CEO Diaries: Bozoma Saint John on Growing Through Grief & Leading with Purpose

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00:16The process only takes minutes, and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary; not available in all states.

00:29In today’s Moments episode, we’re featuring one of the most iconic brand builders of all time, the former CMO of Netflix and Chief Brand Officer of Uber, Bozoma Saint John. Bozoma’s perspective on marketing is fresh because it’s not just about algorithms or trends; it’s about something far more powerful.

00:44It’s about curiosity. Curiosity about people, why they choose what they choose, what moves them, what scares them, and what makes them say yes. In B2B marketing, just like in life, we’re not talking to businesses; we’re talking to people. So, if you want to understand the real edge behind influential marketing, this is the moment to listen in.

01:06Your first significant career move seemed to be this encounter with Spike Lee’s agency. For people who don’t know, who is Spike Lee, and how did that happen?

01:17Spike Lee is "blackity-black," first of all. All the blackness. He is a film director at his core—a filmmaker, let's call it that, because he certainly produces, writes, and does other things.

01:31But he had an advertising agency in New York. When I was there, it was on Madison Avenue. Madison Avenue is the place for advertising in the world. It’s the place where the show *Mad Men* was made from. DDB is one of the biggest agencies, and Spike had a joint venture with them.

01:48What brought you to New York in the first place?

01:50Curiosity. I graduated from Wesleyan University in Middletown, Connecticut, and it was just time to apply to med school, and I really didn't want to.

02:00New York was right there—an hour and a half from school—and I really didn't have a plan. I just went, trying to escape what I thought was my destiny. As many people say in this business, I kind of fell into this.

02:18But I think my destiny actually came to find me. I opened up and allowed for something greater that I didn't even know was possible to find me instead.

02:30So many people are in that chapter of their lives where they’re trying to find their destiny or figure out a way to let their destiny find them. When you look back and connect the dots as to how your career came to be, you think about that first moment on Madison Avenue working for Spike Lee.

02:45If your daughter comes to you and says, "Mom, what advice have you got for me on finding my destiny? What have I got to do to actively bring it about?"

02:55Have you ever heard that statement, "Let go and let God"? It’s a very Christian thing. In the Black church, there’s a lot of that. As if God is just going to sprinkle magic dust over you.

03:09I don't necessarily believe that just as a plain statement. I think the letting go is an action. It’s not surrender. It’s not like you just lay down and it's going to find you. You're not going to find your destiny sitting on the couch.

03:24The letting go for me is the letting go of preconceived ideas about what it is that you are going to do. Sometimes you're trying to do something and you keep hitting a wall. You think if you hit it one more time, it’s going to break.

03:41Sometimes you need to know that’s a cement wall. If you just move five feet to the right, it’s actually plaster and you're going to go right through. Letting go of this thought that "I’m going to do this thing right here" is the magic.

04:00It didn't just happen at that stage of my life; it’s happening right now. I think I am done with my corporate CMO work. I believe I’m finished, so I’m going to let go of it. I’m not going to be actively looking for the next CMO job.

04:18I want whatever is coming for me to come. I’m going to allow space for it. Now, that doesn't mean I’m just sitting around. I’m also trying to polish other skills. I’m trying to create, because perhaps the next thing that's coming is somewhere more in that space. I can feel it in my spirit.

04:36That understanding of your intuition, if you're listening to it, is like a magnet. It's just going to draw you closer to the thing that you're supposed to do. And it has happened every single time.

04:52Every job, every move I've made hasn't been because somebody said, "Oh, this makes logical sense; one plus one equals two." Sometimes I'm just like, it’s not math, though. It’s physics.

05:07It's not the addition; it's the subtraction. I'm just going to sit here, then I'm going to get up and go talk to this person and that person, then sit back down again and write this thing out. Then, like magic—because I don't know how else to describe it—the destiny appears.

05:25Every time it has happened, even when people were like, "That is never going to happen, you're wasting your time." I just felt something inside telling me this is the way to go.

05:43You worked at Endeavor—the company that owns the UFC and WWE—Beats, Uber, Netflix, Apple. It doesn't seem like there was a huge time for pause. You seemed to get right back at it all the time.

06:05How have personal tragedies fed into your career, and what role has your career played in dealing with those tragedies?

06:15I think especially Peter’s death—my late husband—made me impatient. Impatient is the wrong word, but it feels like impatience with life.

06:27Urgent?

06:28Urgent, for sure. The urgent life. Because I just have a much better understanding of not wasting my time or my energy.

06:40When I look at your story, I see someone who doesn't hang around if they don't like something. There’s contradictory career advice we often get—stay somewhere long enough because if you leave too quickly, people look at your resume and wonder why you were only there for two years. Where do you sit on knowing when to quit?

07:03Oh, God. I get criticism of that all the time. People say, "She can't handle adversity." Me? Are you out of your mind? If there was a poster child, it would be me.

07:18No, it’s not that I can’t handle adversity. I just put myself first.

07:23Are you selfish?

07:24Yes! Very much so. But that is not a bad thing. I am at the center of my life. No one is above me in my life. No one. Not even my kid. And she knows that.

07:40I try to instill the same in her. No one should be above her in her life. The life you're living is yours. I cannot be a great contributor to society, I can't be a good friend, I can't even be a good mom if I am not living the life that I want to live.

08:00If I'm not wholly happy in it, then absolutely I'm selfish.

08:05When you left Uber, you were quoted as saying, "You don't need to be the savior. You can save yourself too."

08:12And save yourself first is what I should have said. It’s like when you get on a plane and they tell you to put your mask on first before you help anyone else. Yes. In your life, too. Save yourself first.

08:27What was the career advice you wish someone had given you?

08:31Be selfish. In your life, in your career, think about yourself all of the time. When you're in a situation that doesn't serve you, think of yourself first.

08:44Oftentimes we're in situations that aren't serving us and we're thinking about how the other person is going to feel.

08:49But it’s the uncertainty that creates fear, right? "If I quit this job, where am I going to go? If I leave this relationship, what am I going to do?"

09:00Well, you should answer that. I'm not saying you quit without the answer. I’m saying you quit. If you keep putting it off, you're going to waste your life away.

09:12You're going to be so unhappy. You're going to have the Sunday scaries all the time. You’re going to be unsatisfied with your life, and that is the scariest thing. I do not want to be on my deathbed being unsatisfied with the life I lived.

09:27I could go tomorrow and I would be so satisfied with this life because I've done the things I wanted to do. I have goals and ambition, but I've lived this life on my own terms.

09:44What are you good at? When you do the diagnosis of your skill set, what brought you here?

09:54I’m good at seeing the forest—the whole picture. Sometimes in a forest, you have to clear this area to make space for the little village, because then those villagers can take care of the part of the forest that is burning.

10:13But sometimes people are only down at the trees and they can't see the burning part. I can see the forest. I can see the whole thing and where everything needs to move. It has helped me so much in my career.

10:28How does that make you a great marketer?

10:31Because I never look at a problem just as the problem. When I got to Uber, the problem was a huge campaign called "Delete Uber." People were mad at the company because of a lack of diversity, treatment of women, driver pay, and safety concerns.

10:53If I had just gone after one thing, it would have been whack-a-mole. You pop one down, another pops up. But I saw the forest. This was not an issue about whether Travis Kalanick hates women or Black people. This was about trust.

11:13Do you trust the CEO? Do you trust the driver? If you don't trust it, nothing I do is going to make you like the company. I could make half the C-suite people of color and women, and you'd still be like, "Yeah, but they're going to kidnap me."

11:30The best people you've encountered in marketing, what do they have in common?

11:34They're great storytellers. They can make you believe anything. The ones who make you believe that putting on a pair of Nikes somehow makes you LeBron James.

11:46What makes a great story?

11:49It’s close enough to the truth for you to believe it. You probably walk more confidently in those shoes. You're a better version of yourself.

12:00If I want to be a great marketer and I'm currently not, what do I need to do?

12:05Be more curious about people. Ask a lot of questions. Why do they do the things they do? Why do they like the things they like? If you're not curious about people, you're going to suck at this job.

12:19You can't just rely on what you know and your own experiences. Even though I say you should be a focus group of one—if you like something, maybe someone else will—you also have to be deeply curious about why people choose the things they choose.

12:38What’s your parting word to those who want to walk your path and be the CMO of the biggest companies in the world?

12:47There is no path. If somebody tells you to do these steps to get where I’ve got, they are lying to you. You're not going to get there based on the things I've done.

13:01The only way you're going to get there is by listening to yourself, following your intuition, and doing the things you’re really good at. Leave the rest alone. Get to know yourself better.

13:16We often confuse aspiration with admiration. We can admire someone without aspiring to walk their path. The only great person you can be is the greatest version of yourself.

13:30Exactly. Don't try to be me. Ever.

13:36If this conversation today has challenged your assumptions in any way, that's probably a good thing, because that's where growth begins. And if you're ready to start reaching people in a way that actually connects, our sponsor LinkedIn is offering you a $100 ad credit.

13:52Head over to linkedin.com/diary to get started. That’s linkedin.com/diary.

14:02*The Diary of a CEO* is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you’re eligible to save money when you bundle your home and auto policies.

14:18The process only takes minutes, and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary; not available in all states.