Jesse Lingard Reveals The Dark Reality Of Being A World Class Football Player
Guests: Jesse
Full transcript · Read the full conversation in order, with its original context.
§01Transcript — part 1
What was going through my head at that time, I do not know. I was drinking, just trying to take the pain away. It's tough, man. And Lingard! Absolutely fantastic! Jesse Lingard missed two times! With club at Man United, obviously it's all big. They can have that control over you. What? People have a voice. Jesse, he asked if we could give him a couple of days off. When things are getting said about you that's not true, you're gonna voice your opinion.
I knew I needed to salute. Do you have a suspicion why you won't pick? You do, don't you? I can see it in your face. So this is the whole thing, what happened. Is there a day that you look back on and you go, that was the hardest day? getting that much abuse and I'm already down enough and I've got to perform. I was still trying to be Jesse like, hey, banter, banter jokes and that, but of course it's gonna affect me. He's not done much at all this season.
I'm already going through things you don't know about. I felt like I had a word on my shoulders. In 2019, your mother was admitted to hospital. She couldn't really cope anymore. Did you ever figure out what the root cause of your mother's depression was? I think as soon as she had me, to be honest, Give me your context. What is the, take me right back to when you were in those early years as you signed and joined Manchester United, I think at seven years old.
What was life like? If I'd been in your home, if I'd been in your surroundings, in your environment, what was life like? Life was good. Obviously, mum and dad split up at an early age, especially when I was born, which can make things a lot difficult. But I still had the desire, the hunger to go in training. My grandad took me in training, you know, week in, week out. You know, I had trials at Everton, City, Liverpool. So my grandad was driving up and down the motorway constantly.
to support me and take me to training and games. And then I obviously made a decision to sign for United at nine years old. We had a great team, like Pogba, Ravel in the team. So we had a great team. I think outside of that, obviously my mum was very supportive, my dad was very supportive. He was football mad. So I think that support system, especially at an early age, is important. Did everybody in your circle around you have high hopes for your career when you were that age, about 10, 12, 13?
Did they think you were going to be a professional football player? I think my granddad did. Your granddad did? Yeah. He, I mean, was on the Ashtoreth pretty much every day, practicing skills, learning new things. And he had the belief that I'd be a footballer. And, you know, if it wasn't for him, then I wouldn't have been in the situation that I'm in because he took time out of his day to take me on the Ashtoreth, you know, practice. My brother would come down, my dad would come down.
You know, we played one touch. two-touch football pretty much on a regular basis. And that was my happy place, that's where I'm most happy, on a football pitch. And like I said, my granddad was very important in putting me into Liverpool, into City, into United on trials because people recognised their talent, but he was there to push me. I was watching the documentary and I saw a granddad who looked... It's rare to see... I mean, one might expect a dad or a mother to be that pushy and direct and critical.
But to see a granddad being that savage with you at times was quite surprising. Can you give me a... For anybody that hasn't seen it, can you give me a flavour of how... How tough he was at times. Well, he got banned a couple of times. Like, when I say we're 12 years old, we're playing Stoke away. And he's come on the pitch after the game and said, you're not fit to wear the shirt. Your granddad's a bet you. He said, you're not fit to wear the shirt.
None of you are fit to wear the shirt. I'm thinking, like, the coach is looking at me. I'm like, I can't do nothing. He had me on weights at... 10 years old, lifting weights, went to Man United and said to one of the coaches, Tony Whedon at the time, he said, I'm getting my grandson into, because obviously he was a powerlifter for Great Britain. So he wanted me on the weights at an early age to try and build a bit of muscle because I was always small.
He kind of drove that from being a powerlifter for Great Britain. kind of passed it down to me. Mum was a gymnast, so it was kind of tough on her as well. Mum took it the wrong way, because obviously she wanted to be a gymnast, but it was so hard on her that eventually she quit on that. But even with me, some games I'd not play the best, and you get in the car on the way home, and I'd say, look, my toe was sore today. Trying to make excuses Because he was so like Hard on me But he was trying to push Like he came from a good place You know what I'm saying So the reason why your mother quit gymnastics was because he was so hard on her?
Yeah, it was so tough, I know. And obviously she didn't have really the motivation to carry on. Probably she weren't strong enough to carry on that. But for me, I always knew I wanted to be a footballer. So having my granddad, my dad, my mum around me at the time, trying to push me, And it was difficult even at earlier stages because I was living out on mum's couple of days and my granddad's a couple of days. And he's only down the road, it's literally five minutes.
But like I say, my mum couldn't really cope with me at the time. So I was back and forth from my nan and granddad's a lot. And then, like I say, driving up and down the motorway, Liverpool, straight back to Manchester. I would train at Liverpool for one day, have a game for United the next day. So, you know, he put the artage in, you know, to get me where I want to be today. You said that your mother couldn't really cope with you at the time. What do you mean by that?
It's depression. Should be in bed all day. Most days, you know, I'd go in, ask for money for the ice cream, like, still be in bed. So, me, I was happy-go-lucky. Like, I'm bubbly, like, what's it gonna play out? We play football with my friends. And you don't understand, you know, the situation that, you know, your mother's in at the time was so young, so I didn't really understand what was going on until, obviously, it got brought to light, you know, maybe...
Probably say... Probably say, I don't know, about 16, 17. You can kind of understand, like, what she's going through and things. But she'll never talk about it. She'll always bottle it up. So your mother was... suffering from depression, even when you were very, very young. But at that time, you just didn't realise what it was. No, didn't know what it was. Did she know what it was? I think she knew, yeah. But she would never at the time, we didn't have really a support system to support her.
She didn't have really people around her that she could go to. She can go to my PA now and go to the doctors and she would sort all that out. But at that time, obviously I think she knew what it was, but She couldn't really cope with it. She couldn't really, didn't know how to deal with certain things. And, you know, for me, I'm just a kid, so I want to play out, have fun, play football. But for her, she's wanted to go be in bed, like, all day. She could drop me off at school, well, she could drop me off at school at eight o'clock in the morning and then sleep until three o'clock until she picks me up.
That's how bad it was. Like, she was, we were really going through it. So she'd sleep all night, wake up to drop you to school and then go back to bed? Mm-hmm. Yeah. She'd sleep in the daytime, pick me up from school, probably go back to bed again, just lay in bed. Like, curtain shut, dark room, everything. And then, obviously, you know, bath me, whatever, before I go to bed. And then she'll sleep all night. Over the last 10 years or so, people have become more aware of what depression and mental health is.
And this is kind of why I ask if your mother knew what it was. Because 10 years ago, if I'm being completely honest, there was a real stigma around mental health. It was kind of seen as someone just kind of being a bit crazy. And over the last 10 years, thankfully, we've gotten to a point where we have a better understanding that we have physical and mental health. And this is why I say, did your mother know what it was? Did she just think she was just sad or she didn't have motivation?
Or did she know she was depressed? Yeah, I think it was probably the motivation part. She couldn't get out of bed. She couldn't motivate herself to get out of bed. Even when I woke up. I was dying for her to be there and I think she came for the quarter finals and that just made me so happy because in her situation, you know, not getting out of bed, not having the motivation but she found that motivation to come and see her son play at World Cup.
That was, like, I told her, like, I was really proud of her. Like, it was brave what he did. you know, every day in bed, depressed, no motivation. And just to find that little bit of motivation, just to come and see, you know, a son at the World Cup. And don't forget she's got, you know, I've got my little sister and little brother as well. So, you know, she's got to deal with them as well, which is always tough. But like I say, to find that motivation to come and see me at World Cup was important for me, especially.
Because I wanted her there anyway, regardless. And I didn't even know she was coming until I was in the line-up singing the national anthem, I've seen her. You've seen her? Yeah. And it just gave me goosebumps straight away. I was so emotional after that. And I wanted to perform at the highest level and win the game. I think there's a video on my Instagram of me hugging her for like two, three minutes. I've seen it. And it's the same things that can make you happier, you know, as a person, but just to be there and get up and get changed and get dressed and have that motivation to see a son at a World Cup, that's what made me happy.
This is a bit of a difficult question because it's not always obvious, but did you ever figure out where or what the root cause of your mother's depression was? Not really, no, I think. I think as soon as she had me, to be honest, I think it was just difficult for her to handle having a child. Like I say, my nan and granddad, you know, took over most of the time, but, you know, she was still there, she was still a mother, but it was just hard for her to deal with it.
Yeah. You know, we had certain instances where, you know, we'd be in bed and she'd be, like, trying to stretch my legs and that. I'm like, what's going on? What's happening there? I didn't know what was going on. I didn't know she had depression at the time when I was at such a young age. But for her, it was just normal, like, normal for her. And she's like, you know, stretching my legs. Like, you've got training tomorrow. And I'm like... What's going on?
I didn't realise what was going on. So she had them phases where she'd do some extraordinary stuff. Stretching your legs, I'm confused. Yeah, just like stretching my goings out, like, before we went to sleep. Just like, it was strange for me, because I knew I'd train the next day, but for her that was probably natural and normal. Do you know what I mean? Like, it still doesn't resonate with me today. It probably doesn't resonate with her today, of what was going through her head at the time, especially when I was born.
Like, could she handle that situation of having a kid? So you're saying basically before you would go to sleep, she was stretching your legs in a way that didn't make sense? Like as in? Yeah, I was just like, I just want to go to sleep. Like, why? Well, I would never question like, I would never question her. But she would just do like, extraordinary stuff. And this lasted, this has lasted up until today, since as young as you can remember till today.
Yeah. And I think she'll still always have depression, but she can cope with it now, she can handle it. Because, like I said, we've got the right support system around. But still, it's, like I say, I've got my little brother and sister. She looks after her. You know what? She's come on, my mum's come on leaps and bounds, to be honest. Especially from, like, even a documentary. She was nervous to do that. Like, she was crying in the car. Like, the director spoke to her.
I said, you're going to be involved in it. She was crying. Like, didn't know if she was caught with it. But, you know, she's found the courage, found the motivation to do it. And that's still a big thing, even though she's going through what she's going through. But like I say, we can handle certain situations now. Emotions. You said about bottling up your emotions. And generally, you know, I think men in particular have a real problem with kind of expressing their emotions for various reasons because, you know, we're macho and masculine and whatever else.
But did you learn at a young age at all how to express your emotions? Did you have models in your life where people were emotionally expressive? No. Only with... Only with my mum and my nan and granddad. I would always say, love you, like, how are you? You OK? But, like, dad's side, like, not much. Like, rarely hug, more of a, you know, fist bump, but, you know, sometimes you ought to see that loving side, especially from, you know, our father. And me becoming a father as well, that's all I want to do with Hope.
Tell her a lover, express emotion to her. So I mainly got it from my mum's side, grandad, nan, mainly. Like I say, I think my dad's come to a realisation where we've seen the documentary and... ..what's the point in... It's a short life, what's the point in... in arguing all the time, because my mum and dad have never seen Ai Tai, so I can understand it from my mum's perspective where, you know, she don't want to see him, but my dad's come to our realisation where it's like, look, let's get together, let's have a coffee, let's sit down, you know, documentary really, you know, walk him up and realise life's too short to, you know, because it'll be coming games, He'd be asking like, is your mum in the box?
Who's in the box? Who's in the box? And I'm like, my mum. I'll sit in the stands then. I know it shouldn't be like that, but that's how it is. But he wants that togetherness again, but I can never see my mum doing it. I can never see my mum giving him time of day, to be honest. Has your mum been able to find a new partner since... She picks... Yeah, she picks... Not the best people, to be honest. She picks a lot of narcissists. But... She kind of thrives off that for some reason.
Like, the bad boys and, you know, the situation that we're in. You know, you can't be going out with these guys and doing what you're doing with these guys because, you know, it comes back to me. They've had a lot of drama with most of them, to be honest. And the last guy hung himself. Mm-hmm. Which was... It was deep. But he... You know what, Narsis will, like, one minute, he'll be giving her the world, and then next he'll be like, who you with, like, who you texting, blah, blah.
And I'm like, mum, these guys are not good for you, man. Like, they're not good for you. But somehow she thrives off them situations and gets a buzz off it and becomes happy. So I was in a situation where it's like, Do I want mum to be happy being with these guys or, you know, bring her back down to earth? So it was a difficult situation, but like I say, yeah, the guy, you know, hung himself in the end. And then I think after that, my mum realised, you know, she can't be, you know, dating these people.
It's difficult, isn't it? I completely relate to... Well, I can completely understand, not that I've had that lived experience, but I can understand what you're saying with this conflict of, I want her to be with someone, but if it's a bad option, would I rather her just be alone? And then, you know, I was thinking, as you were saying that, about many of my friends who have been going through difficult situations with their mental health and what ends up happening, because there might be a gap somewhere or something missing or...
something not quite stable with you, you end up attracting someone like a mirror who is also a little bit unstable, who isn't in the best place. And you kind of are toxic together in a way. And often I think with some of my friends, it's like you just need to work on yourself first before you, you try and find someone who, you know, because a lot of the time we end up trying to look for someone that will fix us. Yeah. Which is never a good thing.
I think that's what she, she did. She wanted someone to, Because she's got friends, but she don't go out with her friends and be social. So I feel like her having someone there, she could go to his house, she could do things with him, she could be happy. But on the other side, it's like, they're not good for you though. They kind of bring you down in a way. Manipulators and yeah yeah yeah. Manipulating and stuff like that and... They're well aware of your weaknesses.
She'd believe it. Really? She'd believe like... Like we'd, I don't know, we'd go probably, we'd go somewhere like me, my mum, Daisy and maybe Travis and something like that. The guy would be texting like, where are you? Like, what you doing? Who you with? Like, what's all the family? No you're not, no you're not, no you're not. Ah. And it's like... And I know, my mum's like dealing with this and I'm like, how can you deal with that? I'm thinking, how can you deal with this?
And that's blocking. But she just, like, she loves the attention. She loves it. Narcissists target people like that, that they can control in such a way, be coercive and manipulate and sort of take advantage of their self-esteem and stuff. That's what narcissists do. Because an individual like that, a narcissist like that, would never... be successful in coercion and manipulation of someone who would go, what the fuck are you texting me when I'm with my friend?
The fuck do you think you are? Exactly, that's what I'm saying. They wouldn't survive there. So they find their way to people who they can... Easy targets. Yeah, exactly. Mum's easy target. And it's difficult for you. She'll never back down. If I say, like, look, leave him. She'll be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll block him, block him. She'll unblock him the next day. It's tough, man. It's difficult, it's hard. It's difficult, love is a difficult, difficult thing.
Off you go into Manchester United. When did you get, in your view, your first real break in Manchester? Probably when Jose come in. Really? Yeah. I mean- Not under SAF, it's Alex Ferguson. So, like I said, I'll make it when I'm 23. When I'm 23, 24. So, you know, I always believed in him. He always believed in me. I think when David Moyes come in, I weren't ready to play first-team football yet. And then I think, especially under Van Gaal, you know, it gave me the confidence to play.
But still, it was difficult because, you know, I was at a stage where, I played the first game on the Van Gaal, did my knee six months out. January came, went on loan to Derby. And then the season after that was when I was kind of make or break. So I left it till October time. And if I weren't playing then, then I knew I needed to leave. And then he played me at CSK Moscow Way, Champs League. Like, starting. I was like, what? OK. Freezing. Cold.
Minus five, whatever it was. Rooney was like, don't wear gloves. I was like, what? He's like, don't wear gloves. I was like, OK. Don't wear gloves. Played well. And after that, stayed in the team. So it was kind of a make or break time for me. Why is that comment, don't wear gloves, significant to you? Because, you know, especially at United, we're brought up. Got to wear black boots, no gloves, no long bottoms in training. Just like the basic things, we're brought up with that.
So when you go into the first team, of course, in the warm up, you know, I'm going to wear gloves. But for the game, you know, back to basics, how we grew up, don't wear gloves in the game. It's about values, right? It's about values. It's moral, it's the way you've been brought up. United put that into us at an early age. A lot of that comes from Sir Alex Ferguson, right? I'm super, you know, I've sat here with a bunch of ex Sir Alex Ferguson players, Rio, Gary, Patrice.
How would you describe the culture at Manchester United during that Sir Alex Ferguson period? What was the culture like? It was good. Yeah. Always banter. Rio, Scolzi, Giggsie. You know, always banter. Even on tour. You know, it's good to go on tour with him. And, you know, I think, you know, Rio being Rio always was there for advice, always there to speak to, you know, on a regular basis. Like most of them, Scolzi the same. Were they honest and critical as well, though?
Were they tough? Some of those senior lads? Erm... Yeah, because they're winners. And, you know, they've been there and done that. And, you know, they've won trophies before. And, you know, it was unfortunate that I weren't in, you know, any of the teams that, you know, won the Prem or Champs League. But, you know, even on tour, it was, you know, you still win games and, Going on tour with them, especially with Sir Alex, was an amazing feeling. I remember being on the bench, me and Pogba.
I got called up to be on the bench against Newcastle. Not knowing if I'm going to play or not, but still just to be there and see how they are in the changing room and see that winning mentality. I think being at United is... It's been instilled in you from a young age that winning is important. Don't matter how you win, just win. I think they've been so successful over the years, winning trophies, just by having that winning mentality. Sir Alex Ferguson leaves.
Now, it's funny because I'm a Manchester United fan. I'm a big fan. And I've had season tickets over the years and go to most of the games at home still today. And from what I've heard, it went from being like a family to being run by Ed Woodward and it feeling less like a family. Like one of the comments, one of the waitresses said to me was, you know, when Sir Alex Ferguson and David Gill were here, they would come in here and like chat to us and they knew all of our names, every single one of our names.
And then when Sir Alex Ferguson left, one of them said to me, they don't speak to us anymore. It's different. Sir Alex was like, one to one. Like, when we're training with the first team, you bring us up 16, 17 training with the first team. Like, it give you that confidence. Know your names, know all, like from probably under 10s to the first team. Know everyone's name. You take this time out to understand you as a person, understand your family.
Like I say, you know, things change. You know, but with him, It was good that you could understand the family side, get to know your family a bit more, understand you as a person, see your progression. Like I said, 23, 24, you'd be in the first team. To hear that, you can kind of get a big ego, but for me, nothing's guaranteed anyway. So I'm just going to work my ass off 10 times more to be in that first team. Rio said to me that when his granddad was ill, Sir Alex Ferguson not only knew, but he knew what Rio's granddad's favourite whiskey was, flowers were, and he sent it to the hospital bed before anybody else.
He got it there. So Rio said to me, whenever I've asked the senior players why SAF was so good, they all said they would all just, before you even get the words out, they'd say man management. That's what you said there as well. Even this day and age now, I feel like it's important. Even with Jose, Jose used to FaceTime me, like, randomly. A couple of times, he'll be driving and he'll be FaceTiming me. I'm like, where are you, kid? I'm just driving home from Selfridges.
Where's Marcus? I don't know, I think he's at home. Okay, enjoy. Just a lot of things like that. Little calls here and there. Even, you know, Steve Cooper not going to ring me. Just have conversations. Wanting to understand you a little bit more. I feel like it's so important. Why? Because it shows that they care. It shows... And when they care, you care back. Yeah. That's how care works. Yeah, I want to understand you a little bit more then, you know, as a person, not just as a manager, as a person, like, how you operate.
Not in football. I want to know you outside of football as well. Same with the lads. I want to know you outside of football. I want to get to know your families. And I think where I learned that from was England, with Gareth Southgate. Man of management, top. Got to the 2018 World Cup, got to the rooms, see a picture of me and my mum, see a picture of me and Marcus. It's like we're home. So that- When you got to your room at camp? Yeah, in the hotel.
Like, I felt like he was at home. He really has got the best out of England. In my lifetime, in the 30-odd years that I've lived, I've never seen an England side that looks so happy and cohesive and honestly, ego-free. And then it's showing in the tournaments we're playing, we have hope. Like, I was out in Qatar and I was in the stadium for the England France game and even though we lost I walked away happy because we're playing great and we're challenging what's he done in your view to that England side to create that atmosphere and that culture I don't think he understands, you know, us as players.
I think when he first came in, he was the first person to give me a debut for England. I played with him at under-21s, you know, understood his values and the way he did things. And then, you know, coming into, you know, the senior team, you know, giving him a debut. What are his values, in your view? I think he cares about the players a lot. And, like I say, he wants to understand the player. So for me, being with him on the 21 level and obviously being with him on a senior team, there's trust already there anyway.
But... It takes a lot to trust a person. For someone new coming into the team, he still understands the person. Like I say, he wants that trust and the trust back. He can speak to him about anything. Not just football, he can speak to him about anything. He'll understand and ask about... How's your mum? How's your dad? How's everyone? Just little things go a long way. And I think, you know, the management side of it is very important, especially tournaments anyway.
But, you know, the group as a collective, you know, understand his values and the way he does things. You know, so people new coming to the camp, you know, it's easy to settle in straight away. Because it'll pull you straight away and speak to you and sit you down and talk. Just talk. And that's it. And I think it's so important. A lot of managers are known for Sir Alex Ferguson's... One of the trademarks of his style is the hairdryer. I know that's kind of overgassed by the media and stuff because you hear what a caring man he was, but when you think about Southgate's style compared to these other managers you've had, like Van Gaal and Mourinho and all and Moyes, etc.
What's his style, Southgate's? It's different, but he's still got the hairdryer and all. Really? Yeah. It surprises me. Yeah, it surprises a lot of people. But you need that though. Because you don't want a manager who's nice and lets you get away with a lot of things here and there. He's on it. It'll tell you if you're in the wrong guy or not. It doesn't matter what player you are, who you are. It'll tell you if you're in the wrong guy or not. But on the other hand, it's still...
He still wants to create that good vibe with the team. And he'll shout when it's needed, but most of the time it's just simple. You can speak to him, speak to the group, simple words. Enjoy the game, we've been here before. Go out, go out and win the game, have fun. Do the tactics all in the week. you know, to have someone like that, you know, who's a good guy as well, I think, you know, it goes a long way, especially, you know, with the England team.
Why did Manchester United not reach the levels on the pitch during that era? Because when I look at the players that we had, I mean, fucking hell, we signed some unbelievable players. People often criticise the Glazers for lots of reasons, but when you think about the money spent on players on the pitch, we spent the money. It's like almost a billion, I think it's almost a billion we spent in players in that period. Yet we couldn't seem to win. We couldn't seem to get that cohesion right through that sort of Van Gaal, Mourinho era, and even the David Moyes era.
what's your assessment on why that is like what why wasn't it I just think it didn't click of course it won you know Van Gaal won the FA Cup Romino Europa League Carabao Cup but these these world class players are coming to United and I'll be honest they're looking average so they would come from a club where they were banging and me and my friends we celebrate in our Manchester United chat we're like here we go lads every year and then it's like they've become half the player It's strange because a lot of players have come in and failed.
Like I said, you know, Alexis in training. Top. Like, this kid... Sanchez, yeah. Quality. Training, quality. Then it comes to a game, it's a thing, clip, for some reason. Don't know. Is it pressure? When I was playing, especially with Rom and Alexis, we just wanted to enjoy football. Of course, it's going to be hard to win a Premiers City who have been so dominant for many years. But even to win Europa League, Carabao Cup, Community Shield, we're winning trophies.
But I think when Jose left, the trophies stopped. It's difficult. Another new manager. It's kind of like you have to like, kind of prove yourself over and over again. It's kind of like, you know, false, like fake promises really. I think that's the heart of it. Yeah, like, you know, you get, you're doing well, like, you know, you're playing next game. Don't end up playing. During the time under Solskjaer, Yeah, because I played at first and then obviously lockdown came in.
§02Transcript — part 2
Box office, when all first came in, you were unbelievable. You were balling out of control. You see what I'm saying? And then I said to him before the season, you know, if I don't play, X amount of games before December, and we let me go on loan in January, he said, yeah. So didn't play, and then January come, West Ham came in, and there's still people who was debating, you know, is he fit enough, is he ready to go into a team like that and start straight away?
That nearly didn't happen, did it? It was off and on and off and on. Honestly, I was literally with my brother, watching Sky Sports News, David Moyes on the phone. I'm like, yeah, I'm coming. I'm there. Like, you want me there? I'm there. Edward rings. No, you're not going there. It's off. It's done. Just crying. I was crying. Me and brother's crying. All I was going to do is play football. I was like, Edward was... Right, it's back on now. He's like...
All I want to do is play football. Let me just go and play football, please. As soon as I got there, hit the ground running. It was probably one of my best seasons, to be honest. Like, I think nine goals, five assists in... from, like, February to May. I still didn't go Euros after that. And that was the main aim to go Euros. How did that feel when you found out that you weren't going after having one, it probably arguably your best ever year in football before at West Ham, when you were, you know, widely considered to be the most informed player in the league.
How did it feel? It's heartbroken because, you know, growing up, I was what I do represent my country and play for England and to not play the first half of the season, then to go to West Ham and the phone that was in there. I could have easily took it into, into the Orals, but didn't pick me. And like I say, weren't strong enough to probably say, look, why am I not picked? Would that have helped? Probably, yeah. Do you think? To get a, to get a, a reason out of it, yeah.
It wouldn't have got you in the team, but it would have helped you. Yeah, like, What I could have done to get into the team. Yeah. Should I score a 10, 11, 12 goals? I don't know. Do you have a suspicion why you weren't picked? You do, don't you? I can see it in your face. I don't know because... I can see that smirk. You do. I don't know because... I'm just thinking off form, how can I not be picked? Do you think it could be something else? Because your form, you can't argue with it.
Can't argue with form. Can't argue with stats. Stats don't lie. Off the pitch? Off the pitch, I was sweet. I was in a good mental space. So I don't know what it could have been then. This is what I'm saying, who knows? And maybe one day we'll probably get, you know, the reason. But to this day, not sure why. Yeah. In 2019, as shown in the documentary, your mother was admitted to hospital. What was the cause of that happening? What was the lead up of events that sent her to hospital?
Just the depression. It was just so bad that she couldn't really cope anymore. I think she needed to go away and get help. But then leaving me with my little sister, who was probably 11 at the time, and my little brother, who was probably like 15 at the time. For me, I was still going through my own things as well. I weren't really the big bro that they wanted at the time. Because they always get like, the fun, the Laffy Jesse, the bubbly Jesse.
But at that time I was going for my own stuff anyway. So I was just autopilot. Your mum's in hospital, you've got two younger siblings that you're now primary carer of. And how are things going on the pitch? You're saying that you just weren't present on the pitch. Just weren't there, like mentally, weren't there. Like I'd be on the pitch, but still wouldn't be on the pitch. Really? Nah, I don't want to play. I don't want to quit football. I've never quit football, but.
I would have needed a break. If lockdown didn't come, I would have needed a break, 100%. And is this in, this is in Oles first year or second year? Yeah, it's like the second year and I'm just going into games, like, just, just mind blank. Just, just on the pitch, just like, I didn't want to be there to be able to, so of course I'm going to play bad. And then you get an abuse? That was kind of what tipped it over, to be honest, after the derby game.
So we won. But, you know, as soon as we get on the bus, it's, No, Jesse, you shit. Blah, blah. Like, why are you playing for us? Blah, blah. And to be fair, Luke Shaw backed it, to be honest. He came down off the bus and started shouting at him, arguing, whatever. But I don't know if it was Derby fans or United fans, but... Like, I'm human, do you know what I mean? Of course it's going to affect me. Like, I'm already down enough anyway. I'm already going through things what you don't know about.
And I've got to perform on a weekly basis. And when you're performing, you're not performing 100%. So, of course, it's going to be critics and you're not playing that well. To be abused like that, it's kind of what tipped it, to be fair. That was like, I was like, nah, I can't be arsed anymore. I need a break. I need to... find something, some motivation, some fire in my belly again to get going again because, you know, I can't be doing this. And there'll be another game next week and I'll be like, oh, I can't be arsed, man.
I don't want to play. Just during that time, that time period of everything that was going on with mum, looking after my little brother and sister and that, I felt like I had a world on my shoulders. There's this really kind of like moving, haunting part in the documentary where I think your older brother has literally videoed you lying on the sofa completely still. Your eyes are like blank. That's how it was. Like, even at training, like just masking it.
Masking what? just masking the depression side of things, the anxiety. Like, I was still trying to be Jesse, like, hey, banter, banter jokes and that, but it comes to a point where you actually need to say something, because I felt like the world was on my shoulders and had no one to turn to. Like, I couldn't speak to anyone about anything. I didn't want to speak to anyone. I thought, you know what, I can deal with this. I can handle this. I'm grown enough to deal with this.
But come to a point where it's like, look, Oli, this is what's going on. And we kind of kept it. you know, close-knit, to be honest. But even just to have, like, Oli say, like, you know, how's your mum, how's she doing? Like, I could have a conversation with him. I could have a conversation with a doc. I could have a conversation with a liaison woman. And that just helped a little bit more, just having that little conversation and letting people understand, like, what I'm going through.
And then I think I did a piece for the paper, you know, talking about it. And I still don't think people really fully understood, you know, what was going on until, like I say, the documentary came out. in order for you to be able to have those conversations with the people you first had to make the decision to like for you to talk about how you're feeling because once you open up then they can give you that support you talked about how it's difficult to do that when you're a young man did you realise in that moment that you were suffering with depression could you see yourself in your mother yeah probably yeah I think the video sums it up the one where I'm on the sofa I'm actually late for like three minutes just Just staring to thin air.
I don't know what I was thinking, don't know what was going through my head at the time. But like I say, I was drinking, something like that, like before bed, having nightcap. I'm like, a lot back now, I'm like, what am I doing that for? Like, what I needed something to try and take the pain away and like put me at ease somehow and like try and forget what was going on. But it makes it ten times worse. Do you feel the online criticism? Are you exposed to it?
No, I don't read it. You don't read it? No. Have you ever gone on Twitter and looked at what people are saying? No. I think that's the worst thing anyone can do. Some players must do that though, right? I think players do it, yeah. But I don't know why. Because, to the fact, I'm strong enough to handle it now. Yeah. Like, I'm strong enough to handle negative comments, criticism, whatever. Conchering football... But there's no point going and searching for it in a sewer.
Yeah, there's no point. Why search for it? Because I'm thinking about like, you know, we talked a lot recently about players like Harry Maguire being on the receiving end of a lot of criticism and stick. In my view, most of it's completely unjust. But I've always wondered if players actually feel that criticism and it impacts their game. Yeah, I think so. Can you see that when you're in the dressing room? If you know a player's, like, been slammed in the press or online or whatever, can you see them drop, like, their head drop a little bit?
Yeah, they probably try and mask it a little bit. Yeah. Just to, like, be strong, like, I can handle it, but... We are human. Of course, criticism is going to affect us, especially when the pundits are saying it. Especially them, the pundits are saying it, more than a comment on Instagram or any social media. Because it gets highlighted more in the press with a pundit saying it. Of course, you're going to see it or someone's going to send it here.
but then it's kind of masking it, trying to be strong. And then you gotta go and perform. But I think the majority of players, you know, in this day and age are strong enough to handle what anyone says anymore. You did perform when you went to West Ham. You really, really performed as we've discussed. I think a lot of people were expecting you to stay there because you performed so well. And it just seemed like you finally found your groove consistent, you scored the goals, you got the assists.
What was your thinking at that point when that loan comes to an end? Did you want to stay at West Ham? Mm-hmm. You wanted to stay? Yeah. Manchester United wanted you to come back? Yeah. So I had a year. Yeah. I went into my final year after that then. Mm-hmm. And I still wanted to go on loan in Jan, so I weren't playing again. So, Newcastle was on the cards in Jan. Deal was done with him. Obviously, the United squad weren't big enough. So, a couple of players got on loan.
And then when it come to me, John Murtagh rang, he was like, nah, you're not going on loan. I was like, Well, he's gone long, he's gone, let me score on enjoy, I'm not playing there, so let me score on long, let me play football. To Newcastle? Yeah. And he's like, what do you want, days off? I was like, no, that's what I'm going to play football on. What do you want, days off? Yeah, so this is the whole thing, what happened. So then, they stopped the loan, obviously I was pissed.
And then when he said about the days off and that, I messaged him, I was like, you know what, I'm going to take two days off now. Just because you said that. So then they put out, Jesse's asked for two days off in the media. What? Went on Twitter straight away. No, I didn't ask for two days off. He asked me the order one day. I was like, I'll just put it out there. The facts. Yeah. What was the dressing room like at that point? Because a lot of players, obviously, when Ronaldo comes in, obviously, he eventually ends up getting fired, etc., etc.
It did feel like, you know, they use this phrase, oh, the manager's lost the dressing room, all this. From a fan looking in, you could just see that there was something wrong with the culture at the club. Players were coming there that were world-class, as we said earlier, world-class elsewhere coming. They were becoming fucking average players. You've got all of these rumours leaking. You've got all of this stuff happening. Players at the club feeling like their trust has been broken, like you said you've been lied to a few times.
It just felt like someone didn't have control of the place. No, it wasn't. There was no control, I don't think. Like you say, when Sir Alex was there, it was full control. Like a fortress, yeah. A fortress. Everything goes for him. Contracts, everything, like commercials, like everything. Of course, generations change. Players grow up. People have a voice. Like you say, when things are getting said about you that's not true, you're going to voice your opinion.
Like I say, what happened back in the day, it would be squashed there and then with Sir Alex. But like you say, now people have got platforms to voice their own opinion and write what they want. Do you think players have lost respect? Not in this sort of Eric Ten Hagira, but just in that period that followed through these managers and the Solskjaer. Do you think players from what you'd seen had kind of lost respect for the club? Probably, yeah. It looked like that.
Yeah, probably. It looked like this wasn't the same. There's no control. Control, right. There's no structure. There's no balance. People doing what they want, pretty much. It's like a free-for-all. Free-for-all? Yeah, it's just a free-for-all. I mean, like you say, people saying stuff like, That's never happened, ever, at United. People are saying stuff on Twitter, and I think it happened with Paul as well. He got a lot of scrutiny. Guy's one of the best midfielders in the world.
I've known him since I was 16. Kid's got talent, man. He's one of the best midfielders in the world, and still he can't perform at United. So there's something wrong in some way. You got one of the best midfielders in the world, you can't perform. And then during the season when you're in national, he goes to France and you see how he plays in France. It's like, yeah, guy's sick. And come back like, Alexis and that. I told you. I don't know what it is.
I don't know. I can't say what it is. I don't know what it is. I enjoyed my time on the Jose there. I had one of my best seasons on the Jose there. I was going to say that. Of all these managers, Van Gaal, Mourinho, Ole, in Moyes, in the post-Syr Alex Ferguson era, when did it most feel like there was control and that United were starting to be more like United? Probably Van Gaal, to be honest. Really? Yeah. He had a structure. Like everyone understood what he wanted.
Some people didn't laugh. I love Van Gogh. Very tactical, knew I wanted to play and everyone bought into that. And then, of course, Jose, best manager in the world, just wants to win. But like you say, had that man management as well and had the belief in me and the trust in me to perform. Like I say, I had one of my best seasons on a Jose. That's how I went to the World Cup. If you could wave a one then, if I gave you a one, then I said, okay, in that old era, in that post-Alex Ferguson era, do one thing to fix the club's issues, what would you have done with that one thing?
You know what it is? I think the saw behind on like everything. Like, you see, like, City's facilities, you see Tottenham's facilities when we go there, like, with England and, like, when we're training at Tottenham. Like, people are miles ahead. Even, like, the social side of things and that. I went to them, like, 2017 about, like, YouTube and let's do, like, content. Like, they're so behind on everything. Like, I just want them to just get up to date on, like, the new things that are happening, like, the things that are popping.
Why does that matter? Why? You've got to be relevant. You've got to stay relevant. But in terms of like the training ground, obviously Ronaldo in the Piers Morgan interview talks about the jacuzzi and the chefs and the food and the facilities and the weights, training equipment. And he left years ago. Yeah. He says he came back and it was all the same. What impact does that have on you as a player? Yeah. You want the best things. You want, especially, like, United's one of the biggest clubs in the world, so, you know, you want the best for the best.
And, you know, you want the best food and, you know, you want the swimming pool and the jacuzzi and the sauna, which is still there, but, you know, it's like, being more modern, like, modernised, cos, like, you see, like, you know, cities, facilities and that. And like you think like, like get up to date, like catch up a little bit, like, cause like you're way behind at the moment. Is it, is it a symbolic thing? Like as in, it's just a, it's kind of a symbol that you're not keeping up with the other clubs.
You're not investing in the, in the small stuff, which as a player you go, well then, well, we're also behind on the pitch and we're just behind. Just behind in general, because like back in the day, we used to have like table tennis table and like, and like pool and everything. So like, we keep you like mentally, you know, happy and you know, we had a dart ball and stuff like that, but not anymore, like, there's like no games room or nothing. And like, you just go in, you train and you go home.
Sometimes you have to stay at the training ground sometimes, play darts for the lads and play table tennis for the boys and that. But, like I say, you just need to catch up a little bit more and become a little bit more modern. Of course, you train like the canteen and that, but to be relevant and stay in this day and age, you've got to be a little bit more modern. Is that because of the ownership? Is that like the people at the top of the club just don't understand what's important for the players?
Because they spent their money on players, but to hear that they didn't spend the money on things behind the scenes kind of speaks to the fact that, I don't know, because Sir Alex Ferguson probably could have called the shots back in the day and said, we need this, we need this, we need this, we need this. Whereas these days, the last decade, who's calling the shots? We don't know. I don't know what's going on. And of course, now they want to sell the club.
But the fans have been wanting them out for a long time. Did the players care? Did the players take of you, do you think? Not really. It was just, like I say, just behind. It was just behind on a lot of things. And like I say, you want that modern... You want the modern things. You want the things that are, you know, popping off at that time. But I don't know who calls the shots about, you know, changing the training ground or things like that. But, like I say, just to catch up a little bit and you see what City are doing and that.
Like I say... Fresh training ground, best facilities, no one talking back in the press about the team. You chose after your time at Old Trafford, after your contract had come to an end, to go to Nottingham Forest. A lot of people were surprised by that. A lot of people would have thought you would have gone back to West Ham where you had an unbelievable run, or even to Newcastle or somewhere like that. Why did you choose Nottingham Forest? Newly promoted team.
They'd just been promoted, right? Yeah. Why Forrest? I think they showed the love. They showed the willingness and the hunger to want me. He was going to fly me here, there and everywhere to get a deal over the line. Things brought down at West Ham, negotiations, which obviously I can't get into too much, Nottingham showed the love a lot more than West Ham. And when you think about it, I've been at West Ham anyway before, and you expect... You see what I can do, I see what I've done.
So you expect them to be like, yeah, you know what, we'll show you the love. This is the contract, blah, blah, blah, let's negotiate, let's talk. They weren't like that for some reason. They didn't want you to sign? No, they wanted me to sign. They just wouldn't give you a good deal. Kind of rushed. It was kind of rushed. It would be like Wednesday and they'd be like, sign by Friday. This is the deal. Let's talk. You know me. Do you want some respect?
Yeah, just show a little bit of respect. I've been there. I've helped your team. We got to Europa League. I showed a bit more respect. One night I'm going to just like, listen, We love you. We want you. The manager will come to your house. The owner wants to fly you to Greece, like to sign a deal. Doing everything in the power to get the deal over the line. And for me, it was a new challenge, different challenge. New different body team. Of course, I've known as United all my life.
And I remember leaving United the last day and the physio that we had from under 18s, obviously he's with the first team now. He's like, I remember the FA Cup goal, remember the youth cup, you know, run, when you won the youth cup. I'll always remember that goal, the FA Cup goal. So I got in my car, yeah, started crying, just started bawling, crying, all the way on, drove home, yeah, I rang my brother, I was like... I'm leaving, leaving. Crying all the way home on that.
I couldn't contain my emotions and that. And then it lasted a long time. Like I've been there all my life. Like I know everyone in the club from like staff, kit men, dinner ladies, you know, Mike Glennie who scouted me, you know, to United and like, that's been my life United. How did you feel about the club when you left it? Did you feel let down, like disappointed? Yeah, a little bit. They say false promises here and there. Not really give you a reason why, you know, you weren't playing.
So, yeah, kind of let down, to be honest. Like I say, didn't really get a send-off. Been there that long. I think I deserved one. But when you get in that car, I've been in the moment as well where I've quit my business that I'd started seven years in when there's hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of employees. Yeah. And my first reaction, I've got to be honest, was like, I was like, when I knew I was going to quit, I was so mad. And I wrote this email and it was kind of bitter and whatever else.
When I realised I was actually going to send this email, there was this little pause. And this is when I was in Portugal at the time and I got really emotional. Yeah. Because that's when you look back and go... I'm actually going here. Yeah. It hits you. It hits you, yeah. It's all said and done now. Yeah. And I'm leaving. And so I redid the email and it was like a really nice one. It was like a thank you to like the board and stuff for taking the chance on me and stuff.
So yeah, it's tough, tough though, because. That was tough. When he said that, when Fizil said that, I was gone. Crying all the way home in the car. And people don't know that. Like, people probably thought, oh, yeah, he's happy to leave, but I needed to leave. I wasn't playing, so why am I going to... Like, I got offered a contract, but what's the point? I'm not going to play, so I wouldn't rather... Like, yeah, biggest club in the world, but happiness is more important for me.
And I needed to be happy and go somewhere I'm loved and... It's been a difficult start to the season for Nottingham on the pitch. As we sit here now, I believe they're in the relegation zone, in the table. What's your, what's your view on the start of the year for Nottingham? I think it's always going to be tough, especially with new players coming in. I think 22, 23. Yeah, crazy. So it's always going to be tough, but I feel like, especially the Tottenham game, the Palace game, we started getting a bit more momentum.
Everyone knows the roles and responsibilities now. We play with each other a lot more and we understand each other a lot more. So I felt like the connection was there, especially Tottenham and the Palace game. And then obviously now we've had a break, but I think the break can do us good to regroup and really re-evaluate and see what the main aim is for the season. And of course, we don't win relegations or what we win in games. And... away we need to do a lot better because we're struggling away from home at the moment but home games can be really crucial and key because the atmosphere is It's nothing I've, like, I've never heard it like before.
I've never been in atmosphere like that. Before the game, like, it's a joke. I get goosebumps every time. And I feel like we need to really, I think, just dig deep. I think everyone knows what the situation we're in anyway. And just about, you know, maintaining, keep working hard. Of course, the attackers have got to score and, you know, we've got to do our job. you know, it's different for me because, you know, I've been playing at United and, you know, of course, you have all the ball and, you know, we're getting shots and chances and that.
Of course, it's going to be difficult at Nottingham where, you know, you might not see the ball as much and, you know, getting as many shots and, you know, creating as many chances but, you know, I thrive off these moments and these challenges. It's a new challenge and I'm happy to be there. I love training, I love playing in the games and that's the most important, just to be happy for me. Off the pitch, you know, you're 29 now. Players, I think the average age of a player usually goes, I don't know, 32-ish, I don't know.
What are you thinking about off the pitch? What's going on in your world? I know you've got your brand, you're doing several investments and sort of deals, you've got a media company. Give me a view of what that looks like. Even at United, I've always, you know, off the pitch, I'm always on the goal. Always want to know what the next thing is to do. What's the next investment? What can I be involved in? What can I do? Esports comes. Gaming. Love gaming.
Esports team. Let's do esports team. Brand. Love fashion. Let's do a brand. The launch for LeBron was amazing. I think 3,000 people turned up. Victoria, where else? And then at the night time, Little Baby was there. We got a little baby to perform. And they were even big, big then. But I just want to... I just want to be happy and do things that I want to do to make me happy. And, you know, the investment and the business side of things. Of course, I want to set up things for my little sister, for my little brother, for my daughter when she grows up that they can just go into straight away.
And I think with the media company, it's called One Touch. Guess why it's called One Touch? because you play One Touch with your granddad so I nearly One Touch and obviously the Channel 4 documentary came from that and I feel like it's just easier because if I do a commercial now say I do JBL commercial and they're getting the production and I can be like well you you can use my production then Like, the talent can get paid, and the productions can get paid at the same time.
So it's a win-win. And anything that we do, that we video or record, we get final say-so anyway. So it's all under our umbrella. And like I say, after football, I want to go into acting. maybe starting this now and maybe start doing a little bit of voiceover work and like, you know, the animation kind of thing. But I need to take drama classes. I'm not done that yet. Why acting? So when you think about your life after football, some people think about being a pundit or a manager or a coach, whatever.
You're thinking acting. Yeah. How come? I just love films, man. I just, I've always been a big film lover. And, you know, to be involved in, you know, a film or a series would be, you know, it'd be amazing and, like I say, I need to really, you know, home in on the drama side of things and, you know, learn, like, I'm really bad with lines, to be honest. What would be your dream role? Have you got an idea in mind for what... What kind of, like, acting?
Let's give me an example. I think I'd start comedy. Comedy? I think I'd start comedy first. And then, you know, when you see the interstellars and the inceptions, them kind of rolls. But that's going to take time. Like, you're not going to be thrown in straight away. Maybe a bit part here and there, but, you know, for the future with the media company, we've got so many things, you know, in the line-up. And obviously it's based in LA, and that's where eventually, hopefully, I want to finish football.
Yeah. You want to finish in America? Yeah, I think so. At the very center of your documentary is the story of your mother. I found this wonderful picture. What does she mean to you? Nah, she's everything, mum. She's been through it, Mum. She's been through it and... You know, to see where she is today, from where she was, huge progression. So proud of her. And it can be hard because she's had depression for years and years and years. Like I say, having me probably made that worse for her.
because she couldn't probably handle, you know, being a mother at that time, but luckily we had, you know, my nanagrandad there to support us, but... What do you want for her? I just want the best for her. I want her to see, you know, her kids grow up. I know she's so proud of me. You know, how far I've come. She'll still message me if I'm a bad game or anything like that, which is good. Same with my granddad, same with my dad, same with my brother.
She's been through it, but I just want the best for her. Like I say, I want her, you know, keeping her in this lifetime long enough to, you know, see me progress, see Hope progress into the character, what she's going to turn into because she's a character at the moment. You're proud of her? Yeah, massively. Massively. How come? Just to, from sitting in bed, you know, the age I was there probably, or maybe a little bit older, not being social, to FaceTiming me every day and ringing me every day and just what you're doing and have it, I love that.
And I think my little sister, like, she's 14, but she acts like she's 18. But I think she helps my mum as well a lot, which is good. Because my mum never really had someone to, like, lean on. Like, not even my nan, like, not even my grandad really that much. Like, she's not really had, like, a proper friend to lean on, you know, in terms of struggle. But I think having Daisy there, you know, my little sister, You know, she's really helped me mum and I think my mum thrives off that.
§03Transcript — part 3
Like I say, we're both daft. We're all daft. Honestly, if you had a camera in our house, honestly... It's just, it's 24, seven carnage, honestly. I believe you. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest without knowing who they're leaving the question for. The question that's been left for you is, what are the uncomfortable things that you banish to the shadows, which means kind of put in the shadows, which would improve your life if you integrated them?
Basically means what are the things that you put in the shadows that would improve your life if they weren't in the shadows, I guess? I think just to question things a little bit more. Because, you know, growing up, I'd never do that. Like, I've been put in situations where I could question things. Like, go and ask a question. Don't ask you what I get. But I'd never done that. And, you know, it's only taught me over these last couple of years where I can finally man up and be strong enough to ask a question.
Sometimes it can take time for a person to grow up and be a man, but having a daughter changed a lot of things. Like I say, if things don't go your way, of course I'm going to question things, but back in the day I would never. Well, Jesse, thank you. Thank you for so many reasons. You've given me so much joy as a Manchester United fan over the years. Not just because of your off the field, on the field performance, but just generally the personality you've brought into the game and the happiness you bring to your game.
But also the documentary you've released on Channel 4. is incredibly important, incredibly inspiring, because it's starting a new wave of conversation around players' mental health, and really a call for empathy, because we never, as fans, know what's going on off the pitch, behind the scenes. And to have a view into that puts things in perspective. It kind of turns the lights on. And when you can see that full picture, hopefully people will realize, as you've said, that you're players, you're not robots.
And that even one comment or one thing happening at home can, like all of us, like the rest of us human beings, can have a really debilitating impact on us, our mental wellbeing and how we perform. And that's a really important conversation. One that you didn't need to start. One that you could have very easily just kept to yourself. And it's... tremendously strong, contrary to popular opinion, to speak out like that, especially when you're a man and it's not so easy to do so because of the stigma.
So thank you for that. That's incredibly important. And I'm exceptionally excited to see the next chapter of your life play out at Nottingham Forest, but then much further on beyond as you embark on a new career in a different industry. Thank you. It means a lot to me that you've come here today. I appreciate it, Stephen. Pleasure to meet you.