Liam Payne Opens Up About His Darkest Moments, Failed Relationships & Entrepreneurship
Guests: Liam
Full transcript · Read the full conversation in order, with its original context.
§01Transcript — part 1
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There are very few people, maybe just the five of them on planet Earth, that have gone through what my next guest has gone through over the last decade. Very, very few people on planet Earth that can tell you the stories he can tell you and talk to you about the lessons he's learned.
Liam Payne is a miraculous, inspiring, complex, very honest, very vulnerable, very open book. Today, he's going to tell you about things that he probably shouldn't say and topics that he probably shouldn't talk about. But just imagine, imagine being catapulted into stardom at 14 years old and becoming what many consider to be the modern-day Beatles.
He toured the world with One Direction. They had their ups, their downs, their mental health crises, their scandals, their relationships, and everything in between. If I was 16 years old and you asked me what I wanted to be, I'd probably say professional football player or being in a boy band traveling the world. It seems like a life that we'd all give everything to have. But what you're going to hear today is very different, and it might just change your mind. It certainly changed mine.
So, without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.
Liam, crazy, crazy year society, all of us have had with this whole lockdown situation. The place I wanted to start is just to ask how it’s been for you?
It has been interesting. I feel like I got the lockdown—the first depressive part of lockdown—a lot later than everybody else because our work went through the roof. Basically, it was interesting because I had to learn styling, makeup, hair, all these things that I wouldn't usually do when I'm with my team.
I lost everyone because you couldn't have anyone in close contact. So, I just had me and a camera guy that was staying with me. So every job was like—I mean, we even had one day where we set up our own green screen. We set the green screen up from 1:00 PM until 10:00 PM and then recorded until 5:00 AM. It was like a whole day. We were busier than ever. Then we started doing these online shows which went really great with a company called Veeps.
Then I stopped working, which I thought was going to be really good for me because I was tired, and it was actually the worst thing in the world for me.
When you say you stopped working, describe your day at that point?
I mean, I was just finding myself on the sofa for the whole day just watching random Netflix. I've seen everything on Netflix. At the time, I was with my partner. It was wild, and it was dark because you can't really go anywhere. You don't really know what you're doing, and I felt like my career was kind of in a funny place at that point as well.
Are you the type of person that needs to be kept busy?
I think so. I think I've had a crash course this last year in learning to have my own time. I mean, imagine from about the age of 16, 17, we had a day sheet every day. So when you don't have a day sheet, it's like, what the hell do I do? And then the other part of it is like you don't really learn what you enjoy from that point either. So that was quite difficult in lockdown because you have so much time to yourself.
I saw something the other day about toxic productivity. Obviously, they have a new "ism" for everything. But it actually made sense to me. If I'm not doing something that's productive, I feel like I'm going backwards. So then I'm trying to make—I'm trying to force moves. I suppose that was one of the things I think I learned most about myself: I don't have to be doing something every day to feel good about myself.
Where does that come from, do you think? That need to feel like you're moving forward or it feels like backward motion?
I have no idea. I think I'm just quite driven in that sense. I think we just always worked. Like, I started—I was first on TV at 14. So that's young. The audience expectation at that point was like 20 million people, which was wild. So from then on, my life has just been like doing the same thing over and over and over again up until this point.
At times you fall out of love with it, and I think that trying to find—and also, you're not under any impression that this isn't going to stop at some point. Like, a lifespan for the average pop star—I've outlived most lifespans for that sort of thing, which has been amazing. Really, really cool. And I think part of that is probably from starting so young. But you know it's going to end at some point, so you always want to find something else that you're good at to kind of safety cushion yourself.
This is what investing has been my godsend in that because I started that really young as well and trying to think about how I would do this or how I would do that. Asking our old managers and people like that what they invest in and stuff like that, which kind of makes me feel safer.
And does that come from a place of like mild paranoia that this might go someday, right?
100%. It’s like doomsday prophesying.
Do you worry a lot generally?
I think I did up until the last few months. I mean, having a lot of time at home—I think a lot of people had this same sort of thing—alcohol was just getting earlier and earlier.
It was easier and easier to go to. And for me, I think there's a slight little bit of social anxiety as well in it that it was already hard sometimes to go out places for the thought that you might like—get papped or whatever. There's always that extra level of stress. So for me, I've always been quite withdrawn.
So talking about lockdown, so you go through that sort of depressive period. I think we all went through that. And I think for me what I kept thinking about is like if you just go with the lockdown, you—someone like me—would just probably like hang around bed on my laptop. What I had to do was like proactively, "Steve, get up and do something today. Go put your shoes on."
But then the thing I found about that was sometimes you ain't Superman and you're going to have a bad day. And my thing is if I don't set out what my aim is to do that day, then I become more depressed, if that makes sense.
But it's just like—I think the main thing for me, I've always called it like a small victories thing. And that's why I love the gym. Because if I've at least been to the gym that day, then I've done something. But then I started to branch that out more, that it was "call a family member," spend some time with my son, make sure I get FaceTime in. Because it was hard because at the first point of it, we couldn't see each other and it was the longest I hadn't seen my son in a long time, which was difficult. But then it was like, as long as I've done one of those things in the day, then it doesn't matter if I didn't do anything else.
And it's like what I found more than anything, and this with alcohol with other stuff, is like boundaries. There were no boundaries. So, you know, if you're on Zoom, you can quite easily hide that you might be a little bit tipsy at the point you shouldn't be. So it was like creating your own boundaries, creating your own routines. And that's where I think everybody struggled the most. Without routine—and I noticed you had a dog here—at the moment that's one of my things. I think I'm definitely going to get a dog because I need routine. I need it.
So you start drinking more and more during the lockdown. You realize—you get aware of it?
Oh, I put on so much weight. I was eating badly and kind of describing it as a bulking period. It was a dirty bulk, don't worry about it. It’s intentional. I’m doing it for a movie role! It’s all good. That’s my best new excuse. If anyone asks you, "Did you put weight on?" Yeah, it's for a role. Don't worry.
I put a lot of weight on. And what got me, I did one performance on TV—it was with the BAFTAs actually—and I was disappointed in myself but like, I was always a fairly sporty kid and kept moving. I didn't look how I want to look. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but just in your own self, you know how you feel about it. And obviously, they say the camera adds 10 pounds—it definitely did. And I saw myself for the first time and I was like, oh my god, like I've completely let myself go in this. And it was fine. I kind of needed it. And actually, it's been the best outcome for me because I feel so much more secure in myself now and I feel like I know where I'm at again, which is good.
Have you struggled to maintain consistency with the gym? I know I have. Over the last five years?
I did, I did. I mean, training partners is the best one for that. Each of you putting a session together and throwing in different moves because then you're doing something that's a bit different. We recently—my training partner and I—got to like a point where we're like a stalemate with the stuff that we're doing. So then we started like branching out to different gyms and they have different kit.
But I'm fairly good with keeping myself on the go with it. I mean, like I say, the only problem for me was alcohol. You can't train and drink and anything. You can't do it all at once. You're either going to be a rockstar or you're going to be a star in the gym. That's your choice.
And do you think you've got a bit of a sort of addictive personality in that regard where you'll get into something and just go all the way?
I mean, as an addict I want to say no, but I know I definitely do. 100%. I think there's a lot worse things to be addicted to than looking after yourself. So, yeah.
What's been the upside for you? A lot of people listening to this will, especially coming out of lockdown now, there's a lot of people that weren't able to go to the gym because they were closed. And now they, you know, some people just need that little bit of a push to understand what the value is of the gym. What's the value of the gym been in your life?
I think—because you're going twice today! Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't call the first one a session. The first one's more of like a wake-up, let's call it a Vinyasa, like a yoga type. The first day I went to the gym in lockdown, I went and looked at the gym. Because I was like, if I go in there and start moving around and throwing stuff and whatever else, then I'm not going to want to go the next day. You have to slowly build it up.
Don't go in thinking you need to do 45 minutes because I read in a magazine that they said this. There’s no quick route. For me, you need three months for any significant change that you have. And then it's like start at 20 minutes, 15 minutes, and just go and feel it out. And then you will find after a while that you're like, "Oh my god, I only have five more minutes in here and I need another five minutes." Guess what? You can have them! So then it's slowly like we've—we're up to, you know, an hour, an hour and 10 minutes now. But for me, it's just like I say, it's being able to get into bed at night and have that small victory to know at least I did this. And it was for me. It wasn't for anybody else. That's I think that's important.
And you're not doing it to try and get a sick—I mean everyone's doing it low-key try and get sick pack—but you're doing it because it's a lifestyle decision for your health?
Yeah, I mean, I recently started Jiu-Jitsu and it's for me. I want to be able to do what a lot of these guys are doing. The funny thing about Jiu-Jitsu is it's super humbling because you just get thrown around like a tiger eating a gazelle or something. I mean, it's wild. So it's like as soon as that happens—and I was always quite a small dude, I've never been like a big guy. I mean, even when I did my underwear commercial I was still like 75 kilos, which is super light, right? Super light. So when I'm in the gym, people are like throwing me over here and I'm like, "Oh, I'm going that way today, am I? Then I'm over here." So I did want to put some weight on but I put too much weight on at one point. It’s more for the fitness side and the Jiu-Jitsu side that I'm training as hard as I am.
I wanted to ask you some advice. I've been announced as a Dragon on Dragon's Den. How do you feel about that by the way?
It’s pretty cool, man.
It’s cool because when you're a dragon—like some kids want to grow up being a dragon! I know! I watched it when I was 12. It came out when I was 12 and I used to watch it and I've never missed an episode. And I said to the team I used to pretend I was a dragon, sit there, pause the TV, give my verdict at 13 years old to the entrepreneur, all this stuff.
The bit I wanted to ask your advice on is when it was announced, you know, I had my little moment, 15 seconds where all of the press talk about you, your Twitter blows up, lots of attention. What advice would you give to me about dealing with this kind of noise? Because you—I mean, there's not many people on planet Earth that have dealt with noise like that, right?
I think don't—it's a really fine line between getting too wrapped up in what's going on and not being wrapped up enough in it, if you know what I mean. I think you know the things that hurt you the most because you know they're honest. So when someone says something new, like if they hurt you, then you know there's some truth in it because it hurt you. If it's ridiculous, you just go, "Oh, that was funny. As if they said that."
So I think there's a fine line to tread with it. And I mean, I've gone through eras where I was such like a little clapback attitude-driven youth. As soon as someone would say something, I'd be like, "Right well then, let's go at you." I was a bit mean and nasty at points actually, which is bit bad. But when you're a teen growing up in it and people are like basically bullying you and they get paid for it, it's like that's a bit outrageous so I'm going to have my say.
But then it's like someone said to me over time, it's like, you know, if someone says something about me in the press in this country and then I say something about them, it ends up on E! News and then they've made America. I didn't get anywhere. So it's like don't bring people up to your level if you don't think you—unless you absolutely have to. And one thing I would say, don't lose your phone doing this: Notes. If someone pisses you off, write a note about it as if you were writing them a letter and then let it go. Just don't send it. And then it gets all your what you would tweet out, but you don't say it. That was the best thing I ever did.
So pop open your notes then, let's have a look!
I just remembered one. Fucking hell. No, it's crazy because you read stuff and I was saying to you before we started filming, like I've got a baby apparently and a wife and then you look at yourself and go, "No, I know! You're doing really well, yeah." And I just thought, you know, it's crazy that there's not a high regard for truth in—
Do you know what? I was actually on the way into this and I wanted to speak about this. Because obviously there's a lot in the world at the moment about freedom of speech and the press freedom of speech, which I agree with, right? We shouldn't—we don't need to dictate laws. My only problem is, and my biggest problem around Corona was the fact that the media were allowed to twist our thinking about Corona as much as they wanted to. And they're still doing it now, but the fear-mongering isn't helping anyone.
And these people aren't sat there, "I know, I've just written a great article, my boss is going to promote me." Oh yeah, but you just decreased the value of the pound. So your wages that you think are worth more are now worth less. It’s a struggling industry, right? I just don't get it. I’m like, if it's a medical thing and it's the world that is in trouble, maybe there should have to be something in place that says this is true. Or not that they have to put a disclaimer and say you should take advice from your local government. Bullshit. We all read you for advice and you are offering us a disservice by telling us non-truths about stuff. I just don't get it.
We should be regulated, you’re saying? Yeah, I get that there's a hairdressers account for me for people going, "Oh my god, I can't believe what that Liam Payne's done this week. What's he done now?" You know, I get that. But for Corona, we don't need to be going, "Oh yeah, have you read the thing about this new variant that's come from over the border? Yeah, I can't believe it." Like, someone from America phoned me the other night and they're like, "Oh, you're going to be able to come here soon?" I'm like, "No I ain't." But we don't—none of us know, we're all confused because we're being spouted fear. Which I just think's terrible. I just don't get it.
Social media doesn't help either because there's screenshots knocking around WhatsApp groups saying all sorts—
Yeah, I mean, as much as this technology advancing on us, it's like this slow road. I mean, it's almost like the coins thing at the moment with the Bitcoins. Like, there's some coins that are actually seriously there to do a job and then there's like the "Fuck Elon Musk" coin which does nothing but just disrespect Elon Musk. And it’s worth like 5 billion! It’s actually nuts.
You said earlier, you made a comment, you said that your partner at the time referring to lockdown. Does that mean you are—
I am indeed.
You're single?
Yep. Me and you both. Where are we going? No, I'm staying to myself. I feel like more than anything at this point, I'm more disappointed in myself for keeping on hurting people. That annoys me. I've just not been very good at relationships. And I know what my pattern of things is with relationships I feel at this point. I'm just not very good at them so I just need to like work on myself first before I put myself onto somebody else.
And I feel that's where I got to my last relationship. I just wasn't giving a very good version of me anymore, that I didn't appreciate and I didn't like being. And I can honestly say that I feel better out of it. I didn't feel good for doing what I did, but it had to happen. I mean, I know it's the corniest way of saying it was best for both of us. Whatever, cool, nice story bro. But it just feels like that.
Very self-aware for you to know that you—
Oh yeah, no, I know I was a problem, so I need to sort myself out. And I already feel good, so it's got me more concentrated and I hope she's happy.
What is it you've discovered about yourself in relationships that you're trying to work on?
Do you know what? I mean, one of our old managers went to therapy from being a manager of One Direction. So you can imagine how that feels. Like the rest of us definitely need some. And for me, most part I was really regressing from therapy because everyone was pushing me into it, which is the worst thing you can do.
Like, it's almost like becoming sober, for instance. You have to want to be sober to start with, not people taking your toys away and you going, "Oh my god." So it kind of felt like that, whereas this time I kind of threw myself into it even though I didn't want—didn't really want to inside, I threw myself into it, made my own choices.
And I think for me, my life's been so controlled to a point: day sheets, security guards, you know, anything and it's all everybody else is dictating puppet master crap over the top of your life. Then you just get to point where it's like you have to take some control back yourself. And until I started to do that with my life, then I was living for everybody else. And I'm a complete people-pleaser anyway. So it was like nothing in my life was about serving myself, which then that just led me in a bad place and finding enjoyment from other stuff that I don't need.
And what did—because I've always considered therapy for a bunch of reasons.
And the thing is, it’s still such like a taboo kind of phrase and thing. And I get it, I do get it. I was on the phone to Louis from my band talking about it today and it's like, there was one moment last week—and I mean, my manager's my best friend, he's been saying to me for a long time, you'll have that one awakening in the middle of it where you'll think about stuff. And I hate words like awakening and I hate this like Hollywood perception of like reflective work. What the fuck is that? You know what I mean?
But I get it, but at the same point, I'm like, I don't know, you keep it for you. But it's like I had this one moment that I found and I was like, oh my god, that's just unlocked so many truths about me. And it was so insignificant, something that happened when I was younger. And it was so, to me it was like a family joke. But now I'm like, oh my god, I've been living my whole life as that character. And yeah, wild, wild, you'll love it.
Scary?
Really scary. Because you don't know what you're going to find. It's like opening a box. No, that's it, it's wild. But I'm so glad that I, one, went through what I went through this year, and two, that you know, I think this year's forced something out of all of us. And for me, it forced me to really look at my life and go, "What the eff are you doing? Like, grow up." And that was the point. I'm still trying to work on that, but—
You said you regressed from therapy?
Yeah, I always turned away from it and I was always like, "Oh, I don't—I don't need therapy. I'll sort myself out." You know, your own worst enemy at that point.
I'm really keen to understand what makes you a difficult—you know, specifically what makes you a difficult person to date. I ask this question because I'm difficult to date.
Oh my god! Do you want me to pull a few people in here? And we've got a special guest coming on down... His best friend... Oh my god, every ex-girlfriend we've got them behind the curtain! Now that would be a weird room. Can you imagine? That drops down and they're all there. Oh my god, "Hi, I dated him for three weeks." That’d be a strange room. I’d be out!
What would they—what would be the consistent theme as to why you're difficult to date, if—
I think my problem—I struggle to be on my own sometimes.
Really?
Yeah, I struggle to be on my own and I think I dive in and out of relationships too quickly. And I've not spent enough time on my own to really learn about myself, if that makes sense. I honestly just need a minute out. I need to check myself.
But I'm really keen. So you needed to spend some time on your own to kind of understand yourself because in a relationship context you find that you kind of you're in and you're out a little bit too much. Is that what you're saying?
Yeah, and I don't know, I think the biggest problem we have, I'm proper perfectionist. Terrible, terrible. So when it comes down to relationships, I'm always trying at the start of the relationship—as we all do—you put out this complete false character. Yes, I might as well go in in costume at this point. I am putting out something that is not there. It's the person that is absent from the room. It's like they tagged team on the way in. "Oh, it's you for this bit, yeah. I'll join in later on."
And I just, yeah, I just need to stop doing that. And then kind of like, one, encompassing someone else's life with your crap rather than like just doing your thing and laying out your stall from the day one. That's my biggest problem in I feel for myself. I don't lay out my stall. I'm like willing to bend to someone else's stall and then I'm annoyed at why they don't like what I like. Amen! So then I'm like, oh okay, but if I just laid out the stall early on and like, "Yeah, I get up at 5:00 AM and go for a run." How are we going to deal with that? So it's either in or it's not. You know what I mean? It's not not to compromise, because some things you'll be like, okay that annoys you, fine. But yeah, for me I don't do that. I lay out a completely different—it's like a Woolworths when you wanted an Argos, you know.
That's so fascinating. I've really debated that, especially recently, because the girl I was into is very into everything that I'm not into. Like, if she's into like horoscopes and like I don't know... Why do we do that? I don't know! So I'm there like looking at horoscopes being like, "No, yeah." Because you're trying to make—spiritual people scare me sometimes. But at the start of a relationship, you become more like them, they become more like you. And then as a couple of weeks, months pass, you just regress to actually who you actually are.
Well, you almost like—I feel like I hide resentments from people sometimes. And I'm like, something annoys me and I'm like, "Oh no, it's fine." But inside I'm thinking, "Jesus Christ, I wish she didn't do that." And then over time I'm like, every little thing starts creeping in. And I did this in my job really badly because I would bend to my job and let my job overtake things that I didn't like doing—video for stuff—and rather than going no, until one day I just was like, I hate everything.
And now it's almost gone back the other way. Now I've had this little reset that like I'm starting to call people in to do what I want to do rather than bending to everybody else's stuff. You know, in this—you'll probably experience the same—but in this you're pulled every which way, you know. And it's always about impressing whoever's behind the lens or whoever's in the audience. So I find I'll fill conversations with crap that I'm saying that doesn't really help me because I'll go home thinking, "Why the hell did I say that? Like now I'm that guy? Oh my god!" And then it's like but I was saying it because I thought it would entertain the other person. It wasn't about me. Stupid.
It's really fascinating that you're so self-aware of all these forces at play because it feels like you've spent a long time really analyzing and looking at your behavior.
But I think that can have its benefits and it can have its problems as well. I think I'm like over-critical at points, but you know, you can't win everything.
Being a perfectionist?
Yeah, it's an issue.
How—talk to me about what that means specifically in your life, in work, in relationships? Steve? Steve's his manager who's sat behind the camera. I feel like we should pull up a chair! I know! You know what I love about this is that Steve—my fans think that Steve's like doing something to me. They're always like "Liberty for Liam! He always looks for Steve!" But it's only because I like him! It's not because he's harming me as a person. There’s like a hashtag #LibertyForLiam, like they think I'm like some like prison child. There’s going to be all these other people who are just listening on the audio and thinking you're calling my name! "Steve!"
So my one thing I really got into over lockdown was art and drawing. Ooh, interesting. Something I've done since I was younger and the point was find something to do that doesn't make you money was the whole point of the exercise. I was like, "Okay, cool, drawing." And I said to the person who gave me the advice at the time, I was like, "I guarantee this turns into something." Hold for later on in the conversation.
So I started drawing. But then what I found was I was so bad at starting the task, blank sheet of paper and all that, because I was so worried about what might come out that I was like—I'd sit there like, if something's not quite right I like—it can ruin my day in a drawing. If something goes wrong and it’s not quite right, I’m like, "Oh my god, I hate it." That’s the kind of thing.
And how did that go? Drawing?
Okay. I mean, the thing is once I got started and got onto some stuff, but then it was like sometimes in that respect then I was drinking to draw pictures because I was so in my own freaking way. And it's the same writing songs as well. You can do the same thing with everything. You can trade out all that crap and it's like that's why, you know, people might smoke a bit or do whatever when they make a track. But it's all about getting out your own way. And I feel like now I feel much more—like I know who I am and I know what I want to do so I don't need to be in my own way. I’m going to go, you know, instead—I don't need these additives. They only make me worse anyway.
In the long run, right?
Oh my god, yeah! Today it might help, but tomorrow it's going to cause problems.
And are you still drinking? Or have you—
No, not at all. No, no, no. I've been sober just over a month now, I think it is.
My business partner, he when we started the business became an alcoholic about three, four years in because it was just too tough. And then he had like severe suicidal ideation. He actually didn't tell me at the time, and this is why when I was reading about your story I could relate to so much of it because he didn't say what he was going through to me, I didn't say it to him, and then it was like after we'd sold the business that he was like, "I used to stand on the train platforms and think about jumping in front of the train."
And I was like—and he never told me. And there was—but there was—and you don't—I didn't know what alcoholism or really mental health was at the time. But I'd go downstairs 3:00 AM in the morning and I'd open up the laundry room and he's in there with a bottle of wine at 3:00 AM. The lights are off and he's just drinking it sat on the clothes. I'm like, "Get off my fucking clothes!" I'm joking. No, I was like, "What the hell is going on?" But you know, and I read similar sort of story or narratives in your story where, you know, you were having moments of that kind of like ideation. You were having moments of suicidal ideation and—
Yeah, I mean, there’s some stuff that I've definitely like never, never spoken about to do with it that was really, really, really severe. And it was a problem. And it was only until I saw myself after that I was like, right I need to fix myself. There was a few pictures of me on a boat and I’m all like bloated out and I call it "pills and booze face." And I was like this, like my face was just like 10 times more than it is now. And I just didn't like myself very much then I made a change.
And the same thing happened this year with that sort of thing as well. But the problem we had in the band—and I don't blame anybody for this, I don't want to seem like I'm whining or moaning about "Oh my god look at my life," whatever. But it feels to me like when we were in the band, the best way to secure us because of how big it got was just lock us in our rooms. And of course, what's in the room? Mini bar. So at a certain point, I thought, well I'm going to have a party for one. And that just seemed to carry on throughout many years of my life.
And then you look back, how long you been drinking and stuff for? You're like, "Jesus Christ, that's a long time," even for someone who's, you know, as young as I was. That was wild. But it was like the only way you could get frustration out in the day or being in trouble—trapped. And you know, I spoke about to somebody about this and in child development, you know, as a teen the one thing you need is freedom to make choices and freedom to do stuff. And it was the one thing that although we could do anything we wanted it seemed from the outside, we were always locked in a room at night. And then it would be car, hotel room, stage, sing, locked.
So it was like they pulled the dust cloth off, let us out for a minute and we're like "Woohoo!" and then it's like back underneath and I'm like—
It’s so crazy because you're right, the public will think the absolute opposite. We think One Direction, those guys have got total freedom. All the money in the world, they can do anything. Everyone’s, you know, in their nine-to-five jobs just thinking, "I'd love to have that level of freedom that Liam Payne has to do anything." But you can't do anything, right? It’s the opposite?
No, I mean because we were young—I mean I actually wanted to speak to you about this then as well because obviously you've reached stratospheric heights at a young age. It's like what I found was I didn't know I was the boss until a long—until like a few months ago. I still don't even feel like I am now, like I'm such a child. And everyone I work with is like older than me and wiser than me and I'm like, "What the hell am I doing here with these people?"
So it's like you, you know, when we were 17, I thought the security guard was like in charge of me. Like I was like, "Oh, can we leave the room?" "No." "Oh okay, then, not to worry, I'll just stay here." That's what it was like. So I didn't know what the hell I was doing. You know what I mean? It's like and no one—there's no guidebook. They don't give you a little DVD on the way in saying "Here you are, you're a pop star, this is what you've got to do." So I'm like in the room like, what are we allowed to leave? And then eventually that becomes like an angry person. And I was. Because there were points where it was toxic and it was difficult. Don't get me wrong, we had the best time ever. We did. But there were moments where through, you know, I mean there's a big movement on it at the moment and people overworking and—like you don't realize you have a choice at that point. But in those shows, sometimes they don't give you the choice because you want the dream. But you have to realize there is a sacrifice for that. You know?
Everything, what I've come to learn, everything in life, all the good shit comes with a cost.
Oh!
And I've learned just from my own experience, like my success—very different from yours, we went very different paths—but came with a clear cost. Because you can't go from being a 18-year-old kid that's like nicking Chicago Town pizzas to feed himself to being—to building a company worth 300 million within six, seven years—
What a great sentence that was, by the way!
I could—like I was a fucking loser—like loner. Like I was in my room for summers upon summers on my own for just, you know, because I could—A, my parents weren't talking to me, they said, "Don't call us until you go back to university." Years on my—so I wasn't speaking to my family. No friends because I couldn't even afford to see them. That was the cost for me. And what that made is someone who, again, isn't very social. On the weekends, I spend 99% of my time alone. And people are like, "Oh my god, I'd love to be..." I'm like, well, and then—and then I have the same thing you have, which is my brain is always has a thousand tabs open. And I can't just go and sit on a sun lounger and tan. Like tan? What's my brain going to do then? Sitting in the bath's one of my worst ones as well.
But that's it, you're right. And you know what, like think about someone as simple as someone that like plays guitar. The amount of time you have to spend alone with that instrument, you're going to be missing a couple of other things that happen in life. Exactly! And that's what it's like. Exactly. And that was for us as teens growing up in—and you know, I think people, like I said, I started at 14. That's nuts. Like I was in my school, I remember very clearly the moment that the like X Factor like moment happened when I was—when I was younger. And I was playing football on a field and we had an all-girls school right next door to us. So I'm just playing football like a normal day. I've had a few like people like shout me out in the street where I was like, cool I'm, you know, 14 years old. The whole school from the other school is on the fence.
You're joking!
At first, how does it feel? It was wild. But what the people don't—Yeah, it was amazing. I was like—I went from like zero to like I was the, you know... The thing is I always say to people, but it—I wasn't world-famous when I was 14, but I was famous within my world. So it's like what I didn't leave Wolverhampton and everybody in Wolverhampton knew who the hell I was so I couldn't go anywhere. So, you know, and at that point I can't afford a security guard. I'm not special enough to have any of these like additives. I'm still on the 7948 to—to, you know, my little—my little Christian school.
And then what happened over time is, and I you know, people are people. They do what they do, but there was one significant moment for me where I knew that I'd lost it and I wasn't going to go back on X Factor to be in the band, which would have been wild, by the way. I would not have been here right now. But there was a moment I was in a McDonald's with like a new girlfriend I had at the time and it had been two years since the show. And I noticed my shows decreased in number, decreased in capacity, and decreased in wages. So I was like down and out at this point. So I've had fame and lost it. And I'm like nearly 16 years old.
So that's difficult to deal with anyway at that age. And then I'm in McDonald's and because everyone still knows who I am, I'm sat there and I literally remember about to take a bite of this nice juicy burger, someone on the stairs goes, "X Factor reject!" and the whole restaurant looks at me, right? I'm 15 years old. And it was just horrible. What a scumbag thing to say! I know, but it was like that's—that's the thing. It's like it was almost like a shout-out to say, "Oh, you think you're special, but you're still here." In the most Wolverhampton—
I guess you've got to understand where that comes from, though, from that person. What's going on in their—
Well, someone said to me today, it's not what you do, it's what's happened to you. Which I thought was quite—I like that. So tell me what happens from there. So you're—I don't want to go too much into the—because I know you get asked this stuff all the time. So we don't want to go over old tracks. But that was your first sort of experience with fame. You then kind of—you feel it declining. Ice Cube says some stuff to you in the McDonald's. Life—life carries on.
And then yeah, on the point of—because I really want to get to this—I know you're working on this NFT project. And it's based around this feeling of being—it's based around the idea. This isn't—it was a—it was like a—I want to call it a syndrome. I don't know what it was. Someone told me something about fame. You enter fame the age you leave—you leave fame the age you entered it.
So for me that was 14, right? So I'm screwed. Like I'm the 14-year-old forever child. So that was always a big fear of mine that I have to grow properly. Now from what One Direction gave me, I grew massively in some respects, to the point that you—I mean, your own experiences—when you have conversations about business deals and I'm the director of a company—like I was a director of a half-a-billion-dollar industry at 22. And I'm like, what the hell does that mean? All it meant was I got to sign 10 times more forms than anybody else. Wild, right?
So but then in other things, like if I'm trying to pay car insurance, I'm useless. So then you don't grow in other aspects of your life because you have other people do crap for you. Like picking up my post? I’m the worst person in the world! I could—I just forget about it, you know. That must leave you open to be—to be taken advantage of, right? Because they know that there's some things you don't know. Like you were saying with the security person was—Oh yeah, 100%. Yeah, that's it. And you're—you're deluded in your growth of whatever.
But this is where the NFT idea kind of came from. And it—it first started as this—this little drawing that I did. And I wanted to make my own character. Because I was like, I'm really good at drawing, but we have printers for that. I don't need to be a printer. So then I was like, I need to make something. So I made this like ethereal creature that was—I wanted to 3D print and stick in a—like crystal glass box. And the idea is that he's depressed, that he's—it's like a wasp in a beer glass type thing. Ah, okay. Magical creature, can't get out sort of thing.
So then we kind of came up with this "Puer Aeternus" idea around fame and what does that lead to. And for me, the way it speaks to me and the way that art speaks to me is that I was afraid of the idea of losing—you know, having—keeping the child with me. I was trying to—he was like a monkey on my back trying to get rid of him. Whereas for now, the idea for me is more based around, you know, how do I enjoy that?
Because what I love when I see my son is that he can be whatever he wants in that moment. You know, I'll be over the house and he's like, "You're a bad guy, I'm a good guy." And I'm like, "That's great." And then the next day he's one of them girls from Frozen. "No, no, I'm doing this, it's magic powers today," and I'm like, "Wow." Like, we lose that. And that's a lot of my problem. When I'm sitting doing a task or whatever, the belief system in me has been trodden on through life that much that now I've forgotten about that. They have the ability to do whatever the hell they want. So why would you ever want to lose the child within you in that sense? Wow.
And that's coming out as an NFT soon?
Mhm, coming out as an NFT in like two weeks, I think. It’s quite scary. It’s wild because I just made it—I made it one day in lockdown and then sent it to my manager. And we enjoyed the pieces it was, but then it just kind of grew into this thing at the same time that NFTs were growing. Right. As a thing. I mean, have—how many people ask you what NFTs are by the way?
So many of them. A lot of people. Like I'll get DMs all the time and you know, I'll try and describe what it is but—I think if you say something with enough conviction people just believe it anyway. So I'm like, "You know broccoli? Yeah, you're nicking it." I'll just say anything. I know what it is, I've studied it, I'm working on a few projects at the moment with NFTs. But I'm just, you know, with all these emerging technologies and whenever something's new, I'm kind of like probably a little bit like you in Christian—I know you're very, very entrepreneurial and investing a lot now. I just want to be in there like a sponge. So I want like a—a flag in there just so I can learn. So yeah.
Well, I mean, I think that's a common misconception about this sort of thing as well is that you always come up with the idea that's coming to you rather than like you say being that sponge in the middle of the room. If you're not part of the million-dollar conversation, you were never part of the fucking conversation. And that's literally it. It's like be in the moment. Like rather than trying to make decisions or you just have to learn about that stuff. And you don't have to know everything. You just have to know someone that does know something. You know what I mean?
It's like the thing as you get older, I think the wildest thing is that people—those phrases that they used to say to you as a kid. Like when I had my child, my mom saying to me, "Oh like, you're growing up so quickly, like blink and you'll miss it." And like you're a kid, you're like, "Yeah, I'm six, like chill out." But then as you get older, you're like watching it and I watch my son grow and I'm like, oh my god. Like he's telling me off now! They grow up so fast! My niece—I mean I've got a child of my own according to the Daily Mail—but my niece just like this. Like where did you get those legs from?
I've been teaching mine to swim. I mean, we had a really good conversation the other day and it's like it's a whole new learning experience. Once again, there's no handbook and you're just like out there on your own and I still feel like a child in so many ways, as you've learned from my NFT. But I'm watching him and like I played him a trailer, a movie trailer. It was this simple: I played him a trailer for a thing and we watched it. And we both liked it. "Let's stick that on." It was this Disney's Raya and the Dragon thing. It was about you! You and your new-found friend Raya! The NBC one!
And so we sat there and then I turned the film on and the first shot of the film was from the trailer. He's going, "Why are you playing this again?" And I'm going, "No, no, no, it was—it was we watched a—a trailer." "No, but why is it on the TV again?" And it kept like bits kept flashing and I'm like, oh my god, this is not helping me. So then I'm like, okay, let me—how do I explain this? I was like, you know like if we like have a plate of food and like I feed you a little bit and then you go "Ugh" and you don't want it and then I take it away? Or if I feed you some and you go "Oh yeah" and I give you the whole thing? I was like, "That's like this." And then he's going, "Yeah, but why are we watching it again?" Oh no!
You must—do you get scared as a dad about doing the wrong thing or the right thing? Because you say there's no handbook. So you're like, if I feed him this or if I say this, he's going to start calling—saying the C-word at school. Like I don't—
Oh, when he did swear once I was happy I wasn't around for it because I couldn't be blamed. And there’s a way to root out, to find out whose swear word it is. Because it wasn't a combination I would use! So I knew it wasn't me! Mommy! Who was it? Who was it? We won't go into that.
You said—I don't normally loop back, but there was something you said which—which again, my mind thought, "Oh that's really intriguing." Is you said that you weren't going to reapply for the X Factor potentially. Where do you think you'd be—and I'm going to ask you various iterations of this question—where do you think you'd be in your life now if you hadn't have applied for the X Factor?
So you want the business plan! That’s what you—that’s what you really want to hear! You want to hear the—Yeah, you know. Okay, I'll lay it out for you. This was—this was actually my like plan B system. I was such a weird, strange child. So I got a job at the same time—this is really wild—work experience week at school. My dad worked at a factory and I was always obsessed. I was like, "This is adult LEGO," and he built aeroplanes. I was like, "This is amazing, I'm going to do that."
So I went and I built aeroplanes and they had like a little collection for me at the end and I did like 400 quid. And everyone I was like, "What did you get paid for your work experience?" Everyone was like, "Nothing." I was like, "Oh I got like 500 quid!" But in the middle of my work experience, I went on X Factor. So it was almost like I was trialing my two lives. Almost like a—what's that Sliding Doors film or whatever it's called? A Butterfly Effect or something like that.
So my thing was I'd got a job and secured one there for an apprenticeship, which was like 22,000 a year or something. And then I was like, right, I know my sister paid 60 pound board at the house. So if I just like board at my parent's house, it's 60 pound in fees, then I can save up with the other money enough to buy my first house and then rent it out. Then I was going to collect the rent, buy another one and then move into that one. And then it was almost like a conveyor belt system.
Nice! You had it all planned out!
I had it ready to go. And then X Factor ruined—I mean you say your—your favorite TV program was Dragon's Den. Mine was—I watched Help My House Is Falling Down and Location, Location, Location and stuff like that when I was a kid. I was like obsessed. Yeah. And then funnily enough my manager does pro—loads of properties.
Are you into property?
I love property. Really? I—I wasn't very good at the start but I'm getting better.
You need to teach me some stuff because I have zero properties. I’m renting this place.
I was going to say to you, with um, when you do a show like X Factor, a lot of the sort of people that come out the other end of these shows often say—especially when I mean very few have had the success that you've had, right? But I can imagine, and I think I've—I think I might have read this somewhere before maybe from Little Mix is you—you feel somewhere in you that you still have something to prove.
100%. 100%.
Talk to me about that. Because your success was is just stratospheric. It’s like in a league of its own. It’s wild. To hear that you still feel like you still have something to prove is surprising.
Well, I mean I think there's a problem that we as people, we all want something that we feel like we made. But the older I get and the more things I'm like privy to, you don't really make anything on your own ever. Like I think there's just about Ed Sheeran writes on his own and even he doesn't write music on his own. So it's like for one that feels a little bit like that because you were in the band and I suppose for each of us as members we've wanted to see what we could do.
And I you know, I'm really happy with my success I've had so far. What I don't know is how much of this idea was mine to go with as the being the music career. You know, you worry about like the life that you might have missed "Oh I was going to do this," whatever. Like I always quite liked the idea of the army as a kid. That was something I definitely wanted to do. SAS. Yeah, I love the idea of the army. And boxing’s another one. I mean I've been fortunate to have a go at a bunch of fun stuff.
But yeah, I think you always feel like you have something to prove. And I think at the end of the day you're just—you're only really proving it to yourself because no one else really cares. Everyone else just looks at you as what it is. And it's not that you want to beat your brand because no one will beat One Direction. Not one of us in our lifetimes. In another lifetime someone might—might crack something. I mean BTS have had a really good go at it today, they’ve done really, really well. But we were like the new wave of the Beatles. And even still people didn't say we beat the Beatles. You know what I mean? You’re never going to—it's a different era. Exactly. And that's—that's what happened with our fame as well. We were just that of this era. Same for Justin Bieber, right? Who the hell is beating that run? Come on. They won't, someone will be different. Exactly, exactly. So it's just like I think in the end it's you're only like fighting against yourself. I sound like Rocky Balboa now.
I'm really intrigued by all of that because you also have these five—so you have five band members that all go off and do their own solo careers. And I always—are you—do you compete against each other? Do you try and stay out of each other's lanes? Are you thinking about, "Oh my god, I don't want to be seen as doing, you know, what this person is doing?"
I think we did compete with each other at a point. But I think it's all fairly like laid out as it is now and we've all had our success in completely different areas. And also musically we didn't really go down the same route. I think Harry—Harry's done amazing, you know. I mean first album he had the one song off which did really, really well. And then his second album, he found himself. And that—that is your awakening as an artist, that's when it really clicks. I don't feel like I've had that moment within me yet. I've written some songs recently that I'm really proud of and happy with but I don't feel like I've had that moment yet. "Strip That Down" came out and it—we did a billion streams and I could have never ever asked for that in a million years. But when I was making "Strip That Down," I was a box of frogs. I was nuts. I was wild! I didn't know what the hell was going on. And also, I didn't know what—what the, you know, the hot potato I just got landed on me. "Oh, you've just done a billion streams" and it's like it literally is like hot potato. One minute it’s here, then the next minute it’s gone.
So you know, I'm excited to see what the next—the next six months of this brings, you know. I'm excited to see—to see we have some—a really cool song in the pipeline, which is really exciting. Really exciting. And the song is one of the first ones I've actually written myself—with some other people, I didn't write by myself—but it's yeah, the first one I've really liked. And I think I got so used to carting around other people's songs and not embedding myself creatively in what I do because I was scared to find out who I was.
It’s almost like—that's the thing when you're selling yourself, you have to know what the hell you're selling. And I'm, you know, I'm sure most people wake up every day going, "I don't know what the fuck is going on." And you have to fail to find that out, right? Yeah, 100%. Because you're going to have to try some shit and experiment—Oh my god, and it's like—so say like you're like geeky kind of growing phase between say 16 to 21 if you're lucky. Might last a bit longer if you're shit. You—I did that in front of everyone. And there’s some terrible outfits. There’s some terrible haircuts. You know, and that stuff was there forever. I've got away with a few haircuts! I feel like you've had some great ones. The short haircut I think not a lot of people can pull that off. I've got a bit of like a melon head thing at the back so I can't—I can't do that. People think I'm an alien. But no, you've had some good haircuts, I've got to be honest.
When I—I read something about "Strip That Down," you said that you were almost scared of the success just as much as scared of the failure.
Oh man, I mean no one trains you for the moment it goes right, right?
So you leave One Direction, you've got your big sort of debut single coming up and you're scared of the success. Why?
If it does really well, I was worried because I know what that can bring to you.
What can it bring?
Well, I—I finished a day—one of the days that stuck out for me in the last few years where I did a whole day's promo in New York. And on the nighttime, I was on, I think it was Andy Cohen's show or something and they had a drinking game. And someone asked me a question about one of my ex-girlfriends and I did not want to divulge what the hell went down. And it was a drinking game so I was like—they were like, "We can fill it with water," but me being me was like, "No, if I'm playing, I'm playing for real." So I'm like necking tequila! Boom, and I'm wasted. I get home at half past one. Bear in mind I've started at like, I want to say 8:00 in the morning. I was then asleep and I woke up at half past three for vocal training to be in Central Park at seven—for grooming at five and in Central Park for 7:00. Bear in mind I went to bed at half past one.
So I know what it can bring and that—that crap will send you insane. I don't remember some days I was here. Like that will send you round the bend. But it's the game, man. You—if you want it, if you want it, it's out there for you. You can go ahead and take it. But it's like you have to be a workhorse to want to—to do this. And I think a lot of artists would say that coming out of it. But I don't think it's, you know, it's unfortunate the demand in our industry and also the demand of—of how quickly people receive information now. You know, our 30-second time like goldfish timespan that we've got now. I mean I definitely have that. I'm the worst.
And it went really, really fucking well. It went really well and then it was—you know, the problem we had was it was like having a baby. The thing was nine months to get the number one in America. So it took nine months to work the record just to get the number one. So if you can imagine singing the same song every day for nine months and having like one or two songs to back it up with, it was like pretty—like I'm sure somewhere that must be like put down as a method of torture. Yeah, I can imagine. You must—Self-harm! But this is the job, man. And it's like, listen, the first few shows of anything are amazing and then after a while it's like you'll find bits that will like grate on you and whatever else. But you know, I've—I've been so lucky to have the career that I've had and and you know, let's hope for more of that. That's what I think at this point. But it's learning how to deal and channel that.
And what's your relationship like with the rest of the boys? I'm sure you get asked this all the time. But it—I imagine it evolves.
Great with most of them. Um, I think everybody's settling into themselves at this point. I know I am for sure. Um, I had a lovely phone call from Harry the other day who was checking in on me and I mean, it's almost like some people have got sixth sense for you right that you're going through something. So they'll check in. And he—he was very much like that. He’s a lovely, lovely boy. I love him to pieces. And then um, Louis I—I speak to a lot. Um, and we've always had a really, really close connection. And the funny thing for us—I mean I've said this a lot—but we—we hated each other at the start! But it's almost the people that you grow closest to, you know.
And Niall—I'll say it because he brought it up quite recently—but the, you know, the whole thing of the talk about the reunion. Like for me, I'd rather we talked about it sooner rather than later. Because I don't want to—it's tough touring—touring that—that sort of a record. And—and I enjoyed touring for what I enjoyed it for but there's parts of it that really, really fucked me up, man, and in a sense I'll be honest with you. Um, but none of us talk about it. It’s like taboo subjects. Like, "Oh, we can't get back together." "What do you mean?" "Oh my god, like us in the same room? What the fuck is that about?"
What fucked you up about touring?
My dad said it from day one: lonely hotel rooms, man. Getting locked in that room is not fun when you've been exposed to—I mean I've come off gigs before... I did a gig in—in Dubai. I was really worried no one was going to show up. It was one of my first solo gigs by myself. And I suppose I'm uber-self-critical, I'm always like, "I don't know what the hell is going on." So I get to this park and the capacity for the park is like—you've never seen. I'm looking at like a park. I'm like, "What the hell?" And I'm thinking we're getting paid a lot of money to be here, this is going to be really embarrassing if no one shows up. And I don't know anybody in Dubai. Like I can't even call 10 friends to be here! So I'm like at dinner I'm not eating my food and whatever else.
Then I get back to the gig and there's people chanting and going "Liam! Liam!" and I'm like, "Okay, there's people here. Oh my god, I can chill." I get out there and I'm like awash with these—the sea of people. And I noticed the sound system's hella quiet behind me. I’m like, this isn’t making any sense. I get through the gig and you autopilot the hell out of it. When I got off stage, they’re like, "Oh you broke a record! You're on a list with Michael Jackson!" It was 110,000 people. I'm like... And I was like—sh—you know, I got back to my hotel room and I was sat in my room on—on a chair like this. And I was about to go to the Maldives with—with Cheryl and Bear and I'm like, "I don't think I can go to the Maldives right now. I can't move off this chair."
How did you feel on that chair?
Shocked. Why? Like for—to go from like "I don't know who's going to be here" to then—I looked on the thing and it's like Oasis, Robbie Williams, all these amazing—you know, AC/DC, all these outdoor gigs, amazing outdoor gigs. And then just me and Michael Jackson. And he's in there like three or four times. He—you know, he is the list. But I was on the same list. I'm like, "What the..."
Can't be easy. Like going back to that hotel room.
It was wild. And it just—it's just muted. It's almost like you know like in that—in a movie where they throw a grenade and it goes "Pfft" and then everyone's like... That's what it feels like! And you're like, oh my god, like your adrenaline running through you. Yeah.
Because I've done—I've done 9,000 and 15... I did 15,000 in Sao Paulo, me and I did a talk with Obama, that's me name-dropping! Oh wow! But um, but—they're not chanting! They’re all very quiet. I mean they clap at the end, but—but they don't... But it—how it make you feel? You just feel like a different...
But I—I can completely relate because I—I was thinking last year, I lived in New York City, but I was—I was speaking around the world 50 weeks of the year. So I was home four weeks and yeah, I go back to the hotel room, sometimes, you know, I haven't eaten because of the adrenaline. And it's very lonely and you're like, "Well, YouTube and Room Service?" Yeah! "What do I do now?" Yeah, but 110,000 people screaming your name and you're performing—Wild! I had the prince or the king or the something of Dubai dancing to "Strip That Down." Oh wow! Need to get that on tape! In a country where you conveniently can't strip that down! Which I thought was a bit of a move! But he was up dancing, you know?
So we talk—we were talking about the touring here. The touring part, really—many strips with the hotel rooms. Yeah. A return of 1D? Yeah. I mean I—I saw like a thing of of people being like angry at X Factor this last few weeks. And I wanted to say something about it but I didn't really know what to say on my terms. Because I feel like there's obviously going to be some people in there who are bitter. And you sign up for this show, you don't really know what the hell you're getting yourself into.
But I would agree and I—we've actually gone out of our way as a team to make this possible for me. And I think a record label just bought into the idea of what we've made. And I was the guinea pig, right? So pick the craziest person in the room to start with! That’s a good—good place to start. And we made this—this thing to like care for people in the industry. Because we don't have unions. We don't have people to look after us. And I was a kid. You know, I was a child when this happened to me. And I'm very fortunate to still be here today to be able to tell this story. But for most people, they feel abused or or or something in some sense. So I just think that there need—there needs to be a self-care sys—a care system within these shows. Because if they're going to move people through these shows and use them to make television, they can't just like let them off afterwards.
And I could never watch X Factor because I was always heartbroken because I'd been the guy who made it really far and then got let go. And it ruined me. When I was 14, I was—shit at school, depressed, like—like it ruined me at one point. But I've also then been the guy who... I think my dad actually came out and said it in a thing we were filming once. He was like, "You've been told no more than any winning X Factor contestant" or like any successful X Factor... I'm like, "Thanks dad! Great to know!" What an unusual experience. Wild!
If you were to tour again, would you do it differently? Would you have—
I don't actually even know how I would tour again. I—I really want to and like I want to put—I—I always said throughout this solo career I'd let my songbook speak to me. And I don't think my songbook has necessarily spoken to me enough to get me off my ass to go somewhere yet. I only became a solo artist because I had "Strip That Down." I wasn't going to do it. I was going to leave it alone. Music? Yeah, I was going to leave it hell alone. I was like, "I've survived once, thank you very much." But now I'm back in. Why? Because the song—I knew it was right. It felt right with the song. Whereas I haven't had that. And this—this year the song that we have, I feel really right about. So I would rather let the music do the talking than me come out and try and force it.
I mean there's such a fast-moving industry these days, it's one of the biggest races in the world, right? If we had a start line for how many musicians there are trying to make it right now and who's going to outwork the other one, we’d need a very big track. Um, so it's just kind of got to that place that we don't need any more useless music in the world. In my eyes, it needs to mean something.
You said something, you know, in the previous answer that you've said online, which is that you're lucky to be here. One of the most moving things I've ever seen, which really, honestly, disturbed me and stayed with me my entire life, was that Avicii documentary and the way that his management were pushing him and he had social anxiety and... Oh god, it just haunts me.
You know what? With those things... I mean I've spoken to managers who've lost people in different—and and you know, I've definitely put strain on a lot of people in my life in the past. You see it from a completely different perspective. I don't like talking about—you know, I think it's hard—it's just as hard for the team around you at points as it is for you. Because we didn't all know how the hell we got here. Everyone's kind of looking around like, "We don't really know how the hell we got here." So where's the next move? And there's always someone who will pull you through. I've been very, very fortunate now with the people that I had to pull me through my—my bits.
Um, and it's, you know, unfortunate. That's why I say this care system is so important, right? We—music is the lifeblood of a lot of our things. It’s the background to our movie scenes when we're sat in the back of the car looking longfully out the window. But then we don't want to look after the thing that's kind of feeding us that much. You know what I mean? So I think for artists in the sense, they do need that. I feel that it doesn't need to get lost in translation in other things. It genuinely needs to be a care system. But then everyone's over-therapy these days in that sense anyway. But it's like if you want it, it should be available. You know?
Is there—was there a moment where you look back and say that was the lowest moment for me? That was the pivotal moment?
I had a few of them. I was worried how far my rock bottom was going to be. Where's rock bottom for me? And you would never have seen it. I'm very good at hiding it. No one would have ever seen it. But rock bottom... I mean I don't even know if I hit it yet. You know what I mean? I feel like—it’s like one of those little graphs you see when it's like "Oh, have we hit the—the, you know... like support, the market support?" Yeah, we there? Is it the support level? Oh my god! You know? It’s the same thing. So it feels like I can either make that choice now and pick my last moment as my rock bottom or I can make a new one and make a whole new low. That's my choice.
You—you said online that you were—you had previously been masking your emotions and feelings. And this was something that you were trying to—trying to get over. Um, said you tried to learn to deal with your emotions instead of masking them. How important has that been?
This is something I really struggle with, because I'll tell you why. Because I was CEO of a company, you know, 27 years old, 26, 27 years old, 700 employees, and—that’s wild! Fucking wild. It was. All around the world these adults that are double my age. And I have to be—right? My business partner, he'll tell you he's been on the podcast, he fell away, right? Alcoholic, put on all this weight, depressive, anxiety, fell away. So I'm carrying him, because I need—because we're co-founders, we're seen as a unit. So when he's out in the street—and you know, I don't—he won't mind me saying this—because he's been drinking all day with the team and he's stealing wine bottles off other people's tables. Just total strangers! He’s doing things in public which you'd get arrested for, with parts of his body that I'm not going to talk about. When he's doing those things, I'm getting a phone call. I'm 26 and I have to not only manage him—my business partner—but then I'm having to manage all the impact that's had on all of our employees. And I felt that I could never talk or be vulnerable.
You—the thing I find so—But that's why I said it's not—people don't realize it's not just, you know, and what happened to Avicii is terrible, by the way. And I haven't seen the documentary. I didn't watch it. I actually knew someone who knew who worked with him. He wrote with me as well. And he said that what he saw was going on was not good. But for the most part for a lot of these people, there's usually somebody in there that's not very good. But everyone else is trying to help and you don't see the effect it's having on them as well. But you live and die by the sword. I live and die by my sword. That's it. But the person who's behind trying to pick up the shield to help me, they haven't even got the fucking sword. They’re just diving into battle for you. And that's the difference. You know what I mean? It’s like people miss out on that bit. So it’s never just on that person. You know what I mean? A lot of my stuff for—you know, if I hadn't had the help I had, I—I don't know where the hell I'd be right now. So that's a credit to you in a sense.
It's um, it's super, super tough. I think with um, the bit that I really respect you for though is you're very open about it. You—you talk about it. You talk about going to therapy, you talk about your lows, you talk about being unsure if you would even be here. And that's going to do a lot of good for a lot of people.
I hope so. I mean at the—the bit—like the worst bit for me is I think it's seen so much as a tool these days to hide behind a point. And for me, it's never about that situation. Like I'm just telling you as—as what it is. And and it's—it's that bit where I think like I say, I don't want any of this to get lost in translation. I am not one percent moaning about my life. I love—I love my life at the minute. My life's great! It’s had its ups, it’s had its downs, but it's, you know... Yeah, I think I'd rather talk about it and it's therapeutic for me. And this has been a really good chat, by the way. This is a cool chat. I like this chat a lot. There's been some shit ones, let me tell you! I can imagine!
No because I'm genuinely asking you questions that I give a fuck about. Yeah, no that's it. And I'm telling you the thing as if it matters to me, not trying to hide behind some sort of bullshit thing, you know? And like I say, I think there's many people who have this effect on—on therapy and all those things and sobriety. And I ain't saying everybody home by the way should go sober. I ain't telling them to go vegan. I ain't telling them to do whatever. I'm saying this is what I did and it worked pretty okay for me so far, so you know.
You're making a movie? You made a movie? You wrote a movie, right?
I've been working on something for a while and me and Christian spoke about it a few weeks ago. And it's funny that it's based around AA, but I had a really weird AA experience the first time that I went into—
What's AA for anybody that doesn't know?
Alcoholic Anonymous. Um, and I went—my first experience was with Russell Brand. Which if you've seen Get Him to the Greek or any of those other movies, I went to his house and I love Russell.
There's something about that sentence which I can't get over: "My first experience was with Russell Brand."
Okay, I mean yeah, exactly! All right, so I'm in his house, I'm in this dude's house and I've never met him and I've only seen him on the movies and and as a comic and you know, My Booky Wook, I love that stuff and like so I know a lot of things about him. But I'm not—I'm a really shy person when I first move in, I'm like "Oh my god, like..." So he makes me a coffee and we sit talking about our experiences and I've never seen someone look at me the way he looked at me. Like find you a man who looks at you like Russell Brand looks at you when he's listening to your stories! Because he like looks into your soul. I was like, I was born again!
And then we went to this meeting. It was an all-male meeting and there was everything in the meeting from prison guards to ex-soldiers to ex-cons to postmen to bin men to everything and then me and Russell Brand. So I'm like this is the weirdest room I've ever been in my life! We're in like some old like community like church room or whatever. And then he's—he's taking the chair in the room. So my first experience of AA was like the best experience ever! Because it was like he was just doing stand-up! It was unbelievable!
Who was doing stand-up? In an AA meeting?
No, it’s like they—they have one who chairs the—chairs the meeting. And the idea is that if they say, like, "Oh, can you talk about um, relationships and how it's affected by alcohol," then he'll tell the story of his—his right—alcoholism or or you know, narcotics thing and and then you link in from his experience to go "Oh my god, I'm the same as you." And that's how it works. Um, I'm not going to give the whole script away otherwise I'll tell you the whole film! But I—I kind of came up with this film and I actually haven't spoken to Russell about it, which is the first thing I have to do because it was from him that this... obviously I'm in a movie right now. Like and I'm one of the characters and I'm sat here going, "I don't know what the hell I'm doing here, but apparently I'm alcoholic and I've got a problem. Oh my god! What's going on?"
And the walls are closing in. Will Ferrell walks in! Yeah, exactly! The Wolf of Wall Street was in the corner over there and—no it was wild! It was wild. So it—I'm excited about it and I think it's really funny. I showed it one of my friends um, and she was—she really liked it, she laughed a lot at it so we'll see.
What else is—what else is going on in your life in terms of like business and investing and projects and stuff like that? When you think about the direction of travel that you want to take over the next 10 years, which direction do you want to focus on and go in? You're investing tons, you've got your own businesses now. Everyone’s going to say the same thing to you every time you have a interview, they’re going to say "When's the reunion?"
§02Transcript — part 2
I mean I've had wild, my business learning curve from the day I first got my like first check and I went to the manager, I'm like "What do you invest your money in?" because he had the biggest garden in London. I was like, "He’s a good place to start." He had the biggest home garden, which you don't think he does anymore, Steve, do you? Okay, apparently he doesn't anymore, but apparently he did when I was younger, he did. So I'm like trying to ask him like what he invested in. He’s on about gold and whatever else, then you learn about safe haven currencies and all these other things. And then I started to branch out a little bit more, a little bit more.
Um, then I went onto properties which was always the one I wanted to do. And then when I was 19, I nearly bought a fighting agency, which was fun.
A fighting agency?
BAMA. I got bought in to buy BAMA when I was 19. So I roll up to this in my like Burberry coat thinking I'm an absolute badman because I'm about to buy like England's UFC. Oh, okay. Okay, fine. Right? So I go to this arena in Manchester and I'm looking capacity's not great, everything else, but the—I'm looking at all the stuff. And you're a kid. So I'm a kid. And I mean I remember being front row of the fight and some guy behind obviously doesn't like the band very much: "Sit down! Shut up!" whatever else. But every fighter then after got out the ring and shook my hand. And I just kept looking behind thinking, "Do you still want to have something to say? Do you know the guy with the scary clown mask just needs to need that other guy's nose off? Like he's my friend. He’s my motherfucker friend." So I was like, yeah exactly! And um, and then I went met everybody afterwards and I I got in this company, but unfortunately the deal wasn't great. I put it through one of my investors that I have and then it's like people try to catch you out.
And this was always my biggest problem. I—very fortunate to live in some lovely places. And every time someone would show up at my door to do something and the job would cost 500 pound, they would try and charge me 50 grand because the house was big. And I'm like learning early on like... and don't get me wrong, I've spent some money on some stuff I shouldn't have spent money on! You and me both! Um, sh—yeah, I mean I'm not going to go into detail but I lost some money! Like my thing I always say to people is like I will tell you where I lost as much as I tell you where I win! You’ve got to make mistakes though, right? You’re human! 100% and I'm—and like my point is I'm going to do better than whatever my last mistake was anyway. That’s the point. And if I trust myself enough, it won't matter in the long run.
When you think about money, though, you know, you didn't come from money. You didn't come from—back your—your dad when you started I read that your dad had tons of debts and stuff like that and—so you your relationship with money will be very, very different as you've gone over the last decade um than a lot of other people because to you it was probably something that you thought was you built up more when you were younger, right?
Yeah, and I think as a kid growing and especially if you like rap music is what it becomes. A completely different thing. Yeah, rap music made me spend a hell of a lot of money. Um, I would say yeah, I mean I have one of my friends over recently and my family—my dad made decisions in in our house of what was going on and stuff and he did them for the right reasons. So I stand by that and he doesn't need to feel any pain in that whatsoever because he wanted us to go on holiday and go to America and he would bury himself. And I mean he was so stressed, he said at one point in his life he woke up and he couldn't remember his own name because he was so far in debt that he was only covering the interest, which I can't imagine how that feels. I mean it probably feels exactly the same as I feel some days with the other side of it, which is wild and—but we won't get into that.
But at one point in my life, I mean my friend um who's a professional poker player now, but he was quite a rich kid at school because he was like playing poker since he was 13. So when we would go down to—to get breakfast, I couldn't afford it and he'd buy me like 20 P's worth of toast and I couldn't afford it. Nice. Which is wild. So then when you get money... I didn't know my family were poor, but they were fucking—you know we were—we were not in a good place.
So how did that impact your relationship with money when you finally got it? Were you a splurger? Did you you know...
At points, yes on certain stuff I would but not... I'm more of a worrier than I was a splurger. I was like because of where I lived and where I was from I knew it could disappear. So I was always really cautious about protecting what I have and only spending what I earn.
Let’s—money and happiness. Talk to me about the link. A lot of people...
There isn't one. Yeah. It’s a myth. I think the way to think about money and I mean there's a beautiful thing I had as a kid and and when we used to go to church, the woman got a five-pound note out and she said, "Have you ever read a five-pound note?" And I was like, "No I haven't." I was like "Five? No." And she's like, "If you read it, it says 'I promise to pay the bearer of this note five pounds,' so money is promises," which I thought was great.
But if you develop on that and conversations I've had with people, money is—is care and the ability to relax on certain things. Life's going to kick you in the nuts sometimes and you're going to need something to help those around you. So it's never so much been for me about spending money on me and sometimes I have to remind myself to shop! Because I'm terrible. And I'm one of those people who like will go on a shop, fill a basket and then just not do the rest of it. I leave it there. I’m like, "Oh yeah, I feel like I bought something now, that's good." At least I did something for with what I'm working my ass off for! But I'm not like that. So it's like in terms of with things with my family and different things that have happened like my dad's debt for all those different reasons, I'd rather have it on hand and if something god forbid happens to any of us... You know, my family are the last people to ever ask me for anything and I'm the first one to go, "This is why we do what we do," you know?
You have a son, Bear. Beautiful child. Um, he tells you that he's going to apply for X Factor someday.
This is a tricky one. This is a tricky one. I think his mom's hoping he's going to become some like yoga person. His mom's very chill these days.
He says—he says, "I'm getting Instagram and I'm going to go do X Factor." What do you say to him?
I mean he's got the best advice from the parents around him for the long run I guess. But I don't know, I think... Obviously we protected his identity to start off with. And that's not being pretentious or anything other than the fact that I want to give him a chance to be Bear first before he has to be "Oh, your mom and dad are so and so," you know? And I made my choice to be where I was at 14, 15 so I figure he can make his own choice then too. We'll have a good discussion about it, a long discussion because I know what effects that can have as well. Um, but I would never stop him doing something he wanted to do. I’d let him know the risks and I'd tell him what was going to happen, you know? And better that than you know, my parents didn't really ever experience any of the things I've experienced before I got there. They had no idea what I was signing up for. Would they change it? Probably not, but they would change some things that happened in between across the way, I bet. 100%.
So he says he's going to do the show, you give him the disclaimer and the warning. Um, what would you rather he did? If you could, as a dad, you could be that authoritarian and say—if you could choose, would it be to walk in your footsteps?
Something that he enjoyed—enjoyed doing every day. And I mean I say that lightly because I think everything that you do, depending on what kind of person you are, becomes annoying at a point. It doesn't matter what job you do, it's like "Oh my god I really got to do that again," you know. Like my dad, I used to think my dad's job was the best job ever. Like building aeroplanes like adult LEGO, like I said. Whereas my dad's like, "Do not end up in that bloody factory. That's the last thing you're going to do."
Would you want him to follow in your footsteps though?
Uh, no. I hope he’d do it better than I did! Really? Yeah. I don't know, I think um, sometimes you can get lost in the connection part of this game and I think that's always been a difficult thing for me to connect with people because I put so many barriers up before you get to actually what's going on that you you know, it's almost like hurdling them in a way.
Why do you think those barriers are up?
Protection. I think it's protecting people from what's, you know. If you turn up in a disguise every time then you can always blame it on the disguise. The moment you're not wearing one, you got nothing to blame it on.
And what—what is it that your manager over there Steven would know about you that probably... in terms of like what, you know, someone who knows you very well would um say about you that we wouldn't expect just from what we see online? You talk—because you talk a lot about this wearing this mask and every—you know being—wearing a disguise even in your relationships. I'm really trying to understand because we been—we been here maybe now for two hours, whatever. And as time goes on and on and on, you get to know someone a bit better. You know, and then like my barrier goes down a bit, yours goes down a bit, we get more comfortable. And I'm like who is that person behind that that people don't know?
Because I don't know. I mean I think in certain part for me, having to translate it through music is difficult. And I am opinionated to an extent sometimes it can get me in trouble with some shit and I hate that. That really does annoy me because it's like everyone's entitled to—say they want to say about something, right? You can disagree on, you know, whatever. Yeah. But I think for me I hide behind humor a lot. I make everything I can funny. And then that will leave it to not be as—offensive or... Oh okay. Interesting.
I really want to—I really want to get an idea of when you look towards the future professionally. Um, what are the—what is the positioning that Liam Payne is is hoping for? I guess, you know from what you've described for Bear, you just want to be doing things you enjoy.
Yeah, I think so. And I think that's, you know, there's been a slow road up to that point and it's just doing things for the right reasons. I mean, the—we're in a beautiful age right now. You are your own press. Which is actually great for artists if we learn to do it the right way. This whole thing I used to hate was going on and off talk shows, going on and off and doing this and doing everything else that seemed to be for everybody else and it was promoing your record, but then the record bites and you get nothing out of it and it's like everybody else got their five minutes but the record just didn't do what it wanted.
So it's like you know, I want to experiment with the way I promo my record to make sure that the record is taken before I go and half-way round the world going, "Hey, look at this great song!" and then no one hears it. Oh great, that worked well. You know what I mean? But it's almost—you know, I think the music industry and and—listen up people, I think the music industry is in a place where people need to throw out the old—the old, you know, marketing format for these things. And it's almost like when you see companies that try and do TikToks. Don't do it like that because we can see right through what you're doing! You’ve made a TikTok and "Haha we're supposed to laugh" but it's not funny. And it's the same for the music industry. It's like there's a new way that people are promoing things now. You know, Billie Eilish came from a bedroom and did this and and and it's worked out really well, but it wasn't the same format that you used back in 2010. Even on my—I mean the way the industry's changed while I've been in it has been wild and I've only been here—I’ve been here a decade, just over a decade now. But it’s insane! But I just think record labels and and and sometimes people spend budget on stuff that they don't need to do. You have your format, you have your fanbase, grow it organically, properly, not not through you know, the the way we're doing things at the moment because sometimes it's just like I don't know why the hell we're doing this.
Social media? Your relationship with it. Obviously, that’s been my industry for the last decade. Um, good thing, bad thing? What's your relationship with it at the moment?
I think it's good. I think it's a difficult thing to manage. I love the idea of what TikTok does. But for me, I don't want to get sucked into my phone with like watching stuff constantly. And you do, and you need to be on your on your like learning stuff and and you know, the odd funny video or whatever else. But if your 'For You' page is just like funny dogs and—Yeah, it’s wild! Then you're in a "What the hell is going on?" You know, that's what it does to me. I'm like, "Oh god, really?"
So I don't know. It’s um—I've seen a lot of different technology come in and go out of my industry from the time from Twitter. And you know, I honestly think there's a strong case for saying that we owe a little bit of our success to the way Twitter was. Because worldwide trends weren't a thing before One Direction, before One Direction were on X Factor. Whereas on that night we could trend everywhere. And then people would go, "Oh my god, what's this?" So you know, magically, oh the biggest band on X Factor was at the same time Twitter came out. It doesn’t—it's a perfect storm stuff, you know?
Um, so I think it's great. I think we have a funny way, like I say with the coins, that you know, the market's just had the most weird few months of people making HoeCoin, Hug, HoeCoin Plus, HoeCoin Extra, HoeCoin this, and there's 90 of them. And I'm hearing all of my friends going, "Oh did you buy Doggy—Doggy Doodoos 21?" "No, no, no, I bought Star—StarPorn over there!" You know what I mean? I’m like, "What the hell are we doing? We're talking in code!" You know, it's like that but rather than the the technology that works. Ripple, Ethereum. You know, things that have real-world application rather than coins that are "Hey everyone, I made a coin that's about, you know, tripods for cameras."
This tends to happen at the start, I think, of these like exponential bubbles. You get this point...
And then it weeds out the crap. It weeds out the crap. And it’ll all—it feels like what's happened recently to me. Like the markets took a big dip because they're trying to weed out some of the the stupid stuff. And because it's an unregulated thing, it's like but I find that that's with the same with social media. We need to weed out the bad stuff and focus on the good.
A lot of—there's a lot of debate at the moment because of the racism that some football—footballers have experienced. Marcus Rashford did a big post the other day that you know how do we—how do we stop people putting monkey emojis or any kinds of like abuse on—you know because what happ—what I think is happening from a psy—psychological standpoint is they see Liam Payne, they think he is up there on that mountain, that is not a human being. If I throw a rock and I hit, I might get a little bit of attention from him. So they—they pick up a rock and they just throw it.
But that's why I said at the start about bringing people up to your level in a way. But it's not so much for them that they can they can get away with from from from not saying something about that. You know what I mean? I feel they have to speak up about it and it's difficult and we are going through a really fast-moving era with everything at the moment. I mean you wish there was an algorithm that would just beat that right? But they will find some way of spelling it differently and it'll just, you know.
Verify—I think they verify everybody's ID. I think that would kill 99% of it.
Yeah, I when I—I actually thought of a thing for this um for voting. Because voting for me was always a really difficult thing. We all have our iPhones, we have our thumbprint that goes on, why can't we verify via thumbprint to get accounts and then that's on your record? There was that great Black Mirror episode where that woman's going through life trying to get these likes and she's like desperately—you seen that? Yeah, yeah, yeah! "Oh my god, please I need to be in this neighborhood!" "But then no I was a five-star this morning!" "Yeah, but you were just like ah! Oh my god!" "A bit like you—your horrible crap on the way, darling, I'm sorry." But that's what life will eventually be policed by, I imagine in a way.
Speaking of Black Mirror, um I guess this is a strange tangent but um I—when I had Johann Hari on the podcast last week, one of the key themes here is that all this technology and social media has like taken the meaning out of our lives because like dating now happens on these screens, people order their food by like tap tap tap and it shows up at the door. Um, even now with COVID, um we're now working from screens. We used to have an office or, you know, offices we could go to, now it's all screens and it feels like the world is getting more and more social.
I mean what's amazing is we—we were all so worried about technology pushing us away from each other when COVID hit, right? But it was the only thing that saved us, thank god, in the—when COVID did hit. Which I thought said a lot more about technology's good side than it did about the bad side. I mean it's up to you how you use your platform in the end and what you let it do to you. Like I say, I enjoy TikTok, but I watch a few videos and I watch things that people send me. I don't really have a 'For You' page, I don't really go through it constantly. Because there's you know... I mean it's difficult with kids on screens, man. Like I have one and I—I watch him and I'm like, ah I don't really want to like you know... We go—I make him go out and do stuff. And sometimes we fall out, big! We have a row about—really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s not—it's not good. Um, but he's learning with it, you know, and it's the it's—like you say, for all of us we are the guinea pig generation for these things. We’re learning, you know, we're the first part of the civilization to be affected by an algorithm.
You know, what about the people who first experienced hay fever? They figured out the way around that. You know what I mean? It's like for me it seems like we will—we will figure out the right things of it but it's weeding out the bad sides of it and what it does. Like I—I think if your TikTok screen is advice and videos about learning stuff or like stuff that you're actually really interested in and you enjoy, not just random funny crap. Because that's what You've Been Framed was, right? You want to find yourself watching You've Been Framed all day? Really? Because that's what you're doing. Or even worse on Instagram, keeping up with the Kardashians. "Oh look, she's amazing, she's 10 out of 10. Oh and she's rich! Oh her life's perfect, oh look at my life sat here in my boxer shorts eating this pot noodle with my cellulite."
Yeah, but that's such an illusion because I bet—Of course, it's an illusion! It’s an illusion designed to destroy your self-esteem, isn't it? And it’s like yeah. But I also think there's—I think there's a fine line between these—these—these things and and accepting and accepting everybody and all this stuff is—is a given. But I don't think that in the process of that we want to lose the thing to strive for for ourselves. You know, there was a big debate about me on on on Loose Women at one point, which I—I was all right with it, it was okay, I understood what they were saying. But I worked really hard for for what I did in my underwear commercial. You know, and it was—my did overtake my life in certain respects? Yeah, for sure it did. But it was actually an aim of mine, it’s one of the only things I've ever aimed for was to try and do an underwear commercial. So I remember I went to my meeting with the company I was working with and they were like, "No, no, we don't want to do that with you." And I was like, "No, trust me. Just trust me." And they gave—to be fair to them, they put the trust in me. I went and trained my ass off and I got myself where I wanted to be.
But then it was like people worrying about people's self-esteem looking at the picture and whatever else. I get that. But I quite enjoy the idea of looking at someone and being like, "Wow, he's—that's cool, man. Like I—I'm going to go out and get that."
Why did you want an underwear commercial?
I just thought I could do it. I thought I could do it and and I wanted to challenge myself in the gym to—it was, you know... It’s—it's hard to be strictly about looking in the gym and not function. Which that was the bit I battled with myself a little bit. But it's like yeah, I I think, you know, if you want to go out and get it, go out and get it. It’s it’s—but I don't think we should, like I say, in accepting everybody, let's not lose the idea of striving for something as well, though. Because it's all right to say, "Yeah, I'm—I'm perfect." Was it an advert I saw somewhere the other day and I thought, "Are we really that narcissistic that we have to call ourselves perfect for everyone to be okay with with each other?" Like and I like I might get in trouble for saying some of this stuff, but it's just my thought is like I want to teach the next generation to strive for things as much as I want them to feel confident in themselves. But it's like it's almost like being a parent, right? You're going to mess them up somehow. Like if we start saying we're perfect, I guarantee next week they'll be like, "Well, that's not worked out well so let's rewrite the plan on that one." You know? And it's I just think everyone just you know, give each other a break and just go for do what you like.
Have you—have you figured—because it's taken me some time um to try and understand what it is that actually makes me happy. I used to once upon a time when I was broke... this is a big one. I used to—I was going to end on this big question, but I used to think it was like, "Oh I'll get a Lamborghini and then I'll be happy." And like that's why my book's called Happy Sexy Millionaire because I I thought that I wrote on the first page of my diary at 18, I wrote "Range Rover Sport will be my first car, I'll make a million before I'm 25, I'll get a really hot girlfriend and I'll work on my body image." What I meant was I'll get six pack, I just didn't want to write that. And I thought that is the goal of life. I get those things, Range Rover's my first car, I made a million before I was 25 and I'm like, "Where is the confetti?" And if that's not it, then what the fuck is life about?
Oh, I mean what happens when you wake up and every day's a dream? That’ll mess you up! I often have looked for the moment in life where I banged my head and I might be in some sort of comatose dream that I've invented for myself. Like I was that messed up at some point, I was like, "I'm sure this is a simulation, guys. Like I must have made this wall because I can't be here because of where I was yesterday." So it was, you know, there's those wild things that if you let them creep in, they will eff you up bad.
Someone said to me to me quite interesting the other day, our view of what we hunt for as humans has changed. We don't hunt for food anymore, we hunt for success. So it's almost like the target went from animals and corn and food to freaking Lamborghinis and and that sort of stuff. But that's what we strive for now. And like even to the point like you were saying earlier about your—I'm so glad Huel’s here because that supplements your food. Sometimes you're that driven by your drive that you forget you've got to eat sometimes. And I was the same at work. Oh my god, I'm terrible. Like I'm known for skipping lunch breaks and working through the day to get home quicker because I can go without. I'll just muster on through. But think about that. You’ve gone past your basic survival instinct to—it’s wild, right? Sacrificing against your health for like coins! Yeah exactly! But I might miss this thing that's going—that no no I'm exactly the same. It’s something I think that that we struggle with in in this respect.
Priority?
I don't know anything about what makes me happy at this point. I really don't. Really? No, I very—I've I've found a couple of things that I think I'm interested in. But like the thing is once you start making money on these scales and things that happen, it only becomes the drive that's interesting to you if it's going to fulfill—fast forward you somehow. And that's not that toxic thing that we funnily enough we've come full circle but that's it's the same sort of thing. And I think I think it's a big problem for me. Because if it's not—if it's not go—I'm thinking "Why am I..." And that's why drawing for me was the biggest one at the the time because I was like, this is what children do. Why should I do this? And it’s funny that I drew something that was about being a child. Was the it’s weird how things go full circle in the in that respect. But yeah, it's I I often struggle to get on with something if I don't think it's forwarding me in life somehow. Rather than just enjoying the moment or going out and watching the sunset.
One of my—one of my biggest things that's made me happy while I was training was the 4:00 AM get up in the dark and this sounds like I am some sort of psychopath, and I was, but you're like go into the park run for a little bit and then stand on the thing and watch the sunrise was the best thing. And you know why? It’s fucking free. You can stand and watch a sunrise and go, "Wow, thanks for another day," sort of thing. And I know that sounds really woo-sah and like really far out spiritual but I didn't—for me it wasn't like that. I just enjoyed seeing how beautiful this moment was and I was the only person in Hyde Park running at 4:00 AM every single day and it was the—some of the best time I've had in life.
They've done studies, kind of linking to what you're saying there, where if they give someone a game that they enjoy, people will do it and off have a high motivation to do it. If you then pay the same person to do the same game, their motivation will decrease.
Oh, I have a big problem with this.
So you can love doing something and then the minute the reward starts to become extrinsic, which is external, which is money, your motivation decreases. And this is why it's—it's very important even for me with this podcast. I started it because I love doing it, love meeting people. When it starts becoming a commercial thing, it moves into being a job and then the science says my motivation will decrease. So it's interesting now because you talked about your drawing. You started drawing because it was a—and then it becomes this and it becomes an NFT and then it becomes a business and then you—and then you're like, "Oh my god, I don't want to do the same thing." I’m here again, yeah exactly! Exactly.
You said—you said you've not figured out what makes you happy.
Definitely not yet, no. Ask me in a few years.
I mean so what's my conclusive point been for what makes me happy? Professionally it's super clear for me now. Having a—and these are keywords—so a worthwhile challenge that I'm doing with people that I love. I love that. Love that. I've come up—I've I've come up with that based on a ton of things. Some of the things that you've said fit perfectly into it. When you look at Tyson Fury when he's not in the gym, depressed. When you look at gold—Olympians, whether they win or lose at the Olympics, they get depression because they’ve reached the mountaintop and there's nothing else to strive for. And so when I was going through my notes and I was thinking the day that someone offered me 50-odd million to buy my business was one of the worst days of my life and Gary Vaynerchuk, I know you're doing some stuff with him, he says the same thing. When I spoke to him on the podcast he was like, "The day when I buy the New York Jets will be the worst day of my life." He was like, "I hope it happens on my deathbed." Because not having something to strive for—and this has been a big struggle of mine for many years—you lose orientation, right? When you're training for the Olympics, we're going this way, this is our purpose in life. When the Olympics is over, you ain't got no fucking direction! You're like...
Well I mean look at this, I'm talking about direction! My—that whole thing for me and that mountain for me was One Direction. And music after that, like I said, you're never going to keep up with what we did. Like we sold so many records and we did so many—we broke so many records, we did so many things. You know, I mean we were in stadiums every day, 94,000 people every day. Like I was in like—I used to break into Wembley Stadium on the nighttime because it was fun and I was smashed! And I thought these people aren't going to recognize me. We used to—I broke into every major stadium in America! Honestly! And the people used to chase us on these like police like little squad bikes being like "Hey sir, you're not supposed to be in here!" and we’d run because it was like a game of attack. And I swear to god! There was this one time we we opened up a door and found a Zamboni, you know the thing that squashes the ice? And we accidentally emptied the like two ton of water on the floor! I didn't know I might have to pay for that now I've said it!
Um, yeah, so once you reach that height, I suppose one of the reasons I struggle the most out of it is because you're never going to reach that height again and then it's almost like limbo. And also not knowing whether or not we're going to come back. Are we going to come back? Everyone's asking "Oh da da da" and it feels like pressure to come back. It's almost like your parents going "When's baby two coming?" You know what I mean? It's like, "I don't know, we haven't got another one."
So that—that's wild to me and and and having to deal with that at a young age I know I was always going to mess it up somewhere is what I would say about myself. Because that's like he says, the worst day ever. You know, the day the band ended I was like, "Thank lord for that." And I know a lot of people are going to be mad at me for saying that, but I needed to stop or it would kill me. Um, and I was like "Thank the lord." And then after that trying to like funnel your way back into society being like, "Hey guys, I'm still here, turning up at Tescos in a Lamborghini like a idiot!" You know? I’m like, "What the fuck am I doing?" And and for a lot of that, it—yeah, I I agree with a lot of that statement. It’s you need to have something to strive for and I feel like I'm finding that a little bit more now and learning to relax.
Yeah, you've talked a lot about this.
Learning to relax, learning to just be—you know, a lot of people go "Be part of the moment, man, be in the moment" and like I'm like "This is bullshit," but it's true! If you can just sit, you know, and enjoy something for what it is for five minutes...
Have you tried meditation?
My ex um Cheryl is very big on meditation. Um, she sent me one the other day and I got told off for not doing it again! Meditation gets me in trouble these days! Um, no, I need to I—I I did a couple of things of meditation with my old personal trainer that were quite good, but I just my mind's so fucking busy! I can't shut it up. Like the moment I'm trying to not think about something I'm like, "Oh yeah, but what about if we just did this next week?" and I know you'll be exactly the same! That’s why I'm saying this!
I'm like trying so fucking hard with this meditation thing. I’m shouting every morning and I'm like "Steve, close the tabs!" And every morning I'm sat there in my on the fucking floor of my shower because it's like—it's like looks like it's from Thailand and the water's pouring and I'm like "Just don't think about anything" and then I'm like "Okay, let me—how do I explain this? I was like, you know like if we like have a plate of food and like I feed you a little bit... oh wait, Liam's coming in for the podcast now, what what should I speak to him about?" And then you know I just—Which one were you doing? The two senses thing where you like think of like what you can hear and what you can smell?
I've tried all of them. I've tried this one with beads where you like hold the beads and you just move the beads through your hand.
Oh yeah, the like the simulation like in the yeah yeah yeah. That one—I like the two senses one. Not bad. It’s good in the shower as well. If you like close your eyes then pick two senses of which you can choose like feel and—Oh, interesting. I haven't tried that. So your mind can only do two senses at once. So once you shut some of them off, that's technically meditation because you're in the moment. But I still don't feel like I've had that, you know, I'm not a monk at this point. I wish I was.
I think it's important though.
I—I do, I get it. I do understand it, but I also think... Imagine if you could get your mind just to be in the present moment fully and just be right there. If I could have done that at school, I’d have been—I’d have been top of the class. But my mind's going, "Oh yeah, what are we going to do? Lunchtime!" and stuff like that.
I'm going to—I'm not going to give up so I'm going to keep trying. Every morning naked on the on my bathroom floor! Now that’s what I want to think about!
Worthwhile challenge with people you love. So worthwhile you define it yourself, right? Challenge means it can't be easy because then your motivation won't be high. And then surrounded by people you love. For me, that is where I've figured out my happiness lives. And so upon leaving my company that I founded for 10 years, now I'm like learning to DJ, doing a big theatrical play at the Albert Hall which we've directed and produced. I'm just trying, I'm throwing my hand at everything, biotech...
Love it! No, I'm the same. You know, and that's what I was thinking with you from what you were saying. You're never going to top that mountain, so where's—what is the mountain? I mean we've done so many random, you know, the trip to Namibia with Ant was one of the things and we jumped—we did a world first of a canyon swing in Namibia, which was really crazy and wild and I thought I might die on national television. But that is okay. Um, what else did we do? Doing this NFT things really interesting, um, doing the online shows because we were one of the first people to really like pioneer with a company the thing through that and you know, my team were massive, massive behind that. Um, but it was almost like making a TV show every week with new songs and songs that I hadn't sang since whatever, songs I'd never heard before, and I just would turn up and do it and it really, really went well and I loved that.
Um, I don't know, I've had I think I've had many, many, many jobs. I’ve got like a laundry list. To the point where when the census came, I didn't know what the hell to write. And I didn't want to write "performer" because I think it just sounds like such a bodge-off job of like—it doesn't—it doesn't encapsulate anything that I actually do. I mean we design clothes for Hugo, underwear modeling, da da da, loads of stuff.
Do you think maybe you just need a really big fucking scary, terrifying goal that you really care about?
Well, I mean someone did ask me to go and do Everest at one point and I was like, I don't know, I might die on that one.
But does that not make you a little bit like, "Right, now we've got something to aim for! Get in the gym!"
Yeah, I mean in a way I'm already the—something I'm cooking up in my brain. I’m not—I’m not going to talk about it here in case it doesn't come off. But I'm cooking up something at the moment that's very gym-orientated and I'm definitely going to give it a big, big go. Something's pissed me off. Um, and I thought I just had to do it.
Um, and I think I think the one thing I'll say—what the one thing I'll say about success and and about these things if I'm honest about happiness: I think it's learning to have respect for yourself. I mean, there's a lot of things people say about don't base yourself on others and never look at other people in that way, which I actually think you need to throw out the window.
Because there's when I was like—it’s almost weird, I learned it from my character design. When I was designing characters, I didn't start from nowhere. And how I learned to design characters was like, "How do you make a dragon if you've never seen one?" How do you know what a dragon—never seen one? So they mix it with a—with a... exactly, this is funny. So they mix it with a lion, mixed with a snake, mixed with a crocodile, mixed with a dinosaur. Because they're the ones that we have. So they base them off of stuff.
So I like look at people who are my heroes and I think, "What is it that I love about them that I don't think I possess yet?" And then that's how you know you can respect yourself. And I think that's the most important thing for me is if I get up in the morning I respect myself, I go to bed on night time I respect myself, I'm happy. But certain things about my life—and even this moment—I want to change. But it's like Christian Bale, for example. I love his acting go—go-to and and I mean some things he's done in his career have been really unhealthy when he did *The Machinist* and stuff like that, but I like that drive and I like the fact that he like buries himself into a role and stuff and I've never learned that quite yet. So that might be one of the things I want to steal.
Exactly, if someone—yeah, it's like taking people's stuff but then you're molding it into your own character. We were talking today about avatars, which is obviously a huge market at the moment. People spend so much time on their avatars, on their games when they start something. But in life, you are your avatar! You can do everything you want! And it's like if you're making your avatar and you've got to go and do 10 free kicks to earn the next Ronaldo boot, you're like, "Oh all right, I'll get in there and do them." The moment someone asks you to do something in life to earn something, you're like, "Oh I don't want to do it." But it's like that's why I was trying to think how we explain this to kids. But that's the most basic analogy I can come up with, you know?
Children's book?
Children's book. I had an idea for a children's book actually but we didn't finish it. That's a lot of the the room thing in my... look at my—he's smiling at me.
Well Liam, we've talked about so much today. Um, so much so much inspiration and you know, a lot of the questions I ask are based on—Oh I hope so. Um. It’s an amazing amazing conversation and um I really, really respect and appreciate your willingness to be open and honest about all these things because you're helping so many people and you don't even realize it.
I I do hope so. You know? And um I think you're just a tremendously inspirational guy. You're you know, an incredible entrepreneur which I don't think people have fully um appreciated yet because you're you've not sort of disclosed all of the investments and businesses you're involved in but I think that's certainly coming. I think we might have a bit of a um European Ashton Kutcher on our hands if I say so myself! Um, but yeah, thank you mate. Honestly, you know you've been through what is a unique just tremendously unique experience over the last decade. Nobody can understand it other than probably the boys you did it with. And um from that, you know, there’s ups, there’s downs, but this is life, right? And um you sharing it has bring brought tremendous value for me so I know it will definitely bring huge value for our audience. So I just want to say thank you.
No, I thank mate. Thank honestly this has been one of the best chats I've had in a long time. Oh thank you, means a lot. And I'm excited to see what you bring to the table on Dragon's Den. I can't wait to watch it.
Oh I'm buzzing, I'm buzzing. Maybe you can come in with uh some of your ideas!
I know! I'll—I'll come and pitch something! I’ll be—Can you imagine? You should be a Dragon one day! I was actually thinking... Maybe I'll come in disguise! We’ll do one week where I'll like Ant and Dec the shit out of you! And I’ll just come on and be like, "Right, I've got this idea for swimming pools on roofs!" Would you ever be a Dragon? Um... oh I think I'd be a terrible Dragon. I don't know, I'd feel bad for people and I'd want to be like, "Oh no, it’s fine, just like I'll buy it! I’ll take it!"
Thank you, brother, appreciate you.
Thank appreciate thank you.
Thank you.
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