Jaackmaate: The Untold Story Of My Battle With Health Anxiety & OCD
Guests: Jaackmaate
Full transcript · Read the full conversation in order, with its original context.
§01Transcript — part 1
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People know JackMaate for being the guy to slag stuff off, and that's funny. But then when the content dried up, I had to go look for someone who was doing something wrong. You can only do that for so long before you just hate yourself.
I didn’t really get on with my mom. She would do and say things that I don’t think any mom should really do. Things would happen at home, and I’d have a mark on my face from someone that shouldn’t have given me that mark.
I made a video reacting to Zoella's advent calendar. That changed the game for me. The upload before that, I was going to quit. I struggle with health anxiety and OCD. There are probably 15 to 20 times a day where I actually convince myself that I have cancer.
So you’re too fearful to go and get a health check done?
If I go there and the doctor says, "Yeah, you're ill," then that's the end for me.
What do you mean that's the end for you?
Jack, give me the context on your life. I sat here yesterday with Israel Adesanya, and he told me about his childhood. There were hints of that which felt similar to the experience I’ve read that you had as a young man. I think the other one where I could see real distinct similarities—and you might have listened to this podcast—is Jimmy Carr.
Yeah, what a man. I didn’t realize he was going to be such a philosopher.
One of the things he said to me was that when someone becomes a comedic figure, which I consider you to be in many respects, he says that instead of asking... because there's this stereotype that the person themselves is struggling with something and they're trying to make other people laugh... he said you’ve actually got to ask them which one of their parents they were trying to please or make happy. Does that resonate with you at all?
Upbringing... I didn’t really get on with my mom. I don’t think she truly understood the potential in YouTube, whereas my dad always did. So when I was sort of like... how old are you, Steve?
I'm 29.
Okay, so I'm 29 in two weeks. We were kind of the first content creators in a way; we kind of paved the way, if you will.
You did. I was late to the party.
People like Charlieissocoollike did, and I just followed them, I guess. But yeah, my mom didn’t really get—she might argue this point—but I don’t think she really saw the potential in what I was doing. I was just some kid in my bedroom talking to a camera, just waffling, not getting a real job. She has her issues with alcohol and whatnot. She ended up kicking me out. Long story short, I was at a crossroads quite early on, maybe like 18 or 19, where I was living in my uncle’s box room at his flat, which isn’t the nicest environment in the world.
I thought, "Okay, I have to try and take this YouTube shit seriously." At that time, I didn’t know what the YouTube shit was. Ever since that moment, the pivotal moment for me was I bought a whiteboard. That changed everything because I never took YouTube seriously like a job, like a nine-to-five. It was always something that I would just do—just moan about something or do a funny take on something. So I bought a whiteboard, chopped it up into a month, wrote my plan, and then I think it was in 2012, I had this thing where I was like, "I'm just going to say yes to anything that comes in my inbox." I did that for 365 days. Ever since then, it's just felt like I’m on this weird journey.
I still haven’t worked it out. You’ve got your shit together, Steve.
No, I haven’t. Look how many cameras there are in here. Cameras aren't an indication of having my shit together.
You're a "Dragon." That's mental. The word "Dragon" is crazy.
You’ve just reminded me of how much I resonate with what you were saying. I had a real issue with the fact that my mother was so different and so challenging at times. As I write about in my book, she showed up to my school in her lingerie when I was maybe seven years old. I’ve always really wanted to have a "normal" family and a "normal" mother. I kind of got that from reading your stuff. There are a couple of things where you talk about some of the challenges you think she has, which I also think my mother has. I think my mother is bipolar. She's actually started to talk a little bit about that.
I don’t know if my mom’s ever been diagnosed with it because there have always been rumors that that’s the case. Because I’ve not been a part of her life in the past eight or nine years, I don’t know.
You haven't?
Not really. I see her at my nan’s at Christmas time and stuff, but there’s always a very awkward vibe where now it’s just nodding terms. For someone who’s your mom, that’s a weird thing to be. Growing up, you hit the nail on the head; she would do and say things that I don’t think any mom should really do. It’s hard now because at what point is it water under the bridge? At what point do you go, "Okay, I'm just going to make up with her"? It sounds very juvenile, but when so much has happened in your past, when is the day when you go, "Okay, I'll accept you again"?
She sees that because she’ll text me every now and then, but my worry is that because she’s always struggled with alcoholism, she’ll text me at 11:30 on a Saturday night. I want to get that text message at 10:30 on a Tuesday morning. I don’t want to get it at 11:30 on a Saturday night. So I won't reply, and then she’ll just assume that there’s a lot of animosity still there. I guess there is.
It’s funny because I sat here yesterday with my sister, and I don’t see my sister much, maybe once a year. My sister really wants me to reconnect with my mom and get back on good terms with her. But for pretty similar reasons to you, I was trying to explain to my sister that I need to have boundaries with everybody in my life, not just my friends, but also with my family. At some point, you’ve got to protect yourself from going back around—taking them back in, forgiving them for whatever they might have done to you, and then getting sucked back in because you’ve fallen for this trick once already.
Oh mate, I’ve fallen for it too many times. I really got my life together and started on this trajectory where I am now once I left home. That was when it was like, "Okay, you need to make this work or you’re just done."
What about your dad? I heard that story about watching the World Cup.
My dad’s quality. He’s been through a lot of stuff in his life. I don’t know if you know, but my dad went to prison for manslaughter when he was young, very young. He got in a fight with some bloke outside a pub, got in a dispute, and hit him. The guy fell and passed away. That plagues my dad now because they were just two kids fighting in a pub car park. So he went to prison. He came out, and he’s just a grafter. That pains him inside; he has to live every day with that. Obviously, it’s not right what he did, but he’s brought me up with a lot of morals. He taught me that if you ever get in any fights, you run away. You don’t need to be the big man like he was. He’s always had my back from day one. He’s like my best mate.
For example, when I first got my first YouTube check through, I think it was like 60 dollars, which was the threshold back in the day. I think I got paid 45 quid or something. I’m from a council estate, never had any money. I got that 45 pounds, and instead of giving my mom any money, I just went to Topman and bought some t-shirts. Remember those old t-shirts with the colors?
Yes! With the little buttons down here. Oh my god, I wanted every color. The collar was a different color to the top.
Yeah, and the buttons were different colors. I got a couple of those. I was in my room, and I remember my mom coming in and having a go, being like, "You should give me half of that," and then she said, "And you’ve just wasted it on fucking t-shirts." I had done that; that is literally what I’d bought. But I remember my dad coming in and saying, "He needs those t-shirts because he can’t be wearing the same stuff in all of his videos." He didn’t know if that was why I was buying them or not, but he’d literally just made up a reason to apply it to my YouTube channel and justified why I was buying t-shirts at that age. My dad just knew from the off. I guess none of us really knew the potential in YouTube back in the day, but my dad trusted that I saw something in it.
I really vividly remember the moment when my dad called me to the kitchen table and basically said, "I don’t love your mother." I can almost remember what I was wearing. I remember from reading about your story that there was a moment where your dad basically said, "I'm going to leave after this football match."
Yeah, during the World Cup final, 2006 I think it was, when Italy won on penalties and Zidane did that headbutt. My mom would always kick him out. She’d always just, when she’d had enough, kick him out. It was very much a case of, I think my dad loved my mom more than my mom loved my dad. My dad was the lapdog that would come running back. My mom would kick him out, and he’d come back. I’d see it as a kid; them having an argument and him being kicked out so unfairly.
She’d always kick him out, he’d go round to his friend's, and I’d go and visit him at his friend's. Again, he had a little box room as well. He hated it, and he was a proper grafter working all the hours under the sun. So one day he just went, "She’s going to kick me out again, and I’m just gone. I’m just going to go." Luckily, he didn’t travel to the other side of the world; he just went to a town 30 minutes up the road. But yeah, we were watching a football game, the World Cup, and I thought, "I’d better enjoy this because it’s going to be different after this."
Was there a point you got to where you kind of wanted your parents to separate? Because I fought it for a long time. I remember crying my eyes out as a kid at the prospect of my parents separating, and then I remember getting to like 14 or 15 where I was like, "I'd actually prefer you guys to not live in the same place."
I think that’s accurate for me. I don’t think I gave a shit really when it happened. I’d always seen them break up and get back together, break up and get back together. I’d see my dad stay up all night writing my mom love notes and stuff, and she’d wake up, not be asked, and get rid of them. I’d see that side of it. As a kid, I don’t think that should have been a side that I saw necessarily—the rejection from her for someone she’s supposed to love. So when he was gone, I was kind of like, "Yeah, go! Fly!" Then he met his new partner who’s lovely, and ever since then, that’s been a little haven as well, just going around there and venting.
Did you ever figure out why she was the way she is? Was it a generational thing?
I don’t know because her mom, my nan, is the loveliest woman in the world. I see my nan all the time; I’ve got her tattooed on me there. So I don’t know where it came from. I just think she just has—or she had—she might be completely different now, but she definitely just had issues. I don’t know whether that’s drink, drugs, whatever that may be. Maybe I haven’t given her enough time to actually think about why she’s like that.
And she’s never had help or anything like that?
Not that I know of. My life has been richer and mentally I’ve been a lot healthier without her in my life, which sounds horrible, but that’s the truth of it. Maybe one day we’ll be able to sit down and talk it all through, but not today, and probably not tomorrow.
What about school? What were you like?
Just a little ginger twat. I was alright. I would just show off to the cool kids. I’d want to be accepted a lot, so I’d show off to the cool kids. I remember I used to always say what I thought were funny little one-liners and not get a laugh, and then once I put a ruler in a fan and it went *brrrr* and I got the biggest laugh ever. I thought, "What is this?" So I just became a bit of an idiot in the last few years and was just trying to make the cool kids laugh. There is a lot of regret for how I was at school as well because I wasn’t a bully, but I was a bit of a prick to teachers as well. There was one teacher in particular, Miss Chapman was her name, an English teacher. I’d love to reconnect with her and just apologize because I was just a bit of a prick. I’d never listen. Being ginger, everyone’s got things that people get picked on for as a kid, but you try and fit in. I tried to fit in by being the class clown, the funny one. That’s such a cliché, and I hate when people say they were the class clown because what that translates to is you were just a bit of a dickhead. And that’s what I was.
Was it just because you were ginger though? You were trying to find a way for them to appreciate you?
Yeah, I discovered bleach. Bleached my hair.
I relaxed mine so it was straight. Now I'm just cool with this short afro thing.
Well, I discovered bleach, and then I remember just going to school the next day like that scene in *Bruce Almighty* where I’m walking like the butterfly's on me. I was a different person then. But then I was predicted all the top grades. I was predicted like 12 GCSEs, top marks in everything, and I just completely fucked it really and got like five, just scraped it. I was a bit of an idiot really. I only took life seriously after school when, thank God, I found YouTube.
Was there a connection in your view, looking back, between your home life and your school life? You said things went downhill for you around year 10 or 11. Was there a link in your mind?
Maybe, but I probably wouldn’t blame home life. I’d probably just say it was more a case of wanting to fit in, discovering at an early age I wanted to be the funny one. I’ve always been the center of attention, or wanted to be. As soon as I discovered self-deprecating works and putting myself down works, and that gets a laugh, I’ll do that. And then you’re invincible then because if people are calling you a ginger twat, if you call yourself a ginger twat before them, it's disarming. Now I’ve got the cards.
My home life affected school probably the early years in high school. Not to go into too much detail, but things would happen at home, and I’d have a mark on my face from someone that shouldn’t have given me that mark. I’d go to school and say the cat did it. And I didn’t have a cat. So that really affected me. Little things as well, like I remember I had these ornaments, Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. I loved these ornaments. I’d done something at home that was "naughty" or something—stayed up too late or played the PlayStation too much—and someone came in and threw the shelf down and smashed those ornaments. I remember thinking, "Please, please don't say those ornaments are broken." I was only a kid, probably like 10. I remember lifting it up and they were all broken. That was the moment where I was kind of like, "I fucking hate this shit." So I remember going to school and having to deal with stuff like that. But in the later years, when I had YouTube and found my feet a little bit more, I found it a bit easier even if I was pissing the grades up the wall.
Do you ever worry... because as we get older, sometimes some of the earlier things we learned about love or relationships, or how you treat people or how you respond, your temper, they can sometimes surface? I've had moments where I’d see parts of my parents in myself that I maybe didn’t love. Have you ever seen glimmers of that home life in yourself and you go, "Fuck, I don't want to be that person"?
That's such an amazing question. Me and my sister have discussed this as well because I have... because I separated from my mom at quite an early age just after school, I think I’ve lost all of those her traits that I had in me because they were such negatives to me. I really noticed them; her biggest negatives stood out like a sore thumb. So I actively had to not take them on myself. Whereas my sister, she had quite a few of my mom’s negative traits. We’ve spoken about this now as adults, and she’s like, "Yeah, I have to actively try whenever I think like mom would think or do something mom would do, I have to try and get rid of it."
I give my dad all the credit, a lot of how I am is because of my dad, but I also have my dad’s negative traits as well, which I think he would say. My dad—especially after what I told you about his upbringing—anger was his thing. And I have that. Luckily, I have it under control. It’s never going to affect anyone else or hurt anyone else. But for example, if I’m editing and the software shuts down, I’m like, "FUCK!" I’m instantly so angry inside. Fiona will have to be like, "Jack, just chill the fuck out, this isn’t that deep." And then I’m like, "Okay." As long as I remember where I got this from and if I can pinpoint it on something, I'm a lot better. Luckily that’s never got me into any trouble. If I’m out and someone says anything to me, I don’t get that. I get it over trivial things. But yeah, I definitely do have some negative traits about me from my parents.
Have you ever gone to therapy or spoken to anybody to try and understand these patterns or to spot them? Or is it just from self-reflection that you’ve noticed?
I did anger management classes at school. Really? Yeah. But for... they put me in them for something I didn’t do. I remember walking in the library once and I was at the bottom of these stairs, and this guy just gets thrown down the stairs at my feet. The teacher’s come in and seen that, and I had to do 12 weeks of anger management. I promise you, I’d done a lot of mad shit at school, but that was not one of them. I didn’t know how I could throw him and then be down there before him. He was on my feet, so it didn’t make sense. But I kind of needed them. So even though I didn’t actually throw him down the stairs, I probably would have been the guy to maybe do that one day had I not had them. I can’t remember anything we spoke about in those lessons, but yeah, that’s the only time I’ve really debated it.
Does it not ever crop up in your professional work? Anger issues with colleagues or with people?
No, I think over the years I’ve mellowed out so much. I think I’ve matured so much as well. And I think that shines through in my old main channel content because I made a name for myself on YouTube by being kind of the anti-YouTuber and slagging off other YouTubers. But I remember turning on the camera and putting on such a fake anger because I was talking about things I didn’t care about. "Oh, Alfie Deyes has got some new 30-pound t-shirts, let’s moan about that," mainly because I knew I’d get a million views from it, not that I cared. So I got really good at turning on the camera and putting on this kind of faux anger, fake anger. I guess because I was pretending to be angry all the time, I was very alert when I actually was angry and I could keep that under control.
Do you regret any of those videos? As you’ve matured and you say you've mellowed out and matured now, do you regret them since you were doing them from not an authentic place?
There’s some I definitely do regret. The majority I’d say no. Obviously, we both know that I’m a big fan of Ricky Gervais, and he always—one of his mantras is there needs to be a "why" in comedy. Why are you doing something? If you're targeting someone, why are you doing it? A lot of my early main channel content, for anyone who doesn’t know, I made a video reacting to Zoella's advent calendar.
Everybody knows. It’s got like 6 million views, isn’t it? Crazy.
It did alright. That changed the game for me in terms of YouTube. I was going to quit; the upload before that, I was going to quit. And then I upload that video and it changed the game. When I look back on videos like that, I have no regrets because it was funny, the comedy almost wrote itself. There was a reason why I was doing it; it was a sketch, that’s all it was. But there would be times when I fell into the trap of, "Okay, people know JackMaate for being the guy to slag stuff off and that’s funny, whatever." And then I’d find a few things that naturally did piss me off and I could draw humor from it. And then when the content dried up, it was kind of like, "Well, I’ve now got to go and look for someone who’s doing something wrong" and become this kind of white knight of the internet. And it was never who I was.
I did my first ever video with Ricky Gervais, and that was the biggest moment ever for me. And then I remember uploading the video and the interview was brilliant, and the top comment was, "This is good, Jack, but Alfie Deyes has released some new t-shirts that you haven’t spoken about." And I thought, "Fuck me, so that’s what you want from me." So then I’d then go out of my way to go, "Okay, Zoella in the title, bangs views. What is she up to? Oh, she’s released a book." Now that book, there was nothing wrong with that book, but I’m actively trying to pick flaws in it that I can dissect on my channel. That’s kind of the stuff I regret.
I remember KSI and Joe Weller, they did their first press conference for their fight in Manchester. Because I was the black sheep of YouTube, I would never get invited to them. So therefore, by default, the jealousy would take over and I’d be like, "This is shit, I want nothing to do with it." Where deep down I knew that I wanted something to do with that. That whole YouTube boxing scene—I'm a boxing fan, I'm a YouTuber, so why would that not appeal to me? And they did a press conference and JJ said something about Joe Weller’s medication, which I don’t agree with, but in the context of a press conference, you say anything you can to get the upper hand. And I remember just turning on my camera straight away and was like, "KSI needs to be cancelled, blah blah blah," because I knew it would bang views. But JJ's a hero of mine, as I'm sure he is to any YouTuber, any content creator now. Joe Weller, I used to watch every single one of his videos. I love Joe Weller. So they're the ones I regret, when I wasn’t being authentic and not even really being funny, just actually trying to go in on someone because I wanted that check at the end of—the ad revenue to be higher that month.
When you were doing that—so when JJ mentioned the medication thing, you hit record—was it like, "I can make some money here," or was it, "I can make some money and get attention"?
Probably a bit of both, because they go hand in hand, don't they? Especially on YouTube. So probably a bit of both. It’s mad that you’re so self-aware about this like you’re really good at diagnosing exactly why you did it from like a psychological incentive perspective. You’re like, "I wanted this, or I did this, I wasn’t true to myself, I did this," and that suggests like you’ve done a lot of kind of reflecting and soul-searching and maturing in what is actually a very short space of time. Because this was not a lifetime, this was not a decade ago. That video was probably four and a half, five years ago tops. I realized a couple of years ago that it wasn’t who I wanted to be.
I recently did a brand trip with Calfreezy and The Burnt Chip, and I was speaking to them out one night. I’d never done a trip with another YouTuber. YouTubers are very clicky and they're all in their groups, and I was always on the outside of that. I was always this boy from Norwich just had my normal mates. They surround themselves with YouTubers. I remember saying to them one night, "I think the main reason why I used to go for them is because I wanted to be them." I'm one of the OGs, I really am. I’ve been doing YouTube for probably around the same month that JJ uploaded his first one. We would have been there at the start. Calfreezy, Callux, all of these lads, Miniminter... and I probably see them become a collective and I was like, "Why am I not part of that?" Now I don’t give a shit. I’m so happy and content with where I’m at and I’ve built my podcast now. But as a kid, as an 18-19-year-old young man, growing up seeing that, feeling left out, it probably goes back to how I was at school as well. I thought, "Okay, if you can't join them, slag them off. Become the Darth Vader of YouTube," so to speak.
And then in recent years, people started to discover that other people that I really respected, like WillNE, and then even though Will was my friend—still is my friend—he’d call me out publicly when I’d be slagging someone off and go, "Have a day off, mate." And I would be so angry because it was accurate. And I’m like... I’m sat there like, "You're so right." And I’m going, "No, I'm not bothered, mate," that kind of thing. So yeah, I was speaking to Calfreezy about that and, yeah, I've got a lot of respect for him now.
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You not only did the whole YouTube thing, but you also provided this like online commentary almost constantly about how you were feeling about it. So you're one of the rare YouTubers that like in real time would say, "I've lost motivation for this, I'm going to try and find my motivation for this, I've lost motivation for doing this kind of thing, I'm doing this," and you were very open. So even for me, as I logged into Twitter, I could kind of see where you were in this journey. Obviously, I’ve seen that change a lot with the whole podcast and Spotify thing, which feels like you really found something that you do find really enjoyable. But with your main channel, I watched you go through these waves of enjoyment and then seeing you say, "Right, I'm going to try and commit to it now," and then that didn’t really work. So tell me about that journey with YouTube and what you learned about yourself from that.
Oh god, you've got really good questions, it's got to be said. Wait until you come on my podcast and I ask you your favorite sandwich.
No, no, I genuinely have watched it, and this is why I kept trying to, you know, message you and be like, "Come on my podcast," because watching that journey taught me so many things. It really reconfirmed a lot for me that I’ve been reading about in psychology about what keeps people motivated and when they're not doing things that are in line with who they are, or they're doing it for a check. I remember reading this study which said if you love doing something and then they pay you to do the exact same thing, you lose your motivation. So the minute it goes from being a hobby I'm doing for the love of it to a hobby that I love doing but now someone is paying me for, this weird thing happens in the mind where people lose motivation for the exact same thing.
Going off that, and I'm not sure if this answers your question, but I found this really interesting and I couldn’t really work it out myself. I spent my whole YouTube main channel era just saving up all my money, just saving up all my money. The only thing I was—I had the blinkers on—I was like, "Buy a house, buy a house, buy a house." And last May, I paid for my house and bought it outright.
Wow.
And that was the last time, bar one, that was the last time I uploaded.
Really?
Yeah. It was like... it's called "Arrival Fallacy," I think. And Tyson Fury had it when he beat Klitschko and became the heavyweight champion of the world; the next day he was depressed. Israel Adesanya sat there yesterday and said the same thing. He said the day after I won the UFC title, I went to my hotel room and I was depressed. I said it last night on stage at the Palladium. I said 80% of Olympians when they get the gold medal, they report depressive symptoms.
It was the proudest I've ever been over anything. Paid it off, and then me and my partner Fiona, we moved in in September, and I just remember just... I was drunk one night and I remember just walking around my house when Fiona was asleep and I just... I didn't care for where I was. It’s a beautiful house and I'm so lucky and it's everything I'd worked for, but it was like, "What do I do now then? Like, what? I'll sit on my sofa or go in my kitchen? I’m not any happier than when I was renting." It was weird.
Have you figured out why you felt that way?
No, I don't know. It’s because the journey is way more fun than the arrival. It just is. Some of the most fun I’ve ever had is probably the first time I got a viral video, or the first time I got to present for this company, or the first time I got a brand deal—all the stereotypical YouTuber things. The first time I felt like a YouTuber. They are the best moments. And I'm not complaining, I'm not sitting here whining, I'm so blessed and so lucky. But yeah, it is a tough one. I did YouTube for seven years without earning a penny. And then once the Zoella video kicked off and the ad revenue went up and I earned money I would never dream of earning, that was no more fun than when I was doing it for free.
And it’s funny because the liberating thing to know is that everyone I’ve sat here with says the same thing. So it’s not a "you" thing, it’s a human thing. And you go, "Okay, if it’s a human thing, what does that mean and why is that?" One of the things, because I was writing my show for the Palladium, I encountered was that the reason why we're here is because our ancestors struggled forward, and their desire to keep striving is the reason they built these empires and overcame. So I say to the crowd, "Is it conceivable that they left a message within our genetic code that says 'you too shall struggle forward'?" They’ve predisposed us to forward motion. Also this other point, our ancestors that had a real sense of forward motion, struggle, and purpose were the ones that survived and passed on their genes to us. So we’ve inherited this real desire to have forward motion and a sense of purpose.
One of the things they say is causing the life expectancy to decline in the Western world is specifically—they point at men—and say there’s an epidemic of purposelessness as the world is starting to change, and AI and things like this are taking purpose from people. And so people are now becoming more addicted and depressed and therefore their suicide has become the single biggest killer of men under the age of 45, which has caused the life expectancy to decline for two years in a row. It’s because of they think this epidemic of purposelessness. So when you lose your sense of purpose because you reach the point you were aiming for, that can be so disorienting and confusing, as it was for me at 25 when someone came along and said, "We’ll buy Social Chain off you for 50 million." I go home and I look at the mansion on Rightmove and the Lamborghini on Auto Trader and I feel totally fucking lost.
I completely agree. I wouldn't change it for the world; it’s everything I've always wanted. But like, because I think money does buy happiness. And I think if people say otherwise, I think they're talking shit. In a way, well, maybe I should rephrase that to: money buys freedom, and freedom is happiness. And that's what I have now. I can do what I want when I want.
The best feeling I get now as a 28-year-old, soon-to-be 29-year-old, is when I sort my family out. My grandad’s still working; he’s 77. Imagine that. He wishes he was 20. He’s 77, he’s a big fat lump from Norfolk and he still does building and demolition and walks on roofs and stuff. He’s not got a penny. And then I went to see his parent's grave with him in February last year. He goes there every week, puts new flowers on; he’s been doing it for like 50 years. And I could see he was wearing these beat-up boots and this disgusting tattered jacket. And I just went home and I just got his bank card without him knowing from the side of his car where the handbrakes are. I got his bank [details] and I just transferred him 5,000 pounds. And for me, that was just everything. That was everything I'd worked for was justified in that moment. I got more out of that than I did when I bought my house.
Just little things, like my sister’s type 1 diabetic, so she has a thing in her arm that constantly pricks her and finds her levels. I can pay for that shit. Last night my dog died—the dog that I'd had for 18 years. Literally found out just before I went to sleep last night. It’s little things like this that might not seem like a lot, but it was the first time I'd spoken to my mom in ages. She was like, "Oh yeah, we're going to get Diddy's ashes, cost 200 pounds." There’s the 200 pounds. So it's that kind of shit is why I owe everything to this online world and people that have given up their time to watch me and brands that have trusted me. That's the best feeling.
I think you nailed it when you said that—sorry about your dog by the way, I have a dog and I really can't imagine...
It's shit. It's really shit. Even the thought of it is just terrifying. She was 18 years and four months, which was quite old. But when they get to that age, you just assume that they're always going to crack on.
No, you nailed it when you said that freedom is the thing that ultimately does make you happy. Because I remember getting the bailiff letters and then not knowing how I was going to eat or knowing that the landlord was going to come and ask me why I hadn’t paid the rent in four months and the pressure that weighed on me. The freedom of just not looking at how much things cost when you go into Topman and want to buy one of those t-shirts, or you want to go somewhere—freedom definitely makes you happier. But obviously, at this point, I've come to realize that if you gave me more money, the fundamental happiness levers of my life won't change.
You’re right. My sister’s been a little bit sick recently. Being able to help her, I said to my team this week, that's the moment where I see the point of this. Just being able to pay the hospital or get a proper healthcare—those kind of things. My parents got broken into and being able to buy them new locks for their doors so that they wouldn’t get broken into again. That's what this is for. That was the feeling.
It makes it all worthwhile, doesn't it?
Do you ever feel—again, name-drop—but I spoke to Gervais about this because I was really... something that plagues me, whether it's right or wrong, is I feel guilty about having money. I feel this sense of guilt. And I don’t have crazy money; my situation is I’ve paid off my house and I have a bit more in the bank. But because of my upbringing and where I'm from, and I see my dad wake up at 5:00 AM every morning and go work in a factory for 12 hours and then still struggle to buy Christmas presents. And then I'm, like you just said, I go online, I don't look at the price of things anymore, I just buy it, and then it's like, "What? This doesn't make sense."
I'll tell you a quick story. Three or four years ago, my dad's dad, my grandad, he passed away. He got bone cancer. I went to his funeral, went to the wake, had a few jars, went back home, went on a night out, and I was in the place called the Waterfront in Norwich, which is where I always go. Everyone knows me there now, so I don't get the dickheads coming over. This guy came up to me—I was gone, I was not in a good place—and he’d never met me before and he asked me how much I earn from YouTube. I think that's such a rude question, but I can understand the intrigue in it because it's a world that people just don't know. I barely know it. He asked me, and I just told him. For the first time ever, I was like, "This is what I earn." I said, "What about you? What do you earn?" He told me and it was like 10% of what I earn. I said, "And what do you do?" He said, "I work on the cancer ward at the hospital." And I was just like—and I wasn't saying "what do you do" to be rude, I was just throwing that back at him—and I remember just... it just hit me. I just got a lump in my throat and I thought, "Why do I deserve this, what I have, when there's these people that are like... they're the fucking angels. They're the ones walking around doing that." I struggle to then wrap my head around why a brand would pay me 30k to do a video. It doesn't, to me, it's weird. So I guess you could argue, "Why don't you give it all to charity?" Well, no, I'm not going to do that, but I will give it all to my fucking family and I will give it all to my fucking kids. And that's what makes me proud.
Is there a wider point about imposter syndrome? Because I've never struggled with the idea that I didn't deserve what I'd created. And so I'm asking myself why you would really struggle with that. Why you might struggle with the thought that you're making money and other people are potentially having to... because I mean, it's a reality of the world. Even if you go back to where I was born in Africa, people in the fields for 18 hours a day picking tea leaves in the baking sun get paid nothing. And in the Western world, some people can just play around on their computer and make billions from the stock market or something. But for some reason, you struggle with this and other symptoms of imposter syndrome.
Maybe it’s because—I think I've spoken positively about YouTubers and my peers and stuff—but there's still a lot of them that are pricks. Growing up and seeing... I'd used to go to YouTube events and see my YouTube heroes and they'd come over, "How many subscribers you got?" That's the first thing they'd say. "How many subscribers you got? My name's Jack." "Nice to meet you, dickhead." So I guess maybe it's connecting that. I'm now a YouTuber. I now make my money in the same way that Alfie Deyes made his money, Zoella made her money. I'm that guy. And because I've seen a lot of YouTubers take it for granted and just assume that that's their right to have these things, it makes... that's maybe where I get my guilt from. I never want to lose touch of that.
And you really come from a working-class household where you've watched your dad work really, really hard and everyone around you, it sounds like, worked really, really hard wherever you've looked. And it's almost like you found a bit of a cheat code. But you earned it—I mean, you bought the whiteboard. This was intentional. You planned it out. Obviously, moments of luck for all of us appear when we carry on and carry on. But you realize that you've earned it, right?
Yeah... you hesitated. I do, but not to the level in which I've got to now. I have a talent, I can do... I'm a personable person, I can make people laugh. But yeah, I don't know. I really don't know how to answer it. I've thought about it a lot, I've racked my brains a lot about this.
And what does your brain say to you when you rack your brain?
Don't know. Just maybe I don't. But then it’s cool things like this—Stevie White, my podcast co-host, was working in Boots. Nothing wrong with that, it's a respectable job, just a nine-to-five. He didn't particularly enjoy it. So I call him up one day and say, "Let’s do a podcast." A year later, he’s interviewing Ricky Gervais, Johnny Knoxville, Rob Brydon, and he’s left his job, he’s doing it full-time. Fiona, my partner, she was working at a supermarket. I was telling her for years, "Bin it off, I'll teach you how to edit, you become my editor." A couple of years go by, she bins it off, she’s now working for me. There's a few examples of people in my life that can now have an easier life because of the foundations that I put in seven years ago. That’s what I love and that's when I'm like, "I deserve this, and the people around me deserve it." Does that make sense?
Of course it does. Once again, you said that the most fulfilling thing for you is helping others. You said that about your family with your money and now also for professionally, it's like giving those people opportunities to live a better life.
We're just a fucking team. They help me as well. It's not just me going, "Look, I can help you do this." I showed them that there's a different world out there because people like us, we've been in this world for so long, we've seen the opportunities. But they probably didn't. So yeah, I wouldn't be able to do what I do without that team in the background—or sometimes in the foreground with people like Stevie. That's a fucking cool feeling.
Everybody... a lot of young people want to be YouTubers. And the thought that you had this big main channel with like... how many subs has your main channel got now? It's like 1.4 million? That you would lose motivation to do it is quite a difficult concept to understand for a lot of people. You have 1.4 million people that have subscribed to get videos from you and you're like, "Can't be asked."
It's not so much "can't be asked," it's just it's not me anymore. People would be emailing me about some YouTuber from France who has sold a pen for a bit too much money and I need to be the guy that calls them out. And it was just like, I was never really this guy. So I guess I just transferred all that energy that I was putting into the main channel into the podcast, and that's where my passion is now. Doing stuff like this, getting to sit here, chat to you. If you'd have asked me two years ago, "Am I just going to leave a channel with 1.4 million subscribers stagnant?" I would have called you all the names under the sun. I'd be like, "You're an idiot, of course I'm not going to do that." But it seems that I have done it. I'll use it every now and then, like in January I uploaded a video about Boris Johnson.
I saw that video. It was all over the newspapers. Really, really cool video. Creatively, culturally relevant, it really hit, and it was fast. You were very quick to act on that moment. So that’s how you're seeing the use of your main channel now—when you genuinely feel you want to do something?
Yeah. When the "why" is there. When there's a clear and obvious "why," I'll do it, and not just for a quick buck now. I'm very thankful I don't need to do that anymore.
It's hard to sustain something when it's not in line with who you truly are, isn't it? It's hard to like sustain it for a long period of time. In the short term, you could probably do it. It tends to be the case when I see with people that at any point in their lives where they were living outside of themselves—living someone else's life or playing a character. Fern Britton said it like she had to go on radio and be this happy, upbeat person, and almost play a character. Jake Humphrey said it to me as well because he was a presenter, having to kind of put on the mask. Eventually, it becomes a really heavy mask to wear. And they all eventually choose to throw it away and just rebound. That seems similar to what you're saying.
100%. I told this story last night to someone. I used to turn the camera on and I'd go, "Right guys, hello, it's me, JackMaate. Oh, Zoella, oh what a dickhead, oh she's done this, done that." Turn the camera off, just sit there. And I couldn't tell you anything I'd just said in the last 20 minutes. I'm just looking down at my script. "She said this in her book about how out of touch is this," and it would just be like, "Right, that's the ad revenue sorted for the month. Fiona, let's go to Wetherspoons." So you can only do that for so long before you just hate yourself. There is an element of that in me, that advent calendar video—I've done some videos I'm really proud of, funny videos when it was justified. But there's also ones not so much.
I've been doing recent sort of commentary videos over the last two years. My recent ones are like videos I've been doing with my friend Alfie Indra, who's a musician, and we've been taking kind of comical pokes at people like Jeremy Lynch from the F2. People think I'm Jeremy Lynch, or the F2. You do not want to be that guy. You can be Billy, be the other one, he seems alright. But the thing with those videos, I'm really proud of them still, and I guess you could argue, "Well, you're that same kind of scathing commentator." Yeah, but I believe that those people I'm going for there are justified. Zoella, not so much. Let her crack on.
What would you say to her if you met her? Have you ever met her?
Never met her. I don't think she wants to meet me. That would be an awkward one, wouldn't it?
Because that video did really well. And I think if a video about me had gotten 6 million views, I think I'd have a pretty shitty month. I was going to say week, but I think it lasts longer because that video did really, really well. I remember sometimes someone will write like an article about me and I try and be this tough guy, "I don't give a fuck, whatever, whatever," but I'm still at like 1:00 AM in the morning, it'll like... it's hard to get it out of my mind. So I think if a video had got 6 million views about me criticizing something I'd done, it'd probably be quite hard to take mentally. Does that ever cross your mind? I'm not saying what you did was wrong because I watched the video and I actually thought it was really funny. So was there comedic merit in someone that's super successful selling an advent calendar of that nature for that price? Yes, I understand it. But has that crossed your mind as well?
Yeah, and that's just another reason why I stopped doing it. It's hard to... I'm not articulate enough to describe how I feel about it. But yeah, the calendar video was funny, there was a clear error on her behalf and I just... ultimately, I wasn't really saying anything nasty about her, it was just this product. Whereas when you do a follow-up video and a third video, where's the line? Where do you draw the line? Is it becoming bullying now? Like that's not who I want to be. I want to be a comedian. So I definitely as I've gotten older—and I guess maybe I was immature for a long time, I should have realized this at a way earlier age than I did—but you do start to consider others.
And I'm the same as you, mate. I'll read a comment about me on Twitter and I will clap back. I still go back to them now. And Fiona's there going, "What are you doing?" And I'm like, "Fuck them." Like that's a bit of my dad as well. And I'll just... I'll spend hours arguing with football Twitter. Oh, the worst. And they've all got like a football player as their display picture. "Fantastic Fornals" or something. He doesn't know who you are. But I get a bit of a rush from it really.
I worry sometimes because I say to myself, "I'm trying to reply to a troll to try and disprove their point or because it's fun or whatever," but I think sometimes it's because it's like hit me in the ego. And I don't want to admit to myself that that person has actually pissed me off. So I kind of use the guise of, "No, it's funny," or "to justify it to everyone else." Like, "I'm not bothered, but..." the internet is not a good place to be if you haven't got control over that because you'll get dragged around by trolls with egg emoji accounts.
Fiona's always telling me not to. I'll be in bed like that, hungover or whatever, Sunday morning, what's going on. And Fiona will be like, "Just leave it, they're fucking idiots." And ultimately, I know they're probably just jealous of whatever it is. Like I'll get like a good podcast guest on. Like the other day, I was in Wales with Gerwyn Price—he's the number one darts player in the world—and put a picture up of me and him. Just put "In beautiful Wales, throwing a few arrows with Gerwyn Price." And Gerwyn Price is this panto villain—I don't know how much you know about darts, but he's like the panto villain of darts.
Is he the Welsh one? That when he wins always like... didn't he slap their bum and it goes like this... with big biceps?
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so he's... I'd heard for a while that he's very lovely off-camera but when he's up there he's a panto villain. I thought, "That's pretty much like the JackMaate of darts in a way." So I put up this picture of him, I was like, "Never judge a book by its cover. I know this more than I know this myself because I always did." Just some guy replied, "Two bellends." But he follows me. Just follows me. So it's like, I will reply to him and Fiona's like, "Why are you bothered?" Like that must just be jealousy. Like why else do you follow me and you're doing that? It doesn't make sense. But I kind of like... I like to think that I'm very, very honest online. So why would I not reply? Why would I not try and think of some pithy remark to try and put him down? Yeah, because I'm meant to be a professional and I'm in this world and I'm working for West Ham, but really, I also think you're a bit of a dickhead, mate, and I'll tell you.
Do you think that because you are very like... I imagine if like Boris Johnson and another politician uploaded a photo, you'd probably quote retweet and say "two bellends." So do you think there's a chance because you've cultivated a younger male audience that are comedic and they use kind of colloquialist, funny language like "bellends," you're also now at the mercy of them attacking you with the same language in that situation? I'm just wondering why no one would ever tweet me, if I uploaded a photo, and go "two bellends." My audience just don't speak like that. Wait until this episode goes out, and the top comment is "two bellends." Do you see what I mean? And then you're having to deal with that because they think you maybe like that as well. They think, "Oh Jack, you know," because he follows you and he clearly looks up to you if he's following you.
That's true. That's true. It becomes more real when someone—there'll be people out there that will defend me on that thread and they'll say, "You don't know him," and he'll go, "Well, he looks like a prick, look at his trousers." Then it's like... so it's like, it goes a bit deeper then. But you are right because I would always do an event called Summer in the City. It was the only time I'd ever get out of Norwich and go and meet the fans, and they'd put you in a pen. There'd be all these YouTubers in this big hall at ExCeL, and you'd be in a pen and fans would come up one by one. And I'd meet like 13-year-old girls—you might want to bleep this, I don't know—but they'd come up to me and go, "Alright, you cunt?" And I'd be like, "What? What have you just said?" And then because that's what I'm doing online, "Alright, you fucking dickhead?" But they're there to meet me, they want their thing signed, so they like me, but they think... but then I wouldn't go up to Declan Rice and start doing keepy-uppies around the world. "Alright, Deccy?" So you just have to be like, "Yeah, maybe I am an influencer." Scary notion.
No one's ever said that to me in a meet and greet. That's so interesting. Do you think there's an element of your childhood in that? In the sense of like being triggered a little bit by what people are saying or the criticisms that trigger you? Because I definitely wouldn't sit in bed replying, especially now I'm on the BBC, it's a bit prestigious, I can't really be popping off too much.
Well, yeah, probably. I probably shouldn't be either.
Do you want to be the type of person that doesn't?
Yeah, but I can't, Steve. I can't. I'll reply to them and then Fiona will be like, "Delete them," and then I'll be like, "No, not going to." And then in an hour, it's like a comedown. I'm like, "Alright, now I'll delete them." And then in an hour later, someone else has said something. I'm so immature on Twitter, it's a joke.
There's a real risk there of being like pulled around emotionally by the external world, right?
Yeah. I've deleted Twitter off my phone a few times. We went out for dinner with Max Fosh and I told him—he questioned it, he was like, "Why do you always go back at these idiots?" I'm like, "Oh, I just find it funny or they just get to me." And I deleted Twitter off my phone and he was like... I said, "I'm going to do it for the whole weekend," and he was like, "I guarantee that you'll redownload that by the end of the meal." And I had. I did. I was scrolling through it. So when football Twitter say, "We're in your head, mate," nine times out of ten you are in my head, but I'll try and get back in yours.
Do you not think it would be a happier life just to...?
100%, yeah. Yeah. But I guess I get bored.
Is it that?
No. Ego.
Happy Hour. So this was a really pivotal moment for you. Where did that start? Why did you decide to start doing long-form podcasts instead of the other types of videos you were making before?
I've always wanted to interview people. At college 10 years ago, I studied interview techniques. My grandad was the first person I interviewed; he came in and I interviewed him about the war and all that kind of stuff. And I always wanted to do it. And then in 2017, I had a podcast with my friend Tom Norris. Did alright, but it was just too much... we were doing it at the YouTube space and we'd rock up sometimes and they didn't have the cameras in and that, so it fell by the wayside. But then 2018, I wanted to do another podcast. I said to Fiona, I said, "Who shall I do it with?" because I always knew I wanted to do it with your "everyman." So not a YouTuber, because that's not... I'm not a YouTuber that's been friends with YouTubers. I'm a YouTuber that's friends with my mates in Norwich. I'll do the best video ever with big celebrities, come back to Norwich and they'll just go, "Yeah, we didn't watch it, mate. Not bothered." And they'll just be in the pub and that'll be everything I need to keep me grounded.
So she suggested Stevie White, who's just a mate that lived in Bristol. And I called him up and said, "Do you want to do a podcast?" and he said, "Why?" Good point. And then we ended up giving it a go. I started doing it with a guy called ImAlexx, who's a YouTuber that was very... a commentary YouTuber. So he was calling out people. He would do the cookie-cutter templates of like, "X, Y, and Z need to be cancelled, X, Y, and Z need to be cancelled," and he was doing that all the time. So originally, my show was a YouTube drama show to call people out—to be an extension of what I was doing on the main channel. And then after about five or six episodes, I thought, "This is just poisonous and it's not me, why am I trying to do it in a different format?" So we dropped that and started getting guests on and interviewing people and I found the love of YouTube again, which I'd lost for a few years.
Was there a pivotal moment in Happy Hour where you thought, "Fuck, this is going to be... we've got something here"? It wasn't the Spotify deal, it must have come sooner than that, right?
Yeah, again, it was probably getting Gervais on. He was in our first like three guests. And I'm so grateful that he gave me a chance years ago because I genuinely believe I would have none of this if it wasn't for him giving me a shot. And I built up a connection with him years ago, so he then... when I needed someone big to come on the podcast, he would step in. And you know what it's like—you get one through the door, other people almost then don't judge the show based on me, they'll judge it based on who else is sat in that seat.
So I owe a lot to him. That was probably a defining moment. And testament to Stevie as well because I've been doing this for 10-12 years. I've been around people like Gervais. I've been very lucky, very fortunate. And I remember how nervous I was the first time I sat on a sofa with him. The first time I filmed with him was the most nervous I've ever been for anything in my life. And then Stevie White has come literally seemingly out of Boots the day before, and then he sat there with Ricky and he just... gets it. He's just on and he's just the glue and I was like, "I've chosen the right person here to do this journey with."
And then the money side of things. So eventually you get approached by Spotify and they offer you an exclusive deal to do... and I remember watching your video announcing that and you were very, very honest.
Was I too honest?
No, like, I think that's probably why people like you so much because I can trust you. Because you're going to tell me the way it is. You're like, "Listen, the money is a very important thing here," and you've been very overt about that, which I think is admirable because again, it builds trust. People don't have to like what you're saying, but they're going to trust you to always be honest with them. So what was your thinking around the Spotify deal? Because some day Spotify might approach me and ask me if I want to go Spotify exclusive, and maybe you can give me some advice on that.
The reason I did it was purely financial. I thought it was going to be a bad idea. And I took some... my network, they wanted it to happen because obviously they've got a slice of the pie. Originally I saw it as, "Okay, I'm taking off the full visual episodes on YouTube and just putting them on an audio-based platform," whereas a lot of my audience might be the younger kids. And people like me and you, we probably consume a lot of just audio when we're on the go and in the car and that, whereas I imagine younger generations—and I'm basing this on nothing, you probably know better than I do—but I imagine younger kids probably like the more visual, they like to watch the YouTube.
I think so.
So I thought taking it off is probably going to get a lot of backlash. And then Spotify told me how much it would be per year and the potential for how many years, and I thought, "Well, that doesn't just change my life, that changes my children's life who don't even exist." So I literally did it because I was financially driven. And I've got no qualms saying that or admitting that. But what I'll also say is I now am starting to see the benefits, a year in, of going with Spotify. And they've not got a gun to my head; I can be as honest as I want about it. If I thought it was shit, I wouldn't have then signed on for the second year. But they are now pulling out guests for us that I would have never been able to pull on my own. Up until like two months ago, I'd booked every single one of my guests personally on Twitter DMs or Instagram or whatever. Last few months they've booked us Johnny Knoxville as part of his *Jackass* press junket, Rob Brydon, Russell Howard... we've got talks of some of the biggest movie stars in the world because of Spotify. So as somebody who has always wanted to sit down with the most interesting people in the world and pick their brains, they've allowed me that.
And they've also said that I can get the full video on Spotify if I want. And the only reason I'm not doing that is for a few things behind the scenes that I need to... well, I can say it, it's because I'm earning money on the YouTube clips. So it's like, you need to give me a little bit more to take that off. So yeah, it needs to be worth your while.
I've actually had a conversation with Spotify about that as well, about that video thing, and I was considering it. Because Spotify have said to me, do I want to move the video to Spotify as well? And again, me and my manager were trying to weigh up what that means. Because we're not going to get paid for that on Spotify, but would that mean we'd lose YouTube viewers if we moved it there? And we kind of concluded that we wouldn't because we think that, as you've said, they're kind of very different types of people. The YouTube watcher is not necessarily the Spotify [listener]. People seem to be in their habits, their cycles of how they consume content.
Yeah, but then I don't know because if I'm listening to one of your eps, I'll put the YouTube version on even if I'm not watching it.
Same.
Yeah. But then if it was on Spotify, would I then go to Spotify for that? Like I honestly do not know. I like the arrangement I have now where people can watch the little clips on YouTube and listen to the full ones on Spotify. It's like advertising as well, isn't it? Because that can go viral on YouTube and then that brings people over to watch the full thing potentially.
What's your big vision as it relates to like the next 5-10 years for Happy Hour?
I want to do a live show. We've been contacted a few times about doing a live show, but it just has to be right. We actually did like a pilot one in London somewhere a few years ago, but it was the old show with Alex and the moaning and that. So I want to tour it. I want to have a more official chat show. I don't know what that means, because I have a chat show, but is that on television? I don't know. I want a better studio. I just want to keep... I'm really fucking happy, mate, so I just want to keep doing what I'm doing and just make it bigger and better and just see what happens. Every... Thursdays, which is today, day of recording, are my best days of the week. I used to live for the weekend to get pissed and go out with my friends. Now I live for Thursdays because I love... like after this we've got Gerwyn Price on mine and then you're coming on mine as well. And I'm so excited for both conversations. So I just want to keep doing it. It's the most impossible question when people ask me "Where do you want to be in five years?" I want to be here, doing this video.
One of the things that you've also been really open about, especially in 2019—I saw you talking a lot about this—was that was a really tough year for you, right? And you talked a lot about your mental health battles and just not feeling so good.
Yeah, I struggle with health anxiety and OCD. And I remember that was a time when I was really, really low. And again, I think I've touched on it a few times, but probably going out a bit too much and doing stuff I shouldn't have been doing. And that goes hand in hand, doesn't it? You feel shit because the OCD is consuming you, so you go out to get pissed up to have a break, but then the next day, "hangxiety" or whatever they call it now is twice as bad. So yeah, 2019 I think was really when that started to get really bad. And I still have it now; it's never going to go away, but it's a really weird, strange thing to deal with.
Health anxiety.
Yeah, so when I was 13, I found a lump downstairs. I've found that with certain words, like "testicles," "balls," stuff like that, I struggle to say them. I physically struggle to say them. When I'm talking to Fiona, I'll say the "T-word" or whatever. And because I remember I was up all night worried that I had the "C," that I panicked and I was so fucking nervous. I remember going to the doctor and he had to check it out and said, "Oh, it's fine, it's just a cyst, it'll go away." And it never went away. And I still have it now. But the health anxiety—this is how mad it is—I can't touch that part of my body. I can't look at that part of my body. There are probably 15 to 20 times a day where I actually convince myself that I have cancer. That's how crazy it is. It comes in waves. The best way I can explain it to people who don't have it is I don't smoke weed. I have done in the past, but for me, I can't smoke it because I lose my head. You know that moment when your brain sort of floats off and you stop being conscious—you're conscious but you stop having your... you're not as alert, and then suddenly you come back to reality for a few seconds. That's what my brain does with cancer. So because I had that trigger when I was younger, that's really given me this kind of disorder, so to speak.
And then that OCD has grown and taken so many different tangents. My grandad who's on this arm, my best mate and my best man—he'll be my best man at my wedding—he got ill with septicemia when I was like 14 and I got home and my mom had told me that he was in the hospital. I remember I went and saw him, went home, had a picture of him and he was holding me when I was a baby on my wall, and my lucky number's 13, and I kissed it 13 times. And then a couple of days later he got better. So that fucking triggered me. And then I could not go to sleep without kissing it 13 times. I've never been a religious guy; I've actively always spoken about my atheism, probably because I was trying to be a B-tech Ricky Gervais, but they are my beliefs still now, or lack of. And I made up a prayer in my head. It's embarrassing to say it out loud, but it was like: "Dear God, please look after my mom, dad, nan, grandad, sister," and then I'd name them all. And then I'd have to say it three times, and even though I wasn't saying it out loud, if I tripped over a word even thinking it, like thought of the wrong word in the wrong order, I'd have to go back and do it again. I went to have a sleepover round my friend's and then halfway through the night realized, "Fuck, I haven't kissed that photo of my grandad," so I have to go home. That's how mad it is.
And now, luckily, with the numbers and the patterns and the sort of more known-about aspects of OCD, if you will—the more documented parts of it—I don't necessarily have those. I obsess over time and sunsets and sunrise, which is weird. But the cancer thing is something that really consumes my life. And if anyone... if an advert comes on for cancer research, I have to shoot up and turn it off, and it's alarm bells in my head. *Ding ding ding ding ding.* There's been a few times during this chat where my brain's gone off and it's like, things like, "Oh, you need to write a will," or "What's going to happen to the channel when you die?" All the little things... it's a strange thing. But I spoke about this with Joe Weller on my podcast and I've had hundreds of people DM me on Instagram saying they have a similar thing. Although I don't reply to all of them, I try and get my way through as many as I can.
It's amazing that you're so honest about that because there'll be people listening to this right now that go, "That is me." And the concept of health anxiety seems so alien to me, but 15 times a day you said, thinking about cancer or death and mortality?
And it's not the prospect of you *might* have it, it's my brain telling me I *do* have it. There's no other outcome. It'll be I'm chatting to you now and then for a minute my head will be going, "Oh, remember you've got... remember you're ill. Oh shit, right, okay, I need to deal with that at some point." And then it's almost like that moment when you're high and then you come back down and it's... "What the fuck?" and then I'm back in.
There's a rapper called NF who struggles with OCD, and he talks about them... he puts it into kind of... he says they're like black balloons that he's carrying around in his brain and every now and then one will float away or come back. And I really resonate to that. If anyone out there has got health anxiety and resonate with some of the stuff that I'm saying today, check out NF. He's got a few songs about health anxiety and OCD in there. They're pretty good, they're pretty accurate.
How does someone go about overcoming these things or curing them? Is it therapy? Are there other resources?
I have... I've never been able to do therapy in terms of because I don't truly know if I'm ill or not. I can't bring myself to walk through the doctor's door because if he... if I get that confirmation, I melt down. I'd probably fucking do something silly. So I don't want that confirmation. So I'm the worst person to answer that because I would actively encourage people to go and if they have a worry, go and get a lump checked out. Of course, why would you not? Or if you know you have this health anxiety, OCD, whatever mental disorder it may be, I would actively encourage people to go and talk to someone, whether that be therapy or a whatever. But I can't do it. So I can't practice what I actually preach. My friend Liz, she bought me an OCD workbook and I go through that every now and then and answer the questions and write things. So it's a hard one for me to answer because I wouldn't be able to practice what I actually preach.
So you're too fearful to go and get a health check done?
Yeah, I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. It's like shop shutters come down in my brain—*boof*—like that. Because if I go there and the doctor says, "Yeah, you're ill," then that's the end for me. There's no recovery process. That's it. And that's a mental thing. I know that's not the right thing. Fiona gets upset when she hears that, but I can't. Maybe it will change when I have kids.
What do you mean that's the end for you?
I can't live with knowing I'm ill. So even because I've spent so much time and effort into believing it myself, my little breaks now are when I'm like, "Actually, no, I'm fine, I'm fine." If I ever got that confirmation, I would shutdown. I would... but that's why it's a disorder, that's why it's not right. It's weird.
Living with those thoughts is not an easy thing to do. Have you found yourself... my business partner, you've met Dominic McGregor, he went through a number of struggles which he's been very open about and he turned to alcohol as a way to kind of self-medicate. And I remember coming downstairs when we lived at the Micador in Manchester and finding him in the early hours of the morning just drinking with the lights off at like 3:00 AM. And then thinking like, "Oh, this guy is just a pisshead," whatever, finding out years later that he had like some severe anxiety, suicidal ideation. He used to stand on the train station, he said, and consider jumping in front of the train and stuff. Did you ever find yourself medicating to try and escape some of these thoughts or realities you were living?
Yeah, I still do it now. I still do it now. I will go out and drink with my mates. And it's not a big problem now, nothing to worry about, and if it was, I wouldn't be sat here telling you about it. But I would go out and drink with my mates and then I would come home and carry on just drinking on my own. Because the OCD, the balloons fly away, and then I feel... the shop shutter goes up and I've got this release that I've not thought about having cancer in the past five hours because I'm... I've let loose on booze. And then I'll come home and then start to sober up and don't want that. I don't want my thoughts back again. So I will sit there and I will drink more and it will get to 6:00 in the morning and the sun... that's why I obsess over sunrise as well because I just... yeah, it's just a tough one. I struggle to sleep almost every night because when I get in bed, I think about it more and that, and then when the sunrise comes up and it's a new day and I know I have to start again, it's a tough one. So I obsess over sunrise times. I could probably tell you within 15 minutes maybe when the sunrise is. I think it's probably like 6:52 right now, maybe.
What's the significance of the sunrise, sorry?
Because I panic so much at nighttime and that's when the worst thoughts come into my brain. I panic so much that I can't... I cannot sleep. And I'm just in a circle of thinking "cancer, cancer, cancer." And then because it's like, I know I need sleep because I need to go and interview this person tomorrow, or present for West Ham tomorrow. It's an important thing for everyone. I have to be on camera, I can't have bags under my eyes as well. So I see it as an egg timer and I'm like, "Shit, shit, shit, shit, the sun's going to come up and then I've had no sleep and I've got to go and perform." And so I'm checking my time, I need to know when the sun's coming up.
And another OCD thing is I always have to turn my phone off on the 15 minutes. So I have to look at the time, if it's say 4:00 AM, I have to see that 4-0-0 for the light to turn off before I can settle. And if I miss that and it's 4:01, well, I'm up for another 14 minutes then because I need to see it hit 4:15. It's weird. And I don't mean to sound insensitive when I say that; it *is* weird. Because I have it myself, but it is an unusual thing. But there are a lot of people out there that have a similar thing, so hit me up on DMs maybe we can have a chat.
Did you sleep last night?
Not really. If there's any talk of death in any capacity, I will relate that back to myself. And obviously, I lost my dog last night. So I was just up thinking. It's weird because even though all those thoughts plague me, and this is like a therapy session for me talking about this because only Fiona has heard this a hundred times and then no one else has really heard it. But even though those thoughts plague me, I am really happy. I just am.
So last night you find out your dog's passed away and you... that sends you into a sort of spiral thinking about death more broadly and yourself, and that kept you up last night?
Yeah. I'm in a bit of a routine at the moment where I've had like two-three hours sleep, have a really busy day today, drive back to Norwich, and then probably have two-three hours sleep tonight, two-three hours... until I become exhausted, and then I can just sleep all the way through one night and it's a reset. So I just work until I can't anymore. But the thing you were saying about Dom drinking at like 3:00 in the morning—I've been that guy. I've been that guy a hundred and fifty thousand times. I could envision him there because I've been him.
The thing that you said about your drinking pattern that I could really relate to is with all my mates, we'd like come home after like being in Manchester or whatever and our like drinking arc if it was a graph goes like up and then plateaus because we're like we've had enough. But what you said is that you want it to carry on drinking because you didn't want the sober thoughts back. And that's exactly what I used to see in Dom. I used to look at him and think, "Why does he never want the party to stop? Why does he never want anyone to go home? Why does he always..." It seems like once he's had one, it's a straight line upwards until he is incapable of pouring another. Whereas I would be like, I'd have three and then tail off and want to be in bed by like 2:00 AM.
So I have mates that are like you, and I'm the Dom in my group. And I could never understand the "yous." I could never understand why... why do you not want to carry on? It's such a release for me, such a break from my everyday thoughts. Why... I just assumed everyone's going to be the same. You just want to go to bed and lay there with those thoughts? No way. Let's just carry on and see the birds come up.
Fiona. Tell me about that. It's hard enough having a partner anyway when you're busy and you're focused on building your career, as I found out, but when you're dealing with difficult thoughts often, it can make it I guess an exacerbating factor, so it can become more difficult.
She's just the best thing that's ever happened to me. She's just fucking incredible. She will sit there and listen to me until 6:00-7:00 in the morning, every time, just talk about things. That's regardless of if I've been drinking or not, because I fear that this podcast may make it sound like that's what I do all the time. It's not. I will do that more frequently than most people, probably have two of those nights a month where I stay up until the silly hours. But compared to where I used to be, it's fine. But she will just sit there and listen, and she's not a drinker. She never drinks. So she'll come out on a night out and we'll just be high on life, which is brilliant and beautiful, and I wish I had a bit of that. I don't. So we're very much chalk and cheese in that respect, but she keeps me going.
There was a time in December where I'd stayed up too late and so it was now the early hours of Sunday morning, and anxiety was running through my veins and I said, "Oh, I'm not going to go to work on Monday." And I was hosting something for West Ham. I said, "I can't do it. I can't look people in the eyes. The OCD is too much, I'm shaking, I'm panicking, I can't face it." And she said, "Oh, you will do it." And I said, "Don't force me to do it, Fi, please. I don't want to do it." She said, "I'm not going to force you." She got up out of bed and she'd packed all my stuff that I needed, my laptop, and put it in the car. And then when I was ready, she was like, "I've run you a bath, you're going to get a bath and then we're going to go to London." She'd booked the hotel. I went to the hotel, woke up the next day, presented for West Ham, done a good job, smashed it. Driving home the next day I was a bit teary-eyed and was like, "I need you to just push me into things because if I hadn't have done that, I would have just been hating myself for ages." So she's very much my rock and it sounds a bit cheesy, but I would not be making content now if it wasn't for her.
What an amazing person.
She's fucking beautiful, mate. Yeah, she's incredible. Some of the advice she gives me and stuff is just... and when I met her, she was having bad panic attacks and I didn't know panic attacks were a thing. I really didn't. We was in Covent Garden and she's just start shaking, sat on the floor, and I was like, "What the fuck is going on here?" And now she would do no public... if I was doing any public event, she didn't want to be there, she didn't want to be whatever. And now it's completely flipped. I've brought her into my world whether she wanted to or not, she's been a byproduct of me for so long and now I'm a byproduct of her and she's my backbone. She's got all of her anxiety seemingly under control—I'm sure she'd tell me if not—and she doesn't have panic attacks, and now I'm that guy. And she... so yeah, shout out to Fiona. Hero.
It's so lovely to hear you talk with such admiration about her as well because guys can sometimes—they either avoid talking about their partners or they're a bit too tough to like give them the credit for the supporting role they play. But I think the same way with my girlfriend who's actually upstairs now, who's been a real rock for me and a real stabilizing force and really like helped me focus on what actually matters in life. My girlfriend doesn't particularly care about what I've achieved. Doesn't seem to care at all if I made loads of money. It's more about the other things like in terms of being connected to my family and being a good human being. Those are the kind of things she drives me on.
Fi is the same. Yeah, like me and my family, if I go around my nan's on Christmas day, we're all like... I love my family of course I do, but we'll watch TV, the Christmas special, whatever's on. We'll go around Fiona's house, her family never turn the TV on for the three or four days over the Christmas period. They sit there and they talk and they love each other and they embrace each other. And for me, it's like, "This is weird, this is old-fashioned," but she just is so full of love and she just brings everyone closer. She walks into a room, she brightens it.
You want to be a dad someday?
Jeez, yeah, I do.
Why was that question difficult?
I don't know, I'm... me and Fi have spoken about it a lot because I'm 29 now, soon, in two weeks, so I'm getting... I feel like I have to kind of soon.
You have to kind of soon? Says who?
I don't want to be a dad that's like 60 when they're like 20. So I can't have a kid when I'm 40 then.
But do you *want* to have a kid?
Yeah, I'd love to have a kid. I'd be a great dad. But ideally not soon. Yeah, I said when I was early 20s, I said "By the time I'm 25," and then when I was 25 I said "By the time I'm 27," and then now I'm saying "By the time I'm 30," but I've got just under 13 months, so I don't think that's going to happen. And Fiona's just had... her sister's just had a baby, so Fiona's just become an auntie and we love the little baby, of course we do, but *cor*, it's hard work. And I can give it back when I'm done.
Does it feel a bit scary? For a lot of people, it's quite a scary prospect. For me, it's a little bit scary too because I think, "What am I going to have to sacrifice?" I don't want to sacrifice anything. I'll have to sacrifice something to find time, right?
Sure. And you're very career-driven.
Yes.
I just sort of run about from place to place talking to people on a camera. I could have a kid and Fi could stay at home and edit. But I love my life so much I don't want it to change right now.
You know you're talented, right, Jack? You know what your talent is, right?
I think I can speak to most people on their level. So you can put me next to KSI, you can put me next to Deborah Meaden, and I'll be able to get a laugh out of them. And when they know the real me and I'm not trying to be JackMaate, I think that's a good person. And I've never been the best YouTuber, which is probably why I don't do the typical YouTube anymore. I'm not the best presenter. But I'm one of the best podcasters, I would say. And I've found what it is I love and what it is I'm good at. So I would say I'm a really good talker.
I would completely agree. I think you're much more talented than you give yourself credit for actually. I look at some of the stuff you do specifically with presenting actually, and podcasting. Presenting and podcasting, and it's clearly a real talent that is in my view like impossible to replicate. And you talked about potentially in the future doing some stand-up stuff. I saw you talking about that before. You'd be great at that. And I don't believe I could ever... I shouldn't be such a pessimistic person.
You did... you've been doing big theater productions, right? At the Palladium?
I'm not there making people laugh, I'm trying to make them cry. It's like a completely...
Yeah, but that's a fine line in comedy. If you can make someone cry, you can make someone laugh. It's all about emotions. That's what it's all about.
Do you know what it is? It's like the labels we give ourselves. And I've never labeled myself as like a funny person. I've never told myself that I could make people laugh, whereas you do that almost effortlessly. And I think to be honest, I think you've been practicing since you're a kid, as you've said.
I did two shows opening up for Max Fosh in November. And they were the best moments ever.
§02Transcript — part 2
Of your life? And that was stand-up?
Yeah. Yeah. I feel a bit silly saying it because Max Fosh did an hour brilliant show. And it was called *Social Butterfly*—it was spelled with a "Z" for a reason that becomes clear in the show—but he had presentations and everything. And he came on my podcast, I said, "Oh, you're a real stand-up now, you've just done a tour all up and down the country." He was like, "No, I don't feel like a stand-up because I had these aids and it was almost just whatever." And then I felt like an idiot because I'd just done five minutes opening up for him and I was putting online that "I've just done my dream, I've just..." but I had! I had! I was so nervous, I pretty much had a panic attack before I went out. I was looking at Fi going, "I can't do it," shaking, couldn't do it, couldn't do it. Had all my little jokes written on my hand there, but they'd already sweated off. And I tell you what, Steve, I put myself down a lot and we've spoken about self-deprecating humor. I went out on stage, Max Fosh just suddenly went, "Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the stage, JackMaate." I went out, and that was what I was meant to be doing. Everything any comedian had told me on my podcast came to me in that moment and I learned that and applied it on the stage. And I had people eating out of the palm of my hand. And I would make a joke and I would... when I did a bit of stand-up years ago, I rushed through it because I wanted it to be over. I was in the moment and I was able to live in the moment and leave pauses and hit beats and it was well good. I walked out and the guy in the front row had my merch on. So I was like, "There's one guy here that knows," so I was able to talk to him.
You want to do that more?
Yeah, I will do it now. Now I know I can do it, I will do it. There's no feeling like that, like in front of people live and they're just... hearing that laugh is... I've never done heroin, but I imagine that's what it's like to get that hit. And I want that back. That was like the biggest rush that I've felt in a long time.
Are you thinking about doing that as under the Happy Hour brand?
I think I'll do a Happy Hour show, whatever that may be, but then I also want to do a "Jack Dean" or "JackMaate" stand-up show. I've got loads and loads of stand-up bits written down. I've got notepads and MacBooks full of jokes.
There's nothing like it. There's nothing like the real world. We get kind of lost in the digital world as content creators or whatever, but the last few nights at the Palladium have been the most like... nothing has made me feel as alive as that.
Israel Adesanya—I shouldn't normally say this, but fuck it—he was here yesterday, so you know it was the question from him. Usually, we don't tell people who the question's from. But Israel Adesanya wrote a question for you. Bear in mind, this is the GOAT of fighting. The GOAT, right? He wrote a question for you. And you've got to answer this with total honesty—that's the only rule here—and you've got to answer it with detail. He said, "How are you truly feeling?"
Content. I was going to say happy, but I still have some issues I need to iron out. So I'm content. And I feel privileged to be where I am. That's what I'll say. You probably wanted a better answer, but there we go. That's all you're getting.
Perfect. Thank you so much, Jack. Thank you for your time. I'm so glad we finally got to do this because you've been an inspiration for me, I think centrally because of your willingness to be so open and honest with things. And I don't think you'll ever see the impact that openness has on thousands, hundreds of thousands, and millions of people. I think more people need to find it within themselves to do that because as you've said today, it's liberating for you. The therapy of just being able to say it kind of lifts the weight, but it also lifts the weight for everybody listening. And so I applaud you for that and your self-awareness about the journey you've come on as a creator, as a man, and your maturity. So thank you. It's a pleasure to sit here and thank you for the inspiration.
No, thank you, mate. Means a lot. And thank you for having me on the show. It's a great show. So yeah, let's do mine and we'll speak about your favorite sandwich.
Okay, let's go do it.
[Outro Music] [Instrumental music plays while credits and visuals appear on screen].
The thing I think about most, especially when I’m on the go but also when I’m sat here in the Diary of a CEO studio, is the Wi-Fi and internet that we have to work with. In fact, any time I’m filming away from the studio, one of the first things I do when I arrive is open up an app and do a speed test to see how strong the signal is. And the number of screenshots I’ve sent to my team about Wi-Fi signals at different locations is actually pretty crazy. It matters that much to me because it’s such a competitive advantage to have fast Wi-Fi. Because on any given day, if I’m recording, let’s say hours and hours of footage with a podcast guest, I then often have to have my team send that across to our London team who then do the edit. So fast Wi-Fi and internet is not a "nice to have," it is absolutely business mission-critical.
So when it came to finding the best provider who could provide internet and Wi-Fi to our new LA studio, which I'm sat in right now, we looked at every single option. And of all the providers, the one that came back with the steadiest connection, as well as being the cheapest, was today's sponsor, Spectrum Business. Spectrum Business keeps businesses of all sizes connected with fast, reliable internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, and mobile services. Millions of business owners already rely on Spectrum to keep their operations connected. So if you want to join them, head to spectrum.com/business to learn more. That’s spectrum.com/business. Restrictions apply. Service not available in all areas.
[Outro Visuals] [Clips from the "Advent Calendar" video and other JackMaate content play as the video ends].
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