Grace Beverley: How To Build A Multi-Million Pound Empire At 24

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One of the reasons I stepped back from social media was because I realized if something can manifest so physically that you're having a seizure, then you probably need to take this more seriously. And that was tough. And that, for me, is my happiness.

Grace Beverly, CEO and founder of two multi-million dollar companies. One's a fashion empire that’s focused on sustainability, and one's a fitness empire comprising a mobile app, a supplements business, and gym equipment. She did all of that while studying and graduating from Oxford University, while growing her online channels to millions and millions of followers, while writing a book, and while dealing with all of the things that every other Gen Z person has to deal with at the age of 23.

On the surface, it's easy to understand while looking in, someone might love to have Grace's life. But as you start to peel back the layers, as we do in this conversation, you begin to understand her obsessive attention to detail, the weight of her workload, and the personal cost of her accomplishments. You see the impact that those things have had on all parts of her life. And it makes you reconsider.

Despite all of this, she's persisted. She stayed true to her values. She's doubled down on the things she loves the most, and she's cut out some of the things that no longer serve her. She's learned. She's learned lessons that most of us would take a lifetime to learn. And she's 23. It blows my mind. Without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett and this is The Diary Of A CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

Grace, I started my business at 18 years old as well. You faced a different set of challenges. Not only have you started your business at an incredibly young age, but you face a set of challenges that are even alien to me in the sense that you are a woman in business. You are taking on various industries that don't want to be taken on, and that really are sort of incumbent monopolies in the space of fast fashion and fitness.

My first question is: why did you choose business? And what gave you the confidence to pursue a career that's filled with so much uncertainty at such a young age?

I think people often assume that the first part of it always has to be a kind of, "I'm going to start this, I'm going to do this." I think that mine absolutely wasn't that at all. That’s what often makes me question the amount of things that have had to fall into place for this to happen. Of course, there's hard work in that, but there's also so many other things that have had to go right.

For me, as I said, when I was 18 and working doing an internship at IBM, that’s kind of when I started. I just started doing some—I essentially started monetizing something that should be monetized. It was content I was giving away for free, and then I was going to do lots more of that, and so I decided to monetize it via an ebook. Then the next year I did more of that, and then it started picking up momentum. I started doing different products.

I think that’s often not seen in the way that business is represented. It's kind of seen as like a "Eureka" moment; then you go and do it, then you put it into action, then you fail once or twice and then you get it. It was far more gradual than that. Probably over the past five years since that moment, and four years since the business, Shreddy, as it is now, was founded.

In that time, probably the first two years were incredibly gradual, very much a kind of residual extra income rather than this big goal. I think the confidence has gathered through that. A lot of the time, I haven't been confident enough to do that but have just done it anyway. When I did my second set of ebooks, which was in my first year at university, that was literally because my student loan didn't come through.

That was the only reason. It wasn't necessarily a confidence thing; it was more, "Okay, what are we going to do in this situation?" Then putting that together and being able to leverage a platform to be able to monetize that. From then onwards, obviously it's been very mindful, very strategic, and that's how it's happened. But I guess the answer is that the confidence hasn't always been there. It hasn't always been a kind of, "I'm going to take on this industry." Sure, starting Tala, that was.

But the rest of it, a lot of it has been gradual, a lot of it has been this more cumulative making one decision at a time. Which is what I try and show as well, so that people can know that it doesn't always need to be this one big decision and this one big business that's going to be the biggest business in the world. It can just be something that you're just doing in that moment.

The world has changed recently over the last 12 months because of the pandemic and a lot of people have lost their jobs. Freelance websites and entrepreneurship have now become more in focus as people are trying to find ways to give themselves a little bit more stability in their income. When I speak to my friends that are your age, 23, 24 next week, or who are younger, 18, 19, or even older, everybody seems to have a business idea.

I’m sure you’re bombarded with DMs like this. Everyone has a business idea. There seems to be this barrier between the idea and taking the first step, like making the Instagram page. Is the barrier between that confidence? In your view, what is it?

I think it's probably specific to the situation, the person, the circumstance. When I was at university, I think that there was something that came together to make me do that, but I was also at university in a place and in a time that I could take a risky decision in terms of how I spend my time. I wasn't doing a part-time job at the time that I could have put into that.

Part of it is circumstance. A lot of people don't necessarily have the backing to put behind it, or it might be the time they can put in. Lots of people are working three jobs just to make ends meet and therefore, you might have an idea but actually being able to sacrifice the time spent doing that isn't an option. But then I think a lot of the time as well, it can be confidence outside of that circumstance. It can be "Should I be doing this? Why should I be doing this?"

A lot of the ideas I've had—I'm sure you'll have the same—there will be ideas that you have kind of all the time and it's choosing the right ones and choosing to test it. I think I'm sure if I tested out my first Shreddy now, if I tested that out even more gradually, or if it hadn't worked or whatever, I don't know how tenacious I would have been in terms of actually making that happen. It's been like an accumulation of that confidence and actually testing things, realizing they work, and then replicating that.

We can't necessarily blanket apply it to everyone and be like it's because of this or because of that. Probably the biggest factors will be circumstance, confidence, and there are so many things that can stop you, but there are also so many things that can enable you to say, "Okay, well this is this, I'm going to make it happen or I'm going to take that leap or I'm going to at least do the background work or do a survey to see if my product would be liked," whatever it might be.

I think as well, people looking at you or myself that have achieved things in business will see this very polished product, right? They’ll think, "Well I’m so far from that, so I’m so far from being capable of what that person has achieved." But as you've described there, which I think is so powerful and important, for you it was taking one step up a very, very thousand-step staircase at a time. When we look at you now, step 934, we think, "Oh my god, you must be so proud of yourself."

Which is like, "Well, it’s been one step at a time so..." and I think you can be proud of the steps along the way, but I also think that I look back at some—not necessarily some products, but some branding, some content—and I look at it and I’m like, "What the fuck is that?" Like, that is awful. I would scroll right past that or I wouldn't... and of course, things have changed, people's taste has changed and all of that that kind of goes into branding and product and all of that.

But there are some things... I’ve sold everything from T-shirts to notebooks to whatever it would be. Everything that’s accumulated now is the good things that have then been replicated. It’s not everything gets replicated and then you see all of the end products. There have been some things that never ended up as an end product because they were so shit in the first place that they were never going to get that extra time on them.

You’re completely right; there is this kind of... and I think it’s also perpetuated by unknowingly often by people like ourselves. Like, I look at the stuff I share and I look at it and I’m like, "God, I’m so much more likely to share if it’s this or if this product worked out well." Subconsciously, because there was an end of that journey, we don’t necessarily say like, "Oh this was the thing that actually went really wrong," because it’s embarrassing. You don’t want to share that.

You don’t think to because you don’t think of the kind of pride in the journey that’s got to that point. And so it all does... you will just see the good things or you might see the bad things that are positioned in an inspirational way, but it’s still curated. It’s still what I guess is wanted to be seen.

To my other point about being a woman in business, that comes with a whole unique set of challenges. I’ve heard you talk about being underestimated, not taken seriously before. Speak to me about some of those challenges that I wouldn't even know about.

So I think first, I always also think it is important to preface this with the fact that yes, I’m a woman in business. I’m also white, able-bodied, I was privately educated, I went to Oxford—a huge list of things that need to be contextualized, which I’ve always thought is important. I won't face half the challenges that a Black woman would face in the same position.

I think the challenges I do face are often worked through, I guess, and that’s been a journey. There have been people who have wanted to work for the businesses who clearly won't accept the fact that I’m not the face of it, like I am acting CEO and I do do X, Y, and Z. There have also been the same with partnerships, the same with... I think people have a certain perception that's definitely warped, increased, and perpetuated by online presence and the fact that I don't just share my work.

I think that it does come down to these preconceptions. I know as well, since I’ve started realizing this, I have preconceptions as well. You’ll hear about a woman who’s high up and you’re like, "Oh god, they’re doing really well, like why don't I have that?" I often think like, "Oh well, apparently they’re really hard to work with" or they're like whatever. We all have these own kind of our own internalized sexist whatever it might be preconceptions in terms of these things as well.

I think that it often comes for women who are successful. You look at them and you either think one of two things: you either think "Wow amazing, must be superwoman" or you think "Wow amazing, but I've never seen a partner or children, like do you think they're happy in their personal lives?" Or you think "Wow but they’re kind of like either they haven't actually done it they've just been put at the front of it or they're like a bitch or really bitchy or like a tyrant" or whatever it is.

When I look at that, I’m like actually that’s probably the way I see some people, you know? That’s probably the way that is in some ways for me in my conceptions. I think that it’s just what it’s become and it’s actually obviously got better in some ways, but there is still a long way to go in that respect.

When I knew that we were going to be having this conversation, I looked into the general sentiment around your brand. You’ve got a huge, hugely engaged, wonderful community of people. You’ve got this true fanbase or supporters that understand you and they get you, probably because they've followed you for a long time. They followed your vlogs and they like know who you are.

Then as is the case with pretty much every successful person I’ve seen, there’s also the antithesis of that, there's the opposite. There's people who, as you've said, will try and highlight reasons why you maybe don't deserve to be where you are, you don't deserve credit. This is something that pretty most of the guests I’ve faced I’ve sat with have faced to some degree. It’s not easy to take, right? Because I know, irrespective of background, you have to work hard, really, really fucking hard. Be honest with me, how does that feel?

I think that I think it’s an important discussion to have first and foremost. I think that and I think I'll be the first to say that. I spend a lot of time in the book, for example, contextualizing success because I think it’s very important, especially when you’re presented three people on your Instagram feed in the same square and one of them's your mate from school, one of them's your mom, and one of them's Beyoncé. It’s kind of like this democratization of the news feed that makes everything look the same.

You don't see the teams, you don't see the privilege, you don't see all of the above. I think that it’s a very important conversation to have. So to be perfectly honest, I’d rather people have that conversation and maybe write off my success based on that. I think also aside from that, I do think that a lot of the people who do follow me and have followed me for a long time know my work ethic. They know that I work hard and they know that often that's been an unhealthy amount.

I use work as a coping mechanism, so it's been through the worst times in my life, that's what I know I can do and that's what I throw myself into. I'd rather that conversation be had and me be able to know in myself why I've been successful and how I've worked. I think that's first and foremost, that's important. That's how I'm able to push through and be able to do what I do is because I know why it is. I also know that there have been things that have helped me. And then that doesn't matter.

The important thing is that we're able to have the conversations and able to... like I'm able to know as well in myself, I know.

That's a very mature position to take. I've got to be honest, it's a very mature position to take, but I’m skeptical as to whether it's always been as easy to take as that. Talk to me about the process.

I think that any justified criticism—or it might be justified, it might be unjustified—criticism is hard to take. I don't think you can have a mature standpoint towards something and equally it's still going to feel like a punch in the stomach. And that's fine. I think that one of the things that I wouldn't wish, when I think for my children, that I wouldn't necessarily want them to be in is I wouldn't want them to be in a higher profile position when they're younger.

Because I talk about, I have this whole chapter in the book which is essentially a probably like the most honest I've been in a long time because it's as I've said, it's a... there's no instant feedback loop. I can write this and not hear back from it for a year. It's me talking about how actually essentially I feel like a lot of I became known at a time where my self-confidence was at its worst.

Therefore, I was able to I guess rather than filling that lack of confidence with confidence and self-worth, I filled it with validation. Therefore, when I decided to take a step back from social media because I decided that wasn't what I wanted to do first and foremost as my job, that kind of band-aid was ripped off because it didn't exist. That's when I realized that these things are the things that we need to be able to deal with and we need to be able to cobble together to be able to, no matter whether this person thinks X, Y, and Z about yourself, how much does that matter?

If it does matter and if you do think it's wrong, are you going to do something about it? And can you still get on with your day essentially? I think that there are people who are amazing who I see on social media who I wouldn't give a single criticism to that I can think of, that I'm sure get the exact same thing. There are people who've been to hell and back and get the exact same thing. And there are people who actually have done, you know, have lucked out and get the exact same thing.

In the grand scheme of things, I don't think it necessarily matters. I think what matters is that you know in yourself and you also know that if there's something that you need to change, that you can change that. If you want to, if I guess sometimes when something like other things hit a nerve or whatever, like do you need to change that? Do you need to address that? Do you need to do better? So I think that's kind of how I tackle it.

But of course, no, there's not like a something in me where I get a message that says you look ugly and I'm like "Thank you." Like, that doesn't happen. That's not an initial reaction. But I think that you have to be rational when we're not designed to be taking this much feedback and criticism. Even if it's not criticism, if someone like I say the whole time "Oh I don't like that color, I don't like a clothing or like whatever it might be," to the designer that might rip them to shreds or whatever. It's not mean; it's an opinion.

We're not designed to be able to take that in. So I think that there has to be a sort of rationalization on a human part. If you are in that position, you have a duty to yourself to learn how to deal with that or to remove yourself from the situation. Otherwise, it's just untenable, I guess.

You've got two key businesses and when you run a business, when you're young, irrespective of age, you undergo a couple of things: real unexpected chaos at any given moment, then also a tremendous amount of sacrifice. I actually wanted to start on the sacrifice piece because I don't think people, as you said earlier, get to fully see the full picture of sacrifice and cost, both personal and professional. Talk to me about some of the sacrifice that even you didn't expect before you got into business and before your business grew.

I think that at the same time as I kind of benefited hugely from having money at university, for example, I also went to university expecting one thing and then actually spent it essentially getting up at X hour, working on university stuff because I never ever ever wanted to give them an excuse to think that I wasn't concentrating fully on my university, and then working all the way essentially way into the night to get the other stuff done.

I also that comes with being high profile, that comes with a lot of these things. So I guess one of those things was very much like there was the time and the life experience and all of that that because things took off quickly at one stage, even if it wasn't the businesses took off... the businesses have done much more over the past year and a half or whatever when I haven't been at uni. But at that point, you know, the high profileness, all of that, that came with I guess different to what I was expecting and or not what I was expecting, I wasn't expecting it at all.

Therefore, there was kind of I guess something that I really did want for myself I didn't get, but I also got a lot more in another way, I guess.

What did you want for yourself?

Well, I just wanted the university experience really. I think that I was so... once this took off, I'm a very determined person and I get a vision and I'll work for it day and night. I think that I actually got to I think in that instance you it's kind of like a fork in the road and you decide, "Okay well I'm taking this one and I'm going to concentrate on this, I'm going to grow the businesses, I'm going to all of that."

I saw the deadline for that as my end of university because if I had to if it wasn't as big as I wanted it to be by that time or if it wasn't whatever it might be, I was going to choose I was going to go into a normal career. I was so dedicated to making that happen rather than, you know, I wanted to grow up too quickly essentially. I'm 23, and I think that a lot of that has been I guess in terms of people's whether when it's people who meet you, their perception of you or whatever it might be.

So I think that was something where it was a choice I'd make again and again, but it was I guess a sacrifice that I wasn't expecting to make. I guess that comes with everything that comes with relationships, with friends, with time in general, with time to yourself, time to whatever. I think having a business in a way—and I'm sure some people will disagree—but having a business in a way is like having a baby.

You can't just up and do whatever, you can't say no when a crisis comes in at 1 AM. That is what it is. You get all the other benefits with those conditions. So I think that you know that's kind of a constant one, like you can't say "Oh I'm going to quit this and go and do this for two years," because especially when you've got X amount of people working for you, you've got all of their salaries, you've got all of their pensions, you've got, you know, it's a huge responsibility.

And the buck stops with you, right?

Yeah. And that's you know it's an important one.

Do you... sometimes I reflect on the business journey and just how like obsessive it is and all-consuming it is, and I think it's a bit of a disease. I'm like, why did I choose this to like...

It's almost like masochistic. Like obviously it's got the most amazing benefits but it is also like I remember what I remember my friend saying—I can't remember—I think I really we'd agreed to just just lockdown things. We'd agreed to watch a movie on a Sunday night and then the thing came up and I was just like, "You know what, I'm going to like I'm going to do this, I'm just going to work harder so it's just going to be easier for this week." And it was like a tiny sacrifice.

My housemate turned around to me and she was like, "What is the point of you working this hard for this many years if you can't watch a movie on a Sunday night?" And I was like, "Yeah fair." Like as in, you're not wrong. I'm still going to do it, but like you know, you're not wrong. It's...

What is the answer to that question though? So say because I've muddled over this as well, if I'm working obsessively every day, at what point does is enough?

Yeah, well I think that it all comes with what you want. I've listened to you before and I've listened to you kind of saying that there came a point that you realized that it wasn't about money, so like what was it about? And I think for me, there's the kind of aspect of it's it's for the businesses and I have these really clear dreams for the businesses that result in dreams for me as well, sure.

But I think that that is I think I'll come to a, you know, if I decide to sell a business or whatever, I'll come to that road there where I'm like, "Okay, what is it for now?" And I think that knowing myself anyway, I know pre-business, post-business I'm sure I am like that. So whether it's this or whether it's something else or you know and I hope I can channel that into something else at some point that doesn't require every inch of your being.

I know I'm like that, so it's kind of like, "Yeah sure, it might be for nothing, but it's I'm going to do it anyway." Like there doesn't need to be reasoning behind the fact that this is how I am. I have always been I've always been like this. I've always been kind of like, "I'm going to make this happen," like whether that's kind of through like coordinating all the babysitting jobs that you got in one night and allocating them out to your friends and stuff.

Oh wow, that's smart.

Or you know taking essentially like any job ever that like that I could, then you know that's all that's what I'm like, so I kind of know that...

Where did that come from though?

I think probably a few things. I know that everyone in my family is a very hard worker and that is very it's kind of almost like an like an anxiety to do well even though like my parents were not pushy at all. I think people assume, you know especially if you go to Oxford or like whatever, my least pushy people ever. I think that actually it I kind of was discussing this with my sister the other day, I was like "Where does it come from?"

It doesn't come from our parents. Like it comes from them clearly because they had it in themselves, but you know like they both my parents had careers when I was growing up. I lived with my mom, just me my mom and we had a tenant who lived in my mom's house and my mom was working pretty much all the time, incredibly like I respect her so much for it because I also never grew up thinking like, "Oh it's weird for a woman to have a career and have four children and like whatever."

She just you know she worked all the time and and she loved it. She loved it and she gave her like everything to it. And so I I think I spent a lot of I spent a lot of time kind of in that situation knowing that I also wanted to love what I do. And I think there is this misled like perception that you know like if you love what you do you'll never work a day in your life blah blah blah blah blah.

But I also think that there is this like it's a flow state isn't it? Like you have something that matches your challenge and your skill level and you get more fulfillment than you'll get from anything. And I think I was so I used to say I remember saying it like I think it was when I was like 15, 16 and I would take like work experience from anyone every single holiday and every single school holiday.

I remember my teacher saying like "You should probably choose one of the avenues and then you can do like more within that" or something. And I remember just saying to them like "I'm so terrified that I'll be stuck in something that I hate." And it was like a constant like and I don't think it's necessarily good I don't think it was necessarily healthy I was constantly so terrified that you know the same was for university the same was for whatever. Like I didn't get into Oxford the first time I applied.

Oh really?

I didn't. And I went again. Like I literally that same day I went online and I found what I could do for a year that would earn me some money to be able to not be I guess studying that year and went to and applied for the IBM futures scheme which is the one they do for gap year students that literally same day and then applied again the next year. And like as in I was I'm very like that. It's very set on kind of one thing and if that thing then doesn't work I either want to do it again like it's really clear to me I either want to do it again or I'm like that wasn't right and then I move on. But I know that I'm very straight out and very like I will not stop until I I get it right.

What's the... going back to the business and the chaos and the sacrifice. Is there one day in your business career over the last couple of years which was your worst day? Or your toughest challenge?

I think my toughest challenge in general was there was this stupid stupid time that I'm constantly praised for that was the worst decision I've ever made in my life which was that I was coming up to my university finals. I was launching a business too I think it was a month before my university finals. Yeah, I was launching a business beginning of May, the 7th of May if I'm right, and I start I finished my finals on the 6th of June. Now that meant that 40,000 words were due and five three-hour exams within the space of two weeks.

And I also wanted to launch my business and I also wanted to do well at university I'd been working with that for three years but I'd persuaded people as well I'd persuaded people to spend money on this launch I'd persuaded people to you know so I was going to do it right. People were like "You're amazing like this is so great like how can you do this?" And I'm like "You are a... like it's not wise it's not smart like it's not like this isn't a competition for how many boxes you can tick within a small space of time."

That is like a fast track towards burnout and either something going incredibly wrong or whatever. And I think that that you know like as I've said work was always a coping mechanism for me so it was always kind of like well if we if we have to do it now or we like run out of money before launch then we're doing it now. And I don't care like I can work X, Y and Z.

And I actually have like a whole like chapter in a book where I'm essentially talking about like that was the time that I felt most validated in being a hard worker. And I felt like cause I was I was in the library at 3 AM and I was also on the phone with the suppliers at you know 7 AM the next morning and all of X, Y and Z and people could see it and I was living it I was like hustle the hustle. And that was when I was like "Wow like this is it like I am the hard worker like with capital H and W and like this is me."

And I think that that is like that kind of sums it all up in the way that that was a huge challenge also an incredibly unwise challenge at the time and yet why did that feel like the time I was doing it right? So that's actually that's a lot of what's spurred on essentially why I was writing the book because it was kind of like how can that be the epitome of hard work when that is also the epitome of not being productive? Like that's like completely unproductive and not useful for anyone.

You're not going to be nice with the people you deal with at the time you have a higher chance of actually like messing things up and all of that and yet why was that the one time that I felt like truly validated for what I was doing?

And you were broadcasting that.

And I was broadcasting that and there'll be people I'm sure who see me now who are like "But she you know did this and that" and like yeah sure I work really hard I really do. But there are some things that it's kind of like I address that and work like as I said to you while I was writing the book there were so many things that I noticed I was like "I'm the problem here as well I perpetuate this. How can I criticize a culture a the hustle culture that I benefit from at the same time? How can I do that?"

And I think that I think that's what made me you know that's why I say that this book was such like a soul-searching process for me cause I was like "You know what is that? Why is that? Like is that because I need the validation? Is that because we all need the validation now because hard work's become so unobtainable because it has to be doing this job, that job like everything in between, also being amazing at self-care also doing like X, Y and Z."

And I think that that's when I was kind of like "Okay this is a challenge but it's not only a challenge it was a silly thing to do." So it's not even like a you know there are things you have to do there are crises you have to deal with and all of that that will be a challenge and will also be incredibly rewarding and all of that and most of them are. But I think there are other things that you look at and you're like "Yep this was a challenge and it also didn't have to happen. Let's not do that again."

You mentioned burnout. And I remember reading a quote in a in a piece that you know an interview that you did where you talked about mental health generally and how you know you'd you'd reflected that maybe you weren't representing mental health in the right way. I think you said you were giving advice but it didn't apply to yourself in terms of like talking and being open about it. Talk to me about your mental health and the journey you've been on with your mental health since you were you know 18.

Well as I've said I think probably a one of the reasons that I think I you know in that in that post to give context I guess I said that I am one of the biggest advocates for people talking about their mental health. We have mental health days like within our the company like you know you can take days off and you can literally just take a duvet day and it could be you know because of your mental health whatever it might be.

And I'm the biggest advocate for that and talking about it and everything. And then as soon as it came to me no. Like that was not it's not the same case like I'm not going to talk about it I'm not going to deal with it. And it actually got to a point that I was having seizures essentially from something really horrible that I went to that was through that was essentially ended up giving me PTSD that presented in seizures. And obviously I was having symptoms up to the point of the seizures but I only took it seriously when it was a physical symptom.

Like when it came to the point that I was like "Okay like I'm being hospitalized now like this is not ideal at all." And that was the thing that made me slow down and that was the thing that made me or not even slow down I don't think I even think I necessarily hugely slowed down after that but it was kind of like "Okay this is real and this is just as like if something can manifest so physically that you're having a fucking seizure then you probably need to take this more seriously."

And that was you know like that was that was tough that was right before my third year at university that that started. And everything up until then like I've been a I think I have this like really toxic mental health attitude within myself that doesn't prioritize it that isn't kind of that kind of sees it as weakness even though that's the last thing that I'd see you know in any of my friends who suffer from depression or or anxiety or like whatever it might be.

And it's completely different. It's like we don't get the same treatment. Like I'll give you know I'll understand that and I'll see that and I won't do that and I'm sure there are lots of people who are the exact same.

You're not being compassionate to yourself but to everybody else.

Exactly. And I think that that's another reason why I really needed to like look inside myself and be able to evaluate that and be able to look at like why? Like why is that the case? Like why do you feel so undeserving of the justification for like you know having bad mental health at one time? And I've been lucky that you know apart from this which was a result of specific trauma I've generally been you know I've had generally good mental health and I've you know been able to deal with I I guess you know like I think a lot of the way mental health is presented is really damaging.

In that you know people do I I've had friends who've kind of said like "Oh yeah but you know I don't want to take meds for my depression" or whatever and everyone has different views on it but it's kind of being like "Well any other chemical imbalance in your brain you would because you'd say like 'Hey I need this to offset this or I need insulin to offset this' or whatever." And yet it's like a it's like a you know what's it what's she called like Mrs. Trunchbull you know from from Matilda that you like have in your brain that's like "You do not like get this" or like "You do not like deserve to have that compassion" or whatever it might be.

So I think that like I've had a and I think I'm what's so strange is that I don't know about you but I'm able to talk about mental health really openly and I literally had so I I thought it was really important for me to I think as a business owner I think it's probably important for I mean I think it's important for everyone but for business owners I think it's important for everyone to get therapy cause you're not meant to go through that much chaos all the time.

Like you're not meant to have three messages a day that could kill your business. And yet you do and you're like and then you're like the next like 15 minutes later you're like "So what's...?" like as in you're fine you get you get like programmed to get up again as a as second nature and then you never deal with things. So I kind of I kind of decided I was like I'm going to get like I'm just going to have it once a week and it's just going to be literally like an offload.

And then I sat in it for kind of like two months and I was like "I'm like I haven't cried yet and I'm a crier so I'm clearly talking about my mental health as if I'm doing an interview and if I'm like you know just able to talk about it like 'Yeah like I think it's important and like this is...'" and it's like "This is everything that's okay to talk about, this is everything that's not," and I won't address that. And I think that's something for me to I guess to deal with.

And I think that the important thing is as a owner of a business that has people within it and a you know and as someone with a platform and all of that all of those things make it really important for me to treat mental health properly both for myself and for other people. But I don't think I do.

But you are setting a really remark you know what you said there about being a business owner and it's important for you to get therapy. One of the the other points that I think of good that you'll be doing by doing that is you're setting a precedent for all of your employees that even me as the boss you know and that creates a safe space for other people. In my business it was the same so we we made mental health therapy opt out.

Yeah I saw that.

So like and it meant that the men who were hiding in the back that didn't want to be tough guys or whatever you know I was going. And I told the directors of business my co-founder to go as well. And that week my co-founder Dom said he got a total something like 11 messages from men in the business that had been suffering from mental health but just had never spoken about it. And he became like the de facto male therapist in our company for that reason.

What I wanted to go back to you on is the point you know you talked about this buildup that you had which culminated in you being hospitalized with your mental health. I had a I had a guest on the podcast a couple of a couple of weeks ago and she was a she's a kayaker and she something something changed in her life and it meant and she wasn't listening to her body. And ultimately she ended up getting chronic fatigue syndrome where she went from being a kayaker that could kayak for two hours to not being able to lift up her hands.

She said there were these warning signs in my life that I just ignored until my body went "Listen if you're not going to listen to me then we're shutting down." And it sounded very similar to what you were saying. So my question is what are those what were those warning signs that you were in some respects by the sounds of it ignoring?

Yeah I won't talk about specifically from from that perspective. I do think it's important to talk about in terms of burnout as a whole. So when we I think the same thing applies to kind of like the way that this kind of productivity like rat race comes across now is that you essentially need to be working as fast as you possibly can. It's not productivity at all. It's working I guess if you look at productivity like the definition is that you get the most amount done in the least amount of time.

But that has fine like that taken as one and then that's multiplied so you're getting the most amount done in the least amount of time so that you can do the most amount in the least amount of time again rather than being able to just you know do that and move on and fine that's good. Like we should be you know we should be efficient we should be effective all of these things are important. But I think that you know it's also the equivalent of expecting someone like that or a marathon runner ultra-marathon runner to sprint for the whole marathon.

Like it's ineffective they're not going to win they're also probably going to get injured you know there's nothing beneficial about it and we see it from a physical perspective and we completely ignore it from a mental perspective or from a work perspective. And I think that that's why it's so important to talk about especially you and me people who are essentially will be seen in some way as like what hard work looks like that results in success or whatever it might be.

The acknowledgment that working hard does not mean working all the time and like having it all does not mean like doing it all and all of these various different things that actually are important to look at from ourselves as well because like as I said like I realized that actually probably I was perpetuating a lot more than I meant to and that was why I then ended up needing to perpetuate things because you know I constantly wanted to show people that I was actually working hard which actually all it gave off was "This is how what hard work looks like."

And therefore there's you know it's probably stopping a whole generation of people who actually want to do something but see some see you know "I'm not that type of person. I actually don't get up in the morning and want to read like some disgustingly boring like non-fiction book." And like but actually being able to acknowledge that and find some middle ground and find some realization that it doesn't always like it's not going to be the same for you as it is for someone else and the same goes for hard work.

And I think for for me you know I now and I think largely because of having written this book I now see when I'm lagging I now see when I need a rest I now see you know I'm able to construct a working week that essentially you know is able I'm able to be CEO at both companies and I'm able to do all my work and I'm able to do my own work too that isn't just responsive to other people's work.

And then I think you know and I'm able to culminate that in a way that is I guess a livable way of me working. And there have been times where it's not that there've been times where it's you know like hell to leather and doing everything possible but that's a needs must amount of time that is not representative of what hard work looks like. And then being able to recognize that within myself and say like "That's okay. Like you're not weak because you have to sleep. Like you're not weak because you have to you know like sit back sometimes or your creativity just isn't coming out."

You're just like a human or not even like even machines can't do that. Like if you had a machine like working like it would go into overdrive or if it was set on the wrong thing or if it was you know like doing too many things at once it would go into overdrive. So like we don't it's not even that we don't realize we're humans we don't realize like limits at all. We just have no boundaries and I think that that's what's important.

There's been there's been a big shift I think over the last I'd say two years there's been a huge conversation around burnout right? And it's gotten to the point I did a post about this the other day but it's gotten to the point where it actually I actually feel bad talking about working hard. And I I played around with that idea because on one hand you can be deceitful in the sense that you say like "I I work 24 hours a day and I never sleep."

And on the other hand you can be really deceitful in saying "Listen hard work doesn't matter."

"Self-care and like sit back and put on a face mask."

Like I don't want to lie to you. I still work really hard but obviously there's a nuance and balance and sometimes I don't have good days sometimes but I don't know anyone that's really successful that doesn't work hard. I don't know any athlete you know so...

100%. I I think what I even realized was that after I kind of went through all of this like self-discovery and writing the think pieces and all of that and then I sat down to write the productivity method and I was like "I feel like Gordon Ramsay telling someone he's like an idiot sandwich." Like I literally feel like I'm being that harsh just because I'm telling you that actually if you want to get that done you've got to get it done.

And like I think that's why the whole reason I repositioned it rather than you know it's not just cause as soon as you're that then you're equally as harmful in the perpetuation of like self-care culture that now has these knee-jerk reactions that's either like it's like a cult and it's like this wellness thing or it's like a waste of time. There's like a middle ground like that is important for everyone but it doesn't just need to be kind of like you know like face masks and everything.

It can be it it has to be like part of all of it. So yeah you might work till 3 AM from 6 AM every night for a month. I would argue that that's not that possible beyond that point. Like it might be and you might be an incredibly hard worker and you know like and I I perceive myself to be. But you still at the end of it all you still need rest. And yes you're completely right there's no the glory and no kind of benefit in also perpetuating the completely the other side.

You know sometimes self-care is the most productive thing you can do but also sometimes productivity is an act of self-care. Like you need to it's self-care to look at that project that you've been putting off for three weeks for the 50th time and actually get it done. That's self-care. Like that isn't it doesn't have to be you know this that or the other. It doesn't need to be compartmentalized into like you know some forms of work are self-care some forms of self-care are like work you know like it goes both ways.

And I think that that's what's important. I think it's rather than choosing one or the other it's just real. It's like being realistic and being you know you don't always need to be like disarmingly like "I've had a bad day today" cause I also feel in the same way like I can't be asked to do that the whole time. Like I don't when I've had a bad day I don't instantly think like "Ah I will get the reward from being vulnerable by sharing this on social media." Like that's not my instant reaction.

But at the same time there is an importance and I do think that people like us also have a duty to be able to share both sides even if it's that being like you know like I was up till 11 last night writing a crisis plan for something. Like you know like you constantly have these things and it's like and then like so there's just so many different types of I guess there are so many different angles to it. And as long as there's kind of a more realistic thing as long as you don't feel weak to say that you sleep or whatever and you also don't feel like you're being like really mean to say like you have to work hard to do well both of those are wrong so like there must be a middle ground.

And the the left side you speak you speak to I'm just calling it the left just because it was the left my I raised my left hand when I described it I'm not saying it's the left...

No but it is.

It is is like um I've always considered myself to be more left than I am anything else but um I've felt somewhat alienated by this kind of lack of personal responsibility, blame someone else, um pessimism culture that's emerging from that side. And I in some respects as someone that's been a social media CEO for about almost 10 years I understand the algorithms will create echo chambers and they'll reinforce things and you'll and they're actually polarizing us to be the right are more on the right and the left are more on the left.

And my point here is that um I like to be a bit more nuanced. I don't think binary solutions to complex um problems ever make sense: left, you know rich poor, black white, um left right, whatever it is. And I posted posted something about um personal responsibility and being grateful and things you can do if you're feeling bad. And there was a lot of people that said I was—and I actually take this as a compliment—they said I was toxic positive. And there's this whole new this whole new phrase now: being too positive, being so positive that it makes people feel bad. And I don't give a shit, right?

I also think we have toxic things within ourselves and that's like if you tell but if you also like you can tell me I'm toxicly positive and I'm like if so for example like I might be the same in that I know that you know I'm not I would consider myself probably like a realist I wouldn't consider myself like a constant optimist. But I also know that like my coping mechanism for anything going wrong is to make something else go right. So if that needs me to work hard if that needs me to push completely into work for 40 days and 40 nights then like I'll do it.

But I think that you know I think cau you know being able to label something as something doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad. I think sure if someone thinks that's toxic positivity then fine. A, I don't think that necessarily needs to be kind of you know like nothing is going to be nuanced enough on social media for you to understand unless it's like a 2,000 word think piece. But I also think that like these things exist like we all know some of these like I know that I have bad coping mechanisms in some way I know that.

I don't need anyone else to tell me. Or if they do like it's fine but it doesn't like there's no benefit here like you're still going to think that way and therefore if you're sharing more of your thoughts it's still going to be like that. You might be toxicly positive but it's that's you know that's you and that's what you're also going to say and like that would also be you'd also be lying to then say "Okay well I'm going to make this more realistic and so I'm going to do X, Y and Z and I'm going to put that out there."

And then there are going to be more people who say the other side. So it's like you can either spend your life like swinging back and forth between like what people perceive to be right and you're never going to get everyone because obviously as you say it's completely polarized. But or you can it kind of be like "Yeah you might not like this."

I just my whole stance is like I've read a lot of stuff about psychology, studied psychology for a little while, I I've had my life experience and if you follow me you're here to get that stuff. And you don't have to agree, you don't even have to like it. And there's loads of other and I think I do a story the other day being like "There's loads of places you can get like fluffy you know face masks are the answer to everything stuff. It's just not here." Because of my lived experience and I understand I have a you know a bias because I'm an individual that's had an individual experience.

When I was stalking you online Grace I found it really hard to find a boyfriend. I was I was looking a lot. Like I was I was found like I was like "Fuck it, we'll try Google Images too." Google Images, I was like "These are just friends." And then I was like...

Yeah, I mean I don't think anyone will find a boyfriend probably until I'm maybe married with kids. But I mean as in not that there won't be one. Yeah yeah, I I'm not that's it's not in the public eye.

There's a boyfriend there because I read some stuff about you meeting this guy when you were like 15 and then you on...

Oh no no no, there's not a boyfriend there. Oh there's not a boyfriend there? Okay. But there's never going to be a boyfriend there for people to see. But yeah.

Right. Being young, being successful, being a woman.

I knew where this was going.

Yeah, so maybe I don't have to ask the question. I'm just saying like I ask this question a lot of guests because probably because I've struggled myself right? So being young, you're successful woman in business, a lot of guys just going to be honest would be quite intimidated, right? You don't have to answer that but they would. I'm one of them, I'll tell you right? I'm not speaking from myself, I'm speaking from some insecure friends that I have that would feel intimidated by their their partner who is a woman being successful. That's just some men are insecure enough to find that emasculating.

Talk to me about the difficulties of having romantic relationships when you are young, you are successful, you are a woman.

Um, I'd say it's not necessarily what I'm concentrated on first and foremost. And just just from like, you know, I want to do lots of things before I concentrate on that. I also think that one of the things that I guess I've found cause what you're saying is true, but I think what I find comforting in that is also the fact that like I don't want to be with someone who finds that emasculating. So I think it's quite a good um it's quite a good kind of whittle down process.

Nice. Filter. Yeah.

Yeah. Like if you find it emasculating like that's fine in the same way as like any other thing that people might not like about someone. You don't want to be with someone who doesn't you know like my work is the biggest part of me—and that's really sad, it's not—but like it's a huge part of my life and it will be and I would never want to be with someone who thought that was anything short of like great. And so it doesn't necessarily I mean maybe it will trouble me down the line, but currently it's kind of like yes I completely agree. I think people do find it intimidating and emasculating. I also think that that's kind of you know as I say that doesn't necessarily change anything because it's actually not you know I would have no interest in being with someone who can be emasculated by that. So.

And at this point in your life do you foresee in the future at some point you wanting to be with a partner?

Yes, yeah. I I mean I think I think naturally I think a lot of people do, or I'd say probably the large... yeah yeah and I think that it's important especially with women not to presume because you know...

I've made that mistake before you know.

Yeah. No I mean I've I you know I could have like one friend who I think of who I know she she knows that she doesn't want to like ever have like a life partner, like she doesn't it doesn't make sense to her, which I think is completely I think makes sense you know like but I think that for you absolutely at some point and but I'm in no rush. I mean I'm very young.

When that day comes, what are the the difficulties you see in the current way that you live your life and forming a relationship with whoever this person this lucky person might be?

Um I'd say the first problem is probably going to be closet space. I think no I think in general...

Why is is Grace difficult to date and why?

Probably yes, you should probably ask a few people. Um no I mean I think that I'm an incredibly loving person and I'm incredibly dedicated to the people I love. And that currently is filled by amazing friends and family and people I'm lucky to have in my life. And I think that that will you know at some point as I say like that will absolutely hopefully be filled by you know that type of position. But I I think that the difficulties would probably just you know be about around understanding that work is as important as it is to me.

And I think that you know like I've had relationships in the past and that is you know like that does become a problem. And I also think that you know then you can't necessarily combat that by having someone who's the same otherwise you're never going to see each other. Like I think I probably would want someone who has the same values in that way but there has to be like a kind of middle ground or there has to be then you know some sort of way in which you will see each other once every 15 years or something. Um but but no I think the troubles will be around work and they won't be around emasculation because as I say that wouldn't be you know then there's no space for that.

But I think you know in the same way as I'm able to be a great friend and family member and you know all of that now it's going to me it's an extension of that. To me it won't be you know any different. I know in my qualities you know I probably probably part of the reason why that's not what I want now is because I also know that I care a lot about that. So you know if I am in that situation I will give a lot to that and currently I don't have a lot to give to that. So you know I think it's a prioritization for me and currently that's not a priority. Yeah.

How has running business and the way that people have treated you in business especially being a young entrepreneur—and I reflect on this in my own life—changed you as a friend as a person you know your patience your snappiness your tolerance?

I think I'm a lot more I think there's part of it that's actually quite interesting that I've been thinking more about recently where if you're in business and you call the shots how does that develop in friendship? So I I actually talked about that recently. I don't think I've you know I've had to grow in confidence to say especially to for example men who are have far more experience than me and are technically you know working for me. Like they there's been a point where it's kind of like "Ah can I say like that this is not right? Or like whatever?"

And I've developed that. But I think you know I think I've now developed that well and I don't think I have a problem with that now. And therefore I think you know there's going to be part of that where you then like how does that switch off automatically the second you step through your door and you're with your family or your friends or your housemates or whatever? And I think that's probably something that I'll you know I'm very grateful that I think someone once asked me like "How do you stay like grounded and down to earth?"

And I think that I don't go for the types of friends that obviously my friends like bring me up and they're my biggest fans but there is no smoke being blown anywhere. Like as in they will be the first person to also say you know and that's what I value. Like I don't want to be in a superior position in friendship in family relations in whatever it is. And I will never be with the friends and family that I have. And I think that's so important.

And I think that that can absolutely affect people. And I think that you know I've seen people then surround themselves only with people in their position or only with whatever. And I think that you know one of the most valuable things I have is that a lot of my friends are in entry-level jobs and I'm able to see from their point of view what's the most frustrating thing about their workplace and not feeling valued or whatever. I'm allowed I can make sure that that I try for like my best to make sure that that never happens for people within mine.

And I think that so you can get those you know you get so many benefits from having different people around you. Primarily like no one is kind of there yeah as we say blowing smoke.

What about what about when the bill comes?

Oh well first of all you'll be pleased to hear that my friends like to go to very cheap places which I also like I I I love a you know nice dinner and a nice like whatever but you will not I mean you'll find me buying a bottle in a club if it's one of my friends' birthdays or like whatever you know like I love treating my friends I love taking them on holiday like I love you know but it's you can tell when that's someone who's there for that. I also have the large majority of my friends have been around me for a long time.

And um I think I generally trust myself to be a good judge of character I've got it wrong before um you know I've had things where I've kind of like taken people on trips left right and center and then you can tell that like that was the aim. Um but like in general actually you know I have amazing people around me and like I think we I'm I like to consider myself a generous person and I want to you know do things like like yeah sometimes I will just be like I'll just get this or like whatever it might be and and I'm in a position to do that and I think especially if you know there'll be a friend who's been um asking for her workplace for a raise for three years and it hasn't even gone up with inflation and there's kind of like all of that and then you're like they're ways that you can you can help.

And it's not the it's not compensating for that but it's being able like you need to be able to be grounded enough and like whatever to be able to still be a friend to people who are in you know either a very different situation or like whatever it might be. And I think that I never want to lose that. So yeah I'll buy nice things for people and I'll do that just as I would for any like anyone like my sister or whatever if they need something. But it's I think I'll tell instantly and maybe not maybe I'm being walked all over by everyone but I'm happy so...

No I mean we find ourselves in the same position largely right? And I think the interesting point is you've been successful and the people that you love you want to share that you know you want to have good times and good experiences with. But being realistic mathematically they won't be able to have those experiences unless you create them right? And so that creates a bit of a an issue for you because you want to you know have good times with your friends but you know that you know that you're you're gonna you're gonna have to create that situation whether it's a holiday.

And it's not a problem for you because you love these people and they're good people. But it can sometimes create a...

Yeah yeah of course and there's a I think also like the important thing from because I know people who talk about that problem but also they love the flex. So it's like okay if you're complaining that you're always the one paying for the bill and you're also the same person saying for three weekends in a row let's go to Nobu or even one weekend like everything's fucking expensive like you know like you're going to like that generates a certain type of thing.

And I think that you know that's not necessarily their fault then but I also think that there's a you know if you want to be doing that all the time and you're the only person in that position in your friend group then you're you know there's a certain thing that's demanded of you. But I think like at the same time like you can be a good friend and be like very generous and like like I understand that I'm incredibly fortunate to be in my position and I want to get them nice Christmas presents and nice like whatever it might be and take people on holiday like if I you know I want to go or whatever it might be.

But um I think yeah largely yeah it's a difficult it's not a difficult position to be in like it's an incredibly fortunate position to be in but there are things that come with it and I think that you know thankfully I haven't been I guess like harmed by that too much and I you know intend to I don't want that to make me a bad person and I don't think it will.

Well it sounds like you're keeping the right people around you and that's probably the most important thing right? People that will tell you when you're stepping out of line.

Oh trust me, yeah. They'll be the first person to be like "This comes across awfully." Like this is like... they'll be like "Thank you so much. This is really great. No more trips to Dubai, Becky! Sorry."

We talked a little bit before we got on we started recording about working culture and how working culture has changed and how the pandemic has shifted things to being you know working from home. What do you what's your take on working culture and how teams should operate and how your teams operate and stuff?

So I've been reading a lot about this recently actually. Um general things you know like Rework, Work Rules, like all of those types of books talking about working culture. And I think that the main point of interest for me that I've kind of been exploring obviously largely has been the idea of working culture but how we internalize it and how our lack of boundaries within this generation has meant that we're have no boundaries between work or not work so it's kind of you can be working anywhere and everywhere.

So when you're not you've kind of internalized this idea that when you're not working everywhere and everywhere it's the equivalent of like being in an office and taking a nap like just because you're living your life. And I think that to me is the most that stands out as the most problematic kind of side of working culture within our generation. I also think that that is that is coupled with you know like companies like Google for example who are seen to have really good working culture because they support their employees they you know unlimited holiday all of that.

Some of that is also a thinly veiled way of making people work more cause they don't have to do their laundry they don't have to cook their lunch they don't have to um you know they're not going to take any of that holiday if they're given unlimited but they do feel valued so they work harder you know. And I think that it's really complex and I think that it's not necessarily like I definitely couldn't deconstruct it as a whole and I probably perpetuate it in some ways but I think that it's important that we look at it more and more now these boundaries are absolutely gone.

Especially you know I started having some of these thoughts and feelings when I started working from home before we progressed to having an office. Um and I kind of was thinking like "Why am I working more than I ever have and producing less than I ever have and also my mental health is on the floor?" Yeah. And I think that then when kind of there was the office exodus going at the at the kind of pandemic and then people kind of saying the same thing and all of that and I was like "Oh good" and I'm like "Why am I feeling happy at you know the fact that everyone else is struggling too?"

And it was you know it's a lack of boundaries. We have awful boundaries surrounding work, surrounding success, surrounding all of this. And it's part of a generation that I guess bulldozes boundaries in a kind of progressive sense but it ends up meaning that we actually don't know where we stand and we don't know what is good for us and I guess we are constantly on the hustle train being told to like do more think more achieve more like X, Y, Z without ever questioning whether it serves us because that's what we've been put on.

Like if you're a hard worker you have to go in that in that kind of way. And I talk a lot in the book as well about like the the kind of contradiction between the progressing values of like a four-day work week and you know amazing you know places like um Nordic countries that have amazing work rules and all of that and at the same time like at literally the exact same time and often by the same you know people the same kind of um examination of it we also have this idea that you kind of need to work all the time and it's like "How are we progressing in these two completely different directions and we don't necessarily know which one is right?"

And then if we're going down to the four-day work week is that because it makes us more productive so technically it's actually to make us like work more or produce more or whatever it might be. And so I guess it's all just very complex and I think that there's not enough examination around it in the mainstream I guess. Like you should be able to if you're in the financial position to and you want to and everything like you should technically be able to take your work down to four days a week or whatever and that seems like the most ludicrous suggestion ever.

Because you know you could always be producing more you could always be doing this you could always well then you should side hustle in that three-day weekend you get and like X, Y, Z. And so I think it is I think it's damaging and I think that yeah as I say we need to.

Isn't there something funny here where you know because we're talking about ideas that we would probably never live ourselves? Like you're not going to take three days off of a fucking weekend and...

I'd love to! I think I'd go insane. But but yeah in fair. Um but but yeah no I think it's completely true and I think that part of this has been me being like "Okay this is really unhealthy. This is actually problematic. This is X, Y, Z." And yet you are the embodiment of all of them. And I I but that's important and I think social media discourages that type of thought because you have to be on the defensive. You have to say like "Yeah this is a bad idea and this is a bad idea and yet I do both of them."

You you have to either acknowledge it's a bad idea or not acknowledge it's a bad idea and just do it. You can't have this like cognitive dissonance of thinking one thing and like doing another. Because yeah like sure that's a bad thing in some ways but also like you have to accept the fact that you don't always think what you're doing is a good idea or you don't you know you so know something's good in theory but don't do it or whatever. And I think social media completely bulldozes that opportunity because you have to like stand firm you have to stand your ground you have to.

And I found myself actually getting quite one of the reasons I stepped back from social media was because I felt like I was justifying myself constantly not to not outwardly to myself because I was like "I need to but like if I agree with this why do I do this? And like all of that." And I think that I had to be like this is causing so much like I'm going into overdrive because I don't know how to deal with the fact that I have multiple thoughts at once because social media makes you linear. It makes you binary. Yeah it makes that like lack of nuance like your thing like it's the MO. And so I think that that's kind of yeah where I realized that like we just can't discuss anything. Like you have to choose your camp you have to choose your like whatever.

You um when I first came across you it was a couple of years ago and it was actually on Twitter and I think I don't know I followed you you followed me let's just go with you followed me because it makes me look better. Um and I went on your profile and I remember going down and thinking "Here we have an influencer who actually like stands for something." And that was my only like real sort of that was my first sort of take on you. And then a couple of years passed by whatever.

And I I wondered as I was you know going through some of the tweets more recently that you know people just talking nonsense whatever. I I wondered you know there's a cost to that. There's a real cost to standing for something. Because then it's much easier just to stand for nothing because then I can't attack you for anything right? Because you're don't you know but when you decide that you want to stand for something whether it's sustainability or whether it's certain values you then are interrogated for perfection. And one human step out of line we've got you. Right?

Yeah yeah no absolutely. I think the same as in everyday life but it's magnified to a point. You know in the same way I remember when I I went vegan like three years ago now and I um my friend said that my friend the reason I went vegan was because my friend was ill at the time and she couldn't eat any dairy products and she was upset about it and we were um going we were actually going traveling together. And so I said I would do it with her and we were like "Let's just try it, it'll be fun!" And I was like "Fuck I really do not want to give this up."

But we did it and then we actually stuck to it. And I was kind of like "I actually like this. It works really well for me." Um and I and she was saying how hard her friends were taking it and how like they would just like be like "Ha you just ate that that actually apparently has like this!" And it's like it's the same. It's just magnified and I think that I think that part of it is projection. We don't like to acknowledge that we think one thing and sometimes do another in ourselves but we love to pick it up on other people.

And I think part of it's just as we say it's the binary of social media, it's the lack of kind of you know it's the fact that that is going to happen. And I do you know you find yourself doing things the whole time where you're like "Ooh probably shouldn't have done that or like whatever." And I think social media amplifies that to the point that it's so much more of a big deal than it needs to be. Sometimes it does need to be a big deal like I'll stand by the fact that you know cancel culture's fine like in a lot of ways not great in some ways like there are some areas yeah really shouldn't be said or whatever.

But I think that there's also like an aspect of that that's kind of you know we live our lives constantly thinking one thing and doing another like cognitive dissonance like we you know like you know you should be better for the planet and yet you still buy fast fashion or you still like eat meat every day or like whatever it might be. It's how we operate and I think that that isn't allowed on social media. I don't think that's like a then like a complaint I think it's more like a that's how social media is.

And therefore if you're using it in that way there kind of needs to be an acknowledgment of the fact that that's just like I know that and I know where I go wrong and I know you know like where I'd like to do better. And that's for me to deal with. So you know and I so I think that that's something that we see across our lives and it's just hugely magnified.

When you made this decision to step back from social media I noticed you hadn't posted on YouTube either for about 11 months I have all my dates. Was there a part of you that thought you had let the negativity of social media win?

I don't think any time I've thought that I've realized that it's completely untrue because I've realized it later. So when I stepped back from YouTube that was about a you know a bit after all the things I've talked about that like I was going through and it wasn't right for me and I just decided not to do it. And I think that also part of that was a business decision. It's a like short-term loss to income in the kind of short term but everything I've done for the past three years has been towards longevity. It hasn't been about the short term.

Because I've been able you know at the beginning I accumulated enough to be able to make that change and to be able to say "Okay well I want to I want for in two years' time if I want to to be able to disappear." So you know that's I think rather than I don't think anything has to be a defeat. Like sure it could be. Some people could consider it that for themselves like great that's fine then we both win because I realized and once again I talk about it like I talk about kind of like the thought process behind it in my book and I realized that kind of that was actually not you know I had this choice to be full-time influencer I guess with my businesses in the background and I also had the choice to lean in and really make these businesses something and make them you know like much bigger and have the potential of you know growing them huge maybe selling one one day like whatever it might be.

And I think that I decided as well that actually what made me happy in the actual work itself was the head down, get it done, even like the crisis management, the working with a team till 3 AM, the building a brand, the all of that. That like I was so young and still am that I hadn't even started my career like sure I had but I like everyone I guess anyone at any time can do three years of something then decide to go to business school then decide to stop and do writing or like whatever it might be. That was my change.

That was me being like "Actually what do I like in the day-to-day?" It's not you know whatever like there was a lot of stuff that I was doing that I did love but I A I saw what was happening down the line I saw that it was really hard to maintain that after a certain amount of time. And as I've said I've always had this kind of constant anxiety that I'm going to end up doing something I don't want to do which has made me be probably quite proactive in actually being like "Actually no I'm going to do X, Y and Z to make this not happen."

And I think that you know sure like there was part of you know there'll be parts of it where it's like "Oh and also even better than that I mean I won't get the negativity" but I also loved the sense of community I loved you know at that time actually I didn't get much negativity at all like and I don't think you do necessarily when it's kind of like just a sharing of your life. Like people loved especially the fact that I was at uni for three years so I was showing a really realistic like "I'm still just going to be in my one room home um like you know doing another essay like it's not that exciting" and people loved that.

It was I think cause you know once a channel grows it often gets unrelatable which you know people have different arguments about that but like for three years mine had to stay relatable cause I was still within that same room writing more essays. And I think that I absolutely loved that. Like I loved that and I will cherish that as part of a my career that I really did love. I think I know that what I'm doing now is what I'm meant to be doing. I also think I'm really good at it. And I think that I feel fulfilled. Like I I genuinely feel fulfilled um most if not every day.

What are you so what are you doing now in terms of your your focus and your um I guess the question that I wanted to ask to that point is what are you as it relates to your businesses—and I I think about the same question for myself—what is the bit that you're really good at and that you think you know "That's the piece that where I consider myself to be irreplaceable?"

Yeah. So I guess the more I you know as a CEO or a founder who's moving into another area whatever it might be like you step back to work on the business rather than in the business right? So the more I step back I think the more you then realize what you're really good at cause those are the things that you keep having to jump back into. And you keep realizing that like "Yeah I could get this person to do it and I could delegate it entirely," which you know you try and do and then it keeps coming back and it's not quite right.

And for me that's marketing and branding. That's like the you know the thing. And that is I also think that a lot of successful businesses are you know founder-led businesses are the ones where I was talking to a friend about it the other day actually are the ones where the um founder is product and brand and they still have that involvement whether it's just at vision and they're briefing at the beginning of a process or whatever it might be. That is where the concentration is because that is what the brand is.

And we are in a generation where brand is everything. And so the you know the House of CBs the like what you know the yeah they're all they're all their brand. And and beyond brand they're brand bleeding through to product. And so you know it's it's good that that's my concentration as well because you know that's definitely paid off. But I also think that that's the things again and again that when I was having the discipline to step back and to actually you know do what I should be doing which is not being in the execution all the time being in the lead and being in the vision those were the ones where I realized I was like "Okay I have to be in this in some way."

Sure. Even if that's you know as I say writing a brief at the beginning of the process or mentoring that person through the first few times or being at the end of the approval process whatever it might be those are the things that I nothing will go live without like going through me not at every stage at all but there are stages whether that's the beginning the end both whatever it might be.

It sounds remarkably similar to many of the founders especially young founders that I've spoken to who have that realization like Ben who's been on this podcast as well from Gymshark. Um even like Huel Julian who runs Huel where at some point I'm speaking more about Ben here you have and to be fair myself as well cause at Social Chain I wasn't doing process finance legal all that nonsense I was doing brand marketing um where you have that realization that um that is your strong point it's also the bit that you love and all the other things the process the business stuff those were systems that were created long ago and that there are tons of very remark you know better people than you to handle those things and it becomes a case of where will my investment of my time um return the most for the business.

And I don't think people have that conversation enough cause I think young founders sometimes feel like they have to be able to do everything right?

I think that is the materialization of this hustle culture. I think a lot of that led it it's the kind of like idea of so I talk about this thing called like announcement culture which I thought was a thing but then I actually looked it up and it isn't anywhere. So I kind of defined it like defined it within the book about the essentially the idea that you know success is valued as more within this generation once it's announceable. So it's not the underlying stuff even if that was doing more. It is everything that is announceable, labelable, all of the above.

So it also comes on a micro level within our everyday. Like we like to tick things we like to see the things ticked off like we like to you know we'd probably rather see 10 things ticked off our to-do list than have actually made some real thinking progress in a concept that like whatever because that's the way it you feel more productive you feel like you've done more. And I think that's also an area where where founders, people on social media who are within businesses whatever they need to be seen to be doing everything to be validated.

And I don't think that's a personal problem I think I've had it 100% I think I still have it at certain points. But you know it's a validation through being told you're legitimate because you do things and like I'm not going to lie I don't know half of the shit that goes on in our finance meetings. And I will sit there and I will look at it and I'll look at you know and I like that's great and I need to be over it and I need to have that understanding and I'll ask the questions but I also think that the second I let that fear of illegitimacy by not doing everything leave was the second that I was actually able to be a leader because I was able to realize that actually what if if I'm better than everyone at their specific things then we've got a business that isn't as big as one person.

Like as it goes like you should hire people that are better than you at their specific disciplines. So like even if you're if you're micromanaging if you're being like a bottleneck if you're like what whatever it might be you are automatically causing a problem or not even necessarily causing a problem it might work the you know like it might go to plan but you are restricting that growth that potential that magnitude of the business because you are and it's for your ego. It is not for anything other than your ego even if that's an innocent thing even you know as I say I still do it I'm sure at points even if that's you know like you want to be said to be on this project that did really well.

And I think that as a founder you have to get to a point where that ego of course it's like a validation thing and it's a coping mechanism and you'd like to think that you always do the best for your business. But especially when we're looked at online and when you know we need to be seen that we're involved in this that and the other because otherwise people think you know like especially someone who I'm sure lots of people think I'm just the face of the business whatever. So like maybe I need to prove that I do X, Y and Z. But the second I stopped doing that was the second I as I say was actually able to do my job.

Remarkable when I was 18, 19, 20 starting the business cause I was young I'm going to be honest I definitely feared hiring really experienced people because I thought well how am I going to manage them and are they gonna they're going to figure out that I'm not that experienced and it's going to be difficult. And so I look at the first 10 hires I did and they're all like kids. I'm like "Why did I hire 10 kids?"

And then I get to a point where I'm like 21, 22 and I start Social Chain and I hire some really experienced people then they go on to hire loads of because the the people who you hire they know what their teams need to look like. I always say in our companies I'm like "The most important people are the people you have hiring all the other people," right? So and the my life became 99.9% easier when we got better people in and I I fell back and stopped letting my ego or my insecurities run the show. And the other thing which I wasn't expecting is it actually makes you look so much better when your business works!

Like I think the thing is is that like you've got to ask yourself yeah would you like the business to have the glory or would you like you to have the glory? And like then realize that if the business has the glory you still have the glory! Yeah you still have the glory, but you just have to wait a bit. Like you just have to not need to be validated every day by the fact that you were involved on that project that did well or the fact that you signed that off. I don't need to sign something off if the team is made of people who are better than me.

And like fine actually I'm sure there are people who are far better than me within branding but it's my brand. So like I you know like still that's going to be that's going to be like put in a certain direction. But I think you're completely right I mean I actually hired you know I in my final year of uni I actually had three students working for me or one student and two fresh grads and they were great! Like they were fantastic and to like and I think they're you know amazing. One of them's still working within Tala now.

And I think that I think that actually was my only option at the time. Like I couldn't afford to hire you know like any more than that and it was people who I put them through like so many tasks and I was like "I need you to be the right person cause I'm about to launch a business and do my finals at the same time so I'm going to be outsourcing." And I always say actually a lot of the reason for my success was also the fact that I was forced to outsource so early based on the fact that I was at university and Oxford had always been my dream as I say I applied twice.

Like I was not going to let it go I thought I deserved to be there and I proved when I was there that I did. And I think that that I was so committed to getting to the end of that getting what I deserved and you know and being proud of myself even though that wasn't necessarily my dream anymore that was my like childhood dream. I was so convinced that that was going to happen that I had to outsource immediately essentially like for...

And who was that first key senior hire that came into your business and how did it feel when you you know you saw the salary and you thought "Fuck!"

Yeah so so salary-wise those are more recent those are much more recent. Those are within the past actually probably right before I finished uni there was someone who we hired and I was like "Oh!" But I actually managed to get someone else to hire them. Okay. So to work on essentially what would be my account. Um so the but even then I was kind of looking at that and I was like you know like that regardless of who's hiring it affects the P&L so like you know and but then more recently there have been you know we've been hiring head of product from Sweaty Betty you know like all of these like the people and and like it's but also like those are the ones where I have to like hype myself up to go into the interview cause I'm like "You graduated from my university 20 years ago. Like I graduated to not even two years ago like like what am I going to ask you for help like do I ask you for permission to ask you questions?"

And I think that the it all ties in as well because as soon as you realize that you don't need to be that person you also realize that they're not wanting you to be that person. They want to come in and do their expertise they don't want you to be like "Oh I just want to check over this because I'm the founder or I'm the CEO." They yeah they just want to to do their job and the better they do their job the better you do their job the better you do your job the better they do their job it like it's all cyclical but it's like ego and validation and legitimacy that tie together to make this kind of big old like cauldron of like "This is probably ineffective but I have to be not even validated I don't think it's vapid I don't think it's like you know I don't think it's necessarily ego in a bad way I think it comes from like the fact that all of us have some insecurity that needs to be you know especially if you start a business young and especially if you feel like 'Oh like wow I'm in this position' like you have to be you either you're incredibly confident somehow and like completely full of yourself."

But I genuinely believe that most of us have some insecurities about.

Imposter syndrome yeah.

And so like it's all tied in I don't necessarily I don't think it's a bad thing I don't think it makes you a bad person as I said I have it a lot but I think you have to recognize it and I think that's the first thing I'd say to I actually had a fellow founder message me like two days ago and she was like "I just want to tell you what you told me about a year ago saying um like everything you know she was at the stage where I was like 'You need to be hiring people' and she was like 'But it's expensive' and I was like 'I know but they will pay for themselves' because like if you you know like even not even necessarily the right people like even if it's admin even if it's like whatever you should be doing the things that only you can do."

Whether you're self-employed whether you're like whatever it might be and you know like my my like I grew up like my dad was self-employed like all of these things and I think that you see your like there are so many different ways of working and I was thinking because I've seen people do things one way like I need to prove myself and I need to do that. Proving myself is more effective if I have a team of amazing people.

Yeah. And that's been like one of my biggest biggest lessons. I asked you then what you you know what you were really good at within the business you talked about branding and marketing so I'm going to ask you the opposite question. As the boss as Grace Beverly the CEO um what are you really bad at? Big silence.

Anything. Um careful. Yeah. Um I think I think there's probably like a we're going to bring in her PA now. Would you like to? I think there are probably a lot of things. Give me some. I think there's definitely I think one of my thing is the thing we've been talking about getting involved where I don't need to be involved. I think that's probably you know and I think I have an anxiety around that that actually you know there have been times where I haven't got involved where I probably should have because I was getting too confident with my moving away and then it just wasn't right and the product didn't didn't shift enough or whatever it might have been.

And so I think probably that's one of my main things and also only recently have I realized how much confidence I have to have in people and I I think it was actually based on talking about how shitty some of Google's rules are actually in Work Rules the book about Google working culture um he says that like one of the most important things at Google is that they encourage and empower everyone to be like their own founder. So like if they're on a project like they should be founder of that project and they should feel empowered to also like look at me and be like "No like yeah this is not how..."

And like and I think that stood with me so much because I was like "You know what?" Like the next day I emailed someone who was you know hiring someone within their team and they were like "Should we get them on this or this?" And I was like "You decide. Like you you know you decide we know the end goal any way we get there I'm happy with. You decide." Instantly saw that you know like because people also want to be empowered with that and also people often you know do much better when they're given the responsibility.

And so I think that some of that what we've just been talking about is probably one of my biggest weaknesses because I'm so terrified that something will go wrong and obviously as the you know success has many fathers and like all of the you know all of that like you have to take responsibility when it goes wrong it doesn't matter whether it wasn't you whatever it might be.

I mean something goes wrong right? Yeah. With your brand Grace Beverly is the one that they hold responsible. So intern over here says something responds to a DM whatever you've got to almost justify that even if not even justify but apologize maybe.

Yeah and it's happened. It's happened multiple times and I think that...

How do you not then go to the intern and say "What the fuck?"

Because I I think if it was enough for me to do that I think it would be much more gracious for me to just probably get rid of them. As in essentially to say like "This is not the right place cause it also you know there's a part there's an element of that that's not understanding the brand that's not understanding who we are our ethos or whatever and if it's that far out of line it's like okay well this is a mismatch here then." But I think that so my two options then both of them involve like you know being gracious in some way and one of that is fixing it if I genuinely believe that it was an honest mistake and it came across wrong or like whatever it might be then fine and I will work with them to deal with it.

And I don't believe you know maybe someone will disagree but I don't believe I have ever ever ever gone to someone and be like "How dare you! You've sacrificed this good like like you know you've done all of that!" Because also they do the work every single day to make the company great. And yeah it's frustrating, like trust me like I don't see that and think like "It's fine because last week they did a nice post or like whatever" but like there is still an element of it that's like frustrated and that's like feels like you've taken 10 steps back and is terrified that you're about to be canceled or like whatever it might be.

But there's either a decision then to decide it's a mismatch or to decide it's still a match and it was an honest mistake. Neither of those involve like ripping someone to shreds.

So how do you do sometimes though when you do get like emotion in business, it's your baby, it's it's sometimes you know anger or I don't know frustrations they do manifest themselves in business in some ways. Like I'd be lying if I said that I didn't have days where I was frustrated and people knew. I try not to be as much as I can I try to remain a little bit calm especially when it's most chaotic.

Yeah yeah. Especially in offices. I think that's particularly like we have the luxury now I'm like "Well you can't see me" like as in you know I think I I often like I think probably the near our office the like cafes they know me well because I will go in there I will take myself I will exit because I don't I think in life and in business I don't believe in I don't think I necessarily react in that way naturally um and I think to my detriment sometimes because you know sometimes you do need to just say you know "This is absolutely not right" or whatever.

But I think it's the same thing as I kind of talked about before like you know I'd rather work out the best way to deal with it. There have been times where I've picked up the phone and I've been like "What the fuck is gone wrong! Like why would you do that! Like this makes absolutely no sense like this is you know you should know better" like all of that. And they are first of all they are very few and far between. I'm not saying that I don't say that to my housemate and I'm like "How fucking dare they! I don't understand why he would do that like he knows that's not the case."

But I would I don't I don't I mean you might disagree I don't think I re like I'm not a... she's also paid to say no. So um but I genuinely I'm not a I don't think I am I think I'm the same in relationships friendships like everything. I am a walk out of the roomer and come back in half an hour and at that point I'll either shout or I'll you know but I'm not instantly kind of in that moment. Which is why I sometimes also find social media hard because I don't want to react in the moment and social media warrants an instant reaction because that's the only way that you're being true to yourself or like whatever it might be.

Like I often will think something you know when you're angry and you think something you're so angry about it and then half an hour later I won't be or I'll think it's different or I'll think someone didn't mean that or whatever it might be. And so I try and even though social media doesn't necessarily allow for that amount of kind of like discussion I do try and like you know just yeah and that's kind of in general how I deal with things. I go and spend some time by myself and if anyone talks to me...

If you are to become the person you want to become, what does that person look like? In terms of values, the way they conduct themselves, react to things?

Um I think for me it's a lot of repositioning I as I said like I think that I grew up on social media at a time where I was particularly low and therefore like a lot of that was made up with validation. And therefore like I think one of my main aims and one of my main like work what I've been working towards for the past you know year or so has been that kind of self-validation and that self-worth.

And I think that that through and through you know unfaltering self-worth is I don't know whether it's even like a reality. Like I think people have faltering views of themselves just like they do every other person. You can love someone absolutely unconditionally and you can think in one moment like "Yeah like you know why did they do that? Or like I think that's a terrible trait about them" or whatever. And I think the important thing is being able to bounce back from that into the original position or being able to consider that and still have that worth or love or whatever.

And I think so I think to become the person who I want to be I think it's you know I'm quite you know happy with where I am now and I think there are like I know what I need to improve in terms of like and I think a lot of it comes down to my own confidence and my own um like assurance in myself in order not to project that elsewhere. So yeah like in general I think that's probably one of my main main things being completely honest. I don't think it involves like money or like growth in any other way I think the first thing that I know that I need to improve on is that.

How how does one go about improving their self-validation or self-worth?

I would love to know! What if you anything? But I think in general it's just like an it's an understanding of yourself it's an understanding that you're going to fuck up it's an understanding that you're going to think one thing and do another. And I think that part of that as I say part of that was the reason you know I did move away from social media because it was like I can't have all these people telling me one thing even if it's a great thing cause it doesn't allow you to be like completely in touch with yourself and know those differences.

Yeah. Exactly.

Like even if it's the people blowing smoke up your ass like you then can't get that from yourself because you're constantly like clouded by that. If it's people hating it's the same thing. So I think that like I don't I don't necessarily know I think all it can be is being in touch with yourself and understanding that you are going to do things wrong. I think I'm very harsh on myself in the way that I don't like doing things wrong and I work very hard not to do things wrong.

And so when I do it you know it hits me hard. And I think that part of that is learning that...

Does it hit you hard?

Yeah. I think I think in general it really does. And I think that I yeah yeah I think that that's kind of one of the things that you have to then develop that kind of self-love and all of that to be able to say um okay great well like you know but I'm I'm as I've said got this like Mrs. Trunchbull living in my head who just wants one thing and one thing only and then constantly changes and it's constantly more and and I think that's an important thing to address.

Two things. The first one is Instagram. You kept Instagram?

Yes.

Why?

I like Instagram in general. I think that you know I think one of the one of the sad things that I found about kind of pivoting was that I loved what I got from things like YouTube in terms of like the community as I say that like I loved being able to share that and I was at this really weird point where I loved sharing my life but I also didn't like sharing my life because I loved you know and it was you know there are bad things and good things about everything but it was kind of like toxic in that way.

And I think that Instagram Instagram and Twitter probably both can be used in a way where you I try and use it more as like a you know I post way more than like a regular non Instagramy non-public eye whatever person would post but I don't use it as a platform for anything other than just social media. Like if that if that makes any sense at all. It's kind of you know it's pretty much my only platform and I just you know I post as and when I want. I don't need to post I don't need to come across a certain way I don't need to do stories at all one day you know whereas yeah and...

Probably the most widely there was a report out that said Instagram is probably the worst platform for mental health visually filtered visions unrealistic comparisons...

Yeah I think I think I also thought that no matter what I didn't like or what I wanted to pivot to I also owed it to myself to be able to celebrate my success in some ways. And I think that you know that however many messages I get from people saying you know I know you've moved off other platforms but please don't delete Instagram because you know X, Y, Z whatever it might be. Everyone has their people who really not necessarily really need them but really really benefit from them.

And I think that I also saw a lack of representation for women in the business space who also shout about it and I think there's a reason for it like I wouldn't encourage women to shout about it not from a my perspective but because you will be ripped to shreds and because people will have preconceptions that are different from successful men. And you know whether that's showing material things or like whatever it might be it's it's perceived as differently. And therefore like but I did think in that way that not only do I want to be able to do that I also think that you know I think I'd like to do it also to make sure you know to be able to be in that landscape.

And I think that I kind of owed it to myself also to be able to celebrate that even if I was moving away from that being my job. I don't post in any way the same as I posted when that was my job. Um I post very differently but you know it's I love it.

Have you got any like sort of big regrets in your life that you've um that might help others avoid making those same mistakes?

Um I think I mean I think my it's it's the kind of same tied in thing again. It's once again it's just anything to do with allowing other people's perception allowing focus on other people's perception of you over your focus on a your perception of yourself. Um but I don't think I'm really like a as I've said much to my detriment and to my success I've you know I don't necessarily concentrate on those maybe it is that toxic positivity thing you said or whatever I don't necessarily concentrate on those downfalls I feel like everything that's gone wrong like not getting into Oxford the first time or whatever that led to me having a really great corporate job and I was able to make some money and I was able to make you know like work in ecom for a bit you know like all of those things.

And I think that I'm very like my pick yourself back up attitude is bad in some ways but the way it's good is also allowing you to not have many regrets cause you always make something out of a bad thing and therefore it's really hard to look back and say that was shit because fine even if it didn't lead to what you thought it would. Like I had for example I had my absolute dream job lined up for April and it got canceled because of the pandemic. And you know I'm like was very lucky to be in an industry that was largely unaffected in fashion in some ways did really well.

And I was so devastated about that. Um and like maybe it will happen maybe it won't but like you know I think that that was something that couldn't be a regret couldn't be whatever but I also know that at this point I've moved so much away from social media in that time that that probably would have put me on a like blasted me in a way that actually maybe I wouldn't have been able to deal with. And I think that you know kind of the world works in mysterious ways and like maybe that wasn't right and maybe I wouldn't say yes if I got that opportunity again.

And I think that that actually just um yeah I I guess maybe it is a toxic positivity maybe it is like maybe I should you know I don't allow myself to be sad about those things when I maybe should be or I should address them but I think part of that means that when I am asked about my regrets I have kind of very little.

It's good. I mean regrets come with their their upsides right? And the value and the lessons that they teach you. So it's hard to be.

Absolutely. And I don't think it's bad to have regrets. I think acknowledging your regrets is really important to be able to move forward um maybe I block them out.

I bet you can't wait for people to to get your book right? Because it's a real labor of love right?

Yeah I mean I'm terrified at the same time um and I'm sure there will be some people...

Why?

Well I think you it's the same as a business. If you pour that much love and your soul into something if people hate it they essentially hate you. Like that's never nice it doesn't matter whether you're a bad person or whatever like it's not something you want. And I think that I think also as I say there's a lot that I've put in there that I probably wouldn't have talked about online because it's there's a delayed feedback. There's you know I don't need to hear what someone says thinks about that in that moment.

And so I you know I'm excited I'm terrified um but you know and it's also very different. Like it's different from what I've been doing. It's not entirely about business it's not entirely about you know X, Y, Z. It's it's different. It's essentially another pivot in in one way and I think that you know I'm excited and equally like you know I think about it some day like for some reason last night was one of the nights that I had kind of like constantly waking up and was like "Oh what if people don't like this bit?" and like "What if people you know..."

And I think that that's not something you control can control and like I think the only way to guarantee not having that would be to write a blank book. Which I don't have much interest in.

And is that those worries cause I'm cause I'll be honest I don't have those worries.

Yeah.

And I've spoken to other authors that you know when I talked about them being excited about their book coming out they also didn't express those worries. So I'm wondering where those have come from?

Maybe it's because I'm conditioned to having a constant feedback loop of you know whether on the businesses whether on my socials whatever it might be um or maybe it's because I'm more insecure about those feedback things. Like maybe it is but I think that it's also I care a lot. So you know I care a lot about it I care a lot about my wellbeing I care a lot about you know I and I feel like some of that you know is acknowledged that it's not necessarily even the right thing like I want to be able to write my truth and to write what I genuinely believe in and for someone to say "I don't believe in that" and like "That's wrong" or whatever.

This kind of goes back to the battle we were just talking about there. So you said you wanted to be less sort of connected to people's feedback at the same time.

Well I write in the book I write you know at the same time like there's I don't I don't obviously it's completely irrational to want to be liked by everyone and I don't want to be liked by everyone. But I think in the same way everyone who is in the public eye and sees something shit or whatever it might be you know it's just you know it's that natural reaction like it's you know. Yeah so I think but I'm I'm very very excited and I think that the reaction so far to you know the concept to the excerpts to everything has been amazing. And so I think that I should probably just be more excited about it and um yeah.

You're a you're a very um inspired entrepreneur. I noticed this when I was going through your sort of your history over the last four years. You've started several businesses you've had several ideas within those businesses and you seem like a constant stream of ideas right? I imagine that's also a problem. Yes. Right? My early investors told me they said they kept hitting me with this whip and saying "Steve stop fucking emailing us with a new idea all the time." How have you been how have you been able to distinguish between what's an idea worth pursuing and what's... cause you could you know when you get a little bit of resource and you have teams of people you could at any time be the CEO that's walking in every day and saying "We're going to do we're going to do a new thing." That can be unhelpful. I'm still guilty of it.

Yeah no and I'm sure I am um and I I'm sure I am.

How do you decide what to what to pursue?

Yeah I think I I think I use our audience a lot. I think that one of the real benefits of having a you know I'm Gen Z. So having a Gen Z led brand for essentially...

You're Gen Z?

Yeah I'm the first year of Gen Z. I'm a millennial. Um and I think one of the benefits is like everyone's constantly like "How do we market to Gen Z? How do we do all of this?" And I'm definitely not like Gen Z like don't ask me to do a TikTok dance. But I um I think that in that way I feed off our audience a lot. Like I know I'm not the most experienced at branding. That doesn't mean I'm not the best at branding for our brand. That means I'm not the most experienced. So how can I use that inexperience? How can I leverage off people you know how can I I can just ask people sometimes.

Like I can just say like "Would you be interested in this?" And I like used to be like "No cause they can only see the the final thing." And then sometimes people have said "Yes yes" and then I've been like "Actually no." But I think it's instinct I think some of it's instinct I think the more you know your brand the more you really like know your brand. And I think that lots of the time you know it's a an equal problem when other people have ideas and you're like "No but I want you to have more ideas but not that one."

Yeah yeah.

Like and I think that you know it's just a constant learning process and I'm sure I've had ide... you I have had ideas that have gone you know that just haven't gone as well as they should have. And I think that's a constant thing. I think in in fashion especially like you're going to have like a certain amount of things that don't sell as well as they should like whatever it might be. And that's just a constant reality. So I don't think it's necessarily about always picking out the best ideas I think it's about picking out the right number of ideas which is usually fewer um and executing them well.

And as we look forward to your future I'm sure there's plenty more ideas to come. Is there anything in the pipeline that one might be able to know about?

Well actually because because I've started two businesses the one question kind of press everything always asks is like "What's next? What's the next business?" And I there just really isn't going to be one for a while. Like I think people don't and I kind of don't believe myself as well but I think currently I am so maxed out. I think cause I have two businesses yeah but I also have my personal brand. So you know the book, the press, the it is a business you know. And that's a lot. If you think of the amount of days in the week.

So you're thinking like five days. I'm really strict on weekends. So hate to tell the hustle culture group but I I take weekends and I'm strict on them. Um and so five days a week split between technically three businesses. That's already a lot of time blocking. To establish what you spend your time on and where. And bearing in mind that about you know 50% of the st... not 50% 40% of the stuff I do will also be unexpected. So I think that my as I've said the kind of ethos I have about constantly constantly pushing on and doing more more more is actually detrimental when it comes to doing things well.

And so I think that you know yeah I I've had ideas and nearly started multiple businesses in this time. At one point I even wanted to do like a mini essentially influencer VC of some form. And like but actually I want to prove to myself and I think I have and I think I can continue to do so I want to prove that I can do these well and I can have patience and it's not about more more more. Cause I think some of that comes from the fact that you know when things settle it's really easy to push for more when it's just at a settling state.

And I constantly you know "Why can't I push for more within those businesses?" Like each...

Depth.

Yeah exactly. And growth and wider and more breadth and everything. And I think that's part of my plan. So it might not be new businesses but huge projects sometimes within a business sometimes take just as much as a new business. And I think that yeah sure probably if my businesses were taken away from me tomorrow I'd probably have an exe... you know like another one the next day and that's how I'm programmed and I I'm thankful for that cause you know that's definitely part of the reason why I've got to where I am. But I also think that it's been a big lesson for me to learn that more is not always more.

Yes. That's a lesson that I also learned and I then started becoming a bit of a preacher to my friends who would brag about having five businesses and me saying "One good one is much more impressive than five..."

But that's the thing I would almost be people as I've said people would say about the end of uni when I was doing you know like all of these things and I think I recognized probably too late but at some point I recognized that it wasn't about that and therefore I kind of was almost embarrassed when people were like "She's got 72 businesses" cause I'd be like "Yeah you know." I'd rather have one that was doing really well. I'm currently concentrating on two doing really well. And a third one which is my personal brand.

Which is you just yeah.

Yeah and then you know and that one will be the key to longevity for the rest of my career. But so will these two if they're done right because you don't need longevity you know if that happens. And so I think I'm lucky to be in a position where I have many different potential paths and the most productive thing I can do in that moment is decide on the path and stick to it. And I think it's fickle and I think that I can be fickle in like a hard work you know like diligent way because I just want to do more and quicker and like all of that. But actually the toughest thing I can do is just stand still and do it right.

And where does where does this end then for your businesses in your view where do you how because when we're entrepreneurs we kind of forecast you know five years' time I'll sell this or I'll do this or whatever I'll step away. What's your thinking with your businesses?

I think it depends. I think that like for example I often I'll have a view I'll say like "Okay well I'll you know maybe aim to sell this one in two years and then this one I'll keep on like and I'll you know do that forever." Um and I think then it changes then like the other one starts to get really exciting and really profitable and you're like "Well maybe I'll keep this one for longer." So I think that like I've got used to the fact that that's not you know there's probably not I've probably got used to the fact that actually there'll be a point where rather than saying "Okay in two years I'm going to do this" it'll be like "Shit I am done. Like I'm done and therefore..." and that's too late.

But I know it will be like that because I know I will push it to you know like the end or whatever it might be. But I'm I'm open I'm very open to it. I think also I'm very much at the beginning of this like Shreddy four years old Tala not even two years old yet. And I think that I'd be doing myself a disservice to kind of be it's exactly what I would do jump to the next when can I sell it when can I get all of this. But especially because when you have a business you kind of programmed to assume that by the time you've done this you're officially like you're no longer an entrepreneur you know you like sold a business for X or whatever.

And it is a success point it's a huge you know it's a huge accolade. And I think that for me I it's just about constantly keeping in touch with myself and what I want and what I want for the business as well cause I'm sure there'll be a point where I'm like "I can't do this. Yeah like you know this needs X amount of funding or this actually needs to be acquired or whatever it will be." Don't think it'll be soon but there might be a point you know and there probably will be a point that that happens.

Or where you know we've grown hugely recently I have a terrifying thought of like what if it gets too corporate at one stage and then you know I it's not a joy for me anymore and at that point yeah like I'd consider I'd very much consider that. Um so I think it's very much like an open consideration constantly for me and I think that the best thing I can do again is just not...

Yeah not overthink it.

Yeah exactly.

Have you managed to achieve balance in your life?

Oh this is the sort of whole point of the book I guess. Um but um...

You don't need the book this is...

Exactly go I'm publisher's going to be like "Fucking delete half!" Um I think I think I'm doing well at the moment. I think I wasn't doing well this time a year ago. I think that I um am probably doing well you know because for example like as I've talked about like I'm not in a relationship so maybe like that would throw it all off or whatever it might be. But I think at the moment I'm doing it well and probably too much of a focus on work but that's what balance looks like to me at the moment. It's not 50/50 it's not like a tipping set of scales it's like this is what's added up.

Sure. Are you happy?

Oh yeah. I'm definitely happy. I think I'm I think I'm particularly happy at the moment cause I feel like I'm somehow simultaneously living my early 20s life whilst also being you know being in this amazing position. And that for me that was the main thing I wanted because I just was you know this more more more thing was like "You don't need to be acting like you're 40. Like you you know" and so I've really tried to maintain that even though it's strange for me to be in my position and living with three of my friends in my house or whatever it might be like I I feel like I'm having that and I feel like that's that was a real you know that was a big thing for me and I'm I'm you know happy that it doesn't necessarily have to be that I'm in like some sick high-rise apartment by myself with like X, Y and Z or whatever um and that for me is my happiness.

Thank you. It's been wonderful speaking to you. I find you so inspiring and you know people have said to me as I've like gone through my journey that I'm like a wise head on shoulders or whatever but you like really really are and...

Oh thank you well you are!

No but you like really are. Like you're 23 I remember when I was 23 I was still largely um an idiot and and you seem to have figured out you know?

I could be convinced.

No I know but it's like the level of I'd say self-awareness right? And I can see as you're speaking in the way that you answer questions you're also really you you really are trying to appreciate nuance. That's something it took me a long time to do right? So I thought the world was the way I saw it. "If you don't work hard then you are inferior" right? And then but I can see you're being very considered in how you speak and appreciating nuance and I think that's a trait of someone that's that's A been had their life accelerated in the public eye or through you know pressure of running businesses but just someone that has very wise um head on their shoulders and you're inspiring as hell.

Thank you.

And you're a lovely human being so I want to thank you for for coming here today and giving me your time. And um when when can we buy your book? April, I know it's you can pre-order now.

April the 14th, 15th, thank you Lexi. I always...

April the 15th. Yeah. I know mine is March so...

But you can pre-order now! Exactly. 20-something. Oh yeah well the the pre-order is... Dom when when is my book out? March 25th. We'll cut it so it looks like we got it right first time! Our publishers... Well you can pre-order both now. Amazing. Maybe so many people will pre-order the same ones that you know when Amazon assigns like a specific bundle. Oh yeah. People who bought this also bought you know. Yeah exactly. And they're like "You can get these two together for this." I think that's the aim from this.

Do go and check it out because I've I know how much you put into it personally and sometimes I sit down with people and I know they had some ghostwriter create the whole thing but speaking to you on and off camera I know how much you've poured into it. And when when people do that I think they create really remarkable pieces of work and unique thoughts. So thanks again for coming on. You're a really really special person and I'm I'm honored to have you here. Thanks.

Thank you.

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