Growing A 10+ Million Youtube Following At The Age of 22: Joe Sugg

00:00I start to feel anxious, like I’m being followed by a guy. My mind is panicking. I actually can't concentrate on driving because I know this person is just trying to follow us.

00:15Strictly finalist, West End star, and an internet sensation, Joe Sugg. You started at 19 years old. By 22, you had about 6 million subscribers.

00:30Yeah, it's nuts. It was so uncertain about where that was going to go. The rise, but also the fall, can happen so quickly. That imposter syndrome that I already had got amplified by anxiety and self-doubt. The whole thing just didn't feel real.

00:45Dianne, you met her on Strictly?

00:48First real proper girlfriend, yeah. The further you go in that competition, the higher the pressure is and the stress gets. We saw the best and the worst of each other. I always thought it would be a very private thing, but it’s actually ended up being the complete opposite.

01:00Hand on heart, do you think if you had never started YouTube, you'd be happier overall?

01:10Good question.

01:20So, without further ado, I am Steven Bartlett, and this is *The Diary of a CEO*. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

02:15Joe, tell me, what are the most important things that I need to know about you from your early years in order to understand the man you are today?

02:30I was quite a loud child. I was a loud, annoying child growing up. When we look back through family videos, it's quite embarrassing to watch, particularly me, because I was the sort of boy that would be like, "Mommy, watch this! Watch this!" I’d repeat myself over and over again. We watch it back like, "Oh, shut up, you were an annoying child."

02:50But then, at some point, I flipped. I don’t know when that was, but at some point, I became a very timid, quite a shy child. Always very creative. Even from an early age, I was a good drawer. I used to illustrate and draw a lot of pictures at school, which definitely came from being passed down from my parents. Both Mom and Dad are very creative in their own sense.

03:15I went to a very, very small primary school in rural Wiltshire. I think there were 52 pupils in our whole school. Going from there to secondary school was a big change for me because that was going from 52 people in the whole school to over a thousand. So that was a big—which probably could have been a reason why I went from being quite a loud, annoying child to being a lot more sort of, "Oh, I'm out of my depth here. I'm now a small fish in a big pond."

03:45I read in the book, in chapter one of *Grow*, that you were quite self-deprecating at that point.

03:52In secondary school, yeah. Primary school, I feel like I was a lot more confident. Everyone knew everyone very well, and I just felt a lot more popular then. And then, yeah, moving to secondary school, it was a very different place. And that's when I first sort of encountered teasing and bullying and stuff.

04:15I wasn't necessarily "bullied," but it was more like if there was ever teasing going on or things they were trying to dig at, I very quickly sort of realized if I'm already poking fun at myself, they will get bored of trying to poke fun at me. So there’s less chance of that happening.

04:35At that age in secondary school, would you consider yourself to be a confident child?

04:41No. You know what? Silently confident. In my head, I've always been the sort of person where I know what I'm capable of. I know that I can do certain things to a good standard, and I know that I can be a good student and all this kind of stuff. But on the outside, not as confident at all. With work and stuff, I was very confident. I was confident that I'd be able to get the grades and do well in school and things like that, but it was more the social side of it I found a lot more difficult.

05:30If I'd asked you at that age what you wanted to be when you grew up, say like 16-ish, what would you tell me?

05:3816? I wanted to work in media, but I wanted to go more down the route of animation. My goal as a kid, initially, first of all, it was an archaeologist. I wanted to be Indiana Jones. And then, secondary school, I wanted to work for Aardman. I wanted to be an animator, model builder, or just... I've got a lot of patience. If you know what animation's like, or how long it took to make *Chicken Run* or *Wallace and Gromit*, then those films take a long time to make. So I felt like I'd be good to do that and I wanted to work for Aardman.

06:15Your grades at A-level were really good, which was surprising because then most people with those kind of grades would then go off to university. You chose not to.

06:28No. So, we did work experience when you turn 16. I decided to go roof thatching with my uncle. My uncle is a roof thatcher, which is a very old traditional craft that they don't really teach anymore. It's very like... there's no classes you can go and take. You can't study for it. You've got to actually go on the job and work on the job, and you learn when the master thatcher thinks you're ready. You then go from being an apprentice to a master thatcher.

07:00My school, I remember my school advised that I didn't do it, but I went and did it anyway. And then I absolutely loved it. It was outside. It was tough. I wasn't really doing much; I was lifting a lot of straw and moving things and sweeping up, but I absolutely loved it. There's something about when we finished a roof; we'd look at what we'd done, and it’s just that feeling. I wanted to bottle that up and be like, "That's what I want for the rest of my life."

07:30I decided that I wanted to be a roof thatcher for the rest of my life. I'm the sort of person... I'm very bad at making my mind up on things. There's a lot going on. I was like, "What if it doesn't work out later on down the line?" I need to have A-levels, so if this doesn't go to plan or after a while I don't like it, I can at least then try out university and go back to trying to work for something in the media or Aardman or something. I always liked the idea of having safety nets underneath me.

08:25That's kind of in a way what roof thatching became. I started doing YouTube as a hobby off the back of the thatching. I did it on my spare time, and that started to take off and become a full-time career. But I was, in a way, safe going into that because I was like, "If it all doesn't pan out"—because this is going back to when YouTube wasn't really a career as well—so it was so uncertain about where that was going to go. But I always felt very secure in the fact that I knew that if it didn't pan out, I'd try it for a year, and if it doesn't work, I can go back to a job that I genuinely really, really love.

09:05The two ideas that are almost in collision there were this idea that you are very self-confident in your abilities and that you've always needed a plan B. One of them sounds a bit like self-doubt. Are you someone that has self-doubt at the same time?

09:30I'm the sort of person where I think of the best-case scenario. I've got a very vivid imagination, so with everything that I go into, I always think of the best possible outcome, which then gives me that sort of self-confidence. But then I also have Mr. Self-Doubt on the other side who finds the worst-case scenario. And then they have a battle in my head of how I should think. And I think that's where the indecision comes from with a lot of stuff. I live with it. I'm glad I've kind of got it because I wouldn't want to always have the self-doubt there, and I also wouldn't ever always want to have the self-confidence there. I think that would make me a completely different person, and maybe a person that I don't like either.

10:25Procrastination is the result of us trying to avoid a task or thing that we have psychological discomfort associated with. I think self-doubt is one of the things that leads us to have that psychological discomfort where we just kind of delay it and wait for that perfect time or go do the dishes.

11:05I have that all the time. I always say it's because I'm creative. It's like I get scared—scared's not the right word—but I put it off. Like if I know I've got something I want to do that is creative and requires a lot of sitting around thinking beforehand and then putting pen to paper, I delay it. And I think it's a thing of like, what if I start doing it and instantly I don't like it? In your mind, you have this version of it all just going to come flowing out of the pen, and it doesn't. Very often, it doesn't all just completely flow. And I think that kind of puts a block in. I'm always like, "If I'm going to do it, I need to make sure everything's prepared beforehand."

12:00A lot of the time as well, we say to ourselves that the reason I'm not starting it is because I'm a perfectionist. Everyone loves that because it's a nice way of framing yourself as having really, really high standards. When really, a lot of the time, it's probably self-doubt and that psychological discomfort.

12:30Yeah, I think it's kind of like that part of my brain that's like seeing the best possible outcome. Like, let's say for example I'm doing a painting. In my head, I'll have that thing of like, almost going ahead. I see it finished, and I'm like, "This is going to be amazing. I'm going to post it online, and people are going to love it." But then I start, and it doesn't quite go, and I'm like, "Oh, actually this is... in my mind, I've gone through this process of doing it over and over again and getting it to how I want it to go," and then I start doing it, and it's not going how I imagined it. And that sort of scares me a bit. And that's why I think I put things off more from that kind of side.

13:15Unfinished paintings?

13:17A lot of them. Too many of them.

13:22What have you learned about—is there anything that you've learned or anything that's helped you get past that initial hesitation of procrastination? Because reading through your story and even speaking to you today, I was like, "God, this guy's got so many ideas."

13:40That is something that I've struggled with, because especially nowadays where like... starting businesses and stuff. I feel like very rarely do you see people that are doing so many different things. And it is that thing of like, I'm a plate spinner. I love spinning plates of different things and trying to keep up with these spinning plates.

14:05I take time to sort of sit back and look at these things and think, "When are you going to sit on one thing and actually just do that thing and devote your..." because you see like throughout history of artists and people who have devoted their whole life to sculpting. And I sort of tell myself I'm not going to achieve anything sort of near that if I don't dedicate my whole life to one thing. But for me, I just find it so difficult because I'm like, I've got a limited time, and I want to dip my toe into everything.

14:40With the YouTube sort of career that I've had over the last 10 years, that is something that I did sort of double down on and really focus all my energy on at one point. But then it became a point of branching it out and doing different things just as a form of stability as well because we didn't know how long it was going to last for. And I think I just got a bit carried away with the branching out.

15:10I see like that YouTube thing of like catching a wave. I went out to sea and caught a wave, and caught that wave in. And it was incredible. It was a record-breaking wave. And now I feel like I'm sort of back out on my board again, and I'm paddling around. I've caught a few little waves, but they've not been like another ripper of a wave like the YouTube one was yet. But I know that there's more big waves out there.

15:58Why do you need a next big wave?

16:02Good point. I should just stay on the beach. I think that's actually what my therapist—I have a therapist I speak to—and I use that analogy with her, and she said the exact same thing. "Why do you need to catch the next big wave? Why not stay on the beach? You don't need to go out and constantly catch big waves."

16:20If you're happy spinning multiple plates and trying lots of things, it seems like there's this other narrative which is saying, "No, no, no, forget what you love doing, focus, because success is the most important thing." And when I say success, I mean accomplishment. Because real success probably is actually being happy.

16:55It's like a punishment of yourself. Like I feel like I—in a way, I... yeah, it's kind of like a form of like, "Joe, you know you love doing this, and this makes you genuinely happy. So why don't you just do it?" And if you love it that much and you stick at it and do it, then good things may come from it, but it's not going to happen straight away. And it's like I almost get into a thing of like, I like to sort of... the things that I know I love doing, I put aside, and I focus on the things that maybe I don't love as much or not as passionate about as much, but I'll sort of almost put that before the little things that make me really happy. It's bizarre.

17:45Why?

17:48I've no idea. I've no idea. I've tried to think about it a lot, and it's weird.

17:55Is it because although you might not love them as much, you might be able to be successful in the eyes of the world in them?

18:03I think I... it's because I've got that thing in me that's looking for instant success and stuff. Which is weird. And maybe that's because of like before on YouTube and stuff, there was a time where everything we sort of would go into almost became an instant success in a way. I think it's because we like back then, I felt like it was so much bigger. Anything you sort of went into, you know, it did end up sort of getting attention and doing really well.

18:45We signed some YouTubers back in those days, and still to this day, I think it ruined their lives. Because I watched an 18-year-old, 19-year-old kid who had started a YouTube channel, got to 200,000, 300,000 subscribers when that was the only shop in town for video. I watched those kids turn down 15 grand to show up to a movie premiere or to just show face. When that wave comes into shore and hits the beach and it's over, those kids are in a psychological trap almost with their own personal expectations of the world.

19:45100%. And I think that's, you know, a big part of why myself and Caspar, who's also a YouTuber, we started a management company because in the future, there's going to be kids—and we already seen it then—like young kids that were shooting to fame overnight. But even nowadays with other social medias, it happens even quicker. Like the rise, but also the fall can happen so quickly. For me and Caspar, we were like, we want to make a management company, and a big role of what we have in that is being in a way kind of like mentors when needed. I kind of use it as like, you know in like *The Hunger Games*, that guy who's like sat on the train who sort of takes her through it?

20:55Like a mentor.

20:58A very different version of it, yeah. Kind of like a mentor kind of role. And that for me is like one of the best things that I do at the moment is having that sort of one-on-one with our own clients and sort of, if they've got any sort of issues, being able to actually offer advice and see it make a change.

21:15I'm Joe at 19, and you're Joe at 30. What do you say to me? I'm about to upload that first video.

21:25I would say if you want it to get to that level, you can do it if you put in the consistency and you're making stuff that is going to get seen. But just be prepared for there’s other sides of it that aren't all bells and whistles. There's going to be obstacles, there's going to be things that you're going to need advice on.

21:50What are the things that go wrong?

21:54Press. Negative press. You're going to get haters, you're going to get trolls. The bigger your audience size, the more issues it brings in terms of the more eyes that are on you, the more people that will watch your stuff that might not like what you do. And then they've got a thing out against you. There’s a lot.

22:15What's the mental cost?

22:18I would say that if you're me, it's still worth it. Don't ever regret doing it. The positives that you've gained out of it, or you will gain out of it in everything, outweighs the negative. And don't get bogged down by the negatives because you know there's more positives than negatives. The negatives don't matter as much as you think they're going to matter at the time. At the time when you experience these negatives and these things that, you know, don't go your way or that's going to happen, but don't dwell on it. Don't let it consume you because there's positives beyond that, and you'll look back and you won't regret it.

23:05What is the worst thing that's going to happen to me over the next 10 years?

23:18Overthinking. Overthinking and worrying about what other people, how they perceive you.

23:30What cost is that going to have?

23:32A few sleepless nights, a lot of anxiety, self-doubt.

23:42I'm guessing at 19 years old, Joe didn't know what anxiety was. What is it?

23:48It's a feeling of claustrophobia. Feeling a bit trapped.

23:55Do you remember days through that period? You talked a little bit in the book about I think 2015 or so, a couple of years in. By 22, you had about 6 million subscribers. That's nuts. It happened really quick.

24:18I was very fortunate that my sister, Zoe, and Alfie, her partner, they really encouraged me to do it. Before YouTube, we used to buy blank cassette tapes and make our own radio shows or, I guess, podcasts back in the day as kids. We were always taking our parents' camcorder and recording shows. Zoe was very much the leader in that; she was very much sort of the director, and I was always the little brother that would just go along with it.

25:00So when YouTube came around, she started to get a bit of success from it, and she was like, "You should give this a go because it's the kind of stuff that we were doing as kids." But, you know, there's an audience that can watch you from around the world. So yeah, I gave it a go, and it just sort of snowballed. And it snowballed really quickly.

25:35I remember there was a time where I was still thatching on a roof five days of the week, and then I had an email come through asking if I'd go fly out to Los Angeles to interview Simon Cowell. And yeah, flew out there. First time ever experiencing a business class flight. I still had straw in my shoes from being on the roof. And like hadn't showered properly—just like kind of grotty thatcher—getting on this plane. A chauffeur-driven car pulled up to our house and took me off to the Heathrow airport. And I went through—there's like a little secret bit where they put these barriers down and you have your own like private security kind of thing.

26:15I hadn't even got to Los Angeles yet. First time ever flying on my own, solo. That whole experience was just like—the whole thing just didn't feel real. It felt like I was living like a double life in a way. Like yesterday I was on a roof thatching, and now I'm sat in Simon Cowell's fancy house talking to him about Skype.

26:47Those experiences, especially when they're really quick, they go from zero to a hundred. People talk to me about imposter syndrome.

27:03Definitely. Yeah, imposter syndrome, there's definitely a lot of that going on. And that must result in overthinking and doubt. That's another thing actually that I would say to younger Joe is that you're going to get this thing called imposter syndrome. You'll learn about it later, but yeah, it'll be there.

27:26And I've, yeah, I've had that even now to this day. Even now with this podcast. Like I listen to this podcast all the time. And even on the way here, I was a bit nervous because I was like, you get these incredible CEOs on and these people that are so good at talking, and I struggle to get a sentence together most of the time. And I feel like there's people on there that have done such amazing things, and even for me, it still gives me that little bit of imposter syndrome of like there should be other people, a lot more people that should be sat in this chair rather than me.

28:35I think a good example for me is doing Strictly or even, actually probably even more so, is *Waitress* in the West End. So I did a stint on the West End in *Waitress*, and this was coming off the back of doing Strictly. So my confidence actually completely changed me in a sense that it gave me such a big boost of confidence which I didn't have for a long time. So riding on that confidence, I agreed to do an audition for Ogie in *Waitress* in the West End.

29:10I remember I kept asking my team being like, "Have they asked me because of like Strictly? Will they be honest and like if I'm not good enough, will they just tell me?" I don't want them to sort of put me in it if I'm actually not good or I'm not to standard that they'd take someone on. I remember even after doing the audition and they said they really loved it and things like that, I still in my mind I was still like, "But did you though? Are you sure?"

29:40And especially like the backlash that I kind of got from that was quite—I mean, it's nothing that sort of worried me too much, but there was a lot of like people that were messaging me being like, "You don't deserve this. There's people that have trained their entire lives in musical theatre and they didn't get that opportunity because people like you coming in taking those roles." And so I started to have like a massive—and that kind of like that imposter syndrome that I already had got amplified. And I was like, "Maybe I shouldn't do it."

30:50Was there a moment where you go, that was where I really started to see the symptoms of getting burnt out by doing this?

30:58I think around 2016, 17, I think it might be. I remember it clearly because it was just a time where there was just a lot going on. I think YouTube was like massive. At the time, I mean I run, at the time I had three YouTube channels that I was trying to all keep up at the same time. And this was actually before I had any—I was doing it all solo as well. So I'd think of the ideas, I'd shoot them all, edit them, obviously distribute it, and I guess in a way market it by promoting it and putting it out there.

31:38I also had a book coming out which I was working on. We also—me and Caspar did a feature with BBC Studios like a straight-to-DVD kind of like film of us sort of traveling around in a campervan. So there's a lot of things going on. And it got to a point where I was like, my life as a roof thatcher before all this, there was no feeling like this how I'm feeling now. It was just—I had such a solid structure. Up at this time, go to work until this time, go back, unload the straw, load up the van again, go and see my Nan, give her the paper, go home, go to the gym, and then that was it.

32:30Was that a happier life?

32:33There's been a lot of times throughout my life where I've looked back and thought that was... because that structure, it does make you feel like I was living a more... yeah.

32:45Hand on heart, do you think if you had never started YouTube, you'd be happier overall?

32:55I think I'm more happy the route I've gone down. As much as, you know, I had my struggles online and stuff, actually the online has also been such a big help for me, especially like in terms of like YouTube and the way that I've worked with them personally and had support from them has been incredible. And I've had a good team around me that have given me the support and the friendships and the family that I've had around me.

33:30Although I went through a time where I did struggle a lot and I had that burnout and I had that sort of anxiety and worry and self-doubt and stuff, I've had a really good set of people around me that have helped me sort of get past that. Even with the roof thatching, you know, I look back on it now because I'm so far down a different path. But if I went back to thatching, I'm sure there were times where I'd be up on the roof when it's like sideways rain, wind, freezing cold thinking like, "What am I doing up here?" So I think it's all sort of comparative to where you are at certain points in your life.

34:04Did your love for YouTube shift, though? You start posting less frequently on your main channel. There seems to have been this point where multiple YouTubers appear to have kind of vanished a little bit. What is going on?

34:35I think—I mean, I can't speak for everyone—but for myself personally, I think it's partly because my audience have all grown up. They're all in their sort of, I presume, a lot of the ones that started watching me when they were 14, 15, they're all now in their 20s. They've got their own stuff going on. And the stuff that I knew how to make back then is not what they want to consume now as content.

35:08I have a guess as well. I think that the algorithm might have changed a little bit. And I think that a few things happen when that happens. As a creator, you get psychologically demotivated when you're doing the same work and you're getting basically a vote from your audience to say, which sounds like, "We don't like it anymore."

35:40I agree with that to a degree. But I also think you’ve got the people that take it to the extreme sometimes. I never want to solely blame an algorithm. Maybe this might go back to me being the sort of self-doubting kind of imposter syndrome type vibe again of thinking like, "It's not just because of this mechanical thing that goes on in the background, it's also because I need to switch things up and change who I am online or what I'm doing online." I need to shift what I'm doing with the times, and I think that's harder than I thought.

36:45Was there a point where you saw numbers decline?

36:58Yeah, right before I said yes to doing Strictly. I thought it'll be fine, they'll get used to it and try with different content and things. I started to post different stuff, and it just wasn't doing, performing as well as it used to. And I'd always kind of like prepared myself for it. My dad actually gave me a good piece of advice looking back on it, of being like, "This what you're doing now is great, but you know in the future it's only going to get more and more people trying to do what you do. And there's going to be people—there's always people out there that have new talents."

38:05How do you define yourself now?

38:15It's one of the hardest things for me to answer. If I'm ever asked to sort of sum myself up what I do, I just—I think like my Instagram bio is like "I am creative" or something like that. Because I just—I don't... I find it so hard to sort of pigeonhole myself as "this is what I do and this is what I am."

38:45You wrote a book, *Grow*, about being outside and in nature. It seems like a fairly unobvious topic for someone like yourself to write about. Why did you decide to write about the importance of going outside?

40:04During the lockdown, we were all sort of looking for things to keep us busy. I had like a balcony that ran off from my living area, and I got into gardening in that small little balcony. Getting really into it and sort of like caring for a plant and just trying to make a plant grow or putting time and effort into something else, and sort of not being in the whirlwind that was going on online or on our phones at that time.

40:42Disconnecting myself from that and sort of reconnecting myself with something as simple as nature made me feel so good. It took away all kind of like anxieties. I just felt very calm. And it took me back to my childhood in a sense of how I grew up. I was very lucky to grow up in a little cottage-type place. So getting all that thoughts—it's part memoir, I talk a lot about growing up in the countryside—but also a part practical guide of hopefully giving some tips for other people in terms of how they can find their own balance that suits them in terms of the real world and social media world.

41:48It's quite a personal pivot, isn't it? From being a YouTuber glued to a screen to standing here holding these pots with these plants in them.

41:58Yeah, it is very different. But what I've realized is separating those two things out is really beneficial for me. But it's in no way sort of saying that social media is bad. It's more kind of like finding a balance that's right for you that is going to help you feel better about yourself mentally.

42:25When you were going through your hard times with social media, were you telling anybody about it? Were you speaking to Zoe, your family?

43:18Yeah, more so my sister because my sister has suffered with it a lot throughout her career. So I was very lucky that I could speak to her about it. And then obviously got a therapist as well that was recommended to me through my sister.

43:42She was very good about it to be fair because she's been through a lot of that stuff. She sort of straight away made me feel better in knowing that at least to sort of acknowledging what it is and bringing some sort of understanding to it. But it definitely, definitely helped having someone so close to me like my sister being able to sort of help with that.

44:05And you spoke to a therapist. What has therapy done for you practically?

45:15It's made me realize that I am a people pleaser. I'm a people pleaser. So I often feel like I can't be my unapologetic self in a situation without risking causing offense to someone. I'm like terrified of upsetting someone or saying the wrong thing. I'm learning through therapy how to sort of manage that and to acknowledge it first and foremost.

46:02Has your therapist been able to offer you any advice about overthinking at all?

46:08Yes. More so in like the sort of anxiety side of things. Decatastrophizing the catastrophe. Using time to separate. So like if I'm feeling anxious, the way you think about time helps. For example, I was at Chelsea Flower Show recently with my mom. And I was engaging in conversation with someone else and my mind was thinking like there's so much going on around me and I started to feel anxious. I just needed to get out of there.

46:50I started to think of all these different scenarios of being like, I can't just be sick here because I'm in someone's garden. I can't just like run away and leave my conversation because I'm so worried about what they would think of me. But if you—what I've learned is that if you take that and think, "This conversation is max going to last five minutes." That helps. And know that after those five minutes, you can walk over there and you can be on your own. When you're thinking about things further in the future, it actually starts to make me feel more calm.

48:02Dianne, you met her on Strictly? First real proper girlfriend, yeah. At what age?

48:1826, 27. Yeah. I used to be quite like nervous about sort of getting a girlfriend publicly because I had this sort of large young female demographic. I've seen through friends that have got girlfriends and when they introduce their girlfriends to their audience, it’s a bit kind of like a... I always thought it would be a very private thing. In my head the whole time I was like, it'll be very private. And it's actually ended up being the complete opposite. It's like you can now watch the moment we met, which is kind of unusual.

49:45It does seem like that was the perfect way for you to get past a lot of that sort of talking yourself out of it because you were forced together.

50:08100%. And you know what? In that environment, especially for me, is like we saw the best and the worst of each other over that sort of 16-week period. There have been times where we'd go into training and like things weren't going to plan, we thought we were going home. The further you go in that competition, the higher the pressure is and the stress gets. So we saw the best and the worst of each other within those 16 weeks.

50:38And afterwards, I was kind of like, when we even sort of like had time to really kind of address things post... and be like, "I actually kind of want to spend more time with you." Because I felt like I'd seen the best and the worst, and I can, you know, I'm happy with that.

51:10When did you decide that your dance partner was not just a dance partner and was a girlfriend?

51:17It was actually before the tour. It was after the show finished. A few days after, we obviously missed each other because we hadn't seen each other. We had a conversation, obviously, in person, and decided to see each other more often. And we actually then went away to a place in the New Forest.

52:03I remember we were getting followed. There was a lot of like sort of attention on us at the time. And I was like, "That guy who's parked there... he's a paparazzi." I was lent an Aston Martin that morning. So I went down and parked it, and he must have seen me park so he knew what car to follow. Later on that day, I was driving along and I looked in the rearview mirror and I was like, "I think we're being followed."

52:55It put me on so much edge. I was like driving along thinking like, "I actually can't concentrate on driving because I know this person is just trying to follow us." So I turned off from where I was trying to go to. I was like, "Right, Dianne, you know how to work Bluetooth? Put on the James Bond theme song." And we had that moment of just like trying to sort of avoid this guy. And we did manage to do it, obviously very safely.

53:42Did the pictures come out in the paper?

53:44No. No. Nothing, luckily.

54:05You live together, right? How’s it going?

54:08Yeah, it’s going good. Going really well. It’s really nice because we are both very... she’s also one of the professional dancers. A lot of our time is separate. And we had one year, obviously 2019 was a year where we were like together and... but we had our own stuff that we're working on. But then when we come together, it’s so nice. Distance makes the heart grow fonder. I genuinely kind of I do believe in that. Although we are away from each other a fair bit because of our work commitments and stuff, it works really, really well.

55:12We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the previous guest asks a question for the next guest. "Do you remember a moment where you realized that you loved your job? When was it and why? And was there a moment when you realized you hated your job? When was it and why?"

55:40The moment that I remember that I loved my job... there’s a lot of little moments that stick out, but I think this was going back to like the old YouTube gang. So like me, my sister, Alfie, Marcus Butler, Jim, Tanya... we got invited to Harry Potter World. And I'll admit I'm not the biggest Harry Potter fan, but just being around that group, that first sort of big group out somewhere. Everyone was going through the same situation, which I really appreciated. That memory’s always stuck in my head. There’s a vlog of it, we all vlogged it, so we can go back and watch it in the future and stuff.

56:52What about the second part of that question?

56:55A moment where I hated my job. I guess it was the time where I had that burnout feeling and I had so much going on and I just thought, "You know what? I actually don't really know if I want to do this anymore." I remember telling my manager at the time, Alex, that I just don't know if I want to do this, there's too much going on, I actually can't really handle it.

57:25I was thinking about my old job and how much sort of simpler that was and thinking like, "I'm struggling with it." And I guess in that moment would feel like the time that I hated it. But it didn't last very long because my manager Alex, she sent me a care package. She went out above and beyond and sent me this care package of like a book and, weirdly, it was a Harry Potter book. Which as we know, not the biggest fan, but at the time it was exactly like I said, it was exactly what I needed. So, right before she saved the day, it was, yeah, probably about that time I think.

58:04Joe, thank you so much. Thank you for your time, thank you for writing a really important book. I love stuff that is simplifying. It makes it much more accessible. And I think that is why I love this particular book so much. But I also really appreciate your honesty. Thank you for your time.

58:56Thank you very much. Pleasure. Thanks for having me.

58:59And I can't wait to see what happens next.

59:02Same. [Music Outro plays through to 00:59:43]