Jamal Edwards - From Media Student To Multimillionaire
Guests: Jamal Edwards
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The thing I think about most, especially when I'm on the go but also when I'm sat here in the Diary of a CEO studio, is the Wi-Fi and internet that we have to work with. In fact, anytime I'm filming away from the studio, one of the first things I do when I arrive is open up an app and do a speed test to see how strong the signal is.
The number of screenshots I've sent to my team about Wi-Fi signals at different locations is actually pretty crazy. It matters that much to me because it's such a competitive advantage to have fast Wi-Fi. On any given day, if I'm recording hours and hours of footage with a podcast guest, I then often have to have my team send that across to our London team who then do the edit.
So fast Wi-Fi and internet is not a nice-to-have; it is absolutely business-mission-critical. When it came to finding the best provider who could supply internet and Wi-Fi to our new LA studio, we looked at every single option.
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Jamal Edwards MBE. The normal guy working in Topman that became an amateur filmmaker and turned into a multimillionaire. Starting out, Jamal was one of the youngest successful black entrepreneurs in the UK. When I started my business, he was someone that I admired and looked up to tremendously.
I remember stalking him online, and one day when he did a Skype group chat, I asked him a question and that meant the world to me. Well today, I get to ask him a few more. Jamal was born in Luton, and at the age of 15, he rapped with his friends under the name Smokey Bars on a twenty-pound camera phone.
His first video was simple: just him filming foxes on his local estate. These videos would eventually become his business and the beginning of the brand which we all know called SBTV. In 2006, Jamal launched SBTV, the first new media business on YouTube, gaining a fan base of over 1 million subscribers and over 600 million views in a very short amount of time.
SBTV has launched the careers of many, many people in the music industry, including one guy which we'll all know called Ed Sheeran. Voted number two in the Guardian’s Top 30 Young People in Digital Media, he was also named in the Forbes 30 Under 30 list in European Media and one of GQ’s 100 Most Connected Men of All Time. I met him in his office in London and we discussed everything.
Jamal, I don't really know where to start. There is so much that I have to ask you. If I take it back in my journey, when I was 18 years old and I was in Manchester—a young kid with big dreams—you were the face that I always saw. Because I'm a young black guy that didn't come from a very good upbringing, I didn't have many case studies in my life of successful young black men to look to as a proof case that it was possible for me.
You were one of those people, and I think you've always set a real shining example for me as an entrepreneur as I've progressed in my career. So first and foremost, I just want to say thank you.
Oh my guy, that is humbling. You’re smashing it as well, bro.
No, for real. I’m not a bullshitter. Genuinely, and you probably won't know this, but there was one day when you were doing these Skype interviews and you were allowing people that followed you to speak to you on Skype. I asked you a question and you responded on Skype, and I thought that was crazy back in the day.
I remember those days. That was probably seven or eight years ago.
I guess where I want to start is at the start of your journey. What were you like in school?
I think one of the things was just my attention span. There were some things I did enjoy; I enjoyed the more physical stuff, more like ICT. But I actually didn't take media or business in school, which was quite funny considering how I got into it. I just had a very short attention span and that led to behavior problems.
I remember in Year 9, I got put to a psychiatrist because they were like, "What is going on?" I think I've still got the report at home. I don't know why they did that. I only went for a couple of sessions because they wanted to ask me questions and find out a bit more about my life.
And what did the psychiatrist find out? What was their conclusion?
I don't know. It was just that I needed to be stimulated more. I’m just not engaged with things I’m not interested in, which caused me to be a bit of a class clown.
Did you get good grades?
I got alright grades. I didn't get the grades I wanted to get into my first year at college. So I did a BTEC National Diploma in Media: Moving Image. But I had to do a whole other year because I think I missed one grade, as I needed like six A to Cs. So I ended up doing three years at college while all my mates went straight to the two-year course. That was a bit of an eye-opener that I should have focused a little bit more in school.
I've read and watched a lot about you over the years, but I've never heard you talk a huge amount about what your home life was like as a kid. I know you grew up in London and you’re incredibly close to your mom. Is there any context of your home life that has shaped who you are today or shaped the poor behavior you described in school? Is there anything connected to those preschool years that inspired you to be a little bit more independent?
Much of the reason I ask that question is because I try and look for patterns in people. My parents weren't really around. When I’d wake up every day, they were already gone. When I came home from school and fell asleep, they weren't back from work yet. My mom would just sleep at her job. So I had this sense that if I was going to have anything in life, it was going to come from something that I did.
My mom's parents died in a car crash when she was four. So my mom and my uncle had to stay with my aunties and it was very strict—so strict. My mom has then made it very strict for me. I wasn't allowed out until I was a teenager.
I remember always coming home and thinking of those films like *Jack* with Robin Williams, where he's like a big kid and all the kids on the area are wondering, "Who is he? Did you see him?" I used to have similarities to that because everyone knew I was there, but I wasn't allowed out. "What does he do?" That had a little bit of an effect on how I could experience life outside of being in my parents' house.
My mom is married to my stepdad. I don't know my real dad. He's been very supportive in my life from the early days when I wanted to get certain cameras and certain equipment. But yeah, I think I had a strict upbringing which made me be much more of a rebel when I was finally allowed to be free.
Watching your journey as an 18-year-old kid myself, I got to see one dimension of being a successful young entrepreneur. But there's this other dimension that I think, especially at that time, nobody really talked about. It's probably quite hard for you to articulate the true nature of being a young, successful entrepreneur that had a lot of spotlight and a lot of people talking. What are the things about being a young entrepreneur when you came up that people just don't appreciate or realize?
I think it's just living your life in public. I'm all for making mistakes and for people to learn from them, and myself learning from them. But I think it was a lot of pressure making sure the way you dress and all that sort of stuff was right. It was only to a certain point where people didn't know who I was—only the local people.
The Google Chrome advert then took me to another level in terms of publicity. I was I think about 19. I was just like, "Whoa." It was just mad. People coming up to me taking pictures, people staring at me. I’d get mad anxious like, "Shit, what are they staring at me for?"
It got to the point where people would take pictures and I’d be like, "Why are you taking a picture?" I didn't understand. I’d be like, "What's my name?" because I thought they had me mistaken for someone else. But all the time people would say, "Jamal, come on man, SBTV!" and then I’d be like, "Yeah, it's cool."
Also, my mom being on *X Factor* as well, I used to see it with her. She didn't win but she got fourth place in the second or third series. I remember going shopping and people coming up to her. I never used to think that would be for me. I was always "Brenda from X Factor's son," and then it switched to "Jamal from SBTV's mom."
How did that feel, people coming up and asking you for photos?
I just didn't understand it at first. Then I sort of got a bit used to it. But at first, I was just a bit like, "Whoa." Now, I'm cool with it. People just literally stare at my face and I'm like, "You alright?" and I know how to deal with it now.
That's the publicity and fame side. What about the business side? You were at the center of this super fast-growing media platform. I imagine you have brands swarming on you, team members, and this expectation that you have to be the CEO and know all the right moves. What's that like at that age when you've got to pay people as well?
I was like the youngest boss. Everyone that I employed was older than me, and it was very daunting for me to be telling people, "Oh yeah, do it like this, do it like that." I used to let people sway my decisions because I've always been taught to respect your elders.
If I said, "Let's do a video like this," and someone older said, "I think it's like this," I'd be like, "Yeah, you probably know better because you've got more experience or more years on your age." But I had to learn to take that back and actually do what I wanted to do.
In the early days, it was very daunting. I would never tell people, "Oh yeah, can you do this?" because I’d think they are way older than me and they aren't going to listen to me; I'm a kid to them. I had to overcome that fear of just people saying, "But you're this age, you can't tell me to do that." It was programmed in my head and I used to tell myself that over and over again.
There are a lot of kids out there thinking they are too young to start anything. What would you say from your experience to those kids?
Now, especially, you can start a business at whatever age. I did a "Pocket Money Pitch" and kids like 11 years old were pitching me for business. I was like, "Whoa, this is crazy." I feel like the age now has been lowered. When we were in school, entrepreneurship and business wasn't really co-signed as much as it is now. They are seeing people like myself, people like you, breaking down the barriers and realizing that enterprise can be done at whatever age it is, and it doesn't matter what background you're from.
That Google advert was massive at the time. I feel like I remember where I was when I saw it. I was back in Manchester.
It was like the first ad break of *X Factor* that year. I was literally sweating. I got the list of where it was going; it was on Sky Sports and everything. They gave me a list of every ad slot and it was huge. Lady Gaga and Justin Bieber were like my counterparts, so I was the one in the UK. I think the reason why it did well is because a lot of people related to the story. It was a surreal moment.
What are the hard parts that people don't talk about? The stuff where people follow you on Instagram, they see the MBE, they see the Google advert, they see the honors, they see you on a Primark poster... But what are the bits that people don't put on Instagram?
I have my moments. Some days I'm just like, "I can't be bothered." It's just that I don't know what it is, you just feel demotivated a bit. I don't know where it comes from. I think one of the things you can see is if I don't post on social media. I go disappear for a bit. That's when I'm just like, "I just need me-time."
It is a job in itself to keep up the positive messages. I do quite often post stuff if it's not going well; I do try and do that as well because I want people to know the realism is not all "up." There are some times when I have down times and where I just want to be left alone. I think that's so important to show the real of what goes on day-to-day.
Without you saying that, as an 18-year-old kid watching you, I just think Jamal is always on point, always 100% motivated. The risk is if I have a bad day, I think there's something wrong with me. But in fact, what you've described is human.
Does that demotivation happen more now than it did at the start of your journey?
Yes, because I'm much more known. I feel like I've got something to live up to more than back in the day. When I was a little bit younger, you're a bit more nimble. I'm getting older now, so the mistakes you make are more scrutinized. "You've been doing this for how long now? You still make mistakes?" You make fewer mistakes than when you're younger, but I feel like yeah, there is a bit more pressure now. But I don't mind. If something bad did happen, I would say it and put it online and I've just got to learn from it.
In business, bad news is inevitable. But people don't talk about it. We all post the awards we get, but not the lost pitches.
There are brands, for example, if you're pitching for work and you don't get it. That's one of the things that happens all the time and people don't talk about that a lot. I guess that's an ongoing conversation because then you just re-pitch again instead of it being a "we didn't win this brand" post. You wouldn't say the brand, but I think that happens a lot and people need to know that happens a lot. You don't just win every single pitch. I don't know any business that wins every single pitch. You always have losses—except for men like Steve Bartlett.
No, we definitely lose! We win them but then sometimes we lose them because we fuck up. A typo can fuck the whole thing up!
Exactly. It happens to me, it happens to you. Some people might not get their first business for years. You just got to keep on going. I think that's one of the things I always try and push: self-belief, keep going. There were times when I couldn't get certain artists, and even today I might not be able to get certain artists or certain brand work that I want to try and do and we don't win the pitch. But we've just got to keep on going.
What's your coping mechanism with dealing with bad news as a young entrepreneur, and how has it changed over time?
I think now it's much more organized instead of it being emotional. It's like, "Cool, it didn't happen. Let's keep moving forward," whether that's investment or brand work or working with an artist. Back in the day, I was a lot more like, "Oh, this is all going to flop. I'm done." I would disappear for like a few days. No one would be able to get through to me because I'd be so angry that I didn't get something.
I think that was just from dealing with business from young and not knowing how to deal with it. Knowing that you've actually got a team with you, I had to learn how to delegate. I always used to be very "I want to do everything," and I had to get out of that mindset because it was killing my health. To delegate was one of the big things that I needed to learn.
They say that when something becomes a job, or it becomes monotonous, and also when you get paid to do it, you lose the creative motivation.
That's why you've always got to have "umph moments." I class them as umph moments—moments in my career where it just gives me a new umph for a period of time. So for example, the most recent one was I did a Fashion Week party at Soho House Greek Street.
I saw that.
That was an umph moment. It was like we were saying in a group, "Let's do one for Halloween or let's do another for Christmas," but it's like no, let that marinate. Let it just season. When you put the seasoning in food, you've just got to let it get the juices. As well as our losses and our wins, we need to let it sink in.
If you lose, dust yourself back up and get back up again, but you just need to realize how did you lose and how can you not make that same mistake again. Same thing for your wins: let it get out there and then you move on to the next thing. Over the years, I've always had these umph moments.
I did a talk about creating and curation. I was a creator at first and then I ended up being a curator. One of the umph moments was when I did the social media hub—the first ever social media hub at Buckingham Palace—where I took a selfie with Prince Harry and Prince William. I think it was from that moment I was like, "Umph." That lasted for months.
When we're working, you've always got to think of these moments. I always try to say if I have four moments in a year, cool, that's good. A moment each quarter. Then I can have like little moments in between that are just reminding people I'm still here. Because I'm like 10-plus years in the game now, you always just got to have them umph moments.
10-plus years in the game. You started SB a long, long time ago. I must have been about 16, 17 when you got into the game. How has your love for what you do changed over time? If there is ever a day where I come in and I don't have the drive, I start asking myself all these questions as to where it's gone. 10 years into SB, how are you feeling about the brand today?
I feel like I could be doing a lot more, if I'm honest. Cards on the table. But my mind is involved in so much different stuff. I need to focus on it a little bit more. The music scene right now is killing it. I was with Maya Jama the other day and she's smashing the game. I was with like different camps and units all over the UK; it just feels like a real moment.
So I feel like with SB, I could be doing a lot more. In 2020, I'm going to be doing a lot more. I have so many plans with big institutions that I'm working on at the moment behind the scenes, like one with the British Library. These are umph moments that will last a few months. When I go out in the street and people are like, "Why aren't you doing this no more? Where's the F64s?" I want to bring back F64s, do more A64s.
But people have got to realize I was making content for so long and the community stuff just took over my life a little bit. I really got stuck in with setting up the youth centers and working on that behind the scenes. So yeah, in terms of SB, I could be doing a lot more.
"I could be doing a lot more." One of the things that I think puts a lot of pressure on people is that sentence. That constant feeling. I have the same feeling. I always think you should be doing more, you should be further, you should be doing better. Even an 18-year-old kid starting out is looking up at you and thinking, "I should be doing a lot more." How do you deal with that pressure?
100%. I think it reaffirms it when I see people and they tell me, "Why aren't you doing this?" and I'm like, "Why aren't I doing this?" You can tell yourself again and again, but when someone else tells it to you, then that's the consumer—their voice matters. You have it already in your brain but someone just unlocks it. I always say people have it inside them. I unlocked it when I was 15. Someone's nan could unlock it when they are 80 and she starts up a knitting business. Everyone has that passion inside them; it's just something that triggers it or something that you find where you think, "I could do that," and then you go and run with it. So I feel like it's there inside you and someone just unlocks it. Then that's what it is: "You know what? I could be doing more."
Do you procrastinate?
Oh, I am the biggest procrastinator. I am so bad. I don't know if people know that, but I am the biggest procrastinator of all time. I actually think I'd be top three. It's so bad. There will be certain things, like certain videos that are still not out from years ago. It's like I'm a hamster; I just keep everything stored. It's really bad. It's a clutter in my brain. There are projects that have been on the table for ages, big projects, and it's just because I'm like, "Um, yeah, oh, and that, oop!" If you know me, then you know me.
In your mind, what is procrastination?
For me, procrastination is getting to the point where you've thought about something so much that you've almost talked yourself out of immediate action. So you might think to yourself, "I've got that essay to do in school... I really don't want to do it, and there's that question which I don't know how to answer... and I have got some time." You talk yourself so much out of it that you find yourself kicking the ball at the wall instead. You go and find other things to do which doesn't have anything to do with that.
With the task at hand—the thing that you're avoiding—there tends to be a psychological, often bullshit barrier as to why you're not confronting it. It might be you don't know the answer to question three. It might be that you hate it. It might be that you're scared of failing. A lot of people procrastinate from doing things because they think they'll fail.
That's like me and talking. I can't do keynotes.
I think this will surprise a lot of people.
I can't do keynotes. It's just like my fear. I just think of getting clammy hands thinking about it now. There have been so many, whether it's not paid or big paid jobs, I've had to turn them down because I can't get over that: going on stage for 15 minutes and just talking.
I’ve got a little game for you, Jamal. So I'm an 18-year-old kid and I come to you and I say, "Jamal, I respect and admire you so much. I've got a problem, though: I can't do keynotes."
Allow me, bro! I’ll say go look at Steve Bartlett; he's the don at it!
No, but surely it's the same principles as everything else you've done and overcome in your life?
I don't know. I'm just so comfortable with not doing it. I feel like I've built that barrier in my head. My agents are like, "Jamal, do media training, get public speaking courses." They do all the top speakers in the game—Sir Ken Robinson and all—and I was like, "I just can't. I just can't." Maybe one day I'll get over it, but at this moment in time, I've managed... And this is what I'm saying, I've managed to get to where I am today without doing it. But then I think, imagine if I *did* do it. I could be just doing it. It's just nuts how I've got that barrier in my brain that won't allow me to do it.
I've done a TEDx talk which I said the future Prime Minister will come from YouTube, and it went alright. But I think after that, I closed myself off again. I should have taken that, learned how I can improve, because basically it was like I just wanted to finish it. Anything I want to finish, I rush. I did an Hermes catwalk—my first ever catwalk, I couldn't believe I did it. Literally, I walked on and I walked so fast to get off the catwalk! Same thing with talking. I was talking so fast I wasn't letting the words marinate. People are going to know this word "marinate"—marinate can be applied to all aspects of life, trust me.
What are you scared of?
Talking! Keynotes. I think failure and I think having people not care about you anymore. At the end of the day, the audience is the most important thing. The reason why we're doing this is we've got an audience, we've got followers, we've got people that look up to us. I feel like once a lot of people don't care about what you're doing, you've got to look at something else. If people are not checking for you anymore, then you don't really have a business because the consumer is quite important to our businesses anyway. Also, not being able to do the stuff that I procrastinate about.
I think crazy stuff. I think every day is our last day. Sometimes I go to sleep and I'm like crazy stuff... "What happens if I'm not alive to see that?" I don't know why I think like that, but there's that, and there's other stuff like... I've got a project with the V&A or an artist that I'm going to work with in a month's time, two months' time, but I think what happens if I'm not going to be alive for that?
Where does that come from?
I honestly don't know. I just think mad stuff like that. I go to sleep and I'll be like, "Damn." But I think I've had a lot of death in my life as well. I have known people that have died in their sleep—SADS, I think it's called, where your heart stops. I've known a couple of people like that, or people that are not here.
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Your mom had a battle with cancer, currently in remission, which you've talked about a little bit. What was that like? My mom, I remember when I was younger—I think I was about 12 years old—my mom came home and she said to me that there's a lump in her breast. For the next maybe two weeks until she had her second-stage scan of it, it was world-shattering. I must have been 12, 11, maybe even younger. So when I read that you had been through a very similar thing and your mom had been diagnosed... My mom, it turned out it was a cyst which she had removed. A lot of people don't understand what that must be like, especially when you've got this big business that you've got to maintain and keep focus and keep up appearances over here, but then something like that so personal and close to home happens. What's that like?
I just removed myself from a lot of stuff. I just didn't want to be out and about. I feel like it was definitely a moment that made me appreciate life a little bit more and providing a little bit more for my family and close ones around me. It just opened my mind a lot. We're not on this earth forever. We're alive; the only thing certain is death. I don't want to say that as we're talking about death a lot, but it's like you've got to try and do as much as you can in the time that you're given.
I feel like everyone's got the same 24 hours on this planet. I saw that quote: "You got the same 24 hours as Bill Gates, Richard Branson," whatever. So it's like trying to appreciate that and trying to give it all as you can but still maintain a healthy lifestyle. Otherwise, you'll spend... I hear people that spend 21 hours awake working on it. Health is wealth as well. If you're creating a business or you want to do something and you ain't healthy, that's going to affect you. Your health is the most important thing.
One of my fears—I don't think I've ever said this before—is that I'll be so consumed in running my business and then one of my close family members will die, and I'll look back and regret not spending more time with them when I had the chance. I don't want that moment to make me realize what actually matters.
That happened to me. I've got a very big family. I think like my grandparents had 18 brothers and sisters—crazy. I don't know half of my family. I was so into it, I would never go to gatherings, all that sort of stuff. Then it came a period of time where I started wanting to go back and check my aunties and my uncles and my cousins because I realized I *was* consumed by it.
Consumed by your business? I call my mom—this sounds so bad, right? Your opinion of me is going to go in the toilet—once every two months. It's bad. My mom and dad live in the UK, in the southwest in Cornwall. I travel around the world... I've just been told I'm flying to New York now. I'm not good at the balance. Balance is my biggest flaw. It's all work for me. And that's why I say that's one of my biggest fears: figuring out before it's too late for them to smell the roses that I had a priorities issue. I'm almost aware of it but I've not done anything about it yet.
I relate. I relate. I believe everything happens for a reason. I remember when I moved out, which is when your mom got diagnosed...
Oh, okay.
I moved out at like 21 or something. Then I moved back when that happened. In that period of time, I didn't... the same thing. My mom and dad would message me and it would take me time to message them back. They'd be like, "Are you alright?" I resonate with that. Then also, I bumped into my auntie who used to look after me when I was younger, and I thought about it: I've never had a picture with her.
And I was like, "What?" So I sat her down and I was like, "Look, we're taking a picture." "No we're not, no we're not." I said, "Pictures create memories, don't they?" I was just thinking about it: our family is important, but at the same time, people that I have only just met could have more meaning in my life than some family members in the whole time. That's bad. But that's because you don't see them. It's the people that you connect to and that you work with on a daily basis. Your people in your business become your family. I think people beat themselves up over it a little bit, but I do think it's important to check with the people that mean a lot to you. Definitely.
When you got that news that your mom was sick, how did that impact your ability to run your business?
Fortunately, my people in my business were like, "Jamal, take as much time as you need." In my head I was like, "Oh my god, is she going to die?" I think she had like a Stage 3 or Stage 4—it was really late that she got diagnosed with it. One of the big things that I learned from that was her positive attitude and self-belief came from me—just from me being, you know what I mean, going for it. She applied that. Even though she's losing her hair and all that sort of stuff, she applied that. She was like, "I took your mindset and I was like 'I'm going to make it through it'." And she made it through it, which is good. Now she's like killing the game on *Loose Women*, so she's doing good.
One of the things I actually spoke about in the last podcast I did was about race and the topic of race. Here’s my opinion: one of the things that I've got to be honest frustrates me a little bit is when minorities—specifically black minorities because it's the group that I feel like I can identify with the most—fall into the trap of thinking that their race will hold them back. Or even in cases of gender or ageism. As a young successful black man like yourself, do you ever see that and what's your opinion of it?
I used to. I used to think it's because I'm black.
I did as well.
Now, I don't think that as much. But that depends on the people that you hang around with and that you surround yourself with. I surround myself with so many different groups and I like to connect those groups. Like my upmarket city boys, I would connect them to my estate boys and we'd go to Soho House, for example. Everyone seems to make this segregation. Back in the day, I used to have that in my head. If I never used to get anything, it was because I'm black.
Then I built my mindset out of that, because it was going to keep me trapped if I kept thinking like that all the time. Obviously, history—you can see black history and you can learn about it. I'm not going to go into it; I'm not going to say I'm like a historian or whatever. I know about the oppression and all that. But it's like we're in a new age. People can say "it's because of my race" or whatever, but it's in your mind to be the change you want to see in the world. That's a Gandhi quote. I try and make sure that I don't let that affect how I move because otherwise, it's a blame game. You just got to carry on and do it.
It’s like a self-fulfilling prophecy if you start to believe it.
Yeah, you manifest. Why don't you manifest you're going to do something else rather than manifesting it's because I'm black? I remember I used to do that as well—it's because I'm young. But then I ended up employing someone that had 20 years of experience, and then me and that person combined got the job. So you've just got to think: you're in the situation, how do you take it and change it so it can fit you? And then build on it.
That's what frustrates me about it because I see the issue. I know discrimination is a very real thing and I'm not denying that it is. I think we all have our own prejudices and stereotypes.
100%. But you can change your mindset. I actually think the prejudice or the belief that I'm at a disadvantage because of something like my skin color that I can't change is more dangerous or more conducive with me not being successful than the little bit of prejudice that John at that brand might have towards people that look like me. The mindset becomes a bigger issue. This is a controversial topic, of course.
But it's you—it’s how you deal with it. There’s that saying of people get things thrown at them all the time, but it's your reaction that is what makes it whatever it is. Look at the football at the moment and racism. For example, Raheem [Sterling] could turn around, run into the crowd and start to slap whoever is being racist, but no, he deals with it properly, like a big man, diligently. So it's about how you deal with it, definitely.
You spoke in your documentary about mental health in the music scene. You spoke a lot about your own battles with anxiety. It's something that seems to be more prevalent now in our generation than ever before. People point the fingers at social media and all these kinds of things. You mentioned earlier that you felt you had a very cluttered mind. What has your experience with mental health been and are you closer to understanding what is causing it and what helps to cure it?
Yeah, I find it affects everyone. You have these moments, these times where you wake up and I don't know, your serotonin levels might be low or whatever. I can only talk for how I deal with it. How I deal with it is like trying to eat better because when I have heavy meals, it just makes you feel groggy and slow. Gym is another thing—keeping healthy. And just switching off sometimes and spending some time with your friends is quite important.
A recent thing is football for me. I was obviously a massive football fan when I was younger, but when I started doing SB, it was like I couldn't go to the pub and watch games or go to Stamford Bridge and watch the games. So music took over my life. Chelsea was playing Valencia yesterday and I was talking at Havas, and I've got a season ticket... It's happening again! Where I'm stuck in between: do I go here? do I turn this down? A lot of people didn't realize that I was a massive football fan, and I've started going to a lot more games and it just removes me from everything and I'm just in the game for that period of time, which I find for me personally is like a relief.
I read somewhere that your relationship with anxiety is quite unpredictable. In the sense that anxiety comes over you randomly without apparent cause.
Yeah, I'll be in a place or I'll go into a place and I'll be like, "I don't... I just... I don't know." I'll just leave.
Did that start at a certain age or a certain time?
I think so, yeah. I think it was a confidence thing as well. From young, I always wanted to make videos and just put them out there. Whatever topics I wanted to talk about, I was going to do it through videos and that was it; I wasn't going to have no real-life interaction. I think that it's just always been there. I don't know how to explain it really.
A lot of it is confidence. It used to be like money gives you confidence, and then I realized your actual life and your relationships give you confidence with people. I think it was just the wrong messaging that I was looking at and I was giving into that allowed my brain to be sidetracked into what is life and what is a fulfilled life. That's what created me having anxiety in certain places.
But I remember I worked in Topman for four or five years and that actually built my confidence a lot because I used to have to go up to people and ask people for store cards I did not know. I think that was one of the most frightening things I had to do, and that helped me build more relationships with people and talking to people because I was just a very closed kid.
When I just did this show with Channel 4 in a school called *Secret Teacher*, going undercover... One of the things that I discovered from that process was that the people that I thought were the class clowns—I walked into this classroom, I see all these kids, some of them are throwing pencils, telling teachers to F off, throwing bottles, just messing around—I’m sat there in lesson one thinking these kids are just assholes.
Then the more I got to know the kids, you unravel their stories and find out that the ones that are the biggest class clowns and behaving the worst were in fact bullied for four years when they were six years old. They are the ones that have the lowest confidence. In fact, their behavior was a way to mask their lack of confidence in themselves or the education or whatever. Do you think that's something you can relate to?
Yeah, definitely. I picked the wrong battles from when I was young. I remember in Year 7, I was in class and someone must have thrown a rubber in the back of my head. I got so angry. With that certain group of people that that person was hanging around with, I had a problem with them. I don't know where it came from; I just thought they were picking on people.
I remember I had an outburst when I was younger, in the early days when I was Year 7 and everyone's new. You're making your name and you're finding out who your group of friends are. I think, yeah, that can have an effect.
You talked a second ago about figuring out more as you've gotten older what fulfillment is in life and what happiness really is. Do you have that answer?
I don't have the answer. For me, what makes me happy is being able to give back. I think years ago, money was a big happiness factor. But I've known people that have got serious money and are not happy. So happiness for me is being able to give back and improve other people's lives. I was doing that for years with SB; I’d put artists on and then they'd blow up and then I’d be like, "Yes, I've helped a career."
After that, it became more about the community of doing the youth stuff. I'm opening youth centers back up in London. I've got four—I was supposed to do one and then I ended up opening four because I just got carried away. They were centers that were closed. Two are drop-in sessions where young people can come—just somewhere outside of school and outside of your home where you can come and just talk.
We want to try and do a lot of mental health workshops. Then we've got another session which is music and media, which JBL have kindly thrown loads of stuff at us, Apple have given us loads of stuff, where young people can come and learn to produce, film... anything that you want. Then we've got one which is sports.
The main thing that I want to do with these centers is... we've engaged over 150 kids over the past 13, 14 weeks. If a young person comes to me and I ask them "What do you want to do?", one was "I want to be a lawyer," one "I want to be a sprinter," one "I want to be a librarian"... I would then use my contacts to connect them to the right person.
I'll go speak to a law firm or I'll go speak to Apple or the British Library and get that young person in there for work experience. To try and help build their self-belief and confidence. I didn't really have the confidence or self-belief because no one used to tell me, "You could do that." I just sort of looked at the TV and the newspapers and internet and made up my own mind. That's one of the big things that I want to try and do for young people today.
What impact did money have when you left Topman and started making some money?
I don't know. You never know, people might be scheming on you. Touch wood, I've never been robbed or whatever. But I've had people say, "Jamal, be careful, people could kidnap you," and whatever. Because I think people have that perception of you making loads of money in the early days, and it wasn't that at all. But it was like, "Oh, you've got millions of views, you must be making loads of money."
So I feel like money just brings happiness and sadness. In the early days, I used to think money made the world go round. I don't think that anymore.
Why not?
Because money comes and goes. You're not going to take all the clothes that we're wearing when you're in the grave; it's not going to matter. Obviously, you're going to have money left back for your family and close ones, but it's like you have money and you lose money. I've had money, I have lost money. So it's like a love-hate relationship.
If I gave you a check for 1 billion right now, would it make you happier?
Yes and no. It has its pros and its cons. I think it's what I would use the money for. If I used the money for selfish reasons—go and buy a big yacht, a house—that could be very lonely. Whereas if I went and I did a tour and I opened up centers... Obviously, you want to spend a little bit of money on yourself, but if you spend it all on yourself, I think that would create a crazy dynamic.
Some rich people I know are so bored. "Yeah, I'm going to go fly to Monaco today. Yeah, I'm going to go fly here." But you can surround yourself with those rich people, but normal people have nine-to-fives. They aren't going to come just because you want to fly there.
You said money can make you feel quite lonely, especially if you get a big house. That's the mistake I made when I was 24. I bought a big house, 40 minutes away from all my friends thinking I was some big guy, and then realized I’d get home at midnight—so it's a 40-minute drive that I didn't want to do at night and an hour in the morning—it was stupid.
I think everyone does that. I did that as well. And then I realized I was... for people to come and visit, it was long. But then you realize who your true friends are. If they come and visit... and it was only a few that actually came to visit. I basically went from West to East. Why? But that journey is like an hour in itself.
You actually realize who your true friends are. When you're creating a business, you're going to get a lot of people that will be like, "Oh you forgot about me." But the real ones will always be there. I've realized that years later down the line. It used to affect me: "Why aren't my friends talking to me anymore? They just think I'm big-headed," but they didn't realize I was just chasing a dream. At a young age, they didn't realize that until now. Like, "Okay, we get it." That's because as you grow up, you gain experiences and you learn how to deal with stuff.
Has there been real lonely moments for you?
Yeah, there’s been lonely parts. I think that's what I had to deal with when I was younger. Now I think I've got a quite good support group. But when I was younger, I didn't have that support group. I think that's what was programmed into my brain: "This is how business is." I don't think it is and it isn't. I've dealt with the loneliness aspect from when I was younger and I didn't have anyone to ask. I remember my parents, I didn't think I could ask them because they didn't understand. If I asked them about certain things, they’d be like, "I don't get it." So I've dealt with the loneliness when I was younger. Now if there's loneliness, I know how to deal with it.
What's the future for Jamal Edwards then? When you think about your future, what does it look like and feel like?
I want to do my own podcast! I live in the "power of now." I’d like to do more personal brand stuff; I feel like I've been building the Jamal Edwards brand outside of the SB brand. I'd like to do some more management and tour and travel the world a bit as well, but travel the world on much more of a leisure tip instead of it always being around work.
I don't think that will ever happen, but I can talk it into existence. I’d like to do more youth centers, I'd like to open up more youth clubs, I'd like to be involved in more entrepreneurship management for musicians.
Will you ever be satisfied?
Never. You can never be satisfied. That should be on a T-shirt: "Never Satisfied."
If you were to drop dead today, would you have any regrets about the way you'd done Jamal?
I don't think so. I feel like I had a good run. I feel like it was decent. I feel the same way. Would you still be thinking a little bit though like, "Oh I could have done that project, I could have filmed that person"? 100%. That will always be in my head. But I really believe in just keep going no matter what it is.
This is my last question. You're known for your network. "Your network is your net worth." I don't think anybody's got a better network or phone book than you.
Only Steve Bartlett, of course! No, come on my bro, you’re humble!
No man, this is because it's central to your business model as well—being able to connect people, bring them on... The success of SBTV's been blowing these people up like Ed Sheeran, etc. So here is the question: you're having a dinner party. Six people. I'm there because it's my house. You're there. Four other people, dead or alive. And I also want to know what the starter is, the main course, and the dessert.
Oh my god, give me time. Who was the first person that popped into my mind? It was Stephen Hawking and Nelson Mandela. Because I met Stephen Hawking before and he met my mom as well. I was just trying to think of who are the greatest minds in the world.
I'll throw Chuckle Brothers in there, man. Got to have Chuckle Brothers. Stephen Hawking, Nelson Mandela... I'd have some females in there, so like Mother Teresa or something. If I had to invite one person that's featured on SBTV, it would be Dave. Because I'm watching *Top Boy* at the moment and he smashed it. Dave.
Fried dumplings for starters. Then for the main... my Caribbean heritage is St. Vincent and the Grenadines. I'd love to find my real dad one day and know what side that side is. I don't know what my other side is. I've done that ancestry thing. I don't know how true that is.
The main... I'm just going to go standard, rice and peas and chicken. You know what? Actually, I will have the jasmine tea smoked chicken. Oh wait, that's still chicken! I'm thinking about chicken so much. You know what? I'll go throw in some sea bass with rice and some nice... but it's got to have loads of garlic. I love garlic, garlic and ginger with some basmati rice and some nice sauce.
Then for dessert, I will have scones. I love scones. I've been hanging around with the royals too much. Just at Fortnum & Mason, as you do. I'm not a big dessert person—I like brownies and jelly—but scones, yeah. Clotted cream and jam, oh my god, my mouth is watering. I'm going for scones. And then for the drink, I’ll have a ginger beer. Old Jamaica ginger beer. And some hot chocolate. I've never drunk coffee in my life. People always wonder. I like cafe patrone, but I've never had coffee.
Listen, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it.
Thanks for having me on. Maybe that's the podcast you should start: SB and then just do some SB's first. I'll do you and then I'll do Still Bangin' or something. That would be dope. Thanks bro, I appreciate it. Nice one, pleasure.
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