunity. And I think for me, that’s like where I decided to start talking about these things. We’re just talking about this now, that people don’t talk about money, women don’t talk about money. On that platform, I am unapologetic and that’s why I shared about the "making a million in a year" or "making a million over a lifetime" and showing how I budget my salary and showing how I bought a house in 10 minutes. I put that all on there because I feel like you know over there is where I’m going to talk about this stuff. So if you like it, it’s there. If you don’t like it, let’s go put on makeup on my other channel. And it’s been just insane to see how it’s grown and how much there is a huge demand for this type of content within this demographic.
It was what was missing when you started out from what you said earlier.
Exactly. And that’s why I created it. Because I was buying all those bags and being a bit reckless and no one told me. Exactly. And the taxman came knocking at my door and I got fined and I was like, "Nobody needs to do this. This is how you incorporate. This is how you get your pension sorted out. This is how you can buy a property through a business." And I was just literally doing all the stuff that I’d kind of learned from my accountant and from the financial mistakes that I’ve made. I really wanted to just say, "Here you go, here’s this information, use this. Make it be valuable to you to help you on your journey."
Do you know in Black culture, growing up, I was watching 50 Cent and all this stuff, and he is a bad financial advisor! Who gets their advice from 50 Cent though? Every young Black man! You know what I mean? And what he told me about bottles and Lamborghinis and stuff, it really hurt me when I was 21 and I finally got money. And I went to the club and I was getting five bottles of Dom Perignon, please. And I blew a lot of cash. And I just wish those role models, like the rappers that I followed when I was younger, I wish they’d told me about credit scores. You know what I mean?
I wish. But that’s not—it’s not sexy. Right? It’s not glamorous. It’s not fun. Like I have a video on pensions. Like 401ks and whether or not you should be making a contribution to your SIP, right? That is not, "Oh, this is glamorous." No one wants to hear that. But there are going to be a few who do take it and use it. I wish we could dress up like credit scores—give it lipstick, give it a Lamborghini. But we haven’t mastered that yet. Maybe I’ll do that later.
But they don’t want people to know the truth. I don’t think anybody wants people to really know the truth about finances. It’s not beneficial. It’s not beneficial to government, it’s not beneficial to corporations, it’s not beneficial to banks and lenders who actually want people to be inept in this area so they can make financial mistakes and then give them more money. Like that’s the reality of it. Like rich people aren’t actually struggling financially. It’s actually everyone else on the maybe lower end of the spectrum who don’t have this information. But this information would transform their lives.
I guess that’s why they call it financial freedom.
There we go. Yeah.
And you said this started as a passion project and now it’s turned into a potential business opportunity. Talk to me about that and where it’s going.
This is a lot. So we really want to build out like a web platform which has content but also tools that people can use. So one of the things that I created was a simple budgeting template and like literally in like two weeks we had like 20,000 people download an Excel spreadsheet on how to manage their day-to-day income. So clearly there’s more that we can do here. We then launched a planner as well, that just sold out in like a day or two, and then we’re launching more of these. So in the long run, I’d like to provide more financial tools and resources that people could use to help them with managing their everyday finances. The dream is like an app, but that takes time to make happen. But we’ve got the designs and we’re doing some testing now to really see how we can build that out further.
Of all the work you’re doing across all these different projects, is this the thing you’re most excited about?
I would say it’s something I’m really excited about because it’s so valuable. So I’m very excited about it. And I think it’s a new challenge. So as an influencer, I work for brands, I make amazing content for them, I get nice things. But now this is my chance to kind of be a brand and create value more so. So it’s really like a new challenge for me that I’m excited to kind of get into.
And when you were saying "we," you know, "we’ve made an Excel document," who is "we"?
So actually, the Excel document I made! But I do have my husband who’s been really supportive and helping me build that out. And then I’ve recruited a COO to help me think about scaling this out. But I’ve had other team members here and there, freelancers here and there. But I know inevitably that scaling is something I’m going to have to be willing to do. And that’s hard for myself to do. Yeah.
Your husband. Michael. Can I call him Mike?
You can call him Mike.
I can see him over there in the corner of the room. He follows you around? What’s it like working with Mike?
Oh, that’s a really good question. So working with Mike—you know what? Michael’s been like with me for every step of my journey as a creator, and he’s always worked a full-time job. And then he inevitably went even to more of a freelance role so that I could use him when I needed him. So he will work as a contractor and I’m like, "Mike, I need your help. Quit your job. Come and help me." And so throughout my entire journey, he’s been there to do that.
However, working with your significant other can be real difficult. And there are times when we’re like, "Let’s not do this. Go back to your job, make something happen, go back contracting." And then when we’re like, "Oh, we’re cool," come back again. So what’s important for us is actually to establish how we communicate with each other and boundaries. Like when we’re working together, we actually don’t work in the same environment. So he’ll work in an office and I’ll work somewhere else because if we work in the same room at the same time, it’s not pretty.
We’re going to send a microphone over to Mike in the audience to get his take! It’s not pretty.
Yeah, because I think when you’re in like boss mode, like you can be quite direct. Like I’m very like, "This doesn’t look good. I don’t like this. Mm-mm. Can we change this? How do we do this better? This is wrong," right? And I think there are—when it’s with your partner, they’re going to take that personally over say someone else who is just working with you. And I haven’t developed my managerial skills to be great when it comes to, you know, my interpersonal skills just yet. So and I think when you’re working with a loved one as well, you feel like you want to be more direct—"They should know. You should know this! Come on!" But he doesn’t always know and he can’t read my mind and he’s a man. So there’s differences there. So that’s when it gets a bit difficult when we’re together.
And how do you balance like leaving work at work and not bringing that home with you? Because one thing I came to learn was that the Steven Bartlett that succeeds in a professional environment that is direct, that is very clear and uncompromising, is not the same Steven Bartlett that is required to compromise and, "Oh you want to go for a walk in the park for no reason?" How do you be two different people in order to achieve two completely different objectives?
And how do you do that also when you live and work in the house? The same house? Because that’s something that we deal with. I think it’s again about setting these boundaries like physically. So Michael won’t really work in the house even if he’s working on my projects. And I try to work from an office as well as much as possible. And then it’s the case of like switching off. It’s hard, man. It’s really hard. I think as a creator, as a social media creator, you’re always on. I haven’t mastered that yet.
But we have kids. So the good thing about kids is that they force us to give them love and give them attention. So we have to switch off and sort the kids out and give them a bath and give them dinner. So we’ll always kind of switch brains because of that.
That’s a really good point. I never actually thought about the fact that kids would actually force some kind of balance into your life.
They do. Yes.
Amazing. And you guys have been together a long time.
A long time, yeah. We’ve been together for 14, 14 years. And married for like nine years, I think. Yeah, nine years. Yeah.
I always think because—because of my own experiences of being pretty useless at relationships—entrepreneurs and especially creators, it’s a different bag because as you say you’re always on. They’re quite difficult to date.
Yes. Yeah.
And I think as well—and I’m probably going to get in shit loads of trouble for saying this but I don't really care, I’m going to die anyway—I think entrepreneurs from other cultures who have come up from another background and another mother can be even more tricky to date. You spoke to your mother, you used the word "passionate." Can you relate?
Yeah, so obviously Michael’s like an Englishman from—from Manchester, right? And like we are very culturally very different. And I think—but it’s so interesting. I think if I wasn’t with Michael, I’d be very single and very lonely! Like I’ve accepted that. I don’t know if anybody else would like actually handle me, if that makes any sense. I think it takes a certain kind of person to be with an entrepreneurial person, let alone an entrepreneurial Nigerian woman. Like that’s like so many different layers there. And yeah, he’s like a magician to be able to handle that. And we’re like polar opposite people. I’m very like emotional and like "Let’s do this now!" and he’s very logical, steady, stable. And I think that actually is the balance that I’ve needed. Like and I think we’re meant to be together to like I don’t know—yin and yang.
Yin and yang. That’s great. You said he followed you here today but I heard you actually had a cyberstalker.
Oh! Yeah. Yes. I found out it was actually his account stalking me! Yeah, no I did. I had a stalker for like three years.
Oh wow.
And it was someone who would like just message me on all my platforms constantly, send emails, message family members. Really weird. And nowadays I can’t even remember what their—what their issue was. I don’t think they even had one. They were just obsessed with me and obsessed with like my relationship to an extent because I used to put vlogs out and I used to have like content with me and my husband and I stopped. Like actually, it sounds so bad, but I think it was enough to tell me, "I’m not going to put myself out there in that way."
Why?
I think it takes an emotional toll having a stalker. Because you’re worried like when you log in, "Am I going to see their messages? What are they going to do today? What are they going to say today? Are they going to dox me?" So they found out my parents' name and address and say, "Your mom’s this name and she lives here." So like those things. And obviously, it was like psychological warfare. Warfare? Well, it was—yeah, it was more psychological. But like when I was thinking about it, I kept thinking it’s because I put myself out there too much. This is why they’re targeting me. And I think inevitably it made me want to retreat in certain aspects.
Do you still think that was the case? Now?
I think that was one of my triggers. But I think inevitably I was like putting yourself out there too much from a personal perspective wasn't something I wanted to do. Like I used to show—like I showed our wedding, I showed me giving birth, I’ve shown—I put a lot out there, okay?
Link in the bio?
Link in the bio, my birth story! And like the platforms love it when you put yourself out there a lot. But inevitably it does take a toll on you as a person. And I just said, "We’re going to stop this. I don’t want to be that person. I actually care more about my real life than putting a version of my real life online."
§02Transcript — part 2
I tend to think when you’re reaching that many people, just probabilistically, just by numbers, you’re going to reach at least ten nutters.
Yeah, okay.
Just, do you know what I mean? Regardless. It just happens. Yeah. And you’re blocking this person I’m guessing every time they pop up and then they’re making a new account.
Oh, they’re making hundreds of accounts. They’re messaging other people. So what would happen is that when I would message someone online, they would like be in the—in the thread or they’d be watching everything I was doing. So I’d have to tell people, "Oh, I’m really sorry, I’ve got a stalker. Like if you got that message, it’s from—it’s from a stalker." They’d like message brands sometimes. It was just really weird behavior.
And at some point it stopped? It vanished or—?
It reduced, it reduced I’d say. And then it inevitably like disappeared. I kind of forgot about it to be honest after a while. But I learned how to like listen to their speech pattern. So even if they would create new profiles, I always knew it was them based on the things that they would say and how they would say it. So they’d try to hide that it was them but it’s like, "It’s clearly you." And there’s even like online forums where people like moan about online creators and she would like—she or he would go into the forums and be like talking about me. So I would stalk my stalker! Right, so I knew it was them. And then other people in the forum would be like, "You’re Patricia’s stalker." Like they would know it was the stalker. So yeah, anyway.
Wow, what a ride. That made you feel unsafe? At any point? There was nothing where it was like, "We know your home address, we’re going to—I’m going to come there"?
There was some of that.
Oh really?
So there was some of—so I did a meet and greet an event and then they messaged me like, "Haha, I was at your meet and greet. You didn’t even know who I was, you didn’t see me, you look so terrible in person. Next time I’m going to do something," right? So I remember feeling so anxious and I would—I vlogged it and I remember like looking through the footage and I was like, "Who could it be? Who could it be?" I was like racking my brain. I was like, "Which one is it? Which one is it?" And I think it made me a bit paranoid like for a season. But I was never scared because I’m from South London! I’m not scared! Come to my house and we’ll—like we’ll see. Like I even prefer that! Like come to my house and—and let’s see.
So what’s—what’s next for you then in your—in your life? As you look forward, you know, I’m not talking about goals. I’m just saying the sort of macro, the overall feeling you want from your life and where you want to be.
I think it’s being open to more challenges that are different to what I’m used to. I have been making content and creating by myself, for myself, for brands for so long—for like 10 years. And I—I although I think I’m a brave person, I feel like I’ve got very comfortable. So I want to set myself out on challenges that are completely outside of my comfort zone. Maybe do something that, you know, is unexpected for me—unexpected for me as a creator. "Influencers don’t do this" or "influencers of your size don’t do this" or this kind of thing. And I really want to work on like creating more products and really building out a brand and not necessarily being the face of everything.
Why? Why not the face of everything?
So I actually realized, though I’m in the public eye to an extent, like I don’t really like being famous. I don’t really want to be a personality. I don’t want things to be about me. And I don’t know why I put myself out there if I didn’t want that. But I think fundamentally, I’m happy to slink into the background as a person.
Why don’t you want that?
Nah. I think there are other people who want it more. Like, I don’t enjoy being famous as in—not that I don’t enjoy, but I think there are people who like really want to be famous, right? And there are people who just want to do what they do and do it well and—and like not—just have their own normal friends, do their—their own normal things and get on with life. Like I get on the train every day. And I go on the underground and some people are like, "You get on the underground?" I’m like, "Yes, it’s quicker!" But I don’t want to ever be in a place where I can't get on the underground.
People are stopping you saying, "Hi, Patricia. Can I have a picture?" And you’re like, "No, COVID!"
No I always say—no I was like, "Hey girl!" I’m always friendly.
I guess you can use that fame for things that you do care about there, right?
I like that. You’re right.
You know what I mean? It’s like a double—double-edged sword. It costs something but it gives—creates an opportunity for something in a way.
Oh, yeah. Wow. You just—yeah, you just told me off there! In a good way! No, I love that. And I love what you just said, that you can use the fame for value.
That’s kind of what—like I can compare the battle I’m having at the moment because obviously just done Dragons' Den.
Yeah, exactly.
And that’s going to be all over the TV and stuff and people are going to start coming up to me and pitching me their business ideas in the street, which I don't want to fucking hear!
Well, I have an idea for you! No, I’m joking!
No but you know what I mean? Like you’re going to get—because I—I went out with Peter Jones for like dinner.
Yeah.
And—and he goes, "I’m just going to pop to the toilet."
Yeah.
And I—it takes three steps and a guy stops him, "Hi Peter. I knew you were here," pitches him the idea, the percentage, asks the—and I’m just looking at Peter thinking, "That’s going to be my fucking life." You know what I mean? And I think, so what’s the upside? Why am I doing this? Why have I created a platform? Why have I put myself out there? And I think all the other upsides are that it’s going to allow me to build things that are more in line with things I care about. It gives you a platform and an audience.
Yes. No, I love it. You’re right. You’re right. And I—and I’m battling with the fact that there’s clearly a reason why I’m—I’m here or why I’ve got this audience and why I—people connect with me, right? And actually maybe it’s a good thing that I have no huge desires to be famous. So I’m going to have to work out how to deal with that attention in a way better and not just think about slinking into the background.
That’s how you feel? Slinking into the background?
I want to—I want to be low-key. Like I want to make my videos and—it sounds crazy—and no one really watch them! I—I like the idea of when things are small. Though because I’ve been very viral. Like so I was really viral, I was getting like 8 million views a video, 13 million views a video, and at the time I was like, "Oh, this is quite—this is a lot for me to like handle because people are messaging me all the time like 'Patricia!'" and I’d be like, "Hey guys, hey!" So it’s not that I want to slink into the background. I think I just need to be more comfortable with recognizing that, you know, I’m here, I’m doing it, but still have that normality. That’s really important for me.
And what have you learned over the—in terms of, as it relates to if you were—because I’m thinking now about you’ve got an entrepreneur over there in the corner, Sophia, and she’s—she’s starting a meal prep business. She’s also working in the city in finance.
Okay!
So it’s—it’s very coincidental that she—she happens to be here today. If you were speaking to someone like Sophia and you—you were just giving her a bit of advice on how to become successful in what you do as you have been, what are those underlying principles where you say, "That really is the thing. There’s no quick route but that thing there is the thing"?
So I think the first thing is leaning into your like authentic tone. Like, what is the thing that makes you or your brand yours? And not running away from that and not trying to be something else. It’s like learning to not be scared of yourself. "This is what we are, this is who I am, this is it," right? And then consistently putting that out all the time so that people connect with that. They either connect or they don’t, but you only want those who are going to connect with that true version of yourself or your brand.
And then it’s, of course, you know, you’re going to jump on trends or—or things that are viral so you can get traction. That’s what I did. I would jump onto viral trends but do it in my own tone of voice. And, you know, it’s the consistency. Continue.
I’ve never done this before but I want to ask Mike a question if I can.
You can ask Michael a question! He’s famous!
Mike, I saw you on her Instagram actually with the—the baby Father’s Day. I wanted to ask you from your perspective, why do you think Patricia has been so successful in what she’s done?
Well, I reckon for a number of reasons. Partly I think it’s her personality, which she doesn't acknowledge. So Patricia is—Patricia doesn't acknowledge a lot of good things about herself. She’s definitely 100% her biggest critic. She brings a lot of energy and passion and enthusiasm and stuff like that. So when you watch her, you feel good or you feel happy or you feel interested or inspired. Which is something that she doesn't really acknowledge, but I think that’s a part of it.
I do think there’s certain fundamental like numerical things like consistency and sticking with it over time and you know all those types of factors that you could look at from a numbers perspective that help. So definitely doing that and staying with it and doing you know your three uploads a week and your regular posts and all those sort of things that help. But a lot of people do that and don't have the same level of success, right? Fact. So that’s why you have to look at, "Well what’s the differentiating factor?" So I think there’s that, I think there’s an element of her kind of openness and honesty and her also because I think partly because she’s done it a long time, she’s very natural and authentic. So you don't feel like you’re watching someone who’s performing. You feel like you’re watching someone who is genuinely you know giving who they are to you.
And that’s rare, right? So I asked Mike there what you—he thought the causal factors behind your success were. He pointed at personality, you being vulnerable and you being authentic. And yeah, I mean, that’s—that’s kind of rare online with the world we live in with perfection filters and don’t share the bad shit.
Yeah, and I think I’m lucky in that I came up in an age of making content where it was so authentic. There was no business behind it and it was about connection. So I had that training. That was my training ground for being a creator—just just do what you do. Don’t don’t think about it, just do what you like. So I—I feel lucky that I’ve got that as like my basis of creating and being an influencer.
Well I—I can certainly feel that and I think it comes through in everything you do, especially the stuff you’re doing on "The Break." I’ve never watched videos about finance that seemed to be so entertaining and real and weren’t trying to be like snotty financial like long-word business bullshit advice. So it made it super like inclusive and—and real. And obviously, that’s what’s absent in that space—is inclusion. That’s why like we both probably bought bags we shouldn’t have bought and Dom Perignon that I definitely should have bought!
Definitely! Definitely. So thank you so much, Patricia, for your time today. You’re such an inspiration to so many and much—you know, much of the reason for that in my view is because you’re such a real person and—and you’re willing to share that realness with everybody. What you’ve done is remarkable and I’m sure this is just the beginning for you. You look about 23 as well! I was like—she literally looks 23, but that’s part of the upside of the ethnic background. Thank you so much for your time. It’s such an honor.
No, thank you for having me. It was great to come on and have a chat. Thank you.
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