Christof Koch: 如何拓展你的意识｜克里斯托夫·科赫博士

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Welcome to the Huberman Lab 播客, where we discuss science and 基于科学的工具 for 日常生活.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a 教授 of 神经生物学 and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： My guest 今天 is Dr. Christof Koch. Dr. Christof Koch is a neuroscientist and investigator at the Allen Institute for Brain Science and the chief scientist at the Tiny Blue Dot Foundation. He is considered one of the great pioneers and luminaries of modern 神经科学. Christof's 研究 has spanned how we perceive the 世界 around us, how 不同 状态s of 心智 arise and shape our 体验 of 生活, and, most notably, 意识. I joined the field of 神经科学 way back in the 1990s, and even way back then, Christof's name and his work were considered seminal for our 理解ing of the 大脑 and 人类 体验. And over the subsequent 30 years, he has continued to do incredible, groundbreaking work.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Today, we discuss 意识, what it is, literally, at the level of quantifiable 大脑 mechanisms, and how 理解ing 意识 at that level can help you 体验 生活 more richly and allow you to place deeper 意义 on everything from a typical morning to grief and loss to your greatest and most awe-inspiring moments. Christof also explains how our individual 体验s and 记忆 place us each into a unique, what he calls, '感知 box,' which is what shapes your outlook on 生活, and in many cases, your quality of 生活, including your 心理的 and 身体的 健康. And he explains how you can change your 感知 box through what we call 神经可塑性, which is the modification of 大脑 circuits.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： We also discuss what 心流状态, 迷幻s such as DMT and other 迷幻s, 冥想, 睡眠, and 梦ing tell you about how your 心智 works and the nature of 意识. And we don't just discuss 意识 at the level of individuals. We discuss the collective 意识 of 人类kind. So, if you're some身体 that's interested in the 大脑 and 心智, what it means to be 人类, how to evolve and improve your 心智, 今天's discussion will address all of that. Oh, and we also discuss dogs, cats, Jennifer Aniston, and the 意义 of 生活.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： So get ready. This is a very special episode of the Huberman Lab 播客 that I'm certain, by the time it finishes, will have you thinking 不同ly about your 生活, and dare I say, with a bit more optimism.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and 研究 roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer 信息 about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, 今天's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Christof Koch.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Dr. Christof Koch, welcome.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： Thank you for having me, Andrew. It's been a pleasure. It's been more than a decade, 12 years since we last interacted.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Yeah, I've always enjoyed our interactions, and one of the reasons is that you're always into something super interesting, big, big 问题s and evolving fast all the time, all at once. So, I think most 人们 have heard the word 意识. They perhaps have pondered 意识, but at least to my 心智, it's not a very well-defined word. So when you talk about wanting to 理解 意识, or about having 意识 or being in a moment of 意识 versus say, a rock, which I'm presuming doesn't have 意识, what are we talking about? And here we could be using biological language, psychological language, or philosophical language. Please include all of it because-

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： Much 简单r.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Okay.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： Do you hear me?

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Hmm?

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： Do you hear me?

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Yes.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： Do you see me?

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Yes.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： The fact that you hear, not that you respond to my sound by moving your hand. The fact that you see, not the fact that you can navigate around this room, but you actually have a picture in your head.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： The fact that you 爱, the fact that you 恨, the fact that you 梦, that you imagine, that you dread. Those are all 有意识的体验. It's the stuff of 生活, literally. If I give you a billion dollars, okay, that even for you is probably a 意义ful amount of money, but let's say-

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Well, it certainly is, yeah.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： Okay, but there's a s光, you know, thing that I'm going to remove all your 有意识的体验, so you would still 爱 and 恨 and drive cars and do everything else you do right now, but there would be no 光. There wouldn't be any Andrew. Would you take that wager?

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hm..

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： No.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： Well, the difference between those two 状态s is 意识. So without it, you don't exist for yourself. In fact, tonight you're going to go to bed, in particular in the early stages of the night, you go into non-REM delta wave 睡眠, right, and you do not exist for yourself. If I wake you up, I said, "Andrew, Andrew, something's happening," and I ask you, "Well, where did you come from?" You say, "I came from nowhere," which is 不同, of course, later stage in the night, right, when you have a 梦, which is another 有意识的 体验, but when you 睡眠, you do not exist for yourself. When you're under anesthesia, you do not exist for yourself. So you only exist for yourself because you are a 有意识的 being. So in some sense, it's very 简单 to define.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Historically, has it been defined as a 简单 just presence of self and 感知 of the outside 世界, the way you're describing it? I 感受 like 意识 has been twisted and turned, and, you know, weaved into balloon 动物 form over so many hundreds of years that 人们 tend to argue about 意识. And then they start getting into discussions about free will versus no free will, but why, given the simplicity and the clarity of your explanation, have 人们 struggled with this definition of 意识 so much?

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： The study of 意识 is really a modern phenomenon. It's really René Descartes. So, you know, Aristotle and Plato, much as they are the foundational fathers of philosophy, they didn't really have a position on the 心智 or on 意识. That's a modern thing. Where we have struggled is trying to put it in objective form. So, you don't access my 意识, and I don't access your 意识. And this makes it 不同 from anything else that we study, 不同 from a black hole, from a virus, from a 大脑. Because all those I can study with what philosophers call 'third-人 properties,' right? You can stick them in a magnet. You can point a telescope at it. We can agree on what's the wavelength, what's the weight, what's the mass, what's the molecular constituency.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： We can't do that with 意识. I believe you're 有意识的. In fact, I ask you, "How are you 感受ing 今天?" You tell me, "Well, I'm a little bit depressed because of what happened." Well, so I'm trying to get at your ……的状态 意识, but ultimately it's always an inference, whether it's you, or whether it's a baby, or whether it's an 动物 that can't directly talk because language is another way to infer. So that makes it more difficult, and the other part is that 人们 confound 意识 with 意识 of self. So most 人们, if you ask them, "What's 意识?" they say, "Oh, it's to know that I'm a man and I will die one day and I know what I had for breakfast." Those are all 有意识的体验, but they really pertain to self-意识.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： But that's just one aspect. You can lose self-意识... Like, I know you had Alex Honnold here, and I know from reading and listening to some of what he says, he says when you're really climbing at an expert level, you flow over the rock.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： You're sort of high, you totally lose a sense of self, that inner voice, that critic that constantly speaks to you is gone during those moments.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： There's this blessed silence, but you're highly 有意识的 because you're highly 有意识的 of where you are and what's the next place you need to go to. And of course, during 迷幻 体验, during 状态s of flow, during 状态s of 冥想, you can lose yourself, but you're still 有意识的. So let's not confound self-意识, which is one aspect, a big aspect, particularly in adult 人们, literally highly educated 人们, with 意识 that took over. That's really a much broader set of... The fact that you can 感受 your limbs, right?

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： That may not even relate to you, just 感受 something there without assigning it, "Well, that's my 身体." That is, again, it's another 有意识的 体验.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： The liminal 状态s between 睡眠 and awake, in both directions, falling a睡眠 and waking up... Do you think they offer any windows into this deeper 理解ing of 意识, or does one even need a deeper 理解ing of 意识? For instance, I'm a big fan of yoga nidra, which I've described as non-睡眠 deep rest. You deliberately lie down, do long exhale breathing to slow your heart rate down, bring down your levels of autonomic activation, more parasympathetic, et cetera. And the idea is you stay awake while deeply relaxing your 身体, a very atypical waking 状态 that is more similar to rapid eye movement 睡眠, when the 大脑 is very active, the 身体 is paralyzed, as you know.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： Lucid 梦ing?

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： It's a ……的状态 心智 where... The instruction in the classic yoga nidra scripts, and this goes back thousands of years, is to move your 心智 from thinking and doing to being and 感受ing. You're supposed to be in pure sensation. This is the idea. And as one does that, 10, 20, 30 minutes, and you do it repeatedly over your 生活, as many days as you do. I've been doing it since 2017. I can 感受 my-

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： You do this every day?

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Every day for 30 minutes. Yeah. I can 感受 myself falling a睡眠, but not quite falling a睡眠. So it's a little bit like lucid 梦ing, but then as you re心智 yourself to bring your 感知 to your 身体 surface or your heartbeat, your breathing, w恨ver it is, and stop making plans, you lose past and future, and you become hyper-present. But something about your sensation and 感知 merges with thinking, and it's like you-

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： But Andrew, is Andrew still there?

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Yes, I'm definitely still there. I'm definitely still there. You're not out of the 身体.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： But you don't 心智-wander in the past or in the future?

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： No. No, and it becomes very easy to do this, so you actually 感受 as if you're falling a little bit. Like the vestibular system probably shuts off a little bit as you're going into this, and you 感受 as if you're falling into it. And the classic definition, and I've tried to translate this to physiology, but they talk about once you eliminate thinking and doing, and you are more in a being/感受ing 状态, what they called 'the energy 身体,' is more accessible. It's almost like you're 感受ing things within your 身体, and it's looping back on itself. Now, this all sounds very mystical, but what we're really talking about is more interoception, 感受ing, you know, you're moving your perceptual awareness, as you know, to things from skin inward. It's a very unusual 状态, but yes, I'm still there in yoga nidra. I'm not someplace else. I'm actually more in my 身体 than in any other 状态.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： Well, you could also be simply not there at all.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： Where Andrew isn't there, the self, the one that carries your traits and your 人ality, your 记忆, but you're still 有意识的.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： That's interesting because it is very relaxing to emerge from this. It's a great tool for replenishing 身体的 and 心理的 energy, and I've tracked 睡眠 while in this, and there are some really nice 大脑 imaging studies now of 人们 doing yoga nidra, also called 'non-睡眠 deep rest,' and pockets of the 大脑 go into regional 睡眠 as opposed to what we normally see during 睡眠.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： Anon-

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： Whole 大脑.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： So it's an interesting 状态. I'll send you a script to maybe give it a try and see if it means anything to you.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： I would be... I'm interested in all these 不同 状态s of 意识 because it's all...

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Yeah.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Yeah.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： I mean, it's dominated by everyday waking 意识. But as you said, that's all about doing, right? You walk, you run, you shop, you look around, you talk to 人们, but there are all these other 状态s that don't involve the William James time streams of 意识, but they are all 有意识的体验.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： And so, the more we know about them and the physiological basis, the better we can describe and delimit what 意识 is and what it is not. So, for instance, to your point, 意识 is not primarily doing. Of course, we can do things, right? We do it all the time. That's how we make a living. But 意识 is really more about being. It's a ……的状态 being. And by the way, that's also why 计算机s, they can do everything we can do, but they can't be what we are... Conscious.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： But that's-

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Please elaborate on that.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： We confound 意识 and behavior because we talk. We're speaking apes, right?

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： But if you take that away, you are still highly 有意识的. If you don't move, if you meditate or 睡眠 or you have a mystical 体验, you're sitting... Or a 迷幻 体验, you're sitting or lying, you're not moving any 身体, hardly any overt movement, yet you're highly 有意识的, right? So, behavior is not required for 意识, and 意识, of course, is not required for behavior. There are all sorts of un有意识的 behaviors. And so, we shouldn't confound the two. And this relates in an interesting way to the confounding between intelligence and 意识 when 人们 talk about artificial 意识 and artificial intelligence. Intelligence ultimately is about planning to do something, about behavior in the short term or in the long term, while 意识 is a ……的状态 being. Being happy, being sad, being full of dread, or seeing something which is really 不同.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： I'd like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors, BetterHelp. BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online. I've been doing weekly therapy for well over 30 years, and I've found it to be a very 重要 component to my overall 健康.

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This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： I'm curious about the stability of self-representation. As you know, there are many conditions related to 大脑 lesions, strokes, injuries, et cetera where 人们 will lose their 记忆 of the past, or the inability to form new 记忆 emerges. But one of the things that seems so rigid is one's notion of self. Like a baby coming into the 世界 very quickly learns that they have a name, they have a self, that self interacts with other things, and I'm not aware of any clinical conditions where 人们 lose themselves completely for long periods of time.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： Derealization.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Derealization.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： Well, derealization is one where you 感受... So, A, you're perfectly right. The self is the basic kernel of our operating system.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： Okay? And it's very difficult for us to lose because if we lose it, we would not be, from an evolutionary point of view, in a good shape, right? But then there are conditions where you 感受... So, for instance, in derealization, a psychiatric condition, which can, by the way, happen during 迷幻s, you 感受 not you anymore, and you 感受 there's something off with the 世界. This is not the real 世界. There's something funny. The 世界... They still see and hear fine, but they all believe that this isn't the real 世界, and they try to wake up. In fact, you probably remember a year and a half ago, there was a spectacular case of the Alaska Airlines pilot who asked to go onto the jump seat on a f光 from Everett in Washington to, I think, Oregon or San Francisco.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： I've flown that from Everett. Tiny airport.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： Yes.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Yeah.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： And then they said, "Of course." He's a colleague. He was a pilot in good standing. Into the f光, he stood up and tried to pull the two switches that would kill the fuel to the two engines. The pilots fought him and kicked him out of the cabin, and he was arrested. In fact, the trial was three days ago. What happened was that for the first time ever, he took 迷幻s three days earlier at a wake for his best friend, and then he went into this episode of derealization where he 想法, "Okay, this is not the real 世界. This is a 梦. I need to wake up. And if in my 梦, if I crash the plane, then I will finally wake up in the real 世界."

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Whoa.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： So, yes, it is very robust but of course... So I call it, we always live in the gravitational field of planet ego. It is always about me. It is always about me, me, me. And even if I don't think explicitly, there are things that are, you know, there are processes monitoring my 意识 to make sure that it's always 重要 for me.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： And it's very rare, but of course, the self can also be highly dysfunctional, right? You can catastrophize, you can be highly anxious, you can think 人们 are insulting you, or they say bad things about you, while in fact they don't at all. And so there are rare conditions of selflessness when, just like an astronaut that can become weightless, you can become selfless.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Hmm. Interesting.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： So during episodes when you are experiencing a ……的状态 flow... I used to have this when I wrote 计算机 code, when I was way younger. You can totally get absorbed by it, right? Or you read a book, or you read an engaging movie, or you play some sports or something, or you're Alex Honnold and climb, right? And partly these 状态s are so addictive because it's such... You've just realized you spent the last 20 minutes in this heavenly 状态 doing something, but again, the critic is gone. And of course, during high, sometimes heroic doses of 迷幻s, you can also totally lose yourself, the sense of self, and you realize how profound, beautiful the 世界 is without you. You know, the self being there and constantly interfering and relating it to, "What does it mean for me?

This passage develops the interview discussion: 安德鲁·休伯曼： Mm-hmm.

This passage develops the interview discussion: 克里斯托夫·科赫： What does this give me?"