Ivan Toney: I’m Finally Ready To Speak! The Truth About His Football Ban And His Future Team!
Guests: Ivan
Full transcript · Read the full conversation in order, with its original context.
§01Transcript — part 1
In May 26th, you did a famous tweet, I'll speak soon with no filter. You ready to speak? 100%. Ivan Tony! Ivan Tony! Ivan Tony handed an eight-month ban. Seismic news for the Premier League. Facts! Football is brutal. Like 15 being rejected at Leicester. 18, I got to Wolves, got a squad number, took the pictures. I don't know where the clubs are, they're not looking to sign you no more. You have scoliosis in your back. It hasn't affected your game.
Tony! Ivan Tony! I don't feel like it has. Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard. I'm built different. Ivan Tony has won his first England call-up. You missed out on the final World Cup squad. Do you know why? The allegations. Somebody's out to get me, to stop me from playing for England. Ivan Toney has been suspended for eight months with breaching betting rules. I read the whole FA report. You acknowledged that you lied in that meeting with the FA.
I didn't lie, I just couldn't really remember. You admitted to 232 breaches. The majority of those I didn't do, but I took responsibility so the whole process could be cleared up. But the bit that I just struggle with is that using someone else to do the bets. You said to your mate, I can't have that one in my name. Bets for your team to lose. It's a bigger story. What impact was it having on your life? With me, I never show nothing. I never show emotions.
There's been times I've just, I'm in a room on my own to look into thin air and just, it hurt. When I'm back, I'll do the talk on my feet. You're gonna get back to football. Clubs are gonna come knocking. The next club I go to, if I was to move, it would be. I always believe that to understand a person, you have to understand their earliest years. I kind of see our earliest years as the like oven that we're formed in. So if you take me back to your earliest years, what do I need to know about you to understand the man you are today?
What were the characteristics of that environment that shaped you? Just out the front of where I live, it's like on the front is a park. And like the older guys would just be out the front playing and that's me at like seven, eight, trying to get involved. And these guys are like 15, 16 and they were playing rough. No matter if you're... eight, nine, ten, trying to play with us, play with them, they're going to be rough. So that kind of helped me into today's game, how I am now, progress a lot quicker.
And even when I was like 16, breaking through at Northampton, I kind of had that bashing around at a young age by the older guys. So being 16, getting bashed around by men, let's say, I was kind of like used to it. What about hard work? Were you a hardworking man at that age? In terms of running, I never liked running. I was always the lazy one at the back of the group because I knew when it's time to get on the pitch, I will score goals. But like we all know hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard.
So it's kind of like, if you've got the talent and you can work on the hard work and put them both together, then you give yourself the best chance of becoming a top athlete. And you put the work in to improve that part of your game and attitude. Yeah, I had to, because there was, but when I was training, like when I was at Leicester, I got told I wasn't getting a scholarship there. So then I went to, I didn't really wanna play football as much because being rejected at Leicester, it's kind of like, okay, let me just chill for now.
But then like my parents were just like, go to Northampton, because there was a game that we played Northampton when I was at Leicester. And then I think Northampton said, if anybody gets released from them, let us know. I think Leicester must have put me in touch with Northampton. I was kind of like, I'm in an hour and about going. But then I ended up going and it was kind of like, everybody's playing for a scholarship. And then it was like on the last day, everybody already knows they're getting a scholarship.
And I was the only one that wasn't told. So everybody's in the dressing room talking, oh, you've got a scholarship, scholarship. And I'm there still on trial thinking, when am I getting told? And it wasn't until the next morning, like the first meeting where all the scholarship players joined up. I got a phone call and said, he's got a scholarship. We'd like him to come down. And I think that point was kind of like... Okay, I got a scholarship. This is my chance now.
But there was a moment there where you were, because of the rejection from Leicester, you were considering doing something else with your life. Yeah, I feel like nobody likes rejection. Like being rejected is not the best feeling. And it being like, basically you're not good enough to be playing football. How I saw it, you're not good enough to be playing football. Even though it was just, I'm not good enough for Leicester. I might be good enough somewhere else.
Somebody else might value my qualities a lot more than Leicester did. It's hard to see that in the moment though, isn't it? Yeah, it's very hard. It's very hard. At what, how old? 16? It was like 15. 15. Yeah. It's kind of like, you don't want it. You don't really want that rejection again. It's like a kind of fear of getting that again. Then when I did, like I said, when I got the scholarship, I just knew it wasn't happening again. Cause your journey through football just generally has been a real climb.
You know, it's been a real, real climb. And also I reflect on the fact that most, so many kids at that age, 16 years old, they get a rejection and they don't bounce back from it. And if they don't make it to the very top, they'll often take that badly and pursue a different career path. But you were rejected at 16, you persevered, you got into the team at Northampton, you made a good impression there. And then eventually you end up at Newcastle at what, 19?
18. 18 years old. How was that experience? Yeah. It was crazy. First time away from home at such a young age, 18 is like, and as well, you thought you was a man, like from league two, there was talks of you going to a premier league team and like, I would never in the, the fountain changing feel like I was a man. Like there was talks going on, but nothing's done until it's done. So it was kind of like, actually before I was going to Newcastle, I was supposed to go to Wolves.
Right. But I've got there, I've got to Wolves. I've met everybody, went in the changing rooms, got my number on, took the pictures. They come to the contract side. And then I think that was a bit of talk with my agent and the club on some things. And then it related back to us. It was all just confused, me and my family, didn't know what was going on. out of nowhere, the club come out and said, we're not looking to sign you no more due to you having scoliosis in your back.
So we were just so confused from getting the squad number, meeting all the players, meeting all the staff, and then for them to come out and say, your scoliosis in your back, we're not looking to sign you. It's kind of like, is that really the reason? Is there more behind it? But then... from having to go back to Northampton. Like I've said my goodbyes at Northampton and I'm supposed to be going to sign in the Wolves. Then the next day I'm back in Northampton and training with the boys.
Everybody's like, what's happening? And the manager sat me down and said, listen, don't dwell on that. I'm sure other things were coming into place. And I think a few weeks later, Newcastle were interested and I went there. Scoliosis in your back. What is scoliosis and were they aware that you had scoliosis? I feel like they was aware because before we set up to see a specialist because they, I feel like they wanted to know what was going on, how bad it was.
Because I think some scoliosis, it stops you from walking at a certain age and just gets worse and worse. But I feel like we did see a specialist who said you'd be lucky to be walking at 28 still. Really? And then I was just, like, it doesn't really register. Like, you think at the time at 18, I'm thinking, well, I'm fine now. I'm enjoying football now. So it's not really registered. But being 27, closer to 28, you kind of think, well, I'm strong, fit and healthy.
Touched foot continuously. What is scoliosis? Where your back's not straight. It's like, it's like, yeah, yeah, bend. It hasn't affected your game? I don't feel like it has. And yeah, going back to moving to Newcastle, it's like, going from League 2 to Premier League, it's, it's, It's crazy. As soon as I went there, at Northampton, you get recognised, but it's not crazy. And then going to there, Newcastle, I'm in the hotel. Everybody's recognising me straight away.
It's like a crowd outside the hotel waiting to see me and it's kind of like, At 18, this is all happening. So fast. You're away from home as well. Away from home. Damn. A long way as well. What are you feeling when Newcastle make that phone call and they say they're interested in you and then you move there? What does it feel like as an 18-year-old? Because I can only imagine. I was always playing football when I was younger. I was always hoping a little bit to be a footballer.
I knew I wasn't good enough. I'm going with that whole got injured at 16. Yeah. Yeah, it is crazy. It is crazy. It's so exciting. Like you want to tell everybody, you want to say, oh, I'm going here tomorrow. Yeah, I'm going here, I'm going here. But with me, how I am, nothing's done till it's done. Especially after the Wolves stuff. Yeah. Like that was on the back of my mind. So I'm thinking, right, just wait until it's all sorted. Then you can tell everyone.
When I'm so excited, I just want to tell this person, that person, this is something. So yeah, it was crazy. My head was all over the place and thinking, I'm actually going to the Premier League. I've made it, I'm here. But little did I know, I far from made it. What happened? I feel like when you take that step, you get noticed more, you get more money and you just do silly things like, You get mixed in the wrong crowd, going out, here and there, buying things you wouldn't normally buy.
Just a bit naive. And as well, being away from My family, although they kept on telling me, don't do nothing silly, look after your money, this and that, you kind of think, okay, but they're not here to control what I've got hold of right now. I can spend it on this. I can spend it on that. Like you just do things, like I said, things you'd never normally do. Like we're getting personal shoppers to come to the house and who do I think I am? Go to the shop and buy yourself stuff if you want to do that.
So it's like these kinds of things. But yeah, I think it didn't come at me fast. I wouldn't say that. I'd say just like a surprise kind of thing. Like I said, I thought I'd made it. So whatever happens, I'm fine. I'm in the Premier League. What was the advice that you needed at that point that you didn't get? Like if you could go back now and have a chat with Ivan and say, listen, bro, you arrive at Newcastle that day and you get a chance just to say a couple of things to him, what do you say?
I'll sit down and have a long chat with him. It'll be a long chat. No, I think I'd just say, like, this is where the hard work starts. It's not finished. You can't pull it on cruise control. You've got to go to extra gear. Like, yeah, I'm at a Premier League club, but I haven't played yet. I've not got continuous games under my belt to be saying, okay, am I a Premier League player now? So it's like, I'd say to a younger Ivan or anybody that's in that situation, doing such a big jump, to say that's when the hard work starts.
Were you in cruise control, do you think? Yeah. Yeah. If I even was moving, I'd probably put a handbrake on. Really? Yeah, I just thought, I'm Premier League now. As well, you've seen all the big boys, like, literally training there. It's like, yeah, I'm here now. And you played two games before they loaned you out? Yeah, I come off the bench twice against United and Chelsea. And then you went on quite a long loan spell. Barnsley, Shrewsbury, Wiggins, Gunthorpe.
When you find out you're getting loaned out, how do you receive that as a player? I've always wondered this. When you're a young player in the club, you're in the Premier League, because I think there's a lot about Manchester United. As being a fan, we always loan out our younger lads. And I wonder how that's positioned to you as a player and how you receive it. It's not the best feeling. Okay. Because at the time it's kind of like, what do you not want me here?
I'm here now you want to send me away like yeah and you've got the personal shopper coming over exactly yeah yeah so I need to I need to sort some things out to be you can't be in Shrewsbury yeah I don't think you're trouble that far but but now yeah I feel like like it's at that age you don't really think what you're going to learn for I mean first team experience is is probably the best at that age as well. And knowing that, because I feel like, no disrespect to youth team football, it's cool.
Tick-a-tack-a, pretty football. Then going to League One, like I said, on loan, you're going to get bashed around. So you need to be ready for that physical battle. And I feel like going on loan definitely helped me. Looking back now, it helped me a lot. But at the time I was thinking, I don't need to go on loan. I'm ready to be playing in the Premier League. I feel like from young, I've always had that, that my dad always told me, no matter where you are, if you have that mentality that you're a Premier League player, but at the moment you're just on League One, that's fine.
But if you don't have that mentality that, I'm a Premier League player, so I don't need to try here, then it's not going to work out. So it doesn't matter where you are. If you have the mentality, I should be playing in the Prem. But right now, I'm playing here. That's fine. And I feel like you go a long way to where I am now. I'm Premier League player and that bit of advice that my dad gave me was very key. When you went off on loan... And they say, okay, you're leaving Newcastle now.
Does that take you out of cruise control and into like, right, I've got something to prove again? It should. It should have. But it didn't. It didn't really, because I always believed that no matter what happened, where I went, I'm going back to Newcastle. So no matter if I played, didn't play at all or played rubbish, I'm going back to Newcastle. Back to the Premier League. But not knowing the effects that could have, or it did have in the end, even though...
I think all the clubs I went to, bar one, I left top goalscorer. But it was like, I could have, looking back, I feel like I could have went that extra step further. You had a good spell as well at Scunthorpe United. Six goals and 15 appearances. Showed a huge promise while you're on your loan spells as a prolific goalscorer. And then at 22 years old, you transferred to Peterborough United. Yeah. after failing to secure a regular place at Newcastle.
Now that must have been an interesting moment because that's kind of like another knockback, innit? It goes back to the Leicester rejection and stuff. That's like another step down. You've made it to the Prem and now you've got to take a step down. Yeah, it was a massive, no, actually, I wouldn't say a massive knockback. It was a knockback, but it was kind of like, maybe a knockback I needed at the time. Because, like, I remember sitting down with my dad and my agent at the time and saying, listen, Like, me and my dad are brutal.
Whoever we work with, we want the honest truth. No matter if they say, we don't want him, he's not good enough for us, I'd rather my agent tell me that. But how the relationship was with my agent at the time, it kind of sugarcoat things. Right. So me and my dad kind of had to get out of him. What did the club say? Like, just tell us, be honest. And his words were, the club don't think you're good enough already at this moment in time. So it was kind of like in my head, it was like, okay, fine, no problem.
It's time for me to go elsewhere, then regroup and restart. It wasn't like I was too old. It was just a knockback and setback that, like I said at the time, probably needed to kickstart my journey again. Do you think Newcastle were right in saying that? Um, possibly. Like, don't get me wrong, Newcastle are a great club. They had some, they've had some great players and doing very well at the moment. But I feel like I didn't really have a chance in the first team to prove if I was good enough.
I feel personally, anyway. And to be fair, the time was when Newcastle were fighting to stay, stay up in the Premier League when Rafa Benitez first come in. Oh, yeah. It was kind of understandable. He wanted these players to try and keep them up. We wanted experience and stuff more than like to be given youth, younger players a chance and stuff. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. I feel like, I mean, you can't really put so much responsibility on youth players or young players to keep you up in the Premier League.
It's such a big ask, but. I feel like maybe the following season, it was kind of like, could he get a sniff? And I think he kind of brought his own players in and done his own thing, which is, that's football. So off you go to Peterborough. You're closer to your family at this point? Yeah, closer. I'm a mummy's boy at heart, so I leave my mum around close. And did it change your attitude moving to Peterborough on like this whole cruise control thing?
Yeah, it did. And especially when I first went to Peterborough, I wasn't playing. The first, I'd say, 10 games, the strikers that were in front of me was scoring every game, assisting, playing well. But the manager at the time, Steve Evans, was just saying, don't worry, your chance will come. And when your chance comes, it's up to you to take it. And your chance came. Yeah. And you took it. Yeah, 100% took it. You scored 24 goals in 32 League One games at Peterborough, which is insane.
Yeah, like the competitions all over the field, but especially as a striker, you need your job to score goals. And especially when the other two are scoring goals, if you get that one sniff and you don't score, you're back out again. And it gives him another opportunity. The director of football at Peterborough said you were an incredibly hard worker. He also said you were their best defender because you headed away nine out of ten corners. I feel like, yeah, them games, I kind of had a magnet on my head that was just bringing the ball towards me.
But yeah, I think the hard work as well. Like when I'm loved by a manager, I feel like, and a club, I feel like. it's in me to want to give back. I want to do a lot of things for like run for a brick wall for the manager that's wanting me in this position. Do they become like proxy father figures to you in that regard? Cause you're clearly a man that's close to your father. Do they kind of, you know what I'm saying? Is that, is it a similar relationship like where you want to do them proud?
Yeah, a hundred percent. Especially when I signed, like with, when I first signed a piece of it with Steve Evans, like the first time he spoke to me, It was like a friend, like a normal chat, even though you have the respect as a manager. But he was saying, listen, I want you to come in and score goals and go higher. The goals you score for us benefits you and us because we're going to go higher and you're going to go higher. So it's a win-win. And I think him putting an arm around me at that time, knowing I've come from a Premier League club and saying it's not really a knockback.
This is where you kickstart your journey again. Having that, I think, definitely helped me. And didn't you have, I read somewhere that you had a agreement with them, like a verbal agreement that if a bigger club came knocking, they wouldn't stand in your way, Peterborough. That probably was a verbal agreement, but if anybody knows the feet of a staff and the owners, then they probably have different ideas. But I mean, yeah, I guess when I did go, that was the right timing.
Every player thinks when there's a move on the cards, you want to try and rush it through. And if things aren't right, they're not right for a reason. Like you can't rush good things. Good things aren't rushed. I think at the time there was a chance I could have went to somewhere. I was trying to rush it through and he was like, don't worry. Oh really? So there was offers from other clubs? There was offers from other clubs, yeah. Big clubs? Big-ish at the time.
Okay. Like championship clubs? Yeah, championship clubs. And he was saying, just be patient. You're going to get a better club. And I'm just there like, Not kicking my, not throwing my toys out of the pram, just be like, wow, this is a chance I moved out. Used to know what can happen, blah, blah, blah. And then I ended up staying and I went to Brentford, which was probably the best choice in the end. And around this time, I mean, just before then, 21 years old, you become a father for the first time.
Yeah. I mean, that's as well what helps me kickstart my journey as well. Cause I feel like I've got people to provide for. I have expensive taste as well. So it's either choosing my expensive taste or my family. So if I could school goals and help both, then it's perfect. So I think that's what helped me pick things up and how to provide for people. does that focus you? Cause I'm not a dad yet, but it's around the corner for me. I'm sure. Um, does that focus your priorities in a sense?
Like, does it make, cause I speak to my mates who have all had kids and they almost describe that moment when their baby first comes, they kind of see the world differently and they're like responsibilities differently and stuff. 100% 100% like you can't do the things you normally do you have to think baby first in all aspects did it make your game better 100 yeah really yeah 100% definitely how it's in like I want to make him proud so when he's older that's my dad he's done this he's doing this this is this so it's kind of like a pride thing as well as wanting to do well for my family and have a better lifestyle for everybody, not just me and my people I provide for.
When did you find out that Brentford are interested? It was actually training at St George's Park with Peterborough. And there was talks of going here, there. And I was kind of like, I'm going to know when it's something concrete, then let me know. Right now, I just want to focus on training hard because it's easy to be led astray when this club's interested in you, this club's interested in you, you hear loads of things, but then nothing's concrete.
Like... it's all well and good. These are looking at you. These are looking at you. But these times, I'm not a kid no more. When they want me and put a bid in, then we can start talking. Whereas, hearing they're interested, what does that mean? That doesn't mean nothing. Like, everybody can be interested, but nobody wants you. So when Brentford come along and I was interested and actually put a bid in, it's like, okay. I spoke to the manager. He kind of, It was straightforward and said, you're going to come in and be the main man.
We want you to be starting every game and score goals and do your job. Then either take us up or go to a higher club. So you get that call from Brentford. They put a bid in. You speak to the manager... Thomas Frank? Yes. And Thomas says, listen, you're going to be our number one. I think it was a no brainer. I think I did speak to other clubs. Why the clubs? Actually I went up to Rangers. Oh, nice. Spoke with the manager there, which was Steven Gerrard at the time.
And- Manchester United, did you speak to? Yeah, they said I wasn't good enough. I was going to say, I'm going to fucking call him. Nah, yeah, I went to Rangers. We spoke a bit, but then they said there was like two, I think there was two strikers at the time. And then I was looking to get another one in. So it would have been like four strikers, I think. And I think the formation they played, majority of the time, one striker at top. So you would have been like third choice or something?
Yeah, something like this. And then we went to Celtic. We spoke to Celtic. and I think it was like the same there. I'm one of three strikers or something like this. And I think at the time of when it was I was moving, I wanted to be like the main guy. I think the crucial thing for me is playing games. Even though I back myself on competing with other strikers, but I want to know that when I go in, first look through the door on the main man up front and it's up to me to keep my position.
I feel like when I went to, when I spoke to the manager at Brentford, he pretty much said, you're the main guy. And I don't see nobody taking your spot. So you make sure you produce the goods and it's yours really. You've worked at a lot of clubs. You've played at a lot of different clubs. Brentford are special. They're really, really special because they are, based on their resources, they are objectively overachieving. in a really, really significant way.
What is it about Brentford, from your experience, that is making... What is that magic that they have? Hard work. Plain and simple. Hard work. Like, we're not the best technically gifted team. We have some magicians in the team, but other than that, it's just hard work. I mean... And we fear nobody. We respect them, but we don't fear them. So when we go to, let's say, Anfield away or Chelsea away or these kind of games, we know they're probably on paper better than us, got some big names and this and that.
But at the end of the day, the main thing that wins games is hard work and a little bit of quality, I guess, putting the ball in the back of the net. And I feel like throughout the... Throughout the club, everybody knows what the manager wants. You have to be willing to run for your teammate, the person to your left, the person to your right, and the fans and everybody. And everybody knows the responsibility they have on their shoulders when they step onto the pitch.
So I think that's probably what's brought us to where and how well we're doing at the moment. And even like at the moment, the team playing without me, I hear and people say, oh, do you reckon Brentford are going to be like this now? You're not playing this and that. And I'm thinking, no, they're not going to struggle because they work hard. And when you work hard, you give yourself the best chance of winning a game. And I know deep down, Brentford will be fine with or without me.
You've played at a lot of clubs, right? So you can kind of compare and contrast. Is there anything else other than just that work ethic that you've noticed is just different at Brentford? So you've got super hard work. Is there anything else, their approach to things or the strategy or the way that they... I feel like the togetherness as well. How everybody's like, everybody talks to everyone. I've been at clubs where it's like, a certain group sit there, certain groups sit there, like everybody divided.
It's like, but it's not that at Brentford, everybody mixes with everybody. And you got people of Spanish, Danish, which is majority of the club at the moment, English and everything. And everybody just mixes together. So it's not like, Ah, let me, where are my friends? Where should I sit down at lunch? You just get your lunch, sit down here, and you talk with whoever. And the manager? That comes from him. I feel like he makes sure the togetherness and the humbleness.
Like there's no... Nobody at the club thinks they're better than nobody. Like even last season, I scored 20 goals. I wasn't a better nobody. I was the same. The person that doesn't really play too much. They're not less of a person than me. We're all the same. We're all in it together. So I feel like that comes from the manager and his philosophy at the club and how he wants things to be run. What are the things that you often think with managers and CEOs and stuff like this, they have their like core principles, which you just get bored of hearing because they say it over and over and over and over again.
What are those things that he just repeats over and over and over again? Togetherness. Yeah. Humble. Yeah. And attitude. And I guess he polices that pretty. Yeah. All the time. It's all over the club. It's all in the meetings. which is probably why, like I said, we're doing so well as a club and as a whole unit. What's the dressing room, the training ground dressing room culture like? Again, I ask this because I've spoken to so many players at United in particular, and especially in the Fergie era, they always talk about the self-policing culture in the dressing room.
You know, like what's that like versus other clubs? Yeah, like I said, yeah, it's good. There's other clubs I've been at, it's been good as well, but not how it is in Brentford. I feel like Brentford is probably one of the best dressing rooms I've been in, in terms of everybody knows their drill. Everyone knows their position, everybody's helping others. Everybody's just like their respective, something's on the floor, tidy, pick up, pull it in there.
Like them kind of things is key. If you want to be achieving something big. And I feel like with that in the changing room, as well as in the gym or in the dinner hall, is key and what is up for everybody. It was like one big family unit. 26 years old, you're named Brentford's player of the season. You scored 12 goals in the first Premier League season and then you scored 20 goals in your second Premier League season, finishing third in the Golden Beat rankings behind Haaland and Harry Kane.
§02Transcript — part 2
That's big. Yeah. It is big, it is big. But sometimes I don't really realise how big it is. Because sometimes at home I'm thinking... Yeah, well, I'm not first. In my head, if you're not first, you're last. Then, like my family say, look who you're behind and look at the caliber of players that are playing in the Premier League and you've scored more than these guys. I'm always thinking, yeah, but I could have scored more. Do you think you could score more than Haaland?
What have you got? It's like 30-something, 36. 36. I mean, not... I mean, not more, but I look back on chances that should have been a goal. And I feel like there probably is like 15, 16 chances that I probably could have scored or should have scored. So if I was as clinical as Haaland was, not to say I'll beat him, but I could be a lot higher than 20. England. England's football team. I think I saw a post on your Instagram a couple of weeks ago about that being a huge dream for you, to play for England.
Yeah. I think everybody wants to play for England. Yeah, when I was a kid, just kicking the ball at the shed. I remember just screaming, like, Gerrard's name and Lampard's name, like, when I'm on the field, just kicking. And, like you said, when that opportunity was around and I was in talks of it. It just didn't feel real from being Ivan from Northampton, just playing out the front, getting bashed around by the older lot to actually having a chance to play for England was something I would never have dreamt of.
You missed out on the final World Cup squad. Lots of circulating rumours about why. Do you know why? I guess it comes down to the allegations on the betting scandal. But I feel like, personally, I felt like it was a bit of a questionable time when they decided to bring it all out. And then when they actually dealt with the situation come the end of the season, it was kind of like, why would you bring it out then? And then punish me at the end of the season.
So they brought it... So I guess you're saying that you suspect they brought it out at that time to prevent you going to play for England? I assume so, and to make it a bigger story. Ah, okay. Personally, anyway, I don't know if it's true. I'm not to know what's behind the scenes, but I feel like if you have somebody go into the World Cup that's... supposed to be betting, then it's kind of like a bigger story. What's the... I'm not very clued up on this whole FA thing.
So the FA... the England team play under the FA. Yeah. And the FA are also the sort of body that brought the charges against you. Yeah. So they, so one might assume that they released the charges at that point because if they didn't, then there might be some ramifications on the England team or the perceptions of the England team or something. Yeah, I assume so. Right. Like, I'm not too aware of all this stuff, but I feel like it was a bit of a coincidence when they decided to bring it all out and then, having to be dealt with the punishment at the end of the season, so far after, it's kind of like, I mean, you know, well, I feel like, yes, I'm banned now, but the biggest punishment for me was missing out on playing at the World Cup, personally.
I felt more hurt and, what's the word? It's kind of like, Yeah, I just felt down around the time. I felt like somebody's out to get me at that time to stop me from playing for England. In my head, that's just how I seen it at the time. It's like, they want to punish me for this, missing out on England. The World Cup, that's everybody's dream, to be playing at the World Cup. And then further down the line, banned me as well. It's kind of like... a double hit, I feel.
In a sense, whereas, like I said, if he's going to stop me from going to the World Cup, do it there and then and deal with it, deal with the whole situation. Rather than doing that, missing out on the World Cup, and then let me play the rest of the season, and then banning me after the season, it doesn't add up in my head, to be fair, anyway. Yeah. When you say I felt down about it, what does that mean in real terms? If I was a fly on the wall in your life when that information came in?
That was probably my, excuse me, that was probably the lowest point. I was like, with me, I never show nothing. I never show emotion too tough. But I think that was probably the lowest point I felt. Like you'd asked me about it, I was like, yeah, it's what it is. But it's what it is, it's kind of like- I don't want to talk about it. Yeah, damn. It hurt. It did hurt. Do you cry? No, I don't feel like crying solves anything. Personally, that's my personal views.
Everybody says to me, you need to show emotion. You can cry, it's okay. But like, I feel like I've only cried once when I see my nan cry from losing my pap. And seeing her hurt as much as she was. killed me inside and then it was kind of like I didn't cry cry but it was like tears in my eyes coming down and it was kind of like it was painful do you express your how you're feeling to anyone in your life at that point to your partner to your family your mum your dad when you when you find out that you're not going to play for England and they've sort of you know the rumors are out about this gambling situation do you tell anyone how you're actually feeling Um, no, but people that know me know my actions and how that leads to how I'm feeling.
Like, I'd be a lot more snappy about things. Or I'd just be like, I can just be like, and someone be talking to me, and it's not like really registering. But my head's not really in the room kind of thing. And that people that know me know, like, something's up, something's wrong. What was the reality of the situation? What was going on inside your head? And how was it? When you say down and you say that was the lowest point, what does that mean in real terms?
I wouldn't say depressed as such, but it was kind of like not far off that. If anything, towards that direction, but not completely. Because like still how I stay in my head, it's like next opportunity, next day, another day is another day to put things right and try and be as positive as I can. Have you ever had anxiety? Probably, but how I am, I don't let it get to me as much. Like I'd say the loan spells when I'm on loan, I'm in a room on my own.
There's been times I've just literally sat there without the TV on, just sat there. And just like chilling and just looking to thin air and just thinking about things. But I'd never, like I said, I'd never let nobody know how I'm feeling. Cause how I am as a person, I feel like it eats away at me, but I'm just always a smiley one. Always like, I ask people at Brentford now, I'm the joke, I'm making sure everyone's fine. These kind of things. I think that's my kind of way of beating my emotions.
If I see this person happy from me doing that, then it kind of brings me up to make me happy kind of thing. Did you not speak to anyone like a professional about this stuff? Because I always think when we bottle up our emotions, it's not like they go away. It's almost like they eat us up from inside and they come out in other ways, like you were saying, snappiness or whatever. Surely there's someone around you that said you need to see someone. Yeah, there was.
But as well, me being stubborn, it's kind of like, nah, I'm fine. It's fine. I'll be right tomorrow. I'll be right later. I'll be right next week. I feel like I can speak to anybody in my family, but my stubbornness just don't allow me to. I think a lot of men can relate to that, you know? Yeah, 100%. I feel like I do need to get better at that. Personally. In May 26th, you did a famous tweet. Do you know the tweet I'm talking about? Yeah. I'll speak soon with no filter.
You ready to speak? And what did that tweet mean? That was just speak on everything, really. But obviously when I'd done that, it went crazy. And then I think my family just said, listen, you don't need to talk. Just when you get on a pitch, let your feet do the talking. What's it? Damage is done. You can't talk and it's not going to help no situation. If anything, could not damage my reputation or my career, but just make people think. Not that I care what people think.
It's just could put in a works that, who do you think he is? That kind of thing. But it doesn't benefit no parties. What headspace were you in when you tweeted that? Probably a reckless one. Really? Yeah. How were you feeling? Thinking... I don't care attitude, I'd say. Kind of a defence mechanism against... Pretty much, yeah. Against everybody. Like, even, like, little things, like... For the whole situation. Not, like, my friends. My friends and my friends are the ones I stick with.
They're the people I chill with all the time. But it's even, like, when I go... I don't know if it's just me thinking certain things, but it's like when I go to certain places, maybe some people don't want to be associated with me in a certain way of, obviously because of media kind of thing and it's kind of like, not killing their image, but it's kind of like, between this guy, he's a match fixer. He's match fixing football. And I even, I remember at the time when there was allegations, I wanted to go into a restaurant and I was like, no, you can't.
We're not taking you. The restaurant? A restaurant. I was like, what do you mean? As are, because the allegations, we're not allowing you in or something like this. I was actually so confused. I was thinking for starters, it's allegations. And secondly, you're a restaurant. How can you not let someone in due to bad press? That's what they call it, bad press. I was just baffled and even to like my car insurance, they wouldn't insure me due to the whole scandal.
I was just like, car insurance, they don't want me on their books because, which was baffling. I read through the whole FA report, many, many pages. I think it was like 25 odd pages. I have it here just to understand the case better, just so I made sure I didn't make any errors in my observations. But there's no, I think there's actually a line in there where the commission say they didn't believe you were doing any match fixing. That's far from match fixing.
Yeah. I wrote that down in my notes that, um, They concluded that you hadn't been match fixing or anything like that in their report. So that allegation from whoever said that, the restaurant or whatever, doesn't seem to have a basis in the report at all. And I'm sure there was certain articles on saying match fixing as well, which is, that's probably the media for you, making it a big talking point. When the FA first contact you and they ask, they make a request for information, don't they?
So they want to know more information. This is dating back to 2022, I believe. When you get that first contact, how does that feel? Like your dad or your agent must have told you that the FA have been in touch? Well, they want information from as far back as 2015. So it was kind of like, I haven't got that phone that I had back then to give you information. But I wanted to cooperate how I can to let you investigate what you want to investigate. And when the club actually pulled me into a room and they spoke to me and said, they're Fabian in touch with you, match fixing, this and that.
They want to speak to you. And I said, okay. This is Brentford. This is Brentford, yeah. I said, okay, no problem. Then he was like, have you done any bets whilst you've been at Brentford? And have you been betting on football? And I was like, no, I haven't done no bets that are match-fixing football. It's like, okay, well, the FA want to speak to you. Don't delete nothing on your phone because there's a system that they said they can get old messages or whatever they said.
So I said, no problem, I'm not deleting nothing. If they can go through what they want to go through. And then they called you in for an interview in May 2022. Yeah. And they ask you all these questions again about what you've been involved in with betting, etc. Yeah. And they asked me certain things that happened like seven, eight years ago. And to the top of my head, so much information from me at one time. It's kind of like, I actually can't remember.
I can't remember. And I think I was in there for like five hours. Five hours? Yeah. But at that time, you maintained to them that you're not better on football. Yeah. And I wasn't aware of what I was trying to get at. You acknowledged later on that you basically lied in that meeting with the FAO? I didn't lie, I just couldn't really remember what they was asking for at the time, I couldn't remember until they brought some things in front of me and it was kind of like, okay, he's talking about my memory.
And we, like I said, I cooperated with everything they wanted to do. And we kind of spoke on it and then I told them the truth about everything. One of the things people might find surprising is they asked for your mobile phones and stuff. And then they like image your mobile phones to check like all the messages you've sent to people. going back a long time on these phones to find out everything you've been said. And also, as you said, they ask you not to delete any messages, which you didn't from what the commission said.
But how does that feel when the FA asks for your mobile phone and you know they're going to scan it for everything? It doesn't feel... Yeah, it's just kind of like... it's your privacy and they're like invading it. It's kind of like, I've got something pitched on there. I wouldn't want them to see, like these kinds of things. pretty much like you have to go with what they're saying. Otherwise, I feel like, I think you get a longer ban for not cooperating or something like this.
So what can I do? Yes. You want to take my phone, take my phone. And all your bank statements as well. They asked for your bank statements, which you handed over as well. Yeah. You handed over, I believe multiple phones. No, just the one phone. Oh, just the one phone. I thought there was a, there was some, They said that was another phone, but that wasn't the one phone I had. And then eventually you admit to 232 breaches of their rules, the FA rule E8, which is betting over five seasons from 25th of February 2017 to betting up until January 21st.
Yes, I believe so. And like I said, there was people saying I was match fixing, but none of it was match fixing. It was just, like I said before, I was betting on myself to score first from, I think this was a while back. And it's kind of like, that's not, like I'm not trying to, not trying, I'm still trying to do the right thing. It's not like I'm smashing someone and getting a yellow card here, there and everywhere. Yeah, and the report actually does say that.
It says that you weren't, the commission said that you weren't match fixing, which is a completely different thing. They're making bets on games that you're, either you're playing and betting on yourself to score or betting on the team when you're not in the team, which is what, from what I read, which is what happened. Gambling generally, when did that start in your life? When did you start first gambling? I think it's just kind of like, as you're young, it's like a little flutter, they call it.
like even like the fair arcade kind of thing just trying to win a little change or something or these kind of things so i'd say like around 15 yeah 15 as such and it and it got progressively worse or more intense yeah i'd say the more money you get the more the higher the states go it's kind of like Oh, if I lose this, it's fine. This is coming next month. Did you not realise, you know, throughout those sort of five years when you were batting a lot, 232 breaches, that your relationship with batting was unhealthy?
I think on the 232 breaches, like there was some bets in there that I don't recall making, but I was willing to take responsibility just to get the process done. all over and done with because having that hovering over me and trying to concentrate on my career is not the best feeling. Far from the best feeling and I don't well to finish on 20 goals with that hanging over me but in terms of thinking do you have a problem it's kind of like you don't think of if I lose this this is going to happen.
So it's like, once I won this, this can happen. You never think of the negatives. You'd always think of the positives. And being on the money I was on, which I thought was a lot of the time, and it's kind of like, it's fine. I'll get there in the back end of the month. Oh, that's coming back this month. He owes me this. It's fine. What impact was it having on your life betting? Um... I feel like it was just the impact it would have. It was just waiting for payday.
Right. Like no matter what happens with them, you're waiting for payday. You could spend your wage and then wait for payday. Spend your wage, wait for payday. Yeah, well I'd pay and sort everything I need to pay for first. And then it's like, all right, got this to play with. Do that, it's fine. Payday will come soon. So it wasn't like, spend this money I should be giving here or paying on this. You took care of your bills, man. I took care of what I needed to be care of.
And in my head, it's kind of like, my money is my money. But I couldn't spend it how I want to. Yeah, pretty much like that. I've made my own money. It's up to me how I want to spend it. One of the things that was quite surprising is bets for your team to lose when you weren't playing in the team. You knew betting was wrong, right? You knew that as a footballer you weren't allowed to bet. My knowledge of... My knowledge of betting on football. I don't think, I recall once, somebody coming and just giving a talk on their experience betting, not you can't bet on football.
So it wasn't like, I shouldn't be betting on this, shouldn't be betting on that. And I feel like, I think the bets that were on my team to lose when I'm not playing, I think a few of the majority of those were within the bets that I know about personally, I think I didn't do, but I still took responsibility of them for them. So the whole process could get cleared up. And you don't know about some of these bets you're saying because you did them through somebody else.
Yeah. And you did them through somebody else because you knew you weren't allowed to, right? It wasn't through that I knew I wasn't allowed to. It was that I didn't want my parents seeing what I'm doing with my money. This was a point of contention in the documents. The FA said, you know, he's betting through somebody because he didn't want the FA to find out. You're saying you bet through somebody else because your parents, the mail was going to their house and you didn't want them opening up the post and seeing it.
Yeah, that's right. Essentially. That was a point. I mean, the commission go their own way on that. And then, OK, so moving on from that, there's all these aggravating factors in the document. Was he aware of the rules? I think you eventually admitted that you were aware of the rules in terms of not being able to bet on football. going back to the days, I think, at Northampton, I think, was it Northampton? One of your previous I think your previous chairman at the football club was thrown out because of a betting scandal.
And then you have a relative in your life that was also issued with a breach of the FA rules for betting in 2007 as well. So the commission concluded that you were aware of the rules and that you couldn't bet, but you sort of counteract that by saying you didn't have I think it was kind of a grey area. Right. I think there was a time where, like I said, the clubs I've been at, they were at the beginning of every season. I feel like they'd have somebody come in but not actually tell you what you can and what you can't bet on.
What would that person say? Just like broad- Just his experiences on betting. He'd come in and say, this is me betting, and then I've lost this much. I've come through this. So when, if you think about betting, don't do it. So it wasn't like, you can't be betting on football or you can't be betting on, yeah, you can't be betting on football. It was just his experiences of going through a gambling stage. So you didn't know you couldn't bet as a player?
No. I think it was a grey area. You'd hear, you can, you hear that, you can't. And then there's certain things you say you can't bet on. With me personally, I feel like it was a grey area. And you admitted in the second aggravating factor was about knowing whether you, basically admitting to whether you were betting or not. And in the interview with the commission, during the process, you said that you had lied early on by saying, I don't bet on football in an earlier interview.
But, you know, that was one of the first interviews you had and you'd responded, I don't bet on football. And that wasn't accurate. Yeah. Yeah, that was when obviously they threw everything at me. I thought if I was just denying it, then it's all fine. They wouldn't find nothing, but then... Obviously they'd take your phones and everything. Yeah, then everything went through and then... Yeah, I admitted to what I'd done. In the FA, the fourth aggravating factor was whether the player sought to conceal his identity when he set up his own betting account in 2017.
The commission didn't accept the FA submission there. They didn't believe that you'd concealed it in that regard. Whether the player deleted messages, issue number five, commission concluded that there wasn't evidence that you'd deleted any messages. I was accused of deleting messages, yeah, that's right. Yeah, by the FA, but the commission said that they didn't have substantial evidence for Yeah. I was told not to delete nothing from the club. The commission couldn't find any evidence that you had deleted anything.
And then the phone issue we've talked about already, the last issue was around whether you had a gambling addiction and they brought out a psychologist called Dr. Philip Hopley, who looked at you, did interviews with you. He's a highly qualified and experienced psychiatric expert, according to the commission. And he interviewed you on two occasions and he formed a clear opinion that you had a gambling addiction. And accordingly, the commission accepted the findings of the doctor on this issue.
And that's part of the reason that you were given a more lenient sentence. Because Dr. Hopley said that you had an impulsive compulsive disorder. Yeah. Was that the first time you'd heard of gambling addiction? Yeah. Through this process, this tribunal? Yeah, because I feel like it wouldn't be in me to bring myself forward to speak to one of these people to see if I did have one. So it's kind of like, like I said, my stubbornness comes into play on this one.
It's kind of like, no, I'm fine. I can stop when I want to stop. Has someone explained to you what a gambling addiction is since then? A little bit, yeah. We did speak with us happily around what addiction is, but it's kind of like you don't allow yourself to believe it. Like, I feel like if you want to stop doing something, I feel like people think in their head, I can stop if I want it. But not knowing deep down, you probably can't. Could you have stopped?
Probably. yeah, it's, it's, I feel like it's 50-50. You could have stopped, but I feel like the thrill on it is kind of like what keeps you going. Because the FA, their sort of counterpoint to that was that there was periods where you, you didn't, you didn't gamble. So they were, they were saying that to the commission that, you know, it's not gambling addiction because there's parts of his journey where he's not gambling or he's betting on other things, for example.
Um, Do you still gamble now? No. Anything? No. Any betting at all across any? No. Has that required therapy or any sort of professional support? I think it's kind of being in the public eye. If I was going into these places and these kind of things, I think it's more the embarrassment that it's still continuing. This kind of thing. So I wouldn't allow myself and... Like you look back. I feel like you sit, take a back seat and look at all the money you've lost and what you could have went on.
And what, and especially now having people to provide for, it's kind of like, you can't be spending that money on this. It can go to here or like, just manage your money better. How I look at things and how I look at me, I foresee that as being naive. We don't really get much information, do we, growing up about gambling? Or really how to spend our money or tax, especially I think about you guys as young 20 year olds that are just playing football and then you become millionaires because you're good at it.
It's kind of different for my pursuit because I'm building a business, you have CFOs, you have finance people around you, you have controls, budgets, forecasts, P&Ls, all this stuff. So, you know, you're surrounded by like money minds and brains around you when you're building a business. But being a young 20 year old millionaire who I'm presuming nobody gave you financial education. No, it's kind of like, like you said, yeah, I've been having that much money at a tender age.
It's kind of like, what do I do with it? And I'm not a family that comes from money. So it's not like my parents could helped me a lot with that. But they would have their say on some things, but it's like, you kind of have to try and just manage it yourself. And just assume doing this is the right thing. You don't know what you don't know. Pretty much. The bit of this case that I found difficult is using someone else to do the bets. Because for me, that points to like, he did know, I think that's what people would think.
They'd look at that and go, of course, 100%. Conceal it. Because I'm thinking, your mum and dad ain't opening your post at 27 years old. Like, my mum ain't going to open my post. No, this was when I was away. Oh, you were young, but you were like 20. Yeah, so I know my post, it goes to my parents. And I feel like, of course, your parents want to be, knowing what's going on if you're getting this letter through that's, you're not paying this or... Like I said, seeing what you're spending your money on.
I feel like, because we're a tight family, my mum would worry about that. And there was actually times where she's opened it and she's kind of said certain things about it. And the FA had highlighted the text message you'd sent me. You'd said to your mate, I can't have that one in my name. What was the app I gambled on on your phone this time from text messages that they'd found? That's the bit that I struggled with was I was like, I wasn't sure there, but this chapter of your life has clearly been a big learning moment.
100%, I feel like looking back on what I've done, well, I changed some bits probably, but. It is what it is. And the manner I am now continuing forward is kind of, it is different to what I was before. Do you take, like when we think about responsibility for our actions, what responsibility do you take for all of this? Where you say, listen, this is what I take responsibility for here. And this is also like, going back to a question I asked earlier about like, what do you wish someone had said to you when you first did that?
I don't know, those bets five, six, seven years ago. What's the responsibility you take? And what's the lesson you've taken from this process? I think the responsibility I take was, yeah, I was betting on myself to score first, which now I know you shouldn't be doing, which I take responsibility and I take full responsibility for the punishment I'm getting now. So it would be kind of like, and what I tell my younger self around them kind of times, it's like, manage your money better, don't get mixed in the wrong crowd, I say, and just don't follow fashion.
have your own mind frame on what you should and shouldn't be doing. Or if you don't know, look more into it. And if that's what you really want to do, look more into it and what you can and can and can't do. It's interesting because when they were deliberating your punishment, one of the things that came to mind is perception and the perception it would send to the rest of the game. Do you think they made an example of you? I feel so, yeah. Do you think that's right?
I can't tell. I don't think it's right, no. Because you're a high-profile Premier League player. Obviously, if you get away with doing something like this, other players at lower levels could also emulate it. So they've got an opportunity here to send a message. 100%. 100%. And I feel like a lot of people think that in terms of If no disrespect to lower leagues, but if I was... We actually did look at some cases that were somewhere similar, somewhere worse, and their punishment wasn't like how mine is.
I think the fact that it's the opportunity, the fact that I'm playing in the Premier League, doing well, sniff around England, it's kind of like, right, this is our chance to punish him, then people know this is kind of... the punishment you're looking at if you want to do what I've done. It's funny because I was actually surprised to read that in the analysis section of this document where it says the perception of the impact of football betting on the integrity of the game is a key consideration when deciding on your sanction.
which does kind of suggest that they're quite intentional in making sure that they make an example of you, there or thereabouts in their words. And obviously you have a huge position of influence, so that's key. And then they submit that the FA suggested that you get 12 months ban as a suspension, I believe. And that was their final sanction. The commission didn't accept that. Ordinarily, the commission would have imposed 15 months suspension had you not pled guilty.
Yeah. to the charges which lowered your sanction and then also you got another reduction in the sanction because of the findings from the doctor who found that you had a gambling addiction which brought your sentence down to eight months um and you'll find 50 000 pounds It's interesting because, you know, I'm a huge football fan, so I want to see you play. And you're on such a role. Brentford are on such a role. So like as a football fan, although you smashed United last year, like it's so good to see like a young black English striker tearing up the game at its peak.
§03Transcript — part 3
It's gutting to see you out of the game. It is. And I feel like how I am and people know how I stay. This is nothing. I know for a fact I'll come back stronger than this and better than I was before. Like this gives me the hunger again to recharge and come back on another level. Like I said before earlier, no time to dwell on things. No time to dwell on things. And it's like, just when that first game comes and I can play then, It's not a ballgame.
It's on. When you found out you were suspended for eight months, how did that feel? What's that like? Because you know you're in the peak of your powers right now, right? Yeah, I know. It's painful, but I feel like the hard part is kind of nah. Because right now I'll be playing football matches and I can only be around the players and at the football ground and things like this. And it's kind of like, okay, that's what you want to do, punish me from there.
But I feel like keep me away from the ground. If I wasn't as strong as I was, in my head that would break some people. And I would be talking about mental health and all these kind of things. And what's that kind of doing to a player that's not allowed in the environment, even though you can't play games, but keeping away from the training ground, knowing football's their life and that's all they've done from such a young age. How is that going to help them at all?
Yeah, I completely agree with you. I think the sanction itself is important because it does send a message and I agree with that. But the bit that I just struggle with is that can't train at the club. And we know, as you point out there, like mental health, keeping active is such an important thing, especially if you've been playing football since you were a kid. And it's your purpose. It's what you know. So psychologically and physically, there's a real strong case to keep you active.
And I've seen a lot of people have their say on this. A lot of people think, you know, you could have trained at the ground and then use that time to educate young players on gambling, that would have been useful. But to keep you out of the club, not allow you to train and to kind of push you out on your own, it seems, doesn't feel like it's smart. It doesn't add up with what, like the things they push forward, like, Like we say, the whole football community is big on mental health, then the FA go and do this and push me away from the whole football environment.
By all means, it's not a place where I want people to feel sorry for me. That's the last thing I want. And me as a person, people that know me would know that's not one thing I'm trying to achieve. But it's the fact that what if somebody that's not as strong as me in the head happens to be going through this kind of situation and their punishment is they're not allowed at the training ground. Like, that would break them. Like, right now, not being around the training ground.
It does hurt me, but I just know when I'm at the training ground, train harder, be ready for the game when I can play. But it's... Yeah, like I said, it's not a nice feeling and the whole purpose of... not being allowed at the training ground is baffling to me. But... Do you have hard days still? Yeah. Yeah. I feel like everybody has hard days. I mean, like with, through this process, has there been days where you're ups and you're downs and difficult days where you start, you have low moments because you are away from football, the press is on top of you?
Yeah. I feel like I have a hard hours, hard two hours kind of things in the mornings. I'd wake up and be like, can't be yesterday. But getting a shower, get active. When you're there working, it's kind of like out your head. As much as you don't want to do it, you'll see in the long run that time I didn't want to get up. I didn't want to put the work in. It's playing off now. Whereas if I'm saying, oh, tomorrow, and then tomorrow comes, I'll do it the next day.
So you're still training? Yeah, still keeping fit, still doing my own thing. Working with a personal trainer? Yeah, personal trainer, which is good. And it's not like a lenient one, it's one that pushes me. So I feel like I've not got it good, but I've got the best people around me to keep me fit and keep me going. And like I said, my family is key. My family is the one that's, they're the people that's helping me going as well. And especially my children.
You're a mummy's boy. Yep. Sometimes in these moments, it's difficult for us, but it's harder to watch the impact it has on our family, right? Yeah, 100%. I feel like, like even when the whole thing was, it was like, there was allegations and the people like, going into my mum's work and just saying certain things and, I'd be at a petrol station, they scream certain things and I'd be with my family and my children. And people would just be like, shouting dumb things out.
Like what? Just like, oh, you're putting, like shouting things out, you're putting a tenor on today's game or these kind of things or just silly immature things and how I am. I'm kind of hot headed, but especially when family are involved and my children are around, it's kind of like, It's hard for me not to want to say something or do something or these kinds of things. It's like going through that period, it's hard and people that you wouldn't normally speak to or my parents or family you wouldn't normally speak to they'd pop up and just be like ah what's happening with Ivan so it's when the bad things come along now you want to talk and find out what's going on whereas when I'm scoring goals or getting picked for England you don't really want to say too much But that's life and that's how people are.
And we don't miss them. We see them. We see the evil eyes, so it's... Has this process been, has it illuminated things for you in certain areas of your life, certain people and certain people that are there for you? Because even thinking about the gaffer, Thomas Frank, he's come to your defence multiple times, talking about how he disagrees with the way that it's been handled, the sanctions, and he thinks that you should be able to train with the team and be out there educating young kids, et cetera, et cetera.
He disagrees with the decision that the commission made. Not just him, Gareth Southgate as well. Gareth Southgate, yeah, he talked sport, wasn't he? Yeah, yeah, I know, I spoke to him as well. How does that feel then? What does that mean to you? It feels good knowing I've got them behind me, obviously the England manager and my club manager backing me 100%. It feels good and it gives me a bit of extra strength to make sure when I'm back, I'm firing.
And it gives me that bit of hunger. Not that I'm lacking it, but I feel like the extra boost to feel like, okay, it's on when I'm back kind of thing. And the club standing by you in such a way, has that kind of cemented your loyalty a little bit to Brentford? Yeah, I feel like, like I said earlier, I want a manager and a club to really want me and put their arm around me. And I feel like throughout the whole situation, Brentford have done that. Even the players as well.
I spoke to loads of them. They don't agree with it, but it is what it is. And your mum? Yeah. Going back to the tweet, when I put that tweet out, She was the first person that rang me and messaged me and said, listen, you don't need to do nothing. Just don't do no more, please. I've been saying how she's been sick for, she feels sick in her stomach for an hour long throughout the whole situation. And putting it out there, she's just thinking it's going to damage me, damage her and damage her family and things like this.
So I just thought, okay, Let me just do the talk on my feet. And when I'm back, get the family, not smiling, but happy again. And I'm sure they can't wait to see their son back on the pitch screwing girls. Does it mean the most to you to make her happy and to make her feel good? All my family, yeah. I feel like she always just texts me randomly and she's like, she always says, I don't want to bother you. Sometimes I just check on what I'm sitting on WhatsApp to wait for you to come online to know you're okay and alive and well.
And that's just, that's how my mum is. Like, there'll be sometimes, my mum, she knows, and she does, she calls me random times. It'd be 12 at night or it'd be early doors. Just checking in, I was fine. Love you so much, this and that. But yeah, that's her favourite one, checking to see if I'm online or WhatsApp, rather than pestering me in her eyes. But so I think making them happy and making them smile is what gives me the thrill to do well. The Brentford fan base?
Yeah, strong, massive. Showing you a lot of love as well? Yeah. Everywhere I go, I get love from the Brentford fans, so that's good and that's key. What's your, you're going to get back to football. And I can feel you've got a certain fire inside you. Yep. I think. I just, not that I need to prove anybody wrong, but there's a lot of haters and doubters out there thinking he ain't going to be the same man when he comes back. Actually, they're right.
I'm going to be a different man. I'm going to be even better than that guy that scored them goals before. How do you know? Because I'm built different. My mentality is different. I'm not one of these, oh, he could have been a great player. Hadn't he done this? I'm going to go beyond that. Like I said, not a point to prove, but a point to prove to myself. How do you ensure that happens? Like, what is it that, because I think about controllables, what is it that you can control to make sure that you come back an even better player?
Is it just training harder? Is it, what is it that you're... It's training harder, but in my head, every time I step on a pitch, I'm thinking in my head, I'm going to score today. I'm gonna score, I know I'm gonna score. When a chance comes, I'm gonna score. Cause in the game, your bounds get a chance that you should be scoring. So in my head now I'm thinking, right, when I do play and I do get that chance that I should be scoring, it has to be a goal.
So it's gonna be a goal. What if it's not? The next one will be a goal. What if it's not? It will be. That'll be two goals. You know, Brentford is a fantastic team. I think of all the teams in the Premier League, if we talk about admiration, I really admire Brighton at the moment, but Brentford, I absolutely think, are a brilliant, brilliant team. Really a tonne of admiration for them. There's a lot of people that are obviously linking you to other clubs and saying, oh, is he going to join this?
Manchester United. All of that. How do you receive all of that? You know, all these links to... Because everyone's looking for a striker. Strikers are like the hardest to find. Goal scorers in the Premier League. You've got Haaland, you've got Kane, he's gone. Now you're technically the second best striker that's currently in the league on paper. So, you know, these big clubs are going to come knocking. They're going to say, you know, Chelsea's got fucking unlimited money over here.
United, we need a striker. How do you receive all of that? I mean, like from young and like I said, I don't let this all affect me. Obviously you hear it all going on in the background, but my job is to keep training well when I get the chance in the games to keep scoring and doing well. But I think everybody wants to play at the top of the tree and not that Brentford aren't there, but I feel like playing for a big club, fighting for trophies and these kinds of things, everybody wants to do.
And if the chance was to come along, I think I'd be silly not to look more into it, but I feel like, yeah. And the manager knows that I want to be playing at the highest level possible. And whenever that time comes, then so be it. But I can't think, my time at Brentford's been, been good. It'll be probably one of the best times in my career. And that's a special club. They've just got a culture there, which is super special. So that culture you described will get the best out of you as a player, for sure.
So it's like great talent, great culture equals great results. It's like one plus one equals three. Yeah, no. Yeah, like the next club I'll go to, if I was to move, it would be like the right club. When you say the right club, you're not talking about Liverpool, are you? I heard you're a Liverpool fan. Yeah, a Liverpool fan, a Liverpool fan. You've been a Liverpool fan your whole life? Yeah, I've been a Liverpool fan my whole life. But from young, I've liked Arsenal.
I like watching Arsenal from how they play and kind of how passionate fans are. But yeah, I'm a Liverpool fan, Liverpool boy at heart. So Liverpool at heart, love how Arsenal play, love their style. Yeah. Anything about Manchester United, Ivan? I liked Bobatov when he was there. Okay. I liked watching United a lot when Bobatov was there, so. Okay. But we do actually need a striker, so. I've actually got a contract here that Eric and Richard Arnold have given me, so.
imagine no well listen I hope you I just want to see you back playing again because I think it's a gift to the Premier League your talent and also when I look at your story you didn't have a straight line that a lot of people have in football you went up down up down up down up down and you persevered because the talent is you can't argue with it. You can't argue with the talent. And so this whole gambling section of your life, it's a bit of a blip in there.
It's a hurdle you've overcome and you've taken your punishment. You move on from that. You admit responsibility. Yeah. Yeah. And so now it becomes the back of, again, about the football. Yeah. Like you said, the journey has been, it's been wild. It's been crazy. And if I was to read a book on, Myself, I'd say this guy's done a lot and been through a lot and he's still fighting and he's still climbing to the top of the tree. How's he managed all that with everything that's come on?
What's the goal? You know, if we have this conversation again at the end of your career and we sit down here and we go, man, and you go, damn, that was a successful career, Steve. What happened? I want to be playing for England and scoring goals. I don't want to just be, oh, he played England a couple of times. I want to be the main man wherever I go. And for England, I know. You've got Harry Kane that is probably one of the best strikers in the world, if not the best.
So, and that's what I'm up against. So, I need to get to that level. So, it just takes... working hard and keep fighting. You've got Euros around the corner as well. Yeah, and that's another place I want to get to, which I do believe that in my head, I'm ready to get to, so. And at club level, what are your ambitions there in football? Win trophies, win some silverware. I feel like, I feel like I want to play for the highest level possible. Play for a club that I'm loved at, not just one of.
But I feel like with all my moves, I've not just gone to the club for whatever, or money, whatever. It's been the right step for me. And I've achieved something every year. Every year I've just got better and better. You want to win the Premier League one day? that's the aim that's the aim I want to win the World Cup also I want to win trophies that's like wow and being from where I'm from Northampton not many people can achieve them things or be like yeah he's been at the World Cup he's won the World Cup and even then like my mum still lives in the same house really?
yeah she doesn't want to move she likes being there and People will one day be like, yeah, Ivan's mum lives there. I'd rather do that now, but it'd be more of achievement. And I've won something like that. And be like, yeah, Ivan's mum's there. Ivan comes there all the time. I think that's kind of, kind of how we are, how I am. And you can see like my mum, she doesn't want to move into some big house. She feels safe and comfy at the house where she's at.
And that shows that I have no choice put to be grounded. And you've got three kids as well. Yeah, three little boys. Do you think about them? Do you think about the legacy you want to leave that they're going to grow up and learn about? Does that cross your mind a lot? Yeah, yeah, it does. I want to leave a legacy that they don't have no pressure on their shoulders to walk into. I just wanted to, whether there is a football or whatever industry they look to go into, which obviously I would want to say it's football, but whatever they do, I want them to be successful and be strong like my children.
I feel like I do want them to have the same upbringing I had. Like I wouldn't put them to that private school and all these things because I don't want to just give them everything. I want them to have to work for certain things. What advice would you give them about how to navigate? Say they do go into football, all three of them. And they come to you one day, they say, Dad, listen, just got a call from the biggest club in the world, Manchester United.
And I'm going to accept it and go to Manchester United, play under Eric. I need some advice, Dad. I'm on my way tomorrow. What advice can you give me, Dad? I have the mentality as you're the best player on the pitch. You might not be. But having that mentality will help you play better and just have the hunger. If you haven't got the hunger or the drive, you'll step behind already. I'd say like, also, attitude is key. That'll get you a long way.
Not just in football or work, in life. You know, when you did this tweet, the famous tweet, I'll speak soon with no thought. I understand that. It came from a place of anger, a bit defensive, whatever. Mood settles, your mum texts you. You're like, okay, maybe this is not going to help the situation. There was a lot you wanted to say, right? You wanted to talk specifically about the allegations. You've decided now, from what you're saying, that it's not worth it for you to go in and dispute things and say this, that, and the other is not true.
But was there anything that you do want to say? to like the football community or just to the world generally as a message when you tweeted that, like outside of like the stuff where we're like a bit bitter and hurt because of everything that's going on and people are attacking you or whatever. Is there anything else you wanted to say? Because I just want to give you a chance just to... Not really. Like you said, most of it come from anger and it's kind of like everybody's against me kind of thing.
But with that, it's kind of like I was more worried on people like thinking how I am. How I am as a person. Like what they read and what they hear rather than how I actually am. But the The people around me, friends, family, the only people I should be worried about, they know how I am. Why do I need to explain to Bob down the road how I actually am? I'm probably never gonna see him again. So it doesn't matter that. Why am I explaining that? And why am I going out there to give it like a back and forth?
Like, I don't need to do that. And it doesn't benefit me. It just benefits him in trying to get more reaction from me. So, Like you said, it definitely was out of an anger kind of moment. It's kind of like, all right, let me say this then. Let me say that, not knowing the knock on effect it could have. So it's not... I don't need to try and prove nobody wrong or prove nobody right. It's just... focus on myself, family and... do what I do best, which is playing well and scoring goals.
And speaking with your feet. Correct. I did want to talk to you about one last thing. You did a tweet as well about a DM someone sent you. Yeah. Someone had DM'd you calling you a black C word and you posted the tweet. Subsequently, you stopped taking the knee during the start of Premier League games and such. Racism in football. Do you still receive racial abuse still today? Yeah. You do? If I was supposed to post everything I've received that's been racist, I'd have easily around 100 messages.
Easily just reel off there, there, there. Has that increased since the sanctions were made against you from the commission? No. No, because I feel like most of it's just betting rubbish that I get, like people are saying. But I feel like most of it's from playing a game and someone's bet on you or you haven't scored and then they come for you for these kind of things or the fantasy league, football league. You don't get enough points and they'll come at you like this or you'll score to lose their bit.
Just things like this. When did you stop taking the knee? Because I feel like it's a token gesture. It's not really, it's lost its purpose. And you can see like before games, some people like run off with their knee, forgot about that. Like the purpose isn't there no more. I don't think that's doing nothing in the game to help stop these kinds of things from happening. More needs to be done for sure, for sure. 100%. All over the world, not just in the UK, but we obviously saw what happened to Viniscus Jr. as well in the La Liga.
And it does feel like if there was harsher action taken, then a lot of this stuff wouldn't be happening, even from the platforms and also from the police. I think, yeah, most, well, some of them are from abroad. And it's kind of like, if it's not in the UK, they can't do nothing about it. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, so what? You just keep sending from wherever. But yeah, you can't really do nothing. It's not as... Okay, so it's fine then. Basically, you're saying it's fine.
Yeah. It's like, what did you do? Yeah, I feel like... He's lost his purpose. Personally, anyway. I feel like it's kind of like puppets. The people at the top were kind of like, let's try this. Well, let's do this. Keep people quiet for a bit. Just do that and... We're trying. Let's not try. You're counting down the days now. Yeah, I literally am just like... Really? ...a kid at Christmas, yeah. I'll count down the days or two I can train and be around the boys because, like, being in football prison at the moment, when I'm around the boys, I think it won't get easier.
Well, it'll get a little bit easier, but not... The same was, like, you train a whole week hard at the end of the week. It's no, like, end goal or reward. You're not playing a match. And then is it January you can play? Yeah, January the 17th. You can train again? I can play matches. Oh, you can play matches? Yes, 17th for September. I can train, so. Oh, September you can train and then? September I can train, yeah. Okay, and then December. I can be in a club around the boys.
Okay, so not long? Yeah, not long, not long. Less than a month? Yeah, it feels like ages though. and then you can play in January. That's gonna be a very big game. A lot of people are gonna be watching that. Yeah. Do you feel pressure? No, I thrive off pressure when it's like, you sure that you can't do that? He's not gonna be able to do it. And that's what, like the pressure was, like we spoke about after the playoff final and we got a penalty.
After the game everyone was like, you must have been scared. Like if you missed, you probably could have like, you probably could have lost massive. I was thinking no, I couldn't wait. Like I knew for a fact I was scoring that penalty, 100%. Cause it was the pressure and like the reward after it, gives you a bigger chance to jump into Premier League. and more money for family so. You trying to prove people right or trying to prove people wrong? What matters more to you?
Proving people wrong so I can have a little digger. Yeah, I like that. I like when I see certain tweets. And then when I do something, I come back to it and just like, have a little comment and dig at the person. And it's just lots of words. You're right. You win. You've been taking names throughout this process? Just like, this pundit said this, this person. I mean, there's loads of pundits that say loads of things. It's all opinions, but... When I come back to school enough, I'm sure they'll go back into the bus and backpedal on what they say.
We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're going to leave it for. So they wrote a question for you here in this diary. The question been left for you is, when have you most had to face your fears? Probably the ban. Because I think loads of things going through your head. It's like, like I said, from having football at such a young age, not knowing if there's loads of things that go through your head.
Like what? How you're going to cope with things. At the time, I was kind of like, not wary. I feel like I'm a confident person, but going out in certain places, the topic is going to be about the whole scandal that's going on. people are going to talk about it. But with me, it's like, do they want to talk about it? They're thinking, do I want to talk about it? Not scared in a way, but it's kind of like, it's an awkward kind of meeting kind of thing.
It's like elephant in the room. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then it comes to the point where it's like, they'll say something like, oh, I bet you can't do that. And it's kind of like, oh, that kind of thing but I'm like yeah what's done is done like you can talk about it don't feel like then they talk about it then I mean it's cleared so I feel like not knowing what people are thinking about you not people not knowing what people want to kind of talk to you not knowing if you're going to be fit when you come back or not knowing what you're going to do whilst you're off like loads of things go into your head and it's like it hasn't crossed your mind you might like lose your form or something That actually did.
Yeah, it did at the time. But I know I can get myself in goal scoring positions. So I don't feel like that would be such a big issue. But it does cross your mind. What if I don't score within the first five games, six games? You're going to think the world's ending kind of thing. But yeah, I think that was the fear of these kind of things, not knowing what's next kind of thing. And as the days have passed, it's got easier, right? It's got easier in ways, but it's got harder in like... Oh, okay.
Easier as in like, soon I'm going to be around the boys and that's kind of like, my head's fine now. I'm at the club doing what I do best and enjoy. But then it's kind of like, at the end of the week, I can't play games. Whilst the game was kind of like... It's like torture watching it. Yeah, it's torture. I hate watching games when I should be on the pitch. Do you think you deserve the punishment you got? Um, I mean, if that's what the rules are, then so be it.
That's the punishment I should have got. But looking on the other cases and the fact that they were lower leagues, it's kind of like, why did he get that and I got this? Is it because he's there and I'm here? But now I feel like If this is a punishment for doing what I've done, then make that, make sure the next person gets that. Make sure the next person gets that. Like make it all- Fair. Fair and correct. First I don't think it was fair, but it is what it is.
I can't see, I can't change nothing now. I can't, there's no point in me focuses on if it's fair or not, because that doesn't help no situation. Yeah. I think it's possible to take responsibility for your actions. 100%. I did that. But also to think that it was unfair because they, I think, maybe rightly so, they are making an example of you because those lower league players, it would never send a message, would it? Correct. So with the big wages and the big status and the popularity and all the upsides comes this other thing, which is like bigger sanctions, bigger publicity, bigger...
It's more of a talking point and more of a story. And I'll tell you what, you go out there and you start bagging goals. Ain't nobody going to be talking about anything else. That's another reason I want to be scoring goals. To put things right and let people talk about my goal scoring rather than rubbish past goals. I think you're going to. I think you're going to go back to Brentford and I think you're going to fucking tear it up because I sense a real deep drive in you that I've not seen in many people.
A real sense of like self-belief and conviction, even what you said about the penalties there. Like I played at Soccer Aid and they came over to me and asked me if I wanted a penalty. And I went to the back of the group. I was swerved out so hard. This year, we played this year, I got injured before the game at Old Trafford, but by playing in training and we had to do a penalty shootout. Potch was the manager and I just said to myself, Steve, step forward and take one.
And this was to decide who got which dressing room. I took one, I scored it and then the next day I pulled my hamstring and got a grade three tear. But I was proud of myself for stepping up and doing it. Yeah. That's amazing. I think if you have in your head, I'm going to do this. You have a better chance of thinking, what is this? There's no point thinking that. Like even with, yeah, back yourself 100%. Like even with strikers I've played with, especially strikers I play with now.
Because he's, I'll say his name, Brian. Because he knows he's like my little brother. I said to him, like, when he missed a chance, he gets so angry with himself. I said, bro, it's fine. You're not a robot. You can miss chances. When the next chance comes, you'll score. And he's got a lot better at that and he's been scoring. So I think just don't dwell on things. You've got a big chance coming up January. Yes. And I hope you score. I will. I know I will.
I know I do well. And like you said, this is just another hurdle in my bumpy road, but it's all good. It could be worse. Ivan, thank you. Thank you for the time. Thank you for the inspiration you've given me. I feel like I understand you. I feel like I understand you and listen, we all make mistakes in life. I think it's really important. We've all made mistakes. I make so many mistakes. I think yours are obviously more publicly broadcast because of who you are and you're at the top of the game.
§04Transcript — part 4
You're the peak of your powers. But I think it's important, as you said, that you take responsibility for it. You move on and you let the football do the talking. And I think that's exactly what you have done. And that's what I'm really excited to see from you going forward, as I said, because you're special. You've got a very special talent. You've got a very special mentality and a very special talent to match it. And we can't let that go to waste.
So we need to... It won't go to waste for sure. But the people around me, they won't allow it to go to waste, so... Good. Thank you so much for your time, bro. It means a lot to me that you came here and spoke to me and I'm a big fan and I really do hope you end up at Manchester United one day. No, thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. It's been good to talk through things and maybe this can help the next person if they were to think twice on doing certain things or maybe to open up about certain things.
So yeah, it's probably easy. It's good. Thanks for having me, like I said.