Dr. Rhonda Patrick

00:015 4 3 2 1 Dr. Rhonda Patrick. Hello. Hello. Welcome back. You You got a big fat book of notes over there. I do. Looks uh it's like intimidating. It's something I use like before I'm giving a talk or something like that where I like to something about writing handwriting things like helps me remember. Oh yeah. this. They've shown that I do that before shows. If you looked at my notebook and you think if you ever thought that I like actually wrote in my notebook, you would think I'm a crazy person because I'm writing the same thing over and over again. Like all work, no play makes Jack boy. It's I just like before a set, what I do is I just write out the key things that I wanted to work on and I'll write them out over and over again. So like I'll have a 100page notebook and it's like a 100 pages of like half of it's the same stuff over and over again. I Yeah, I I'm

00:56kind of the same way. like I I'll write out things like that are in more detail and then like you said I'll like write just just like a cue you know well like it's different when you're giving a talk at least like in academia like a PowerPoint talk you have a slide and the slide cues like a couple of minutes of talk so you you've got like it helps you remember what you're going to talk about yeah that would help for comedy I bet that's probably a good idea I should have a slideshow you know like that would actually be a really good idea for like particular points where you could show that you weren't lying. Like look, this is a real thing, you know? Right. Yeah. You have like a reference there like cuz there's a couple of uh things that I'm talking about in my new set where I have to I have to reassure people that I'm not making this up cuz it's so ridiculous,

01:41you know, and um like one of them was this woman who posed as a high school student. She was a 25-year-old police officer, super attractive, and she posed as a high school student and convinced a young boy to sell her marijuana and then arrested him. So, it was just an experiment like No, it was a sting operation. Wow. And he was a regular kid. He was an honor roll kid. Oh my god. And now he's a felon. That is crazy. Yeah. There it is. Teen falls in love with undercover cop and marijuana sting, gets arrested. Yeah. So, this is one of them. I would love to be able to put that up and go see I'm not because you could I guess you could just make stuff up if you wanted to. You know how But isn't that what comedians do? They make stuff. I mean you can a lot. But if you made something up like hey there was a story in the news and you just made it up. That sounds cra I guess it who cares

02:32if it's funny you know if people just come to laugh but yeah I guess you're right. People like comedians usually make up personal stories but sometimes there they say it's true and I'm like it's so outrageous. Is it really true? Like I don't know because it's just so funny, you know, like some of the stories that that some of these comedians tell and I'm just like how can this be true? They said it was true but it's like are they is that part of comedy? Can you do that? Okay. Yeah, you definitely can. My friend Dera has a really funny joke about that. He goes uh he goes he's a true story. He goes, "Hey, how about you just make something up that's funny?" You know, like it doesn't have to be true, buddy. Which I can't. But then they say it's true. So it's kind of like messing with you because the whole time they're doing their bit, you're like, "Is that really true?" cuz that's hilarious.

03:14Yeah, sometimes it's true, sometimes it's not. I guess it depends depends on the person. Yeah, but I assume everything in your notebook is true. Well, I hope so. You know, the other thing that helps me like so this this helps, you know, writing it down helps me, but also there's uh the running running like helps. So, actually this was very interesting because a study just came out not long ago showing that if you so if you run before you're going to learn something and you want to like let's say you want to like you know do something short-term recall. So you're going to go up on stage and say something you know say a skit or whatever and um if you run right before that it improves the shortterm like memory. So your short-term recall if you run right before whatever it is you're you quickly read over something and then you want to remember it. But if you are

04:03learning something and then you run after you learn it and then like the next day you want to remember it. So it's more of a longer term memory, it improves that. So it's like whether or not you're running before after you learn it affects the short-term versus long-term memory. Wow. How did they work that out? That's bizarre. Well, it it wasn't like they were testing for that. They just found it out through because they were just, you know, doing running before after. they're probably looking at just to see how it affects short and long-term memory recall. And they were surprised to find out this was a study that was done. Um I can't remember where it was done. I know I tweeted about it not long ago cuz it was like within this last month that it came out. So you know it's like if you want to if you want to so like while I'm you know learning new material throughout the day and then I

04:48go for a run in the evening and then the next day I'll be able to recall it better theoretically. Now I'm subject to the placebo effect cuz I know about this. So I'm like, "Oh, right. That's a problem." Yeah. I don't run normally, but I did a 5K on Monday. Like I don't run at all, but a buddy of mine had a 5K race in Vegas, so I flew in for him and my friend Cameron Haynes and um I ran it and it was surprisingly hard. I was like with all the working out I do, I like it's only three miles. It's like 3.1 or something. Like how hard is that? It's hard. It's not easy. Yeah. No. So do you do any like aerobic exercise? Yeah. between kickboxing, jiu-jitsu, and um I do elliptical machine a lot. And I do a lot of yoga. I've been doing I've been trying to do yoga three times a week. I'm not always successful at getting in there. I got there last week three times a week, but um I don't run

05:39so I figured but all that stuff I do I'm like I'll have I'll be fine. Nope, not really. So you didn't train at all. You just kind of like on the fly just did this 5k. Yeah. Now, I saw I saw you post something about this and um isn't doesn't Cameron isn't he like some kind of like crazy runner? Like, he's a freak. Yeah. He's preparing right now for the Moab race, which is 235 or 234 miles, something crazy like that. And Jamie's a runner. So, when Jamie shakes his head like that, you know it's really gross. Yeah, that's incredible. Yeah, he's he's a nut. He did 205 last year. He did the Bigfoot 200, which is 205 miles. Plus, it has something insane like 55,000 ft of elevation change over the course of the entire race cuz you're constantly going up and down and up and down. And at some points in the race, it's so steep and the terrain, it's an outdoor race over Mount St. Helens. So,

06:32and sometimes the terrain is so brutal that the top speed is 2 miles an hour. He's going to be like one of those like amazing super aers like like like that just very mentally sharp when he's in when he's older. either that or he's not going to be. That's been shown like it's been shown like if you part of being a superager like being a superager means you're old but you're you're physically fit. You're mentally sharp and mentally sharp is is really the key thing you know cuz we start losing brain mass at like the age of 20 and by the time if you can actually make it to 100 years old you lose like 20% of your brain mass. So, wo they found that um one of the keys to like maintaining your brain mass is pushing past uh that comfortable zone physically. So, like you know exercise-wise and also um mentally just you know obviously like like learning new things and challenging yourself. So,

07:27you know, so when you're working out you don't do this kind of like you know halfass thing. You have to push yourself. You have to really push yourself and that seems to be key for becoming a super eager. That's crazy that it works with your brain. Why? Exercise has profound effects on your brain. I mean specifically if you're looking at you know aerobic aerobic exercise um aerob you know it's hard aerobic exercise as as you said doing a 5k running three miles. I mean you do you do a lot of training and yet that was still hard for you you know because doing that type of aerobic exercise is difficult. Um studies have shown that even just like 20 to 30 minutes of aerobic exercise can in healthy young men increase um serum BDNF. So which is brain drive neurotrphic factor. This is a growth factor that is involved in growing new brain cells and in allowing

08:21the existing brain cells to survive. So, you know, talking about combating brain atrophy, you're talking about combating that the fact that your brain is um atrophying starting at the age of 20. That's the way to do it. Your brain starts to atrophy at 20. At 20, you start to lose brain mass. Oh my god, I'm doomed. I know. It's really frightening. 20? You start at your peak at 20? Yes. But I was so stupid at 20. I'm so much smarter than I was when I was 20. No, I agree. I agree. Even though I'm still stupid. I mean, it's not necessarily like brain mass and intelligence. I mean I don't know if you know that there's definitely a coralate but but like when you start losing mass in your hippocampus I mean that's memory learning you know that part of the brain um but there's just so many studies showing that exercise aerobic exercise and also you know it doesn't have to be

09:09aerobic you can do resistance training that sort of stuff also affects the brain as well um but for me like I've been a runner since high school and track I guess long a long time and for me you know I've done like a few races. I've done a marathon and I don't feel like marathons are my thing. Like I felt like that was just really rough, you know, like it was I mean I'll run three miles and and I will feel challenged like if I you know push myself I can do that and that I feel like doing that a couple times three times a week is plenty for me but when I run you know for me it's um my I enter this like state of of like daydreaming sort of I get creative you know when I'm going on a like a three-mile run I'm just I start thinking about things um if I have an important decision to make or something that's causing me some some sort of anxiety, I go for a run and I feel like

10:03I can address that issue better. And what's interesting is that there have been studies that have shown that going for a run um and specifically aerobic exercise, it activates the part of your brain involved in executive function, which helps you make decisions. You know, it's it's kind of like that overarching part of your brain that like helps with all the planning, long-term planning and all that. So, I always I do I feel like if I go for a run, if something's bothering me, if I'm anxious, I'm I always feel better 100% of the time. Like, there's not a single time that I go for a run and I'm like, damn, I feel worse. Why did I do that? You know, it's like I feel I feel like crap while I'm doing it. I'm like, "Oh, this is awful." Well, I feel like the human mind I mean, this is all just theoretical and my own theories. I think the human mind is designed to confront

10:50serious things like like predators and you know dangerous enemies and and we don't really get much of that in this life. So when a person is dealing with stress I think the mind is preparing for some things that don't exist. So even if you can work things out logically, there still remains like this residual effect of all these human reward systems that are kind of in place from the time we really did have to have all those re those reactions in place to deal with, you know, uh, dangerous invaders or, you know, horrible natural conditions, you know, whatever they would be that we hardly ever experience anymore. So, like when I work out, if I have uh anything that's bothering me or troubling me, I I think I get like a distorted perception of the danger of it or the physical real like it could be something real simple like I have uh an issue at work that I have to

11:48deal with. Like maybe I have to make a decision or maybe, you know, I'm stressed about something and I I feel this no matter how much I work it out logically, I still feel this physical like residual issue. And that issue only seems to be resolved for me because I don't run with hitting the bag. Like for me it's a punching bag. Like it's which is really hard to do. Like when you when you do rounds like kickboxing rounds on a bag, I have a timer and I can set it for 3 to 5 minutes. Uh actually it'll it'll allow you set it all the way down to one. And then it has like intervals. So it gives me like 30 seconds. Every 30 seconds a buzzer will go off. And it has two lights. One light is uh yellow and one light is blue. And so the yellow light I kind of um I go at like uh 60 70% and then the blue light I sprint. So it's like sprint, try to catch your breath, sprint, try to catch your

12:39breath. And I do that for seven to eight rounds. And when I do that, I don't give a about anything after it's over. I'm like who cares? Like it it's amazing what it does cuz like my mind still has all the same data. I still understand all whatever it is. like it's whatever workrelated nonsense. I still understand all the issues about it and they're all there's no new information but now the information is coming into my brain and it's going oh this isn't a foreign invader. These aren't Vikings that are coming over in a a boat with a dragon's head at the front of it swinging swords. Like, this is just some nonsense, whatever it is, you know, agent issue or manager issue or tax issue or whatever the it is that seems so physically daunting before the exercise, but then afterwards when that aspect of the problem is alleviated, that that stress, it's almost like my

13:29our bodies are just like confused as to what these problems actually are. I'm like I love I love your your interpretation of this because it's exactly um the way that I would like to talk about why we need this type of stress. I actually just like you said I actually think that from an evolutionary like evolutionary perspective that we were meant to be stressed. We were meant we were meant to be outside either hunting, tilling the land for food, you know, to prepare food, um out bombarded by UVB, radiation, which is stressful. We were designed to, you know, have stress. And what I mean by designed was we have genetic switches which are supposed to be turned on. These genetic switches that are activated by stress are supposed to be turned on. And just like you said, we're in a really novel time now where we don't have to go outside. We don't have to till the land. We don't

14:30have to hunt for our food. We can sit in we can sit on the couch on our butt all day and order delivery or go to the grocery store and we don't have to eat foods with, you know, polyphenols or flavonoids or things that are also slightly stressful, you know. So, this is kind of that concept of hormesis. But it's it's I like the way you you explained it because I really agree with you. I think that humans were meant to be stressed. Uh, exercise is a form of that stress and there's different various different types of of that stress. Um, and I and I think that we were supposed to switch on those those genetic switches, those genes that are helping us deal with stress. So, like, you know, like you said, you have a problem and I I'm the same way with my run. I'll have some something that's bothering me. I have to deal with whatever it is. I mean, in my mind, I

15:16blow it up. up. It may not even be that big big of a deal, but I go for a run with no new information, with nothing new, you know, like I feel better. And I think that's partly because I'm switching on all these, you know, stress response pathways that help me deal with the stress better, these anti-inflammatory pathways, just all this like really good, you know, these good genetic switches that are being switched on. So, it totally makes sense. I I think this new time that we live in, I I just don't necessarily think the body understands where the stress is coming from. I think, you know, your body's a physical organism and nature is an absolutely brutal thing and it has been for us as well as for all these other animals forever. But now for us, it's not really that brutal anymore. And so all these mechanisms are in place to protect you and they don't get served.

16:07And for me, um, martial arts has always been like the best one to deal with it. Although weightlifting is good, too, like uh a good kettle bell workout does it too. But like the big ones for me are jiu-jitsu and kickboxing because jiu-jitsu is really really hard to do and it's also you are solving problems. So I think jiu-jitsu serves two purposes. It's incredibly grueling as far as like the sparring process of just rolling and you know and competing with each other even in a friendly role like with a a guy that I really like and we're laughing and we slap hands you know every time someone gets tapped out or whatever. It's so difficult like your your your body is taxed so hard and your mind is taxed because you're dealing with countering. You're dealing with setting up moves. you're dealing with, you're thinking several steps ahead and then you're you're adjusting those

17:01thoughts based on whatever this person that you're sparring with is doing too. So, people get really really addicted to jiu-jitsu for all the right reasons. And one of the things that I found is that jiu-jitsu people like for the most part are way more mellow than most people would expect. Like way more chill about stuff. like way less likely to respond to something in a dumb or uh an imbalanced way because they whatever your body whatever these requirements are that we're addressing. Your body has all that in jiu-jitsu but without the real real violence. You know what I mean? Like no one's trying to kill you. They're just trying to do this thing to you and you're trying to do that thing to them. And those things mimic actual combat, actual real life and death struggle in a friendly. And it also it has this camaraderie built into it too because you've kind of understand that

17:56you're going through this incredibly intense thing together. And you also understand that it takes a unique person to go through that and and get past all these psychological hurdles, all these physiological hurdles. And then you also are aware that this person understands like really clearly the kinship that you all share in having this experience together. That's really that's really neat. I kind of relate. I mean not to the same degree like what you're what you're describing is on a whole other level, but um I I experience something similar when I'm when I'm out surfing. Um, you know, it's I'm I'm getting the physical exercise, but I'm also like attacking these fears of these big waves and getting pulled under and drowning and getting tangled with my cord. You know, there's like a million and every time I do it, I always have that fear paddling out there. But I get out there,

18:50there's a group of surfers and we're all sitting out there and there is a sort of, you know, friendship that we develop out there cuz we all love surfing and we've all like, you know, we know it's like, oh, here comes the wave. we're, you know, helping each other like, look, there's one on the outside paddle out, you know. So, it's kind of like um completely like uh different level from what you're describing with jiu-jitsu, but still I kind of can relate a little bit, you know? I think you I don't know if it is a different level. And a lot of jiu-jitsu people surf as well. I think there's like a similar attraction to it, but because also you're a monster dodger. Like you're out there in the monster soup. Yeah. It's it's um that's what that is. It's crazy that I still haven't, you know, you'd think that after doing it for so many years that I would get over that fear, but

19:38waves are so they are so powerful. Yeah. I mean, how can you get over that fear? I'm um my friend Shane Dorian is a a big wave surfer and he's been on the podcast before and he's a big- time bow hunter too and we talk all the time about this and you know um the way he describes it is just it's so attractive like I want to try it but there's not enough hours in a day for me. There's not I'm I'm I get too addicted to things and it's just and I have a real fear of sharks. It's real. Sharks are scary. They're really scary. They're so But they're real. They're out there. Oh Jesus. What is this, Jamie? This is Shane Dorian's Big Wave. Oh my god. My hands are sweating watching this. He is out of his mind. Totally. He's a legit maniac. Wow. Like that is What is How high would you say that wave is? It's got to be 50 ft, right? Oh, yeah. Say it's in Hawaii. It's called Jaws is

20:32the name of the wave. Jaws. Oh my god. Look at the size of that. Is so insane. That's so insane. I'm like losing my mind just when I see these guys big wave surfing like this. My heart starts racing. I'm so anxious right now watching. Oh my god, it's so insane. That's more than 50 feet, right? I would say at the very peak of it, it it does look like it's more than a 50ft face. Now, when it comes down, does it say there on the YouTube thing? No. When it comes down on you, I mean, it doesn't really matter. When it if it that if that if you got smooshed, like if you fell and that came down on you, I mean, you're you're probably right? That's that's the fear. Yeah. I mean, go a damn. I mean, the biggest wave I've ever surfed is like overhead, you know, like over time and a half overhead. So, not even double overhead. So, and and that was like I had a couple of um scary moments where I

21:23was just tumbling during donuts and I couldn't find which way was up or down, you know? It was like I've had one time I was surfing out in this place in San Diego called Sunset Cliffs and it's a reef break and it's really hard to get out there. So you have to like time you have to like jump out when the you know after the wave you know breaks and then you paddle out and there's all these kelp beds and I was surfing there this one time and this was back when I was really dumb and didn't wear a leash because I was like leashes you know I like to dance on my board and they get on my way and so I didn't wear a leash but um I I you know there's a big wave and I was riding it and I wiped out and I like got caught in the kelp. Oh And so it was like the scare, you know, you have this moment where you panic and that's really bad like panicking when you're like in the water cuz panic takes

22:10like your energy and and I panicked and I was cuz I'm I thought I was going to die. I was going to suffocate this kelp bed. So and I remember having nightmares. Yes. I've had nightmares about it. Like it that stuck with me. That was like that was one of those um moments that you know sort of traumatizing in a way. How long did it take to get out of the kelp? I don't remember. I don't remember because it was just I think the panic sort of I just lost track. It seemed like forever to me like I don't know how long it actually took. And of course I lost my board and I like swimming and Wow. I got cut up on the reef. Yeah, reefs are brutal. Reefs are brutal. Yeah, I I actually stick to uh beach breaks now, but I don't, like you said, I don't even get to surf that much anymore because I just don't have time. M. So people that that when they surf breaks that are over

22:59those reefs like you just can't wipe out. If you wipe out you're going to go right into all that jagged right? Yeah. It depends on where the reef is like like I was riding the wave in kind of in more so I was closer to where the reef was. But yes, you can it's it's dangerous there. Beginners should not ever go out on a reef and I've seen many beginners out there. But it's Yeah, it's definitely more dangerous. just feel all the scratches and cuts and Yep. pretty pretty pretty brutal. But do you have any shark encounters? No. Um the only sharks I've actually actually I shouldn't say that's not that's not actually accurate. I don't have any scary shark encounters. Um I I served for a long time in La Hoya and there's a breeding ground there for um leopard sharks which are not to be confused with tiger sharks. Tiger sharks are definitely scary. Leopard sharks are the

23:50ones that have like the spots on them and they're really harmless. Um they're kind of like nurse sharks. Yeah. Oh, they don't eat. They're not like um they're like they're like sand sharks. They're just swim around. No big deal. Yeah. And they're really cool to look at. But I've never had I've never actually known anyone that surfs in Southern California that has, you know, with all the surfers that I've known that has had an encounter in Southern California with a shark. I do know people that have encountered them in the Bay Area. Yeah, the Bay Area is a big breeding ground for great whites. I would never surf there. Really? No, I would never surf. No, I would never surf there. Too scary. Yeah, the sharks. Look at you. You say, "Yeah, the sharks, but they're all It's all connected." It's like, "Don't go outside. There's a bad neighborhood somewhere." Well, there

24:34they can move around. I guess just in my head, I sort of like convinced myself that they're not they're not coming to San Diego. There's a uh video of a drone flying over Malibu where some guy takes a drone and he's flying over the Malibu uh surf and he's like the drone is like maybe a few hundred yards away from some surfers and you see a big great white just swimming along just swimming along. Don't show me this video. Drone shark footage. So here's these people. They're all on this board like, "Hey man, we're just Southern California. No big deal. And when the drone keeps going further and further out, you see this whopper shark that's not far away from these people. We'll find it here. Jamie will find it. There's one right there. There's one right there. Where is this? Oh, nothing. Just in southern Oh, nothing. Just a shark right there. I've definitely surfed mountain before.

25:32Right there. What the Damn it, Joe. Don't show me this. Well, you know, you're a smart woman. You understand? I do. It's monster soup. I try not to think about the sharks, though. Well, it's a Oh, look. There's two of them. Interesting. Look at that surfer and two sharks. No big deal, guys. Yeah, that's pretty scary. Yeah, it's it's supposed to be scary. Just I don't know. I know. Apparently, Catalina, that whole area outside of Catalina is uh a crazy shark fishing mecca where I have a friend of mine from Texas and he traveled to Catalina Island and he said it is the most savage stretch of water in all of North America. He said is just infested with mako sharks and uh they go out there to catch mako sharks which are delicious. Mako sharks are really really good to eat too. They taste like swordfish. They taste amazing. Are they dangerous like Oh yeah, they'll you

26:25up. they'll bite you. But the thing about um sharks now, it's because of people are so silly because of the awareness of shark fin soup, you know, because shark fin soup is the the practice of acquiring shark fins is really brutal and not sustainable at all. It's really horrific. And a lot of uh Asian uh fisheries engage in these unsustainable practices where they'll scoop up thousands and thousands of sharks, cut their fins off, and then throw them right back in the water. So they waste most of the shark in order to get the fins for shark fish soup. And so because they're trying to raise awareness of this now, people are getting really upset at anyone who catches sharks, even if they catch sharks legally for food, because sharks are not endangered and is more is any in any more uh a sense than tuna is endangered. Cuz tuna are in vastly diminished numbers than they were just a

27:22few decades ago. If you talk to anyone who's a commercial fisherman or even a a sport fisherman like these guys that run these charter boats, they'll tell you like you used to catch way more tuna. It used to be way more prevalent. I think that was something they addressed in that Jirro Dreams of Sushi movie as well is that the commercial fishing is just brutalizing the tuna market, but yet everybody still eats tuna and they don't think twice about it. Because this campaign against shark fin soup has made people like really upset at people that catch sharks to eat. Even people that eat meat, it's like we're so simplistic in like our protesting and like people just have it in their head that I heard that you're not supposed to eat sharks anymore. Like are you catching sharks? You Like like that is the one thing that you know I mean if if you you want to talk about like fish

28:08that don't do no harm to human beings like sharks aren't on that list, you know? I mean this is this is a scary goddamn animal and if you could eat that I say kudos kudos to you. Aren't because sharks are higher up on the uh food chain. Don't they have higher mercury levels? It's a good question because I know like swordfish like I would not eat swordfish really. Hell no. No. Yeah. There is like I wish I could remember the amount. It's something like 150 micrograms per like 4 ounces or something. So compare that to uh wild Atlantic salmon which has like four micrograms. Wa. Yeah. Swordfish. Uh, so the ones that are really safe to eat that I know of, um, are the the wild Atlantic salmon, uh, wild Alaskan, sorry, not Atlantic, wild Alaskan salmon, cod, um, let's see, white tuna is okay, but the albort tuna has a little bit more mercury. I think it's like, you know, twice as much or

29:10something. But I'm a I'm a little thinking that, you know, shark would be high on the mercury level. That's interesting. I'd like to find that out because I know that people have had issues that eat a tremendous amount of sushi. People that eat sushi like every day, I know they have had issues with mercury in the past. I actually had an arsenic issue with um sardines cuz sardines are bottom dwellers and uh I used to eat sardines all the time. I have I love sardines. Yeah, I love sardines too. And if you eat canned sardines too much, I got some blood work done. And the doctor was like, you have some significant amounts of arsenic in your system. I'm like, am I being poisoned? He's like, no, not not that. He goes, it's not like someone's trying to kill you, but it is like a dietary issue. And then he asked me what I ate. And I said, you know, we went through

29:57all my food. He's like, nothing else. I go, he goes, what about seafood? I go, oh, yeah, I eat seafood. Oh, yeah. I eat a lot of sardines. He's like, that's it. I didn't know sardines uh accumulated arsenic. I guess that makes sense. I backed off. I didn't eat sardines at all for 3 months. Came back, the issue was completely resolved. Yeah. You know what? Um, besides sweat, you sweat out a lot of these heavy metals like mercury, arsenic, um, garlic. Some of the beta recaps in garlic, they keelate, they bind and chilate mercury and help pull it and like excrete it out of your body through urine. So, like when I whenever I make salmon or fish, which I I actually do eat a lot of salmon, I probably eat it like two or three times a week. Um I always have fresh garlic with it. Oh, wow. That's amazing. And salmon is outstanding, too, because it's so high in essential fatty acids. It's

30:48really good for you. Exactly. Yeah, it's really high in omega-3 fatty acids, um EPA and DHA. So, and then it's got a modest amount of vitamin D. Whenever I'm sick, I eat giant cloves of garlic. I'll just break it down to point where it makes me feel horrible. I'll have like a big glass of kombucha and I'll take like a lump of garlic and I'll break off like four or five cloves and I'll just take off the skin and chew those down and chug it with kombucha and it's awful. Like sometimes it it's painful as it's going down like my my system is like what in the is this? Like I could feel it inside my body burning. I love it. I' I've done the same thing previously. I mean, I don't do that anymore, but uh yeah, I mean, garlic is very powerful antimicrobial compounds in it. So, I mean, that, you know, makes perfect sense. Lots of Last time I did it, I went I had to take a knee. Mhm. A

31:41knee? Yeah. I had to go down on a knee. Really? Yeah. Like I didn't actually go down, but what I did was I put both my arms on the counter and I went down like this. Like, oh, cuz it was just burning going down. was I just was like, "What? This is probably not even working. I'm just being retarded." You know, getting back to some of those like pungent compounds that are in these these these plants. I mean, that kind of gets back to what we were talking about a minute ago with switching on those genetic switches that are um meant to be switched on. They're me, we're supposed to eat these kinds of foods. Garlic, you know, broccoli, cauliflower, you know, kale, these things that have that pungent mustard, you know, that that pungent taste. I mean, these things are um, you know, various different polyphenols and compounds. And one in particular I become obsessed with lately is

32:35sulfurophane. And that's present in most of the cruciferous family like kale, broccoli, cabbage, Brussels sprouts, wasabi, um bok choy, just you know that whole family of vegetables pretty much. I I eat those vegetables a lot. But I become very obsessed with this this compound um that is it's actually sulfurophane is not in the plant. It gets formed once you um break the plant tissue once it's like chewed or crushed or blended or whatever chopped somehow because it's stored as a precursor and then once um the tissue gets you know chopped or or whatever uh then it forms sulfurophane and that's part of its you know hormetic respon it's its plant response to try to like ward off in insects or whatever thing. So that's that's why it forms. But it actually when we ingest it, it's really really really good for us, you know. So the sulfurophane in particular um which is

33:35actually really really high in broccoli sprouts. Have you ever had broccoli sprouts? Yes, I have. Yeah. So broccoli sprouts actually contain like 100 times more of it than mature broccoli. So it's like probably the best source of of sulfurophane, dietary source of sulfurophane out there. I saw on your Instagram that you you make shakes with that, right? I do. Yeah. I've become sort of convinced that it's a very powerful anti-aging and also powerful um neutropic in a way, I guess I could say. Um and I can elaborate, but you know, so I've been doing these shakes where you can you can sprout you can, you know, sprout your own sprouts at home for relatively cheap. You just buy some organic seeds. There I am. You look like a weed dealer. That's what about That's what everyone said on my Instagram. 3.5 lbs of broccoli sprouts. Wink wink. That's what they're calling it, these

34:29kids. Believe it or not though, if you freeze them. So, I was actually I'm freeze. So, those bags are going in the freezer when you freeze them because when you freeze the plant, the tissue also gets like broken. It actually um doubles in some cases. You can up to double the amount of sulfurophane because it like has a longer time to form this. So you can actually have a more concentrated I learned that the hard way. But um how what what hard way? Well, I mean just because it's so pungent and powerful that if you make a shake with it and you're doing like at first I was doing fresh shakes and then we started freezing them and I was making shakes that were, you know, from previously frozen sprouts and it's like I needed like half the dose um you know to feel to feel the same thing or if I feel um Okay. So, I guess I should probably, you know, it's kind of just like

35:24like when you drink coffee, you know how you kind of just you feel a little peppy and good and you feel a little more alert? Um, sort of like that. And it's the the thing is is that it's it's been shown. And so there have been clinical studies in humans and this is very interesting because it's been shown um like if you give it you give you know even just a small amount I think it was like between 7 to 30 milligrams of sulurophane a day to to um young adults with autism. It improved their autistic scores by like 34%. and autistic scores. They like there's a you know a range of different you know tests that are done to like measure different various brain functions but it improved this and this autistic you know these autistic individuals by like 34%. The same was done um in a pilot study for people with schizophrenia where it like improved their their symptoms so they're just

36:21their brain functions better. Wow. Yeah. So, and this is like pretty um it the the results were so powerful that you know this was done at John's Hopkins. The study is now being repeated um you know because it's like this is what is going on here like how is this affecting the brain? And I think, you know, if you look at a lot of the animal studies, there's lots and lots of animal studies that have been done, uh, which are, you know, people aren't quite as convinced because it's like, well, how much of this relates to humans, but it's been shown to, um, be as as effective as, um, the the antid-depressant Prozac in alleviating depression in mice. And they do all these battery of tests where they like stress the mice out and make them depressed and social defeat and like they hang them by their tail. It's actually just kind of gnarly. But and then you know there's like you know a

37:06bunch of tests they do to see if they're depressed and you give them you know your your placebo you give them Prozac or you give them the the broccoli sprout extract and it performed just as well. Um so it helps depression. Um it's been shown to help with neurodeenerative diseases all sorts of things. But the point is I think that the reason it's actually affecting all these brain functions and why even you know someone like me may notice a small effect from from eating them is because uh it has very profound effect on inflammation and that is because as I mentioned it's it switches on one of those switches that was meant to be switched on a pathway called NRF2 in our body that controls over 200 genes and sulfurophane is the most potent naturally occurring compound that we've discovered yet that activates this pathway. So it's no other plant compound, no other naturally occurring

37:59plant compound can activate this pathway as potent as sulfurophane. And NRF2 um is I mean it's been shown in multiple studies to be involved in um delaying aging and a lot of that happens through lowering tons of different in you know inflammatory genes activating anti-inflammatory genes lowering oxidative stress all these glutathione related enzymes. It helps with detoxifying compounds that we're exposed to on a daily basis like carcinogens and things. So, I think that we're having a low level of this like inflammation stuff that we're constantly being exposed to and it affects the brain, you know. So, if you're if you get a dose of this, you you may notice a small effect. Now, with someone that has autism or schizophrenia, inflammation and oxidative stress have been shown in previous studies, multiple previous studies to to play a role in in the ideology of those diseases. So, I think

38:50that's how it may be affecting um the brain, but it's not just affecting the brain. And probably one of the most well-known um functions of sulfurophane is that it's like a very powerful uh cancer preventative um compound. So it's, you know, it's been shown to prevent cancer. Uh, for example, if you men that had prostate cancer when they were given um 60 milligrams of sulfurophane a day for I think it was like a month. I don't remember exactly how long, but it lowered um it slowed the doubling rate of a tumor um biioarker called prostate uh specific antigen PSA, which is what is usually measured when men have prostate cancer. You you measure the pro progression of it because it has a doubling rate. It doubles every so often, but it slowed that doubling rate by 86%. Which is pretty pretty uh profound. Of course, there's lots and lots of associative studies that have shown

39:43cruciferous vegetables, you know, if you eat more of them, you have lower risk of bladder, ovarian, prostate, kidney, just all sorts of cancers. Um, but there's the clinical trials, I think, are what's really telling. um because they're, you know, you're giving someone this compound and it's lowering a tumor progressive progression marker by 86%. Um there's another study which is really interesting also and this is kind of like what really got me interested. I'm not sure if other people are interested in it, but um you know, we're exposed to to compounds from like air pollution. So like living in Los Angeles for example is probably like definitely one of the places that you're going to be more exposed to the to some of these airborne um carcinogens. So benzene's one of them. Acryine these things are in the air. Um we're breathing them in. We you know we're getting to some degree we

40:34have it. We have you know benzene in our system and it is a carcinogen. It's been shown to um cause cancer specifically linked to leukemias. Uh smokers get a ton of it because it's in it's in uh cigarettes. So cigarette smokers are like really loaded up with benzene. But there was a study where people were given like 40 milligrams of the sulurophane in the form of a broccoli sprout drink a day for like a week and starting on day one of of drinking this drink. Um they excreted 61% of the benzene like on day one 61% of benzene was just coming out of their urine like as you measure in metabolites. And I was like wow that is amazing. like getting rid of some of that stuff, you know, I, you know, cuz I'm definitely want to get rid of the benzene and all that stuff um that I'm being exposed to. So, that really got my attention too because it was just so significant and a profound

41:27of effect just after one day. Um, so that that was another sort of thing that got me really into it. And then the aging stuff where you know it's been shown um so inflammation has been identified as a key aager of aging. taking sulfurophane has been shown to lower inflammatory markers in people um by like 20% C reactive protein other inflammatory markers of course there's like dozens of studies in animals that have been done but I'm sort of I think the human studies are more interesting to talk about so definitely more relevant um and then also it's been shown to affect uh cardiovascular health because of the inflammation I think so type 2 diabetics that were given uh some some dose I think it was something around 40 milligrams as well of sulfurophane. They were given this daily and for a month for four weeks and it lowered uh their triglycerides by 20%. It lowered their

42:19aogenic index which is like measuring you know the the dangerous type of LDL small dense LDL triglycerides looking at all these things. It lowered that by 50%. Improved their blood sugar by like almost 20%. So that's like I'm getting that my mom I'm trying to get my mom on this. some, you know, my mom, she she definitely's got like high triglycerides, you know, thing, you know. So, I'm really convinced. And then there's been studies in animals that's just shown that it like delays aging. So, I'm convinced that I think it's one of those things like you get it in kale and I think that I've been getting a good dose of it. I've been drinking kale smoothies um pretty regularly since um probably like 2010. Yeah, probably about six or seven years. And I do feel like it's like helped age like helped me age like a little better. I mean, it could be completely in my

43:11mind, but just because I know kale is kale is healthy. But I think that I've found something to take it to another level where I think that I'm pretty convinced that if I continue taking the sulfurophane, um, I think it will absolutely affect the way I age and I think it'll affect my brain aging as well. I mean, it's been shown to at least in animal studies to affect brain aging, traumatic brain injury. I mean, if you administer it after traumatic brain injury, it improves outcome. Um, improves like brain swelling and all that by like 50%. You know, just all sorts of non It's just like I could go on. I have a video I did like a 45minute video where I'm literally just talking about this for 45 minutes and then I went on Is it on YouTube? It's on YouTube. Yeah. And I um I did this this research took months and it's like a 16page article I wrote um and I hope to get published. I think I'm

44:00going to submit it for publication because it's just it was a lot of work and I haven't seen anything in the literature as comprehensive covering every base like I just I tried to cover everything that was like a good study you know that was important and um so so um and then I flew out to John's Hopkins um recently I was invited to give a talk there and I met it just so happens the guy who discovered that first of all the guy who discovered sulfurophane is there but he's much older I didn't meet with I met with someone who trained with him um who discovered that broccoli sprouts are the best source of sulurophane. So, he made that discovery back in the '9s. Um, and I interviewed him and he just went on and on and on and talked about sulfurophane like in addition to like what I had already talked about on the one of the videos I did. Um, and he actually had some really interesting

44:47stuff to talk about in terms of like um you know you so in order to get the sulfurophane you have to the plant has to be crushed or chopped. Um, and that's because it has an enzyme in it called myosinesese. And my roinesese is um heat sensitive. So when you when you when you steam your broccoli, when you boil your kale, when you sauté your kale, any of that stuff, unfortunately, you're inactivating my so you're not getting as much sulfurophane. You're getting dramatically less. I mean, dramatic almost non almost non-existent. The precursor glucaraphin is still in that plant. So, so you're getting the precursor and we do have some bacteria, some types of bifidobacteria in our gut that contain the myroinase enzyme. Highly variable from individual to individual but so you can convert some of that to sulfurophane. But what was interesting that he mentioned is you can

45:43actually sprinkle mustard powder like mustard powder that you buy um after you sauté your kale or after you steam your vegetables or ste what if you cook if you apply heat to any of your cruciferous vegetables afterwards you put the mustard powder on mustard powder it has active myosines in it and it's pretty these in the mustard seed is more um heat stable. So, so you could you can actually convert your, you know, precursor into the sulfurane by adding the mustard powder. And I was like, that is a really great wow like thing to know because now I'm like cuz I do cook a lot of I sauté kale all the time. Um I, you know, I steam my broccoli, put some butter and salt and pepper. That's how I eat my broccoli. So, isn't there any Sorry to interrupt, but are there any compounds in kale that or broccoli or anything else that make them more bioavailable when you do cook them? Um,

46:37yeah. Yeah, I mean a lot of the minerals and stuff in it like magnesium, um the calcium, those things are those things become more bio bioavailable when you cook them and you so you would get that benefit. Plus if you just cooked it and then added the mustard too, right? But when the mustard seed powder, you have to make sure it's like what I like to do is sprinkle a little bit on my hand and like lick it. Like it's got to give it has to have that bite. If it doesn't have the bite, it's like it's been degraded. It's been on the shelf for too long. It's been in Amazon shelves for too long. Whatever, you know? So, um, yeah, it has to have that like mustard bite to it. Could you just use regular mustard like I don't think so. No, mustard seed. I think the mustard seed. Yeah. Uh, so that so that was a very useful like, you know, because the sulfurophane it's really good, Joe. I I

47:24really am I'm trying to like, you know, get people to I think the more people that get the sulfurophane life, I think they're going to be healthier. I think it can help prevent cancer, lower inflammation. I mean, just so many different good things. So smokers, for God's sake, if you're a smoker, they should be taking sulfur. They should be drinking those shakes I'm drinking drinking like every day. Yeah. You know, cuz they are getting so much benzene. So two two questions about this. One, where does someone get broccoli sprouts? Like where where would you get that? Well, so the thing is is that you can bro you can buy broccoli sprouts already sprouted at like Whole Foods or Sprouts or whatever your local, you know, grocery store is. Most most of grocery stores contain have broccoli sprouts. I've seen alalfa sprouts. I It's very rare that you find broccoli sprouts, isn't it? They're at

48:15Whole Foods. They're at Sprouts. Um but the problem here's the problem with buying sprouts. um they're very prone to to bacterial contamination like E.coli like the the longer they sit on the shelf and a lot of times when you're going into these grocery stores they're sitting on the shelf and so they're probably likely a little more contaminated with like EC coli than if you were to sprout them yourself and get them fresh. So, you can buy them. Um, but I think and they also charge like it's like five bucks for like a little like package of it, you know? It's And that's one shake, right? Yeah, I'd say one shake, whereas you can like spend 20 bucks and get like a pound of seeds. And so, how do you grow it? Um, well, there's lots of different methods. You can you can use hemp. Like so previously we used to do these hemp um hemp bags where we just put you put the seeds in

49:10the bag and you add some water uh you basically just keep adding water to them and let it drip and they sprout within like 4 days. Then we started doing this jar method where now we have mason jars with a lid on top that has like little holes that are big enough for water to come out obviously but not for the seeds to come out. And so you know you get these jars and you add water, let it sit for like 6 hours and then dump it out. And then you just after that you continually just add the water and dump it out and add the water and dump it out and and kind of leave it tilted so that the water isn't just like you don't want you know the water just sitting in there so that it's like growing bacteria and stuff. So So you like let you know tilt the water. So you just want it wet. Is that what it is? Yeah. Yeah. And it really just takes like 4 days and it and

49:51then you have sprouts. The only thing is you have you do have to be you know clean. like if your counter's all dirty and your hands are dirty and all the dishwear you're using is dirty, then you're probably going to contaminate them. So, you have to like be a little fidious about the way you sprout these things. Um, you know, but I think once you're aware of that, then it's okay. The other thing is, um, and this is something that I'm going to talk to to the expert. His name's Dr. Jed Fehee. I recently interviewed him on my podcast. He mentioned something to me that like caught my interest. He said the seed itself, the broccoli seed itself has the enzyme. It has the precursor to sulfurophane. And if you break or crush the seed or chew the seed, then you're actually getting sulfurophane. So you can actually crush up the seed in like a coffee grinder or something. Oh wow. And

50:42like take a shot of it. But the the thing is is there's been no research doing this method. So all these studies that I just talked about in humans, those were all done from like broccoli sprout powder extract from the sprouts. Powder extract. Is this something you could buy as a supplement? Great question. Um so well the powder extracts were mostly made by researchers. In fact, Jed Jed has supplied a lot of um a lot of different universities with the with the extract himself. Um but there are so supplement wise that's the other thing that he really sort of um illuminated for me because because he's actually been measuring this certain supplements that are on the market and like if they actually have what they say they have. Um and so because my is so unstable it is hard to make a supplement with sulfurophane. There is one supplement, only one that I

51:33know of that actually has sulfurophane, the actual active compound, and that's called prostaphane, and that's only available in France. Um, by the way, I have no affiliation with any of these like supplement companies at all. I'm just telling information. It's only available in France. It's only available in France. And so, and that so he actually tested that one. And people that were given prostphane, um, the bioavailability of the sulfurophane was 70%. And so 70% of it ended up like in their bloodstream. Um there's another supplement called Avacol. Avacol has glucaraphin plus myosinise in it. So it doesn't have the sulfurophane. It has the two compounds that can form sulfurophane but has them together. Um that has been tested and that was about 40% bio bioavailability. So about 40% of it was you were actually getting sulfurophane 40% of the time and that

52:27was um also tested. There's another supplement and that is available in the US. There's another supplement by Thor called uh Cusera I think and Crusera only has the precursor no enzyme. So you're totally relying on your gut bacteria and some people it's very variable. So that only had like a 10% bioavailability. Um, other than that, those are the three supplements that he really uh could, and this is an a study he just published recently that he got behind. I asked him about some a few others cuz I'd actually been taking there's another one called um Brocomax by Jarro and he kind of was like I asked him about it and he was kind of like it has some of what it says in there but not all, you know. And and the problem is is that these supplements I mean there's a lot of a lot of the times like he was telling me like gez like seven out of 10 times these supplements had

53:23like clover leaf in them when they were supposed to have like the cruciferous you know precursor glucaraphin. So, it's just like it's kind of disgusting how supplement company how subh supplement companies are, you know, totally just putting all this clover leaf and whatever. And there was a study that came out like a couple years ago on this like like 75% of all these like herbal echgonatia like all these you know compounds that are you know you know marketed for whatever don't actually even contain echynatia or whatever they say they contain. It's really it's really kind of bad. Yeah, it's a giant issue. And if you're a company that sells that stuff, a lot of times you're not even you're not even getting it directly from the source. You know, they're buying it from companies that supply it to them. And a lot of times these companies are in China and places

54:10where their regulations are not that strict. You can you can get just I mean we had an issue with that when we first started making AlphaBrain where we would get stuff tested. would get batches tested and the batches uh of different individual ingredients would have stuff in it that they weren't supposed to have in it just because they're mixing it all up in the same bins. Oh yeah, that's true. There's also that. Yeah. I mean, there's just you got to find a reliable brand, you know, and I think, you know, Thor Thorn seems to be a pretty reliable one that um I've seen in multiple multiple different, you know, times where scientists are like, "Yeah, we've tested that. It's more expensive, but they seem to be pretty reliable. So, it seems like the best method is to sprout your own broccoli sprouts, though. Yeah, I think that's the best method. And it seems

54:59like very cost effective, too, right? Exactly. It's cost effective. You don't you don't have to, you know, have extra cash to buy all these expensive supplements cuz all the ones I just mentioned that actually are effective and have what they say, they're not cheap. So, that those bags that you had in that Instagram photo, is that all sprouts that you had made yourself? Yeah. How many mason jars did it take? Six. Six. That was six. Oh, wow. That's not that bad. Yeah. I mean, they get really dense, too. They fill up inside the jar. Yeah. Yeah. I have like other pictures somewhere on there. There were the jars. But I'm thinking I might just do a quick sprouting video just like a like a five or six minute like I'm already going in my head about how I'm going to start sprouting. Awesome. And they're good. Like, you know, you don't have to do I always sort of take it to

55:43the next level. Like I make my shake and it's like um but they're good on salads. I mean, you know, you can sprinkle them on anything, you know. It's I I really I really like them on salads quite a bit. So, that's amazing. Now, uh there you go. Oh, wow. There we go. Yeah, those the Yeah. So, this So, those are mason jars that have holes already in them. Yeah. Yeah. So, you can actually buy the sprouting kit. So, these actually we found these are the old lids we were using. We actually found better lids that have even smaller holes because some of the seeds were getting out of this. But the this came as a kit, a sprouting kit you can buy on Amazon. It has like a little wooden um thing to set the mason jars in. So they're like tilted and you can like you know drip the water out. They came with those lids. Wow. But then we did some experimentation and found other lids

56:32that are superior to those. But those How much maintenance is involved in making these? Like how often do you have to tend to these things? Oh, it's just like after the first initial like six hour water, you know, where you let them sit. It's like twice a day in the morning and evening, dump water on them, but you have to every day. And how many days it take to grow that that was about 5 days, I think. Four or five days. So, for a guy like me who goes away on weekends a lot, I'd have to make sure that I I'm home for a stretch before I make something. Well, you can So, so you could have harvested actually. So, here's the thing. you the longer you're letting them sprout. So, I was just trying to like maximize. I went more dense, you know, because I wanted to get as my bang for my buck. But, you can actually you could have harvest harvested those probably like early like

57:173 days, 3 and 1/2 days. Oh, wow. Um, and actually the longer you wait, the more you have to be careful with contamination, too. So, it's like it's better probably even to harvest them sooner. Freeze them so they're like, you know, no bacteria and that, you know, that way you're just you're safe. And you're just putting them in like ziplo storage bags. Yeah. Do you ever vacuum seal things and freeze them? No, I should. I do that with meat. Yeah, it's a good idea. I mean, that that would that would be a good idea to do. Wow, that's uh that's really intense stuff. The other question that I wanted to have uh to talk to you about was when you were saying schizophrenia and how sulfurophane can prevent or somehow mitigate the fact the effects of schizophrenia. Do you think that there is a a possible correlation between a lot of these mental health diseases and a lack of proper nutrition? Oh,

58:11absolutely. I think that a lack of proper nutrition is a huge component of um a lot of mental diseases and psychological diseases in general. Um in fact inflammation is now it's really been identified as a cause playing a causal role in depression. Um and that's something that you know so with the depression thing uh it's here's here's kind of a funny story and it's not that funny. It's actually kind of eye opening, but back in the So, the CDC has like estimated that about 11% of of um Americans are on some sort of antid-depressant. 11%. Wow. It's a lot. So, here's the story behind that. That's so crazy. It is. And I I know several people that are on them or have taken them or, you know, you know, whatever. But the story behind that is kind of interesting because back in like the early '7s um a lot of these clinical trials were being done on antid-depressants with people that had

59:16depression. And at that time people that had depression um that were involved in these trials uh were people that were severely depressed and hospitalized. So they were so depressed that they had been hospitalized for depression. I don't know many people that have been hospitalized for depression nowadays but so they were hospitalized for depression and then they were given either a placebo or antid-epressant and in multiple trials you know FDA had reviewed these trials 70% of the time the antid-depressant so the antid-depressant worked in 70% of the patients compared to 30% of the patients where placebo worked right 70% is pretty good if you're comparing that to 30% placebo it's like well that's efficacious that seems to work Right. What then happened after those trials were done starting in the 70s and like 80s is that um the clinical diagnostic manual it's called the DSM at that time

60:10it was the DSM2 they changed all their um their diagnosis um you know markers and and uh symptoms for depression and they expanded it a great great deal and they then called depression major depressive disorder. So, it became this sort of like broader, you know, uh, disease, quote unquote, where it was like it's not just these people that are severely hospitalized, it's people that are feeling depressed and anxious and sad or what, you know, it's just basically you're you're getting a bigger group of people, which is probably a great opportunity for for a pharmaceutical company. But then when clinical trials were um repeated on this new population of people. So these these are clinical trials that were done um from like the 80s all the way up until like the 2000 year 2000. When those were re reviewed by the FDA, what was found was quite shocking and that was that only 40% of people were

61:10now responding to like antid-depressants, SSRIs, other you know, norepinephrine, reuptake inhibitors, lots of whatever the standard of care is compared to 30% placebo. So now you're talking about only 10 they're performing only 10 this antidepressants performing only 10% better than placebo. It's like okay something. So clearly it's not that the antid-depressants don't ever work. It's just that we are now overprescribing them to people that you know are have this major depressive disorder and they're not working on people that weren't you know the the initial group of people that were like severely depressed and hospitalized, you know. And so it's like okay that's that's a big problem because they're I mean they are prescribed like I mean I just like I can't even believe it you know I just have so many personal stories people I know you know that have gone

62:04you know going through some crisis some personal breakup a divorce whatever and all of a sudden they're giving you some crazy all of a sudden they're giving you some crazy drug and they change the personality of the person and I'm just like please get off of this like you know it's Not like and like I said it's not like they don't ever work. It's just that you know I think once the um clinical diagnostic you know book changed the whole like you know procedure for diagnosing depression it became major depressive order disorder. All of a sudden, you're getting people that are now like having just, you know, whatever stressful event in their life that's making them a little depressed the time, which everyone's probably experienced, are now being, you know, given this antid-depressant when they don't really need it. And there are effects that are not good with taking some of these, you know,

62:50antid-depressants. So, well, there's a big effect on libido. Yeah. On libido. Yeah. I know a lot of people that have taken it where their sex drive just goes away. Yeah. There's actually a a gene that um a gene polymorphism, a variation, and a gene uh that that is linked to that. So, people that have it have even more severe effect where they really don't they really have like sexual dysfunction in response to a Yeah. It just shuts down. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't happen to everyone quite as much, but there there's a percentage of people that it really really affects. And there's lots of other, you know, things. I mean, it's just it's changing your brain chemistry, right? And it's not exact. It's not an exact science. No, there's a lot of experimentation going on with it. I had a friend of mine who had gone to several doctors and they had prescribed a bunch of different

63:35things to him and he was severely depressed and eventually they gave up and he had to find a much better doctor that his care his whatever his insurance package would not pay for. And once you found that doctor then the doctor was just more knowledgeable about what what you know potential different ones. I mean, I don't know how many different ones there are, but they got him on something that actually worked. He's off it now. It took him a while and then, you know, he eventually got happy. And then, oddly enough, which is an interesting thing, people always want to connect depression. They want to say depression is a disease. And they want to say it almost like, oh, you got herpes. Like, you know what I mean? It's like, well, you've got depression. Oh, well, you need medicine. And for him the one of the big factors in fixing everything was his own success, his own

64:28personal success. And then he became more happy. And then his the medication helped. He became more successful. And then as he became eventually really successful, he started to experience like a better quality of life. He was happier. He was more confident. And then he slowly weaned himself off and now he has no need for them. To me, that is so fascinating because so we're not talking about necessarily a disease like he does not have cancer. It's not like that they cured him of a disease. It's it was a blanket that was keeping him warm. You know, it was something that was was allowing him to bridge the gap between an unhealthy mental state and a healthy mental state. But a lot of that health had to do with his own life. He still eats like I mean, he's not like the healthiest guy. Mhm. He eats a lot of candy, but he's really healthy now as far as like his mind.

65:19He's very happy. He's not lying, you know? He's not faking it. So, to me, it's always I mean, when when you know, I've talked to friends that have had um really good results with anti-depressants. So, I think there are some dark moments in people's lives where that can kind of get them out of that. But then part of me doesn't buy that that's the way to go cuz part of me is like, "Okay, well, did you exercise?" No. Did you take like really healthy foods? No. Did you clean your life up? No. Did you you like how what happened here? And one of the things that a lot of these uh anti-depressants do is they make you not feel bad about stuff like about anything. Like uh I had a friend who was on Zoloft and she said like she took it for a year and she's like I kind of lost a year of my life. Like I didn't give a about anything during that year. Like anything can happen. It's

66:11kind of scary. Yeah. That's but that not giving a not not feeling bad. You also you don't feel great either. You don't feel great like you don't feel like god it's a good time to be alive. Look look at me. I'm healthy. I can move. You like all those thoughts don't sort of come into to play. It's like it dulls everything. It dulls the highs and it dulls the lows and it keeps the pain away. I that's kind of interesting because believe it or not that's actually a symptom of depression. And I think it's called like hyonia or something where someone's not like really responsive to anything. It's like you can't like you just can't like you know you know you can't like excite them or or like make them super anxious either. They're just kind of like you know. So that's actually kind of interesting that she was uh experiencing that while on u an antid-depressant.

66:59Well the the results vary pretty widely. Totally. Yeah. I mean with the same drugs, right? Yeah. Yeah. Now, is that because of biodiversity? Like what what's causing that that like you could take something and you would have a totally different reaction and I could take something and you know it would just be perfect for Yeah. I you know I honestly I don't think we actually know really why that is. But what we do know is that there are I mean there are different you know we are different people and I've got different genes that are regulating how much serotonin I'm making, how much dopamine I'm making, how much I'm metabolizing it, how quickly I'm metabolizing it. than you and other people. And so when you like and pe and this is this absolutely does affect how some of these drugs are, you know, when they're taken, how how their what their biological effect is. Now,

67:46you know, why why I don't know, you know, so it's there's definitely like a genetic um variation that that affects just the way our neurotransmitters are are being fired away and the way they're u um being metabolized. And so if you're if you're adding a drug that's changing the way something's being metabolized already, then it's, you know, it's going to affect people differently. I think I think that's one reason, but honestly, I don't know. Who knows? Just maybe like other, you know, life situations as well, other dietary situations, all these things probably play a role, you know, with the inflammation. I was talking about it actually playing a causal role. I mean, there have actually been studies where normal healthy people are injected with either a placebo, which is saline water, you know, salt water, or they're injected with um something that our gut produces called

68:36endotoxin. Our gut produces it when our immune cells in our gut attack the bacteria in our gut because endotoxin is actually a component of the bacterial cell membrane and that is released upon inflammation. So when you're eating a a terrible diet, lots of refined sugar um and that's and that's actually been shown um you release endotoxin and it causes inflammatory response. So when people are injected with endotoxin or they're injected with pro-inflammatory cytoines like interferon gamma which we also make in our body when we're inflamed, people start to normal healthy people start to experience um feelings of depression. they start to to feel um depressed, anxious, social withdrawal. Um people with the placebo did not experience that. Um also they had elevated levels of other inflammatory biom biomarkers in their blood. Uh so it really like and this is just this is

69:29causal. I mean we're talking about injecting inflammation all of a sudden they're experiencing these like depressive symptoms. It was actually um people that were then given um one of the omega-3 fatty acids EPA they're given actually a pretty high dose of it. I think it was close to like two grams or something uh completely um alleviated any of those symptoms. So, so those people that were getting the inflammatory cytoine or the endotoxin and the EPA did not experience those symptoms. So, it was really like inflammation, you know, driven uh these symptoms that were not experienced in the placebo. Um so, that's kind of and there's been multiple studies showing this, not you know, it's not just one study, there's multiple studies. um multiple studies. Again, this is kind of like a new method people are using to explore how inflammation affects depression. It also has been shown the

70:14same sort of scenario where there's a placebo and they're injecting a inflammatory cytoine. Um dopamine levels lower in the brains of people that were injected with the the pro-inflammatory cytoine but not the saline water. And also the reward pathway in the brain um is also decreased. So, you know, again, like I was mentioning, you're not not that excitable. you don't you know it's just kind of like and that and that was not that did not happen in the placebo group. So this was not just an effect of being shot up with something you know. So um when when uh scientists have looked at some some of the mechanisms and explored well how is it that inflammation is affecting dopamine in the brain? How is it that it's you know affecting people's mood? Um it's thought now there's a variety of mechanisms. One is that you know these inflammatory cytoines they actually cross the bloodb

71:02brain barrier. They get into the brain and they disrupt dopamine release. They disrupt serotonin release. that disrupt norepinephrine release. You know, they're disrupting this these neurotransmitters being released. Um the other way thing is that there's been recently a discovered that the lymphatic system is actually directly connected to the brain through the meninges. I mean it was previously thought that that was like cut off. The brain was protected from the lymphatic system. But it turns out we were wrong. You know everything that we learned in textbooks for years and years in our science classes was not accurate. Actually we are our lymphatic system is connected. And what that means is that our immune system, the chemicals, the inflammatory cytoines we're producing, you know, from our immune cells are getting into the brain and disrupting, you know,

71:46neurotransmitter release, uh, and other things. So, there's obviously a really strong connection to inflammation and depression that's shown to be causal, but when you think about it, it's like, well, what causes inflammation? Okay, well, we can talk about the sugar stuff because that's that's been shown. eating a terrible diet does. But the other thing that causes it and and it's what you you mentioned that is a stressful event in someone's life, an emotional event, you know, a breakup, um a tragedy, workrelated stress, social anxiety, whatever it is, anything that causes you to release cortisol, stress hormones, believe it or not, those things actually uh affect inflammation in your gut. So, it's like a two-way street here. I think that previously you and I have talked about in other podcasts like how gut microbiome bacteria, you know, you can take microbiome bacteria from an anxious

72:40mouse and transplanted into a non- anxious mouse and make it anxious and vice versa, right? So there's like some sort of gut brain axis through something called the veagal nerve. Well, it goes both ways. You can go from the brain down to the gut. So it's been shown that like um cortical releasing hormone which is a stress hormone you know it get you know through the veagal nerve when you release it goes into the gut it activates immune cells which then uh activate other proteins in the gut that chew up they're called proteases they chew up the gut barrier and then you start to release more inflam you know um inflammatory cells which then like get in contact with bacteria more inflammation and then it goes back it's like this feedback loop so I think that's how stress s also part of the mechanism how a stressful event any any sort of breakup or tragedy those sorts

73:30of things also cause inflammation. They cause inflammation. In fact, this is totally off topic but that's one reason why um people should never go and like get like blood work done like like a a day or two after some kind of like traumatic event cuz So if you get fired, don't get your blood work done. Don't Yeah. Like do not do not get your blood work or break up or whatever. Yeah. because it will like it will skew everything. Wow. Everything. Well, that's that's so amazing. And when you discuss this and when you lay all these facts out, it makes it seem so irresponsible that 10% of the people are on this drug, 11%, excuse me, are on this drug or a, you know, whatever a p a category of these drugs instead of dealing with it. I mean, it seems like it's it's we are in a weird place when it comes to the holistic treatment of the human body. We're we're in a very

74:25weird place where we have all of this information now, but it doesn't seem like it's being applied when it comes to the average person who is suffering or the average person who's dealing with a disease or depression, which you I guess you could call a disease. And it just seems so insane that with all we know that we're treating it only with this chemical pathway. We're only treating it with a pill, this pharmacy, you know, this pharmarmacological solution to this which just seems so limiting. It's upsetting. It's so upsetting. It's very upsetting. I am like it's like a mission of mine. You know, I think you know I think that the problem is multiffold. you know, one is that you have, you know, psychiatrists and and they're trained a certain way and people when their patients come in, they expect to that they're going to come they come in because they want a

75:16pill. Most of the time they do. They come in because they don't want to deal with it and they want a pill and so, you know, it's that's kind of a problem because they need, you know, people need to understand that these pills are not the magic bullet. I mean, I just told you only 40% of people are responding to these antid-depressants that are standard of care compared to 30% that respond to placebo, a sugar pill, right? Like, that is ridiculous, you know? So, I think I would love if there was some way, you know, to to get a a physician um usually their psychiatrist that people go to for these sorts of problems to like push someone to say, "You have to go run, you know, you're going to run six miles a week. You're going to run. You're going to do that. that is going to help you like you know it's in fact it's been shown it's been shown in multiple studies that exercise helps

76:05improve depression and one of the ways it does it very interestingly is that um aerobic exercise specifically has been shown that whole serotonin pathway we're talking about inflammation inhibiting release of serotonin well guess what inflammation affects serotonin in another way ser the precursor to serotonin serotonin and tryptophan when you have inflammation so like I an emotional event causes inflammation. Doesn't have to be your sugar diet, okay? Whatever. You know, inflammation can be caused by your your cortisol release. When you have that inflammation, um it your body uh thinks that it needs to fight off something, but that's what it thinks. It's like, okay, this I'm sick. I've got a foreign invader. I need to kill it. And so the tryptophan, which usually is being transported in the brain to make serotonin, which plays a role in how you feel. it plays a role in lots of brain

76:54functions then gets diverted into another pathway because your body's like wait a minute I don't need to feel good I need to I need to survive I need to live so the tryptophan gets converted into this whole other pathway called churanine which helps with um immune basically immune cells needed to different immune cells needed to make different types of immune cells so your body's like okay the tryptophan is going to this other pathway I need more immune cells blah blah blah but the problem is that the canuranine then gets converted into so now what you have is you're depleting your brain of serotonin. Boom. Right there. Right. That's the first thing. So, if you're not sick and if if you have chronic inflammation, you're chronically stressed or you're chronically eating a terrible diet, then you are going to constantly be diverting the serotonin, you know, the tryptophan

77:37into this other pathway. You're going to be depleting your premium serotonin. Right? So, that's one thing. This is a two-fold problem. Then that whole cineuranine thing gets converted into something called quinolytic acid which actually crosses over the bloodb brain barrier becomes a neurotoxin and also has been shown to cause depression. So not only you not getting serotonin you're getting this gnarly in your brain that's not supposed to be there. Um and exercise, it's been shown specifically aerobic exercise causes your muscle to soak up the kinduring um actually another precursor to it so that it can't form quinolytic acid so it doesn't form the the neurotoxin park part. But you know exercise also causes you to make to it makes tryptophan go into your brain. You know it alleviates some of the competition with branching amino acids like leucine and isolucine.

78:24So that's another way it's doing a million things. brain derived neurotrophic factor we talked about at the beginning of the podcast that also plays a role in depression helping prevent depression you know so neurogen neurogenesis all that stuff that helps growing new brain cells making new connections helps helps you deal with stress that's why you make it when you stress your body it seems like there could be some sort of a holo holistic approach like a clinic that looks at all of these factors looks at all these factors and prescribes instead of just prescribing a pill prescribes a very specific diet and exercise routine And maybe even meditation. Maybe even something that practices or or or uh enhances mindfulness or promotes mindfulness. Something that allows you to manage the way you're viewing and taking in scenarios and and scenes and and events in your life and then

79:14processing them in a more healthy manner. It seems like all these things would be as effective or maybe more effective than just a pill. I agree with you and I'm hopeful for the future. I think that the more there's a lot of scientists just that are studying this now. I mean it's becoming very common to to look in the scientific literature and and see you know scientists researching inflammation and the role of inflammation and depression and the role of exercise and helping treat it and the role of other you know dietary um lifestyle factors in causing and treating depression. So, I think that, you know, I I really am hopeful that in in the near future that it it like you said, it's it's going to be a multi-pronged approach where it's not just a magic pill. And I'm not saying that's not also going to be included in some, you know, I'm just say, you know, it's I think I think the diet,

80:05lifestyle, meditation, exercise, if we could just get that into like, you know, the the clinical world and and if people were motivated enough to realize this will really help them, like it really will. People will be so much happier. I really I really think so. So, some people just don't want to exercise. It's weird. They would so much rather go to a doctor and get a pill. It's it's so strange. It's a lot of people well it's this fear of discomfort. People have this extreme feeling in their mind uh when it comes to their associations with exercise. They want to avoid discomfort. They feel like any type of exercise is just like something to be avoided. That's not for me. that. I don't want to sweat. I don't want to strain. And a lot of times this association that they have is about the beginnings of getting in shape. It's not about once you're actually fit because once you're

81:01actually fit, exercise is something you look forward to. It's an alleviation of stress. It's it feels great. Like if I can't get a workout in, I I look at my schedule, I go, "Ah, I don't have any time for a workout." Which means I'm not going to get that good feeling. And so instead of looking at it like, "Oh, I've got to go grunt and sweat." I'm thinking, "I'm not going to feel good. I'm not going to feel relaxed. I'm not going to feel carefree and I'm not going to feel even appreciative like my appreciation of things in it gets enhanced greatly after exercise. I just feel better. I feel like I can take things in for what they are rather than you know whatever the whether sensory data that I'm getting from any event is just uh one more distraction that gets in my way and and you know that that's a lot of times how I look at things if I'm overstressed or if I'm working too much.

81:48Totally beautifully put. Um because that that that's exactly like at least what's been shown from like neuro imaging studies is that exercise does what you're talking about is the executive function. You're talking about feeling good without that sensory stuff which is the amydala. It's the emotional center that's been shown to be decreased in activity after exercise whereas the executive function is increased. So it's it's it's just it's done it's exactly in the right direction. Right. So you're you're able to logically think about this more and you feel good and it's like you're not that that sensory response that like gut anxiety you don't feel it as much that that part of your brain is actually quieter after exercise. meditation does a similar thing. But if there was just a way to get this knowledge to and to pe for people to understand people that are

82:34adverse to exercising, you know, if there was just some way and and I'm really trying to find a way because there are many people that I care about in my life that are that way and that feel depressed and are on some sort of, you know, antid-depressant which doesn't really work for them still. And so I'm trying to find a way like how like I can tell them I'm having this conversation with you and you get it because you experience it. You exercise, you you know, you you eat healthy. You experience these things. But for someone that's never experienced it, how do you communicate it to them? It's so hard for people to start anything new. It's it's it's hard for people to start a pottery class that's not gonna, you know, it's not going to be involved with any physical pain or any stress or any exhaustion. There's no there's not that feeling that you get when you're really

83:25tired. You know, the feeling that you get for me is particularly uh difficult doing boring stuff like an elliptical machine. Like an elliptical machine to me uh it's a great workout. It's awesome if I'm at a gym because if I go to a gym uh like at a hotel and you know they have some weights and but they have an elliptical machine. I go, "Okay, if this thing has a high setting, I can get a real workout in this." But those times when you're tired and you don't want to do it, they're so boring. It's just you have to listen to something, you have to watch something. Like other stimuli has to come in in order to get you pumped up. But I know this cuz I've done it a thousand times. For someone who hasn't done it a thousand times, you they get to that point, they're like, "Fuck this. I'm out of here. Oh my god, let me get a donut, you know, give me a coffee. I'm going to go outside and

84:16smoke a cigarette. Woo, I feel better." You know, and it's so hard to get past that because we have all these connections in our mind when it comes to comfort. comfort and stress, comfort and like our bodies for whatever reason uh most people their associations are to avoid anything that's uncomfortable. But it's so illogical because when you look at comfort and you look at success and progress and then eventual the feelings of accomplishment and of getting past certain hurdles in in terms of like how you feel about life, a lot of those are connected to discomfort. Like discomfort is your friend. It really is. Like discomfort and uh and not being happy and content with certain situations in life or certain feelings in life, they're massive massive motivators and they're they're amazing at at facilitating change. And yet our instinct is to avoid those and just sit

85:17on the couch and watch some reality show about dudes who make moonshine with our jaw open. like it's it's bizarre. It is. It's too much too much of that like stimuli where you don't have to do anything and you can still like get Yeah. get that sensory information. You know, the need to act like to need to actually go out there and act is is so strong. It's such a it's such an important thing, but yet we resist it. Many people I know you don't. I don't, but so many people do. I But I feel the thing, you know, I don't I don't allow it to work, but I feel that this. I don't want to work out. I feel it all the time. Almost every time before I work out, I have at least an inclination to blow it off. I don't ever embrace it, but it's there. It's there with everybody. Like no one is like completely 100% healthy and without any resistance. Yeah. I wonder if also that

86:10has we were talking about this being a super rager. I wonder if there is some uh association there. You know, we're we're looking at we're looking at how it's important to push b past that uncomfortableness, whether it's physical or mental, and that's linked to being a superager, but what if it's just like the ability to make yourself do that is important, too, right? It's not just the act that you're doing. It's not just the strenuous exercise, which it is obviously good. We know that it's good from science, but what if it's just being able to like push yourself? like maybe some people don't have that ability for whatever reason or they just haven't tapped into it enough because they haven't really experienced it. I think that's it. I think it's a learned thing, you know, because if I take time off like um I got sick recently and I couldn't work out for like a week or,

86:57you know, six days or so. And uh the the act of getting back into the gym, I think in a lot of ways we rely on momentum. We rely on the momentum of past experiences where you're just conditioned to do that. It's a one of the things that you do. And for me at least when I get when I get like really disciplined and really um I get really consistent with my workouts. One of the things that I feel I almost feel momentum. I feel like there's like a push behind me like all right we're you know like after I get out of the gym I have a really good workout. I'm like yeah now I'm doing it. I'm doing it all the time now and I'm looking forward to the next time and it makes that resistance much weaker and it makes my motivation and my discipline much stronger. I think a lot of it is based on just the consistency. You know, it's one of the things that I talked about

87:49recently on the podcast. I said, you know, like blowing something off, it's not just not good. Like blowing off uh an exercise uh that you planned is not just bad for you physically. It's also bad mentally because then that option is now available. the option to off is available and you did it before and you're probably going to do it again and you'll get mediocre results not just in that aspect of your life but maybe in all aspects of your life because I think that option to off when you embrace it that is a pathway that you might choose when it comes to dealing with conflict in your personal life, dealing with business decisions, dealing with uh career decisions like an uncomfortable decision that you might be faced with or you maybe you need to make a change as far as like what your pathway way is in life but you don't do it and instead you off and that the inclination to

88:42off I think that gathers momentum as well the inclination to be disciplined that comes with momentum too and I think both things like you did you take a path like the path of the healthy person or the path of the off like both of them are available and whichever path you embrace totally totally I mean I I think that um the same thing goes for like lying too I mean when you I think it's very bad to lie like even if it's something that is really benign like what they call a little tiny white yeah that you know because then you start making these neural connections in your brain and and you start to like get used to doing it like you were saying and and I think that it just kind of dawned on me as you were saying this that um with the motivation and the momentum you were talking about I think that's the same way I think you're like building these neural pathways these

89:34motivation pathways and and that's really important for that momentum to do it again and again. You know, there's been there was some studies um a few of them that have been done where uh you can take a person and do that direct transcranial stimulation which I don't know much about but I remember these studies and like stimulate a certain part of the brain that's involved in motivation and you can motivate them to go to the gym. So you motivate them to actually go work out. So that's in one of those electrodes they put on a specific area of the outside of your head and then they it's like a little 9volt battery is attached to it and it just zaps you a little bit. Zaps it zaps you a little bit and like activates a certain brain region and that that brain region it's activating specifically with this study I was talking about actually there's a couple of them were involved

90:18in motivation and that's probably with you and I we already have those pathways activated because we're constantly forcing oursel to go I mean I feel the same way. There are times I'm like, "God, I don't want to go for a run." Like, it's so hard. But once you do it, god damn, you feel great. You feel great. And you know what? You've accomplished something. So, it's not only like you're feeling great from all the neural mechanisms that are being activated and all the biochemistry that's going on, but you've accomplished something. You did. You pushed past something you didn't want to do, and you feel good about doing that. After magnetic stimulation therapy, Wilmington woman finds motivation and energy. Yeah. There's a a radio lab about this. a Radio Lab podcast. It's called 9VT Nirvana and it they're pretty good. I like Radio Lab. I love it. I love Radio

91:03Lab. And it it actually deals with it's the first story, the opening story is amazing because it deals with this woman who went to this like sniper training simulation video uh video uh thing that they do where they they put you in front they give you like a fake gun and they put you in front of a video screen and a scenario plays out and then the scenario there's like a terrorist attack and you have to take out the bad guys and they did it with her and she was it's 20 minutes long and she was terrible like she it all up. It was just like a disaster. Like she didn't respond correctly. Then they put these electrodes. What would you exactly call them? What are those things? It's electrodes. So they put these on her brain in the or on the outside of her head in very specific areas and stimulated it and then recreated it. And in the recreation, she was 100%

91:54effective. She killed all the bad guys. And she went through this 20inut thing. And when it was over, when they told her that it was over, she thought they were with her cuz she thought it was only two minutes. Like, yeah, like every That is incredible. Oh, it's amazing. The the the way she describes it is amazing. It's amazing. It's a little scary, too. Um, just because I mean, it's like, can you like program someone to do something? There's another study that was that was uh published like two years ago. Same thing, trans cranial direct stimulation. And um I I like I'm so not an expert on any of this, but I just remember this study because there was it was trying to investigate what part of the brain's fault in consciousness, right? And so she so that the the study was designed in such a way where she was reading a book and then they zapped her in a certain part of the brain and she

92:45stopped reading the book this woman and like just looked at them like a zombie like no nothing, no talk, no and then they zapped her again and she started read. She picked up right where she left off. Had no recollection at all of doing that. So this was like, you know, trying to figure out if this part of the brain is involved in consciousness. Anyways, that was a little scary. Well, that's Yeah, that is a real concern, right? Because one of the things about this transranial direct stimulation um uh radio lab podcast was that they talked about how many people are out there just experimenting where there's a whole community online where people are talking about like experimenting with the voltages and experimenting with the placement and one guy did something he lost his sense of taste like but yeah people are just buying these and like doing it like yes well you can go it's

93:38like you go to Radio Lab. The consequences of a world where anyone with $20 and access to Radio Shack can make their own brain zapper. Yeah, that is uh is that from Radio Lab from their Yeah, their podcast page. Wow. It's amazing because there's apparently this gigantic community of it. Like hold on a second. Go back up there and make that larger again. The last couple years uh I TD TDCS trans direct um cranial stimulation has been all over the news. Researchers claim that juicing the brain with just 2 milliamps uh 9volt think 9volt battery battery can help with everything from learning languages to quitting smoking to overcoming depression. And so uh they brought in a neuroscientist Michael Weissend uh at Wright State Research Institute into the studio to tell them how it works. Really interesting. Very interesting. I you know I feel like in terms of like

94:29treating depression or helping people get motivated to go to the gym, it may really have relevance. Yeah. if it help, you know, but it also might be like slapping a supercharger on an old Chevy Nova and you blow the engine on the thing, you know? It's true. It's true. I mean, you don't really you don't we don't really know enough about what's going I certainly wouldn't be experimenting with that. Like, I'm in right now. Let's do it. Are you Yeah, it. I'm I'm thinking about going to Radio Sha Radio Shack right after I get out of here. Not really, but sort of. I mean, it's just interesting. It's a it's it's amazing that we are really some sort of a system and you can juice that system with like a little electricity here, a little vitamin there, you know, a little broccoli sprouts here. It's like that's the weirdest thing about people or one of the weirdest things

95:16about people is how variable we are depending upon what we put inside of us. And we don't think of it that way most of the time. We think of ourselves as ourselves. You know, I'm sure you think of yourself as Ronda Patrick, but Ronda Patrick relies on a bunch of chemicals to be Ronda Patrick, right? I mean, there's a lot of stuff going on in there. It's not just it's not this one. Like, this is a laptop, you know? I'm not adding to this thing. Like, I can put programs in it and stuff, but I mean, this is the everything in there is kind of worked out, you know? There's a processor, there's a motherboard, it's all the all this junk is in place and the electricity plugs into the back and it's not really variable. You know, the the human body so variable and pliable and malleable. There's so many different things that you can do to make yourself better. Like I had this

96:03conversation with a friend of mine who's uh not a physical fitness guy and he's kind of a neist and nihilist, I guess you would say. I never say that word. I just read it. I think it's nihilist. Niist. And he's, you know, he's a little bit of a kerogen and he's like, "Ah, what's the point?" You know, like really what what is the point? You're always doing all this martial arts and exercise. I go, "Okay, if I could give you a pill and that pill would turn you essentially into a super person, like you can do that you can't do now. You could lift weights you can't lift. You could beat people up. You could do physical fitness fits uh feats that you know what you right now are totally insurmountable and outside the realm of possibility. Would you take that pill?" So, so simple. And he goes, "No, I wouldn't." I go, "You wouldn't?" Okay. um if I could give you a pill that would

96:53prevent you from being a decaying old man and you could stay in the state you are right now, would you take that? He's like, "Yeah, I probably would take that." I go, "Well, that's how it feels like to me, motherfucker." Like, that's how it feels like to me. Like, you're a decaying old man. You're like, he's not much I think he's a year older than me, but he looks like he's 50 years older than me. I mean, his body's all humped. He's like he's got a little punch. He doesn't have any muscle tone. And I'm like, dude, all of that is just physical fitness. Like, you're not broken. Like, there's nothing wrong with you. But if you got on like a steady yoga routine and started doing some resistance training and started maybe swimming or something like that, a year from now, you would have a completely different body, you know? And so, talking to me, I'm like, I've done it my whole life.

97:38So, like stuff that I I can do stuff that you don't think is possible. And to me, it's like two times a week, three times a week, I do that stuff. Like this is not like your body is like a race car that you can juice up yourself. Like you can add the fat tires. You can add the improved suspension. You can beef up the horsepower in the engine. You could do all that yourself. Or you could just choose to have this shitty body that's always falling apart on you, right? I mean, what you're you and I are both choosing to do is, you know, we're both kind of obsessed with nutrition and aging and being, you know, as as optimal as we can in terms of our health, but ultimately what we are doing is delaying the aging process by switching on all these switches and like, you know, exercise and getting all the micronutrients and avoiding the refined sugar which is causing inflammation and

98:29and all that stuff. And it's really because that stuff is part of the aging process and it accelerates the aging process, you know, where I don't think people that don't do this stuff realize that it's like it's not just about looking good. It's about aging. It's about like being older and being fit and being mentally sharp and not being, you know, degenerate and decrepit. And how I mean, how awful would that be to be like 60, which is young? I mean 60 is still young and to be like you know Yeah. broken which is really common. It's super common especially for sedentary people. Exactly. For sedentary people. Most sedentary people are people that also choose to eat terrible diets. So it's like not only are they sedentary, they're also eating crappy food and not getting all the nutrients they need. So it's just like this mega explosion dynamite of just bad. Yeah. Increasing

99:23inflammation. And I think intelligent people like my friend, he is intelligent and I think he connects vanity with those things and he thinks vanity is for fools and he thinks it's uh it's a it's a trait that he finds reprehensible. He just doesn't like it. You know he sees people that are you know you know whatever. Maybe it's flashy clothes. Maybe it's uh you know the way they wear their hair. Whatever it is that he thinks is preposterous. He connects that with physical fitness. M I'm like, man, but it's your vehicle. It's like how you get through this life and it's it's how you think. It's it's it's so many different things that are all connected into one super organism, which is the life that you're you're living. It's it's you know, we I think everybody knows now. I mean, it's not something we grew up knowing, but everybody knows now about your gut biome. This is a really

100:16huge factor in how you exist as an organism or as maybe even an organism is the wrong word because we're essentially ecosystems, you know, and we're we're in charge. This weird consciousness that has all this resistance and has all this inclination towards comfort and off and blowing things off is what is in charge of making all these things happen that keep this ecosystem healthy. It's almost like if Earth itself had like a shitty manager, you know, if like there was a manager of a natural manager of Earth that was like, "Oh god, who cares if it rains? Oh god, you know, like let's, you know, I'm I'm going to stop growing things. I don't give a anymore. It's all stupid anyway." I mean, it's literally like the the just blow it up. Yeah. Yeah. it. Let's just kill all the life. Well, it's all going to die eventually. I mean, the the sun only lasts 7 billion years. You see,

101:13that is the perspective a lot of people take with aging, where it's like, well, you're going to die. You're going to age. You can't stop aging. And it's like, yes, you're right, but that's not the point. The point is to age better. Like, that's the point. The point is to increase your health span, you know, and that is we know is possible. like that can there's some there's some of these like centinarians and super centinarians I've seen that are like in you know over 100 years old and they're like riding bikes and racing and it's like they're old they are very old but they're experiencing a very good quality of life. Yeah. And they're experiencing a quality of life that these other people that don't exercise feel they physically feel their own body diminishing and they just feel it's inevitable. It's just it is what it is. You're wasting your time.

101:58You're out there running around. But no, we're not. Because this experience right now, it's not like no one's under the illusion you're going to live forever. But you are enhancing the experience that you're currently involved in right now. And you are alive. You are alive. You do experience this life. But do you experience this life optimally? Is it is it as enjoyable as it can be? And we all know that there's a spectrum for that enjoyability. Like we've all had times in our life where it's not been so great and then times in our life where everything came together like what a great day. Woo. Like make more of those. Like you can make more of those and then the whole thing's better. And I think when that whole thing is better, it affects everybody you touch, everybody it's around you, everybody you come in contact with and that in turn I mean it sounds so grandiose but in in

102:46turn can affect the entire race of human beings. I agree. Totally. Totally agree. And I love the way you put it about like the feeling good. It's not just about, you know, staving off cancer. You know, it's not just about what's going to happen 20, 30 years from now. It's about now. It's about not being depressed. We know that, you know, it's about feeling better. It's about being smarter. It's about having more executive function, having more long-term planning, less emotional amydala, you know, anxiety. That is like right here, right now. That is happening. that is so you know it's not just long-term effects which you also are you know also affecting which is very good so it's like a win-win you're not just affecting the future you're affecting right now how you feel how you perform you know it's yeah it's um an important concept that I continue to try to get you know across to people

103:36and it also will optimize everything else you do whether it's creative pursuits whether it's relationships that you get into a lot of those things are predicated on how you feel as you enter them, how you feel when you participate in them. And you can enhance that. You can enhance that. And I mean, there's a weird thing that people do where they want to pretend they're not trying to do better. You know, I'm fine. Everything's great. Like, it's not that's not true. You're you're you're putting out effort. It's a matter of you you have a mindset or you have a connection in your brain with putting out more effort and connecting that to discomfort. and that connecting things to discomfort. Have you ever um uh Steven Presfield has a book called The War of Art? I've brought up in this podcast a million times. I actually have a copy of it. I'll give it to you afterwards cuz I

104:26I bought like 50 copies of it and I handed I hand it out to people. It's great. And he's been uh on this podcast before. And his uh book is essentially mostly about the creative pursuit. And it's about resistance that people feel when uh you know you should write or you know you should paint or whatever you should sculpt whatever these things are that you you pursue and that there's this thing that comes up that tries to keep you from doing that this resistance and he's like this is a battle that you will fight for the rest of your life but the key is to fight it not to give in don't give into that resistance to fight just to fight that resistance and in doing so every day you do so you have won the battle for that day and you will continue to fight that battle battle and if you continue to fight that battle with that same mindset, you will win. And this is a guy that like up until the

105:12time he was 40 years old, he was basically a loser. He wasn't doing well. He was like a failed writer and then he kind of just figured it out and got his together and then wrote books about it. And now he's like a really accomplished author and it's it's an amazing story and he's a really cool guy too. who I had him on for a podcast and you know in his enthusiasm and the way he uh approaches it in this book is like it's very pragmatic like you can see the steps and he lay he lays it all out in a way that's very easy to digest. Awesome. Yeah, I'd love to read it. I mean, I I I think that's something that's a very important part of um of of the human experience is pushing past that resistance to Yeah. to whatever. And and you're right, it once you do it, you get better at it next time, too. I mean, it's still there, but you you do get better at it next time. There's also a

106:04problem, I think, that um what it comes up when you and I are doing these podcasts where there's so much data. There is so much to take in. I mean, we have done how many podcasts now? like six or seven. This is the sixth one. Yeah. Lot and every one of them is three hours of like what in the How does she know all this? And just notebooks. Like when I put it up on Twitter, you know the that you're going to be here. Everybody's like get your notebook out. Get I mean that's like the number one response in the comments. That's awesome. Yeah. There's a lot of stuff that I I I enjoy learning, you know, and so some of that I like to learn about um things that can make me better, things that can make other people better mentally, physically, help aging and all that. So, I like to share that with with people. Have you heard of this? Um we were talking about an aging pill and it

106:56kind of came into my mind when you're talking about giving your friend that if you could take a pill that could, you know, delay the way you age or make you live, you know, longer or better. Um, have you heard of like nicotenomide ribocide or nicotenomide monucleotide? Not at all. Not at all. No. Oh, wow. It's like it's kind of like I guess it's maybe it's not made its way into the popular media as much as I thought, but it's definitely blown up in the science. So, um, there's it's so nicotenomide ribocide and nicotenomide monucleotide, they're they're like precursor forms to vitamin B3. Um and in the body they get converted into something called NAD. And NAD is something um that you absolutely have your mitochondria which make energy have to have to make energy. Like you can't oxidize fat, fatty acids, you can't oxidize glucose, you can't make energy from any of the foods you eat

107:48without NAD because your mitochondria need it to make the energy. So it's very important for your mitochondria to function to make energy. But also um it's very important it's like the levels of NAD always rise like when you're fasting in between meals. So like you know between breakfast and lunch or breakfast and dinner or whatever your NAD levels go up like slowly after a meal and during the fasting state um and also when you exercise so the levels of NAD will will will go up somewhat. But um this so these are precursors to NAD, right? I'm I'm telling you this because this is kind of the the the studies that have been done. All the mechanisms go back to this forming NAD. NAD is something that decreases with age. Um it's something that you know it's just it's very important for aging. Anytime you're inflamed, all the NAD gets sucked up sucked up into that inflammation cuz

108:38your energy to, you know, energy, it requires energy to like have your immune cells be activated and fighting off whatever they think they're fighting off, whether or not it's refined sugar or actual an infection, but um DNA damage sucks it up. So, it's like, you know, it's it's basically a limiting factor in a lot of ways. So there's been all these studies over the past I don't know I'd say like six years probably now five or six years where various scientists are have been um feeding mice you know this nicotenomide ribocide or nicotenomide monucleotide and they're finding that you know for example if you feed them nicotenomide monucleotide um it delays aging in their liver in their bones in their um eyes their muscle Um they're so it's basically like their tissues are aging better. They they have enhanced endurance. They have better mitochondrial function. And these are

109:35doses like human equivalent dose to like 24 milligrams per kilogram body weight per day which could be a lot if you weigh a lot. But um showing that it improves mitochondrial function and nicotenomide ribocide which gets converted into nicotenomide monucleide. It's kind of confusing on it just anyways lots of studies on that showing that it like if you give it to mice that have some sort of mitochondrial defect and their muscles all atrophying it completely reverses that their muscles are like they're making lots of mitochondria and they're improves muscle function and enhances performance. Anyways, like you get the idea. Like lots and lots of animal studies. Recently, there's been a human clinical trial done uh with nicotinomide ribocide and that just to show that it's safe and that it actually does increase NAD levels in in human blood, which it does um even even as low as a a 100

110:25milligrams dose a day. And is this a supplement that people can buy? So the so nicotenomide monucleotide is not um that's found in like broccoli. Broccoli is really high in it. Uh cucumbers are really high in it. Cabbage is high in it. Edmomame. But nicotenomide ribocide which gets converted into that which eventually makes its way to NAD is it is a supplement. So a few scientists actually um some bigname scientists in the aging field like Lenny Guarantee and a couple of others have started a supplement company called uh Alisium. Can you give me that pad? I I forgot to put a pad over here. I got to write that down. Thank you. Yeah. And so it's called Alisium and it has nicotenomide or Elisium like the Matt Damon movie. Yeah. E L Y S IU M. Oh, look at this. They have it. So it has nicotenomide. And by the way, I know it's affiliation. I don't have any affiliation with any

111:20supplement company. Is this a a supplement company? What is the the company, Jamie? I think it's a comp they call the company's called Alisium or is it the supplement? The supplement's called Alissium. But and how do you spell the actual nicotamide? How do you say it? Nicotinomide. N I C. Um, Nick O T I N A M I D E. Ribocide. R I B O S I D E. Yeah. So the It's interesting. It's also there's another company I think Thor makes makes one um with it in it. But Thorn. Yeah. Thorn. The thing that's interesting about the Alisium though that I found because I started looking into this like I've met Lenny Guarantee. He's the guy who um who whose lab uh the whole pathway that rveratrol acts on was discovered that you know act. So NAD switches on this whole like genetic pathway that's like anti-aging and it does changes all these epigenetic factors. Okay, without

112:18getting into all the details and like boring people to death. It's like it act it's basically NAD levels rise. It acts as a switch. This rises NAD levels. So this is a supplement that's rising NAD levels. But what's interesting about the alysum is that it has something in it called terostelbean. Terost stillban is found in blueberries. Um blueberries is probably the one of the best sources of it. But what what so interesting I was trying to figure out like why are they putting I was trying to figure out why they're putting terosteline with the nicotenomide ribocide because nicotenomide ribocide is affecting NAD. It's affecting mitochondrial biogenesis. So it's it's been shown to increase mitochondrial biogenesis. Like I said, these mice and mice, you know, were um were performing like 42% better at different endurance activities after being supplemented with this. So, that's

113:07insane. Yeah, it's but they're giving a lot like the like at 32 24 to 32 milligrams per kilogram body weight would be the human equivalent dose. So, you know, figure that out. That's a lot. That's probably like 4 grams a day or something like that, right? For like a 160 or 80 lb person, something like that. I don't know. Anyways, the teros stillbin is interesting because well in and of itself it's interesting because it's actually it's chemically similar to rveratrol and um but it's four times more bioavailable than rveratrol and it actually has been compared side by side uh in mouse studies to like to uh different mouse studies that have looked at cognitive function and it's better at improving cognitive function in uh animals than rperatrol is largely because it's four times more bioavailable. Uh so anyways I was like well I don't know if that's why they're

113:57doing it because that's not affecting the same pathway but then I came across something really interesting and that is um terost stillbine actually has been shown again this is an animal study to increase a type of bacteria in the gut that um causes the um conversion of certain compounds elagitanins which are found in berries and in some nuts but really high in pomegranate. Lagitanins get converted into something called terostil I mean called um uroliththn a by your gut bacteria which is what terostelbine is increasing that gut bacteria. So terostelbean is actually increasing the production of uroliththn a from berries that are having this other compound uroliththn a what that does is this has been shown also in other studies it um causes mop mopagy or mtopagy which is the clearing away of damaged mitochondria. Uh so you're basically clearing away damaged

114:55mitochondria like they eat themselves. So Fiji would be eating itself kind of like autoagi or autophagy as it's called which is a cell sort of a damaged cell that gets cleared away. Um it eats itself that happens a lot during a fasting state. Well this mopagi is doing it specifically for mitochondria. And this the reason why this is so cool and I'm going to try to like not bore you. I can go on and I said just keep going. Don't worry about that. Um, the reason this is so cool is because so you know mitochondria are very important for the way we age. It's not just muscle function, brain function. They're providing energy for everything like period. Like your mitochondria decay, you decay. That's the way it is. Like period. So their mitochondria as you're aging, they're decaying. They're getting damaged and all this stuff. Well, they have this whole repair system where you

115:41where you have um lots of mitochondria inside one cell. Let's say you have one damaged mitochondria and one healthy. What they do is they fuse together, exchange all their content and fizz back apart. So they kind of like repair each other. So you have a healthy one, a damaged one. The healthy one kind of, you know, mixes with the unhealthy one and then you have two um healthyish ones, right? So this is happening constantly inside every cell. If you if you look at a mitochondria, it's never like you never see mitochondria by themselves. They're always like like a network like they look like vermicelli spaghetti because they're constantly doing this. Well, if you clear away the damaged ones and you increase mitochondrial biogenesis with a nicotenomide ribocide. So, not only are you getting rid of the damaged pool, you're now creating new ones that are like brand new healthy young brimming

116:28young mitochondria like you had when you were a young person, young child. So now your your your pool that you're mixing with it's like not mitochondrial by biogenesis is good in and of itself because you're making new mitochondria but having damaged ones still around can still dilute the pool out. You know it can still dilute it. So if you get clear out those damaged ones and you're making new ones it's kind of like boom you're going to get like young new mitochondria. So I think that possibly is another reason why they combine those. I mean it's completely speculation. And I'm just But anyways, you learned some cool about terostine and herolithin a yeah mofagi is a a very interesting thing. Um you know exercise to some degree can increase it. Fasting does and um why does fasting increase it? Um when you're fasting you you try to so NAD levels rise. Um you try to to conserve some of

117:20your energy and the way you do that is by eating different organels eating eating the cell itself which can then provide energy for other cells. So you so usually what happens is fasting will selectively um get rid of some of those damaged cells or damaged mitochondria. So that that happens during during a fasting. Does that make sense? When you Yeah, it does. It's interesting though that the body manages it so well that it it goes after the damaged ones before it goes after the healthy ones. It's well there's lots of like molecular mechanisms that have been you know figured out why that is. And that's because the damage one their their mitochondrial membrane potential is like different and it's just it's all this complicated stuff but it's like it all works out perfectly where it's like these these these enzymes that like targeted to to um you know to basically

118:04become um to undergo mitoagy. It's like they recognize a certain one with a lower membrane potential which happens to be more of a damaged mitochondria. And it's just kind of like it's kind of beautiful how it just all works out that way you know. Um, god, what was I going to say? I completely like was gonna say something else. I lost my my train of thought there. But, um, yeah. So, anyways, the the fact that you can like have new mitochondria is like pretty I mean that's kind of like the big thing with with aging and it's been that for a long time is like young new mitochondria. I know you're probably aware of this study, but they injected old mice with the blood of young mice and they found that the old mice started behaving more lively and then they did the reverse. They injected the young mice with the blood of old mice and the the mice struggled and and deteriorated and now

118:56there's some crazy new startup where for what was like eight grand they fill you up with the blood of young people. Yeah. Okay. I'm glad you mentioned this because I've been reading about it recently. Actually, I know Peter Teal, the PayPal. Yes. He does that. He's he he's publicly talked about. He's the guy that he's he's on Trump's board now, isn't he? Like I think so. Yeah. He's like one of the first people that Trump hired, which is fascinating. That is so fascinating. Yeah. Um yeah, he does he's talked about how he's like he gets blood injections. Okay, so here's what has he said about it? Um, I don't remember exactly what. Just that I don't think he said anything about whether it's doing anything, but I think he's just mentioned showing up younger looking like he's got a Snapchat filter on. Well, here's the thing that was really interesting about this whole thing, cuz

119:40I've been following this field for a while, too, cuz I find it very interesting for multiple reasons. One, it's like it could be applicable, right? I mean, easily. But there he is. Look at him. Looks young as He's 9 years old. He wants to inject himself with young people's blood or is doing it. Trump delegate and Gawker bankrupter. Oh yeah, he's the guy who he he financed Hulk Hogan's attack on Gawker because Gawker outed him as being did they out him as gay or they attacked him and they they got really shitty with him and you know he's a billionaire so he went off and um thank you for turning off your ad blocker. Enjoy the Forbes Adite experience. off. Yeah, Nick Denton files for personal bankruptcy. Yeah, he uh he went after that guy because of it. Yeah. Um so anyway, go back to the other article. Why changed articles there? Um so what he's doing uh given Theo's

120:40obsession with warding off death, it comes as no surprise the Silicon Valley billionaire is interested in at least one radical way of doing it. Injecting himself with a young person's blood. Wow. Inc. magazine published part of a year old interview with the in which the venture capitalist explains that he's interested in parabiosis. That's what it's called. Which includes the practice of getting transfusions of blood from a younger person as a means of improving health and potentially reversing aging. Said, I'm looking into this stuff. I think it's really interesting. It's unclear whether the 48-year-old entrepreneur is currently receiving guaranteed he is um reports that a Theo Capital employee actually the personal health director. He has a personal health director personal health director to Peter Theo. That's hilarious. That's what you do when you're a baller. I'm

121:31going to get a personal health director. This same the same company, Ambrosia LLC. This is the one that we were talking about the other day. Yeah. Interesting. So, this is actually happening. says Theo spends $40,000 per quarter per quarter to get an infusion of blood from an 18-year-old based on research conducted at Stanford on extending the lives of mice. So, he's got one 18-year-old that he's vampiring. One kid, he's giving him beats and broccoli sprouts and making him run up hills. That's cra Well, you would have to hope that kid's not doing meth, you know, like he's got this 18-year-old probably measuring all these biomarkers in his blood. I would imagine. Yeah, because you would have to make sure. I mean, that's so weird. We're going to farm off young people and wow, that is so crazy. He's given $6 million to biomemed gent gerontologist. Gerontologist. Oh,

122:27Aubrey Deg Grrey. That crazy I had him on. I had him on my podcast, too. Yeah, he's interesting. But he drinks. He's He's He boozes like every night. He was like 3:00 in strong at 11:00 in the morning when I walked into his office. Yeah, that's what I was saying when I was hanging out with him. He's like, well, he he he's basing all of he's putting all of his eggs in the basket of science. He thinks that science and things like what Peter Theal is doing is going to be able to mitigate all this stuff that he's doing. Yeah. But I'm like, dude, you're beautiful. But what if you're stuck in that like position where it's like, okay, they can delay the aging, but like you're stuck like now. Okay, we can't make you like 18, but we can stop you from dying. But, you know, so it's like that's possible. So, he's going to be stuck like not Yeah. Well, he also doesn't exercise. I

123:14found him to be perplexing. I I really enjoyed talking to him and but I found him to be quite perplexing because of the booze and because of the lack of exercise and his big crazy Gandalf beard. I'm like, what's going on with you, dude? There's a lot going on here. I'm like, this is there's a lot of there's a lot of image here. You know, him and I disagreed on a lot of nutrition. Oh, well, hold on a second. Let me talk about that. But and some say that the pay to participate study with the potential to collect up to 4.8 million from as many as 600 participant. It mounts to a scam. What's certain is it's based on some intriguing if inconclusive science. Uh, Carmesian, a 32-year-old Princeton graduate and competitive rower, said he was inspired by studies on mice that research had sewn together with their veins conjoined in a procedure called parabiosis. Okay, that's what we were

124:02talking about, that study about mice. So, what did you guys disagree with? Um, well, just the role that nutrition plays in aging. He didn't think it was a big role. No, he didn't think it was a big role because he's boozing. So, yeah, boozing. He's not working out. I mean, how can you ignore all the science on the the the positive benefits of exercise and nutrition? Well, there's lots of studies showing that that diet and lifestyle, you know, have a huge impact on on aging. Yeah. You know, for I mean, just one more thing about this parabiosis, though, because it's kind of people were thinking that it was the young there was something in the young blood that was um present, the GDNF1 that I just said on the screen that was actually GDF1. What is that? Right. It's a growth factor 11. Yeah. So it was thought that this was what was responsible for rejuvenating tissues and

124:48growing new brain cells because that's what happened when you gave it to the um older mice. But then other studies started to come out also out of Stanford um showing that in fact it may not be something that's in the young blood but something that's in the old blood that's actually causing the aging. Something called uh VCAM 1 that starts to you start to make it as you're getting older and it like causes inflammation in the brain and like starts messing up things. So there was a recent study that would just came out and showed that if you like make an antibbody against that VCAM one and prevent it from like doing its action, it's like you can stop that from happening. So anyways, there's a lot to be figured out there. Is there an antibbody that they're currently working on? They're trying to make some kind of some some something that you can take goddamn solution to aging. That's going

125:35to be weird. It's gonna be weird if you see like old people become young. It's not going to be weird if people don't get any older. I mean, it would be kind of weird, but it like if I came if I ran into you like 20 years from now, like, damn Rhonda, you look exactly the same. It would be cool, but it wouldn't freak me out. What would freak me out if Arnold Schwarzenegger started looking like he was when he was 20 again? Like, that would freak me out. Like, if we start seeing the change in the process, we start seeing things reverse, right? not just halt or slow down, which we kind of have seen with like really healthy people. You know, like some people, you know, some people kind of defy aging, at least to a certain extent, like Tom Cruz is a perfect example. I want to know what they're filling that dude up with. You know who else I think who I was thinking that defied aging

126:21like famous-wise? Ker Reeves. I feel like that guy's looked the same for like a long time. Yeah. And he's in his 50s now. Yeah, he looks great. Yeah, he looks great. I mean, I think he smokes, too. What? Yeah. No. Yes. Yeah. See, that's that's to show you he's got some kind of like genetic. There are There definitely are. Tom Cruz, 1983, 2014. They're injecting him with some kind of young fluid. You know what I'm saying? I mean, look, he's got ungodly sums of money, and that's part of uh part of the issue, you know? I mean, they've uh they Yeah, you can definitely do things with money that I would imagine make you look younger. Trying to figure out what surgery wise and stuff. I don't think he's doing surgery though. Oh, no. No. Well, you know, one of the things that um they think is uh what is that picture up above? What's that one with the shirt off one up there? Is that

127:18him working out up there? See, that shows aging. The one on the right like he's got substantially less tone to his muscles, but that could just be he's been busy. It says the Maverick days are over. Hold on. Go back. What does that say? Is it from uh 1986 to right on the set yesterday? So yeah, that's also that there's not that much of a variability there. It that could easily be just hasn't been working out as hard. I mean, when you're on a movie set, you're working 15, 16 hours a day sometimes, especially these gigantic big budget budget blockbusters where you're, you know, involved in these crazy stunts and all that stuff. Yeah. So, interesting. Yeah. Um, but, you know, back to this like diet aging thing that like Aubrey and I disagreed on. I mean, it's it's so it's so weird that someone that's he's familiar with the aging literature would would disagree, you know, with with some

128:13of the science out there. Like there's been studies looking at, for example, people that have like one 12 oz can of like sugar water or sugar soda, some kind of like sugary drink a day. They have, if you look at them, um, they're tieumirs and their white blood cells. So tieumirs are a biioarker for aging. When you look at their tie length, their tieumirs are shorter compared to people that don't have that soda every day. And that corresponds to like 4.6 years of biological aging. Wow. I mean, that's like someone that's the same exact age as you, but has a tie that looks, you know, either 5 years older or, you know, 5 years old. That's insane. Yeah, it's totally insane. All All based off of like this refined sugar soda. I wonder if it's like a personal thing with him because he knows that he's not addressing that in his own life. Maybe that's why he's decided to put up these

129:03blinders and ignore the science. Well, I think also he's interested in extending lifespan to like a massive point. Sugary soft drinks may be linked to accelerated DNA aging study. So he's I mean like I said he's putting all of his eggs in the basket of science. Yeah. It's kind of I mean who knows? I mean there's it's it's kind of interesting that he is doing that though because he will concentrate like very heavily on that. And again when you were talking about all this nutrition and exercise the benefits of it like God there's so much to study. There's so much that maybe his maybe his desire to assue that and go straight to the science of it only and talk about genetic manipulation and all these other different variables like maybe maybe there's something to that. Maybe you really can't spend enough time in both fields. Totally. Yeah, I think that makes sense. And I and I do think that

129:58there's hope for, you know, things like genetic engineering and stem cell therapies that will help tune humans up eventually and and that will make a big difference. And have I talked to you about my stem cell experiments? No. No. Okay. I have been getting stem cell shots. Uh I got them for an injured shoulder. I had a shoulder that um I had a rotator cuff tear, bicep tendon tear, and labreum tear in my shoulder. And it was most likely had been dislocated before. and I didn't know. Um, which is just the side effects of years of doing difficult stuff with your body, especially jiu-jitsu, cuz jiu-jitsu is all about joint manipulations and joint locks and chokes and grappling. And there's a lot of just a lot of damage that your body goes through. Everybody that I know that does jiu-jitsu at a certain point in time either has to get some for form of surgery or has some

130:48pretty significant injuries that they have to work around. So, uh, I, um, went to a doctor that was like, "Well, you probably have to get surgery. Like, this is going to if it if not now, some sometime really soon." Because every time I would work out, it would get really sore and I'd have to ice it afterwards. I get these shots and they're doing them from they they're extracting the stem cells from women's placenta and they take the stem cells and then they shoot them into the area where you have the injury and the results are freakish. You heal like Wolverine. I mean, it's really bizarre. And now this same shoulder that I had, you know, like a real problem with where I was worried about needing surgery. I do 90 lb presses with kettle bells with one shoulder. And it's not I have no pain. No pain, no discomfort. It's not bothering me at all. And it's

131:42it's unbelievable how much strength and function that the shoulder has. Now, that's really cool. I I didn't realize they were doing that with placental stem cells. placental stem cells are like kind of like a gold mine because they um they possess a type of stem cell called multi-otent stem cell which is able to form multiple different types of you know cartilage cells that you know that form cartilage cells that form bone even cells that form neurons you so they're able to form lots of different types of cells um and usually placenta are just like thrown away I mean so it's kind of cool that there I guess there's companies that are freezing them down and um finding you know donors that match. Yeah. Let me tell you the name of the company so people who are listening. It's in the my doctor's name is Dr. Rody McGee and he's in Las Vegas and the company is

132:32um Oh, I have it listed here. That's good. I've got it on my Instagram. I've got my pen ready here, Joe. You can't let me down. No, I won't let you down. Just give me a second. I'll scroll through my Instagram and I'll find him because it wasn't that long ago that I was there. But, um I uh I posted something about it on Instagram. But I am I'm a I'm a giant believer in it. And I've had some friends, my friend John Dudley who's an archer, was experiencing uh tendinitis in one of his elbows for a long time. I mean, he had it and it was, you know, uh something that he had been working through for uh quite a few years and he had one stem cell shot and within two weeks the pain was completely gone. It was just Yeah, it's it's freaky what they're able to do. I'm finding it. I'm all about it. I'm stem cell therapies. I mean, that's something that I'm extremely excited about for the future.

133:21But have you ever tried hydrayzeed collagen powder or like bone broth? Yes, I drink bone broth every morning. Okay. Awesome. Yeah. So, um that that's another thing like cuz I I've been getting into the bone broth, but I was doing hydra I add hydrayzeed collagen powder to like my coffee in the morning and also my smoothies. And what does that do? Well, it's just it's just like uh it's got a lot of the same things as bone broth. Bone broth is probably actually even better because it has more stuff. But it's been shown like in animal studies if you take the hydrayzeed collagen powder and like radial label it so you can follow where it goes in an animal, it goes right to like the cartilage and the joints and ligaments. Um, I used it. It like has helped me healed like injured wrist, you know? Obviously like my injuries are like way way like less magnitude than

134:06something that you're experiencing in your shoulder. Here it is. Uh, Total Sports Medicine in Vegas. That's the name of the company that's that uh does the stem cell injections or that? What about the company that you Applied Biologics? It's called a flow graft amniotic fluid therapy. That's what they're calling it. Uh but it's Total Sports Medicine in Las Vegas. That's where I got the stem cell. Applied Biologics is the company that freezes the placenta. Yes. Applied biologics flow graft amniotic fluid therapy. And um my friend uh Rody McGee, Dr. Rotty McGee is uh at Total Sports Medicine in Vegas. He's awesome. He's and he's such a knowledgeable guy, too. If you ever wanted to talk to him, I can get you in contact with him and he can explain all the details. He talks like you. You two could geek out together and confuse the out of anybody standing

134:55next to you. Well, you know, pretty soon they're actually there. You can make stem cells from skin cells now. Yeah, I've heard that. I know they did that with a woman. They created a new bladder for her. She had bladder cancer and they created a completely new bladder from her skin cells in a you know laboratory environment and then replaced her her damaged bladder. That's amazing. I had only heard about the clinical study that they did with um eye cells where like the woman some woman was had some sort of blindness and they were able to use skin cells from her own skin you know coax them into becoming retinal cells. But bladder is really cool too. I mean, so there's these lots and lots of animal studies, but every once in a while there's like a new clinical study where they're just kind of piloting, you know, doing this and seeing the safety in in humans and and that is where I'm

135:41like, I can't wait. Like, yeah, it's crazy. Stem cell injections for my brain, you know, I'm shooting it right in my ear right in there. I'll take it. It's going to be very bizarre when we get past a healthy human state. That's what I'm really not just concerned not concerned about rather but curious about like it's curious is not even a strong enough word but I feel like within our lifetimes maybe it's 50 years or whatever it's going to be they're going to be able to engineer a human body to perform you I'm sure you know you're aware of myostatin inhibitors and the benefits and they they've shown that the accidental ones that they've done with like whippetss and cows but now they've started to do it on purpose for mice and they're the mice are living longer. They're super mice. They're They are like way more muscular. I think they're like two to three times more muscular

136:33than the average mouse. They look freakish when they kill them. When they kill them and they skin them and they show the body of the mouse compared to with the muscle structure in comparison to the body of a natural mouse. It's like, what in the are you doing here? Like this is this is like the Hulk. It's like you're making a a tiny thing, you know, and you're you're putting all this extra muscle on it and for whatever reason it's living longer. Yeah, that is that's the interesting part that it's living longer. You're trying to figure that out like what you know because usually there's some sort of trade-off where you're like well it's see if we could find that Jamie the thing the myostatin inhibitor studies they did on mice because their physical performance was extraordinary like they could do things that the other mice just could not do. But on top of that they

137:16actually live longer. They did live longer. Yeah. See that's that's very interesting. Yeah. I know they were doing it with like pigs too or something. I think I'd seen some pigs where they had done some sort I think they were doing gene engineering on them with the myostatin inhibitor. But um yeah, it's all it's all very interesting. Yeah, they've done it with animals that you use for I mean they're they're thinking that you could do it with animals that we use for food and they would just they would provide more meat that way, right? Which is kind of interesting. But what's the matter? What exactly would I found some a couple different studies somewhere older than like 10 years so I don't know. Oh, okay. increases muscle mass and muscle fiber in aged mice but does not increase bone density or bone strength. Huh. That could be a problem. Snap. This That's an old study though, huh?

138:02This one's from 201. This is 2009. This is 2013 is the one I clicked on. Interesting. Uh maybe 2013 is probably where I uh saw it. But the some of those images, click on those images, Jamie, because some of those images um you could see they had the like go down there with the mice carcasses right there. You can see the difference in the size. Oh, that's not it. That's not necessarily it. I think it's actually the one where you maybe it's that. Yeah. H Well, there's plenty to look at, but yeah, there it is. You could see like the difference in the the muscle size from the average mouse, which is on the left, versus the mystatin mouse, the mileatin knockout mouse. But look at what they they're standing there. That one mouse just looks like a giant ass powerlifter mouse. These are strange times when it comes to this science. Really strange times. I mean, muscle mass is That's exactly what

138:59I saw. That's exactly the one that I saw. Good lord. It's incredible. I mean, there you've got like two levels of it. You've got level, you know, level A and level B. You've got the natural mouse, which is on the left. What is this uh image? What is this uh image titled, Jamie? So, okay. Bodybuilding and myostatin. And there's an image of three mice. One is a control, which is the average mouse. The other one says dominant negative uh how does that word go? Actib act two eyes. Uh and the other one is falstatin. And in the fall statin one, it is just a Lee Haney of mice, you know? That's a giant ass mouse. It's ridiculous. He's like double the size of the middle mouse, which is double the size of the other mouse. I don't know what either of those uh pathways are. Yeah. Or what they do, but clearly they regulate muscle mass. Something's going on. That would be kind of weird to like

139:56do an injection and like all of a sudden you're like gaining lean muscle mass without like doing anything. Doing anything. Yeah. It doesn't look like those mice are working out. No. I mean, that would be super weird, you know? That would I don't know. Well, that's one of the misconceptions about steroids. You know, people think that like you do steroids, you just get bigger and muscular. No, you actually have to work out. What? This is a guy. That's what it says is a myost obviously, right? This is Yeah. This is just Don't even click on that. Take that off. That's lies. That these goddamn supplement companies that do that, that's really gross. One of the things they do is they pay someone to get in really great shape. So someone gets in really great shape, like they'll give them steroids, they'll pump them up, and then they pay him to get fat. So they pay them to stop

140:38working out, they get fat, and then they change the way the lighting is. Like one of the things that you could see when you're dealing with fraudulent companies is uh these shirt off pics before and after. What a transformation is like in the the good picture. They're tan and the lighting is really good for accentuating muscle u you know the the shape of the muscles and the shadows and everything. They look ripped and then the other one they're like pasty and white and they pay these guys to get fat. A friend of mine they paid him to do it. Yeah. These thing right here like that guy on the right the after is the before and the guy on the left the before is they paid that guy to stop working out and get fat. How do people live with themselves like doing that? Like I just don't It seems like people are douchebags. So fraudulent. There's a lot of monsters out there. I think this

141:27is from Bigger, Stronger, Faster. I think this was actually taken like the same day. Oh wow. They did some like Photoshop extra work, brought in the sides and paint, airbrushed them and all that stuff. They do that too for sure. They definitely do that too. And um our friend Chris Bell and uh Mark Bell who were in Bigger, Stronger, Faster, you know, they they know a lot more about that than we do. And there's a picture of him right above that that if you haven't seen that documentary, I highly recommend it. Bigger, stronger, faster, which talks about the uh supplement industry and the use of steroids and all these different things. But that's one of the Yeah, it's one of the weird practices they do. Like if you look at any of those uh before and after pictures, it's mostly what you're seeing. I mean, unless they're like a really ethical company and they hired

142:09someone to take their product and continue to work out, but even then it's like when you show a before and after, what was the guy doing before? What was the guy doing after? How much is that his diet? How much of that is exercise? Like how do you know? You know, did you get a blood test on this guy? Is he on steroids? Like what what's what's happening here? Yeah. I think we should just focus on ways we can actually Yeah. Yeah. Science and ways we know like we can increase muscle mass, you know, obviously, you know, weightlifting and um I don't mean to beat up on Aubrey Deg Grrey, but when you when you brought up the science of nutrition and the factors, you know, the the the positive benefits of it, like what was his reaction? Um, and what episode has this podcast been? This is an older podcast uh that that I did. I can't remember what episode, but it's it's been a year

142:53and a half at least, I would say. Um, I can't remember his exact reaction. I mean, you can tell if you listen to the podcast. I talk I talk a lot about we talk a lot about, you know, crisper and stem cell and a lot of these, you know, possible, you know, therapies that are being used that can potentially extend lifespan. But there's a point in the podcast where nutrition comes up and um you can tell it gets a little awkward between the two of us because we kind of have different viewpoints. And I'm I'm sort of not trying to be rude because look at him there. wizard. He's a wizard. We were like so close in his office and he's Yeah. Anyways, he's an odd guy. That beard is awesome though. God damn, that's a magnificent beard. point was just that you can't you're not going to you're not going to extend lifespan by you know 40 or 50% with diet and that's what he wants to do right and

143:47that's fair but you know the point that I think you know it's it's one thing to say that and another thing to kind of disregard nutrition altogether you know cuz that's cuz that's just stupid nutrition plays a role in the way you age and so I think that should be you know it shouldn't be something that people should completely dis disregard and not and not think about and not and not even not think about but when they talk publicly talk it down like I don't like that like like that's fine if you want to focus on technologies and and I agree with that I mean I'm I'm all about you know all these gene therapy technologies and crisper and you know induced pur potent stem cells and I'm a huge huge fan of all that but I don't think that being a fan of that and and being excited about what the science you know and what new technologies are are going to be able to bring us should you know make

144:36talk about like kind of poo poo on nutrition, right? Well, I think also a big factor is the way you feel and a big factor to I mean I I assume he does doesn't just want to extend a shitty life, right? You want to extend a life where you feel wonderful, right? Right. And well, if you're boozing all the time like he is, that guy boozes every day. I talked to him like we were drunk as in New York. I went to that uh what is it 2045 conference? There there's a uh conference in New York where all of these nutty people who think you're going to be able to download your brain into a supercomput and the year 2045 like this extended life conference and uh lot a lot of it was run by this Russian billionaire that I talked to which was he was a very odd character but he was building a robot that they were not satisfied with the results of this robot so they uh they never uh

145:28unearthed it they never uh unveiled it rather but these all these people this 204 45 conference in New York. We're all like this gathering of like these super geeks that are all in various ways trying to extend life. And Aubrey Deg Grrey was there as well and I met him at the bar and we just got hammered. We got hammered and we're talking. I'm like, is are we extending life? What's going on? It feels like we're just drinking Guinness. You're doing the opposite. You are causing massive inflammation, brain cell death. This is terrible, Aubrey. What are we doing? But, you know, I mean, those are two like very contrary ways of uh existing to look to extend life, but yet to diminish the potential of the life you're currently experiencing. But, you know, I guess he's having fun, you know. Yeah. I I don't you know he was an interesting guy and and I and enjoyed

146:18talking to him but I don't want to talk bad about him but when I was very shocked when I walked into his office at literally like 11 in the morning and he had already down two beers and he was on his third and I was just like I didn't I I wasn't expecting that. I wasn't I mean it was completely shocking to me. Yeah. And so God bless him out there hammering it, you know. I Who knows? Yeah. Who knows? Yeah. Yeah. But I guess there's a lot of different approaches and I think he's his approach is welcome. It's interesting. It's and it's it's just as important, you know, that to have a guy like that that's kind of up his body and still still after it. Like it's it's interesting, right? Um you know, this like I was saying though, the the thing that with him and I, you know, the the major difference has been focusing on nutrition and that's something that um that I want to get the message

147:10across. That's, you know, I want something you can do right now. Yeah. something you can do right now until and and in the meanwhile still telling people about the the awesome science coming out but until then let's you know keep let's keep it going. They're not mutually exclusive. They're not they're not mutually mutually exclusive. Um the other you know one of the things that we were talking about the muscle mass I started thinking about um this timerestricted eating. Have you heard about this at all? timerestricted eating a little bit like eating within like a certain time period that correlates, you know, corresponds to like the day. It has really profound effects on on muscle mass without any other factors without having to exercise or anything. That's something that's extremely interesting. But this like timerestricted eating is it's very important for for health and

147:57metabolism. It's also something I've been obsessed with since like probably early summer. I've been doing it like just you know really fanatically making sure that I'm eating within like a no more than 12 hour period. I try to do like 10 hours. So like when you wake up in the morning, you have a cup of coffee or you know you eat even a cup of black coffee, the first thing you put into your your system that's not water starts all these metabolic enzymes, starts them in your liver, you know, your gut starts these these enzymes and those enzymes are on a clock because humans are dal creatures. We're we're meant to be awake and working and active and thinking during the day and we sleep at night which is different from nocturnal creatures like some rodents and other animals that are you know sleep during the day and active during night. So because we're meant we are active during

148:46the day we're dal all these all of our metabolism metabolism enzymes and all these things are active during the day. Um and things that activate them are light light exposure and also food intake and xeninoiotic is also something. So, anything that gets metabolized like by your by your system, by your liver, whatever, activates these enzymes. And once they're activated, they're on this like 12-hour clock where it's like, okay, so you're metabolizing glucose, fatty acids, all these things, you know, well, if you're eating within that 12-hour clock, but when you go beyond that 12-hour clock, that's when things start to go really wrong cuz your metabolism enzymes start to shut down and they're not doing things properly. So, you're not like insulin responsive. you're not even fatty acids and things like that just metabolism in general is not working as well, you know, after 12

149:37hours. And so that's kind of a big eye openener. I know there was um a lot of people think they eat a 12-h hour time period, like if you were to survey them like, oh yeah, I I don't eat more than 12 hours. But there's actually a study done by a friend of mine who's a expert in this field. He's at the Sulk Institute. His name is Sachin Panda. Um a very good scientist. I interviewed him on on my podcast and he's, you know, done a lot of research on this this topic and he did a human study where he had like this app where people logged their they took pictures of the food that they ate and it like, you know, sent it to some database they had and it had a time stamp on it so they could, you know, see when the clock when they when their first cup of coffee or whatever was in the morning and then when they were eating at night. Turned out most people were actually eating on

150:21a 15 hour clock. So they were having their cup of coffee, you know, at 8 7 in the morning and they were, you know, they were eating at like 9 10 o'clock. Yeah. So they were eating much later. Um the the thing is is that like when you do that, you start to gain more more um fat. You start to become more insulin insensitive and you start to like your muscle starts to waste regardless of what you eat. Regardless of what you eat. So So okay, no, I take that back. So you if you eat healthy if you eat healthy so if you're eating a terrible diet if you're eating a terrible diet that's and this has been shown in mice like fat lard fat plus sugar those two together which is the actual the bad combination. I'm glad you brought that up and I'm going to make a note but keep those two are the bad combinations. So if you eat it if you're eating that if you're feeding the mice that and you let

151:12them eat whenever they want so they can eat they're nocturnal but I'm just going to call it day and their day is actually night. Just know that that's true. if they're eating during the day and night, they gain like, you know, tons of weight, become fat, become like, you know, type two diabetic, fatty liver. I mean, they're just mess. They're breaking down like like earlier than they should. But if you eat normal, so if you're eating like a healthy diet that's not highfat, high sugar, um you don't necessarily you're not necessarily going to gain more fat. You don't you don't become type 2 diabetic and all that if you're not eating all the the crap. So, you're probably just going to be okay. But if you take that same mouse who's eating a healthy diet and you make it eat within a timerestricted window of at least 12 hours, actually the best was um 9 to 10, they gain way more muscle

152:01mass. This is on a normal diet, just way more muscle mass. And if they ate within a 9-h hour window, they had like really improved endurance. That's something I've noticed in myself. If I eat within a 9-h hour window and I go for a run the next morning, my endurance is like very noticeably improved. like extremely noticeably improved. So, do you have like a timer? Like how do you do you do you time yourself at the beginning of your day? Like when you first eat and then Yeah. So, I typically Well, my So, my friend Kevin Rose has an app that like um it's called Darn. What did he Kevin Rose has an app? Kevin Rose from Dig. Yeah, I've had him on. Love that guy. Yeah, he's awesome. He He's a big ketogenic diet proponent as well. Um, yeah, he doesn't actually do keto anymore because uh after he got a bunch of blood work done and I mean it there's there's different, you know, genes that people

152:50have that can affect the way they respond to that sort of diet. Most of the time people can respond good, but that's interesting because he was on here just wasn't that long ago introducing zero, a new app to help you fast. So he has an app that helps you do that that actually works really well. Personally, what I do is I'm just kind of crazy about it and I just like remember it that day. So, I'm like, "Okay, I had my first cup of coffee at 8:00 a.m." But his app actually is really cool because it really helps you keep track and it sends you reminders. So, like helps you and it's it's a free app. So, powerful Kevin Rose. Anyways, it's really cool because you can just like literally these mice were gaining more muscle mass just not by doing anything but eating within this timerestricted window. And um the thing that was also very interesting about this was that um

153:38you could cheat a couple of days a week. So they could like like let's say weekends when you have like social events and you're like out drinking or whatever, you can you can cheat two nights and still have the same benefits. So that at least in mice. We don't know if that's the same for humans. Satchin's doing trying to um aggregate some data with humans. He actually has an ongoing trial that anyone can sign up for. Um, it's called My Circadian Clock and it's an also an app on his on the phone that you just basically all you do is like sign a consent form, take pictures of your food and uh and like allow certain data, you know, different different fitness data for them to collect and and so they're doing this clinical study with um humans from data that they're aggregating, which is kind of cool. I'm getting his fasting tracker right now. Bam. Yeah. And you can do he has

154:24different options um for Kevin's fasting. It's like the circadian option, which is the one I'm talking about. And then there's like people that are doing intermittent fasting. And what's the circadian option? That's that's the timerestricted eating. That's it's just basically circadian is the circadian clock you're on. So that's what it's this 24-hour cycle, day, night cycle. So eating within at least a 12-h hour window is So 12 hour is the most you ever want. So if you get up at 8:00 in the morning, that's when you have your first cup of coffee. That's when it starts. Not with food. It starts with first cup of coffee because that's interesting because a lot of people don't think that. They think that they're still fasting if they have a cup of coffee and then they go run. That's the thing. Um so because coffee, even if it's black, so people think if they have

155:07black coffee they're fasting and they go run. But black coffee is caffeine is a xeninoi. It's something that has to be metabolized by liver enzymes. Your gut processes it. So anything that has other than water. Exactly. Anything other than water. And the same goes for like taking vitamin pills or drinking herbal tea late at night. Like the same the same thing goes even herbal tea. Herbal tea is also herb got herb stuff in it. So caff non-caffeinated herbal tea like Yeah. Because those are xenobiotics. Chamomile. I mean that stuff's got to be processed by your liver or your gut. It's it's not it's not water, right? You know, so I mean, and this is something that's kind of a a big question, and that is, well, if the fasting, let's say you're you're eating within a like 9 hour window or, you know, 10-hour window, you're 9 hours optimal. 9 hours is really what I found to be optimal for

155:56endurance. In terms of the animal studies, like 10 hours also, if they eating their healthy diet within 10 hours, they still had um they increased their lean muscle mass. They didn't have to do anything else. No extra exercising. it just because what was happening is they were they were basically um their mitochondria were working better and they were also um getting rid of fat easier. So, you know, so it increased their lean muscle mass. That's incredible because I I eat late at night all the time. Well, you're a comedian. I mean, that's probably you probably eat after a show or something. Yeah, I came home last night at 2 o'clock in the morning piged out after a show. I mean, it was healthy food. I ate like kefir and pistachio nuts. I buy those uh big jugs of shelled pistachios so the shells are removed. So I just eat like piles of pistachios because I feel

156:45like I'm not eating anything bad. That's good for you. But this knowledge now knowing this, I'm going to I'm going to cut that out now. Please let me know how that goes. I'm going to I'm going to start right now. Yeah, that's awesome. I mean, like I said, you can cheat. There was cheating at least in mice. Twice twice a week was okay. Two times a week is a good cheat. Was a Yeah. And that's kind of cool because it's like a weekend, right? Right. Yeah. You know, so you have your social event. It's hard to do with social events and stuff. If you have like something late, then you kind of have to fast all early in the morning all the way up until you can do it later. Yeah. You know what I mean? But I do a lot of workouts fasted now. And one of the things that I like to do is I get up in the morning without having anything and then I work out. But I've been having coffee. So I I thought

157:27I was fasting. Well, see the thing is, and this is kind of what I was talking with Sachin about, um, is that it's if you're fasting itself, the fasting itself is having a positive effect on all these enzymes. So maybe there's some sort of cancellization out. It's not it's not as good. It's not as good, I would say. So just water. We don't have actual empirical data on that saying okay well you know and that's something that Satchin would like to look at in humans because it's like a big question if you are just fasting uh in the bas in theory it's not you're you're starting all those clocks the clocks are the caffeine starts the clocks that's known so but then again you know like I said fasting changes your metabolism in a way too that makes it better so maybe it's not quite as bad not quite as bad but not optimal exactly I like that that's perfect yeah So shoot for nine hours.

158:19That was like that 9 hours is the best especially for endurance like enhancements like really. So if you get up and you're at, you know, if you're up at 8:00 in the morning or 7 o'clock in the morning, whatever it is, you almost have to eat dinner like at 5. Yeah, that's the problem. You have to you have to either fast in the morning or you have to eat early, which is really hard for working people. 9 to5ers. Yeah. I mean it's like you're eating breakfast before you go to work unless you're not right and that's kind of the problem for people that are going you know which is most humans. Yeah I see we have a you know life is kind of different now but it it's you know there are people that we're talking about they just take their breakfast to work and they wait so they'll wait till like 10:00 to eat or something like that. Yeah because also there's people that like to go to the

159:06gym after work and so there's more time. It's like you got to got to race this clock. Well I got to eat you know. So really if you can start the clock later if that's possible for people that are working like that that don't have flexible hours um then then it would be better to start the clock later. And there's a lot of human data on this like just looking at like the associations between people that eat within you know an 11 hour period and fast for 13 hours um for example women that do that that have already had breast cancer they reduce their breast cancer risk recurrence by like 40%. You know Wow. Yeah. because it lowers it lo it it causes insulin sensitivity. It lowers like IGF-1 levels. I mean it's just like it lowers all these like hormones and things that are known to promote cancer growth. It's really a powerful thing and improves metabolism. Really improves

159:54metabolism and that's something that um a couple of scientists that I've talked to that are at UCSD have are looking at and actively seeing that it's just it seems to be really important. Now obviously people doing shift work like nurses are kind of I mean that's the problem. Yeah. Yeah, they're kind of when you're doing that late shift stuff. And they are they're they have twice the cancer incidence. Like really? Yeah. Twice. Twice. Wow. Shift workers, they're also much more likely to be type two diabetic. You know, it's because you're eating you're eating like when you're at night, you're eating, you know, your metabolism all is all screwed up. Not only are you like when you're eating after the 12-h hour clock, are you not as insulin sensitive and so your blood glucose levels are higher, also you're confusing your clock. So, kind of like it says, "Okay, I'm restarting now

160:40because it's late. I'm getting my first signal in. It's after been it's been after 12 hours and it confuses it." So, then when you go to sleep, say you eat at 2 in the morning and you go to sleep and you wake up the next morning and you have your meal, it's already going to have started that clock a while ago. So, you won't be as insulin sensitive because you the earlier in the day you're the more the more insulin sensitive you are. So, you know what I mean? So, you're kind of like confusing the clock. It's like this um a very complicated but I think important mechanism and system for people to understand and timerestricted timerestricted eating like I have really implemented that because I think that's something that also will affect um the aging process. I've talked to people like at conferences I've you know given a talk at that have come up to me

161:24afterwards and they're they were talking about how they've been on a ketogenic diet for two years and how it you know they've reversed their type two diabetes. It's been great, but still their fasting blood glucose levels were still on the high end, you know, even though they're no longer type two diabetic. I mean, which is really good. And they started doing the timerestricted eating where they were eating within a 9-hour window, and it completely resolved it. Completely resolved it. And I've actually had multiple people tell me that. And it's insane. It's And the amazing thing is the increase in muscle. The muscle is really the increase the the um interesting part. I would like to like talk to Satchin more about that and uh have him do more experiments if possible uh because we didn't dive as much into that on the podcast when we chatted but he is such a phenomenal scientist and

162:09he's very uh proactive and into health and all this you know preventative medicine and he's just a great great person the Sulkq Institute in La Hoya very prestigious place to be there's a lot of really good scientists there did you do um your podcast with him through Skype or did you down there. You're down in San Diego, right? Yeah. I usually try to um I like to meet with people when I when I interview them. Yeah, me too. So So I uh I've noticed. Yeah. I can't like I've done Skype ones and they're just it's like there's a disconnect. There's something missing. Yeah. What's nice for you is you actually have a studio and people come to your studio. So right now I'm I'm like going around to institutes and you know if I'm at like a place where I'm giving a talk and I'm like there's great scientists there, I'm going to ask people to to interview. How do you uh spell his name? Um s a t

163:00uh c h i n. Sachin panda. He's What a great name. Yeah, sounds actually his first name is Sachin Dandanda. What? That's his cuz he's Indian, so he's shortened it to Sachin. But he's um he's a really good person to talk to, too. Like he's very uh you know just he speaks eloquently. He explained things. He has a little bit of an Indian accent, but you know, it's just it's kind of like cute. But his science has changed my life. Like, oh yeah. All of my circadian knowledge I've I've I've been following him for a few years. like I've really looked up to him for a in fact I don't even know if I told him this but I was like interested in doing a posttock with him a certain point like after I had finished my PhD cuz I thought his he was back back in 2012 when I graduated he was making these discoveries about late night eating and how it like how it makes you um you know more so you're

163:54basically more insulin um uh resistant how it's like screwing up brain function too all these things that I didn't even talk about and and start I got really interested in it because I know a lot of people that eat late at night and people that are having trouble losing weight and all that are eating late at night. So, wow, that's amazing. I'm I'm going to listen to his podcast with you and uh or your podcast with you rather and check that out. That's uh that sounds awesome. That'd be cool. So, the saturated fat sugar is what you wanted to you wrote that down. Yeah, I did because you actually sent me an article about that which I found was really fascinating that there although saturated fat is important, it's uh how would you describe it as a precursor to hormones? It's it's not just a precursor to hormones. So saturated so saturated fat increases um LDL cholesterol, LDL

164:44lipoprote proteins which carry cholesterol and fatty acids. We always call it cholesterol. It's a type of it it it's a transporter of cholesterol, but it also transports fatty acids and other things. But the thing is is, you know, the LDL is very very important because um every time you make a new cell in your body, which is happening constantly, you're always making new immune cells, you're making new kidney cells, you're making new liver cells. I mean, it's happening all the time. Anytime you make a new cell, you need LDL there to transport cholesterol and fatty acids because cell membrane, the cell itself, the membrane is made of it. It has fatty acids and cholesterol and phospholipids and other things. But so you need that cholesterol when you damage a cell, you know, and you're repairing that damage. Cholesterol needs to be there. So I mean, you really

165:32really need cholesterol. LDL cholesterol is very important for that for that reason. And without it, you're kind of screwed, right? I mean, you can't like repair damage as well. You're not going to make as many new cells. So, all these people that are avoiding saturated fats and cholesterol in their diet, they're doing they're literally doing literally doing their cell regeneration a disservice. Well, I don't want to make that broad statement because I don't know what else they're maybe they're getting other types of uh fatty acids that also help. But yes, people that are like on statins for example, which is a very broad way of uh inhibiting like cholesterol synthesis brought like full stop. Um that's why a lot of those pe uh people on statins um one of the major major side effects is muscle atrophy and muscle wasting, you know, because your muscle is one of those cells you're

166:22constantly repairing damage and making muscle and it's a big big problem huge problem with statin statin users. It also so a colleague of mine um Ron Krauss he's at at uh the children's hospital in Oakland he has been studying statins and their effect on mitochondria and he was telling me that it's like toxic to mitochondria and he's trying to figure out why is it's like maybe that's partly why it's um also causing muscle wasting. So if people don't consume saturated fats or they lower their radically lower the saturated fat in their diet, how does their body produce new cell membranes? Well, I mean you still you're you're making cholesterol, you know, in your body and you're making it from they're getting fatty acids and they're getting it from plants. I mean, plant steriles, they're getting them from from other sources, you know, but I think the problem with the with the

167:19saturated fat was it's not so much that uh cuz people still get it to some degree. I mean, it's like but it's not optimum. Yeah. I mean, I I don't know. I can't it I'd have to see like the person. I think it it varies depending on what else they're eating. But, you know, the pro I think the problem was that saturated fat was demonized. Well, it was demonized in a very corrupt way, which is the the the recent New York Times article that was released, which is a mindblower, which detailed how the sugar industry had bribed scientists to release data blaming saturated fat for heart disease and obesity and all these issues when it was in fact sugar that was causing all that. So, they were literally rigging the system and paying scientists. And it was a horrible article because that propaganda and these lies that they spread, I believe it was in the 50s, here it is, how the

168:13sugar industry shifted the blame to fat. And it's if you uh get a chance and you want to feel sick at what can be done with money, watch or read that because it's just it's awful. It is really awful. And um it was an internal sugar industry document that was uh discovered by a researcher at the University of California in San Francisco. when it was published, it said Monday when this was out. I believe it was a couple of months ago. Um, but it was amazing. It suggested that five decades of research into the role of nutrition and heart disease, including many of today's dietary recommendations, may have been largely shaped by the sugar industry and propaganda and money. They spent money to literally bribe scientists to release false data. It's horrible. It's really nasty. But I mean, the thing is, and not that much money either. Here's go go go go go go back to it here. They paid

169:06three Harvard scientists the equivalent of $50,000 in today's dollars to publish a 1967 review of research on sugar, fat, and heart disease. The studies used in the review were handpicked by the sugar group in the article which was published in the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine minimize the link between sugar and heart health and cast aspirations on the role of saturated fat. Even though the influence pedaling revealed in the documents dates back to nearly 50 years, more recent reports show that the food industry has continued to influence nutrition science. This had such a negative like there were such negative consequences from this from from the demonization of saturated fat. Um because people then obviously started eating more refined like for for breakfast in the morning instead of having eggs, you're having like cereal. But the real problem was the trans fats

169:59because trans fats can can have similar but they're hydrogen hydrogenated fats which you know you take like a a monossaturated fat and hydrogenated and you can have similar propert properties as a saturated fat like butter how it's solid um and then you know melts at at a higher temperature. But these trans fats I mean I remember my mom had a big tub of margarine. I mean, we used to put margarine on our mashed potatoes on and everybody thought it was healthy. And it was so I mean, it's not just unhealthy. I mean, it was literally that's what's it causes heart disease because the trans fats, like I said, you take these fats up into your new cells, right? Because that's part of what you know, fatty acids and cholesterol, that's part of what you're doing with them in your body. The trans fats get taken up and the whole structure of it like screwed up. So, when this happens in the

170:44endothelial cells lining your blood vessels, it makes them real stiff. real stiff and like I mean it just like screws it up. So trans fats are like we have known about the like the the fact that trans fats are playing a causal role in heart disease for like decades and the FDA finally in 2015 2015 okay finally banned them from the US and gave all the companies that are still putting them in their processed foods and a lot of fast foods companies use like Crisco because it's cheaper three years to get it off the market. So we have until 2018. Jesus Christ. Three years to get rid of poison. And that's after already like decades of knowing it's like you know that this is like it's like so bad so so bad for you. Um anyways that's a that's a whole that's one of the major repercussions. Then obviously then you know people became scared of saturated fat and you know the thing the thing

171:38with the sugar and this is kind of what you were initially you know hinting at is that a lot there there have been a lot of studies that have linked you know that weren't corrupt you know by the sugar like these were the early studies but there have been studies that have linked saturated fat intake to heart disease and and a lot of those studies were also because people were eating in addition to saturated fat they didn't correct for like refined sugar intake which is really what the problem is. And that has now been shown in multiple studies. So, you know, and and this came down to actually being able to um have new technology available that was able to then, you know, LDL is not there's not just one LDL, you know, cholesterol in the body comes in all sizes. And the the type the type that we were talking about, the good type is the large buoyant type and that's what saturated

172:24fat increases. There's also it gets processed into smaller parts that are um small dense LDL and that's what gets basically it can't get recycled back to the liver so it stays around the bloodstream and underos inflammatory transformations and sticks in the blood vessels causes all this problem right that's what refined sugar inc increases and that's been shown in clinical studies so like healthy young men that were given 20 ounces of soda a day for 3 weeks it um totally healthy young men increased this increased their LD small dense LDL particles like massively increase their small dense LDL particles and also increase their inflammatory markers C reactive protein by like almost 100%. Which is like crazy. So we're talking about like you know the refined sugar is what can make saturated fat dangerous is when you combine the two because the LDL gets processed into

173:15the small dense and it's refined sugar that does that. So so small dense LDL versus LDL. Yeah. And so the thing is is that even now it's not standard of care to like measure all the particle sizes. It's like we've known about this for at least a decade now. Like so Ron Krauss he is um he's the guy who actually pioneered this assay and figured out how to to measure them the small dense LDL. It's called the ion mobility assay. Uh it's I know Quest Labs does it but you can also ask your physician. You can ask your physician to measure the particle size. Um, but the thing is is that because it's not something that's standard of care, when you go in to measure your LDL cholesterol and it's above a certain number, physicians are like freaking out and like you should get on statins. But the reality is is that you need to look at the small dense LDL. That's what's actually, you know,

174:02puts you at risk for heart disease and that's just not standard of care. You have to like specifically ask for it. You know, it's so crazy that there's such a vast difference in the consequences for your health, but yet it's not tested even though the knowledge is there. Well, that's what I was saying. with the trans fat. I mean, the knowledge was there. Like I was talking to my like 88-year-old mentor, Bruce Ames, and he was like, I remember back in the 80s, oh, we stayed away from that and never gave margarine to my children. I'm like, well, you're a scientist. Like my mom wasn't, you know, like he's known about this for like when I was like like five, you know, he's known he's known it for 30 years. That's insane. And now 2015 is when, you know, there's always a lag between research and application of it. But I mean, I don't know what it takes. I don't know what it takes to, you know,

174:47maybe these regulatory committees may there's probably a lot more than I know that goes into like figuring out like how you make these regulations, but it's only financially motivated. That's what's disgusting about it. They're giving these companies three years to get poison out of food. That is what really upsets me. I'm like, okay, you finally finally have banned it in the US, but you're giving three years like three years for people to profit off of poisoning folks. Yeah. Killing people. Yeah. and not letting them know. I mean, you should have a cancer recommendation or warning the same way you have on cigarettes. Yeah. And it's not even like you can go like people go to the supermarket and it'll say no trans fats on their food and all that, but when they go to fast food or they go to some like restaurant where they're using Crisco, they're not even going to

175:29know they're getting it. They're not even telling you. This was awesome. Oh man. Totally. God damn. I loved it. This was great. You blow my mind every time. This is amazing. Um, there's a lot to study, folks. So, go over this podcast 30 or 40 times and I know I'm going to go over it a few. Um, Found My Fitness on Twitter. Um, your your podcast is Found My Fitness. Yeah, I have a podcast. It's called Found My Fitness. Um, actually, I just released a podcast today with uh Dr. Roland Griffiths, who is the notorious um psychedelic psilocybin researcher. I met with him when I was at Johns Hopkins. outside of my realm, but um you should listen to it. It's interesting. I will definitely do that and let's do it again soon. It's been too long. So much fun. Thank you so much. Thanks. Appreciate it. All right, folks. We'll see you. Bye.