Gavin Newsom, The Next President Of The US? "America's At Breaking Point & Trump's Playing Dangerous Games!"

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Epstein and Trump were close. Sorry, Donald—just a fact. When Elon Musk tweets Trump’s on the list, and a few days later there is no list, it begs questions. They dangled this in order to get votes, and they lied to people. We are only six months in, and the vandalization he has done pushing the boundaries on the rule of law… this is darkness.

Really? Because I hear this every election cycle.

No, it’s a dangerous game. America is struggling and I really worry about our democracy. Trump is likely to lose power unless they can rig the game.

Governor Gavin Newsom, are you going to try and become the next President of the United States? Who is the real Gavin Newsom?

I think most people see me as a slick guy who grew up with a trust fund, but I didn’t come from any wealth. My mom was a single mom working two or three jobs. She rented out her own bedroom and sacrificed everything for two kids. I was going nowhere academically, but she never gave up on me.

As your political career started to accelerate, she was diagnosed with breast cancer.

She was in so much pain and suffering, she decided to do an assisted suicide. I was holding her hand as she took her last breath. Everything that defines the best of me—grit, hard work—is reflected in her. That led to me sitting here with you as Governor of California.

There is always conflict between you and Trump.

I think he enjoys sparring with me. I know he thrives on it. But I’d be lying if I didn’t say that every time I have a conversation, it’s unbelievably cordial. He says, “If you need anything, call me,” including the night before he quote-unquote “federalized” the National Guard. But then he calls me "New-scum." He wants to take me out.

Do you think he’s going to try and stay in power?

I don’t think I’m exaggerating, but when people close to Donald Trump send the Governor of California a hat that says "Trump 2028," they’re not kidding around.

Just give me 30 seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say: The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. It means the world to all of us. This really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn’t have imagined getting to this place.

But secondly, it’s a dream where we feel like we’re only just getting started. If you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app. Here is a promise I’m going to make to you: I’m going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can, now and into the future. We’re going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to, and we’re going to continue to do all the things you love about this show. Thank you.

Governor Gavin Newsom, can you quite believe your life? You are running one of the most consequential states in America—arguably the most consequential state in America—but also, I read that it’s the fourth highest GDP in the world now. You are always in the headlines; there is always conflict between you and Donald Trump. I just wanted to start with this question: Can you believe your life?

If you had talked to my ten-year-old self, this is impossible. I couldn’t even have dreamt it. I don’t know if it was a dream or a nightmare at ten. I mean, I’m not sure this is what I wanted at ten, or even at twenty or thirty.

I know you’re going to continue to shoulder-roll what I’m going to say, but many of the bookmakers and the odds have you as being the next President of the United States in 2028. I’m going to throw that out there. I know you’ll tell me "California first," but...

Well, that’s surreal. It’s ridiculous. It is something that even in those higher moments—not low moments—where I may have had a little bit more confidence, a million years would never have imagined that I would be at this moment. That creates a lot of humility and a lot of grace around that. The idea that you’re even in the conversation—I know that sounds rote and cliché, like a "humble brag"—but the fact that I’m in the conversation is extraordinary. Is it a reality? I don’t know. Fate will determine that.

I totally understand that. But I want to get clear on one thing: you would be honored to play the role as President of the United States if and when that opportunity called or presented itself?

I don’t know about "playing the role," but if the moment meets you and you meet the moment—if you can express with congruency the "why"—and you can do it without the pretense and the posturing, and you can do it with authenticity, and you truly believe that you add value against others that may be lined up? Yeah.

But I won’t go through the motions. I don’t need to be something to do something. For me, I’ve got to feel it. It’s got to be in my core, my soul. It’s got to be a burning need and desire to be accountable and to reflect the moment and the aspirations and the dreams of millions and millions of people, and to have enough confidence that you feel you can deliver in that respect.

Do you think you could deliver in that respect?

Increasingly so, which is strange. I don’t know that I could have said that a few years ago. I mean that. I feel like things for me have radically changed, and we can get into why. I’ve gone through—they’re working on the seventh recall against me right now. I went through a recall process. I’ve been on the receiving end of a national effort to try to do everything to undermine what I’m doing.

Going up against Donald Trump and Trumpism, and the surround-sound of these propaganda networks 24/7—I’m more resolved now in an intense way. I’m discovering myself in this process. I’m on the other side of where I ever expected to be, even a year ago. I feel deeply accountable, deeply responsible, and deeply motivated. I don’t know where that takes me, but I know I have a responsibility over the next 18 months, and I’m going to run the 110-yard dash. I’m not going to run the 90-yard dash on the way out of here. That’s what I know. I’ve got a "sell-by" date, and I’m going to put everything on the line.

Let’s get into it then, in terms of your early context and your childhood. I think you have to understand that to understand the person and the complexities of the person I'm sitting in front of today. Can you give me the specifics of your earliest context?

It was shaped like so many people watching. How many of us—over half of us—had similar experiences? I was born to a 19-year-old who was pregnant with her firstborn, me. A few years later, she’s on her own with two kids. She came from no wealth, no real privilege. Her father committed suicide; he was a prisoner of war coming out of World War II.

She struggled with her own identity and her own confidence. She struggled raising two kids. My father left us, but not in disgrace. He was an extraordinary figure but an elusive figure growing up. He marked so much of my early childhood as a sort of longing, trying to connect. But the anchor, the rock, was this rockstar single mom. Everything that defines the best of me and the worst of me—this notion of grit, hard work, that you’ve got to manifest because nothing is going to be handed to you—is reflected in her.

At the same time, a lot of the anxiety and fear, and the sense of loneliness... she was a very lonely person. Tessa passed away almost two decades ago. I’m now older than she was when she passed away. I never fully appreciated her to the degree I do now. As a father and looking back at a mother struggling with not only herself—trying to be a good mother, have a career and a life—but also struggling to support her kids and support a kid, in this case me, who was struggling in every way. Particularly with pretty severe learning disabilities and self-esteem. I never fully appreciated her sacrifice.

Give me the color on the learning disabilities. Someone looks at you—someone so accomplished in both business and in politics—and you say that you had learning difficulties as a child.

I was the guy in the back of the class. I was the guy with my head down. I was the guy soaking wet, sweating, shaking underneath—if not physically shaking—desperate not to be called on in the class. I’m someone who still can’t read a speech. You’re in the wrong business, I think, in politics if you can’t read a speech. I can do a teleprompter, but you’ll never see me going up and down looking at a speech. I can’t.

I still struggle to read. If I read, I have to underline everything. I have to organize everything through not only underlining but highlighting, and then I go back and re-read what I underlined in order to understand it. Once I understand it, boy, I understand it. Then it becomes part of who I am, which is the other side of dyslexia. But I was a guy who was going nowhere academically. I was just that kid. I had a sister who was the exact opposite. Where I’m getting a 960 on the American SAT, she was getting a 1380. It was easy for her. Everything was easy for her. That contrast and the anxiety that came from that contrast, and the struggle my mom had trying to work with me—that marked so much of my memories and decades of my life.

And at that early age, sub-ten, what did you think of yourself? What was your self-perception?

The thing that is most indelible in my life was my mother struggling with me. I’ll never forget it. I don’t recall if I responded to her at the time, but it’s marked half a century of my life. She said, because I was giving up and I couldn’t read this chapter or whatever it was, she said, "It’s okay to be average."

I think about that all the time. I forgive her, I think, for that, because she was struggling with me. But that’s a hell of a thing to say to a kid. I think she was just saying, "It’s okay. You don’t have to be your sister. You’re not your dad. You’ll never be that person." I loved her deeply and I’m here because of her, but that shaped a lot of the early "that person." It shaped who I’ve become because I’ve done everything in my power to overcompensate for the struggle and for that mindset where I could have easily believed that and I could have easily become that.

In terms of money in the home, I sometimes think about my own childhood and how money was almost this other person. We talk about attachment styles—avoidant, anxious, secure—and I think of money in the same way. In homes, it’s a person. Sometimes it’s distant and never there; sometimes it’s causing the argument. What was money in your household? What was the relationship you had formed with it?

I had an interesting experience with money. We didn’t come from any wealth, but my father—his relationships were attached to extraordinary wealth, an abundance of wealth. His closest friends in the world were some of the richest families in the world. And while he didn't have a tremendous amount of wealth himself, he led a very wealthy lifestyle.

Meanwhile, my mom and I and my sister were there doing our Swanson's frozen food. We’re doing our Kraft macaroni and cheese. But money was always the source of the stress. He didn’t have much to give her, and she didn’t have much period. She was working two or three jobs. When I say two or three jobs, I mean literally two or three jobs.

We had guests always living at the house. I didn't understand what guests living at the house meant—she moved out of her own bedroom to rent out the bedroom. If you wanted something, I had a paper route, I worked for Jeff Hicks Construction. If you wanted a basketball hoop, you were going to have to work for it. There was nothing handed, nothing given. She’s grinding, she’s working as a part-time waitress. So I got into the restaurant business; I was a busboy. There are some moments that changed my life there that I’ll never forget.

Money was the source of stress, but also some evil in the context of seeing the abundance with people I knew, with trust funds, where the relationship to money made them lose their motivation. They lost their purpose, their meaning, their mission. So when I started getting into business, it was never about making money. It was about making a difference. It was about building something, a brand. It was about adding some value. That pursuit created a mindset where the businesses actually really thrived because it wasn't about the money; it was about something more important. It was bigger than that. My relationship to money in that respect really became a gift, a guide in terms of my entrepreneurial pursuits. Dyslexia certainly was the greatest gift in relationship to the entrepreneurial suits. And that led to this—led to me sitting here with you as Governor of California in politics.

And when did you find out you had dyslexia? Because I read that your mother didn't tell you.

She didn't tell me. I think about this because I’ve got a couple of kids that are struggling, and we made the mistake with one of them to tell them, and now he uses it as a crutch. She never wanted it as a crutch. She never told me. I found out about it because I was home early one day, came back from school, and I don't know why I ended up in her room. I’m looking, she’s got a little desk, and there’s a file open. I’m looking through files and then I saw the word "dyslexia." I’m like, "What the hell is this?" I remember she got home and I said, "Mom, what is this?" And she goes, "Put that away." I said, "What is it?" She said, "I didn't really want to talk to you about it. You've been struggling..." I said, "I know I can’t read, I’m stupid, Mom." She said, "No you're not stupid, we're working through all that." She just didn't want to create the stigma. She didn't want me to use it as a crutch, as an excuse.

I appreciate that because it wasn’t an excuse. I wasn't a victim. Decisions, not conditions, determine our fate and future. This notion that we can shape things—I wasn’t stigmatized in that respect, so I couldn't make excuses around it. I had to work around it. I had to work through it. I think that was the path she chose, and I’m in many ways grateful that she did.

Were you bullied by other children?

Yeah, we had Baltimore Street. I told the President this too—speaking of Trump. We were talking a few weeks ago and he goes, "Hey, this 'New-scum' thing..." because he calls me New-scum, Gavin New-scum. He goes, "Pretty original, right?" I said, "Mr. President, it's not particularly original." And he goes, "What do you mean? What do you mean?" I said, "Well, there was the bully on Baltimore Street in Corte Madera, California, who used to call me 'New-scum.'" He goes, "Ah, well, you know, whatever." I was like, God, he was seven, eight, or nine. You’re 79, Mr. President. I told him that too, and he moved immediately off on another topic.

Yeah, I was the bowl-cut guy. The hair, the Dutch boy look. You remember the old Dutch boy stuff? Sort of an American iconic American brand. It was easy to see why I might have been bullied.

I’ve got a picture here if you look...

Oh, look at me back then. Isn't that great? So you get the haircut, you get the vibe. This is my father trying to insert... so, Irish Catholic family. My dad went to Catholic schools, and so by definition, I went to Catholic school. My mother, who loved the sailor outfits, knee-high black socks... yeah, you're likely to get bullied going to the bus.

When I hear your story and the context you grew up in with your mother, with the bullying, with the challenges at school, with the dad that’s away—and I know the stats around young boys that grow up in particular that don't have a father figure at home—for me, that's a perfect recipe for small-t, maybe big-t trauma in some capacity. Later in your life, you talked about having challenges with alcohol.

Oh, yeah. No.

And I wondered if that picture is part of the same picture, which is putting the mask on, various forms of escapism?

100%. Well, look, my grandfather who took his life was an alcoholic. My mother struggled a little bit, and it was more self-medicating. For me, I started discovering that as well. Of course, look, I got in the wine business. So I was immediately attracted to the business side of it. Opened a wine store right out of college, opened a number of restaurants, had seven or eight restaurants, have four wineries as I speak today. Wine became ubiquitous in my life. It was also my connection back to my dad, which is a whole other journey.

And you started that business in 1992, which was the year I was born. And as I sit here 32 years later, the business still exists. You've placed it into a trust.

It still exists. It grew—about 22 or 24 businesses at peak, about a thousand employees. It came from that one business. I was the only full-time employee for almost two years. I’ll tell you, just the greatest training for politics and life—just opening your own business, a small business. Those were some special days. Went from that to a restaurant up the block, a few years later a hotel, a winery, now four wineries. We had five or six hotels and nine restaurants at peak, and the businesses are still around.

I was reading that you had this sort of scheme where you gave employees $500 for a "Magical Moment Award"?

Well, it was a Failure Award.

A Failure Award.

And then it became—my sister took over because I had gotten into politics. She said, "I don’t like this failure framework." I said, "Well, it’s the best. I love failure. I’m good at it. Dyslexics are the best at it. I mean, there’s nothing linear about our lives. It’s 'fail forward fast.' Miss 100% of the shots you don't take."

So you were giving employees $500 if they failed?

I had a great, just a very brief example. I had a little hotel up in Squaw Valley, Lake Tahoe area. A lot of mosquitoes during the summer months. It's an old motel built for the Winter Olympics, the 1960 Winter Olympics. Built in 1959 for the delegates. It was supposed to be torn down. It was sort of patched together and we held it together, but it had no air conditioning. So you’d keep the doors open, you'd keep the windows open, but in the summer, the mosquitoes came in and drove the guests crazy.

So we had this night clerk—you know those crazy night clerks? He was getting complaints all the time about the mosquitoes. He, on his own, decided one day to go before he went to work—got in at 11 o’clock at night—and he bought a bunch of catfish at the store because there’s a bunch of ponds around the business. He figured that’s where all the mosquitoes are starting, so the catfish will eat the larvae of the mosquitoes and he’d solve the problem. He just, on his own, decided to buy a bunch of catfish and dumped them in the ponds all around the hotel.

Well, about four in the morning, this engineer calls me—gruff guy—he says, "The raccoons had a feeding frenzy and ran through the hotel because the doors were open with a bunch of flying fish in their mouths and fish everywhere!" Ludo said, "You’ve got to fire that son of a bitch, this goddamn idiot." And I started laughing. I went up there the next morning, met with him, and I said, "This is a magical—you tried to solve a goddamn problem." And we created the Failure Award. I gave the biggest screw-up every single month a bonus. At the end of the year, we’d put them all together—January screw-up, February screw-up—and we’d have the "Failure of the Year" award. Did that for years until my sister said we’ll call it the "Magical Moment" award.

But it was about initiative. Taking initiative, taking responsibility, taking ownership, trying new things, seeing what works, iteration. Entrepreneurial mindset. It’s not linear. It’s thinking creatively, outside the box. It’s what a dyslexic, by definition, has to do. And that’s what I thought a successful business needed to do. It literally empowered our employees—they loved it because they felt seen and heard.

And safe, I guess.

And safe! Because they were like, as long as I do it—no one’s jumping off cliffs here, we’re not encouraging recklessness—but risk-taking. It literally allowed the business not just to survive, but to start to thrive in ways I could never have imagined.

I think that’s an important lesson to so many business owners, especially in these changing times where everything is moving so quickly with AI and technology, that most people are incentivized just to do business as usual to protect our position if we’re successful or to prolong convention. Businesses that adopt that approach clearly have an edge in these rapidly changing times.

No, and look, back to just—I remember there was a book Tom Peters wrote called *The Pursuit of Wow*. If there was one book that just hit me in the core, that expressed everything I wanted to become, he talked about "Hire the smile, train the skill." About finding these superstar leaders and developing owners with your leadership team.

He talked about the Ritz-Carlton at the time gave literally cash to the folks that were cleaning the rooms and gave them the ability to use the cash as needed to solve a problem for their customers. They created ownership with frontline employees that were undervalued or devalued. He talked about diversity as a business essential. With all the anti-woke, anti-DEI stuff we’re dealing with in the United States of America, from a business perspective, there’s a business imperative to advance diversity.

It was Peters decades ago that really created that mindset for me in the business. Diversity broadly defined in every way, shape, or form. The business became the pursuit of "wow," of awe, of surprise, of iteration, of daring energy. So the core ideology just kept growing in that space. Restaurants, hotels, wineries, and audacious, adventurous people that wanted to build a brand, build something that was special. It wasn’t about money; it was about the pursuit of meaning and purpose.

So why did you leave that and do politics?

Two things happened. I got a phone call—I was running the wine store, closing it up, doing bookkeeping, accounting. The warehouse was in my apartment. One night right before I’m closing up, this guy runs into the store, very nervous guy. He’s like, "Can you help me? What’s a good champagne? I’ve got to get called." I was like, "Thank you," put it away, he's like, "It's good." He goes, "Can you wrap it?" I said, "Yeah, got it wrapped." Says, "Thank you, man." About 30 minutes later, the guy comes back. I’m like, "Oh damn, like I screwed up or something." But he’s got this girl with him. He’s knocking on the door and I open the key back up. He comes in, he goes, "I just want to introduce you to my fiancée." And I said, "Wow." He goes, "Well, your champagne—I just asked her to marry me down the block at the Palace of Fine Arts. We loved the champagne and I just wanted to say thank you. You were so nice to me." I remember literally sitting there crying after he left. Like, that’s everything. This is business, man. It’s not a transaction, it’s relationships. Talk about moments, magic, man. That’s it. To your point, I thought this is it. This is my bliss. I’m going to just keep doing this forever. And then I got a damn call from the Mayor of San Francisco.

Can I just ask you on that question: When that guy came in with his fiancée, why was it so meaningful to you? I can literally still see the emotion in your face some 20 years later.

Because what I did had meaning. It mattered in a way I never thought. I thought it was a transaction. Thought he was buying something, I was selling something. Wasn’t that, man. It was marking a really important moment in his life. Business changed after that. It wasn’t business. It was just a different proposition.

And then I get a phone call and screw everything up. Willie Brown says, "Hey, you've been, you know, you just opened this store and I've been reading you were complaining getting those permits, it was taking too long..."

He’s Willie Brown.

Willie Brown, the Mayor of San Francisco, former Speaker of the California Assembly, one of the most dynamic, one of the most extraordinary politicians in California history, I would argue American history. I don't say that lightly. Some of the world’s great leaders will identify Willie Brown as one of the most transformative political leaders. And so there were a couple articles in the paper about me bitching about permits and parking or something. And he calls me, he goes, "Newsom. It's Willie Brown." I’m like, "Oh, Mr. Mayor." He goes, "Hey, come on down next Wednesday. I’m going to put you on the Film Commission." I’m like, "This is amazing. I’m going to be on the Film Commission." I’m 20-something years old, got a wine store, about to open a restaurant I was working on, and now he’s put me on the Film Commission.

I go down to City Hall that next Wednesday. It's a group of 20 or 30 people, he's swearing a bunch of people onto commissions, and he says, "And Gavin Newsom, opened a wine store down the block, blah blah blah," goes, "the new Chair of the Parking and Traffic Commission." I’m like, "I thought I was going on the Film Commission." Literally didn't tell me or anyone. I didn't even know what "Chair" meant. All of a sudden, 26, 27 years old, I’m now the President of San Francisco’s Parking and Traffic Commission. He just randomly put me in that position. Inspiration, desperation. I didn't know what the hell I was doing. And that was how my political career began—literally that phone call, that appointment, not to film, but parking and traffic. That marked a pretty significant moment in hindsight in my life.

And that was a pivotal moment in your trajectory because you were on course to continue being an entrepreneur probably for the rest of your life. So give me the whistle-stop between that moment when he places you in this role to here.

I just put my head down, I learned everything I could, back to the humility of not knowing what you don't know and recognizing, you know, success leaves clues and you can learn from everybody. I started listening, learning from people, absorbing. I applied myself as Parking and Traffic Commissioner so much so that nine months later, there was a vacancy on our Board of Supervisors, our City Council. Willie Brown goes, "You know what? You've been doing a pretty decent job here, man. I’m going to give you a shot."

So I was a relatively young guy, now as the entrepreneur business person on our City Council/Board of Supervisors. I just hit the ground running. I opened—by that time I opened a few extra businesses. It was a part-time job, but I started to apply myself a little bit more full-time. I had to put together a management group to start managing the business and started to apply myself more as a supervisor. Spent almost seven or eight years doing that. As a relatively young guy, 33, 34, Willie Brown was termed out as mayor and there was an open mayor’s seat. At 33, I announced, "Why the hell not? Give it a shot. Miss 100% of the shots you don't take." Was pulling third or fourth and decided to go for it and ran for Mayor of San Francisco.

You became Mayor of San Francisco, had a big impact while you were Mayor of San Francisco. One of the things people remember you a lot for is your attitude towards same-sex couples and the Defense of Marriage Act, where you took a quite controversial stance at the time by enabling—I believe it was same-sex couples in the state to get their marriage licenses.

It was 2004 and my party, the Democratic Party, was not... people were not enthusiastic, weren't even promoting—in fact, they were almost universally opposed to same-sex marriage. I had an experience in Washington D.C. Nancy Pelosi, the Speaker of the House, invited me as a new mayor to listen to George Bush give his final State of the Union speech. I was up there in the rafters listening to George Bush give his speech. In the speech, he’s talking about the Iraq War, he’s talking about a lot of interesting things, and he ends with, "It's time for a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage." Everyone starts applauding. The people around me are applauding.

I walked back out and you had to put your cell phones away—early cell phone days. We’re all in line waiting to get our cell phones back. I remember the couple right next to me, as I’m waiting in line after the speech, goes, "That was a hell of a speech the President gave. I’m so sick and tired"—I’ll never forget these guys said—"I’m so sick and tired of the homosexual agenda." I literally turned. "Homosexual agenda"—it was pejorative. All I thought about is, "Man, I want to introduce myself as Mayor of San Francisco." I didn't say a word. I hadn't even thought about marriage equality. When I ran for mayor, no one asked me about it. They were talking about domestic partnerships. It was literally that moment that I walked outside, used that cell phone, called my Chief of Staff and said, "We need to do something about it." He goes, "Well, what do you mean?" I said, "I’m going to come back tomorrow, man. Let’s do something."

I had just got elected mayor. Made the decision then, and it unfolded a few weeks later, to start marrying same-sex couples. We married Phyllis Lyon and Del Martin; they’d been together almost 50 years. You talk about faith, love and devotion, constancy, what marriage should be about—they were denied the ability to marry for only one reason: they were a same-sex couple. We decided to test the law and was told that people found out and they were not going to allow us to move forward with this marriage. We were going to do a simple ceremonial marriage and then file a lawsuit. Courts opened at nine o'clock; they were going to do a temporary restraining order. I realized I was Mayor; I could open City Hall earlier.

So we opened City Hall at eight. We married Phyllis and Del, and at nine o’clock the courts opened and we waited for the decision. The judge said, "There’s no irreparable harm. There’s no reason to have a temporary restraining order," which meant that we could keep marrying same-sex couples, which was not what we had imagined. Fast forward, what we call the "Winter of Love" in San Francisco, not the "Summer of Love"—February 2004. 4,036 couples from 46 states and 8 countries came to San Francisco to live their lives out loud, to say "I do" in this magical experience that just shook me to the core and changed my relationship to my party. They were pissed. They were furious.

The Democratic Party?

Yes. And I got an earful from all of them. People I adored, revered, the same people, the same people said—it’s just this rote advice that everyone gives—"Whatever you do, just do the right thing, do what you think is right." I remember them: "Hey young man, congrats on being Mayor, just do what you think is right." You do what you think is right? "How the hell—who the hell are you?" I remember those: "Who the hell are you to do what you just did?" It shook my confidence in this whole racket of politics. Like, what am I doing? What did I just do? But it was a hell of a first impression as Mayor to do that. That sort of started my political life.

When I overlap the dates here, you won your mayoral race in 2003. Your mother was getting sick in the years in the lead-up to that. She was diagnosed with breast cancer.

Yep.

So you’re contending with the woman in your life who's clearly had the most impactful role on shaping who you are and being there for you when the odds were against you and when no one else was. In the lead-up, and as your political career starts to accelerate, she is suffering with breast cancer.

Yep. And also suffering with her son being in politics. She did not want me to go in politics. In fact, the biggest regret she had is that I was walking down the path that my father was interested in that led to their divorce in the first place. He pursued politics and lost in two elections for State Senate and for County Supervisor—ironically, the seat that I held. Lost both races, was in debt, was humiliated, defeated. Said he had a breakdown and left. That's when they got divorced.

She saw me walking down his path. She loved seeing me in business. She ended up working for me as our bookkeeper and she saw my passion in the business. She said, "Why the hell you getting in politics? Don't do this to yourself." And she literally on her deathbed said, "Just please don't do this. Don't keep doing this." She was really upset that I ran for Mayor. Something I think about. There are days where I’m like, "She told me so." When you’re sitting there facing a recall, you’re like, "Told you so."

A recall, for anyone that doesn't know, is...

They just, in the middle of... you get a four-year term and two years later they say "F-you" and they get a petition and try to get rid of you. I faced that just second time in a half-century in California. I defeated it overwhelmingly, but that was a hell of a thing to experience and to see the nationalization of that recall. I mean, the entire Republican Party came out to try to take me out politically. And you think about what your mom said? Like, man, she may have been right.

When did you realize that your mother wasn’t going to make it with her breast cancer?

It was when it... she went through so often is the case, she fought back, it was in remission, and then boom, it hit again and it metastasized. She did—it was... I’ll tell you, this I will never, ever, ever, ever recommend for anyone, and this is just my own personal experience. She called me, left a voicemail. Imagine getting this voicemail.

I was very busy doing all this stuff, and obviously not attentive enough to her. She was making the point. She goes, "Hi honey, it’s your mother. I know you haven’t seen me in a while, but next Thursday I won’t be around, so you may want to come next Wednesday because it will be my last day." Literally left a voicemail like that. I called my sister, "What the hell is this?" She goes—she’s crying—she said, "She just told me she’s going to do an assisted suicide because it’s so bad." She left a voicemail.

And so that next week, I was there. My sister and I were in her room. Doctor comes in, gives her some what turned out to be OxyContin, I remember like early on, "What are these pills?" She had to take those an hour before he got there. She takes them. God as my witness, we’re going through photos like this, man. It’s all she wanted to see. All the old photos of us growing up. We’re sitting there on—my sister on the left, I’m on the right, my mom there, took these pills, waiting for the doctor, and she’s going through all these old photo albums of us growing up, talking about these moments. Come on, man.

Yeah. So... yeah. But wanted to be there for her. Doctor comes in and administers and she starts gasping. My sister runs out. The doctor had already left and I was like—she’s gasping for air and I’m just sitting there and holding her hand as she... and her last breath. I just sat there. My sister—no one walked in. I felt like for a day, I felt like for hours, but it was just probably 10 minutes. Before someone finally came in. Just sitting there with my mother who passed away and not realizing that moment what it represented, what it ultimately meant. I regret that was hard. I don’t... being there for assisted suicide...

By the way, I’m proud we changed the law in California. That was probably done illegally. I don’t even want to know, and if you want to come after me, come after me. She needed to do it. She was in so much pain, suffering. Now it’s legal to do that, but it wasn’t at the time when she did it. So that was a moment. I just became mayor. It was back to just making stupid mistakes, man. You’re brand new mayor, you’re overwhelmed, you’re trying to figure yourself out. You lose your mom. No excuse. I was in a marriage that was going south.

What did she say to you when she—I had no idea that you sat there as she was administered the drugs that took her life. What were those conversations? What do you say to someone in such a scenario where it’s the last conversation you’re having?

It was... you know, you say the perfunctory things, "Just know how much you meant to me, how much I love you," and all that. And she—all she cared about is just, "Don’t forget me." She said that. That was the last word she said. God as my witness. "Don’t forget me."

And one of the things I’m most proud of, my sister, we started through our PlumpJack—we started a foundation. So every year we raise money for cancer research in my mom’s name. And we’ve never forgotten her. But she was someone who could have easily been forgotten, man. She just sacrificed everything for two kids. She left us her character, experience, no money, nothing. She just struggled her own life and just gave it all to us. Those are... and we all have people in our lives like that. What a gift. I was blessed.

Were there any words unsaid? Sometimes once people have moved on and you mature as an adult and a man, you see things differently and you...

I mentioned earlier being perhaps way too candid. I imagine after this is over, my folks will say "What the hell were you..." Who cares? Life’s too short. But when I said, when she talked about being average, I didn’t confront her on that. That just—that was for me perhaps more than her. It wasn’t about me in this moment. It was about just, you know, it was so important for her to walk through all these memories. And again, that’s what it’s about, man—memories, moments. It’s about nothing else.

When you later won the race to become Governor of California, do you think about her? Do you wish she could have seen that?

Oh, yeah. I wish she could see my four kids. Come on. Yeah. Yeah. I got sworn in as Governor of California. My wife’s there and we’ve got a three-year-old, he’s got his pacifier and he’s got his blanket. In the middle of my speech, he runs up. I’m giving the speech, stressed out again—I don’t read speeches, so it was a read I had to read, so I’m like, I can’t look because I’m going to lose my sight on the teleprompter. My son runs up. My wife was nervous for him to run up on stage because it was like, this is a big damn deal. And he comes right up, grabs me, and everyone kind of like is moving around the audience. I’m like, "What do I do?" And I just instinctively lifted him. He put his head right on the side and started to fall asleep. I read the speech with my son. No one remembers a damn word I said. I don’t remember a word. Everyone remembers what it felt like. All I thought about is that moment, if my mom was around to see that. It wasn't the Governor. It was the parent. Sorry, man. It’s unbecoming, forgive me. But that—I wish she was around for them.

Why?

Because... well, I wish I could thank her for being an extraordinary parent. I never did. I told you I took her for granted. I never knew how hard it was until I had my own kids. But I think she’d be so proud of our nine-year-old Dutch, 15-year-old Montana. I think she’d be proud of me in that respect. I think she wanted me to be happy. She wanted me to be a good husband. I got this incredible rockstar wife, Jennifer. I got these four unbelievable kids, man. Just filled with joy. I struggle to be a better parent, husband, politics, stress... but that’s all she wanted for me.

When you're in the public eye—as I guess I kind of am now because people watch me a lot—there's always this balance between what people see, which is a very two-dimensional thing, and then there's the imperfect messy home life, which I contend with every single day. Even on the way here this morning, I’m like, "I’m going to be late for Gavin Newsom because my girlfriend’s having period cramps." I’m like, "I don’t want to leave my girlfriend, but I need to go, I’m going to be late!" And I’m trying to... and then we had the alarms going off in the house and all the lights flickered because we just moved in, as you know. Just craziness. And then you look at my phone and there's business problems and there's my family problems going on, and then I come here and I interview you. I feel like I got in your way. No, but obviously it’s a great, as you know, it’s a tremendous honor. But it’s just—I say that because there is a behind-the-scenes. And the behind-the-scenes is not as perfect as the exterior. You were alluding to this season of your life being filled with imperfection. Tell me about the human imperfection that was taking place behind the scenes as you were excelling professionally.

I think there was a magazine—*The Economist*—did a headline said "Young Man in a Hurry: He Wants to Be Governor, Seriously." And it wasn't a question mark; it was more like, "he’s serious, he actually thinks he could be governor" was kind of a snarky headline and piece. But the headline struck me: "Young Man in a Hurry." That’s who I was. Was the entrepreneur, I’m just trying to make things happen, trying new things, seeing what works, having a little bit more success than failure, learning from mistakes, moving on.

Move pretty quickly at a relatively young age—I mean, I was I think one of the youngest mayors in San Francisco history in my 30s. And losing my mom, and a relationship—my first wife—it ended extraordinarily well, she’s—I have nothing negative to say, etc.—but it ended. That was embarrassing, you know? It’s in the public. Everything’s in the public. I’m growing up in the public. I’m growing up with these bright lights.

How did you fuck up?

I just... I just got... I wasn’t situationally aware. I wasn’t emotionally mature in terms of... I remember a good friend of mine, Mimi Silbert, who’s just a rockstar, got my act together. She is the one that got me to get my act together. She goes—I said, she goes, "You’re the Mayor of San Francisco." I said, "Yeah, I know." She goes, "Well, then start acting like it." I said, "What are you talking about?" I said, "When I go into a room, I don’t need to be in the front row." She goes, "You need to be in the front row." I said, "I don’t need to. I don't like being in the front row. I don't need to be right..." She says, "You’re the fucking Mayor! And you’ll be in the front row and you’ll have people watch you in the front row because that’s what they want from their Mayor." I’m like—I remember saying this and like, "What? I don't understand." I was like, "No, I’m good." She says, "It’s not about you."

I said, "Well, no, I don't need that. I like the job. That’s not part of the job. That’s like the press conference side." And it was such a—she literally had such a—I remember sitting there dinner with her at Delancey Street when she said that to me, and it sort of hit me in the core. There was a lack of maturity. I was just the entrepreneur that happened to be Mayor. And I—ironic, based on our conversation—needed to "play the role" a little bit more than I was. And I needed to mature. And I needed to get my act together.

I went through a process—there was a couple years there, a year where, you know, a lot of things happened all at once. And I was able to get through it, get re-elected.

What were those things that happened all at once?

Divorce, you lose your mom, divorce, dealing with a new job, dealing with high-profile decisions that became very national. All of a sudden, I’m punching above my weight as a young elected official in ways that not many people necessarily imagined. The marriage equality issue being one of them, other things that I was involved in. To your point about drinking a little too much. And after the divorce, making some stupid mistakes that I owned up to and regret, and having to work through all that. These are around this time, you know.

What would you tell that kid?

"Get your shit together."

You're referring to an extramarital affair which you owned up to?

Yeah, I wasn’t married, but she was. And it’s funny—I’ve got a little memoir that I’m putting out, ironically called *Young Man in a Hurry*, next year. I love the title. I reflect on that and dive deeper in a very self-critical way and I hope very honest way. And I hope people can appreciate that.

I think people will, because I think every normal human being understands that they too are imperfect, and especially when life takes hold and you’re growing and you’re learning, we all make mistakes. I’ve made mistakes and I expect to make a lot more. But I think it’s in the admittance of those mistakes and acknowledging them that that’s where we find out who we actually are.

Humiliated. Humiliated. I had no knowledge of any of this stuff. So when you say "humiliated," I just... humiliated. My dad, he said something and I'll tell you it carried forward with me. He told me at the time he was so disappointed in me and he said, "You go home with the one who brought you to the dance." Fuck. And that was the impact I had on one of my friends that I... because of that very, and I don't know, it just—it was like the shortest, it wasn't even a relationship, it was like just some stupid stuff. And I've just tried to—the fact that we're friends today is really important to me, like one of the most important things, like to reconcile. And that’s been profoundly important as part of the journey. But yeah, I let him down, I embarrassed my dad, I embarrassed myself. I wasn't myself. And I had to get my shit together. And did, just a drop of the dime. Back to Mimi Silbert, just a rockstar. She told me—I remember she said, "You’re coming over to see me tonight and we're going to fix this."

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At that age, you were a very young man—you still look like a young man now. God bless you, brother. But young men are in particular—they have a particular set of struggles in the modern world. You've used certain words that sort of parlay into that—you've used the words "purpose" and "meaning." If we look at some of the stats around how young men are doing in the country, it's not great. And even young boys are doing terribly across the world for a variety of reasons. When we think about the political climate and what's happened in this last election cycle, and how young men are voting increasingly for a certain set of ideas... what do you think is going on with young men? And what is the solution or answer that will lead them to a better outcome?

I’m really proud of my wife, who’s been a real leader. She’s done a half-dozen documentaries. She did one that was particularly well-received called *Miss Representation* about the mis- and disinformation around women and girls. She followed up a few years later in 2015 with a documentary called *The Mask You Live In* about masculinity. In 2015, she was highlighting all the things, the trend lines a decade ago, that are headlines today as it relates to the crisis of boys and men. She was noting the suicide rate, she was talking about deaths of despair, she was talking about educational attainment, she was talking about all these issues that were a next-level crisis. It was so ahead of her time in so many respects.

She’s come back to me on that over and over again, particularly with our two boys and their maturation versus my two girls, and the relationship we have to our deeper understanding of how men and girls and women and boys differ. And so, this is "Code Red" in this country, and around the world increasingly. If it was happening to any minority group, particularly in my party, the Democratic Party, we would be all over it. Instead, we’ve been timid about it because men have this sort of hierarchical benefit in society that goes back hundreds and hundreds of years. "Oh, men are really struggling? Really? Men still dominant in all these key positions of power and influence." But when you see all that’s happening underneath, it is a crisis.

As a consequence, the Republican Party, Donald Trump in particular, and I think in some respects what’s happening in this sort of "manosphere"—and I don’t mean that pejoratively—but there’s been not an exploitation, at least there’s a recognition and a relationship to it that has attracted a lot of young men that are seeking meaning, purpose, and mission. As a consequence, it’s also been weaponized, particularly by one party, in a way that I don’t think is ultimately beneficial or positive. Our party needs to own up to that and we need to address these realities.

Richard Reeves is doing amazing work on it, Scott Galloway is doing amazing work on it, so many folks in this space. Cats been doing it for a decade talking about it. But the Democratic Party, my party, needs to own up in this space. Just so I’m not accused of preaching and not practicing, I’ve worked for the last six months on an executive order that we’re about to release in this space that goes to issues around education. It can’t be what you can’t see, and a lot of the kindergarten and elementary teachers, most of them are women. So it’s about recruiting more men to become teachers, focusing on caregiving, focusing more broadly on very intentional interventions to begin to address this crisis.

The Democratic Party, I think it’s fair to say, most certainly played their hand wrong in this regard. And the word "played" is obviously again, comes loaded, but very much I think—to some degree—turned against or misunderstood men. Misunderstood the plight of men and boys. And the Republican Party, I think the message that they offered—although there are shades of behavior or narrative that is not productive—at least spoke directly to men.

100%. We didn't.

What do you think the Democratic Party got wrong as it relates to appealing to young men? What's the narrative that the Democratic Party projected but shouldn't have?

I think there was just a lack of empathy, care, any compassion to what was going on. And recognition—even deeper understanding. I think it’s still something... I still have conversations with folks, and people are very uncomfortable in my party talking about this, particularly members of my party in leadership positions, particularly women that just feel like, "Come on, we just went through MeToo, we're struggling with gender inequality. We still don't have equal representation in all these CEO positions, obviously we're struggling in legislatures, we continue to have this glass ceiling we can't break—and what more proof do you need than Kamala Harris and Hillary Clinton? We don't even get paid for the same amount as men. What the hell are you talking to me about the unique plight and challenges of men?"

Then you start showing, "Well, there's going to be two-to-one graduates coming from our UC system here in California in the next six years." They're like, "That's not true." And then they see the deaths—women, and they go, "Oh, I didn't realize that."

Two-to-one women graduating versus men?

I mean, we're on that track. We're moving down that path. You see the suicide rates are just off the chart. You see the deaths of despair, meaning overdoses, off the charts. And you see all of these indices of unhappiness and loneliness and isolation. Scott has been just the best, talking about what this means in terms of just the inability for boys to ever become men, to be caregivers, to be those warriors, to have—to be those role models to even have the masculine traits of just being able to be engaged in a real relationship, as opposed to attached to some notion of relationship online, porn, or something. So it's a comprehensive strategy that needs to be engaged. And for me, politically, it's—as I said—it's Code Red, not just the substance, the morality of it, but also the politics attached to it because the other party has weaponized this and it’s multicultural, it’s multi-ethnic. It’s not just white male grievance that’s being expressed in this space.

If and when you become President in 2028 or another year, how is the attitude towards men going to shift? And what are the practical ways that you get there towards young men?

Well, I don't think you wait for that moment. I think we have to shape that moment. We have to take responsibility, we have to take account. We have to have a sober—first of all, you have to have a deeper sober reflection why the hell the Democratic Party is at 27% in polls just a few months ago. I mean, it's a toxic party in terms of its brand.

Why? Exactly. We need to understand that. I can give you 25 theories, but...

Can you give me the top few? Because I'm not a politician, so I don't understand a lot of the political talk. But that is staggering. Why did it happen?

This is why it’s one of the reasons I started my own podcast. It was part of that exploration. Again, back to humility and grace—two words I'll use over and over and over again—"seek first to understand before you're understood." I listened to all the punditry hours after the election results. And everyone was an expert. I'm like, "That's amazing. You're an expert." "It was Israel, for sure." "No, it was inflation, for sure." "No, it was interest rates, for sure." "No, it was incumbency, for sure." "No, it was 'woke,' for sure." "No, it was trans, for sure." Everyone was "for sure" they knew exactly what it was.

Meanwhile, I'm like 20 pages in writing this down, saying, "Oh, it's about loss of masculinity. Oh no, it's about the 'manosphere.' Oh no, it's about podcast... it was about Joe Rogan. We didn't go on Joe Rogan. Oh for sure, it was about—she didn't, you know, she didn't say this or she didn't say that." "It was *The View*, for sure. She could have separated from Biden." "No, it was the economy." And then I'm like, "Well, wait a second. I need to really understand this more fully."

And so that became my own journey, back to the entrepreneur, trying to iterate and deciding to get some folks that I vehemently disagree with on a new podcast. Charlie Kirk, because "for sure" he was successful in convincing a lot of young men to turn out in record numbers for Trump. I wanted to learn about that. Back to this notion of "success leaves clues." I want to pick his brain. What are you doing right, man? Show some humility and grace as it relates to not trying to be argumentative in the interview. Just, I want to know why you're so successful. Offended a lot of people.

What did you discover?

He's got a plan. He's executing a plan. He's got a strategy. He's identified a date with a goal attached to it. He's got a dream with a deadline. He's there in places people don't expect him to be. He's meeting with folks without any filter. He's willing to confront people he disagrees with and agrees with. He's willing to be out there on the field. He's organized a construct and he's been very deliberate at building a sense of community.

And this notion of community—we all want to be connected to something bigger than ourselves. It’s a big part of this as well. Part of the MAGA movement. And particularly with people feeling disconnected, you're naturally going to want to find your way back to something bigger than yourself that moors you and gives you a sense of purpose and meaning as well.

When people are lost, they do go in search of someone who resonates with them and someone who speaks directly to their plight. My observation as someone that's not an American—when I think about someone like Charlie Kirk versus Kamala Harris, it's the absolute opposite approach. Kamala Harris, lots of people say she avoided going on Rogan. She wanted him to fly to her. She was going to give him a tiny short time window. It was probably going to be a bit sanitized in all respects. And then Charlie Kirk sits on campuses across the US and has students come up and ask him any question. And his response is he shows you his response, to his credit. He doesn't care about sanitization or being politically correct. And he puts it on YouTube for hours and hours and hours and hours.

I think in a "glass box" world where we get to see inside now because of technology, the "black box" approach—where your PR team tries to paint an image on the outside—is over. And we saw it in this election cycle. And you're doing it, you're leading the charge there. I have to give you credit. You are leading the charge there because I can't think of another key political figure globally who has started a podcast where you literally invite the other side on. So you're playing the glass box approach.

I love the way you describe that. I appreciate... I love everything you said—resonated with me. Had Steve Bannon on. Which itself was interesting. Look, these folks exist and persist. You can deny it, my party can deny it at its own peril. Back to your point about what the hell is happening to my party. And so trying to understand that, trying to unpack that.

But you know, it's interesting. I think Kamala is an old friend of mine. I don't want to get into Kamala—and I say "old friend" and people roll their eyes in politics, people say "old friend" means they're frenemies. But we go back before we were both in politics. We both share that Willie Brown, the former Mayor, in common in terms of a relationship that we both had. As a consequence of the relationship we had with him, we were able to get to know one another as this cohort. And I think a lot about what we've just gone through. I'd love to see Kamala on your show. I’d love to see her picture of mom and dad. And I know her as well as or better than most. But I would love to see that side of her. I would. So this notion of "glass box" versus "black box"? Hey, I’m on here for a reason. I just, you know, it’s like I’m out of any excuse. Look, you are who you are and let it all out there.

I think people claim we long for authenticity. I still mostly believe that. Sometimes I question that because people want you to be your authentic self but they’re like, "Well, don't swear as much," or "Be your authentic self but don't be so emotional," or "Be authentic self *but*..." there’s a *but*. But I think at the end of the day, I think we've crossed that. I think we're on the other side. People just want more of you, whoever the hell you are, with warts and all.

Regardless of what it is. Because even the crazy thing I observe about Trump is even the imperfect things he says that would once upon a time have revolted some people and would have had adverse reactions—the fact that he's willing to say them creates the impression in my mind that I know who he is. And you don't have to like someone, but if you trust that you know who they are, then you feel, I think, safer in predicting what they'll do. Now, if I don't see Kamala sat on Joe Rogan or something like this, getting to know her unfiltered—your team didn't tell me, your team didn't give me any parameters, they didn't say "You can't ask him about this, don't talk about this." There was no parameters. At least people will know who you are.

Yeah, and I think most people don't. They see me as sort of this slick guy that, you know, they think I grew up with a trust fund, everything was handed to him. People don't know my entrepreneurial background. I don't think they believe what they may have seen on Fox News out here or One America News and the weaponization of that. And so you just—it’s critical. I think for our party generally, I think for both parties now, you've just got to get out of that bubble.

I give Trump, to your point, credit in that respect in every way, shape, and form. You can criticize him for many things, you can't criticize him for accessibility, for at least appearing to be authentic in terms of his approach, his willingness to confront and engage. And I think that's very refreshing.

How do you think America's doing?

I think we're struggling. Our identity. I think we're... Trump has made us feel free to shove again. It’s not our better selves. In the Jon Meacham language, the "Soul of America" is struggling. And I really worry about our institutions. I worry about our democracy. I worry about neighbors turning on neighbors. People forgetting the universal truths that we all want to be loved, we all need to be loved. I talked about everybody needing to be connected, but also needing to be respected. And I think people are talking down to each other, talking past each other. It’s why I want platforms with people I disagree with. Had Newt Gingrich on, former Speaker Gingrich who led my recall effort against me. I just, I’m trying to just find some balance in that respect because there are good people that vehemently disagree with us. I don't know that it benefits any of us to demean or belittle folks.

That’s my thing with Trump. He attacks vulnerable communities. My mom—her real early, indelible inspiration for me in terms of one of those two or three jobs she had wasn't just working as a waitress and doing the bookkeeping, but she worked for Aid to Adoption of Special Kids with the DeBolt family that had kids with intellectual and physical disabilities. I remember spending time with these kids. I hate bullies. Forgive the word "hate," I just dislike, I hate bullies. I don't like people demeaning other people. I don't like people scapegoating vulnerable communities. My "why" is standing up for ideals and striking out against injustice. It defines nine out of ten things for me, personal, professional—standing up for ideals, striking out against injustice.

And it’s just to me unjust to see people demeaned and belittled and to see vulnerable communities used as pawns. To talk about alligator whatever in Florida and talk about immigrants in demeaning ways and they have to "zig and zag" if they want to avoid getting killed by an alligator or something, or mocking people with disabilities. That's where I stand firm. And right now my biggest fear—you asked about how where our country is—I feel like Trump has opened that Overton window in a way that I’m very concerned about our ability to get back to find our better humanity.

Who does Trump care about?

Himself, period full stop. It's not complicated. He doesn't care if he's the heel or the hero as long as he's the star. It’s just—anyone that’s spent time with him—I've spent time with him as much or more than any Democrat, certainly any Democratic Governor in the country, period full stop. Did it through COVID, my first term and certainly even in the second term.

And what surprised you?

Nothing. What surprised me now is that he's a very different guy than he was in the first term. There’s no limits now. It’s—there’s a megalomania there. Megalomania? He feels no limits now. And you feel that in every way. He can say and do whatever the hell he wants, and there's no oversight, there's no "advice and consent," there's no co-equal branch of government. Speaker of our House of Representatives completely abdicated that. The question is, do the courts hold up? Or "we the people," citizens.

We're celebrating our 250th anniversary of the founding fathers, the best of the Roman Republic, Greek democracy and this notion of system of checks and balances, popular sovereignty. And I think it's on life support now. And I don't say that lightly. I say that very thoughtfully. And I say that as a guy that's watched the President of the United States not send military into his first term, or his first six months, anywhere in the world except to an American city where he has 5,000 military in the streets of Los Angeles. A war within. So I say this very soberly and mindful of the moment we are in American history.

Do you think he wants to see you fail?

I think he wants to take me out and down at the same time. I think he enjoys the sparring with me. I think he—I think he thrives on it. I know he does. Because he calls you "New-scum," but then meets with you privately. And what are those meetings like? Unbelievably cordial, unbelievably... it drives people crazy when I say this, but I'd be lying if I didn't say it. Every time I have a conversation, including the night before he quote-unquote "federalized" the National Guard, we had an unbelievably good conversation. We were going back and forth, he said, "Use this cell phone, keep calling me on this cell phone directly, if you need anything call me. If you need anything call me." Which is an amazing final statement as I hung up, only to read eight hours later that "New-scum, I read him the riot act," which he never did—completely made the entire damn thing up—and then federalizes the Guard.

It’s a game, a show. A dangerous game. And it’s a very exhausting show. And it's becoming derivative and more dangerous.

Isn't this just how politics goes in America?

Shouldn't. No, it shouldn't. Look, I used to have my beef with George W. Bush, George H.W. Bush—we’d have our beefs on the other side. Republicans certainly with Clinton or Obama or even Biden. Longed for those days. Universally—I go in the office of Ronald Reagan's old office, Governor Ronald Reagan, that's my old office in as Governor of California. I mean, his last speech in the Oval Office, his last speech was about the life force of new Americans, Lady Liberty's torch, our "better angels." I mean, what happened to that Republican Party? And this is different. This—there's darkness.

Really? Darkness?

No, this is dark. We’re only six months in. The vandalization that he's done to this democracy and institutions. I mean, eliminating oversight—I’m not just talking about a co-equal branch of government.

What does that mean for the average person that doesn’t know democracy?

It means there's no—he's eliminated the Inspectors General, auditing capacity. He's going after political opponents, removing them from key positions of power and influence and putting in acolytes, putting up people that just do his bidding. He's pushing the boundaries on the rule of law. He's threatening to recall not just people he disagrees with—he wanted my arrest. Remember the President of the United States said Newsom should be arrested. They said on what grounds? "He got elected." Said he doesn't like the fact that his political enemy got elected.

I mean, he’s not—he doesn't say that lightly. And once a mind is stretched, it never goes back to its original form. So every time he does this, he's sort of testing these boundaries. And this is what makes me more concerned. I'll give you a proof point. God is my witness, we're sitting here when we do this today on this podcast. I just read this morning that Donald Trump was on the phone with the Texas legislature and they're going through a redistricting thing to basically get five more seats for the midterms. Because they're likely to lose the midterms, and Trump is likely to lose power unless they can change the districts and rig the game so he stays in power.

Do you think he's going to try and stay in power beyond his term?

When people close to Donald Trump send the Governor of California a hat that says "Trump 2028," they’re not kidding around.

They sent you a hat saying Trump 2028?

Trump 2028. They're not screwing around. I sat in the Oval Office for 90 minutes with Donald Trump. First Democratic governor to do that. And he just looked—he looked around and said, "Hey, see who's behind you?" I said, "I looked around the pictures." I’m like FDR. And I literally turn, I'm like, "Oh, seriously?" He goes, "Yeah." Goes, "What do you think? Three terms? Four terms?" I said, "Oh, come on." And then he just starts laughing. Because he's having fun, but again, he's throwing things out. He's, yes, he's iterating.

Do you think he would stay for a third, fourth term?

I mean, I think he's the guy that tried to wreck this country, tried to light our democracy on fire. He said it was a day of love, January 6th. So much so that he literally, as you know, pardoned everybody that participated in that melee. I mean, that happened. That is grounds in and of itself to question whether or not I'm overstating anything. And that was first week in office. It's—I mean, this is shock and awe. We have people in masks going to car washes without identifying, and people are disappearing in the streets of America today. Thousands of people disappearing on the streets of America today based on what you look like, your skin color. On the streets of America today, that's happening. That is not normal.

And every day he's able to shape-shift and distract us to move someplace else. "I've got a big announcement, huge announcement on Putin. I’ll do major sanctions in 50 days." Really? I mean, this ability to distract. It's serious. What lies underneath is serious. And I don't think I'm exaggerating and I'm very, very cautious when it comes to this kind of language because you're right, when you tend to say this, start crying wolf here. I don't think we're overstating the seriousness that we have to push back—the seriousness of purpose to which this moment needs to be met, that is.

Really? This is not just another, you know, President comes in, they do a bunch of changes, a bunch of executive orders, and then they leave in three and a half years?

He tried to stay into office. He called the elections chief in Georgia and asked, "I just need a few thousand votes." He wasn't fucking around. He was not joking about that. He was dead serious about that. And had they found that, he would have rigged his own election. You serious? What more evidence do you need? He's quite literally—they're so concerned about taking over the House now, Democrats are on path to do it—they have to rig the game. And you think if they don't take back the House of Representatives, they won't move for some form of voter suppression the likes of which we've never seen in this country? Threats of martial law? What do you think this whole experiment with 5,000 military weeks and weeks and weeks doing nothing, by the way—they're sitting in the armory, they're doing nothing—they're there for show, but he's pushing the boundaries of what they're capable of doing, testing the courts and the Constitution. That's for a larger purpose.

And I'm not trying to be... it may not be intentional purpose yet, but they'll place an opportunity to utilize the lessons learned here today to extend their reach and power tomorrow. And I very much, yes, I worry about our democracy in three and a half years. And I worry about that election if they maintain their power in the House of Representatives. I'm that deeply concerned. Dead serious.

On the balance of probability, do you think it's likely Trump will stay, try and stay in office in 2028?

On the balance of probability, no. But I can see a scenario. But not on the balance of probability—and that's on the basis of one thing: time of life.

Oh, okay. He's 79.

Look, he... this the "Great Grift." He did what he never did in the first term—he played in the margins. He was able to take advantage of his brand and his businesses and make a few bucks here and there, but not the money he's making now. I mean, the crypto, everything he's doing... I mean, the kids now selling cell phones, the whole thing, monetizing everything, coming out with new brands and new... I mean, he finally is doing what he didn't do the first term, is now—he's President of the United States, but now he's going to make a fortune. So when he's no longer President, he'll have a $400 million plane that has a billion dollars of upgrades on it that will be donated to the foundation that he can use for the rest of his life (thank you to the Qataris). He will have billions and billions of dollars, he'll make the vast majority of his wealth in just a few years as President of the United States. He will set himself up in that respect. He'll have hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars of excess campaign cash that he'll be able to use for whatever luxurious lifestyle he ever needs. And I imagine that may satisfy him. As long as he gets his person in to replace him so they can continue that grift going forward.

The American people elected him. They said, "That’s our guy."

That’s why my party needs to own up to that. And this is existential. We need to do better and we need to... I'm... that’s correct.

Are you faithful, hopeful that the Democratic Party are going to wake up in time to field a serious campaign that can compete with that very sort of dominant, prevailing narrative?

I think it starts yesterday. It’s not about the guy or gal on the white horse to come save the day. It's not about 2028. It's about the midterms, which we just talked about. It's also about what happens between now and the midterms. It's about the rule of law, it's about courts, it's about governors, it’s about states, it’s about mayors, it's about "we the people," citizens. I mean, it... look, I was inspired in the "No Kings" day. 5 million people showed up on Trump's birthday. That gave me hope.

Which was a sort of a protest against authoritarianism?

Yeah, it was. Look, you know, it was Justice Brandeis said: In a democracy, the most important office is not office of President, Governor, Mayor; office of citizen.

You’re an entrepreneur. How do you think your party have done with appealing to entrepreneurs? Obviously, you preside over San Francisco which is, globally, we think of as the center point of innovation and technology. But I think the perception is that the Democratic Party don't like entrepreneurs, and the Republicans—it's the home of entrepreneurship. In fact, all of my friends that are entrepreneurs, if they were being honest in private, they would say that they lean towards the Republican Party as it relates to entrepreneurship.

It’s amazing to me. But you know what's interesting? Since 1989, the end of the Cold War in the United States of America, there's been 52 million jobs created. There have been three Republican administrations, three Democratic administrations. So it's fair to say, how'd we do? Republican administrations, Democratic administrations? Since 1989, the end of the Cold War to the end of last year: 52 million jobs. And you'd say, well, it's maybe 50/50, maybe Republicans on the basis of your entrepreneur friends, Republicans probably did 60% of those jobs were created. Well, 50 of the 52 million were created under Democratic administrations. 1.9 million jobs created during Republican administrations. You look at the last three Republican Presidents? They have one thing in common: recessions.

During the last administration, under Joe Biden, created 16.6 million jobs. And I know a lot of those were COVID jobs, but he blew past that after 18 months. He created eight times more jobs than the last three Republican administrations combined. This economy does better, job creation thrives during Democratic administrations. But perception is exactly what you said.

Yes. So you gave me the logic, but the brain isn't oriented towards logic, it’s narrative.

Where’s the economy in this country? Why are we the fourth largest economy in the world? We have four of the top seven market cap companies in the world. Nvidia just came with a $4 trillion market cap. We dominate 32 of the top 50 AI companies are right here in California. We dominate every key industry. We're the biggest manufacturing state. We dominate, name an industry, California dominates. Big blue state.

Why are entrepreneurs so pissed off?

Exactly. 71% of the GDP in this country are blue metro counties.

Elon left. He went to Texas. He said that was a better place.

He left and came right back. Where's Grok? Where's his R&D headquarters, world headquarters? Where are the vast majority of his jobs for SpaceX and Tesla? He did that because he wanted to make a buck. So he could avoid capital gains and avoid income tax as he cashes out on 20 years of largess by the taxpayers in California that created a regulatory environment that created the industry because of our vehicle emission standards and subsidized that industry with billions and billions of dollars of taxpayer money to make Elon rich. And then he turned his back so he didn't have to pay capital gains.

And by the way, he’s back. All his AI, where's all his AI? It's in California. Where are all of his research and development folks? All in California.

Everything you said might be true, and I don't know the details of it, so I can't comment on that. But again, perception. I come back to perception. When I, in my, you know, over in the UK, when I watch the Democratic Party attacking these really successful individuals and Biden attacking Elon Musk—look, I'm not going to go into the details of Elon Musk and his imperfections, he's unique—Elon is Elon, right? He makes it easy to attack both parties are doing it.

But let's just try, let's just try and hit this point, which is the Democratic Party tend to be the ones who are criticizing the world's most successful people and saying that they're this and this, and never pausing to say, "Actually, they did something good as well." And it's the lack of nuance for me where I go, I can't, I can't trust that these people are just pure evil. I can't trust that they're just pure evil and only bad things, which is all I hear. But on the right side, you might hear the opposite. Where is the nuance here? Like, can you say something positive about Elon Musk?

I’ve been—there’s been no bigger champion of Elon Musk for 20 years than I have. I’ve been his biggest supporter. In fact, I have one of the first Teslas right off the factory floor. I've been his biggest promoter and supporter for decades and decades. So I've said that over and over and over again.

It all tends to be negative about these entrepreneurs. You can understand from left politics around the world, it does seem to have a certain disdain for successful entrepreneurs.

So let's talk about that. It is the worst part of my party. I can't stand it. I do not begrudge other people's success. I'm inspired by it. I admire it. We opened this conversation up—all these heroes of mine, like Richard Branson is a hero of mine. I love his success, I love his audacity, I love his ability to compete, I love his ability to promote, create jobs, opportunity, wealth. I think it is a big problem in the Democratic Party. And we do not do enough to make this fundamental point: you cannot be pro-job and anti-business, period.

And we need to say that and we need to demonstrate that. Look, it drove me crazy. Half my friends were up there—like maybe not even half, a lot more than half—were up there with Donald Trump when he got sworn in. And the symbolism of that was: he’s got their back and they have his back, of entrepreneurs and dream makers in this country. And I thought, "Jesus, I mean, just that alone. Where the hell was my party? Why are we making a case for entrepreneurs and business leaders?"

Do you respect Elon?

I respect—I’ve long respected him, but he’s changed in the last seven or eight years. He just has. And I say that with so many mutual friends, universally saying that. In fact, I was one of the last to come around. I’m like, "No, he's all right." Even after quote-unquote "Tesla left," which they never did—they didn't move a job, they just changed the corporate headquarters. He came back a few months later. You can go online and you can see a press conference I had when he moved his world R&D headquarters back to California. And I praised Elon. And that wasn't that long ago—that was after quote-unquote "he left" the state of California.

But he’s different now. Something's changed. And now, of course, that’s been exposed across the spectrum. It's not just from a prism of left and right. But I've long admired him. He created this entire market. And he’s 100% right about this big beautiful building. He's 100% right that we're doubling down on stupid and we're investing in the past as the rest of the world is leaping forward. China's going to clean our clock as it relates to electric vehicles, they're going to clean our clock in terms of the future and dominate it because of some of what Donald Trump has just done in rolling back progress that was made over the last decade or so, particularly as it relates to what just occurred with the IRA and notably with the infrastructure bill that the President of the United States, previous President, passed. So I agree with him on a lot of things, but some character issues that I question.

I use his name I guess because he’s now so influential in this country, but he's also like a figurehead of entrepreneurship and innovation. So he owns X as well, the platform's so big. Under—if you are ever to become President—what's your attitude going to be towards entrepreneurs like him and how is that different to the Democratic history?

Celebrate! Revere their entrepreneurialism. We celebrate them. We celebrate their contributions. Again, we don't... I mean, I just the idea that our party is branded by begrudging other people's success? It's devastating to the aspirations of what it means... I mean, so much of what it means to be an American in California is the dream. It's attached to this notion of social mobility, that there's a limitlessness in terms of being and doing anything. And so my job as Governor and my job in any position would be to create the conditions where people feel included, feel seen, where they can live their lives back—when I said earlier—out loud and we create the conditions where their success becomes inevitable or irresistible. And I think a lot of what leadership is is climate control—not in the sustainable sense, but in the—it's no longer command and control.

What I concern about now is the command and control of "crony capitalism" coming back into the United States of America because of Donald Trump. You've got to kiss the ring. If you don't kiss the ring, it's going to be punitive. You want an exemption on the tariffs? Just make a call or, rather better yet, make a contribution. Maybe you make a contribution indirectly by buying some crypto. And that contribution then gets benefit. Maybe you make a deal overseas on weapons and we'll take care of the golf course, maybe we'll take care of the new two towers for the family. That's what's happened under Trump in just six months, to a degree never—it's unimaginable in the United States to see it at this scale, in this—at this level. And that is to me not free enterprise.

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Is the world safer now under Trump than it was under Biden?

There's nuance to that. I don't think it's a binary. "Safe," I mean I think...

In terms of war and the probability of a World War III? Are we in a safer...

I think it's more unpredictable than it's been. I worry about nuclear proliferation. I worry about AI.

Biden wasn't doing so well. When I watched that debate and Biden was struggling over his words and couldn’t be coherent with sentences, I did...

I was his chief surrogate that night.

Chief surrogate?

Meaning I was there representing the campaign to make a case for the...

Oh, so you were there! I actually think I saw you afterwards doing interviews.

I was doing my best to have... and you go home with the guy who brought you to the dance. And I was proud to support him, but that was a difficult night.

Did you realize in that moment—was it that moment you realized that he wasn’t doing well?

Right when he walked out on stage. I was in the back. I’ll never forget physically standing up as I was watching and going, "Ooh." And I turned to my staff, I said, "Something's off." Right when he walked on stage. Felt it. It was only time I saw that—was at a fundraiser here that he had after he had no sleep and I just—we all just literally assumed it was just jet lag and he had flown back and forth in over a week, back and forth to Europe twice and he had a late night. I thought, "Boy, he's just not on," and that was in private not just his public comments with President Obama that night.

There was a lot of talk of rhetoric that there was an internal desire to overthrow him around that time because you could see on TV he was struggling and in the polls and Donald Trump was reveling in it. And then I heard this narrative coming up that Nancy Pelosi and the Democratic Party were having private conversations and telling him to step down and forcing him out. All cards on the table, 100% truth: is there any truth in that?

Yeah, no, a lot of that was happening. I mean, a lot of people were—I mean, there was a phone tree that lit up that night. There was a text tree, phone tree, email—just blew up.

Saying?

People were in panic. Total full-fledged panic. And there was a need and desire to know that he was okay and that this was momentary, or discover that there was something else—maybe he had a cold, maybe there was some other issue. And it led to those kind of conversations that many have been made public, many private. Led to meetings with Democratic Governors in the White House with the President around a table.

Including you.

Including me. "Mr. President, tell us, you know, what's your path, how you're feeling?" Some honest back-and-forth with a few governors that challenged him a little bit more than one would have expected with sort of protocol within the party. And a real desire obviously to turn the page, and ultimately that manifested with a decision he made and led to our nominee, his Vice President.

He was effectively pushed out of the party by pressure.

I mean, he wanted to continue, that was clear. He said that. He believed he was only one that could beat Donald Trump. Having beaten him once, he was convinced he could do it again. He believed that his record of the lowest black unemployment, Hispanic unemployment, lowest unemployment for women, the best economy in 60 years as it relates to jobs and GDP growth, inflation that was cooling from 9.1 and was moving in the right direction with the Chips and Science Act, with the infrastructure bill, the IRA—four bipartisan bills—he felt lowest uninsured rates, they felt like things directionally were moving despite the inflation scars and then he can make that case. He felt that he really did feel that way.

A lot of the narrative was that you were going to step in potentially at the last minute and I know in your head you must have been mulling and thinking about different possibilities and outcomes. Things were moving so quickly and there was so such little time. I saw your name mentioned all the time associated with stepping in to replace him.

No, but I was also the one that was out there still campaigning for him after everyone else had turned their back.

True! But you must be in your head at night thinking, "Things could change."

I wasn't then. I talked about what shaped me, those moments. When I say "no daylight," when I say, "I've got to make up for disappointing this guy and myself," when I'm in, I'm in. And I'll tell you, the coin of the realm in politics is loyalty, period full stop. Willie Brown taught me that, and Joe Biden... I was going to have his back. So I literally—I'm telling you, look me in the eye because I know it's cynical—did not think along those lines. After he dropped out, those minutes later and my cell phone blew up, I confess that there were a number of people that wondered and I imagine you can—there were plenty of people sort of circling go, "Well, maybe this is the moment."

And what were you thinking once he dropped out?

I—to be candid, I'm going to get in trouble for saying this but I haven't said it publicly—I was a little angry I didn't get heads up.

You didn't get a heads up that he was dropping out?

I just—give me like a text two minutes before! Because I was embarrassed, I was sitting with a group of people. I was and my phone rang. I was like, "Wow." So I was my first reaction honestly was like, "Jesus, after all this stuff I did for this guy and didn't even a heads up." And first missed call—true story—I didn't even know it was unknown number. I didn't even look at it for about six hours and it was Kamala.

Kamala! She already made the call to you.

Saying what?

She just left a voicemail: "Love to talk." So, you know, and a few hours later, I put out a press release supporting her candidacy.

What should the Democratic Party have done with the wisdom of hindsight in that moment instead of just putting Kamala straight in?

We’re all geniuses in hindsight. I don't know what you could have possibly done with just such a short runway. You had the Vice President of the United States, you had the apparatus that was built within the party, you had the legal ability for her because it was the Biden-Harris campaign to transfer a lot of that. You had little time. You would have opened up to a circular firing squad as it relates to the party. In hindsight, it didn't work.

What could you have done with the benefit of hindsight that might have worked?

"Woulda, coulda, shoulda." I don't live in that. I think but I live where we were exploring a moment ago and that is in reflection more broadly of where the party is. Less the individuals and I think that's our biggest mistake—we're so consumed by the individual.

Identity politics?

Well, issues related to identity politics broadly, but it's not just the person. It's who we represent. And there's a word we didn't use earlier, but you used it in relation to Trump: weakness versus strength. And I'll tell you at the core, the end of the day, to me it's that distinction that perhaps says more things in more ways on more days about where our two parties are. Donald Trump exudes, strangely, strength. I think he's weakness masquerading as strength. Our party appears weak for many, too many.

And I remember Bill Clinton after shillacking—we got crushed in a midterm—and he said, "Given the choice," Bill Clinton said, "The American people always support strong and wrong versus weak and right." There's something about that. I think this notion of strength, I think it goes to young boys, I think it goes to Trump and Trumpism, what he sells, what he represents to people. I think in that distinction maybe is a pathway for our party.

And my last question before I get to the book, which is the question left by our last guest is—there's a high probability which you know I'm aware of that I'm sat with the future President of the United States. There's a probability, even if it's a 1% probability, it's an extraordinary opportunity to ask this question. Even if it's a 1%—but I looked at the odds before I walked out so I know it's higher. Under—if I took that "Men in Black" little black little pen thing that erases memory, and I erase my memory of the Democratic Party and I erase the memory of the Democratic Party for all of my audience watching, and you have a clean slate to redefine that party—and we don't remember or we don't reflect on the past—and that party is coming up in 2028 against the Republican MAGA-centric party, maybe led by J.D. Vance... what is the proposition you're putting forward? I'm a young man, but not just for young men, for everybody. What is the proposition you're putting forward? What does it sound like? And I don't want any of the political stuff because I'm... what does it sound like?

Look, and you can appreciate, I hope, that I don't have the kind of answer that's worthy of that question. Because it's a spectacular question. And it's fundamentally the question that needs to be answered by whoever is running for President of the United States. And it needs to be done so congruently. It can't be, to your point, bullshit. It can't be a poll-tested focus group, bunch of words and pablum. You have to feel it.

In so many respects, what you just—what we just ended on, I think this notion of the dream, I think this notion of—I think there's something about why we're together that is sort of that the intersection of entrepreneurialism, aspiration, inspiration, growth, opportunity, inclusion that begins to answer and flesh out—create an answer that fleshes out. And it's in that space that I'm consumed. I'm consumed by contribution and service—this notion of service, communitarianism, this notion that we're all better off when we’re all better off. I think public service should be a requirement, national service. But it's in that space that ultimately I think an answer will emerge.

And there's lots of... it's funny because politics, as I've learned more and more about it, is this battle between rationality and logic and then just emotion and perception, I guess.

Exactly right.

So you talked about some of the great things the Democratic Party have done, but it's crazy how the headlines will be dominated by some issue around quote-unquote "woke ideology."

100%.

And it almost becomes the case that people care—they’re more emotionally compelled by this idea that their kids in schools are being taught something that is corrupting their mind versus how the economy is doing or jobs.

I know, and they were—and I think we struggled to recognize that. They were shape-shifting CRT, ESG, DEI—any three letters. I mean, we were on our heels, we were on the receiving end of all this. We’re constantly on the defense. I love what President Obama just said: he said, "We've got to get more aggressive, get on the offense." I've been saying this for years.

What does that mean?

Meaning we’ve got to shape the narrative. Illusion rules, facts don't matter. You've got these propaganda networks weaponizing grievance 24/7 and we're constantly responding to these culture wars. And let me be specific on that. I think the Governor of Utah said it best: never has so much attention been focused on so few as it relates to the issue of trans athletes. He's 100% right.

But there's also truism and it's part of, you know, part of being in business: you're nothing but a mirror of your consistent thoughts. Whatever you focus on, you're going to find more of. And so if 24/7 that's all that's coming from you—"California this, California that, California crack-up, everyone's leaving, worst place to do business"—you start to believe it. You start to—it starts to shape your conversation and then you start finding proof points. "Oh, there's an encampment. Oh, I just read about this crime down at the Walmart and everyone's leaving." Because why? "Because Elon left, everyone's leaving."

So narrative matters to your point. Trump understands that better than anybody. He repeats things over and over in the vernacular of my buddy Marshawn Lynch: over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. So I think flooding the zone in that respect—you are a master at it, I mean—Jesus, seriously! I mean, of all people, I should hire you, my friend, that understands data and analytics, communication, how to target broader message, values, brand, strength, and how to sell. You've got to sell! I mean, we sit there talking about the Chips and Science Act, no one knows what the hell you're even talking about. We didn't sell what we were delivering.

You need to rebrand it.

Yeah! And it’s also—look, part of the answer to the question you asked earlier is also in Ezra Klein and others talk about an "abundance mindset." We've had this scarcity mindset, this sort of zero-sum mindset. And as an entrepreneur, you don't have a scarcity mindset. And I think as part of the brand building of our party, it's not just in terms of housing and issues related to what Ezra speaks in terms of abundance mindset, but it's that growth abundance mindset. And I think that's part of what when I talk about "the dream," I'm also saying this, by the way, from the prison of that no other governor can really claim: you have the American Dream and you have the California Dream. There's no other state that's attached to a dream. And I think there's something evocative in that because that inspires a journey that we can be on, a journey that we can go on together.

So I’m captured by the vernacular of the 60s. And Bobby Kennedy was my political hero. Sargent Shriver and Kennedy—everything about that: solving for ignorance and poverty and disease and this notion of going on a journey together. That’s what the moon was all about. And we can see ourselves on that journey. Right now, it's the blue team versus the red team. This is a war within in this country, and I think whoever runs in the next four years or three years, it's about stitching this thing back together and going on a journey together because, as I say all the time, divorce is not an option.

There's just two other things that sprung to mind as you were talking. I've always wondered in California, specifically in L.A.—I told you I moved here, just moved into my place yesterday in fact—I was in a CVS, I think it was. Horrible, right? Yeah, I couldn’t believe it! I said to the team—this was like six months ago—I went to a CVS to get some toothpaste and I got to the toothpaste and it's in a cage. And I said to the lady there, I was like, "Why is the toothpaste in a cage?" And she goes, "Look," and she points down the aisle and there was a gentleman—a homeless gentleman—who was stuffing things in his sock. And I thought, "Fuckin' hell, like if I look over there, there's these mansions in the hills. And if I’m in the CVS, the toothpaste is in a cage because the homeless people are stuffing things into their socks." Is that fixable?

Yes.

And what caused it?

Well, now you're dealing with larger systemic issues that go back decades and decades and the "haves" and "have-nots" and a drug addiction.

Yes.

And the broader... I mean, specifically issues around homelessness and that gets to deeper issues about mental health, behavioral health issues, affordability, housing crisis.

But is it fixable?

Yes, by definition.

Why does no one fix it?

It’s being fixed. And progress is literally being made. We're seeing significant reductions back-to-back years in crime, we're seeing significant reductions in organized retail theft, we're seeing significant reductions—including just here in L.A. they announced a 17.5% decline over two years in the number of people out in the streets and sidewalks and unsheltered homeless. That was literally announced yesterday by the Mayor. So there is progress in all these cases.

You’re getting more radical on this point as well because I’ve watched very closely a couple of years ago when you announced that you’re going to have to get these encampments off the streets.

I’m done with it. It’s exhausting. Clean them up! It's the job of a Mayor, my job as Mayor, former Mayor of San Francisco—do your job. Clean them up! Get people off the street. There's nothing—stepping over people on the streets and sidewalks is not compassion. And so we have flooded the zone in terms of support and resources. Now it's about performance.

I have the great honor of working with Prince William in the UK on a homelessness initiative, so I know the complexities of it. And some people think of it as just a housing issue, but having spent time with people at risk of homelessness, I know it's a confidence issue, it's a mental health issue, it's a job issue, it's a pathway into employment issue. It’s a very, very complicated issue. So that’s actually blown my mind, "Homeward" have in terms of...

I mean, I said all the time: shelter solves sleep, housing and supportive services solve homelessness. You've got to deal with the underlying reasons people are out in the streets and sidewalks in the first place. And so it's about this comprehensive integration of care—"whole person care" as we describe it. We've just gone through the most significant mental health reforms in US history. We have flooded the zone with more support—26,000 new units of behavioral housing we are producing and procuring in the state of California in real time, with zoning reforms so we can site them, workforce development reforms, and we're reorganizing the integration around mental health in the silos and people with drug and alcohol addictions and the integration. And this is the source to me of so much of my real passion in terms of my day job. And you're going to see real progress in this state.

Well, I did do some research beforehand and I can see that there's some really significant actions taken. And they are nuanced and complex homelessness solutions, so that's very, very encouraging. And it's encouraging to meet someone who understands the complexities of this problem because actually the narrative that will win out in an election cycle is going to be emotional, it's going to be simple. And so I think everybody should look out for emotional and simple answers and exclude them whenever you hear them.

Last question before I ask you this one: all the headlines at the moment are about Jeffrey Epstein. And the way that that's been handled really is the thing that I find so fascinating because on the way into the presidential office and into those big roles, there were certain promises made about the Epstein files and it would be released and if you vote for me, then I will release these files. And now there's nothing to see. What happened there?

Well, they lied—they lied to you then or they’re lying to you now, period. Someone lied about this. They dangled this in order to get votes, and they lied to people. They used people. And someone needs to be held to account. And look, I can be cynical about it, I can be very political about it and say: it’s interesting when Elon—we brought up Elon—when Elon Musk tweets something out saying "Trump’s on the list," and a few days later there is no list, it leads to some open-ended questions.

What would you have done if you were Trump in that situation? So, say that you’d been elected and the public are demanding to see this list, what would you have done?

One thing is obvious: I know Pam Bondi well, the Attorney General. We've known each other over the years. She doesn't move without Trump. If she's fired, she's the fall person because there's no question she was directed by Trump to say what she said. She would not have—period full stop—done something independent of the President on the Epstein files.

So Trump is the person that's...

So one has to acknowledge that. So then it begs additional questions: why was she told not to release the files unless A, there's no files, and they made it up the entire damn time, just like they made up Obama's birth certificate, just like they make up most things most days? In my humble position, I think that's very plausible. It could be very simple—it could be as simple as that. They started the conspiracy and now they've backed up, they started they cover their asses and they're just like, "Shit, we got caught." We used this, we sort of squeezed this out, we got everything we needed, we're in power. Or it's more insidious than that. And look, the one thing is just not even... it's just simple truth: Epstein and Trump were close. They were. It wasn't just a few photographs. They were close. That's a fact. Sorry, Donald—just a fact.

So, look, I get why this has outraged folks. I think it's interesting it's outraged some of the core base. I enjoy the hell out of it. I'm just—that was my private voice out loud as a Democrat. And yeah, I hope our party gins this up much more as they would.

If you get into office, people are going to say, "Release the list."

I mean, if there is a list, I will! I would open it to release the list or what? Unless there's some national security secret here and I know that leads to speculation about Mossad and other speculation about, was he on the foreign intelligence list and is there real implications to our national security? Why'd he make all his money? I mean, I’ve got enough problems with homelessness and housing in California to worry about Jeffrey Epstein, but hey—they created this mess. Now they’ve got to clean it up.

Governor, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're leaving it for.

Okay.

And the question left for you is: Have you received a sign from beyond?

A sign... that's good! In the spirit of Epstein and sort of conspiracies, I immediately go to... uh, yeah. Look, I don't know about *that*, but there's a spiritual aspect to me, meaning I'm a person of faith. I grew up in the church, went to a Jesuit university, quote the Bible often—"many parts, one body." So I feel that connection to something bigger than myself, if for no other reason than I'm desperate for it.

The person who wrote the question, I'll give you a little bit of a clue, they're referring to a late loved one that passed away.

More specific? Yeah, fascinating. I've never... you feel people's presence when you hear a song, you feel people's presence when you, you know, during a season of the year and you know, I will say... alright, I will say, you've got me. And this was uncanny. My father passed away in his house in San Francisco. I came after, in this case there was no assisted suicide, but I came right after and visited him. And right outside the window was a peregrine falcon. Can't make this up. My father was passionate about peregrine falcons. I've never seen a peregrine—I grew up in San Francisco in my life—it was a peregrine falcon right on the balcony right after his death. My sister and I looked at each other and said, "You can't—that was the sign." True story. There's my answer.

Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm really encouraged by the example you're setting for so many reasons. And one of the biggest reasons that I’m super encouraged by the example you're setting is because you're doing what I've wished for so long so many people in your position, in your political position, would do, which is to speak to the other side but also to get out there and to have conversations like this in this new medium of podcasting that is unfiltered, uncensored, and is long-form. I just, I always longed to see that from the Democratic Party, but they've hidden behind PR and sanitized messaging for so long and you're bucking the trend.

I was so happy when you sat down with Charlie Kirk because those are the conversations I want to see! And actually, you being in the same room made me both realize that there’s a lot you have in common and also allowed me to compare the fundamental differences in person. But also, it’s so wonderful to get to know you as a man and where you come from.

I appreciate that.

Because now I understand—I understand your motivations, I understand the decisions that I think you'd make going forward as President. And it feels like a great honor for you to have given me this time, but also, as I said, for your team not to tell me "You can't talk about this, you can't talk about that" and just to let me talk about whatever I wanted to talk about. So thank you so much and thank you for having me in your home state now of California. I guess I'm a kind of a half-semi-resident or something. And yeah, I’m going to be watching with much curiosity to see how it plays out and you present a new vision for America. I highly recommend everybody goes and checks out your podcast as well—I'm going to link it on the screen and below. This is *Gavin Newsom*, where you do exactly that—you sit with people and have these conversations that are so unfortunately rare with people you often disagree with. It's a fantastic show and it always has me absolutely hooked. And your book here as well I'm going to recommend because it really shaped how I think about your philosophy. It's called *Citizenville: How to Take the Town Square Digital and Reinvent Government*, which talks a lot about social media and the role it plays. Thank you so much, Gavin. It's been an honor.

It was my honor. Thank you so much.

Really grateful. Thank you so much for the time. Appreciate it.

Just give me 30 seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say: The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. It means the world to all of us. This really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn’t have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it’s a dream where we feel like we’re only just getting started. If you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app. Here is a promise I’m going to make to you: I’m going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can, now and into the future. We’re going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to, and we’re going to continue to do all the things you love about this show. Thank you.