Jim Chapman: Overcoming Failure Anxiety, Finding Love & Life-Changing Therapy

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There’s a lot of rumors surrounding Jim, and today he addresses some of them for good.

My dad—he was out of my life from fairly young. He was arrested, he was in prison for a while. He was definitely sociopathic. I wonder what man I would be if he had stuck around.

God, I've lost count of the amount of times I've been called a cheater. Me and Tanya broke up just over two years ago. Me and Sarah got together, as far as the world is concerned, a few months later. But obviously that wasn't it, because the world only found out me and Tanya broke up when we decided to tell them.

I lost my shit the other day on social media. I can take hate; I've got a thick skin. It doesn't matter, it bounces straight off. I don't care. This is my job; it's not a personal reflection on me. But when it comes to somebody calling my pregnant fiancé the names they called her, and saying that my baby should be miscarried, that's where I draw the line.

Some people come on this podcast and they're cagey. Sometimes they even try to bend the truth to protect their ego. Dare I say it, sometimes they even lie. Not my next guest. Completely, utterly, brutally honest. Raw, unfiltered, and vulnerable. He’s a British celebrity with six or seven or eight million followers, but you don’t know Jim. You don’t know Jim Chapman. Almost nobody does.

Today we're talking about success, the chronic curse of overthinking. We're talking about love, breakups, rumors, and the similarities in our mindsets. We're talking about how you need to be a contradiction in various parts of your life if you're going to be happy—something I didn't realize until today, until this conversation.

And we're talking about child abuse—child abuse to an extent that most of us could and should hopefully never be able to imagine. We're talking about paralyzing anxiety, social media, its upsides and downsides, and what all of this life stuff is fundamentally about. Unavoidably, there's a lot of rumors surrounding Jim, and today he addresses some of them for good. Without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody is listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

Jim, I always think the most important place to start when I have these conversations is getting to know the experiences that made you who you are today. Because for me, that creates the context for everything we’re about to discuss. A lot of the time, people don't really know those things. So, tell me about some of the experiences when you were younger, when you were in school, that you think have contributed to the man you are today.

Okay. I guess—and God, this instantly is going to sound like a sob story and it absolutely is not, this is a positive thing—I guess the first thing that comes to mind is my dad. So, my dad was... he did some bad things. Like, he abused my mom from even before I was born. I’ve got two older sisters who dealt with it as well. I don't think he ever turned a hand to them, but he was verbally very—I mean, even I remember that and I was super young—I remember him being very, very hurtful and very unkind, and just bullying to my sisters.

I think he always wanted boys, so my brother and I were kind of like—I've got a twin—so we were like the prodigal children, I suppose. I didn't know this, because obviously I was born into it. But it wasn't until I got a little older and I’d have sleepovers at friends' houses or I'd just be in the presence of other people and their parents, and I'd be like, "Wait, your house isn't terrifying? That’s... this is great."

I think I got, as I got slightly older, I realized that things weren't quite right. And it was one day, my brother and I were in the room next door where we slept, my parents, and we walked in and my dad was like on top of her just beating the shit out of her, basically. And my brother and I, we were only tiny, we must have been like five or six, tried to pull him off, but obviously he was huge, so he just pinged us away.

And it was a wild night. You know, the police came, took him away, etc., etc. He... I didn't know at the time, but he had been beating my mom and abusing her for years. But of course, she was trapped. Now, my mom is a saint, but also she doesn't tolerate fools. She’s not... I think the thing about domestic abuse is a lot of people go, "Oh, just get out of there, just get out of there." It's not as simple as that. She had her kids to think of.

I remember being in the car with my dad and he would threaten to just crash the car and kill us all. He drove like a maniac. He was drunk quite a lot. My mom couldn't just leave with four children because he found us. We tried to leave and he found us, you know? So I think that he is very much a cautionary tale for me.

He was out of my life from fairly young, but never fully out because he, you know, he was taken away by the police, he was arrested, he was imprisoned for a while. But despite the fact that we had like a court order that he couldn't come near, he still came near all the time. At one point, he—kidnapped is a very strong word—but at one point he took me. He just kind of came to the window and I was his son, you know? He was my dad, so I worshipped him and I still didn't fully understand.

So I remember going to the window and saying, "Mom’s calling the police, you have to go." And he just went, "Okay," and just took me with him and drove—we were in a bloody police chase. Drove like super fast, and the police had to kind of, you know, stop him and pull him over. It was, you know, it was a very unsettling time for a child.

But because of that, he was removed and I spent most of my childhood being brought up by my mom and my big sisters. So, I wanted for nothing. I was very well-loved, very well-protected, super well looked after. And I think actually, I often wonder—and I was having this chat with Sarah the other day because obviously we've got a child on the way—and I was thinking, I wonder what man I would be if he had stuck around or if we couldn't get away from him or whatever it would have been.

And, you know, whether he wanted to or not, he taught me a lot of lessons, but I think mostly cautionary lessons. Because my family are bloody great. You know, there’s... I've got two big sisters, I've got a mom, I've got a twin brother, and I would choose no one else on the planet to take those roles. If I had the choice, they would be the people I'd choose, 100%. And he missed out on that because he was unwell, I would say.

He had MS, and I always remember him being a victim of it, in a way. Like my sister inherited it from him, and she’s so positive with it. Like, she’s not a victim, she doesn’t let it beat her. She has times where she’s tired, it gets on top of her, she has a little sob, she goes to bed. She recognizes the signs though, and she goes, "Right, okay, it’s getting on top of me, I need to rest for a while."

I remember my dad just being like a victim of it and being like, "Oh, it ruined my life, it did this." He used to play football, from what I understand, a fairly highish level, like kind of... he played for West Ham, not in the A-team, but something. And he was like, "Oh, the MS ruined it for me." Which I'm sure it did, you know, there’s no question with that, but life deals you cards and you react, you behave in a way that you see fit.

And he let the cards life dealt him ruin everything, I think. And I think because of that, he was angry. I also—mean, and I don't say this lightly—but I think he was definitely sociopathic. He manipulated everybody. And a lot... a lot of it my mom didn't even know about until we were clear from him and then people started asking her for money because, you know, he owed it to them. I mean, he went to prison for like armed robbery or something. Like he was... just, you know, he did some really bad things.

So I think for me, that’s kind of the first thing my mind goes to when someone asks me about kind of childhood formulation of me. But I don't necessarily think of it as a negative thing because actually I think that because he was removed from my life by my protectors, by my mom and my big sisters, I had a wonderful childhood. You know, we didn't have any... when he was around there was more money, because I think he stole a lot of money and because he took it, you know, there were two parents earning, but also he... he earned it by sort of nefarious means.

Suddenly we had no money, and my nan had to like buy the house that we lived in, and we stayed at my mom's best friend's for like a year or so because she took us in because we couldn't afford anywhere else. But I was safe and I was happy and I was like... my mom had more capacity to be a better mom because she wasn't constantly running for the hills, you know? So actually, I think that it's a really positive thing that that happened because imagine if he was still around. Imagine if he was still my father figure now. At 33, I'd be a mess, for one thing, I think, but I'd also be... I wonder if I'd be a not a nice man. And actually I pride myself on being decent and kind, and he missed out on that.

I read a little bit about this story as I was doing some research on your book and things like that, and one of the most startling parts of all of this is how much empathy, dare I say, you appear to have for this man, which I think people would find surprising. I think you said, "I don't blame him for how things happened."

Yeah, I don't. I actually... I think of myself as quite an empathetic person. I rarely have arguments with people. I do with Sarah, obviously, because we live under the same roof and like we have disagreements, but...

Your fiancé.

Yes, my fiancé, yes. Although not at the moment because she's pregnant, so she can do no wrong. But I do have... I tend not to have like extra personal drama because I do consider how it would be from someone else's perspective. And I appreciate that, yes, okay, I could have my say because I feel slighted about a thing, and I could say, "Well, you did this and it made me feel that." But that's my feelings on an action that they did, and they will have equal and opposite feelings on the way I behaved because of their actions.

Nobody—I don't believe nobody will go out of their way just to be a prick, you know? They've always got their thoughts and feelings and their motivations, and I don't think anyone's doing it like, "Oh, that’ll piss Jim off, I'll do that." You know what I mean? They're living their life. We all live in our bubble. My therapist calls it the lifeboat. We all live in our lifeboat, right? But we're all in the same ocean. So depending on how good your lifeboat is, you weather the storm or not, right?

There’s a storm on the ocean, we're all in it, especially at the moment there's a pandemic, right? We're all in the pandemic together. But it depends on the boat you’re sailing on. And there are times when boats kind of bump into each other or someone's in a dinghy and you need to sort of tie them to yours for a while and help them get through things, whatever. But I really don't feel like anybody is purposely an ass. They might be manipulative, they might see a way that they can behave that will better them in a situation where they go, "Okay, I'll come off better with that." And it might... it might do them no favors, but you know, they’re not doing it for that reason. They’re doing it for that reason. They’re doing it because they want to have a better situation for them, not just to piss me off. So I tend not to have arguments. I will say to someone, "That's not cool, can you see that from my perspective?"

And do you think—so when you think about the situation with your dad—it seemed like from that you avoid attributing blame to him. Is that because you understand the reasons why he was the way he is? Or you have empathy for him?

I just think I have empathy for people. I don't... I think there's definitely blame. I think we all... we all have to own our own actions. But I think there are also... there are reasons behind actions. I don't think it's ever as simple as "He hit my mom just because he’s aggressive." I think you have to dig deeper.

My grandad was—so his dad—not okay. I remember going to his house and he’d be like watching not porn, but like softcore in front of us, you know, as just... he was just—I don't know if he was just a bit like senile at that point or what, but you know, it’s not alright to do that with young kids around.

And you see these generational cycles, right?

100%, yeah. And I'm very proud and very happy to have broken that cycle. Because, you know, my... I don't know what his dad was like, but my grandad taught my dad his behavior. Not all of it, because I actually... I actually do believe my dad had sociopathic tendencies, which isn't necessarily a taught thing, it's more like a brain function thing, you know? But I think there was definitely something there, and it didn't help having his dad instill in him certain beliefs and patterns or whatever.

My mom is a very loud person, and that's a huge understatement. Like, loves to scream in people's faces, very short temper. My dad is a certain way. And as I've got older and older, I've got more conscious that at times I feel like myself becoming a little bit like them in certain moments. And it scares me sometimes. I think, and I think, well, genetically, of course, I’m half of each of them. So, have you ever... has it ever concerned you in the same way that you might have picked up some of the unpleasant traits of either of your parents? Has it ever crossed your mind?

I'm turning into my mom for sure. My mom has unpleasant traits only in so far as she—for example, when I moved house, she wouldn't stop going on about parking. Like that sort of thing. "Oh, you better get parking!" "Mom, I live in London, you don't get off-street parking. I've got a parking permit, I park around the corner, that’s my life." She’s like, "Oh, you need to get a driveway!" I'm like, "No, I don't." Like that’s the sort of thing, she won’t let it drop.

She’s got a fact in her mind about Trump, for example, and she goes, "Oh, Trump's bad, he did this thing." I'm like, "Yeah, but what about all the other things he did?" You know? So she’s... that’s her kind of annoying trait. And if that's the worst I get, then I'm fine with that. As far as my dad, I don't think... I mean, like I say, he’s half me or I'm half him, I suppose.

But I think that... the thing is, my degree's in psychology, right? So I know a little bit about it and I'm always quite conscious. Like I know for a fact there are certain genes that will only get triggered under certain environments. So, yes, alright, I might well have his gene for something, but if I don't... if I'm not in an environment where it has had to express itself, then I might never. And I also think that there is an element of, I guess, consciousness that can override that.

Self-awareness, and education, therapy, psychology.

Totally, yeah. I'm very... I work on—and I hate saying this because it sounds like really wanky—but I work on bettering myself, you know? I know my flaws. I work too much. Like, I forget to bring my head up and I neglect Sarah sometimes because I'm too busy typing away or I'm too busy in my own little world stressing about whatever I'm stressing about, which doesn't need to happen, but it does, and I'm aware of that and that’s the sort of thing I work on.

But I've never been aggressive, never been violent. I... weirdly I do boxing quite a lot, but it's not about the violence of it, it's about the chess of it. Like I really like the... it’s an intellectual sport, you know? You have to be smart, you have to think about where you're positioning all the time. And I've never... this is not... I don't know if it's not in my nature, but it's something that I won't entertain.

There are times where I get driven bonkers by Sarah or by people, and I just think, "Oh my God, I could just like nut you right now." Obviously I'm never going to because it’s just every fiber in my being would not allow me because I've seen the impact. I've seen... I'm 6'3", I could do some real damage, but I just never would. So I do get loud sometimes if I'm... if we're having an argument, I will kind of just talk louder and...

I think with me and Sarah in particular, it's tricky because we're both quite smart. And so when it comes to an argument, we're just trying to outsmart each other the whole time, which makes it really frustrating because we're both going, "No, you're wrong because of this!" And actually, yeah, there’s truth in both, for sure. But it’s really hard to see that when you've got your blood up, you know what I mean?

But I totally think that there’s no... I like to think I've got the best bits of my mom and if there is any kindness in my dad—and I remember moments. I don't have loads of memories of him and 90% of them are negative and scary, but there are moments. I remember him sitting down with me and reading... there was a magazine, I forget what it was called, but you used to get like a little bit of a figure every time and you'd make the figure. And it was like something to do with bugs and we made a big spider.

12 quid per magazine.

Basically, yeah, really overpriced. But I remember him... we would read it with me from cover to cover and we'd put the bug together. Now, there would end up being six issues that we didn't get done and we'd have to do them in one go because he wasn't around, because he was gone doing whatever he was doing and he would let me down a lot, but I remember doing them and I remember loving that time with him.

What kind of dad do you want to become? Because you’ve got a kid on the way now. Congrats again.

Yeah, thanks. It's really hard to say this because I know that every first-time prospective parent goes, "Oh, I'm going to be the best dad." And actually, you know, invariably we’ll all fuck up at some point, right? It’s going to happen. I just think for me, if I can have a child and if I can instill in them the waste of time in anxiety—like that just the... the just sheer nonsense of it.

Like I really want them to understand that worrying does nothing. You know, yes, alright, we can be stressed about things, there are times when life is hard and there's challenges to overcome, but you overcome those challenges when they present themselves. There’s no... my therapist once said to me, "When you worry, you rob yourself twice," right? Because the first time round you're overwhelmingly thinking about nothing but a potential problem, which may never rear its head. If it doesn't rear its head, then you've wasted time worrying about it. If it does rear its head, then you're forced into action because you can't stay in that situation.

So why stress about something that’s never going to happen or, you know, something that you will solve if it does happen? So I really want my child to understand, just be content, I think, and to know that both me and Sarah and all of our families—so my siblings, my mom, Sarah's siblings and her parents—will always be there to help, you know? And I think that if I can do that, then I'll have done a good job.

I want to be patient. It’s in my nature, I'm a very patient person. But I also know that I'll be tested. So when I do snap, I snap quite loudly. So I want to be calm, I want to be patient, I want to be soft and considerate, and again empathetic. Because the thing about kids is, I really appreciate is they get frustrated because they're obviously told what to do by their parents, and they can't necessarily verbalize, or especially don't have the communication ability to say, "No, that's not what I want," you know? They have to appreciate that obviously what I want overrules it for the most part because of safety or whatever. But I think they... I also need to appreciate that they’ll be frustrated because they can't communicate effectively why they feel pissed off because I've said no. And that will often come out in like tantrums or whatever.

And they won’t understand daddy’s world and why when they're trying to get your attention, they don't know you're on a Zoom call pitching something, for example. They're just like, "Daddy won't play with me." You know what I mean? So it’s interesting.

Totally. I also want to make sure I'm around enough. My job totally allows that. Like, I have time, I can work as little or as much as I want, that’s the beauty of my job. Obviously I work less, I earn less, but you know, I can make those sacrifices. I don't at the moment, that's my problem. I work constantly because I like what I do and because of the constant... my anxiety. I'm constantly worried about if I take my foot off the gas, what happens next.

I find that fascinating. But I picked up on that before we started recording, because every time we talked about your screenplays or other things you're working on, you would then end the sentence with, "But I might lose it all."

Right.

I found that interesting because it's not how I end my sentences. But it was like you would tell me something and then you would also then almost caveat it at the end with, "There is a chance I might not get it or I might lose it all." And I find it particularly because I don't think in that way. So where does that come from in you, this...?

My mom. 100%. Again, she's wonderful. She has like an ethos—it's not a saying, but it's an ethos—which is like, "A day doing nothing is a day wasted." She can't relax. I can't relax as a consequence. If I'm sitting there just chilling, even if I'm watching a film, which for me I consider as research because I write films, right? If I'm watching something, I'm like, "Oh, okay, I see what they’re doing there," and it's like I don't watch them passively. I'm constantly thinking about them.

But even if I'm sitting there watching a film, I'm like, "Oh, I shouldn't be doing it." 9:00 PM, right? It’s the evening and I'm supposed to be relaxing and I'm sitting there going, "I shouldn't be doing this, I shouldn't be doing this." That’s my biggest...

What's your brain saying in that moment?

It's telling me off. It’s going, "Dude, you need to be—you can't just be sitting here watching. You need to be working and making. What if this all goes wrong? How are you going to earn the money? How are you going to afford to look after your child and pay the mortgage and, you know, all that stuff?"

A lot of people will resonate with that.

For sure.

And you've addressed it in therapy.

Yeah.

What have you learned?

I learned that I do it. Which a lot of people don't even know, right? That self-awareness of knowing that it's a problem you have, and it's taken me—I've been seeing my therapist for Christ, six, seven years, something like that.

How often?

It varies. If I'm going through a moment, then more often. At the moment, like once every six weeks because I'm pretty chill. But it’s taken her most of our time together just to crack that. And she's sort of said, you know, with me, it's my biggest strength and also my biggest flaw. It just depends on where it is on the dial. Like if I've got that at a seven, it's great, because I'm motivated and I'm enjoying my work and I'm loving it and I'm sitting there going, "God, I'm really good at this," you know? And I'm typing away or doing whatever I'm doing. If it's an eight or a nine, it's torture.

Paralyzed, or...?

Yeah, often paralyzed. Often paralyzed, ironically, into doing nothing because I'm so busy stressing about getting it done. I don't get it done because I've got no brain space because it's too busy whizzing around in my head going, "Get it done, get it done, get it done." So there's a point where it's sort of really, ironically, kind of just... it’s the antithesis of what it's designed for.

And I think I get a lot of that from my dad because I remember being young knowing that it was easier to be busy and keep myself separate. So I used to draw. I'd be really arty and just draw in the corner. Yeah, sit out of harm's way.

So you would draw in the corner because you felt safe if you were busy and he wasn't...?

If I wasn't in his eyeline, I couldn't be chastised or it was safer. The thing with my dad, he was very unpredictable, which is terrifying for a kid, right? Because you don't know if you're going to get love or you're going to get punishment for the same action. So I would spend most of my time just kind of getting on with stuff. And because of that, I've developed a real independence, a real creativity. But if it's turned up too high, it's crippling.

Whereas if it's at a good number, then it's what's got me to where I am. I 100% would not be here without that because I just wouldn't work as hard as I do. But I don't need to work as hard as I do, you know? Human beings have a couple of things they need to do: they need to sleep, they need to eat, they have the option of procreating. That's kind of it, right? What else is there? The rest of it is just made-up shit that we've given ourselves to do.

Society has told us that in order to be a complete person, we need to climb.

Right, totally, and it’s bloody stressful. It’s debilitating sometimes. So when I have that turned up too high, I end up doing nothing. But I worry myself, and Sarah is like, "Where have you gone?" Like I just disappear and I don't talk, I don't like... I haven't been like this for a while because I'm pretty good at recognizing the signs and I know to take my foot off the gas a bit because of, you know, all the therapy I've had. But yeah, it’s the bloody worst.

What has helped you?

Therapy. Yeah, absolutely that. Being aware of it. There's a point—I always say this because I've actually... a couple of my best mates have... I don't know a guy that’s my age that doesn't need it, by the way. So a couple of my best mates, I've put them in touch with therapists or sort of said something, you know, "I think you should see someone."

And actually, we're really open and honest with each other. We're constantly looking out. If one of us is quiet on the group chat, we'll go, "Dude, are you alright? You've been a bit quiet." I said to him at the time, I was like, "There's a really tough point with therapy where you start seeing someone and at first you're really resistant. You're like, 'No, I'm fine, what are you talking about?' But when they point things out to you, like, 'Shit, I'm not fine.' But you're aware of doing it, but you have no tools in place of how to stop doing it or how to at least challenge it. So you're just punishing yourself for doing it."

Like I remember going through that stage for a long time going, "I hate that I'm failing, I hate that I'm still stressing out about being... like working constantly or not working constantly or whatever it is. I hate that I'm doing it to myself, but I can't stop." And you feel a bit like a junkie, you know? In a way that you're like, you know it's wrong, you know you shouldn't be doing it, but you can't... you can't not. And actually, it takes a while to learn the techniques.

You know, mine is as simple as... it’s painful, but I have to go, "Right, stop. Just don't do it. Step away from your laptop, step away from your camera, do whatever it is you're doing. Have five minutes. If you feel better after five minutes, go back to it. If not, then take the rest of the day off." And that's what I have to do. Sarah needs to keep me in check quite a lot because if I... sometimes it sneaks up on me and I'm kind of like at stage four before I even realize it, and I'm like, "Shit, I'm in too deep."

So she's often like, "Dude, come back." And that's really helpful. It's hard though, because you don't want to be told by someone that you're not performing the way you should, you know what I mean? Especially when it's already your weakness. But you need to be... I actually really like criticism. So it's good for me. Like, you know, if I send someone some work or something and they go, "Oh, okay, as long as it's constructive," you know? They go, "Okay, I see what you're doing here, don't like that, that's not great." I thrive on that because I'm back in there and I'm, you know... so I think having other third parties be like, "Mm-mm, you're not doing right right now." And that's something that I really want to be totally aware of when it comes to my child, because I don't want to be an absent father. I don't want to be a dad that's always going, "No, no, no, I'm just on my laptop, come back to me in five minutes." I want to be able to—obviously I have to work, you know, we all have a living—but I want to be able to have my kid with me and be present, you know, and not them think that they're sort of auxiliary or like an afterthought or just an addition. I want them to know that they are the center of my universe, you know?

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So professionally, we talked a little bit about your work there. One of the things that you've said is you don't like being called like an influencer, like a YouTuber.

I think it's really reductive. Yeah. And I think that actually if you look at, you know, if you just weigh up the quantity of work I do, it's only about... less than 50, I'd say. Unfortunately, I don't get paid for the other stuff yet.

You didn't get paid for YouTube at the start, right?

Absolutely, yeah, totally. But I do lots of other stuff. I appreciate that I communicate that other stuff online via my social media. I just think that influencer is for one thing it’s an ugly word because it implies that you are utilizing influence over someone. Whereas actually, I just share the stuff I like. Even if it's an ad, even if it's... I'm working with a brand, I'm not going to work with a brand that I don't want to talk about, right? So it's I'm talking about things that I'm actually enjoying or passionate about, or whatever it may be. And I don't see that as exerting influence. I see that as sharing joy or even if it's just sharing good tips or whatever it may be.

I see that as a very different thing. And I also have a thing—and I've mentioned this a few times—there's... there was a void in social media where myself and my contemporaries who all started at around the same time did it for fun, did it for love, did it for adventure. We had no idea it was going to go anywhere. And when it started to, we were like, "Oh my God!" And genuinely, I look back at it now with such nostalgia. I don't miss it, but I love that I was part of it, you know? Because it was such a cool journey to...

Moment in history, as well.

Yeah, totally. It absolutely was, you know? And we sold out these venues and we were... you know, we had screaming fans. It felt like being in a small version of One Direction, you know? It was wild and just so much fun.

Do you miss that?

No. I loved it at the time when I was in my early 20s.

Every young person—and I saw some of those clips of your meetups in like parks and stuff, and I've never seen a line that long in my lifetime.

Yeah, it was wild.

Like a thousand meters, I don't even know how many meters that is, of people four like four-deep in like this massive line just screaming and crying at times.

It’s really hard to put it into words. I'd try explaining it to Sarah when we first met because obviously she...

Showed her the videos.

Yeah, it’s really hard. And we get... if I get stopped on the street now by someone, she's like, "What?" Yeah, but she's also like, "Oh, they didn't scream or cry." I'm like, "Yeah, but you don't get it, Sarah. It used to be..."

But what my point with this is that like every everyone thinks, especially young people, especially young men—well, all young people—would love to be that guy. And you're telling me you don't miss it.

No. I loved it at the time, don't get me wrong, it was great. But the novelty soon wears off because it got to the point where you couldn't... I couldn't take public transport. I couldn't walk to the shops. You know, and it sounds like I'm really exaggerating, but actually at the time it really was that. Even now, if I'm walking along the street and I see a group of teenagers, I'm like, "Oh shit, here we go." It's not teenagers anymore, they're all in their 20s, but I'm so conditioned to being aware of teenagers now that I'm like, "Oh my God, oh my God, they're going to come for me and they're going to like scream and cry and it's... I don't..."

How has this played with your anxiety though?

That's not what sets me off. So that's fine. I've always got time for it. If people stop and want to have a conversation, as long as I physically have time for it, I'm not rushing, I'll always stop and have a chat, you know? I'm really gracious in that I appreciate that without those people, I wouldn't be in the position I'm in.

I don't feel like I owe them anything because at the same time I provided the content they wanted to watch, but it’s definitely like almost like a transaction, right? I wouldn't be here without them, they wouldn't... a lot of them have said like when I had announcements that Sarah was pregnant, a lot of them sort of said, "Oh my God, I can't believe it, you like brought me up." Because a lot of these teenagers watched my content and my contemporaries' content...

Like Shay Carl as well, right?

Right, totally, because they loved like watching us and and we were role models for them, I suppose, you know? And that’s a really wonderful thing to be part of.

And dare I say it, you were idyllic in a way. That it often with what... with the Shaytards and Shay Carl and his family, I didn't have a perfect family like that, so there was it gave it you felt like you were part of that, you know?

Yeah, I think that and also the friendships with the others. It was very idyllic, but it genuinely was. That was our life at the time, it was just pure fun and like there was no stress. We were young so we had no like responsibilities, no mortgages, no like other things to worry about other than just like going out there and having a blast. And we just got to document that and share it.

You don't miss it.

No. Like I say, I'm nostalgic and I'm really happy I had was part of it, but I don't miss it because I'm 33. I don't want 14-year-old girls pawing over me, you know what I mean? Or just kind of like desperately trying... I remember one time being on the tube and this young girl just burst into tears. And her dad looked at me and thought I was like—no, and you’d blame him, you know? Of course, yeah. So I was like, "I'm alright, I'm on the internet," which didn't help because being on the internet he’s like, "Doing what?"

So, yeah, I don't miss it because it's actually really invasive. And like I say, I don't care about the notoriety. It was really lovely to be that person for some people, and to have... even then, although there was big numbers, it was still fairly underground. It hadn't really reached mainstream. It was just online, right? So although it was lots of people, it was of a certain sort of sector of society. It wasn't like older men, it wasn't... you know, it was just teenagers basically.

And it was, yeah, like I say it was a real blast. But I don't necessarily... I feel like actually I grew out of it fairly rapidly. The thing about it being teenagers is that no one can obsess like teenagers. So they would be desperate for the photo, the selfie, the... they’d scream and cry and go ballistic. And actually, I’d be like, "I'm really anti-climactic. I'm just some dude." I’m really... I’ll often just go, "I'm really sorry that it's me." Yeah, so yeah, I'm very like I say, I'm very grateful for it. I love that I've got those memories and I love that I've made those friends. But yeah, I don't miss it.

Who's Jim now then? If that's old Jim and that was your say your first chapter, what is the... what is your second chapter?

I feel like I've had so many chapters, actually. I feel like I've evolved. The beauty of my job, right, is I'm allowed to do that, I'm allowed to evolve. When it's forced, it can be really ugly and I think that’s how a lot of people lose their following. Partly it’s entropy, you know? People grow up and they move on, they do other things, but...

Algorithms.

Algorithms, all that. But I think mostly it's just people force it to try to get traffic and views. And actually, my life has just as it's changed, I've grown up with it and I've been... I've accepted that change. Like, for example, I'm really... I'm really hoping I turn into a silver fox. I'm looking forward to aging gracefully, you know what I mean? And I think that that’s kind of my role on social media. I'm not pretending to talk to young people anymore, I'm not pretending to be the cool guy and like, you know, I'm... I appreciate that I'm getting older. My life’s changed, my interests have changed, my career has changed. And I share that with people as opposed to desperately trying to still impress a young an audience that aren't right for me.

I speak to a lot of YouTubers, and we used to sign a couple, and there was this really interesting moment where that first wave of YouTuber—because of algorithm changes, I think predominantly algorithm changes—what they were doing then just stopped working. The views went down. And I swear to God, I witnessed a form of depression and existential crisis from these YouTubers who suddenly were like, "What the fuck has happened? What do I do with my life now?" Because their whole identity from whether it was 16 years old to 22 was doing this one thing. They never really understood work.

And it's funny because I've never really talked about this before, but one of the YouTubers we signed—you’ll know his name, maybe 18 at the time—and I remember calling him and offering him 20 grand just to show up to a place. And he's like, "Nah." I’m like, "Just show up to the place." He’s like, "Nah, just can't be bothered." And he had developed that sense of like complacency about about his career and how you make money and how easy it is. And then when shit changes, I'm saying, he can't make any money anymore. And he’s spiraled down because I think life taught him that money and life was super easy. The algorithm changes, and now he's like, "Fuck." And he has to go work at Tesco.

That's something that I really can't tolerate in this industry is when people have that attitude. Like, I'm where I am because I'm good to work with. As much as the numbers and as much as everything else, I've stayed the test of time because I am honest and decent with my audience and I respect my audience and I don't take the piss and don't take them for granted. But also, if I am offered a job, I turn up on time, I say my pleases and thank-yous. I get a lot of repeat work because I'm good to work with and I pride myself on that, and I have no... I have so little tolerance for ego.

Like, all of us, if we're on set shooting a thing, whether it's the runner or the director or you're me doing the bit to camera or you're the guy going to get coffee, we're all just want to do our job and enjoy what we're doing and then go home at the end of the day and say, "Oh, that was nice," you know? There's no space for any of that. And I think the... we it's particularly bad in this industry, right? More so than any other, because when it comes to musicians or actors or whatever, they have so many people around them, right? Who are looking after them and who are saying no and who are advising them.

And also, they're not their own content. Brad Pitt doesn't play Brad Pitt, he plays someone else, right? Someone like me, my job is to edit myself, take my own photo, make my own caption, reply to my own comments. And it's all like "Jim, Jim, Jim, Jim, Jim." It’s very easy to then think you're the center of the universe. But actually, for every person who's commenting going "Jim, Jim, Jim, Jim, Jim," they're also commenting on everybody else's content because they just consume the content. I might be their favorite, I might not, it doesn't matter. I'm not... my I am not my job. And I think that's really important for a lot of influencers to work out. Like, they believe themselves to be important. And actually, I say this quite a lot, if I were to die tomorrow, there'd be my friends and family would be gutted, obviously, and they’d be really, really sad, and there’d be a few people of my audience who are like who have a real connection with me. But for the most part, people go, "Oh, that's a shame, I liked him," and they’d move on, they’d find someone else. I'm not that important to them that they can't continue without me.

So funny because that it sounds really depressing to some degree to say, "Oh, I don't matter, whatever," but I actually think it's the opposite.

It's really freeing.

Yeah, it’s the most liberating thing ever. I remember having the same sort of existential conversation with myself and it really happened when I learned about the universe and space. And I got really into the cosmos and I was like, "Wait a minute, I'm fucking not important at all." Totally. When it like there's a scene in Cosmos where it zooms out from and it just keeps going, and you're like, "Wait, stop!" And it's like, "No, that's just the moon." And then it goes out and it's like, "That's just the galaxy." And then the galaxy becomes a piece of sand. And you're like, "What the...?" But the freeing part is, that means that all this shit doesn't matter. And that's liberation. Like ego can be... and this is the powerful thing about psychedelics from the last person that sat there, who's the biggest psychedelics investor in the world, is it dissolves your ego and says to you, "You nothing... you don't fucking matter." Right.

It's really something it's really important to to learn. I think probably one of my biggest learnings from my career. Because I went through it, you know, at the beginning when everyone was like obsessing over the the YouTuber, I was like, "Wow, I'm like a really big deal." Yeah, I think it’s really important to know your worth and to know your value and to appreciate your position. I know that I am worth a certain amount of money if I work with a brand, or I know that I'm worth a certain amount of time if I'm doing a thing. But I also know that I don't matter in the grand scheme of things and that this is a phase.

I might... I might fuck this up tomorrow. You know what I mean? It might last for another 10 years, it might last for another 30 years and I might never want to quit. Equally, I might get bored of it and go, "You know what, I feel like it’s too invasive now." Whatever, it doesn't matter, it's my decision and I don't owe anybody else. But equally, they don't owe me. They don't have to watch me if they don't choose to. And I think that's really important and a lot of people, especially when they're young and they're developing their sense of identity, as a lot of influencers are, and suddenly are put in a position where they are reaching lots and lots of people. It's very, very easy to think of yourself as the center of the galaxy. And we're not. And actually what really matters, what truly matters, is the people that matter to you, you know? And as much as I appreciate my audience, I don't know them, you know? I wouldn't know... I mean, statistically, there’ll be a certain number of them that die every year just because of whatever, right? I've got no idea it’s happening.

You're not sending cards.

Do you know what I mean? Like, I've got no idea it’s happening. So it just so happens that I'm on the other side of the camera and these people connect to me and I connect to them, but it doesn't go any further than that, you know?

Something really almost some something your perspective is fascinating because on one end you're very you're very freed. Right? On the other end, you talk about your anxiety of of of worry. And I'm trying to weigh those two things up. This idea that you're like, "You know what, I don't have a plan. I've heard you say that, I don't have a, you know, 10-year plan. The future is the future, whatever." But then maybe when we zoom in and we look at the micro scale, which is like right now today, it seems to be very...

Yeah, you're not wrong. You're not wrong. I think on the on the wider scale, I am... it's very freeing to know this. On the more individual scale, like when you when you zoom right in, it’s the stress of survival, I suppose, of like being enough to maintain... mostly you know what that bit comes down to? Money, I think. Which is unfortunate because like money’s not my main motivator, but I realize it’s necessary.

Where did you learn that? I feel like there is there anything in your past where money or the lack thereof became you know compromised your safety?

No, I don't think it compromised my safety. Like I say, we didn't have any, and I appreciate that life is it's... like I said earlier, there’s a point where you have enough and that after that point, it doesn't matter anymore. You know, you can go from having a little bit of surplus so that you can enjoy holidays, etc., you know, buy yourself some luxury things or whatever you want. After that point, it's all numbers, it doesn't really make any difference.

But when you go the other side of the scale and you haven't got enough, it's a major stress, you know? Because what blows my mind about it is it’s all fake. Like it doesn't... it's just it's literally me going, "Here, here's a piece of paper for loads of your stuff," and you go, "Okay, cool, I put value in that piece of paper." It’s bollocks. But it's unfortunately the way our world works. And that stresses me out just in terms of providing. Like I couldn't go back—I mean I could, I’d have to, but I would really struggle if I had to go back to a conventional job. Just doesn't suit me. Like I was bloody miserable. My mom thought I was going to kill myself when I was working those jobs, you know?

I was very, very sad. I think it's a it’s a need for me to create. And I know that sounds really ridiculous and really wank, but like I I can't turn up to a job that is the same thing every day. It for me feels like a prison. And I actually I think the people that can do that are like special, because how wonderful to know that you are you can switch on, do your job, you can know that you are earning your money, you’re looking after your people, you know, you raise your kids, whatever whatever it is, whatever your life is, and also provide to society and give back your taxes and all that stuff and just be, you know, a good egg. And then go home and switch off again. I just think that’s the most wonderful sensation. Something I've never experienced and probably never will because my mind doesn't work that way.

So for me, the anxiety comes from the fear of going back to that or not being able to provide. And the only way I know how to provide is in a very risky industry where I have to constantly churn out content, I have to constantly create whatever I'm creating in order to earn the money. And that's a scary thought. Yeah, but I also appreciate that it’s... it’s the anxiety comes in the job of it, I think. The freedom comes in the sort of the more I guess meta of it, you know? Like I don't matter, it doesn't whatever the Jim Chapman’s not really of any relevance. But for my life, it's really important that I put food on the table for for Sarah and my child.

And that's funny because, you know, we we always live in now, right? It’s only ever going to be now. And what you're saying is in the now, there is urgency, there is stress. Yeah. It's we never we're never going to live in the future, it's never going to be meta. That’s not the experience we’re ever going to have. Maybe if we meditate we can spend some time there, but day-to-day we live in the we live in the present moment. Um, it's yeah, it's really really interesting to me. And as you say, you're in an industry where a lot of people aren't making a lot of money, right? The creative industry, so it's particularly challenging.

Yeah, very much so. And I think people are following their passion. I think the thing with influencing in particular is that the passion is so easily monetized, but it's also so easy taken away and it's so competitive that it often I think some people are just passionate about the business of it. Now, I don't pretend to have a business mind at all. I haven't got a bloody clue. Like I've got a production company that I've just started with one of my pals and he is in charge of the business. When it comes to my my social media stuff, my management are in charge of the business. I just make the stuff I want to make, the stuff that I think will be good. And I fully believe in letting people do play to their strengths. My strength is not that. So I often get called like an entrepreneur or something, I'm like, "Pff, yeah, alright." I just... it's been it's been luck and timing and really bloody hard work. And the hard work I can I'm in control of. The luck and the timing I'm not. Um, and the other people around me are in charge of sort of looking after like the financial side of it and the admin stuff, you know? It's the admin stuff that I don't...

You hate?

I hate with a fiery passion. Yeah, hate it.

You said just a couple of moments ago the proponents that have made you successful. You said like, you know, luck, hard work, etc., etc. Do you think you could have achieved what you've achieved over the last 10 years without hard work?

No. Absolutely not.

How do you square that with the culture we live in today that is almost viewing hard work as a bit of a toxic thing? I've almost got to the point—I'll never get there because I don't care that much—but I've almost got to the point, and just to say again I will never get there, right? Because I'm not going to lie to people. Where I sometimes feel bad being honest that I wouldn't be here without hard work. I'm not telling you to burn out, right? But I don't know how if I hadn't have sacrificed in the way that I did, I would have... of course, that's my experience. I haven't lived another life. I can only tell you what I have done.

Yeah. I think it's really important... it’s like work hard, play hard, right? It’s really important. I I I posted this on my Instagram stories the other day. It's everyone there’s like you're right, there is a lot of people who are sort of um poo-pooing working hard. "Don't work too hard!" Yeah, there’s also people who like on my Instagram, it comes up all the time, "Hey, I run three businesses and I do this and I'm only 12 years old," and like...

Yeah, but that guy’s trying to sell you a course.

For sure. For sure. That's that's what I mean. Like he’s broke. There’s there's definitely something to be said—and this is where I again this is where I struggle. When you work, work hard. Like I really and and work with passion. Like, you know, again Sarah's dad says says um work is a dirty four-letter word, right? You if you find the other saying, "If you find something you love doing, you'll never work a day in your life," so work really hard and work with passion. But also, stop when you need to stop. Take your time off, enjoy your evenings or, you know, again I've got a job which allows me to work as much or as little as I please. I wish I did like a four-day week. I would very much like to do that so I have a three-day weekend or I take a day off in the middle of the week. I've got the means to do so, just haven't got the brain to do so, you know? Um, and I think that that's a really important distinction. Don't just work all your bloody life and suddenly you're 60 and you've gone, "Oh my God, I haven't like actually enjoyed my experiences."

Um, I haven't actually you know, I've got to do some really bloody incredible experiences and sometimes I'm too busy stressing about what's next in my diary or finishing a thing, meeting a deadline, or even stressing about the key messages I've got to get across when I'm on that adventure that I forget to enjoy the adventure. And it's the biggest sort of um waste of time that my job has within it, you know? Like I remember being in a on a helicopter—and this wasn't me actually, this was this was somebody else who who I recognized in. I was taken away um to New York and was going on a helicopter around Manhattan and it was like, you know, what a cool experience. Like people don't get to do that very often. Um, and this guy was sat next to me in the middle and he couldn't take his picture because he had to lean over me. And I said, "Oh, I'll swap seats with you." The pilot came over the um you know the whatever it said and said, "Oh, don't swap seats because you'll unbalance the helicopter." The guy was so pissed off. He’s said, "No, I want to swap." I'm like, "Well, no, because you'll kill us now." So it's a bit different. I offered you my seat when I didn't think we were going to die for doing it. And he sulked so much because he couldn't get the photo he wanted. And I'm like, that for me really really kind of is the epitome of not enjoying the moment. Like just enjoy the bloody helicopter ride around Manhattan you you idiot.

But that's probably a byproduct of social media or something because, you know, the part of the value of that was for him clearly was being able to tell the world he did it versus being in the moment.

For sure, for sure. And that unfortunately that is the job. We have to tell the world we've done something, otherwise, you know, it hasn't happened, right? And and there's no point taking you me on that really cool experience because if I haven't told anyone about it, sure, you know. So that there is definitely a um a dichotomy there in that you need to prove that you've done it and you need to show your enjoyment, um but you need to also not let that take you out of the moment. And that's a fine line.

One of the things I've been thinking a lot about lately which links completely to that is about because I sit here with people all the time and I and one of the things I keep noticing is that in order for them to actually be happy, they have to try and be a contradiction or two completely different people in separate areas of their life. And a lot of the the lack of success they have either in their work or relationships or whatever or in their personal life comes from them not being able to switch off from being from going like being super successful entrepreneur and then when they get home being loving, patient, you know? And then in the example we've just been talking about there, I would assume happiness would come from being able to do your job and take the photo, but then have experiences where you just don't give a fuck if the world is watching.

That's entirely it.

How do and that's not easy.

No, it's not easy. I um...

And dare I say, the thing that put you on the helicopter might have been the inability to switch off in some degree because hard work, hard work, you're on a freaking helicopter.

Absolutely, totally. I was going to say, I haven't I haven't got to where I am by switching off whenever I choose to. You know what I mean? I've got here because I work harder than I should. Um, and that's a massive sacrifice because I've missed out on moments. I've missed out on um you know like there are times where I should just be more present with Sarah, but I'm too busy working, you know? I miss out on things. But I get to go on the helicopter. But you know, more than that, I get to live a really cool existence. Like I love my job.

So it's it's really difficult. Like my the way I kind of cross that "t", dot that "i", I suppose, is that I will very often much rather pay for a holiday and have a actual holiday rather than just call in a trip. Yeah, it's very easy. I mean, you know, without sounding like a real moron, it's very easy for me to call a trip in if I want to. I just email a PR and say, "Oh, I want to go to Dubai." And they'll go, "Alright, when do you want to go?" Right? But I tend not to because I listen, if a if there’s often times a thing will come to me and it's a place I've never been or experience I've never had and I'll jump on it. But I will tend not to request a free trip because honestly, my time is more valuable than the money I could potentially earn. So I would rather pay my money to go somewhere and switch off and read a book, do the crossword puzzle, hang out, you know, because I value that much more than the money. I think that that's the thing that I think some people put their value in money in my view too high. Um, and I I don't value it like that. I think of my what's what's most important, what I value more is people and time.

One of the other really interesting things you said as we were talking, maybe before we started filming, was you were talking about the things that you're good at writing about with your screenplays. And one of the things that you said was love.

Yeah.

And I thought to myself, I wonder why he's good at writing about love.

Um, I don't know actually. I I I know my my strengths when it comes to writing. And it's one of those things where to begin with, we've all got impostor syndrome, right? Constantly. I still got it 10 years on. But I know I'm good at that. Um, I know I can send the script somewhere. They might not like it, it might not be the thing for them and I get told no quite a lot, but invariably they say, "You know what, great script. You've done a really good job there." Um, so I am confident in my ability there. And I know my strengths are dialogue, um because I write how people talk, but also get the point across. Like I can't... I'm the worst person to watch a film with because if I'm watching something, I'm like, "People don't talk like that! What is going..."

You know? Um, but also love. I I just think I've got I I don't know, I think I'm a bit of an old romantic and it comes down I I think it really for me comes down to how you feel love, you know? If you can feel love and you can put pen to paper, you can write love. Um, and I I I pride myself on trusting and loving like to I'm not a jealous person, I'm not um I'm never going to micromanage a relationship or anything like that. If I love someone, I trust them implicitly. They can do as they wish. They can go out with the boys, whatever. I'm never going to go, "Oh, who did you meet? What happened?" I'm never going to like check their phone, you know? I'm never going to do any of that because if I love someone, I'm all in. Um, and that for me is really important. If you get your fingers burnt, then alright, then you then that’s they get one chance, you know? Um, and that's that's my life.

You had a very public relationship. One that was shared on YouTube for many, many years. You ended up marrying said person, and um and then that relationship ended. Um, difficult I imagine to have that experience in public, right?

Next to impossible. Yeah, like it’s a... you know, we were together for 12 years and most of that time was wonderful, you know? It was really great. Like I say, we conquered the world together. We were we were both part of that first breed of influencers or social media people, and we had a wicked time. And then we grew up together. It was as simple as growing up in slightly different directions, you know? Um, and at some point, you know, the further you go on like that, the wider the gap gets.

I literally just did this for the first time last week on this podcast. I was like, I'm almost starting to see relationships like two parallel lines. And and if you imagine the parallel lines have just a 1% angle either way, right? They’re either going to stay parallel, they’re either going to go away from each other or closer together over time.

Totally. I look back at it now and I realize that actually it probably it was a small a small incline or decline, whichever way you want to put it, but it at some point becomes insurmountable. Becomes a chasm you can't leap anymore, right? So I look back at it and realize that perhaps it um it started much earlier than either of us anticipated, either of us realized. And we just kind of kept getting more and more distant until eventually we were just roommates basically. Um...

Was it hard to break it off when you get to that point because you've got the world watching?

Yeah, it wasn't hard as a couple, because we were both we both knew we deserved better, right? We both knew we're like, "This isn't working." And we took a it took a long time to have the conversation because I think we both tried for a while, like, "Oh, it'll come back around, it'll come back around," but we knew we're not stupid. We both knew we deserved better. So the when we actually had the conversation, it was for both of us quite freeing. Emotional, because of all the time we had together, but quite freeing.

Of course, you’ve then got the audience to think of who make assumptions, right? And God, I've lost count of the amount of times I've been called a cheater. Um, just and poor old Sarah gets called my mistress constantly. I didn't even know Sarah existed. Like she was not a person to me until well after we broke up, you know? Like I met her on an app and like I'm really I'm really tempted at some point sometimes to get the app—I haven't got it anymore—but I want to redownload it and find our conversation and go, "Look, we started talking on this date!" just to just to prove the point because it’s not Sarah didn't sign up for this shit, you know? She fell in love with me, um and it just so happens that I come with a bit of an audience who have opinions on things.

And, you know, we all gossip, right? You we’ve all got opinions on things. I watch people go through break- breakups on TV or I watch like the drama with say Megan and Harry or whatever and and I have my thoughts and my feelings on it. Um, but of course, I'm not going to DM them about it, you know? Um, and I think that is the issue that on the internet there’s sort of anonymity. And people can say things thinking there’s no repercussions.

I lost my shit the other day on social media because and I never address it. I'm very much of the, like I said earlier, I I I'm inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. So I can take hate, I’ve got a thick skin, it doesn’t it bounces straight off, I don’t care. Like this I said, this is my job. It’s not a personal reflection on me, so whatever. But somebody had DM’d Sarah a bunch of pictures of my old relationship, my previous life, and said, "You’ll never match up to her," and then had sent another one saying, "And your child deserves to be miscarried."

And I lost my shit, and I’d never have never behaved this way online, but I went straight to my Instagram stories and I told the person I said, "Fuck you" to the person. Um, and also I was very mad and perhaps I should have let cooler heads prevail. But actually, the amount of support I had off the back of it, people saying, "You know what, bloody right. Stand up for stand up for Sarah, stand up for yourself, stand up for your child."

And I we’ve had two years of it, right? Because me and Tanya broke up just over two years ago. Me and Sarah got together, I don't know, like as far as the world is concerned, a few months later. But obviously that wasn't it because the world only found out me and Tanya broke up when we decided to tell them. And we only decided to tell them when we did because the press found out. So actually it was much earlier than anyone realizes. Because we were trying to get our heads around it and work out how to do it with minimal um sort of like minimal backlash, minimal negative energy, right? Because we didn't have any towards each other at all. Um, but when it comes to when it comes to me being called a cheater or whatever, whatever, it's fine, it bounces back off. I I hold my head high. Everybody who I know and care about and respect and love knows what really happened. And that's what really matters to me, I don't care. But when it comes to somebody calling my pregnant fiancé the names they called her and saying that my baby should be miscarried, that's where I draw the line.

The person that sent that message, you know that they they probably wanted that reaction.

Yeah, I do. Um, I one of the best pieces of advice I was ever given was "Don't play around in the mud with the pigs because you'll both get dirty but the pigs will love it," right? So I live by a motto of "never explain, never complain." I don't I own my decisions. Like I own my life. I'm an adult. I don't have to explain myself to anyone should I not wish to, right? Simple. Um, I am confident in my ability and my decisions that I'm like, this is the path I'm choosing and you can like it or lump it, basically.

But I felt like making an example—I didn't out anyone, I didn't say any names, I didn't, you know, share any usernames—but I felt like making an example of that person, especially with it being so out of character for me to do so, would have overall a positive consequence for the people who were thinking it but weren't writing it, or the people that were thinking of writing it. And actually, do you know what? Sarah’s getting much less of it now. I'm getting much less of it now. Um, so I think in a way it was almost like cost-benefit analysis in a way, you know?

I I weigh these things up and I think there's always going and I've been thinking a lot lately because um there was a couple of my friend is the global head of social media at Manchester United. And there's a lot of black players. And so when the team loses what you see on the black players' Instagrams is lots of monkey emojis. And um it's actually awfully my friend called me and he said, "What do we do about this?" Right? And he said, "We're going to take this stance um as a club," and, you know, they we talked a little bit about it on like our WhatsApp group or whatever, and the club stood up, changed the cover photos and said like, "Manchester United against racism," the players got more racism. Because shining a light on it... it’s like it's almost like it's not a real thing.

How to explain this? It's it could be some 14-year-old kid who's who's leaving these monkey emojis who is actually quite an okay person, but they just have this thing in them where they want a bit of attention. They see you or Marcus Rashford, it's not really a real human, an idol. And so they think just leaving that... they’re not like an inherently bad person. But when you get anonymity and you get and we all have this, you know, envy in us that comes from somewhere, you know, the lifeboat analogy. And so like I'm I’m I don't know what I'm basically saying is like I don't think we're ever going to be able to cure that problem. The only way I've actually seen is I think you’d kill 99% of it if social networks went anonymous and you had to upload your passport. Because I think if if you connect real-world consequences to behavior, I fully agree. It's why you don't get your dick out in public. It’s well not that that's not why, but it's like... it's the only reason some people stop! It’s why you don't go up to someone and say those things in public because there's real-world consequences.

I totally agree. I think I think people should have there should be some sort of like identification process when you set up an account. I totally agree with it because the amount I get, the amount Sarah gets, um is it’s a real bloody shame as well because especially because these people are like supposed to be—and I use this in inverted commas—fans. They’re supposed to care about my life, my existence. They're supposed to, you know, they they followed me for a reason. Um, and I refuse to believe, especially because I'm a like to think I'm a force for positivity. I tend I talk real talk and I share real things, but even when I'm talking about mental health or a bigger issue, I do so from a stance of positivity, right? At least I try to. So I refuse to believe that somebody is that negative or hates me that much.

But in six million—you’ve got I know six—how many followers you got?

Uh, on well across everything, I don’t even think I've got two on YouTube, two on Insta, just over two on Twitter... I don't know about Facebook, you know?

Say six, seven, eight, whatever, but then you're reaching more people. You know, the people that follow you aren't the ones that you're reached...

Yeah, of course.

If you took that many people and thought probabilistically how many of them would just not be like okay people but have the capability of sending an awful message? There's going to be fucking thousands.

Yeah. You also guarantee that when I do like for example when I announced that Sarah and I were pregnant, um I went on to Twitter and I was I was trending. And I haven't trended for years. I was like, "Oh, this is fun, I haven't trended for so long." So I was going through it. And 99% of it was really positive. But there was a lot of it that was just like um you know a little bit of hate. And I had a really good time responding to some of it. Not like I wasn't saying anything like for example someone was like, "Jim Chapman still exists and he's not with Tanya and he's having a baby, who knew?" And I just retweeted it responding going, "I know, right? What a turn up for the books! I am I'm still alive, who knew?" Um, so nothing like I didn't respond to real negativity, just people going, "Wow, that's like that's a funny old story, oh it's not Tanya." Um, and like I really enjoyed like I I I actually found that good fun because by drawing attention to it, these people were then like, "Oh my God, I love you, you're the best!" Because obviously I've let them know that I've seen it and that I'm not tolerating bullshit but also I don't care enough that I'm going to write something really negative back. I'm just sort of like, "Yeah, I see that, I acknowledge it, I am here, I'm also a human." And it's yeah it's a really interesting sort of phenomenon that people can write what they want without any sort of consequence. But when you give them consequences, they'll suddenly be like, "Oh wow, you've noticed me!"

Shall I tell you a really funny funny thing that happened this week? This weekend, it’s yesterday. Um, there's this story that came out in the press, something that I've done. This kid had like DM’d me a he had made me a Wikipedia page and was like, "I thought you deserved one, so I made one." And I offered him a job in 10 minutes. I said, "You what a great show of initiative, you've shown your writing skills, like come work with us." It was in the papers. There's this like Facebook page where one of the articles in the papers was posted. There's 60 comments. 59 of them are like amazing, right? And then there's this one comment which is like really fucking... it was like, "Steve Bartlett is like an evil guy, he..." they said that I made a PR story out of the Manchester bombings because we raised a huge amount of we let our team have the day off and we and we raised a huge amount of money for the families of the of the victims. And I and so he wrote all this awful stuff about me and I screenshotted it and I went I messaged the guy and I said, "Could you like..." I sent him the screenshot and went, "Could you explain this?" I've never seen someone just completely change. And I said and one of the things I said to him was, "Would you would you be okay with me sharing this on my channels?" Guess what he said?

Well, obviously not.

Absolutely not. And I was never going to share it on my channels. But I I said, "Why wouldn't why can't I share it in public?"

Well, because he's written it on a public forum, right?

He’s written it on a public forum. Why can't I share it on my channels? Why wouldn't you like three million people seeing that? And and he was like he literally I went, "Do I have your permission to share this?" and he went, "Absolutely not." I was like, "Do I have your permission to respond to it publicly?" "Absolutely not." And it was just fascinating to see the behavior because he obviously A, was in this Facebook group, didn't expect me to see it, you know. And this is I'm trying to over the last couple of I guess months trying to understand how to deal with this social media-centric, often group-think driven... because I'm sure all the cheating stuff was one idiot and then they’re like, "Yeah, must be!"

Oh, yeah, yeah, it was a group of people. I would say Tanya's never said anything. Um, she’s never come out and called me a cheater. She hasn't done the opposite, um like I have, if I'm being totally frank about it, like you know, I've sort of said there was nothing...

You’ve addressed it.

I've addressed it. I’m trying to... I moved on first. Sure, as far as the world is concerned. You know what I mean? Like it’s really hard to say this without sort of making accusations or whatever, but as far as the world knows, I moved on first. It's not necessarily... I should stop there. But it's it’s tricky to be accused of something when they've only got limited information to use, right? So because people see that I moved on first, they think that perhaps I cheated. So for me saying I didn't cheat and for Sarah saying I didn't cheat with Jim, um it doesn't necessarily prove anything, right? Because of course we're going to say that because we want to deny our infidelity, right? Um, and it’s tricky to keep going back to it and keep saying the same thing, especially when it's so unfounded. Um, but there’s a point where you just have to let it go. Right? You can't you can't change everyone's opinion about it. Like I said, like there’s there’s like a load of people watching you they all have opinions on you, good or bad. And the perks of this job is that we get paid well for it and that we get to live a bloody adventure. Like it’s so cool! I never expected this for my life, I never expected to be able to do the stuff I get to do and live the life I get to live. It was never planned out for me, I never had like um the tools in place for it. I found myself here and I’ve grabbed on with both hands and I’ve worked really hard to maintain it. So that’s the perk of being in a position I'm in. Unfortunately, it comes with a few drawbacks, which is that people make opinions on you. And you just have to not care so much.

Not easy though.

It’s not easy at all. Especially when they message your fiancé.

It’s not easy at all, especially also when it's so untrue. Um and yeah and and also there's no way to rectify it.

There’s no way I can rectify it. Yeah, or Sarah, basically.

That’s difficult, that's really difficult.

It is very difficult. Yeah.

And you must have this you see these falsehoods in the comment sections, you must instinctively be like, "Nah, that’s not true. And it’s harmful to my relationship, to whatever. I need to fix that."

And I still really value Tanya. We're still we're still mates. So, you know, I'm I’m never going to I'm not going to um make a big thing. I try to just when it comes up in conversation, I'll just say, "Yeah, it's this. We grew apart," right? Because I I respect her and I value her and I I'm I don't want to keep bringing it up all the time. Because also it doesn't define either of us. People break up all the time, unfortunately they don't always break up in public. But it doesn't define us. We both still have our careers, we both still have our lives, we both still have our people. Um and that’s very important. It’s just a shame that it comes up so frequently and it's so um untrue.

I had a sex therapist, a relationship therapist, on this podcast um two weeks ago. And she said a really lovely sentence which I haven't been able to forget. And she said, "Just because a relationship ends doesn't mean it wasn't successful."

I still look at us as very successful. Yeah. Like I said, we ticked all our boxes. The next thing for us was what I'm now doing with Sarah. And um I see now that Tanya would not have been the person to do that with, you know? Sarah 100% is and there are things that I have with her that I've never experienced before. Um and I'm very lucky. Like I said earlier, I I feel like when when Tanya and I started going separate directions, separate ways, um it was earlier than I think either of us kind of gave credence to. Um and so if we had have done if, you know, if I had have done the things I'm now doing with Sarah with Tanya, it I don't think our it would have been for the best, you know? Whereas now I'm I know that Sarah’s my person. I've learned a lot, I know what I'm worth, I know what I can expect from a partner, um and it’s it’s really I've never experienced it this way. It’s really lovely, it’s really fruitful, it's really rewarding, it's really dynamic and it's really reciprocal.

Did you have a list of attributes? I was talking to a couple of friends the other day, um mixed gender group, and they one of them posed the question, "Like, what's on your list for an ideal partner?" Um so you're with a partner, so I'm saying what my question to you is: what did you look for? But also, I want you to answer the second question which is: what does a partner need to offer Jim in order to be a good partner?

Uh, okay. What partner needs to offer me, I think, um that I I need to—like I said earlier, if I if I love someone, I trust them 100%, right? I expect the same in return. I can't deal with jealousy, I can't deal with someone checking up on me. If I'm out or if I'm doing something, I I'm not going to humor it because it's not me and I don't want anyone to consider that it might be me. And if as my partner you're thinking, "Oh, he's out somewhere, he's with someone he shouldn't be," then I haven't got time for it. So I expect that.

But also, I I expect to be appreciated and reciprocated. Um, you know, I know it’s complicated, it doesn't happen all the time. There are times when you're in a bad mood or whatever. But as I was walking here, Sarah texted me saying, "I know I haven't said it loads because um I'm just feeling really sick, you know, with the pregnancy and everything," but she went, "My baby has hit the jackpot with a dad," you know, "and like I just want you to know that I really do appreciate you. Um, and I haven't said it much lately." And that's that's all I need.

Why does that matter to you so much?

Because I need to I want to know that I'm valued. Um, and that's that’s that's the thing for me. I don't care...

Why?

Um because if I'm going to give someone my all and like I said earlier, if I'm in love with someone they get everything. They get all my stuff if it's stuff they care about, they get all my time, they get everything, right? Um, and I need to know that there's value in me giving myself.

Does that link to your childhood at all?

Perhaps. Yeah, perhaps. I I just fully believe and maybe this is why I write love well. I fully believe that if I'm with someone, they've got it all, right? I don't believe in I don't mean that in like a really um codependent way because that's like the worst, you know, if you're kind of encouraging each other into something. I feel like you both need to live your life independently but make a good team and like you when you team up together thing good stuff happens, basically.

And yeah, perhaps but but I think but I think that I for me, if I'm not if I don't feel like I'm valued enough, if I don't feel like what I'm giving isn't appreciated or my worst nightmare is being tolerated. Like if I'm with someone and they just go, "Yeah, alright," and they just they just tolerate me, I'm out the door. Um because I'm too good for that. Like I have value. I and everybody does, I'm not saying me as an individual, each and every single person has their value, right? They deserve to be appreciated for that value. And if they're with someone who doesn't appreciate it, takes it for granted, um whatever, then you're not with the right person, you know? I think that you you need someone who um respects you and appreciates you um and who sees your worth, um perhaps more than you do. I mean, I I don't see myself that clearly sometimes. Um and Sarah will often often say like, you know, the text she sent me saying, you know, "My baby's hit the jackpot with with the dad that they've got coming up" is, you know, that means a lot to me. Haven't had a chance to reply yet, but I will after this and that that is a really big thing. Doesn't take such little effort for her to send, but it means a shit lot to me.

Have you heard about love languages?

Yeah.

Have you ever done the old love language test? Have you?

Never. No. I tend not to—not that I don't believe in that stuff, I just tend not to um I think ignorance is bliss sometimes. Because if I'm if I'm super aware of it, then I don't know if it... like I said earlier with the therapy, right? When you're aware of your your thing, your stuff, and then you do it more, you're like, "Ah," and until you learn the tools of how to overcome it or how to at least challenge it, it’s frustrating. And I feel like if I learned that I was this way inclined, every time I did it I’d have to go, "Shit, come..." like apparently apparently I'm like the archetypal Capricorn.

You want to do your love languages now?

Go on, shall we? Yeah.

I did mine and it's actually really, you know, I'm not that guy. I'm not like a I don't look at the the sun and decide what's going to happen tomorrow because of the way the planets are, but the love language thing is based on asking you a bunch of questions about like what you value more. So ultimately it comes out with an answer and it says Jim Chapman values when someone does this. And yours would be words of affirmation or or recognition. Mine is slightly different, we'll talk about mine later, but um we're going to do your love language now.

This is going to drive me mental for the rest of my life now. Like I said, like apparently I am the most archetypal Capricorn and every time I do anything that’s sort of Capricorn-y now—and I never really believed in this sort of stuff—every time I do anything now, I'm like, "Dammit, the bloody stars told me!" or something.

Okay, here we go. Okay, so me and Jim have just completed the full love language survey which took um about 10 minutes and his results...

Why am I nervous?

I know everything about you and I'm looking at all of your results here. Um, so it says, and this is not surprising, this is what I expected from our conversation up until that point. Jim's primary love language is words of affirmation. Right. Actions don't always speak louder than words. If this is your love language, unsolicited compliments mean the world to you. Hearing the words "I love you" are important, hearing the reasons behind that love um sends your spirits skyward, insults can leave you shattered and are not easily forgotten, kind encouraging and supportive words are truly life-giving to you. And you rank as a 33% on words of affirmation, which is high. You rank as 3% on receiving gifts.

Right.

17% on acts of service, and then physical touch and quality time you rank the same.

Okay. I would say gifts, I think it might mean more to somebody else, I think that my job comes with a lot of stuff. So I don't really care about it so much. Um, I'd agree with that. Um, like I said earlier, we get lots of hate and it bounces off, but if the hate comes from someone I love, that’s an issue, yeah.

If it's an insult as well, that...

Yeah, yeah, that’s that’s a problem if it comes from someone um that I care about. Um, yeah, do you know what, I'm really lucky because Sarah does all that. She actually does most of everything, um which is great, um and I'm genuinely, I'm very fortunate to have her. Um, she is everything that I want. And I use the word want and not need, because I think that’s the difference between codependency and um like a healthy relationship. I don't need her. I would be fine, my life would continue. But she brings a little um a little spice, a little something extra, you know what I mean? Um and and it’s much more enjoyable to have her by my side for everything. For sure.

So what's next for you then? You you're working on a lot, we were talking about this off-air.

Yeah, I am. Um I'm always working on on stuff, because I like I said, just I just love creating. Um so I have just started a production company with my friend. We started in January or February last year, so just as the world like exploded. But actually, do you know what? It’s given us the chance to really knuckle down. Um and we've got some really good headway so far. Um, we're having lots of big conversations with important people and people seem to like our stuff.

I we do scripted and unscripted. So I head up the sorry I head the scripted stuff, so my writing. So far we've got a couple of films on the go, writing a book, um I'm also working on a like a a show, like a series. Um and then we've got a bunch of unscripted stuff that I also chip in on, um but that’s very much James, my my business partner's, very much his sort of um wheelhouse. Um and the difference in time it all takes. So he's constantly having meetings and constantly like churning stuff out, whereas my stuff takes a lot longer. So I often feel like I'm not pulling my weight. But then I'll send him like I just sent him a document yesterday which is 20,000 words long which took me two weeks to write and it's like a an entire breakdown beat-by-beat of how I see this new thing working. And he's like, "Oh, so you're doing stuff!" So it’s it's weird, but I think um we both we both are really invested in that. We're both really good at what we do, we're successful in our own rights. Um but I think there's something special about working on something that’s just for passion. We don't need this to work, we just really really want it to, and that’s really exciting, you know?

If they say, "Oh, you know, Jim Chapman was a success 10 years from now," what would they mean? What would that mean to you?

I mean, for me, if I was saying it about myself, it would it would mean that I in terms of of work, it would mean that I was respected in my field. Um it would mean that the people who my contemporaries appreciated my input. Um but more than that, if it were just in general success, it would mean that I got out okay. You know what I mean? I came out the other side of this and um I have I'm content. For me, contentment is sort of like a a goal, you know? And I don't think it is for many people. Um I don't want to stress about stuff unnecessarily, I don't want to constantly strive for more. Um I don't feel like it's necessary. I want to be really happy with what I've got. And I have that very in spades with my people, my family, my friends, um Sarah, my my baby on the way. I've got more contentment than I can throw a stick at.

I don't have it in terms of my career because I'm constantly worried about where it goes.

Will you ever?

I hope I do. I hope I I think what what it would take is um a project that is very successful, say with my writing, and then people come to me rather than me constantly knocking on doors. You know what I mean? It’d be really nice to be in a position where they go, "Hey, you wrote that thing and it did really well. I want to give you opportunities now rather than me chasing it." Um and I have that in terms of the social media, like I'm very lucky to be in the position I'm in which is sort of I've been doing it for a very long time and have a good name for myself so people often come to me. I don't have it in my the other part of my job and I'd love that. But I'm still new in it. I’ve only been doing it, you know, like I say, been writing the first screenplay three and a half years, but that only got to a point where it was worth talking about a year ago, you know? So it’s still very much in its infancy. So I I just hope that I get to a point where people um like my stuff and go, "You know what, you're really good at this. Let's work with you on this project." You know?

You're in the proving yourself phase, right?

I think so.

In terms of this new industry, right? And and a lot of people are, a lot of very talented people are. And in fact, it appears, we actually had Noel Clarke sat in the chair before you.

Right. I know, yeah.

And and he talks about his own journey and he he was knocked back so many times by the industry um that he was like, "Fuck it, I had to eventually try and create my own path, like create my own movies." And he’s now at a point where, you know, if he’s got an idea, he’s not necessarily knocking on doors and having to audition.

He churns them out! He’s yeah, he’s killing it. Um and I think...

And he’s what, 15 years into that game, 20 years into that game?

Totally. It takes a long time and a lot of it, unfortunately, is who you know, not what you know. Yeah, but...

Timing, success, the luck, all these...

All of that. Um, but, you know, I if it doesn't happen, it won't be through lack of trying. Um and I won't hold it against myself, I won't be I won't feel like a failure. Um because I don't I don't really believe in that. I I believe you can be a failure if if you quit and never try. Never try at all, right? But if you don't make it and you and you've given it a good bloody shot, then, you know, you've done better than most. That’s the way I see it.

Yeah, I said it, I tweeted it the other day and I was in the gym and I thought about it and I thought, you know, the the concept of worry and fear are so illogical because, you know, no human has ever done more than their best. Right. And even on my shit days where I'm like really unproductive and whatever, bad mood or whatever, that was actually still my best that day.

Yeah, for sure.

By definition. So this, you know, um but it's it's fascinating and I um I looking over your story and your career, one of the the key things I saw was this temptation from you to like resist your labels and to and to not be sucked into the world telling you who you are.

Yeah, I think it doesn't really you know what, it's one of those things where you meet people and the second question they ask you is what you do for a living, the first being, "Hi, what's your name?" Right? And there's more to all of us than what we do. Like I said earlier, my job isn't what what I my job is what I do, not who I am, right? So I don't like being Jim Chapman, YouTuber. You know? Um...

Stifling. It’s like a box.

It’s totally a box and in the same way that in the same way that, you know, an accountant might not want to just be called an accountant, you know, there's more to him, he’s he’s got his own life and whatever. Um I just feel like it’s it’s pigeonholing and and it’s tricky in this industry because people don't like you being good at more than one thing. If you're written about um in the press or whatever, it's probably for you "entrepreneur," I’d imagine, right? For me, it's "YouTuber" still. Um and actually, like I say, that's a small part of I upload one video a week and I’ve only been doing that since we found out we were pregnant because now it's exciting to talk about stuff. Other than that, I haven't uploaded for six months. You know what I mean? So there's more to us. We’re allowed to explore new avenues, do new things.

But I think for the sake of um society understanding who what box you fit in, right? Because in an article, they have to use a word so that the reader knows, and they can't say "Jim Chapman" and then list your your skills. Yeah, yeah, right, so they’re like, "Box! Which box?" Right. And I understand it because it’s how we even down to like, you know, the a simple individual level, we all stereotype because...

Prejudice.

Yeah, I mean that’s just psychologically it makes sense. Because...

Survival.

Totally, and it gives us sort of like categories to work from. If you're walking down the street and you see every single person as an individual, it’s sensory overload. So you see someone in say a certain clothing, in a suit, and you’re like, "Ah, okay, you're a banker." He might not be, he might just like wearing a suit, but in your head that’s what he’s done because it's easier just to sort of carry on with your day, compartmentalize.

Imagine if we didn't. Imagine if, you know, lion running towards us we thought, "I wonder if this is a good lion." Do you know what I mean?

I I said this to Sarah just the other day. We were having a conversation, quite a heated conversation, about something. And um she's I call her worst-case scenario Sarah quite a lot because she often will catastrophize. Right. And I said, "You're the kind of person that sees someone running and you assume they're running from, I don't know, a crime or a gun or something. I'm the kind of person that assumes they're running towards a bus." Yeah, because I I I see the world as neutral, right? I don't think the world has an opinion on me. Um but I see my people as positive.

And I know there's lots of negativity out there, but um I don't see the world as that kind of place in general. Whereas some people I think are geared up to think the worst. It's like um, you know, the whole fight and flight thing. Um some people are geared I think I think I'd probably die, right? Because I'd be geared up to see a stick as a stick. Whereas actually, it makes much more sense to see a stick as a snake, because on the one time it is a snake, you don't die. Whereas I'd go, "Oh, it's a stick," and then get bitten and die. Um so I think um if it were 200,000 years ago I would be no good. But actually in today’s society I do alright because I just like to see I think inherently I just see the world as a neutral or or at best positive. Um I don't want to think that everybody running is running from an explosion. You know, it’s just not the way I choose to see the world.

I think that's a much healthier way to see the world.

I'd like to think so.

I think it’ll take you much further.

We'll see.

But anyway, listen, thank you so much for your time today. I think you're an incredibly inspiring guy, not least because of what you've achieved, but because of your willingness to be honest.

Thank you.

And I think, you know, a lot of the stuff you've shared about your childhood and being open as a man about the you know the impact therapy has had on you, I think is such an admirable thing. And even your call to, you know, to men to go to therapy I think is something that I can completely get behind. Right. Um there's been so much stigma around it for, you know, you know, a bunch of historical reasons which as a society we're overcoming but I but I really applaud you for that. And I'm super excited to see what you do next. You're you're clearly someone that's A, brilliantly talented, B, incredibly hard-working. And um yeah, and that mixed with your your self your huge amount of self-awareness I think is going to make for some unbelievable work.

I hope so. I also think that it could go totally the opposite way. But either way, you know, I I will I know whatever I do, I'll do to the best of my ability, you know? So if even if it doesn't go the way I intend, I'll find the next thing. You know, I'm smart enough to do that.

Thank you.

Thank you.

[Outro Music]

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