Zach Leary

00:05all right man we're live awesome thanks for having me man thanks for being here yeah this is cool this is cool any friend of Duncan a friend of mine hey likewise likewise it's cool it's fun dude okay so I have to ask the opening question what the is it like being the son of Timothy lery the the opening question right it has to be the has to be okay that's cool um yeah man you know and you know that the answer to the question kind of it's it's changed a lot over the course of time obviously you know because when I was younger when I was a kid you know really up until my mid 20s even my late 20s I would say like I didn't know how to answer that question how could I it's just all I knew was just life you know it's just my dad it's just how I grew up you know he would take me to Little League he'd make sure I did my homework or didn't do my homework in my case but whatever it was

00:55you know what I mean it just was life I didn't have any objectivity to it I didn't have any distance from it I couldn't be removed from it you know I didn't know like that it was perhaps really strange right and then uh you know he he died in '96 uh you know I was 22 and then kind of after that then I sort of you know I got some distance from it then I was like oh you know things were a little different at home you know they were well your dad is probably like one of the most important if not the most important people ever in terms of the Psychedelic Revolution he was I mean yeah I my relationship with him and my relationship especially with his work was um yeah I mean of course the psychelic part was a core pillar and I understood that's what made him famous but I considered him to be like he was a futurist really you know when you during my formative years I

01:51mean the Psychedelic thing was always there but he was much more interested in like in technology and cyber culture and kind of like the progressive kind of Technology arts and things like that and uh you know in the 80s he called uh the the PC the LSD of the80s you know so he was kind of really shifting and I kind of considered him uh somebody who just had like the innate ability to constantly reinvent himself and of course the psychedelics were you know were the core I guess probably it was also probably a big part of how he could reinvent himself right yeah yeah yeah no that that that's that's true I mean well and considering I you can relate with this I think too and you know he didn't do his first psychedelic until he was 40 wow you were what 30 or something yeah right yeah so it's a similar like you're well into your adult life and you're you're well formed you have an identity

02:42that's Jack harrer's story too oh is it I didn't yeah Jack har was a Goldwater Republican like deep into his I I think he was getting divorced and met a met a young G and she turned him onto the weed and all of a sudden he was like hey what the have I been missing yeah he still to this day it's still the strongest weed I've ever had with Jack Harris train yeah man he was a cool guy man bumped me out when he left yeah and did good work so your dad probably would have had an amazing time with what's going on today in terms of virtual reality and the the integration of cell phones into our life in an almost inescapable way yeah I mean it's funny like the VR thing we were just Jamie and I were just talking about it before we rolled tape um you know we were doing VR like yeah you know we were at the NASA ases research center people were like jiren laner and were like really um uh

03:37you know jally was kind of The Godfather of VR and he was bringing kind of setups to our house in the early 90s and like really early kind of almost 8bit rudimentary VR but it was there so what like what did that stuff look like it kind of looked like um being an inside of an Atari video game so real pixelated pixelated bit kind of clunky block like but with full 3d dimensionality and stuff like that he it Duncan's Oculus the first one of the first versions that he had which was kind of like that real kind of real pixelated was it similar to that very similar to that yeah and uh yeah Duncan and I uh we went on the show together this thing called gunters Universe it's VR Chat Show and you know this was recent and you know it's still VR is still kind of in that you know how does that work like does someone have a a VR headset on in another location and then

04:31you guys both enter the same room so you're in the room together yeah well Duncan actually we were in the same room together physically we happened to be but yeah and then all of these people with different headsets on and then everybody has a different Avatar and they're all in that room with you they're all in in the room with us w wow very cool very cool but like in that one um I think the servers crashed too many people oh how many people can it support uh what we had maybe like a thousand I think oh wow but yeah like to get beyond that you need some I mean the avatars you know they're pretty involved they're pretty you know they made me into this har Krishna monk or some and Duncan was like this psychedelic clown it was it was pretty cool but yeah you know my Dad loved VR we were you know he was he was right he'd love it it' be really cool yeah I've always thought about him

05:18and McKenna McKenna obviously was a big futurist as well and completely fascinated by yeah the the the possibilities and where technology was going I would have loved to seen those guys today just take this all in and try to yeah amazing right like Terren was writing about the connection between cocy and virtual reality right I mean that's the subtext of not fruit of the Gods but of um one hallucinations no no it wasn't that one um I'm forgetting which one's but it's called mushrooms virtual reality and you know and he really saw the connection between and you know there's no accident that the Godfathers the true Visionaries of the Silicon Valley movement were kind of remnants from the' 60s you know Steve Jobs archaic revival is that it aric Revival yeah that's it yeah that's right um yeah he also Terren also had this idea that you would be able to recreate

06:16the DMT World in virtual reality and you'd be able to experience what people see when they're on DMT without actually taking the drug he believed that there was going to come a time when technology was so good and the the images that you could create would be so elaborate that you literally could create the DMT images I kind of believe it I'm kind of I'm kind of leaning there right now myself you know I mean we kind of uh again Duncan you know we kind of had this crackpot idea of taking a uh VR into the flotation tank into the float tank with this kind of in mind that by disassociating the body and kind of getting rid of because you know what's the big DMT thing is it's a disassociative you just leave Joe you leave Zach and you become right whatever so by taking the VR mask the headset into the tank maybe combining the Two Worlds it could I don't know I'm still bullish on that I

07:08think it could work I think Terence is right it sounds like it could be possible I know Crash from the float lab excuse me the float lab crash has this setup where he has developed this screen that has like the lowest amount of light that could be emitted to the point where you don't see the edges of the screen so you literally while you're in the tank it's floating above your head it's suspended above your head and you see the image as if it's like just the video just floating in the sky oh wow and he believes that by separating your body from uh sensory input like so you're not feeling your feet on the ground you're not feeling the weight of the world and your shoulders All That Jazz you're floating he he thinks you could take in data better and so his idea was to show documentaries and you know instructionals and things along those lines that you would learn quicker that

07:56way yeah interesting right because so much of your brain and like your the function of the cerebral cortex is to integrate the body this this movement standing upright you know and the being muscular and moving around and if you get rid of that right your brain kind of opens up and can take more in well the way I always describe it to people that they haven't used the tank I was like imagine if you were having a conversation but next to you people were screaming if it was an important conversation you'd want to get away from those people screaming because even though you think of it as a distraction it's just input it's just data that you have to consider right you know well you also have to consider your butt on this chair the room the dimensions that you're calculating as you're moving your head around social cues language all these different things are all being

08:37calculated and they require resources right well when you are in that tank there's none of that and so your brain feels supercharged it feels like you have all these resources have been opened up to you yeah and and I agree and I think you know all of those resources resources that you're speaking of those are sort of the things that contribute to this idea of what we call the ego M you know and the same thing with pics you know they formulate the ego and our body and being separate oh my God Joe you're strong I me you know just all these kind of different things that create this image of who we think we are psychedelics the tank meditation whatever method you want to pick gets rid of that yeah and purely gets into you know sand or something is did you ever meet John Lily oh yeah spent a lot of time with joh oh wow yeah I did a lot yeah did a lot of what I a lot of good

09:28research with John research air quotes back in the day yeah that guy man he's the for people who don't know we're talking about the guy who invented the sensory deprivation tank and he was a Pioneer in interspecies communication with dolphins yeah fascinating fascinating guy fascinating guy and you know the last 20 years of his life um you know the ketaman aspect was such a a huge part of of what he was doing and did he get two into it the ketamine seems to be an addictive substance um look I love John I did I thought he was great he was a good friend of my dad's and and I certainly wouldn't uh say anything too negative about him but yeah he prob one to over the line man sweet Jesus Tod Todd McCormack has a very funny story about do you know who Tod McCormack is I don't know Todd's one of the first guys to get arrested in California for medical marijuana where um he was

10:21arrested in like the early the late 90s or early 2000s and um he was one of the first people to find out that when and you are legally growing marijuana in California because of the law the medical law the federal government can still prosecute you and when they prosecute you you are in court you are not allowed to even bring up the term medical marijuana because that's not a real term federally so he had yeah was a railroad he got railroaded and he went to jail um but anyway point being he was uh at John Lily he actually still owns John Lily's tank oh wow yeah and he was with John Lily and John Lily uh invited him to get in the tank and uh so Todd's about to go in the tank and he says do you want to do ketamine and and he's like I'm stepping into the tank and he he's like uh of course you know it's John ly what am I gonna say right so he hits him with a blast of intramuscular

11:16ketamine in his thigh and then Todd starts freaking out he's in the tank and he's freaking out so Jon gets in another tank next to him blasts himself with ketamine and goes and visits him what yeah go yeah they found whatever same dimension in the ketamine world and it worked yes it work what does that mean I don't know cuz I've never done ketamines I don't have you yeah I've done it in the tank too what okay what is what happens in there well it's been a while since I've done it in the tank and I'm not so sure I'd do it again I don't feel the calling to do it again uh but I'm glad I did it um God man well do you read that description of what Terren writes about ketaman that it's um I'm not sure I'm going to get it exactly right but ketaman is sort of like you're going inside of an office building but it's Stark and there's nothing in the office building something

12:12like that V it's vacant yes um well he believed Terence believed that when you were experiencing like a a heavy duty mushroom trip you're not just experiencing your trip but you're experiencing all the different people that have ever done mushrooms together tripping which is why a lot of people when they take psilocybin particularly they get a lot of Aztec and Mayan imagery right that's the archaic R what it is yeah yeah I mean our every single indigenous culture you know except for the eskimos because they couldn't grow but every single indigenous culture until very recently seuls were a core part of their of their methodology of of their tribal rituals you know yeah the Inu got huh just nothing up there dude you picked a bad spot Pi the bad spot eating so much fish but yeah ketamin in the tank though I mean it is um it it's quite a journey I it's you

13:07know it's kind of like how the best way I could explain it is if black if you could see colors within Blackness if there are Shades of Black if that makes any sense like cuz it's Pitch Black in the tank and your head is pitch black but somehow you're getting sacred geometry and sort of kind of vision and kind of downloads that are in the color black if that makes any sense at all um yeah God I mean one of the the great uh moments of my life actually was um take I was took ketaman inside the tank and um uh this tank was right outside of my dad's kind of sliding glass window um uh which went out into the lawn and his bedroom uh up in up here in the in the Hollywood Hills and um you know I went in I took a little C in romoss was visiting that day visiting my dad and uh it's the last time they ever saw each other um and he died just my dad died just like a month afterwards

14:08and I went inside the tank uh the two of them were visiting right outside of the tank hatch you know how the hatch comes out and they didn't know I was inside uh and I was I was lost in this khole just completely just like oh my God what I'm making to do and the only thing I knew how to do was like you know get the out the khole for people who don't know what we're talking about is what people describe the camine experience when you're just really kind of stuck yeah and stuck and like kind of like code red like eject hit the eject button you know so I popped open the hatch got out and you know my dad and and romoss are sitting as close as you and I right now are right now and you know I'm self-referential enough to know like oh wow this is crazy the two of them sitting here right now I mean I wasn't stupid and you're naked and you're tripping on K naked tripping on

14:56ketaman and everyone Isa completely silent staring at each other and Romos just leans into me and goes who are you now whoa and it was kind of like a defining moment on my life Journey changed my life man who are you now yeah and it's it's kind of my mantra for for life now but that that was over 20 years ago now wow so did you feel like was that the last time you did it in the tank uh no oh you're glutton for pun yeah I I did do it one other time after that yeah so what is it particularly about the khole like when you when you go into what they call a khole like I've I've heard it described by people who are like recreational users I would I wouldn't call them Psychonauts they're more like you know people go to Raves and stuff it's dark man it's dark and I don't quite get it um I don't get the the ketamin in the public Rave setting at all doesn't make sense to me but but

15:53but um John loved it Lily right he did loved it ketam maniac but why was that his thing like what did what was his Raves about it I mean he just oh God I mean well to to understand that relationship is also to understand John a little bit in the sense that you know I mean he was the guy who said you know my body is my laboratory right you know I mean he was you know at one point he gave himself a boob implant you know I mean he was way out there and what did he use for the boob imp plant I don't know like the ones that standard ones that women get yeah yeah like Silicon or whatever did he give himself one only one no he had two he had two really so he was you there was some Darkness involved there and did he try to make them look like women's breasts yeah yeah yeah if I recall see we can find a picture that yeah see if we can um did did he lose a bet or is just

16:47like no I wanted to have breast implants I think it just was my body is my laboratory now and sort of just that I mean at that time I mean now what being gender fluid is such a you know we could talk about that right but I don't think that's really gender fluid I you know that's one of the things about breast implants it's like list at the end of the day everyone knows what the that is it's like there's this there's this weird sort of suspension of disbelief where we're looking at these water bags that are surgically stuffed under your skin and we're just pretending this is like these are sexual organs that are plump and and ripe on the vine but it's not it's it's one of the weirder things about like being a Tripper and deciding to do that it's like well you're you're violating a lot of like bizarre paradigms yeah but I mean he was also kind of but bending the

17:35Paradigm and kind of bending the idea of like you know you can be anything this time around if I want if I want to be half woman I can be half woman I can do that I'm a doctor and we're living in this golden age of being able to morph yourself into whatever the you can imagine kind of thing yeah I wonder was early too with a lot of those guys that trip so much it's like I think uh at least for practical purposes is we would all like to think that you would like to have a psychedelic experience and then come back down to earth and be able to you know make use of that in the real world like it can kind of benefit you in the real world that's the idea right that's sort of the idea I mean why should we impart those standards on anybody I mean you could do whatever you want but I think some guys like Lily is probably a prime example that people use as a a point of reference went so far

18:24it's like where's the Baseline now like there's no Baseline for him anymore he was just so out there he was he was yeah and um yeah I mean I I agree with you and also I mean not to um you know use you as like uh as a great model but you're a great poster child for psychedelics as my dad was you know is you know you well into your adult life and it changed your Consciousness and you're able to apply it to your work to what you do and you know and it's become very fluid and very integrated you don't hide it you're you're public about it you can you found a way to integrate it I mean that's the idea of spiritual practice isn't it it's about integration I think it's important to not hide it and I think there's much more fear of repercussions than actual repercussions you know I think Terence McKenna had a a great saying he said too many people are doing the man's work for the

19:19man right he's like they don't really care if you're out doing mushrooms it's not what they're trying to do is they're trying to stop large scale Sal and and distribution of schedule one drugs they're not trying to stop some dude from doing mushrooms right and look what we're seeing with micro doing right now in Silicon Valley I mean more and more people are kind of coming out of the closet and you know supposedly what the names that are kind of attached to the rumor mill of who's doing micro DOI in Silicone Valley it's huge yeah I mean it's it's really it's really insane it's great it is yeah and I think as marijuana is now legal in the state and it becomes legal in more more States and hopefully one day it'll be released from the schedule one which is just so crazy that the DEA decided to they mean they got to the door this past summer they did and then they decided to pull away

20:12and just keep it at schedule one which means there's no medical benefit which is a lie well and that's especially and I'm kind of down on Obama for that as much as I parts of Obama I really do admire but that I think was an epic failure and considering you know he just pardoned what 100 58 guys most of them nonviolent drug offenders and the two are synonymous you know it's like okay you treated the symptom man that's great I'm glad you released those guys from prison and good for you but treat the disease man yeah it's like you got to treat and now as we're stepping into this this Dark Age I mean I'm calling it a Dark Age I mean that's the Trump Dark Age the Trump Dark Age you know it's not good for for for these things well I don't know if it is or it isn't but I what the problem is that when you know something like like if you and I know what's dangerous and what's

21:01not like meth it's dangerous dangerous marijuana is not dangerous so when when you look at all the facts and then you look at all the absolutely proven medical benefits and then you see that they're denying the existence of these you okay well the people that are in control of locking people up and throw them in the jail they're a bunch of liars because they're just ignoring the science they're ignoring the research and the research that's gone back to the 1970s that the Nixon Administration paid for and then ignored that's right and now I I think the the bar was even raised right CBD is even was gotten thrown into that really recently which is just a really sneaky thing because CBD much like hemp has zero psychoactive properties it's not doing anything to alter your Consciousness in terms of getting you high but it does amazing stuff for reducing inflammation for

21:50people that have arthritis it's a like a lifesaver so you know the only thing I could kind of in this thread is kind of think about and talk about is okay well what is you know what's the reason behind this I mean if you kind of isolate big Pharma and talk about that and then you know I know the CBD industry they're you know big farmers the enemy right yeah but I also have to just kind of say that big farmers's main goal is to make money you know to create products that make money it doesn't matter what the product is if they told you that you know uh plastic is going to alleviate cancer you know they would make a plastic pill but so what is who is the enemy within this that is making things like CBD and Mar like is this just kind of left over from kind of baby boom paranoia kind of narrow Consciousness that we can't possibly allow these substances to to fix us to

22:45help us I mean what is that because there's tremendous profit potential so something isn't in alignment I want to know where that that that provate can't be controlled like Viagra like it's hard it's hard to make Viagra if you and I wanted to go into the Viagra business we would have to find out what the key ingredients are we'd have to set up a plant and Manufacturing we wanted to go into CBD business we just have to grow some weed like it's not hard at all okay there's a big difference between extracting CBD or especially medical marijuana like you talks if you talk about just THC you know like cooking it down to a candy form or a pill form it's not hard at all right but I would like Glo Smith Klein you can you know put a billion dollar into making the best CBD pill and putting it on the store of every write Aid the shelf of every write Aid and kind of get the propaganda out

23:36there about you know what it can do propaganda being a good thing getting the marketing out there about all of its benefits so what is stopping that they just well they can't copyright it they can't control it's not patentable it's nature it's it would be like trying to patent oranges like you really you can't do it it's not it's not going to work people are going to be able to grow oranges right and when it comes to CBD oil anyone in this room can grow some marijuana and extract the CBD from it it's it's not incredibly difficult it doesn't require massive resources like it would if you were going to make certain types of Alzheimer's medication that would be or Parkinson's medication I could say that would be competing with the CBD oil those are very difficult to get and if you can lock down the doctors and make sure that they only prescribe these pharmaceutical drugs that you guys can

24:22profit from and you're the only ones that can make it then you've got that business locked I me there have been people that have done calculations about all of the different pharmaceutical drugs that would be useless or would be unnecessary I should say if marijuana was legal and it's pretty staggering it's a long list it's a huge list and the amount of profit that the people who make those pharmaceutical drugs would lose if marijuana became legal and people just started realizing like hey you know there's and then there other benefits like there's no drugs that are like pharmaceutical drugs that also open you up make you a nicer person make you more friendly and commun make me more contemplative of your existence sort of give you a different perspective that's almost unattainable without those pharmaceutical it's not really right it's not they don't have those

25:10additional benefits that the pot does that's true they don't which is often times why it's referred to as a war on Consciousness well it is it's got to be I mean that's absolutely what it is because it's not about drugs because there's so many drugs that are legal I mean I mean come on we cannot say there's a war in drugs when we can go buy a bottle of whisking at a prescription for oxycotton it's insane it's insane yeah in every restaurant you could buy booze pretty much every restaurant and and I mean look what the oxycoton epidemic has done to America I mean it's decimated it's created a whole generation of addicts all of a sudden you know and it's It's A Dangerous Drug so it's a it's a it's got It's A War in Consciousness yeah and it's really a war for profit for controlling the ability to profit off of people altering their Consciousness cuz people been like you

25:55said other than people that live in Frozen places where nothing grows they've been trying to alter their Consciousness forever okay but do you believe uh you I don't know what you're conspiracy level kind of meter is but do you believe that like with all of this said that there is still kind of a secret kind of conspiracy government sanctioned funnel that allows the illegal drug Market to still flourish in some way in order to keep certain you know um law enforcement law enforcement in order you know maybe skimming off the top off of piles of cocaine that are coming from Bolivia whatever the case may be I mean I don't know what a case study is but you know I mean there's still so many coming in it's it's certainly something to be considered were you are you aware of that CIA drug plane that crashed the the jet that had visited Guantanamo Bay a couple of times

26:48and it crashed in Mexico with tons of cocaine on it you never seen that Jamie see if you could pull that up CIA plane crashes in Mexico with tons of cocaine they overloaded their plane and they had so much cocaine in it that they uh they had to uh refuel and they tried to land in Mexico and Mexico's like you here it is Cia jet crashes with four tons of cocaine on board oh my God I mean what what year is this this is just last month huh a couple months ago September 16th oh I missed that one well this is a recent one but it's happened a gang of times yeah okay here it is eight years ago saying eight years ago okay okay it crashed in the middle of the Jungle in Mexico's Yucatan carrying four tons of cocaine the event in the aftermath changed forever an official Narrative of the War on Drugs that has for years been pushing the notion that there is no significant American

27:43involvement in the Global Drug trade and no American drug lords right okay well you know that do you know the Barry seals story only a little bit Yeah Barry seals who used to fly drugs into Mina Arkansas from South America you'd go down to South America fly drugs and there's photos with him with all the CIA guys and he'd be partying with Nora down in um Panama Panama and this guy was just bringing Coke into the United States and then when he was scheduled to testify they uh assassinated him in his car on the way to the court Jesus Christ he had he had George Bush's number in his phone in his pocket oh my God yeah as he was executed so the whole thing is like well story's over folks go back to sleep good night everybody you know um Johnny Carson um the Rick Ross documentary yeah I've had Rick on the podcast you have yeah twice what what a story Amazing

28:41Story man I mean that guy drug kingpin in La selling drugs essentially to fund the war with the contras in the sandinistas right and they're funneling the product yeah amazing he was you know making millions of dollars for the US government selling Coke and you know Michael rert who was a good friend of mine too who um killed himself a few years ago who had also been on the podcast a couple times Michael um was the guy that exposed that he was a Los Angeles uh detective oh wow and he was uh there's a very famous moment where Michael rert is addressing the court and he he stands up in the middle of this all this stuff and and says and exposes this whole deal he's like I have personally witnessed the CI selling drugs in in in central Los Angeles in South Central Los Angeles you ever seen that God I haven't seen that no see if you can find that Jamie because it's a

29:36crazy video to watch Michael rert uh exposes CIA selling drugs in court so why'd he kill himself he was depressed he had you know he had some pretty significant depression long time uh being on the the police force and all the the the stuff that he had to deal with and trying to expose corruption listen to this cuz Go full screen and crank up the volume has a former Los Angeles police narcotics detective that the agency has dealt drugs throughout this country for a long time this is uh allegations of CIA involvement in drug trafficking this is on C-Span and this is something completely unexpected so when he stood up in front of these people and said that to the C pulled that up again so I can see the top of it CIA director John de right obviously that is an answer for one of you now can you please I refer all right now can you please I refer direct wait wait wait wait a minute wait a

30:46minute wait a minute here wait a minute if you don't like what's going on here please leave now no no no leave no no no lead now because there are others who do want to hear what's going on in this room will you please take your seat she's ineffective is there is there another specific agency operations known asadas Pegasus and Watchtower I have Watchtower documents heavily redacted by the agency I was personally exposed to CIA operations and recruited by CIA Personnel who attempted to recruit me in the late 7s to become come involved in protecting agency drug operations in this country I have been trying to get this out for 18 years and I have the evidence my question for you is very specific sir if in the course of the ig's investigations and Fred hit's work you come across evidence of severely criminal activity let him speak and it's classified will you use that

31:48classification to hide the criminal activity or will you tell the American people the truth yeah it's pretty intense yeah and he you know he went through a lot with this and with many other things and just decided at one point in time he's suffering too much and took his own life oh man that's it's really intense and and you know I I try not to be a cynic I mean I'm you know pretty openminded you know and hopeful guy but with what we're kind of moving in towards with the next Administration I just you know about the what's going on in the Philippines with you know that drug the crazy drug policy and what Trum called him you know when he was as president-elect yeah they they spoke and he to congratulate him for winning for killing people congratulations yeah and I guess Trump said on the call like that he was congratulations on this drug policy it seems to be working oh my God

32:44yeah they're just assassinating people they just killing people he's he's talked pretty openly about it how he's just assassinating drug killing and and addicts users they're just killing drug addicts that is the that's that something that happen when you have so many people in one area I mean the Philippines is thousands of islands for people who don't know and there just jammed up with people and I think when you have a lot of crime and you have a lot of people you tend to Value those people less and it just becomes especially when you're a dictator I mean essentially that guy's a dictator yes he is I mean whether he's elected or not what he's doing is barbaric assassinating people Val value people less just based on kind of economic on class it's a kind of a class struggle a class struggle and also just the sheer volume of them they're they're not as

33:37valuable you know if there's a it's like Norway or smaller population of people I think you just value the people more I don't know why I use Norway as an example yeah but no it's it's a good I mean all the Scandinavian countries are good um did you see the house we live in what is that the documentary war and drugs documentary no I that maybe I did was that about five years ago yeah about four years ago seen so many of those things I can't remember them all anymore so many of them now um it's a really good one and it basically like it comes up the the the final hypothesis is that the War on Drugs it's a class war you know originally we thought it was a race war and that's still partially true you know that and um what's the guy um who uh the first drugs are from the uh the 40s and 50s I'm forgetting his name Adon or whatever but who um you know it was he turned marijuana hysteria into a

34:32Mexican hysteria that they were bringing it and this is in the 30s and 40s and created reer Madness then heroin was kind of pushed into the ghetto and rck Ross Harry anslinger yes thank you yeah and then crack brought into the ghetto and stuff but meth sort of becomes the exception because meth is primarily a white trailer park sort of trashy kind of thing and no how racist you I know how racist that was Politically Incorrect but but uh it's true though it's true and and and so we kind of we do have a class struggle even then that's a class issue as well I mean it just happens to be Caucasians yeah but exact poor people who really get into the meth po people disenfranchised disenfranchised unpoke unheard of you know no I think there definitely you could say that that the the War on Drugs is a class war it's all but it's also like where can they extract the money where can they get the

35:22money well the DEA has to they have to keep people employed you know and the way to keep people employed is justify their job the way they justify their job is to continue making arrests and show that you need to make arrests and so you have to have laws in place which is why you know that prison guards will will Lobby to make sure that marijuana stays illegal and other drugs are strictly inforced that the policies are strictly enforced just so they can continue keeping their jobs right yeah absolutely but when we still like what OB during the Obama Administration he did the he took the um crack cocaine versus powder cocaine you know the the discrepancies from what 20 to1 and he got it down to whatever it is 8 to1 or something it's still ridiculous it's still insane it's still insane it's the same drug it's the same drug but it's it's purely based on class and race you know yeah and and

36:09that is just I mean that I mean clearly now you know as we've seen it and as the rhetoric that's been going on the last year during the election cycle it's a much bigger problem than we thought it was I mean I always knew we always knew that this was a problem rais in class and stuff but now straight you know out in the table all the chips on black and you know everybody's you know one of the things that I feel that's troubling about this election is that a lot of racists like my friend Alonzo Bowden had a great quote he said not all Trump supporters are racists but all racists are Trump supporters that's right it's that's the like the billar quoted by Republicans what he say um not all Republicans are racists but all racists are Republicans oh that's not true though there's a lot of racist Democrats that's a bad quote but it's a terrible quote I I don't I I

37:00mean I mean maybe there was racist that voted for Hillary sure yeah yeah I know but it it's true about it's more fun than it is real you know as a quote Yeah but it's just it seems like they're out in the public now they're out in the open I mean I've seen so many videos of people that are Trump supporters that are using the fact that Trump's in office now to like to to say a bunch of real really disgusting racist to go crazy yeah and they kind of got a hall pass you know that's what that's a good way of putting it yeah I mean it was like obviously you know I know people as you do who voted for Trump sadly I do but whatever you know and not all Trump supporters are uneducated racist sort of whatever yeah some people did it for economics some people did it for the economics thing but the fact that they gave those other people hall pass to act like that and just uh just wait you know

37:57troubling really troubling well it is it's going to be interesting to see this Jeff sessions guy what he decides to do cuz the Attorney General elect that guy that's coming in is that what you say about him attorney general elect like a president call him that yes sir so he's uh he's a staunch marijuana hater he's uh he's a died in the wool marijuana is for bad people kind of guy yeah just got to get that guy High that's all we have to do I mean I know he's probably 80 but it's not too late just get him somebody get him just give him a little hit don't him up just give him a little yeah man just a little just I'm I'm with you and come on dude you'll be fine relax let's go sit in the grass look up look at the sky does it look different right the clouds you ever look at them that way that's a thin layer of gas it separates us from Infinity what's your favorite music man come on do you like

38:50Pink Floyd do you like Pink Floyd what'd you grow up on put these headphones on dude you like The Beatles I'm sure you like The Beatles right everyone does he might not he might be one of those weird um John Ashcraft guys that's really into gospel music oh yeah you remember that John Ashcraft song The flly whatever let the Eagles soar like she's never soared before I think uh he was one of the scariest guys that ever attained any sort of office or had any sort of power dude Ashcroft you remember what what state was he from Missouri maybe I think it was from Missouri I don't know he lost the election for the governorship to a dead man man did he yes that's how much people didn't like him that's a dead guy beat him and then bushes do you remember when he put General he put coverings over the naked statues yes he covered up the boobs in the in the Rotunda you know

39:42so disturbed by their nakedness well we survived that barely I mean we went to a war that's still going on because of that and the other that are in that Administration I mean that Administration was a dark dark moment of spare these uh the alleged weapons of mass destruction that never existed you know all of it and now Trump is talking to Carl Ro again oh not to Dick Cheney he's talking Dick Cheney's putting on his Darth Vader mask again yeah we should use this moment to say rest in peace Carrie Fisher yeah a that was a hard man 60 she was only 60 I know did she have a drug problem did she have an alcohol problem not current she used to was it was a pill thing I pills and Coke and but yeah she was uh I think she was sober in AA the best I understand the problem is the damage those goddamn thing that they do to your cardiovascular system oh my God yeah she so devastating no she lived

40:46hard she lived hard and I think suffered a lot of yeah physical problems as a result sad 60 oh my God and George Micha 53 that was even sadder but you got to think that he probably went out in a wave of dicks just just a tsunami of him he probably was just exhausted from orgies know somehow I just feel like he squeezed in a lot of life in 53 years I think I think he did too but I mean no pun intended or pun intend exactly yeah George yeah but with guys like that I I I often wonder you know with being a a songwriter or like a hit maker is it is it better to have had you know one hit or a few hits and then completely Fade Away not that he faded away Into Obscurity maybe he's not a good example or to not have it at all because I think George did kind of carry with him that like he was no longer current sort of thing yeah that's that weird thing where someone's not famous anymore they're

41:49kind of a joke whereas a a regular person's not a joke like here's an example like do you remember when Gary Coleman was a security guard yeah he had a he had to get a job and it was a real problem because Gary Coleman was just trying to do his job and just trying to get paid so he can eat you know he was just trying to feed himself like all the rest of us and people would come up to him and take pictures of him and mock him and they would use him as a joke but you don't use a regular security guard as a joke like if you see a regular security guard you're like what's up man how you doing yeah I'm going to go this building right here see your ID cool everything's fine you don't say ah you're a security guard look at you right but because he used to be some greater you know yeah yeah there's U poor Gary Coleman when he was a security guard yeah that's so troubling and it it

42:35kind of really plays into the whole idea of of Fame and perversion in America and the things that we hold dear the things that are valuable to us kind of the American the just disillusion of American values which I think that's the rise of trump to me it's a values thing I had a guy give me a hard time once about not about Fear Factor being canceled and he was a um a a cier at CVS he was working at CVS he's like what happened to his show and I said it was canceled he goes no more show huh like like all attitude I'm like dude shows go away yeah they they they go on and then they get cancelled he was he was like sh on me but he was like he was being aggressive about it it was like so weird I was like what a just bizarre Detachment from real you're working at CVS dude like I'm not giving you a hard time about being a CVS guy right but if if I was the guy from Fear Factor and then I was

43:30a CVS guy how bad would you on me then cuz I'm just coming in as a guy buying some cough drops that's right like what a weird thing that we have this this need to when someone attains a very high status and then falls off of that what we think you know we think they're down we want to attack it's like a an animal thing but in in your case best thing ever happened to you yeah I mean I don't think he knew you know he probably didn't know that I had a standup career that I was doing the UFC or anything he was just like oh you're losing now huh what is your show I like crazy accent all aggressive I was like all right dude yeah I like that is so it was like but it was so blatant it was confusing I was like am I being punked yeah and and and the idea of like uh uh you know winning just that idea you got to win man like win that that whatever that me that's the Trump thing

44:19that's the Trump thing that's really disturbing is that that winning thing got to win got to win and not this lack of p i mean he's 70 man there ain't a lot of time left bro I mean if you're super lucky you got 20 Summers left if you're super lucky if everything goes great and he's not that healthy I don't think he's fat he's fat his chin just has like a very SL sloping slab of skin that's Loosely attached to his neck that goes down to his collar bone he doesn't look like a healthy 70y old yeah I don't think so either Sylvester Stallone is older than him that's a good pie piece of uh yeah there you go put it in perspective or Sean coner both of them right yeah they're both older than him yeah but that whole idea it's just that destruction of sort of like the things that we have instilled as being an important like you got to have a winning temperament I'm going to make America

45:11win again why is that the most important sort of attribute for someone to attain to what does that even mean whenn and it's so attached to like a financial thing right like what kind of value system is that like there are other ways to quote unquote win it doesn't have to be t money well the problem is it becomes attractive you know when you see someone who has a slick back hair in a private jet and he takes a photo with his expensive Gucci shoes on his private jet and it's on his Instagram and then he's you know that all stuff becomes very attractive and then people aspire to that and then you know you get that Gordon gecko greed is good thing yeah yeah you're right greed is good but also like that level of aspiration first of all it's pretty much not attainable I mean well it's attainable yeah but one what to private jet r I mean that is some people can do it% of the 1% of the

46:001% I mean that level you know like the people who are following the the those people on Instagram on Instagram who have you know Instagram okay grandpa oh you kids in the Instagram on that the series of tubes it's a series of tubes God damn it right the Facebook um but I mean if you're trying you know you want to climb a mountain you want to climb Everest if you want to be the Gordon gecko guy you want a private jet and the slick back hair and the but it never ends it does never end it never ends well that's what's weird when you see the really really really rich guys who are still smashing and just every day trying to attain new and we always assume they achieve enlightenment there's like this idea that like well he's got $50 billion do why doesn't he just retire they never retire do you read Steve Jobs last words have you ever read that no what you saying you might want to bring

46:52that up Jamie it's really really cool it's like he's it's it's his last whatever I mean maybe not the last word he said to his wife or something but it's kind of his last cohesive thought was like look I'm you know many people in the world views me as completely successful and and I've achieved so much in business but you know my personal life and everything that he was lacking you know so he was just kind sort of coming clean about the imbalance of it all he was kind of coming clean about the you know the levels of discontent and the path of the heart and the path of the soul the path of the spirit because he was essentially you know a spiritual guy and you know was a meditator as practitioner of Zen and into you know nimi Baba and all sorts of things but he got just so wrapped up in this vicious sort of cycle of having to produce product product product and you know

47:42Apple essentially in in his words you know he made it into it was a product company and that's how we defined it you know and not even an idea company it was a product company and then products are based on having to have the version of the product over and over and over again and he just got wrapped up in it kind of lost his soul isn't it interesting that like Bill uh Bill Gates and Steve Jobs were like the two competitors that we always thought of and Bill Gates was thought to be the business guy who's the cold hard and he was he was in a lot of ways sure back in the day but if you look at him in his older years he became very charitable involved in a bunch of humanitarian efforts and does a lot of amazing work and is using his substantial wealth for a lot of good and doesn't work anymore he's just he's done with all that he's all just doing humanitarian work and helping people

48:33which is kind of beautiful and he became you know this different guy as he got older he became wiser and became much more involved in doing good and trying to help yes and trying to use that immense amount of money that he acquired by being a ruthless sort of business gangster but doing it for good which is kind of really fascinating that he decided hey I'm going to step back here I'm gonna set set back and think about what I'm doing and what what's really important to me in this last stage of Life yeah and that's uh you know that's Karma Yoga that's what Karma Yoga is you know about the um uh you know what a sad the path of the sadu in in India like traditionally the path of the sadu um you know kind of historically and traditionally it's um you know the sadu grows up is born in India and is raised into education and then to become a householder householder meaning getting

49:25married and has kids um Works has career provides for the kids and then in the last third of his life becomes a sadu drops all of it walks away kids are grown up out of the house kind of leaves of his wife which is kind of a bummer for her bummer for her but in kind of a concept maybe she was annoying maybe she wanted to keep purses and and he's like no we have to meditate no I'm shopping online but then he takes off and he becomes a Wandering mendicant in India and that's the path of the do it's kind of broken into different phases I don't know if that's the right way to do it either oh I don't know but it's fascinating it's an interesting it's an interesting way of of of looking at it that okay you've achieved a lot you've accumulated a lot and now I can go be of service well being of service is always a great idea um wasn't the sados are really into hash right isn't that the

50:15big thing how many chillums you can smoke it depends what uh what a lineage you belong to I've sat with with some of them in the nagab and in at the Kumba ands out with them it's wild man it is amazing how when people discuss religion if they discuss Hinduism or uh the siks or any any of the various strains of of religions that are inexorably connected psychedelics those psychedelics are rarely discussed you know I mean if you go and you read like The vimanas or read um any of the ancient Hindu texts there's so many references to Soma and so many references to what is obviously some sort of a psychoactive substance you know but when people talk about like Hinduism and that does hardly ever comes up you talk about yogis and sadus it hardly ever comes up in the modern sort of take on it because there have been uh there's kind of a Revival of within Hinduism of kind of an orthodox version

51:22of it which is you know intoxicant free and that's sort of that's kind of a modern Revival within the Hindu tradition you know so they've kind of pushed that aside but yeah I mean you know what bong is the it's the it's like a the powdery pot thing that you just kind of you know you swallow some of it yeah how does that what is that stuff made with it's um you take like the leaves and you grind up the leaves into like a fine powder then there's some kind of cooking process and then but within just the leaves like the shake all the scraps is enough and you can extract the T see in some kind of cooking process and you make it into a fine powder and just throw it down throw it down and yeah and it gets you pretty pretty toasty yeah yeah well I know that they're also into the crystals and they take the crystals and mash them up and sort of make like kind of a a hash out

52:13of uh the the the scrape from the THC crystals uh what's that what is that called I know what you're talking about yeah we both know some sort of a mushy sort of waxy type jazz they take that yeah but I mean again back to our the original you know thread of our conversation it's like every tradition has some kind of sacr a mind altering Sacrament viic text yeah all these different I mean they had look I mean they had to be they they obviously were aware of these substances if they found these substances there was no science back then there was no real understanding of what's going on in the world no real understanding of your body but there was these this act access to this stuff hey man you see those things that are growing on that cow if you take that you will meet God right and then people did it and did meet God they're like holy you're telling the truth like there is like everybody

53:09wants like if you think about religions if you think about the stories that people tell of the wise men and their you know they experience the burning bush and God gives them the Ten Commandments and all these different things that happen they're all like these sort of beautiful stories but your everyday life experience is so flat and boring and then you do take these things you go well this is just going to be just like everything else just flat and boring and and you take take those mushrooms that you pluck off that cow and all a sudden it's exposed to you in some Grand way and then your whole life becomes about worshiping that I mean that's McKenna always argued that um the all the ancient cattle worshipping um religions and cattle worshipping civilizations like Chu tall H and all these really old old cultures that that's what it was all about that these

54:09people had found out that cows grow mushrooms on their and that they they weren't able to differentiate between the they thought it was coming out of the cow's body that the cow would it out and they didn't understand spores so they thought it was inside the cow and it would grow in the shed and that was your your portal to God wow wow you rarely hear that discussed I mean you always hear it discussed in terms of like an agricultural resource that that's why they worship the cows you know that that just makes me think it goes back to that you know and I'm someone of a very spiritual person and have a practice and all that kind of stuff but like that just brings up the question to me is like did we invent God as a result of those experiences kind of like this is a good Chris Ryan thing if he was here you know kind of like in the hunter gatherer kind of tribal you know

54:56when we were just starting starting to learn to depict our experiences and talk about our experiences and creating like an oral history and sort of like the first kind of existential dilemmas and which many say came from you know psychedelic awareness from back in those days so is that what led to the creation of God and you know and to me it doesn't make a difference being a believer of God I I don't really care if it's real or myth or not it just it works for me but it does Bank it almost doesn't matter matter it doesn't matter if it benefits you to believe in it it benefits you people ask me that all the time like oh my God you actually believe in flying monkeys and a blue guy playing a flute in the fields I've seen flying monkeys those people don't know those people talking I've seen Jokers giving me the finger they're spinning in geometric patterns that were infinite I've seen a

55:49lot of that's way more ridiculous than a guy with a harp and not only have you seen it and have I seen it but I can tell everybody listening hard to see it to yeah they could see you can see it if you have the courage and the substances you can see it yes you can and it works on everybody except I think DMT apparently doesn't work on everybody there's like one out of a thousand where it like literally doesn't do Jamie Jamie doesn't get high off of Edibles this fre freak over here he give Jamie like a super powerful edible it barely does a goddamn thing to him yeah it took like 1,200 milligrams before a concert and drove home two hours later Jesus man Jesus cuz the Edibles today in my he's a freak it's a goddamn alien working the controls over there I mean for the first time in my life I feel like kind of finally like an old hippie like oh my God the Edibles when I was a kid not

56:41like that today man no that shit's insane these things this is a Jambo spray I took 10 hits of this before maybe 12 I forget for a Sam Harris podcast I was I was like I was skiing downhill Hill yeah straight with I wasn't crashing but I was figuring out how to barely stay up the entire conversation I'm like what in the have I done like I was so high it was probably as high as I've ever been in my life was that the last samaris podcast long Sam is a perfect guy to be that baked with CU all you have to do is just wind him up and say something and he's so eloquent that he can just continue to go on these amazing as long as you can just keep up with what he's saying so you have like good questions he is but I and I it's all due respect to Sam and I do think he is smarter than me in terms of IQ but I do think he uses that intelligence to kind of kind of shuck

57:35and driive you a little bit shuck and drive how so well I'm not like I mean he's so smart and so articulate and obviously brilliant um and I have mad respect for him but I just don't think he's right about what well let's take Islam for example I mean there's just so many things but I mean um Islam and is sort of like the the the right to sort of like prepare for violence um and kind of self-defense I I don't really agree with that philosophy um and I just I don't agree with it because I think if you it just invites the Consciousness into your head to where you are going to have to use it um you know that's interesting like like the idea that self-defense and preparing for something sets up the stage to make something happen different than say getting in the in the octagon and the MMA stuff and you know well that's more a competition but you think like maybe a

58:31guy walks around with like a gun and a knife and proest I think it invites the Consciousness into into into the atmosphere and and it creates the energetic cycle of having to use that and then Sam kind of throws out those statistics that well it's about the same odds as having a car crash as as you are going to experience some kind of act of violence in your life where you will need to learn how to I don't know do something self-defend yourself and I just I don't maybe you can throw out that math to me and I think it depends on on certain socioeconomic conditions but I just don't think that's true I just don't want that Consciousness in my life and I don't think we should we need to dissolve that Consciousness in well I certainly think you're free to not have those thoughts in your head and to choose to take the path of love and acceptance and just passivity and move

59:23through this life but the reality of human beings is like I've been unfortunately watching some videos online I watched this video today of a guy kicking some lady down the stairs for no reason he was behind her and they're looking out for they're trying to find him in the UK they've got photos of him but he just she was walking in front of him uh don't go on the stairs and he walked up behind her and just just a random person kicked her down this flight of stairs and she's horribly injured and uh I I've seen a bunch of those and things do happen you can run into the people yes they do they do have you um you know Steven Pinker Angels right you know we are yes those things happen and look around the world today and flip on the news and it's highly disturbing but we are living in the most peaceful time amazing of of our of our existence you know if you were a a

60:1330-year-old man in the year 1500 your most the the highest cause of death was not disease or infection it was an act of violence right you were going to be raping and pillaging and you just had to defend your food supply for crying along and we have come to some kind of understanding some kind of collective Consciousness that has morphed itself together in the form of cooperation we have to sh and there's so many of us now and it's getting more of us the pen it's getting smaller we have to cooperate I agree with you but what do you do with those guys that kick women down flights of stairs like that um you I mean I guess there is some sort of form of um you you know I guess punishment and we do have a we live in a society where Law and Order is maybe a necessary evil and I I you know and i' sure there's some kind of like incarceration But ultimately you know you got to love

61:09them you got to have compassion for them and you've got to just teach them with compassion that their action was wrong don't kick the lady down the stairs man here's why you shouldn't do that and I love you and it's going to be okay people right now are up in arms they want to kick your ass cool there's a bunch of people right now in Nebraska they like hippie Tim L L's kid that's kick his ass kick his ass C bass but you know and on a on a different you know it's a beautiful thought it is it's G there is there's some people that you can run into though unfortunately you're better off it's like that expression about having a gun you're better off having it not needing it then needing it and not having it yeah I don't I don't agree so I get it I get it and I I understand the argument you know about that guy who was uh was it in um I think it was in Minnesota he was running around stabbing

62:04people and then some guy who was a concealed carry permit holder uh pulled out his gun shot the guy and killed him and it was uh one of those things that people point to like hey this guy was a competition shooter concealed carry per and he saved people's lives because this guy was killing a bunch of people yeah but those case studies compared to the case studies that go wrong I I don't know what they are I don't have the metrics but I bet they're what 10 to one 20 to one sure because it's it's way easier to get a gun just to just to go and get a gun that it is to become a competitive shooter like who what that guy was was the rarest of the rare someone's not just competent with a firearm but an expert level here he is man who shot Crossroads Mall terrorist is US PSA competitor three gun shooter yeah so this guy is just a badass gun carrier and and that's fine but that is

62:54the rarest except right I'm positive of it right but it is real right sure so can it can happen so he was right so his thought was one day if I am carrying a gun I'll be able to save people's lives that's that's that's fine and I and protect myself okay I get that but the hundreds of others that go along that are just somehow there's there's so many loopholes in the system of crazy people who get guns and go to Sandy Hook and it's it's it's well that's a terrible example it's just it's not worth it are illegally acquired guns that's a gun that was acquired by a person who was mentally ill and his parents didn't protect the guns yeah that's that's a different story but yeah you're right you know I just think that the the risk versus reward it's just it's just far too unbalanced well it's definitely it the ability to just shoot someone and kill someone by pulling that little tiny

63:46muscle on your finger is kind of crazy I mean it's the the the amount of power that you have in doing so it's it's a glitch in The Matrix I mean I hate using Matrix Oles but it is it's a glitch in The Matrix Man and it just it plays into kind of every fallacy of The Human Condition you know and it's it's like why H how did we let that happen how did we make it so easy to take someone else's life so what do you if say if I make Zack ly the president of the United States does the does Zack ly say no more military does Zach ly say police officers can't have guns we all need love everybody gets their guns taken away like what do you how do you deal with everything yeah I mean I mean and it's not something that you can just yeah it's not something you can just do overnight I'm not I'm not you know naive enough or you know stoned enough or meditate enough to think that

64:36that is maybe we should get high maybe rethink it about in a different way and there and there are already 300 million guns in America I think there's more I think there are more guns in America than there are human beings and here's what's crazy it's not like we're like well we're good no we're making guns like crazy people are as we're sitting here they chunk chunk chunk machines are turning out guns but yes if Zach becomes president I know it's highly unpopular and people will get pissed at me but we we stop the sale of all and unless you have very specific kind of UK style hunting exceptions do you eat meat I do you do I do I I didn't for a while but I do again why did you start again um I got sick um not from not eating meat I just um I I got this terrible flu and it was just really really sick and just like you know not a cold I mean it was like ah

65:31terrible flu and all I could think about was I wanted a turkey sandwich W going to make feel turkeys huh I was like it and I had a turkey sandwich and and I felt better and I never went back wow eat everything Burgers everything the whole deal yeah I kind of do do you eat factory farmed food I really really really really try not to but you do I do I mean I can't say that I don't but I don't I mean in the most dire emergency like if you're super hungry if I'm super hungry you know what I do s like you're dying you know what I do is um and I have to it's kind of a a a loose in the airport I up in the airport airport yeah I'm in the airport and I'm just like I'm whatever I always get to the airport way too early because I just I like being in the airport early I like to be in that it's like a neutral zone between there and here and just I love it I love hanging out the airport

66:25and I get there I'm hungry and I'm just I give in I'm like man that I used to up at the airport all the time with blueberry muffins and chocolate croissants that was my yeah I'm I'm a sucker for the Egg McMuffin those are good sadly those are good they taste good it's not the worst thing in the world for you quite honestly for the the ham definitely factory farm yeah it's not the worst thing in the world for you but McDonald's is yeah is the devil but what am I going to do well it's I I do the best I can I really yeah it's a weird world well a lot of vegans would disagree with that they would say well you're definitely not doing the best you can if you're out there eating egg MC muffins that's true that's not the best you can that's true fair fair enough oh God no me vegans and I argue a lot do they do you yeah I argue vegans a lot on the on the the social media um well yeah and and and

67:17it's weird because you're kind of philosophically I'm on their side I'm I'm with you philosophically but not in practice I I just I doesn't feel I'm not quite ready for that and I have to admit I'm just not you know I am where I am but what I argue with him about is um and it's a it's a constant social media argument is that we are omnivores we are yeah we definitely are omnivores we eat what's around us yeah we always have there's a way that you can eat cruelty-free meat but there's not a way there's not a way where you could have crueltyfree mass consumption the the real problem is cities like no you know you unless you have a co-op where you guys are growing what was the second part sorry I didn't I didn't understand it's not you can eat crueltyfree but you can't what in a mass consumption like environment like 7 million people living in Manhattan like

68:07good luck getting cruelty-free meat to all seven million people cowspiracy inside that area yeah you know it's just you have to bring it I mean what we've done over the last 150 years is move completely away from agriculture in in these cities and and drive things in in trucks have you ever seen some of the old models of what they were the way when they were planning cities like in the early 1800s when they were designing New York and a couple other cities they had set up areas for agriculture areas for you know livestock and they had them in cities and so they they didn't have this notion that we have now that everything would be driven in in trucks because they didn't have trucks so when they had TR you know when they had cities in the 1700s and and later there there was no way to get all that food to millions and millions of people so they literally had to grow stuff in cities

69:00which is a way better way to do it yeah and you know Michael pollen if you read any of his stuff you know yeah yeah um he's just he's great um he's also getting into psychedelics now which is pretty cool but just recently yeah yeah he's doing some really interesting who a wonderful person who popped him into the Matrix I don't know but I'm in I'm in touch with him and going to do a podcast with him we'll figure it out but um yeah I mean his whole kind of you know in the omn force dilemma some of those other books like the the biggest problem with our food supply is that we have lost our connection to how food got there up until 100 100 maybe 12 at the turn of the century the 19th and 20th Century everybody had a relationship with their food they knew you went to the produce person it didn't come from a shelf in a box right you know you had you knew where it was sourc and you it was kind

69:51and if you ate meat you kind of you saw the bloodiness and you just saw like even if you didn't kill it and Slaughter it and butcher it you you knew you know it wasn't this prepackaged thing that just comes from Magic the bacon fairy you know right and that that's our problem right food comes from a shelf nobody understands I think there's a giant disconnect with and it's it's so many people the problem is like it used to be that a few people were disconnected and most people were connected and now it's completely turned on its head and when you have 20 million people in Los Angeles and what percentage of the 20 million people in Los Angeles are acquire their own food from either growing plants or hunting their food almost none like 0.111 whatever kind of crazy when you consider that it's an essential part of being a person is consuming food but there's

70:40there's also this beautiful feeling that you get and and this is vegans have this feeling as well when you grow your own food and you grow like food in a garden and you pick your salad and you cut up your cucumbers like this all came from the ground right out there but there was a really interesting article that was written by a vegan um that was essentially saying there are no vegetarians and that the only way is like it is actually impossible to be a vegetarian not not meaning that it's impossible for you to live and eat vegetables but those vegetables need dead animals in order to be alive and that animals are consumed by plants and that is what fertilizer is all about and whether or not it's I thought fertilizer was just the poop no no no there's a lot of it is actually decaying matter and in order to be healthy in particular like what we're doing most of you know about

71:35Fritz hober do you know what the hobber method is I don't know in uh during World War I there was this uh German scientist named Fritz hobber and he came up with the hobber method of extracting nitrogen from the air most people think of the air as being oxygen right air is 78% I think nitrogen right and you can extract that nitrogen from the air and use it as fertilizer and so because of Fritz hobber they have been able to extract this nitrogen and use it to fertilize plants because before they' use like emulsified fish and you know and fish was like a big one like dead fish and fish bones and things along those lines because that is when it decays and breaks down that is the food for these plants okay so what with a vegan would the vegans oppose this in the sense that like I don't think they're opposing it they're not okay no it's just I think it's just what he wrote it

72:32he the guy who wrote it was a vegan but essentially he was saying that there's this massive cycle of life and even pointed to Michael pollen's work um because pollen has written um about the emerging science of sentient plant life and that he believes that what's going on with plants is very similar to what's going on with like May be our understanding of a lot of different things it's like as our uh understanding expands we have to sort of reclassify what we think those things are like for the longest time they thought that fish couldn't feel pain right and that was oh don't worry about it fish can't feel pain and now they're saying well we're pretty sure they can yeah yeah we we we have a different understanding of what pain is to them it might be a different sensation but there's very clearly some uh alarms that are going off there's very clear clearly some sort of a

73:26reaction that same can be pointed out for plants like plants not only do they have a reaction but plants when you play the sound of caterpillars chewing leaves certain plants like the acacia tree um has the ability when it hears leaves being chewed it changes the taste of the leaves it extracts some sort of a chemical wow and that U that chemical um does something to the taste of plants that makes them so inedible that some animals have starve to death because upwind there were animals that were chewing plants that sound came downwind through either smell or some some sort of a communication thing that's going on with the melium and with the the the root structure and the plants down wind had changed their taste and the Animals wouldn't eat them anymore and they were starving wow that's far out man that just kind of makes me think like what's going to be the next sort of like vegan

74:22movement maybe some kind of iasa cere in the middle of like a of a garden or like an agricultural thing where we're just we're listening for the and trying to make you know it's we peace because we have to make peace with that everything needs everything else in order to to make it that's I think it's a like a suffering and uh a respect thing right and then then you also have to consider if plants are sentient life forms how up is it to have these gigantic large scale agriculture setups where you you are completely unnaturally changing the landscape in order to grow corn or in order to grow lettuce or strawberries like that is not normal like it's not normal to have 7,000 acres of corn right like and just corn all in a neat row that you could see from space and it's and it's destroying the soil too yeah it's completely destroying the soil but like with this idea of like having you

75:20said respect and and and pain kind of getting into that idea like do you think um and I'm my opinion is results May Vary and I'm not so sure but if everybody had the data and saw the data about factory farming for instance that they would change and thus act accordingly and not eat that anymore definitely not everybody some people don't give a I I think some people just don't give a and those Gordon gecko type dudes the slick back hair that are like it I'm here to win give me that burger CHP CHP chump CHP CHP well I mean I've thought about myself I mean I've seen every one of those movies I've read every book you know and I I'll have an i EG my muffin from time to time and I'm like what is wrong with me like is there something on my sociopath just easy to do cuz it's easy to do if if somebody said oh you're hungry why don't you shoot that pig in the head and uh cut off a leg and throw

76:12it on the smoker well then you would have a real issue be like I don't want to do that oh okay well why don't you pull those beats out of the ground well if you put on these headphones you can hear the beat scream for their parents like a oh yeah I mean I don't know I don't know I don't think anybody knows but I think there's just something about plausible deniability that's kind of hardwired into us in all aspects of our life not just food but war and politics and what money and greed and oil and everything that's what it takes to get oil to this damn country and everything that goes on to fill up our car you know I mean oh my God plausible deniability is definitely a way to look at it the extreme ability to detach ourselves from the consequences of our actions you know because it's convenient in the moment that's right yeah and convenient in the moment to just buy

76:57that quarter pound or cheese not think about it that it's a ground animal Burger you know that's right yeah and I you know and you know it's only going to cost me two bucks yeah and you get it like that which is kind of crazy I mean right it really is amazing if it wasn't connected to such horrific crimes against nature it's amazing oh it's amazing that you could just go so I mean what a incredible system they've developed and and outside of food just what you know the the economic factors for how convenience equals pleasure equals like an economic value that is usually low how that has all sort of worked together to kind of create this this system that we're living in now and we have this again this plausible D deniability kind of hardwired thing to ignore it like Walmart's a great example I mean you know the the sort of this disenfranchised middle of the country

77:48you know and they did lose their jobs and that area of the of the country is decimated but they all shop up at Walmart and that's the that's that's part of what the problem part of what the problem is but it's cheap it's convenient you're still going and it's like well what's it going to be you know pick a horse hard what's interesting is that this is all really recent right I mean this is all from the Industrial Revolution on this is all this last couple of hundred years of of civilization where we've sort of entered into this wage existence you know where people are living this way and buying this horrible Factory produced food and even more um recent that I mean yes it's all can be traced back to post-industrial Revolution stuff but even just like the massive hyper consumerism that's only like really taken off since the mid90s yeah yeah there's a cool little movie out called

78:45the minimalists I mean after a while I I kind of uh you know I got it and I didn't finish the whole thing but the first hour is fascinating it's about these guys they wrote a book called the minimalists and about um you know they were all kind of corporate ladder kind of American successful guys and just consuming consuming buying and buying and buying then all of a sudden they just kind of had the kind of big kind of cliche Awakening like oh my God maybe I don't need all this but the data that they present from what's happened in the mid90s on sort of as a result of of the internet boom with instant gratification oneclick shopping and disassociation of just the accumulation of stuff and we live in um you know we live even bigger houses now than we've ever lived square footage wise they've never been so big before and yet um you know they've put all

79:32these heat maps on uh they did the study where they put heat maps on these homes to see where people were living in the homes hanging out and like the average family in like their huge kind of MC Mansion or something only uses like 40% of the house yeah that makes sense and also has a self- storage unit to go with it somewhere else you know it's just this this endless kind of relationship we have with it so I watched hoarders the other night oh my and there was some dude bought two houses next to his house cuz he had so much my and he had to move the to other houses I was like it was crazy hoarders is gnarly oh but this is a weird hoarder because it was a guy who had some money yeah he bought two houses yeah it wasn't like a hoarder like some poor person that was going to yard sales and buying used clothes and then putting them in bags in their house and stacking them up the

80:22ceiling with newspapers and stuff this was a guy who had these Collectibles and uh he was a neurosurgeon which is really really interesting yeah he lives in Vegas and he wanted to be known for his collection he had crazy stuff like he had um yeah what's he into he has a lot of space memorabilia like he had a uh a scale model of one of the challengers uh or one of the space shuttles rather he had um one of the test lunar modules uh that uh Buzz Aldren and Neil Armstrong apparent had used in testing and in in preparation for the Apollo missions and he had a bunch of crazy all over his house but he had three houses fill of this stuff the courtyards and all around his pool was stacked up with oh man that's so insane it's just you know escapism this need to sort of like pacify our existence here I just you know as we kind of evolve and kind of grow into the future it just seems like

81:23so few people can truly be comfortable in their own skin and just be and be present and be comfortable and content content like we're constantly inventing new ways to escape to disassociate to take get out of the moment what do you think that is what do you think is so compelling to us about the constant accumulation of material possessions and this whole greed is good sort of mentality and moving up the corporate ladder without any sort of appreciation or Acceptance in the fact that we're these finite life forms clinging to a spinning orb hurling through Infinity all those inevitable and inescapable realities I mean we we we look at them every day we look up I mean that is undeniable that you are looking up as you leave your house and get to your car you have Infinity above your head you do and you don't look at it I mean what what's going on with us I think

82:19um you were born this this thing that we've kind of created this construct that we call Society we're automatically born into a bad hand and I think it's it's completely bogus you're dealt a bad hand at Birth it doesn't even matter if you're born into privilege I mean sure that's great if you're born into privilege versus the slums of Mumbai that's definitely better yeah that's definitely better I mean of course I'm not going to if you're balling in Beverly Hills I'm not it's way better than Liberia yeah I mean or Syria got B convertible dude you're doing way better than someone in zier with no feet m no no question but like you know you're dealt this bad hand of like you know being alive is hard right you know you you're you're born you're going to go into this building from ages what when do you go to school ages four is that about right some people go to preschool

83:11at 4 kindergarten is five first grade six from 4 to 18 you're going to go into this big cement building to be taught these certain subjects in this certain order then you're going to leave that cement building go to another one that's even more expensive and then you're going to leave that and you're going to get some kind of employment thing which exists pretty much from 9 to 5 for most people unless you're fortunate or clever enough to kind of exist outside of that framework and create your own reality but most people are going to work some kind of structured life and I just I think it's hard I think it's just hard to be alive it definitely is well it's not harder than it's ever been it's easier than it's ever been right I mean it's it's more safe than it's ever ever been safer more access to information than ever before yes but you know why I think it is in some aspects it's harder

84:02because um well I yeah I don't know if if that's true because back in olden times you did have to uh you know kind of compete against each other for survival but I think it could be argued that it's harder because this constant sort of you know onslaught of media and comparing ourselves to each other and to feel insecure if you don't look like that if you don't look like this if you don't have that something's wrong with you if you can't afford to buy that you're not doing well you're up man if you can't afford to buy that or if you don't look like that oh my God I'm sorry nobody's ever going to want to you that's really sad no one's going to want to you if you don't have the stuff that's awful you have to have all the stuff you got to have all the stuff and it's a terrible thing to to say to teach our children you know well so I think it's hard to be alive it

84:48is in a sense it's very tricky and it's also I think we are being raised by babies we I really do think that what you mean well I have children and I kind of I kind of get it now in a sense that before I had children I used to think of people as being sort of static obviously I was younger and when you especially when you're real young when you're like 20 or something like that you don't really take into consideration that the people around you used to be your age you kind of know it in an abstract sort of a sense but once you actually have a baby and then like 5 years later the baby's talking to you and you're having conversations you're like oh you're learning now and then 10 years later the baby's in high school and you're like oh Jesus Christ you're almost a man and then well you realize that oh we are all babies who had babies and you raise those babies and then they

85:37become adults and have babies of their own but no there are no grown-ups it's it doesn't exist like when you're a kid and you're sad you go oh one day I'm going to be a grownup and all this is going to make sense but it never that day never comes you you get older but you're a baby still you're just an old baby you're an old baby with a car and credit card debt and then you have a baby and then that baby grows up well I'm smarter than my dad he's a idiot and he's like you know that dad my dad didn't know he didn't even have the internet that's so funny and you know I think that's a and I'm not the first to say it but that's such a a huge thing with Trump he he acts like a seven-year-old yeah it's like what does a seven-year-old do like you get your mug Rogan you know you write your name all over everything that's so true that's so true he puts his name on everything he's probably got it

86:29on his socks and his underwear on the band it probably says Trump oh my God right my trump underwear have you ever stay at a Trump Hotel yes yeah I I did in New York and you know that um the the toilet paper um like the little sticker they put on it that's in Trump insign on the damn toilet Pap right but it is called the Trump Hotel I mean if you go to the Renaissance it says Renaissance but I it's it's much more ironic though with the Trump thingd because it's a guy name who's alive and now happens to be president well and and he says it's about it's a symbol of quality around the world or whatever that you see that but trump card trump card but I think it's I think he's just a seven-year-old who likes to write his name on all this well the evidence in is and how he tweets to people you know and he gets mad and tweets about and responds to people and argues with people I mean you tweet

87:17on him no no I don't tweeted I hardly tweeted anybody you don't get into that I def I don't want I definitely don't get into like those kind of tweet battles the internet but I just think as I've gotten older and had some good experiences and bad experiences online yeah I've realized that you can like you were talking about like you go out and you seek bad things if you have this in your mind that you're going to go out and you're going to be attacked so I'm going to wear a gun I'm going to have a knife and I'm going to wear a bulletproof vest and all these different things yep you can also seek negative interaction online you can go look for it when you find it you could react to it and that begets more of it and I think that you're far better off just choosing the people that you interact with in actual real life and then when I look at things online I'm just observing I I very rarely

88:11interact if I do it's very friendly and I I I limit myself almost entirely to Friendly interactions cool and anything that's negative I just you stay away it's not worth it there's nothing to be gained if you if you if you get an insult war with somebody and you make them feel bad like do you what do you get out of that unless it's funny what do you get out of that unless it's tongue and cheek and everybody's having a good time yeah well and and also you know what you can do in 140 characters is absolutely ridiculous it's insane you can't get into a meaningful thoughtful debate in 140 characters no but people seek it out they they seek these debates out and they ask you like what they think are hard-hitting questions like go yourself not get involved in this 140 character thing it's like it's silly just I the reason I I asked because um you know Duncan's starting to kind of

88:57tweet it tweet at Trump a little bit and I just does he what does he say just kind of wacky like tweets at him I'm going to be the the minister of you know whatever you got know we got we got to find some of them they're they're kind of funny but because I think Trump sometimes he does read his his tweet reads his tweet he's reading his tweets he reads his tweets yeah he gets in there I guarantee he gets in there you ever see the the debate that he had back and forth with John Stewart oh yeah of course I mean that was hilarious and John Stewart has put it into his act now so funny he tweets him at 1:30 in the morning little John Stewart is a and would be hopeless in a debate with me like can you imagine that he actually did that this is the guy that's the president now God so so great yeah but I mean it says so much about the personality of someone and I'm I I don't

89:44get in Twitter wordss because I I don't really tweet all that much but I get in Facebook words do you face I do and I'm just uh horribly impulsive about it horribly impulsive to a false like what kind of stuff do you get invol you were saying you have issues with vegans is that where you get into it yeah I mean there's there's some vegan stuff I mean a lot of politics stuff I mean over the election cycle and and I'm um you know a little quick on the trigger to like because you know with online so and social media it's just you push a button and like you know calling people morons and stuff all that just far too quickly before taking a breath stepping back and go maybe I shouldn't call you a that's probably not the best debate tactic well there's no benefit in it you don't even if you make them feel bad that they and you get your rocks off in some way and I've done it I

90:27absolutely have done it in the past but I don't I try very hard not to engage in that kind of thinking anymore because I don't think all it does it also when you get into conflicts with people negative conflicts create these uh centers of attention and those conflicts become these centers of attention and ultimately nothing happens in them they just sort of distract you like a little Vortex of and I think and as I've gone older and started analyzing my own life and and happiness and productivity and when I'm my most creative is when I'm not engaging in any of that like the least I am involved in the negativity and conflicts and debates and going back and forth and trying to make people feel bad and all that stupid that people get wrapped up in you idiot you know all that kind of stupid stuff the more the leas I do that the more it frees up my resources and it

91:20frees up my mind and I don't have this like I think anytime you get in conf cont conflict with someone it creates like this negative Center this like like this this Vortex this like weird area in your mind in your Consciousness where that conflict exists it's on a shelf just stinking up the joint and I think the least amount of those that you have in your Consciousness in your library of of memories the better off you are yeah I tend to I tend to agree with that and I tend to feel that like you know especially and it's for somebody of kind of my cloth it's hyper hypocritical to you know attack somebody online you know over their political beliefs for sure um you know being a spiritual person but um you know at the same time like especially now within the last year this is a highly charged debate cycle and I was you know convinced that you know how how Poss How

92:17could a cognitively kind of adept human being justify voting for Donald Trump like it just didn't make sense to me how could one vote justify voting for Hillary either oh I can make that can you absolutely don't you think that there's a lot of issues involved with Hillary Clinton first of all Hillary said in the Wikileaks um documents that she was against marijuana legalization legalization in every sense of the word I I'm I'm not you know Foundation I mean there's a lot of things you could bring up right I'm not a a Clinton flag waving kind of guy but you know comparing the two you know and and like however you look like so to me Hillary Clinton was just status quo right but isn't the status quo up and but the status quo is better than negative right this is going to be negative progress and this is negative how certain are you that it's going to be negative progress absolutely

93:18certain I mean the Supreme Court alone I mean you know Ginsburg made the Fatal flaw of not retiring sooner so I mean she's what 180 years old so there's dare there's already one vacancy right there what if she's on her viance man she's not going to make it and you know so Trump in one term could presumably have three appointees right and that is negative progress but you know that he was a Democrat for almost all his I know but he not now man I mean look Steve Bannon and the the CEO of Exxon the CEO of Carl Jr um uh Ben Carson and being the HUD guy what is I mean it's it's just it's absolute Insanity yeah why didn't he make Ben car Carson the attorney general or rather the uh the Surgeon General Surgeon General I mean why wouldn't he have him involved in something medical I mean he's very talented neuros because he was the African-American guy who would grew up

94:13in the projects man so he should run HUD oh how odd that was the argument oh okay yeah that that was it seems like he knows more about medicine right F's a doctor you would think you he's a medical expert right and he's actually good at that yeah he's amazing at it I mean he's like one of the top neurosurgeons in the world right so he grew up from the projects African-American guy grew up out of there so he must know about Housing and Urban Development so it's ju it's just complete Insanity to me and it is taking two three steps backwards the only Silver Lining that you can weave from it and it is you know it's a good thing to weave is that there is kind of a collective uh consolidation of solidarity kind of like hey you know we need to rise up get our together figure out how to articulate the opposite vision and perhaps defeat this later on down the line and that's cool

95:08people are waking up and there's great conversations happening well I think there's an EB and flow that always exists in cultures you know there's a push left and a push right and we try this for eight years and then we go that way for eight years and some of it's productive and some of it it's very negative but even the negative ultimately it it it Fosters resistance and that resistance is often times positive and that in even in resistance there's a lot of understanding the consequences of negativity that maybe wasn't really appreciated while you had like a progressive Democrat in office but then there's you know there's things that Obama did that people are incredibly upset with in terms of whistleblowing you know like whistleblowers were supposed to be like cherished and he was going to help I mean that was a part of the hope and change website when he was running for

95:56president yes it was and then of course he's been one of the worst people in terms of freedom of press in terms of uh whistleblowers he been one of the worst administrations ever guantan never closed drones yeah drone kill drone Wars yeah all this stuff there's there's absolutely no there's there's no doubt about it um but you know with sort of you know the es and flows of progress versus no progress you know and in in this instance in this context it's just how many people are going to get hurt as a result of it that's like that's what I don't like that's why it's not working the lack of perspective that I think we have collectively as a culture the lack of I mean what you were talking about about these people living their lives solely intent on acquiring material possessions and status and all the nonsense that goes with it how much of that can be attributed to the relative

96:49lack of exposure to psychedelics collectively that we have if if you looked at if you looked at the entire 300 million you know how they do that red map and you see how many people are Republicans and how many people are Democrats and it looks like uh looks like the whole country it looks like one of the Avatar people got hit by a train that's what it looks like right they got splattered but when you when you look at that if you had a similar map in terms of like how many people have had what I would consider a breakthrough psychedelic experience I know some people that have done mushrooms and they did a little bit and they felt good and no big deal and I I had done quite a few things before my first real DMT trip and the first real real DMT trip was like okay everything else is like this awesome this is is so awesome and so mindblowing and just knowing that

97:40that's a a real place that anyone can get to relatively easy not only that this is not a precious material this is a material that exists in thousands of different plants all over you everywhere you go like every drive down the street you'll find a hundred different kinds of plants that have DNT in it well so the DMT experience to me was a I would say like I I'm really like two different people I'm the pre- DMT person and the post DMT person I'm like I mean I'm real similar I talk the same but the the person the experiences they're so vastly different that the I was exposed to a whole new infinite area of the spectrum that I didn't know existed before I I existed in this very small area I thought there was like birth and death and love and sex and beer and you know movies and what all the other things you enjoyed right I didn't even know that was real how many people out there are

98:39like that I mean is there a million of us I mean is there even is there even two million I mean how many people out of the 300 whatever million people in this country have had breakthrough psychedelic experiences how many people did they say did LSD in the 60s it's a good question that changed the culture yeah I I don't know what the number is but I mean too bad your dad's not around he probably tell us he probably tell us yeah he was probably responsible for 40 or 50% of right but what was number it was yeah and this is to me this is a fascinating case study for us to look at is you know in the 60s you know millions and millions and millions of people did some kind of psychedelic right and if they didn't do a psychedelic at least they you know smoked grass and put on Sergeant Peppers at the very least and yeah great things were born out of that I mean an argument could be made

99:27that if the 60s didn't happen and flourish and become what it became that you and I wouldn't be sitting here right now being able to talk about what we're talking about I think that's a very good argument I think yeah right but here we are 2016 and Donald Trump is elected president so last time we had a global kind of Consciousness shift that was massive and you know really shook us all up you know I don't know not enough happened so it's like what's it going to take next time okay so let's let's get you know let's just say let's get 10% of the country to turn on and for me I kind of I'm a little bit more elastic with it and I think that can also be you know meditation sure or or flation flation tense yeah I'm not so holotropic breathing whatever and the method isn't as important to me anymore but like like get 10 to 20% of the people to do that six three six million

100:21people whatever it is you know then and you know what what is it going to change how are we going to integrate and we were talking about this a couple hours ago it's like the integration part and I think perhaps that's what we lost in the 60s we were so hung up on the veil getting pierced and you my dad's one of his best quotes is um in order to understand the 60s you must understand the 50s right what a change I mean the 50s were just you know very lock and step and white picket fence 2.5 children car you know Su tie hair short like there was no variation and we burst that bubble but you know the integration level it just wasn't wasn't media enough you know we still we elected Richard Nixon in 1968 I mean granted Robert Kennedy was shot but still you know and here we are 50 years later and and look what we're doing so you know it is great to turn on and I love people turning on

101:16and I think it's fantastic and it's a great thing to talk about like you are and it's you know you have a huge megaphone in getting people to do that but what are they going to do different that's what I'm more concerned with they're going to consider their life in a different way and I think that that in many people maybe maybe not in all of us but in many people that changes the direction of the path that you're on it changes the way you communicate with people changes your understanding of each other and your understanding of the the connections that we have with each other yes um and I think there's a giant chunk of people that are what you would call uh influencers in this country whether it's um politicians or you know CEOs of large corporations podcasters well I mean I was going to say people that haven't had this experience okay yeah these these influencers that live

102:08and there a very flat plane of existence of acquiring material possessions getting your dick sucked doing a line of coke driving in your limo all the different that a lot of people like look forward to that like ultimately might not really be important yeah or important it might feel important in the moment you know in this ego gratification sort of a way but without that ego obliterating experience to put it all into perspective you might not understand that that state of mind is even achievable like the undeniable ego shattering experience of like a severe mushroom trip or a DMT trip or you know any anything along those lines is so beneficial in that it gives you that momentary break from the ego and from this the momentum of the the race that you might not really want to be in you know I mean there's a lot of people that are doing things they hate all day long just in order to acquire

103:03that they don't really need yeah man and that's what I was like the point I was trying to make earlier is like this hand that you're dealt is bunk because you're like so many people are trapped in that thing of like doing something they hate right but do they have to be like it sounds like think they they have to be they think they have to be that's what I'm talking about they think they have to be but no they don't they can break free they can Pierce the Veil they can go on a DMT trip or get in a flotation tank and break free and you have even just by quitting some shitty job and doing something you love okay but why don't more people do that cuz they're scared is that what is is it fear people 100% yeah people are afraid of change they're afraid of the unknown they're afraid of uncertainty they're afraid of failure for sure if you offer them some really convenient stupid job

103:51that is absolutely going to stay there for them or hey man take a chance open a Pottery Studio oh I'm might go broke people are terrified of failure yeah I I I mean I think you're right but I also think there's a level of that that's also kind of like graduate school in the sense that maybe a lot of people are just addicted to being pacified that like you know hey I get my three hours of television at night and I'm get my you know and just they're they're even considering that notion of what you're talking about Beyond The Realm well you know that exper just keep me plugged in I'm cool you know that expression the comfort zone is beautiful but nothing grows there oh I didn't know that it's a it's a great you know it's nice to be comfortable it's beautiful oh relax but you don't get better at anything you don't get better at life you don't you don't grow and we're scared of

104:36uncertainty you know we want to survive we don't want to starve to death we don't want to be a failure we don't want to be that guy that you know used to be on TV and now he's a security guard you know that all those things that like the fear of not being successful is so stifling God it so is I just when you say that it just immediately just triggered my you know my own life and all the failures I've had all the fuckups falling flat on my face you know many many many times but like the getting back up it's like that's where the work is that's where the that's where the Awakening is I mean it wasn't like hey everything's just going perfectly and oh wow isn't this is all my life is just rolling out on a red carpet then I turned on or something happened and I you know touched the the face of Enlightenment no it's because fell in the dirt and you take those risks and happens and you and you

105:27the Grist for the mill as Romos would say and you know you have that Grist for the mill that makes it so much juicier and falling fat in your face it's essential and I think you can apply that same sort of thinking to our entire civilization and I think right now we might have skinned our knees we might have fallen on our face we might have gone face down in the mud and like ah and I think we got to get up and realize that it up you know and we'll see how bad we it up and who knows because one of the things about having an outsider in this what I think is an impossibly corrupt unfixable Foundation filled with which is what I think our our society's built on whether it's special interest groups or corporate greed or lobbyists or all the chaos private prisons and the War on Drugs all the chaos that I think any rational person that's not connected to it in any

106:22sort of a way where you're making profit off it would agree like this is an insane way for an enlightened Society to behave and act it's broken right unfixable just just right that the awareness of that is more and more exposed today online and in conversations and people are more aware of that than any other time in human history but I feel like we're like a giant Battleship that it takes a lot to turn that it takes a lot of a lot of thinking and action it takes a long time for that thing to actually spin around yeah that's right that's right and the first you know the first step in that is like the acknowledgement that hey we skinned our knees or maybe F fell flat face down into the mud or something and is the acknowledgement that that is the case that's the scenario we're in and which is why I'm always so frustrated in that like you know the general narrative or

107:20the general rhetoric especially in politics is you know the wrong conversation's always being had nobody's talking about the right we're treating the symptom we never treat the disease we're just treating the flu you know blowing our nose constantly and never ever acknowledging the disease you know Bernie Bernie Sanders touched on acknowledging the disease he was the first guy what really in a long time to make it that far and acknowledge the disease we are at risk of becoming an oligarchy it's the top 1% that is ruling the country the first guy ever right I mean if you really stop and think about it like who got that close to the Democratic nomination yeah other than McGovern yeah but I mean I think in in you know old older older times you know in the 19th century there was kind of you know hints that you know this this could happen and kind of people um insinuating that hey

108:12the Industrial Revolution and carnegies and the melons and the Rockefellers like watch out this could get dangerous uh Eisenhower warned of the military-industrial complex and he was um that was a creepy speech right a creepy speech but fascinating at the same time but yeah so Bernie took it he did talk about the disease which was fantastic so it is out there that you know that we have these fundamental problems until you fix the fundamental problem nothing else is going to get better which is essentially taking the money out of the game yeah right that's why I do think it's F fixable I disagree with you in that that I do think the machine is is fixable how's it fixable take the money out that's unfixable no it's not the whole thing runs on money how you going to take the money out have you read um Republic lost the Lawrence lesic book no you got to read it man

109:02fascinating fact or watch the his 20-minute Ted talk you can get the whole book in that too what's his solution get rid of lobbyists yeah man that's easier said than done I know I know I know someone like Trump is actually working to do that whereas someone like Hillary is not like he's already put in a bunch of regulations to make sure that people cannot become lobbyists within a certain amount of time after leaving office after leaving office but he also has like the you know the president-elect office is crawling at the same time it's crawling with lobbyists yeah who knows you know I mean I'm not a trump supporter but I'm not a I'm I'm not I'm not convinced that having this complete Outsider who's also a guy who's been feeding this machine with money and making these massive political contributions so he understands the system and how it works I'm I'm not not

109:50completely I'm not completely denying the possibility that he might present some good I I just think he's the wrong guy for the job I do believe in The Outsider thing I love that that's great that's a great part of him I just Bernie would have been fascinating yeah Bernie would have been fascin he would have cost me a shitload of money but I would have been willing to take that chance I would have loved to see it I love to see what the would happen because that guy doesn't give a but and he's not you can't buy him man you can't buy him man you got you got to watch this this Lawrence L talk it's a few years old now but it really just it it kind of rips apart and everything out on on the white board and into like a keynote presentation about even the you know the most well-intentioned politicians who are great Mr Smith Goes to Washington kind of just great people who go in

110:34there with the best of intentions you know at some point you know then they end up spending 25% of their time inside of the phone bank the Democrat the DNC phone bank begging people for money and you know they do that and it's across the street from the capital so it's not too far and and it just and it escalates and it's a snowball just going more and more more and then it just becomes even the best in but if take money out of politics then you have only people with money who get into politics because they have so much money they don't need anybody else's money hence Donald Trump yeah but I mean if you did it like uh you know first of all if you did it like the UK does it and shorten the election season you know first we got that's a great first step you know you can't make it 18 months it's insane and the amount of money it's great team sport it's

111:22going on forever we get a root root rah rah they got debates and season yeah man great television people wear their red and their blue and make America great again hats or but the amount of money that it takes to play that I know right what was he making per day from those hats off make America great I bet Millions no he was making some like 80 grand a day or something from the hats something stupid it's so bad there's those stupid looking hats too they're not it's not even a good design it's like somebody made it at the mall you know those little CHS what do you wanted to say Bobby loves Jessie all right Bob Lov Jessie make America great again red hat white letters I'm the man I'm the man I got the Hat on the man I don't even know what that means yeah he doesn't know what it means either Jesus chist well I don't know I mean America's never been greater in

112:12terms of like safer more access to Medicine more access to information more access to education never been better in that way but like uh you know are the R our education rankings you know it's sort of in the world in the world where we're used to place you know the your typical high school graduate graduate in the year like 1960 you know it's like went to college and and ranked number one in global math science you know that's cuz the rest of the world was in the Stone Age and we were uh we were the only civilization I think I think we were we had just started civilization back then and no one knew about it yet and they all caught on and we got fat off twinkies and the and Walmart poisoned us and then there's some from fracking that definitely got into the wall just I don't know man I think turn everyone on I'm I'm fine with that too I'm a pessimist in some in some

113:06forms but I'm an optimist in others and uh what I'm optimistic about is that people care and that this this world that we live in that this is a you know like when everybody was crying after Trump got elected and part of me was like well this is so Preposterous like why are these people crying but the the other part of me was like that is when things get done is when you have this outpouring of emotion and then people you know you like remember when those people were marching down Wilshire and it was just huge line of people like hundreds of thousands people that shut down Wilshire and these people filming it with drones from overhead I was like wow that's a crazy response to this guy winning the presidency and the people were like hoping the electors you know the Electoral College people wouldn't elect him and they were they would act on they well you it's not

113:53going to happen like you you're playing a game he won the game yeah and you can't you can't take it away from him after he won the game like he didn't cheat he won the game so this is the game and this is how the game works Russia listen this is the game this is how the game works now you got to figure out why is this game in place why do you have this goofy game why do you have this representative government why why why do we continue this you know and if we can slowly move that Battleship towards a more rational Place yeah you're right and it does come from a Consciousness shift that's the first step always comes from a Consciousness shift I think pot I think legal pot is the real Gateway I really do I really do because I think it calms people down it makes people nicer and I think just that alone it's like the opposite of what alcohol does that's true it definitely does not increase

114:45aggression for confidence it doesn't increase confidence at all it's the opposite for me it makes me that's why I don't smoke it more vulnerable you don't smoke it I don't like it I don't like it something changed in me um you know I did when I was when I was a teenager like loved it man you know I'm a dead head and that was my life but you know I take it now and it's just paranoia massive and also the confidence thing it does not bring out my best it makes me feel like if I we smoked and we did this podcast you'd be freaking out Ming on what do I have to say to Rogan ah I sound like an idiot Duncan told me it would be like that so it just it just it does not bring up my best so how long ago is this uh switch when did it happen to you oh quite a while like I mean I'm 43 you know you know more than 15 years ago so that's when you stopped smoking 15 years ago um no I stopped yesterday

115:41yeah I'm still freaking out because of yesterday's pot yeah yeah about about that yeah so um what do you do anything these days not sort of Psy um not really no I don't but um yeah I keep a place in in my heart for the Psychedelic experience should it arise again um you know in between English muffins in between eging muffins um you know uh yeah I mean I'm I'm open to that and should the opportunity arise I'm I'm down for it um I mean with the Psychedelic thing I just um yeah I mean I am open to it I just I kind of did kind of Hit the Allen Watts wall in a way like you know the Allan Watts thing about him uh you know I got the phone call and then I learned to hang up the phone what is the Alan Watts thing how's that work the quote goes something like um I got the phone call and then I kind of learned to hang up the phone I didn't need to stay on the phone with relating

116:37to psych oh I see I see so he got the message he need to continually get the message over and over and over and over again McKenna I think was in that boat too before his death they were saying he talked a lot about it but he really wasn't doing anything anymore oh really oh I didn't know that a lot of pot though did smok a lot of pot cuz I always remember Terren you know the thing that drug people have is repeatability you know it's that well it's true but I mean after 5,000 mushroom trips I mean Jesus Christ I mean I've done acid what 200 times or something you could probably be like legally insane right I don't think I think like there's a certain amount of acid trips you do where they used to classify you as being legally insane well yeah I mean maybe do you get some money from the government bro you could hook it up how much probably 50 bucks I don't know but if you if you just ran

117:28around saying that I broke my brain and I'm disabled I bet you could Juke the system I used to that's really funny you know I had them it reminds me I used to have um a a pretty serious hard drug problem too which I hard drugs yeah which I I've gotten you know which ones heroin and crack and oh damn dude gotten through it the needle or the SM snorting smoking smoking the no needles needles yeah stayed away from that but you know made it through and I'm good damn how'd you get on that how' I get on it yeah um oh pain you had some injuries or something no pain emotional pain pain yeah emotional suffering pain lost aimless wandering the world aimless not knowing what to do and that was the Escape was the heroin somebody introduced me to it about that period in time and uh and it just was like oh wow you know heroin has the great ability of um and it's really seductive and really

118:24up of making you think that your life is okay when you're in the gutter wow it has that sort of that Sheen that it just kind of the bubble it puts over you you can be literally living in an Alleyway high in heroin thinking you got it going on wow yeah it's really weird and perverse like that and at that time in my life yeah I mean my dad just died um and you know when he died what with it what went with it was kind of my life up until I was 22 up until that point like my life was in that bubble you know he was larger than life he was famous you know girls came with that work came with that a scene came with that friends came with that and when he died that just it went poof girls want to bang you because you were oh of course Timothy L's son of course yeah really hey I me nice yeah it worked out for a while sweet yeah did you put on like a guru attit to like just oh God

119:23relax I've got it all going on ladies dude at that time that that stage in my life no was that was a disaster I try to do that now though on occasion oh but no I had a good story man this was really funny like you were talking about U soliciting the government for money for being an acid casualty which is a good idea but I was really high in crack once um and just kind of on a bender just losing my mind and crack and I thought in the middle of the night it'd be a really good idea to join the CIA and that they would want me me specifically being like Tim L's kid they'd want me because i' have access to that they want access to right like I can be an inside I was a mole and I was high on crack and I downloaded the I I filled out the form God you got that deep I got that deep I spent hours on it it's really long complicated the the whole cestin join the CIA print it out

120:16sent it in the mail you sent it in the mail you're in the CIA you're there with Anderson Cooper you work for CNN well yeah you're in there and never heard back but it was never heard back never never said they started laughing they just laughed and threw in the garbage sure but it was really funny and kind of a great delusional highend drugs moment wow so what did you think that you were going to do like as a CIA operative what we going to do we going to fix it from the inside with crack yeah something like that wow something crazy you know just that's what a crackhead does at the time how did you get off the crack in the heroin um yeah just recovery did you go the oh you went 12 step yeah a or Narcotics Anonymous kind stuff yeah worked for me how does now is that one of those things you have to continually visit do you have to constantly have meetings and stuff um

121:10well you know I am kind of a you know I'm kind of know in a way as a card carrying member as it were I'm kind of not the best card carrying member of it and I break from ition in a little bit and that like I don't know I'm not a zealot sure maybe um yeah maybe you do but for me I just happen to like it I just enjoy it whether or not I have to go and oh my God I'm going to die if I don't and I'm going to end up back in the gutter if I don't I don't know I believe there's a little hysteria with that and that's that's kind of like the party line um which sometimes bothers me a great that bothers a lot of people yeah sort of disempowerment it's disempowerment I don't believe that to any with any tradition or anything like oh my God if you leave us the shit's going to hit the fan man I mean you stop and think about a lot of destructive things you did when you were younger

122:01that you don't do now like well I don't need a 12-step program to tell me not to do stupid yeah I just I just know it's stupid and so I don't do it anymore but the idea that you could potentially fall into that is what they hold over your head right yeah but it's not that simple like oh my God I know a heroin is going to kill me so I'm just it I'm just going to stop doing it it's it's not that rational sadly wish it was that R what's the difference what's the disconnect the disconnect is that in order to uh you know and Bill Wilson was really a groundbreaking dude well he was also an acid head which is really kind of crazy Bill Wilson being the guy who founded Alcoholics Anonymous did acid what five times I think yeah well and he also thought that acid could be a viable treatment method for people that are alcoholics great it's completely ignored today and his thoughts and ideas about

122:48that completely ignored by people in recovery because they think no no no no you you don't get get clean by taking something else they they hate it and I before him you know that this sort of got popular before the documentaries came out and all that about exposing Bill Wilson I used to just blow you know AA members Minds with that it's like did you not he did and he had correspondence with with my dad when he was at Harvard I'm sure he did yeah they had some really interesting these letters are fantastic um and um yeah he called it the great ego sublimator and thought it could be um the solution for alcoholism and he did not change his sobriety date you know which is highly controversial soety date his soety date like when he said he got sober you know he still when he died he said he had whatever 48 years sober but he was still doing acid well he had stopped doing

123:40acid but you know typically you know in the in AA world if you do acid that's it you start over You' start day one start day one he didn't he he looked at Acid as being completely different than and intoxicant alcohol it was a neuros psychotropic therapeutic agent is how you referred to it well I think that is what it is and I think this blanket statement you know drugs yeah that word drugs it's just like it's it applies to too many things that do too many different things that's right it's like food do you know food's bad for you what no no food's not bad for you well this food's bad for you oh yeah okay it is but like the salad's good for you like that's food too and that's the problem with drugs drugs the word drugs applies to things that are highly beneficial that's right it's just you know in in AA land I get why they need to tow that that company line but isn't it I do get

124:33it because then again it's disempowering in a way isn't it because it's you're treating everybody as if you are the weakest possible example look man I'm not I'm not disagreeing with you at all but I'm just saying I get it because it does work right that's all I can say about it I don't disagree I'm I'm kind of wish washy about it but it works to have a hard line I have seen people's lives who you just you know the the doldrums the you know the disin I mean left for dead get their lives saved and have really great productive amazing lives today and it's a really beautiful cool thing to see well there's also I think we we have to come to the to the realization that everyone's different biologically yes that that's why that that's the point everybody's wired differently there is no one size Fitz all thing and and now what seeing with ibog treatment that you know Maps us to

125:24oh my God so so cool really really promising and so you know I just encourage everybody to find their own Dharma find their own path and kind of make what works for you you know there's no prescribed method for Spiritual Awakening or or life saving or life-changing you know you just have to you know balance it correctly L to your heart what is your life like like what do you what do you do with your time what do you what do you do for money uh well I do a few things I my life is kind of split into two thing you I I have my podcast right what is that called again it's all happening it's all happening yeah um so I do that um I'm actually starting another podcast um I'm going to be hosting the maps podcast oh really yeah oh that's awesome so maps are starting and I'm going to helping them get it off the ground and host it and start that um so you know I kind of do

126:15that I I can speak you know at festivals and kind of teach you know some some spiritual stuff and kind of do that right um been working on a book but the other half of my life um kind of before I had my own little Spiritual Awakening I was a a technology consultant a branding consultant and worked in digital marketing and at a lot of ad agencies and stuff and led kind of a 9 to-5 corporate life which i' I've ditched but um I still keep some clients as kind of a day job sort of thing which kind of fun so that's interesting so like what what what does that entail like as far as anything that is if you know a brand or an entity or a film or a music client anybody wants to come to me and sort of Define their internet strategy how they want to behave online um you know whether that's just something as mundane as having a new website to coming up with a complete

127:07communication message about how they want to Market their their thing so I kind of do that too so I I divide my time sort of 50/50 between my stuff and then other people's stuff and when does this Maps podcast launch January oh that's Co cool so you you by just by having that name attached to it you'll be able to get some pretty amazing guests yeah man' we'd love you to do it of course I'll do it I'm in's do it sign it up yeah set it up pass pass it on so yeah 2017 folks shit's going down so yeah I keep busy man I keep busy beautiful yeah all right man well um let people know um what's your Twitter handle is it just Zack lry Zack lir or go to my website Zack l.com and the podcast is called it's all happening is it a available on iTunes podcast stuff yeah well thanks man thanks for coming in Fun Time appreciate it appreciate it very much Zack ly ladies and

128:02gentlemen thank you everybody we'll be back tomorrow with the great Greg Fitz Simmons also known as grapefruit Simmons see you