Louis Tomlinson: "The Room Was Cold That Day". When The Police Knocked... I Just Knew
Guests: Louis
Full transcript · Read the full conversation in order, with its original context.
§01Transcript — part 1
Not really ever spoke about it in depth like this. Nothing prepares you in life for those kind of situations, but I felt like I'd failed at the time. That's the truth. And it's still something that I'm unpacking still to be honest. Louis, will you spoke to your sister, Lottie? About this. Would you like to see it? Louis, time like this! I didn't spend my life as a young lad thinking I was going to be a singer. Like, I grew up in a working class of town.
Seven of us living in a three-bed house. Like, I'm almost used to work a lot of nights. She had to play dad as well. So I would have to get my sisters ready for school. So people in Dunkass didn't get those opportunities. And then the expected came along. I auditioned three times. The first time I've failed, the second time I've failed. I don't remember thinking f**k. This is utterly crushing. Just sobbing to me more. But she made me feel like I could do anything.
So instead of running away, it was like, I know I deserve it, I know I can. So how do I relearn confidence and go through a third time? You don't think about what happened in the preceding five or six years. It is crazy. Yeah, and the toughest thing to deal with is just the lack of normality. And part of growing up in a working class of town. Have this like guilt for the success and money that I've earned. And then personal worth within the band.
And really, really struggled with. But you coerate 15 platinum singles. I wanted to do more. But mostly for me, it didn't realise the value of the family time. And the more time I spent at the band, the more time I spent away from Poland. Like two of my sisters who are identical twins. I've never told them this. But I wasn't confident enough to tell them apart. That shows just how little I was at home. And then it ends. And what was really strange was being 24 years old.
Realising that the only way is down from it. Louis, there's so many things that happened in your life. How does a young man grieve? It's not really something I speak. It loads about, but I'm happy too. Because I cannot have that to find me. The floor is yours. Just give me 30 seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show. Week after week means the world to all of us. And this really is a dream that we absolutely never had.
And couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started. And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app. Here's a promise I'm going to make to you. I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to.
And we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show. Thank you. Louis, to understand you, what is the earliest context that I need? Something that played a massive role for me in my life was the fact that maybe for the first four or five years of my life, it was just me and my mom. My first proper memories are just kind of having like really kind of nice and warm and really like emotional conversations my mom. I think something that I'm kind of proud of is that I find it easy to be emotional.
And I kind of like talking about my feelings and I like getting into conversation with the people about that. And that was definitely something that she instilled in me from like a really young age. And something that still definitely really helps me today, especially navigating through the life like I have. Those kind of things have been I was talking about your emotions and your feelings, like vitally important, actually for the job that I do mentally.
So your father wasn't around, your biological father left soon after you were born? Yeah, it's not really something I speak loads about, but I'm happy to. Yeah, he wasn't involved in my life at all. I've met him like three times ever. So your mother played I guess several roles in your life? Yeah, I mean, one was always really good at that. I think she realized the fact that my dad wasn't going to be around that she had to play dad as well. And she had this kind of mischievous instinct in her mom and definitely kind of inspired some of that.
And part of that was her being her, but part of that was also trying to play that kind of dad role. You know, we kind of lock about and encroached to do kind of silly things that aren't going to hurt, you know. She was just like, I could get emotional. She was just the best woman I ever knew definitely. And also just I feel so vitally like lucky to be able to have her as my mentor. Because she just everything that I looked to in like friends and partners, et cetera, they're the kind of things that she embodied really.
And you had siblings? Yeah, lots of them. Yeah, lots of them. So when I grew up, I kind of like the bulk of my childhood. There was seven of us living in a three bed house. I've got a little bit better out, but one thing I really have struggled with is being on my own. And the more I've thought about that is I've got a bit older. It's because I just never had an opportunity to be when I was young. When you live in a house that, you know, it's three bedroom.
There's seven people living in there. You're literally all living on top of each other. And I loved that. Like it was like one of the best things that ever happened to me being an older brother. Like I just, it's just, it's like one of the definitions of my purpose, I would say. I just like to look after people, man. So like being an older brother is like a role. I feel like I was always supposed to do. And then I think even, you know, as we move through life, and a couple of things got more challenging, that role has become more prevalent, definitely.
All right. I was fortunate enough to speak to quite a few people that have known you over the years. I heard that was cool. That was cool. Yeah. And I was just listening to some of the recordings of those conversations like Nizam. Yeah. He's your childhood's best friends. Yeah. Kyle. Who's your photographer and videographer? Yeah. Love Kyle. Throughout the years in Lottie. Who's your youngest sister, six years younger? Mm-hmm. And it's interesting that one of the things they all came back to is that you really haven't changed.
I appreciate that. It's fundamental. Yeah, but that's what they said. Like I know. Your best friend from childhood said that's one of the most remarkable things that you're still made out of the same stuff and you've never turned around and thought you were anything more than you were back then when he knew you. And that's one thing I love about him, you know, as a friend. I've never said this to his face. But, you know, he's a real guy. Like, you know, he's never turned around to us and never said all.
I'm this big shock now or that ego. You know, that's never played and he's never been in barra stables. So he's a real guy. It's at least 50% conscious that or at least it started out as that idea because I think when you enter a crazy situation and one direction being like the pinnacle of that idea, there's people around you that all of a sudden feel that used to feel really, really similar and all of a sudden they feel really different. I'm not talking about day-stay conversation, but I'm talking about stuff that we can relate to, problems that I might have had that I might, you know, talk to them about.
And I think that's quite an alienating feeling. So instead of kind of just submitting, I've always, always resisted that. It's been really important to me. And those kind of things, you know, hearing that and hearing other people say that about me, that does make me really proud because it's definitely a lifestyle that can kind of sweep you up. Kind of sweep you away, but I think the older side of that and getting swept away, I don't really like the idea of what that might look like.
And I think you need people around you that are going to tell you if you're being a dick, like vitally important in this job, definitely. And those things, I think when you surrounded, you know, like a lot of successful people are, when you're surrounded only by success, it breeds a funny kind of narrative to be respected and people in donkester like that, that means a lot to me, definitely. So that's why another reason why, you know, I wouldn't drive through the streets of donkester in a fucking Ferrari or whatever.
And you went to school in donkester, hayfields? Yeah, hayfields where I did most of my time and then I failed mail levels and then went somewhere else for a year. You failed rail levels? I failed mail levels, yes. That was the first time I'd ever, ever got a real ballerkin off me mum, a real, real dressing down. Cause she was really, really fair. But there was something that she was kind of strict on with schoolwork. And I remember getting in the car and she said, you fucked your life up.
And she never swore, she never swore. And I remember, I got goosebumps thinking about it. And I remember thinking, maybe any of these do something with my life. At 15 years old, 15, 16 years old, you joined a drama group. And I was watching actually just before you arrived at 17 years old, you got the lead role in Greece. The foundations were set and you ultimately 18 years old decide to go in audition? Yeah, that was the third time I audition for the expirator.
So every year previous to that. So that would have made me 16 when I first auditioned. There's like three producer auditions and then you get to see Simon, you know, it's the main one. And the first year, I didn't get through any of them. The second year, I got through the first round. And then for the final time, I said to myself, well, I'm going to give this one more shot. Because that was another thing at that age. It's one thing saying you're resilient.
And I do think I am. But it's a lot easier to be resilient at that age as well, definitely. It's really surprising that someone would go to X-Factor once, be rejected essentially. Go again, not make it. And then go again, without having their self-esteem or their confidence, not to the point where they go, I'm not going to go through that again. Because every time you got to come home, you got to your friends and family, it didn't work out. Yeah. Well, the first year, I remember it being utterly crushing.
Like, I had not really had real rejection at that point. I hadn't really experienced that kind of thing. The second time I went was even more challenging. Because I went with, while described was like the hottest girl at school at the time, right? So she's also a singer we got talking like months ago, turns out she wants to audition for X-Factor as well. I'm like, well, let's go together thinking this could be like a smart little play. She goes before me.
And I think at this point, I feel like I was still in the queue. And she showed me that she got through to the next round. It was like a gold ticket. I then didn't get through. And then we got, because I was with her and I was traveling with her, we then got ushered into a room of, say, 200 people. And every single person in the room had a yes. I remember that being really, really challenging. You just surrounded by people that are dreaming. You know, they're really, really excited about what does the next stage look like?
That created a bit more fire, I think. It was like, okay, how do I get on the right side of this next year? How do I, how do I be in this group of people next year? Did your mum play role in you going for that third year? I can't remember specifically, but I would say if I would have had any level of doubt, 100%, the musical that you just referenced that I did at school, I didn't want to go to that audition. And she literally picked me up and drove me there.
And I was so thankful that she did. She was often very, very good at pushy parents. That's not good. She was never like that. She always had the right amount of force. Because sometimes you need that as a kid, especially actually even as adults. In the situation where you're second-guessing something, if someone goes, go on, you can do it. You're okay. So I think that definitely played a big role in that. Even if I suggested that I wasn't going to go to this audition.
Throughout the year, she would have been giving me a hundred different reasons to go. Now, not literally, but just from a confidence point of view, the way she was talking to me, how she always just put me on this amazing pedestal. She made me feel like I could do anything, definitely. And I think that helps in those kind of situations, going for it for a third time, because maybe I'm saying I can do it. So you do the audition, are you saying make you feel my love?
That was bootcamp. So that was the second part of the audition. My first audition was a song called, Hey, They're Delilah. It did nothing for me, like Son of Clay. Obviously, now I can say this because I've got a bit more experience. But it's young lad, you're not thinking about any of these things. I like that song. I'll sing that song. It was bad. It was really, really bad. And to the point where still makes me deeply uncomfortable listening to or watching that audition, the only thing I'd done like this is the school production of Greece.
And that was to about 250 people over two nights. And that felt like a fucking mountain of people. Cut to then your live TV audition, the M&M in Manchester, and there's 3,000 people in the audience. 3,000 people is a big gig for anyone to play, like full stop. Like if you do 3,000 tickets, you're doing really, really well. So it was, it's the definition of being thrown at the deep end. And I think that's part of what they want, but it's not going to yield the best results from everyone.
Some people it is, but I just remember feeling like a fucking deer in a headlight. It's like really, really shaky, like really, really, just felt really, really uncomfortable. I just wanted the ground to swallow me up. I'd never been in a situation where I was quite confident in young lad, so it wasn't very often I'd even been out in my comfort zone like that. And I just felt like a deer in a headlight, definitely. Am I right in thinking that they probably had the idea to construct a band much sooner than...
They must have done. They must have done. No, no in Simon. I will have had these conversations within the past, but I can't remember now. But no in Simon, yeah, I think, you know what he's like, right? He will have had that in his mind for at least three years before. He loves a boy band as well. He's got a track record. Yeah, they're making a lot of money. And so you come third on the X-Factor as a band when you put together, and then you signed at 19 years old to Simon Cowell's Psycho Music.
And it's crazy because when I think about you signing at 19 years old and I think about what happened in the preceding five or six years, I mean, it is crazy. I mean, it's only now outside of being in one direction that I actually have a little bit of a concept of what happened. And even, you know, the craziness of it because nobody has any context to it before it happens. So we definitely... We felt like things were going really, really well. But we also, there will have been part of us, especially in that first year, of just assuming this is what, you know, success looks like, you know, a successful artist does these things.
And the first moment that I remember distinctly, actually, that I realised that maybe this was bigger than, like, let's say, like, the average thing at the time, we got booked on a support gig with a, like, a Disney band called Big Time Rush. And before that tour show, our manager, our, like, senior manager, the kind of guy you only see, you know, like six gigs a year, and it just happens to be Vegas and L.A. in all the best places in the world, you know.
And he sat down, it was like, it's dressing down. And it was like, look, this is what you need to expect from a gig like this. Expect people to only know the singles. And even if they know the singles, you know, like, that's a real win. They're not going to know the words, the album tracks. It's going to be a very, very different show to what you expected. So we're all ready to go out fighting, because we've not really had that at that point. We'd help at most things that we'd done.
We felt really confident doing. So like, we, we, we were kind of going on in the back four. And then I remember when we walked out on stage, and I think we opened with something that wasn't a single, and people were just locked in, like, massively locked in. And it was really, really fucking loud in there. And I think that was a moment where I remember again, I had this kind of side to me when I was younger. I was so excited to tell Richard it was a manager at the time.
I was so excited to tell him post gig about how it actually went. Did you see it then? Because that was obviously not how it played out. And I remember feeling pretty smug about that. But I think one, it was once I kind of got to bed that evening. I was kind of thinking, I don't know, I wasn't overly deep think at that point, but I was still thinking occasionally on a deep level. And I'm looking at this music manager and I'm thinking, like, this guy is like Uber experience.
Like he's been in the situation countless times. So if he was to predict it wrong, like maybe he did, I'm like, well, maybe we, maybe something is happening. How do you take care of yourself amongst that? Because one of the things I've learned from doing this podcast is I've learned so much about the brain. I've learned so much about dopamine and sleep and circadian rhythms and all these things. And so when I fit that into the context of what your life was like at an age where these neuroscientists tell me that the male brain is still growing, it's still forming itself, you're putting this tremendous external pressure on it.
You're like shocking every now. I remember when I interviewed Liam, your former bandmate, him telling me that he would like, he remembers walking out on stage and I think it was Dubai. There's like 100,000 people there. And then thrown in, you probably remember the gig, like thrown into the taxi, taken back to the hotel room and locked in there. And it was like, I remember him saying to me, there was a stage, car, hotel, locked, stage, car, hotel locked.
Like, fuck. I would say the way that we both handled it, me and Liam, was quite different. I think that's often why I kind of, I had a good relationship with Zane from Ilyon because neither of us are kind of rule abiding. And not in a way that's like utterly disruptive. It's just we have our own ideas, you know? And that at least alleviated a little bit of the pressure, knowing that deep down, if I want it's just going to do something, I would genuinely just go and do it.
Whereas I think Liam and the other boys actually to a degree, there was, there was an element of a little bit of fear, I think, you know? And, and also Liam, you know, it worked so hard for the age of 14 to get there. Liam's journey was a lot different to mine. My, I just felt like a happy girl, you know, when the lottery, you know? Whereas Liam was very, very precise and deliberate and he'd got there for all his hard work. So I think we also came from a slightly different point of view.
Another benefit that I, I had during that time and I still have is I'm not a dweller. Like I'm, I'm an overthinker for sure, but I wouldn't say like I'm a dweller. So that wouldn't use this phrase to me very often, but like there would, there's definitely an element of ignorance is bliss during that whole time. I find it so fascinating that you talk about this like this idea of you being having the, the minerals or the personality where you would push back against the system a little bit because when I spoke to your former camera man and videographer, he said that you, you were the one in the group that stood up against the label.
So you'd be the one to turn around to the record label and say, we need to day off. And it's interesting again, because I was, one of the things I learned from doing this podcast is this idea of like learn helplessness and control and autonomy, basically. Tell DR is, it says that people who feel like they have control have much better physiological health outcomes. They have less stress, they're more insulated, better psychological states, less anxiety, less depression because they feel like they're in control of the situation.
So there's this crazy study that I was reading about when I was running my last book about these rats where they learn that they can't do anything about the situation and they basically give up and they become submissive and they stop trying. And I think about this in the context of humans as well. And you're from what your videographer told me, Cam, you were clearly not that. You were clearly someone that would push against Simon Cowell's record label as a young man.
Yeah, and that's something I've had a few conversations with my friends, similar things about this. And I'm not certain where that was like inspired by, because it's brave, right? To stare someone who at the time, at least in pop, was one of the most successful people in the music industry and say, no, you've got it wrong. Here's me, an 18-year-old, with no experience, telling you you've got it wrong. I think what gave me confidence in those ideas is even if it wasn't a collective voice, even if it was just my voice to live in the message, it was always with collective intention.
It would always be for the good of all of us. Making those decisions now on my own, they're not quite as easy. There's a lot of different things that play. And again, it comes from that big brother role again. I was the oldest in the band. It was kind of my role in the band, I think, to do that. And I realized that by far I was the most opinionated in the band, definitely. So I think I wanted to use that for good, not just trying to shit about someone on Twitter or something.
Another important distinction about one direction is, this is not disrespectful to Ed. I appreciate it. I was in a boy band, I know that, right? But if there would be one genre of music, then I would think might be the most naff. It's boy band, if you could call that a genre. So going into, at this point, going into one direction when I was 18, growing up in the north of England, it's like real, it's kind of like snobby music. There's like real music and then there's boy bands.
So having that kind of feeling going into it, that was why it was easy to kind of push a gain some of these old school ideas. Because they were the ideas that I didn't, the reasons I didn't like these bands is because they all looked the same and because they all felt very kind of PR pressed. It was always a really interesting project for me to try and to look at one direction and think, well, how could we make this a little cooler? I remember the real turning point in one direction was, when we put up the pre-order for our first single, what makes it beautiful.
I can't remember the number, how much we sold that week, but we broke some record right at the pre-order and we got told this, we'd not released any music at this point. I never think, and that's fascinating. Because they don't know what's going to sound like. But they're invested. That felt like power really on. And it also felt like that we could rewrite the rulebook because people were invested in us as much if not more than the music. I think that's fair to say.
Was there a part in the evolution in the journey of one direction where you had that moment where you go, there's elements of my life that I love that I no longer have access to because of this. Success. I would say that it's more gradual than that, really. You start to lose some of your own independence to a degree. And then I think, also the age I was, right? I was 18 when I first joined the band. And I always say this, that year of my life before I auditioned for the X Factor, at least up to those 18 years was the best year of my life.
You know, you've got independence at that point. I was driving. You could go out. Like it was just, it was, it was so fascinating. Socially, there's always something to do. So to leave that behind was quite gotten, actually. And that taught me a second to get used to it first. Now I always felt incredibly grateful and really excited every time I was doing something with one direction. But any kind of time for reflection, I was, I was really, really missing home.
Like me and Sam would, when we were younger, we had countless conversations of like, you know, should we just pack it in? Should we just call it a day? Why? Because you, you feel alienated. You've got, you, you, you are living this lifestyle that, and there's a million different reasons, right? But like the fame thing's really difficult. And mostly for me, it was about being alienated. And I can't, like any of my life experience was now not so relevant to some of my friends, you know?
And I think that also I have this, I think this is part of growing up in a working class, working class town, but have this like guilt for the success and money that, that, that event as well. And I think that also is kind of part of the same thing. I think, I think for, it's kind of like two different things. The fame thing I'll never, I'll never be okay with. Like if I, like, of course every artist says this, but if I could just do the music, you know, it would be amazing.
That would be amazing. I suppose I called on a, on a lower level, but I wouldn't get the same rush that I do. I think it's almost, yes, it's almost everything else that, that comes with that. It's interesting when someone says they felt isolated, which is something I've had a lot from people who've had great public success, where they've got a big fan base, because we think of like isolation as not being around people. But I guess isolation in the context you describe is more about connecting to people, relatability.
Yeah, but it's also like the metaphor would be, like what's that really famous crossing in Japan? If you took a drone shot and you pulled right out from that, and you would just become a little dot amongst the noise, sometimes that's kind of how it feels. Because also it's not the, it's not the real world, you know, even in the way that people perceive you, it's not the real world. The first moment that One Direction got, the first big payback it was a merchandise deal that we got, and we always did really good merch.
How old were you? 19. That was the first kind of moment where I felt really, really excited. And so I rang my mom straight away, you know, told her about it like I always would, and she was really excited for me. And obviously, you know, this, she's just proud. That's it. And then I remember the feeling of, who else do I tell now? Because like, do I call Nathan and tell him, well, he'll be into that, and he'll be really proud of me. But bear in mind, he's just seeing me on the next factor.
And this is another thing I read about people is, they think if you're successful, then everything is just, you know, successful, and that's how it goes. Like, you know, if I call, if I didn't call Nathan, but if I had called him, he probably would have been really nice. But in his head, he would have shrugged his shoulders like, obviously, you know, things are going really well for you. So I think there's definitely a lack of understanding there, rightly so.
There's also a girl, you know, especially that age. People like, life's really, really expensive at that age. People are up to their eyes and student loans. It was only about two years ago that I put all the plaques up on my wall at home and my awards, about the Brit Awards and stuff that I got in the past from the band. They still annoy me, even now, in my lounge. Because like, if I'm in a conversation with someone, I don't even really want, like, I don't, I want to just be me.
I don't want to be that guy that won those awards. Like, we can be and we can conversation like that. But truthfully, like, if someone, if Nizam came over to my house for like a chat and a coffee, I would hate that the conversation might end up then gravitating to me or my success. It's much more about just what those relationships and conversations look like in the real world, that's what I'm craving. Is that real normality? All I want is to just be on an even playing field with everyone in any kind of conversation.
I think that was the toughest thing to deal with. It's just the lack of normality in every sense of the word. How does things like alcohol play into this? Because you're living a crazy, crazy life where your dopamine and your brain is being tested in all different ways. I remember Liam saying to me, this is really when he started to have a problem with alcohol in the early years of the band. And he, I'm never forget it. He, I'm talking to me about the mini bar in the room.
One of the things I didn't realize is, okay, you've just been out on stage in front of 100,000 people. Then you're back in a hotel room with a mini bar. I feel the pull from alcohol. And I definitely drank quite a bit when I was in the band. But I think an important distinction post show would be, I'd smoke my weed. I'd go back to my tour bus and I'd go and smoke my weed and saying, we'd smoke with me too. I hope he doesn't mind me saying that, I'm sure he won't.
And that was great. And actually, like, you know, people do things for different reasons. And that was my voice. That was my choice. Now, the reason why that kind of suited my brain at that time was I've just had all this noise in my head. I've just had this crazy experience on stage. And that's the noise that you kind of need to quiet down sometimes. So what we would do is we'd get back on the tour bus. We'd play Call of Duty zombies. We'd smoke our weed.
§02Transcript — part 2
And like, that's all we'd think about. And that's all we do. And then we'd get into cliché stoner chats and deep conversation, probably UFOs, you know, all that kind of shit. And as, as, as daft as that might look and feel, it, again, it's our normality. It's creating the normality on tour. It's a version of what our friends were doing back home as well. But also it just, it was such a lovely way to kind of debrief from those moments. Away from the madness.
You've just got this kind of really subdued, nice environment. The juxtaposition actually felt quite nice. If you could go back to the day that you signed a contract with Psycho, what is the advice that 33 year old Louis would give 18, 19 year old Louis? Such a nice, really, really big question. I think I would just, I think I would say to be, be confident in the earlier years because the older I get, the more I realize most people in their earlier years of doing said thing or to a degree, faking it.
And I think for a long time, I was just thinking, well, you know, I didn't spend my life as a young lad thinking I was going to be a singer, so I'm playing catch-up and all those things. And this, and also there's another thing I'm more than comfortable enough to say. I'm not the best singer in the world. I'm okay with that, right? But like, there was definitely a time where those things were challenging as a young lad. And I think I would just cut myself a bit of slack as a young lad because it's been a lot of my defiance and decision-making that's got me to where I've got.
And that should give you confidence. So I think, I think as a young lad, I did really just felt like a deer in a headlight and I couldn't really have any kind of context what was going on. And I think when I'm talking about these things, I'm not talking about, no, we're not going to do this Disney performance because I don't think it looks good on the one direction. I'm talking about more like introspective personal worth within the band or those kind of things.
I really, really struggled with that as a young lad big time. So I would say I would give myself a bit more credit there. You really struggled with that? Hmm. I found it, I found it really tough. So like, as I said before, I was the kid who won the lottery. That's sang my first edition for the X Factor. I didn't feel like I did a good job. It was really surprised that I got the three S's. Now, that was maybe four months before the first edition's air.
So I've told everyone at this point, obviously, I'm in a band on the X Factor and I have told anyone that will listen like everyone. And actually me and neither me nor Nile got any TV time on our edition. So the irony is we get put in this band, but people have no idea we are. Like there's no context for the viewers to actually see this and actually really care. I felt like I was playing culture from that moment in. I remember there's like really like real nothing, typical X Factor thing.
We went filming for the judges' houses, which is the stage. You have the auditions, then bootcamp, judges' houses, live shows. And we went filming for judges' houses. And I was already questioned, I wasn't really singing at all. I've not had any individual thing to sing. It was like Harmony stuff. And I got stung by C.E.R. Chin, right? Random story, my foot blew up like an elephant. And we had to film all this, you know what X Factor's like, right?
We had to film all this jeopardy. This is like, how will the boys audition without Louis? It was awful. It was awful because there was no credibility to that statement. The boys could have auditioned straight away. At that point, I was doing a lower harmony. And I would be shocked if anyone could even hear me in the mix at that point. So that was really challenging where, you know, I'm already started to feel those things. And then you get something like that that's quite literal in there.
And they're trying to sell this jeopardy. And I remember thinking, oh, I just really, I wanted to do more. I just didn't know how to do that. Again, there's no context. I thought I was a good singer before I went to the X Factor. Then I get through the audition. They put me through. I'm like, okay, well, I must be all right. Then they don't show the TV audition. You're like, oh, maybe that's like a personality thing. I don't know. Maybe it's my voice.
There's a lot of, there's a lot of, especially as a young lad in this situation, there's a lot of unanswered questions. Did you ever ask those questions? Did I ever ask him why I was in that band? No, I would love to though. I would have loved to. But do you know why I wouldn't would never with him? Simon would probably, he would, he would, Simon was always very brilliant at making me feel like worthy in the band. But as he said before, like I was often a voice between the band and the label.
He was the label. Well, he put me on side and it's a smart move, isn't it? One thing he would always do, Stephen, is he would always say my name. Now, when you're a 19 year old lad and Simon Cowell says, do you know what the thing is about that idea, Louis? You are empowered. Now, what we like people using our names, now imagine that Simon Cowell in 19 years old. There is a spell that comes with that and there's a power that comes with that. And I think, I think for a long time, I kind of, I kind of fell for all those kind of ideas.
Now, I think Simon again is an interesting person. He is a brilliant businessman. Now, I learned a lot from him. I still deeply respect him. And I was, I was, I was in awe of him as a young lad. I just, I was, I loved to be around him. I loved to listen to him make decisions and all of that. And I thought he was, he was definitely brilliant at that time. He just, he built me up on a pedestal to the point where I thought that it would actually have a real world meaning, not just a thanks darling kind of vibe.
When did you realize that it didn't? When I joined Psycho on my own. So this is after the band. Yeah, sorry. So the band split up and now I didn't have my pick of record labels. It was never like that. But even if I had, I could have had 10 offers on the table. It's just to assume they're all the same money. I would have, I would have picked Simon always because like again, a little bit like the North of England loyalty is like a really important currency.
It really is in these kind of, you know, working class places. It's really, really vital. And I think like for me, it was, I always meant a lot to me. So I thought, well, if I'm, I'd heard some of the other boys were thinking about going to the labels, which they were right to. And I found out was they only won. It was going to stay with them. And I just motivated me more. So all the other boys went and joined different record labels. Some of them not even within labels that were in Sony, which Psycho was part of.
I never think, oh, wow, this is like, it's amazing for me actually that all the boys have done that. Because like, look how good this makes me look to Simon. I look really loyal. And like some of it was like deliberate. But mostly that's just how I am as a person. Like I would rather just keep the happy family kind of fact that that suits me. One of the, one of the things people don't talk about is the impact that your success has on everyone else back in Donkaster, including your mum.
I spoke to your sister, Lottie, when my team did. And I was listening to the recordings. And she said that it was especially hard for your mum because you leave home suddenly at 18 years old. And from everything you've described, you're more than just a kid. And you were, in some respects, a partner in raising the family. And best mates as well, mum. Yeah, definitely. Did you ever speak to you about the impact that had on her and all of that? That's the thing that I remember really clearly.
And she used to do the university analogy. And she used to say, I knew you were going to leave home at some point. But I had at least a time scale to that. I could like work towards my head okay, you know, with three months time, it's going to leave for uni and that's that. One direction never happened like that, you know. It all ran away with itself. So I think we felt like we all blinked and before we knew it, I was no longer living at home. So my mum had no time to even grieve the idea of like, and just for context, I mentioned this in, I made a, like a film and documentary.
And it kind of sums up me and my mum's relationship perfectly. The first person I told when I lost my virginity was my mum. Like I was, as if I was telling like, what am I like mate? I was just, and I wasn't telling her for any other reason over the show off. And be like, guess what happened to me? And that, that, we definitely had that kind of energy together, you know. We, we, I always, always saw her more as the best friend than anything else.
And especially because I was her first, she had me when she was 19. We spent the first few years together without a male role model. So it was a little deeper than your average, you know, son and mother situation. So I think it really hit me mum like a ton of breaks. If I had my time again, I would have been more present and aware of those kind of ideas. And I actually, here's a story actually. I don't, I've never told Daisy and Phoebe this. Daisy and Phoebe are two of my sisters who are identical twins.
And they're about four or five years younger than Lotys. They're about 21. Now, I could always tell them apart perfectly, but they look utterly identical to these two, especially when they were really young. And I can remember the more time I spent at the band, the more time I went away from home. I wasn't confident enough to use their name to them. You know, it'll be always like a babe or like, you know, something that I wouldn't have to mention the name.
Because I wasn't certain who was who. These are two sisters that I spent my life with and grew up with. But I think shows just how little I was at home. And if my mom would come out to see me, which was great, but other, you know, the kids at school and stuff like that. So there was a long time for those out of those five years were in the band. A long time spent not spending enough time with family. And that I would say that is that was 85% the job and the situation and one direction and stuff.
And then 15% me too. Like I could definitely have done more like that. But you know, when you, when you live in a life like we didn't one direction, free time is so competitive. And when you're young, you're not smart enough to realize the value of this family time. And you were on an absolute rocket ship up until you sort of, we must mean what sort of 23, 24 years old when the band origin announces that it's breaking the parts of your march that year. Zane says he wants to leave to have a normal 22 year olds life which shocked the world.
How do you reflect on Zane's decision now? Cause we, we pissed off at the time that he was breaking things up or I was few really. I was again, it's not something we've discussed enough yet, but me and Zane, I mean, but again, it comes back to like loyalty for me. And I just selfishly, I'd wish did had a conversation with me first. Cause me and Zane, I'd like to think that he would say this too. There was times where like we were like, let's put it like this is a good way of describing it.
On the last tour that Zane did, we always said we would never be this band, the type of band that would have all their own individual dressing rooms. Well, sometimes when you got a lot of guests and stuff, it can be challenging, but we always said we wouldn't be that band. And on the last tour, Zane did, Harry had his own dressing room, Liam did, Nile did, and me and Zane shared. So I think I kind of like testament of the relationship. So I felt a little bit hard done by.
I felt like, like, not like throw these boys under the boss, but let me know, but I just a little bit. I thought that we had a relationship where he could have had that conversation with me. In reflection, and he hasn't told me this, we'll see when I chat to him about it. But I think if he told me I would have tried, I would have tried to tell him to stay. And I think that's probably one of the reasons why he didn't, because he knew I was always very opinionated.
So how did you find out that evening? The night before we found out, everything was normal. We're in the hotel room. We were somewhere, I don't know where, somewhere in the world, maybe where we'd, isn't legal, but we were having a joint. And everything was normal, you know, and then I think he maybe left at like 11. He was cool, wasn't like in a bad mood or anything like that, you know, good night lad. And then next month I woke up, we had a shoot with like Coca-Cola for some sponsor thing.
And we found out that he wasn't coming. Now, I had this in me too, but like Zane was quite prolific for it. Like this wasn't out the ordinary. Like if Zane, I always rated him for it. If he didn't want to do something, like he literally wouldn't do it. Like you name the thing, it doesn't matter. He just, he just, if he doesn't, if it's not right for him, then he won't do it. So I think, well, that's probably why he left the band, you know, and that's what I admire about him.
Because if I was in his same situation, I would have probably put six clusters on it, just to hold that we can stay playing happy families, you know. I want to know if he regrets it. Not in the way that, like he, his own personal success has been incredibly successful and he's done really, really well like that. But he must miss it. Like he must do because I know Zane really well. And Zane has a bit of that kind of energy I do in such a way that sometimes this whole job can just be a little bit fussy.
It's just a bit fussy in general, you know, there's just a lot going on like that. Now, when you're in the band, you can share that wealth. It's like, you know, say you're sat in an interview, you're not enjoying. You just kind of shun up a little bit and let someone else pick up the pieces and they'll do that role. We could share the things that we didn't like to do as much. So there must definitely be times that he misses the comfort of that for sure.
But it's kind of like the elephant in the room to be honest. It's not, I've met up with him a couple of times recently, but it's not often something we'll just score. But there'll be a time for that for sure. I would like to have those conversations with them. But it crushed me, man. It absolutely crushed me. I was devastated because it felt like always this the beginning of the end of the band. But then also I'm like, this is like me best mate in the band at the time.
So it was I'd lost a friend and somewhat in the band. Funny, you know, I've heard you say that you weren't prepared for the success of one direction, but you also weren't prepared for the end of one direction. Oh, no. And you've described it as hitting you like a ton of bricks. Yeah, it was awful. It wasn't until after the event that I realized that I actually computed all these feelings, but it was like I was straight grieving for it. That was grieving the band.
I'm someone who unfortunately has a little bit of experiencing grief. And albeit it felt different, but it was a version of the same thing. It was something that I really wanted that couldn't have anymore. I think like anything like that, you know, like if you're like an amiglass half full kind of guy. So like I felt the wheel start to turn emotion like that, but you're looking the other way. You're like, no, it's fine. It's not going to play like that.
It's never going to come to that, whatever. And then we had a meeting one day and it did. What happens in that meeting? What's said? Is it Simon saying something? Is it the boys? Is it representatives? It was us boys, which was great. Always how it should be like that, obviously. I think it almost might as well have been representatives. What's really fascinating is those real serious moments. We wouldn't have a lot of them in one direction. We would just kind of go with the flow.
I'm really happy, you know, for each other and stuff like that. But I think those kind of moments where you have to be selfish. It was an atmosphere that never really felt in the band. Because normally like I said, arms and arms and arms. It's all this camaraderie. And all of a sudden you get someone thinking more independently and more for themselves, which by the way they have every right to do, of course. But it just felt the room felt cold that day.
I can remember that in particular. I'm trying to find the right metaphor for it. But it was something where these are all the same faces that I've seen every single day. But I've never quite felt an energy like that in the room. There was this emptiness. And I think probably because we knew, we all knew, collect to do where it was going. You know, and that's probably some friction between those ideas. The thing that really bothered me was, and this again is naive, was so naive at the time.
But I was adamant on having some kind of indication of, because it was originally said as, what's that fucking word we've used a million times, hiatus. Yeah. It's by the way, it's just such a cringey word. So it was originally pictures that. So I was thinking, I remember saying like, well, if I want to try and do some stuff on my own, and at this point, I'd even know what I was going to do. I'd be good to know how long this breaks going to be for.
So let's speculate a year, two years, five years, ten years, 15 years. I never really got an answer to that question, which I understand now. Because, truthfully, I don't think the people or person involved was brave enough to answer that question deep down. I think they probably knew the reality. That's why it was tough. And does Simon try and persuade you back into the band? Let me say that by this point, and I'd say Simon was aware of this, but maybe not quite so aware.
Because we're a band, after about two years of one direction, nobody, absolutely nobody could tell us shit. Now, we wouldn't, we were nice boys, we were never like rude or anything like that, but like, so like, if Simon, it's like, we didn't have that, he wasn't. He might have had that relationship prior, like, back in the night, he's when all that stuff was kind of prevalent, but I think we'd always had our own kind of confidence like that. So he was never involved in those kind of decision-makings.
In fact, he was smart enough to realise that that would rub us up the wrong way. Makes sense. And then it ends. And your life goes from absolutely crazy to less crazy. Yeah, it's something, it's still something that I'm unpacking, still to be honest, still trying to work out all of those kind of things. I remember, so I just spoke about before, but Julian Bonetta, who is a producer, who worked on a lot of the one direction stuff, we had a great relationship with him, really cool guy.
We had this crazy night, it was like some kind of billboard awards in Vegas. Julian, he pulled me aside and he said, and it was like, really, he's funny, because he's not really like this heavy, but it's a real heavy statement. Obviously, I had a few vocaboles or something. And he was like, where do we go from here? Now, by the way, we upset me a little bit. It's like, I understand that, and we are all in this together, but that question is a hell of a lot deeper for me than it is you.
I understand, I get it, but at the same time, you're probably, and what he did, and what he's doing is carrying on doing what he did. And I still don't really know the answer to that question. And I still, in fact, maybe I don't think you can. I think a lot of people's, not everyone's, but most people's natural trajectory of, let's just call it success. I could make a pedantic argument for it, not being specifically that. But, you know, they have a kind of linear journey, they older they get, they're more successful than they get.
What was really strange was being 24 years old and realizing that the only way is down from it. Like, there is no alternative reality where I at least keep all, or supersede, no way. There was no chance of that. And that wasn't, you know, it was very obvious. It was very obvious. It was very obvious to anyone around there. And Stanley is something that is challenging, definitely, because you've had a look behind the curtain, you know? You know, now these, those some of the things that maybe I had then that I don't have now, you know, I'm not overly pressed for, like, I don't know, like a billboard for the album on in LA, or here in New York.
I don't get those kind of opportunities anymore. Do I lose any sleep over it? No, no, not really. But I think the feeling in general of, I have to work really hard to be, to, to compete at the level I do. Like, that is just a fact. Like, I just got a number one record and the last record in the future, never in a million years, never in a million years. When I started my solo career, did I ever think that I would be getting a number one record? It's testament to my fans, testament to the record, the producers, et cetera.
But I've always had to work on my own anyway. I always felt like I've had to work really, really hard, just to kind of keep my head above water. Now, the reality of that statement is, and I realized that as I say it out loud, my version of head out of water, or head above water, is very different to a lot of people, because from 18s to 24, that whole landscape looked very, very different. And that's why I've always found it quite unrealistic to, like, not, like, to not compare the two, I completely agree with that, because you cannot compare them, the two being one direction of my own solo career.
But it's something that you can't ignore. I did a cover, I stupid of me to call it a cover. I realized that was funny. That is, when I do a one direction song, I call it a cover, which is really ironic. But I do night changes on my tour show. And I remember this one show in particular. I think it was, like, a 5,000 capacity room. And I think maybe we'd done, like, 1200 tickets, which, you know, is okay. That's all right. But when you're singing night changes, it gig like that, when you can vividly and visually remember singing night changes like that at, say, Wembley Stadium.
And you're literally singing, look how fast the night changes. And you're looking out to this sparse room. It's like a brew or kind of poetry. And that's the point about being unrealistic. I could be the most, and I am. I could be the most glass half full guy in the world. But life is going to constantly challenge me like that. Definitely because that was the pinnacle. Yeah, I am. I mean, it's very, very human. Obviously, the example in scenario you're talking about is one no one can understand.
But the comparison is how we work. It's how we understand the value of things. And as you say, going to the top of man Everest at 24 means that you're going to have some kind of sort of even unconscious comparison to everything there after. What do you do about that? Do you have to use a different yardstick of measurement? I try to. These are words, aren't they? That's it. And some days I live by it. Some days I live by it definitely. I wrote something on my social media, probably like four or five years ago now.
But it was on Instagram, I think. And about my interpretation of the word success because I'd spent a long time and I owning you through the lens of one direction. And I think that's a constant battle. It's a constant conversation with myself. And certainly that I can measure my own success in a different way. It doesn't have to be a numbers game, you know. In terms of like fulfillment, for example. And like, you know, going do it like this latest record that I've just written.
Like I feel really, really good about it. There's been an element of me kind of swimming against the tide a little bit to this point. It's like that. The feeling of fulfillment is like that's legit. Did you have conversations with your former bandmates about how they were coping with these? Yeah, yeah. It's all different. To be honest, that would only happen mainly. And like between the other boys, like not that it's not like emotional because like it is.
And it's definitely deeper in surface level. But it's more... It's more... I would struggle to take through the boys as much. I mean, just... I would love to hang out with them in person like that. But I just... There's an element of it feeling... It's just all a bit small talk, you know. Which is lovely and it's nice. And it's nice to catch up on that. But me and them would always speak on a much more deep level. Because... And like he definitely...
I felt bad saying this because I feel arrogant but I shouldn't. I wanted to look after him definitely there. Like that was... That was like a role. I feel like I was there to play. And like he definitely, you know, often his... The way he would like perceive certain parts of his life. I would be really inspired by like he was someone who... Really brave at times. Which, like, contrary to sometimes what he put out. But really, really brave. Like he would ask anyone anything with a smile.
And like, you know, he had a really good way about it and like that. I would say he was the closest to being my brother. Love him deeply. Could spend hours and hours and hours with him. But there was an element of... Always checking in. And just making sure that like he's cool like that. Did you worry about him? Always. Yeah. Could be cause... Because I knew he was a little misunderstood. But also, you know, like interestingly the record. When you start out as a solo artist, the parallels of...
People who know themselves made the best records. Definitely. So like if you're still unpacking all that information of who you are as a person as an adult, which we all were opposed to one direction, it's not impossible to point and go, this is who I want to be as an artist. Because essentially it's just a metaphor for who you are as a person, at least the best of it. Liam would be someone who candidly I could say to him really honestly, like, bro, fucking hell, I miss being in the band.
And we could like have a really honest conversation like that. Whereas... And I don't mean this in any kind of way. But if I'd said that to any of the boys, I'd be worried that they might think, oh, things aren't going well in this solo life, you know. Whereas Liam, I never had to worry about those things. It was... It was like brothers like that. He was heartless, sleeve didn't he? So Liam was Liam. Yeah, definitely. And I just... It's really fresh that.
It's a really, really cool way of living. Because we all say, even like I would like to say, I wear my heartless sleeve. But you know, there's still 10% of me. It's guard in the right places. He'd certainly had his... His way of being, I like to. I do... Whereas we were saying, I do wonder if that made him slightly more susceptible to... The pressures. Because sometimes, you know, if you can... If you can put on a second face, if you can't... Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What's helped me in this job. And there's no truer time that that kind of shows itself. It's me as a parent is... There is a real distinction. This is me... There is me at work. And there is me not at work, basically. So either being a parent or being a friend or a partner or whatever. That's always helped me to have that kind of distinction of... You know, when I'm dad to Freddie... I'm full-time dad and I'm not singer, you know. And any of that world outside does not really matter.
It's not relevant to me as a father, which isn't. Did I ever tell you about the data breach that we had at my previous company? Yeah, I remember hearing about that. Which was a total nightmare. So I'm glad that we now use one password. What are shades of steam? It's called one password. And they're the sponsor of the podcast now. And they have this feature called enterprise password manager, which means that if any of our passwords across the team are compromised or leaked, then it notifies us.
And obviously, if that were to be the case, we're at huge risk across the entire team. Through one password, EPM, you can also store all of your sensitive information. And it's helping us to move closer towards past keys, which means eventually everybody will be able to log in to pretty much everything without ever having to put a password in. Sounds like a good addition. Yeah, I think it's like the single most impactful security addition you can make to your team, especially if your team has tons of passwords that are all like hidden in Excel files and stuff.
To my listeners, if you want to secure your business, head to onepassword.com slash D-O-A-C, one password is a game changer. It's the future that I always wished would be the case, as someone that has, you know, 20, 30 different passwords for 20, 30 different applications. I asked my assistant, so if you define your reliable security system for a new place in LA, what she discovered is that most available options have the same issue. They're reactive and only take action after someone has broken into your house.
Simply say, if who sponsors this show has a completely different approach, if someone's lurking near your home or office, their AI powered cameras detect them, then human agents who act like a remote security guard take action, speaking directly to the intruder, letting them know they're being watched on camera, and if necessary, triggering a siren or spotlight to scare them off. Or they can call 911 for police dispatch. This immediate response is why I went with SimplySafe.
§03Transcript — part 3
No one else approaches security in the same way, but they have no long-term contracts or hidden fees, so you can cancel at any time. They also have a 60-day money back guarantee. My audience can say 50% on a SimplySafe home security system, at simplysafe.com slash D-O-A-C. That is simplysafe.com slash D-O-A-C. There's no safe, like a SimplySafe. I've never found more photographs of a person's life in my life. I mean... Hugh, nice little denim jacket.
What do you think when you see that photo? It looks like it reminds me of a nice time. This one? Yeah, I remember that vividly. We did like a full photo shoot in my living room. Yeah, quite a lot of the pose with the hands and the pockets. It's much more nonchalant than I would have actually been feeling. I mean, these ones are all the band photos. I mean, it's just, I can unbelievable, like looking at some of the crowds on these images is insanity.
Oh, yeah, this... My mum took this picture. This was the first picture I've ever taken of as a mum took this. You look super young. Yeah, yeah. Again, yeah. So I was the oldest 18, then you got the Harry Liam and now they were 16, saying 17. And of course, you're... Yeah, I love that picture. It kind of really sums up my and Liam's relationship. I love it. I love it. He will have told me a joke that I didn't think was like hilarious at the time.
So I'll be giving him that kind of face. And then probably about an hour later, I would have laughed to myself about it. And I have these beautiful pictures of your beautiful mother. Oh, yeah. That lovely. I love this one. I love this one. This is cute. Yeah. Yeah, I've got a very similar picture to this Bami Bedside table at home, maybe a bedroom. About a year after you leave One Direction, your mother passes away from leukemia. Thinking about the timing of all these events, thinking about the shock of being thrown into a very different life, one without the boy band around you and then your mother getting leukemia, which people don't know is the 12th most common form of cancer.
She passes away at age 42. The timing of all these things is quite unthinkable to me, because there's so much transition in your life. I'm just terribly sorry. I appreciate you saying that. I don't really have anything else to say other than just understanding what she meant to you in the role she had in your life. I'm terribly sorry. There was definitely, as you said, the time in, obviously there's no good time for anything like this. But I think the time in, that's what created a bit of, it didn't last too long.
I want to say maybe six months, but of like true resentment for the world, like real resentment. She feeling really hard done by, you know, the kind of one thing I remember about grief when you're in the midst of it. You would stub your toe, right? And something like that is utterly unjust. Now, that's the thing you might have done to none of this ever happened. You stubby toe, it'd be annoying, but you just get over it. Little things like that are really, really struggled with when I was grieving.
So things that you should work a certain way that don't, there's a zip on my jacket that won't quite go all the way up. Real micro non-important little things, but I think because of the weight of the stuff that had happened, there was just, yeah, there was a moment in my life as I said for about six months where it just felt like I couldn't win. In fact, I could only lose. So that's where even just stubbing your toe. You brought me another fucking thing.
Now, it sounds stupid to say, but once you met with these, when you met with that kind of mindset of feeling hard done by, the smallest things definitely can amplify that. When did you hear that she was sick? I got friendly with a footballer called Jamie Vardy and he'd invited me to his wedding. So I was at the wedding and now it was like the party afterwards and it was like 10 p.m. At this point, I already had quite a few vodka balls, which was not ideal for the weight of the conversation.
And I'm on call mail, I was stood outside. It wouldn't have been out in the ordinary for anyone to call me so I wasn't worried or anything like that. She called me like most days if not every day. And then she told me and you know what it's like anything like this in life. When you hear something like that carries any kind of weight, like the first 10 thoughts are either it can't be true. Maybe she's got it wrong. Maybe the doctors have got it wrong.
Just all these stages of denial of before actually even embracing the thought. It wasn't really, it wasn't kind of really like me. I didn't even feel like it was like a cry for help at the time, but that night I got absolutely battered. I got really, really drunk. That would be nice where you know this has been nice in the past where I'll have a little bit too much to drink. More from not knowing me limit, but in this kind of situation, it's not never really used drink for to be honest.
But I just that was the thought the only way just to completely escape that moment in that in that at that night. What I found really challenging during even that first conversation with her about it was. I still wanted to inspire hope I still wanted to like because she was really hopeful and she was like. So I was trying to have this like genuine worry that any sun would but I also was trying to shield a bit of my mom from that. I didn't want her to you know feel like she'd upset me or you know even obviously it wasn't her choice.
But I can remember that idea of really trying to. I would be real with my mom about how I was feeling, but there was times when I wouldn't be because I wouldn't want her to feel guilty. So she told her over the phone that she'd had a diagnosis. Yes, yes, she told me that she had leukemia. My first answer was I don't know where again, this is just like the definition of denial. My first answer word for word was, oh that's the good one to get though right.
Meaning that has the most survival rate. And blessed she has to be like, no, not really. And how long was it from that phone call to her passing? I have no idea. I could not. I want my guess would be 18 months. I think it might have been quicker than that. The anniversary of her death. I get texts all the time whenever the anniversary is and someone will say, thinking of you today. And it's only at that point that I know that that's the day because I just it's deleted from my brain.
She passes because you don't have a biological father isn't around. You're very much at that point. You know, you're the. In some respects, you're the father of lots of siblings because you're your big brother. You went out on stage three days after her death for an ex-factor performance. From what I understand from from Lotte, she very much pushed you to do that before she passed away and told you that you. You needed to do that performance. I never forget the ex-factor.
Final performance that he did with Steve Ayoki when my mom only passed away like a couple of days before, which I still can't believe he even had the strength to do. But my mom was just so proud of him and especially him starting his solo career. In like her final days, she was like, if I don't make it, I still want you to do this performance. And when she did pass, we were like, there's no way no one would have expected him to do it. But he wanted to do it for her.
And I knew, I knew exactly what that was. I knew why she was telling me. She was telling me because she would have hated something that she, something that happened to her, effect my career and my life as a person. I would do it again for her. I don't think I'll ever have a more challenging time in my life than those three and a half minutes on stage. I did it only for her. It's not something I look back on and go, I'm really proud. I am proud that I did that, but that you almost say those kind of things when you want to do something.
I'm really proud that I did that. And it felt like it was taken out of my hands. I didn't want her to have that girl, but it was the last thing in the world I want to do. Like obviously, I just, it was horrible. And also the song alluded to, the song was called Just Hold On. It's weird how empowering those moments are. I can sit here now and comfortably say that the chance now, obviously, that could be, the chances of my life being as dark as it was in those three minutes alone.
Like I would be desperately unlucky to ever be in a situation like that again, where it was, where I was so young, I was in a situation where, as you said, all the time it was and then I felt like I'd, you know, been encouraged to go out and say, but it wasn't really something that I did that I wanted to do. It puts everything into perspective, you know, so like, like nothing's going to get as hard as that. I think it, there's times where my job will weigh me down even like today, you know, not today, but I mean in this current head.
And it's just with, it helps me remember and how to put things into perspective that, you know, just because a radio station isn't playing my single, you know, that hurts, not point, not, not, not, not, 1% the same as something like that. So I think because I was so challenged emotionally and I, I, I survived the experience, it's given me a weird kind of confidence, to be honest. It's just knowing that life probably won't get that dark again. You'd sometimes don't realize that the role that your parents were playing until they're not around, that they were almost a sort of tectonic plate underneath everything, was that, was that a realization at that point?
The time I, there was this true dependency on my mom that I did not realize until I'd, until I'd lost me mom. So I think there was definitely stuff that I've had to learn like being like on my own. And often she would inspire confidence, you know, I'd say I'm worried about this. I don't want to go to this audition or I don't want to do this or I'm worried about this song. And she, like, you know, as she always did, maybe felt like I could do anything in the, in the planet.
And she'd actually made me feel stupid for even questioning the fact that I couldn't do anything. You know, so I think there's moments like that where you have to, you've almost had to re-learn confidence like that. And how, how does, how does a young man grieve the loss of his mother at such a young age? Everyone, obviously everyone, everyone's grief is completely individual. So then I find out more recently. Purpose was mine. Now this is again, not a luxury that everyone has in a situation like I found myself in.
I grieved and I, I, I had moments where I was deeply, deeply upset. But these were fleeting moments because there was too much to do for my sisters. There was too much to do for my dad and granddad. There was too much to do for me family where it gave me something to do. It gave me a true purpose. It gave me a reason in the darkest days to get out of bed and confidently get out of bed. Because I had, there was stuff that needed to be done. And at that time, my sisters were so, so, so young.
I was so terrified of what kind of effect that would have on them, you know, growing up. And luckily, they impressed me every day. They're amazing, amazing women. My role felt like the, the strong one in that situation. And someone who's willing to give someone, you know, day's-eared call means to be really upset. And by the end of the call, she can just see the glimpse of a glass half full. That was my job, you know. The grief became less relevant because of the need to look after everyone else.
Like, sometimes you might ask, like, you know, what advice would you give to people with grief? It's just an impossible question to answer just because, like, I'm still, I'm still feeling it. Like, you could, you could, and the interesting thing about that is you could spend two weeks with me and you never knew me and you never knew my life story. Never any million years would you think, so I don't carry myself like that. I'm not someone who's like down the dumps like that, but it's still there, you know.
It's, it will never go away. What are the symptoms of it still being there? There is like this air of, I suppose air of unpredictable, this feeling of, and that's sometimes where my positivity comes from too. Like, things could change tomorrow. So I suppose that is, and that kind of jeopardy and that kind of idea. That's how I would interpret it. And because for any grief that I've experienced, it has been relatively quick. I haven't really had a lot of time to compute these kind of ideas.
Does that create a certain anxiety with life in a certain worry for life that, you know, if the foundations are uncertain and bad news can arrive at any moment, one would, you know, that seems like the breeding ground of worry and anxiety. I actually wrote that down earlier because when we were speaking earlier, you said, I wasn't a worryer back then when you were talking about your childhood. Yeah, I didn't used to be a worryer. I'm sure most people can say that, right?
Your worry, your worry levels, or at least for most people are, you have less worry when you're younger, you know. You haven't quite understood all your emotions yet, really. Do you have anxiety? Did you just trouble with it? It's like, yeah, I experienced it all the time. Is it something that kind of controls me? No, you know, I'm sure you've heard about this. My vocal coach chose you to say to me that the feeling of being anxious and excited or near-identical and feeling.
And that was something that always kind of stuck with me, really, because not always, but like a lot of stuff that feels really good can be quite intimidating beforehand, you know. It was an anxiety that comes with doing something that is out of the ordinary, I suppose. I can distinctly remember not so much now, but on the first tour, like I would literally, before going out on stage, I'd literally as futile and as ridiculous as it is. I'd think to myself, how do I run away from this?
Like how could I literally run out the door and not do the gig? So maybe that would be a version of anxiety, but it didn't stop me getting up there and doing that, I suppose. Maybe there's the difference. A couple years after the passing of your mother, you lose your younger sister Felicity. And the circumstances of her death are deeply, deeply tragic. While speaking to several people in your life around you, they talked about how you had done so much since the passing of your mother to support your sisters, how you'd really taken on the role as being the quote unquote head of the family is what they told me.
And the tragedy is deepened by the fact that she's 18 years old at the time. Again, an unthinkable tragedy for one person to go through in their life, but for you to go through two of these things in succession is, I mean, I don't have the words. Yeah, that was kind of what I was speaking up before. That moment I've stubborn you to and that kind of aggravating you. That was just like that idea accentuated. I just couldn't believe, I couldn't believe how deeply unlucky I've been as a family.
It was just now, you know, maybe it's not overly uncommon. People that you lose parents young. And obviously she got to deal with it a bit at the time. I felt angry at life. And I felt angry mostly on behalf of my family. Now, it wouldn't be, like obviously I would know that I was included in this idea, but I wouldn't be thinking what have I done to deserve this. It was more daisy and feverish so young. They've already had so and lot'sy as well.
Already had so much to deal with. Why this and why now? It just, it just, it was, it did feel incredibly, incredibly unfair. That's something that's interesting about grief. It's just how different each thing feels. It definitely hit me in a different way. It was completely sudden and immediate. I, again, one of the most challenging moments in my life, the, so I sat in my house in London and everything was like fine. I was a little bit worried, I've been worried about, for the month's prior.
As I was worried about all my sisters and I was just sat in my room, smoking a joint, thinking about anything really. And then the doorbell rang at like one in the morning or something. Or maybe like midnight. And I had this feeling come over me straight away. And I'm not really this kind of guy where I'm, you know, and on another day, I might have been worried that the police were coming to grab me weed. But it wasn't like that. I just had this thing come over me straight away and I knew it was bad.
I knew that, look, when someone rings your doorbell at that time, it's not with really good news. I saw it and then I opened the gates. I've got these gates and I open the gates and I saw the police car and the policeman. And then they told me that she passed away. And I literally was like, okay, right. I can't tell you why. Because it was just, it was just, it was only me and my best friend and my ex-girlfriend at the time. So it wasn't like a pride thing of me being like, okay, like I'm cool and fine.
I just, I think I didn't, I just, not only did I, was I in denial at that moment. Like I just refused to even compute it. It was just like, okay, cool. And I remember shooting the door. And then I told the people I'm in the house with. And obviously then they, then they start crying. And obviously then I think your brain starts catching up with you. And something that was really, really tough for me at this moment in time. And this is a stupid thing to say because I know that he was more than willing to be there for me.
But my best friend who I was living at the time who's here today. I remember him saying, I'm just so sorry. And he was crying his eyes out. I was just like, I'm just so sorry, I'm so sorry. I felt, I felt, I felt guilty that he felt like that. I just stupid. And so I'd said before about how this is, you know, me and my family are some of the characters in this story. Often what's not spoke about in the name of grief is people like my best friend, then the role that they have to play.
Now these are not trained therapists. These are not people who've had any kind of reference of this kind of pain. And all you're doing is a best friend there is actually demanding. I'll just praying, hoping that they give you something in return that will not change the reality, but just, you know, be there for you or whatever. Nothing prepares you in life for those kind of situations. That's something that I will forever, forever, ever be in debt to him for.
Because yes, you know, this is an unfathomable, it's a really impossible situation for me and my family to have found ourselves in. But there are other people who play too, you know, and I can only imagine how hard that was. And he knew how hard it was for me and how I just lost me more. And there are no words, right? I'm sure he's scrambling your brain trying to find the words and there isn't any. Also, bear in mind everything that I've said before this, if I was to dumb my role down to like one thing in life, I'd maybe say like to look after people.
Well, like in the context of my sisters, the protector, right? To lose me sister in the manner that we did, even though I knew that it wasn't fair on myself, like I felt utterly guilty, I felt powerless and I felt like I'd let me sister and let me mum down, really. My mum said to me, like last couple of weeks of her life, she was like, you better promise me, you look after your sisters and I'm like, yeah, you know, of course, you know, I will. And she was like specifically for listed, you know, she's fragile.
I felt like I failed at the time. That's the truth. I know now that I didn't, and if she was here now, she would say that you didn't. But yeah, it doesn't change the feeling. And that's, again, you know, that's always been a role I've played in the family. And all I was trying to do, all I was trying to do after me mum was just put me in my sisters and my grandparents in a bubble and just thought, let's just nothing's going to get to us, you know.
So that, that, you know, that's like a really arrogant thing to say. I mean, this more metaphorically, but it truly undermined me. It undermined all the hope that it had, all these kind of ideas that I was instilling in post a life without our mum. It just kind of undermined all those ideas. It made it, it made it a lot more challenging for me to say them and feel them and believe them. But it seemed with me sisters like, you know, so it just made everything obviously infinitely more difficult and difficult.
The only thing I'm thankful is that me mum wasn't around to see that because that would have been horrible for her. You know, I actually learnt this from being around, funny enough, being around Liam. When someone is struggling with their, with their own demons, per se, unless you've been around someone who's really struggling, you probably don't understand how helpless it often feels. And in hindsight, it's, you know, someone that's not been in a situation thinks, well, you just, you just go over there and you sit with them and have dinner and then you fix it, you just stay.
But actually the reality of helping someone who's struggling is they often do things in private and secretly. You referenced, you knew that Flisty was, was struggling with something. Was, was that the passing of your mother that she was struggling with? Or was it live generally? I think it was a bit of both. I think, I think obviously mum passing definitely amplified any of those things. But I think with Flisty, she was one of these people that, she was Uber intelligent from a young age, really, really, really intelligent, which is ironic.
I'd say we're relatively smart family, but she was like in her own league, really, really intelligent woman. I think that brought its own social frustration for her, definitely, you know, you hear these people that are intelligent from a young age. She would always have felt like she was on the outside looking in, but only because of her intellect really. And you know, that's tough for kids when they're younger, definitely, it's not something I can personally relate to, but I can imagine how that would be really alienating and tough.
It was probably the most like me mum. So that, that, that, that, that also carried it some way because it felt, I'd say Flisty looked the most like my mum as well, like visually. I mean, she was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's crazy. You look like each other to be honest. Yeah, we do. I was used to get that when I was younger, people always used to say, how much I looked like me mum. And as a young lad, that's not really what you want to hear, but I, I've been really proud that.
Yeah. Yeah, you can see how much I love her that, bless. You see, I've alluded to some of this stuff in the past, not really ever spoke about it in depth like this. And part of the reason for that is, and this is the correct forum and it makes sense. But part of the reason for that is, I can't think of anything worse than being, what's the word? When, if someone, if someone like this was talking to me about this and I had not experienced that, I felt really sorry for them, naturally.
I don't like that. I don't like those feelings, I don't like those ideas. I appreciate that it's, it's way, and people should of course feel sorry. But I think the reason that I'm always quite selective of how, when I talk about it is because I cannot have that define me. I can't. It's not fair to my family, it's not fair to Felicity, it's not fair to my mum. I can't. And you know, the problem is, if we walked out of here and we just happen to get past, in the article, the Daily Mail print, every single time, they will write about this stuff.
Like every single time, it could be me and you go and get a coffee and then they did that thing where it's like a 20% new article and then they just fluff out the rest of 80% with basically the narrative that they want to push. That's something that I can't escape. And I find that really frustrating because I'm not someone who is a glass half empty kind of guy. I don't want those kind of feelings and emotions. I empathize and understand with anyone hearing these stories.
Of course, you're going to maybe you would feel bad for me. But I think my biggest worry in these kind of things is to not be defined by it. And an example of that would be when I released a song called Two of Us, which was a song that was written essentially about my mum's passing. Yeah. And I didn't realize by releasing that song, how A would open the floodgates to have many people kind of, you know, put a lot of their trauma on me as well, which is okay.
But also creating this thing where anyone just feels like they could ask anything then. So I remember going on to BBC breakfast news. And it's one of those things is fucking early morning slot like not even the percentage want to be there. Never mind me at that time. And I'm not good with early mornings. Anyway, so going on to talk about two of us, the single now we distinctly said, you know what it's like. You know, these are these are the things that are okay to mention and do not mention these things.
Now, if I was going to go on and talk about what the song was about, then fair or not. You know, that's that's one thing. But I actually had a journalist at the time who asked me directly about those things. And I'd known that we'd said don't. Now, it's very different to be like sometimes on that list, we might have don't speak about one direction. Like this is not what I've got a problem with. But when someone's had their own grief and you still then going to ask those kind of questions, I think.
I found that really, really troubling. And I think what was interesting was I left the interview. Oh, it used to be good at this one. I was a bit younger. And I was like, never fucking working with the BBC again. And they came back at me this journalist. He said, well, if you write a song about grief, expect to be asked about it. And my instinctive reaction was there's somebody who hasn't experienced grief. They couldn't possibly have. Because if they had, they wouldn't make such a horrible, horrible comment that just lacks all kind of empathy.
So I think it's those kind of moments where I've, I'm quite guarded with this kind of information. Just because I think, as I said, I think a lot of people have never spoke about it. I don't, I don't carry myself with someone that looks like they're really hurt. At least I hope I don't. I don't think I do. Do you know what I had? It sounds like a crazy thing for me to say. But I, I had no idea. Okay. Right. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So we met at Socrates.
Okay. Right. I had more like that. Okay. That makes me feel good actually. You know, it's, it's just me being honest. I had no idea. I'm not someone that I don't really read newspapers. I don't stay close to tabloid stuff. I had known Liam, but Liam hadn't spoken to me about these things. I'd met you hang out for a couple of days at Socrates. I had no idea. Yeah. Okay. And it was only in researching your story and your background and understanding where you've come from.
And really what inspires a lot of the music and different things like that that I started to understand these things. So you're certainly not someone that carries yourself in any, with any particular identity. Really that's that one could, could just certain other than just being a normal guy. And the other thing that connects us is it was Liam. And I think it would have been Liam's birthday a couple of days ago. Yes. But there was three days off mine.
So he's the 29th of August, I believe, and mine's the 26th. And we both, I wouldn't know him a little bit. You know him an awful lot. And he passed away while on holiday in Argentina. I mean, yeah, I just couldn't believe it. And you, to him, because he had told me he talked about you all the time through the pandemic, I know you were doing things together, doing sort of these sort of live shows and stuff. And he would talk about you as if you were his best friend in the band all the time.
And I guess that's, you feel, you reciprocate that feeling with him, right? You were like the, especially there after the band, you know. Definitely there after. I'd say in the first couple of years, mainly when we used to speak about this, we kind of both had heads a little bit. Like I said before, Liam had been, you know, he'd been working really, really hard since the age of 14 to get to where he was in one direction. My journey wasn't like that.
So there was definitely, you know, if I wanted to do something, and I might be going out late at night and then Liam might say something online, along the lines of, we've got a photo shoot at nine o'clock in the morning. Tomorrow, we never saw eye to eye on those kind of things. Because I'm just like, well, I've got this amazing opportunity. So I'm still going to go out and, you know, party or whatever. But I think Liam, he came from a very, very sensible point of view.
But mostly because he had, he'd given so much more time and energy to it by that point. Like, as I said, like when, yes, it was my third audition. But really, they weren't too taxing the moments of the rejection. I just got on with it and got through it and it was fine. The only time X factor was relevant to me was the times when I was auditioning those days. Whereas Liam, it became his life from 14 right up until 16. You know, he'd sang it like West Brom Stadium before like any of us had done anything.
I, when I put my post up about him, and by the way, it's so utterly challenging that. There are just too many words and too many memories. You could let it, it could just be infinite. The, the post, you know, you got to, you, I really wanted, I really wanted him to be remembered the way that he should be remembered. But this, you know, I could just go on and talk all day about how amazing he was. But I think we all looked up to him. If we, if we're, I don't think I would have been brave enough to say at that age when I was in the band.
§04Transcript — part 4
I think I would have had too much pride. But we all looked up to him massively. For like the reasons that I just stated, you know, he was vastly experienced before. Any of us had done anything. Um, he was also like the safest pair of hands. Like in every sense of the word. So like vocally, interview, music video, you know, like whatever it would be. And he'd be like working and doing it like he would always be the safest pair of hands. Where you, maybe if me and say in the back, like he have a smoke and a joint or doing something stupid.
Then we'd always, always have his eye on the ball, which. I run a key created more space for the, you know, when you've got someone who's willing to pick up the pieces. And you've got young lads. Young lads don't reflect and go, oh, I can see he's picking up a lot of the pieces. I'm going to do a bit more for it. Well, no, you just see that. Like my role in the band might have been to be disruptive and have conversations record labels or management or whoever.
And that was for me to be disruptive and go against the grain. Liam's role was the opposite, but equally, if not more important, to just keep everything going, you know. And be that safe pair of hands of keeping everything in check. That's why from like a very young age that he was, he was, he was called that the sensible one in the band, which I also don't think would have been in loads of favors meant to the either. He was wildly misunderstood.
Big time, big time, man, big time. And often times people maliciously misunderstood him, which was hard, you know, it's hard. I don't know if I have the right words for this, but if you knew Liam Payne, and then you went on the internet and saw the way that he was described when, you know, certain moments in Prassam, there was that interview he did in LA and things like that. You could only feel awful that he was so poorly misunderstood because he was often paying to this being arrogant or whatever.
But the reality of Liam is like the opposite of whatever the one Eric and it's pure is the word. Really, yeah, really nice way of describing him like that. Had, and I don't mean this in a remotely rude way or a drug or two, a drug or two way, he had a bit of puppy dog energy about him. You know, like he's just like, when you say pure there, that's what it makes me feel like. He's just the kind of guy that you might, you know, you might get a bit of band wrong and it comes across a bit cluttered and you see him go, oh, and you go, oh, fucking awesome.
Just such a, just really wanted to be liked. And that we all do, obviously like that, that's in all of us, but I think for Liam, it was, it was fairly important. But also he missed out on some of the social life because from 14 to 16, he was actually working at that point. Like he was still at school and stuff, but his brain and his dreams and probably every night that he went to sleep, he was thinking about how is he going to achieve what it is that he wants to achieve.
So he, he definitely had a very different journey to all of us. Where were you when you, you found out in the car on in LA and I just dropped. I'm pretty sure again, my memory isn't good at these moments of time, but I think, I think I just dropped for really off at school, my son, and we were just about to pull back up home. Yeah, and yeah, I think that's how it went down. It was actually, it was actually, I found out through Nile. They told me and then I, yeah, I, I think you said Nile says something like, on the lens of every single news.
And as you said, that kind of you, what it might meant, what might it might have meant. I had the same, the feeling to, that had a flesty, you know, I think anyone has this when they're around someone who's struggling. My 150% wasn't nearly enough. And that's where we, you know, it's my own arrogance thinking that I could have helped really, because it was so much deeper than what I could have done for him. He was definitely, you know, he was definitely struggling at that time in his life.
And a lot of people said this and I've really, really resonated with me. I just, he never, if he could, if he could just see just for five minutes, just live in your head or my head and see how we perceive him. He would be so shocked. He would be like, honestly, even the fact that you two are friends and I didn't know about that until you mentioned it so great, maybe he'd mentioned it loosely. He would have loved that. He would have loved that. He would have, you would have been someone definitely, definitely that he would have felt really like proud to know, you know, because you come from also a very credible space and that's something that was always really important to Liam business.
Very, very important to Liam. So the fact that you saw him, that would have meant the world to him, definitely. He just, yeah, he, he, he very, very misunderstood. But I think also the fact that he was misunderstood is because he was, like I said before about all of our solo endeavors. When most bands or artists start out, they do a development stage for six months, 12 months, 18 months, two years. We had to do this development in the public eye, post being in one direction.
Liam was still working so much out. So the fact that he might have been misunderstood, you can't, you know, there's some things that people definitely can be judged for. But in terms of him occasionally coming across like that, you can't even judge people on looking because they just see what they see. But in reality, that's just someone navigating almost in the way that if you went down to university and just people watched for two months, you would see some stuff, you know, that people that were struggling with some things and whatever.
Or, you know, complete walking contradictions. You'd see someone in the first year who says that they swear by this brand and they'll never wear this brand at the next year. They'll be wearing said brand. When we're at that age, we're all still just working it out. There's so much room to be misunderstood because you, you, you don't know yet, you know. And I think that was a tough thing for all of us is working out who am I outside of Liam in one direction, Louis in one direction.
Who, who am I? And what does that look like? And that question's intimidating, really, really intimidating. You lose a friend there, but you also, in some respects, it marks it's grieving the band again. Is it not? Is it not? You know what I mean? You definitely brought up feelings like that. Look, there's, there's, there's now only three other people on the planet that can deeply understand my professional journey. Like you never say never, but never, like I just can't, I can't ever imagine.
I'm not sure it would be right to him. Say, say, say segment 25 years time, it's like a fucking oasis thing. They offer us an arm and a leg and they'll like come back and do this many shows. I don't know. Yeah, I think it just, it just completely put a pen and all that. And the irony is there was no one campaigning for one direction to get back, back together more than Liam. And like, I would say I came in a close second, actually, like definitely.
It's an important thing to mention about Liam, which I thought was incredible. There's a time where I felt like me and Liam were professionally losing together. We were struggling to, to be celilitis and find true success and we're kind of struggling together. And then Liam had little moments where he had like really successful singles and the stream really well. And he'd like feel really good about that. But at that time, nothing was really working for me in my job.
So I was really proud of him and I'd message him and stuff. And then not to the same weight, but kind of role reversed a little bit. And Liam start was struggling a little bit more professionally. And I just started, just started to understand the picture a little bit more, started doing more touring and stuff like that. And like, for example, when my, I made a documentary in a film about like my life after one direction and Liam came to the premiere.
Now, I'll just say this because I was going to mince me words, but none of the other boys would have done that. Fact, boys out the band, the lads in one direction. Would I have even done that? I like to sit here now and say, yeah, I think I would, but I don't know, truthfully. And the point being that Liam made me empathizing how I was a couple of years prior to that. Liam was sat in a cinema watching a film about how I'd been successful in the last 12 months when he was struggling with his own things.
And it's something that I'm not sure I would have been brave enough to do. I'm not sure the other boys would have. And basically all that is to sum that up is just utterly putting himself second. There's no way that that wouldn't have had a certain kind of way on it. Because as you said, we're all human and we naturally compare. So, you know, there might be things that were happening there that he was wanting for. And I think just the fact that he turned up on that day and was there for me.
And I just did the role reverse in my head and imagined that. I just imagined how challenging it that could be. And it's just a real testament to Liam. And he couldn't have been more happy. And there's another great example right of this. I've heard the fucking internet. It's just horrible plays at times. He put up, and luckily I know someone with a screenshot because he deleted it in the end. But he put up this beautiful post after my premiere for this documentary.
Like an essay, a fucking essay. Like stuff that he's never said to me before. I was like the sweetest, nicest fucking shit. And then about two days later he deleted it. Because the fans were just came in for it. Just saying that he was like, you know, a bandwagon kind of like. Like, you know what it's like. It's a very small percentage of people that make a lot of noise. And sometimes it'll push you to a point of like even deleting a post. But that being an example of him just really putting himself second.
And really trying to say to the world how proud he was of me. And the end goal was more ridicule. And so he happened right when he was an Argentinist. He was there catching Nile. Yeah. And there was lots of similar narrative around his appearance though. And all I would say in any regard like that. Not just Liam in any person like that. After you judge, because sometimes it's human nature to judge. After you judge, just give those things just a little bit more thought.
So take the tour thing for example. And he's at the tour show and people were. People are making comments of how much he was loving the attention. On the service level, that's someone who wants attention. If you just look a little bit deeper, that's someone who's just been in the biggest band in the world. And once those situations again, who hasn't had those live situations again. And craves for that. The reason also Liam could be misunderstood is because he.
He didn't really operate with the filter. You know, so he would just feel something say it and they go. Is there anything else that you you've been meaning to say? It's a great provocative question. No, no, there is. There is. Well, we should talk, we should talk about Freddie for a second. My little boy. From the head. Yeah. Which is again, something that happened to me. I was young. I was 24 when I had Freddie. Now, what a lot of people, the emotions that a lot of people go through when they've become a new parent.
Some of those will be different for me because I've always been. Uber excited about it, even from like being a young, young lad. But also, truthfully, I felt utterly confident. I just, I just, I felt I felt like I was going to be a good dad. I really, really wanted to do that and to play that role. And he's just, honestly, he is just the sweetest kid, man. He's just so kind. Like, that's what, honestly, I could well up thinking about it now. Like, that's what, that's what makes me feel deeply proud.
That, I mean, that's what I did ask Lotty and a few others about, about him. And the quote that I got back is, Louis is the most amazing dad. His little boy is the nicest, sweetest, most polite boy ever. And that's obviously because of how Louis has brought him up. I try to take a lot of advice and be more like him with my parenting. And that came from Lotty. Multiple accounts of just how wonderful of a young, young man. Freddie's growing up to be.
So that's a great one. I tell you what, I'm at this age 33. A few great years. I'm yet starting to be a bit more aware of me age, feeling a little bit older. There's nothing that makes you feel better than when I go pick one from school. I have a young dad. For that age group, I'm still a young dad. So, yeah, it's good for my ego as well. The only things that can sometimes be challenging like that with Freddie is it took, it was like the elephant in the room for ages, me talking about like my life and specifically the fame, specifically like those kind of things.
Because I think to a kid, they just see it in the pure sense of a singer. There's someone who sings and that's that. But I think where it became inevitable that I'd have to have conversations with them, it'd be like see where I'll, you know, a target in America and someone starts me for a photo. Now, I'd like to say I'm pretty good with photos. I'll do them eight times out ten. Whenever I'm with Freddie, there is a 1,000% no chance. Like that is just not happening.
I don't get enough time with them as it is. Always balancing me time between tour and going to see Freddie in the UK. So like it's just a flat note every single time. And I have to let the second or third time that had happened. I just played in my mind. I put into bed that night and I was reliving it and I was thinking, he's going to think I'm a dick. I got that, I was like, oh, it's really important that I push kindness on him and respect and seeing the good in people and all of that.
All of a sudden I was doing this thing that was really contrary to what I was trying to teach. So I did have to have a conversation with him about it. But again, you're trying to explain algebra as I said before. When I'm not a work, like I would be more than happy to like nobody to ever recognize me. When I'm not a work, when I'm at work, I'll need it for the promo. I'll give me a bit of that. But when I'm not a work, like I could guard me way to just never have any of that.
Huddled up, no one. Cool. So when I'm picking up Freddie from school, I am certainly not some guy used to be in this band and this thing. Like not at all. And they're like everyone else as a father or as a mother. It was last day term, go to pick him up and go into his class. And I could just hear what sounded like karaoke and I'm thinking of all fucking days and be going to pick him up and doing karaoke today. And she had absolutely no problem asking me in front of everyone if I wanted to come to the front and do one of the songs.
Now, I'm there as a parent. And what's really tough is, in front of Freddie and all his friends, I have to plightly decline. Now, I don't really like how that's going to make Freddie feel. You know, those kind of situations are really tough like that where and that's some people maybe I just grabbed the mic and just took the stage, you know. But I, those, there are moments like that that I think, I don't think he's going to truly understand until he gets a little bit older.
He's been to a couple of gigs and that definitely added like some context to it all. He came into you in California, didn't he? Yeah. Yeah, that was amazing, man. It was so amazing. I did something at 24 years old that has had a profound impact on my life. I set myself the challenge of posting every single day on my social media channels. And at the time, I was doing it to grow my following. But I had this profound impact on my life and two remarkable things happened when I did that.
I managed to learn faster because every single day I'm capturing what is happening to me and trying to distill it down into something that I can share with the world. But more remarkably, it led me to building a following of many millions of people and that's the basis that I used to launch the Diary of a CEO. And that's why I want to tell you about our sponsor today Adobe Express. They are the platform that I use to make all the posts across my LinkedIn and across my Instagram.
It's a couple of clicks and you don't need to be an expert. And that is why I love using it because I'm not an expert in graphic design. It's accessible to use for all of us, even if we don't have the technical prowess to design great things. So if you want to start compounding both your reach and your knowledge like I did at 24 years old, then head to Adobe.ly slash Stephen and get started with Adobe Express. That's Adobe.ly slash Stephen. I guess we should talk about the music.
Yeah. I'm very excited to talk about. So you've been working on this album. And I think what's the important context we've had is I'm curious to know how much everything we've talked about today and the season of life that you've arrived at 33. You're now in love as well. Your girlfriend is now there. From all the people I spoke to, you're very smitten. I think your friend from back home described you as being whipped. Was that myself? Yeah. Sounds like a home.
That's funny. And you went Instagram official? Yeah. Yeah. New territory for me all that. Yeah. I'm learning on the job. How does that all weave into the music? And how is the music different this time around? What are you thinking going into the studio? You know, all those things are so relevant. They are like, you know, person alive and how happy you are and fulfilled and content. All those things of course play into the record definitely. I think because of, you know, a lot of the conversation we've just had, there's been a certain kind of weight to the music before now.
Like I said, I wrote that song about my mum called Two of Us. And there's just a certain, I could imagine, you know, listen to my first record. Like I'd be pretty exhausted after listening to it emotionally. He's like, fucking hell, just put in a couple of nice, happy, fun songs, you know. But it wasn't true to me at that time. So like I think now I feel in a comfortable place to be like positive and like happy and confident. You know, that's one thing I was thinking about with this record is like my intention is just to maybe feel good.
And that's a really cliche and like obvious thing to say. But I'm not sure some of my other music did that. It made you feel it was honest, it was painful at times, but you didn't feel that good. So I think now I've got this one as like a new sense of life, a new sense of happiness and purpose and fulfillment, all those things. But also it's something I've, like the older I get, the more hippie I can get on these kind of ideas. And if I would use it like an analogy on the last two records, I had a very small palette of paint of the colors I was choosing from.
And a lot of them were kind of darker colors. Whereas on this record, it feels like the palette is a lot deeper. There is a lot more to say, but there's a lot more color on there as well. That makes me further good because that I must feel good to make that record. You can't fake shit like that or at least I can't anyway. And how much does love come into all of this? As I said, I'm deeply, deeply romantic person. It's also, it's also easy to be romantic when you're a creative, you know.
Those two things are just, they're tight. But I think for me, I really struggle to write in a fictional sense, I really, really struggle. So like for me, I have to have been living it, I have to, it has to be literal, it has to be real to me. So if I wasn't feeling so good right now, I wasn't feeling so in love. The record probably would have a slightly different feel to it. Just because it, you know, I, things like that are in everything that I, we do, I would say.
And what is success for you this time around? Like what is, we talked about the comparison in this and that and all these other yardsticks we can use. I tell you what success is, success for me. Is actually successfully computing what the new idea of success is. So I know what my old idea is, but true success for me and I'm not there yet, is getting to the point where I don't just say this is my new version of success. I mean it implicitly. And it's really, what's really difficult is the music industry is an industry that is A, a numbers game, and B competitive.
Now you can pretend to have this different version of success and you can get there in the end. But the point being that like there are a million different tools in place to pull you to the other side. Yeah. It genuinely shouldn't matter where my album charts. Let's just say like the Gulf of the UK, for example, where my album charts in the UK. It shouldn't really matter that much to me, but it does. I've not quite got there yet. And I think the irony is I just started to get there on the last record.
And the last record, obviously, high class problem, I get that, went to number one. And then I was like, well, obviously I want it again now. So I started to have the answer for what the new thing of success looks like. Until I succeeded, I superseded my own idea of success. And then I'm like, oh, well, then the barriers just changed. And then you're basically just playing the same game you were before. Where are you in your journey of happiness?
Like if you had to plot your life on a timeline of like, you know, I like that. So I really thought about that like, thought about it like this and makes me feel good. It feels like I'm on the home straight. Okay, nice. Beautiful. Like I feel like truthfully, like obviously not what I would have told, like my sister's like back in the day or my family or anything like that, but like it was more of a concept. The idea of me getting over this and being truly happy for a long time.
It was like a concept as opposed to any kind of form of reality. It was like, well, I'm sure, you know, logically that makes sense at my head. But will I ever get that? I don't know. I now feel worthy for the success that I've heard. And for a long time, I just didn't know if I'd ever get there. I would say this record, this album, is the album that I was always, that I always deserved to make. It's just that had to be brave enough to say, yes, I'm an artist, yes, I'm a recording artist, and I'm a touring artist, and I'm a songwriter.
And all these things that sometimes just felt a little bit cringed to say out loud, you know, I think part of the imposter syndrome may be. But the picture that was forever quite blurry looks a little bit more sharp now. And I mean, the fans are waiting. Yeah. I saw the tweet you did the other day where you talked about the music and how confident you are and how you're feeling about it. And the response underneath that post was just insane. Absolutely insane.
The energy is there. And people are extremely excited. Do you have an incredible fan base? Yeah, honestly, I could never talk about this enough. And anyone listening to this now that doesn't know me or my fans will just think that this is just another artist speaking another cliche about his fans. I'm telling you, this is what I call it as a codependency. Like, they do so much for me. And I do, you know, hopefully stuff for them when I do the gigs and stuff.
But like, when I feel the energy on stage, this is not a, let me show you all what I can do. This is a look what we've done together, you know, and I really, really feel that. The size of the venues that I'll be playing on this next tour, these are things that I never considered for myself. And it only made possible from the fan base being like really, really loyal. But also like real patient, real patient for me to just kind of, you know, work all these things out on the fly while they keep buying the record.
The other thing that really surprised me the lot of people didn't know about is that you are also a pretty prolific entrepreneur in your own right. And you've, you've found in a music festival called The Away from Home Festival, which was originally in London but is expanded internationally around Spain, Italy, Mexico. You got your clothing brand as well, 28. I saw 28 tattooed on your arm there. I believe, which is a streetwear brand. And that's done tremendously well.
The brand has sold four sold out drops worldwide and hosted some incredible events. Well, I'm very excited. I'm very, very excited about your, your album. Very, very excited by, I'm, I guess, some, do you have a name for your fan base yet? Everyone seems to have a name for their fan. Do you want that so funny? The Tomlins? I don't know what's it. There must be, though. Oh, I think they'll call themselves the Louis. The Louis, okay. So I'm a Louis.
There we go. There we go. Just rolls up the top. We have a closing tradition on this podcast. The next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for. The question left for you. It's been a paragraph, but I'm going to give it my best shot. If you are truly prioritizing the most important things in your life, brackets, EG family, and we only have limited time and effort to give, if you are a high achiever and performer, have you prioritized the most important thing?
No, no, I haven't. I haven't. But I would, I would, I would, it's really tough on to answer. It requires some true, true honesty. Those are the things that really, really matter. For a star, I spent a lot of my, a lot of my later teen years and early adult life in one direction. So I didn't, I didn't, I wasn't really in the headspace for the ball to have dropped for how important certain things are. When you're younger, you're super literal, right?
If I drink this alcohol and get really drunk, and I feel good, then that's good, right? Then you get a bit older and you realize, oh, maybe it's not so good. So like any of those kind of things, I suppose now I understand how important, you know, looking out for yourself is and mental health. But also, you know, I've always been a family guy. But I mean, actually deeply cherishing those moments as well. So I definitely could have done that more as a young lad.
But I think that's probably the case of a lot of young people that they probably reflect and think, well, I should have done that more as a, as a young person. But the truth is the ball doesn't really drop chair. You don't realize how important those, all those little intricacies are. Because also when you're young, everything's so new. So you just, like, the law is so much sexier on the other side. It all looks a new thing here, new thing here, new thing here.
Whereas, I think it takes a bit of age and experience to look at those things go, oh, actually, maybe I haven't been spending my time correctly. Yeah, I mean, you said it perfectly. And it really held the mirror up to me to be honest, because I think, you know, you said you haven't perfectly prioritized the most important things. But you're certainly prioritizing the most than, more than most people. You know, because I hear about how much time, how much effort you put into making sure you spend time with Freddie and your sister described you as always being family centric.
And that's a really, really beautiful thing. Louis, thank you so much. I can't be more excited to listen to the album. With all the context that we've described, and also understanding of where you've arrived at in your life now, and how your perspective has developed, and all that lived experience has poured into a beautifully, uplifting, wonderful sound. So thank you so much for the honor and the privilege of being able to have this conversation with you.
And just for being a really, a really on and off camera, just a really, really sound guy. Oh, nice one, man. I appreciate that. Now, I really enjoyed it, man. I really, really flew by, though. We've been talking for some time. Yeah, it's a good one. Thank you so much. Make sure you keep what I'm about to say to yourself. I'm inviting 10,000 of you to come even deeper into the diorevasia. Welcome to my inner circle. This is a brand new private community that I'm launching to the world.
We have so many incredible things that happen, that you are never shown. We have the briefs that are on my pad when I'm recording the conversation. We have clips we've never released. We have behind the scenes conversations with the guests, and also the episodes that we've never, ever released. And so much more. In the circle you'll have direct access to me, you can tell us what you want this show to be, who you want us to interview, and the types of conversations you would love us to have.
But remember for now, we're only inviting the first 10,000 people that joined before it closes. So if you want to join our private close community, head to the link in the description below, or go to doccircle.com. I will speak to you then.