Oliver Stone

00:12uh so thank you oliver thanks for being here man i really appreciate it and i really enjoyed your documentary i like you well not as much as you but i am a conspiracy freak when it comes to the jfk assassination and uh i i've been fascinated by it for decades and uh but no one is i don't think anybody is as fascinated by it as you and well i get the impression that you have the impression i'm a full-timer but no no not a full-time career well i know you do listen i'm a huge fan of yours but it's kind of fascinating that your your film the jfk film was approximately 30 years after the assassination yeah and then this is approximately 30 years after that we're still going through this and they're still withholding documents yeah it's really kind of amazing isn't it no it's not it's you know everybody's dead from this from that era but it's all the more important that we

01:11understand our history because it's it's fading but the reason we're in this kind of disbalanced situation in the united states where we have no less and less trust is because of the past and if we go to this particular incident in 63 it's a it's a demarcation point it's a turning point for the country and i that's what's fascinating to me because i have a historical interest i've written and made the untold history of the united states yes i'm very interested in the history and i just think we have to pay attention because the roots of our problem are here and do you want me to talk about that or do i'm sure yeah please i you know what uh i i'm gonna i have to generalize because from the time he was killed in 63 that november we think about it not one american president not one and you can name them all have ever challenged the military or the national security state or the intelligence

02:07agencies not one they haven't been successful they've cut the budgets occasionally but not by much but essentially they keep going up the defense department has record year this year 760 billion dollars who says who says you can't to the military or to the intelligence agencies they seem to have an inordinate amount of power kennedy was the last one who was trying to curb it and he meant a serious effort towards peace he was the last president to talk about peace very nobly and people have said oh he just talks but no he was doing things and we can talk about that too yeah that's why it's important it's crucially important this country has gone the wrong way since the national security state has gotten bigger stronger more money more paranoid less trust in every which way the cynical amongst us would say that that's inevitable that whenever you have these situations of

03:01power especially when you have you know what people like to call the deep state but what's essentially this group of people that never leave office and they have incredible amounts of power the the people that are in the intelligence agencies the people that are in the pentagon the people that are in all these positions of immense power but they don't get elected in and out they don't have four-year terms yeah and that these are the people that the president when a new newly elected president has to check in with and it's very dangerous uh situation because it's a frozen bureaucracy yeah and they die off but they they they're replaced by insiders and as a result we are the we're the we're the biggest bully on the block around the world no question we have the most power inter-militarily supposedly in the clear in every which way yeah we tell other countries we intervene

03:54we often tell our allies what to do or we make them do it we have we declare ourselves to have enemies and we we keep insisting on it uh we talk about uh china we talk about russia iran korea north vietnam i mean north north korea uh cuba oh yeah north korea cuba and don't forget venezuela that's a major considered a major threat although these threats are inflated over infl over-inflated and we should we can talk about each one of these individually but that's what i've done you know my spare time in documentaries i've done ukraine i've done russia with putin and i'm very interested in what we call enemies and i keep seeing this this over inflation of it because why think about orwell remember the old george orwell in 1984 you know the the state exists to fight a perpetual war or prepare for war that's what we've been doing since 1945 six after world war ii we didn't stop

04:57world war ii we start moving into world war iii we said that our allies in world war ii the russians were a great threat to our country although they were depleted their energy was depleted their money they were broke broke broke we had promised the money we cut off them payment the moment roosevelt died truman cut off the aid payment that we were sending to them some 10 billion dollars and since that time we just keep we've we pushed the cold war and we have to we're gonna discuss the whole cold war if you want but it was really think about life before 1945. think about we were in a war with hitler right it was a war that was forced upon us we went in very late in the night think about the 1930s and the 20s the roosevelt the franklin delano roosevelt was recognized the soviet union he was one of the first he was the first he he was had a vision for post-world war

05:51ii which is beautiful you have to understand that there was a vision of a world dominated by the great powers it would be the united states uh in britain uh china and you know and you and ussr at that time uh that was the four powers he envisaged that would control and he believed in the united nations he was it's a shame he didn't see his vision come true he died in april of 45 truman took over and it was a different the moment truman took over with his group the soviets were seen as the enemy right away right away there was no going back on it um speaking of this this idea that the united states is the biggest bully have you seen this video that was recently released from china where a chinese representative is talking about julian assange and uh the the chinese representative is uh saying that the united states has no moral high ground to stand on when they talk about

06:50what is going on in other countries particularly in china when with what they're doing to prosecute and to force julian assange to be extradited to the united states and the way they're going after him for what's essentially just being a journalist and exposing what many people believe is war crimes yes and that that speaks to what you're saying is that like we have rules for the rest of the world yes and we don't follow them ourselves that's correct yeah we uh the assange cases are these are very typical of what happens at the when the the state becomes scared of its position it gets it uh it's it's dissidents become enemies of the state and the same thing has happened to some degree in china yes and they are paranoid about it and you could say you but the to draw an equation between our power and their power is wrong because you know a bully he goes around he

07:45scares the neighborhood right he he works for a certain period of time but he's a hated individual there's fear because he's there right yeah i've seen your move i've seen your you know you talk about martial arts you think about it as a movie the guy is always kicking ass in the neighborhood and until the new hero comes along right and deals with it and he generally he wins the new hero wins but the new hero wins by not enforcing that kind of fear on the rest of the people you've got to have modification of behavior that's what's nothing wrong with our power i think the united states has power to defend itself no question but we have to modify our behavior to behave in a humane way with people and recognize people's differences but that seems to be less the case as we become more disciplined more ironed about how we have to how they people have to behave

08:37we tell them in your country you can't do this you can't do that now some countries are different they have different customs different cultures they don't have to agree with the way we run business we call it democracy although a lot of people question the democracy inside this country i mean we you know what the elections are like here it's become very suspect elections itself and the money behind the elections i mean it takes a fortune to get elected you go to washington i mean i think it's hard to get an audience with a congressman i do think you have to pay money in order to get the ear of a congressman uh so it's you know our democracy is not functioning in the way it was meant to function and uh other countries and we want other countries to restore their democracies but their democracies it works better in europe to a certain degree because they

09:25don't have long election periods they have short election periods control then the money is is very hard is well controlled they don't allow private the private sector to take over the elections as we did here in this country with the united nations with the united uh supreme court's decision allowing uh corporations to exist as individuals yeah that was a tremendous mistake and if you go back and look at where this country took a bad turn i would agree with you that it seems like it was during this time period where jfk was assassinated that jfk had these ideas getting rid of the cia he wanted to uh pull us out of vietnam he only wanted to send me you you talk about this really in detail in your documentary the the new documentary that's available right now on showtime yes and uh revisit yes which is it's so thorough how long did it take you to make that a year and a half uh

10:23it's on showtime now it's a limited they have a 90-day hold on it and end of february it becomes available widely and we will get it out while in the united states but it's available in foreign countries it's in about 15 foreign countries uh but still the united states is listen we're lucky to have gotten the show time to do this because they're a good company they've given me a platform in the past with my putin documentary as well as my untold history of the united states yeah kudos to them because it's a controversial subject it's a very complex subject and for you to be able to cover it in such incredible detail the way you did from the beginning you could tell from your documentary you can tell from the beginning there was a concerted effort to um to pin the blame on lee harvey oswald and to without a doubt remove any evidence to the contrary yes the yeah you're jumping around so i

11:26mean the i was going to just finish that candidate the kennedy thing you know remember that he he resisted war yes people get this confused because they say oh he went into vietnam but no you have to look at the whole thing the way it was he put he avoided war twice in cuba and this is very important to remember the bay of pigs was a setup you know the cia controlled that operation they went in they expected they knew that operation would not work unless the united states came in militarily to back up that invasion of cuban exiles they expected it because eisenhower would have done it in the past they got used to it in the 1950s that the united states went back to cia kennedy made it very clear that he would not put u.s combat troops into the into into cuba made that clear or give it air support unless unless they were established a beachhead he was willing to to meet them halfway

12:21he was saying okay we'll go if if you succeed but it didn't succeed it was from the beginning because castro knew it was coming he was he knew about this seven days eight days before maybe more and they were they were stranded on the beach as a result that started that was a few days after he became president in april right he had very little experience but he was shocked at what happened and he took full responsibility for the debacle he said i'm the responsible officer of government which is a very good thing to do he established a hierarchy but he really wasn't in charge and he knew it he told de gaulle and he also told other people i'm not sure i'm in charge of this government because they have a secret branch of cia that does what it does the military definitely is not controllable all the chiefs of staff were wildly against him including curtis lemay air force chief they

13:11they saw him as an inexperienced young man although he had been in war and he'd actually been heroic had a heroic situation there where he really earned his he earned he was in the navy pt boat and he saved saved a lot of men during that horrible experience he had in the south pacific but aside from that he wasn't scared of the generals because he'd been in war i guess that was what i'm trying to say and yeah the second thing he did was a year later and this is crucial people don't quite get it is that when the the missile crisis happened in october of 62 this was a key moment for kennedy this is what signed his death warrant i believe he didn't go in he didn't invade everybody in the pentagon including eisenhower including his senior civilians uh experienced and said go into cuba take them out because the russians had put nuclear missiles into cuba okay

14:07and this was against all america you couldn't do this 90 miles from american shores it was against violated the concept of america as a sovereign country it was no question that he had to go and he didn't this is very important to understand if he had done it we've now found out that the soviets yeah they had not only they had a lot of troops there they had a hundred thousand troops roughly it would have been it would have led to one one it would have built up into a nuclear a nuclear explosion out of cuba somewhere else somewhere else in the in the ocean the blockade ships would have blown up one thing after another khrushchev the russians would have reacted that we would have reacted over and then step by step we would have been into possibly an armageddon with russia although we had way way far more nuclear weapons than russia did that's what the reason the pentagon

15:00wanted the war then they wanted to wipe out the soviet union this is very much in the back of their minds so they wanted to do it the same way we had done to hiroshima and nagasaki yes i was beyond that too i mean way beyond that i'm saying this it's important to realize they're thinking it was that they're thinking was it now we're in we have a tremendous advantage in a few years we won't the the soviets are going to build up and they did in the 1970s they got practically to parody that's what reagan was talking about you know he said we have to take on the soviet union the same thing but in the 1962 period it was possible in their minds to win for a strike blow them up we take a limited amount of casualties wow 20 30 million people do you remember dr strangelove yes that was just the same kind of thinking kubrick got it right that was our thinking we can win now

15:53wipe them out get rid of this threat and just lose a couple communism will be dead yeah although there was china of course in the background but they were willing to take out china too they had plans for that on that when it got to its worst point in that crisis in those 13 days they had plans for china off of okinawa wow it was going to be a real conflagration and they would have won that war so to speak i mean hopefully a male and a female would survive it but hopefully that's a male and a female and that's what kennedy was up against him and his brother robert his tremendous story and it's been told to some degree but i don't think people understand the passion of what was happening in that moment and i think he saved him and khrushchev because khrushchev was very much on his side in that regard khrushchev was also had seen a lot of war of course installing at stalingrad

16:41so those two and and uh and robert and various people around them saved saved this situation pulled it out at the last second basically it was very close to going over and that was the that was the end the military never trusted them again they said this guy is weak he's a weak sister and they said this is gonna and uh this is he's gonna he's emasculated us this was the whole idea and what led in in the following months of this all his planning around him was to basically uh end his reign because he was definitely on the road of changing the american way of peace he wanted peace more than war and he talked about it and of course there's a huge complex out there what eisenhower talked about that would have been out of business i mean he really wanted to cut back on the concept of going to war so you have to understand that he pulled out of so if he doesn't go to war twice

17:40in cuba think about this why would he go to war in vietnam and he said this six it's 6 000 miles away why if you're not going to defend defend the united states against cuba would you go to war in vietnam to defend what defend the united states from vietnam this was a thinking they couldn't they didn't understand that i have to say also he didn't go to war in laos which eisenhower advised him to before that so he avoided war it's it's amazing that eisenhower was the one that was doing this when eisenhower's the one who had that speech you know at the end of his yes yeah it's a great speech i love it but want some coffee no no just water but that speech is what everyone points to as being the moment in time where the military-industrial complex is recognized but the fact that eisenhower wanted him to go into cuba eisenhower wanted him to go into the

18:29laos that eisenhower wanted war yes well he didn't want war why but he thought it was the right thing to do he thought it was the right thing to do because we could pressure the soviets down that's what he felt and uh that's what john foster dulles and alan dallas the cia chief also felt that very strongly that we have to push the soviets hard to make them back down and that was not the right reading of the soviets the soviets were paranoid beyond belief about us their hardliners are the ones who threw out truth jeff a year later he got thrown out of office too so say hardliners in the united states hardliners in russia are the people who got rid of khrushchev and kennedy that was their payback for for being peace warriors so did this great speech by the way was kennedy's speech yes in 1963 in june the peace speech that's the most important speech you ever gave

19:16which one is that he called for peace i'm talking about a concept of peace where everyone our children our mortality the very air we breathe we have in common with the soviet union which took so many casualties in world war ii it's you should reread that speech yeah well i put it into the documentary a piece of it when you look back at when the military-industrial complex started to take hold is this a function of what was built up during world war ii uh because yeah yes when after world war ii the united states had had employed all these men millions of men and they came back to this country there was this tremendous fear of another depression starting again and vandenberg the senate majority leader told truman he said you've got to scare the american people into reacting that's the only way you're going to get money to to to keep to keep this military going it's going to demobilize

20:15which it did to some degree but we have to keep spending we have to keep building weapons of war to prepare for i suppose they all thought the russians were coming what was the reaction at the time to eisenhower's speech when eisenhower had that speech about warning about the military-industrial complex i think it was regarded with like this is a nice old man he's on his way out yeah and you know he's wishing i think personally i think eisenhower had guilt for it he knew he had the biggest buildup of nuclear missiles nuclear weapons in that time period i think we went up to 25 000 nuclear weapons from 2000 3000. it was a tremendous buildup and it continued into kennedy's time because of the budget the way it worked kennedy was shocked when he came into office he was relatively he was had to be a realist to get elected he wanted he talked he talked a

21:06harder line than nixon yes that's where people get this confused in 1960 election he was calling for he was saying there was a missile gap between us and the russians which was pure he based that on with in faulty information the truth was the moment he got into office he sent a secretary of defense mcnamara over to the to the pentagon to check this out a few weeks later mcnamara came back with the information that no we're way ahead of the soviets in our missile capacity that was never true so in other words kennedy ran on a platform of being a coal warrior he had to be he couldn't be elected in 1960 against richard nixon just because of the climate of the country the climate of the country and that's the way it was and that's why 1962 happened i believe i think the people were different than the people in washington i think the people had different feelings they were scared there was

22:00a lot of nuclear fallout stuff it was talk of nuclear war strange love on the beach don't forget it was a very important movie there it went around the world people were scared of nuclear war so there was a desire for peace and i think the people expressed it in their love for kennedy because he was starting to change the polls all showed that however he did have a very tough election coming up in 64 with barry goldwater on the from the conservative side growing in power goldwater was a significant speaker a threat and very much a hardliner kennedy was very precarious position when for example he didn't want any to go any further with vietnam he put advisors in he put advisers into vietnam when he came in yes because eisenhower started the policy of helping vietnam we cannot lose vietnam the domino theory will lose asia all that stuff kennedy didn't quite see it that way because

22:55he'd been to vietnam in 1950s as a young senator with his with his brother actually and he had talked to some seasoned diplomats out there who were more of his thinking than the pentagon thinking and they had told them that this yet the french are screwed in vietnam they're never going to get out of this mess and they didn't it was a war like the war we had years later where they were undone by the guerrilla and the desire for independence and the guerrilla forces they were fighting it's such i mean i'm listening to you lay this out and it it's just occurring to me and what an immense task it is to get into office not knowing all this information that's right not having real access to what the actual data is you get into office and then you have to deal with a multitude of world-changing events and world-changing positions and all and you're dealing

23:51with it all as you're catching up i know it's amazing it's a crazy job berlin yeah berlin right don't forget he's gonna and then don't forget the the ongoing threat of cuba cuba yeah dulles had launched the the cia chief alan dulles not had launched the cuban expedition against had dis they decided to do on bay of pigs before he came into office and on top of it don't forget also he comes into office he didn't even know that they had we've been participated in in the patrice lumumba coup in the in the congo now kennedy was very interested in africa and people don't know all this story but he really got involved heavily with dag hammershot who was a u.n president in in in in in africa when lumumba was killed because of our machinations over there we wanted to get rid of them we had a plan to get rid of them whether we were the ones who pulled the trigger no i'm

24:47not sure because the south africans and the and other people were involved belgians were involved but still he was killed no one told him for three weeks then he got the call from the cia and they told him that he he was shocked and his face we have a photograph of him in the film when he hears about lumumba's death so all these problems come on his plate right it's a very difficult situation for him that's why i'm saying he was had to be he had to be very careful in running for reelection he knew the problems i was a very seasoned politician he'd been around for a few years and he didn't want to sound like a uh what do you call a peacenik no definitely that was out of the he had to keep saying things like we were going to help the vietnamese south vietnamese but in truth was that he had no desire to help them if they were losing and he made that very clear and that's in the film

25:40too because we found a declassified file from the sec deaf meeting of april or may of 63 right before right before his death and in that meeting mcnamara who represents him says we've got to speed up this withdrawal of troops speed up this was all of troops and at that point he knew mcnamara knew they were losing in the south vietnamese he knew it so what i'm saying is that kennedy and mcnamara together were willing to pull out of vietnam win or lose and that's a he couldn't say that publicly right because the re-election the national security action ban madam 263 calls for the withdrawal of the first thousand troops serious withdrawal but there was an appendix where all troops out by 65 but he didn't put that in writing and this we know about now but we didn't know about it then i got a lot of flack when i made my movie in 91 the original from about he says it's about

26:39withdrawing from vietnam kennedy never intended to withdraw from vietnam that's it's clear as bell because mcnamara not only wrote it up after uh after my movie came out he wrote a book called i forgot the name of it he said same thing he said kennedy it was pulling out so did george bundy that's national security adviser excuse me i got to pee you made me drink water you got to pee already yeah yeah good good second oh geez we'll be right back with oliver stone how aware was kennedy that he was in danger was he at all aware oh yeah oh yeah in fact he had that irish sense of tragedy he went to ireland before he died and he he kind of knew it you know do you think he knew that they were going to try to assassinate him oh he knew about that because there were several attempts already were there other attempts oh yeah i didn't know about in the documents that's right we go into

27:33chicago that's right in tampa now can you just give us a brief uh outline of those okay there's a lot of information here yeah in chicago in early november of 63 a landlady complained about four cubans with arms in an apartment then she oh that they rented briefly and uh two of them were busted two of them disappeared and the two that were busted were interrogated and let go which is strange yeah there was also a patsy that was similar to oswald same profile as oswald he'd been a marine he'd been in japan at an air base he had expressed his dissatisf another airbase not the same one not in tsugi and he expressed his dissatisfaction with the united states he defected to russia now this program this defective program that russia seems to have been institutionalized by the cia and they sent a certain number of people there to get information about russia now why do you ask i always wondered

28:36that question because back in the 50s they didn't have land-based information very good land-based information they had to get it from sending people there because they they could watch the the ussr from u2's which is what they did and satellite photography but uh the guy that was a valley was his name uh he uh he was also stopped but he disappears don't ask me what happened with his details the point is that kennedy was aware kennedy yes he was but he didn't really get the whole picture so it brings in the story of this black see black secret service guy who who was became his friend it was named abraham bolden who he himself had appointed he looked around on his inauguration he said in his inauguration day in 1661 he said how come there's no black agents here protecting me it's very interesting question bolden became his his choice to go and of course he ended up in trouble

29:35because he he's the one who pointed out the details of how badly handled the secret service did the did the intro used the information and uh he was busted on false fake charges went to jail it's a whole story that's another story no this murder this murder has so many mysteries i mean sherlock holmes would love it yeah you can you need a microscope to get into this and you have to go into all the details because it goes in so many directions there was a plot in tampa where he was same same setup a motorcade go past a tall building where you have to make a a sharp turn and in that building they went crazy they searched the whole building but there had been a tip off couldn't find anything and uh kennedy uh went ahead with the tampa trip he cancelled the chicago trip he went ahead with the tap a trip but the same kind of profile the guy was a cuban who was going to take to fall and

30:34he was a member of the the the dre the student students against uh against castro there was a lot of anti-castro anti-castro protests in cuba new orleans everywhere texas all the south wherever the cubans were and they were a lot of it was anti-kennedy because he had been twice he had not gone in on cuba so they felt like he'd betrayed them right it was a seething hatred for him how much of a a shock was it for him when uh he got a hold of the operation northwoods papers when he found out that the joints you know that's another he laughed i mean he thought that was horrible idea well it's so crazy to read well it's not so crazy but when you think about it's it's the realistic that's the way they operate once they put something in writing like that it becomes more and more feasible well also you know when i talk to people about conspiracies um and i bring up operation

31:28northwoods i say you know no one went to jail for that you understand that those people the joint chiefs of staff that signed that like they they stayed in office and if you understand how anything works things evolve if this is how government was run in the 1960s you can bet your ass that there's some sort of similar but more complex version of it in play in 2022. well if obviously people who are talking about 2001 would point to northwoods as a as a father the grandfather of this operation because it required among other things planned to invade cuba that was the whole idea right we need another justification could you please lay out operation northwoods or people don't know what it was a series of papers that came out because of the assassination records review board the result of my film they found so much i mean but basically that operation called for an invasion of

32:20cuba through provocation like things like having cubans killed in the air domestic airliner blow up and going down over over guantanamo bay yelling or under fire were under fire and people would die you know and then they blamed on cuba everything would be blamed on cuba there'd be bl opera sabotage operations the united states that would be blamed on cuba um that kind of thing and it was all done to get people enthusiastic about going to war with cuba this was a home this is very important this is crucial to understand that's this is very crucial because i do believe that was the motivation for the assassination the cuba thing was really the thing that set them off forget about berlin forget about the day taunt with russia forget about the nuclear p peace treaty it's a nuclear uh atmospheric treaty that kennedy signed with khrushchev that was a big treaty

33:17forget all these things forget vietnam twice he'd failed in cuba this created a tremendous wave of expectation from cubans who hated them so it's be this is where the cia and cuba kind of intersect they use the cubans very well because there's a handler in florida called george johannines gets involved with them very interesting character we'll come back to him if you want the cubans are used used everywhere on the map in texas florida new orleans oswald is soaked in them he's as a he he comes back united states this crazy story he's soaked with like you know soaked in the mummy becomes a member of uh the fair play for cuba committee which is by the way started by the cia it's not really a legitimate organization he becomes a member of that and he the cia started both sides they started the cu the the student movement against uh for against castro and they started the uh

34:21fair play for cuba both sides of the equation that's typical of what they do can i go back one second because it's true it's a complex situation and people have a field day with going after jfk here because jfk had nothing to do with the assassination planning on castro how do we know this there's an inspector general report inspector general the cia did a report back in 66 67 for uh helms was asked he was richard helms was the head of cia lbj there had been this whole scandal thing jack anderson was a very famous colonist he raised these issues and said that had said that the cia was involved with uh with cuban groups to assassinate castro using mob figures okay and this whole thing started to stir up in the in the 60s after after kennedy had been killed we started to hear about it of course the warren commission wouldn't allow anything like that to

35:22come out because alan dulles was on the commission they never heard any word about any of this stuff it started to come out johnson who was president at that point wanted to have a full report and he asked he made helms richard helms give it to him helms is a character that is slimy it goes way back but well that's another story there's another you need to be sherlock holmes here lbj right says write me the report the guy writes uh the ig guy who's supposed to be honest inspector general writes a report and it's the whole story the whole bananas everything and he says in the report there is no evidence of any president that means eisenhower or kennedy knowing approving of any assassination attempt against castro crucial to understand that so and that's robert kennedy included because there's no evidence that we have found all the research community that says

36:17that robert kennedy knew anything although the cia after the assassination made it a best effort to plant them as assassination people in other words this guy seymour hirsch wrote a book and the assist halpern who was one the number one assistant to helms halpern was help was his main source and put out all these stories about camelot really being planning the murder of castro that's why you hear this over and over again noam chomsky of all people picked up on it and keeps repeating it this is just not true we can't find evidence of it and the ig report points to it helms didn't want to give the report he had one copy he gave to lbj that's it lbj reddit it disappears into the files and the assassination records review board gets the ig report finally open what is it two thousand what did i 20 now 21 you realize that that report and the historians keep the historians

37:20actually was available in the 1990s i mean i don't know if the historians have a responsibility to read these papers they didn't and they keep some of these historians keep making the mistake of saying kennedy was behind getting rid of castro kennedy was in a tough position on cuba yes he had to move against cuba at the same time he wanted to save his alliance for progress alliance for progress was a huge social experiment he started in latin america very important 10 billion dollars and they really he didn't want to do military he didn't want military the military governments of south america to be putting the money into military stuff so he put it into education agriculture everything he could he made this tremendous effort and it's it's a wonderful story of course johnson closed it down and put back the money back into the military regimes brazil followed the coup in brazil

38:11followed but where was i i'm just trying to say on cuba kennedy had to give the notion that he was doing something the whole time in these years at 62 63. so he started operation mongoose now mongoose is very disputed mongoose was run by joe edward van sale he's offered an operative who was in and out of philippines it was a whole story with lansdale but cia never believed operation mongoose would work they thought it was pr meanwhile the cia is doing its own thing with gangsters people like uh johnny roselli people like william harvey can you explain operation mongoose mongoose was another operation to subvert the cuban regime uh to blow up things to but not kill castro to blow up things just destabilize the regime like northwoods all these plans are coming in from different departments to to derail the cuban revolution why cuban revolution is can is very influential all through latin

39:14america that's why kennedy wanted his alliance for progress so he wanted and he made his uh his thinking was that if i can get castro to back off any kind don't with my alliance for progress we'll let you be we're not going to come after you you can have your regime but we're going to prove to you that the alliance for progress can work do you think that kennedy knew how the the structure of the the all the intelligence agencies and the deception and these uh using agent provocateurs and establishing these false flag events do you think he was aware of this before he got into office or was this so this is probably very shocking he was shocked by the uh bay of pigs shocked him his brother he was at this he said they lied they lied to me and he thought he was in charge of the government because the narrative i've always heard about the bay of pigs is that he them by not bringing in

40:07airspace that's of course that's the right wing there it is yeah that's all you ever hear yeah yes in those terms yes he failed the man got stranded on the beach and he failed to send in air cover yes because he said so he wouldn't do that and if they had done it it would have looked like america's being the bully all over again they're bombing the the cuba which was what was expected of america he didn't do it he was announcing a new kind of america crucial to understand and i think the bay of pigs is a fine moment for kennedy and he had to take the fall for it but he was furious behind the scenes at dulles in his group the more he found out about it and this is right after he's got into office as well april yeah so he's just he's waking up yeah he's waking up to 61. and that was a rough year did do you think that he was aware that it was the cia that was trying to

40:59assassinate him or was it unspecified forces unspecified he knew i i don't think first of all he fired dulles that was a huge uh bonanza i think that was a great move he fired dulles bissell richard bissell who was a schemer planner and cabell he fired them but he didn't clean house richard helms steps in as the major domo there be mccone he appoints mccomb john mccone who's an establishment guy to run the cia his first choices is is too liberal and they they destroy that possibility henley stevenson liked the guy in this and so mccone goes in helms really runs the show mccone is is a super is a figurehead he's sent overseas to visit the stations helms is the guy he runs the cia now what's fascinating and by the way he's the guy we need files on you know a lot of files that's what he's another one of these operatives who knows a lot who was never really pushed he was he

41:59was questioned finally by the church committee now these documents that were recently resealed they were supposed to be released that the body administration decided to like keep them under wraps till when it's uh some very long distance in the future now right which ones no i think they're finally coming around but they have to clean the files they they i think they were surprised by the amount of work we got the amount of information we got out of the files not we i mean the whole community of researchers yes these people are experts they know the technical language they go into these files like like uh like ants yeah no they the the community of people that are obsessed with the jfk thank god it's pretty cool it's amazing there's a lot of nut cases yeah out there but those serious people are really good and they're the ones that kept this case alive well it's a thing that a

42:50conspiracy theorist really looks to i don't use that word i think true seeker is much more okay we'll forget about that that word but someone who's interested in uncovering the truth about this assassination the the the type of person that has that mindset that's interested in uncovering the truth about any historical issue this is one of the best ones that's because there's a historian does yes there's significant evidence and there's significant evidence that there is a conspiracy significance i mean i would say from the beginning there was yes when you have a shot from the rear and a shot from yes well i was going to get into that so when you detail so brilliantly in this documentary all of the people that were involved in manipulating evidence whether it's autopsy photos whether it's the uh the evidence about the actual shots where they were fired from the impact like

43:41where the exit wounds was all these various people that were involved how many people knew what had actually happened because it seems like there was a a concentration of people that was not small and one of the things that people who uh like to uh use the pejorative term uh conspiracy theorists they always want to point to people can't keep a secret what the they can't they had to it's a giant maze it's so confusing yes that no one would be believed if they were right the one part think of it as a department of this uh departments of this somebody pops up and says i know this so he disappears in the maze it's another piece of information yeah there's been no attempt by government to follow up on this at all they dismissed they had the hsca in 1978 right that came about because of pressure and a lot of that was classified still and disappeared for a while we got it out

44:39all that stuff they they decided that there was a probable conspiracy based on the acoustic evidence of the motorcycles but we don't want to go into that because that's a whole other story acoustic evidence from sound from the pre-recording in the front yes yeah well the shots the shots the the physical evidence of the the impact on the body is that's more important way more important and way more obvious that first of all the establishment of the magic bullet was one of the most preposterous things that the united states public has ever accepted and i think we did a great service by driving a stake through that heart of that vampire because it's been around forever well you detailed in so many different ways too you detailed all the various ways that they had tried to establish it once they found the wound in the back they tried to establish don't confuse it

45:27first of all the magic bullet there's no chain of custody on it the fbi lied and we proved it in the film yes he did because the times don't match right when it was given so the fbi down and out lied now hoover of course uh never beli you know one had to believe wanted to believe that oswalt did it alone he had to because they put themselves in a straitjacket they said three shots they won not three shots it was probably four or five shots three shots one assassin who why what's his motive he was a perfectly reasonable young man he was in the corridor being yelled at and he said i need a lawyer i'm a passion yes yes you know the guy didn't behave like he was proud of what he had done no this is what he they said he was a communist uh an assassin who they had this background of visiting russia of course we found out they we found out the the community found out that it

46:18wasn't everything what didn't meet the eye it was a whole other story going on what about the oswalt had been an associated with the cia yes not that he'd been an agent but he'd been watched by the cia for four years that we know without a doubt now because of what we declassified angleton james angleton the counter-terrorist chief had had a file on oswalt since before russia they knew him they knew what he was doing up until the week well apparently they he just they disappeared his flash warning about a week before the assassination which means to say you don't need to check oswalt if you're a secret service you see them somewhere on them on a parade route you'd have to clear out those type of people they get this secret service is very aware of people who have backgrounds who could be dangerous they took that off the signal on oswald the other thing is that oswald was

47:10working both sides clearly that he was working with the pro castro and the anti-movement but the ci set up both yeah i set up the pro and the cut right so it's it's very clear that they were they were well aware of him dip him in the cuban poison sheep dip him make him look like a commie who loves castro that was the intention i believe i believe that the cia was so upset about these two near invasions of cuba that they this was a chance by killing kennedy to get the united states to move against castro and this is what johnson this is where johnson is not you can't blame johnson because he felt that there was his pressure right away and he said to the warren commission guys he said look there's a lot of pressure to point the finger at russia and china and russia and cuba we don't want to do that because we're going to have a nuclear war if we do that like 40 million people

48:03are going to be dying that's what he told warren warren was went white you know in those days it was very serious 40 million people my god he had all the weight of the country on his shoulders and that's why he accepted this lousy job as the chief commissioner so johnson used that story but johnson believed i think he believed it i think he believed there was i think he believed in some way i'm not sure he let me put something that's very important marvin watson was his aide to johnson in 1970 uh in 19 this church committee he testified he testified that johnson after he read the ig report that we talked about earlier which said that uh which said that uh there were no assassination that president kennedy or robert had never approved authorized any presidential any assassination attempt on castro right he read that report and he told watson according to watson he said

49:03i now believe it's the ci was probably involved in the assassination that's what he said wow in 67 when he read the report wow it comes out in the church committee which is classified disappears for some reason we find it we find it again in because of this ar rb so he was probably left in the dark as well i do believe so i think i think he's definitely involved in the cover-up because he doesn't want that he doesn't want to have a warrior right but he changes the whole policy of kennedy right away he he we have that declassified call between him and robert rachner what does johnson say in that call do you remember it's in the film he says you know i was never in agreement with you and the president about withdrawing from vietnam i thought you were wrong he says that proudly yeah because he's going in right why he wants to go into vietnam and not cuba you know is another issue but uh

49:58you think about that just think about the implications of that johnson is moving towards war in vietnam why was it so important for them to get into vietnam it's a good question you know it was a oh boy this in a way we got linked in with the french because we supported the french war financially we offered them apparently we offered them nuclear weapons when they were losing at the ambient foo and there was a whole connection going back through our interest in vietnam was the domino theory that if they if vietnam fell thailand would be next singapore indonesia japan all these fears the hyperinflation over inflation or threat threat inflation they call it that was always the american way threat inflation everywhere you look all over the world ukraine threat inflation they build things up to this paranoid point like a bully who say there's another bully that's

50:51going to take over is worse than me you know you have to think about it as what we how we think and it was it didn't work the domino theory didn't work vietnam fell did thailand did nothing moved right in that area the important thing to remember i i think we so much too much to tell you i'm sorry it's awesome don't worry about it kennedy had a terrific relationship for the first time with sukarno of indonesia so cardo was an independence hero like ho chi minh in indonesia which has gigantic resources much bigger than vietnam that was the that's the treasure chest in southeast asia it was indonesia and actually rostow i think it said i don't understand why we went into vietnam when indonesia was the big number and we won indonesia in 65 when the cia pulled their coup off and they killed about a million communists uh if you remember that we put uh suharto in who was our guy

51:47we got rid of sucarno he was moved assad and he ran indonesia for the next 30 40 years until he made a fortune all his cronies and it was like mobutu in the congo these are all our guys we were very happy with indonesia that was our biggest cougars we couldn't talk about it because it was covert right we gave lists to the indonesian military lists of people of who were common we said we're communists or no one sympathizes just like in vietnam when we went after operation phoenix when we killed all those people how much weight do you put into the speculation that something about vietnam had to do with moving heroin yeah do you think that was a side effect it's a side effect do you think that it was also some sort of uh a money project that was no no i don't think so i think that's that's really conspiratorial you think so i do but there may be there that i

52:40don't know about but we know that the cia has done this right we know that they move drugs through south central los angeles to fund the conscious versus the the sandinistas right i believe that i believe that i believe the gary webb accusations although i'm not expert on it yeah well rick ross you know the guy who actually did it and sold the drugs i've had him on a couple of times oh and we know from air america we know yes all these things happen from laos shipping stuff yeah i imagine but i don't know enough about it but that we know about the nguyen hand bank and now that was a whole story the bank that was used yeah the cia is up to its neck in dirt yeah always has been it's crazy and why we tolerated them i mean you know i went up to speak at the national congress where the election uh delegate uh uh during jerry brown was running for office he asked me to talk

53:37and i i called that madison square guard and i called for the abolition of the c.i.a oh jesus and it was in the papers and they said i was nuts we have to start over we have to we we made a huge mistake in allowing that agency to exist because we gave them covert operational abilities in other words we cut them off from being uh allow them to be secretive allowed them to be secreted yeah and how would one do that and still i mean obviously the cia has some positive function how would one disband the cia but still maintain this positive function this and the intelligence gathering perspective how do you know i mean we'd like to know what is positive about killing a million people in indonesia what is positive about their success their so-called successes in guatemala or iran i'm trying to be they put us a they put us in in iran if we had sorted out the iran situation back in 1954

54:37with the mosaddegh we wouldn't be in this mess we would have allies there's no reason we can't be at peace with the whole world joe yeah there's no reason i maybe i sound like a crazy optimist to you but i've lived long enough to tell you that we there's no need to make enemies you can have friends if you if you work at it that means modify your behavior talk understand your enemies your so-called enemies points of view it's the only way the cia i would form another agency call it intelligence agency or whatever you want but no covert ability and you got to take away the money the money is what drives they have secret money everywhere in the world but ultimately they always needed they needed military hardware to achieve this and that's what they got from the pentagon that's where my friend fletcher prouty who gave me a lot of information on jfk came in he was a focus point officer

55:30providing hardware to the cia for all these coups they tried to do it in tibet they tried to do it in you know in ukraine back then in the 40s they tried to do it there are several countries they tried and failed i don't know if the cia's ever had a real success that was positive for the world but do you think that there's any function or any need to gather intelligence about foreign operatives and dangerous countries and regimes and yeah terrorist cells and don't you think that there is something that they do yes there are people who are dangerous there are but they're in the in the whole mill of mankind how how many are there you know how often don't you think the terrorists who exist don't don't you think they have a gripe with us i mean don't you think there's reasons after what happened in the middle east over all these years we tried to control the situation isn't it a matter of

56:23control america trying to tell other countries what to do isn't that the if we let things go just if we let things take a natural course let's see where it goes we wouldn't be threatened still we have plenty of defense i think it's under the always under the auspices of protecting us but of course keeping the threat from ever reaching our shores yeah that's why i went to vietnam because it would come here right vietnam is going to come to america that's the cell it's never true never true think it through and communism itself was it was it really ever a threat once it competes economically as kennedy said it's going to have its problems it doesn't work it doesn't work right socialism to some degree won't work either i remain a capitalist maybe i'm the bad guy but i really think my father was in the stock market and i believe in an economic competition but a healthy one

57:15not a controlled or manipulated one yeah or a corrupt one when kennedy was aware very quickly of the entanglements with the intelligence agencies and how much was going on when he was in office when did he start speaking about getting rid of the cia and how long was it in that he fired those uh top three guys his problem was he didn't clean house you know right he didn't clean the house because everybody at the cia was basically a dulles fan that most of those people were dullest people that he left them behind that's why we think dulles was involved in the assassination because he had tremendous power still influence this is the same dolls that they would name the airport after yes i believe it's alan dulles if it's his brother it's just as bad john foster douglas was secretary of state and did a lot of harm uh the the uh cia was a beehive of activity

58:16uh in this cuba situation i mean there was all these all these people had to be managed there's five undercover officers we'd like to have the files on them people like david david atlee phillips uh william harvey for christ's sake what a character he was he ran an operation with roselli this is that parallel operation this is what you have to understand we have mongoose which is operational not that long a time nine months or something it doesn't work it's all pr like the cia says the landsdale leaves and they let it go mongoose dies meanwhile there's secret plots from the cia even henry loose for christ's sake he was a publisher time life one of the most influential he was always pressing kennedy to go to war on cuba even he said he was mounting an operation privately privately capitalizing it to attack cuba in other words private citizens were getting

59:13involved but essentially the cia never let up they were planning to assassinate him uh on the day of kennedy's death there was a plot uh zr rifle one of those plots there's a lot of plots against castro i remember i met him i went down to see him a very interesting man i mean he told me about some of these plots and how how crazy the americans could get to speak spanish no so you had to go through a translator yes but uh he was eloquent in both languages he understood what i was saying in english i didn't have time to learn spanish i should have uh it's it's just such a whirlwind of a term this the the years that kennedy is alive while he's a president before he's assassinated the amount of events that were happening concurrently it's just it's it's pretty stunning and so he makes this decision how deep in that he he was looking to do something to weaken the grip of the cia

60:11not just get rid of those three guys but he also wanted to diminish the cia's influence yeah but that wasn't his only thought he had a hundred things to deal with right that's the problem right and wasn't newly in office well yeah by 60 he said statements about the generals he said you know they're not worth a bucket of piss or whatever it was you know they're not generals think they know everything they always want to go to war they want to they want the parades but they don't want the they don't want the casualties they don't want the result and that's true for the united states we go to war with a lot of a lot of hoopla and we come out we leave our people we leave our people who go over there in mostly in very difficult states you know either suicide or in veterans hospitals with limbs blown off it's not fun war and we treat it like i think the united

61:01states has never experienced a war that's i think that's a problem on our shores yeah yeah and when we do we're shocked so we have a distorted perception of what war is i think the russians are much more realistic because every russian is related to somebody who was killed in world war ii right they well it's in their hearts it's seared in and uh you know i don't can't speak for the chinese but they lost like a couple of million men in korea you know so they they must have been some a lot of family pain there have you ever tried to calculate how many people were involved in the cover-up of the assassination because well you know when you break down all the the various people that you document um everyone from arlen specter to the everyone that's on the warren commission's report this it's very clear that those folks had to know that what they were doing was from what

61:51you said about the fbi uh chain of custody for the magic bullet to the the alteration of the autopsy photos and the difference between the autopsy itself yes the autopsy itself the difference between the dallas autopsy and the way they looked at it at bethesda maryland there was no autopsy in dallas it was just it was very quick the tracheotomy yeah the tracheotomy and also the description of the exit wound in his head well that yeah that comes out later yeah although some people didn't see it but 40 people what the arb did thank god was to collect all the people who saw the rear exit wound and it was huge we showed to phil in the film he showed the 40 people who saw it what's really crazy document in the film was the fact that it wasn't really his brain that that was going to go to that point yeah please the brain that they had used as a piece of evidence that this was

62:47kennedy's brain had clearly been in formaldehyde for at least two weeks yeah well i'm so glad our documentary and this is james d eugenio who wrote it you know he's really the guy who reads everything remembers everything through all these years and there's a million documents we drove a stake through the magic bullet that's cleared there's no chain of custody the fbi lied they also in the in the matter of the autopsy that the brain is intact there's a and it was uh photographed as such it was a clean the whole area was still there whereas it's impossible because the brain was seen you see phil you see it spraying spraying out in the car when there's a pruder film you see it the nurses audrey bell is talking about it's the it's the the i can't remember the medical term the whatever it's called it's spilling out on the floor of parkland yeah and when they weigh the brain as

63:44they do in an autopsy it comes out normal well not just normal but extra large right a little bit larger than average like it was it's impossible and what's more important is and this drives a stake again to the heart of the photographer of the autopsy john stringer the autopsy photographer he's he's a straight guy he's you know pro warren commission all that stuff they they bring him back the arb brings them back and they they show him the photos of that we now have of the uh that are in the national archives and he says that's i never photographed that right it was about he took an up view of the brain he never took a basilar you know from the below and i never photographed that and that's very important there's also some evidence that they had drawn hair in to cover up the exit wound yes i know about the evidence but definitely the photograph shows that the hair had been pulled in

64:38the shot is bizarre it's bizarre shots but so the autopsy is off the brain is off photos are off then you go you know the garrison trial revealed the one of the autopsies peter fink saying that there was that he they were not in charge of the autopsy the military was right he couldn't they wouldn't let him put his finger in the back hole right they they told them what to do and they were very bullying in fact there was can you imagine having doing an autopsy on the president and having 20 or 30 people looking at you from a gallery and they were telling him what he was able to do and not able to do so the autopsy was being directed yeah i showed that in the movie don't touch that right don't do that which is you so you have to think that plus they have fifth they have the best autopsy people in the world civilian all around washington why didn't you why don't why wouldn't they

65:26call them in no right there's no desire so they had a predetermined ending that they wanted to achieve or a result that they wanted to achieve three bullets three blocks one assassin but this is what's crazy is like you've got to think okay when then you have at least those 30 people that are in the the audience watching that autopsy how i mean what do they know i don't know that but isn't that crazy if all 30 of them know that lee harvey oswald didn't act alone no we don't know that we don't know right i mean we don't know some of them but they there's there's obviously a directive well now there again no we don't know i shouldn't say obviously directed but they're they're doing something to influence the way this autopsy is being done at least some of the people are giving direction giving instruction and you've got to wonder why would they do that like what motivation would they

66:17have unless they knew that there was a predetermined result that they need to achieve you have of course the johnson fear that it would get it become a hysteria russia or cuba being accused of killing him and it would be a situation that they could no longer control that's a legitimate excuse to cover up uh you know one interesting story it's in the four-hour version not in this two-hour version that's coming out in the end of february and we show a moment in the uh autopsy where one of the technicians what the doctor looks up he says there's cigar smoke blurring this thing it was just cigar smoke smells covers up the the air and stuff it looks you don't do you don't smoke a cigar and you know sometimes you're crazy who's doing that find out tell them to put it out he goes over to the gallery and guess who's smoking the cigar who general curtis lemay the the figure from strange love that

67:12kubrick was satire that's hilarious and he says can you put it out you know lemay simply looks at him blows smoke in his face and the guy wrote he was a you know technician he just wanted he told the truth walks back couldn't get him to put the cigar on wow that's pretty interesting uh lemay also was not that day all his movements by on the on a plane were not did not correspond to what he was supposed to be he was in canada canada or something and it's a crazy little story but so lemay was no friend of kennedy because they'd had several battles if you're in a position like lemay i mean just imagine that this is this is his big moment of success if he hated kennedy and he's got his big moment of success i mean he probably felt completely untouchable i mean they had just assassinated the president he's there smoking a cigar celebrating looking down at your naked look at him

68:06looking down at your naked enemy in front of you a naked enemy with a giant hole in his head and you're smoking a cigar like what a creep holy just the fact that people like that exist and that is that's the top of the food chain right i mean if you're in that position and you are uh a general and you are at the autopsy smoking a cigar yeah i mean you want to talk about unchecked power that's not evidence but it's interesting it's interesting it's interesting it's definitely not evidence and then of course we in the film we go into this is very important the oswald alibi it's probable that he was not on the sixth floor right we know this because of the three secretaries yeah women who were at the fourth floor window and they were looking at the parade where they saw him shocked they freaked out two of the women immediately ran down the stairs to see what was going on in the street

69:00they went down the street one of them stayed up on the third floor that was the supervisor dorothy garner this we only know because of the stroud document which came out in the arr b again years later this was in 1997 mary jo stroud was a d.a in dallas she interviewed the and the dorothy garner who told her the story and she she she verified it to the warren commission they ignored it because they changed the story on the three women the two women actually because one the first woman they said had taken longer to get down the stairs which would have given oswald time to get off the sixth floor down i don't know how he would have done that because he had to stash the rifle he had to do all this and there was all these boxes in the way and he had to go down these stairs at full speed and be on the second floor to be seen by the cop and there was no evidence about the on the rifle as

69:53as far as none at all the rifle doesn't doesn't have any chain of custody at all nor the bullets for that matter and was there evidence and fingerprints was there something that they were trying to attribute to oswald that was but that didn't work because it was a partial and the guy who really knew fingerprints said it didn't it wasn't true really yeah no nothing nothing not one piece of evidence that day so there was an uh there was an entry wound in his back yes so is there any speculation as to where that was fired from yeah i would say the rear but right obviously but like where well it could have been dowel tax i don't know if but is there any i question eyewitness testimony of hearing gunshots from the rear yeah there was not well they heard shots right they heard it was hard because it's echoing too there's a lot of world war ii vets in that crowd you know like kenny

70:44mcdonald was in the car right behind kennedy he'd experienced infantry warfare he said there was a volley it's all you know a volume how many shots did he describe i don't remember if he's saying but i think you have to say four or five maybe six but right we don't know so they're coming from a there's a crossfire we'll never quite know because uh we have the guy on the on the curb uh james what he gets bit in the cheek by a fragment there's a harper fragment which is found in the streak the next day the harper fragment's the right size oh it's a different fragment harper fragment they could because he the guy found it was a kid harper fits right into the area that they think was blown out the on their ear skull and they had that and it disappears the harper fragment the have you ever i'm sure you've read uh best evidence by james lifton you know you mean about lifting the uh the body

71:41being david lifton david david sorry yeah yeah the d eugenio doesn't believe it but i'm not i'm not going to get into that because it's a whole other theory that he was that worked on his body yeah before uh it was autopsied i don't think so i'm not sure because they would have fixed the brain at that point i i don't know enough about lifting siri but i trust uh d eugenia well lifton's theory does not just that lifting was an accountant and he was hired to go over the warren commission report and in his meticulous reading of the warren commission report he found massive inconsistencies and he started to think that there was some sort of a cover-up and that uh kennedy probably was uh assassinated by someone other than just lee harvey oswald and just it's a it's a stunning book but my point being um another thing that's very disturbing is how many eyewitnesses wound up dying of

72:33mysterious causes yeah quite a few quite a few they cleaned up the all of the the possible loose ends yeah not all not all but all loaded strange stuff happened yeah absolutely it was scary for for the witnesses yes garrison ran into that problem you know his witnesses kept vanishing on him yeah including david ferry who died during the process as well and for that matter guy bannister who was the kingpin of the right-wing group that was managing oswald in the in new orleans so they if lee harvey oswald was not on the sixth floor of the book depository that's what we're saying yeah yeah somebody had to have taken a shot from somewhere at least one shot that hit the back could have been the dow text i'm doubtful now and as you know in my film in 91 i showed i dramatized it perhaps too much i think having a team of shooters up there because i don't know how they got out but i just don't

73:27understand it with these the testimony of these three women being revealed in the 90s i'm talking about uh vicki stiles sandra sandra whatever and dorothy garner these are secretaries they pay attention to details they know when they left that window they got downstairs in less than a minute the warren commission changed it to more than a minute and they didn't even interview the other woman who ran down the stairs they just didn't want to they didn't want to hear stuff because it was inconsistent so they discredited single witnesses they were able to discredit but they're not able to discredit three witnesses including a supervisor dorothy garner who saw these women run down the stairs right away wasn't woody harrelson's dad supposedly i keep getting asked that question well let me explain what the rumor was that woody harrelson's dad was a part of the assassination crew that was on the

74:18grassy knoll i don't i don't it doesn't i don't know you don't know yeah there was somebody on the grassy knoll first that's water do you want coffee or water want water okay i gotta pee again again don't worry about it i'm an older man i understand wait till you get to my age okay i'll wait are we missing anything that oh many things many things i'm just trying to make judicious okay the very important these three women the stroud document very important they ignored it right this is a the district attorney in dallas i mean these are the secretaries that takes her statement right that because of their testimony it's pretty clear that oswald was not on the sixth floor of the depository absolutely because there's only one exit the stairs what about the officers in 63 by the way right what about the officer that 64 excuse me that lee harvey oswald was accused of shooting

75:12oh tip it right yes that's a strange story too because physically it doesn't work the geography the distance traveled the shots no one saw it you mean the bullets it's why do you think they attributed that to oh that's that's that's the red herring you know you go down that path you end up speculating right tip it no i i don't go there because i i feel like he went right i think he went as roger craig said the policeman he got into rambler whatever it was a rambler he got picked up by two cuban looking guys and driven away so he was at the scene but where was he second floor he was on the second floor he was spotted there by marion baker within 90 seconds of the assassination and truly roy truly the supervisor so we know he was on the second floor which makes sense because he was having lunch right but if he was spotted there within 90 seconds 90 seconds is an easy way to get down four

76:02flights of stairs that's five flights six to five five to four four to three three to two okay that's fine anyway if you're right four star anyway the the women did not see him okay you gotta stash the rifle right the bullets he leaves in this bizarre pattern right there he puts the right way fingerprints apparently are all over it but he doesn't care he runs down the stairs and there's boxes in the way he has to move past them and of course get down there and be out of and not out of breath quite normal uh without very calm when uh truly second floor and this and this is all just eye witness testimony i think that has a little screw you think that happened before the women got there no no i don't think so how long does it take the women to run from the window on the fourth floor to the to the stairs it's it's a quick run so they saw him in the second floor when he realizes that

77:03the president's been shot and he realizes that shots ring out that's when he flees the scene well he i don't know if he heard the shots but certainly well i had to hear the shots right if he's on the second floor yeah but he's unsigned so we don't know okay well as you know from my film he walks out calm as a cucumber says goodbye yeah and then of course he disappears into this i believe this rambler do you think that he takes him to his boarding house where he gets a pistol right because he knows something's up and he knows i think i believe he had a rendezvous at the theater with he needed help he knew he was he had handlers people who he might have been able to wanted to see so he made that phone call to was it south carolina couldn't get the guy he was trying to get on so he had some kind of connection to it do you think he was involved in the assassination like he knew it was

77:53going down you don't i don't think so because his wife who i interviewed just tell me he had good feelings about kennedy if anything he would have feed her heard this was a foot he wanted to help and there is that mention in the chicago story that an informant called lee called the uh the fbi to tell them that uh there was this this thing was a foot in chicago we don't know if it's the same lee it seems to me he cared about the president and obviously if he had gone on trial and he had told his side of the story it would have thrown a gigantic monkey wrench into the gears oh forget it yeah so they have him killed with the way they have him killed and so strange they have this you know mob connected guy jack ruby run up to him while he's being you know detained by the police and they're holding on to his arms just steps to him and shoots him yeah kind of crazy yeah well

78:51it was the last chance you see uh because he was going to another security place it wouldn't have been possible to get him but just crazy that they get jack ruby to do it like why jack ruby he was expendable they used the mob when they needed to for low-level stuff so it's a low-level hit in the sense you know the the the 38 it wasn't a 38 he used boy he blew out his insides it was very painful for oswald those last uh few minutes before he died he was it was a gut shot you know yeah uh the uh no i think the ruby was interesting case of course he goes on to change his story he says i know everything i know a lot yeah and then he gets cancer now cancer is an interesting thing too because how do you develop cancer so quickly and die there is ways to do that that was they were experimenting on killing castro that way oxnard alton ochsner was the leader of the

79:45experiment in new orleans actually and oswald crossed paths with oxnard so they were working on toxins that could kill people as quickly as possible they tried it with with lumumba they were going to try it with castro are you aware of the connection between jack ruby and jolly west and jolly west with the cia and operation mk ultra and the all the lsd experiments that they were involved with i don't know the details well there's a story there's a great book called chaos by a guy named tom o'neill who spent 20 years detailing the manson murders and and going yeah he he got obsessed with it and found out that there's a deep connection between the cia and these lsd experiments they were they were doing and they had done them to manson while he was in prison and that they had they had supplied him with acid and also given him techniques as far as mind control techniques sophisticated

80:40programming techniques and how to program the family and they know that jolly west visited jack ruby in jail and after he visited jack ruby in jail immediately afterwards jack ruby's in the fetal position having horrible visions of jews burning alive and all kinds of horrific assassination visions and and ranting and screaming like a madman and it's it's detailed in chaos and they're making this sort of connection between what we know jolly west was involved with which was unquestionably they were doing operation midnight climax where they were giving um unsuspecting johns in brothels they were giving them lsd yeah and they were involved with the manson family and that the the this guy went to visit jack ruby in jail and then immediately afterwards jack ruby's like a raving maniac i don't know that i have to check that out you should check it out it's pretty

81:35interesting i do know that ruby did testify to the the warren commission people came there and he talked to them and it's a scene in my film he said i can tell you a lot if you bring me to washington where i can i am assured of safe conduct right scared and shitless yes and they wouldn't do that i can't believe it why not i wonder why no because who knows these things are so bureaucratic the way they're done the way they handle lee harvey oswald during those all those hours that testimony is priceless what did he say we have no clue really no clue and except for what he said in the corridor and there's no there's no transcript of the no transcript they didn't keep the transcript which is crazy they didn't even how do you do that they didn't tape it how do you do that when you have a guy who supposedly just shot the president and you don't really it was so

82:24the whole thing is so amateur how can these people defend the warren commission it was such a joke yeah not the basic first step of any homicide investigation was followed now the cops on the scene they did try they did label things they did they there was they tried to establish chain of custody right away but it broke down as it was going through the stages because you know fbi gives this to the secret service secret service and that's that's what we found out when we followed this chain of custody nut doesn't follow nothing nothing makes sense and what makes even less sense is people that want to pretend that it makes sense that's right that bothers me no end because they and they dismiss our arguments yes they they ridicule me as a messenger of who's loony yeah a loony leftist right and they keep saying it and they don't even look at the new evidence that we've presented

83:15we've worked very hard to gather all this evidence in this new documentary and i haven't seen one critique of actually what we said in the film no it's on when you watch revisited it's undeniable i mean the is well laid out there's no question whatsoever that there has to be deception involved in this deception from the coordinated effort to describe this magic bullet theory i've i've seen people try to try to justify the magic bullet theory which anybody who's ever shot anything with a with a rifle don't even go there yeah silly it's silly you get involved in nuclear physics is ridiculous and it's it's just common sense yeah and people knew it i think at the time they knew something was most of the people ran towards the the grassy knoll and they didn't run to the sixth floor most of them heard their shots from and don't they didn't they they was the magic bull was not the only

84:08bull that they retrieved from the scene well that's a no now here we go and do a whole don't go there either because there's strange bullets show up there's another bullet that shows up we showed we discussed that in the film yeah it's another bullet right and there was one found on that stretcher that's the magic bullet right and then there's another bullet that disa that disappears there is another bullet look at the documentary again and there is a chain of custody on it through i think three people and then it disappears at the secret service i believe somewhere it disappears we don't know what's in him we know about the guy at the sidewalk tag who gets a fragment yes do they did they recover that bullet oh no no they got the but the fragment was it it hits the curb that's what they said and then something either it's a piece of the curb or a piece of the bullet hits

84:55him in the face he gets hospitalized and that's the reason why they have to account for another bullet because this bullet clearly missed yeah but the other bullets disappear i mean where's the connolly bullet that's the magic bullet they say right that's what they say but connolly was probably was hit separately from kennedy in the back not only that isn't there fragments of bullets inside connolly's body that are not missing from the bullet we call for the dna test on him but he wouldn't they wouldn't allow it nellie when he died nellie connelly would not allow us to to request a dna trace on his wrists what would that have done he might have shown a trace of which bull the bullet right so and then expertly the metal fragments but isn't aren't there images of metal fragments that are available from the autopsy photos isn't there an x i'm not autopsy excuse me the x-ray

85:43photos wasn't there no you tell me that's those are details i cannot answer okay but as to the bullets it's a very good question where's the tracheotomy bullet where'd that go right where'd that go if that was it should have gone out the back right right and there is no exit wound out the back of his neck so whatever that entry wound was it was probably stopped by the spine yeah and then maybe maybe something i mean it makes sense the the the fact that that bullet was so pristine and that that was sold by people who are soldiers you know which bullet the the magic ball oh yeah i thought you meant the tracking i don't know no no no no okay the magic pole was so pristine yeah like the idea that this had gone through two people and shattered all these bones and then it came out looking like that well it's we know that it's not it doesn't fit the chain of custody no it was they lied

86:35about it well that's clear it's clear that it doesn't fit the chain of custody it's also clear that it doesn't match the characteristics of bullets that have shattered but then it's also clear that if those two things are true that there's some manipulation there's something going on the chain of custody's completely off the magic bullet showing up on the gurney is ridiculous yes there's so many things about it that are preposterous yes but yet there's people that are going oh no no lee harvey oswald acted alone i mean that to me is one of the more fascinating aspects of the kennedy assassination is the willingness that so many folks have to believe the official narrative despite the fact that it stinks it stinks at every single step of the way the media stinks since that moment you i mean can you really believe our american media would yeah just walk away from this it's not

87:22their laziness or they're just ashamed that they didn't do their job on that day they just went along because they were scared now maybe johnson fed him the same story that listen he called the new york times he says we got cuba we're going to have a war here if we don't get shut this down we got to oswald did it did it alone maybe that was enough justification for them oh president says we're going to war right maybe jesus christ but you know in the years since then why haven't they been why haven't they been responsive they've ridiculed everything we've done everything the assassination community has proven isn't that just a human nature characteristic though you're always going to have contrarians and you're always going to have people that want the official narrative to be true they'll defend it yes and do mental gymnastics in order to make a lot of

88:06germans who believes in hitler it's true you know it's easy to go when you have to believe the majority it's easy to believe the majority yeah i want to bring just mention two books really crucial to understanding the foreign policy of kennedy first of all there's been a whole slew of them from historians like richard mahoney ordeal in africa david talbot wrote a beautiful book two beautiful books one is called brothers it's not the one that there's another brothers but brothers it's about robert and jack and it's a very detailed story of what happened in these last two three years and then there's uh douglas's book james douglas's book jfk and the unspeakable those three are just crucially necessary to understand kennedy's policies do you anticipate more documents coming out where more of this is going to be clear where we're going to get a better

89:01understanding of a good question i might this is all personal i don't know if if they see the experience if they understand the expertise that the assassination community has brought to these documents if i had done something illegal i would feel like i have to be really careful these people are not stupid right they're not we're not back in 1963 now right these people are really checking us out and we have a lot of information it's in the documentary and you see it so what are you going to do you have to really go back over any files if you're seriously thinking of brushing them and thinking about what can come out right i'm curious but i doubt that there'll be something that we can use however i've been wrong i mean before you don't know what these people are very smart and they go through stuff you can't believe the detail it's just stunning that there's this concerted

89:54effort to try to they won't even cover this they won't even yeah listen we couldn't get financed in this country we had to get financed from england it was an independent company really we couldn't get distribution we went to khan we had tremendous reception at khan at rome festival and at doville we sold european countries but nothing from the us it was only at the last second here when showtime came in thank god for them but no company would touch it well kudos to showtime because it really is extraordinary but what and the reviews we don't see reviews of course except for a few nasty uh attacks in rolling stone and this and that rolling stone attacked it yes oh how cute well that's that's how you know you're doing well they're no longer uh serious no it's no longer rolling stone it's a cia guy who see a guy who covers the cia who reviewed it and he didn't

90:46review any of the things we were talking about he reviewed me really yeah what was the rolling stones what was the gist of their article that i had fallen for russian disinformation that's a great narrative these days what a good one though they tied me to the russian because i defended russia and i never believed in the russiagate stuff and never believed it well it turns out you were right yeah look at that i know but boy we swallowed that for three or four years exactly we wasted so much time but they tied me to uh this cunon now they said that i'm in what i'm the guy who the conspiracy guy who put out who inspired these people from kunan who loved what the happened to rolling stone rolling stone when hunter thompson was writing for them rolling stone was the it was amazing it was a fantastic magazine new owners but it's stunning how bad it's gotten

91:40you know rolling stone also had that article about uh the uh in oklahoma how there's people that were waiting in line with gunshot wounds and they couldn't get into the emergency room because so many people had overdosed on ivermectin they would overdose on horse dewormer it's 100 fiction story it doesn't doesn't even make sense and the photo they used was a stock photo from the winter with a bunch of people that were waiting in line to get vaccinated it's a complete fabricated story this is rolling stone which to me is so disappointing yeah uh yeah it's just and also uh washington post has been attacking the with editorials but they don't again deal with anything which is right we bring up in the documentary right it's not substantial it's not you can't refute the but the way you detail it is so brilliant this guy enrolling the guy in washington post says stone ignores the kennedy's

92:37inclinations towards war and he says he his speech at the uh fort worth that the day he died well we looked at the speech the speech is very interesting first of all he got he's got to get elected in 64. that's the reason he went to texas right johnson didn't really want him to go because he was worried actually that's the truth but kennedy wanted to go and he needed the south because the south had turned against him george wallace in alabama and uh mississippi he had sent troops to mississippi he was hardcore about getting these students into those colleges and he won both cases mississippi and alabama and as a result he lost the south he knew it so he needed no votes in texas so he had to change his narrative he had to change the way he didn't know he actually gave a lot of peaceful statements but there was four contractors major arms contractors there in fort worth general

93:30dynamics among them and he had to appeal to them but he didn't call for war but he was trying to get their support yes so i mean they'll use anything any scrap of little evidence to to to to point out including this russian disinformation thing you see they attack the messenger they don't attack them well the problem with attacking the message is there's no holes like when you when you lay out the chain of command with the chain of custody rather with the bullet when you lay out the whole magic bullet theory when you show all the various pieces that are in motion like the way it was the way the whole thing was laid out it's it's it's the most obvious conspiracy ever yeah it really is there's so much information it's these are smart people but they're really turning the blind eye purposefully i mean it's clear that there's a direction that they're being

94:21either being told to go in or they think is beneficial that raises a very important question you know what degree of penetration the government has had in the media right and it was raised in the 70s uh as you know heavily because we found that there was a lot of cia assets in the media yeah they existed and it goes back to the 50s again the united states changed after world war ii you have to kennedy was almost like a throwback trying to say let's go back to the vision of franklin delano roosevelt this man wanted world peace i want world peace and we can have it and the problem was that the security state had established itself and here is a state that was saying we need to be emergency preparation at all times we have to spend like a war economy keep the so there'll be no more depression that was the idea yeah and they had a lot of defenders there they

95:11had the famous uh paul nitsy who was telling me the story because i interviewed him for nixon he interviewed me telling me the story of how they got this thing going this whole lobby going to keep the to keep the money rolling big time money wall street people were going to forestall james forrest all these people were there at the beginning keep the money rolling right that was the key so this is an inner rectum that existed from 1945 or you can say 47 to 1963. it's an inner regnum and kennedy was about to end that inner rectum why not why can't we go back to being the united states of america right back to where we were in the 30s he remembered is there a path to get back to that now well that's a good question because nothing is think about all the presidents right who has done anything right to really challenge these right what could be done at this point i mean could when we were

96:03talking about kennedy get into office and so many issues that he has to deal with and just playing catch up and he's essentially new on the job yeah that's what someone would have to deal with while stepping into office while trying to sort of remap this influence that the military-industrial complex has over the society and you also have to deal with the media would they allow it you know this media of ours is a joke now they're they're in cahoots i was watching tv last night in my hotel room here in where am i in austin texas you know you have fox news and you have cnn they're both nuts right you know they give you the news before it even happens right uh biden is going to do is is soft on russia or soft on iran blah blah blah and they make it the news we don't know what they're really saying you can't say anything right you can have it you can't even have a phone

96:52call with the president of any country without it being reported misreported often right this is a crazy time where the media is making up sensationalism to keep it going to keep the cycle going right because that's their business now their business model seriously no it just seems like they don't think that that's imperative that the click-bait aspect of keeping their business alive is more that's the front line that's that's what they that's what they're really doing i admire politicians you may not believe it but good ones are crucial to our survival right and when they talk they have to have secrecy they have to have diplomacy yeah you have to have a sense i can trust you but i don't want you to walk out of this meeting and all of a sudden the media breaks with another story right that's always the fear right same thing was true in the film business i found to the same degree

97:38the media had some aspect controlled what we had to do right you know we didn't want breaks you know leaks to happen but it happens now all the time so would maybe the rise of some independent journalists and we're seeing that now with sub stack and a lot of these online journalists these youtube journalists and people that are doing really good work and really honest objective work but they're doing it outside of these in enormous corporations i was in i was interviewed by matt taimbi on this one with his partner i was invited matt ivey's fantastic breaking promises or breaking breaking points crystal and sauger both are amazing they're amazing uh gray zone she's great anya and uh the sun bloomberg uh i forgot his first time i'm not aware of that oh max bloomberg sure sure i mean you have to find those those people are honest and i think youtube many i think the young people the

98:35internet has given us that ability of freedom we have to keep it now it's also made it very attractive to be honest and to be as objective as possible because it's such it's so unusual in the world of mainstream media it literally is non-existent it doesn't exist everything is biased everything has a there's a narrative they're pushing from every single network that's corporate controlled absolutely and because of that it's incredibly unattractive to people that are paying attention so they look at the the the trust in mainstream media is at an all-time low but the good thing about that is it gives rise to these people like glenn greenwald like matt taibbi like these people that can just say what the actual facts of the story are yeah i like glenn i saw him in rio i was in rio de janeiro with lula and he has really broke that story in brazil he saved lula's you know that was he saved his

99:33noodle that was a great great revelation he exposed what his enemies were doing and lula got sprung from jail yeah it's extraordinary he's going to run for president that was a tremendous public service but he's also very open to the kennedy killing and i saw him uh recently he goes on tucker carlson who's apparently the declared enemy of the establishment that's a giant problem that they have and not allowing people to go on someone's show because you think that someone represents something evil here's what you have to look at this is what i'd say to my fellow left-wing people tucker carlson's one of the rare people that lets these guys on and lets them talk about whatever the issue is whether it's guys like brett weinstein or whoever it is that he's having on these people they demonize the folks that are guests on his show because they're willing to talk to him and

100:25they'll say all these things about tucker carlson that he's a a white supremacist and a racist and a separatist and also but you you're just trying to dismiss this opportunity these people have to reach millions and millions of people in a format that's rare in that he lets these people talk where you can't get that format on cnn or msnbc or any of these other places where you can't talk about controversial stories that are outside of what's this pushed narrative yeah and he allows that and they're trying so hard to minimize his impact and minimize the impact of any guest that's willing to participate in this platform they completely dismiss whatever the story is the content of the story what's important about what they're trying to relay about the information they're trying to give out and all they want to say is why are you on tucker carlson's show well that's why you play a huge

101:18role here joe well it's bizarre you have to keep going oh okay you have an obligation now you've entered the mainstream in your own way you have to you just change working yes now that sucks and on that note i have to leave you because i got a plane i have to catch you oliver i appreciate you very very much i've been a gigantic fan it's always an honor to have you on i'm a huge fan of your films i'm a huge fan of your work and i'm a fan i'm a huge fan of this fantastic documentary that you have it's available right now jfk revisited it is on show time and then again as you said in february late february late february where the four-hour version will be released which you sent me as well thank you very much and the two hour will be more available too and the four hour will it be on itunes four hours will be wherever around two hour will be i hope on the may all the major channels okay

102:06you'll be able to have access it'll be and it's available now on showtime and it's also yeah yeah yeah you want something i i don't want to smoke this is this curtis lemay cigar those are those are jre cigars actually do you smoke cigars no no well they used to just pull that sucker down there you go i was going to tell my kids i smoked weed oliver stone oh man i smoked a lot in my time i bet you have fella oh boy i got up on cannabis the other day boy ice edibles you know oh yeah i stopped smoking in order to do edibles but i took too much and it really knocked the out of me i was i was on christmas day or something i was just well a guy who's done it as many times as you who still gets up that gives me hope yeah there's some brands that are pretty tough oh my goodness yes dude edibles don't play around with you well you know the whole story of edibles like when you're eating it it's a

103:05completely different psychoactive drug yeah you get hungry it's um 11-hydroxy metabolite that's what's produced by the liver when you do shows on this stuff right how do i i'm sure you do oh yeah all the time i like cookies but you know they're not the oreos for my youth well i think it hits different people different ways and for me it's very beneficial i find it um it lets me relax my primary bogey listen i'll give you some on the way out i have some freshies for you thank you my pleasure it's an honor really is an honor i i appreciate you very much and i'm very very glad you're out there because i don't think there's a lot of people that would be willing to put the amount of time and effort and focus into a documentary well this is crucial yeah this is history this is history one day 200 years from now somebody will see it they'll wake up this is why we fell apart as a country i agree

104:02this is why i agree watch it folks go watch it it's fantastic that's uh travis walton oh he's a guy that was abducted by ufos apparently allegedly i see he gave me the bottle i'm glad you moved to austin it's fun we've got to move too i love it here oliver thank you very much bye everybody