Mike Baker

00:06yes and we're live Mike Baker how are you sir I am doing very well thank you very happy for coming back man appreciate it good to see you this world's in chaos we need to talk to a rational man like yourself who's got the inside scoop I have never been build that way before but thank you that's a that's a bonus in this irrational World your rationality you you're you're what deemed a rational man now yeah that's what we've been lowering the bar hav we we've been lowering our expectations we were talking before the show started about the current cover of The Economist that has Donald Trump dressed up like his Uncle Sam and it just says really it's it's perfect you know and it's what you want to say to everybody who has jumped that Chasm right I understand that everybody's upset people are angry people for whatever their motivation right so they're you know they they get

00:55Jones up this is it look at that cover look at that this is what we're down to that's brilliant but how do you get how do you get from okay he's entertaining and I understand that everybody wants to be entertained to some degree but how do you get to the point from saying it's entertaining to leader of the Free World and that's the part that I can't understand when I talk to people who are are are absolutely supporting him well you as a man who's been deep in the world of security your CIA operative you you've got the inside scoop with how this machine runs to to a certain extent don't you think that at this point it's so it's it's so complicated that almost no one wants to be president like the it's not a job that like people are scrambling to get anymore right nobody in their right mind would want to put themselves through it or you know unless you're independently

01:49wealthy um and and uh and just don't care and there's there is I think you're right there's there's a you think about the kid who wants to become president of the young Republicans club right in in in middle school and then you know all through his life that's all he wants he wants to be an elected official somewhere so he goes maybe to the Town Council then eventually and his big goal is to become a congressman and God forbid then he gets that and he goes on there's a certain personality type right that's way up its own ass that allows you to think that yes I I should be president of the United States I look in the mirror every morning and I think yes I should lead the Free World so right there I think you've got a flaw in all the people who are pursuing elected office but then you've got the money that's behind it you've got you have to be independently wealthy I watched not

02:35to disappeared down a rabbit hole but uh I lived on the East Coast before we moved out to Idaho which is a great state love Idaho my God it's a great beautiful people don't know no and we probably shouldn't say anything about it they think it's can they think it's flat or something I had this conversation with these two guys about it and they were like well you know it's mostly Farms like what the what are you talking about man it is I mean there's a lot of there a lot of Agriculture but you know what it has more if you here's a here's an interesting fact about Idaho people can write this down if you took an iron and ironed Idaho flat and then you did that with all the other states the only other state that would be bigger would be Alaska yeah and the same for River Frontage right the river miles rafting is is insane out there so but the point uh being I suppose is before

03:17we moved out there I was on the east coast and um my wife is is involved in politics to some degree but we we spent some time in Connecticut right watching uh the the governor race there um and they would to go from Town Council to Town Council it works based that way I mean you have to get the the vote of the Republican party or the Democratic party and the Town Council and the first question any of them would ever ask was you know can you self-fund basically you know how much money do you have and so you you put that you know together with the idea that nobody wants to open their family up to the the ridiculous scrutiny that's involved and you you we get what we get we get this this crazed campaign season yeah it seems like we're down to ask that's it it's the only people who want to be it and Bernie Sanders is just I mean he's kind of an old C I don't think

04:06he's an I think he's got I don't think he's an no he seems like a nice guy actually with a lot of good ideas socially I I don't know I don't know it just it's like it's the biggest example in my opinion of picking the Lesser evil I mean that's how I'm looking at this campaign it's like what's the Lesser evil it's going to be Hillary Clinton who basically I I just I can't I don't I don't feel any sincerity from her at all it's so hard she's been in the business for so long she's been involved in politics for so long like I don't know if she knows how to be just herself that's a good point I mean I my problem with Hillary is it's purely an operational one I know that if I had handled I mean even in a conservative way if you look at what she did with the email server and her colleagues her cohorts did uh and you say okay it's it's you know in a conservative way I'm

04:58looking at at how bad it was if I had done that I would have been sent to prison and I know uh because we had various Counter Intelligence you know operations and else you're trying to find the leak you're trying to find the problem and you know you watch people get banged up for Less egregious acts than what she's been involved in so my problem with Hillary is look you know you one set of rules for everybody right and you know David Petraeus is a good example he hands over some uh of information to his mistress who had a security clearance and uh he gets a couple years probation you know a large fine has to plead guilty um she literally hands it over to the Chinese the Russians and any other state and non-state sponsored you know hacker out there and explain what she did for people who don't know sure she um for whatever her motivation she initially said it was simply a matter of ease

05:50after saying that she didn't really know because it wasn't her gig um she set up a a a private email server in her bathroom and her bathroom in her bathroom at her house in in uh who the puts an email in a server in their bathroom I know I know well you know that seems like a weird Choice well you know you're multitasking maybe you know don't have that much time in the day maybe she's constipating so I she did not use that excuse as I recall still doesn't make sense it doesn't make any sense I know I mean they like they have no extra rooms right in the Clinton house it's it's a small place they only made about $190 million over the last couple years so we're supposed to believe she's living in a one bedroom one bath place you know 800 and so she she used this and essentially the the problem is she traffic was directed through this unprotected uh server that now you know

06:41and she's arguing semantic she's saying well I never saw that it was classified and yet it's either classified or it's not and you know it when and when you sign on to be whether it's a senior official at her level or or some you know mo that's that's walking around just carrying papers at the agency whatever it may be you sign agreements you that you will protect classified information and it doesn't say it has to be Mark classified it says that you were aware because you go through a briefing about what is and what isn't and how you look at a piece of information to determine so she's saying it wasn't classified when she saw it um or when it hit the server but what they were doing is essentially cutting and pasting from classified documents so that they could bypass traffic and what their motivation was I have no idea whether they thought it was quicker whether it was easier you

07:29know I don't read a lot of Nefarious intent I just read um an egregious mishandling of of classified information that anybody else would be punished for and it's you know I don't think it's going to happen I think the the bureau is engaged in a couple of different investigations I think they have all the information they would need to put the ordinary person you know uh or move for an indictment I just don't think the doj is going to do it so that what is their motivation to ignore it well I think it's a I think it's political top cover because there's not there's only one other person running for the Democratic party right and a lot of people aren't too excited about having Bernie Sanders become the president right right and and and I mean again it's sort of you know the the the left makes fun of the Republicans as they should because look what we've got as our front runner but

08:13uh you know they make fun of the idea that you know the Republicans are all upset because their anointed one whether it's Rubio or whomever you know is is in the dust right now it's the same way on the other side right I mean they you know there's a lot of people you know with their knickers in The Twist on the on the on the left upset that perhaps their anointed one isn't going to get in if if hum abadin or one of her cohorts who was involved in this who also were being looked at in a very very serious way if one of them gets banged up for this then I don't know how it doesn't spread to her she was in charge and you know I understand rolls downhill but anyway so that's well it seems like the only way it wouldn't is the whole thing that we're talking about her in the first place that she's just so deeply entrenched in the system she's so political and she's washed so many hands

09:00and you know they they're all tied in together and this is the fabric that's sort of keeping her afloat right now her whole sort of you know political operating mechanism I mean she's just so deeply entwined in the Washington system and that seems to be what's keeping her from I mean if this was going on and somehow or another this was someone like Trump someone who's an outsider Jesus Christ they would chase him down yeah forget about it I I this is this is a remarkable situation um somebody who's is a from and and again not taking away she's got a lot of experience okay I understand that um I like you know Bill Clinton I I liked the guy I thought he was a you know there was there was a lot of good things about him um it's just it's it's pretty it's pretty up um I don't know how else to put it we got Trump on one side we've got we've got Hillary under

09:52investigation on the other side we got Bernie Sanders and I get it I understand why people like Bernie because hey who why wouldn't you like free stuff free stuff is I'd give me some of that you know I've got three little boys I got to put through college I mean well people feel like there's an imbalance and they feel like this is the only guy that's saying hey it's imbalanced and the the people that understand economics are apparently upset at him I don't understand economics I'm lucky I don't have to but the people that you know if I was a accountant I'd shoot myself I'd jump off a bridge but the people that understand it are like this guy's policy this is not going to work like none of this is going to work so that's an argument for other people but the people that feel like we got screwed in 2008 with the the you know the whole bailout and the the banks and all the

10:39the craziness with the economic collapse they feel like at least some guy's coming along that's addressing that and he's the only one so that's what people are gravitating towards and there's a lot of social stuff like his gravitating towards the black lives matter movement and wanting to make medical marijuana legal and all that stuff that I understand too but there's not one person that stands out where I go there's my guy there's my guy yeah I I agree 100 absolutely 100% yeah I mean if you could take Bernie because I think I I think one of the things people like about Sanders is he's been consistent over the years right so he's not you know he's not changing and and and again there is something to be said uh here in this political system where apparently you're not allowed to evolve your thinking right so the idea flip fler yeah oh my God yeah you can't do that or

11:23it's so that part of it or you can't negotiate a compromise as if somehow that's a weakness negotiating a com Rising is how you get done whether it's in government or business but so anyway I understand people like Sanders they like his his uh his consistency um I understand the social side of it I think it makes good sense I you know I'm like you I don't you know i' I've spent most of my life overseas some of them in some pretty crappy countries where socialism has been tried I understand he's a Democratic Socialist and so it's a Kinder gentler form uh but I've seen some pretty harsh results from those systems overseas and I uh I'm surprised that um I'm surprised that there I understand young people jumping on that train um and I'm just surprised at the uh the other folks who are on board you know there's a lot of people up in Wall Street that are saying man Bernie yeah

12:15get Bernie's going to tax the out of those people uh and he he said as much yeah so I I don't know how much he's going to tax people I've tried to pay attention to how the I mean essentially what he wants to do is anyone who makes more than a certain amount he wants to impose a very large tax above that certain amount you know figure out whatever that number is whether it's $10 million a year whatever the hell it is anything over that he's just going to tax the out of it but the problem is that's not going to pay for everything he needs he needs to he's that tax is going to roll down to the middle class and the lower middle class and that's sort of the elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about I mean Hillary's been talking about a little bit she's been bringing this up um but and and I the Republicans haven't been talking about it because I don't

12:56think they view him as as anybody that they're going to be facing in the general election but you know taxing taxing that 1% the 2% the 3% whatever it is you know you could raise those taxes up to 99% you're not going to pay for free healthcare and education for this this country well not only that everybody's always complaining about the government there's too much government the government's intruding in our lives the government this the government's that when you charge more taxes you take more taxes what are you doing you're creating more government that's just what you're doing the money's not going to go or directly to people you're not going to get a check in the mail folks it's going to go to the government and then the same incompetent that are handling the IRS and all the other those are the people that are going to be handling this money that's what do

13:38you think they're going to do they're going to create more jobs they're going to have more people working for Less they're going to make more money and work get less done and it's going to be more catastrophe and it's it's a cluster there's too many goddamn people there's to and and you know what when 2008 hit when the when the economy really went in the you know growth in terms of employment you know where it happened uh most in country was in Washington DC I mean the the you saw the growth of government as as the economy was absolutely heading south and that's just that's the way it works there's certain there's certain things about uh big government that hold true whether it's here or outside this country but anyway so I you know I look at Bernie and I think yeah I I I get it I like you know I like the fact that he's been consistent I think that makes sense but then you look at the

14:22Republican side and we go back to that picture of trump and you think how does that how does that happen how do you get to this point and you think about poor what's his name Scott Kelly the astronaut he's coming down after you know he's out of a long sleep up at the space station I hope to hell that they haven't told him about what's happening because how funny Would it be for him to land and and and Trump is the leading candidate and nobody said anything to him yet and he just comes home turns on the TV it's super Tuesday Trump's won everywhere and he's going to be I mean he's dealing with gravitation and all the rest of it so I guess this isn't his biggest deal don't think get like internet up there I think he's got something I'm sure they do he's got satellite internet I think magazine delivery I mean he's got to know I mean you you'd go crazy if you're completely

15:03removed from from life when you're up there yeah yeah I think uh I'm I'm I I would love to think that he doesn't know and he'd be the one person who' get Gob smacked when he shows up here and finds out what's going on but maybe he could run last minute look look look look stop stop well here's the thing it's just there's no one else if Hillary gets tossed up in this email exchange thing if she gets in trouble for this and you know it's it's Bernie that's it on the on the Democratic side and on the Republican side it's essentially down to I mean Cruz seems like he's fallen out of it it's Marco Rubio and Donald Trump and Rubio is a distant second yeah and people are so excited about Trump because he talks he's he's bold and Brash he insults people and he's got his own money he he says a bunch of crazy like there's a great picture of him where it's it's a photoshopped picture

15:54of uh somebody made a picture of him and he's got a gun and he's pointing it out the window of a car and it says get in we're going to make America great again but it just seems like there's so many like goofy white guys who are ready they're ready and psyched to have Trump as president like some insulting reality star kind of a president who wants to uh impose uh trade sanctions yeah that's what you want to do when when the economy is is troubled and weak that's a great idea is to is to shut down International trade that's that's always proven to be a smart thing to do there's the picture look at this picture so stupid oh God i' love that as my screen saver see as a comic I should be excited about this yeah should I should be like I am going to have a great four years at least you wouldn't have to do anything you wouldn't have to there would be no work involved in every

16:49day would just go on the internet and it would be a rush to get to the stage quickest with the material that would be the problem because everybody's going to have the same jokes is the the Folly will be outrageous I think people are excited though that he's got his own money he's not entrenched in the the system the Washington system but God damn it no it can't we can't um we we can't I have this uh happen we we have we have more crisis around the world right now more hotpots more potential very very serious conflicts going on and now is the time you would think whether it comes from the left or the right that you want really clear strategic smart pragmatic reasoned leadership and this ain't it I mean you know Trump isn't isn't the guy um hey great that he's insulting people great that he's talking outside but he doesn't you know and I'm sure this is going to

17:45you know piss off I don't know how many Trump supporters you've got listening but uh he doesn't stand for anything right I mean he stands for what I mean I suppose the sporters would say he stands for winning uh but what the hell does that mean Tiger Blood Tiger Blood that's it that's it I had a tiger pan Panther bits it maybe Charlie Sheen could be his running mate he'd win for sure God but I mean but the fact that we even having a conversation about it where we're talking about whether a guy like Trump is is is suited to be president is astounding right we we get that far in the weeds we shouldn't even have that conversation we should be up at the 30,000 foot level says no let's push that to the side well you know who oddly as impressive to me as Ben Carson I know he believes a lot of whack stuff like he's not entirely convinced that evolution is real he's

18:33got he quite wrapped his head around that one yet he's got some whacky ideas like he's got a great picture of himself that uh he's a painting that he had done at his home where it's him and Jesus is behind him and Jesus has his hands on his shoulders it's yeah okay um and that is this Jamie found it first of all if I was Jesus I'd smack him why is my head so small why are my hands so big why am I wearing a bath robe what the are you got that weird evil widow's peak thing going on well it's a kind of crease in his head like a Pitbull yeah look he looks like he's ready to bite your face off Kling on head a Kling on head you're right Jamie and he's wearing a comfy U Hotel bathroom that's what it looks like it doesn't look like uh you know Garb from from the Middle East necessarily yeah at all looks like he's just walked out of the shower why so white doctor you're here I don't even

19:26think they had bleach back then did they have bleach in the Jesus days I mean things were like natural cotton color yeah no I I'm pretty sure they had no tied capsules or whatever we use I don't like how he made Jesus smaller than him either that's kind of weird yeah that's rude I mean you know who knows who painted it for him but I agree with that I like the fact that again you talk about someone who's reasoned I like the fact that he's reason but we got to a point he's not presidential and we've got to that point where part there's so many problems with our our system but one of the problems is I think that people are are hellbent on finding the candid that they agree with everything on or that agrees with them on everything and I got you know my three little boys are what 8 six and four and they know they're not going to get everything they want right but they

20:10also know that if they if they work it enough they'll get some of what they want right and then they're going to be happy enough and they'll go off and you know the day continues adjust their expectations adjust their expectations but nobody wants to do that anymore in in politics and and so you're getting everybody's splintering off and so you know the worry obviously it's no not an epiphany people are talking about all the time on the Republican side it's just you know people are throwing these verbal hand grenades out and there's no way to repair the damage once there's some nominee if there is a nominee and well Christie is trying to do that now Chris Christie's now friends with Donald Trump he's endorsing Donald Trump Jeff sessions Endor Donald Trump new Gingrich is reportedly talking to Donald Trump how how much and I don't this sounds wrong but

20:52how how do you get to the point where you can set aside um all your concerns and and agree to step forward and say that he's the guy um I don't I don't know how that works but yeah there's there's not one person that and that's fine and so what you have to do is you have to look for the combination of character and experience I think that's what we used to do and but it's all bread in Circus now so it doesn't that doesn't matter anymore I don't know I think we're going towards a third party at some point well we can't you can't have a president that is has any secrets they can't have any any sort of uh weird Kink or weird background like could you imagine if JFK was live today what kind of they would dig up on that guy's life oh absolutely he was a freak great great president but he was a freak the guy was a sexual freak and and the Press Corps kept that secret they

21:49just like what they did with Roosevelt and being in the wheelchair there was tacd agreement we're not going to bring this up yeah I mean that was how they did it back then because they felt like they had a duty to keep America strong and they just everybody just kept it to themselves and kept their mouth shut yeah well I mean Taft Taft was crazy and and you know the Press didn't bring up any of his how about when Lyndon Johnson literally was doing a press conference while he was taking a that's right that's that's a true story did a press conference on the toilet taking a with in front of a bunch of reporters he would talk to his cabinet guys or guys would come in and he would be dictating notes and he'd be you know squatting on on the pot there and you got to admire that the guy was comfortable in his own skin but uh I I think that you know everything's gotten

22:32sliced and diced um and which is by itself also very divisive so the more that you do that the more you take you know the country and say well we're going to we're going to slice this up into various demographics and sectors and groups and opinions and we're going to go after this one well by definition you're going to end up hitting groups against each other and that's what we've been seeing and and I think that's in part um you know why we're why we're so now you know and and it's not it's not a new phenomena I'm not going to throw all that on the current Administration you know they've been I think they've been more divisive than they have been unifying but you know overall as a country and part of it may be the speed of information and all the rest of this but it just seems like you know we're we're getting to the point where I think we're going to have

23:15to get rid of the two-party system we'll keep the two- party system but we're going to have to have a third maybe a fourth there's going to have to be more potential opportunities for people because that's what they're demanding very I agree you know what else I think I think there shouldn't be a president any more I think it's a ridiculous idea just a cabinet just a committee just having one guy that's in I mean we know he's not really in charge we know there's just too much going on there's no way he could be there's no I mean when something happens and something goes wrong like some someone said to me something about uh drones they were talking about drones and Obama has blood on his hands like do you really think he's in charge of all that do you really think there's any way this guy could be on top of the economy can be on top of international trade it can

23:56be on top of international relations and he's also piloting drones right you he's got there's a lawyer in the White House basically by the way who makes that call on high value targets and whether we get to go or not go a lawyer does a lawyer does yeah get go figure with no with no real National Security experience who's the guy don't even say his name I won't say it won't say the name Candy Man but so this guy decides whether or not it's worth the potential casualties yeah there's a there's a a a shitload of work that goes on in uh in getting to that point where you can say we've got the target package we uh can we go or not go and people you know again I understand you know people think that the you know the agencies out there you know looking to create a one world government to screw everybody over but um how the could that ever happen I know I that drives me crazy the FBI and

24:50CIA can't even get along you can't I mean and sometimes betray us right right exactly I mean there there are so many and maybe cuz we talk about checks and B we talk about the Intel committees and you know the sort of that nature but maybe what maybe what really keeps us you know safe from the One World Government is affected you know there's so much territorial pissing that goes on between the different agencies but yeah the point being is that once you get that Target package and you and you you you've got to go get approval and it's the approval is not housed in the in the agency it's not housed at the Pentagon final decision making is over at the White House and it's it's it's it's basically a legal perspective and so once that's done then yeah sure you can you can fire a rocket up their ass if if you know if they're still where they are and you can get the decision made quick

25:32enough but it's uh yeah I but I agree with it so your point is correct you know the president you know is like a CEO of a company you know he he doesn't know what the hell's going on past his you know division leaders or who he could there's no way he could there's there's no way he could possibly know all the things that are going on that the United States is involved with all over the world there's no way I mean what do we have how many different bases then we have like bases in more than 100 countries crazy like that yeah I mean if you just Define a base as us you know permanent or semi-permanent presence yeah it's it's it's a lot but there's no and then and not just that but I mean every every other operation that goes on every other activity that goes on every there's you know that's why but I will say that's why you want at the top while we still have a president that's why you

26:21want someone who's very reasoned and uh cleare eyed uh not thin skinned you want someone who can negotiate you want someone who doesn't think they're the smartest person in the room and then they need to be able to pull together the cabinet that is going to actually start making decisions and I think presidential candidates even at this stage should be required to say who's going to be in their cabinet who would be your choice for for these various that's a very good point but yeah I thank you you know that that doesn't really get brought up right no oh no no and I you know I think it would make a a big difference you want to know who their team is going to be and you know who knows maybe that would cause a Scramble for you know top people and then you I don't know what that what all that would mean but it it's uh let's just say it's a very disappointing

27:08political season right now my my big fear is that we're going to have artificial intelligence and that one day artificial intelligence is going to govern World policy and world world issues I really believe that I know I'm for thinking this but I think that there's a there's GNA come a point in time where we establish rules of operation you know Do no harm or do the least harm possible you know these are the laws these are parameters that we need to operate in these are the rules that we need to enforce and this is when something get like like something like Isis when it gets to a point where everyone agrees okay we have a we have a tremendous issue we've got to do something militarily strategically some some choices have to be made what do we do that you could punch this in somehow or another to some some sort of artificial intelligence and it will dish out some

27:59sort of a decision based upon the Rules of Engagement based upon the the agreed upon parameters that we have set yeah I mean you know we're kind of Marching In I know that we get to that point but you know we certainly war game scenarios out yeah where you're you're running a a large number of potential possibilities um through the system and it and it is literally like you said it's spitting out you know likely outcomes and you're weighing that against I me because one big part that it's it's always missed because you know again there's this tendency to think that you know what people are just out there doing for the hell of it but there's a there's a big risk versus gain calculation that goes on whether it's at the agency or the military or anywhere else and So you you're constantly evaluating this and part of that uh eventually becomes political risk political blowback um so

28:47you know that's like the Benghazi thing how did I end up on that um but you look at Benghazi and you think um here's a part I don't understand about that not that you asked but um all they had to do during the course of that attack and they had no idea how long that attack was going to go on for all they had to do was put the birds up with the guys in them and head towards Benghazi that's all they had to do and then this would not have ever been a story they probably wouldn't have gotten there in time to save lives but they would have gotten there they would have been there they would have secured the facility they would have helped with the dust to clean up and they and it wouldn't have been an issue but the idea that they could all be sitting around in the war room watching this and not have that you know pop in their heads because 3 to four weeks down the road was a

29:32national election and all they could imagine was there was going to be some goat rope and they couldn't get to the point where they thought there'd be zero risk but it doesn't make any sense all those guys on the ground wanted was to know that the calvary had been called they didn't expect to be saved but they thought that help would be on its way because that's what you do and and it's it's one of those strange so when you talk about you know scenarios and and War gaming and and and potential political blowback and all that it's a fascinating world where you sit in a war room and all these different sides are being debated my perspective on Benghazi is I just don't understand why they didn't just try that's all they had to do and would think it was because of the election uh I think there were I think there were more political operatives in that room than uh than tactical

30:15operators wow and I think that somebody got jammed up um who wanted to spin them up and send them and I think that it was probably because and again I understand it's speculation and I get it and I'm not one of those people that said they could have saved those lives that wouldn't have happened but I I just don't understand the simple concept that one of those political operative should have said you know what if we don't try yeah we might get on this well shouldn't there also be a scenario or at least just a rule in place that whenever there's an attack you send in the troops that's that's the comant that's always You're supposed to be keeping that's that's the promise that's supposed to be there and that's why the promise that's a great way of putting it and that's why all the all the guys have been you know and the folks that were in that program and and and everybody I know is

31:01is people say why why would you be fixated on this why why you know why is this important it doesn't M you know like Hillary Clinton said what matter what difference does it make so important for for yeah exactly and and for that reason that you said there is there is this um understanding that you will make the effort you'll try and nobody out there on that you know pointy edge of the spirit expects that they'll be saved but they do expect that someone's going to call the calvary and try well the idea that you're left hang to to be hung out to dry with with an it's not like there's no resources that's where it doesn't make any sense no we have resources that's why it's so disturbing to people it's like if this was a political decision it's like to try to minimize blowback because of election coming up so let's just not do anything if that was the decision well

31:46that that's contrary to the whole purpose of having military in the first place like if there's a attack you're supposed to send in the troops particularly attack on your facility exactly and particularly to make sure that that never happen again cuz if if you know that every time there's an election coming up and well they're not going to do because there's an election coming up in 2 weeks now we can go in again now the time to do it that's that's a crazy precedent to set yeah well it it it is and again I I wasn't there I don't know I just and looking at it all the various scenarios and knowing what resources were available and and knowing what the guys expected on the ground I just don't I don't I don't get it and you know for a group meaning the administration that's supposed to be so uh clever politically savvy it just didn't make any sense and now

32:29they've been having to suffer with it ever since and aside from the fact that they did just didn't make the effort to try to save these people and again not that they would have but how do you not how do you not try I don't I don't understand that I don't understand any of it I don't understand whenever they're making decisions based on whether or not there's an election coming up and you would do something differently if there was and and people's lives could be lost because an election's coming up versus how you would behave it was first term or first year first term term I I think it's all Madness well there's a risk aversion um that that takes hold and we got to a point and it's not just a recent thing it's not just this Administration you know to be fair but there's this this understanding or this belief somehow that we can get to a zero risk on a

33:13military operation or an intelligence operation and you know so show me that we won't have casualties well what what the does that mean you're in a risk-taking business you want to try to minimize that risk for sure but when when when you're decision-making gets to that point and you start then it starts feeding down through the ranks and you start getting you know mid-level managers rising up who believe that you know a good watch is when nothing happens on their watch you got a real problem because it's unrealistic yeah I mean you don't again you don't you don't want to you know rush out there you know until you you you want to have a game plan right you want to know what you're doing operationally but you know there there are certain things that are worth bending your spear over now for a guy like you that was in the CIA for so long been involved in this stuff for so long

34:00how exhausting is all this cuz it seems to me that like it it seems like it never ends it seems like you like you step back for a little while and it just piles up more and if you retire the new guy comes in and you look at the new guy doing it and like the same shit's happening and it doesn't seem like anybody put a dent in anything and it continues to go on like the Middle East at one point at what point in time I mean how well I know what you're getting at there that seems pretty buttoned up I think we've got that under control yeah it's the craziest place in the world wow it's the if if the whole world okay let's put it this way if the whole world was Syria right yeah if it was just one big one big Syria what what the if the whole world themselves yeah yeah imagine the whole world was Libya what n you know what I I um if you had told us we spent a lot of time trying to get the

34:59Soviets out of Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan and the Soviets tried spent a lot of time trying to get themselves out of there about four years into their occupation there and they realize and we know this because we've seen you know the Kremlin papers and we've had you know access to a lot of their their thinking at that time uh they after about year or four they said this is up we got to get out of here but what could they do so they spent the next 5 years or so trying a variety of things they tried first of all they tried to find a government individuals that they could they could leave in place that would continue to push their agenda they couldn't find anybody they were dealing with corruption we know that they couldn't you know they they couldn't get past a lot of the corruption that sounds familiar they retreated from the the

35:39countryside and decided well we'll just hold the urban center so that's exactly what we did so they went through the same problems that we did if you had said anything when we were out there handing uh Weapons Systems to the mush shad dein and in retrospect maybe that wasn't a good idea uh but if you would told us that we'd be back two and a half decades later doing the same thing that the Soviets were doing you know trying to I don't know what what we were trying to do build a nation you know uh sell democracy where they don't have a clue what we were selling um so we don't part of it is what what you were saying we don't learn from our our mistakes so that's why that's the probably the most tiring part is watching happen over and over in cycles and every generation thinks they can do it better and so that's and that's a good thing probably but there's a lot of tub involved right

36:28in in thinking that you're going to do this somehow it's going to be different this time I had a guy I debating this guy who uh uh will remain anonymous she was in the military and um we were in uh we were in Afghanistan um at that point already with with you know trying to Nation build and I was very pessimistic about the whole thing and I kept saying this you know uh this is not what we should be doing with our our our boys or you know women as well and our resources and everything else I said they don't understand what the we're after here and we did a great tactical Mission you know right after 911 we did a beautiful I sound like Trump beautiful tactical Mission and that's what we're good at we're great at tactical missions but then you know about Springtime in 2002 we should have gotten the out said if you do it again we're going to come back and we

37:16didn't we stayed because we wanted to build a road or or improve their literacy rate by a couple of points so this guy said well it's different this time cuz I was saying look it didn't work for the Russians why do you think it's going to work for us and he said said well they hated the Russians and I thought wow that's that's your reasoning is because somehow they like us they or they they're going to you know we're going to throw chocolate bars out to them and you know they're going to and and and stockings and they're going to come running I mean what what the hell is is that point but we have this this mentality that we're going to do it better this time so you look at you look at uh you look at Isis you know for example and I mean who couldn't have guessed if we completely walk out you can debate all sorts of things about it but who couldn't have seen if you walk out of

37:59that place it was going to devolve into chaos you know if you leave a vacuum it it's not good and so that's what we we've got but we keep doing the same things over and over again and you could argue what we've doing in Iraq we did all those years ago after the Soviets left Afghanistan and so we left and it devolved into what it devolved into and oddly enough there were a lot of neocons who thought that was terrible we felt guilty about that so now we're going to get it right this time we're going to stay not thinking about what happened to the Soviets I don't know I don't know I remember when U McCain was debating Obama when they were running for president and Obama was talking about going to Afghanistan and I I remember this is a very sobering moment where McCain said what what are you talking about going to Afghanistan you're just going to send troops in do you

38:46understand that place and it was clear that Obama didn't you could tell by his body language you could tell by the way he was speaking about it McCain had this really clear sentence he said that place hasn't changed since Alexander the Great was running it and when when he said that I remember thinking like whoa what the so then I started researching Afghanistan then I started researching the terrain and how crazy it is it's like literally like trying to control like the Rocky Mountains like in Ido it's it's so remote it's so impossible to get to and then you find out that there's really only one city there's Cabell in the entire country there basically there's a few little towns there's one city yeah yeah it's just Warlords and they don't know what they don't know what we've been trying to sell them and it's the same with with Iraq it's the same with Libya Libya is

39:37complete hot mess now isn't it crazy that getting rid of Gaddafi made Libya worse well you know what Gaddafi here's the the that wacky thing Gaddafi was kind of our guy uh on counterterrorism for a few years before he got you know got pushed out and CU he had he had found Jesus and you know not literally I guess you know whatever however they put it um and he had started to cooperate with us and then the Arab Spring happened and then there was this bizarre belief that democracy was going to sweep through the region and the Italians and French came to us and said you know we got lots of interests there in Libya would you back us up we had no National Security interest in Libya and yet we went in and we did what we did and now it's a a hole it's 130 some odd tribes in libia and we're still talking right now we're still talking as if somehow we're going to find a federal

40:25government and that's what's going to help us because then one of the generals just came out yesterday or today or whatever and he said well I I don't think the Libyan you know libyans are going to be able to take care of Isis themselves because Isis now you know got a very strong uh hold in in Libya because they're smart because they realize they're having problems in Syria and Iraq they've been looking for another place Libya is chaotic so the general says all you know you know so once we get this Unified Government then we can work on training and assisting and providing resources and it just over and over so to answer your original question but in a very roundabout way yes it's it's it's tiring because you see the same over and over again yeah well I could only imagine I could only imagine just just trying to Nation build and the just see seeing these

41:10people that first of all you you're dealing with completely different cultures completely different cultures completely different educations people who are so backwards so far gone that taking a 45y old man who's so up and crazy and religious and trying to convert him to the ways of the West like these these people that executed that kid the other day in the middle of Iraq for playing music yeah because he was playing western music they beheaded him we don't understand that we can't process that but we have never been able to you talk about you talk about the Via Kong and we used to go in and you know we thought we're helping a village and go inul Village and they V call in to come in there and kill them because you know they'd had contact with us one of the first people that we hired uh uh some time ago for my company diligence uh for all your information

41:57and security needs little plug little plug um one of the first guys we hired was a a Russian uh came out of the their Gru and uh right after we'd gone in uh to uh for the Tor Bor operation he came to me and he had been a tank driver out in Afghanistan during the occupation for the Russians and and uh and he came and he you just see he was like the intensity on his face you know and and uh I had known him for a while and so anyway he grabbed me and he said he said he said that was brilliant he said meaning torbor meaning what we how quickly we had acted he said that was brilliant he says don't stay he said don't stay they're like cockroaches he say and and meaning you step on them here they show up over here and you could just see in his face and that that son of a was right and if i' had been smart I would have dragged him back to the States and taken him into the

42:48Pentagon and had him say that every hour on the hour you know until somebody figured out what the hell we should have been doing um but yeah we don't we we we don't seem to listen sometimes you got to jump in sometimes you got to take charge and sometimes you you need somebody who's in in charge you need a leader at the top of this food chain around the world because if you don't have one you get what we get now I would argue that part of the problem we have is the administration for whatever their motivation whatever their reasons and again you know fine they want to do it that's their that's what they're going to do they've stepped off the world stage to some degree they don't want to be the world's policeman or the world's leader they don't want to be at the top and when you do that it's it's not as if suddenly a community of Nations fills that void some other interest is going

43:32to try to become the top dog that's just a way it works so it's almost like there's a balance that's already been achieved and you have to maintain that balance some way in some way shape or form respons us be at the top of the food chain because I think and and some people will argue and there's always you know the folks that think we never act in in in best interest of anybody let me just pretend I'm them United States is the greatest terrorist organization in the world man don't you know that's you know what that's exactly what I'm talking about the US has been invading countries forever man why don't you just leave them alone just for oil yeah all we want is oil and and gemstones diamonds well we definitely want that stuff too we do want that stuff sure yeah the problem is we want that stuff too right right so it's but it's not that cut and dry you've got some

44:15up parts of the world and the more I talk to people that have been to those up parts of the world the more that picture is starting to be clear and clear the more more I talk to guys like Jo o willink who' been over there seals people that have served over there you get this picture of this place that's not America and you get a lot of people that are talking about the rest of the world as if we're talking about America like bad spots in America like well we need to fix Chicago well it does fixing Chicago is a goddamn Cakewalk compared to fixing Cobell or fixing any of these spots in the like Syria yeah and by the way we could we could we could be at the top of the global food chain and still fix Chicago right we can multitask but you know I guess the you I I spent enough time behind the the the the curtain uh of the US government that you know my my view is is is

45:04colored somewhat right I understand everybody's got their opinions based on their their experiences my experience is what it is I don't and I I I don't believe the US Government is out there to everybody over they sometimes they make a mistake we tend to be a pretty self-correcting Nation we try sometimes it takes a while whatever but you know we I would rather us be the ones up there you trying to to uh direct traffic than some other Nation like uh China or uh Russia or Iran for the Middle East make decision- making and we don't always get it right absolutely not and you do have to have checks and balances of course you do I mean it's that's you know that's where people always you know fall on one side of there well you just all you want to do is you know steal oil and treasure no I just want I want to try to ensure that we've got some good intent at the top of

45:55the food chain and I think the US is is well positioned for that because we try and again we don't always get it right but we make that effort so you know people can disagree I'm sure they are right now saying ah he's got an opinion but well yeah I do well you you you actually have a qualified opinion and that's the difference between your opinion and someone who's going the United States man we need to stay out of other countries man I think we need to pay attention to what's going on outside of the United States for sure I just don't know what you could possibly do to sort of smooth over the Middle East and bring them up to date I just don't know how you could how do you bring Isis up to date how do you say hey guys you really you can't execute 15-year-old kids for listening to rap music you can't you can't negotiate you can't it's not an organization that we're going to

46:45be able to deal with in in in in a in a manner that would make us all feel happy because we talked them down from you know from the ledge and and and they're not going to commit violence anymore that's that's not uh going to happen happen um and you can't also kill your way out of it there's that's that's the other part of it so how do you do it well you you try to you try to manage it and you manage it in part by not allowing the extremists to have their own territory because that that caliphate that they've been jonesing for all this time that's one of the reasons why they've been having so much success in recruiting foreign Fighters that's been a shitload of people going into that place and they they do it because hey look we finally got our own turf now we can take that Turf away uh it's it's it's now much more problematic because we sat on the sidelines for some time

47:33and the Russians are in there and nobody wants to get into a shooting match with the Russians at this stage of the game but denying them territory and then realizing that like with cockroaches they're going to pop up over here and then they're going to morph and they're going to be over here we're just going to have to play whack-a-mole for the rest of our lives probably this doesn't go away but we can minimize it and we can be aggressive enough without saying we're going to try to Nation build and also sell them something that they don't understand so I I don't know I I just but but again having sat on the sidelines for a while we've created more of a mess um at this stage of the game the Russian and Iranian influence uh in Syria uh the irans have more influence in in the Middle East now than they've had in Modern Times And this is this they can't imagine their good fortune

48:19and so now what are we doing well now the headlines are look they just had elections and the reformists are winning as if somehow Iran's going to change its tune it's it's insane we've had that hope for decades and decades and every time there's a little glimmer of you know maybe the reformist to the moderat you know are going to rise up it it doesn't happen well didn't we have a part of that too though right like where we we brought in the ayatolla to get rid of the Sha wasn't there like uh well we had we yeah we didn't so much fo ined as we just stood by and watched it happen and is that what happened we didn't sort of influence Ed at all oh no the Sha was our guy the Sha was our guy the Sha was our guy yeah well the we we brought in the Sha though right yeah yeah I mean we we and the Sha was a son of a you know just in the same he was you know frankly he was not much different than

49:10Bashir Assad or Assad's dad I got it confused so the Ayatollah came in and took how did the Ayatollah get into Power he was in Exile in France right and um there had been for some time because of the brutality of the shaw there had been a Hardline uh clerical Uprising you know sort of directing traffic amongst the population and say so the sha who was our guy was brutal and he was up right right and he had he had a very brutal intelligence service and uh so that was yeah that wasn't a happy chapter in the sense of um you know was the shaw our guy well yes but have we had other guys that were you know despots or or not not so much despots as just really unsavory people that in a Ideal World uh you wouldn't want to associate with but the real world doesn't work that way there there are some up people out there and the fact of the matter is sometimes you

50:06got to deal with the person that's there like that was the argument about what was going on in Iraq right that was the the argument about Saddam Hussein about Saddam Hussein was a horrible person he's a dangerous guy but getting rid of him might be worse yeah and there were a number of people that said that and and what turned that tide and people will you know people like Trump himself you know ah you know Bush lied people died you know it was only George Bush who thought there was Weapons of Mass you heard the latest that he said that if he gets in office he's going to find out the truth about who brought the towers down oh my God no he's a truther he's a truther not not only that he's also remember he's a birther he thinks Obama was born in Kenya do you remember that everybody's conveniently ignored this I know yeah nobody's going after the obvious but I didn't know I didn't

50:54know about the the the truth or bit oh my God it just keeps it keeps piling on this is a recent statement that he he made um yeah I you know what it's uh how does that how again how does it how does it happen that this country this fantastic country and I again I spent most of my life overseas I can go to the deepest darkest hole Somewhere Out There middle of nowhere and someone will will say if I go to America I can work this hard and I can do really well I just have to you know if I can get to America they still people out there in the middle of nowhere still believe the American dream and yet you worry about it because I think we seem to be giving up on it here if this is the best we've got if we're willing to follow this guy you know down the down the tunnel I don't know I don't know where we're heading but it's not good and you know and I also worry about

51:47you know part of it with Bernie Sanders going back to him is I think sometimes the young people uh who support him part of it is sort of being dis you know since 2008 they don't see themselves as being part of the American dream and if you don't imagine yourself working hard and becoming wealthy then you don't give a whether tax rates go up to 85% or not it doesn't matter to you because it's not going to be you it's going to be somebody else well it's just so confusing to people that no one can get it right I mean everybody had these hopes and dreams for Obama and he was going to get in office I remember there's this lady that was uh when Obama got elected she was uh she was she was so happy and she was saying I'm so happy because now I know that if uh my mortgage needs to be paid he's going to help me and it was like this yeah this really weird like moment where I

52:37realized like wow these people don't really understand how complex this entire system is and you're dealing with a guy who's stepping into the office right when all these banks are failing yeah right when all this this collapse is happening and people think that all of a sudden this guy's going to come in and he's going to have a completely different set of priorities and he's going to find all these people are you losing in your house we're going to fix that we're going that for you don't worry there's 300 million people in this country ma'am and there's not enough money to buy everybody's mortgage back and fix it it's just not going to happen we voted a guy into office who had no experience um he never had a job and yeah and and and so you get what you get and I understand okay everybody was excited sure hope and change and all that I it was it was very powerful

53:19message that they were delivering it was a smart smart campaign but you would think that over a period of time then what we'd really want now is somebody and again I I don't know where you find them but somebody with that combination of experience and character and and a proven ability a track record to work both sides right to say look we're going to be able to negotiate we're going to compromise we're going to find you know it's not rocket science to work out some of these problems right but the more problems we get and the more negative we get about them it seems insurmountable but we should be able to find somebody in this massive country of ours who um you know can propose some uh cleare eyed ideas I I don't know well for me it almost seems like taking a guy who this is is a analogy that makes sense to me taking guy who never fought before and then um make him run for the

54:10UFC and now all is you're going to fight in the UFC what's your experience fighting you're welcome you don't have any experience like it it you know what I'm saying like all of a sudden this guy gets this job it's the most complicated and impossible job in the world and he's he's never he's never served he's never been overseas he's never experienced combat he doesn't know what it means to be involved in a war he's never been there physically boots on the ground okay I'm not saying he has to but I'm saying wouldn't that help but wouldn't that flavor how you would understand and consider military action if you had actually been there whether you'd been there like at least Bush senior had been in the CIA he had been the head of CIA Bush Jr was classic seni was a World War II hero I you know this guy shot down sen was probably the most qualified guy to ambassador to China

55:01yeah ambassador to China head of the CIA a war hero uh I mean look the guy you know but yeah you're right on now left and right and and that's where we're at you can't you can't disagree with somebody's opinions without crapping on them right you can't just say look I get it you got different opinions than I do yeah okay fine let's talk let's figure out where is the workable solution you have to be a speaker too this is the other thing you have to be this engaging entertaining individual who I'd like to hear talk you know I want to hear like one of the things that was so great about Obama was how good he was a giving speeches the brilliant brilliant orator I mean he had me I was like this is my guy yeah I'm listen to him talk finally you got a smart guy and as opposed to Bush who is Bush Jr who is an awkward sort of a guy I mean w just wasn't that good of

55:50a talker and you know people would say he's stupid he's a dumb guy go back and listen to him when he was running for govern of Texas he's not a dumb guy no no you don't he's tired and overwhelmed right you don't get you don't get to those positions you know by being an idiot you may disagree with people's positions like I disagree with Bernie Sanders I don't I don't wish him any ill will I don't I'm not horrified that he's running I think that's the way it works in this country um I I disagree with the concept of of Socialism or Democratic socialism but at the same time I understand and I appreciate the fact that that's what he believes and he's believed it for a long time so great let's you know and and you're right we should be trying to to to help people that need a leg up we should be trying to provide the safety net the you know for the for the people that need it we

56:32should be trying to at the same time promoting the concept of of hard work and and success there's there's nothing wrong at all there's nothing wrong with success you work hard it's like it's like Monopoly monopolies decided they're going to I don't know whether for all their board games or not but monopo is going to take away the paper money and give you a bank card what right yeah yeah that's that's I I couldn't believe it when I saw Hasbro which owns Monopoly they say well we're going to use a bank card from now on so all those kids out there because I don't know maybe they don't want them to learn how to to count paper money because maybe it's unseemly I'm reading something into it that's not there obviously but you might not be yeah it's part and possible my kids you know they started a uh they started playing basketball uh a couple seasons ago and

57:11uh I remember the first League they didn't want to keep score oh yeah that's a big one what the yeah you're not allowed to be a loser yeah we don't want to put these kids through stress but you know what my daughter was playing softball and nobody won what the are you doing what happened why are you playing get off the field let's go do something else if if nobody's going to win you got to feel bad that's part of being a kid you feel bad and you go that sucked and then you practice and you know what those kids know I could ask my six-year-old I could ask I could ask Sluggo uh way into the third quarter of a basketball game I'd say what's the score and he would know the score all the kids knew the score they all all keeping score and so we're just blowing smoke up you know the parents ass and and and and consequently we think we're being clever with our kids saying yeah

57:53you know this will be fine they got but I know how I got off on this my my kid walked off the the uh the scooter the oldest one walked off the lacrosse field um and looked at me and he said so how'd I do and I said well yeah honestly do you want me to be honest or you you know want me to blow smoke up your ass and I i' said it and I didn't realize it were the parents around they were horrified and then I got dressing down and uh and but he said God bless him he said I want you to be honest I said well you didn't you didn't really try as hard as you could I said you know you don't have to be the best but you got to try really hard and the only reason that other kid was was scoring on you was because he wanted it more and I said and you can do that you know and and you you can tell kids that they're they're not playing their best you can in a nice you know uh

58:36constructive way but God forbid we should we should hurt any of these little snowflakes right by telling them this crap and now what do we get all those kids that started years ago when we started this movement to not keep school or anything now they're all at Yale or Amherst and they they they think that being contradicted means they're being persecuted yes right and so we we created this monster ourselves and now a lot of those people they you know they they look and they don't believe because they've been told they're victims and the systems rigged and they're getting every day they don't believe they can be part of the system so sure they look at Bernie and they think yeah that's about right that's what we need and they find like-minded people they band together they all agree on the same thing and they're they're they're having a battle right now to try to see who can

59:20be the most open-minded the most liberal the most accepting and that's where the competition is the competition is being the most leftwing the most Progressive they're they're each other other over on progressivist yeah I Progressive it's not even it's it's Madness it's so Madness that it's not even a word I can't even have a word for it progressiv make a new word yeah yeah George Bush made that it's it's we're getting to a weird po point where we're trying to coddle people and we're not allowing them to experience defeat we're not allowing them to experience discomfort which is how people grow when if you don't feel uncomfortable you don't learn you don't learn from you every mistake that I've ever made made me feel like and that's how I get better at things yeah cuz you learned I don't want to feel that way again so how do I get better how do I how do I do

60:08this but if you don't how do I do it with wrestling that's a good question you get pinned or you don't get pinned okay you know I mean how the they call it before you get pinned okay no one W you look like you approaching a pin so let's stop it how are they gonna do that cuz I tell you what man this times I got pinned when I was 14 years old still with my head been you been carrying that all these years I'll be in the gym lifting weights think about some kid and pin me in high school and I'll get angry little Bobby Schwarz if I ever find him I'll start doing extra chin-ups for that prick I'm G to go find where he Liv that's what motivates you there there it motivates you you know I mean getting Tapped Out in Jiu-Jitsu there there are guys that have tapped me out that are literally like when I'm tired I will think about them tapping me out and I will push further that is the

60:58only thing that motivates you is that Fe it's one of the only things that's really a powerful motivating factor that everyone can relate to is that feeling of defeat that horrible feeling where you go you know what I got to get better I got to get better because someone's better and the idea that you're saying that no one's ever better you're perfect that's not true that's not true you get better at stuff there's always somebody there always just like I tell my kids like there's always somebody that's going to be bigger than you there's always someone that's going to be smarter than you that's fine all you can do is the absolute best you can do and you work at it and if you fall down you know it you got to learn how to lose yeah you got to learn how to lose learning how to lose is an important part of being a grown-up but we've got I mean look at look at again look at this

61:38the the irony of of kids in in expensive colleges um you know denigrating Free Speech because it it it upsets their feelings are you progress kidding me Progressive we got to look that word up can we get some help on this my God yeah well the idea of being a impressive is a great idea you know you want everybody to like be equal and you want equality as far as the log and how people are treated and how you address people and no one is no one starts out in a worse spot but once that's established then you got to compete yeah and you have to and it's good for everybody it's good for you it's good for me it's good as long as you're competing fairly it it generates that competition generates a lot of good things first of all it generates ambition it generates success if you overcome these these obstacles that are created by competition you understand what what

62:35needs to be done in order to achieve things you you if you're going to go through life and you're never going to have any obstacles you're never going to have any character testing moments you're not even going to know what you're capable of no you're certainly not I mean and that's not much of a life lived I mean at the end of the day if you're not tested and and you're not pushed and you don't and you don't fail I I mean I mean I remember times when yeah it just it didn't even you you you knew it wasn't going to work out right but you just it it like you said it made you work harder it made you push harder and you realized uh it's like you know what it's like it's like interrogation training I don't know I don't know why this is popping in my head but it's interrogation training the whole point of interrogation training is to break you down so that you realize you've got

63:18a point uh where it's just going to happen so in interrogation training like is it training you to be able to with being interrogated what do they do I mean you also have the other side of the coin which is you know learning how Lear to interrogate and negotiate and all the rest of it we like to call it negotiation um so but the idea being is that you know when you're in in in interrogation training the idea is you have to understand that at some point no matter who you are you're it's going to fall apart and then what you need is you need to be able to pull yourself back together again so the idea of interrogation training in part is to show you that a you can go farther than you thought you could but also at some Point you're just going to say it I mean because you know depending on where you're at you know you're going to break I mean it's going to happen and when you

64:04do you got to be able to otherwise you're just a puddle a goo right you got to pull yourself back together again so it's a bit like that failure like you said failure teaches success failure drives success unless you know unless we're creating a culture of just mediocrity and well we are yeah what we are yeah oh that's a happy sign well you have to learn the consequences we you know you can't Nerf the world you have to learn the consequences of up and if you don't learn the consequences of up you you never understand what it takes there are people that work harder than you there are people that are smarter than you there are people that want it more there are people that are more ambitious there are people that are more intense and more focused and more disciplined and if they are not then somehow Or Another We're all perfect and equal and that's not the

64:48case not the yeah well this competition fuels everything we have like look here's a perfect example every year cars get faster why do they get faster cuz they're competing against each other Chevy is competing against this company they're competing against Ford and they're all trying to make a car that goes 0 to 60 in a half a second and every year they get closer to that I mean there's one reason for that and it's because there's other cars out there that are doing a better job their skid pad numbers are getting higher their quarter mile numbers are getting lower they're getting faster they handled better they're getting safer all they're doing this because of competition and that's the only only thing that fuels Innovation competition fuels Innovation and this desire that everybody has to I want to get the newest greatest right you know and that's and whether you're talking about

65:35cars whether you're talking about phones whether you're it doesn't matter what it is it's everything and human beings look why else they have the Olympic records why you why is everybody trying to break records I mean in the UFC we're constantly going over statistics this guy's won more fights this guy's landed more significant blows this guy's landed more submissions these these you're competing this is why people like watching things like the UFC is because it's contrary to this participation that's going on this participation trophy that's going on with little kids and the and like I said I go back to that same point which is that we're not fooling any of them in a sense no over a period of time we create a bad uh precedent and a bad mentality but at the moment the kids know what the hell the score is they know what the hell's going on and they you know and they know

66:19that it's it's when you tell them they're wonderful every time that they're not I mean if I told my kid you know every time he finished a practice or sports game you know hey you did great I mean it would it means all means nothing to him at a certain point and then he loses what he loses respect but he loses also motivation he thinks well fine if I'm great all the time what the I don't you know a better thing to tell them is you know this horrible feeling that you've got in your stomach right now use that as fuel fuel yourself with the fuckups fuel yourself with the failures but it doesn't mean we love you less like you your your parents and your friends are going to love you no matter what you know Randy Coture said to me once we were talking about Fighters and how he talks to Fighters that he's training and he said the most important thing is you can't be afraid to lose

67:04it's going to happen at one point in time if you keep fighting everybody loses but you have to think to yourself what what is important in life your family loving you your friends loving you they're still going to love you there still you're still going to be all all those pieces are going to be in place if you lose accept that and then go out there and do your best and as long as you've done your best you can keep your chin up and you can you can understand that whatever failure that you've experienced there whatever mistake this is a it's like a mathematical problem you've learned well you can't throw a one two and then drop your left hand you get hit with a counter right now you know but if you don't get hit with that counter right you never know if you go through life just throwing a onew and winning every time you think you've got the perfect game plan then you you you teach that to

67:51someone else and that that person realizes well no this game plan's no good you you got to keep your hands up if you don't keep your hands up you get hit these these there's a certain reality it's it's one of the reasons I keep going back to fighting but it's one of the reasons why people like fighting because it's so absolute other than subjective decisions cuz decisions can be but other than decisions when someone hits you they either hit you or they don't hit you yeah no it's very clear it's very decisive for the most part and you know there there is no about it's it's it is what it is as opposed to so much of the rest of the you know world or where you're trying to find examples or whatever where it's just gray and murky and I don't know if they same as a score if a ball goes in a net it's a it goes in the net that's it it goes in or it doesn't go in and to raise

68:35kids to this to have this foggy Concept in their head that it doesn't matter well no it does matter it matters a lot here's what does here's what doesn't matter your parents are going to love you your friends are going to love you if your parents don't love you because you didn't drop a ball in a net your dad's a piece of right and that's something we all need to learn yeah and there and there there parents out there like it ho we all experienc we've all seen them me I've seen them in the one of my my kid was going to soccer practice I was watching this Dad scream at his daughter and I was like God damn it dude don't do that go hustle let's go hustle let's go hustle like all the Sports terminology let's get that one we we got to need to get that one back we got to get that one like yeah if you're if you're a parent and you're living your life through your kids sporting exploits go go do

69:24something else encourage them and and give them what they need to succeed but don't don't value yourself through what your kids are doing in sports and there's so many parents out there that do that I I I coached for a while uh my daughter who's uh now in in college um she played a lot of softball and and so I was coaching at one point you know before she got to the point where I had nothing to offer and so they had to actually get coaches who knew what they were doing but I remember at one point there was this one dad who was just like a he was just a complete douche and he was always a douche and he' just show up and he' and he'd berate his kid and his was fantastic she was a wonderful and one time she actually walked up to me and she was she was you could tell she wanted to cry but she didn't she was she was a great kid and she apologized for her dad's behavior in The Dugout because

70:07the dad was like leaning over the fence and screaming and how old was at that time she was 14 I guess and it was just and I said look honey it's not your deal you're it's not your fault then I had to go over and I said look fella you're a douche and I said that to him and he was and I thought he was going to try to take my head off but he he was a big boy but he couldn't argue with me I think he knew deep down he knew yeah okay the guy's right I am a douche and I said you got to leave you can't come back and but for for a kid to apologize for their parents Behavior but yeah you're right you see it you see it fairly often parents get heated up there was a crazy story about a dad who killed uh another dad in a hockey fight yes you remember that the kids were playing the kids apparently had got into it on the ice and this big giant guy beat a guy to death beat a guy

70:54to death in front of his kid there was another guy there was a guy I think it was in Connecticut softball also it's girls softball you know they get very competitive but how the do you get so wound up about about any really really anything but so this guy this Dad went after literally got upset because his kid wasn't getting enough playing time and so the coach turned and walked away the guy picked up a bat and went after him and and hit him in the head with a bat and and put him in the hospital yeah how's that I remember that yeah he hit the coach right yeah he did yeah yeah cuz you know kid wasn't getting enough play I mean okay yeah my daughter needs more playing time competition and that's that's what people are afraid of with competition that's why they're coming up with this idea of participation trophies there's a lot of people that are moving away or

71:36trying to move away from this they want a Kinder gentler world and they think that that's the way to do it I that's why I'm happy to be out Idaho we don't we don't necessarily go for the kind of G World out Idaho it's too cold you have wolves cold you got coyotes and wolves and bears and that are going to eat you and uh and yeah so it's very much a sort of pull your boots up and just get on with it it's a it's a very good uh culture out there and and and it's a great place to raise raise kids you know and and I I couldn't be happier because it's the outdoor activities are just fantastic the climbing and the rafting are incredible uh skiing is obviously great fishing and hunting is fantastic I mean I sound like the Chamber of Commerce again no you do but it is a beautiful place I have a friend who has a house in calan and uh they send me pictures and you're just like Jesus Christ that's

72:22real that's a real place you can fly up to Spokane and uh the easiest way to get to C drive yeah you drive it's it's about 40 minutes or so you from Spokan but if you drive from if you fly into boisey and you drive up to calan it'll take you about a century and a half it takes a while big State yeah yeah but it's it's uh again it's it's it's interesting uh because that Wyoming and and uh Montana that whole part of the country or the yeah it just it's still a little bit different you know um the urban centers are all starting to kind of unify and become a little bit you know similar but I think when have to deal with nature when they're dealing with winter and storms and and just the the reality of being in nature it humbles you and it also hardens you a little bit to the realities of changing climates and the realities of just wildlife and all the dangers and all the

73:15the wonderful things that come from nature right and that's it and the expansiveness of it all kind of humbles you a little bit you get you drive up we we we're not we're very fortunate we're not that far from from Yellowstone I mean not far being you know a handful of hours drive and you go up to a place and if people haven't they're listening haven't been to Yellowstone good God you know do yourself a favoring and go there don't go during a high tourist season but if you want to see something that just is stunning spend a few days up in Yellowstone and it really does it puts you back a little bit and it makes you realize a how how amazing you know this this planet is B how how incredible this country is and it and it also kind of puts your priorities a little bit more in shape um we track we tracked a bunch of Grizzlies up there for a Travel Channel show and there were times when

74:00you just you'd forget what you were doing you just stand there and just stare out there at the at the scenery and you just you know there was and and of course it was a Travel Channel show I was supposed to be co-hosting and and yet I was just Gob smacked I didn't have the words you know which is not good for a co-host apparently you're supposed to be able to describe what you're seeing and I would just say man this is incredible they say okay you can't say that can't say that all it's Travel Channel and uh can't just beep it but yeah you would think so but I don't think they wanted he didn't want that impression um so but yeah getting getting out to Nature seeing seeing that environment seeing the wild bison and buffalo and wolves and all the just the the landscape and you learn also where your food comes from right and I think that's part of it too and that that that

74:42toughens like my kids you know they know where their food comes from they know they know what it takes to to go out hunting they know what what fishing's all about uh they understand it you develop a respect for it you understand that the world's not equal you know I mean all all those you know precious uh animals out there those bison are going to get baby bison I watched the baby bison get dragged down and you think you know and I was with someone who was on the on the production team that was like well we should inter we should you know get in there and help that what is he getting dragged down by W go getting dragged down by Wolves yeah you guys were there while this was happening and they've actually Yellowstone's done a wonderful job of of bringing back a number of things and there's there's a a fairly active wolf population up there the Bears are looking great the

75:23Grizzlies and everything it's just but the point being is that you know if you grow up out there I think or if you spend a lot of time out there you understand that yeah life isn't isn't fair right and and if we just keep telling our kids that life is fair and everybody gets to be equal and that's not the way it works and even in the human you know species it's not the way it works like you said somebody's always going to be harder tougher smarter you know more intense and that's a good thing well it doesn't here's the thing though it doesn't make you less of a person it doesn't make you loved less and I think people value there's a there's a real problem when people think that winning is the only thing because it's not the only thing there there's a there's a giant spectrum of things that we value we value camaraderie we value friendship we value intelligence and a

76:15sense of humor and someone who's interesting and fascinating to talk to there's so many things that people value out of a human being that being the best at one thing that you compete in is not the only thing in life right and this is a real problem with athletes once they retire because all of their sense of self-worth a lot of times is wrapped up in competition and they have been obsessed with greatness and then afterwards they feel this like Hollow sad life it's a big issue with Fighters a gigantic issue with Fighters because TR to find something that that takes that over right I mean a lot of times they turn to drugs because the the high of competing is so intense like so many classic situations where great Fighters turn to drugs Joe Lewis um Sunny Liston I mean there you can go down the line Aaron prior there's a lot of great fighters who turned to drugs later in

77:09their life because they just didn't know what the to do right right you're always looking for something that's going to fill that void I think and and that's one of my brothers flew f4s in Vietnam uh for a couple of Tours and he was one of those guys he was like that um was it guy's name uh Robert Duval's character in Apocalypse Now just one of those guys that you know you know he appreciated the moment right and he appreciated the The Rush that he was getting oh yeah I mean and so you know and but the point being is that you know he came back and it was like you know now what I mean he's a great guy he ended up you know being a senior pilot of the commercial airline and he's never had an issue but at the same time you could always tell that when you sit down where you know over over some drinks you know there's always that that was you know that moment in time

77:57you know or that was that event or that was that activity that I don't know you ever F that again you don't ever get to that point again and where it's you're experiencing that same sort of rush or that that that uh that challenge well you get addicted to hitting 11 when everybody else is hitting six on a good day a crazy day today I got up to six you know imagine if you Chuck Liddell you know how he's like oh what did you do today you did a mile you ran a mile you you know it's like the the idea of danger and reward of consequence these are these are all they're so intense to someone who's been involved in like really heavy competition I see with Fighters all the time this very reluctant decision that they have they're very reluctant to step away from the game when they've been knocked out a bunch of times and they start to lose their chin and they start

78:52to experience some cognitive is shoes and it's so hard for them and they need someone to step in and grab them and go listen to me man if you don't get out now it's going to get real ugly in the next couple years and you could you could reach a point where you're never going to bounce back you get a few more Knockouts three four more Knockouts and you might be for the rest of your life and we see it now with a lot of NFL players we we've definitely seen it with a lot of Fighters I mean Jesus look at the greatest of all time the greatest boxer of all time is a physical wreck Muhammad Ali is in the worst shape of like literally any public figure that has ever been So Graceful and beautiful in his movements and the way he talked and so charismatic and now you look at him and he cannot talk at all he cannot walk that is a direct consequence of boxing well like like you said look at

79:44the NFL and look at what they're finding now in terms of I mean and that's you know that that's filtered down to the youth you know you don't have uh full contact football at an early age it's a good move it's a good move yeah yeah a lot of parents now are just refusing to have their kid play play football well I have friends that you know they they'll they would let their kids fight they'll let their kids fight but they won't let the kids get involved in in football because they're like look if you fight and you get really good it's you and one guy and you might get hit and you're probably going to get hit but if you do your diligence and you work on your Technique and you understand footwork and you understand the Rules of Engagement and you understand like correct strategy as far as movement and do all your work in the gym and understand how to Defense number one

80:26that's the number one most important thing if you do that you're going to mitigate a lot of that issue you're going to there's a lot of Fighters that walk away from the game and they're okay it is possible to do look at Floyd Mayweather guy's 49 and0 and he's fine you might not like him but he doesn't get hit he doesn't get hit I mean the difference between him and a guy who decides to bite down at his mouthpiece and just Slug It Out and to see who's the last man standing yeah there's a a giant difference in his strategy and the consequences of his strategy versus a guy who just likes to put on a show for the fans that guy's going to be in a wheelchair when he's older yeah well I I just the other day I had to deal with uh with Sluggo the middle boy who said you know he want because he's been Jones to play football and so then he found out that the only

81:13League available was a flag football and he looked at me he's not that he what he's almost seven and he says well what's the point that was that was his comment what's the point I said well honey I don't know what the point is yeah you an interesting question I said so let's let's just focus on on other sports get involved in Jiu-Jitsu yeah that's what I always tell someone who's going to who's got a kid and they want to get their kid in martial arts I got involved in martial arts at an early age but I got involved in Striking but it was because there was no Jiu-Jitsu when I was a kid but if I if I had a child that was interested in competing I would get them involved in Jiu-Jitsu because you might get your arm broken but guess what they put you in a cast you'll heal up you'll learn to tap next time you know what you you'll get your arm broken falling out of a tree E when

81:57did you start how old were you when you started I got Ser well I started my first I took karate when I was 14 but I really got serious when I was 15 I took a little Kung Fu when I was younger than that but I didn't get serious until I was a Soph white right before like the summer of my um right before when freshman to sophomore so 14 to 15 during that time was there some reason why you got interested or well I've been interested cuz I was small and I didn't want to get picked on there was definitely that but the big thing was it was just straight luck I was a baseball fan I went to a Red Sox game at Fenway Park I was walking home and as I was walking home me and a buddy of mine were going to the you know the te the public transport there's a giant line cuz it was the baseball game had let out so we were walk by this Taekwondo school and I walked upstairs and it was this long

82:48staircase up to the J hun Kim Taekwondo Institute and as I was walking up just by luck there's a guy named John Lee who was the national tawo champion National light heavyweight champion and he was training for the World Cup and he was in just Peak training for the World Cup and I as I got up to the top of the stairs this I heard this sound this W and then this like like these CH like chains like sh wpink and I was like what the is that sound and as I got to the top of the stairs there was this area you had to take off your shoes and you had to walk in you could watch these guys train and John Lee was kicking the bag and he was doing this spinning back kick on the bag and bending this 100lb bag in half and sending it flying and I remember thinking I got to learn to do that like I couldn't believe anybody could hit anybody that hard I'd never seen anything like that in my life did you

83:45did the guy that you were with the buddy that you were with did he go up there too and he quit he started for a little B he he was a buddy of mine still a buddy of mine actually we're still friends um we watched it together and uh I became obsessed I joined right away interesting I joined right away that that guy be that guy John Lee became like a a big influence on me he he taught me a lot he was living in Boston yeah yeah and uh he wound up having um a lot of drug problems himself um it was crazy to watch as well but that guy taught me he he took me under his wing it's crazy you know just just to total random turn of events me walking up those stairs at the exact right time that that guy was there I mean who knows I could have walked up the stairs could have been a children's class right exactly exactly I would been like this let's go get the I walked up there and the baddest in

84:38the country was killing this bag fantastic it was just perfect timing yeah and and Life's a lot like that I mean you know there's this that happens and you you think wow that's you know whether it's happened stance coincidence or it's supposed to be that way who knows but uh yeah I don't know why I don't I mean you could add all this meaning to it and you might be right or you might might just be guessing but to me it was a a gigantic moment and decision in my life to go up those stairs and to see that guy doing that changed my whole life because that became my life and from 15 to 21 that's what I did every day of my life I mean I trained every day and that's what you got to find you got to find whatever is going to spark you can't you see parents do that all the time with their kids you know I wanted my kid to be a baseball player and they just push and push and

85:26push instead of saying look I want I want to expose these kids to various things and see if they spark them find the thing and because it's got to be part of it's got to be internal you can't I mean you can for a period of time and then then you know that's it it's not it's only going to go so far but if you can find that thing like you did with that Sparks something and the kid realizes you know I could become really good at this or and I enjoy it and it sets me apart it makes me different it makes me special that God bless you know if you can if you do that with your kids you're halfway home I didn't even know if I could be good at it cuz I didn't have any talent I mean it wasn't like I walked up there and all of a sudden I was the man you know I walked up there I was like holy I was surrounded by black belts who were kicking people's heads off and I was

86:08like this is insane it was just to me it was it was so terrifying but it was also in a good way it was very much like a cult because it was in a good way like they didn't take advantage of you but you had to Bow you had to say yes sir there was some intense discipline and you got to see some intense consequences to up cuz I got to see a lot of guys get knocked out you know I saw a lot of guys get knocked out in tournaments I saw guys get knocked out in practice and there was also the belt system the belt system I think in martial arts is very important for kids because like you start out as a white belt and you get that blue belt like you T like here's a perfect example Anthony Bourdain's 58 years old he just got his blue belt and he told me he was the happiest he's ever been in his life more more important than anything other than like the birth of his child it was

87:02like to him it was like I did it and here's a guy who like used to be a heroin addict smok cigarettes just drinking all the time was had a terrible lifestyle his wife who's obsessed with jiu-jitsu got him to take a Jiu-Jitsu class and then all of a sudden for whatever reason that switch goes look at him there yeah there he is getting his boob and for people who don't understand that is a very difficult accomplishment to get your blue belt is not easy to do it's very hard to do and that if you can get your blue belt you and he he's like I'll never get my black belt I'm like listen to me man if you can get your blue belt you can get your black belt just keep going yeah you know but it's that it's that like you said for kids it's that success which runs counter to sort of the concept of team sports right now anyway with kids so you give him that opportunity and uh I've

87:51got again the middle boy who's who's uh you six right now he's he's that kid who likes to know what what the uh what the parameters are and likes to know that there's a system in place right so he's the kid of all of and he's very aggressive too's he's very physical kid so that's we've been looking at at what's out there in where we live to see where it would be a good spot for him but but he's definitely the kid of the three that he looks at that and he goes I get it I can I can go from here to here to here to here and that's a good thing if you want to get him in involved in martial arts we'll talk afterwards and I'll find out what what's near you that would be good that would be find out what's good but I can't recommend that enough for kids for young boys especially because it takes away this fear of engaging with other kids it takes away away this fear of getting

88:36your ass kicked a fear of the unknown if you don't know how to fight you wind up getting involved in fights accidentally because you posture you stick your chest up and you you don't know just the consequences are so alien to you that you you wind up talking too loud or trying to Bluff someone and you can up and run into the wrong dude in a way it's like U it's it's like Concealed Carry Permits if you don't know what the hell you're doing and if you don't have the discipline and if you're not constantly training yeah there's there's a serious potential for up with that it's a serious potential for up and that's my own issue my my personal issue with all these states that are that are they're open carry states where you don't even have to have any training like I think it's kind of crazy like I think think first of all I'm a big supporter the Second Amendment I have

89:27guns so let me get that out of the way but I think you should learn how to use a gun before you should get one how can you how come I can get a car I have to go through all this I have to learn how to drive I have to fill out forms I have to learn the rules I can just go get a gun all you have to do is just not be a criminal and you can get a gun that seems crazy to me the training aspect of it is it anybody who's serious about about weapons anybody who's who's dealt with them anybody who's had to carry them for for uh a livelihood but you would gain a real appreciation for how uh quickly things head south and and and and the idea that I agree with you 100% uh and I'm a huge supporter of the Second Amendment um and uh I got to you know big old walk in safe and happy to have it but at the same time if I I just can't get behind the idea of people going out and and not training not not

90:18practicing and that's a large not a large but I and I have you know what I'm about to speculate so I probably shouldn't but there's a there's a decent percentage of people who go out they buy it and then and then they put it in a lock box hopefully they put it in a lock box and then that's it you know and then they you know maybe sometime they're going to need it and they don't know what the they're doing yeah so it's the it's the training and and you just have to be constant repetition constant repetition because if you do need to use it everything else shuts down and you know all your your little you know uh controls go away and you're you're depending on your big muscle mass and and and repetition and and muscle memory and and if you haven't been practicing you're you might you might as well turn it on yourself ex that's the same thing with fighting it's the same

90:59thing with everything when you're when you're nervous all the training comes out and that's you're going to fall back on your training if you train incorrectly you're you're going to perform incorrectly under pressure and that's the same with Firearms the same with everything yeah if you don't prepare but see we have this country where everybody's like you're trying to take away our guns we're trying to take away our guns no one's trying to take away your guns but I think uh it should the idea of firearms owning a firearm being a right I think it should be a privilege and I think much like driving a car is a privilege I don't think you should keep anyone from doing it just arbitrarily but I think you should prove that you know what the you're doing before you put other people in danger that's what we have with cars and by the way in speedboats too you

91:45gotten on a lake and you got some drunk who's never gotten behind the wheel of a boat before and all of a sudden he's doing 30 down the lake and you think what the some rich who buys a one of those cigarette boats and you ever seen those videos of those cigarette boats that go 100 Mil hour people flip them up in the air and everybody dies yeah like like a like a fountain boat you know those things are are insane and you yeah you'll get some you'll get somebody will'll buy one and then they'll show up on the lake next thing you know you know your kids's out water skiing and you're you're you know fearing for their life because But but so point taken I think you know you know uh I don't know how you would tie in the uh the purchase with the the training with the uh showing or proving the ability uh I don't know how you do that but extremely difficult yeah it very difficult I think

92:32a psychological evaluation isn't a bad idea either I don't think it's a bad idea to ask people a bunch of questions you know I mean just try to get someone who's a qualified individual to uh talk to this person I mean you're not going to you're going to have some psychopath going to be able to trick you but that's just you're going to weed out some folks that could be a problem and people have a problem with that well you trying to take away our guns what if these liberals get involved in this process and they say no one's qualified that's what they want don't you understand don't you understand it's a slippery slope it's a slippery slope do one thing and it's all going to fall to Hell uh no that's a HIPPA issue how do you how do you share medical information how do you sh share information from a psyches office and um I you know it's again and assuming they've had medical

93:21attention lot of nuts out there that have haven't had anybody look at them right no I I you know and the other thing is i' I've never woken up in the morning and thought to myself good God I got to get myself another 45 or I've got to get myself another AR-15 I and I got to have it now right I I I have no problems with waiting and we I've got teams in in my company that do nothing but but due diligence on people right and now it's not not for purposes of of a weapons permit but um I know how how difficult that process is even for relatively straightforward due diligence and so the idea that I I have no problems with expanded background checks and I know a lot of people you know right now are screaming and saying I you do that oh my god do but again I'm a huge supporter of of the Second Amendment I'm you know NRA member all the rest of that and I and I and I

94:06God bless it but at the same time we have to be able to uh find those those those ideas those answers or at least talk about them without immediately starting to pull the pins on the grenades and thrown them to each other and that's you know going back to the earlier conversation about politics and everything else it's you know probably no other well there's other emotive issues but certainly with the Second Amendment you know the idea that you're going to spend a little bit more time on a background check you know if if you got to rush into the store and buy your your your your handgun and get out of there as quick as possible what's up what's that all about I mean just take you can take a little time um there's other ways to kill yourself yeah so I don't know it's uh but again nobody nobody exists in the center anymore nobody exists in the middle exactly so

94:49exactly even a guy who supports a second amendment saying something like that could be problematic and you're gonna get criticized for oh my God if I run for governor out in Idaho I'm sure someone's gonna pull that one up did you see what he said yeah and you think how is that a problem I just don't understand how anybody could be against background checks it doesn't make any sense to me how could someone be against training How could somebody be against firearm education How could somebody be against that yeah when you when you get a hunting license you have to go through a a hunter safety course and the hunter safety course is pretty extensive it takes a long long time there's a lot of questions you have to answer you have to know why the is that the case with hunting but it's not the case with a gun yeah what about self-defense so shouldn't you have to have all these

95:35shouldn't you have to have an understanding of how to use a safety shouldn't you and then this the variations in training for uh or classroom work for Concealed Carry Permits you know you got you got great you know training programs and then you got less than less than great significantly less than great and you're talking about carrying a weapon out in public and that is an enormous responsibility and and I think it's important you know and and I think it's it's just it falls in line with what what we're talking about how do you how but how do you get to that point if as soon as you raise that issue again people start throwing hand grenades at you and you think well wait a minute I'm just I'm raising this as a possibility maybe there's something uh some other tact here that we can take and not you know not just the Second Amendment every every thing out there right um

96:22Obamacare let you know I you know it's it's either all this or all that instead of saying at the early outset we you know what would have been wrong with saying you know let's let's do pre-existing conditions let's keep uh kids on their health plans for their parents a little bit longer and then let's try to figure out where else we can make improvements but it's all one thing or the other I I think one of the things about owning a gun and this is is very important to anybody that has a gun you should want to be educated in proper firearm safety if you have a gun you should want this so training shouldn't be something that you would fight it should be something that everybody would Embrace if you have a gun you understand the dangers and the consequences of having a gun you also understand that you need someone to show you how to do it right I if you don't have anybody

97:11puts it in your head you know always have your finger off the trigger this is the safety know it know it when it's pushed back you know you you're you're here when it's pushed forward you're ready to rock like you know these things things understand these things well I think it's it's um there yeah if you live out west not again not to I mean because down south You could argue the same thing about hunting culture and everything else but there's a certain appreciation for um both the use of weapons and the uh responsibility involved because there are so many people out there that hunt and there are so many I mean I you know I I I would suspect that uh I mean everybody I know that that owns a weapon uh goes to the range they uh or they're out practicing they're Target hunting you know before hunting season show shows up or they're they're they're working the problem uh I

98:01don't know that that's true in in the major Urban centers I don't know I mean I I have no idea but um there's a few people I mean there's ranges that you can go to where you know I mean you can take Firearms lessons the thing is that it's not mandatory and then there's also the variance the the the the different rules that you have in different states like Arizona is an open carry state right right so you just go to the store you're not a felon you get a gun just walk around with a gun yeah on your hip and you think okay you don't have to know yeah and it causes problems I mean to to depending on who you're talking to in law enforcement it's you know there there's a lot of folks in law enforcement that look at it and go yeah I mean it's not it's not what they would prefer it's not up to them to to make that call but at the same time I you know I look at it and I think if if

98:51there's one issue that probably um summarizes um the the the the sort of the emotive nature of of politics nowadays it's probably it's probably this one I mean I think that we've gotten past the whole gay marriage thing and you know the abortion thing always flares up and and and always will probably but but the the Second Amendment you know and so you do think okay well how do we because the default position for the administration is always you know um it's always you know blowing it up right there and and so you know they misplay it as well well right I think if there was more compromise more discussion in the center where they could have this quietly outside of the you know the the realm of media but they just seem to be unable to do it so every time there's an incident the first thing you see is somebody from the administration up behind the podium you

99:38know making statements and talking about gun control and that fuels the other side that fuels the right and where the side where thinks they're just trying to take away all our weapons and because they see this and there's nothing reason going on here there's no reasonable consideration of pros and cons of this issue and no one's there's no one's stepping in the middle right you know what it's like it's like the FBI and apple dispute that's what it's like it's the same thing you got all on one side you got all on the other and the reality is you know what we could have found a solution here somewhere if uh you know if if if we'd been um I don't know although who knows I don't know Apple seems to be inclined to draw a line under this particular issue right now so this particular is is they're trying to get into that guy's phone the killer who killed those people in San Bernardino

100:27they want to get into his phone and uh the FBI wants Apple to engineer some sort of a back door well here's here's what it is they so this guy uh s faroo had he had uh three phones at least that we know about two of them he destroyed he completely destroyed them and and the the the bureau's been looking they they nothing recoverable off those systems and they've asked a lot of people for assistance so they had the other phone which was in his truck which is his work phone it was belong to County and so they went to the county Bureau did they went to the county uh when they pulled this phone out of the truck and they uh said we need to get the information off of this thing because you know what a phone a phone nowadays everybody keeps everything on their phone right right and so they uh they got the support they pulled and they found out that he had shut off the function that uh uploads

101:14data to the cloud uh in October and so they were able to get everything up to October but then that's two full months prior to the attack so they said okay well we can't get this and and the the the phone has you know this default position where if you try the password 10 times and it erases everything so they took the phone the bureau took the the phone to Apple and this was well before they had to go to get a court order well before it became public knowledge they actually went and had numerous quiet conversations with apple and they went to Apple and they said literally said you can take the phone keep it on your campus keep it in your facility put it on we don't you know wherever put it in your lab all we're asking is for you to create a systems information file that you can force on that phone that one phone and pull the tech which then allows you to Brute

102:03Force the password right to and get the texts off of there get the data off of there that exists and then you can destroy the CFT the systems information file you can keep the phone we don't even need to touch it we you know whatever you just give us the the the that's on the phone and Apple has has been helpful in the past they've been they've been helpful in past and this time for some for whatever motivation they've decided to draw a line in the sand and say no we're not going to do this and it's not as if they haven't been helpful and there's an ongoing dialogue and so it's it's disingenuous to say that Apple you know is now you know the bullwark for privacy because they have been helpful in the past and they will continue to be helpful I suppose in their own way but for this particular phone for this one time where they could have held on to the phone

102:52created that sift destroyed the cth at at that moment that they've pulled the textas off say that's it that's done so now what Tim Cook is saying is not that it's creating a back door he's not saying that he's saying it creates a precedent but the precedent was already that if the bureau goes through the the the process the Congress is set and then goes through that process and gets a court order and the court then looks at it and says yes you've got probable cause you've got reasonable you know concern here uh they provide a court order then they go and they make this request for assistance you're also talking about a dead guy talking about a guy who Shot 14 people 14 people killed 14 people um I've heard all sorts of things I've heard people say to me and I and again I understand don't get me wrong because I understand fully the importance of finding the right place on the pendulum

103:42for security and privacy I get that I get that and that's an important discussion I'm not saying it's not it's you should always have that conversation but part of that is then during the course of that convers ation Congress the courts they make those decisions where does that pendulum you know settle between security and privacy and then it settles here okay fine then that's what the bureau or whomever has to go through to get approval to get some assistance and that's where it it it stands but you know to say that because now you got all three branches of government have said yeah we think that really we could use this information off of this phone but I've heard everybody say well why don't they just do the rest of the investigation well of course they done the rest of the investigation they've done all the other investigative steps so what are you saying in a

104:27situation like this uh you just want them to do 80% of the investigation and if you've got you know that you've got material on here who which may lead to operational activity uh and finding other people who were involved or finding people overseas who who were in somehow assisting or whatever it may be if you're saying well just no you know what for the sake of this we're not asking for a back door they're asking for that that that that one phone and that's where this whole thing is is really headed south and it's become this idea that you know which is erroneous but I understand what Tim Cook is saying about the president although not really because again they've done this before for some reason for this one they're drawing a line so anyway but I've heard that why don't they just do the rest of the investigation and skip this part what I don't I don't I don't follow

105:14that logic train and then the other PE other people are saying well why don't they just get it off the metadata and and that's another one of those things where people never believed what the government was saying but the met data was numbers and volume that was it there was no information to be had there you could sit in a room full of metadata and not know what the hell you're looking at you had to go through the court process to then get that particular numers information so here's my question because this is what came up with the Edward Snowden thing they were saying that the government is monitoring all cell phone data constantly and they can get information all the time well this kind of proves that not to be true yeah but people don't look at it that way they don't they don't they don't make that leap back and say oh well maybe that was a fallacy yeah sure the metadata was

105:57sweeping up all that that those numbers and volume but it again it's not enough to what end yeah and so some people would say once they realize what it was actually doing then they say well but that's so what so they're just collecting this in the basement it's not doing any good so they shouldn't even collect that information so what Edward Snowden was talking about is essentially just when it pertains to email I mean he said they're collecting all this information that the NSA is collecting all this information data they're recording every they're recording all these text messages yeah um is that not true well no I frankly I'm I'm here of course nobody's going to again this is very emotive right so there's all people out there they're going to say you you don't know what the you're talking about CIA CIA course yeah no there is nobody right now unless you're a

106:45terrorist a terrorist suspect or a criminal there's nobody in the government who gives a about you I'm here to tell you that your dickpics are safe ladies and gentlemen dickpics are AB abolutely your vagina pictures that you've been floating around to all your boyfriends they're okay girls those are secure nobody's going to Route those around any anybody who would rat you out for those is a piece of and unamerican in the first place yeah yeah so that's a that's a really eye openening thing though because this case kind of throws that all into Jeopardy because everybody was like concerned like hey the government can check in on all your phone calls and all your text messages well this would clearly be a case where they would want to do that so they don't they can't do it here without did the judge granting this order and how what so tell me why did there was a

107:27recent court order that ruled in favor of Apple they did and that was in New York and that was an interesting case as well and that's set it's probably going to set a precedent for maybe maybe we'll see because it's a little bit different what the judge essentially was saying in that case and it involved a a a uh narc trafficking uh investigation that was going on and and by the way this isn't just for terrorism imagine what if this was for pedophilia imagine a large pedop feel your ring what are you going to say no we don't want to catch those douchebags that are involved in that because privacy you know I understand the Privacy aspect but each case has to be looked at on its merits and if and if you say through the courts and through the through the Congress that these are the the Hoops that the bureau has to jump through and they jump through those Hoops then then what then it's up to

108:14each company to decide whether they want to support it or not I don't know that that seems strange but anyway the point being is that the one in New York the judge essentially was saying well look you want us you want the courts to make it decision on this for something that Congress should really make a decision on this and so he in a way his decision was a push back against the concept that that that the uh the bureau was basing this on which is a very old law and so the judge is saying look you relying on a law that's a couple hundred years old or whatever um maybe instead we should be having this looked at in through uh the legislature and so there was a there was an interesting sort of legality to his his uh response to this but it it definitely uh favored apple and and and and sure that's great let's legislate it but do you think that just maybe um

108:59there are times when from an operational perspective you might want to move a little bit quicker than asking Congress to take up a an issue and debate it and then maybe eventually come up so maybe occasionally you're going to have moments like this the San Bernardino shooting where you've got a phone in your hand and all you're asking Apple to do is take possession of it and and who knows maybe their problem is they're worried that if if they create the Sif at that moment someone's going to steal it from them one of their employees so maybe they got an internal security issue because then they can destroy it the bureau's not asking for that phone back they're not asking for that c they're not asking them for to do it on any other phone what is a c it's a systems information file so you just force it onto that phone and that bypasses the uh the password so

109:41essentially what the court has done is made a very conservative conservative interpretation of the law right and and basically saying that this we don't believe this is a place where the court should be deciding we believe you should be taking this to Congress and so therefore I don't see why you're legislating or asking us to make a decision on this see I understand the common person's perspective they don't trust the government the whole Edward Snowden thing and the Wikileaks thing everybody's freaking out about that and then they look at this saying well this is the slippery slope again this is the thing that if the government has access to your phone but we're talking about a mass murderer and a guy who's already dead and we have one phone yeah yeah it's and and and so to say that you're going to um only do a limited investigation even though you know

110:28you've got potential information right is there a way to do it like on an individual basis just one phone only that's what they're that's what they're asking but can it be that you never Grant act I mean it's it's it doesn't make any sense to me you wouldn't want to get access to that guy's data and here's where and I think going back to that overriding theme which is nothing resides in the center anymore uh you're right I we do have to be concerned about privacy and I agree okay what happens if you know big brother but there are times when you know operational concerns probably override at least an element of this where you common PE or or reasoned people can exist in the common in the middle and say yeah on this occasion because you've gone through all these these orders and because we've set up this protection now meaning you know Apple holds on to it

111:14and but you know it that's not the way it works and so therefore Apple comes out and says and then the misinformation ah they're trying to create a back door to all our Apple devices by the way what do you think Apple does with their devices that they sell in China do you think the Chinese uh government would allow Apple someone got to talk about this in the media do you think the Chinese government would allow Apple to sell devices that they can't get into I uh we could ask Apple we should ask I'm sure it would be an issue but I can speak from a friend that I have that worked at Google they had a gigantic issue in China with Google because you know they have Android phones and that was that was a big part of the issue is the government wanted to have access the phones they also wanted to have access to what you're searching they wanted to know what people are searching they

111:58wanted to limit Google searches there was this gigantic issue they were having then on top of that Google uh was having to deal with the fact that China was kind of ripping off their system and creating their own version of it China is China is the largest state sponsor of uh economic Espionage and and cyber crime cyber hack coun and counterfeit they openly support counterfeit to the point where there's entire stores that have Apple logos they sell Apple products and none of it is legit all the computers are fake all the phones are fake all the laptops are fake none of it is created by Apple it looks exactly like this right here and it's just all man they don't have laws no stop that no there's not a rule of law there even though they've been they were talking about this for a while they've been saying oh you know it's a new day and and this is again this is why going back to that you

112:48know everything goes back in circles but the idea that we need a leader right now that's that's reasoned and and pragmatic and smart and you know cleare eyed is is you look at you look at China and you look at hey you look at their economy and their economy is is is heading south and if xingping their yeah their economy not it's not doing well um their uh growth projections are way off uh there's always been this belief that their numbers have been cooked in numerous ways uh X the head of China has been consolidating power he's been creating new security apparatus um he's been hiding behind the anti-corruption drive to some degree which is Again part of his consolidation of power um and and this idea that oh somehow this rule of law is coming up nobody actually believes that and they are continuing to be incredibly aggressive in uh economic Espionage I mean they're not the only

113:38ones obviously everybody acts in their own best interest but the the Chinese have I don't know four dozen plus academic institutions that are funded by the Chinese military the pla that have uh responsibility for um economic Espionage developing new new new means of basically stealing um they've got a couple dozen at least information Warfare units that we've identified run by the pla that are specifically designed to Hoover up intellectual property and research and development and all the rest of that not just from us I mean from around the globe and you know we um so the idea yes the idea that that we would do business there uh and and believe somehow that the uh the authorities there in China aren't going to have our they're not going to have whatever it may be a pharmaceutical company that sets up a facility out there isn't going to lose their R&D of course they are everybody

114:31knows anybody in a serious manner who's doing business out in China knows soon as you set foot in there and you establish yourself you know manufacturing or just uh sales whatever it may be your information becomes their information it's just going to work that way so well that's a problem too because all our is made over there a lot of shit's made over there including stuff from from Donald Trump um but who knows maybe he's going to bring it back to the States well I have a a friend who works for the bureau and he was explaining to me how Chinese Espionage works in the United States and how they catch people that a guy will come over here and live a completely normal life and won't look like there's anything going on with him whatsoever Family Guy no weapons no crime no nothing befriend someone who works in some sort of an intellectual capacity whether it's for some sort of a

115:21corporation that makes computer compter or something that works for the United States government that in rocketry or whatever they befriend that guy and then slow make their way in to the point where they say listen I know people that can pay you a lot of money for some of the information that you have and by the way this information is out there anyway everybody has an information and it could be much less um often times is much less threatening than that it's just like you you know I I need you know maybe I could I could have you consult with me on a paper that I'm writing you know for a very legitimate organization I me a lot of these a lot of these folks come over here and they start going to school and then they they get a grad degree and then they get a job and then all you know what what do they want well the Chinese authorities want them to get another job and then they get and

116:03eventually they end up at northr Grumman or they end up at lock or they end up you know so it doesn't matter Dupont Dow wherever it is information's of interest to them the Chinese are are a little bit different than than we are we we tend to be very targeted very specific in our tasking in part because we're a smaller operation than they are they devote a huge amount of resource to this but they just Hoover up whatever's out there and then they make a decision is it interesting or valuable to them or not and you know again people will say well you know you know you can't be Cory about this we do that too well you better hope we do it because it's otherwise it's a it's a hugely uh unlevel playing field otherwise we're Sweet Angels out in the field of murderous criminals right and we all we're doing is you know yeah we're all snow precious snowflakes all just trying

116:46to get together and not not keep score this is where Hillary's email problem becomes a real issue right because she by doing this and this sort of is in a roundabout way we bringing it all back puts it in perspective why it's so dangerous that she had this unprotected email because by copy and pasting classified information or deciding through her own decision-making process or the people that were with her what's what's okay to copy and paste and what's not okay to copy and paste and not whether or not you go by the established Protocols of top secret or not top secret or clearance or whatever clearance level you have you're handing that over and and and the the interesting thing is they don't necessarily care I mean obviously they you know they blows their skirt up to get top secret you know information but they'll take anything they'll take it all they'll take uh you know the daily

117:33you know dribble that goes on through her you know email and and just to gain a better understanding as to what makes a person tick or who are the people around here they're looking for potential targets and that's that's part of it you're looking for you know where is there a a in the armor where is there an opportunity to uh you know to get in to her organization is there somebody on the periphery could be a landscaper hey I now I know who Landscapes there great you know it's it's like you're targeting a company who are you going to Target you're not going to Target the CEO you're going to Target the cleaning service you're going to Target the secretary or the caterer you know you and so yeah I and again I you know I get it everybody you know it's like with Benghazi people roll their eyes oh the private email server but if you've been involved in this and you

118:15understand how aggressive it is out there you know not again not just the Chinese the Russians that you know everybody's everybody's at it um that you know we we we need to understand that it was it's it was a it was a serious problem it was a breach and and and again going back to the same thing if it had been me yeah sure I would have been done up you know if it had been somebody else it would have been banged up and you know and probably done time so it's a little it's a little discouraging that's kind of crazy that it is something that someone would go to jail for and yet mishandling classified information yeah I mean you can't it's a serious offense it's a very serious offense and and and particular when you're when you're a senior official good God you know she's a very smart person and she should you know so this idea that somehow she just didn't know

118:56or you know she was you know too busy or I don't know how my Blackberry works or whatever what a load of crap anyway so yeah well this whole Ed this brings us back to this whole Edward Snowden thing what what is what's your position on this on that guy and what he did and sort of exposing the fact that the NSA was involved in this wide scale this gigantic sort of information Gap gaing process the hoovering up of of you know metadata program that's that's that's gathering this stuff up well first of all again I think you know everybody should have you know spent a little more time understanding what the actual technical uh aspects of it were because his description of it though was problematic he was saying that people that worked with him were accessing the emails of ex-girlfriends and they were you know they were do maybe that might have happened well yeah it's a human system

119:46so yeah there's going to be some fuckups there's no doubt about it that's a problem well I mean I don't know what the in and outs of ns are you know in terms of their protocols for you know uh protection firewalls on on systems at uh you know at government agencies tend to be if they're used properly are pretty robust but at the same time you know any human system it's like it's like TSA is someone going to be asleep at the wheel and somebody gets through with a shoe bomb well it could happen because it's a human system but where do I stand on it no surprise and you know um again it's all based on what your experiences are and I get the fact that people you know consider him a hero or a whistleblower whatever they want to call it um you know he signed paperwork that said he was going to protect National Security interests that he was going to properly protect the information that he was

120:36given responsibility for uh seeing and he didn't he didn't do that and he also despite what people may want to believe um he caused a lot of damage it's a tremendous amount of damage in terms of information that was released about the way that we do things here uh sources and methods that um were of extreme interest to not just a terrorist organization but Extreme interest to um Russian interest extreme interest to Iranians that's weird that he's in Russia right now yeah I know go figure huh uh yeah uh so did he do any good I don't know did he do any good well you look having that conversation is always good but we could have that conversation without him doing what he did and um and and we should and part of that respon responsibility lays on a u an aggressive and inquisitive um constantly aware um checks and balances that exist within government so the Intel committee and

121:32Senate Intel committee and and all these people they they tend to play a game in Washington they know what the going on like with the interrogation program or rendition program these people were briefed they knew what the hell goes on but there's a political game in Washington where they they get to express outrage when something becomes a political football of course so um but yeah so did he do any good oh hey we're talking about it and that's important I I I again I keep going back to that I'm I'm not um I'm not un what's the word I'm not unsympathetic doesn't sound right I'm I understand I appreciate the importance of finding the proper place on the pendulum but I have probably an overriding appreciation for security because of what I did and I understand that other people have a overriding appreciation for privacy because they didn't have the same experiences or

122:17they've had different experiences and and and so that's great I appreciate that and all I'm saying is I look at it from from my perspective uh I don't look him as a hero or whistleblower in any way um I you know I I signed same agreements and uh I'm expected to live up to those just like anybody else who does he didn't he found a way that he thought was appropriate to make his point I don't have no idea what goes on in his head um I I just would have thought it would have been nice if if uh I don't know we made the point in a way that also protected our national security interests a little bit better how could that be done though well without exposing what he what what exactly did he expose he exposed the fact that they were gathering up metadata and that but there's been people that have said that it was more than metadata well there he talked about you know surveillance programs and

123:11here's here's here's you there's lots there were lots of little bits and pieces because he he he he uh he misappropriated he stole a lot of a lot of information that was then essentially if anybody thinks that Edward Snowden was smarter than the Chinese authorities or the Russians and that they didn't get a hold of everything and that somehow he just secreted that information with Glenn Greenwald and a couple others and you know are those who have interests that are completely against ours didn't get a hold of that information is a it's a pretty naive thought um last time I I don't believe that Edward Snowden is smarter than the PLA and the resources of the FSB in Russia I just I'm Maybe I'm Wrong maybe he's like The Lex luor of of it I don't think so but um as an example the surveillance program supposedly that that we had against uh European leaders remember the outrage

124:01with Angela Merkel right and the fact that you know we're listening in on uh some of her conversations the ones that we would have access to uh oh my god really really because you know what they're doing they're listening on the conversations of their allies and I mean the French the former head of the dgsc the French Intel service turned to the the head of France at one point when the head of France was you know you know Sac blur and suor and how could we be doing this and you know and the the former head of the Intel service looked at him french guy and said are you me are you kidding me what do you think we do this is what we do so this is just always what he's exposing is something that everybody knew so the mock outrage you're saying it's like mock out it was Kabuki theater in Europe for sure I mean all the ANS that supposedly yeah I mean they the hand ringing and all the all

124:45the I can't believe that the our Americans would be allies would be doing this so they kind of assumed that everybody's doing it already I guarantee you was going on in the back rooms was the Intel service directors were all you know sitting down and and I would hope to think that our our director was looking at them and saying what the you know and they were probably having a you know having a drink and saying yeah okay we get it we get the joke you know everybody's doing this and so the idea that somehow were the bad guy uh look the French Intel service is incredibly aggressive as an example um and there have been numerous cases where they've targeted uh us corporations for economic Espionage and the idea that somehow you know people should be shocked that uh one nation is is acting in its own self-interest and listening to other nations again same Theory with economic

125:32espit we better hope we're playing offense and defense in in the way the world actually works it'd be great if we all held hands and you know winging monkeys on unicorns flew out our asses and we could all sing songs together but it's not how the world works so we you know anyway yeah so that's me disappearing down a rabbit hole but but this rabbit hole is kind of important to talk about because you actually have some pretty deep knowledge about this rabbit hole and this is some of the things that get speculated left and right and back and forth and either you take one side or the other and everybody argues about it I mean no one wants the government to have unchecked access to your emails your phone that and that's what people are worried about again that's slippery slope that is headed towards that but what you're saying is that everyone is always spied on

126:16everybody's phone calls they've always been involved in monitoring leaders whenever they could and then it's it's not just it's standard it's standard protocol it's every nation acts in its own best interest sometimes it seems like the US is the only one that apologizes for it but if you if you did nothing else other than approach foreign policy from the perspective that every nation acts in its own best interest we wouldn't get caught short as many times as we do look at Putin I mean Putin absolutely is is he's an old school KGB guy he's he's always regretted that the Soviet Union fell apart he considers it a huge catastrophe uh the biggest catastrophe he called it of the 20th century and he's been busy ever since trying to figure out how to rebuild at least a a influence if not territory and 200 whenever it was five he he made his one of his first statements about how it

127:06was a it was a a horrible thing that the Soviet Union fell apart and then a couple years later three years later he the troops rolled into Georgia and they still own territory in Georgia and people don't talk about that uh abazia and South essia they've still got large numbers of Russian troops in there so he got that he got Crimea um you know eastern Ukraine is for all intense purposes going to become part of Russian territory and he's always been the same way he says what he means he acts in Russia's best interest Chinese are the same way we always seem to to feel like that's that's unusual I mean I remember times when we'd be engaged in in some counterinsurgency operation overseas and um we' dress them up and we'd give them money and party hats and we'd train them and then they go out meaning the the uh Foreign Service you know the foreign military and they wouldn't act like we

127:55would right there would be problems or there' be um human rights abuses or whatever and you know the Senate you know the Intel committee would say I can't believe this how come they're not you know well because they're a different culture just like you talked about earlier with the Middle East they you can dress them up and give them money and training and they're always going to act differently it's just the way the world but we never seem to quite get that and it's sort of like this acting in your own best interest we always seem to be well we do it but we feel like it's unseemly somehow Every Other Nation out there is doing it allies and and others everybody so is this a part of the problem with people getting access to information on how the world works as time goes on that information becomes more and more accessible and people get more and more

128:37upset about things that essentially have always been like this is that what's going on yeah I mean I think that's that's an interesting way to put it um so people have a problem with it but they don't offer up a solution or a I mean the argument is always the United States should do better we should be better we shouldn't spy on our our American citizens we shouldn't spy on foreign leaders we should be The Shining Beacon of democracy and of of of Honor throughout the world right and you know that's a lovely idea and we try that's kind of going back to what I said earlier I you know and people will disagree but I again I've spent a lot of time overseas dealing with with uh these issues and we try right we don't always get it right but we try to do that we try to be that you know that that bright Beacon we try to be the right direction all those things and and sometimes it

129:27works and and and sometimes it doesn't um we had a I remember one time I had a guy in a in a foreign service a foreign military we were sitting having a drink and uh and they've been engaged in a long conflict and anyway this guy says hey he says uh says thank you for for bringing us democracy and then he paused for a minute and he says please don't do it again and I always thought that was a great line I always thought yeah I get what you're saying um but yeah it's it's not that easy to bring democracy and bringing democracy doesn't really work it doesn't really work and and you know what we so yeah so what do you do you end up dealing with people that are on Savory you end up dealing with with countries that you know hey we'd love them to be more in step with us but it's just not the way it just not the way it works and so well it seems it seems incredibly confusing and I don't think

130:19anybody's ever offered up a reasonable scenario where you could take places that are like the Middle East and straighten it out like no one's offered like some sort of a step like or a a program or you can say well here's where they are now here's the human rights violations Here's the the real problems they have with religious freedom and this is how we can get them out of that and we can get them to a place where the United States is where people have much more freedom United States isn't free freedom is an illusion man it's an illusion well it's not we're not free no one's totally free there's no there's no total freedom but it's also uh it's also because of the way the world is yeah I'm I'm telling you I'm I'm here to tell you I again I've I've been to a lot of places and and uh we won the the lottery and I I realize everybody's coming from different positions and you know places

131:09in life and and and you know it's pretty up for a lot of people here sometimes and but this is a this is a good place to be overall and you know there still is the potential even though may seem far off sometimes for some people but there's still the potential if you work hard you can you can do really well in this country and and you know and and even those times when I don't know I maybe maybe I'm just kidding myself maybe I'd like to continue believing that and maybe who knows maybe it's not true I I you know I got young kids so I'm going to I'm going to continue to believe it's true I think it's true for the most part but I think it's complicated and I also think this is a very unusual place this country is only a couple hundred years old that's weird it's weird to believe that we mean really essentially found founded in 1776 I mean 200 plus years is not long at all

131:57you're talking you know it's going to what you're I mean 1776 you know George Washington knew the importance of intelligence he talked about the importance of intelligence in the Revolutionary War I mean the first I'll probably get this wrong but the first entry into the uh uh the what do they call that book of expenditures you know that accounting book that they kept anyway the basically the first entry was to pay for spies um and and and it was it was to establish a spy Network I believe outside of Boston and so they understood even at that time the importance of it so yeah to to to your point yeah obviously this has been telephones there's been people listening in and um and you need to check and balance that you need to ensure that it's not overreaching I get all of that uh I'm just saying that when you do find that point and Congress enacts the law and

132:46the courts you know go with it and say yes when you do that then and you're jumping through the Hoops that have been put in place and you've got a you know theoretically again the place to you know you would always like to think that we have committees up on the hill that are inquisitive and aggressive in their questioning and you know are are paying attention um but when all that is done and you'd like to think if you have an operational concern and you go through those Hoops that yeah you'd be able to get the job done kind of bringing it back to the Apple thing I guess so I think kind of in a lot of ways we're talking about we're talking about a lot of similarities that we have on one hand we have the the ideal Utopia we have The Shining Light of honor and dignity and then you have the dire consequences of the worst case scenario right and and we're trying to we're kind of in the the

133:37mix right and that's that's sort of life well that is life that is absolutely life and I think that's people it you know there one thing you learn in the agency is that it's not black there's nothing black and white about the about about the world and you learn the CIA is very good at teaching you how to sort of exist in in the gray areas and understand that you're never going to get all the information that you want you know if you it's not it's not like the beach books or the feature films where they get all the details and okay now it's time to go let's do that operation you know I remember most of the the stuff that I was doing most of the operations you know in the back of mind you're thinking boy I hope this doesn't get up you know because we're you're not if you wait for all the information you know before you you before you do something something bad's

134:18going to happen it's going to it's it's it's going to be a goat rope you got to get off the exit a certain point and usually that's before you have that full comfort and so you they teach you very well how to do that how to do risk versus gain calculations and how to figure out okay this is what we're going to have to but you you got to make a decision at some point the world would like it to be a you know again sort of a zero risk that's why we always talk about counterterrorism they're say well when are we going to get this over with we're not you know it's just a and to evolve as a species yeah yeah that's really what it's going to it's going to have to come down to something pretty astronomical to to have no more violence no more crime no more Espionage no more no more hate yeah yeah I don't I you know what I suspect that ain't happening in your lifetime or my

135:03lifetime damn it I know I know it's so disappointing uh what if we give everybody mushrooms I might do the trick I don't know that's it Mike Baker for president give everybody mushrooms that's that's your uh that's the tagline that's it you don't want to be president nobody wants to be I really think we should get rid of presidents what would we have instead I think a giant Committee of super intelligent people that aren't entirely responsible one not one Figure Head I think the figure head is a primate thing I think we always want the one alpha primate yeah the big silver back yeah the decision the whole leader of the tribe thing but that just can't work with 300 million people it's just too crazy and they all go gray so quick they get so old you look at them they there's so much pressure on those guys yeah and it's and and you know what it's it's also uh yeah I mean yeah you you

135:56look at President Obama yeah right he was a goodlooking guy smooth faed handsome young vibrant looking guy and now he look white hair not only that his face is falling off his bones the guy he's he looks so tired well he hasn't slept in years I was going to say it it the weight of that job um but you know someone has always shouldered it and somebody's always wanted the job but wasn't it a different weight was it different like he was dealing with depr the the uh the recession the depression and and dealing with World War II I mean I think it's always been it's always you know just a terrible job just a terrible job part of it I think that the biggest problem now is the speed of information right so everybody's a journalist on on Twitter uh everybody's a judge and jury you know through the speed of information uh nobody bothers to check facts anymore everybody's

136:50racing to get ahead of the news cycle which exists in in minutes now instead of hours I mean remember it used to be what you know like the 5:00 news the 11:00 news all day long journalists had time to check their facts and their stories and their sources because they just had that one newscast or two newscasts in the evening and now you know let's throw it out there and hope that you know we don't get it wrong so I think that weighs on on anybody who's in politics uh maybe it serves a good purpose as well it keeps who knows maybe it keeps him more honest I don't know but uh anyway I think has something to do with it look at Obama then and now look at this photo look at this jeez that's incredible that's a 20year difference that's a 20 year difference in less than eight years 2009 to 2006 January 2016 yeah if we could throw up like a seven year split on Trump now and see what Trump

137:40will look like after seven years in office he's going to look like job of the Hut his face is already Fighting Gravity wow yeah that poor guy he's so rich too one Jesus Jesus Christ what are you eating they're none of them are healthy how about Bernie Sanders ber Bernie Sanders is going to look like a question mark he's going to like Bend completely over yeah his posture is so awful already like someone should teach that guy how to stand up straight and he's not that much older than Clinton right he's only a couple years older than she is yeah well she's not holding up that well she doesn't look good well neither does Bill look at look how oh jeez they rolled him out and I think they realized right away that's a bad idea well didn't he have he had like some serious heart surgery right did he did yeah but he's a smart son of a and he was you know he he was fortunate

138:25in a lot of ways and he and he governed well and he understood the the the the importance of compromise and negotiation I think that and that was still at a time when you could do that I think I don't know whether it's still possible I mean look at the some of the that comes out of the you know the the Capitol Hill where you know I mean Scalia is barely dead people are saying we're not going to listen to anybody who gets proposed to you know come in here and replace him and you think well you probably could have held off on that statement for a little while well Democrats were so excited to get a liberal in there oh Obama can appoint a liberal let's go let's go and now he's the left curve and said well maybe I'll you know who knows maybe uh somebody who's a Republican and you can imagine that's you know is that what he said that's what he said yeah he said I

139:06forget what the guy's name is he's a former Governor I think sellout ob's a sell what about Hope and change now we've got to get Bernie in there because he'll he'll he'll you know Hold the Flag up high I would love to go camping with Obama just spend a week with him just get drunk with him every every night just tell me everything what the is going on what is that gig like the guy's only three or four years older than me it's got to be a good feeling too with that last day I mean I know there's probably there's obviously a lot of sadness and there's a lot of worry about well how am I going to be remembered but that last day when you finally get to hand over the keys get the hell out of there and go have you know a few pops and and not have to worry about waking up in the middle of the night because some disaster is going on yeah but he's still got to he knows too much

139:45so the consequences of all that knowledge you got have been weighing on his head all these pieces that are in play where are they going to wind up in a book with a book deal oh book deal de I don't mean that yeah but I mean his own conscience his mind and then also the fact that he's got to have secret service for the rest of his life he's driving around in bulletproof cars forever that guy can't go to the mall you give up your right to go to the movies wow I wouldn't mind if I didn't ever go to the mall again quite frankly I'll be president if that means I can't go back into a mall there's so much he can't do though yeah no you're right you can't go to the Ball Game buy a ticket at the last in the bleachers you imagine if you do that and say Obama comes sits down next to you with a dog and a pretzel and it's a Coke and a beer you know who would be selfie to yeah they would swarm him if

140:32he didn't have Secret Service they would smother him with selfies till there was no air he suffocate he died of selfies he probably should have held off on the whole selfie thing when he was in the white house so to be fair that walking around the White House with a selfie stick was I don't know selfie sticks are unprecedent yeah I think there's certain things you do and you don't do and whether it's him or whether it's any other president I I I think there's there's something to be said for maintaining the digity the Dignity of of an office look at him there yeah you go he now look at you hey how hard is it to take a selfie just by yourself man you don't need a camera to do that that just seems weird that ah yeah yeah that's odd what a sign of the times that is though seeing him there with that magic wand with a phone in the well did you see him before when he was

141:19like peering around the corner with his sunglasses pretending to be James Bond and you know what also I bet he has this iPhone 6 and not the 6 Plus because they well we don't want you to look excessive Mr President it's probably a decision go with a smaller phone Mr President be a little bit more approachable we don't want you outrageous like I want a Viper you can't drive a Viper Viper but it's an American car you can never have a Viper can you imagine if president drove a Viper a Ford Corvette convertible man big Elvis sunglasses yeah I'm free you if I if it was me and I I finished up I would drive away from the White House on my last day in an El Camino this is this is the fact that drives my wife crazy I've always always wanted an El Camino I've always kept my ow for you know what uh you give me an El Camino from every year uh it was manufactured and I would be a

142:12happy boy because like ELO there is I don't know why and it's it's it's it's irrational and my wife hates it because she thinks it's a it's a horrible looking car do you have one I don't I've got my latest one my latest buy was a was a uh a wagon remember the old jeap wagon ears with a wood panel on the side I bought I bought one of those and it's uh it's uh actually being redone at uh at bucks 4x4 in uh in Idaho uh for all your all your Automotive needs so you bought it and you're refurbishing it what year is it yeah it's the last year they manufactured it 91 91 and it's it got original shag carpeting in there and it's uh it's just a it's a brilliant vehicle got the big bench seat remember the bench seat you have the bench seat that was but those aren't good when you went around corners you slid all over the place well that depending on if you had the Girl by your side then you know

142:58that was yeah you take a hard left turn oh what are you doing over here those bench seats and and but everything's mechanical yeah almost you like that huh mhm look car that's a piece of that is not how can you say that look at that son of a that's a ugly car that is a car right there and you know what that thing weighs about 400,000 tons it is steel I tapped what the did that what happened to that one serious you you tapped oh that's been that yeah that's that's like a rem that's work on it yeah that shouldn't happen um you want it classic you want it classic that's right you keep it classic you like the wood panel oh you kidding me of course yeah jez who doesn't how can you invalidates everything all the common sense that you've laid out on this podcast the lasts bet there's a lot of people out there that would that would look at the the Woodside Wagoner and say yeah I get

143:50it that's a great vehicle or the El Camino to be fair um a lot more throwing up in their mouth yeah well well you know thank you for that um but yeah that's that's sort of the uh that's that's I know and then another the uh the 57 belir I'm a big Bel a that's Beau car that's a beautiful car there's no doubt about that I sit and watch for entertainment and and uh and my two older boys will sit there and just be happy as Clan's watching with me I'll watch Barrett Jackson you know auction you know and me too Fant a see look at that that me auction one time I got caught in a rabbit hole I was sitting in my house and it came on I watched it for two hours just watch people buy cars that's all you do it's insane and you know and and it's just there's so much in it look at that well there was a 1970 Challenger that's a that's a beautiful goddamn car right there wow what a car what a shape I know

144:42is that a 55 or 57 in the old days when that 577 it was what they would do is I mean it was all Bas on on aspiration right so we had the space program you know that was starting to build and you know and you could see it in in the vehicles you could you could see what that what that time was like by looking at the cars and and the excess of it all the the dreaming it's all the Chrome special look at that bumper god the shininess it's such a strange shape too so gorgeous yeah yeah anyway and then there Mercury Sun valleys Mercury Sun valleys are another good I could go anyway Nomads I mean just there's so many good cars out there but um girl went to high school with her dad at a 55 oh my God it was gorgeous it was one of those cars he get to drive it no no I didn't know her that well and he would never probably let anybody drive it but he would just drive by you know he's

145:37there was two cars in my neighborhood when I grew up there were one one uh my uh sister's boyfriend's brother had a 65 GTO convertible cherry red that was he was this guy was the king he would drive down the neighborhood and everybody go cff was his name it said chirps on his his bumper stick his uh license plate was chirps and he would drive this thing and he would slam through the gears and the the wheels would go cuz they had little skinny ass shitty tires back then and then there was another guy those cars so oh my God there's something about those cars to this day they commanding the top dollar now it used to it used to be you know you'd be in the 50s and and that was when the the big dollar were but now they they've gone back into the muscle cars you know yeah but there's a year that they go you get to where they're not worth anything like the 1980s right

146:30well you remember that point in time it was a very sad point in time when all of a sudden you realized the Trans Am the Camaro the Mustang they all started to look just the same and Mustang fell apart oh Mustangs were pieces of but now they're beautiful again yeah no they they they've done a good job of trying to revitalize that but there was that period of time when cuz Camaro used to be 68 69 remember the best 69 Camaro is one of the greatest looking muscle cars of all time and hugger orange they had they made a hugger Orange in and a color you lost me again you you had me and you went with orange if you saw this thing though it's a special it's a special color oh hug hug orange you got to look that up yeah anyway so uh yeah so I'm not sure how we got into that that's actually not bad that's actually not bad but you know what that 69 Camaro shape is so spectacular

147:20it is the perfect muscle car shape yeah I mean it's hard it's hard to beat it's hard to beat that that's about as good as it gets man and that's pulling top dollar now and well they're taking those now and they do what they call uh Pro Street conversions you know they take a car like that and they do everything they do a Resto mod so all the brakes are new they have modern suspension you know they have uh these um uh art Morris and Chassis that are custom built for those things so they take out their funky frames and they put in like a really spectacular well-designed frame specifically made look at that Fu those those things never used to show up at auction because it was like yeah look it's not you know it's not original but now yeah yeah well people insane there's still a lot of people that like original they're they want they want to die in a car accident those

148:09things you you hit the brakes and it's like you better be ready I'm having that wagon ear readone yeah cuz I got to drive those kids around in there but are you going to get modern brakes put in it and everything oh yeah yeah the whole thing's been been and uh basically you know what kind of everything except the wood are you going to do the engine yeah the a compl rebuild on the engine kind fuel injection because first of all that's what you want you don't want you don't want a carburetor oh my God especially in Idaho well I had it for for a while before I put it over at at bucks 4x4 all your Automotive needs gas in the carburetor start it up I'd run out there I'd be in a hurry I'd jump in and I think I do oh but anyway enough but if anybody out there is looking to sell their El Camino you get in touch with wow you're really that deep in it huh I don't know what I don't know I

148:53remember part of it is I remember as a kid I had you know I had a a great Hot Wheels collection and and I remember the El Camina was one of my favorites back then any to me it looks like a pickup truck the chevel yeah basically yeah know I can't argue with you you're right yeah I love chel so that to me is like why would you have that when you can have a chevel a 69 chevel one of the most beautiful muscle cars ever created but a 69l Camino like wow there there's the Hot Wheel yeah that's nice see I think I I think that's mine I think you got a picture of my very own Hot Wheel I got one of those sitting on my desk in the office people walk in they stare and they go why do you have this toy El Camino Google a real 69 El Camino Jamie let's see what a real one looks like not a Hot Wheel one say for nice one not a Hot Wheel one though that's not a bad looking car though the you

149:42know it's the front is so good looking yeah like do go down that one the one with the black and white right below that oo see look see the the back looks like though the front is so good looking the back doesn't look that bad but yeah you know it's a place to put your dog and you know so anyway I forget that you can't drive with your dog in your back of your truck out here we we that all the time can you was it illegal out here I I suspect somebody would turn you in right somebody would say how could you dare put your dog out in the back of your truck and drive down the street that's I was in Northern California this weekend some guy was driving around with this dog in the back of the car and my daughters are freaking out they're like he just has the dog the dog's just running around in the back like that's what they do we drive down the street and I see kids in the back of pickup

150:24trucks I mean do you remember that car remember that car yeah remember that car that had the plastic seats with the handles in the back facing facing towards the rear what the hell was that that was a that was like a Subaru yeah there was some kind of plastic little seats in the back where you could put the kids and they had little handles that was the safety feature was little plastic handles that the kids could hold on to as you drove down the road at the highway doing 70 mph after having a couple of martinis at the O club what is that a Subaru pickup truck thing I don't remember it was I feel like it was I feel like had a Volkswagen station wagon that had I got a picture of one but a Volkswagen station wagon oh wow oh yeah the real facing seat in that yeah yeah my yeah my dad had a Chevy that had the rear-facing wagon seat and we also used to fight me

151:08and my brother would fight over it and you know we literally would go to the Officer's Club my dad would have a few drinks and then he'd PP all the kids back in the in the in the Chevy wagon and and Barrel down the highway as we're all flying back and forth over the seats arguing with each other fighting about who gets the rear facing seat and there was not a seat belt to be had well you remember those Toyota Land Cruisers that had the seats that faced each other side facing seats fjs FJ 40 is that what it yeah it was fj40 right I forget what it was but it was it was not that long ago that because they they they they had those in the in the Land Rovers for years and years and years and including you know I want to say like 10 years ago they were still building those things in the back really yeah I think so not that I don't think so I remember it was an option on a cuz

151:53I got a uh I got a Land Rover one time and it was probably okay to be fair it was more than 10 years was probably 15 years ago but I remember that was an option to get was the the uh back seats face and I thought at what point am I ever going to use these yeah maybe the F fj40 but that was way more than 10 years ago see the fzj80 was a classic Land Rover and that was like I think they stopped making that 97 or 98 eight and That's a classic one because it has a solid front and rear axle and those can drive over everything they just we used to use to this day people refurbish them Land Cruisers are a great vehicle too you see those I mean those we used to put those things through all sorts of sh Laden special exactly all the Taliban had those Land Cruisers because they never broke down you build that exhaust pipe up over the top of the roof for the you

152:43know cross in the fs the fs all the fs in the desert the fs the the um the SN the desert snorkel the the Safari snorkel they would call it Bin Laden we've just released more documents from Bin Laden yeah yeah more documents the CIA released about 110 documents from the bin Laden raid oh that's right it was also about like what he wanted to do with his money when he died he wrote a will for his $29 million he had 29 million when he died yeah I'm surprised I'm surprised he didn't have more frankly his his dad was worth billions well it's just weird that he was living in some strange compound and everybody kind of knew it yeah yeah I know that was was bizarre we're having dinner tonight should we invite Osama I mean that no you kidding me he was in that weird compound in that H like hiding out yeah that's so it's so strange and we got lucky cuz he was he

153:34was looking to move he was looking to get on the move again I think he probably sensed in part because he he'd had some problems with one of the one of the uh facilitators that he had and he was looking actually to to to replace one of his people that actually dealt with him sort of his liaison guy between the pakistanis and Al-Qaeda and him and so you know we if we' if we'd held off or if we hadn't found him and then only had you know a month to plan you know it could have gone completely the other way we could have shown up and and would have been an empty Place uh because he was he was actively looking to move to a different location what kind of funny that the way they had to do it was do it in the middle of the night land helicopters one of them crashed break in and then shoot them that way what really they knew where the house was if we were really evil if we were evil just drop

154:24one right on the house and incinerate that well and they talked about that as a scenario and and the decision was look he's got there's there's women and children in there and how many people were in the house with him he had his extended family with him I you know there were there were uh I don't know seven or eight plus guards but the women and children were in there and so and the decision was made no we can't do that we can't we can't fire a rocket down there because we don't want to take out all those people that's an indication you know again I people are going to say well you you just want to go after the oil but um you know trying to do the right thing so designing uh an insanely complex operation like that just to save those people that were with him essentially right and to do and to do the right thing and and the idea being well maybe we can maybe we can recover

155:08him you know alive maybe we can actually is he the only one that died in that raid or other people died too right uh guards died yeah yeah and um did you ever see photos of him did they let you look at the photos his dead body M allegedly is anybody listening um no no it's just between you and me just us no no I didn't I didn't see no but if you did you can uh you could do something to let me know that you did you could just uh like to my left act weird act like you're trying to hide something right as I asked you the question I'm like he can't answer this question yeah but but no I was I me there's an insanely complex operation um you know full-size mockups you know put together of the of the uh of the the facil of the abadabad compound um again talking about what we were talking about before muscle memory right you know how many steps do I have to go you know I'm I'm here how

155:59many steps do I have to get to the end of this wall right you have to know exactly how his place is laid out where he could possibly be how do they do that well they I mean that's all that work people think that you know somehow we just rocked up on his place that was that was eight plus years of insane effort trying to locate him and then uh confirm it was him and then you know Design This operation and so there were a lot of a lot of moving Parts it wasn't just like we said oh look great you know now we got him pretty impressive that he was able to hide for that long yeah it is but there was a lot of uh accomplices yeah and mainly like the Pakistani Intel service um the uh you know incredibly duplicitous had someone actually uh as his liaison officer within the py Intel service and and there were a lot of people yeah that um had a vested interest in making sure

156:53that he uh stayed hidden and so uh I know people say well he was he was a Tall Bearded dude you should have been able to find him well it ain't that easy you know and and you know it's not as easy as in the feature films it just doesn't work that way um it's not no I know I know that's disappointing for a lot of people to hear but uh it was a great operation and uh but it's interesting that they've released these documents and and at this point in time and it is it's fascinating to see kind of inside his mind a little bit more and understand to what degree he did or didn't have uh sort of operational understanding of what Al-Qaeda was doing at the time um yeah so anyway for those of you that looking for something to read what Zero Dark 30 that movie how accurate was that movie um did they make up people yeah yeah like the girl who was like in charge of everything and over there

157:46telling na yeah it's a composite of people it's like it's like Hollywood does uh they do some things really really well they do the military Recreations very very well I mean it's incredibly well and um and then they they take bits and pieces and turn them into a character right which is what they do and that's that's the nature of it a dramatic representation of what kind of went on but not really they make it juicier so they story you got to condense it down you know if you if you showed what actually happened the audience would you know kill themselves out of boredom because you'd be an 8 years worth of of surveillance and 8 years worth of struggling to understand what One credit card receipt meant in relation to something that was happening over across the other side of the world all these things that go into this that nobody ever sees so they they you know

158:32they condense it down it turns into a movie and then and then you know up on the hill in in Capitol Hill they get confused and they don't realize that maybe it's a maybe it's a movie you know and and so they I don't know if you remember that uh curfuffle they had after they released it where they called them back and said well you know maybe you know over the interrogation program Maybe you didn't tell us everything you know and you think well no they just made a movie you know I mean because and there were people that were upset with you know uh Zero Dark 30 because they thought it it it put too much importance on interrogation and there were people that thought it didn't put enough importance and I'm thinking it's a movie you know it part of it just entertainment you know you're not watching a documentary but anyway well there's a there's a movie that they

159:11made I don't know if you saw it the um Fox Catcher movie MH that's based on Mark and uh David Schulz the wrestlers yep yep that movie is just filled with and it's a real problem for Mark Schulz who was an Olympic gold medalist one of the best wrestlers the United States has ever produced and they they there's a that's a that guy's alive okay his brother got shot by that crazy Dupont right but Mark's alive and they changed all sorts of in that movie that does make any sense historical about his career as a wrestler his career as a UFC fighter they they put the they they even changed the time where the UFC was invented they made the UFC they made him watch the UFC like almost like six or seven years I think before it ever really existed and then on top of it the guy he watched fight was historical character Big Daddy Goodrich Gary Goodrich was one of the

160:09original pioneers of MMA and he in the movie is watching Gary Goodridge fight Paul Herrera when in reality he fought Gary Goodridge in his first UFC fight also in the movie Mark Schultz isn't fighting in the UFC in his first fight he's fighting in some small organization and it's like kind of sad and he's fighting a a White Russian dude he fought a black guy named Gary Goodrich Gary Goodridge is a historical figure it's like it's historical fact in the world of mixed martial arts that Mark Schultz was like one of the greatest talents from wrestling to ever compete in MMA and Gary Goodrich was a real p er a guy was very dangerous and Mark took him down at will and it was kind of crazy to watch like how good of a wrestler he was well in the movie they bullshitted their way through all that he didn't even fight Gary was there was there somebody who served as a

161:02consultant oh who knows but Mark went crazy after the movie was released and went on this Twitter Rampage and we were supposed to do a podcast about it but he's he's an odd guy you know he's just he's he's very Elusive and he's talked about doing it I said look man let me know when you want to do it I'll fly you out we'll talk about it but he went on this Rampage about it on Twitter and then someone compiled a website where they talked about all the things that they got wrong in that movie and all the stuff they made up in that movie to make it more interesting but the story itself is fascinating that anytime anybody releases a story or anybody you know signs over something or anybody you know picks up a book and says I'm going to make a movie out of this and and yeah know that's it it's it becomes an editorial process it's like saying you know how does raw intelligence get out

161:46of the field and then suddenly become something that's not well it gets into into this editing process and you got a bunch of people taking a whack at it you know over at the National Security Council and eventually you know they've got a spin on it and I can kind of understand that if you're talking about someone who died before things were recorded like if you're making a movie on Lincoln you don't really know what he said you got to kind of put words in his mouth this in a little bit yeah what did he say to his wife let's make up some he said to his wife but Lincoln's not Lincoln's dead Mark Schulz is alive and he's not that old I mean he's in his I think he's probably 50 or something they talk to him about it did they oh yeah well whatever they talked to him about it he wasn't happy when the movie was released so I don't I don't know they made him look gay in the

162:25movie they made it they alluded to some sort of a weird gay affair with him and and Dupont it was they gave him frosted tips it was very odd it is very odd what they did I'm impressed you know what frosted tips are well frosted tips I I don't know they're out there sounds like a I know a lot of things strip club uh saying or something but yeah I know I know I know I know I know yeah who hasn't had fr pretend we don't know that's right I don't know what the hell that is yeah when I had hair iino I never had frosted tips but I could have I could have been talked in I could have gotten into I could have fallen into the wrong crowd of people in my 20s and I could have won you could been been walking to the Sea after that game at Fenway and found a walked upstairs to a hairdressers and said that's it that's for me and we saw the perfect guy with frosted tips and this would have been

163:14completely different conversation that you and me are having right now like ican from Top Gun remember Val Kilmer B Kilmer he's not looking as good as he did back in the Top Gun days he kind of slimmed down a little bit he got back to like a more manageable form but form he definitely shape he went he went full Trump for a while he just ballooned up to this strange sort of that's odd because he was a beautiful man movie he did uh he did uh there's the frosted tips baby come on icean look at that no's Air Force wearing that hair too how does a guy go from that to have you ever seen that photo where it's like LOL I used remember when I used to be Batman ever seen that picture where his face looks like a giant pie yeah yeah I saw him one time over at the Chateau Mormont I was sitting there working on on my laptop and I look up and he he was across the room I thought there something familiar

164:11but it was during his uh large stage yeah I remember staring thinking there's something familiar about that dude and it took me forever to figure it out and I finally I was about to close my laptop and I thought aha it's a it's a huckleberry guy there he is hey guys remember when I was Batman what the did he do did he just get into booze was he just boozing it donuts donuts and booze that'll bring a lot of people down oh no stop okay just stop stop doing this bring up some pictures of the Camino he got so big look at that look at his belly up there look at that one go up look at that one to the right look at his belly to the right oh my Jesus Christ now turning that roll down I don't want that roll well actually look at his face there he's not as fat with his face as he was in that remember when I was Batman he oh my God he got got a Travolta look there a little bit yeah

165:01what the man I wonder what he did people need to age better out in this town people need to age better they need to learn to age gracefully it's hard well you know what the doctor just tells you hey man I'm just give you a little little nip and a little tuck and we'll be fine you'll be good tell you what yeah talk about a slippery slope good looking man but make it a little better get some frosted tips and pull those eyes up a little bit just it's going to make your mouth a little bigger that's a weird one that's not a good one we're going to make your mouth a little bigger that's the weird one that women develop this mouth that looks like they could eat your head yeah they're they're they get this Joker mouth because they're pulling your face and in pulling your face they stretch they do something crazy where they're stretching your mouth they tighten the uh they

165:46tighten the Gina and they they enlarge the mouth and nothing wrong with Titan Aina I know I guess I I just realized what I was saying I think some medical procedures make sense yeah if I had a vagina I'd want a Titan yeah I know this is exactly what people would expect us to be talking about when I come in on the afternoon well on this podcast yes because this one this podcast will go south well will will it has I think it might have I want to ask you one question before we get out cu I think we're closing in on the three- hour Mark um the interrogation school that you were talking about like what do they do to you when you're in an interrogation school to try to get you to understand what it's like to break you allowed to talk about that uh to some degree yeah I mean what you go through is a lot of what the enh techniques are yeah I mean water boarding is done to to to us to

166:33our people so you got water boarded uh is anybody listening no okay just why do you keep telling me that I I keep imagining because we're probably actually just recording this you're just being nice to me there actually you're not even recording it this is just happening and it's going to go in the dumper streaming live yeah yeah anyway uh the point being is yes that enhanced uh uh interrogation techniques including sleep deprivation which is probably at the end of the day uh sleep deprivation White Noise stress positions um a an interrogation facility is a very uh finely controlled uh very uh labor intensive place and it's not like people think a it's like U Abu gra well Abu gra wasn't an interrogation facility Abu gra was a a military holding cell run by uh you know uh people that didn't have the experience they basically turned it over to Junior officers and people that

167:26shouldn't have been in there running a facility like that and it was completely wrong but an interrogation facility um you go in and it's it's it's all about doing your homework you don't ever go in and sit down with a a detainee unless you have done all your homework you know where you want this conversation to go you know the questions you want to ask you don't want to appear to be wavering you don't want to appear to be unsure and if you don't do your homework it's like a it's like a polygraph if if the polygraph operator doesn't do his homework a lie detector if he doesn't do his homework that that exam is do polygraphs work uh you know what in a way it's not a science so it's not it doesn't work in the sense that yes it will tell if you're lying or not it's a tool in the kit bag of understanding whe what kind of person you're dealing with so for some people it works because they

168:16feel guilty about everything right and so uh they remember that in In 1902 they stole a pen and now they feel bad about it so they're going to you know and and so the phys the physiology of it is is starting to react and that allows for the operator to go well there's something strange about that question they reacted a little bit differently they're breathing you know whatever may be the sweat they had a reaction they had a reaction now let's now let's go in on that a little bit but I guess my point being is that or interrogations or even negotiations or interviews I mean if you're out there and your job is to interview people well then you know you know what it's like you got to know who you're talking into and that's how it becomes effective but in in training yeah you go through all these things um and you know it can be it can be fairly intense but the idea Again part of it is

169:00to show well look this is this is what it does this is how you can deal with it this is how you you know you stay close to some something that's um that's that's plausible you know it's like a it's like a an alias or a backstory whatever you want to call it you know want to try try to keep it close to the truth you know the problem that people have in in interrogation sometimes is they'll say something that's not true now they got to remember that then they go back in for another session they got to remember what they said before now if they say another lie now they got to remember those two things and they pretty soon after three or four interviews they're trying to remember the string of Lies where what you really want to do is you want to try to keep it as close as possible to you know whatever the truth may be so that you don't have to spend all your time

169:43struggling to remember what was the hell I said last time so like if you lie to someone that you're in interrogating that's what you're saying no if someone's being interrogated or someone yeah I mean that's and or or you know the interview process I mean that's it's just so anyway I I don't know where I'm going with that other than to say that it's um it's and whether it's military whether it's mild outfit or whomever um it's an important uh part of training because you know again you have to understand what's possible now it's a it's a changed world right the doj and and and the White House and everything came out can't torture people anymore well you can't use enhanced techniques you know and and uh yeah so you know there you go and now people are screaming andh hand Tech that's torture that's all you do but I mean the idea being is all you can use is is the

170:26field manual the military Field Manual what does that mean well it means I couldn't break my my daughter with a military Field Manual you couldn't I don't think so no what is what is a military Field Manual and what I mean by that is I don't mean to be uh I don't mean to be um dismissive Flip or dismissive what I'm saying is once once people out there know what can and can't be done they know how much they can take they they know exactly what they can take they know exactly what's coming down to Pike and they're just going to keep their Yap shut and people say well but you can develop a relationship with them well no sure L that's what we did you know most of the time all the information we got basically if people took the time to go through doj memos and look at the the actual information most of what we did was based on conversing based on knowing who you're

171:08talking to doing your homework figuring out you know how the pieces fit together and talking to people um but those people don't have much incentive to talk sometimes if they know that well you can't do to them anyway right and so all they have to do is keep their mouth shut and you're you're saddled down by the rules the advantage of of uh enhanced techniques you should do air quotes when you say that enhanced techniques yeah do air quotes and what I mean by that is enhanced techniques um that seems like the perfect representative I know and and you know and there you go and I know that was that's also it's like everything else right it's like the um it's like all the other discussions we've been having in terms of you know people base this on their experience and so there's people that you're never going to shift off this position you're never going to

171:51shift off of this other position it was all torture or it's not and there's some things that exist between talking to a detainee and what is torture the United States is knowable when we don't torture people yeah well um yeah I I want them to think that we do I don't want to but I want them to not know what's in the kit bag okay so enhanced techniques so like when you say enhanced techniques um is sleep deprivation in the enhanced techniques thing so you can't do that anymore you can't what no what if you read read what what took place people read those doj memos and realize how much it was if they actually took the time that and and understand all the back and forth that took place between um the field and headquarters over well can we do this can I put my hand on his chest and push him against a wall well okay build a fake wall so it's not right can you do this okay no can I what can I

172:39do and there was back and forth and back and forth over what could be done and yeah okay it's not supposed to be nice and it's not pleasant and we can argue and I obviously people do I don't torture is wrong and we shouldn't do it but do I think that there were some things like as sleep deprivation or stress positions or what well you know like uh put your forehead against the wall and walk back you know and then you know I don't know so lean lean your head against the wall and walk back and and and and stay in that position for you know 15 minutes or whatever you make him do that uh what if they don't in the old days yes yeah I mean no people are pretty compliant in an interrogation for faity back when they didn't know what was coming down the pike right and that's why I keep saying the same thing I don't I don't I agree shouldn't be torturing but at the

173:26same time we shouldn't also be telling the hostiles what we can and can't do all right you say you shouldn't be torturing but what if you have someone who knows that a 911 is about to take place and you got to get information out of them what other ways are there if you have a small window of time it's not really the unsatisfactory answer is is not really torture doesn't really produce information I agree with with senator McCain and lots of other people about that people will say whatever they need to say to make whatever that horrible torture is to stop and so it's not from an operational I you know again I I understand there's a moral aspect to it I tend to just look at things from an operational efficiency point of view and it's not good you can't you can't count on information so beating somebody up doesn't get information out of them cutting off their fingers doesn't get

174:09information out of them but does sleep not that our not that our hostiles out there not that people that are after us wouldn't do the same of course they do that they um but they're not after accurate information they don't care it's a different it's a different world that they exist in if we're after actionable intelligence that you can count on then it's just a very very labor intensive process well there there's ways to get people to talk right well yeah I mean there up to a point psychologically speaking sure I mean there's ways to get them to comply get them and that's that's part of the process is you know uh in a well-controlled environment sleep deprivation or or white noise or how do you keep him awake what do you have to do for sleep deprivation uh you keep standing or you uh you know keep moving them from place to place or you uh you know pump in some uh you know Arabic

174:55music or a baby crying or whatever it may be um and you just keep them awake I mean it's again it's labor intensive because you got to keep checking on them making sure they're awake and but you do that in under controlled environment you don't you you know we're not talking about you know five days of this and and again if people took the time to understand or read they would realize there were a lot of of doctors psychiatrists involved that were saying yeah you can or you can't do this um it wasn't you know I again I I you know I I get conflicted because I understand why people are so emotive about it and I I get that um and I do agree there's uh you know you have to look at what you can and can't do and you have to be very very critical about that and you have to be very careful but I guess I keep coming back to the same thing is we're kind of giving up to ghost you know from

175:41now on going forward everybody out there knows what we can and can't do and so whether we were going to do it or not which we weren't in terms of the torture side of things they didn't know that and so you could you could speed the process up of getting them to comply to some degree because they didn't know what was coming down the pike and you keep them on the back foot and you keep them guessing and that's your advantage in a in in in a in a situation like that so um but yeah I again I keep going back to the same thing I get it I understand why people are are so uh you know and and to be fair the left really did a great job of framing the argument you know they really took it and said you're either talking to somebody or it's all torture well if torture doesn't really produce actionable information then it makes sense to not torture people right absolutely and that's that's my point

176:27yeah yeah that's my point and but you can't give them ecstasy and hookers either can't give them nice things yeah it's not supposed to be a pleasant situation and so people say I can't believe you would uh you know put somebody in a stress position or you would you know make them uncomfortable or you would keep them awake for you know 36 hours I can't believe you would well really I mean what what the do you want of course and we'd always try you'd always try to develop a relation reltionship with people that is in fact the best way to do it develop try to pray you know find out about their psychology try to find ways to get them on side to to get their sympathy or to bring them on board whatever you can do but um to just say we're taking all these other things out of the kit bag whether we're ever going to use them or not and here's all we can do you pretty

177:10much guarantee that there's a lot of people out there who are walking around in Syria and Iraq for Isis carrying a field manual in their back pocket who know exactly what you know we can do what we can't do now but isn't there ways we circumvent that by not doing it on American soil no no no no I know people like to think that they like to think that there's like some secret CIA holding place you could take people on the moon they could stick Rockets up their ass and they start talking a moon that would be be cly be that'd be a lot of money involved a moon station um like Guantanamo for for instance like a lot of dark has gone on in Guantanamo right um no actually you know what I here's here's where people would say I can't believe it um Guantanamo uh has always been more about um a a holding facility and you could argue that the the the depending on how you want to frame it if you want

178:03to say it was all torture fine then the torture or the enhanced techniques whatever for the most part took place overseas in uh facilities that you know we were running that were temporary or our host countries were running and that's where I would much rather have we treat people a lot better than some of our allies do frankly and particularly a lot of our Middle Eastern allies yeah I could only imagine there are a lot of guys in in in Guantanamo who would like to stay in Guantanamo right now frankly um then go be repatriated to the Middle East and really yeah oh yeah are you kidding me rather than rather than go back and face Egyptian Justice yeah or or the jordanians or yeah absolutely but I mean I again I know people are going to say well they don't actually want to clamoring to stand GMO don't get me wrong I'm saying that they are treated better in that facility than they would

178:54be if they find themselves suddenly in an Egyptian prison if they were interrogated by our allies so but haven't there been people that have been found to have been detained there that really were innocent let's put it this way uh did we throw out a big net and uh air on the side of caution when we're picking people up off the battlefield yes um did we do a lot of good by removing a lot of these people and some of the key players off the battlefield and out of the operational system within Al-Qaeda and some of their their supporting elements yes so it's not you know it's not a satisfying answer because it's not black or white it's not all bad it's not all good again like what we were talking about before the gray it's the gray it's unfortunate but a part of reality it's the way you know I don't know you know and and yes what are you going to do close it down and say well we're sorry

179:46recidivism rate for people coming out of out of GMO is is up in the the 30% out rate it's it's it's a third plus and well you think that actually going to GMO would probably encourage them to want to hate America more well you yeah I I got no no problem with that I think that's probably a fair statement um do I want them back out on the battlefield looking to kill us or our allies uh no I think we you know but again you know what's the answer what's are we going to close GMO and bring you know the 4 or so that we're never going to repatriate over to us soil H who knows I mean if the president gets his way I don't think he's going to get it past Congress but down right he wants to close it down and what does he want to do with there's 46 people that are being detain well there's 91 there but by the time you get to the ones that just aren't going to find a home I mean look the B Bush

180:38Administration and the Obama Administration we've spent years and years trying to find places for these people it's not like anybody you know didn't want to try to get these people sent somewhere else that's been a goal of this Administration and the previous one and they just some folks just aren't going to find another home so there's about 45 46 of them and the idea would be bring them back to the States I guess Jes and so what how do they catch these people and it's all various different ways right right right and and that was that was old days you don't you don't you don't hear us talking about catching a lot of people anymore and part of the reason why is because you'd rather just paint that Target and and and blow the out of them than risk your career uh picking up somebody and then getting accused of of you know mishandling a detainee um or or all the crap that can

181:25happen because suddenly they've decided you know a program for capturing somebody and bringing them back to Guantanamo or wherever is not appropriate so what you found over the years recent past is it's a lot easier to just smoke them than to pick them up I hate to say that I mean that's a that's a that's a sad thing to say but that's and so what does that mean from an operationally efficient point of view that means your pipeline of potential intelligence is drying up because you're not you're not picking these people up live it's just easier to to to whack them so that is a harsh reality well it's it's part of the the the way it's part of the way it works nobody wants everybody was getting their ass kicked for being you know involved in uh a uh approved program of whether it was rendition or the interrogation program or you know whatever as part of that or

182:13periphery and you know people look at the the Drone program and think well that's really expanded under Obama well no because that's just you just take him out you we don't want the heartburn so that's why the Drone program has expanded because capturing detainees is you think this Administration wants more people to put in guantan isn't that up that it's easier to kill someone politically like to have civilian casualties and the civilian casualties are pretty high with drones right well uh yeah I mean this again under the theory that nothing's going to be perfect they try everything they can to to limit that but yeah of course there have been civilian casualties no doubt about that but isn't it something crazy like 80% no no it's not that high it's It's You could argue even one's too high right I mean but it's not you know again once again the same thing numbers get thrown out on one

183:02side and and it's so it's not 80% it's not zero it's we've had we've had uh we've had unfortunate instance there's no doubt about that and and like I said one's too many but at the same time I guess my point being is the Drone programs expanded um in part because it's um perceived as uh cleaner which sounds awful it does and it is awful because again from an operational perspective I'd rather have my hands on that D to know what they know right and once you smoke them you're not going to know that so what if they come up with a way one day to actually I mean I know that they have something called fmri functional magnetic REM resonance imagery I think it's called where they've used it I believe in India it was a real problematic case because they convicted someone for murder because they had functional knowledge of the crime and people who I talked to this

183:58neuroscientist who was she was like a kind of an expert in fmri and she said that's a huge there's a huge problem with that and that would never fly in the United States because functional IM functional knowledge of the crime could have been established through her interrogation process through questioning through asking her about the case she could have functional knowledge of the crime scene so like proving it through an fmri she's like is not it doesn't work so what they're convicting someone on is something that would never fly in America but what if they could if they could one day figure out a way that sounds like minority reporter whatever that movie was with Val Kilmer before he gained weight no it was Tom Cruz yeah think it's the same one we never seen him photograph together you know that it's like yaser Arafat and Ringo Star were in a movie together man

184:49they were in Top Gun of course they were but what am I talking about I forgot I was I I had my memory wiped clean by seeing uh by seeing fat vcom so if I oh well uh you know what I got to tell you this has been I you know I I'm sure the viewers are are you know tired of it but I've had a great time this had a great time too thank you very much for doing this I really appreciate your your cander and your openness and you know exploring some uncomfortable and difficult subjects and uh and giving us some inside information that it's very difficult for people to get any other way you know unless they're talking to a guy like you it's a lot of it is speculation and and and and posturing and reading websites that might be completely inaccurate so I think you've you've you've helped us a lot really apprciate I just encourage everybody I mean just just read

185:36everything you can don't don't settle on one source of information right I mean that the right and the left make that mistake and and again you know we we're getting to a point where it's pretty up right we've got to find a way to get back to you know uh the center and and get done otherwise I don't know where we're heading but anyway i' that's that's my last little bit but this has been a great uh experience love the show and I really appreciate it and I'm going to check with you about uh my middle boy uh martial arts training yes please do please do I'll help you out thanks brother really appreciate it all right folks see you tomorrow we'll be back with Ian McCall we're going to preview this weekend's UFC and have some fun see you then byee n