Andy Stumpf

00:03four three two hello Andy what's up just going CBD water I've never had CBD water gt's kombucha sent us some CBD water my first sip was a few seconds ago and I didn't read that it said cucumber basil so it's shocked by the taste but I like it yeah that's what we're a combo right yeah cucumber in it it's called dreamcatcher which makes me think of like white trash lady living in a trailer park when them things hanging over our bed partially broken on the inside mullet weird cats if you have a dreamcatcher most likely you have cats right I think you have to have one it's part of the program yeah it's a package deal it's like you know what I saw yesterday that is really rare I saw a dude who was dressed up like a Native American who was not in fact a Native American that's a risky move in this day and age yeah I'm not gonna go there and we were kids you could be an Indian like

01:06if you could play cowboys and Indians you could be an Indian and I'd be like oh okay yeah no problem he's the Indian this guy's the cowboy normal today they will come for you that day is gone it's dead days over yeah what happened I'm not smart enough to answer that question but it's just a freaking margin but some things have taken place I mean during the time that you were serving from 2001 to 2009 teen where we're at today I mean there has been a significant change in outraged culture in this country in in entitlement like things that people think that they can get offended by and not offended by things that are important and not important so we're another strangest time the beauty of that is most the time I was serving so it paid zero attention to any of it right the disaster part of that is when you come off the off-ramp you know out of service yeah and you go what happened

02:03yeah what happened to the environment that I left but I mean I went from Santa Cruz California where I grew up where it could well be the origin of outrage culture in social justice warriors to the military to back out of the military so I had very very different optics when it comes to perspective where I started and then what I was seeing when I came out well that's the that's the take that I always see from people that are in the military or have been in the military is their understanding what's important and not important it's so much different because it's truly life-and-death not all the time but I think if you are exposed to that environment enough it'll recalibrate your perspective of what's important what's not yeah did you ever read any Sebastian Junger I did these tribes are a book yes read that off your recommendation actually did it speak to

02:55you like in terms of like your own personal experience it made complete sense I probably would have used different terms in different places throughout but the concept that he was talking about absolutely made sense I mean this so the SEAL Teams one of the whether or not people live up to this an argument could be made but one of the key tenants is you know the Brotherhood which is it just another way of talking about a tribe yeah yeah I I just felt like it was really interesting to me like that book that one of the most moving part of it was how connected these people are when they're together and when they're at war and what that Brotherhood that camaraderie means to them and how they feel disconnected when they're back in regular civilization and they get depressed it's like their life had been led at such a such a high vibration intensity so much so much on

03:47the line it means so much everything means so much there's so much dedication so much commitment and then to go back to the regular life is very very difficult for a lot of people yeah I don't think it would be unfair to say that some of the people that I served with I probably have closer relationships than I do with my biological family even probably I've shared I don't know Nessa not it's not that the things that we shared were important but the value and our connection was so tight that honestly tighter than my definitely biological family and potentially even my wife as well too in my own kids and that's how uh well I think she understands it she gets it you're gonna get in trouble bro that's well I only get in trouble for my wife on days that end in Y so nothing that's gonna be new about that but but I think she also understands that because I certainly have struggled I struggled

04:38quite a bit but about the first eighteen months I got out of the military and I look back on it now and I think two pieces of it one I went from seeing those people that I share those experiences with on a daily basis so there's that everything you have in common we talk about stuff the same I mean I just know the ins and outs of those people then I became detached from them and then I had I used to have what I thought was a job that had an immense amount of purpose and then that was gone too so I lost a little bit of my identity and a little bit of the purpose and at that same time like I said I come off that off-ramp of being in the military and I'm looking at the world it doesn't make any sense to me at all people are arguing about things and talking about how they're oppressed while they're standing in a Starbucks line paying for a coffee that cost more

05:22per ounce than gallon of gasoline you know stuff that probably couldn't be you know you could couch it in terms other than oppression and none of it made sense and you just it's it's rough when you get detached from that environment well especially in your situation you were wounded and you you know although you wanted to continue serving you physically weren't able to anything I was for a while so I got hurt in February of 2005 the 14-year 15 year now 14 year anniversary was earlier this month and it took me about two years to work my way back to where I would become operational again and I did one more deployment after I got hurt and then at the tail end of that deployment that was just the end of it my body wouldn't tolerate it anymore and this is because of the metal fragments or wood it what is it totally you there was a nerve damage it was the so I got medically retired

06:13which is not based off of any one instant hopefully I mean people who have they get an AED strike and they'll become a quad amputee or a triple amputee that's one incident that they're gonna get retired for for me it was more the culmination of a lot of things so the gunshot wound obviously didn't help and then the operational history of exposure to explosive blasts the concussive forces all of those things just kind of added up I went through a 30-day protocol where they baseline me and took a bunch of tests and basically came to the you know they write out a massive document of all the things they were able to at least document like for me I can't get an MRI because I still have metal in my body from ferrous metal from the round that clipped a piece of rebar on its way to me oh wow and it clipped my sciatic nerve on the way in and they're concerned that if

07:06they image me or what I've been told by the doctors if they image me it might react again with my sciatic nerve just pull a piece of metal by it and I'll be right back where I was all I had drop foot for about six months and the drop foot is when your foot just stops were totally hangs I could always push down but I couldn't lift it up that's the thing that's happening now in MMA quite a bit it's happened several times so guys get low calf kicked and there's something about chopping at the the nerves behind the leg that guy's legs are just their foots going limp it happened to Michael Chandler it happened to Henry so who know are they recovering from it yeah yeah I mean it's in the middle of the fight so and then momentary leg just stops working and they can't stand on it their foot just this literally doesn't react anymore so frustrating so for me I got I got shot

07:54in the hip high up on my left hand side but by the time I made it to the hospital my single complaint was my ankle I was to tell me that like I I didn't remember falling on my ankle I didn't remember hitting my ankle but it felt like somebody had taken a sledgehammer and just beat it into powder and so they were very careful and then you know they cut my shoes off of me they cut my pants off me and they the first thing I did was take a x-ray of my ankle no I dude you're totally fine but it felt like it was destroyed because it was the nerve they got interacted with high up it's short-circuiting all the way down to the terminal point of the nerve and for me it never came back I'm hoping that obviously for the fighters it eventually comes back because I had dropped foot for six months to a year I eventually was able to start dorsal flexing my foot again but I still can't

08:40feel my left leg from the knee cap down on the side excited the far left hand side and as it wraps over the top of my foot is completely numb and is this because of the actual damage to the nerve or something touching the nerve they don't know that was an interesting part of being hurt as well is talking to people who have decades of medical experience and having them look at you and go I don't know yeah especially without an MRI right because they can't they can't in there because they're worried about it being pulled out same thing why the concussion history that I have it's an estimate based off of operational history because they can't throw me in that same machine and image my brain oh whoa it's spitting magnets and right I made it and then there's metal all over the left hand side of my pelvis and I don't know how much it would have to move but if it just clipped that nerve

09:26again I mean it was probably one of the more difficult times in my life my leg felt like it was on fire 24 hours a day Oh which I could ignore during the daytime but where it got me was at nighttime I would lay down in bed and it just felt like I had dipped my leg and gas and just and put a lighter onto it so I was on high dosages of like gabapentin and rotten which our central nervous system suppressors so I started feeling the cognitive effect of that so I backed myself off of that wasn't in a great phase of my life so I was of course washing those down with massive amounts of alcohol taking three to four ambien staying awake because my tolerance to all that stuff was so high and the last thing I ever want to do is go through that again so I'm gonna stay away from the spinning magnets it's just I mean it might be a quarter of an inch and I'd be exactly right back where I

10:16was before and there's no way they can go in and pull those fragments out so my I'm laying in the hospital in Baghdad and the night that I got hurt many other people got hurt eight people got hurt on that particular target I was one of the least injured there were people who immediately flown into surgery a guy almost lost his arm a guy took a he was right next to an explosive blast that literally peeled back the layers of his ballistic helmet he was conscious but blind he'd taken such a shot to his head he ejected out the back side of a building there was some other gunshot wounds so I'm laying in the hospital bed I hadn't taken any morphine because I had watched too many movies and I thought if I had auto-injector syrettes on me at all times but I thought job myself I was gonna start drooling no experience with whatsoever and the doctors finally start working on me and

11:11he says all right you know I'm we're gonna take a look at this I'm gonna you know I'm gonna basically stick my finger in the hole with this take a pause here sir can I have some pain medication so he comes out and just juices me with morphine first time I've ever had it was I wish I would have taken it in the field it did almost nothing and they played around a little bit with the holes and then slipped me into an x-ray machine and said do you want us to try to take this out and I said well what does that can entail and he said well because we can tell that there's ferrous metal in here what we would do is we would knock you out put a tube down your throat lay you on your stomach and hold up a two dimensional x-ray and basically just start slicing and pulling apart slicing and pulling apart looking and searching for these metal pieces and pulling them out of your body one at a

11:55time and I said is there another option he's like oh yeah totally the body will encapsulate it in calcium and as long as it's not touching a bone you're probably gonna be fine man why didn't you lead with that option right well did they think they were gonna be able to get them all out though if they did go in there and start slicing away I don't know and I don't know what benefit it would have had I suspect it would have caused more damage hmm than the actual injury itself my hip is fine I still have never had a surgery I've still never broken a bone the only thing they ever did was put a gauze pad on my leg and when the scab fell off I could start taking a bath again if I wanted to Wow yep they just left everything in there Jesus that's crazy it's all covered Bazaar Wow so if you do have an injury now that it's is it a lot of guesswork like if something's wrong with your leg

12:45do they have to like go in there with a scope like since you can't get an MRI like what if you blew your knee out they would have to rely on imagery technology that doesn't revolve around magnets so most likely I'm not - I think they gave me a cat scan in the hospital so that I don't think is magnet based and then two-dimensional x-ray well it's interesting too because some of the therapies they're using on people for TBI is magnets yeah but I don't think they're as powerful as an MRI I mean you can't even wear earrings those rooms we get with an MRI I've heard about some kid who accidentally died because they had an oxygen tank in the room they turned the machine on the tanks slammed into him and crushed him yeah I've heard about the TBI magnets that I think I would be fine with because I don't think it has the power the that the huge machines do right right

13:34it's yeah it's like a low-frequency magnetic pulse that's like cat Zingano who's a UFC fighter she essentially was she was she had been hurt and really bad in a fight with Amanda Nunez and she got hypothyroid condition from that fight her thyroid wasn't functioning correctly she was gaining weight like crazy she was her motor skills were all up and they fixed her with that and that was from the brain injury mm-hmm yeah for a fight she won which is crazy I mean she was hurt really bad in the first round stopped her in the third round she won the fight she beat Amanda Nunez and you know really suffered some significant brain trauma from that fight there is a I don't want to say there's a rash of suicides in the SEAL team specifically obviously the number 22 is throwing out a lot when it comes to veteran suicides but that's what is it 22% 22 veterans a day I said is the

14:31number that is often touted I am hesitant to say that number is accurate because if you look at how it was derived it wasn't they could have done a better job of getting that number and I and I don't want to say inside of the SEAL Teams that there's a suicide issue even though I do know a few people that have committed suicide and they were the ones that I would least expect it from but they were also the ones who had quite a bit of high operational tempo and the one thing that I don't think especially in the military medicine world they understand well as traumatic brain injury and the impact it has long-term yeah and how easy it can be because you know this I've heard you talk about it before you don't have to get knocked out to get a brain injury right and I know I've countless times where I either did something dumb or was just standing in the wrong place or had

15:21a hard parachute opening and I cracked my head against the metal risers and your head hurts for the rest of the day yeah and it's I've seen the change in behavior in some people and I know the stuff that's tied to it as well the low hormones all of that stuff there that is happening I think at the highest levels in the military probably military why but specifically those people who were kind of more on the front leading edge of combat operations and I think as a country were in a word a total unknown area because we're in a sustained period of war long and we've ever been as a nation and nobody knows the outcome of that and people who I would have never guessed would make the decision to take their own life I'll get a text and pay you know so-and-so just went out into the woods and it no other external injury no other marker than obviously something happened in the geometry

16:15between their ears that caused them to make that decision and I suspect it's from the repeated exposure to the brain injury yeah it's something that people are just starting to understand over the last couple of decades I mean obviously there was a focus that concussion movie and you know I don't know if you saw that Bob Costas was actually pulled from football and they had told him that he'd crossed the line the announcer of causes they pulled him they pulled him from doing what what event was it was it from the Superbowl yeah because he was talking about traumatic brain injury and the realities of it and they said you crossed the line he's like I crossed the line by talking about reality when it honest and open procedure that's not cool I mean that's what he does I mean that is Bob Costas is an entire hook but I mean he's he's a brilliant guy but this this problem was so poorly

17:05understood just two decades ago so everyone's just sort of coming to this realization that I mean according to dr. mark Gordon who have I've had on who works with the warrior angel foundation Andrew Mars setup where they're helping all these veterans and have traumatic brain injuries and I've had mr. gordon on several times he says you can get traumatic brain injuries from things that don't even remotely knock you out he's like people get them from doing moguls when they ski they get them from from your brain just well get them from jet skis bouncing around on jet skis I mean you can get it from minor car accident you can have a traumatic brain injury and for guys like me that got hit in the head for years who knows what the is going on in there you know and for professional fighters it's you know it's almost inevitable for football players it's even worse you know for football players

17:57they did some crazy study and I know we quoted it and I don't remember what the numbers was but it's some insane number like in the high eighty percent of people from high school on through college and into the professionals have TBI or CTE or the some signs of traumatic brain injury I'd be surprised that they didn't give them they're crazy it gets it is interesting to like I was saying so when I got medically retired they sent me to a medical facility called nyko which is attached to Walter Reed and it's the best care that I ever received because it's a civilian facility it's called the national intrepid center of excellence we did a lot of work with them back in the day for the UFC the UFC raised a bunch of money for that really yeah well the money was well spent because I went there and I probably would not have been medically retired he died not because I

18:46left with literally a hundred and fifty page dossier but it's interesting tying it back to TBI because I spent a lot of time as a requirement talking to psychologists and psychiatrists and it the TBI pts in the military gets interesting because it seems like they're treated as different issues and I'm probably misquoting the number a little bit I think there's 13 recognized symptoms of both but there's an overlay of like 11 so I can't remember anything symptoms off the top of my head but you could describe one and it could ply both to TBI and post-traumatic stress so it gets even more muddled on how are you treating somebody for a brain injury are you treating somebody for a post-traumatic stress are you lumping everybody together it's just because I see a lot of people and specifically a lot of veterans getting stuck in that world where they've it's a lot of focus on pts

19:41but the reality is it could just be from the trauma received over a career or you know nearly two decades for most people to make it to retirement it's really hard to tell well apparently blasts are a big one right like blowing down door because he would just step away and you brace yourself the impact of just the air the concussive forcing of it this is devastating for your brain the human brain apparently is just so much more delicate and sensitive than anyone could have ever guessed well an concussive blast or telephone because they travel so you're internally in a building and you find a door that's at the end of a hallway even if you go all the way down to the end of the hallway and around the corner the blasts can still get you because it will come down off the door reflect off of the hallway and still rock you Jesus yeah it's it's I thought I had a good hiding spot more than once

20:31oh that heard Oh more than one occasion or you're working with a bunch of who take all the good hiding spots damn it just turn around and just ball up and there's not really much you can do about that right I mean if you have to blow down that door someone has to be there to detonate you have to be close enough for it to activate right how are they doing it wirelessly they might be doing it wirelessly now when I was in was called no Nell and it basically it's or shock tube so you put a charge wherever adult a gate a door a wall and you basically have to attach and initiate or to it because the charge isn't gonna go off by itself so you need a highly reactive charge to set off an explosive that is less reactive you keep him separate obviously for safety except for the main breacher he probably has at least one hooked up so he can be really fast but then you just extend that flash

21:28tube and it's they come in long reels I mean that you can get 30 40 50 feet and each charge mathematically we do math on it to determine the minimum safe distance out of every charge and it's written on the charge so you know how far you can get away but sometimes you're in a situation where like I said that you think you got an awesome hiding spot and the guy lays out the flash tube and he's getting ready to fire it off and you realize that you're staring directly at the charge you have nowhere to hide no Jews and they're not gonna wait on you so it's turn around cover up into a ball and eat it oh this is our a best way to eat it open your mouth and cover your ears immediately yeah open your mouth yeah allow it sits instead of overloading like your sinus cavities and your ear canal so you can cover your ears and open your mouth it helps if something's gonna go off really close to

22:18you open your mouth and cover your ears yep what what what's the difference between opening and closing the mouth the effect of the wave am i understanding that contain pressure inside of your body as opposed to giving it a an avenue to escape Jesus Christ one of the things they're realizing apparently about concussions is that even just getting hit in the chest can give you a concussion from them yeah the head because you're you know you get hit in the in the chest and you're like I didn't even get hit in the head we got just getting hit in the chest makes your head snap and it makes your brain swoosh around inside your head and that's what gives you an injury I just remember earlier on I mean like in the mid-2000s it wasn't the only question was does your head hurt like that was the beginning of whether or not you might have sustained a concussion and then

23:03obviously learning much more now and where we're at it's like yeah you may not have even had any sensation in your head but you know it's kind of crazy when you think about how long people have been studying the human body and this is just something they've really got a real understanding of in the last couple of decades I don't even know if I would characterize it as a real understanding I think they're farther along than they were to two decades ago but I think the amount we know versus the amount that we don't know is much more weighted on the amount we don't know yeah I went to a high school football game recently because my daughter was doing this cheerleading thing and I watch these kids collide with each other and I'm like me a fight commentator you know and I'm watching this my kid out of there stop doing it yeah it's just to me it's I don't know it's I guess people I get

23:52that people enjoy the game I understand it I mean I think there's a lot of things in life I mean I'm talking to you the world record squirrel suit flying jump man so when I talk about risk and reward maybe the wrong person to discuss this with but yeah my risk versus reward wears out for you so far you're here today yeah I mean you're jumping off mountains with a flying squirrel suit if you're here you've obviously got it nailed I'm on pause for the Bay jumping for the time being did mrs. stump step in and put the kibosh on for the first time she asked me to stop no June of last year but of course it was tied to a very close friend who did a jump didn't go the way he wanted it to go or anybody would she happened to know him and it really was the it was the first time that I seriously considered giving it up I haven't touched a wingsuit since my buddy Alex died and he

24:50was my main BASE jumping partner overseas on most of the trips that I had done and I I'm not gonna say I shepherded him into the sport but I was there with him on his first jump off of a cliff in Italy the first time you put a wingsuit on and it's uh that one's stung a bit so it's on pause potentially forever as far as BASE jumping goes I'll still skydive but it's it's a question mark on the BASE jumping so you do such risky this guy that was like a skydiving that's no big just guy dive I'll jump out of a plane that I would do with my eyes closed every day that's the night risk ratio on that one is were we're all set what is the risk ratio on skydiving like what percentage of those things go wrong incredibly low so that you have a main parachute and a reserve parachute I don't think there has been a true double failure meaning your main parachute malfunctions you cut it away

25:44properly and deploy your reserve parachute and have that also fail in 20-some years people die skydiving all the time well not all the time because I guess it you know the population of people that do it is not huge but I would say the vast majority of people who died skydiving they they kill themselves they make a poor decision and most people who die skydiving died under perfectly functioning equipment really so the the canopy size the main canopy that you're flying the wing over your head the smaller it is the faster it goes the faster it descends but also quite frankly the more fun it is but with fun there's consequence so there are canopies that you can initiate a turn and if you initiate the turn to low you cannot pull the canopy out the turn you will impact the ground at a high rate of speed regardless of what you do and if you get under that canopy

26:38with not enough experience obviously your odds of making a bad decision are going to go through the roof so most injuries and fatalities at least from the stuff I have seen is from people making poor decisions under good equipment or choosing to execute an emergency procedure which would be cutting away your main parachute and deploying reserve either out of sequence or doing it too low where the reserve parachute doesn't have time to open to me that's not a failure of the parachute system that's the failure of the individual who is driving that parachute system so if you have a main parachute and you jump out and you hit the main parachute and there's a malfunction how do you cut it off to put to get the other one so there's two pillows one on each side the right hand side you literally need to do this in the correct order even though people have killed

27:20himself by going backwards so you pull to full arm extension you it's literally just a pillow with velcro that has two cables and the cables are what's actually holding the parachute on your shoulders if you pull that out a 3-ring release system which is basically just a load reduction system unwinds itself and your parachutes gone and you're going back into freefall and you just pull the other pillow it sounds worse than it is and before I had my first cutaway it was terrifying and then after you have four or five you're like okay I got this you had four or five main parachutes fail I think I'm at about seven well I've been jumping for twenty years I started jumping in 99 statistically I'm actually I think under uh I think it's like one in every eight hundred and eighty eight jumps you'll have a malfunction or a gear failure it's honestly like it's your first one is an emotional

28:15experience I would imagine you said what was the first one uh deploying a parachute and just sitting there looking at it as it's because they want to open and you can I can tell now and within an instant of trying to deploy my parachute whether or not it's gonna open or not just by looking at the shape by sometimes listening to it and just seeing how it opens sometimes I mean so packing a parachute people think is really difficult if you can fold a t-shirt you can pack a parachute sometimes though you you know you just get off of a jump and you only have minutes to make the next jump so you skip a few steps or you rush through a few steps is that what happened with you potentially I may have skipped all of the non-essential steps and a few of the essential steps to get the parachute really I was just rushing and I didn't have a lot of experience so I was stuffing the

29:03thing in there and when I tried to deploy the parachute it just it was asymmetrical so sometimes it'll it'll open and it'll start spinning and then you're flying with your back to the it gets that would be considered an exciting moment I would say so what happened with you what exactly went wrong I just came out asymmetrically the parachute wasn't opening and were you spinning no I wasn't I actually was able to recognize just by it should come out it looks like a rectangle more than anything but if you look like a rectangle that's twisted there's no way to fix that no way so just get rid of it and that's what I did I looked up and I said okay that's not gonna work reach pull reach pull and your reserve opens so fast like by the time I felt like by the time I had pulled the reserve handle because I had to handle that point by the time I had moved my arm to three-quarters of extension it

29:49had fired off Wow yeah dude but the difference and you're asking the difference like why is risk skydiving lower it's because you have time thousands of feet whereas BASE jumping you might have hundreds or if you're really pushing the envelope you might have sub ten feet because you're flying close to the ground as fast you can go did your friend Alex who died did he die BASE jumping or died wingsuit BASE jumping something that I was I mean he was my main BASE jumping partner what is the difference between wingsuit BASE jumping and regular base jump regular base jumping you just have a quick deploy parachute right so you have one parachute system when you base jump instead of two because there is not time for reserve to open so that is just taken out of the system right so you pack your primary or only parachute very similar to a reserve it's designed to

30:38open rapidly it's designed to take a lot of load but so BASE jumping is just jumping off of a static object base stands for building antenna span or earth so four types of object the addition of the wingsuit is really the only difference which allows you to like for myself personally I'm not a huge fan of jumping off buildings in cliffs without a wingsuit because I don't like being from me to that flag when a parachute opens because if it doesn't open exactly in the direction you want it to you better be johnny-on-the-spot or you're gonna have a problem so it's to me if you have enough altitude you put a wing suit on and two or three seconds the suit is mocking forward so then you're hundreds if not thousands of feet away from the object then your parachute can open up however you want it to have they made any improvements in the technology of this stuff since you first started jumping

31:30huge improvements I mean the first wing suits were literally just fabric that had like the little thumb loops you'll find on like cold-weather long-sleeve shirts sometimes seriously like Patra it on that's how they kept it on I didn't job any of those goddamn things but I mean I think Patrick de garden is how you say his name he was one of the first and they would just sit there and just they would just jam their appendages and lock him out and use their entire musculature to sail this fabric as far out as they could get and then the suits now are unbelievable so each wing like the wing between your legs and the wing between each of your arms so there's three of them they're totally independent they have a ram air opening so the air rushes into that and makes the wing semi rigid so it reduces the stress on your body and they flight characteristics are insane you can go

32:20you can get the suit flying faster you can fly it flatter you can float it everything about it is improved except for the decision-making process of the monkey who's actually jumping in that's the original one Jamie how that guy's dead for sure it says Manus Micky Morgan where he's that wingsuit is that ridiculous who is the first psycho that thought that this was something that they should try it could potentially oh my god this guy's like he looks like he's living in the 1800s when did they invent these things I don't know I know one of these guys died going off the Eiffel Tower in an exhibition this is 1900 right here 1900 what in the look at that guy strong you know what man if you living in 1900 you probably like lists and I let's just get this over living in 1907 whiskey's illegal I'm just jumping off look at that that is crazy so that see that yeah I mean that's I

33:27mean honestly I'm not gonna lie I would probably jump that out of airplane T 95 oh he's the inventor Earl Stein he died in the first attempt oh Jesus Christ he died in the first attempt honored to a modern hero alright settle down but here's the thing Joe there's like 60 some people who are associated with the modern-day wingsuit and testing and evaluating to get it to this point mm-hmm they're all dead all of them are dead every one of them but that suit like I mean that suit and the difference between that and where we are now it's it's night and day but everyone involved in the creation of these wingsuits died in a wingsuit yep man yep that is not good like it wouldn't be a whole lot of black belts and jiu-jitsu everyone who got to a certain point died you know I'm saying it's hard to justify rationalize the behavior for sure I'll be the first person to know what is it like what what

34:26is it about you gotta jump with his dog that's Dean Potter we're jumping with his dog oh the port dog so the dog the dog's fault the dog I believe is that looks like Switzerland crazy owner so Dean was insane right he's a world-class rock climber he's also dead from jumping a wingsuit he died in Yosemite it's like I said the technology advances I am not I was not there the day that Dean died I've talked to people who have looked at it as to the conditions that led up to it and one thing people generally don't want to do is place the responsibility on the individual making the choice but what from everything that I have seen he made a choice to jump at a time when he should not have been jumping due to visual conditions so even though the suits are amazing really the only thing that doesn't seem to be evolving is the person that's that's jumping it most of

35:18the time just like skydiving it's just a human being making a very poor choice to include Alex what is it about people and I mean particularly people like yourself that love these thrills like what are you getting at what are you getting out of that other than this mad adrenaline rush and what is it like what motivates you to keep doing that so I look back at it objectively yeah I think when I initially started pushing hard down that path I was trying to replicate a headspace or a feeling or a sensation that I had in my old job so if you want to talk about clarity of thought and I think you know we might have talked about this the very first time that we sat down stripping away all in Soleri that has absolutely no meaning but for me at least spend I spend 99% of my time worrying about things that have no impact whatsoever right so you sit on a helicopter pick the battlespace that

36:17you're in you get a five-minute warning and you really stop worrying about whether or not you have enough money in your checking account to cover your mortgage and then you get a three minute warning and then you kind of stop worrying about whether or not you just had an argument with your wife or you just sent off some snarky email then you get a one-minute warning and a 30-second warning and the closer and closer and closer you get everything is gone and it is still to this day the sensation and state that I have been in that is by far I had no question about my purpose and I had the utmost clarity that I've ever experienced in my life and you get you get used to operating in that headspace of just being in the moment the first 1 2 3 seconds in front nothing else matters I'm gonna solve this problem and move on to the next one this problem move on to the next one well then I lost

37:08that ability to do that and it sucked because I liked operating in that headspace because it it helped me deal with all the other in my life because it reset for me my what matters and what doesn't matter ratio I was able to get rid of like I would describe it adjust the white noise in my head or another way I'll describe it is like Jamie's got a bunch of levers that he can push up I think in this I'm included in this I think most people are pegged out at a 10 almost all the time they're white-knuckling through life but if you can get into that state where you have that clarity of purpose clarity of focus I felt like it pulled everything back to a three and so that state helped me in things had nothing to do with that activity and it lasted for a long time so when you're BASE jumping and you're standing on a cliff and you're scared out of your mind and you can't talk as your mouth is so

37:58dry and you have the pea ring on your suit which is why you always get dark suit so people can't see your pea ring and every alarm bell in your body is telling you don't jump and it had the same experience I wasn't worried about checking account I wasn't worried about what was going on in life I was just living in that moment and it helped me be a better dad it helped me be a better husband it helped me be better at any business decision that I need to make cuz it allowed me to pull all of those stereo levers back down so it's less for me and I can only speak for me it's less about thrill-seeking because I get that all the time like you're an adrenalin junkie like huh I enjoy I'm gonna adrenaline enthusiast I certainly enjoy that but I actually like what I get from the activity more than the activity itself what do you think is going on where people are

38:48pegged at 10 all the time with nonsense and that's something that's life-threatening can bring it back to a3 and offer clarity I mean it has to be something that you've discussed or thought about in depth I just think it helps you Control Alt Delete your hard drive a little bit it helps by not having like when I'm standing on a cliff right before I get ready to jump there is absolutely nothing that I am thinking about other than where I want to be in the next 3 seconds and by being able to focus on something so singular and maybe I don't meditate but I've heard people talking about it by the email to clear your mind it helps them deal with everything else I think there might be some connection there but I just I just think that the removal of the noise that bombards everybody all day long even for a little bit helps you it's uh you know you you have iPod or not i po iphone and

39:48head so headphones for sure right mm-hmm you ever notice like when you're listening to it you listen at the same volume level but then it just doesn't seem to be as loud so what do you do you click it up a notch right and then you get used to that volume level and then you click it up a notch and then use that volume of a receptor downgrade phenomenom your body gets used to it so it adapts to it but if you pull that stimulus out and leave it at that high volume but listen to it like two weeks later it's gonna blow your ears out mmm it'll seem loud it's not gonna blow your ears out but it's gonna seem much louder than it would if you slowly just incrementally started adding that volume so if it's there's something in there that is allowing me and I'm not recommending that anybody pursue therapy via the directions that I do but there's something in there that's

40:30allowing me to instead of add and add and add an ad that activity allows me to detach and then when I come back to it I realize you know it just it just feels different for me that's and I don't know if that's a good description of the mechanism but that's the best that I can probably describe it well I know a lot of veterans come back and really get involved in martial arts martial arts apparently is is good for along the same lines the same sort of noise reduction yep especially jujitsu when someone's trying to strangle you and you're fighting for your life and they're mounting you and trying to look so familiar with this now yeah I don't know what you're talking about being strangled or choked or having a huge person lay on your chest and breathe he's lying about being 220 she could have said 219 I'm not even sure he's lying there's no I'm 200 pounds he's

41:2618 feet taller than me there's no way yeah this just doesn't even make sense well I I don't have enough experience with jujitsu to to truly speak about the long term benefit but what I can say is this if I stop BASE jumping what I will replace that avid activity with is more jiu-jitsu because what you just described when somebody is literally when you're simulating murder yes right in your pajamas and somebody is trying to choke you to death yeah you are not thinking about anything else about anything else you know one thing that I do do that's weird is I have songs playing in my head well you also probably have a few more reps than most people so you can have that capacity for songs in your head but they're weird songs like Christina Aguilera I am beautiful like sometimes that'll be playing if I'm rolling but this song it's like it's almost like it

42:18sounds strange I never talked about this before but it's almost like like a mantra like a play certain parts of the song over and over again in my head so that I can think about that instead of the the actual the actual training and the actual strangling but you also have I don't want to use the term master because I don't know if you can master it but where you are you are at a like when you roll with somebody I was talking with somebody about this not too long ago when I roll with the black belt the outcome is preordained right unless they bought their black belt at Macy's and they're pretending in which case I don't know I still don't know enough it might be preordained but the difference in what I am thinking about versus what would happen if you and I roll in what you are thinking about or is gonna be massive so I don't have the harddrive space to sing Christina Aguilera yeah

43:11and you probably don't even remember half of the things that you do when you roll or how you think about it because you have experienced it so many times the weirdest thing about jujitsu and training and you know you could say this about striking as well is sometimes things happen and you didn't even think about doing them you just did it those are the weirdest moments like there's sometimes we you'll you'll kick somebody you like someone will move and you'll you'll move and then before you know it you're like wow I didn't even think about throwing that and it lands it's like your your your brain recognizes oh I know what happens here you know you step to the left and throw that left kick and it just lands you just nowhere to go and then the same thing happens with jiu-jitsu like sometimes there's a scramble and in the scramble all of a sudden you're choking somebody it's like

43:57this this movement happens and your body just falls into place I'll let you know if I ever experience that particularly well it doesn't happen all the time it's just there's moments where you're like particularly if you do a lot of drilling which I don't know how much drilling you're doing but this one of the things that I it made me way better when I first started training with Eddie Bravo one of the things that we did a lot from white belt to blue belt our was a lot of drills a lot of drills just constant drilling and drilling is overlooked and underappreciated because sparring is so fun so like if you and Jamie we're both learning together you would do a few drills okay here's how you do the armbar you're gonna secure the arm you know swivel the hips throw your leg over and tap good okay now your turn you do it over and over again that's fun that's fun okay now it's far

44:44like all right but take it easy guys work on the technique yeah it's a guys we're gonna technique but if you could spend more time drilling and less time rolling you'll be way better at rolling the whole idea is to discard these paths in your mind you know and then you when you see someone who like hits a perfect 'man re-roll like that is not the first time they've done that you know there's there's there's so many like super super high level guys now that you could watch on YouTube and you can watch them execute these techniques yeah and the thing that you're seeing more than anything is like how fluid everything is and how easily everything flows because there's so much efficiency in their movement because they've done it over and over and over and but drilling is everything and it's the thing that people do the least of so I go when I'm home I'd go five days a week and I I go

45:37to the so you met Travis today Ami's owner of the owner of SPG Kalispell which is where I train I mean I couldn't have planned it better it's like four miles from my house that's amazing the middle of Mullen up the middle the northwest corner of Montana to have that there is unbelievable how far you from Bozeman as the crow flies maybe 200 some miles but the drive there is lightnin l it's not straight mountains Risley bears yeah swear Pass seen any grizzly since you've been moved there no no they're everywhere they're waiting for you Ron I don't leave my house I just I don't like to you know I just hang out with myself I have conversations but I'll do I do an hour and a lot of it is just drill bass for that hour and then there's an open mat afterwards okay so I'm getting I mean I feel like I'm getting a good mix of both and for me I met the face like I'm such in the alphabet face so I'm

46:28like a b-boy like letters together into words later and when I roll I just tell myself you know maybe just focus on the fundamental so you don't need to create new techniques right and overall that's true and I try to relax and use zero strength mmm because I am bigger than most people that are there and I don't I've heard enough times that if you rely on your attributes early on what's gonna end up happening is you'll have success early and then you're gonna nosedive because yes and so I'm just trying to go the other route just be as calm as possible use as little as strengths as possible and just tap early and tap off it's my favorite move yeah another good thing to do is work off your back because you're a big guy that's where I started I actually asked it I said can you just teach me the worst position ever and I'll try to build up from there and I don't care about offense I'd rather

47:14learn defense that's that's very intelligent of you that's something a lot of people don't do and I certainly didn't do I was just trying to choke people quick like what could I what could I do but if you can get really comfortable with your defense it's the most important thing like Hicks and Gracie's always said that he's like the most important things to be safe he's like I'm always safe he goes no matter where I'm or he would have Hixton would have real like high level black belts start on his back with a fully locked in rear naked choke really and then he would defend and then he would always tap them I mean honestly to me that's like holding a 45-pound plate up letting go and I just hovers I'm at just yeah beyond my understanding how they're able to do that well there's levels you know there's levels to everything I miss i opening when I started I'm like ill yet like this is

48:08obviously a simple recipe go to gym tap people out there's nothing in-between I got this and then after bike my first 20 minutes like oh it's humbly again but so that's one of the best parts about it like I know so my body tells me like I know who I'm gonna have a really really tough role with and they're probably gonna beat me and I can feel it bouncing against my ego but I if I just go roll with that go over there I bet you'll be successful and I feel that inherently mm-hmm and I'll just go roll with the person I know who is probably gonna beat me because that I love that choice one something that protects your ego and something that keeps it in check yeah because it is it is humbling and I've been a dumbass I should tapped earlier before and I'm sitting there they completely have me locked in but I'm gonna try to muscle my way out of this and then my arm sore for three

48:53weeks well it's actually important to do both believe it or not it's important to be humbled for sure it's important to have a realistic perspective of your abilities but it's also important to tap people and so you know I always tell people that like one of the best ways to get really good is to strangle blue belts get people that have like a little bit a little bit of technique and they have a little bit of understanding what's going on and just put the choke to them and but also drilling but then you know you have to roll with people that are legitimately far better than you just for a perspective enhancer to understand how quickly someone can close the distance how quickly someone can take advantage of an opportunity and and then also the the feeling of being set up to three steps in a row like one of the things like when I roll with John Jacques Machado is you know he's

49:43multiple time world champion and you'll see like especially over time the many many many times of training with him you'll see he's setting you up several steps ahead if he's sweeping you two to the left right he's sweeping you this way he's expecting you to base yeah when you base he's gonna adjust and when you adjust to him adjusting he's gonna grab your leg and then boom you're on your back and like yeah it's like he already saw the path and you're just all you're thinking of oh don't let him sweep me yeah but he's sort of trying to sweep you I mean if you just give in like a he'll sweep you but he's really wanting you to base yeah and then when you go to defend the base then he's gonna trap you and then when you go to try to adjust for the trap whoops he's got your leg and you're on your back and then his knees on your belly like yeah and he saw the

50:33whole thing so many steps ahead I mean it's a beautiful art form it really is because you know I always say like about the guys that I know that are like some of the best guys in the world they're so different than what you'd expect they're really like nerd assassins yeah because they're really smart because you're thinking almost like it's it's like kinetic chess you're thinking about all these moves it's just that you can get your chess pieces to move better than other people's chess piece can it's like chess but you can make your chest if you do a lot of box jumps and plyos and you know you do heavy duty strength and conditioning routines you can get your chess pieces to move better you can get everything to you can give your chess pieces more endurance you can you know you can prolong your your ability to train and roll it's been great and like I said it you know in

51:24those moments where you're getting choked or I can't breathe like it's the same type of focus it is the singular goal in your life to not get murdered yeah and I feel it for me it's been crazy healthy I can't speak to the larger veteran community but I can absolutely say for me it's beneficial I think it's beneficial for a lot of veterans I talked to a lot of them that trained and they've said that you know and a lot of them gets super addicted yeah you know they're they're they're five six days a week and you know wrapping up their elbows and the wrists and taping up their fingers and they don't give a they just want to keep going they'll literally roll like this with one arm because their shoulders blown out yeah I'm like you're not gonna take time off I'm just gonna work around it work around it which is not always good because eventually you there I know

52:09a lot of guys who've reached a point where they're maybe could have rehabbed something and now they have to have surgery because they've kind of blown it out to the point where it's dangling how much do you still roll very little really yeah I wanna do it yeah I've had some significant injuries I really backed off a couple years ago because I had some bulging discs that were impacting my nerves and they were making my hands hurt and my elbows hurt and it was a my neck had some bulging discs that were pressing against my nerves and I got Regina keen on that I did some spinal decompression and I relieved all that then I tore some meniscus and I had some shoulder injuries the shoulder injuries yeah the shoulder injuries were really bothersome because it was also with archery and I was really worried about not being able with archery yeah I love it too much and so I rehabbed those

53:04almost a hundred percent my left ones still a little wonky but I'm ready to roll I'm gonna do I'm gonna train with John Jacques either this week or next week and we're going to do a so I'll get back into it once once that happens so with you when did you start do Jitsu 96 okay so substantial period of time with that amount of time off that you essentially had to take what impact would that have for you it'll have a little bit of impact on my timing but luckily during this entire time I've worked out very hard okay so my body's physically in very good shape like today I ran the mountains for the first time in like six weeks since my meniscus injury and it seems to be a hundred percent I mean maybe not a hundred percent but no pain at all and I ran a good steep course or it's you know like heavy-duty running in in the hills and I was getting cysts like recurring cysts because the where

53:55the meniscus tear was there was some you know it was loose and so like as I'm pounding the blood would pull up and then it would you know swell up and I had to get it drained and they'd stick this fat needle in there and suck all this puss out it was nasty so I got exosomes and platelet-rich plasma six weeks ago so from then I waited the six weeks but during that time period I mostly did that echo bike yeah that rogue echo bike because it's not impactful so it doesn't put that pounding on the knee that was causing the cyst but man does that think build your cardio up oh it's designed by Satan it's amazing yeah Tabata z-- 22 2010 yeah 20 second sprint ten second rest those are incredible that bike will give you everything that you're willing to take yeah yeah yeah really well so I'm really pleased with myself that I didn't allow myself to get out of shape because when I ran today I was

54:51like Fox been six weeks is gonna be brutal it wasn't brutal it was normal because I've been doing the echo bike so it's maintained my cardiovascular level which was always my weakest point but and so your knowledge and experience base in jiu-jitsu and I asked because like I said I've been at this for six months I'll take a week off for travel and I'll go back to a class and I feel like I have a massive disconnect between knowledge and getting my body to work because yeah and I suspect it's because I'm thinking too much right whereas like I was saying you you have the ability to listen to Miley sighs turn your head or what her name Christina Aguilera I like Miley Cyrus - awesome people are into weird I'm not gonna put a value judgment on that whereas I don't so even if I take time off it's I I really really struggle with it because I can't connect dots so it's definitely there's a

55:39difference though the the pathways get sharper when I train more like last time I was doing like serious training was over a year ago and when I was doing that like after a few sessions the pathways sharpened and like you know you clinch up there's less hesitation there's more of an understanding of what's got to take place it's more of like a familiarity with training yeah but you know as you get older you know I'm 51 now the thing that happens is your joints and your your body does not want to hold up to this continued stress so you have to really be careful about when to train and how hard you train like my friend Eddie Bravo is going through that right now he has a fake disc now and his lower back here there was a disc replaced with a titanium articulating disc he had knee surgery he had shoulder surgery and he now he needs wrist surgery you know this

56:33is all within like you know a couple years and he's a couple years younger than me so his body is hitting that that point where this is years and years knee is a strain and pull and choke and resist and base and push and your body just doesn't want to do that all the time so you have to be you have to be smart in terms of how much stress and how much recovery you put on I think you also have to be really smart about working on your flexibility and working on your recovery whether it's through cryotherapy or sauna use or massage but rest - you can't train like a wild demon six days a week when you're 50 you just can't you might get a couple of days in hard but you also have to understand like flow rolls yeah flow rolls are giant it's the same thing with flow sparring like I remember some of the best gains that I made as a kickboxer with training with guys who I

57:26knew I could trust to not brain me like that we would tap each other and so then you're carving pathways but you're not taking the kind of abuse that you take if you're just going to because sometimes sparring it's not really sparring you're fighting you're fighting people in the gym you just get together and you lacing up your gloves you tapping gloves they say go the bell goes off and you're full blasting each other and it's this more common than not especially in the early days I kind of find that to be the case with two white belts we're not saying because you got to do the blood circle to make sure nobody's gonna get hurt by the freaking momentum yeah I don't sing around the gym it's like hey buddy you want to just work on that technique and they look at you and go uh-huh I'm like oh yeah they're just trying to kill ya they're trying to kill you yeah yeah

58:13there's a lot of that it's really uncomfortable when someone does that to you to you like god dammit don't have to do this with you you know like sometimes you could choke them quick and they'll calm down and sometimes it just makes them more amped up and then depending on the human I feel like I need to focus on my chokes no it's not my strength now are you mostly going G are you going no G as well I do Morgie that nogi only because it happens to work with my schedule so Mondays and Friday I'd love doing or I have loved doing the noogie stuff that I have cuz it's so quick yeah and I find that it rotates through a lot of the different positions and I find myself working out of other problems more than I would in like a normal five minute just to open role mm-hmm and I realize how limited my offense is because I like hold on to the pajamas and write basically hold on to the

59:03frickin doorknob on some of these caller it makes sense to me now when I've heard you talk before like yeah go ahead and wear that sweatshirt now I'm like oh I don't wanna wear someone wearing a tie someone wear at a time like I'll kill you with that tie I get a hold of that tie you're a dead man even I goose around your neck zip up Hoodie oh yeah I'm like oh man first obviously I would rub that zipper across your neck but then you're getting choked well how about a leather jacket if you're with someone in those in the street and that someone's a judo a player someone who knows judo and you got like a thick ass winter coat and they can you grab that brain you with the world you know just drive your head into the concrete it's been cool man I wish I wish I'd found it earlier and I wish I hadn't been so hesitant to try it earlier and the reason I was a hundred percent

59:48reason I was this cuz my own ego yeah but the thing is it doesn't matter like when I wish I had done it earlier all that you're doing it now like that's it's important like it doesn't matter when you start the thing about jiu-jitsu is once you're on a path just enjoy the path don't thank God I should have started when I was eight well you can't unless you have a time machine yeah and if you did goddamn it I would not want to go back and be eight years old and know everything I know now and like it'd be like watching a movie for the 100th time you bored out of your mind well it up I probably wind up homeless just know your stock portfolio would be amazing because of all the noisy right you like Apple yes these are gonna figure it out by Apple at three let's get some Amazon stock going like you kill it on that no people be like what a big thing an online book think trust me don't worry

60:35about it put it all in there put all your money on Facebook what's the Facebook you talking you know David Cho he painted Facebook he did like murals for Facebook in their studio and they paid him in stock and Wow hundreds hundreds means from that and he's just ballin all over the world on his Facebook stock they don't seem to be doing too well these days though not to stock necessarily a company I keep seeing them in the news for the wrong reasons yes that's a really interesting point right you know I've been focusing a lot on what like the what these people are doing in terms of social media and in terms of you know what impact this has on our elections on our culture how they're being influenced there's a woman do we we privacy yeah we booked that woman right Renee what is her last name again she's got a phenomenal podcast with Sam Harris called the war of information and it's

61:38either the information war the war of information the Resta direst a-- renee to Resta and she studied this she studied these these Russian troll farms and the impact they have and these fake accounts online and what they'll do is like suck for instance they set up two rallies across the street from each other one was a Texas pride rally and one was a Muslim rally this classic pairing and they do it across the street from each other on purpose so that they'll interact with each other so that people get there there's no one organizing it because no there's no real person on the ground because they're doing everything from Russia and this is just one example they do a lot of things with with black lives matter and blue lives matter they were having a lot of C's there they were pairing them against each other they were also they had black pages that were supporting anyone but

62:34Hillary this was their message anyone but Hillary Hillary Clinton does not support the black community we should vote for Bernie Sanders we should vote for Jill Stein we should vote for anybody but Hillary and what they're basically trying to do was weak in the support that the Democrats traditionally have from the black community and they were there doing this through these pages and there was not that many pages when you find out there's like 80 pages or a hundred pages they were running but then you find out the amount of interactions that they had with and there's millions and millions and millions of interactions so comments likes shares and then people are this message that they think is coming from people from their community is actually coming from Russia and it's actually a calculated attempt to so descent and to so the this conflict in America and the

63:20idea is and it sounded so crazy to me that you're like because I wasn't really paying attention to it that much but the idea is that they're trying to make us fight against each other about everything so that it up democracy so they achieved that goal whether or not they're responsible for it or not but it certainly sends seems like we're trending in that direction it does I can't remember a time where there's more conflict and more outrage and more people willing to like jump into the fray regardless of whether or not they're informed what do you think about the people who keep calling for violence it drives me crazy because it's people who don't understand violence I was gonna say the same thing I see the people most often doing it are the ones that are the least experienced or familiar with what violence actually looks like well there was a lot of that

64:06from Russia as well there's a lot of fake and Tifa pages there was a lot of that there was a that where they were telling people that the only way to get people to understand is through violence and that you must be willing to do whatever you can by any means necessary and violence is good if it achieves the desired result of peace and prosperity and making sure the progressive ideas get pushed forth it's crazy because people who don't know what violence is it's like here's one that people say they'll say to a martial arts person like they'll see someone like John Jones like if I was John Jones I just kick everybody's ass like no you wouldn't no you wouldn't okay no and all the problems that John Jones has been in one thing she notices never been in a fight there's no street fights out there with John Jones you know I mean I would bet he is least the least likely person to

64:52engage in that activity I bet you're right yeah doesn't want to do because he knows exactly the consequences let alone the legal consequences of doing it outside of a cage exactly but when you look at it from someone who has zero understanding they're like oh if I was that guy I'd be kicking everybody's ass but no you wouldn't because like violence people don't just accept violence you don't just hit someone to get away with it they think about that forever and they try to get you back and you they hire someone to get you back or they get you back on their own or they wait for you to not remember it and then they come around the corner and brain you with a baseball bat this is what people do people don't like getting up if you kick someone's ass they're gonna remember it they're gonna and this idea that you're gonna be able to suppress people by by attacking

65:35them and hitting them with bike locks and you know and not letting them speak at universities that you know you're protesting at it's it's madness and it's it's it's so confusing because it's not indicative of what I always thought of when I thought about left-wing people I thought there were peace-loving people or well-educated and instead you're getting these people that from their computer they're calling for violence like you don't know what violence is well the thing is - from what I've seen it didn't start with the bike locks right it started with you know shout this person down yeah and then it's like fistfights and then they're throwing rocks and then it's bike locks and now I hear people you know get your guns and and it starts to rise to that level I'm like okay yeah you people need to calm down because the theory of we need a revolution in this country like

66:24let's pump the brakes homeboy yeah but first of all here's what we need we need camaraderie we need to nice this is more important than anything we need to be calm with each other you know this this idea that yelling people down stops anything you're just gonna make people yell louder on the other side that that does not work that's not how human beings operate when if you want human beings to appreciate your perspective find the things you agree on and and work towards like a better humanity work towards a better more loving way of interacting with each other this is possible while disagreeing and this is one of the most important things I think that we could ever Express in terms of how to communicate with each other you don't have to shout people down like the the best way to do it is to try to figure out the points that you can agree on find out what you disagree on and find

67:15out why you disagree all right and you're always going to get bad actors right you're always going to get people that are in there that they don't care they're not reasonable they just want to win and well there's a giant problem with that kind of communicating because it's so absolute it's my way or the highway like that's that's where violence comes from that's where that's where real yeah that's where real physical conflicts that's where they come from when there's no way to negotiate there's no way to communicate outside of that I just think it's I don't know bizarre is not the right word I think it's sad that the vast majority from again my opinion what I see is people who are identifying with you can see on a street sign yeah like left or right like you're telling me that as a species that's is nuances we can get you want to completely define yourself

68:01and your ideology and your beliefs by something literally you can see just driving your car turn left turn right it's just I don't understand it I don't it's the exact opposite world it to go back to you know getting out of the military and just kind of entering into the world like what's going on yeah it makes no sense to me it makes me extremely uncomfortable I hate hearing people calling for violence I know and especially calling for violence when it's not necessary against the Americans when you what you had to deal with in the military has to be the most intense form of of conflict that's available on planet Earth the most intense form of conflict is war that's the real conflict that's real consequences you've suffered them physically you've seen countless friends suffer them physically that's the real so when you're seeing people from universities from these coddled

68:53environments and these these these people with it really an completely ignorant perspective as the as to what the actual consequences of violence are calling for it it's just bananas on one hand I'm glad that they haven't experienced it because I can tell that they haven't just by the way that they're acting and I'm glad that they didn't have to do that but on the other one it's a tough pill to swallow because it I just don't understand get for sure like I said it resets your it resets your perspective and the last thing that I would ever want to see is that here on the streets of the u.s. like I just I can't even imagine how destructive well it would just it would destroy our country for sure but I also don't I can't figure out and the route out of where we are so people are calling for violence right and got other countries trying to incite it get groups together

69:52what's the navigatable route out of that mushrooms okay I had one sitter that wraps the only way I don't honestly don't know I'm hoping that things don't have to come to a head I'm hoping that we don't have a Kent State or some some horrible event in this country where you know protesters and and the people that oppose them get into some horrible deadly violent encounter because so far other than Charlottesville that time that guy ran over that woman did a car we're seeing most of this violence being at least somewhat contained to fisticuffs right and you know the professor to hit that guy with a bike lock and there's a few other instances that people get knocked out and punched and hit with sticks we haven't seen mass shootings and murder but god damn it that shit's close it's especially when rallies and people are like you know yeah let's do an open carry rally and

70:46everybody show in there operator chic apparel with I look at the pictures of that I'm like okay you have a lot of stuff first off that's on backwards you know like I'm looking like okay you have all the tools but you obviously don't practice with them you know but the danger of just you know what's the next step first we're just gonna you know we're gonna wear all of our stuff alright well if it started at fist and then went by clocks and then went show up with your Civil War gear right what's the next step after that shooting yeah you know I mean I don't know I don't want to get involved in that I mean I well you picked a good spot where you're at in Montana where I live does not suck yeah hang out there and you know move in once the first few rounds have been fired the dust starts to settle I just promised I would want to come off the bed of course but the problem is is if

71:37that happens and I'm not I guarantee you I'm not the only one that feels like that I'm gonna get involved and it's gonna be a serious problem for those individuals because I'd give my military career see across-the-board average there's absolutely nothing spectacular about my career I'd done more than some weigh less than others but I've sacrificed enough that I am NOT gonna allow those people to tear us apart but it's the last thing on earth that I want to do but they put me in that position I know that myself and many other people are in that same boat are gonna get involved and that's I don't know if that's gonna help the problem but it's gonna get ugly pretty fast I just don't remember a time where the country's been so divided in terms I mean I don't know whether it's because of social media and because of the Russian influence on social media compounded with having

72:27Trump as a president compounded with I mean people that feel like they're disenfranchised and they don't feel like they're like you know you hear about this all the time in regards to income inequality people feel disenfranchised they feel like the system has failed them and that's why so many young kids are favoring socialism and why so many young kids are moving towards that they think that anything's got to be better than watching these fat rich cats with all this money controlling the world and that the only way to get out of that is revolution but damn you're you know like there's a lot of people that are not those fat rich cats you're positioning yourself against it or just nor regular Americans who happen to be conservative you know and conservative does not always have to equal racist it doesn't always have to equal white supremacy it doesn't always have to

73:14equal all the negative connotations you know religious fanaticism and all these different things that people always attach towards conservatism it doesn't have to mean that it could it could just mean people who are prudent with their finances who are you know they're they're cautious with the way they think they're more conservative and their values and their ideals this is there's no that's not a bad thing necessarily but we've got it lumped into these two groups left versus right and there's a very little gray area it's the tyranny of or yeah yeah it's like it's as if there's only two choices yeah either left or right yeah like where's the and where is you trend to the left and you also have some values that are associated with the right yeah are you trend it's uh I think we need to evolve you know I think we need to evolve the way we communicate with each other first off you know I

74:06think there's so much of so much yelling on social media that people engage in a daily basis I mean I jump into these little social media spats and watch these people going back and forth with each other I'm like how do you live your life that has got to be so stressful you gotta be freaking out every time you check your phone you know who's calling you a and who's you know who's giving out your home address and who's you know what kind of crazy are people doing it's so nuts right now I'm glad I'm late to the game on that stuff like so late if I enjoyed so I have two teenage boys and a 10 year old girl and we've had some social media issues with them if I grew up with the tools that they have mm I would not be sitting here with you today if I had had when I was 15 the ability to broadcast my idiotic thoughts to the world I would be it like I can't it would I tell my

75:00kids to Mike you guys are growing up in a time in my opinion is is so much more difficult than the time I grew up it agreed if I had a problem with you be like Joe I would talk to your face yeah or I had to find out what your phone number is or mail you a letter your letter and then by the time it showed up I wouldn't be pissed at you so would defeat the purpose I mean I've seen it firsthand you know responding the stuff people they're just watching and then they dive in and you know and like screen grabs yup next thing you know I'm at school it's like help hello mr. stone how are you would like to show you this I'm like oh my god oh my god but I get it at the same time right and I recognise the language that they're using I'm like oh yeah that was me but I was just talking to you right all right I don't know how to it's very difficult for me you got to

75:51come in okay I think your daughter's are younger than yeah my sons it's rough yeah it is rough and it's something that no one has done before here's the thing like if you're in your 40s or in your 50s or whatever and you have a kid today you haven't done that you didn't grow up with the internet the internet didn't even exist until I was a grown man you know I mean I didn't get online until I was in my late 20s that's when it that's when it existed and these kids that are 10 and 11 they have phones already and they have snapchat accounts and they're you know and then there's you know one of the craziest ones is kids taking naked pictures of each other because this girl got arrested for child pornography yeah because she was taking pictures of her hoo-ha and sending it to boys and she was 15 and so they were they were arresting her for distribution of child pornography and I'm like hey

76:41hey hey stop with the word of the law you do you really think this girl's a child pornographer she's no she's a this is we grew up with kids like this sorry I don't mean to slut-shame but I mean for lack of a better term yeah you know for comedic intent I had to use that word she's just a young girl's probably misguided but the point is we all knew girls like that and for whatever reason had this desperate need for male attention they just didn't have a platform yeah they would just flash you their tits in the hallway or something like that I mean there was always girls that would never had that happen he never had that happen oh I knew girls that would do that it was always like your East Coast guy though I was a West Coast guy they're different over there I would have to assume so given we don't have the same shared experience I think they're more savage on the

77:28coasts because they're the the children of immigrants you know or the grandchildren of immigrants and this is my theory on this is a my take on America in terms of immigration right it's like the people that moved here from somewhere else they moved here from Europe been there there were wild who's like you know what I don't have a picture of this place there's no YouTube video for me to watch but I'm gonna take a chance and I'm gonna get in a boat with my family I'm going to travel across a goddamn ocean for weeks yeah and then I'm gonna get to the other side and there are all these weird communities of people like you know my grandfather would always talk about how racist people were against Italians and then there was a lot of that against Irish and all these like immigrant communities on the East Coast and then what happens is they would get in their car and they

78:16would go this place let's go west and they would keep going until they got to California and I think that's why California is like one of the most progressive places because the furthest away from where people landed so the people that wanted to get the away from them they got as far away as they could and the even smarter ones came to Montana and then there's some people in the middle that went why are we why are we traveling let's just stop right here especially like you go to places like I mean there's a lot of places that are amazing that are like in the middle flyover States you know you'd call it flyover States but I mean there's a lot of great spots in Texas yeah you know you go to Austin you go okay why are we moving yeah why don't we just stay right here like this is great like do we really need to go to Santa Monica no you can stay right here San Antonio

79:02is pretty cool too I was down there with deadly twice in the last month and it like pretty cool town I've never been it's it's why I shouldn't say town I think it's an eighth largest city in the United States but is it really San Antonio are you sure yeah Wow that's crazy I did not know that we think about it James dammit I was told it was the eighth largest by San Antonio president and mayor no actually evident from black rifle go ahead of tourism for San Antonio I think San Antonio is like the fourth in Texas so it's like Dallas is number one Houston Austin San Antonio so four in Texas that doesn't really make sense it would be a thin the country I think it might be with like actual size like oh like way miles or some okay it's exactly right man oh so Alaska is the biggest state in the country in terms of distance and that you could travel have you been there much Alaska we go there

79:59or the last time I was there I had some interesting experiences actually the last time I was there that's where we do our cold weather training so that was there it was for work which I had fun but it was also not enjoyable at the same time those are real savages those people live around wild animals yes there's only like a hundred of them you know we would get a legit Kodiak Island gym number seven as far as population is it really yeah damn yes 1 million four hundred and sixty nine thousand so it's actually bigger than you thought wow it's bigger than Phoenix that's bigger than San Diego just under Phoenix Oh Phoenix is six I see that's crazy it's just just under huh it's just past Philly Philly's number five after Houston that's nuts man there's not more than 1.5 million people in failure though that doesn't seem right that doesn't seem right this

80:49number for San Diego seemed very low as well I thought it was didn't look to threes I don't know what they're counting actually this I just googled it at the top largest city for work is only 8 million what Los Angeles ok in the mouth Los Angeles 3 million nine hundred thousand Los Angeles has 20 million people and who knows how many Mexican folks they don't have any idea how many people have snuck across the border they literally have no idea yeah it's just pure guesswork like but what who's doing these censuses and who were they talking to like what would they have traffic cameras that are judging based on the amount of cars or to driving past them every day they don't really know I think it's a guess it's a guess they probably have one place where they have a video camera up where they can capture a certain amount yeah multiply it by a magnitude and then

81:45extrapolate that over like I don't know actually it's probably scientist they're probably pretty good at guessing we're probably I don't know um that should use that word that's our take on it though is is really essentially based on you know like like who's how many people are registered in this area how many people we absolutely know and then how many people have pushed into this area from other places account size it's the number 38 TV market somehow so it is what Antonio oh so I don't know how it fits in that number that way it's it's very strange how their accounts don't have TVs they've moved past TVs maybe they're just books was maybe this number one for book reading I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that's not well it's you know I don't know man it's it's it's an interesting thing like population because when you fly over the country you look down you go wow look at all

82:40that spot that people could live in like are we really overpopulated you know but then in certain areas and others not so much well in others you just fly over there's nothing there forever like I drove from Vegas to LA and there's some spots we drive from Vegas to LA where as you're driving you go okay what the is here like what who are these people that live in these weird little know out of towns that are off of the 15 not even the towns man so I used to fly a bunch from San Diego out to press kid and then kind of do that loop Havasu in like the Vegas area miles from anything double-wide trailer yeah just just dirt roads single but then at the same time you could because you're you know you're higher up you can see the geometric patterns like it's just chunks of squares and there's two double wides five miles away like I don't know San people yeah I saw one

83:40where this guy had this setup and they had a fence around his house and then he had a antenna like one of them big-ass ham radio antennas yeah he's just talking to aliens or fellow alien researchers who are out there looking for yeah I have I'd rather go into houses overseas that make entry into that man's house yeah probably less pathogens bless what's yeah less likely to get beamed up to the Starship Enterprise yeah - right that - I just wonder like how a person winds up in that double-wide trailer miles away from Barstow like how do you like what path you get from being a baby coming out of my mama's vagina till one day being holed up sniffing bath salts you know smelling your own farts thinking nailed it yeah counting how many bullets you have in case the aliens come to get you fortunately I find a lot of those people either have a lot of guns or a lot of

84:38bullets but not both at the same time you'd be surprised how many it's like wow you have a lot of guns where's your ammo I got a box of it over there I'm like okay and someone should do like a trailer park tour of this country just like as for a documentary just what happened how'd you get here like what is it it was your family from here like this is not a good community we got to get you out of here yeah what's your escape plan what do you escape place you're 200 miles away from the nearest city you're surrounded by desert and you have a trailer out here like what's going on man think about where do you go for groceries and how often you eat rabbits that you find your backyard sometimes probably Mike dude if you went to the grocery store II came back damn it I forgot the milk mm-hmm you know yeah find a javelina and suck his dick that is not a picture production have you

85:33been to Alaska much I've only been a few times where I go went Anchorage we me and Ari Shaffir did some salmon fishing had a great time doing that and then we did two shows up there and then I've been hunting on Prince of Wales we did some Sitka Sitka deer hunting bobtail barklow from Sitka Ram not when I went through but he ran the cold weather facility on Kodiak Island okay like 15 years Cody I can go itself with those goddamn gigantic huge humongous bears oh that's why I'm saying we had some interesting experiences that's where we did our cold weather training did you run into bears there are always bears around but also having a machine gun helps with that so that does make you feel better make sure feel better but not when you're sleeping at night we camped we would do snowshoe like just deep into the back of Soviet we would go and do you had to do your

86:26cold weather training so getting your dry suits on and swimming through the surf at nighttime Oh wonderful which is an ice cream headache over and over and over again as the ocean breaks over your head it's pretty bad and that cold weather emergent test is there we have to get into the water but just a pair of shorts on for five minutes and just then rewarm yourself so they get you to a point of hypothermia right to the edge it's I think as many things are in my old job there is a aspect of learning and there is an aspect of tough it out and you combine the two so it it sucked and there was there was a reason that they wanted it to suck but they're also trying to teach a lesson right but God forbid they just teach the lesson so they make you suffer to ingrain it probably yeah so one day you wake up and on the board like a little white board that has the list of gear you need it

87:12just says shorts running shoes I'm like okay this is February in Kodiak what are you talking about they said shorts running shoes get out in the Ford Econoline van so we all get out there and they drive to the beach where sea water is freezing at the edge and they say okay go out you have to completely submerge yourself neck deep water five minutes and then timer starts timer starts when the last person submerges their head oh god so you might be first you might be a be all fired up and it you're just gonna get seven and a half minutes is what you're gonna get so you go and you sit there and it's the coal it hurts for a minute and then you're numb the worst thing about it actually is rewarming it feels like you're just getting pinprick Tovar and over it over again yes oh that is barklow look at him standing up there on that rock well barklow has a great

88:03rewarming drill that we actually played on the podcast before for Sitka where he takes their gear and jumps into a lake so that is the telling ya and then rewarm himself with basically all Sitka's gear and figures out how to get your body back to what I thought was interesting that I never really considered there's that eating food actually ramps up your body heat because you have to burn off the calories yep your body starts processing the food actually good for elevating body temperature eating food especially if you can get hot food of course yep but just eating so the drill the drill he was doing actually had much more I would say educational benefit because they would make them they would take them there with all of their gear their gear list would say whatever they were wearing plus bring your tent your sleeping bag and all your stuff because we're gonna

88:49put you into the water and then you need to survive your way out of it so they would they would have to erect a tent they would have to get their sleeping bag out all after being in the water for five minutes which is exactly what a survival situation is gonna look like for us we went in there got back into the van and I sat in a hot tub and drank beer for the rest of the day so I got the understanding of what it feels like to be hypothermic and that just see they have to push their head under water whoo right there is either screwing everybody or was the first person to complete it now wim HOF does so much of this cold water submersion stuff and he actually enjoys it and loves it yeah you know do you think that there's a way that you could use like his methods and get through that with less pain potentially even though you know all of the skills that I used in Kodiak I I did not ever

89:38use a single one of them operationally I used his breathing method in the cryotank that makes Sarah pee that makes sense but that are those arctic conditions I don't know at least in the modern theatres of war were engaged I don't know where the applicability would be mmm so it might be a little bit of a benefit versus time expended to teach the guys that stuff hmm you know because unless it's we're talking like Korea probably farther in the northern you know latitudes I mean it's uh like the training was amazing like I said I didn't use a single bit of it hmm right but it's something well it's also building mental toughness and determination and that's why I said there's an aspect of learning and there's an aspect of just this is gonna suck right hey you guys guess what you're gonna do a 20 kilometer hike into the backcountry and snowshoes there is no end state to this there's no target

90:27you're going to do anything on you're just gonna go out there and you're gonna do it you're gonna survive out there and it's gonna suck for three days and then you're gonna come back you just embrace this up or you learn how to pack your backpack better you know or you learn how to move better over that terrain or you learn how to navigate that environment so there's always an essence of it but it just happens to be that there's usually a pain component with it as well you know a lot of military training is like that there's an essence of pain compliance and then the actual learning technique as well yeah it's the learning technique I mean it is really you're you're learning a technique to manage your mind under sucky conditions I'm graduated that is a technique as well right so I was actually having a conversation with somebody about this recently I'm of the

91:11opinion that really the only thing that I learned how to do when I was a seal was to enhance my ability to learn other things mmm it's your selecting for people and and to get to that point you got to maintain control your emotions whether you're in pain or you're hot or you're cold so there's that that essence of self-control but then they require so many different skill sets and so many different things that the selection process is looking for and then at the end of it teaching people how to become better learners and then you just refine that over and over and over again over a career mmm it's the ability to learn is probably the biggest takeaway that I have from my time and service I think that's the best thing you could ever really learn is learning how to learn yeah learning how to learn correctly learning how to actually pay attention to what someone's teaching you and

92:00absorb it and follow the steps rather than it up with your own ego and your own insecurities or whatever it is it's going to trip you up if you can get good at something you know you can you can apply that to almost anything if you really focus yeah and and then they would pair it with will surround you by okay we want to make you better at shooting so we are gonna go find world champion pistol carving shooters mm-hmm go apply your ability to learn with them and then do it for weeks okay now you're gonna specialize you're gonna be a point man so you need to be able to navigate and climb so we're gonna send you out to Joshua Tree for two weeks with world-class climbers go apply your ability to learn with them and then jumping and then diving and then tactics and then fill in the blank over a career hmm that's another thing that freaks me out is climbing did you do much climbing

92:48I was a lead climber up until the point where I don't have use of my ankle anymore because of the nerve oh and it's funny is I'm actually I don't like Heights how did you free solo at all uh as long as I wasn't more like than three feet off the ground yes I'm totally comfortable free soloing and moving laterally but not vertically away from the ground because I see oh my god Honnold I want maybe three times in a row and here's the thing I know he's alive I know he was on your podcast I listened to it and in the final scenes I realized I was sitting there white-knuckling my recliner like my hands were sweating I'm like I know he lives but it still freaked me the out Wow I mean that guy yeah he's something but you know what's interesting about climbing is you get the more exposure you have the less it bothers you like I solely climbing is interesting especially if you are placing your

93:41protection as you go if it's drilled and Bowl saying League or lead Eliade typically like uh someone's in front of you your rope as a lead climber you are probably setting the ropes at least a mile job you're setting the ropes for the people who are gonna follow okay most the time when you see people what not most the time but one of the disciplines would be there's bolted routes that go up a rock so you can just bring you know carabiners and put the carabiner through that and you loop the Rope through it and you're good to go another aspect would be is you don't use the bolted end stuff and you basically carry on your climbing harness a rack of gear so as you're holding on to the rocks you're trying to wedge a block or a stopper in or a cam system that it rotates to be smaller than as you release it opens up and if you pull against it it locks itself into the rock

94:26right so you're setting your own protection and you trust those things so that was the point that I was getting to sometimes you get to a place you know like this is the perfect piece of gear and of course you're all like six feet off the ground when the perfect piece of gear and then you'll get multi pitches up in the air should be two three hundred feet up in the air and you're a lead climber so there's nobody above you and you're setting your own pro and you're starting to get emotionally involved in the situation that you're in and you set a piece of pro and it's it's rattling around a little bit so I don't know we're we don't know how good that one's gonna be but we're gonna keep climbing and then the next piece of pro you said not the most awesome piece because you're worried about the one beneath you you don't want to fall so you get it in there and then you just keep climbing so

95:09sometimes it's awesome and sometimes it's terrifying and then you got to think that if you do fall all that force if one pops and then the second one pops you've got a lot of distance well you get I think it's double the distance if you're ten feet above the last piece of protection you put in you follow the ten feet to the protection then the ten feet past the protection clink-clink-clink and then it pulls on the pond the pro so it's actually double the height that you are above it it's not I've been probably more scared out of my mind actually the scaredy's scares I've ever been is a you were lived in Boulder right yeah there's a climb there called the bastille crack it's in one of the national parks and I was there with a buddy it was just me and him in a world-class climber and I was at the East Coast command at the time so budget was no option I had the

96:02newest shiniest stuff I'm like taking plastic off of climbing gear to go climb this rock this guy pulls up in a van with a Marlboro hanging out and you know tennis shoes that have laces probably on one of them one of the one of the shoes in a and an old pair of pants and he's climbed like every mountain ever so it's me and my buddy we're climbing our way up I'm leading this pitch so you switch one guy will climb he sets an anchor the other person comes up and they pick all the protection out so you can just switch and then the other person leads the way on the next one so I'm like halfway up this pitch and I can't move because I'm losing my I'm like 15 feet above the last piece of protection that I just put in I'm convinced that I feel my feet slipping off of the rock I'm holding I had my hand jammed into the rock and then you make a fist to like you know prevent it from falling

96:52out you can actually see alex is doing that in free solo as he's climbing up they'll slide their hand in and then they'll manipulate the shape so it pulls and as I my world is collapsing on me and I'm just sitting there I've got full sewing machine leg just sitting there just shaking I hear voice just over my shoulders I came in just put the piece of pro right there and I look over and this professional climber is right next to me with no rope in his tennis shoes smoking a cigarette which is what he was using to point to where I should have placed the next piece of protection cool calm and collected and I almost fell off the rock cuz he scared me so bad I was so freaked out of what he was doing that I almost fell I'm like you need to get away from me immediately he's like yeah no prob and just scurried up the rock and tennis shoes - shoes tennis shoes but you're

97:41not supposed to use tennis shoes I don't think it mattered I think the guy like he was a partial complete monkey he just when you're around world-class climbers yeah I mean they can hang on an edge that is like a couple pieces of paper mm-hmm and this in the Bastille crack is not a difficult route so I'm sure there was one right next to it and he just as I'm freaking out he's just sitting there just hey hey buddy and I didn't know he was there I literally almost fell off because he talked to me get away from me different kind of you but I guess it's one of those things where it's like you spelled you're better at it you just yeah after a week of climbing you will not feel bad about walking up to the edge and just standing there Alex Honnold was telling us a story about one time who's free soloing and he was halfway up and he well he was in the middle of this journey up this

98:33Mountain he realized he didn't bring any powder so didn't have any chalk with him cool so his hands are sweating and he's just climbing within it with no powder so he met a guy halfway up these guys that were using ropes and you know they were doing it the right way and he's doing it with no ropes and he goes hey man can I borrow your chalk and the guy gives him a chalk bag and he goes I'll leave it for you at the top of the mountain so he takes the chalk bag past these guys see it just keeps going and then leaves the bag for the guy at the top of the hill I'm like what in the man how could you start something like that like and apparently said that once you start climbing you are committed to climbing in order to climb down and up yeah that there's not enough money in the world that would make me attempt the stuff that he does and if I was a climber that had Olaf I

99:21was like you know feeling like I'm kicking ass on my hand fill my head sweaty feel my head just talking about it I sweat like a pig I'm telling I was watching it white knuckling and if I was a climber and he passed me was like hey do you mind if I borrow your chuck chalk I would finish that climb and never climb again yeah because I would realize that I am a complete and utter in comparison to what he is like if that's what's possible yeah and I'm sitting here like strug I'm like I'm out you're also built wrong for it you know you I think the thin wiry guys it's the way to go he also has like these gorilla mask fingers man his fingers just used to yeah just grabbing but he also said that he had gone through a series of injuries for the first time in his life like recently over the last few years yeah that was in the the movie yeah yeah like a compression of his discs and then a

100:10really bad strain on his ankle and he was gonna take six months off and so he just started climbing in a cast sure so it's a different kind of human I mean he also lives out of a van I mean he's world famous guy who's living in a van traveling around just climbing rocks did you have him on after he had completed that climb like they were yeah okay so he had been successful they were just probably editing the project I had him on earlier like years ago yeah and then I had him on again recently okay yeah it's uh the guy I would want to talk to is Jimmy chin the photographer who is capturing all that oh he's up there with him right that's the thing I when he talks about it a little bit more so in the promos for the film but the how sketched out he was to actually be involved and sit there in film and how much of a burden he felt to like stay out of the periphery and not

101:08engage get engaged in the head space and make Alex do something different because the cameras were there that would of course cost him his life right I can't imagine the pressure of doing that or just I wouldn't do it like if a buddy of mine was like hey will you come fill me you know freeze I would say no because I would be so afraid of just watching them peel off Oh imagine if you were up there filming and you watch they're going to fall that would be rough and they're of course good friends mm-hmm and you know this guy yes a savage well he's got his hands on the camera only well he's got he's got a bunch of stuff so he see his foot his left foot is in he's kind of sick yeah he's kind of secured down there he's got that carabiner he's got one going to his harness he's actually got two ropes going to his harness so he's kind of angled in there's like a

102:00triangle but he's a world-class climber in and of himself he also has a giant ass camera bag look at that big-ass bag hanging from his hip look at that position he's in - oh all this Jimmy so that's how they get it that's how they get into position for a lot of it he's jus marring instead of climbing the rock he's got basically ascenders that will I to push it up and then they lock on the rope hmm so he's got one leg in there and one arm and he's kind of jumar we used those a lot of the times as well but he's a world-class climber in and of himself I kind of think you'd have to be right in order to be able to capture that yeah yeah the team that I think they put together was like 5 to 7 world-class guys but there's a movie of him called yeah no thanks what is that what is that guy doing he's hanging probably 3,000 foot over nothing focusing on capturing the shot mmm I

102:47would be focusing on the urine streaming down my leg yeah soaking your socks oh like I couldn't do that but I could go to the edge of that cliff and zip up my suit absolutely no problem and send that off there and I bet you he would want no piece of that it's so bizarre yeah if he's shootin Alex who's shooting him in the Mikey shooting Jimmy in the Freestyle movie I think they had a team of like 5 to 7 people they had so they had long lens they had people up there they had remote cameras I mean it's a whole they obviously had drones flying around yeah well there was a film that you know that besides this film the recent documentary which is a thing is called solo Priscilla Priscilla yeah before that there was also a late night one of those new shows like ABC World News Tonight or something like that they did a whole piece on him and they had this one guy who was a you know

103:47world-class climber and said it's not a matter of if it's a matter of when he falls every innovator in the wingsuit world yeah is dead yeah it's I mean but at the same I mean I say that I would totally agree with that but I also understand why he's doing it I mean the end state for all of us is predetermined and I would suspect having never talked to the guy that he would rather meet his end like that than at 80 years old as a geriatric yeah I would imagine yeah but that doesn't ease the burden on the people around him and that's that that's the piece that was the toughest for me when it came to the wingsuit BASE jumping him there it's insane what's wrong with that man but meanwhile he's such a nice guy when you talk to Alex in real life he's a sweetheart you just you you root for him to quit look man you already did it stop I have yet to hear him expressed desire to do

104:40so though he's not quitting you know I mean different that's the thing you know yeah we're all know me physically I mean the way your brain ticks everyone just has a different thing going on you know I mean what leads you to what you do like what what is it about you sometimes you look at your path in life you look to where you are right now and you know what the led me to be in this spot where I'm 2,000 feet above the ground with my foot jammed into this wedge yep looking up and there's another four thousand feet to go and I got a chalk bag I got a chalk bag you got a chalk bag and the Sun Goes Down in four hours good luck no thank you not enough money in actual world yeah my hands sweat talking yeah and like I said I knew he was alive yeah I knew the result and it still freaked me out I think that it's one of the more interesting things about all paths in

105:37life it's like what it is what is it that leads someone to decide to be a surgeon what leads someone to decide to be you know fill in the blank whatever whatever the you want to do what leads someone decided to want to climb mountains this there's the way human beings vary and the way human beings find comfort in whatever path they choose whether it's you to being doing wingsuit jumping or like some people the public speaking is so terrifying for them that the idea of doing stand-up is just horrific like I've had friends that come to see me the Comedy Store and I'll be talking to them right before I go onstage and they're like do you have to prepare I'm like I'm all right don't worry I've been doing this I can do it I do it all the time so I do it because I've done it so often I could just go and do it whereas if they had to do it for the firt mean there's a thing a look on a

106:26person's face when you see them go onstage and that you know they've never done before like if you go to open mic night you can see it the sheer panic and terror in their face but you're like meanwhile there's no consequences what is gonna happen people not gonna like you yeah we're not even gonna remember you Moo yeah you get off that stage you're fine he might fall to his death from a giant mountain that he didn't have to climb yeah like that's real consequences but for him I mean for some people the other like the public speaking thing would be more terrifying than that I was gonna say put him in that environment like Alex you're not gonna climb today you're gonna do a five-minute set at the Comedy Store I think Alex would be fun doing it because he's actually I think he's doing a podcast now didn't he say he's doing a podcast I'm pretty sure he said he's

107:10doing a pottage you tell them he should start one probably because I think you've spawned thousands of podcasts well I spawned a budget yeah I say that it like is amazing to me the influence that you have it is unbelievable the number of people like I started this because I heard Joe talk I'm like okay cool it's uncomfortable like I don't think about it because if I did think about it it freaked me out I mean there's I've said so much stupid the fact that anybody would listen to me with anything there's thousands of hours of me talking out of my ass why did you decide to start one in the first place just for fun just for fun and just to around I was you know I was a little disenchanted had to come back to LA from Colorado and I didn't want to but it was just one of those things and when when I was starting it it was really just a goof I'd always wanted to

108:04do something like that because my friend Anthony cou Mia he did he was from Opie and Anthony he had a set up in his basement and he would do this thing he would call it live from the compound from his house he had a green screen and he had a he built the set in the basement I was like wow if he could do that I didn't have the money to do anything like that at the time but I was like but if he could do like maybe I could figure out how to do something like that so I just started off slow with webcams and like that and stumbled my way through it I personally believe that Jerry number one should be put into a digital time capsule and save forever it's one of my favorite things on e to terrible what's amazing how normal people like me hope feeling yes yeah well you do you'll get better at everything yeah you know you really do and I've gotten I mean just in the last few years I've gotten

108:54so much better at listening to people and understanding what they're in and trying to see things from their perspective and trying to ask questions that get them to expand on their ideas better you know it's given me an insane education in as far as in a bunch of ways not just in terms of gathering information but also in terms of how people react to that information and you know human psychology and how human beings react to controversial subjects or you know how they forgive people for mistakes to that's that's an interesting one for me there's some people that have such an an unwillingness to forgive people and they have no no empathy or compassion those people are confusing to me because I'm like look I know you up I know somewhere and maybe that's not sure maybe it's not digitally recorded like other people's fuck-ups so you think you're safe so you're being a

109:47hypocrite you're all like there's it's when when someone gets busted you know it's it's really interesting and when someone like like there's there's just so much opportunity and one of the things that I was talking about with Jack Dorsey from I was gonna bring that up at Twitter one things I was talking with him about was how everything like literally from here forth will exist forever and you know we're gonna have to figure out a way to recognize that someone from you know ten years ago when you were a 15 year old kid you made something made some crazy tweet you're not that same person now and you can't just bring like that did not happen with people with athletes recently they were giving him for stuff that they wrote and they're teenagers but it was something there was some big case right wasn't there something recently where a Heisman Trophy winner

110:37they were giving him a hard time for some of his past tweets said it comes up yeah once every other two weeks you know and they want to make it like the guy just said it yesterday yeah but I've already talked about there's no path to redemption of those people that's a real problem and I think there should be a path to redemption for virtually everyone who's not murdering or raping people you're not stealing you know people make mistakes we are all human we're all super flawed and to deny that seems like a real it's gonna be a real problem in terms of progress in the future and I think that's one of things that we were talking about earlier in terms of you know people disagreeing with on the left or the right and that this we've got to figure out a way to to communicate with each other more civilly and to like approach people like instead of approaching approaching someone's

111:31actions and who they are like they're the enemy instead of that look at them with the most compassionate or forgiving view possible and look at your the things that you have in common rather than the things that are inexorably separating you I would like to think that most people actually do that I think that unfortunately extremism is winning in the country yeah and the vocal minority just has a much larger megaphone or microphone in the non vocal majority I think most people do that but I don't think the people that do that waste their time posting about it or taking up the you know just filling the narrative so it looks like there's only two position that's a good point I would love to see some return to moderation or just get extremism in any shape I feel very uncomfortable people who go to any length like that well I think people are getting more and more

112:22upset at it and I think as people recognize it's more and more preposterous they're getting more and more there's more and more pushback and resistance you know what's really interesting with progressivism is that people are getting in trouble now for things that seem like there's there's something like Martina Navratilova just got a bunch of from people calling her transphobic because she was saying that she didn't think that biological male she be competing with biological females and that there are people who identify as transgender who keep their penis and compete as a man and you know her but her position was like that or compete as a woman rather ship her position was like that listen that's not him that's not a woman that's a man and they have an advantage and she was citing all these instances and so she got all this from people so then she said I'm

113:18gonna step back and I'm gonna research this so she stepped back and researched it and then came back and said no I've looked at all the data's probably came back harder she did come back harder yeah and now they're attacking her and calling her transphobic like ELISA this is not transphobia this is a real thing that you're gonna have to address when you're talking about physical activities when someone identifies look if you want to identify as a woman or identify as a male I think we should all support people doing whatever they want to do as long as it's not hurting anybody totally agree but when you're talking about competition and you're talking about someone identify I don't care if you identify as a giraffe if you compete in an apple picking competition with a giraffe you're gonna lose you're not a giraffe stupid right this is just I mean that's an extreme version of it

114:01but that's nonsense that doesn't make any sense if you decide that you're a woman and you want to enter into a weightlifting competition and you weight 220 pounds and you're beating all the other women by like insane numbers like there was a few world champion weightlifting winners that are women that are actually biologically male so they're winning weightlifting competitions just like what the are you talking about like this is great this is not a matter of whether or not someone should identify with something but it's you're talking about making it fair for actual biological women like there's a reason why women don't compete with men is because physically they're not as strong so and obviously there's some exceptions or some weak men and some strong women and there's some sort of a spectrum when you find yourself somewhere on it but if you're allowing biological males to

114:56compete with biological females and just say oh he identifies as a woman let him in yeah we're all being very progressive and then you look at the results you go what he just broke all the world records first time in the quinces and everyone's like yeah it's amazing what a wonderful woman girl power like that's not girl power you're you're monkeying with biology here this is this is crazy so what's the route what's the road out of that like what does that people getting upset and it's time time being timed you know of these instances enough of these things happen enough discussion where enough of the actual reality of the facts and the data or shoves and everyone's face enough that the new generation comes to some sort of a rational understanding about what is and is not fair as opposed to where people are now or they're just no matter what they're scared to not push

115:49this progressive agenda and they're scared of the blowback of Martina Navratilova who is an LBGT hero right yes she's a hero she was a lesbian woman who was a world champion tennis player and now they're the left are attacking her so they're they're eating their own in a spectacular fashion where you have these trans people who don't want to look at reality and then people that support the trans people because they don't want to be considered in any way shape or form anything other than the most progressive of progressive and it's nonsense so I think you're right though and the generational fix to it I think that's true of a lot of this stuff like I don't want to get asked all the time school shootings right it's like the topic of the day yeah I don't have a solution for it but I know it's not going to be overnight it'll be generational in nature just like it crept in

116:35generational in nature I think a lot of these problems people look for a light switch solution where the solution in and of itself is the exact opposite of that yeah I think you're right I don't see any solution to that either and I think there's a lot of positions that people feel like they're supposed to take and if you're on the left the big position that you're supposed to take is gun control get rid of the guns the guns are the problem look at all these people shooting people with guns you have guns guns guns and all the mass shootings what they have in common guns they all have guns in common and they want to take away guns and then there's a people on the right and lucky I've never done anything wrong with my gun you're not taking my gun and then there's this n'stuff unstoppable battle between these two sides and that there's a lot of factors like what what happens to a

117:24human that leads them to get to this state of mind where they're able to go into a school and shoot it up like what is that what what what could possibly be going on how do we stop that from ever taking place the these people have to be in some sort of insane pain there has to be something unbelievably wrong with their life that they're capable of doing this how do we stop that how do we look at that it's like if this is our global community if this is our national community how do we stop this from happening in our national community I don't know what the answer to that is I think there's an answer to stopping school shootings and not to oversimplify anything there's I would say there's a couple key issues one of them is location the other one is motivation you can solve the location issue like if we as a country were legitimately interested in stopping school shootings

118:14how many have ever occurred at a school where the president's children go zero why because it's defended right they actually take a proactive approach to it they're gonna have layers of security defense-in-depth they're probably gonna have somebody looking out the front door or a system looking out the front door controlled extra points entry and exit points you can have a metal detector you can have security staff on-site right so you can control the location aspect and you know I I go to every time I'm at my kids school or unfortunately or fortunately every building I've ever been and I'm viewing it from a pseudo tactical perspective at least so I'll go walk around my kids school and there's issues that I see from a perspective of somebody who would want to exploit that from aggressors perspective but they could all be solved but that doesn't solve the second aspect of that the

119:07motivation because I have absolutely no answer as to why a seventeen year old kid would think that a solution of any kind would be to kill their classmates I don't understand that at all and although people it's funny like at every shooting surprisingly enough there's two things a gun and a shooter and vast majority the time I hear people talking about the gun yeah I think we got to balance that conversation and talk about the motivation yeah 100% and and also psych medications you know you talk about that the rise in psycho medications got to be correlated with the rise of school shootings I mean the amount of people that are on psych medication and I understand that correlation does not equal causation it's not necessarily that the medications forcing them to do this but there's guys I don't know what study has been done on what is what is the effect and and is there some sort of

120:02a connection other than the fact that they're all on medication is there some sort of a connection between taking certain types of psych medication with certain biological makeup that allows you to have this diffusion of reality like this this this is some some weird thing happens to them where they're capable of horrific things and horrific actions like how much of that is monkeying with human neural chemistry I don't know that's why I think the location portion it's not that it's an easy solution but it's it is solvable but isn't a problem funding like there's no money for to pay for teachers they don't have money to like secure schools it depends on how serious we want to take it yeah if if we really wanted to stop it what I'm saying is there are ways that can't stop it I'm not saying those ways are easy I'm not saying that those ways are cheap but there are

120:50concrete things just looking at a structure from being vulnerable to an assault there are things that could be done but that doesn't solve this school shooting problem right it changes the address because the individual that would want to go do that at a school if you make a target hard that doesn't remove the motivation so I'm saying there's location motivation and obviously a lot of other factors the location one if you solve that you still got to talk about the shooter right and I mean that's where I but my head up again I don't I would actually like to see this country have a conversation instead of entrenched positions either the left or the right all guns should be bans come get them with your cold my cold dead hands right which I don't again I find myself in the middle of that I don't agree with either of those positions because it's more nuanced than just the gun and the

121:41shooter it's the combination of all this but I don't even feel like we're having a conversation in this country I feel like a lot of people are talking I don't think anybody is listening and I you know I go to the schools in the neighborhood where you know where my kids go to school I don't see a single change that they have made yeah I think you're 100% correct and that there doesn't seem to be any real there's no real plans to stop this stuff and I don't think anybody has a real answer and that's one of the reasons why it's so confusing to people because you could do well on it and roll it over in your head all day long and there's nothing that stands out as obvious like hey there's a fire go pour water on it that's obvious there's no there's no solution and they're low-hanging fruit the metaphor for the school shootings would be there's a gun or water on that right

122:35right but the more nuanced and complex problem is actually the human being behind it and I see people they just well that's too difficult so I'm gonna throw my hands up and give up you know I mean but also to I think it's important to point out that actually it's thankfully it's incredibly rare that it actually happens and it's funny because you look at the stats and you start digging into where the stats come from and two groups of people and I'm sure you see this across a variety of topics we'll take the same study and derive two different sets of numbers there's school shootings and then there's shootings that happen at schools and you can make one number look bigger and one number looks smaller like if you wanted to include the number of people who commit suicide in a school parking lot which at a national level is considered a school shooting because it occurred at a school

123:20you can inflate and conflate the number of times in the frequency with which it happens if you strip that information out it gives you a much more accurate perspective of how often it's happening same thing when you remove suicides from gun violence Brian and the total number of deaths so but again that takes a refined and nuanced person that's willing to actually look at it as opposed to just repeating what their bumper sticker says yeah I saw that when Ted Nugent debated Piers Morgan on television was talking to him about gun violence and the actual numbers and he was saying well this is these are the real statistics and this is why the numbers are so high how many of these when you're including gun violence how these people are like criminals are being shot in the act by police officers how many of them are people defending their home from a break-in how many of

124:04them are suicides how many once you get through that you get to the end of it then you get to gang violence how many how many of them are responsible how many deaths are attributed to gang violence how many deaths are attributed to you know I mean there's there's there's a lot of different factors then you get to these mass shootings yep so the the mass shootings it's it it's a relatively small percentage but that doesn't give anybody any comfort for anybody that suffer of course it doesn't and again it's it doesn't excuse it it's just thankfully it happens infrequently I wish the number was zero we're now at and I think the answer to getting it to 0 will be generational because it grew generationally you know I think it will go away generationally but how does it go to what what what fundamental changes have to happen in the way human beings exist that we

124:58stopped any anything that right now works all the different I mean it would be a terrible world that we said hey we're just gonna have to accept that people are never going to evolve socially emotionally whatever it is it's causing people to lash out the way they do what I mean what a horrible world it would be if we say no that people just gonna be like this forever we're not just flawed but flawed and ruthless and cruel and violent and awful and that's just the way people are forever I mean I think there's improvements you can make on both sides right so there's a there's a gun and there's a shooter there are I couldn't be a more vehement supporter of the Second Amendment like I completely and utterly support it but I'm anti irresponsibility you know and there's a lot of things that we could do as a nation that would improve safety via responsibility I mean look at this the

125:52the stats on the percentage of American gun owners that don't own a safe it's over 50% you know which is speaks to access and what sucks about any improvements that we make I you'll never know about it because you're never gonna know about the school shooting that you stopped really you know what I mean Brian because it doesn't make the but that doesn't mean my default position is we can do better there's ways that we could I think that the reasonable gun legislation that already exists there's ways that we could improve communication interagency like the Aurora shooter is a perfect example it took a pistol and killed five people the day he got fired and injured five police officers he shouldn't have had the gun he was a convicted felon his felony did not show up when they had the background check for his job but it did show up for the background check I

126:39believe for his concealed weapons permit but oftentimes I see it where there's this disconnect between agencies not sharing information very much like the military civilian military infrastructure prior to 9/11 agency didn't want to talk to the FBI and the NSA because budget and relevancy and this is mine and that's yours and you know this is my rights we'll get the away from you don't want to share information I think we could do better on the regulations that are in place I'm not saying add anymore but maybe let's figure out a way where we could share information or at least make sure we're living up to the letter of the intent and the letter of the law on that side of the house and then on the other side of the house I you had a pin tweet for a long time and I'm going to totally murder this when it comes to exactly what it was but something Long's we're

127:23not we don't have a gun prices we have a mental health crisis I say we have a mental health crisis disguises a gun crisis or a mental health problem decides a gun problem it just like we can do better on the firearm side of the house we can do better on the mental health side of the house and I just see people throwing their hands up and attacking the low-hanging fruit because I think the mental health side of the house is a more difficult issue than the firearm issue I think it's the most difficult issue you know and I think everyone that I know including myself has had bad moments in their life and has struggled and the the struggle especially mental health struggle struggle with depression or being unhappy or anger or any of the things that keep you off of a healthy baseline those those those moments in life are they vary wildly in how people experience them what to what level

128:18people experience them what impact they have on them and whether or not their can recover from these things and for some people they feel like there is no recovery and the only way out is to just go out with a bang like literally and then this is a lot of what you're seeing in these school shootings is suicide-by-cop yeah I mean this this is one of the things that people want that they want to go out in a blaze of glory and what what the is going on where we let people get to that point without stepping in and and trying to help and do they have anybody that even notices do they have anyone around them that knows that this up and this far gone you know I mean we all like to think that that could never happen to us that we could never get to a point where we're so despondent and filled with anger and hate and fear and and self-loathing that we want to do

129:04something horrific but every person who does something horrific is a human being right and the difference between you and them might be genetic it might be environmental it might be life experience but they are a human being just like you and I and something horrific Lee went wrong in their life to the point where they are in this position where they show up at that that's cool shooting in Illinois just a couple days ago some guy got fired yep went back to work and just shot everybody up like what the that guy worked there for 15 years like what is it that that gets when someone gets to a point where this is this is what flashes in their mind is the solution go back with a gun make everybody pay I felt it myself that feeling overseas when I'd lose close friends the first absolute feeling you have isn't as a an anger that I don't have the vocabulary to describe and all you

130:01want to do is burn the world to the ground but it was fleeting and I didn't do it and I just don't know how we provide the barrier for people if they can and when it comes to mental health I mean somebody with more horsepower between the ears than me India's gonna need to solve that problem cuz I don't understand it but I do understand that feeling but what I needed was time and I don't know how to provide that but you also had character and discipline and a lot of things that many people lack in your ability to mitigate these horrific feelings and this severe depression and some people don't have those mental health tools they don't have those tools I mean you already a seal right you're at a guy who's endured more than most human beings will ever in terms of physically and emotionally and how to get through that hump to become one of the elite operators in this country that

130:56just having that as a baseline like having that as a you you you have the tool set to endure more than most some people are just not capable of handling any real adversity anything bad that comes down the pipe for them they just fall apart and I think for many people there's a real extreme feeling of a lack of purpose in life there's an extreme feeling of a lack of a lack of meaning that that nothing they do matters that they don't matter that no one cares about them whether they're or they're gone people either mock them or disregard them all together and they they want people to know who they are and that's one of the reasons why they do these things I can see that for sure but again if I'm being objectively honest about myself I did have those tools and probably the only thing that prevented me from acting out in that moment is that I didn't have access to

131:58the individuals that I wanted to act out against and I I mean it's like I said I understand it I don't have a solution for it at all but I understand it yeah well you would be able to understand it more than most in coming from that place of having lost friends and being in that intense and also being in this environment where people are shooting and killing people on a regular basis and you're directly a part of that and directly connect it to it it makes violence so much more tangible well I mean at the same time I don't want to pay in a horrible picture there is a ton of misconceptions about what I used to do right yes and it comes from books and movies and TV shows because in 60 minutes all that happens is bullets whizzing by your head and blowing up the reality is you're not exposed to violence that often overseas you are over a long term I guess in the

132:48aggregate but it's not as bad as people it's not as bad as people I think often would maybe want to romanticize it as being bad because then they can maybe excuse away behaviors that come from that does that bother you about movies when you see movies about you should if if my wife was here all you'd have to say is do you enjoy watching a war movie with your husband oh my god she just said get out of the room get out of the room because I can't do it like it's just it's it drives me nuts but it also sets bad expectations I mean I had some of the best times of my life overseas as well and it wasn't all about loss and it certainly wasn't all about loss of life there be whirlwind periods of time where that happened and there'd be other periods of time where you know we're just training people you know or we're going out and actually meeting leaders in the city and having meals with them

133:34and then yeah that night you might get your stuff on and go banging for a night but the same time it's a it's a mix of all of those things it's I'm grateful for the experiences that I have from a military service probably the best day of my life was the day I got shot I changed my perspective of who I thought about who I thought I was it forced me to lift my head up and think about the future more than just the job that I had because my ability to do my job is thrown into my face I thought I was one once I realized I wasn't gonna die I was like oh my god I'm not gonna be able to do the job I've always wanted to do for the rest of my life so I started think about the future again I wouldn't I would not be sitting here talking you today if I hadn't had been shot and when it happened in that moment it was the worst day of my life and I look back on it and it probably was the most May it

134:21wasn't the best day of my life but perhaps one of the most meaningful changes in direction for me as a human being so there is positive that comes out of that negative it's not all bad it's I think I got more positive more good than bad from 15 years at war that's it's interesting that that does happen right that some bad moment in your life could lead to a greater life overall yeah complete shift in perspective I had never thought about anything in my life except an insatiable desire to be a seal and then I became a seal I'm like this is awesome because there's pre 9/11 so we just worked out drank and then we and drank and then 9/11 happened and I Mike my world went from conceptual to practical and it was way different than I thought it was gonna be because I've watched the same movies right and then you get over there like oh wow this is this is substantially substantially

135:21different and it built and it was a lot of the things that I thought it wasn't gonna be and even more than I thought it possibly could be in some of those directions but I don't know it people I think often paint war or the experiences associated with war is solely negative and I also just like when it comes to the conversations and being on the stream extremes I would love to pull that more back into the middle and actually have a conversation about it I think amazing changes can come from people in those environments what is it about war movies that drive you the most crazy the fact that almost everything in them isn't accurate almost everything biggest thing that drives me crazy is when grenades create a fireball really well yet cuz it happens in like every movie they throw a grenade and a 55-gallon drum of gasoline explodes right and people go flying

136:16backwards and cars flip over if you throw a grenade it goes pop and it puts some dust up in the air and if you're waiting for the fireball you're gonna be there for the rest of your natural life it's just not coming and they're not that effective they're fun don't get me wrong but they're not that effective I did not know that they don't like create a fireball no I've never seen a grenade go off obviously I'm sure Jamie can pull one up but just cuz it's dust it's all I've seen one in the video that I'm sure for a moment like the momentary explosion there's a flash but other than that it's literally just dust flying up in the air what what is the best military movie that's the most accurate or the least offensive Navy SEALs store in Charlie Sheen really no not at all oh Christ that guy probably thought more people into coming to the SEAL Teams than anybody else really oh my god

137:08really yeah I mean he's falling through skylights with mp5s and handlebar mustaches you know there's snipers calling himself god I can't see anything I'm switching to starlight blasting people through a concrete wall they're doing freefall jumps are in submarines like that's an entire 30-year career to do all that in 60 minutes they you take that expectation you come to the teams like god I'm kind of bored right now so was that the war areas bang bang I'm gonna run boys yep I want to make it and he's got the the the requisite scarf around the neck and first I'll have one of those so what kind of wears a red scarf in an environment where there's no red yeah it's got green utility is on from Vietnam wearing a red the Shamal yeah this is so hilarious so another one it actually would you know Charlie now like such a psychotic partier and so apparently apparently so they came to

138:03the buds compound and did a little bit of training with the guys and I guess there was some bathroom breaks and they just like all right you guys ready for some more PT oh really that makes sense I've obviously hearing that xviii hand but I want to believe it's true well you know who I hear trains diligently and really hard and it like takes it super seriously and it's like one of the most humble guys you ever be Keanu Reeves that doesn't surprise me yeah it doesn't surprise me either but I heard some people that have had interacted with him when he was training for John wick yeah including my jujitsu instructor John Jacques Machado my friend he gave Machado's John jocks brother and a bunch of other he worked out with a bunch of their Machado's in fact I think Carlos as well but you know he really wanted to learn actual jujitsu so he trained with them yeah he did real

138:50tactical courses and and so his his tactical proficiency shows in that movie and so to get back to stuff that bothers me it's the 72 round pistol magazine County I'm like that's 15 of 2530 for the shotgun that has 48 rounds it's so that I can't do it I'm like throwing stuff at the TV my wife just points she says get out like I can't like so Sicario I love Sicario there's a scene at the border that has one of the most blatant just errors in the movie there's a guy pointing a gun he's supposedly a CIA agent he's pointing a gun out the windshield and you can see that the bolt to the rifle is locked to the rear oh no which means the armored onset handed it to him you know clear and safe and he just went and they filmed it and nobody caught it and I saw that movie I'm like turn that off I can't watch it of course yeah it ruins it for me now why don't they fix stuff like that you

139:50would think that you're making a movie about military or about guns like yeah gun nuts are gonna notice that they but they probably didn't catch it in the editing process so fast it's probably up there for three seconds but if you know I mean I you look at a gun and like you just if it was your primary tool for years you're gonna you're looking for certain things all the time yes there we go look first someone who doesn't know though it looks super serious well that's why they're still watching the movie and I left no yep bolt to the rear yeah to the rear yeah go ahead and pull the trigger there go ahead son obviously an empty magazine yeah hey silly yeah so nobody caught that in the editing process is what it is not see that no don't you think they digitally could have moved that forward a 100% could move because he didn't fire in that scene anyway yeah just push that up just Photoshop

140:45that way less significant thing I get crazy when I watch people play pool in movies that obviously can't play oh I cried nuts yes drives me nuts like if I see someone like it's supposed to be some pool hustler and I see so they of a bridge in their hand they're gripping the like you can see things in movies like my friends who smoke cigarettes say they can tell when someone doesn't smoke oh for sure yeah because like when you smoke there's just like a casual relaxed way that you're holding the cigarette and the way you're drawn it but when someone's like never smoked before and like yeah they've got this weird thing they're doing like how that guy doesn't really smoke like how the can you tell it cuz I smoke it's like another thing that bugs me as you watch and any tactical scene where they're like moving down a hallway and it's like why is your gun

141:38pointed at your buddy's face like that's not cool why are you aiming a strike and then the way that they make entry into rooms it's like awesome I like to play Russian roulette with my life as well drives me absolutely what about zero dark thirty that movie sucks what sucks about it you know what drove me crazy that time do we have that redhead lady wood is yelling at all those trained killers I was like I don't think they listen to her there are some creative liberties that are taken in that movie from soup to nuts I mean like was that person the lady who yelled at those guys the one at the woman who's in charge was that a real human in real life it was based off of a real human for sure like a lot of the things in that movie were based on real events however if you're trying to get tickets to get people's seats you know their butts and seats mm-hmm you get a

142:34glamorized stuff right so a lot of people because in that movie you know the the source drives up in the vehicle and detonates himself that actually happened that killed a bunch of people and cows if as long as you look at it as entertainment that movie is okay if you look at it with a refined I like are they doing this correctly no mmm they're all gonna die yeah I mean it's uh it just I we would need another four hours to literally go down a list of things but it's just things are compressed things that would never happen happen for the sake of creating an intoxicating or a emotional scene on camera and it's tough to watch because I'm sitting I'm like you know the door get out the door get out the door I'm getting anxiety watching these damn movies oh because you don't hang out in front of open doors unless you want to get shot now how many different things were up

143:28above that movie only the things that were after the opening scene solo movies a disaster yeah it's just uh I don't wanna talk about it dumbass like myself I'm not a good movie seems pretty realistic well think about it from entertainment it's a great entertaining movie right it asks the same question about the movie American sniper or lone survivor they're all based around certain things that have been enhanced to make it more entertaining yes it'd be and I get it they're there to make money they're not there to tell historically accurate do you know Marcus I do not know Marcus well but I do know Marcus I know him I don't know how he felt I don't know if you'd ever say he was making a movie yeah but I mean I'm sure they only listened to him so much you know yeah given how I can again having not been there and I can only imagine how horrific that incident must be for him

144:24to deal with on a daily level I would bet he wasn't very involved I would almost rather them if that was me I think I would almost rather say you know what just make the movie that you want to make because I don't want to sit here and explain exactly what happened and recreate these scenes and talk about how this person died over here like I would just go you know go to town is there any movie that you've ever seen about war where you go that that makes sense first ten minutes of Saving Private Ryan is unbelievable not for accuracy for capturing the essence of what it feels like and the switch between utter fear to excitement to joy to anger in the matter of a second another movie that does a good aspect or a good job of catchment capturing some of those aspects I would say is also Black Hawk Down not for accuracy but to capture the chaos that how a plan can come unraveled and how

145:21just how chaotic it can be and hence how sometimes you can feel so helpless but your only solution is to drive into the problem instead of moving away from it so those those capture the essence of it well from a technical perspective I honestly cannot think of a single movie that does it justice Wow it would have to be like a 50 hour movie though because of course I mean black down I think was a multiple day incident in that movies ninety minutes right so they get rid of all the the boring BS stuff that is actually what you do the vast majority of your job if I look at my career probably greater than ninety five percent of my career I spent training and five percent I spent in combat really yep and that is that's average I would say there are people who are maybe a little bit higher and people who are a little bit lower but you're not gonna spend more than at most maybe

146:17ten percent of your career in combat even if your job is directly tied to combat because you had a train you got to plan the missions I mean on our normal planning cycle was 24 to 72 hours sitting in front of power point considering whether or not I should hang myself or blow my brains out because we're arguing over the font that we're using to submit for mission approval really oh you're studying the weather you're studying the terrain I've had slides and mission briefs sent back not be approved because I didn't orient the helicopter the correct direction on the slide to like hey you need to fix this and then resubmit it like if you wanted to shut down the average day military it wouldn't be through a kinetic act you would need to put some type of code into Microsoft Office and we're done because we operate on Microsoft PowerPoint Microsoft Word and Microsoft Office we'd

147:05sit there and we plan and we would brief and we'd submit for approval that's three days then you'd go do an objective that would last for ten hours repeat the cycle on to 8dd for that it's what will you break up the tasks so each usually the last thing you would want is one person creating the entire plan so somebody's doing the communication plan the medevac plan the insertion plan the route planning you we don't ever really brief what we're gonna do inside of the objective because that's kind of the super nuts that you train for at all times like that's everything is to get there and then okay that's actually our job but we focus on all those other things then primary secondary tertiary plan for each one of those things phase lines for each one of those things none of that has ever shown up in any movie what doesn't show up in any movies is vast majority of time the intelligence

147:51is bad and you hit what's called a dry hole you go to a building you approach the structure you breach the door and it's just the intelligence is wrong it's either empty or it's the wrong person that happens all the time that doesn't it's not exciting though so we pay the people money they fix their door and we go back and we try to find a person again none of that shows up in any of the mediums because it's too they're too compressed with you all your experience in the military and your your knowledge of what the real world in these combat environments is like what do you how do you feel when you hear people talk about defunding the military or decreasing the military or that we don't need it or that we we shouldn't have the kind of budget that we have right now the people that don't understand the real threats that are out there and that if you do not have a well-trained well-funded

148:48experienced military that really understands these things you've got real danger at your door yep I'm glad that they live in a place where they have enough space to develop those thoughts because they're not under pressure because the military is doing the job that they should be doing there are like I said so many misconceptions about what the military does what we do overseas how many countries we are in overseas how deep we are into some of these countries how forecasted and how forward-looking the military is looking for emerging threats as opposed to just responding and all of that creates space so people can exercise their right to voice their First Amendment you know right of saying those things I don't does it frustrate you though that they don't have a real understanding I'm grateful that they live in a place where they don't have that great understanding

149:46because like I said they have the space to be confused they're not pushed under a thumb they're not being told you have to say this or it's gonna be your head in the square right I'm I it is frustrating for me at times but I balanced that with that's that's what this country is supposed to be about you're supposed to be able to voice your dissent right and I and I believe that the system will correct and is it does correct for itself there are people that believe that but I think the most the majority of people again silent majority versus extreme minority I think those people are in the extreme minority but they're very vocal I think most people are incredibly appreciative of what the military does but having said that if you've never served in the military and you've never been in a combat occupation and then you've never applied that occupation for real there's going to be a gap and

150:38there's going to be a gap in understanding and that's ok so it's frustrating yes but I'm glad that it exists and I'm glad that they are not in this country is not in a position where they are getting drafted and forced into that position I'm glad that it was me that did that and had to bear any weight or burden that came with that to allow them to have whatever opinion they want that's a great perspective that's a very healthy way of looking at it and I probably think it's probably the only manageable way of looking at it I think you'd go crazy otherwise because the other way and then you'd what are you gonna do go to a rally and hold up another light it's like what's a minute because it initially I have to fight back the initial anger but eventually it gave me a little bit of time and the you know hopefully relatively stained head is gonna prevail and I had you know

151:24again that night I got hurt it changed the way that I thought about things if I had never gotten hurt and and and I had never thought about my own mortality and I never thought about like I spent a lot of time thinking about whether or not what I did in the military has had any impact point zero zero zero one I don't know if I would have thought about that if all I had ever done was just doing the occupation that I did I needed that lifting of my head to have that perspect I did I don't think all people do but I needed that how long do you beiong I was gonna say I think that night in a in some ways helps me have the perspective I have now with those people how how long is the average career of someone who's a seal well if you want to retire you got to do 20 years in a wake-up and they should change it to wake up wake up the next day you got a twenty years oh

152:12you have to do 20 years to the day so wake up the day after your 20th but they need to change the term also retirement pay in the military should be in my opinion at least replaced with money that you are going to get paid until you find your second career you're not retire on three thousand dollars a month right you know but if you want to make it to retirement you have to do 20 years the only reason I get a retirement is because I was medically retired so they basically I don't know how it happens in the system but they put me in that category is essentially in the made at twenty years what what happens with most guys when they hit twenty years do they retire it's hit or miss on the enlisted side of the house they start throwing what at that phase of your life is gonna be a lot of money at you know try to get you to reenlist and I never took this money and so I'm not exactly sure but

153:02it's about five years of reenlistment and it's about 150 grand which is a ton of money if you're in the military and if you relist while you're overseas every penny of that is tax-free because you're gonna get it in increments per 150 per year total for the five years yep it's not here's the deal it's a lot of money if you're used to having your head down and you used to make in ninety a year and you're in your late 30s and you realize you know oh my god I could buy a house with that money right you'll take it right and and every year that you do over 20 they will add I believe one-half of a percentage point to your military retirement so if you do 20 years in the military you will get 50% of your base pay which doesn't include the dive paid mo pay jump pay hazardous duty pay all the difference in money that I made I get the exact same retirement which is totally fine and I

153:54signed up for this as a person who was in front of a radar scope for 20 years we get the exact same paycheck at the end if you do 21 years you get 50 and a half 22 years 51 percent so it keeps incrementally going up so some guys will go up to 30 most guys by the time they get to 20 and I will say this it depends on what's going on in the world when it was peak wartime 2007-2009 not a lot of guys were getting out most of the guys were reopen because they wanted to strap the boots back on and go back overseas and they're like hey I'll reenlist while I'm overseas tax-free money I get to go do what I want to do it's a it's a win-win but most people as the operational tempo has slowed anecdotally what I've seen is they are looking more towards the future gonna get out around 20 if not they'll get out around 25 after they that reenlistment bonus and if you're

154:42staying in to like your thirties you're in for the long haul when you look at the news do you pay attention to potential conflicts internationally and the things that are going on yes and no I not from a I'm not looking at them to inform my opinion I'm just kind of curious as to what the news agencies are reporting because having lived on the other side of that and doing things that will eventually make the news days weeks or months later the news is generally behind on that cycle and the military does do a good job and has continued to do a better job of kind of forecasting those things and spreading out as much as necessary but do you see anything now like you know I know Trump got a lot of criticism for saying they were gonna pull troops out of Syria yeah and when when you see you know the debate about that or actions possible actions against North Korea and all this kind of stuff

155:36like how do you do do you view this I mean obviously you view this as a guy who has served and it's been overseas but do you do you look at things like these are potential issues that are coming up and things you need to be concerned with the Syria and I'm able the Syria one there are guys from the community over there they've been actively engaged Iraq it's funny the news reported for a long time we've withdrawn from Iraq all US troops are out of Iraq no they weren't we've always had a presence there since we invaded in 2003 so a man and I can go tit for tat on a lot of issues where the news gets it wrong which is why I don't necessarily look at it for me to inform my opinion mm-hmm Syria certainly any area where we allow a place for and the only word I have for it is evil to grow it's going to happen the problem with the strategy that I see it is is that actually so we started in

156:40Afghanistan and again this is my opinion not the military opinion I can only speak for myself we ended to Afghanistan we were incredibly effective so we cut the head off of that snake but it spawned two more you go into Iraq you can argue whether or not we were effective but then all of a sudden we started seeing foreign fighters coming in from all these different countries and the tactics that we started seeing used in Iraq like my first deployment to Afghanistan in 2003 now 2002 it was not uncommon to drive around in vehicles that were not ballistic they were not resistant to mines it would just it takoma a thin-skinned Tacoma that bolt would zip right through fast-forward to Afghanistan in 2008 and they're starting to see vehicles being detonated by bombs that we first saw in Iraq that were coming across the border into Syria where they were had the

157:31ability to allow again for lack of a better term and that evil to grow to learn to come across the border to engage American forces than to flee into a sovereign nation we couldn't do anything about then we started seeing that in Afghanistan but we got effective anytime that these people would get together and have a large group we'd get effective that either capturing them or killing them so they realize they need to be disaggregated so now we've spread this I think the last stat that I saw is Isis is in 64 countries and the problem that I see with the US military is that we're very very good at going in and cutting the head off of the snake but we're not good at creating and holding infrastructure and the timeline required to hold that infrastructure is well beyond the pallet I think of most Americans in the best example I can point to is South Korea we still have

158:20bases with an American presence in South Korea that war ended decades ago we still have bases in Germany we have bases in Italy now we're not necessarily using them for the same purposes but if we really want to control that area we have to be prepared to stay there for that long and I don't think the US military one has enough personnel to do that and I don't think the American populace has the palette to allow that to happen do you think that that's necessary that in order to protect people from weather whether it's Isis or whatever comes after Isis I mean yeah obviously Isis is fairly recent right okay yeah Isis and they chant yet ISIL and whatever could be next so you you feel like we have to maintain presence in that part of the world period I think we should use the military as a measure of last resort I think that war should be a measure of absolutely last resort

159:17and I would love to see us evolve to a point where we use it less and less and less I describe it as you're standing at a dam and you can see a little spout coming out do you put your finger in the spout knowing that it's not going to fix the problem but it was going to buy you time to hopefully have somebody come and fix the dam right that's the option I would go for versus just leaving it as it is and allowing it to continue to weaken the dam or another sprout would come out my theory that the military is really well served to provide that space to put that finger in that sprout so yes I think if we find an area where these ideologies are thriving we have to do what is necessary to remove that ideology and hopefully destroy it not not resettle it somewhere else but actually destroy it so yes the short answer is absolutely if we find areas where we can squash this down we have to

160:15go but I just hope that there's people smarter than me that have a much longer term strategy because all we're doing in my opinion is the finger in the dam and is there a longer-term strategy like when you see all the global conflicts I mean is there a time that we get I mean it's it's it sounds insane to say that there's never going to be a time where there's no war it sounds like an insane thing to say I don't know if there has ever been a time at least globally not that the US was involved but I don't know if there's ever been a time where there hasn't been war I don't think their house I don't think there can be because and I think we talked about this the first day I met you there's ex people and there's Y people they're not going to get along it doesn't matter what your belief is you have an axis somewhere that has another belief and if you go to the extreme end

160:57of that belief that individual may be willing to take action against you violent action against you for your belief and there's no I don't think there's a way around that because humans are just too diverse but is it possible that one day we'll move past this I mean is there any plans at all to try to facilitate some sort of a peaceful world civilization where you know all nations kind of get along and some sort of a mutually agreeable way does anybody have some sort of hundred year plan is that hilarious that's a funny thing to say I mean they didn't brief me on it if it exists isn't that though I mean human beings are always going to shoot and kill each other we're always gonna have war isn't that since the inception of human beings it seems like at least at some level and it thankfully it's microscopic in comparison to the overall total right but it's happening I

161:45think it's happened since man has been walking on earth and the only way that we feel today that we can protect ourselves is to have the more dominant more powerful military and to make sure that we're the ones that get to dictate whether or not evil flourishes yeah I mean that's I would want maybe a I want the the dominant ability of our military to continue to grow but I'd like to see and I think it's already moving this direction smaller more surgical uses of it I just the military in my opinion is not good at building infrastructure and holding terrain for a long period of time it's just not were designed to do right it's not the design of the military for that matter what what is the overall view about getting out of Syria it probably depends on the people that you ask what about people that you talk to both sides of the coin III will get answers from I think we're making a

162:43difference too or wasting our time and I got that on the initial invasion of Iraq the initial evasion of Afghanistan there is at one of the things that I enjoyed about the community I came from is that critical thinking was its rewarded it's not there's no attempt and people think about this you know you watch Full Metal Jacket you know you choke yourself with my hand and you get told what to do and how to do it and how much time you have to do it people think that critical thinking has no place in the military but where I came from that's what we're looking for is people who are able to critically think so there would be we would have political arguments religious arguments philosophical arguments in the team room and then come together and go do exactly what it is that our nation expected us to do so you're gonna get both you get there are people who are

163:28conservative and liberal Republican and Democrat and everything in between so I wish I could give you a like a very precise answer but I have heard every spectrum of answer from this is awesome - this is stupid I have you know what confuses me I've heard different opinions on Assad whether Assad is evil whether he's gassed is his citizens or whether or not he's a victim of propaganda some a smear campaign like whoa this is way past my pay grade I've heard the same thing and it's beyond mine as well - it's frustrating cuz you know when you don't know whether or not this is some propaganda or this is a real threat or whether you know heat or whether it's something like the Saddam Hussein situation where yes he was an evil dictator but also removing him might create a power vacuum like Lydia at a power vacuum Qaddafi with Libya I mean Libya's a horrific example of

164:18that right yeah and I don't I don't know the long-term solution to those problems it's like I said I I spend enough of my waking hours truly questioning whether or not anything that I was involved in made my family or your family or Jamie's family safer but did I did I did my actions erode what the rest of the world thinks about the United States of America and I mean I I flow back and forth I think it had an impact in the moment I think it had an impact stopping the water coming out of the dam I think it was essential that it needed to be done but I don't know if any of that has an impact beyond that that time period that it occurred how much does it help you in talking about this stuff to give you a perspective like I know cleared hot your podcast yet you're very active with that how much does that it to help you flesh these ideas out and have conversations about them one of the most

165:17cathartic things that I do is talk on the podcast about these topics so and I'll do mix between guests and Q&A and guess what people ask me about they want to know about war and they want to know about that stuff and it forces me to sit there and truly gauge the depth of my beliefs and then answer the questions for myself as to why do I believe this it is by far one of the most cathartic things that I have done is the ability to sit down and reflect and I mean I'm pretty honest about I mean if people ask me about killing I'll talk about killing if people ask me about mistakes I'll tell you the worst mistakes that I ever made parenting relationship with my wife military fill in the blank so it's been huge and be honest I mean you know this I owe I owe the suggestion from you to start in that podcast I you owe you a huge thank you for giving me that nudge well you're so

166:08good you're you you were great on my podcast I'd you know I just knew you would do great at it yeah I'm uh I don't know I probably have said to too many people you should start a podcast but it's worked with so many with Jocko no no phenomenal and I bet it's cathartic for him as well too I haven't asked him about it but I would suspect that it's the same thing yeah he's uh he's a unique human he's an American treasure he should go in a time capsule right next to Jerry number one man he's something special but it's also like in terms of motivation he's a mindset altar er like you you hear the way he discusses things and thinks about things and if you can adopt those ideas and put them into your own head you really can shift who you are and and how you move through this world if you can adopt a fraction of his ideas yeah or it'll change your philosophy there

167:02are some people that I see go varied like there seem to be searching and they they just want to dive in it's like you know maintain some of yourself and adopt as much as that as you possibly can because you can go too far and anything but yeah the stuff that he's doing in the number of people the number of times his name comes up and in a positive manner it's unbelievable and I mean I listen to the Jerry where you're like you know what Jocko I'm gonna tell you something that I think I've said too much you should start a pot well you know Goggins is another one you know Goggins just being a guest in this podcast I know he hasn't started his own podcast but one thing he did do is if you listen to Goggins audiobook in his audio book he has the book itself which is read by another guy yep and then him and that guy discuss various chapters in the book and discussed the real events that led

167:51to this these different things and how he felt about them so it's a podcast wrapped up in a book and it's excellent so much better than just reading you know chapter and all that additional information and all the the breadth and depth that you can gather from that yeah it's an incredible medium I didn't know I think I told you this I had never listened to a podcast before I came on yours so I didn't well we went a little crazy on that one and I maybe you know I talked a touch about Guantanamo Bay and but I still would say the same thing I just maybe would have been more educated about the breadth and depth of your podcast it's I didn't realize at the feet again I'm a fraction and in comparison other podcasts out there but even the volume of response that I get to mind it's unbelievable the number of people who are consuming this type of medium is mind-blowing well it's free

168:44which is great and it's also it's easy you get it on your phone instantly so you could be in your car your phone is Bluetooth up to your car and that you say oh there's nuclear hot BAM you press play it starts playing yeah and because you know essentially it's audio is not that it's not that big a file it can stream really easily over 4G like instantaneously it's uh it's amazing you know it's just and to have everything free and instantly accessible like that so if you're a truck driver if you're driving long distances for work or if you're traveling on a plane anything scroll pick a topic yeah I mean yeah what do you want to learn about their podcast out there for it whatever it is for anything there's crime podcasts and there's comedy podcasts and politics and technology it's like it's never-ending and there's hundreds and hundreds of thousands of them they're all free yeah

169:36so it's it's an amazing medium and it's it's also a medium with a very low gate of entry like it's not difficult to jump over that gate or to get through all you really all you need is an account somewhere yeah and then you can do I've done a bunch of them just with my iPhone just using the voice recorder application from voice notes from a pod from iPhone record it and then send it to Jamie and Jamie will upload them like we've done a bunch of them on planes or just me and Toby inch cliff have sat on a plane and we have a couple of cocktails start talking into the into the eyes of the phone yeah its crate and then you know that reaches a million people yeah I mean the water box it's you can start a podcast for foreigner bucks yeah you get a recording device and some way to gather the sound and you're off and running yeah and there's so many people out

170:20there with unique perspectives like you like Jocko like there's a there's hundreds of them you know it's just it's an exciting time you know sorry I dig it of the medium well listen we did said three hours how crazy is that it's almost four o'clock it always feels like like 90 minutes I know well it's a time warp in this room and there's something weird I think it's this table something going on it seems to be it Andy I love you buddy yeah but thanks I appreciate you man Andy stuff ladies and gentlemen cleared hot podcast available everywhere go get it by