Moment 150: The REAL (& Usually Unseen) Reason You’re Struggling With Love & Relationships!: Logan Ury

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For anyone listening who's feeling really stuck, going deep on attachment theory is one of the number one things that you can do to really understand yourself, understand your past patterns, understand who you've been attracted to, and why it isn't working.

There’s a lot of great relationship science out there, but this might be the number one thing that I want people to take away. Let me describe what happens when you’re avoidant attached.

First, there’s a trigger. The trigger might be that you go out with somebody on Saturday night, you have a great night, they sleep over, and Sunday morning you wake up and you’re just ready to do your thing, but they’re still there. You feel triggered by the fact that they’re still at your house.

Then you do something called deactivating strategies. These are thoughts or feelings that push them away. It might be like, "Oh my God, it’s 10:00 and she hasn’t brushed her teeth yet. When is she going to leave? Is she going to be here forever?"

You start thinking about flaws in that person—this is wrong with her, that is wrong with her. There are all these things that are subtly pushing her away from you. Then you do a protest behavior, which is sort of snapping or just saying something like, "Okay, I called your Uber."

I feel like many of us have had that situation where you think things are going well with somebody and then all of a sudden they’re like, "The Uber’s here," and you’re like, "Oh, so you’re kicking me out?" It’s so interesting because the other person has no idea what’s going on for you.

They feel like you just had a great date and they’re like, "Great, let's go out to the diner for breakfast," and instead that person is like, "I will never have my life back, you are taking over my world."

So, what an avoidant attached person can do—let me give a few tips for them. One of them is being really clear about what you want. It's absolutely fine if you want the person to leave, but saying something like, "Hey, I had such a great date with you, I have a big week of work ahead of me and so I want to get started, but I will call you again soon." Just asking for what you need.

Another thing is overriding the flaws that are becoming so obvious to you. There’s a really interesting thing called the negativity bias. Even though we’re living in this age of ChatGPT and all of modern technology, our brains are running on ancient software.

Our brains have the negativity bias, which means we’re much more likely to ruminate on what’s wrong with someone. The reason for this is that if you had five ex-girlfriends and one of them wanted to kill you, it was really important to know which one that was. Your brain would remember that.

To overcome the negativity bias and this feeling where avoidant attached people focus on flaws, you can actually work on focusing on the positives. Even just saying to yourself five things that you like about somebody. You could think in your head, "Last night was so fun, she looks so cute wearing my t-shirt, I’m really excited to hear her talk more about her work," whatever that is.

Actively overriding this feeling of pushing people away is key. That’s one of the really hard parts about being avoidant—you feel like those criticisms that you have in your head are so valid, like "I need to pay attention to this." But what you don't understand is that it's actually a subconscious way for you to not get close to someone.

I’m coaching someone right now where she told me, "Oh, I went on a date with a guy, everything was great, but he wore a white t-shirt under his shirt which reminded me of my uncle, so I can’t be with him." I was like, "Do you understand how ridiculous that sounds?" Obviously, that’s not a reason to not be with someone; that’s an excuse for you to not get close to someone.

As we talked about it more, it became obvious that she’s really afraid of being hurt. She’s been abandoned by many people, she was in a bad marriage, and for her, "If I don't get close to you, then you can't hurt me." That’s part of the avoidant attachment. "If I never rely on you, then you can never let me down." So, part of it is actually getting more comfortable relying on somebody else.

You kind of alluded to it there, but the obvious question here is where does it come from? I think from your answer with your client with the white t-shirt, it’s quite clear. But in my case, I think I know where it comes from. Generally, where does this avoidant attachment style come from?

If you think about the history of attachment theory and the fact that it started doing research with children and their primary caregiver, there is this idea that it goes back to your childhood. But I feel like it’s unfair to really say all of us have these attachment styles because of our parents, or specifically because of our mothers—like, "Hey mom, if I’m single it’s your fault."

That’s actually not true. I think that’s part of it, but there are other societal things that can lead to it, and there's some evidence of different biological reasons why each of us would do this. The main message I want to give is: do not blame everything on your mother. I think attachment styles is a really good framework, but it's not just an excuse to say, "Oh well, my parents are the reason why I can't find love."

And can you change it?

The research shows that when people work on it, about 25% of people are able to change their attachment style. What that might look like is somebody understanding, "This is my trigger, and when a trigger happens, I'm going to do something else."

For the avoidant person, that means asking for what you need, being really clear, not assuming that somebody is going to read your mind, and looking for the positives. You can work on self-regulation.

For example, when an avoidant or anxious person is triggered, they go into this thing called the "danger zone," which is basically, "I need to get away from you as soon as possible," or "I need to reconnect with you as soon as possible." If you don't want to get into the danger zone and you want to stay in the comfort zone, then you can learn how to self-regulate.

The other thing, which I personally feel like is easier and was my strategy, is finding a secure partner. That’s a great way to get out of the anxious-avoidant loop.

With me, I was this anxiously attached dater chasing after this "Burning Man guy," having all these bad habits. Then when I started dating my husband, I distinctly remember this moment where I was walking down the street of San Francisco and I was flooded. I was so angry. I would get so upset. I was typing away at my phone, I couldn't see anything else, I truly was in this flooded cortisol-rush moment.

I was telling him all the things he had done wrong, and I knew the pattern, which was that he would fight with me, we’d get into this fight, it would blow up, and then eventually we’d make up. But he didn't do that pattern. He wrote back and said, "It sounds like you're upset. We should talk about this in person."

It was this crazy moment where I was like, "Wait, we're not going to do the thing that I always do with everyone? We’re going to do this different thing?" It just dissipated all of the anger because he was acknowledging that I was upset, but he was suggesting a healthier plan. I don’t think it’s unrelated to the fact that his mom is a therapist.

Dating this secure person made me so much more secure. I broke out of the anxious-avoidant loop, I got over the silly Burning Man guy, and I understood what a secure relationship was like. I feel so lucky to be in this secure marriage. Sometimes when I think about my career success, I’m like, "I couldn’t have done it without my husband," not because he’s involved with my career, but I really feel like 25% to 50% of my brain was in these spirals, worrying about people, being anxiously attached, ruminating on them.

Being in a secure relationship actually gives you a lot of peace, and you can use that brain power for something else.

But only 50% of people, you said, are the secure ones that everybody wants?

Yeah, so I think it’s a combination of: you can become more secure yourself, or you can find a secure partner. What’s hard is that we often confuse secure people for boring.

That’s what I was going to say. I wasn't sure whether to say it, but "secure" sounds a bit like wallpaper.

Yes! And that’s what people don't understand. People think... like, I had a client who said to me, "I went on a date with this guy, we went out a few times, I told him I was going to Seattle, and then he sent me all these recommendations for Seattle, so I’m never going to see him again."

I was like, "What are you talking about?" And she said, "That’s so desperate." I replied, "This is just a nice guy who’s trying to tell you about a cool bookstore in Seattle. Why can't you see that as somebody that’s interested in you and putting in effort?"

But to her, in the anxious-avoidant loop, what she wanted was someone who was unavailable. That’s what’s so hard. I feel like there are all these lovely, securely attached people out there who are probably like, "Oh, I’m a dud, nobody wants me." It’s like, "Baby, somebody wants you, they just haven't figured it out yet."

Part of the work I do is training people to look for secure partners. Look for things like: are they consistent? Do they not play games? Are they clear about their interest in you? We actually have to understand that securely attached partners are the heroes of the relationship world. They’re great to be in relationships with, they have healthier relationships, and you have to train yourself to go for that and break out of this anxious-avoidant loop.

There will be a bunch of people out there who class themselves as the first attachment style—anxiously attached—that need some help and advice. My girlfriend, I think she’s a little bit anxiously attached. What do anxiously attached people need to know to increase their probability of finding love?

You illustrated this really well in your story. You talked about how your girlfriend will want attention from you, you don't give it to her, she tries, and then she shuts down. That’s exactly what we see with anxious attached people.

Let me give you the equivalent of what I gave you for the avoidant attached. An anxious attached person will have a trigger. For example, the trigger would be, "I asked somebody if we’re hanging out tomorrow and they didn't get back to me."

After the trigger happens, they go into activating strategies. These are thoughts or feelings where you start spiraling. You’re thinking, "They’re not interested in me, they met somebody else, there’s something else going on, they don't like me anymore." You’re getting into that danger zone of coming up with all these reasons why that person is going to abandon you, which is your biggest fear.

Then, you do protest behavior. The protest behavior—and trust me, I’ve been there—is sending 10 texts in a row, maybe it’s sending 20 texts in a row, leaving an angry voicemail, really acting out.

Afterward, you decide to punish the person and you shut down. You send all those texts, you send threats, and then you turn off your phone. You’re in this tough place where you’ve tried to reconnect with somebody and then you’ve gotten so upset that they’re "abandoning" you that you actually pull back.

That sort of describes what might be happening with your girlfriend sometimes where she doesn't get what she wants, it’s very frustrating for her, and then she shuts down.

The strategies for the anxious attached: distracting yourself, going for a walk, doing something else where you’re not on your phone, where you’re basically not in a mode where you’re waiting for somebody to text back. I feel like those are the longest minutes of my life—waiting for that text back from that person.

The second thing is to text somebody else, like "I wish I could say this to him." And the third thing is "disconfirming evidence." It’s almost like inside your head is a judge and a jury, and you’re presenting to the judge all the reasons why it could not be true that they are abandoning you.

You’re presenting all the reasons why that person might not be texting me back. You’re doing everything that you can to not get into that protest behavior moment, because once you’re flooded, once you’re in that protest behavior moment, it’s really hard to recover. Both people are working on having different reactions to triggers.

If you look at all of the mindfulness stuff, the work of Viktor Frankl and "Man's Search for Meaning," so much of it is this idea of creating more space between an action and a reaction. If you can extend that space and choose a different reaction, that’s where the growth comes from, and that’s how we can overcome these negative behavioral trends.

Something you said there made me think about advice I once gave to a friend—I'm not sure if it was good or bad advice. She was being ghosted. She came to me telling me she'd been ghosted, and she showed me her phone.

I looked at her phone conversation with this person and she was basically peppering him. She was dragging the conversation. You know what I mean? Where she’s asking the questions and he’s giving closed responses, then she’s asking another question and he’s giving a closed response. It was that cycle over and over again. Then the next day, she texted him and he didn't reply.

I said to her—she’s a good friend of mine—"I think it’s important to realize that people do what they want to do." The reason I said that to her is because she had started justifying in her own mind what I saw as a clear rejection as something else.

I said, "I think it’s important to let you know, just remember: people do what they want to do. He would have woken up this morning, I'm sure he brushed his teeth because he wanted to do that. He then would have eaten breakfast because I'm sure he wanted to do that. So if he’s not texting you back over and over again, and you feel like you're constantly dragging the conversation, I think it’s important to know that he’s doing what he wants to do." It might be a bit of harsh advice, but I don't know.

I think that’s great advice, and I’m smiling and I have sympathy for your friend because I feel like I’ve really been there. Obviously, I don't know anything about her, but let’s say she’s wired like me. When I want something, I go after it. It works in every other area of my life. I set goals, I go after them, I achieve them, and people respect the hustle.

It doesn't work in dating. You can't hustle your way into a relationship. I think that's why so many of the women I work with are really smart and ambitious and they’re like, "I’ve run a marathon, I have amazing personal finances, I’ve achieved all these goals—why isn't dating working out for me?"

It feels like this one aspect of your life where you can't muscle your way through it. You actually have to learn this pretty nuanced dance. For her, she wasn't getting the cues, and she wasn't getting the clues.

I just finished a bunch of research at Hinge on this idea that we’re calling DBL: Digital Body Language. We talk about body language in normal conversation—what are the non-verbal things that you’re communicating? Are you crossing your arms? You’re not interested in me. Are you opening up? Are you interested in having this conversation? Even the way we stand matters.

Well, most of early dating is now happening over text. What is your digital body language saying? Through this research, I have this whole list of good DBL and bad DBL, or signs that somebody’s interested in you and signs that they’re not.

This guy is doing all of the signs that he's not. He’s answering the questions with one-word answers, he’s not asking a follow-up question, he’s not matching her style. For her, I think it should be a sign that he’s not interested.

But she wants him to be interested, so she’s going to keep trying. In her head—I have been there—it's like, "Oh, I just haven't found the perfect question yet for him to open up to." It's like, no, he’s not interested in you.

I can hear my college roommate saying to me, "Logan, don't make somebody a priority when they’re making you an option." That’s what’s happening with her. She’s prioritizing him but he’s not prioritizing her. I think your advice is exactly right. People do what they want to do, and he’s choosing not to invest in that relationship.

At the end of the day, that was not your guy. He had already indicated in multiple ways that he wasn't interested. You were still grasping onto the crumbs, but you don't want the crumbs. You deserve the whole cookie. It’s not like you ruined things with your person; he wasn't your person.

Vulnerability is the bridge—I guess you could say vulnerability creates a bridge to connection. With that in mind, is it conceivable then that people that have the lowest self-esteem feel the need to create the perception of perfection the most and therefore struggle?

I'm thinking about one of my friends that has low self-esteem. Ahead of a date, this person has like a three-day routine where they go and get their hair, their nails, everything done—fake tan, probably get their toenails done, wax this, wax that, whatever. It’s this huge thing. They have a really low self-esteem, they go on the date, and I can only just imagine as you were speaking that they go on the date and try and hit this person with perfection.

Like everything about me is perfect. I know underneath that they’re struggling with their self-esteem and their self-image, but it made me think that there might be a correlation between low self-esteem and our willingness to be vulnerable, which will also mean our ability to form connection.

I think it’s an interesting theory. I haven't studied it, but I bet it happens both ways. I think somebody with low self-esteem could feel like, "I’m going to be rejected anyway, so I’m not even going to date." Those might be the "hesitators" that I talked about.

They also might be the people that you talked about where they’re like, "I have so many flaws, I can't let you in, because if you know the real me you’ll reject me, so I have to keep you at arm’s length."

However, I also think there’s this other person who actually has pretty high self-confidence, but they go through the world bragging, or they say, "The way that I got investors in my company is by showing what a big man on campus I am, and how I’m going to scale my company." What society has prized in them is how "together" they are.

They've never been in a situation before where their vulnerability has been appreciated. It’s actually pretty hard for that person. I think just to generalize, this happens with a lot of men, where society wants people to be strong and wants people to feel like they have all their shit together.

To suddenly say, "Hey, be vulnerable on the date," that doesn't feel safe to them. They don't have that. So I don't think it’s necessarily just low self-esteem; I also think they feel like it’s really risky to show that they’re not perfect.

That’s the journey I’ve been on. When I was younger and most insecure, I was never vulnerable. That felt like a huge risk that I was not willing to take. As I got more secure with myself, I’ve been able to be much more vulnerable, and that means having conversations where I admit my bullshit.

That’s also why I think this podcast has worked for me, because I say on stage a lot, I ran the experiment of being honest. I tried being vulnerable about my shit, about my imperfections, about my doubt, about my mental health—all of these things.

That experiment resulted in connection that I was not expecting. I thought vulnerability was a repellent; turns out it’s a magnet. That was like a revelation in my life, so I’ve doubled down on that concept of just like: share it, and instead of repelling people, it actually ends up drawing them closer, which I think is great.

I absolutely love what you said, and I hope people rewind and listen to that part again because that’s honestly a lot of what I’m trying to get across. A few months ago, I sent out this email to my newsletter and I said, "Do you worry you're undatable? Is there something about you where you feel like people will reject you because of that? What is that?"

Hundreds of people wrote in and they said, "I’m undatable because I have a chronic illness that makes me have chronic fatigue. I’m undatable because I don't have a close relationship with my parents. I’m undatable because I’ve slept with too many people. I’m undatable because I haven't slept with enough people."

Every side of every coin, people felt like they were undatable. Then I turned that around and in the next email I sent out, I shared all these things. I said, "This is what you're all feeling. You all feel like you're undatable because of these things. None of these things make you undatable; they actually are your vulnerability that if you share, somebody will feel connected to you."

But you’re not putting it out there and you’re not sharing and you’re not connecting. I think people who have been on the journey you’re on have proven that. When you are vulnerable, people feel connected to you because they say, "Steven’s struggling with something that I’m struggling with, I want to be a part of what he’s doing because I can learn from him."

When you come across as perfect, people don't feel connected to you because they can't relate. My friends that don't share their vulnerabilities, I feel less close to them because I’m like, "Well, you must have it all figured out and you must think I’m a mess."

But when they text me with what they’re struggling with and I text them with what I’m struggling with, that’s the depth of our friendship. I judge my friendships based on how real we are with each other. A lot of people have this idea that "if you really knew me, you would reject me," and the truth is, "if you really knew me, you would feel closer to me and we would have a deeper connection."