Francis Ngannou Breaks Down Sharing Heartbreaking Story: "I Don't Know The Purpose Of Fighting Anymore", "I Feel Powerless", "I Don't Know How To Deal With This!"
Guests: Francis
Full transcript · Read the full conversation in order, with its original context.
§01Transcript — part 1
Just getting tired, being tough, was the purpose of fighting if I would end up not being able to fight for the only person that I can fight for. Presenting Francis E. Nile! UFC heavyweight champion of the world, I was 13 years and I decided that I was going to be a professional fighter. But I have no money. We don't have shoes. We don't have food. There's not a gym. I have to do something for that dream. So I left Cameroon. You need to get to Spain.
I was reading that people died. Oh, a lot. And you were drinking water that had dead animals. We had no choice. I had time in the ocean. I fell six times. I tried to climb the fence, but that was the toughest part. Why didn't you give up? When your dream is so big, it's hard to give up. And the day that we arrive in Paris, I could start that dream to become a war champion. You left the UFC because of a disagreement with Dana White. What's the truth?
Easy. He didn't want to... And then you fought anti-Joshua. Honestly, on that fight, there was a lot of unfairness. What do you mean? They have a lot of tricks. Do you think they were doing that intentionally? Yeah. He was so messy. And then life shows how cruel it's capable of being. When my boy passed away, that was the moment that I really felt like you failed you. Have you been able to grieve? . Francis, we met in a hotel room in Paris. It was me, you, Thierry Henry, and Chemi, and several other people.
And I knew you from TV. I'd watched you fight, but I had no idea about your story. And it's funny, because we all went around one at a time, Thierry, me, and then you, and shared our early story. And when we came to your story, I just couldn't believe it was true. I couldn't believe it was true. Really? Of course, I'd never heard, and I sit here and interview people for a living, I've never in my life heard a story like that. From where you started to where you ultimately ended up.
And I know you've told it before to some people, but... I have to start there because I think it creates the context of everything that you are today and the man that sits in front of me. So if you take me back to West Cameroon in 1986, what would I see? What was your childhood like? But I think you will see two parents that are just struggling making it. A dad who was a carpenter and then a mom that really didn't have a job. And then at some point she was doing whatever she find, whether it's like selling, cook some stuff and sell in the trade.
So that was it. Back then, back in 1986. The average person lives on $1,500 a year in West Cameroon. That's what I read. Oh, that's a lot. Oh, really? $1,500 a year. That's a lot of money. How much money were your family living on a year? A year? Oh, definitely less than that. Less than $1,000 for sure. And you're in a village of about 11,000 people? Yeah. I mean, yeah, maybe back then. I think now it's over 20,000 people or 30,000 people now. I found some pictures.
Take a look at these pictures. What are these different pictures? Can you describe them to me, what they are? Oh yeah, this is me and my mom in our kitchen. Yeah, this was when I won the UFC title. And then I studied there on purpose, like I've been sitting in this kitchen since when I was, kid so dreaming about boxing and everything so I gotta go out there from this kitchen go out there get that belt of a world champion and bring it back and set it in that same kitchen and sit in the same spot that I used to sit there now I'm like at the end of the day not only everything is possible it's not such a big deal you know For anyone that can't see this because they're listening on audio, with all due respect, it looks like the floor is mud and the walls are mud and bricks.
Yeah. So it looks like a mud hut. Yes. That's how we build house because it's the less cost you want because you make like a mud to make bricks. It's not like a brick with sand and cement. It's just a mud. So it's like a mud hut. Yeah. And you're sat on the floor with your mother? No, on the floor, on the chair. I mean, I wouldn't call that a chair, but it's a piece of wood. It's a chair, a piece of wood, which is a chair. You can see it in the piece of wood.
It's very comfortable. Was this a happy childhood? No, absolutely not. But for some reason, I think regardless of everything, I owe who I am today to my childhood. You know, as much as I hate my childhood, I was so mad, so upset about it, since we didn't have the minimum necessities. like even like brush, toothbrush, stuff like that, you know, book to go to school, even like a petrol to put in the lamp and learn. We didn't have some time. Sometimes like you see the fire there, right?
On the picture, the fire where we are cooking on the wood. Sometimes you're going to take your book there and read it like this. Like, so this is just a fire you've made with a bunch of wood and some rocks and you would go and read by the fire so you could see your book. Yeah, we cook. They put some food on top of the bricks or the stone there to cook. And then meanwhile, you're using the fire, the flame to light up and read your book sometime. What made your childhood so unhappy though?
What was it other than the- The difficulty, the challenge of everything. As I said, like we miss everything. Most of the time, a lot of time we will be walking barefoot because we don't have shoes. Or we will be like fixing shoes in 10, in thousand ways, you know, to still have shoes. Our pants will be having holes all over and we will still try to do. We will go to school, be embarrassed because maybe sometime we don't have a pen or pencil or notebook.
or haven't paid school fee and they're gonna kick us out from the classroom. So all that stuff was embarrassing, not to mention like when come a break time, you don't have something to eat, unlike your peers, the other kids, you know, you're just around on your own. So it was a lot of things, everything was a challenge. And that's why like, when sometimes I'm like, you people that have been very comfortable never been in the struggle, I'm like, oh, money doesn't make happiness, money, blah, blah, blah.
I'm like, give me the money and then keep the happiness. Because I have been without money and I know what it feels like all day long. I prefer being with money. You're really describing the comparison that causes the unhappiness between yourself, your family, who you guys were, and the other kids. Yes, absolutely. I mean, how many times do I get sick and didn't have a pill? Couldn't even go to the hospital. We couldn't even have a pill from around the street.
A pill? Yeah. And then you're just home sick like this, hoping, having some prayers, maybe luckily sometime go in the bush and find some remedy to cook and hopefully that it works, but you can't afford. What were you eating during that time when you didn't have the money? We were farming. Corn, beans, peanuts, stuff like that. Yum, cassava, veggies, stuff like that. Is there a moment you look back on your childhood and think, that was the worst moment for me growing up?
Just a memory or something that happened that you thought, this was really the bottom for me? I would not say the bottom. I mean, regardless of everything, I think, I was lucky and I think I was gifted to be able to handle that in a proper way. You know, when I look at it today, I'm impressed of the way that I handle it. And even without knowing where that would lead me, where I was going with that, I just handle it like find a way out, but I never like feel like a bottom.
You know, in fact, Like one of my biggest motivation came out of that situation. Like I was around 13 years old and it was someday around 3 p.m. They kicked me out of the classroom one more time. And I think that day I was pissed. I was very pissed. Like... almost crying like, okay, what the hell is this? Like, what do I do to deserve this? Like, why is this so unfair? You know? And then the look of the other kids on me, I didn't stand that either, you know, then, Therefore, it was now a challenge.
I promised myself that I'm going to change that. I'm going to prove them. It's not my fault. I was just a child, just as them. Woosh doesn't have the same opportunity as them. Just we couldn't have a parent that can provide for them. But in fact, the minimum that I had, Woosh wasn't enough, was... Something that I worked for, I earned. I know the value of it. And even though they have more than me, they didn't earn it. You know, they gave it to them, but they didn't earn it.
I started to work in the sand quarry. I was nine years old. So... Which was a sand mine. Yeah, sand mine. And what are you doing? You're using a shovel to pick up sand and put it in piles. Yeah, pick up sand or deep sand on the mountain. So, I mean, I know that I get to realize that even though I have less, I work for those less and I work hard for that. And even though they have more, they don't really know the value of what they have. So, in fact, I'm not beneath them, in fact.
um, quite superior. Why were you kicked out of the classroom that day? When you were 13? He was, I think he was scholarship. That exact same day, I think, was scholarship, the fee, the scholar fee. Oh, okay. So you were kicked out of school because you didn't have the money? Yeah, because I haven't paid the annual fee. I haven't completed the annual fee. And yes, that day he was it. But, you know, he was the same thing over and over this year, next year, the year after.
And... That day, I think it was a signal. And now I'm like, this is going to change. But the problem now, I was in the situation that I needed to do more than others to be noticed. I wanted to prove them that the perception that they have of me is not who I am. I'm better than that. And I'm like, this is going to change. Yeah, so I was 13 years. And that's the day that I decided that I was going to be a professional fighter, a professional boxer.
It was the day that I really decided. Growing up, I wanted karate, I wanted this, I wanted that. But I got to the point that I wanted something that not only would be my passion, but at the same time would provide for me and help me to provide for my family as well. And then I come across like, okay, boxing, combat sport is the thing to do. But problem, I'm 13 years old. There is not a gym in 50 miles radius. And I never see a gym. You know, I never saw a gym before then.
And even after that time, I think I stayed in the village until I was 22, was the moment that I'm like, okay, enough is enough. I can just be dreaming. I have to take action. I have to do something for that dream. Then I leave the village. I move to the city. I move to some place that I don't know, and then just, like say everything that I have to start boxing. And I was 22 at that time. I've heard you say as well about your father. My whole life, my father was the example for me of what not to do.
Yeah. I think that's the best thing that ever happened to me because if my dad wasn't what he was, I could have been what he was. But I still love him a lot. Yeah, because again, like from my perspective, he's the person that affected my life the most. He was violent and then I happened, but he wasn't capable of canalizing his energy, his strain or know how to use it. Then maybe if... they have an argument or something. Usually at times people were fighting a lot, but he was stronger, so he basically ended up beating other people.
So it makes them the victim and him the guilty, right? So and then he has a reputation because when you get in so many fights in the hood and you're winning any fight, so you're just a bad guy, you know? So he has that reputation from people who don't really like his behavior. And then... That's something that I understand really quick and then will have affected me. I didn't want to have that reputation. Although I like everything that related with power.
I was very into it. But I'm like, no, no way they are talking to me about my dad. Basically, like the divorce, I was six years old. So I started to go live with my aunts and these and everywhere. They'll be like, yes, you just... Yeah, he's doing that. He's like his father. He must be like his father, stuff like that. And it pisses me off, like, so bad. I didn't want to have that reputation, even though I like everything with strength, power fighting.
Then that's how I ended up finding those boxing combat sport staff. It was the right thing to do because there was rules. There was rules. It was organized and everything was right to do. And it wouldn't affect your reputation. When you get into a boxing match or character fight, you win. You're a winner. They celebrate you. They don't blame you for beating somebody. He was a violent man outside of the home, but also inside the home. Yeah, a little bit.
To you and your mother? We would get some spank. I mean, in Africa at that time, that kind of thing was happening a lot into a lot of families. So it wasn't something... Nowadays, things are a little different, but it wasn't something that was very different, you know? Just so he was kind of like straight, straight guy. Yeah. Was he violent towards your mother? No. Sometimes, sometimes it could happen. He passed away when you were 15 years old? Yeah, he did.
How did that impact you at 15 when he passed away? You know, he wasn't, um, he wasn't a big part of my life at that time, um, But yeah, you get affect, you think about like your dad and the fact that you will never see him again, you know, time to time for months. You think I am like, man, so this is it. And yeah, he affected you a lot. I mean, you're hurt, but you just have to keep rolling. When he passed away, he couldn't afford to go to the hospital?
Yeah. He was sick. He was at home for months. Sick, just stay in bed. Couldn't even go out to the toilet on his own, anything. He has one leg that was... rotten and was just there like that until he died. And that was something that I look at it and I'm like, man, I think I need to do something. I need to take action because this kind of thing might happen again in the future or to my mom or to somebody close and I will be powerless. And no, it doesn't have to be like this.
So that was one of the reasons, like just being sick, be at home, and to die. Maybe we could have saved him if we had money. Maybe he could have still be alive if he could have go to the hospital. But nobody knows, and nobody will ever know. A couple of years ago, After, I was looking at my mum and I asked myself if she ever got sick, what would I do? And it scared the hell out of me. At that point, I knew I had to do something to at least be able to provide her some decent healthcare.
I always wonder what it would be like if my dad was still alive today. I wish I can have him in my life today, even just for a day. Yeah. Well, after my dad passed away, and then I think that was also a shock of our situation. I realized, I mean, I was 15. By the time I know that our situation wasn't good, we weren't living in a good condition, but that was like eye opening, like, okay, this how bad it is. He didn't go to the hospital for months.
I was going there time to time and he was suffering. in pain and everything, he didn't go to the hospital. And even when he passed away, I kept having nightmares of seeing him in pain, screaming at night, stuff like that. And I'm like, this is not happening again. Bro, like, it was tough, right? So, Now, that was not only like I was thinking that when I grow up, I will have a family and I will want to provide to them and then get them in a good situation, in a better condition.
But that was like, okay, there's something that can happen again. What would you do? It could be, yes, it could be your mom. It could be one of your siblings. Or it could someday be your own kids. What would you do? like just sit there and no, I need to do something. So that's, I took actions, you know. And then, yeah, in the other hand, seeing where we were when my dad passed away, I always wondered what would he be like if he was around? If he could turn around and see us, what would he say?
How would he feel? I mean, he's always... And I miss those moments that I replicate our family a lot. Growing up, we never have to eat at the dining table like this. We didn't have a dining table. But for the past year, I've been replicating that. Like I will have nice house with table, dining tables. And sometime I will get there and then regroup everybody in the table. And then even though I don't speak, I look at that table and know that somebody is missing.
There's one person missing. You know, we could have been... the, to, to, to make that a perfect table, you know, even though it's quite, uh, enjoyful to be with those who are there, it's still like a blessing to have them. Um, but it's the sad not to have one person there. You start dreaming at that very young age, you start dreaming of a different life. And I was reading that you were pretty obsessed with America. You were signing your signature San Francisco?
No, like obsessed. I love America. I always love America. Like since I named myself American Boy. I give myself a nickname of American Boy. When you were young? Yeah, like kids around would call me American Boy because I tell them that's my name. And at 17, you said that you left that small town. Is it called Betty? Betty, yes, the village. And that's the village that you left. And you moved to a different town. You went to Cameron's largest city where you started boxing.
City, yes, Douala. Why did you leave? He wasn't at 17. At 17, I left, I abandoned school because I couldn't continue. Ah, okay. So you left school at 17? He was at 22. Okay, so 22, you decided you wanted to move city. Yeah. Had you ever been to a gym before? No. When was the first age you went to a gym? A boxing gym? Yeah. Kind of. 22. 22. Yeah. When I left the village to go find one, Why did you end up leaving Cameroon? And what age was it when you left Cameroon?
I left Cameroon, I was around, I was 26. Around 26 when I left Cameroon. Why did you leave? Where? I knew that I couldn't make it there as a boxer because I started boxing and I know the reality there. I know the truth. Even before I started boxing, I knew the reality. I knew that it can happen there. You know, I need a big stage. I need somewhere that there's more boxing is well developed. Where did you want to go? First, it was always America.
But from Cameroon, there wasn't a way to come to America. I wasn't going to swim to the Atlantic Ocean. So the easiest way, the more paved way was to go to Europe. So April the third, you're 25, 26 years old. 2012, which doesn't feel like it was that long ago. 2012 is when I left. It was 2012. Yeah. That's when I left. That's when I left my secondary school. And at that time you were leaving Cameroon. Yes. And your objective was you were going to try and get to, to Spain or get to Europe.
Yes. So you were going to walk from Cameroon to Europe. It wasn't work. I mean, from Cameroon, I was in Douala. I took a bus to Yaounden, then I took a train, the train to North Cameroon. And then we took like a, we started to take like a, how do they call it? Like a lorry? No, no, no. Small car that, you know, they know how to avoid police station and all those stuff on the road. So that's how we get from Cameroon, North Cameroon to Yola in Nigeria.
And then Yola to Kano and then Kano, Niger and... So you traveled from Cameroon to Nigeria to Niger, to Algeria, to Morocco. Yeah. And then how did you get through the Sahara Desert? We were lucky. Our group didn't have so much of a trouble, even though it was 25 of us in the back of a pickup truck. Yeah, but we made it. The truck didn't broke up. We get it all day safe. People died going on the bussard. Oh, yeah, a lot. Like all the way, you will see like skeletons around.
Skeletons. Skeletons in the desert and just look all the way, all the way. Like, no. You'd see skeletons and look away. Yeah. How do you afford, where does the money come from to go on this journey to get out of Cameroon and to try and get to Europe? Because it must cost money. Yeah, from the beginning, the beginning is not so hard because it's something that you prepare for for years. You don't just wake up one day and go like this. You prepare for, you don't know how much you need, but you know that the much that you can have, you can use it to go.
So I have some savings that I've been saving for a little while. I took some with me and I gave some to my little sister to keep it ready in case I call because I didn't know where I was going. And then we have heard that there's a lot of smuggler on the way. So you better don't carry all your money on you. So as much as you're going, you're gonna call and then they will send money until it's over. And then you start to figure out on your own. What is the, you say it so casually, but what is the reality of that, of that journey?
You know, I was reading that you were drinking at times, drinking water that had dead animals inside the water. Yeah, when we first crossed the desert, we get to South Algeria, in Tamaracet. We found a water well, and it was almost dry, and there was a little water that was there for, I think for months. There was dead animals, and all the leaves, everything was inside the water. But we were so dehydrated because our water finished in the desert like hours ago.
So at time, the water didn't look good at all. It was pretty bad, but I think the philosophy right here was like, okay, whether I drink the water and if he has to kill me, he kill me later or I just die now by dehydration. I think when that's the only two choices, it's easy to choose one. Die now or die little, little. What does all of this experience do to you as a man in terms of your resilience and attitude towards life? You probably don't even know because you just are the way that you are, but you must see that you're different from other people in the Western world.
I think in general, in Africa, we are quite different to the Western world. We have more, not that in the Western world people don't have hardship, but we have more Mostly, most of us, we have hardship and toughest one for the most part, you know, like because in the Western world, you will not see, it's not very often that you will see kids that have experiment famine, you know, like going to sleep without eating or something. I think the West is more designed to stay away of those kind of trouble.
You might not have home, but you can still have something to it. But in Africa, most people, they will not even have that. And then the good thing, and I think the difference that I found so far is that in Africa, you know from your early age that you are not counting on nobody. You are not expecting anything from anybody. It's all on you. And as long as you get that, the rest of your life gets better. because you go out there and figure it out.
But you go in a lot of Western country, and then even though coming from where you come from, you see that there's a lot of opportunity, and people are still there sitting complaining, we don't have this, this should be like that, this should be like that. You'll be like, man, this is more than all what I need. because you're at the point that you don't just need what can be given to you. What could be given to you is just a way for you, a bridge to help you get where you're going because you have set your goal way beyond what you can get.
How long does it take you to get across the Sahara Desert? Across the Sahara Desert itself, it took one day. We didn't stay. Again, we were lucky. Our car didn't broke up. So they drove for about, I think, 20 or 22 hours or so. And eventually you get to Morocco and from Morocco you need to get to Spain, which is difficult. That was the toughest part. I spent almost one year in Morocco. Trying to get to Spain. Yeah, trying to get to Spain. I did a lot of attempt in the water and also in the fences.
When you were living in Morocco, where were you staying? wherever you find in the desert, in the forest. It depends on like what you're looking for, you know. For example, if you want to go to the fence, try the fence to escalate the fence, which is in Melia for the most part, then you have to stay in the forest of Gorogo. It's like living in the forest between trees, you know, and then you hunt. What are you eating? what you're eating, everything that you find.
Sometimes there are people that can make traps and get some animals. But for the most part, we will wait nighttime to go to the market because the police is always around, you know, the undercover police. We will wait for nighttime, go to the market, go to the market trash, and then find like... Rotten stuff like that they threw away, whether it's tomato, potatoes, chicken legs, because they didn't eat chicken legs. It was the best thing for us.
So we will find stuff like that in the trash and go back in the forest and try to make a meal when we don't have money. At that time, were you trying to figure out, learn how to get to Europe? Were you trying to learn the best way? Because I can't imagine, or did someone tell you how to get to Europe? There is a lot of people there that is trying to do the same thing. It's not just you. You left your house by yourself. But by the time you get to some point, you start meeting people that are in the same journey.
And by the time you get in Morocco, there is a lot, hundreds of people. Are you training at the time? Are you trying to stay fit? Yeah, sometime in the forest. I mean, you have nothing to do. You will do push-up. You will do some abs. But otherwise, what would you do? And you were still dreaming of being a boxer, even though you were in the forest? Oh, yes, that was the thing. I mean, that was my motivation. I think if he wasn't about that, I wouldn't have left my country.
He was just about that. I never thought about anything else. So that was the reason why I left. How did you know you'd be good at it? I didn't know. But he was about to find out. I didn't know at all. I had no idea. I could have been very bad. I could be good. So he was just about to give it a try. And if it doesn't work, then at least a try, I think is the most important thing, is to try and give it all. And if it doesn't work, then, well, we reset.
There's two ways to get to Spain. You can go over the wall or you can go across the water, through the sea. Yeah. And across the water could be very... Dangerous. Dangerous and difficult sometimes. I tried a couple of times. Did you try the wall? Yeah. The barbed wire? Yeah, I tried the barb. I have a lot of scars on me, a lot of barbed wire scars on me. Really? Those are barbed wires. You see my fingers? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Split my finger in two, like on my skin.
You will find on my stomach here, on my feet. I fell. I try. I have a lot of that. I tried to, I attempt in the ocean like six. I fell six times. What happens when you try and go over the barbed wire fence? Do they catch you? Where the spot that we pick, because it's about like 12 or 14 miles of fence with barbed wire. So we will have like an outlook guy that will go walk around all those fence and then like trying to identify a spot that there is not.
too much barbed wire, or that the barbed wire has fell, and when there's not a lot of guard, because there's guard on the Moroccan side, and there's guard on the spin side. And some way there's like three fences, and then barbed wires on like maybe the first one or the two, there is not a chance that unless you can fly, you cannot go there. And it's like seven meters high. Seven meters high. Seven meters high. So it's not possible with barbed wires.
Without barbed wires, yeah, that's good. But, and then they clean, they're surrounded of fences. So the guy has to stay like far from the distance to try to identify if there's a failure of barbed wire somewhere, you know? So it's very difficult. And on, there is a police, a Moroccan, on the Moroccan side, there is like a boxes of a guard. Mm-hmm. in like an interval, I don't know, maybe 20 meters. Every 20 meters there's a guard. Yeah, 20, 30 meters, there's boxes of guard.
Sometimes some boxes can be empty, but from where we are, you don't see. Need somebody to go there like a week every time, read everything, monitor the, all the information, you know, like the post, the guard, how they've been, The schedule? Yeah, how they're being changed because it's permanent, but one person doesn't stay there 24 hours. I think it's like eight hours. So you have, when he spotted a spot that there's not too much barbara, then he'll be like, okay, There's an outlook very far there.
There's an outlook from the spent side very far. And then these boxes, is there God inside? It might take him days to just find out if those boxes have God. Some day it's going to go by and then like... wait. They can stay in the same spot for like two days just to wait. And then when the truck comes to change shift. For the guards to change shift. Yeah, for the guard to change shift. And then he will see which box has the guard and which box does it have.
§02Transcript — part 2
And then... what time they come and this, what time they go. If they pray, what time they go to pray. And you need all those information before prepare the attack. And eventually you prepared an attack for the fence. Yeah, and sometimes you prepare the attack, you see all those, you collect all those information, then as you are getting closer to the fence, you realize that there was a barbed wire. You couldn't just see from where you were at, you know?
Or that maybe there's someone that is in the floor, they dig like five meters long like this, wide, and then they throw barbed wires all the way. Then you ran, you ran, you ran. by maybe 30 meters or 100 meters, they can see you coming. They know that you're coming. Now you're taking advantage because you're in a group of people. And then you get closer, and then you find like five meters barbed wire. You can jump five meters. It's not possible, you know.
So what did you do? You ran back? You run back or some, by the time you run back, if it's a group of you, some people will fall in the bar wire because they didn't see. Or maybe you're in the front line, you see, but you can't go back because there are people, a mass behind you coming. The bar just push and then you fall inside the bar wire. Did you ever try and climb the fence? And did you get caught? Yeah, I tried to climb a fence. I get out of those barbed wires on the floor once.
And that was the time that I fell in the barbed wire. I tried to climb the fence, but the barbed wire on the fence was... Painful. Big, like I was trying to hold it and he was just catching my face like . I'm like, oh, okay, I see. So, and I get to the point that I'm like, you know, I'd rather be alive without being in Europe instead of being dead in Europe. Like, wait, it's gonna be another time. It's not possible. So you eventually decide that you want to go via the sea in a boat.
You're going to try and take a small little dinghy. Yeah, that was, I mean, even before I tried the barbed wire, the first thing that I tried, it was a boat. And why did that not work? I mean, it's not like the boat is a small inflatable boat that you can use in your swimming pool, stuff that they use in the swimming pool. We call it a dinghy. You can put it in the swimming pool. You get it in Walmart. In Walmart. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that's a, you tried to cross from Morocco to Spain in one of these small inflatable boats.
You couldn't swim? No, I don't know how to swim. But guess what? I ended up being a captain. Captain of the what? Of the boat. Because it's still need a captain. It's still need somebody to organize, somebody that knows how to paddle, somebody know where we are going, somebody know how to organize for 10 people to get in the same boat going from the ground to the ocean and then how they get all those organization. And then I practiced. I did it so many times that I became an expert.
And I still don't know how to swim. You tried six times to get across. What happened in those six times? Sometimes we get caught. The majority of time we get caught. And what does that, what happens if you get caught? They send you back to the desert. They send you back to the desert? Yeah. To the desert. Not to Morocco. No, you are in Morocco. You get caught by the Morocco guard. Yeah. But then they just bring you back to the city or something.
No, because they have been financed to protect people from aerial border. They have been financed by European Union or something like that from holding you guys down there. So every time that they catch somebody, they make a report of that person that, okay, we caught somebody and then we send them back. out of Morocco. They will just bring you to the Algeria border in the desert and throw you guys there and you will figure out your way. So they throw you back in the desert without food every time you got caught?
Yeah. I mean, it's pretty, pretty horrible. Why is life? And even today, there's people out there doing the same thing. And even though it's getting harder and harder, I don't know how to do, but I don't want to find out. It's horrible. So you would, but then you went back again and tried again for a seventh time. Why didn't you give up? You've tried the fence. The fence doesn't work. You've tried crossing six times in a small inflatable boat. That doesn't work.
Why don't you give up? What for? Give up, go back to Cameroon, maybe live in Morocco. What for? Go back to what? Didn't I get a job in Morocco? Why couldn't I? Why shouldn't I try again? It was all about trying. And I think like when your dream is so big, when you have something, it's hard to give up. You know, like you get to the point that you're capable of risking more for just a dream, which is something that a normal person would not understand.
Like I just ask myself now, like why didn't I give up at that time? Why do I keep doing this? Why did I take those risks? Because there was a moment that even now I think about it, I'm like, that was stupid. It was like a death sentence. You just get lucky from coming out there alive. But I took those decisions. Your dream was so big that he blinds you. You couldn't see anything else. except what you have, not what is in front. You cannot see anything in front of you except what you have in your mind.
You could only see what is in your mind. And regardless of what is in front of you, what the obstacle is in front of you, you can only see what's in your mind. And nothing could stop you. And what was that in your mind that was pulling you? Dreams. dream to make it, to go have that boxing career, set up a stability for me and my family, and my potential kids, so they don't have to go to what I've been through. You know, so I knew that if I gave up, I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror like this.
It would be a shame to live with myself. I couldn't live with myself. It was hard. You thought about it. You think about like, oh, maybe, maybe. There's not a way. What for? Like going back and then maybe not really have something to do and someday you see your child get sick and you feel powerless just as your parent were to you. No, that's not happening. And then the seventh attempt was successful. Yeah. Take me to that seventh attempt of getting across the sea to get to Europe.
You get in the boat, there's you and a couple of other men. You start paddling. The sixth attempt was close to the winter. Okay. We get caught. And I was this close. We were already on the other side. We get caught by an army. It wasn't even like the... I don't know how, the Coast Guard. It wasn't even the Coast Guard. It was the army with a big ship, and they were just passing by, going somewhere. After three hours inside the ocean, we were paddling.
We knew that we are getting there, and then we get caught. Back in Morocco, they knew that we are gone. We made it. And then at that time, he was like, Close to winter, the winter was coming. The water wasn't stable anymore. We couldn't attempt anymore. And for me, he was that. I tell myself that the day that I'm touching the ocean again, I'm not coming back. I don't know exactly what I was willing to do, but I'm like, it's not happening. This is it.
You know, my frustration was top to the level. So we're, We recruit back in the forest, trying fences or just stay there during the winter because the water, I mean, yes, you can try some crazy stuff, but only when you see that there's an ounce of a chance. But when you look at the oceans, the big monster rising up with those waves you know that you cannot go through, there's no way. No, you can't do that. You can't try. On a small inflatable boat.
And then it's cold. It's freezing. So I think what was even scary the most was the cold. You would just get frozen out there, you know. So I stayed in the forest for like months, months. And once, when the winter was touching the end, I had a friend that people, he was in Tanshe. And then he reached out to me. He said, I have a ship. Let's go. I couldn't leave Tangier. I did everything. I got to the bus station, and there was so much police. I didn't want to end up in the desert in Ujda.
I'm like, OK, just... And then the next day, we are running from the police from 4 a.m. to like maybe 4 p.m. We came back to our spot. I opened my phone. I saw like 12 missed calls. I checked and then he was like, Ito made it. Ito was the guy that was calling me. I'm like, damn, I could have been making it too with them. Did they get, they got to Europe? Yeah, they got to Europe. Like bro, come on. I couldn't sleep there anymore. And I have a lot of call and people was like, yes, we want you to be our captain.
You're this, that, that, that. I'm like, I'm going, you know. And I didn't want any promises like, oh, we're gonna do this, buy a boat in one week. No, I have a guy that we've been talking for a long time. He said, I have a boat already. I'm like, let's go. So you get on a boat, an inflatable boat. I heard that you wrapped yourself in silver foil. No, no, I didn't, but I was planning. We put a life jacket, though. The one thing that we are very strict about is a life jacket.
I didn't, because over time, you learn a lot of stuff. And you know that those silver foil would deviate radiation from like, you know, they have the radar. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So if you wear the silver, then the radar can't find you. Yeah. The radar can find you. It can see you because when the radar is going like this and then he see like, I think it's infrared or something. And then he see movement, he will like, peep, peep, peep, peep, peep, peep, peep, peep.
But when you have that silver foil, they can't see you. So that time, tell me about this successful journey. You get in the boat, not you and a few other men. No, we didn't get in the boat. I went to Rabah, which there were. What's Rabah? A city. Okay. I went from Nador to Rabat to meet them. Like, okay, when are we going to Tangier? Because I've been living in Tangier for so long until winter that I went back to Nador. So they are living in Rabat, which is kind of like a city.
And they have those little job of construction. I'm like, when are we going? I meet them there and like, okay, let's go down. Oh, we are still working. We are going to get paid on Saturday. And this is what went. Like, I think this was like Tuesday. I'm like, bro, I'm not staying here until Saturday. Bro, my blood was boiling. I'm like, man, I miss this. I could have been making it with the other guy that called me. So we... Their leader, the head guy of the group, he said, OK, then I'll go with you.
Because I was a captain, I need to go and check the place and everything. So I'll go with you. The rest of the people, they can wait until everything is good. We give them a sign so they can come. We move. By the time we touch ground, we are stepping down off the bus in Tangier. I got sick. I got a fever. and we are going to this house inside mud. We have to take our shoes off, walk inside mud to get into this house to sleep, something like that.
And I was sick, bro. But I can't tell anybody that I'm sick. I'm the captain. And people saw me in Tangier, I'm like, wow, this guy is here, he's going to make it, he's not coming back. So they are trying to bribe the guy that I was to get them in the group. And I'm like, no, we collect the money together to buy the boat so I can take anybody out of it. And I'm like, no, we collect the money together to buy, And I'm like, if, because they call me Van Damme.
They say, if Van Damme is the captain, you guys are not coming back. You're going to make it. And I was sick. Nobody knows. So long story short, we've been there for like a couple days, and I didn't even have any money to eat. And then, but I check internet every day to check the weather. The weather. to see how the ocean is. And he wasn't so stable. And I found one day, I think it was Tuesday, and he was the second, April 2nd, 2013. And I said, this day is good, because this is the speed of the wind, this is the direction of the wind, this, this.
I know that thing. I don't know how I know it, but by the time I knew it properly, I was a captain. So I say, tell your guy to come this day because we are leaving. By the time they come with the boat, we are not sleeping here with the boat. We have to just be going with the boat because it's a very, even the police, when they like bus into houses, they will search for that. Mm-hmm. And they came. We get to where we were going, next to where we were going.
But the police car was up there. So we couldn't inflate here and then put the raffle inside the ocean without them seeing us. Now we have to make a detour. All night long, we make a detour to go somewhere in the front. And even though I was sick, usually, captain, you don't carry staff because they protect you for the big action, for the main action, which is inside the ocean. And then while we were making these detours, some people are being left behind on this.
I'm like, bro, where is the boat? Where is the raffle? They say, oh, it's here. It's to this guy. I'm like, bring that raffle. If you stay back, stay alone. Don't stay back with the raffle. take that thing. I'm like, if somebody wants to go, he has to catch up with me. I just lead the way and keep going. And all night, we go up and then finally go down to the step and find a place. And it was all rocks. And I'm there You know, we used to go to where?
To the beach, so there is sand. It's easier because like when you walk to the sand like this to go inside water and every footstep get you deeper and deeper. Now you are in the middle of rocks and then the ocean is there. You don't know how deep is the ocean there and how you're going to get in that ocean. You can just jump like this to get in the ocean. And then the wave was so strong. I'm like, damn. Was it nighttime? Yeah, early in the morning.
Okay. Because we are waiting, we are aiming to do this when they call for 5 a.m. prayer. Okay. Yeah, but we get a little late because of those day two. But I'm the captain, I'm the one that everybody's expecting on me. And he was nine of us. So as I tell them, OK, wait me here. Let me find a place. You know, when something is yours, it's yours. I walked around and I get somewhere in the mirror of rocks. I found a spot just bigger, as big as this table, enough to inflate the boat, just enough, no more than that.
And it was like this, clean. I touch it, there wasn't anything sharp on it, just like that, enough. I went back and called the other guys. I'm like, let's go. They came like, okay, let's inflate the boat. Eventually, the boat gets in the water, you go. Yeah. And the boat is rescued by the American Red Cross. By the Red Cross. Don't know if it was. We know there was a Red Cross base in Spain, in Tarifa. So did you get to, you got to Spain? We didn't get there, but we know that there's a Red Cross inside the ocean.
In fact, we have their numbers. So you knew there was a Red Cross there. Yeah. So you got close to Spain. Yeah. And then the Red Cross came and got you. We get far from the Moroccan coast, but we don't know where is the limit. But we just get far from this coast and then trying to get as far as possible inside the ocean and call. But the problem is that you're in the middle of the ocean, and even though it's where lands, the closest distance of the two continents, from this side you can see the other side, but in the middle of the ocean, when they say, where are you, what are you seeing?
You can really give them a direction. So sometimes, because their goal is just to rescue you, their goal is not to bring you to Spain. And if they cannot find you, they will even call a Moroccan course guard for help. And if you know your luck in day, you get fined by a Moroccan course guard, you know where you're going. You're going back to work. So we paddle like for one, I think it was like hour and a half, almost two hours. And then there was a helicopter in front of us.
And he was standing there, like he was looking about something. And I tell the guy that, OK, this is not a good sign. Whether this helicopter can play against us or it can play for us, what we do, call. We call now. Because if they ask, what are you seeing, we will see the helicopter is right above us. And then we call. So you called the Red Cross? We called the Red Cross. You called the Red Cross? Yes. And what did you say? For the restroom. Oh, we are inside the ocean.
We need help. And then I don't know who pick up the phone and start to ask if we have a yes, how many people? Do you have ladies in the boat and this? I'm like, what the hell is this problem? We are human beings. And I'm like, yes, we have ladies, even kids. We didn't have kids, we didn't have ladies. I'm like, what's different that makes? Like, you will just let off us here because, like, yes, even kids. I say, okay, what are you seeing? We see the helicopter right above.
Say, okay, welcome in. And they found you? Yeah, and then right after that, it started raining. and the water really get bad. He was moving. Now we are in the mirror of the ocean in this little boat, just like this table, and he's like going all... We get tired in the mirror. It was nine of us. How long did it take for the Red Cross to find you? Like 10 to 15 minutes. That's quick. Yeah. And they take you... Yeah. I think a little more, maybe like 20 minutes.
And they take you to Spain. And then when they find us, because now it was a little harder to find us because it was raining and the ocean wasn't stable. You know, when the ocean is stable, you can see something from far away. Now... there's something crazy that happens inside the ocean. Like from the coast, the ocean is flat. When you get inside at some point, bro, ocean has mountain. Like there's a way that you're climbing and then until you get to the peak and then there's a way that you're going down inside the ocean.
I don't know how it works, but it's exactly like that. And you can see like a huge mountain inside the ocean. And they took you to Spain? Yeah, they found us and then took us in their boat. They have a real boat, you know, like solid big boat. They took us inside and then brought us to their headquarter, which is in Spain. And you stayed in Spain in a detention center in a cell with 10 or 20 other men for two months? Yes. It was like, I think, 53 days.
How were you treated? treated, we were eating, but it was a prison though. It was quite a prison. I think you get to the point that you're like, maybe they should have just let us inside the ocean or maybe we were better in Morocco because you are locked, you can do anything, you're you realize that you had freedom even though your life wasn't the best that's when i mean you're here you're getting fit every day but they tell you where when to eat when to shower when to go sleep when to go out and everything And after a couple of weeks, it started to become hard.
Because at first you're excited. I'm like, oh, I made it. You're excited. I'm in Spain. I'm in Europe. But after a couple of weeks, I'm like, come on, man. I need my sentence now. Because you had a fake ID at one point and if you... Oh, no. When you get caught, you make sure that you don't even have a receipt or whatever on you. So you threw it in the water? Oh, yeah. When did you throw it in the water? When you saw the Red Cross come? No, when you're sure that the Red Cross will get you.
Because otherwise, that will be your way out in Morocco. Sometime he can prevent you not to be thrown in the desert. When did they... They released you from the detention center in Spain. Yes. Eventually, after almost two months. And they gave you 50 euros. Yes. No, not from the detention center. There is an association that come, charity for refugees, some organization that are out there. So they will come, take you and then bring you to their place.
And where did you want to go? What was the plan? So you're now in Spain, you're free, you've got 50 euros. So my plan, first of all, was to go to, first I wanted to go to the UK. But I knew that even though I'm in Europe, the free circulation in Europe will not allow me to get in the UK because they are not in that zone, in the Schengen zone. So I think I started for Germany because I wanted a place that boxing was big. But for somehow I was in a group of people that most of them, they were like, oh, we are going to France, oh, Champs-Élysées, oh, this, oh, that.
And in the 9th of June, 2013, 26 years old now, you arrive in Paris. And I read that on your first day in Paris... You figured out where to eat, where to sleep, and you found a boxing gym. Where did you sleep when you arrived in Paris? In the parking lot. You slept in a parking lot? Yeah. How long did you sleep in the parking lot for? Like two months. For two months you slept in a parking lot? How did you, how did you, so you arrive in Paris, you're sleeping in a car park.
How do you find a gym, pay for a gym? Oh, next day, I was after it. So I finally get where I could start that dream that I've been having for a decade. What do you do? Do you just walk up to the boxing gym and say, hey, can I come here for free? Yeah. Yeah, basically what I walked in the front desk and they gave me this form and then I saw the price and everything and I couldn't afford it. Then I'm like, can I talk to a coach, to the boxing coach?
And the lady said, the boxing coach is not there today. But. He has his substitute, he's there, you can talk to him. I just explained, straightforward, like, okay, I arrived in Paris yesterday, I don't have where to sleep, but what I want, I want a place to train, so that's why I wanted to see a boxing coach, if he can let me train here, because I have no money. I have nowhere to sleep. I have nothing. But the only thing that I'm asking for is a place to train because I want to become a world champion.
Straightforward. That was it. And he said, if you have a phone number, give me your phone number. I'll speak to a boxing coach. He'll be here on Wednesday and I'll give you a call back. That's how I gave him my phone number, I had a phone. And then on Thursday morning, he called me and he said, yes, I spoke to the coach and he agreed that you can come and train. And the next training is Saturday. And that's how it started. Didier Carmont? Yeah, Didier Carmont.
Didier Carmont was that man that you met that day in the boxing gym that gave you a chance and he let you train for free. How- He speak on my behalf to the coach who let me- Let you train. Yeah. And he gave you a new pair of shoes. I read that he gave you keys to an apartment to sleep in as well. Yes, after like two months, he gave me a key. He has like one apartment that he was, I think was Airbnb or renting out and then he get free for a couple of years.
And at that time, I think he knows me a little bit more and he gave me that apartment for almost two months. He changed your life, didn't he? Because if he hadn't have said yes, if he hadn't have introduced you to the person, if he hadn't have helped you. He helped me a lot. He helped me a lot. Changed my life, I think is too much to say. But he helped me a lot. I mean, we were at the gym and then he knows exactly my situation because I was clear to him, telling him everything.
But other people at the gym didn't know. And in fact, he at some point even told me that you don't have to tell your story to everybody. They don't need to know your situation. Yeah. You know, like... Why did he help you? Why did he help you? Because he was kind. He just liked me and liked to help me. And he helped me a lot. It's because he didn't have a reason. No, he didn't. A lot of people will have expectation that maybe at time you will not know, but later on you will find out.
but he was just genuine. He never had, like, an expectation. You know, in fact, sometimes he's the guy that sometimes you will even call. He will not be around, shut down his phone and everything. He's always been like that. Because it was quite difficult to become a boxer in France without having all of the correct identity papers, he eventually suggests that you take up mixed martial arts as a way to make some quick money. And in 2013, 26 years old, you went to the MMA factory in France and introduced yourself to a coach called Fernand Lopez.
And within four months, I mean, he saw something special in you in terms of MMA. And within four months of that, you had your first MMA fight. Yeah. Yeah. What did you think when you first saw the sport of MMA? Did you, had you ever heard of MMA before? No. So, Didier was the first one to talk to me about MMA. I'm like, oh yes, you have a good striking if you do MMA. I'm like, what's MMA? Mixed martial art. Okay, good. Then what's that? Was mixed martial art.
So yes, it's like boxing with wrestling with this. I'm like, ah, I think I have seen that once on the TV. I was watching TV. I see something like that. Like, yes, if you have, if you learn some good wrestling, some takedown defense, a little bit of a grappling and this, I'm like, what's grappling? So explain the whole thing to me. And this is back in 2013, June 2013. And I'm like, bro, nah, that's not what I want. I want, you know, the Mike Tyson boxing, right?
So yes, I'm like, that's what I want. You fought five times in Europe before you were signed for the UFC, which is quite remarkable because a lot of people spend many, many, many, many years trying to get into the UFC. You fought just five times in Europe before you were offered a chance to fight in the UFC. I didn't even... I wasn't even planning to go to the UFC. But as soon as I started to fight in France, then it became very hard for me to have a fight in France.
People didn't want to fight me. Fight me. Why? Oh, they say I'm brutal. And now I'm like, it's a fighting game. I mean, the goal is to be brutal. And then I'm not having a fight because I'm brutal. I heard your coach, he actually posted on Facebook saying, asking if anyone in Europe wanted to fight you. That's true. Will anybody in Europe fight Francis? Yes. Nobody wanted to fight you? I mean, no anybody at that level. Because even though a lot of people didn't want to fight me, I was still unexperienced.
So it's not like they will just give me to anybody. But nobody either want to take a risk. There is not a gain for an elite fighter to fight me. He's risking of losing everything, but not quite a lot to gain. Were you aiming to be in the UFC? Because now you knew what MMA was. But when you started becoming an MMA fighter, were you trying to get into the UFC? No. How did that happen? I was just like, you know, training because I had time. I was jobless.
So I have all my time and I like to train. And I found MMA very exciting. I like all those stuff. So I was training boxing, MMA. And then I started to fight MMA. And sometimes... Maybe I'll have like a couple hundred year old fighting MMA. Who was very welcome at the time. So I'm like, let's do this. But that was it. And people keep saying, oh, if you improve your Jiu-Jitsu, if you do this, you're going to become a UFC champion. Like, then what?
I really like, I was so focused on boxing. And then, but I think like MMA came to me and gave me that opportunity. And then all of a sudden, I'm sure I have the UFC contract. How did that happen? How did that happen? Did they call you or your agent or your manager? So I think Fernando, a guy that was a manager at the time, Thiago Okamura. Okay. Yeah. And then he was the guy that was pitching me to the UFC. Okay, so your manager, your coach knew someone who was pitching you to the UFC?
Yeah, a manager. And then that's how I get the UFC contract. Where was your first fight in the UFC? Orlando. Orlando. Was that your first time in America? Yeah. It was the first time. And I remember I get there. And I'm like, okay. And there was somebody at the airport with a tablet with my name on it. And they picked me up with a Cadillac, brought me to the hotel. They hired a residency. They checked me in, brought me to my room. How did it feel?
Then I called home. I called my mom. I'm like, I don't know what it is, but I think your son has made it. No, no, no. I finally get to that, I mean, I get to America, basically. So that's what, because for so many years, America was the dream to get in America. And I get in America and in a big way, not the way that I get in Europe, because I get in Europe in the service door. I get in America basically on the red carpet. That was it. That was 2015.
2015. How much, that first fight, does that first fight make you rich? No. You didn't get paid much for the first UFC fight? Yeah, he was $10,000 plus $10,000 win bonus. And then with all the commissions, you got out with almost just half. But he wasn't about the fight. He was more about like, I think me coming to America and all the stuff, he was more than what I was making in the fight. That's nine years after you left Cameroon, you fought for the UFC heavyweight championship belt.
§03Transcript — part 3
And eventually you won that belt and you held that UFC heavyweight title. Yeah, but I lost, I fought before. Yeah, you fought quite a lot. Yeah. Yes, I fought in 2018. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but eventually you won. The same guy. Yeah. I lost. I've watched your career, so I've watched the journey and it felt like for the first start of your career, I don't know, it felt like maybe you weren't as focused, but then it felt like this other half of your UFC career, something had changed.
I was focused, it's just that I didn't, I never done sport before. I didn't grow up as an athlete, so I didn't know how they do. I didn't know how they train, I didn't know how they prepare for a championship. I didn't know anything. So I was just out there trying. And then in that fight, I did a lot of mistakes. And I learned from it. And I'm like, okay, the good thing, I might have lost this fight. But this fight will be the biggest fight in my career because everything that is coming after this fight, everything that I learned in this fight, I will implement that in my game, in my career from now on and it will be quite helpful.
You have the hardest punch ever recorded by the UFC, the equivalent of 93 horsepower. A smart car by comparison maxes out at 80 horsepower and they called you the predator. You did eventually win the UFC heavyweight title and you held it between 2021 and 2023. And eventually you left the UFC in January 2023 because of basically a disagreement with the UFC, with Dana White about, I guess, freedom and money? Yes, freedom and treatment. The way that I was being treated, I didn't like it.
Was there ever a moment where you... realized that you'd really made it. You know, you're a young man that come from Cameroon, walked, you walked your way out of the, you know, through Africa and then you got on a boat and went to Spain and then from Spain to Paris, then from Paris to America. And then you, you've reached the highest mountain, which is you win the UFC heavyweight title, which is like the peak of fighting. Was there a moment where you thought I've made it?
It's not like you reached the higher mountain, you know, Whatever mountain you are on top, there's always... Then when you get in the peak of a mountain, you realize there's another mountain that's higher. And you realize that what motivates you, what keeps you going wasn't the peak of the mountain, but it was the peak of all mountain. So then you keep... It's never a satisfaction. Even though you take a moment, I'm like, oh, finally make it to the top.
You know, you take a breath, but you know that you keep going. I think it's a mindset that you have and basically will not stop like... You don't have a limit. You don't have a place that you say, okay, if I get here, then I'm done. There's always something around. There's always something which is set as a higher mountain. But I think... What I do is to take time. I like to go home a lot and I like to go back on my path. Every step, every time I'll be there, I'm thinking of the moment that I was there, maybe 15 years ago, and he will feel like it was just yesterday.
And now we're trying to see like where I am today, you know, see the difference. That's exactly when I realized, because when I'm here, I'm just living like it's normal, like it's everybody, like he was just like this all the time. But when I get back, I connect with the past and then I realize how far the road has been. And you've really gone, I mean, it's been an incredible journey. Has your mother ever seen you fight in the UFC? Has she ever been there?
No, I tried. I tried to get her to my fight back in 2019. She couldn't get a visa. She got denied twice. And I'm like, okay, this is so stressful. I'm not doing it again. It was also embarrassing, stressful one. And even for her, it was very tough. And I'm like, okay, I'm not putting her to this again. There will be a moment, I think, if I set things up pretty good, there will be a moment that things will be easier for her to see me fight. Why are you fighting?
Why are you fighting now? I mean, the reason you left the UFC was because of freedom issues and you didn't like the treatment, you wanted to be free. The argument you had with Dana, you say that, essentially you weren't willing to comply with the system of the UFC where you don't really have the option to go and box and do other things. Dana White said that you're in a place where you wanted to take less risks and you wanted to fight lesser opponents for more money.
So we're going to let him do that. Is that true? Do you agree with what he said? He said you wanted to take less risks and fight other opponents, lesser opponents to make more money. I think if we have to spend time to talk about like what Dana White say, if it's true or not, we're going to spend a whole night here and then don't be okay with a lot of things. I think the situation was a little bit embarrassing for him. And then he was going to make a statement and find his way out.
Less of opinion. Like living my comfortable career in MMA that I'm quite comfortable into, to step into boxing to take the best for my first boxing match, which I never really do a professional boxing match. does that sound like an easy fight I mean I think he has to say something and those who know those who know know that he has just has to say something to get out of that situation what's the truth He didn't want to compromise. He didn't want to change.
And I feel like that situation wasn't good for me. And I tell myself, if that's the end, then let it be. I mean, in fact, I had no guarantee that the boxing that I've been dreaming of doing, I will have to do it. It will happen at the time. But I didn't just want to comply and do things that I'm not okay with, just because they let me with that one option to say yes with things that I don't like. That was the thing. I was very aware that that could be it, but he has to be on my term.
And even though he means like going back to Africa, you know, I don't know, farm. I love farming. I always love farm. And if that meant I had to go back and farm, I was okay with it. So I made my peace with myself at times, and that's why I stood with my decision. I turned down a lot of money that I didn't have at times. For the most part, I was broke. I was living out of loan. So, yes. You're the heavyweight champion of the world in the UFC. You're broke.
I mean, not that broke. When I say I was broke, I mean, for a heavyweight champion, I wasn't comfortable. Multi-multi-millionaire. Yeah, I wasn't comfortable. Were you a millionaire? Yeah. Maybe, but never made a million in fight. But... The most you made was £500,000? Except if I had accepted to sign a new contract, I would have been having a lot of money. But that contract was coming with a lot of things that I was fighting against. And that's why I didn't sign.
So I'm like, okay... Whatever this deal is, whatever this contract is, I'm fighting this contract off. Instead of renewing the contract and have more money and really have nothing changed, that means I'm setting myself up for another year in the same situation that I'm giving away all the power in a contract that is not giving me any power. The power you wanted was freedom. Yeah, it was freedom. It was a possibility to say, okay, this is no right.
You can't do this, you know, or you have to do this. You have, I mean, I need an obligation. I don't want a one-side contract. I don't want a contract that, okay, there is, I have no right. But on the other hand, the other side of the table has no obligation. So, in fact, the... I mean, I'm giving everything for nothing, just for money. I want some of that leverage. So you wanted to be able to decide and you wanted- Not like to decide, but I want at least some responsibility on the other side showing toward me.
I want some responsibility. For example, when I come to like say healthcare, For that level, for the money that I could have been making, for the money that I would have been making if I had signed that contract, I could have had any kind of healthcare that I want. But at the same time, I also want the guy on the other side of the table to take some responsibility. I'm like, okay, I'm giving you a healthcare, for example. So you wanted something like healthcare included?
Yeah. I want stuff like that. I want something like a guarantee. Since I'm making this as a living and I'm exclusive to you, you guarantee me that whenever I could fight, you find something for me, you're obligated to give me a fight. know that because if I don't sign a contract and you want me to sign and you want me to run out of money and crawl back to you because I need those money, then you starve me and not give me a fight. Okay, so you want you to guarantee.
Even though you know that I might need two, just because you know that I might need two or three fights to make a living, to keep up my lifestyle, Then you strengthen down to one fight. So I will be needing money and then will be forced to take a contract that I don't want just because I need money. So I want to make sure I'm super clear on this. You're, you essentially wanted a guarantee of fights within the contract so that you could live. A guarantee of engagement.
I'm giving everything. I'm giving up all my rights. Exclusivity. Exclusivity and everything. So you can't go and do anything else. But I really, yes, but you are not committed to anything. So, okay, so I'm the UFC. I'm not committed to anything, but you have to give up your exclusivity. Yeah. And I'm not even guaranteeing that I'm going to give you- And then some exclusivity in that contract, say, in perpetuity. Forever. Yeah. So exclusive forever in certain situations.
But at the same time, you really have no duplication. but I have no responsibility or obligation to give you anything. So it's really one-sided. Yeah. Okay. So if you decide not to give me a fight for two years, I can say anything. And you'd starve. But if you call me and say, oh, you have a fight in, okay, I have a fight. I want you to fight in one month. And I'm saying, oh, I'm hurt. Then you have a right to say, okay, I extend your contract for six months.
Oh, okay. So if you turn down a fight, then they can extend the contract. And it doesn't matter the reason. for any reason. So you could be sick. And there's nobody will be consoled for that. If that's fair or not, they make the decision. So you, so I could know that you were sick and I could offer you a fight knowing that you couldn't take it and that would extend the contract six months. So you decided to quit and you knew that when you quit, you could lose everything.
You, there was no guarantee that you could go. There's not a bigger fighting league. I decided to leave, not to quit. Okay. You decided to leave. Um, and when you left, did you have a plan? No, really. How do you feel about the UFC now? I don't know. I think they do business how it's good for them. They do a good business for themselves. I just wanted to do what's good for me too. And you went on to do the impossible once again in your life because, you know, many people thought that maybe you were gone now.
You were gone from fighting. But then after that, it was announced that you'd be fighting Tyson Fury in a boxing match who is the world heavyweight champion of boxing. And by many people's account, you know, I watched the fight as well. I stayed up in the UK and watched it. You beat him. You didn't beat him on the scorecard. But I think in every sense of the word, you beat him. And for that fight, you got paid, I read, many times more for that one fight than you got paid in your entire UFC career?
Yes. From one fight with Tyson Fury? Yeah. And even in my... He would have been a Tyson Fury fight or he would have been a PFF fight. I knew that from that moment, every fight that I would make, I would be paid more than what I've been making in my entire career. Why? Because... my last years in the UFC, I could have been making more if I have accepted the contract. So I basically left a lot of money on the table in order to get my freedom. I bought my freedom, basically.
You know, they say that freedom is not given. It's not given. Freedom is not free. You have to give something in order to get that. So that's why at that point I made some less of the money because I refused. I turned down a lot of money. But it worked out. It worked in the end because you got paid more in that fury fight than you ever got. Lucky I. Yeah. And then I read that for the fight with Anthony Joshua, you earned about 15 million pounds, which is almost $20 million.
True? I don't know. I haven't counted. So I can, I can say if it's true. This is, I mean, it's not true. It's not true. Yeah. But you earned a lot of money, right? Yeah. Life-changing amounts of money. What's life-changing? I don't know. I'm enough money to just... 1,000 can't change life, depending on where we are standing from. You're speaking from my side or from your side or from whose side. You give $10 million to somebody, it's just another $10 million, and he won't change anything in his life.
And you give $1,000 to somebody, he changed his life. He saved his life. He would take that $1,000, maybe send his kid to school or maybe buy them some medicine, save them from illness or something. So life-changing money is not an amount. Why are you still fighting then? Because you don't need to fight. Why I start fighting? You have to fight. In order to know why I'm still fighting, you have to know why I start fighting. Why is that? I love fighting.
You're not doing it for the money? No. When I started fighting, there wasn't the money. I fought a lot of fight for free that I had no, not a penis. And what is your goal now with fighting? You've done it. I mean, you've done it. You did the UFC, you've done boxing. As I said, there's always a challenge. There's always like, could this be possible? Can I done this? Can I, you know, like, what's my limit? How far can I go? I think whatever we do in life is a shame if we end up not really find our full potential or not giving it all.
You know, I think I can give everything that I have, Then I go home. But as long as I still feel like I have something for fighting, I have something to give to the fighting community. I go to the gym, I get excited, I wake up, I think of training and I get excited like, oh, this is it. I still have that motivation, that fire in me. I think I keep doing it. I go to the gym, I train, I think like, oh, I learned something, I have some improvement.
Or there's something that I really want to understand how it works or want to master. Yes, I think it works like that. You have to remember that it's not just fighting. It's a martial art. Fighting is a martial art and martial art never ends. Before MMA came around, you will see people, character, Kung Fu, Taekwondo, they were doing it for like six, until they are 60, 70, 80, they are still doing it because it's a passion. When you left Cameroon, you had a really clear goal.
You had this vision, a really, really clear goal. What is that? To stand on top of the mountain. And you stood on top of the mountain. But there's the biggest mountain. What's the biggest mountain? There's always a biggest mountain. There's always a mountain ahead that is big. What is the big mountain in front of you now? What's coming? What is that? Another fight. Do you want to become the heavyweight champion of the world in boxing as well? That's never been my goal.
My goal was really because I was aware of the situation. My last fight, my first fight in boxing was less than a year ago, October 23. And I was, what, already 37th? It's not a moment in your life that you're expecting to have a career into a combat sport like boxing. You know, he was just like, okay, what can I do? And I think that question still stands. And even for MMA, I think there's still a lot of I've been doing even MMA for just like, what, 11 years?
And I think I still have a lot of things to learn, to experiment, to show in the fight. I think I still have a lot and I still have that passion. I'm a professional. I'm not very young, but I still have a couple years in front of me to be doing it. Because after this, you have to remember that after this, maybe by the time I'm 40, 42, then... I'm retired. What a early retirement. We only have that short window of a time. Then at 42, like it's a time that most people, a career just pick up, but we are forced to retire by that time.
So why would I just like do what I can do until then and see how far I can go? You fought Tyson. Many people think you won the fight. Incredible fight. You fought Ante Joshua. You lost that fight. And I think at the end of that fight, Anthony actually says, he says, you need to carry on boxing. You need to carry on going. And I think that's the sentiment that everyone has. No, I'm carrying on. I don't really take that fight as a note because not to say, I mean, You cannot, you will be a fool if you are going to fight, basically, in boxing, somebody like Anthony Joshua and don't think that you can lose, right?
Or trying to make an excuse of losing. If there is somebody that you can lose against in a combat sport, then he's somebody like Anthony Joshua, right? But honestly, on that fight, there was a lot of unfairness. You know, and then which might have been for something or not, but there was a lot of unfairness. Unlike the Tyson fight that everything was straight and I think nobody was giving me a chance. And then that everything was fair. No sneaky stuff.
But the second one, he was so messy. What do you mean? A lot of tricks. Like, they will get you everywhere that I was going in that week. I have to wait at least one hour, one hour and a half before the beginning or before Anthony Joshua arrived. But they always send a car to pick me up, like, that amount of time. Even the fight day. The fight day, I stay in the locker room for four hours and a half, four hours and a half. They sent a car to pick me up, pick up time, 10.30, because you're supposed to fight.
They tell me up front, I'm supposed to fight around midnight and 1 p.m. So pick up time. 1 a.m. Yes, and 1 a.m., sorry. Pick up time, 10.30. It's like, okay, good. It's how it works. It's that amount of time. Then you get in the arena. They're like, oh, yeah, there's a producer. Like, oh, we are running behind clock on the broadcasting, so we might be fighting at 1.45. OK, it's not that bad. I've been training to fight in that time frame, around 1 a.m. Bro, we are sitting there, and then, Watching Anthony Joshua arrive in the arena at 1.30.
Like, how come you tell me that, with you guys telling me that I'm going to fight around midnight and one o'clock or that he's delayed, I'm going to fight at 1.45. And then he's now just arrived. When he arrived, we know that it's about two hours before there is a fight. You don't get in the arena one hour before the fight. No, it's two hours. And stuff like that, they did a lot. Again, not to say I couldn't lose the fight, but... Do you think they were doing that intentionally?
Yeah. You think that? Yeah. I said the whole week, it was like that. They were wasting your time. I mean, I think it's a trick. I didn't know before, but I think it's a trick that they have in boxing. They have a lot of tricks. And in fact, like in the week, during the week, my coach Dewey, because he's a very calm person, and he was like, he get to the point that he was really mad and was yelling about it, like, no, this is how you do to get fighter tired.
And I'm like, no, it's okay. I didn't know how deep was the problem, you know. Until I get in the final set, then I'm like, okay, this is serious, but he was too late. Were you tired? Very tired. I was sleeping. You were sleeping before? Yeah. I don't know why. I don't know if it was Joseph Atik or whatever. I was in the locker room getting warm up and falling asleep and feeling asleep. So that's why like, personally, yeah, I take that loss, but I don't put it in the context.
You know, I think it could have be different. Do you think you could have beat him? I still think I could have beat him. I could have lost too, but not that easy. Yeah, things were so easy. Like, I wasn't, I don't know. Yeah. Did you feel like yourself? No. Not at all. Not at all. Hmm. But... I think it was my mistake. I shouldn't have done good in the fury fight. I think that was what I was expecting in the fury fight. for me to lose maybe in that fashion.
You have, you come out of the fight with Anthony Joshua and you go back to making plans for the future and then life shows how cruel and unfair it's capable of being when your 15-month-old baby boy Kobe passes away just a few months ago. I'm really sorry. Thank you. And it is the most unimaginable thing. Yeah. That's something that I never imagined. And all of the sudden, nothing really matters. all of a sudden you realize that you were complaining about a lot.
Instead of feeling blessed, being grateful, you were complaining about things that didn't work. But in fact, everything was working well. How are you? How am I? Yeah. A life, I mean, surviving, but not the same. I don't think you will ever be the same. And I can explain how in just 15 months, I mean, I still ask myself how in just 15 months, a kid or a person can take this much space and basically became you to the point that when he's gone, you feel like you're missing too.
Just 15 months. I mean, two years ago he wasn't there and now I was living good. He came and he left. And I felt like, I don't know, he's... It's a weird type of thing. Basically, like after what I was saying earlier, like my whole life was about to do, to fight in order for my family, not to go through those situations, not to feel powerless or useless in the situation. And for the very only person that I should fight for, I couldn't, I didn't even have a chance.
So sometimes only that idea is painful. You didn't have a chance. Yeah, he wasn't sick. We didn't have to take him to the hospital. Didn't have... Anything like that, you know, I wish I could have, like, you know, taken him to the hospital, find for a good doctor, like, make calls and do stuff, you know, feel like I'm useful. I'm playing. I'm useful, just as I always want to be. So that was it. Is it possible to, is it possible to, have you been able to grieve and process it?
How do they grieve? How do they process it? I never learn. I never know how it works. You just feel it. Some days you do with it. Some day you do without it. How, how do they deal with that kind of situation? There's not a process that they set up to learn how to go through. People will do it in different ways. And how long it takes to grieve? When did it stop? Whenever. You know, one of the big conversations in, um, I think that's become quite popular is the idea of mental health and our, and protecting our mental health and being aware of our mental health.
when something like that happens to you, it's the most, I mean, I've never, I don't have children yet, so I don't, I've not been through something like that, but I can just imagine the, the way that I try and imagine it is I have these wonderful nieces and nephews in my life. My brother is a year older than me, has three children and they're like my children in a way. And just the thought of something happening to them is the most, it's the most unimaginable, crushing feeling to me.
Um, And men in particular aren't very good at dealing with things compared to my partner, for example. She's very expressive, very emotional. She expresses how she feels. What do you like at expressing how you feel? You don't learn how to express. I think I found myself very emotional at some point. More than what I thought. You don't, it's not something that you commended, you don't control, just happen. And then you discover yourself. And you're still in that process?
Yeah. You discover your own self. You think you've been through a lot. You think you're strong. You thought you were strong. You realize you were narrow. How is your family? Your family, your mother, everybody else? Surprisingly, I think a lot of people are doing pretty good, better, which is for me a surprise. I always walk around like the toughest guy until now. Until now? Yeah. And I get to, you know, just being tired, just getting tired, being tough.
I think it's exhausting. Being tough means you have to pin through over and over to a lot of shit, which just not easy to deal with. Because people see you as a, you know, they see you as a tough guy, that's your, they called you the predator, they, you know. I don't know. I've been questioning myself about that lately. Yeah. That's why you see people trying to know somebody, pretend to know somebody. Meanwhile, they don't even know themselves. You can't know somebody who doesn't even know your own self.
You don't know who you are. You don't know what you can do, what can affect you, how you can deal with things that never happened to you. So you can't expect to know that about somebody. What have you been questioning in yourself? If I can deal with stuff. if I can handle stuff, been doubting about my capability of stuff sometimes. What are you talking about? In terms of dealing with stuff, handling stuff? Emotional things? Yeah. Like, um, Even emotionally, there are some days that you wake up and you think about stuff, about everything, and you're really like, what's the purpose, what's the goal, if it's going to end up like this?
What's the purpose of fighting if I end up not being able to fight for the only person that I can fight for? Let's talk about something else. Yeah, I'm sorry. What else do you get? Move on to something. I am, you're in Vegas at the moment. Yes, but I'm going home soon. Going back to Cameroon. Next week. Next week. What's the plan? I'm going to be there for a couple of weeks. I'm training now. I want to really make a purpose, have a purpose, make a sense of all of this.
And I think I'm going back to fight. So I've been training a little bit because like... I get to the point that I feel like I really need to push myself to get out there, start to think about something, find purpose, and that's what I'm doing now, training. And I think I should fight. I need to fight. I might fight before the end of the year. I think some MMA fight will be good to get back in the loop a little bit. before going back to boxing again.
You're fighting in a new league under a new promotion, which is very exciting. I saw the announcement. Yeah. I suppose to be fighting. No, I'm not fighting in the PFL Africa. I'm fighting in PFL Global. But yes, we launched the PFL Africa and they announced it the other day in Nigeria, in Lagos, Nigeria, with one of our new partners, Elios. So it's been good. And you're, it's about purpose now. It's about finding new purpose, you said. Yeah. Finding a reason, fighting for a reason, you know, something to fight for.
I think it's whether you make it a purpose to keep going or a reason to keep going or a reason to stop. But other ways, either way, he can serve as a reason. And your reason, your purpose, you're gonna get out there and find him? Yeah, I think my son was full of life. I think if there's one thing that he wasn't, he wasn't inactive, he was very active, was very curious about stuff, he was. And I think, The best way to honor him would definitely not be to quit or to leave things like that because of him.
I think if there is a way that he would like things to be done, was to serve as a motivation or to be a reason for things to happen. That's what you've always been, Francis. That's what you've always been. You've always been an inspiration. He's now an inspiration, I think. He's now your inspiration? I had so much in this kid. He was just 15 months old. But I had so many plans. I was doing this. I was preparing that. I was building a basketball court.
I was looking for a soccer clit of his size so we can go play soccer when he started. Because he just started to work when he's solid. We could play. Everything he become he became a goal. He wasn't like just a kid. He was a goal. Like I was excited waiting, you know, stay and it's time. Yeah. So fighting nights, the goal is to fight before the end of the year. So I'm training, I'm keeping in shape, but I have to go back in Africa a little bit. Is it easy to train at the moment or is it day by day?
It's day by day. I think, as I said, like there's some day like I don't just really want to do anything. I don't really care. And those are the days that you... I mean, that's what your heart tells you. Like, your heart doesn't really care about anything. Then your brain will tell you, be reasonable and tell you that to go. That's when you really have to. At that moment that you feel like you don't want to do anything, it's exactly the moment that you have to do something to get off of there.
Because those emotions will... They are pretty good at shutting things around you. Sometimes you just get, I don't know, in the bath and then just get stuck in there and then memories and stuff just get you stuck in there It's so sad inside that you don't even know that you can push the door and get out. So you have to do something, you have to keep. And then when you push the door, get out, maybe walk in the room or something, then it changes your mind and you're like, oh, this, pick something down.
§04Transcript — part 4
And then it helps change your mind. But if you stay in that bathroom, those same memories will run over and over and over. Have you spoken to a therapist at all? Or anyone that can help? Do they take a penny away? Or bring him back? I think it's a process that you have to go through. It's a pain that you just have to learn with. It's like having a handicap. You just have to learn to deal with. There are people today that live pretty good without hand or foot, which at first, or they get impudated, and they have to rehab to deal with it.
You've been an inspiration your whole life, your whole life to so many people. You now say that Kobe is your inspiration and he's the reason why. And your motivation. Yeah. And he's the reason why you are striving. He's the mountain. He's pushing you up a new mountain in your career, in this chapter of your career. And I'm really, really looking forward to seeing this season of your career play out. I hope I'll be able to do it. I just have to get out there and find out.
Francis, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest. So the last guest has left a question for you and they don't know who they're leaving the question for. And the question is here. When did you last realize that you had it all wrong? when my boy passed away. That was the moment that I realised that everything, I mean everything that's been my reason for fighting, fell apart. That was the moment that I felt that I really felt like I failed, You felt like a failure.
Yeah. I feel power, I feel... I just feel like I could've done something. Just that. Francis, I have to say a huge thank you. I have to say a big thank you. And I'm not just saying thank you from me, but ever since I heard your story that time in Paris when we're in that hotel, you put my life in perspective. You gave me gratitude that I probably didn't have to the same extent before because you've been through an incredible journey. And throughout that whole journey, you've got this perspective for life where you understand more than I ever did what's important.
things like family, things like principles. You've understood that more than I did. And you also, having gone through that entire journey, I didn't hear you feeling pitiful, complaining about the struggles you'd been through. And I reflect on the life that I've lived and the things that I'd dwelled on. And I thought, oh my God, this guy has walked out of... a really, really dire situation and built the most incredible life. He's climbed to the top of the mountain.
And it's funny because when you climb to the top of those mountains, you get there alone. What you don't ever get to see is that you've actually brought millions of people there too, because you've inspired them. And you've shown them, proven that they have no reason why they can't too. If Francis could, if Francis could go from Cameroon On that journey through the Sahara Desert, he tried to climb the fence, couldn't get over the fence, then went through the sea on the boat.
From Spain to Paris, from Paris to the USA, to the top of the mountain, to beating Tyson Fury. There is absolutely nothing that I can't do. Yeah, I think so. I think there's a lot. We set a lot of limit of ourselves by just like, oh, it's not possible, which again, we don't know what's possible or not. Yeah. Staying there thinking of what's possible or not does help, actions help. And sometimes you try, you fail. It's okay. You stand back up, pick your shit, reset, start again.
And then until you make it, and then once you really make it, and I'm like, oh, he's good, he's a genius. How did he know that this would work? He didn't know anything. Just keep trying, just refuse to give up. It's just like that. And it's something that, you know, because at some point, like, I feel like I need to succeed in order to prove everybody that was doubting at me, to prove them wrong. Because even like coming from where I came from, having the idea of boxing, bro, here was the worst thing that, the worst dream that you could have had.
Like, everybody, nobody believes in it, in the dream, not in me, but just in the dream, like, it's not possible. We can't come from where we are to get there. It's not possible. It's not mean for us. find something that is around us and get settled. They really thought I was losing it. Basically, when I let my little job in the village go to the city, I was 22 years old and I sold my motorcycle, I go to the store and buy gloves and stuff that I'm doing boxing.
Okay, this guy has gone to the top level of craziness. What the hell is this? And everybody doubted. I mean, even my mom say, like, you're my son. I always stand by your side even when you're losing it. Like now. Like, okay. At least I know that, you know. But on one day... It happened, I made it, and I'm like, wow, he's a genius, how do you know that it's gonna work? I didn't know. Just keep doing it, you know? So whatever you have, you can keep trying.
It might work, might not, but at least you will be in peace with yourself knowing that you have given it all. I think it's the most important. People are so afraid to fail. that they don't even try. And I think that's really the failure from not taking action. The failure is not actually the fact that you don't succeed in whatever you do. The failure is not taking action, it's not even trying. That's where you really fail. Francis, thank you. Thank you.
Thank you so much, honestly. It's the most amazing honor. And you're such an incredible person on and off camera. You're such a wonderful human being, but you're just the most tremendous inspiration. I've interviewed three, 400 people, but I've never ever encountered a story. You do that a lot. Yeah. As heroic as yours. I rather fight than interviewing people. Thank you.