Robert Schoch

00:00ready five four three two one mr shark first of all thank you very very very much for being here i've been following your work for a long time now and i'm very appreciative of you and very appreciative of everything you've done and i've been fascinated by the subject of ancient egypt so i'm i really i'm really excited very excited thank you it's a real pleasure to be here i've heard a lot about your show i've heard a lot about you my um of course would like john anthony west i think was on with you a couple of times maybe yeah he was very proud that i guess you did the only full skype interview with him yeah that's the only one i've ever done is with him yeah he used to like to talk about that so well i just had to talk to him and you know he was in upstate new york at the time and it was just he really didn't have any plans to come down here and um i just i was very fortunate to one day

00:55get him in studio though yeah yeah nice so it's been wonderful well his work um that dvd series he did magical egypt was amazing yeah and i had seen your work before that in that mysteries of the sphinx thing that was narrated by charlton county nbc 1993. i think in many ways it was the mystery of the sphinx that really broke everything open it brought everything to the public attention i've had many people tell me i'm not trying to brag or anything i'm just saying factually that this really opened up a new field if we could put it that way a new um you know way of looking at things in the popular among the popular um public yeah the popular media the but people around the world versus the academic scholarly journals and the back and forth that type of thing you have to remember i'm a faculty member i'm at boston university in my academic and many of the academics have poo pooch

01:56should we say over the years bringing things to the public but i think it's been important to do now what we're talking about for the people that are uninformed is the idea that some of the structures in ancient egypt are far older than conventional wisdom or conventional modern day archaeology modern day egyptologists they would like us to believe that all of this spawned from a very specific time period and people like john anthony west and yourself and some other folks like graham hancock are proposing that it's entirely possible that there were many different eras of construction in egypt and that there are some structures that are far far older than we think yeah exactly and this what i was alluding to is this really opened up with our work on re-dating the great sphinx yes and i think you know the story but maybe just to summarize in the smallest of nutshells john anthony west

02:51before i met him he was became a follower should we say i shouldn't say follower because that sounds wrong that sounds like it's a religion dogma but he became interested in the work of the late schwaller de lubich who died passed away in 1961 but he had mentioned in one line that the sphinx had been weathered by rain i would say precipitation as a geologist not wind and sand so this if it were true and it is true would put the sphinx back to a much earlier period which would tie in with schwaller's work and john anthony west's subsequent work that there were indications that dynastic egypt as we know it going back to about 3000 bc was really a legacy of what i call now an earlier cycle of civilization uh something that goes back much much earlier which at this point i date back to the end of the last ice age ice age ended 9 700 bc just to put in perspective for people

03:52so when when did you first get on board with this john anthony west come to you or john anthony west okay so the story goes this way john anthony west published serpent in the sky his probably most famous book first edition 1979. he was then looking for someone that could really validate or at least assess from a scientific point of view this theory about the sphinx which he had just barely sort of touched the surface based on schwaller that maybe it could be older but this was really a geological question he mentions that in 1979 in serpent in the sky john anthony west went on to become very involved with egypt and he started traveling to egypt he led tours to egypt he wrote the traveler's key to ancient egypt in 1985 also mentions in appendix i think it was just the quote older sphinx theory but really looking for someone to at least assess it scientifically he met a fellow at

04:57in um in egypt actually at the time robert eddy who is a phd english literature i believe something like that but he was teaching in cairo american university in cairo i believe then he came to boston university this is late 1980s i was and still do teach at boston university full time robert eddy and myself got to know each other robert eddy mentioned me as a geologist to john anthony west and that maybe this was someone who seems fairly knowledgeable fairly open-minded about things at the time did you have any thoughts on egypt or oh i i i my interest in egypt goes way back i was reading about ancient egypt when i was literally six seven eight years old i had a grandmother who had a wonderful library at the time and i would go through her library she had books from the british museum on ancient egypt going back to the turn of the century so i i was prepared in the sense i was open

06:03to such things but i didn't imagine getting involved in egypt in any way professionally did you have any thoughts about the dating of the sphinx or the pyramids or anything back then before you looked at yeah there were there were two things so there were two things going on in my head back then which maybe prepped me for this number one i knew the conventional story i knew that the sphinx goes back to 2500 bc according to the standard egyptologist in 1989 which is when i first i believe it was 1989 i first actually met west in person i had in my mind that the egyptologist must be correct because they've studied it they must know what they're doing i was coming from an academic point of view i um i'm not i'm just giving you know saying where i'm coming from right i had gone to yale university get my phd in geology and geophysics i was very well grounded in quote the status quo

07:01academic point of view so i thought when i would first went to egypt i would just prove west wrong i would just prove that the egyptologists knew what they were talking about but and this is important but i was also trained in many ways both as a graduate student and going back to my grandmother who i had great respect for and was also very should we say liberal and open-minded but critical you always have to follow the evidence wherever it goes and that's always been my rule of thumb that not everything is always the way people say it is even if they're quote authorities and something i already knew when i went to egypt for the first time was that some of the very old egyptologists in the late 19th early 20th century had actually suggested that just the way it looks the feel of the sphinx not based on hard evidence really that maybe it was older than the pyramids that maybe it goes back

07:58earlier so i felt that it wasn't all said and done and you know pat and sound that the egyptologists necessarily knew what they were talking about in modern times because some of the earlier egyptologists who they held in very high respects supposedly had said different things secondly and i hate to bring this up but i will because it's part of the background i my grandmother who i mentioned a second ago uh was a theosophist and the if you know anything about theosophy it also suggests that you know maybe there's things that go back earlier i don't know what is a theosophist a theosophist it's it's uh how do i explain it have you heard of blavatsky madame blavatsky no no okay i'm losing my headphones theosophy was founded in the late 19th century it questioned a lot of the materialistic values a lot of the dogma of science of the time of religion of the time

09:01it looked to the east in particular to other philosophies other world views so basically it was a way this is what it did for me at least and i'm not a theospist i don't want to say i'm a theosophist but reading theosophical works on top of everything else allowed me i think to expand my horizons and to see that maybe the dogma of the day is just that the dogma of the day that there are other possibilities and not that we accept something just because someone said it or it because it's old or because it's this religion or that religion or that's supposed to be ancient culture but no you keep everything open you look at the evidence and that's really where i was coming from but my point is that even in the late 1980s early 1990s when i first got involved with this if i looked at it critically the evidence was not that definitive for the age of the sphinx so i was going in with open-minded

10:04possibilities but honestly when i first went to egypt with john anthony west in 1990 i thought before i got off the plane that this would be simple open and shut case i would prove him wrong in the sense of his assertions that maybe the sphinx was older i had no doubt at the time that my colleagues in egyptology must know what they're talking about and all of that changed literally within 30 without exaggerating 30 to 120 seconds of first scene yeah it really did what was your first impression because my first impression of the sphinx was now that i saw it on the ground in person there was something wrong with the egyptological dating because when you look at the sphinx as a geologist with a geological eye this was not weathered by wind and sand this was not desert erosion and weathering that i saw on the sinks the body of the sphinx which is very difficult to tell because it's been

11:08heavily repaired and reworked but particularly on the walls of what are known as the sphinx enclosure the sphinx enclosure is important because it preserves a lot of the details and if you haven't if the audience has not been to egypt they should realize that when they carve the sphinx it's all solid bedrock only the head initially was above the ground surface you carved they carved down into the rock to free up the body what i call the core body of the sphinx and it's that core body and the walls of the enclosure more or less the quarry around it if you want to use that term that show these ancient weathering precipitation erosional features that are incompatible with the last five thousand years of climatic history on the eastern edge of the sahara so immediately i knew there was something wrong geologically had to figure that out either this was a weird geological anomaly

12:10or something else was going on and the sphinx might go back to earlier period also i want to point out that when you look at the sphinx and other geologists have looked at this as well they did not just chip away at the rock to carve the body more or less you could have chipped away at the rock with pickaxes and that type of thing shoveled out chips of rock in baskets that would have been the easy way what they did is they carved out huge blocks of stone and when i say huge we're talking multi-ton tens of tons some of them may be over 50 tons or more of limestone they move those due east of the sphinx and built what is now known as the sphinx temple which is still there in ruinous condition and the valley temple so you had these two huge temples and what is interesting a lot of people don't realize this or they don't think about i think those constructions which are contemporary with the

13:10oldest portion of the sphinx in some ways are more impressive if you think about the technology and what went into constructing them than the age of the sphinx itself so it's not just the sphinx it's also these limestone temples that are associated with it and were built contemporaneously so jamie pulled up two photos here the first one that he pulled up was a computer image that showed the sphinx and showed oh hey i'm looking at it now yes and and in this image what you can see that's a computer image that's actually from mystery of the sphinx and then there's a inset that's an aerial photograph the real thing and that shows how when they were carving the body they cut out huge blocks and then put them in position to make what's known as the sphinx temple do east of the sphincter and the second image is the sphinx temple okay you look at this it says the sphinx faces due east

14:04the rising sun and right in front of it is the sphinx temple so this is a humongous temple made out of these huge blocks of stone which were carved out when they carved the body of the sphinx and here you see in this image another uh picture of the sphinx temple and so these erosions and you can see how big they are you can see how big they are they're enormous okay these erosion features on the blocks don't worry about them for the moment okay let's go back to the sphinx enclosure itself it's a sphinx enclosure where you see the rolling undulating profile the erosional features here you see it in that picture the vertical fissures and i know you're familiar with this personally because i've heard you talk about it with john anthony west that can only be caused by precipitation the rocks are like a layer cake so it takes out the softer layers it recedes the softer layer some of the

15:02harder layers stick out further but the water also finds its way down crevices and cracks natural features that are slightly um softer and it forms these vertical fissures i want to make the point because a lot of people get confused they say couldn't it be rising nile floods no geologically that would give a very different signature on the rockets not floods coming up from the bottom it's actually precipitation and rainfall runoff coming from above and rainfall for thousands of years well there's two aspects here it could be thousands of years it could be much stronger rainfall you know huge flash floods that type of thing and part of the story that i hope will get to is that initially i'm jumping around here a little bit um but initially i was thinking five to seven thousand bc that was very conservative based on the geological data based on the seismic which we have to get to also

16:06but now i believe we're talking prior to 9700 bc for the original construction of the sphinx and we can talk about why the dating and at 9700 bc we have the end of the younger driest the end of the glacial epic the end of the last ice age i have now put together the story based on evidence and when i ever s i say if i say i believe something or i think something it's always based on evidence that i've been piecing together that what we had ending the younger driest ending the last ice age was a huge eruption from the sun a huge solar outburst huge climatic changes which put among other things a lot of precipitation a lot of moisture into the air which came down as precipitation with huge floods huge essentially thunderstorms etc and i think a lot of the initial erosion that we still see on the walls of the sphinx enclosure go back to that period so you had the situation where you would

17:11get this incredible weathering and erosion and then it continued for thousands of years after that and was reinforced until you had the sahara coming in in relatively recent times in geologically holistic times this desert the sahara desert so before that it was some sort of a rainforest uh it's savanna to rainforest it actually varied over time and before that it was very fertile savannah lots of plants there people have seen it even in popular movies and whatnot how the sahara at one point had water and all kinds of animals that's before the end of the last ice age before this these incredible changes that we have at 9700 bc so that's where um the sphinx i think the original sphinx goes back to that time period and that's what the egyptians called zeptepe this was a first time for them or what i call an earlier cycle of civilization the last cycle the one that we're still part of

18:14in my terminology is the last five thousand years so civilization arising re-emerging i should say about 3000 to 4000 bc coming into really what we have now is you know high technology et cetera but before that there had been earlier cycles civilization that was essentially snuffed out or brought to its knees if you would by the end of the last ice age and just to map this out a period from about 9 700 bc this is what i'm reconstructing now to about 4 000 to 3000 bc where we have civilization re-emerging between that period so thousands of years 9 700 bc to say 3 700 bc for real numbers 6 000 years we have essentially a dark period and what i've been now calling siddha solar induced dark age sort of ironic the sun would induce a dark age because it brought civilization back to an earlier stage if you would i'm not sure i followed that how did the sun do this

19:21um solar outburst essentially coronal mass ejection huge eruption bigger than anything we've ever seen and so that's what caused these massive thundershowers and exactly nothing in modern history nothing in modern histories even close to this but we do have isotope data et cetera that indicates this has happened in the past at the end of the last ice age and i'm sure it's happened many times over and you have a lot of markers that indicate this you have vitrification of rock in fact a lot of the markers and i don't want to be debating the issue necessarily but a lot of the markers that people have used for a comet at the younger dryas or during the younger dries really most of them are at the beginning of the younger driest that's what they're claiming but a lot of the a lot of the dating is very very iffy um i i found it interesting for instance someone will use something as a marker

20:18for the younger drys and that will give a date of twelve thousand plus or minus four thousand years so you know this is just the way geology is but i remember i can't remember his name you had a guest on one of your shows uh he was when um randall carlson not randall carson uh i know randall very well uh he was on with carlson and schermer and i had but he came on by skype malcolm malcolm i do not remember okay but anyway he was one of the people that was quote comet proponent and he started pointing out a lot of the evidence uh microspherules um glassy spheres nano diamonds i mean i don't think he mentioned by all men saying shocked quartz etc and everyone has been assuming this has to be from a physical impact in the sense of something coming down like a comet or asteroid that type of thing but the problem is you don't necessarily find craters you don't

21:20necessarily find the pieces of the comet you should find some physical remains and he mentioned and i found it very interesting he mentioned in passing what i've been working on now for a number of years that no and i was once on the comet bandwagon i'll put it that way and i'm not trying to knock good research but when you look at the evidence what is not being considered by a lot of people and he mentioned this is in passing he said well you know something else that could cause is lightning but you wouldn't have lightning you know that's very localized we think this is very localized right um but if you have a major solar outburst manager coronal mass ejections and uh astrophysicist who's now deceased he was at cornell thomas gold who did a lot of really good in fact prize-winning work in astrophysics first pointed out in the 1960s that if you have a

22:16major solar outburst major coronal mass ejection you would get essentially huge what would be like huge lightning strikes over incredible areas of the earth simultaneously this would cause vitrification it would cause all these features and just as within the last year there's been more work done showing that vulgar rights where lightning strikes in modern times even small lightning strikes like that can cause can create things like shocked quartz other quote impact features that people have always said well it must be a comet or an asteroid but you're not finding the craters you're not finding other things so what i'm finding or my own research is i'm coming to conclude that it wasn't a physical object that hit us it was a solar outburst that's the general term i used is it possible that it was both um actually there's it's quite possible that it could have been both yeah there

23:20could have been fragments of both i i can address that um and there's a couple of aspects to both when you say both there's indications that comets diving into the sun actually cause coronal mass ejections to correlate it with disturbing the sun so in some cases you'll have the i'll call it the comet group talking about how we go through these comet streams periodically i agree 100 in fact i talk about this in some of my early books because i really was into comets at the time voyages of the pyramid builders for instance i talked about how comets might have begun and ended the younger driest but i wasn't thinking about solar activity at that time seriously as no one else was but we now find that comets diving into the sun when we go through comet streams that can set off solar activity so in fact i think it could be both but it could be that the comets are affecting the sun which is then

24:17affecting the earth rather than directly if that makes sense yes and the other thing is that people have to understand there's a couple of things going on the younger driest 10 900 bc when it first begins as a cooling period it's not as dramatic a climate change as you have at 9700 bc when all of a sudden we go from deep ice age climatic regime to modern or even a little bit warmer initially modern changes and this is it oh there yeah there we have some isotope data and what we have at 9700 bc and this is based on sediment cores and ice cores we also have lunar data that supports us at 9 700 bc we have incredible climatic change going from you know deep ice age to modern warming and this literally now based on what they call microstratigraphy from greenland ice cores can be dated within get this weeks to days wow so this happened literally we're talking virtually overnight when i was a

25:24graduate student we thought things said happened suddenly we were talking thousands of years or decades oh god you know take us decades for something to happen geologically that'd be crazy right now we're talking literally weeks to days that's incredible yeah so i think this ties in art supports that there was a massive solar event in 9700 bc uh what we had uh just a slide a minute ago when i saw it out the side of my eye was a graph of based on isotope data's what they call proxies of solar activity again based on primarily ice core sediment course and the sun was incredibly active in 9700 bc and shortly after there and it had huge if you think of it anthropomorphically mood swings would be very active then would go very still then very active again very still and this happened for some thousands of years and then it evened out um the sunserv became quiescent

26:27it was during this quiescence period that time back into human civilization civilization was able to re-emerge redevelop again and we've had incredibly good conditions should we say for the last five thousand years quiet conditions stable conditions on earth for civilization to re-emerge back into that theme but recently the sun has become very active again and we have to be very careful i'm not a doomsayer or a scare monger i'm not trying to sell people on being preppers but the reality is the sun has started to become active again just as it was at the end of the last ice age and i think this makes perfect sense because the sun is a star it goes through cycles like other stars do and we're a little planet orbiting it and we're like all the other planets affected by it it's fascinating though that we have this incredible need to keep things exactly the way they are to the point where

27:27we were in denial about any potential change even if you're studying things everybody's like oh it'll be fine we're so inclined we're so inclined to do that it's very aristotelian and in fact um i forget who it was one of the astrophysicists some decades ago said about the sun it was sort of the last vestige of aristotelianism in modern science everyone assumed the sun is stable essentially perfect yes it goes through little sun cycles of 11 and 22 years and maybe some bigger ones of a few centuries but no one wanted to think of it as what it is just a plain old star that goes through periods of the equilibrium we've been in relative solar equilibrium for thousands of years now but it goes through disequilibrium and has we'll call it hiccups and spurts and has to recalibrate itself if you would uh and we feel the effects on earth and so at the end of the last ice age

28:27we had this massive solar event solar outburst what they call um solar proton events it would have messed up the ionosphere caused all kinds of geomagnetic storms this ties in with earthquake activity that we see at the end of the last ice age because we now have lots of evidence that solar activity upsets the magnetosphere and the magnetic magnetic fields on the earth the um electrical currents in the earth it's i will trigger earthquakes that are about to happen anyway not unlike i was talking to um katie my wife on the right here and a good analogy is when you have an avalanche that's just about ready to go you can clap your hands in some cases and it sets off this huge avalanche really yeah so solar activity is tied in with earth activity earthquake activity for instance volcanic activity so we see volcanic activity increased volcanic activity there was a major

29:32super volcano that went off just at the end of the last ice age well why probably this is me speaking because of the solar activity that set it off so when you start getting things like platinum and iridium and osmium spikes that's not necessarily extraterrestrial that could be from terrestrial volcanic activity that was occurring at that period so yes there's extraterrestrial causes but i think that there's a very strong case to be made that this is solar that this is the sun influencing us which is really important too fast forward to today here we are we're on skype we're using all these electronic media what could be more vulnerable to a solar outburst that kind of stuff yeah oh power grid power grids power grids will be fright there was a and i think we're seeing the beginning of this or we saw the beginning of this because again i'm a geologist so i think in

30:34broad terms a few hundred years is nothing 1859 are you aware of the carrington event no there was a major solar outburst from a human perspective major solar outburst from an astrophysical perspective it was nothing but it was a coronal mass ejection actually two in a row that hit us in 1859 it's known as a carrington event after richard carrington who first saw the solar flares of really bright solar flares that were associated with it it was picked up on the primitive magnetometers of the time that they had for instance in london etc study by the physicists of the time and 1859 there were electronics around it was called the telegraph system the telegraph system acted as huge antenna that picked up the changing magnetic fields generated electricity along it burnt out the telegraph lines literally set telegraph you know the places where the telegraph operators worked

31:42on fire telegraph stations on fire that type of thing um if we had a carrington level event now which is really quite minor from a astrophysical perspective orders of magnitude less than what happened at the end of the last ice age it would fry our grid lines it would knock out all the huge transformers it would before it did that because as it's coming it probably knock out all the satellites uh the gps systems communications i mean it would really bring us to our knees is this an article yeah from 1859 yeah yeah the auroral display in boston is another display of a royal yeah so there you go brilliant one o'clock ordinary print can be read by the light exactly because one thing you get is these bright auroras these bright what people think of as the northern southern lights but in 1859 they saw them around the world back at the end of the last ice age because they were so powerful

32:46when they become more intense they take on very discreet structures in the sky here's some uh what are known as again northern lights right rural displays but see how it starts to take on a discrete structure on the right there and to describe it to the audience do you see how it sort of looks like a person with their hands up in the air they start to take on more and more discrete structures some of them look like people with their hands up in there and little legs and so what exactly is this phenomenon um this is basically the high charged particles electrons and protons and what not interacting with the atmosphere um and they form these figures it's electrical phenomenon and they will ultimately come down if you have a tense enough one as you did the end of last ice age it will look like if you were there living you know twelve thousand years ago ten thousand eleven thousand

33:43seven hundred years ago at the end of the last ice age and you saw this you would see these things in the sky oh they look like gods they look like stick figure humans in the sky uh you would see huge lightning bolts hitting parts of the surface of the image it's fascinating because that image on that's in hieroglyphics exactly you find this around the world and anthony perrott who's explain what we're looking at before the people that are because a lot of people just listen okay what we're looking at plasma discharge formation yeah this is plasma discharge formation plasma is essentially think of is electrically charged particles electrons protons that type of thing as it comes off the sun in this case think of a coronal mass ejection a huge ball of charged gas that's one way to describe it hitting the atmosphere driving down into the atmosphere causing these like northern lights on

34:40steroids if you want to put that the images that we're seeing takes on very specific images that look like stick figures so these are things you would see in the sky except there in many cases they're spinning electrically you wouldn't notice that they were spinning go back generally and they look sort of like because we tend to anthropomorphize we tend to look at like even clouds or rocks formations and we make them look like what we think they look like so they look sort of like stick figure men and is any is any of this an actual photograph are these just graphic illusions these are graphic illustrations but what we can show no because we haven't experienced this fortunately and since photography but what we do have are petroglyphs dating back to the end of last ice age where people were seeing this in the sky and they were drawing it on the walls of caves on the walls of

35:31rocks and globally globally anthony peratt who's a los alamos plasma physicist he is the world's expert on this type of high energy plasma physics these are some of the illusions go back go back jamie i'll look at this from all over the world look at this exactly amazing all over the world arizona italy it's all the same thing it's all the same thing and notice too that spain see how they look like stick figures but they have little weird dots on their side donuts real humans don't have that right but they're seeing this around the world in the sky and recording it also the motif of when these take on certain forms they take on what look like birds heads so the bird-headed man a motif that you see around the world going back and i believe it all goes back to the end of the last ice age and what people were experiencing what they were seeing if you want to call gods in the sky

36:27or whatever but they were seeing this and it was having a real effect on their life what is causing that very specific pattern that very specific shape that you're seeing the way the way i would say the best way to say it is you've got this this is simplistic but you've got these huge electrical charges coming down they sort of focus like a tornado focuses or if you think of running water out of a spigot if you play with it you can sort of squeeze it and make it form different shapes that's sort of my analogy to it um and it's the magnetic and electric fields interacting with each other sometimes they sort of spin around each other like a rope and then that you would illustration here you see uh how do you say his name dr pratt's experiments where he essentially reproduced that that shape over and over and over again that's right exactly reproduce that and then it gets even

37:21more fascinating and this is something that ties in actually with katie my wife catherine ulysses um and peratt team has confirmed it on easter island you have the rongarongo script which also duplicates this and seems to be a record you know the modern rongo rongo are only a few hundred years old but just like any manuscript or anything it was copied over and over and seems to go back to it too and if you look at some of the rongo rongo and i know a lot of your audience can't see this but you look at some of them they're even more definitive look you know showing what peratt was able to reproduce experimentally and there they have it recorded from ancient times so when you're talking about this event that happened at the end of the younger driest you what like put it in perspective like are we talking about like uh a hurricane times a thousand like what would this be like without

38:22understanding a million yeah like a huge understanding yeah i mean literally possible to comprehend impossible to comprehend from our point of view from our perspective yeah our perspective and there's more to it than that you would have incredible radiation levels at the surface of the earth paula violetta a physicist i know and he's published on this has talked about how during an event like this you have levels of radiation that were so high that large mammals we are large mammals large mammals if they couldn't protect themselves they could die within you know three to six seven days a week or so how do you protect yourself you go underground you go into caves you go into places because rock will protect you from the surface radiation under these circumstances now you don't need to stay there forever you can you know because these solar events probably came

39:17now this is hypothetical because we've not experienced a huge one like this but they probably came um and then it would back off a little bit but then maybe another one would come i again i'm a geologist so think of a huge earthquake and then aftershocks aftershocks that actually last centuries or millennia in some cases you know smaller ones so something that was happening and you see this around the world too is that where people survived i believe in part because they had access to natural caves initially then they built underground structures for when they came again and it also encouraged or developed this whole tradition should we say of having a place to go even if it's not occurring at the moment they knew that these things do occur at least for some thousands of years and we're aware of this so we're being prepared analogy i would use this during the cold war

40:14here what did a lot of people build in their backyards bunkers so they were doing this also so you get areas here uh i see there's a slight of india up at the moment cappadocia region is very well how did they know to get underground how do they know together i think initially i think initially i mean you've got literally fire coming down from the sky think of the lightning bolts fire right i mean if you've got a cave there you go into it it's the only thing that's going to protect yeah it protects your houses are useless oh yeah all that burns i mean you've got literally fire coming down think of this fire lightning yes that is going to set things on fire and you literally incinerate just lightning everywhere yeah almost like rainfall yes yes yes in certain areas and that's why you have huge sheets of glass in some cases wow so that's wow yeah and so you're incinerating everything

41:08where it hits ice it's flash vaporizing it it's hitting water it's vape so this is causing massive flooding so it's causing massive flooding it's dumping all the ice ultimately into the oceans which is causing rising sea levels but more importantly is causing massive precipitation massive flash floods and what kind of population loss are we talking about i think incredible i think incredible because for instance we had can document linguistically and this is other people's work but i think it ties right in they haven't been explained it coachingly otherwise that there is for instance in turkey middle east there is a constriction of the population to the anatolia region cappadocia where you have these underground shelters you have a geology that was easy to go into and escape and it linguistically we can map back uh indo-european languages to a small

42:06pocket that survived there at the end of the last ice age wow so you know i think there was a massive around the world you would have had populations being constricted and then they spread out again and when they were constricted there's i see the slide there for the linguistic data when you constrict down in one area of course you lose a lot of the technology you lose a lot of the high culture if you were right you know you go back to a much more primitive stage and that's what we find so we find for instance in anatolia of western turkey you know near asia as it was called in ancient times you find not only of course you know things like gobekli tepe which goes back before this huge catastrophe with the monumental stone megalist etc but what you find there two thousand years later in the same general area you find for instance chad huyak which is a bunch of mud brick

43:05houses all clustered together uh it's gone down it's gone into what i call katie and i call siddha this solar-induced dark age where they lost a lot of it not unlike an analogy i think it's easy for people understand analogies the end of the roman empire and everything that was lost there and then going into a much more primitive state um with the dark ages the european dark ages in this case you look at the technology it was much higher during the roman empire until maybe one thousand or twelve hundred a d again in many realms same thing here although this was such a mighty throwback it took thousands of years for people to re-emerge and at least start to get up to the status now they have been before presented this in front of other scholars and people well there's a lot of resistance look i'm an academic i i don't want to sound the wrong way i'm not looking for sympathy

44:13but going out on limbs like this going just right beginning with the re-dating of the sphinx and that's what we we didn't even finish with that yet right but that's okay we'll get back to that plenty of time yeah um there's a lot of resistance to anything that's new any concepts new ideas textbooks have been books have been written people have stayed given out yeah yeah uh they've staked their reputation on it and i understand that and i try not to be that myself you know oh this is my pet theory but i do try and look at the evidence i think that slowly we're building up more and more interest more and more um at least people looking at it objectively and uh i do see changes occurring uh one thing i'll mention right now is as of relatively recently not still very very small but at boston university i've been allowed to found what is called the isoc the

45:18institute for the study of the origins of civilization wow which is really just me at the moment but i want to build it up and i'd like to get i'm not trying to sound the wrong way but i'd like to get people to donate to it etc etc um also i've found it with some colleagues of mine including some academic colleagues oracle which stands for the organization for the research of ancient cultures so we're bringing it into the mainstream both as a private not-for-profit foundation as a institute through boston university to really be looking at these things in a when i say professional way what i mean by that is you know evidence evidence-based way but also looking outside the standard dogmas the standard boxes standard paradigms and the standard vested interest because so much science you know people say to me all the time they think science is supposed to be objective well maybe it

46:15is supposed to be objective but who are the scientists doing it they have all their subjective biases and notions and vested interests and i'm not trying to knock anyone but but it's a fact it is it's just a human fact yeah it's where we're all humans and one of the things that happened in that documentary from 1993 that i was kind of stunned by was the reaction uh by the conventional egyptologists when you brought up this evidence where he was very dismissive almost mockingly in this weird sort of a way where he was like what what what culture where is this called where's the evidence of this culture absolutely and it's kind of gross it is it is because that really should not have any place in his right he was mocking and and being called i mean i've been called a pseudo scientist yes um look i i again i don't want to sound the wrong way but i think i'm as well

47:07as well credentialed as anyone yes i mean among my academic colleagues uh you know well that's why i appreciate you that you have stuck your neck out for so long doing this research but since that time have i been punished yes yeah i'm sure yeah i mean you know let's let's no i'll be honest you know i haven't gotten necessarily the i i've had colleagues say to me in no uncertain terms very well meaning that i could have had a wonderful career and had all the promotions and advancements going up through the academic you know ladder if you would with no problems if i just stuck to my you know some little specialty that no one really cared about hmm you know i'm but you've had an impact a gigantic impact on people like me that are really fascinated by if if i had continued to work on for instance one of my specialties as a graduate student was palestinian seeing mammal

48:05evolution would i be talking to you about that now maybe if it's maybe if it was interesting but less likely right less likely from seeing your skeletons and whatnot in skulls i might be you might be yeah now when you were doing that you were talking to that guy one of the things that he was saying in this dismissive way is where is the evidence of this culture well now we have go beckley texas oh absolutely that is the evidence because that that was an american association for advancement of science debate on the sphinx which turned out i thought i was going in for a real debate i thought it was going to be a great debate we were really going to discuss the evidence back and forth i brought all my data the seismic data which is very very important which we haven't even touched on yet other types of data we haven't touched on because i want to make the point is

48:56much more than a little bit of weathering on the sphinx and i've heard so many critics even to my face they say well you don't re-date civilization based on a weathering profile no i've got lots more than weathering profile the weathering profile and erosion is the easiest thing to explain and yes it's what i saw initially in that first 30 to 120 seconds because that's before i brought in equipment and worked with tom de becky to do seismic work to do other types of more detailed analysis i would not be talking to you today if it was just erosional profile i for my own self i wouldn't put enough stock in that that but when it ties in with everything else we have a coaching picture um but getting back to someone being dismissive like that that was 1992 quebec le tepe had technically been discovered back in the 1960s but they misdated it completely they thought was maybe a thousand or two

49:55thousand years old byzantine or roman greco-roman period not end of the last ice age not you know 12 000 years old and how did they make the distinction that it was 12 000 years old is based on the soil samples that was that was klaus schmidt klaus schmidt went back to it in about 1994-95 so a couple of years after that dismissive comment from the egyptologist mark laner who i think is the specific person you're referring to at the american association for the advancement of science debate which i just went to make the comment i went into that thinking that was going to be a debate i came out of it realizing that they were just trying to set me up to put me down and shut me up forever which they were not successful in doing why do you think that they're so reluctant to just listen to the evidence and look at the information and and consider the possibility that maybe

50:50there had been an ancient civilization because it upsets the standard timeline the standard standard story and it also upsets a lot of people's concept of progression and uh this is something john anthony west like to talk about the whole he called it the church of progress that we've gotten better and better and better and i talk to so many people that think that we are the end all and be all we're the best that there ever has been well maybe we are in terms of certain types of technology and i'm not making any claim that people in the past could ever do what we're doing now doing a podcast with all the electronics but as i pointed out that also makes us really vulnerable right to things but i would argue that there is a not so remote possibility that they knew things that we don't know that they may have understood things that we don't understand they may have had a

51:44worldview that would benefit us to at least have a feel for it um i mean i don't want to go off on spiritual tangents i could if i wanted to or philosophical tangent but i also have a training as an anthropologist anthropologist i have an undergraduate degree in anthropology on top of everything else and i'm fascinated by human approaches to life and the environment and their situation and i'm convinced that we do have things to learn from the ancients whether it's the really remote ancients or the more recent ancients from only 5 000 years ago even dynastic egypt and that it's not all simply a one-way progress that there are fits and starts that there have been high points and low points and high points again and i'm not frankly convinced that we're at the highest point when it comes to certain aspects we might be a high point with certain types of technology but i'm not convinced that

52:46we're at a high point when it comes to um stone construction oh certainly not with stone construction so there are types of technology we are not a high point with right much let's get into this philosophical or spiritual or whatever you want to call it and we don't think of it as technology because we think of technology as being something that's electronic that's right that's right and there are other technologies and if you ask me how did they build the pyramids i will tell you i don't know if you ask me how they constructed the sphinx temple they carved out those huge blocks of stone that can weigh 50 or more tons and move them in such tight spaces with such tight tolerances i don't know i mean no one really knows no one really knows and sometimes people say you know you bring in thousands of slaves or whatnot well there's no evidence for that and where

53:36would you have them stand when you're building the sphinx temple right you know there's not enough room to and there's around stones are so big even thousands of slaves struggle to move them it's not like something like that yeah just get a couple buddies we're gonna move this couch yeah yeah we're not talking about that no no no and yeah you can try to hypothesize levers and that type of thing but it's this has been said before and i've seen um i wasn't there in person but i've seen off the record document you know footage of it when they've tried to just construct a little pyramid with very small blocks and then they um end up using modern machines and they still weren't very successful i mean so they knew a lot they knew a lot so there's a real resistance i find among a lot of my academic colleagues to want to even suggest that people could have known things in the past that

54:27we don't know now or if they knew something in the past that we don't know now it was so trivial that it was worth forgetting worth not worrying about uh so there's this that concept i find amazing and i hate to be stereotypic some broad brushing but many egyptologists when i read their works or i listen to them at conferences etc and i get the impression that they might love egyptology and studying the ancient egyptians but they also have this view that oh these guys made wonderful temples and had some fantastic art but really you know they're sort of primitive and hahaha isn't that silly and do you see what i mean it's like the very thing vacation yeah the very thing they study they put down yeah in a sense to build themselves up and to build up this idea of ultimate progress yeah exactly exactly exactly then you also have in egyptology and i want to give you another example

55:29of this not just me bringing in scientific evidence and data in the egyptologists rejecting it but just recently in the last couple of years have you heard about the project on the great pyramid the big void they've been using moography which is a highly sophisticated technique using muons that come from outer space or come from the atmosphere they go through the pyramid you can set up detectors long term and pick these up they're sort of like x think of x-rays technology but using muons which are sort of exotic particle that most people are not aware of because they just pass right through us without interacting but when you've got massive stone massive stone will block some of them so you can pick up essentially an image over a long period of time so this is really high-tech physics very expensive a consortium of physicists did work on the great pyramid i think it's still ongoing

56:29but they put up you know tens of millions if not more worth of a high you know sophisticated physical physics equipment gathered all this data i've seen the raw data i have a degree in geophysics geology and geophysics i have some ability to evaluate this type of data whereas i hate to say a lot of the egyptologists don't and i found that with my own data when i shared my own data that not to be nasty but they didn't know what they were looking at right which is somewhat understandable since it's not their training right so you have with the great pyramid just recently in the last couple of years published in nature a very prestigious journal they found what they believe is evidence for a huge void above the grand gallery that has never been known before and yeah there we have a picture of it the egyptologists have been so resistant to this saying this is nonsense there can't be we don't

57:31basically we there can't be anything new that we don't know about or if it is it's just trivial it's just some um space between the rocks is nothing important but what i wanted to say what's really important some egyptologists have actually called for the whole project to be closed down because they don't like the results and they called it quote propaganda closed down but you're more let's cut this close down the whole scientific project they don't not only do they not want to look at the data they don't want more data collected that might contradict their standard point that's fascinating that someone would actually call for that because this isn't even their study of their field of study right so you're dealing with physical evidence yeah that they're saying is nonsense but this is not something they study in the first place right so this is this void that we're

58:20looking at here in these images yeah can you explain to people that are just listening what we're seeing oh what you're seeing is what they call the hidden chamber there but you can see how it's parallel to the grand gallery the grand gallery is this huge gallery that goes up to the king's chamber in the great pyramid and that's deep in the pyramid hidden chamber is above this above it parallels it is maybe close to the same size of it it's hard to tell with until it gets probed you know you'd have to drill into it and maybe put a camera in but i've seen the raw data my point is i've seen the raw data i certainly think it's important they're interpreting it correctly now the proof will be in the pudding as they say if they ever entered or at least put a probe into it but my point right now is to just dismiss the data as nonsense to call for the whole project to be shut down

59:13is nonsense who's calling for the project to be shut down some of the egyptian egyptian egyptologists close to the ministry and my point is they've done the same thing to me so for instance when we did seismic work and we found the chamber under the left part of the sphinx that's never been explored since at least not to my knowledge and they just dismiss and say we know there's nothing there and that was despite the fact that we also found a chamber at the rump of the sphinx which i didn't know about the time but they already knew about so it confirmed that our data was good because we were finding something they knew about but when we find something they don't know about and they don't want to be there right they dismiss it and don't want to pursue it they have explored one of those chambers correct is that they explore the one that's in the rump

60:00the one in the rump yes the one the rump but it turns out they already knew about it it's probably not super significant it probably is just maybe a greco-roman or late period you know burial or or some kind of excavation the one i believe is important is under the left paw of the sphinx which i believe is uh archive actually may go back to this very early period because we now have hieroglyphic evidence indicating that what is the evidence indicates it's an archive okay so recently and this gets back to um the sphinx yes okay so we started this portion of the discussion with the sphinx and my initial observations of the sphinx and one of my observations was that there's something going on with the weathering ero and erosion on the sphinx the second observation this is within the first two minutes at most was that the head is too small for the body the head is not eroded the way the core

61:01body is it's not erode the way the walls of the sphinx enclosure are it's not the original head i hate to say it this way but i knew immediately that was not the original head you know just from a geological point of view right and i believe that's now since been fully confirmed that this is not the original head it was a re-carved head so for a long time the question has been in my mind and we talk about this even on mystery of the sphinx what was the original head of the sphinx what was the sphinx originally we've speculated and other people speculate might have been a lion for instance leo because it faces on the equinox the constellation leo in the sky not today but 10 000 bc or so more or less at the very end of the last ice age now i've had a lot of colleagues of mine academic colleagues say that's nonsense you know it doesn't mean anything because they weren't even recognizing

62:01the consolations back then um we now have plenty of evidence that at least some of the constellations that we recognize today uh leo i would put in that category uh taurus is in that category orion is in that court category some of them we don't have evidence for but the ones i just mentioned the um these are constellations that go back well into the end of the last ice age we have documents of that we have mammoth bones where you have orion carved on it we have taurus shown in cave walls we have leo shown so it's to me it's fascinating that some of these constellations that we recognize today were recognized tens of thousands of years ago so to me it's not nonsense that they carved a structure 10 000 bc approximately that was facing its own image in the sky so one suggestion was that maybe it's leo but recently um monu manuscripts today dr manu savesade

63:03another colleague of mine he recognized initially that there is a title what's known as a dual title in dynastic egypt that goes back to the fourth dynasty and even back to the first dynasty with the earliest writing and it when properly translated basically refers to the sphinx as the guardian of an archive and not the sphinx as we think of it as a lion with a human head but as a lioness and there was a name for this lioness mehet she was the goddess mehet who guarded a archive um and we wrote a paper on that when i say we manu save today myself and robert duvall who you may know up from orion correlation and some of his his work ties in with this the archaeoastronomy but we've now found that there is this sign which we named the jaw sign in honor of that's awesome in honor of john anthony west uh there it is there's the jw sign and what you see here is a lioness met hit

64:14which was the sphinx originally based on our reconstruction and interpretation and can't go into all the details now you can actually people can read the paper if i could put a plug in if people go to my website www dot robert shock and that's r o b e r t r o b e r t s c h o c h the main thing is my name is bill schoch so www.robertshock.com they can go i did a popular summary of the paper and they can also go and download the original paper in the peer-reviewed journal archaeological discovery where we argue that what we have here is the lioness met hit she has what looks like a bent rod coming out of her back when people look at the actual image and then above it is uh ax so it's an axe yeah it's it's a a primitive axe um when i say primitive even for the ancient egyptians in dynastic egypt it would have been sort of a symbolic axe if you would which was a sign of someone

65:23who was in charge of things overseer that type of thing the bent rod what is that that's a primitive key we would now call it a primitive key but it represents a key and so it's basically saying that this is the guardian of the archives of method the locked chamber or vault of method and we also have images i see it up on the board now if you look at you've got the lioness with the key and you also have a line is not in that image but a different image that we had before if you look at that can you see how there's a line is sort of a diagrammatic shape over what looks like a facade okay if you then go to the stella that sits between the paws of the sphinx you have the same image much more artistically rendered of the sphinx sitting over a facade over what looks like a building it's not really a building it's the archive underneath i believe there's something underneath i know

66:33there's something underneath because long ago in the early 1990s thomas de becky and i when we did seismic work around the sphinx we found the chamber under the paws of the sphinx and it's i'm sure an artificial chamber it's very regular and this i believe could well be i'm hypothesizing and in science we make hypothesis that are testable this is perfectly testable all we have to do is enter that chamber even if it's just to put a fiber optic down and we can see is it an artificial chamber that's an archive hopefully there's still things there or maybe it was gutted and cleaned out at some point but here we have the seismic work one of the um seismic maps i'll call it tomographic data and what's label is anomaly a under the left paw that is the chamber we found under the left paw that the egyptologists have wanted to deny ever since and they don't want to

67:36explore it and we haven't got them permission i don't think they want to explain what does this make any sense to me well i know but this is if there's physical evidence this is politics in egypt god it's so squirrely yeah yeah so now okay this is 1991 or so early 1990s as of last year 2017 we have textual evidence ancient hieroglyphs talking about this chamber talking about the sphinx talking about the sphinx being a lioness guarding a chamber and i want to point out that the earliest hieroglyphs that we have that refer to this are about 33 3100 bc which is hundreds of years before the egyptologist claimed the sphinx was even thought about being carved which is somewhere around 2500 bc 2500 bc so that coincides with the construction the great pyramid of giza okay well that's another question oh so we'll come back to that because i don't buy the it's more can we come back yes

68:36yeah so the egyptologists claimed that the sphinx was first carved 2500 bc right yet there's no mention of the carving of the sphinx then they cite the inventor not the inventory stella that's another style they cite the topmost is the fourth dream stella which is a thousand plus years later which had at one point a partial cartoof of kafra partial cartouche of kaphra which has since flaked away it was there reputedly in the 19th century there were drawings of it um which we to put in our plug-in just if people are interested in getting more information robert baval and i wrote a book last year published last year called origins of the sphinx where we discuss a lot of this but mehit is a more recent discovery so there was a partial cartouche of kafra which egyptologists said aha this proves that kaphra carved the sphinx because the sphinx it's due east of crawford's pyramid

69:36kaffir was the pharaoh in 2500 bc therefore the sphinx must be 2500 bc i contend and robert buvall and other people who are in our line of thinking contend that this stella that's over a thousand years thousands sorry over a thousand years later does not say that it carved he carved the sphinx but that he restored the sphinx just like tutmosis iv who was putting up the stella was restoring the sphinx and when you look at the sphinx it has been restored numerous times including blocks of limestone that were put onto it to restore some of the very ancient weathering that when i asked sai hawas one of my biggest critics how old those blocks are he said they were fourth dynasty now why would you restore it in the fourth dynasty when it had just been built you know literally a century or two ago you don't need to restore a meter worth of weathering his his answer and i'm not trying to

70:41make fun of him is that it's rotten rock that it wasn't very high quality rocks was how somehow it just crumbled away you know a meter or so i saw him in a couple of hundred years graham hancock yeah but that's another issue i don't want to get into that because uh let me just say it this way there there's there was not just science going on there there was politics going on right so you know there's a lot going on there's a lot going on exactly exactly i've seen it too and i've known all these people for it's very frustrating decades yeah so i'm trying to keep just to the side right now right right um but so he himself admits that some of these repairs go back well over 4 000 years which makes no sense if it's always 4 500 years old exactly exactly and they've always contended there was no inscriptions or anything really referring to the sphinx until new kingdom times we point out in

71:40origins of the sphinx robert baval and i that no you have to know what they were calling the sphinx and now with met it we have been scripture how did they find that when did they find this lioness and when did they you're saying this is very recent yeah the manu um manu saves a day my co-author just discovered that um i don't know exactly when he found the inscription uh but he first pointed out to uh robert bouvall myself about a year ago about a year ago and we all worked on it and confirmed it and put together the pieces i mean he really gets the most credit for it um he's he he he knows his hieroglyphics really where did they find this hieroglyphic of this oh and s the the um it's shown in several different uh uh ancient artifacts so for instance there's a statue of vizier from the fourth dynasty who may have actually overseen the construction of the great pyramid or i

72:43would say the reconstruction of the great pyramid because i want to get back to that i think the great pyramid just like the sphinx was being reconstructed refurbished if you would during the old kingdom not constructed de novo but he was overseeing that he must have had something to do with the sphinx um he was apparently the um given the title of being the um overseer for the sphinx that type of thing but it turns out this title was something he had in khufu's time which is the the pharaoh before supposedly when the sinks was built to begin with so that messes up the egyptological thinking right there um but this title was something that had been held by others before him back down to about 31 or so 100 bc you know 5 000 years ago again 500 or more years before the sphinx was supposedly built so now we have this hieroglyphic text that goes back refutes what the egyptologists are saying

73:50and not only that but when you look at the way they write it this is the earliest writing so it's not surprising we don't have anything earlier maybe eventually we'll find earlier you know the precursors but they're also in the context it seems abundantly evident they're referring to it as a very old structure itself wow now how do egyptologists receive this uh it's just making its way into the egyptological community and we will see how they receive so so far there's been no reaction um no no i'll just put it that way no well i know officially well you've seen it all before i've seen it all before and you know it's a classic thing too that in some cases so i'll put it relay to the sphinx and maybe hopefully somewhat analogous i pointed out decades ago and john anthony west and i working on this that the sphinx the head is not the original head and i'm not

74:54sure if i'm the very first one to ever say that i'm not going to cha cred but was quite obvious to me when i as i mentioned without anyone saying that to me i had not heard that someone else suggest that since then egyptologist with of course however citing me or john anthony west have also been suggesting that in some cases and some have suggested that maybe it was khufu's face on the sphinx rather than kafra's face after we brought in frank domingo who demonstrated that's not copper's face frank domingo if you remember from mystery of the sphinx was a new york city police officer forensic expert who literally would reconstruct faces compare faces that was his business and to present it in court he analyzed the face of the sphinx in the face of kafra also known as chefron the pharaoh the egyptologist before our time before we got involved in this always said these were the same faces

75:54the face of the sphinx the face of kafra uh frank domingo came out very definitively that they're not the same face and they're both competent artists they're not frankly the same ethnicity of faith and for mark laner to publish a national geographic that the i'll paraphrase some of the sphinx came alive when he reconstructed with the face of chef ron our face of kafra is just that's not science that that's um you know wish fulfillment or something right he wanted to be the face of uh certain pharaoh he does a computer reconstruction with it having the face of the pharaoh he wants it to be and then passes that off as somehow i guess science so there's no egyptology is not necessarily science either and i'm not saying that a nasty way but it's an important point because egyptology a lot of egyptologists classically come more from a art history background

76:58that type of thing so tying in with the question you asked before i literally it's funny how things work i literally when i was in graduate school took a seminar in sciences and other disciplines you know this was because i was being trained as a scientist and one of the papers we had to read at the time this was long before i ever thought about going to egypt was how egyptologists are resistant to scientific information and scientific data and how to help you know try to overcome that if you're working with egyptologists basically which the answer was it's very difficult and it's not to put them down because i have lots of colleagues in other fields that are not sciences right um but classically i would contend egyptology is not a science it comes more from art history or from linguistic studies you know translating hieroglyphs some historical studies and those are all

77:56very important academic studies but you do sometimes get people in a certain field and they're resistant to outsiders from another field especially when they think it's a field that's so far apart and so diverse from what they understand what they know their own mindset yeah and their mindset is not geared towards scientific data yeah and i'm not again i'm not trying to be nasty it's just you don't have to explain yourself yeah you're not coming across nasa yeah so when you initially saw these erosion features and and you the first 30 to 90 seconds or whatever you said it was 120 seconds when you first looked at it and knew did you have any idea that your life would take the turn that it's taken i mean did you have any indication you would be thrown into such a storm oh all these years later here we are in 2018 you're still fighting the good fight i know as john anthony west once said

78:55introducing me um he ruined he ruined my life 25 years later after that documentary you're still swinging i know i know i'm still getting attacked and i'm still you know um the answer is no i was naive i was incredibly naive at the time i still was not that far out of graduate school you thought you could just present yeah exactly that was it and i was so naive and so we first present the evidence at the geological society of america annual meeting in 1991 i guess it was yeah 1991 and i want to say bluntly the vast majority of geologists you know hundreds literally thought oh this is amazing this is great it may start making some headlines around the world literally there were one or two geologists there that turns out turns out we're working for egyptologists they didn't think this was so great because they saw the implications for the egyptological colleagues

80:04and they started you know a little rumbling there then the journalists come in back then you know no internet like we have it now just phones and the journalists start calling egyptologists that were not there had not seen the data etc immediately they were telling the journalists that this has to all be nonsense that hundreds of egyptologists have studied this for you know two or three centuries which is total nonsense it turns out i knew every egyptologist because there's so few that have actually studied the sphinx personally it's really just two martial so so yeah they were just trying to dismiss it and then the egyptologists come back and say we know this is nonsense essentially i'm paraphrasing we know that the pyramids were not built by aliens so they start bringing aliens and ufos essentially just to dismiss you dismiss me and i wasn't talking about total

80:57drama yeah i wasn't talking about um pyramids number one we could talk about that if you want to and i wasn't talking about aliens they hadn't been there they hadn't seen the data it was so bizarre in hindsight and i was so frustrated trying to defend their positions yeah and they were just they were really just attacking and then in egypt at one point they were um putting things in the arabic press little did they know i have enough friends that would read it to me and they were saying that i wasn't even a faculty member at boston university which is outright lie since i just been tenured so there was no doubt i was a faculty member there but this was other academics saying this but they never thought it would get back to me i mean really really mean and nasty um so getting back to the evidence so they set up and this was i think unprecedented within months they'd set up this

81:52debate at the aaas american association for the advancement of science and i thought again i was so naive i thought oh this is wonderful finally we'll get rid of all this nonsense in this name calling and you know the stuff in the popular press that you know journalists you can't blame them they don't know what's going on necessarily and we'll really get the evidence out and we'll be able to discuss it um sanely and objectively turns out that wasn't the case at all it was just from my perspective they were just calling me more names and trying to set up straw men and is this egyptologist who was in that documentary who dismissed everything yeah that was marxist he's still around oh yeah and has he amended his position at all not to my knowledge i haven't spoken with him for years and years and years right did you ever speak with him off the record or

82:44personally oh i feel yeah what is this yeah oh i i'll tell you this is what he didn't say was off the record i was i guess was off the record i don't think i would have said this years ago but i'll say it now at that debate at that debate triple a s debate he i just suddenly found him myself in the hall with him and there was no one else around so he could totally deny this but it's true my perspective at least he said something to me like you know you don't really believe this i know you don't really believe this you just want to be on television and you know be famous or something like that he said i said no i i really do believe it or you know i really go by the evidence and i do think the evidence says this and he sort of was telling me that no you don't you know he was like i don't know analyzing me advertising you yeah yeah yeah and then and then and then what he does

83:44is he starts asking me a question of some detailed question about the geology and well if that's the case how can such and such and i think it in hindsight might have been fed to him by some geo-archaeologists as they call someone who does archaeology but knows a little geology uh and i i realized in hindsight it was meant to be one of those got you questions i guess they say nowadays where i wouldn't be able to answer it but no i of course i thought about it it was to me as a geologist very obvious so i start giving him this detailed explanation as to why that's not the case and why you know my evidence stands up blah blah blah and we're standing there face to face i'm explaining this to him and i see his face sort of turn and it goes blank and i'm in mid-sentence he just turns around and walks away he doesn't realize he couldn't he couldn't refute what you were saying no

84:38he couldn't refute what i was saying and he wasn't really answer my takeaway is that he wasn't interested in discussing it rationally or and you know he just wanted to um win the debate or whatever and when he knew that he wasn't going to with you he just got out of there yeah yeah wow and again you know it was a just a personal thing there was no other witnesses to my knowledge of this but if he had really wanted to discuss things i was willing to discuss it with him it's so disturbing that someone would put their own ego so far above the information that needs to be distributed to scholars and people and students and all these folks out there that have questions about the history of the human race that someone would put their own reputation and ego above all of that and not have the the the mindset to realize well we have new evidence and what we thought of

85:34before we're going to have to apply to this new evidence and create a new timeline it doesn't dismiss all the things they learned in the past no no that's something in fact i'm glad you brought that up because i long contended that people talk about rewriting history etc well yes i understand that argument and i think we do need to rewrite good chunks of our very early history but i've never denied dynastic egypt in the basic chronology for dynastic egypt now what i say is that we've got a whole new chapter to add to it going back in time plus and i want to mention the great pyramid here plus things like the great pyramid the standard dating for the great pyramids let's say 2550 bc or so the pharaoh khufu also known as chi ops just in case people hear those terms i don't deny that he had something to do with the great pyramid but when i study it geologically and i

86:29don't want to get into great detail here when i study it geologically i think there was an older structure there i think there was something else there for instance the subterranean chamber i suspect goes back much earlier than the time of fourth dynasty khufu so for instance to bring in robert bouvall he has his orion correlation of the three pyramids to the belt stars of orion which correlate very well at about 10 500 bc so he'll talk and we talk about this in our joint book origins of the sphinx how there was a master plan going back to that period a lot of people have said well that's nonsense why would they be following a master plan thousands of years later when they finally got around to building these structures i don't think that's the case at all i think there were earlier markers or structures at those spots the pyramids in this case those three major pyramids

87:23were built over or enhanced or restored older structures if that makes sense so for instance under the great pyramid is what i call the sacred mound it's actually literally a stone outcropping mound and john paul bouvall robert bouvall's older brother is actually an architect robert pouval himself was trained as an engineer they both make the point among other things that if you're building the great pyramid i mean this is a humongous structure with incredible weight it's much easier to flatten the plateau at that point and get a nice level base rather than try to build over and around a mound that's to this day incorporate within the great pyramid this takes a lot more energy and work and it's a much more difficult engineering feat but it makes sense if you're you want to preserve that if it was sacred to them or whatever that older structure do we have images

88:23of the solar structure uh you can't see it at this point because it's totally covered but we have something very analogous and i know you mentioned this when john anthony west was on the red pyramid is also built over an older structure and you can see that to this day in one of the chambers where you have this much older structure i'm talking geologically now based on the evidence then we have some images there where you have this older weathered structure which i believe goes back i don't know how much older but thousands of years older let's just leave it at that and then they built the pyramid over it and around it i think marking it you know refurbishing a much older structure and you can tell by the weathering and the stuff the weathering of the stone the way they're constructed exactly and you can see the sharp divide between the older structure

89:15and the newer structure which is nice finely cut stone and that newer structure goes back earlier than the great pyramid i mean this is nefaru this is even earlier by a generation so you have this where they're using in dynastic egypt older structures they're reappropriating them you have the case here i believe you have that with the great pyramid i believe you have have that with the second pyramid you have that with the sphinx most definitely and the valley temple and the sphinx temple the first piece of evidence that really convinced me that something was going on with the sphinx so the first evidence that i saw that made me suspicious that the egyptologist did not have it right was within that first 30 to 120 seconds that i described the weathering and the hedge too small the first piece of really solid evidence was looking at the walls of the sphinx and valley

90:14temple that were constructed from the stones that came out of the sphinx enclosure we talked about that they are weathered but then they were cut back a little bit that weathering was cut back and they were resurfaced or refaced with granite in dynastic times it's believed so what you have is an older structure and here's a diagram uh for anyone that's looking at but what you have is older limestone temples which are massive which were then faced with granite but what they did they did it the hard way they preserved as much of the older limestone temple as possible before refacing it with granite so they actually took the time in some cases to cut the backs of the granite blocks to fit the weathered surface of the limestone wow whether it would have been much easier you have plenty of rock there just skim down the limestone totally make a nice flat surface and then re-plaster so to speak

91:13re-granted it wow um and what you were shipping away the old rock they chipped away the new rocks because i think it was important for them it's like if we have a national monument now that goes back to revolutionary war days you want us to preserve as much of the original structure as possible even if it makes it more difficult to do the restoration yeah you put the effort into it just to clarify so you feel that um this time period of the the coronal mass ejections mass ejections was somewhere around 10 000 bc well 9700 bc and i say that very specifically because based on greenland ice core data in particular you can literally count back right year by year and the best estimate is about 9 700 bc you know give take a decade okay so from that point to 2500 bc which is where most conventional egyptologists date the construction of the the pyramid you believe that the great pyramid was

92:22probably built on top of this great mound which represented an older structure but correct these are the people that their civilization was destroyed that's right and then thousands of years later were able to somehow or another rebuild these yeah thousands of years later well i don't know if they were rebuilding a nut pyramid as it was before or they were building buildings new pyramid on top of it obviously it retained some of the incredible wisdom exactly well think of it to this day um uh i i'll think of judeo-christianism uh i mean we still have uh like the temple mound we have places where we know that there were older structures solomon's temple etc and maybe only a fragment of it is left but we it's still held in high esteem veneration modern structures are built around or over these relics i think that's a somewhat as of an analogy of what the problem is

93:22in the parthenon yeah right yeah yeah so you have veneration of older if i could use and i'm not used necessarily using religious terms i mean could just be respect yes uh so i think that for all three of the major pyramids on the giza plateau we have evidence that there was something there whether they were pyramids as we see them now which is quite a possibility and they were just refurbished or something else we have evidence that goes back to that much earlier period before the demise of high civilization if i could put it that way at the end of the last ice age and then it was reappropriated reused rebuilt restored whatever term you want to use in dynastic egyptian times i want to give you another example have you been to egypt no i'm not i didn't think you had you need to come i need to show this to you in person i want to go with you your chicken chicken scared to go to

94:29egypt heard it's dangerous with me not with me because you take care of her no no i have enough contacts i have enough contacts okay i'll go with you immediately yeah okay we have to do that make something happen yeah well definitely definitely i wanted to point something out and just to just give people a perspective of time that 2 500 years ago the conventional dating of the the construction of the great pyramids cleopatra is closer to the construction of the iphone than she is to the construction of the great pyramids that's how long a history you're dealing with when it comes to ancient egypt so we're talking about thousands and thousands of years for sure and this is just from cleopatra to the 2500 bc which is what almost all the egyptologists accept you're dealing with just a giant leap here's the we could see it here that's right and and so and we are closer to the dynastic

95:36egyptians even the old kingdom dynastic egyptians we are closer to them in time than they were to the end of the last ice age and the demise of that earlier civilization so this is a dynastic egyptian dynastic egypt arose rough terms 5 000 years ago that was about 3000 bc that was they arose over 6 000 years after close to 7 000 years after the end of the last ice age so that's crazy yeah that's hard hard for we're talking real spans of time here and you're looking at we're looking at a chart right here is there anywhere is there a place where other people can go and see this yes they can go see a chart like this is on my website uh in the sidda article if you go to my website robert shock again www.robertsshockschoch.com and go to the website you'll see charts like this but what you should do is go to the main page of the website and then i believe it is research highlights go to what's

96:44called research highlights actually i think for those on the podcast are seen here and then go to what's called the siddha article s-i-d-a and this is what we're looking at we're looking at it on the website now which stands for solar-induced dark age siddha and again it's ironic i think that the sun which of course is bright could induce a dark age but when you have a major eruption like this a major outburst from the sun hitting earth and all the ramifications we were talking about it's going to bring any civilization down to its knees so thousands and thousands of years of rebuilding civilization and rising back up to some still unbelievably incredible technological level so even if they did rebuild the pyramid at 2500 bc it's still this incredible feat oh it's incredible so even for 2500 bc before if i could just finish a thought that i started to have i was saying we have to

97:40go to egypt together okay and i could show you some of this we could do a podcast there man oh snap i might have to yeah i could i would take you among other things around the second pyramid the second pyramid you can see evidence i would point out to you that i interpret as going back to earlier structure furthermore the second period pyramid few people seem to pay attention to this has a ring of a ring of granite around the base that's significant because they were using granite in many cases and conventional egyptologists have confirmed to this confirm this verbally with me they would use granite when they were indicating they were restoring an older structure and there's no question that granite goes back to the fourth dynasty just like there's no question that the granite on the valley and sphinx temple goes back to at least the fourth dynasty if not

98:36earlier but they're using it to restore so we have all this indication that dynastic egypt acknowledged that they were restoring older structures um so getting back to where we were just on the great pyramid so no matter how you look at it to try to do build a great pyramid today whether you're talking 2500 bc or earlier i mean how were they doing it how were they doing it i don't know i told you i'm not going to try to get into how they did i'm that's they did it it's there uh you know it's it's i have i thought about it a lot yes uh whether i'm there in egypt on site or elsewhere i mean it's incredible is it i don't have any answer for you is it possible that the people in that part of the world somehow or another survived the coronal mass ejection in and they came out better than the people in other parts of the world that were really knocked into the stone age

99:36no i don't think there's any evidence for that because because we seem to have a huge gap around the world around the city gap but they still historical gap now what they were doing in egypt is incomparable one could argue so it may well be that they found all the right materials all the right environments the nile valley uh is you know in its height which is not in its height now you know at the end of siddha let's say for re-emergence may have just been i hate to say the goldilocks words but just right for everything to come together for this to you know come together it's a very fertile area it's very easily uh defended that type of thing um and also i do want to tie in with what you were saying it is and i've certainly thought about this it is possible that uh we are electrical and um the fluctuating electric fields of magnetic fields did they have some influence or

100:44on brain development or you know that's real speculation but i wouldn't say it's impossible either so these people is it possible that they retain some of the knowledge from thousands oh i think they definitely retain so just like we have monasteries in europe during the dark ages retaining knowledge and what's interesting is in some cases you would retain chunks of knowledge that don't even make sense out of context except that they know they're important they know they're valuable what kind of examples well i think in europe where you would have pieces of technology that would be retained but you don't have the whole complex or think in literary terms that's probably the easiest where you have parts of like a history of alexander where the whole thing did not survive but you know six out of nine chapters or whatever survived and even though they knew it was an incomplete manuscript

101:42they would make numerous copies of that incomplete manuscript knowing that it was important sort of like the difference oh yeah there's another example although the dead sea scrolls potentially were absolutely complete or at least most of them were complete when they were buried and you know put away for storage a lot of them the incomplete was there may be because they degraded because they were discovered by you know locals who then tore them apart and sold pieces here or there i'm referring more to a situation where you have ancient knowledge or ancient manuscripts and even though say the monks and monsters knew that this was not a complete manuscript they knew that even in its incompleteness it was important to maintain as much of it as possible it's just stunning that a civilization that was knocked down like every other civilization somehow or another 2500 bc

102:38rose to this incredible level of construction that is just unparalleled anywhere else oh yeah and it did it very very quickly uh very quickly uh which i think does is it indicative potentially that they were reusing knowledge that had been passed down and somehow maybe things just clicked together maybe it took you know one genius to start putting things together and that set off a renaissance if you would i mean we've seen that historically in much more recent times and maybe perhaps the understanding of how it was built and designed is more prevalent amongst the civilization amongst the community than maybe it would be today yeah so i mean there's still a lot of unanswered questions here obviously yeah obviously it's incredible incredible stuff but i think we're starting to get more toward an answer or at least getting the broader outlines of what is going on

103:39wow this is it's it's so fascinating to think that this could potentially happen to us well that it's not only fascinating i hate to use the term it's scary and i think we're incredibly vulnerable and people are not addressing this yeah it's not the type of thing to address for some reason because a major solar outburst and coronal mass ejection and all the related phenomena we mentioned this earlier would bring down modern technology as we know it would fry the grid system you would have high radiation levels you'd probably have all the flooding i mean look what happens now when you have little floods and i say that as a geologist not to downplay the horrible disasters we've had but other factors for instance we have nuclear power plants all around the world we've seen that with a few isolated instances chernobyl three mile island fukushima recently

104:37what happens when you have problems with those if you cut off power to a nuclear power plant it's ironic a lot of people don't realize it yes they generate power but they need a power supply going into them if you fry the grid system you're essentially going to have meltdowns and radiation you're going to have problems and on top of everything else we're going to bring on this artificial radiation around the world uh i mean it's it's and again i'm not saying this i mean i don't have anything to sell you know sometimes i hear people talk about this because they want to sell their prepping kit and now they're going to say oh for so much money i'll sell you no jim baker style yeah yeah yeah but no and i hate to even talk about it except i think it's important and i think that one of the things this gets back to that it's not just sort of academic to study

105:27ancient civilization it's not just fun and interesting but i think there are things to learn from this and one of the things to learn is that they survived incredible well i don't know if they survived but they were knocked to their knees but we they went through natural catastrophes which are not unrealistic that we could go through them again and be potentially much more vulnerable than they are than they were at that time because we're so reliant on birds yeah is there any are there any hieroglyphs that are convincing or at least point to some of the construction methods of of the pyramid or of any of the other giant structures well you said convincing i would say no no i would say no uh and this gets into the problem too that why would you expect that i'm serious because what we have surviving are generally religious somewhat literary um things in

106:33tombs now i don't buy for a second that the great pyramid was a tomb or initially tomb that's like saying a huge cathedral is just a tomb because you find a couple bodies there and you've never actually found bodies in the great pyramid or any of the major pyramids and as you know i know you know this the pyramid construction goes downhill as you go into later dynastic egypt so they seem to have either gotten sloppy or just lost some of the yeah technological finesse they had so you find in some of the tombs these what almost seems silly um pictures of them dragging huge statues on you know sledges where they're supposedly pouring oil or water in front of it to lubricate it and you know the egyptologists say aha this is how they built it all well try doing that in real life it doesn't really work so i think some of that may just be sort of um artistic license or metaphor that type

107:33of thing do you have any images of that uh well not not that i brought with me um but my point is that you wouldn't even expect them to be leaving detailed construction plans uh or that we would necessarily find them maybe we'll get lucky fine someday but put this way if they find a bunch of iphones twelve thousand years from now or five thousand years from now with their whichever period we want to find talk about will they know what they are and even if they know what they are will we will they find the plans of how to build one and the factory specifications of you know all the engineering that goes into it no so why would you expect it for the great pyramid right but well you know it'd be a lucky it'd be a lucky find if you did but how much money the odds are against it and and not to throw out too much academia type stuff but one of the things i studied as

108:27a graduate school is i took a series of courses in tafonomy which is basically how do things get preserved focusy on fossils but it the principles apply to other things as well and as you go back in time what you expect to survive logarithmically drops off you know so you go back to these earlier periods it's amazing we have much of anything and what's going to survive big massive stone structures right not the plans on papyrus or sheepskin or whatever of right the details of how to build it that's why what i found particularly offensive about that um egyptologist saying where's the evidence of this culture from ten thousand five hundred years ago like what what do you expect to find yeah exactly this is we're talking about you know what we find from that earlier period if you think about are massive stone monumental structures yeah everything else would be

109:25grounded it was incinerated it was it was ground into dust or it was reused in some cases sometimes people say well they how could they do that without metal tools well maybe male allergy does go back further maybe it was lost and then reinvented again so again i don't deny the standard time frame but there could be a lot of things going back before that and if you have metal and i'm not trying to focus on metal now and i'm not making any big claims about metallurgy at earlier time but let's just say for instance as a thought experiment if you had metallurgy much earlier than conventional time frame says and you had a natural catastrophe like that are they just going to leave their metal tools all over the place right no they'd collect all the scraps of metal possible and recycle and reuse and reuse we do that to this day right i mean people got in massachusetts at least

110:24if you have a warehouse and you're not paying attention to it all the time it's an old warehouse there have been cases where people have found someone broke in not to steal the things in the warehouse but to steal the copper piping right yeah that's very common now there's some of these more interesting pieces of evidence that came out of the great pyramid and a lot of the other structures of egypt have been the pottery that's incredibly difficult to reproduce like those stone yeah yeah well you just made a mistake i'm not criticizing you i said pottery you said padre because it's important distinction right no it's not gonna play fired in a kiln in front of a car it's literally carved out really hard stone which will crack easily if you don't do it just right so it looks like pottery and that's you use the term colloquially put that way it looks like pottery

111:17because that's how people imagine you know it looks like a beautifully shaped pot but some of these they go and they go back to the earliest dynastic egypt and probably much earlier they are carved out really hard granites and schists and nice you know these really hard stones and to incredible tolerances and incredibly thin incredibly beautifully carved and what's most importantly too very small opening very small exactly and how do you do this i mean it's just incredible when you have to come to egypt with us okay and when we do we'll look at some of these on-site um there's a bunch in the car museum their summit uh museum at sakara where they uh that's not that's not even a nice one yeah that that's amazing looks like a mace header or that's a jar but that's not what we're talking about that's not there's much much nicer um uh i might nicer in the sense of the finesse

112:19of how it was the material that they were carved out of the marble they're different marbles the easier ones to do they would grab them out diorite granite nice which is a metamorphic stone schist these are really hard stones how do you spell diorite um d-i-o-r-i-t-e i believe try that because that's what i'm pretty sure i saw one of them that was carved out of that and so so so what i was saying is that these are really hard to carve they use very narrow openings like you said sometimes they put handles on them so they're not just spinning them on a lathe because how would you get the handles on it because that's not put on separately it's all carved from one look at that look at that there's a nice one uh that's why these stone vessels and these thousands of these have been found going back to the earliest dynastic times but what suggested yeah there's um

113:14how they were carved according probably to the standard egyptologist now try to do that without cracking it without making a mistake etc oh we'll explain what we're looking at we're looking at some sort of a it looks like a like a mace yeah that they would use to then scratch out the inside yeah too um and maybe they did it and just took a long time what's the speculation other than that look at the one right above it jamie that red one the red one right above your cursor yeah that one's incredible yeah they're they're absolutely incredible and we can see these on site so what what's the speculation uh the the speculation is that they were doing it the same way they were doing in new kingdom times so when you look at them in new kingdom times as a general rule you get things similar to this new kingdoms let's say 1500 bc just for round numbers you get similar types of vases and

114:09whatnot but they're actually to my eye much cruder generally they're made out of softer stone more your calcites and limestones and marbles that type of thing they generally are just not they don't have the same artistic finesse to them the same perfection to them and the new kingdom egyptians did show diagrams as we just saw of how they did it or supposedly did it and that may well be how they were doing it but i question as a geologist whether that would really work for these beautiful harder stone much more perfect in my assessment older ones that you find going back to the earliest dynasties and you find in some cases thousands of them so at sikara at the step pyramid generally considered the oldest pyramid although i would question that but it's definitely an old pyramid even by egyptological standards you found thousands of these really well carved ones from the harder stone the

115:10more artistic ones if we could call it that sort of a huge hoard of them i don't even think they were necessarily carved at that time i think this may have been a horde that they had preserved from thousands of years earlier sort of a stockpile or museum if you would in fact what we're finding for many of these quote tombs and temples not temples tombs and pyramids that type of thing is that maybe essentially they were stockpiles they were the equivalent of you know fallout shelters if you would were you stockaway supplies that type of thing that may have been part of the original structure uh some of these had very long necks too very very long bulbous bottoms exactly insanely difficult like the ones that are totally good but there's ones yeah some of them are extremely difficult some they have all kinds of curves and what you have to be careful as i was saying is that you have the

116:02really well finessed very ancient ones and then you have ancient ones that are from the new came to only three thousand three thousand five hundred years old yeah yeah uh and then what you have and i could show you one and if it's still on display in the egyptian museum i say still on display because they changed displays and they're building a new grand egyptian museum as they call it so it's hard this is in egypt yeah in egypt when we go to egypt okay now oh but like i was going to say i can show you one where i'm convinced that it's a very old bull that was then reused in later times so you see this cruder hieroglyphic inscription on it and you just look at it and you say someone that could carve that incredible ball would not have done such a crude inscription on it you see what i mean so and then when we go through each with the megalithic statues and whatnot you can find over

116:59and over where they would carve on them later so reappropriate them in later dynastic times which is still thousands of years ago so very ancient from our personal perspective but they were reusing older structures wow and older older artifacts this the whole subject is so fascinating to me but this bowl thing is very weird because it's almost like one of the crazier pieces of evidence but it's dismissed like oh yeah it's like right under your nose oh it's absolutely dismissed and it's it's not unlike and i only think of this because i know you saw it if you remember when you because i watched the recently to refresh my memory the podcast where you interviewed john anthony west and he showed a picture which happened to be my hand but in my hand was a little bead that was found at quebec tape and the thing is remember that little bee had this it was a very hard

117:56um probably volcanic stone and a little teeny hole drilled all the way through it the long way so you had a drilling that's you know a centimeter or more long going through it's not just a little hole punch through but a little tunnel going through there it is yeah um and you know how do you do that with quote primitive technology that to me is as amazing as direction of the pillars wow you know so you have to look at both small scale and large scale and like you say the bulls may be something you hold in your hand but yeah they're just as incredible technology just like if people were to judge us today ten thousand years from now they'd say that iphone is incredible technology even this small scale just like i guess they would maybe say if anything survives of them uh some high-rise was a incredible and this is gabeckley tepe is that what you just pulled up jamie these images

118:54and what are these images of it looks like nails or something like that yeah are they they call them ear plugs or earplugs some people claim that no one really knows exactly what they are earplugs yeah well you know now not ear plugs and plug your ears oh like yeah earrings i don't know exactly what that could be supposed to be yeah they call them buttons there sometimes what is the speculation on the construction methods of those complicated polls what what do people believe they did but the bulls that yeah egyptian ones is there any speculations or anything yeah the speculation is that they may have been using some kind of lathe for it at least in part but the problem is you can't turn it and still have the handle sticking right if you do standard work on you know spinning lathe that type of thing so there's something else that has to be going on there

119:49i was going to say part of the problem with any of this knowledge being passed down right up until at least the 1600s early 1700s you know there were guild systems where you would retain knowledge of how you do certain technological things and i think that may go back to very very ancient times but you don't want to just give out right you know the knowledge to anyone uh but you know again i've i've heard no good compelling in my mind explanations to how these things were made now one of the things that they found in the king's chamber was what they referred to as did they call it a sarcophagus like yeah they call it a sarcophagus i prefer the term coffer and it's made out of granite as one granite coffer meaning like almost like a treasure chest yeah a treasure chest or a big chest or rocks that type of thing it's missing its lid and the sarcophagus represents something you put

120:43a body in yeah and you don't think that's correct no correct that's why i don't like calling it sarcophagus coffer is more generic should we say right and doesn't the king's chamber has some of the more complicated stones right larger oh it has it's lined with granite so the the primary construction material of the primary construction material for the great pyramid is limestone right some of the limestone was quarried pretty much on site and you can still see the quarries there other high quality limestone known as tour limestone was brought from across the nile and you can still see the turret limestone quarries and then granite was used for parts of the construction particularly to line the king's chamber and this granite was brought from southern egypt brought up brought down the nile i should say from the south to the north of now flows from the south to the north

121:45and it's aswan grant and you're talking about huge blocks of stone up to 90 tons or so have been the estimates for those particular stones in the king's chamber so when you go into the king's chamber it's totally lined with this beautiful red aswan granite you've got this big coffer there that you know if they give you permission you can lie in and uh it's a neat feeling uh to lie in and a lot of people have you know all kinds of experiences etc it's just really incredible but it is these this lining is so perfect and so well fit together and you have this uh you know all the sides the roof the ceiling of the roof the our ceiling of it um the walls of it the floor of it the coffer there and then you have what they know called star shafts or air shafts that go out to the north and south that's what robert baval has worked on in part and then above the king's chamber you

122:47have the so-called relief chambers or relieving chambers which you can't get into normally i've been in there a few times but you have to get special permission they have to put a ladder up from the grand gallery and you go through this little snake hole so to speak to get up there but there's these chambers above it which seem to serve no function that's why they're called relief chambers or relieving chambers because there was early speculation that somehow they helped distribute the weight of the great pyramid but engineering from an engineering point of view they don't seem to work or it doesn't seem to make any difference i mean the rest of the pyramids solid and other pyramids are solid and don't collapse without why do the qualities change it's called the king chamber basically the arabs called it that because their concept was if i remember correctly

123:36that men would have a chamber with a flat ceiling on it the queen's chamber which is lowered down in the um uh pyramid has uh inverted v shaped chain uh ceiling to it and they thought that was for the queen that would be female the king's chamber would be for the male it's also the more impressive chamber right but it's absolutely speculation oh it's purely speculation yeah it's purely speculation now the coffer this uh giant stone box one things that i read was that the way it was built that they believed that it was possible that cores were drilled out yeah yeah probably the corn and we have good evidence for that going back to earliest dynastic times if not earlier that they um i forget what you called in modern times but uh you have a drill bit that is circular in shape and it drills out a core so you know they were drilling granite you again if it's still on display i could

124:37show you in the um egyptian museum in cairo sarcophagi which probably really were sarcophagi are these big granite boxes where they were sawing the granite in fact not only were they sawing it looks like they were using high-speed saws because in some cases they would make a little mistake and then have to back off and then go at it again you don't do that if you're in my opinion if you're doing it by hand you know back and forth with right so i think there's some sort of machinery involved there's some kind of machining they were using in very ancient times there's once you open your eyes to it you see it where you see it seems to be high-speed machinery but there's no speculation as to how oh there's lots of speculation i mean some people say they had electric motors and electricity and all that type of thing like i say some people though yeah some people i

125:31don't go there because i want real evidence right so i see real evidence that they were doing things that seem really unbelievable from a standard status quo conventional point of view say that standard egyptological point of view of how quote how primitive they were right but i'm not into speculating inordinately as to well what kind of technology they might have had i just don't know at this point yeah so is there images of the the inside of the sarcophagus like we could get a look at what that looks like oh it sounds very impressive i'm sure he could probably i don't know if you can see the drill marks usually no um but you know they're there you can see other places so for instance uh when we go into the uh valley temple next to it there's one of the doors that was on huge hinges and i don't think you're going to find pictures of this on the internet because it's very

126:31hard to photograph but when you look at that in person you can see how they drilled out you know the hinge several several inches in diameter and did a core drill because you can still see if i remember there you can still see the sort of the stub where it broke off oh wow yeah you can see how they were using sophisticated techniques to do this but no idea whatsoever about i don't know what can well put this way if we and this is i'm not speculating that they had such things but you can tell in modern times that someone used a power saw or a power drill or this type of tool or that type of tool thousands of years from now you might be able to still see that like this table yeah and like being interpreted but you don't have a single example of the tool that was actually used for it right right you know i mean these guys i sometimes almost find it silly when people say well

127:29oh here we go how could oh yeah there that's a nice example of it okay there we go that's a good example yeah that's actually probably the one i was just talking about oh this is a borehole yeah and you can see the uh how it's spinning you can see how they were cutting down quite a bit in each turn wow so so so i almost find it i don't almost find i do find it silly sometimes when people say to me the critics the skeptics oh you know if they were doing all this stuff well where's examples of their tools well i mean how many guys just leave you know they walk away from a site and they leave their bach tool box there you know or even or forget i mean all the all the mechanics i've ever known and people like that they're very careful to pick up every tool and put it back and make sure they've got all their equipment we'll go to the embassy building and try

128:22to find a hammer yeah yeah exactly yeah no that completely makes sense but man i would just like to know like what were they doing like how did they make that hole that's that's a massive massive mystery right in front of everyone's face yeah yeah exactly what's the standard egyptologist explanation there's really one thing they don't really have one they just shrug their shoulders oh we see that all the time well great you see it all the time but it it reminds me of um this is maybe silly but i'm going to say it anyway uh no i don't know well i'll say it anyway uh the supposedly uh analogy you know if you if you're used to something i'll put it this way if you're used to seeing something on a regular basis you start you stop questioning it just becomes um common yeah to you but you don't really question it it's like technology today how many people could

129:23explain how even the most rumored sense how some of the technology works that we have today the egyptologists seem to they just get immune to it they see all this fabulous stuff and they just forget that well this was made somehow we don't really know how it was made then they again go back to the simplistic explanations of oh you know in some new kingdom or late period we have this illustration this must be how they did it and i'm not convinced that that's always how they did it what is the illustration it's almost just like a little cartoon right did they have any illustrations oh yeah remember where they they would have a drill and some stones around it as a weights to keep it spinning no i haven't seen that uh maybe i have yeah you might have had yeah yeah i mean so you think that's just purely speculation yeah or it could be sort of the equivalent of modern cartoons of

130:20uh you know simple explanations of how something works and a lot of that is really more to say okay if you're a watchmaker i mean say 200 years ago you're a watchmaker you might have some sign that indicates you're a watchmaker but don't try to take that sign as a blueprint of how you actually made watches right right no it does it does um i so the when they constructed that coffer they somehow or another board yeah they probably bored down maybe bored in the corners bored down broke out pieces this is speculation now and broke it out and then once you've got it roughed out right then polish the surfaces that type of thing um so you know if you leave any traces of how it was actually constructed that's not as good as if there are no traces more or less you know it's not as good a job you look at something like the statue of kafra or chef ron this credible statue in

131:24the um egyptian museum again it's the one that was has the face of the pharaoh that supposedly was the face of the sphinx which they don't match up at all there's the hawk on his shoulders on his shoulders uh that statue is absolutely incredible you you know it's so smoothly polished etc you have to look very hard to find any tool marks or evidence of how it was carved because you know really good workmanship you remove all that right ultimately so that's part of the problem with some of this really high quality egyptian work is that they would remove the traces yeah there it is um you they would remove the traces of uh how it was made and in that image on the side of it you see that sort of plasma formation yes absolutely because this ties in this is why i brought image of this because it ties in with that whole um and it has the scenario as well and has the circle say well exactly very

132:31observant and think about the bird-headed man the hawk hmm you know right and this incredible statue if you view it face on you don't see the bird from the side you see the bird god it's incredible all this stuff is so fascinating so i think it really all goes back to this very early formative period if you would this really important period for humanity and what was happening there's a head-on view and there you don't see the bird at all of course but incredible and i mean carve something like that today i don't know what it would cost who you could pay i've heard you know this is anecdotal i've talked to stone cutters and that type of thing and you know to try to duplicate some of what they see in egypt i mean it just would take them so long and so much work and it would be so expensive with modern power tools that they basically say you know who could do it do you have any fear that

133:37this is gonna this information is gonna be lost i mean that you're so far down this track of sort of explaining these things and these revolutionary theories about what happened and i don't this is a i mean i've been studying this for a long time and this is the first time i'm hearing it so that's why you need to be on your show definitely i'm so glad you're here to get the sound to the public yeah you're so far down this road is there anyone else that's doing the same kind of work is anybody else's with you on this well i think i'm the one that's doing this right now but i think there are a lot of other pieces that tie in so perrot dr peratt's work but he's sort of been you know he had some health issues and other things he's older um the electric universe there's a what's known as the electric universe community which ties in with this that electrical

134:30phenomena and plasma discharges are more important there is a whole group now that i think are starting to think about what if we had another carrington event in the near future how would that affect our grid systems so i what i'm saying is i think there are a lot of little pieces that are starting to come together and you know starting to come together weaving this together but what i'm trying to do right now is to paint the broad picture the broad strokes and i think it goes back to the end of the last ice age and what was happening then right up until now and you know what the implications are and how is this being received are people picking up on this i think people are picking up on it and sometimes the you know people are picking up on it when how did they say it the sincerest was it copying someone or it's a sincerest form of flattery imitation that's it imitation and i do

135:35kind find sometimes get a little annoyed yeah people are starting to talk about a lot of these things especially the plasma and the sun and solar events and all of a sudden by chance they're talking about it not necessarily mentioning me but i think you know i know they tend to lecture or they've maybe read my book but yeah these things take time and i'm not asking for a lot of you know everyone has to acknowledge me but i think it's important to get the information out and i think as we have things like your podcast and people read the books and i'm able to talk at conferences we slowly get this out well you know it takes time it all takes time and put this way copernicus and i'm not comparing myself to copernicus but copernicus and the um heliocentric view you know he publishes that on his deathbed that was a view that actually went back to um there were predecessors in ancient

136:34times of course but he publishes that on his death bed and um you know a couple generations later they're still persecuting galileo for supporting it so these things yeah things go quicker now yeah but it still takes some time i see a big difference now than i do in the 1990s for even the re-dating of the sphinx do you think it's because of the internet yeah i think it's not neces yes the internet helps i have mixed feelings about the internet because the problem with the internet is you can disseminate information you get information out but it doesn't mean it's good information right so you get the naysayers the critics the skeptics they have access to it too fake news fake news and genuine fake news versus real fake news it seems that so many times they're flipped yeah yeah they're very much flipped so it's very confusing so one of the problems i see with all this information and

137:38misinformation and all these factoids out there is it's very confusing for many people if they're not involved in something and again i'm not trying to claim you have to go to experts and authorities because that's part of the problem too when you have the pseudo authorities who just are pushing their own agendas and frankly don't know what they're talking about and i see too many of that among people say certain academics and skeptics that type of thing but it's also confusing when you only take information and you don't know how to put it all together so i teach you know i teach in university i teach college at boston university and what i find with students and i'm not picking on them i'm saying this with all due respect they have so much access to facts and factoids we'll use that term but they have to understand the bigger picture they have to be able to understand critically

138:32and think critically about it to put things together and how does it all fit together and that that's so important and that's not something i think you get just from you know surfing the internet right of course quickly no watching a couple of youtube videos by someone that's not necessarily reliable that's a problem right how much misinformation has been spread through youtube more more than good information probably yeah i mean we could put on some fake lab coats right now and just make some nonsense videos oh yeah exactly exactly exactly and see i've had the problem too in my business you know what i'm talking about is that they say you can't please everyone all the time but it seems like in some cases in my career in this field i've been able to displease everyone because i'll come out with positions sometimes sorry i'm losing my headset i'll come up with positions sometimes

139:31where i'm not pleasing my academic colleagues but i'm not extreme enough for the should we say other side right you know so it's i'm like caught in the middle because i'm going by the evidence i actually have and it's not jiving with so to speak the tinfoil hat brigade yeah so how is that received by the people that i mean there are those ancient aliens type folks that really want everything they want everything to be ancient aliens and i've been accused of how could i not accept this or that you know me too because you get mad at them yes they get really mad at me and they're the nastiest yeah they're nasties and they'll even tell me well this supports what everything you've been saying i don't care if it supports everything i've been saved it's not real it's not real if the evidence isn't there it's not you know it is fascinating that they do dig up these ancient structures and the

140:19machu picchu and all these different places where like wow these construction methods are really pretty impressive what was going on back then but they always want to tie it to aliens they always want to tie to aliens which i think is a i hate to use this term but sort of a cop-out yeah i mean well it's a business it's a business well that's what it gets down to a lot of this is business people want to sell their books they want to sell their conferences they want to sell their dvds they want to um sell their youtube videos in some cases they want to sell for money in some cases they want to sell for promotion self-promotion they want to be famous i told you i i was accused of that back yeah in the early 90s oh i just doing this place i want to be famous no i'm i'm not that type of person people love those shows those ufo and ancient alien type shows and they

141:12love those conferences they go to those conferences and they all just mentally masturbate together it's very bizarre it's like but they're all like yeah there's nothing but you know but i think it will that's exciting but i think it does fill a void for some people and one thing i'm trying to do is to fill that void with something real right something important something that has evidence to back it up because there are a lot of questions there are a lot of mysteries and i will admit i've been on the ancient alien show but i've never proposed ancient aliens i've never supported that i've always been clear people actually listened to me but they asked me to be on it and a number of other academics have too did they use you out of context a little bit well yeah the context is not slippery yeah slippery but the point is that there are real mysteries to this yes today

142:05things that we don't really understand that you and i have been discussing about and there's so many more we could discuss but those are real and so many people that i know that watch shows like that when i talk to them and i'm talking academics who would never admit that they watch it they watch it because they find it entertaining number one they don't quite say it this way but i think it fills a void and it does raise issues that if they're perceptive then they might become aware of and realize that these are real issues no ancient aliens or some other easy answer is not the way to go but they are real things that need to be looked into so even when i speak at a conference like that there are so many very intelligent people that are there besides the other but you know they're different types of people sure but i know many people they'll have phds and stuff and they'll go to it for

142:59a serve between entertainment but also to get exposed to things they're not going to be exposed to by the standard academic community you're not going to get exposed to a lot of this these types of questions if you just go to the standard closed academic conferences they're going to be washed over so you know in part what i'm trying to do with oracle the organization for the research of ancient cultures which is not just me i want to be clear on that in fact we our president is um uh uh he he's actually i guess heavy metal guitar player he's he's really berkeley trained he's excellent yeah no i mean seriously but he he's a really bright guy and he's fascinated by these things we have people like jocelyn godwin from colgate university who's a world renowned scholar on the advisory board but what we're trying to do with things like oracle and i would encourage people to actually

144:01look at it because we've got a website up you can go through my website www.robertshock.com to get there or go directly to us at or www.oracle oh there it is there we go oracle online o r a c u l online o you know all one word dot org and what we're trying to do with this and also through the institute for the study of the origins of civilization iso c which i'm trying to do at boston university is to have a forum where we can look at these real topic these topics these topics seriously using evidence but not us but also not be dismissive just because we have to uphold the standard dogma so i don't want to go with just the nonsense you know flippant or easy out to sell someone's book that you know this crazy book or yeah i'm not being nasty about anyone um or you know just stick to the standard paratime but thinking out of the box but as they say but thinking out of the

145:12box using real evidence and using real logic and using real rationality to look at a number of these issues is there more resistance towards redating egypt and egyptology particularly ancient egypt versus other cultures like gobekli tepe and some other ancient structures that there were i would say beckley tepe the beauty of quebec tepe is that attached to it that's right the dating of quebecois tepe is the dating that is based on heart stratigraphy radiocarbon dates german archaeological institutions correct me if i'm wrong it's because it was it was purposely purposefully covered 10 000 plus years ago and in that case this ties back to our bigger picture you have evidence we have evidence of catastrophe at quebec lee tepe we have evidence that the pillars were knocked down and hastily re-erected and you can see that in the pillars they built these

146:16there we have a picture up there if you can see the pillar on the far on the right side that is not an archaeological reconstruction that pillar was knocked down it was put back into position but you can see how it was put back into position crudely using fragments of another pillar then they built these crude walls to sort of hold the pillars up they butted against it well to me this is happening and the dating confirms it in the aftermath of the initial solar outburst at the end of last ice age when you had all this tumultuous um you know things happening uh earthquakes and this the precipitation the rain the fire coming down the thunder so you have this incredible situation where we have captured at quebec lee tepe the catastrophe that was going on and how they were trying to reconstruct it and i think i don't want to say they gave up but for whatever reason there's probably just

147:14so much they end up covering the whole thing artificially maybe to preserve it maybe they intended to go back to it maybe for posterity i don't know what they're thinking was we could you know speculate about that but tying in with what you were just asking quebec lee tepe is not tied to some other later civilization as is dynastic egypt so there's not a lot of dogma involved correct if the dogma there is involved how sophisticated it is right is quebec tepe and you know those that want to uphold the standard story saying well yeah it's pretty but it's not that sophisticated yeah that's right dismissive data they're trying to just yeah they call it hunter gatherers and they say oh hunter-gatherers are there by primitive and um therefore they you know they just try to wave their arms and say it's sort of like saying it's an anomaly but not much of an anomaly so we don't

148:13need to really worry about but they've only correct me if i'm wrong they've only uncovered this very small very small fragment of it yeah very very small so this is an enormous structure it's an enormous structure and in that picture that's up we'll describe it for those that don't see the picture um but there's pictures like this in my book forgotten civilization in fact i think that's right out of my book probably are very similar to one you can see the pillar in the back on the left do you see how that was knocked down and it's propped up and it is been put back into position and they built these crude walls against it before they buried the whole thing so this whole site underwent dramatic catastrophe was being put together quickly again and then and those are proper 3d animals as well there's this oh yeah there's one right there isn't that beautiful the sort of

149:05i call it a feline sort of feline going down and they had a car of the stone around that that's right right so much more complicated oh much more complicated and when they were when they were carving these originally taking them out of the quarry to get say a 15 ton pillar i think we're looking oh there we are it's so crazy is that beautiful i love that now if you saw that in a museum of modern art it could fit right in uh two points i just wanted to make before i forget them one when you're carving these pillars to get a 10 or 15 ton pillar like that finalized you have to carve a much bigger chunk of rock initially because of course you have to leave the rock where you're going to have the animal you have to leave the rock because they're not it's sizing these in they're carving them in relief so that's a lot more complicated cut away all the rock et cetera so this is a credible

150:01technological feat also off the record and this one if you look at that one uh do you see how it's got weather pigs and whatnot but you also see the weathered surface i'm going to teach you a little geology here that is a older pillar that was being reused at the end of the last ice age i believe so some of these structures actually go back earlier and before klaus spit passed away unexpectedly he was talking about this too that even there they were maybe you reusing some structures that were a little bit earlier or maybe several thousand years earlier so this goes back the origins of quebecois tepe may go back thousands of years earlier when all said and done once we get the evidence in well into the end of the last ice age stuffed out about 9 700 bc i was going to say before i forget it a lot going on here off the record and of course they would never admit to this but

151:01off the record i've spoken to archaeologists when you know they're in a giddy mood and uh drunk and and asked them well if you just found say that animal on the quebecois tepe pillar in isolation or you just found one of these pillars or part of one in isolation you were just looking at how old do you think it would be and i've heard the answer 600 bc a thousand bc based on the technol you know the technological finesse the beauty of the carving not eight nine thousand years earlier right you know but they would never say that on the record right right right yeah because it's so complicated yeah yeah yeah yeah and then but i've had them say that well if they just found say that little feline type thing on the side of the pillar just broken off in just an isolation they'd probably say one told me yeah oh maybe it's a thousand bc at most right yeah at most but not 9

152:02700 bc or whatever that's crazy now have they identified the quarries were these uh stones yeah some of them happen and they're not super far away the kilometer or a bit more i mean it's there's limestone around there so it's not a situation as you have in peru for instance where they're dragging this stuff you know tens of kilometers away but i don't think that detracts from no no no what they were doing yeah still crazy and um you know it's easy for me to say this but once you've quarried a block if you're moving a kilometer it's not that much harder to move it 10 kilometers it just takes more effort but it's the same technology it's really quarant be able to move it to begin with and then be able to carve it into this beautiful structures and something i want to point out too is that a lot of times when i talk about quebec lee tepe i'll make the comment about

152:59stonehenge because people are familiar with stonehenge but stonehenge when you look at the blocks there they're so much cruder yeah than what we have at quebecois tepe and the quebecois tepe stone pillars the central ones particularly they are so beautifully carved but if you look at them they're also very very thin in their smallest dimension there you can see it how thin it is and that one's anthropomorphic with the belt and the hands and that sure looks like some people would say a metal buckle on it so that's very similar to like those easter eggs and it's very similar to easter island there i think there are definite connections there but why shouldn't there be we were just talking about rongo rongo an hours two ago yeah and how they were seeing similar things in the sky but i wanted to point out that when you carve a pillar like that that's so thin and narrow that's

153:57much more difficult to keep it from snapping to keep it from breaking also if you see in that pillar how it's set into the bedrock it set in just literally very very shallow umly set into the bedrock klaus schmidt commented to me that and he published this too that they seem to be using some kind of concrete or cement to help set them into the bedrock which is untold of at such an early period when he first was excavating them before he got down to the bottom i think he said this to me furboy he estimated that about a third at least a third of the pillar should be set into the bedrock just to hold it up prop it up not just on the order of centimeters as you find and is this a sturdy construction no it's not just no no you can't touch it now they won't fall over touch it it probably would fall over they have to do all kinds of supports on it now my suspicion is that initially it was

155:00not roofed over there that they were freestanding pillars and they were very very um carefully set and balanced and everything was in perfect order this is total speculation but like many of the obelisks and whatnot they may have even had a vibration to them they may have purposefully vibrated or picked up some kind of frequency you can see there yeah how shallow it is but they would they were finely tuned whatever you want to call that and i'm not trying to claim it's some kind of weird machine as some people have called speculated but i think there was something there and resonance and audio cues audio frequencies are historically very important in both modern structures usually you think of as religious but you know affects your mental thinking and abilities and that type of thing so something may have been going on there with that this may also be why they broke so easily

156:04during the catastrophe i shouldn't say easily it was a huge catastrophe right um but they were trying to re-erect them well no what is the timeline in terms of like the total uncovering of that site oh in modern times i mean no what are they trying to do like how much time do you think it's going to take for them to completely uncover oh if they do it carefully century centuries oh it could be it's a huge sight and and klaus schmidt when katie and i were there um i think he waved his arms and talked about how there's all these other hills out there that probably have more under them i mean you're talking a huge complex and we know that in some cases because you see little fragments sticking up and that type of thing and also remember when you're doing archaeology and i have training in archaeology despite what some of my critics will say when you're doing archaeology it's

156:56inherently destructive because you can't put it back together so if you don't do it carefully you don't do it right you're destroying evidence you are inherently destroying evidence so a lot of people nowadays professionals they don't want to excavate an entire site at one time they want to leave parts unexcavated so that other people have a go at it as you develop new technology you can apply that to a different part of the site plus practical things this is in turkey it's close to the syrian border um and we know how the political situation there is with islamic state et cetera they would love to destroy this site i'm sure really it's very close to urfa which is the city of abraham it's a very sacred holy site for judaism christianity but more than anything else islam quebec li tepe is just outside like half hour drive by taxi from urfa in urfa you have the um

158:05sacred cave of abraham you have the pools of abraham you have a big mosque there and i bring this all up because this is a very ancient city when they excavate in urfa not archaeological excavations but say they build a new road or they do build a new underground garage they often hit 12 000 year old or thereabouts remains so there's this beautiful statue called urfaman which is now in the museum in urfa which also houses lots of artifacts from gobekli tepe and it was found right near the modern pools of abraham when they were doing some construction project but it represents an image of the people supposedly or at least it's an image of a man a person that gets back to gobekli tepee times it's about full size it's about the same size as me but lacking legs very similar actually has a lot of comparisons to um the moai on easter island got a picture of this i think we do i

159:13think we do look look is that beautiful wow look he's staring at you with obsidian eyes and he is from quebec lee tepe time but he was found in urfa and you're not going to do it we're not going to do it but if you could just wipe out the modern city and excavate there who knows what you would find wow potentially urfa hot this is me speaking it's one of the oldest inhabited cities on earth um going back to the late ice age well this is something that goes on in mexico city as well right yeah start building a apartment building all kinds of things and you hit all kinds of things find an aztec temple yeah and and in cairo in other parts of egypt there were families that lived for centuries because their little huts or their community was on the top of ancient ruins and they would dig in their basement and pull out a gold statuette or whatever sell it and you know eat for the next

160:13six months so is this urfa place is there any consideration to like picking isolated spots and starting to dig and well yeah i think there's some consideration on the part of um you know archaeologists and turkish government that type of thing but you've also got a very strong religious element see religion placed into all of this of course and also you don't necessarily want to destroy uh ancient islamic temples say an islamic mosque i should say a mosque that goes back to i don't know i'm just making this up 800 a.d or something to excavate something that's a few thousand years two thousand years older or ten thousand years older or more i mean you again on the one hand which am i more interested it might be one versus the other but other people are interested in the other see i mean there's all these factors that play into it so it gets very complicated very messy and then of

161:10course you have the situation and this ties in where you know i know christians are more interested in the birth of jesus and where the manger is and we can see in egypt if one's entrusted the supposed place where the holy family stayed when jesus went to egypt you know whatever um and you can see things like that in urfa for abraham and whatnot and how do you respect that with but also want to excavate underneath and then some people would say excavating underneath is sacrilegious to you know what their main interest is you know so it gets very very complicated i bet phd's in egypt uh one in particular just to tell you a quick anecdote i'm seeing there having breakfast this was in the 1990s and it was in a hotel where it's overlooking the pyramid in sphinx so i'm looking out at them nice having nice breakfast a guy comes down sits with me joins with me starts making

162:12conversation turns out he's at um cairo university you know economics i think he was a professor of economics or whatnot and he starts telling me because it's obvious i'm not a chip egyptian american and why am i there i'm staying in the pyramids and things he starts telling me his opinion of all this nobody's opinion was that the pyramids should be dismantled get rid of the sphinx don't need any of that use those raw materials on site to build a covered over air conditioned shopping mall bigger than the one in dubai and that would really benefit egypt economically and otherwise who sent this he was a professor at um cairo university i mean i don't know his name but i have no question he was genuine and real and i didn't laugh or anything because he was serious but where is he coming from in part egypt didn't mean anything to him dynastic egyptians

163:20a lot of egyptians do it means something to them but there's a lot of egyptians in egypt they're muslim if it's pre-muslim it's not a big deal if it's pre-arab it's not a big deal because they're arabs they might have been in egypt for over a thousand years but the native egyptians is not their culture and culture wow well but it's not think about america how many native american mounds and graves and whatnot get bulldozed over with that maybe the most preliminary archaeological salvage to build a shopping mall or a new development that's true it's the same thing it's the same thing we think it's really crazy when someone like that would say that about the pyramids and sphinx you know because everyone knows about them but from his perspective if i quizzed him he could have turned around said well look what you do in your country well it's almost human nature across the

164:21planet yeah when they're inconsiderate to do something along those lines so my point is not really to criticize him he had a very different perspective um it's i don't agree with that perspective right but i could understand where he was coming from he wasn't coming you know he wasn't some great he didn't strike me some crazy fundamentalists or anything like that he was just thinking in different terms right and for him and he's not the only one i've spoken to in egypt egyptians who take that perspective now others will say we have to save all these but not necessarily because they could care less about pyramids and sphinxes and tombs but because they're good for the economy right because it brings in tourism but then there's the counter argument which i've heard many times that egypt has to separate itself from tourism so you need to cut off the nipple

165:18yes because i've had egyptians say to me in no uncertain terms and not joking or anything but point out that depending on how you count it you know 25 to 60 or more of the egyptian economy could be based on tourism because it's not just the direct tourism but it's those that supply the people who deal with the tourists et cetera et cetera and when you have a situation that you have something happen in the middle east it could be far from egypt but people get excited you know americans all of a sudden tell me oh it can't go to egypt that's dangerous to go to egypt because something happened in syria that's what i heard and it has nothing to do no but think if our country and our economy was dependent upon tourism solely or you know not solely but major portion of it was tourism and then something happens in brazil and all of a sudden because something happened in brazil no tourists are

166:16coming to america and it cripples our economy i mean i can understand that perspective no i can completely understand their perspective what is the perspective in turkey when they're dealing with uh gobekli tepe and well i think it's uh mixed too i mean i think they're in turkey unfortunately from my perspective you've got uh more and more rise of should we say radical islam and fundamentalism that doesn't really want to worry about such things but you also have people who um see gobekli tepe as potentially someday vying with the sphinx and pyramids for tourist dollars and for a destination i mean turkey is wonderful in my opinion i love both turkey and egypt um just to visit them to travel through them that type of thing within country you have to know what you're doing but if people travel with me i know what i'm doing i don't mean that nasty way i think i know and i will not take

167:10risks um i'll take risks for myself and i've as they say been on the wrong end of a gun yeah what happened well the worst was pakistan but that's another what were we doing in pakistan i was collecting fossils this is when i was a graduate student and at one point um i was accused of carrying plastic plastic explosives and all of a sudden had four um ak-47s upon myself well not point they were i felt something yeah they were touching them and and i know enough about small arms these were loaded and um you know cocked and i mean their fingers were on the triggers not in the trigger guards yeah yeah it turns out i didn't have plastic explosives and you know i'm a mild-mannered guy and i said you know whatever you want and i didn't do anything wrong and i explained and i was carrying um back then uh little bricks little things of uh oil-based clay that i guess have the texture and feel

168:13of some of the explosives they would use we would use these when we collected fossils and you find a bunch of fragments to prop it up and put into position as you glue them together um but tough explaining that yeah yeah i had to explain all that and um someone came from the pakistani geological survey and explained that yeah i really was who i was but you know it's a situation where people get excited and that was back in the bad old days of you know well i don't know if it's even better in pakistan now but you know they're tough situations but if you know how to behave and you know how to deal with it you know how to avoid it you'll be okay and right now i would say egypt is very very safe it really is people have all kinds of misconceptions about egypt turkey we were starting to talk about turkey turkey may be going the other route a little bit i'm being very honest

169:12uh but i have no problem going with turkey i have no problem taking people to turkey but at this point there are certain areas i might avoid just to be on the safest of safeness a little more slippery yeah but i would never endanger anyone else in fact i always err on the side of safety when it comes to anyone else um not that i want to take great risks with myself either but you know sometimes as a geologist i feel i have to do what i have to do do you have any plans on releasing this theory of coronal mass ejections and all the things we've talked about today into something like a documentary something that might be a little bit more i would love to do a documentary something that um john anthony west and i we're often talking about documentary we also would like to do a film a full length feature film if we could get backing and whatnot sort of uh

170:09how should i say it's semi popularized uh you know semi-fixed size but always based on real science real data real evidence so yeah i've seen so many films where they're about geological catastrophes whether it's huge asteroids hitting or you know san andreas fault and they're so faked yeah but because it's not real what what really happened it's not really what would happen and what i'm saying is what has happened in the past and what really will happen in the future if we get hit again which i hate to say this but from a geological perspective there is no doubt these things are unavoidable it would be like saying we'll never have another volcanic eruption or earthquake again of course we will of course we will so it's better to be aware of it and prepare for it so yeah i'd love to do um a good film and this is yeah i feel like a film would be something that

171:05would really catch on well if you could help us well i'll connect you to people maybe that would be excellent i'm serious i'm serious this is something that katie and i katie for those that just tuned in katie's my wife and uh i think you heard when we were talking before she has some background and um you know she was a dancer and entertainment in broadway but film connections we really need so let's put it out there for contact information if someone is in that business hold of you absolutely the best way to get a hold of me would be through my website www.robert shock s-c-h-o-c-h is how the last name is dot-com or if they want to email me directly and this is on the website careful with this thing i know well should i give out the email go to the contact page my wife is to my left hand she said the contact page she nailed it she said the contact page did i say too much no

172:04no you're good okay um so if people go to www.robertshock.com and then go to the contact page they'll get my contact information there i think we have a fairly direct way to contact me i've also i believe got my business address there boston university address office because i really am at boston university full-time tenured faculty member and uh i'm interested if people want to contact me about film if they want to go to each with me i do tours periodically i'll arrange something if people have enough you know if they want a private if they have enough people that would want to come to make it viable or you know these things cost money right if i were independently wealthy maybe i just take people for fun right at my expense but i just i don't have that well i guess you you have stimulated a lot of people's imagination can i mention one more thing that chamber

173:01the chamber under the paw of the sphinx for a quarter century now i've wanted to continue the serious research on that i have context in egypt i've talked to the ministry of antiquities the um actually director i guess he is of the grand egyptian museum the new museum i think we could make inroads there to actually explore that if someone has money or interest in that the problem is and i want to say is bluntly a lot of people say oh well why don't you just raise money by crowdfunding doesn't work for egypt you have to have the money up front they don't want you know crowdfunding type money so that's another thing so my point is that there's film project love to pursue there's research love to pursue that's why we've set up the oracle the not-for-profit to do this all right and legitimately that's why i'm setting up the institute at bu institute for the study of the origins

174:01of civilization so lots of possibilities and i'm hoping we can make some of this happen i'm hoping we can too i really appreciate you being here man it was really awesome to talk to you and you blew my mind this this whole theory's it scares the out of me but it also it's very exciting well thank you thank you and again i'm not trying to scare anyone but i think we have to be real and we have to be realistic and there's no point in hiding and you know closing your eyes to things and it's just an awesome theory i mean it's just it's very cool thank you thank you thank you very much