George Heaton, Mike Heaton: The Heaton Brothers: From Horwich to Hollywood

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So I'm stood outside the shop in Manchester with my friend. I'm 24 or 25 years old. About two years ago, and this kid, apparently my age, pulls up in front of me in this big black Rolls Royce. There I am scratching my head, who the fuck is this guy? Dressed incredibly well, young, good-looking, apparently lives in the same city as me, but I've never met him before.

And my friend turns to me and says, "Oh, they're the Represent brothers. They run that clothing line." And this was the first time I'd ever heard about George and Mike Heaton, the brothers behind the world-renowned clothing brand, Represent. A streetwear brand born and bred in Greater Manchester.

And listen, this isn't just any old streetwear brand. This is a streetwear brand worn by the likes of 2 Chainz, the Kardashians, Justin Bieber. Justin Bieber asked if he could wear their brand and asked them to send him stuff. But the brand hasn't always been globally renowned.

The now 26 and 28-year-old entrepreneur brothers initially started Represent in their dad's back garden. And once they'd outgrown their dad's back garden, they moved into the house. And once they'd made enough money selling Represent out of the house, they got their own place.

They're now five years into running this business, and their annual turnover has increased from 1.8 million in 2014 to nearly 10 million in 2018. The brand is now stocked in over 160 outlets around the country: Harvey Nichols, Selfridges, you name it.

And this brand is different. And here's the context: we live in a world where everybody is making clothing lines. It's seen as the low-hanging fruit to being an entrepreneur. You just get a t-shirt and stick a logo on it, start an Instagram page, launch a Shopify store, and start selling. That's the world we live in. It's like the first business that everybody defaults to.

But when I look at Represent, when you look at the Instagram, when you look at what the brand stands for, they are just different. And I'm not saying this to kiss ass. I've thought this for the longest time. So I had to invite them on this podcast and find out what's driving that unique inspiration.

And when I heard that they were two brothers, that added another layer to my curiosity. What's it like running a business with your brother? Who does what? Do you argue? How do you overcome the hard times?

In this week's episode, we discuss the early days, how they started out in their dad's back garden, how their family took it, their friends, relationships, pros and cons, mental health, and everything in between. So without further ado, this is The Diary Of A CEO and I'm Stephen Bartlett. I hope nobody is listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

Mike and George, it's a real pleasure to have you here. I, as someone that's remarkably, uninspiringly dressed usually—I just tend to wear black because it's safer—I've really looked up to you guys as role models in a fashion sense because you've always—it's felt like from me looking from afar—that you've always had a very unique style.

And once I discovered Represent as a brand, I was super, super inspired to meet you because it's clearly got a very unique sort of perspective on fashion. And so it's a real pleasure to meet you today and to have you here. You're two entrepreneurs from the city that I started my business in as well. So there's tons of things there that I want to ask about Manchester and being business owners, etc.

But first, I guess the question is, how did Represent all start for you? I heard a story about a garage in your dad's garden.

Yeah. So, back in 2012, I was just finishing college, which was a BTEC graphic design course, which I'd done because Mike had done that and it looked cool. And the last project was actually to create something graphic-based that you could sell.

And at the time, we were working for our dad on the weekends and helping him sell minibuses. And that was what we didn't want to do. We wanted to sell our art. So this was a big push for me to actually start something that could create our futures.

So I took down a list of names that I liked, and "Representing" was one of them. And I thought, that's kind of cool. It's kind of like about us, how we're going to display the clothes. And then I just took the "ing" off and it became "Represent." And we screen-printed that onto 25 t-shirts which cost 150 pounds at the time. And it went from there, yeah.

And so where did the business start? Where was your sort of first office per se?

So, my dad had—well, actually, it was in my bedroom. I still have the stickers on my wardrobe cabinets saying Small, Medium, Large, XL to this day, which is pretty cool. But that's where it started, in my bedroom whilst I was going to university.

Every day I was packaging orders at 6 a.m., taking them to the post office, going to university, coming home, trying to design something, going to sleep, doing it all again the same day repetitively. Eventually, we got enough stock to move into a shed that my dad had in the back garden. Lovely shed, it's actually made of bricks, got windows in it, which is great.

No, so that was our first office. So we didn't have any outgoings because we didn't have employees and my dad let us use that. And eventually, that got swamped with clothes, and then the garage got swamped with clothes, and then the kitchen and the living room and upstairs was swamped with clothes. But my mom and dad absolutely loved it because we were making money doing something that we loved.

And how old were you at that point?

I was 19.

And you must have been 21? 21, yeah.

You know, I was going to wait and ask this question, but I really just want to ask it now. What's it like working with your brother? I'm sure you get asked this a lot, but Mike, maybe you can answer that?

No, it's good. We're like complete opposites, so it's a bit of like a yin and a yang type situation. George is more of a go-getter, "do it now," "make it happen." And I'm more of like a perfectionist type because I'm more the creative direction in the company. I care more about the product and the design.

From what you've said there, I'm guessing George is a little bit more impatient?

Very impatient. That is—I have zero patience, always have done all my life. That's just how it is. Mike has the most patience, so it kind of works because I create things, give it to him, and he'll finish it off.

And I'm interested in fashion. I just don't feel like I've got the time to invest in making myself look good. So I think this is part of the reason I just go for all black every day, because it's, you know, if it stains, no one's going to talk shit about me, etc., etc. But your clothing and the brand that you've created feels so unique compared to a lot of the stuff that I see on—from some of these sort of like Alibaba brands that are popping up on Instagram, where some guy from Love Island just writes a word on a shirt and says that the brand has meaning. How have you done that, and what's the sort of unique inspiration behind that?

I think when we was growing up as kids, we were different to everyone else in school, the way we dressed and what we listened to and the way we had our hair, and we just—we weren't in the same kind of culture of what the local communities were to us. So we had our own look all the way through school. And that kind of created the identity of the brand. What we want to wear is what we create. We don't make anything that we won't wear ourselves because our brand is our personal journey. Our inspirations are what we find around us, but we play it in a way that's different to everyone else.

And do you think that if you launched your brand today versus when you launched it, it would have had the same success that it's had? Because it's a slightly more saturated market.

At this age that I'm at now and with the knowledge that I've got? Yeah, we could recreate it, definitely. Definitely. We'd probably struggle for the first part because we built a core fanbase over the past so many years, which is always growing. But to then restart that again, it would be difficult, and everything's changed: the climate's changed, social media's changed, the way you sell things has changed. So, I don't know, it'd be good. I'd love to try it again anyway.

I think going back to that identity question, it'd still have a strong identity because we'd still be doing things that we can relate to in like the prints and the fits and stuff like that.

And because it comes from a really real place, it must be pretty easy to—

Yeah, there's no trend forecasting. There's no looking on other people's websites saying, "Oh, this looks cool, let's do this," which everyone seems to be doing now, and everyone's creating the same things. But when you're the creator of that one product, everyone knows who did it first.

On that point, you must get knocked off all the time.

Oh yeah, every day. I mean, Manchester's the hub of that. This is the city of knockoffs.

How does it feel?

I love it. It's like a backhanded compliment.

Does it piss you off a little bit?

Used to, back in the day. I used to retaliate to it, especially on like my Instagram stories.

Tell me what you did. Because listen, let's just full disclosure: on my Instagram, I get knocked off all the time, not to the same degree, because you guys are—I could not compare the shitty Twitter quotes and the videos that I make to like the art that you create. But I talked on this podcast about getting knocked off one day. This guy got 250,000 retweets for creating something that I made. And my—how I was triggered at the start, and over time how I've—me and my team have come to come to sort of at peace with it now because it's part of the game, it's an unavoidable part of this game. But talk to me about the first time you got triggered about being knocked off. You don't have to use names.

There was a brand, another UK brand, that would literally find our factories, use our suppliers, take the same cottons, make the same kind of clothes, and then put everything down five pounds to us. But like, people aren't going to buy that. People aren't going to buy something that's a rip-off of something else and slightly cheaper. If you're going to do it, it needs to be half the price and it still needs to be relevant to who you're selling it to, because the same customer's not going to go and buy yours if they've already seen it somewhere else for a similar price.

That brand never really frustrated me. The only things that do frustrate me are when it's an exact copy, where it's literally someone's bought our pair of pants, sent it to China, and stitch-to-stitch it's the same. Right. And then, yeah, I'll shout about it on my story, but as a funny thing, offset with laughing faces and—

There's so many young people that try and start brands. It's kind of—this question is kind of similar to the one I just asked. There's so many young people on my Instagram and in my friendship circle that one of the first things they think of doing, because it's a product that I guess is close to all of our hearts and it's something that we all, somewhere in our own egos, think that we can create and be successful at. They all try and start clothing brands. It seems like one of the first businesses everybody tries to start.

Yeah, it's like every man and his dog's got a clothing brand now. But like when we started, there wasn't that issue.

Yeah, that wasn't a thing. I think it came with time. It started us as like a merch thing for bands when we first launched. And then you see the waves of people coming, thinking they can do it, and more people do it, and then eventually some of those brands gained a traction. And then, yeah, everyone started it. Everyone asks—that's all we get DMs about every day is like, "What advice can you give?"

And so if I was—say I'm 23, and I'm like, George, Mike, I just want one tip, okay? And I'll give you a grand for the tip. I'm going to give you a thousand pounds. I just want one tip each on how I can succeed within the fashion world. Give me one tip each. I'll give you a grand each in this hypothetical question.

Make sure you're 100% passionate about going down that route.

And why is that so important?

You've got to live it. You've got to—everything—you've got to breathe it, you've got to sleep it, you've got to dream about it at night. You've got to be thinking about it whilst you're eating in the morning. You've got to be in the gym thinking about it. It's more of a dedicated lifestyle than it is just creating a brand that you can work on at night.

What about you, Mike?

Mine would just be like, stay true to your identity. Especially like in this climate now, people on social media reacting to trends straight away, they just lose in that. And that'd be a good thing to have now.

And on that point, George, that you said about really living it, how much of your life does Represent and running this business—

100%. Everything. Absolutely everything, isn't it? Yeah.

What's the biggest misconception? As—I'm going to go back to being that 21-year-old kid that just asked you that question. What's the—when I'm looking at your life on Instagram and I'm seeing, you know, you dress so well, you go to nice places sometimes I'm sure, I'm sat there—you've got a nice watch on, Mike. Really nice watch on.

What's wrong with the Apple?

Oh, I didn't see yours. It was under the sleeve. Also nice, Mike, if you're selling. And I'm seeing your life. What is the biggest misconception that I have as this 21-year-old kid that's about to try and follow you down that path? What's the—what's the biggest thing that I'm not seeing?

You're not seeing the work behind everything and how long it actually takes to produce that end result that is getting showed on Instagram. I actually now try to show everything. I take a videographer with me everywhere I go and show the process of the production and that six months of a collection being made to actually then putting out as a campaign and going on sale.

So I do try and communicate that myself, which a lot of brand owners don't do, because the fashion industry is so fast-reactant and so quickly to move on from things that that whole thing is lost. The process is lost. Like, you can go and look at an amazing Dior jacket in a shop. You don't know the process of how that's been made and what the inspiration comes from, because they're already six months ahead, showing a runway show for the next collection. So I try and step back and actually create a showing of what really goes into behind the products.

I think like how personal it is as well is a big thing that people don't realize. Like, yeah, you can create one or two products starting off, but then when it gets to like 150, and you're designing them products with like—they have to be things that you can relate to, you can draw inspiration from, you can resonate to. It's quite a personal thing, I think. People don't appreciate that as well. Because that's what I say when I say it's like art. You know, I can imagine—because your stuff is feels so unique. It's not like everything else that I see. So it's crystal clear that there's—it's coming from a really real place. It can become quite daunting, you know, when you think about it that way.

And in terms of sacrifice, people don't really get to see that either. What has the sacrifice been for you two, building this business?

Relationships. Family time. Everything gets sacrificed. I mean, we live the brand, but luckily not friendships, because I employed all my best friends starting off. That's how it became like a family-run brand, really, because we—we didn't really know what we were doing, and we didn't have specific job roles for people, and we never structured a business before. So we'd take people as we were growing and try and—they would learn along the way with us. So I've always got a strong group of my—like my core team is like my best friends.

That's really interesting. Not a lot of businesses would take that—

Everyone says that's the worst decision you could make and they have done from the start, but I love it.

What's the dynamics like when you're working with friends? Because I can only imagine working with my best friend, I think I would have probably suffocated him by now with—with a—with a pillow or something because we're—because someone—and it's almost the same thing with working with a brother: because you are so close, there's almost—and again, I'm just guessing—the professionalism barrier which is often demonstrated within a professional environment probably, I'm guessing again, isn't there. So it's like, if you piss me off, you're a prick. But I wouldn't say that to, you know, well—

Yeah, I think you've just got to have a mutual respect through and through. And if you both on the same paths and you both see the same vision, then it's not—it's not too difficult.

Yeah, there's different perks with it. I mean, you do get that, but then again you can trust that person a lot more than you could somebody else who you don't know.

You talked there about your team. Hiring people is—isn't easy, but it's so incredibly important. What have you learned about hiring over the years?

That it's a really difficult process when, especially when it's not someone you know. Like I mean the first five, six people that we hired were friends, so we know their background, we know their abilities, and what their habits are. So when you bringing people in, especially close to you as your core team, and you don't know their habits and you don't know what they're like from a personal point of view, it is difficult. And sometimes you got to bite the bullet on things and sometimes you just got to see how it goes. But you understand that's why there's like a probation period and stuff like that.

Yeah, because even if you interview someone—oh, it can all be absolutely amazing in the interview, and they can bring in all this work that they've done for your brand, and then they can come into the brand and it just be a completely different story.

In order to work at Represent—and I'm sure a lot of people would love to—what's the one thing that you each look for in a person that you're looking to hire?

Great mindset. Just to see if they can relate to the brand as well.

Yeah, for me it's a work ethic mindset. I adore the people that come in and they're in on time and they leave on time and they get the work done. That's what it's all about for me.

And that's kind of like the fundamentals, isn't it, really? Yeah, exactly.

One of our mutual friends, Adam, who runs a restaurant in Manchester—he invited you down to Tatu when he had that sort of closed-door night with Justin Bieber. I remember seeing you there. And from what I read online, Justin Bieber gave you a pretty big compliment.

Yeah, so we came into Tatu, the other brother Drew invited us, had to say the codeword on the door. It was strange for Manchester. We didn't really know what was going on. And yeah, we was in there, Justin Bieber walked past James, who is our general manager, and said, like, "Oh, I like your jacket, what is it?" James ended up speaking to him about the brand, took his—I think it was his bodyguard's card. And his bodyguard told us to bring some clothes tomorrow to a house in Cheshire where they were staying. So we filled the boot and off we went. And the rest is history. He wore it for the rest of that tour and he was pictured everywhere in it and it got some amazing press and did really well for our sales.

That's crazy.

Yeah, so thanks Adam and Drew.

That's crazy. I didn't get anything out of that dinner, but whatever. I didn't get nobody's card. No, that's crazy.

When you're thinking about the future of the brand and where you want to go, is there a place? Do you think that far ahead?

No, we don't actually think that far ahead. We kind of stick with the next year because we're designing a year ahead with collections. That's where we stay. I think it's good for the mindset. I think thinking too far in advance when you're designing something that's further back than that can cause a bit of an issue. But we got some amazing stuff coming up even for the rest of the year. We got some great collaborations coming up, which is pretty cool. I'm excited for those. Mike's working on Fall/Winter '20 at the moment.

Oh wow. How do you know what's coming in Fall/Winter '20?

You don't. You don't know what's coming. So you're creating it, I guess. We just, like we said, we just make what we want to wear.

One of the biggest debates within fashion at the moment—we've got a lot of fashion clients at Social Chain—is this topic of sustainability and how the clothes we make and wear are impacting the environment. And it feels to me, as someone that's again a bit of a fashion outsider, that this is a very new cause for concern within the industry, because I didn't hear this conversation happening when we started our business and we were working with brands back then. What's your take on that, and what are you doing as a brand to fall in line with that?

To start off, we are a sustainable brand. We make everything in Britain that we can, which is a small carbon footprint. Everything we don't make in Britain is either in Italy or Portugal, which is again pretty close to us. The second thing is, we're a high-end brand in terms of the value and the quality of the product, so that in itself is sustainability. If we can sell a product that's seasonless and remains in people's wardrobes for a long period of time rather than them buying and throwing away, that's decreasing landfills.

As well as that, we're actually changing all our packaging at the moment, so all the plastics are reused, recycled plastics. All the cards are like recycled bamboo, things like that. And then we're doing a collaboration actually at the moment for charity, which is going to come out at the end of the year. Super exciting.

And let me take this in a slightly different direction. Young guys, successful business, doing well. What role has money and success played in your personal lives and in your business as a motivating factor or—?

From an early age, when you're the kid that puts pictures of cars on your walls, and that—like you want to get that money to be able to get that car. And then I think you get to a stage where you're way past that and it just doesn't matter. And it's all about building a great team and enjoying the experiences that you earn and really enjoying the process. I think the money just comes along with it.

I agree, yeah. I think even earlier from that, it comes from just having a mom and dad with a strong work ethic and them sort of having nicer things than other people's moms and dads and kind of instilled that in us, didn't it?

Yeah, when we was in primary school, my dad would take me and drop me off in a Range Rover. And all the kids would be like, "Whoa, fuck, your dad's got a sick car." And that gave me a feeling inside where I was like, right, I want to be like that dad. Like that's what I want to be. So that kind of gave us the mindset to be able to actually work every day at our goals and try and get to that place where we're happy with what we've got and it is nice things.

If people say, "Your dad's got a Range Rover, you've always had fancy things, you had an advantage," what do you say to them?

Yeah, you can say that, but we surpassed that belief within a couple of years of the brand. Everyone used to say that. They'd say, "Oh, this is the parents' brand," or "The dad gave them a few thousand pounds to start this," or whatever. But when it gets to a certain level and you're in 160 stores around the world and you've got this online business that's doing X amount, then yeah, your dad can't really do that.

Why do you think people say things like that?

I guess to make themselves feel better. I think it's a showing of jealousy, but I don't know, I think it's a human nature.

I would agree. I have the same conversation with Umar Kamani about obviously he came from a billionaire family and he's—he encounters the same narrative. But I think in the same respect, the level that he's got to, you can't—you can't excuse that. You can't go and get that from a parent. I think his dad was in like the original Manchester rag trade. He's created a company that's so, so big, it way, way surpasses that. So, yeah, I think you just deal with it and then they get over it.

And you talked a little bit about mindset there. Mental health is this massive topic at the moment. There's been a bit of a rise in awareness around the fact that we all have mental and physical health. And this has caused huge changes in the way we run businesses, the way we use social media, the way that they build the platforms and it's kind of like a rising in consciousness around the topic. The topic of mental health: what role does that play in your lives as entrepreneurs, but also in the way that you sort of build the business, I guess?

For me, it's like going back to what I said about the design and that being sort of like weighing on your conscience and how that can affect your confidence, because I can spend like a year on a product and we can sell four online. So there's always that worry in the back of your mind: like what if the train stops? You know, like what if you run out of ideas and things like that? But that same sort of anxiety causes you to carry on.

And how do you deal with—you've had anxiety? I'm pretty sure everyone in this room's had anxiety. But how have you managed that when you're doing—you're operating at such a high level where there's—there is a lot at stake, I guess? And you're continually going through these cycles of like launches and, you know, there's that the peaks and the troughs and the—how do you do that?

I think it's clearing your mind, resetting yourself every single day. We both train together in the gym at night after a hard day's work. So that's kind of like our reset zone. And once that's done, like the business is done until the morning. So I think clearing your head as much as you can is great. Eating well's great. It all—I think it all works in hand-in-hand: your fitness, your health, and your brain.

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When you look back on the journey of Represent, what's been the single hardest moment for you? Was there a particular day, something that happened? You're looking at each other—I've got a few, yeah. Give me one each if you can.

In 2013, I found this factory in India and I'd never sent anything abroad before and we just up to then was doing t-shirts. And I liked the way clothes were shaped and high-end brands and I wanted to make something that was just different to a t-shirt and hoodie that you could buy from stock and and essentially create our identity. So I looked into how to make patterns and we found a guy that could make us these patterns and create us size sets and took me like six months, sent it all off to India, waiting for these samples with our fingers crossed for months on end. Eventually, something came back and it just broke my heart. And I was—I was literally lying on the kitchen floor crying my eyes out. And Mike was just sat next to me just going, "Come on, it'll be alright, man." That's happened numerous times, but—

And what went wrong there?

Just everything came back wrong. It's really hard to to use especially like foreign factories and your view on something is completely different to someone else's. They'd just be—being younger as well and people treating you a different way because of that. You know, like they can promise you one fabric, but then they might come in and off the back of someone else's order, they give you another fabric. And things like that—we used to get played like that by a lot, even in British manufacturing. That was a thing that really frustrated us because we have a—we have an eye for detail and when something comes back and it isn't how the sample is, that gets me going. Yeah, I used to get very angry at that kind of thing, didn't I?

I think for mine was we were at—we were doing a runway in in Milan, wasn't it? And this is also like a high and a low question together. Because we were stood there like sort of watching the crowd pour in and we were thinking like, "How have two lads from Manchester created this?" Because we did the show by ourselves. And we suddenly realized that we'd got no steamers. Oh, you're joking. For a fashion show, which is like horrendous.

So that was the "creased collection" or some shit?

Yeah. If that's your worst memory—I don't know, we've not had it bad.

Yeah, that's a good point, if that is the worst memory then it's not—not too bad.

You talked there a little bit about age playing a factor in the way that people treat you sometimes. Can you talk to me about that? A lot of people ask this question because a lot of people think they're too young to start businesses, they're too young to try.

I think most recently it's—it's not like that anymore. I think you can go anywhere at any age and be accepted for that. Same with what you wear. I remember six, seven years ago when we'd go out into Manchester, we wouldn't get in anywhere because we wouldn't wear white shirt, blue jeans, and brown shoes. And the bouncers would look at us and be like, "These guys have come here to rob the place because they're in all black." This is fashion, and they just couldn't accept it. So we'd go out every weekend as a group and we'd have to like split up into ones and find girls to go in with just to be able to get into clubs. It's not like that anymore. I think all over the world you can go in anywhere and wear what you want, which is great.

But back in the day, yeah, especially with factories. We'd go meeting factories and it'd be two young 20-year-olds walking into a factory that was making for, say, it was making for McQueen and Balenciaga and they'd just look at us and think, "Is this a joke?" But they soon realized it isn't a joke and then it's great. Much easier being yourself anyway than being someone else. And I think the brand Represent and probably even the word "Represent" kind of personifies that in a respect. Yeah, definitely does.

We talked a little bit about sacrifice earlier, and one of the things that you mentioned was relationships. Something I've talked about a lot in this podcast about my—my personal relationships always seeming to fall by the wayside as I built the business because, you know, it's hard to find someone that understands what's going on up here. And even though you can tell someone something, the words don't always do justice how you're feeling. I'm in the same boat as you there. I've never found someone that can accept how hard we work and that the business—even though you can tell them it isn't your number one priority, and I know you've told people that before—it is your number one priority and it is your life and you wouldn't give it up for anything. So that kind of breaks that kind of thing up. Mike, on the other hand,'s found a pretty good—

You just have to meet someone that does understand that first point. My girlfriend's American and I don't really see her too often, but again that—that has its perks with being so hands-on on the business all the time.

So we've got two different perspectives here. So tell me how—how you've made that work in terms of compromise and and communication? Because I, when things get really tough, one of the first things that goes is I'll shut down a little bit in communication. So how have you made that work?

I mean, I kind of do the same. I kind of shut down whenever I have like something big coming up, I'll—I'll retreat and not sort of say much and she'll be asking like, "Oh, how you doing?" Like, "You can tell something's up" or whatever. How I deal with—I don't know, it's just—I think she accepts you for who you are and what you're doing and understands that you're on this journey. And I think it's hard to find someone like that. She can see like the end goal.

And George, what problems do you have? Talk to me about this. I want to know quick, because we're probably in a similar boat.

I've had relationships before. Back in the day, like when Instagram first started, there was this girl who was like the face of Instagram and I fucking fancied her so much and I even put her on my Instagram as a—as a 19-year-old kid thinking like—yeah, this was like when you're 19—no, no, not trying to get her attention. Then I met her in a club a few years ago and it broke my heart. Something happened and yeah, it was one of those. I was in a relationship with that girl for a year. Apart from that, not really. But yeah, I don't want to go in a relationship after that for a while. I prefer—I like being on my own. I like being—not lonely, but I like—yeah, I just like my own space and I like not having to communicate with people outside of work. I don't really have the energy after it.

Conversely, Mike, as someone that's in a relationship, what is the upside of being in a relationship when you're an entrepreneur running a sort of high-intensity business?

Just having someone to talk to after, you know, like after you finish work, bounce ideas off. Yeah, she's—she's involved with the business. She's really cool. She's in fashion herself, so it works for Mike. She's a stylist.

And is there some value in the fact that she's not fully in the business?

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I assume it'd be a lot harder if I—if she was coming to work with me and we were working in the same environment, going home in the same environment, it'd be a lot more intense. I feel like, yeah, some people might look at what I have as like a burden, but I don't know, for me it's—it's kind of working pretty well as of right now, yeah.

Because it also allows you to get your—so I've got to be honest with you, George, here. I've just kind of got into a relationship. Really? Yeah. So you're on your own now. I was hoping—this whole podcast thinking, "Shit, I've got this guy here." It's only like three months or something, but she lives in France so I don't see her much. But when I do speak to her, because she's not involved in my world as such, it does feel like a bit of a time to completely step outside of the the bubble for a second. And as I've got older, I think that's I've placed a greater value on that. And like you said, she does run a business. She's starting a business. So she can still relate. Yeah, exactly. You have something in common even she'll understand your stresses and what you actually go through.

George, who do you think is going to take you off the market? Talk to me about what this person's going to have to—

I don't know. I always go for the same look. That's my problem. They all look the same.

What do they look like? Mike, tell me.

They look like what you would find in a club in Los Angeles. Oh, really? Come on, man.

Dark hair, tanned. Yeah, that's it really. I'm not—I'm not too picky. It's just that I don't—maybe it's me. Maybe it's me that's not good at holding things together. Again, it all just relates back to being so focused on the brand that I don't want to—I feel like when I was in a relationship, I lost a bit of motivation and I kind of lost my way with how the collections were going. And once I came out of that and realized what had actually happened, that's kind of—it's not scared me, but it's kind of made me realize like I'm at the forefront of this and if I do something that isn't 100% for it, it can have its toll on the company as well.

Using that word "scared" again. Are you not scared that you'll be—because this is one of my fears—probably still at some point 55 years old, 7 French Bulldogs... No, I mean, I'm 26. I've got a—a long time ahead of me. I've got friends that are in the mid-30s that are still single and still doing what they're doing and still trying to build businesses. So it doesn't—I don't think about it.

Do you want to get married someday and have a family and stuff?

Ask me again in like seven years. What about you, Mike? Yeah, ask me again later on. Your girlfriend might be listening. You've got to be careful what you say. She'll understand. Sorry Alexa.

And what's—what's next for Represent as a brand? You talked about, you know, collaborations next year and such, but when we're thinking about the future of the brand, what's the the long-term roadmap?

Just expansion in all areas. We're opening up in China over the next few months and it's just good to go to other places and realize how things are sold and different ways of actually communicating to your customer. And I just like learning as we're going on. Like everything is a big learning process and we're at 5% of where we could be at. So it's not like the brand's in my—in my eyes, the brand's never going to stop growing as long as we're—we're enjoying it.

Where does this end, though, for you guys? So you—the brand becomes a global brand, you're making incredible stuff, you're making billions. Is there an end point?

You know what, we've been approached by investors and approached by people that—that want to buy the brand a few times, and it kind of like knocks you a bit and makes you think like, "Shit, is it—am I having like—am I going to go through an exit? What do you do after that?" But we've got our heads screwed on and we love the brand and I honestly couldn't see myself doing anything else.

I'm going to—I'm going to ask you a tough question here. One of the big fashion houses shows up. They say, "We're going to give you an astronomical amount of money for the brand." George is scratching his head. They're going to give you an astronomical amount of money for the brand. When you said then that it kind of knocks you a bit, can totally relate to that feeling. I remember the day that someone made an offer for Social Chain and it was a—it was a big figure, and I remember going home that night was actually not that nice and sitting in my room. And do you know what I did? I've talked about this on the podcast before, but I went on Rightmove and looked at houses and dogs because I was trying to figure out what this money would do for me.

We've done it. We've been through it. We've been through it for a long time. I think spending time realizing what you actually enjoy, and realizing that it is your work that you enjoy and it's not actually the money, then you'll step back from that and think, "I don't need to get rid of this, I don't need to move on from this, like this is where my happiness is."

They come in, this fashion house. Astronomical amount of money they offer. And the one sort of caveat they say is that you can no longer work in fashion as part of the the buyout arrangement for the next 10 years. What would you say? Astronomical amount of life-changing money, but you have to stay away from fashion.

10 years is a long time. It's a lot of money, George. I think it'd be hard—much harder for for him. I'd rather go back, yeah, I'd rather go back to them and say, "Why don't you give us this amount and we still creative direct the brand?" Yeah. Because like he's just got to be doing something all the time, even on a Sunday. Can't sit still. Can't sit still. So you'd have to weigh up whether or not you learn to sit still or how you could occupy your time and whether or not that was worth that figure.

So what—what are the brands that you look at and you think—you really admire what they've they're doing well, whether it's the big, big brands from the big fashion houses or smaller brands? Could you just give me like one each that you really respect and why?

My favorite designer is Haider Ackermann. He's a French guy who has just the cottons that he uses and the way the product drapes. And this is actually one of his hoodies here. Right. Yeah, I just resonate with it amazingly. And it fits my body well and we use that as an inspiration for ourselves for the quality and the attention to detail.

Yeah, mine would be Rick Owens. Got Rick Owens clothes. Just because like he's never strayed away from that—that gothic sort of look that he has, like it's just—and also like his identity is, yeah, incredible.

And what—what do your your parents think of of this? And the business you've started and what did they think when you first started as well? Because my—my mom didn't speak to me for two years.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, they did speak to us, they just couldn't understand it. My dad can't really use the internet, so he didn't understand that I was shipping clothes to America. He'd like—he doesn't—he couldn't get his head around it, even though I'd show him everything that's happened and he'd be on like Google Maps looking at the address going, "Bloody hell, they live here!"

So, yeah, at first they didn't get it. And then when it started doing really well and we moved out of their house and we had this big warehouse and all our offices and grew all this staff, they just—they accepted it and they love it. They love it. I mean, I hear stories that they've told people about me. Like, I'll be in a restaurant and a guy'll come over and be like, "Yeah, is your dad this guy? He's told me all about you two." Like, what's he told you?

I think it's just because he's from like a motor trader background, he's just so different and like, even when we got the warehouse he—he pulled up and he was like, "Jesus, you're never going to fill this place." Yeah. And they've always supported you. Yeah. Always, yeah. And my little sister as well, she's been great.

What's the—what's been most rewarding for both of you about achieving the success that you've had?

Rewarding... in our early 20s, it was like cars and watches and chains and things like that. That was what we'd look at on Instagram. And like I've always been obsessed with Rolls Royce. Like I'm an actual Rolls Royce fanatic. I could tell you everything about every car and the leathers and stuff. And that's kind of like been in my family, like my grandad was obsessed with Rolls Royce and my dad was. They—they used to like do wedding cars with Rolls Royces. I don't know why, but I think the first time I saw a Rolls Royce on the road I was like, "Whoa, dad, what is that?" And he told me, and since then I was like, "I need to get one of those." So like getting one of those when I was 22, I think, was like a massive—like an amazing thing for me and I love it. And everyone like, "Why the fuck are you driving that? You're 22, you're not 60." I'd be like, "Give it a few years, everyone'll be driving these." And then they brought the Wraith and all the younger people were buying them and then the rappers and so that—that was a—that was a motivator for me back in the day. Not anymore.

I think it's like making just making people proud. Making your mom and dad proud and stuff like that, isn't it really? That's what it kind of feels like. Yeah, we always felt like we had something to prove because our dad had his own business. He was selling minibuses and he was always teaching us like, "Don't have—don't get many staff, don't increase your overheads." He has like three staff in a garage and everyone thought that we'd just end up doing that because we'd go and work for him on Saturdays and go and work for him on Wednesday nights and like I'd be cleaning the buses with a power washer and I'd be drawing on the side of the bus because that was creative and I could—that was the only thing I could find that was fun in it. So I guess that's it. That's what gave us the drive to be able to push ourselves and prove people wrong, wasn't it?

Is there a lot of creativity within your family? Because the the way that—I guess this is a question for for both of you, but Mike you're the the creative director of the brand per se. Do you understand where your creative vision—and you probably, you know, this is a really easy question to ask but not necessarily a easy question to understand because we're all just born the way we are—but do you understand where your creative vision has come from?

I don't know, I think might have come from my grandma. She actually altered the first pair of jeans that we did and we've kept the same fit since after that. Right. Yeah, she was a seamstress by trade. Oh really? Yeah, that's our only bit of creativity in our family tree.

So maybe it come from that, maybe I don't know. I used to just follow Mike wherever Mike did in school, however Mike dressed and whatever Mike chose for classes, I'd just do the same two years later down the line because I thought he was so cool. And I was like constantly getting in trouble at primary school for like doodling and like parents' evening for me was just such a nightmare. Like I remember this one time my mom actually she came home crying because this teacher—I won't say her name—had said to her that, you know, it's—it's so unfortunate for you because there's no money in art. She was just—say that teacher's name. I'm joking. What's wrong? I might do. That's crazy. No money in art. And I knew when I was different from in the first year of primary school, they made you draw a portrait of yourself on on tea towels. I remember tea towels, yeah. I remember that. So like the whole year was on the tea towel and like everybody and this is like after the first year, like everyone's, you know, like you couldn't even distinguish like the limbs on some of them. And then mine had like a fucking belt and a tie. Like mint them, yeah. Unbelievable.

That's crazy. So how was school for both of you? What was the experience generally? I know I can tell you you weren't very good in school.

I mean, I had a big brother in there, so it was good for me because I had that—that like protection. No one liked us because we had long hair and skinny jeans and we'd wear different shoes to everyone else. We'd be in coming in in skate shoes where everyone else had like the Rockports on and the baggy black trousers and we'd have skinny black jeans trying to get away with it in class. We were wearing those because he was wearing them. Yeah, yeah. I mean, we—we had like Sony Walkmans and we'd listen to American rock music. Do you know what I mean? Like in Bolton, no one else—no one else really did that. And then we were like on the internet at night looking at whatever American stuff that wanted to go to Los Angeles and just just that whole culture really like inspired us, I guess, to be different.

And in school in terms of grades and qualifications, did you do—?

We're both not very literate. Not great in like your general studies, but obviously we excelled in graphic design and art.

And did you buy into that narrative that because your grades weren't great, or like your teacher said that, you know, there's no money in art—did you buy into these narratives that because your grades weren't great or you were doing art that that would mean you weren't going to be—?

Oh yeah, especially when I was in school, you know, if you didn't get a good GCSEs, that was like back in the day, yeah.

And would you send your kids to school knowing that experience?

Yeah, I think school is more about the personal gains rather than the more academic gains and like how to deal with people and making friends and realizing what you actually enjoy. I don't think it's about what you learn in class. You can learn more outside of the classroom than you can in the side of the classroom. I guess it's a networking tool, isn't it really, as a child?

When you were—when you were younger, was there a—you talked a little bit about that moment with the tea towel when you drew yourself as like a, you know, with all the the belt and stuff. Was there a moment where you you started to to think to yourselves, "Do you know what? I think I'm a little bit different from everybody else around us"? I see you nodding, Mike.

Yeah, I probably after that moment of looking at that tea towel, I was like, "Yeah, I can draw, no one else can." Yeah. No, I think it's the way we looked, the way we looked, yeah. In terms of your mindset, was there a point where you thought, "Do you know what? Like we're—we're..." because people always say, are you born an entrepreneur or do you become an entrepreneur, whatever. My mom used to sit on the end of my bed every single night and say, "You're going to be something, you're going to—you're going to make yourself something of yourself. I can just see it in you." And I think that was just because I was so full-on with everything and I don't like to lose and I make sure I do I see everything through. So I always had that in me and I always because Mike kind of like brought me up through school and and through college and I did what he did, that I wanted to make something then that we could both rely on and that, yeah, that we could just prove people wrong, wasn't it?

Yeah. And like at the—the idea of sort of doing art on like something else like a canvas or whatever just only sort of seemed possible if you were dead. You know, like making money on that sort of side of it. So yeah, it was all about making money as a young—as a teenager and in school because that's what our dad taught us to do. I know it's like a classic tale of selling sweets at school, but my dad bought me a moped when I was 16 so I could go to the shop at lunch and get people's lunches for them because we wouldn't—no one was allowed out of school because it was quite a secluded area called Rivington. And you weren't allowed out on your lunch break. And I thought, if I get this motorbike, I can go out at lunch and I can buy people food and charge them more. So I'd be going out to the local pasty shop, filling this little bucket up on the back of this old Peugeot moped, whipping out on the car park and selling—making like 50 quid a day, which which is absolutely amazing when you're like that age. And then I got sent home.

What are you—what are you scared of, both of you? What scares you?

For me, contracts. What do you mean contracts? I don't like—I don't like reading. Don't like reading long things and, yeah. So that kind of scares me if I ever signed something that wasn't the right thing to do.

But what like really scares you? If you think about the future and what what could happen or, you know, what the things that, you know, they say keeps you up at night is the expression, but what what really scares you?

Maybe losing it all, but then we could just start it again, so it doesn't... I don't actually know. What scares you?

Sort of running out of ideas, maybe. Or like coming into a mind block. Yeah, or like losing a passion for for what you do.

Do you hit a creative—wait, what scares you? That's a good question. I think the only thing that I'm a little bit concerned about is that I might have the—and I think this is a constant thing—is that I might be out of balance in some way. So I might be caring too much about business and not enough about my niece and my mom and dad and then they're going to die someday and then I'm going to be like, "Fuck, I had this all wrong."

We've been through that. Yeah. We had that with our grandad, didn't we? But because you're—you have the same the way you talked about your obsession with this—is very similar to to how I've always felt and I got to a point where I started to question that. And I'm not going to name names here, but I've got a very successful friend that works in fashion and we had a conversation about—and he's—he's much older than all of us, but he started around the age we started and he came to me and said, "Do you know what? I—I realized this year that I've only been successful in one of nine things. I've been super successful in my business, but everything else that mattered—my relationships, my family, my this, my that, my weight, my health—I've just disregarded in the pursuit of this business and now I'm, you know, X age and he said to me, I've been waking up miserable every day for the last couple of years. And so that has made me sort of focus on making sure my priorities are in... Yeah, balance is a massive thing. And I think your fitness and your health and what you eat is that that can affect everything. So I think if you've got that in check and you make sure you make that hour for the gym and you make sure the food you're eating is good, I think that that can massively impact just the way you are with people.

You talked about a like a creator's block, like a creative block then. Is that something you've ever encountered?

Yeah, and you get so frustrated with it and good comes out of that as well.

How do you overcome that and when you say good comes out that what you mean?

Yeah, like when you sat there and, you know, like you you sort of have like a word to yourself like, "Is that good enough?" and you get frustrated with it and that makes you learn how to make that one thing better and then you learn little things from that and just that just keeps going, yeah.

And when you have that a moment where you can't seem to to come up with a new idea or new creative concept or whatever, which a lot of people have in all areas of, you know, the creative disciplines, what do is there something that you do is there like a—?

No, it just happens. So you just leave it and just yeah, it just comes to me. Sometimes I I'll push you onto something else. Or we'll completely start it again and see if we can get around it that way. In terms of an actual design, isn't it? It's good because we we feed each other, so I—Mike has a a great way of completing something and perfecting something, but the start of it you struggle with, don't you? You struggle with having that idea and making it this thing. So if I can feed him the idea, he can make the thing, we both know it's right. Yeah, like I like presenting options as well and and having somebody else like George look at it and say, "Nah, let's just do that one, it's obviously that one," and I'll present the three because for me when I'm designing something, I can't see the difference between so many options of what to do. Right. It's like yeah, I don't know, your perfectionism seems to bother you. Oh, like to the mil—to the millimeter on a print width from the neck collar. Oh it's he'll spend too long on that, but it is what it is. Sometimes it's good to have him to just sort of like pull you out of it and be like, right, move on to something else. Is that a bit of a sounds like a bit of a gift and a curse. Yeah, definitely. Probably the biggest one for me. But you almost have to appreciate that clearly you wouldn't be here if you didn't have that gift and curse at the same time. Yeah, it's sort of it's just time-consuming for you especially. That's the issue with it. And it's hard putting them them jobs onto other people because no one can do something like you can in your own mind to like delegate in that to someone else is always been a a hard task.

You've been through a lot together. I'll ask you individually, what does Mike mean to you, George?

Everything. I could literally couldn't do this without him. I wouldn't do this without him, actually. Yeah, if Mike disappeared or popped his clogs one day, I—yeah, I wouldn't be able to run it.

And vice-versa, Mike?

Yeah, this not to be not to give an easy answer, but I'd say the exact same, yeah. Um, there's no way that that we could do what we do without each other.

Amazing. So the last question that I always ask when people are on this podcast, you'll know. You're probably the only people that have ever might be prepared for this a question. We're going to have a dinner party, at at we're going to do it at your house.

I don't I don't cook, by the way. Really bad at cooking. Do either of you cook? Not really into that yet, just because of the time.

Okay, well we'll Uber Eats or Deliveroo something. #ad. There's a table. There's how many seats? Let's we're going to have to add another chair—seven. It's going to have to have seven, yeah. You know what's coming. I might change it. Too much of your stuff. Seven seats then. There's four spare seats. Are you going to pick two people each, dead or alive, that get to sit at the the table? Tell me who they are and why.

Liam and Noel. So they can sort it out. Because I think if they sorted that out, that would be the biggest thing in music. Yeah, is Oasis a big like personal influence? Huge, massively, yeah. Two brothers from Manchester made it out of nowhere and really rocked the world. So it's kind of good for us because it's like an inspiration to not do that. But like their style and the way they were and their attitude and everything was so good. Have they ever worn your stuff? No. Would you want them to? Yeah, I'd love—yeah, that'd be cool, wouldn't it? Liam's—Liam's sons are actually really big models, which is cool and they look like them and we want to use them in a few campaigns. But if you need anyone else for campaigns, just let me know I am available. I've tried to buy your stuff so many times, it's always sold out. I'm genuinely, I'm not saying this to bullshit on the podcast, I've been on your website loads of times and every time I try and buy something, everyone's already beat me to it because maybe a little bit slower to it, but um, yeah, yeah. I brought you loads of things anyway. Oh amazing, I didn't know that. Yeah, you're all right now.

My two people for the dinner table: Winston Churchill. Amazing leader, brought this country—brought this country up in a time of despair. Absolutely love the last film that they did about him. Don't know how true 100% of it was, but just like that scene where everyone's on the tram going into work and they're reading a newspaper about and like actually under in in his bunker—it's an absolute nightmare and the they've got no chance of winning but everyone's reading his quotes that are saying that we're going to do this and the like I just loved that like loved that drive that he had. And he smoked a lot of cigars, I'd probably have a cigar with him. I think Liam would like him as well, wouldn't he? Probably, yeah. And then someone fashion-orientated, probably Alexander McQueen. British designer, absolutely amazing. Went through a lot. I watched his—a documentary his documentary recently called McQueen I think. Yeah, really moved—moved me in a a tremendous, tremendous way because he was someone that was an unexpected face in that industry, to say the least, and it kind of I guess it gives hope for every young designer in this land anyway that anyone can make it.

What would—what would these seven guests be eating? Starter, main, and dessert. There you go, didn't know that was coming, did you? And it's at our house, so that's going to be hard. Starter... I don't really get starters. Mike, you're going to have to do the starter.

Just a bag of crisps in a bowl. Crisps in a bowl? Yeah, everyone's got a pint. Started off with a drink.

What's your favorite food for the main? We need a main course.

Have you ever had a BOA in LA? Been to LA a few times. Steakhouse on Sunset. That's probably both of our favorite restaurants, yeah. The fillet steak. Amazing.

Definitely. Dessert?

We don't eat desserts. No, we never get to them. You sacrifice too much, lads. What would it be, though? When I was a kid I used to love going to them like fake Italian restaurants and having like profiteroles.

Anyway, let—it's been a—it's been an absolute pleasure to meet you, to talk to you, and to understand you better. The as you said, there's—there's tremendous mystery surrounding the brand I think, anyway, and it is it is fascinating to get a a closer look at what what's made this brand so special. Because when I say this, I mean it—the brand does feel really special and typically when that's the case, you can there's it feels special because it's coming from a really true real place. And that's like super, super clear to me and evident once I've met you. And anyone that is thinking about getting into the world that you're in, from meeting you, I think the advice I'd give them is, you know, as you said, if it isn't true to your heart, if it isn't what you breathe, and it doesn't come from your pure inspiration, then unfortunately they're going to have their ass whooped by people like you that are so driven by a a crystal clear unique inherent innate set of sort of inspired values. And that's what Represent is all about. It's why I I saw the brand and wanted to buy it immediately because it felt special. I think that's what it's all about: making that consumer feel a way personally. And that's—and that's a testament to you both. So thank you for for coming on today.

Really appreciate it. Thanks for having us.

Where can everyone find you? I know typing in Represent's the easiest thing to do these days, but in terms of your Instagrams?

Um, in the UK, you can find us in Selfridges and Harvey Nichols. Cool. In terms of social media, yeah, I'm GeorgeHeaton and that's Mike_Represent.

I'm sure you're going to get loads of messages. So, thank you, guys. Appreciate it.

Thanks, guys.

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