How To Not Let Your Past Define You - Scott Barry Kaufman

00:00sooner or later you have to give up all hope for a better past what's that yes isn't that a great quote it's it's probably my favorite quote out of all quotes in the history of the world um the psychotherapist irving yom talked a lot about that um and the importance of taking that existential perspective with this with his patients and i think for all of us it's really important to recognize that um we shouldn't be prisoners of our past um as much as we keep ruminating over and over again that we wish something was different, that's not going to change the thing. No matter how many times we ruminate about it, it's not going to change it. So what I really want to do is help people practically and hopefully move forward with their lives. I mean, it's a great point that if you're kind of railing against something that

00:52happened in your past hoping that you can enact some kind of control over it or alter what it was that occurred you are fighting a losing battle that's just not going to happen yeah that's exactly right and um i think for a lot of us we get stuck on a certain frequency um and and and and i think sometimes therapy is not helpful with that you know and that shouldn't be a controversial thing to say at all you know um if i had to choose i would choose irvi alam as my psychotherapist who because uh irvi alam is the psychotherapist who has that quote sooner or later you have to give up all hope for a better past yeah yeah talk to me about the intersection of psychotherapy and identifying with our pasts well there are a lot of different orientations out there for psychotherapy um there's an orientation called trauma-informed therapy that i criticize a little bit

01:51because a lot of therapy is going and talking about your past. And I think that it's possible that if you're viewed only through the lens of your trauma, you can forget that you have other things that you can provide to the world. You forget that you're allowed to have a future. You're allowed to have a great future. So, I mean, not all trauma-informed therapy is bad. Of course, there's nuance here. but i think you know a big part of what i wanted to the message i want to give in this book is that if we only view you through the lens of your victimhood um your pain you know your potential takes a back seat to your pain i have to say i i did twice weekly psychotherapy for about a year fascinating it taught me more about myself than 1500 to 2000 sessions of meditation uh you know it's like inviting somebody into a house you've lived in your entire life

02:54and then walking around and pointing out rooms that you didn't know existed and those rooms connecting to other rooms that you did know existed and you're going holy fuck like i wondered why the kid they threw the back of the kitchen and oh that's that leads into that leads into the living room and that's how that thing's connected to that thing and you the veils really do fall from your eyes but it creates a fucking ton of open loops it's basically here is a thing that happened. And maybe this is why, and this is how it impacts you in the present. But if you're sort of action oriented, if you're a bit of a ruminator, if you're a little bit sensitive, dude, the fucking temptation to become a victim is so strong. And I saw this, I'm still seeing this in myself. And that's why I was so excited to speak to you about your book, largely so that

03:42you can uh you know detox me i need to be exorcised of uh of the the stuff that i'm fighting with do you know what orientation your the psychotherapy was that you underwent yeah i could ask yeah it was like a little bit yeah it was a little well therapy obviously could be very helpful i'm also a big fan of coaching and so that's why i've gone into the coaching space in the past five years, because coaching is very future oriented and it's not about diagnosing you or trying to find what is the diagnosis. I think sometimes we get hung up too much on what is my diagnosis, you know, or what am I? And we get so hung up on that, that it's like we're grasping for something to reduce ourselves to, to hang our, to hang our identity on. And that can get in the way of us seeing our, our full potential, but, you know, seeing the depths of our being as well.

04:44What do you mean when you talk about a victimhood mindset? Let's set our terms. Oh, absolutely. So having a victim mindset means you tend to blame all your problems on external circumstances, whether it's that life dealt you a bad hand or that a person or even an entire group of people have it in for you and are holding you back. You believe you don't need to take responsibility for your actions or reactions because of your past trauma. So it's perfectly okay to go around being an asshole to people because you can blame that on your own past trauma. You can't stop ruminating about your past victimization. And this is probably the most important part of the definition. You may fixate on how to enact revenge and you rarely think about solutions or ways of moving forward with your life with hope and purpose. That tends to be a real big part of it. Everybody has bits of that though. So to say,

05:30the entirety, you explain all of your, I think most people would go, well, that's not me. i don't explain all of my even the most victimy victim doesn't explain all of their things everyone has a degree of agency right you know i have control at least over this one bedside table i have control at least over the color of socks i put on my feet or whatever it might be um so dig into that for me a little bit because i guess that most people are uh varying degrees of victim on different days based on how much sleep and their blood sugar and and you know well you nailed it. And this is what was tricky about the framing of this book and trying to come up with how are we framing this book? Because most of the self-help books that sell really well will tell you it's not you, right? Usually the two go-tos we blame are your ex-boyfriend and your mom. Those are the

06:25two big ones. And most of the corner of the market in the self-help world either blame the mom you know the narcissistic mother and borderline mother or the ex-boyfriend and so in discussing this with um and then also the jews we like blaming the jews and everything as well that's that's another story um so i um was working with my publisher at first i wanted to pitch a book on vulnerable narcissism which is what is the topic i've been scientifically studying for the last 10 years and they're like well people weren't going to admit that they're vulnerable narcissists. So I was like, okay, but this is something that we all, it's a dynamic mindset that we all can go in and out of. And I do think that you lose your agency and you lose your empowerment when you do outsource all your problems to others. When you blame all your

07:11problems on someone else, you are stripping yourself of your agency. And so I really wanted people to see that. And I also wanted to come from a clear place of caring and not diagnosis. And I go through great pains. You'll see in the book, right? Like every sentence, there's a caveat. You know, I'm not here. I'm not in the game of shaming anyone. Not in the game. Usually when you talk about narcissism, when you talk about a victim mindset, it's always like it's the liberals or it's the, you know, the libtards or it's always about something else that then people bond together to like to have the outgroup be the narcissist. And that's not the vibe of my book. I call it honest love. You really validate someone's real felt experience of suffering, and you're honest with them that you believe in their higher potential. What I think is missing

08:01is that latter part in our society today. Give me some examples of times where people might be acting like victims that they might not realize it. The person who, moderately agentic, upwardly mobile, I do my thing. But where does a victim mentality sneak in in ways that we might not know it is yeah it's a terrific question all throughout the course of our day there's an opportunity to choose a victim mindset or choosing the power of mindset if we're waiting at starbucks and there's a long ass line it's very easy for us to forget that there are other people in that line as well that are probably also not having a great day you know but it's very easy to fall prey to the notion gosh don't they know how bad my day is i deserve to be at the front of this line you know it's like this certain mentality that i think we all can kind of fall prey to and we forget that

08:49We're not the only ones that are suffering. It happens everywhere. A big cognitive distortion associated with a victim mindset is seeing malevolent intent in ambiguous stimuli. Very nerdy. I know you'll be able to parse that, but it's a very nerdy way of saying, let's say you're going down the street, you smile at someone, they don't smile back, and you take it personally. You get mad. You're like, what the fuck? Why did that motherfucker not smile back at me? I went out of my way to smile at them. it's like okay chances are they probably didn't even see your smile they're not thinking about you they don't care about you why should they care why should they care about you they don't they don't know anything about you um you know um most likely it was just and it was just ambiguous it wasn't that aggressive so personalizing everything um seeing malevolent intent in

09:42really just neutral stimuli um a really good example that is is comedians really that really bothers comedians you know because that's their job but if they're like they see aggression in ambiguous facial expressions when they're performing on stage and that makes them really angry like why are you not laughing loudly at my jokes and uh and it doesn't even and they they interpret that as well the person hates them and hates their jokes so that's an extreme example but if we go across you know our everyday life like that you know over personalizing things um And, you know, if someone doesn't text you back right away, you fall apart and think, oh, gosh, they hate me. You know, all that stuff is really holding you back. Where does a victim mentality come from? Like, why? Yeah. Well, I think everything honestly comes from a mix of nature and nurture. All of our personality dispositions.

10:38It's definitely a personality disposition in the sense that some people we find in our studies over and over, some people score higher than others regularly on it. But I also think it's a dynamic mindset and a lot of it does come from, I'm hesitant to use the word trauma, but a challenging experience in our life where we felt like we've been wronged. There's some really interesting research where they wronged people in the laboratory intentionally and they look to see what that does in terms of whether or not they punish an innocent person in the experiment. Don't you love social psychologists? so they found that a very a very statistically significant effect that those who were um wronged in the study like they got the short end of the stick in one way were more likely to give a puff of white noise to annoy a completely innocent they suddenly became a sadistic they suddenly

11:36normal everyday people became a sadistic psychopath so i think it is it is a mindset that we all can be it can trigger all of us i really can't stand this constant you're a psychopath i'm not you know we're living in a society right now where everyone is so quick to call everyone else the narcissist and and see themselves as the perfect angels and i just don't think that's the accurate reality of the matter so is this retributive justice is that what you think these people are doing no i think we feel justified because the universe to balance things out a little bit to um to uh it's like a you know it's interesting a lot of people say they're really into justice but what they're really into is self-justice what's the difference just not justice for all but when there's injustice they see against their self then suddenly they hashtag myself matters

12:33but oh right okay so most most people's um self-justice is a threat against one's own ego but also their campaigns publicly are usually motivated personally that i would get something something would tell me that most of the people well actually i was gonna say this but then this would kind of run against rob henderson's idea of luxury beliefs right like although i suppose that that's actually a hollow campaign that's someone not really caring about defunding the police not really caring about black people not really caring about this no i think they really care i think they really care um but they care because it's a threat to something they see themselves a part of and i think that um what really is they count a signal against i am not part of the bourgeoisie i am not oppressing you yeah yeah um it's interesting that you link that to the luxury beliefs idea um i mean the idea of signaling

13:33is is everywhere once you start to jeffrey miller told me that once he said he said that Once you start to study signaling, you can't see anything in this world that in any conversation that isn't some form of signaling. So I always thought that was interesting. But I think that what is really lacking is a real care for universal principles, universalism. If you say you care about justice against racial discrimination, you should care when a white person is discriminated against, right?

14:06Like, and that's just, I mean, that's just an example, but it should work all the way around. If you're a white person or if you're a white supremacist and you're like, I care about justice against white people, you should also care about black people too. You know, like, like we should care about universal principles, not just to the extent to which an injustice has occurred against something that correlates with yourself. Why is victimhood so seductive? Like what's the. It is our default state. Here's something interesting. Have you heard of learned helplessness, the theory of learned helplessness? I have. That was, you put dogs in a cage, you shock them. Yes. Give us the full overview and explain how it's been debunked. You were halfway there. Martin Seligman in the 70s and 80s did a whole series of studies starting with dogs and rats, and then they eventually went to humans.

15:00And I'll get to humans in a second. But they found that in dogs, you continually shock a dog. and then you open up the cage. So you keep them locked in a cage and you, this is delightful, right? This sounds like psychopathic behavior, doesn't it? But on the part of the experimenter, but you continually shock a dog while they're locked inside a cage and then you look to see at what point when you open up the cage, do they walk out? Because you give them the option to be free at some point and you look to see how many times do you shock them before they no longer walk out of that cage, even though they can be free. And so they found that dogs pretty quickly were in helplessness. You know, it doesn't take that many shocks for a dog to give up and not walk out when the doors open. But what was interesting is when they got to humans, they found and they had to completely redo the theory.

15:55So they have a paper 50 years later where they say they got it completely wrong. They're completely opposite. it. In humans, it seems like learned helplessness is the default state in humans. It is something very primal about that, where we default to learned helplessness. And what we have to learn is hope. Hope is an intentional process that has to be learned. So you ask, why is it so seductive? Well, there's something so primal about the rewards we know we're going to get if we signal victimhood it is something that just through the we're such a social species and we know that the person who's perceived as the victim throughout the course of human evolution got a lot of support and of course there are people there are real victims and of course we need to say that it should almost have to not be said but we obviously should make clear that we're

16:50to compassionate humans. And of course there are real victims, but there also are, um, so a victim mindset is independent of victimization. You can have real victimization and not harness a victim mindset about it. I have a friend, um, uh, who's really cool and he has like no arms or legs and he has two hooks, um, Tom Nash. And he, he's like, I'm not a victim. He had, uh, he had a menococcal disease that that caused him uh to lose uh to become quadriplegic and he's like i'm not a victim i actually i love these hooks he like rolls up in style with them you know um vice versa you can not have been a victimized and have a victim mindset as well and i talk about the dark triad in in the book i have a whole section on uh dark triad activism yeah a quick aside i've been wearing my Whoop for over five years now, since way before they were a partner on the show. It is the only

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18:32slash modern wisdom. Just dig a little deeper for me. I think I've heard you talk about this upending of learned helplessness to learned hopefulness. Just that kind of turns the gravity of a lot of the way that people see their efforts, their perspective on how successful they are. You know, the fact that I don't default to thinking positive some, to being agentic, I find it hard to overcome difficulty. A lot of the time I feel like things are outside of my control i sometimes i get this sense that my past is marionetting me in the future um just like sink a little deeper because i really think that's i think that's just such a fucking powerful uh remover of guilt for people where you go oh i'm not i'm not broken this this isn't a personal curse this is a inbuilt part of being a sensitive human i'm really glad you said that a lot of

19:38people, and this is well known in the trauma literature, a lot of people who have had a terrible thing happen to them, especially when they were young, they do implicitly, unconsciously believe they deserved it. It's a defense mechanism. It's not a healthy one. But a lot of people will say in tribug, why? Why did this happen? I must have deserved it. And they start to develop a sense unconsciously often that they're broken inside. And a big mission that I'm on and the whole second half of the book, that's the whole second half of the book, is find the parts of you that are not broken. Find the light within yourself. And that is the biggest problem when you identify singly with your victimhood. And what boggles my mind is there's a lot of people that are committed to that. They're committed to identifying with their

20:28victimhood completely. And it boggles my mind. I guess for some people, it is the only way they know it's it's it's it's encouraged in their community in their certain in group you know that that's like the way to be um but there are entire communities where it's not i mean if you if you're part of like the athletic sports community i feel like there's a whole culture around overcoming a victim you don't lose a game and the coach goes all right team let's pack it up let's blame the other team for all our problems let's give up but there's not going to be a next season you know didn't will bra the lakers but i don't think he has a victim mindset over over that situation that happened this year um so i i think there's certain cultures and communities that really encourage it and some that that don't so just go a little further back that you mentioned

21:21people who are struggling because humans are so pro-social will tend to be uh helped up there will be given assistance. This is sort of ancestrally, I guess. Have you thought any more about the EP approach, the adaptive reason for sort of how victimhood works, that dynamic, what it means? Yeah, I hinted at that a little bit earlier, but we are such a social species and social value is such an important core part. You know, reputation and social value is such an important part and i think when if you go all the way back to you know like savannah desert we're a very tribal species and to be and there's a constant i think there's a constant battle there's a constant victimhood olympics going on going back to the start of humanity the dawn of humanity we've been engaging in this victimhood olympics where you have two sides um that are warring against each

22:23other. And there's this notion that there can only be one victim and there can only be one oppressor. That is what gets you the greatest rewards. Because if you claim that spot of being seen as the victim of the conflict, you get resources and support. But if it's the second that you're seen as the tribal group that is the oppressor, nothing you can do can be right. you know like nothing you're you're pure evil no matter what happens so i think there's something so primal about that war for that coveted seat and as you see it's in my in my last chapter i don't shy away from saying how it's playing out again in the israeli-palestine conflict and how it plays out in almost every intractable conflict among humans there's something so primal about it

23:16Does that suggest then that modern culture isn't contributing to incentivizing victimhood? Because a lot of culture war conversations talk about how victimhood is now being pedestalized. It's allowing people to get completely contribution-free status and manipulate the system. But you're saying this is vestigial and has gone back as long as humans have had social groups. So which one's right? Well, do you think our modern culture incentivizes, does not incentivize victimhood? Oh, I would say it does. It does. I'm trying to work out, is that a magnifying effect? Does it become a catalyst? What is it about modern culture that's caused that to happen? I think it's like asking, why do humans still like fatty foods? I mean, I think that we're seeing remnants of an evolutionarily primal need that needs to be overcome.

24:13I mean, it's something that I think we see generation after generation after generation because it's so deeply seeded into our DNA to incentivize that. It's very hard for people to, because it's so deeply ingrained, it takes cognitive work to be able to perceive that there could be two victims at the same time. Very hard for people to wrap their head around that. And I think that's the only way forward. Is there an additional level of incentivization or contribution from the modern world? Is it social media? Is it a desperate need to try and upend inequality? Why is it that there's a little bit of a catalyst going on? Yes, and yes, yes, and yes. I just had a conversation with Jonathan Haidt on my podcast about this. Yes, social media, especially TikTok, really incentivizes a victimhood identity among youth. So there really is a lot of peer pressure.

25:20um for for you know it's no um no surprise that teenagers go through an identity crisis that's happened since the dawn of teenagerhood and hoodum but now teenagers are hitching their identity as much as possible on some sort of marginalized identity because they know that's the way that's the only way they can belong that's the only way they can feel like they're included why why would why would somebody be more included on the margins than in the middle Well, this is the million-dollar question. You'd get the Nobel Prize if you figured out exactly what was happening. But there seems to have been a cultural shift among youth where – and Jean Twenge has done a great analysis of this in her book Generations.

26:07Prior generation, high self-esteem and grandiose narcissism was the major form of entitlement, which is we're the best. We're the best generation and they're proud and happy about being superior. But now the entitlement, you get special privileges for saying you've suffered. So it has become a vulnerable form of entitlement that is being incentivized more than prior generations. um it's an interesting question i think a social media must play some role in that there's some sort of feedback mechanism where that seems to be what gets more attention and gets more likes i mean when we deal with the attention economy like we're doing with social media you start to see certain things start to get magnified um and certain things start to compound um that maybe we didn't even uh that weren't as prominent in the past but you just don't get as many um likes if

27:11you're not being polarizing and if you're not um talking about some sort of victimhood i remember i think it's in the happiness hypothesis jonathan height says uh sympathy is investment advice and ancestrally what he's talking about is the fact that if you see somebody who's really down on their luck and kind of desperate and in need of support, that person will, you basically get a multiplier for every unit of effort that you give them compared to somebody who doesn't really need the effort. Now, the person that doesn't really need the effort, you give them some berries, they might be thankful for some berries, but someone who's starving, if you give them some berries, they really, really owe you. Now, there's lots of reasons why we have sympathy. We're a pro-social species. We don't want to see other people suffer, et cetera, et cetera. But,

27:56you know, deep down, there is going to be a bit that says, hey, you support this person, they're really going to owe you. This is going to be great for you long term. And I wonder whether your opportunity to crowdsource that level of sympathy across the internet is a big motivating factor for people to do that because you have an unlimited size tribe of people who can think, whoa, God, I really should help this person. I don't really know why, but they really seem to struggling. And wow, in an internet filled with people that are being performative and not showing their true selves, look at this person. That's real vulnerability. That's authentic. That's relatable. I see me in them. And as soon as you create this dynamic where people are incentivized to help and you stand out by having some degree of what appears to be authenticity, authenticity

28:48very easily. I think a good way to talk about authenticity would be, or to signal it, is to say a thing that typically would be costly to say otherwise um yeah you know uh sam harris i think is uh is is authentic you don't need to agree with him or disagree with him but he pays a high price for a lot of the opinions that he holds so you have to assume that he believes them because if he didn't believe them why the fuck would he still hold them like why would he talk about them like you would just say something that was easier than that and you would and he gets a lot of shit for it and he says he says the only way he ever finds out about it is when i forward them to him the emails keep keep doing that that's very important but yeah what do you think about that what do you think about this uh sort of um yeah investment advice authenticity relatability

29:33dynamic is that contributing i i want to think this through is it contributing to uh to the to what i mean i think sam incentivizing victimhood at large ah see see like sam is such an oddball you know in the human species um he he's willing to say what he believes to be true regardless i I understand. Sam wasn't the example that I was using. The point being that typically people see a degree of vulnerability as being authentic. But the problem is if you can bypass the authenticity and just be vulnerable, that gives all of the benefits of authenticity whilst not having to do it, which is where performative vulnerability comes from. If you film yourself crying on camera, people think, wow, they're really sad. I didn't know if you were sad or not. Maybe you're just good at crying. Maybe you convinced yourself that you were sad. Maybe you over-egged your degree

30:24of victimhood in order to be able to show this online because you're going to be positively reinforced to do it because people are going to care. I think there's a really great insight there. I do talk about the difference between performing. I call TikTok vulnerability versus authentic vulnerability. I see this kind of TikTok vulnerability on steroids and it does get rewarded. I think that there is genuine sympathy involved there. There are people, you know, it's like there are people who when they see the signal, they generally want to help. They generally have the empathy and want to help. And so that kind of TikTok vulnerability, they know that they are going to get some reward. It's like when you're a child, you exaggerate a little bit that you're sick because you want to stay home from school and you get rewarded by your mother showing you

31:16a lot of care and concern it does feel good to have that attention it does feel good you know like even you chris mr no victim mindset i'm sure if you're not feeling well whatever like there might there's a human tendency to want to like broadcast to others that you're not feeling that well um to kind of get um to get that sympathy okay our genes our destiny surely they're the most immutable parts of us so how can people not identify with their genes did i did i address your prior point though because i thought it was really fun yeah i thought it was really interesting um yeah so uh genes okay so g is like a dirty word right in in a lot of circles i think people think of genes as something that is immutable that uh we can't change but i would much rather live in a world where nature and nurture contributed than than either living in a

32:19genetic deterministic world or an environmentally deterministic world so i'm actually happy with the way that uh evolution has given us genes that are highly sensitive to the environment but are not completely determined by the environment um so i like that so do you want to do you want to do you want to cover attachment theory is that whatever you think is whatever dude yeah whatever you think's most salient from the genes side. Let's dive into attachment theory. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Look, you're not going into business to learn how to code or build a website or do backend inventory management. Shopify takes all of that off your hands and allows you to focus on the job that you came here to do, which is designing and selling an awesome product. Shopify powers 10% of all e-commerce companies in the US. They are the

33:06driving force behind Gymshark and Skims and Aloe and Nutonic. And that is why I've partnered with them because when it comes to converting browsers into buyers, they're best in class. Their checkout is 36% better on average compared with other leading commerce platforms. And with ShopPay, you can boost your conversions by up to 50%. You can upgrade your business and get the same checkout that we use at Nutonic with Shopify by going to the link in the description below and signing up for a $1 per month trial period or by heading to shopify.com slash modern wisdom or lowercase that's shopify.com slash modern wisdom to upgrade your selling today because there is there are so many misconceptions about what attachment theory is and there's so many ideas that it's all the fault i think a lot of people have a victim mindset about attachment

33:49theory they say well i have an insecure attachment because of the way i was raised but as i talk about in the book the behavioral genetics research shows that there is a pretty substantial heritability of your attachment style and i think that it relates to your personality Like if you score very high in neuroticism, which is going to be influenced by your genes and your environment, but genes really matter in influencing the development of your neurotic traits, you're going to be more anxious in your relationships. You're going to be more self-doubting and it's going to show up in your relationships, but it's also going to show up everywhere else in your life.

34:29So I think attachment theorists sometimes look a little too narrowly at the attachment relationship demean. And I think they could use to zoom out a little bit and take a bit of a personality neuroscience slash genetics perspective a little bit more. hmm well i mean look genes are everything right they are the your height they're your weight they're your ability to gain muscle uh i'm sure you've looked at in some parts the sort of incel black pill ideology a lot of that is you know genetic dead end but that's actually what they refer to themselves as so it's difficult for a lot of people facial symmetry are you telling me i'm gonna have to people go and get leg lengthening surgery you know all of the different ways the compensatory mechanism i've gone bald early in life you know whatever you're and then you

35:19compensate you fly to turkey and get new teeth or get new hairline or whatever um genes in many ways are our destiny and it's hard not to identify with them because they are immutable in many ways yes but if if i gave only that message then there'd be no point in writing the book rise above. Because we also have an agency, as you said, to compensate, to do what we need to not, you know, what's it going to do to help you to say, oh, I have the genes for shortness. I'm just going to never talk to women ever again. You know, what is the use of that? What is the benefit of that? So no matter what circumstance you're in and no matter what hand God has dealt you, I think it's very much in our control to do what we can with what we have so I think both are true and we can hold both in our mind at the same time but you're right I mean it drives me crazy when people ignore the role of genes

36:18and I have a whole section of my book on that in terms of not just attachment theory but also well it's a very controversial thing to say that trauma is heritable that's probably one of the most if you want to not be a a lot of people to like you at a cocktail party. Tell them that heritability, that trauma has a high heritability. Have a look, dig into the research around that for me. Okay. How do we, how do we cover this sensitively? Well, I think that in a lot of ways, trauma is the narrative that we tell ourselves about an experience that happened to us. This notion that trauma is stored in the body, I don't think is scientifically accurate. The Body Keeps the Score is the number one. It's been on the New York Times bestseller list. It's created a whole cold falling. It has so much popularity. I don't believe that's how the brain works. Our trauma story is stored in

37:19our brain. It's not stored in our body. What we have in our body for sure is survival stress. we have in our body. We can obviously feel the stress involved with assaults, with various things that happen to us. But the word trauma, that really is the narrative that we've cognitively and consciously put on a series of things. And you can see it change too. You can see situations where a person never thought they had trauma and then they go to therapy and then they get convinced by their therapist that what happened was trauma, so then they changed their whole narrative. So you can see how fluid our notion of traumatic experiences are. So when I say that trauma has a high heritability, well, it is interesting because there is research showing that people who have a genetic proclivity towards the personality trait neuroticism do tend to see the world

38:12differently than people who are low in neuroticism. They tend to see threat everywhere, whereas people who score low in neuroticism don't tend to see the threat everywhere. You could have twins. You could have, well, you could have siblings who are not twins. You could have siblings who don't share a lot of genes. Not identical twins. And they both could have experienced the same exact thing in their childhood from their parenting style. And one is like, I had a traumatizing childhood and then you see this case. And then the other child is like, what are you talking about? We had such a great childhood. You know, and it's like, what's the truth? In a lot of ways, the truth is in the eye of the beholder. And you also see that with attachment styles. So I talk about it in the book, but the genes for neuroticism color the extent, what you focus on in your relationship. And so it focuses your attention

39:03on various aspects of the relationship and it makes you ignore maybe some of the better, lovely aspects of a relationship that you just can't see because you're so focused on will they leave me, will they leave me, will they leave me. Does that make sense? And I hope that was somewhat sensitive No, yeah, it does. It does. I mean, I remember you talk a bit about epigenetics and I can't remember who it was I was speaking to. Might have been Roy Baumeister. And he was saying that if a mother goes into poverty during pregnancy. So if a mother who's pregnant loses her job, which is a pretty reliable way to go into poverty, you get epigenetic changes inside of the baby that is being carried inside of it. So, you know, ancestral trauma, which is, I think, people talking about, I'm one 16th Native American, one like 120th Native American, and I can feel the sort of pain of the ancestral land.

40:06I think that starts to get us outside of the realm of science and into the realm of woo a little bit. but given the fact that if you have a daughter as a baby that's inside of you that baby has every egg that she's ever going to carry for her entire life so at one point you were inside of your mother who was inside of your grandmother like that's the kind of position that you hold i don't know how epigenetics works down to the level of egg cells inside of a developing baby but i could see that you could quite easily create two generations of epigenetic change by having a really really stressful event occur to the mother while she's pregnant yes yes and um people do make too much of intergenerational trauma effects uh because the data does show that beyond two generations um there's no uh indication in the blood of the of of this so i think that there

41:08is some partial truth to this, but I think the trauma researchers make too much of it. They go way beyond what the evidence actually shows. I mean, I could literally show you papers. We minimize my use of the word literally. I want to work on that. I overuse the word literal sometimes, but I would love to show you some papers that really cast doubt on the pervasive effects of intergenerational trauma beyond two generations. So in terms of the holocaust for instance or in terms of people's slavery blacks you know people say intergenerational trauma you know from you know my great great great great grandmother is is the reason why i am the way i am today and evidence is actually slim on that idea one final element here to try and curveball you epigenetic change uh the increased activation or of particular genes in expression uh of genes uh within someone surely let's say that you uh start off child

42:13of a slightly neurotic parent uh you've probably got the genes for a bit of neuroticism and then during childhood you or even during adulthood you go through a really really protracted period of chronic stress and this epigenetic change that was primed you had all of the materials you had all of the ingredients for this very neurotic soup inside of you and they get turned on. How do people not identify with the fact that maybe they can even remember a time before this when they weren't this way and now this epigenetic change has occurred? As far as I am aware, it's easy to increase the expression of genes, but it's very hard to decrease the expression of genes once they've begun to be expressed. Yeah, great point. And if you want to discuss epigenetics within the development of an individual's lifespan, there is a lot of evidence for that, for sure. And that's

43:06a different topic than the intergenerational trauma issue. Those are separate issues. Within an individual's lifespan, there seems to be genes that influence general sensitivity versus orchid dandelion hypothesis. So there are genes that influence you to be the kind of person who's sensitive to everything, for better and worse. And then there are some people who seem to have a combination of genes that cause them to not be so affected by anything. And for those who have the genes that make them really sensitive to everything, the environment, the epigenetics really, really matters for those folks. Because there's some really cool studies with summer camps that takes these kids who are prone to a general sensitivity and may show neurotic-like traits and cause them to really face their fears and in a very supportive, encouraging environment.

44:11Rachel Gracioplane and Colin DeYoung did a great study about this, by the way, and really support them and activate the curiosity element of this. Because sensitivity, it can go either way. It can cause you to avoid the world, but it can also, sensitivity doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing or a way of holding you back in life. If you're in a supportive environment where you learn early enough that you can take that feeling of fear and anxiety and still act, it actually gives you a sense of great resiliency and it gives you a greater sense of curiosity so they found that they had that those kids had the highest by the end of the summer camp they had higher curiosity scores and openness to experience than anyone else in the camp but unfortunately most people listening to this podcast are not going to be children yeah yeah yeah yeah try to

45:01be hopeful realistic we're being realistic and hopeful yeah yeah and both both both yeah um it is true. The other way around is true as well. And it's, it's a real, it's a real shame. I mean, it matters a lot what kind of partners you choose. Do you have sensitive, do you have partners who are sensitive to your triggers? Do you have partners who are going to gaslight you, abuse you, you know, especially, you know, if you have a genome that makes you super sensitive to that sort of thing. It is interesting though. There are some people with these genes that don't, make them just rock solid, like stoic, regardless of like whatever's thrown at them. That's interesting. You know, there's like a genetic peculiar towards that as well. You know, I don't know, maybe David Goggins has those genes or maybe he developed it. Maybe he was the other way

45:51and he developed it. Who knows? But it is interesting. So yes, so of course we should have compassion as well for all the different ways epigenetics happen. But I don't think it means that there's no hope. I mean, like you said, it makes it harder, especially in childhood. I bring up childhood because in adulthood, if these things happen, you're really influenced a lot by these sensitive periods in your life when your brain is still developing, when your prefrontal cortex is developing, and you're coming up with cognitive strategies to overcome things and learn things. But I do think you can learn these strategies at any point in your life to a certain extent right okay what's the research on highly sensitive people I literally didn't even know that this was a thing I thought it was really I thought it would just be like a colloquial term

46:40oh yeah he's very sensitive but highly sensitive people is a I mean tell me what it is explain it yeah thanks for the opportunity and we should also talk about the link between masculinity and being an HSP because I think a lot of men score high in this trait and feel shamed of it because they feel like societal expectations say that they're a sissy boy or something just because they score high in these traits. But being a highly sensitive person is the combination of two traits, neuroticism that we talked a little bit about, which is being fearful, having a lot of anxiety, but also people who are highly sensitive also score very high in openness to experience, appreciation of beauty and excellence. And what you often find is that they're so open to so many, so much input in the world that they get overwhelmed quickly and then they need to retreat.

47:27so there's a constant push and pull between a full engagement a full um engagement in the world and all its splendor in all of its splendor and an avoidance because one becomes overwhelmed with all the input that's coming in that's really all it means you know um uh some people make more of it than it is um i saw a post an interview with kanye west where he said he's very misunderstood he's really just a highly sensitive introvert um and then um i i made the argument you it's actually possible to be a highly sensitive asshole there's no contradiction in that in in that right going to the highly sensitive people thing because i get the sense that this sort of show is going to be very heavily trafficked by people who lie somewhere on that spectrum you know they're introspective, they reflect, they do self-work, they consider whether or not this is the best

48:32use of their time, they want to be better, they're probably plagued with quite a lot of self-doubt, maybe they're dealing with a little bit of low self-esteem, they worry about what other people think of them, they care deeply about other people's opinions probably too much. All of that stuff doesn't sound very good. What are the advantages? How can people transform high sensitivity into a strength? Yeah, I'm really glad you asked that question because I think a lot of people can view these things as negatives. But contextually speaking, it is very conducive to creativity to be able to see the nuances in things, to be able to see, to have such an open mind where you're able to make connections between things that most people aren't seeing. A big part of my PhD dissertation was investigating the trait reduced latent inhibition

49:20and its correlation with creative thinking. People who have a reduced latent inhibition, I actually did this research with Jordan Peterson, believe it or not, back before he was famous. We published papers on this. But a reduced late inhibition means that your filter is down where you don't see things as necessarily irrelevant to the current goal that you have. So there are people who, when they have a goal, they're so narrow-minded and single-focused about it that they ignore everything else around them that doesn't seem obviously relevant to their goal. but we found that really creative people especially in the arts and uh actually the paper i published jordan looks at the difference between scientific creativity and artistic creativity we found that people particularly in the arts um have um this reduced latent

50:05inhibition where they actually at an unconscious level let in a lot more information um than that that uh they're for some reason they're they're they're uh salience brain network is not tagging this incoming input as irrelevant. So they're able to entertain it. And they also have the working memory capacity to entertain it. Shelley Carson also did some really great research showing that having a reduced lane inhibition plus an enhanced working memory capacity is kind of like the ideal state of being for creativity. You can handle this influx of information and sort out what's relevant and what isn't at the conscious level, whereas most people filter out at the subconscious level. I imagine if you get this wrong, you get perilously close to attention deficit disorder as well. And schizophrenia. In the most extreme versions, this is what you

50:55see in mental illness. We put people in mental institutions for having too extreme version of this. But for people who can have a moderate version of it, it seems to be the most conducive towards creative thinking. In other news, you might have heard me say that hold luggage is a SIOP, meant to keep you poor and late. And while that's true, it turns out that when a brand puts hundreds of hours into design and organization and durability, suddenly checking a bag doesn't feel quite so much like a trap. It actually feels like an upgrade, which is what Nomadic's done with their new method check-in luggage. It's been designed from the wheels up to be lighter, stronger, and hold more. It's got best-in-class materials, 360-degree silent glide wheels, patent pending micro welding technology and integrated TSA locks. Basically you can pack

51:42for between one and two weeks of clothes. It's got a full perimeter expansion for even more space and it's lighter so no more panic attacks every time that you wear your bag and their new carry-on can hold up to 20% more than other carry-ons which means you can fit nearly a week's worth of clothing without checking a bag and they'll last you a lifetime with a lifetime guarantee plus there's a 30-day money-back guarantee. So you can buy your new luggage, try it out for a month. If you don't like it, they'll give you your money back. Right now, you can get a 20% discount to see everything I use and recommend by going to the link in the description below or heading to nomadic.com slash modern wisdom. That's nomadic.com slash modern wisdom. Right. What other advantages? I also think that social sensitivity. I think being able to be in a conversation and feel what

52:30another person is feeling or take in a lot of information, even nonverbal cues, not be blind to them, can be very valuable. It can help make you a more caring human in a lot of ways. So we have the creativity, we have the sort of social aspects. I think also just appreciating life, being able to see beauty where other people don't see beauty could be a big part of it as well. You do tend to find, they actually have separated, I talk about this study in some of my articles, but they separate the appreciation of beauty and excellence part from the anxiety part. And I find that if you separate that part of the high sensitivity, it's actually correlated with much higher levels of happiness and well-being, whereas the anxiety part is correlated with lower levels of anxiety and well-being. so i think there are good things we can take from being a highly sensitive person and we can try to

53:25manage the other parts great lead in there too if actually first off how can you tell if you're one of these people how can people we don't want to get self-fucking diagnosing but uh you know what i mean i don't i don't go down that rabbit hole but how can people tell if they're highly sensitive and then on top of that if this is you if this sounds like you what are the challenges that people should be aware of what are the areas that if you can just get control of this and this and this your quality of life is likely you're really able to unlock the advantages of being more highly sensitive do you think you do you think you might be a highly sensitive person i think i am uh yeah yeah i based on what i've read given the fact that i've known about this concept for about two days uh i would identify with a lot of those things um i had a huge genetic test done at the back end of

54:19last year and all of the alleles that came back that were interesting from a behavioral perspective would predispose me to to this stuff very dopamine epinephrine norepinephrine um sometimes struggles with uh serotonin very goal-driven uh may struggle to come back to emotional baseline after a perturbment clears adrenaline slowly uh like it's dude it's fucking wild like when you luck it yeah i i think this is really important for people like you to admit that um i was in a movie recently called sensitive men rising uh starring um me and a lot of smart set and luke goss do you know who luke goss is the actor no google him luke g-o-s-s he reminds me of you a little bit um okay he he's um you know he's he's very uh buff very good looking he's bald yeah well testosterone is correlated with baldness but okay but but look you know he's he's a he's a

55:25he's a great actor but he really talks in this movie about how he thinks he's a highly sensitive person and how he feels like there should be there shouldn't be this stigma about manly looking men saying that they're highly sensitive people and i really agree with that i agree with that completely and i think you know we need more people like you and luke and and me i've been hitting the gym um making no i'm being cheeky but we really we really need to to give more men the memo that it's not it's not a negative doesn't make you a sissy you know well dude look at what is it that drives people to do the things that they do to their career or to their body or to their mind or to their net worth or to their ability to communicate or these things like a lot of it is a a need for control safety validation uh desire for respect uh a sense of something that

56:22was missing when you were a child and yeah certainly for me i was pretty lonely pretty bullied in school uh pretty unpopular and really you were bullied yeah for what yeah i was small in school i was a late bloomer uh i spoke differently i don't have the accent of the place that i'm from even though i'm you know the same working class scum that everybody else was uh the town that i'm in uh didn't appreciate the fact that uh i spoke differently that i used long words like my obsession with stupid vocabulary has kind of existed since i was like were you were you gifted were you in gifted education yeah you strike me as also didn't didn't uh help i think from the school that i went to maybe i think my year group would have had 200 200 kids in 250 so it's a big school and i think maybe one or two other people went to college

57:21so sixth form continued into high school only maybe one or two other people and of that maybe those one or two other people also went to university. So it was such a low rate of people going on to higher education. Maybe the college number was wrong, but the university number was almost definitely correct. I think I know one other person from 250 in the school I went to for five years that went on university. So anyway, I get to university and I start being able to lift weights and I get this job that's kind of socially impactful, running nightclubs or helping to run nightclubs at that stage. And I realized, wow, if I become successful, then the world needs me in a way that it's never really needed me before. It seems like it respects me. I get validation. I get positive reinforcement. I've got friends. I've got people that seem like they've got my back. I

58:10don't even know what that feels like. And all the while you're kind of building up this version of you outside of you, which is competent and successful and looking increasingly masculine in as you're able to gain muscle and go to the gym and you're diligent with these things. And you go to uni and you do one degree and you do two degrees and then you finish and then you build this business and you, you know, the classic insecure overachiever mindset is someone who tries to fill an internal void with external accolades. And yeah, I mean, I know some of my favorite people are highly sensitive super chads. Chris Bumstead. Chris Bumstead is one of these guys like regularly cries on camera, weeps on the floor of his bathroom because of the stress and the buildup to his event, but is a six time world champion in bodybuilding and maybe the greatest

58:59sort of bodybuilder of our era. Alex Hormozy, another guy who is unbelievably introspective, but also jacked out of his mind, literally looks like a caveman. And these are the people that I resonate with a lot because I think I see a lot of myself in them too. And, you know, there is a, there is kind of an inverse of pretty privilege for men there's like masculine disprivilege in a way where if you present as somebody that's got it all together well you look healthy and you're all right looking and you seem pretty muscular and people seem like they like you or whatever what the fuck are you whining about like why do you find things hard why have you got a problem with this like you know do you not see that person over there look at them they're only five foot seven look at how many problems they've got in their life. He's like, yeah, I get that, dude. But

59:52he sees something bad happen and he doesn't even fucking notice it. Or he had friends throughout all of his upbringing. So you have this inverse pretty privilege where it's the same whenever anybody goes to the doctors in the UK, any of my friends that I used to train with in the gym because it was a nationalized health service. If you walked in as a well person trying to get fit, the doctor looked at you and went, dude, there's five people in the waiting room who are overweight. They've got angina. They've got heart palpitations. One of them is going to lose a foot due to their diabetes. Like I don't care about the fact that you slightly tweaked your back doing CrossFit getting from well to fit is not my job. Getting from sick to well is. And you kind of end up with this same situation that if you present as somebody that's got it all together, if you start

60:38complaining about the challenges that you face, or you start saying, you know, sometimes I get a bit self-doubt or this, this thing's hard, or I can't get over this stuff from my past or blah, blah, blah. People go, Oh, like, how dare you? And it almost feels, I get a sense that there's a bit of an ick around that too, which is look at how broken this man must be in order for him to not feel internally the way he presents externally, given that he presents externally in an elite manner and his internal state does not comport with that. God, I hate that bias. You know, we really need to tell everyone that suffering is not a competition. And you really see all these hierarchies being created that these groups are inherently suffering, these groups are not inherently suffering. I'm not woke. Maybe this might be a surprise to you. I'm not anti-woke

61:34either, but I really believe in humanism and treating all people with dignity, respect, and listening to everyone's story, regardless of how they present themselves. I do think in a big way, we need more people like you really saying that you're a highly sensitive person. So we don't stigmatize the trait high sensitivity because it really can be a beautiful, beautiful thing. And I'm sure it motivates you and is a big reason why you're good at what you do. You ask thoughtful questions. You're good at integrating lots of things that other people are not integrating. i've noticed that in this interview um so you know you're a good integrator well i it's definitely deep it's definitely a high resolution way to view the world um but it can cause you to move slowly because you don't make rash i don't make very rash decisions i sort of think through things very

62:28carefully i tend to move very conservatively uh i have sort of massive loss aversion fucking huge loss aversion, huge fear of regret. And, you know, this is why the question that kind of got us onto this was, if you're someone who resonates with this highly sensitive person archetype, what are the things that you need to get under control to unlock well-being in your life as much as possible? Well, in my book, the biggest thing I say is don't be a victim of your HSP. don't create a victim mindset around being a highly sensitive person you see a lot of people who are HSPs they literally see it as the core of their victim identity so they expect people to tiptoe around them oh I feel things so very deeply please be careful with me blah blah blah and you see it there's always one person who's like I'm triggered and it's like okay really take responsibility

63:29for your HSP-ness and don't expect everyone to cater to that one aspect of your being. Because I find that very disempowering. You empower your HSP-ness when you lead with it. Scott, I can't let you continue to say the sentence HSP-ness. I just literally said HSP-ness. yeah highly sensitive personness yeah is this an outtake you know no no no this is a this is a keep intake yeah um being a highly sensitive person you know it's like anything else any other aspect of your identity are you going to make it the core of your victim identity or are you going to harness it in the service of growth and becoming a better person? And I think you can ask that about any aspect of your personality, no matter what it is, your extroversion, your introversion, your conscientiousness, you know, all these things can have trade-offs. People who

64:36are too conscientious, like too gritty, there's a dark side to grit, right? You know, if you're a workaholic, that could be part of your victim identity is that you work too hard. You could make anything the core of your victim identity. And I don't want people to make anything the core of their victim identity. I want them to not see themselves as that's the thing that's holding them back from the rest of their personality structure, but as the thing that enables the rest of their personality structure. Okay. How do people become victims of their emotions? Yeah. Yeah. So when a lot of people think about becoming a victim in general, they think about all the ways they're a victim to the external world. And the twist in my book is that part one are five ways that we're actually a victim to ourselves. It has nothing to do with the outside

65:27world. We can become a victim to our emotions when we take our emotions as facts. We don't just treat them as signposts, but we take them seriously, so seriously that we act immediately on whatever we're feeling. And we are quick to label, to find a label for whatever it is that we're feeling, as opposed to just checking in on the experience itself. So that's a big way that we become victim to our emotions. And what are the emotions that people typically fall victim to? Anxiety is a big one. Fear. Fear is a huge one. Fear holds us back from so many things in our life and that's why in that chapter i talked about the act approach which i'm a big fan of um steven have you had steven hayes on your podcast ever uh no who's that he's the founder of the act approach to psychotherapy which is a really brilliant form of psychotherapy

66:25that allows you to act in line with your values no matter how you're feeling about about the situation um in the moment maybe you don't feel like it maybe you wake up like i want to go to I want to lose weight, but I won't feel it going to the gym today. And you really are able to regulate your emotions in a way where you still end up in the gym, you know, really thinking more about what you want to get out in the longterm, as opposed to what may be holding you back in the short term. So I think the ACT approach is a really, uh, a really great way forward. Right. Okay. I just started the ACT journal. It's the guys from, uh, is it psychologists off the clock oh yeah yeah yeah it's the the two the two ladies you do you do you do follow the uh psychology mean psychology podcast i wrote this i'm i'm in where do you think where do you think

67:16that i get any of the stuff that i talk about from i'm not doing fucking original research i'm going on to psychology today i'm going on to the psychology podcast i'm going to psychology soft the clock i'm reading rob henderson's sub stack i'm listening to jonathan height and then i'm shamelessly repurposing it as my own ideas uh with with minimal credit it's pretty cool that you do that you care about that and that you admit that you do that but you also do you are interested in synthesizing so maybe you're not giving yourself enough credit yeah yeah that's my highly sensitive person that's coming up uh okay so one of the things we've talked about a little bit and i imagine that this is this plays a big role when it comes to the emotion side of victimhoodness the role of internally generated safety self-regulation um you know if we're not saying

68:07if you're saying well hey you can be tyrannized by your own internal state as well as you feel like you're being traumatized by your own external state what's the role of safety internally generated self-regulation stuff like that well first of all i wanted to say you asked me where can people find out if they're an hsp and i just want to see hsperson.com uh lean aaron has a scale that you can take some self-tests. So I wanted to say that. This question you asked, I was wondering if you could ask it one more time so I can really fully process it. Safety, feeling a sense of internal safety, is that it? Yeah, what's the role of internally generated safety? I just get, I get the sense that when it comes to emotions, what people are struggling with is feeling out of control, feeling unsafe. I don't, I just, like, this feels like it's beyond me

68:57and I don't have the capacity to deal with whatever these emotions are, which to me suggests you need self-regulation. Yeah. Well, I think that in general, we have much deeper reservoirs of resiliency than we realize, and we don't give ourselves the chance to test our resiliency muscles because we're too quick to constantly avoid things that we fear. So first of all, I do think that's very important. I also think that a lot of young people didn't get the memo that you don't have to feel happy all the time. A lot of young people, the second they feel unsafe, they avoid at all costs what could happen. And of course, we want to be safe, but don't always avoid the feeling of feeling unsafe. A lot of people feel unsafe around ideas, around words. That's become a thing in the younger generation, as Jonathan Haidt and Greg Lukianov talk a lot about in Coddling of the American

69:59Mind. A lot of people feel unsafe with ideas, with people that don't agree with them. They feel unsafe. And I don't think that's the way forward in life. That's not the way you challenge yourself. That's not the way you learn and grow and encounter other perspectives. Also experiences that get you out of your comfort zone are sometimes the most profound wonderful experiences in humanity imagine if every time you start a new relationship you you start to you know you have one fight you know with the person like and then you just give up you know um you're you're gonna have a long stream of unfulfilled relationships how uh how can people cultivate better psychological flexibility in moments moments of deep emotional pain discomfort stuff like that that is the term that is the the psychological term that's used in the act

70:55approach that's because i'm reading the act journal scott that's because i'm that's so cool well i'm impressed i thought it was because you read chapter four of my book i was all about because of both it's been reinforced by you um that's so cool um i'm impressed um yeah i mean there is no protocol for this you know there's no like you have to first of all check in with your own experience and try your best to not label it try your best to um create a distance from what you're feeling and your higher values and where you want to move to um you know let's say you know you're starving and you know that there's something really sweet and fatty waiting for you in the fridge. All you have to do is open up the fridge and get it and move toward it. What you do is you check in with, well, what actually, you don't check in with what are my feelings right

71:54now. You check in with, well, what are my higher values? That's what you check in with, your higher values. I want to lose weight. I want to not be the kind of person that immediately opens up that fridge every time i'm hungry and picks out the most unhealthiest thing i have in the fridge check in with all that first um and let the emotions and the desires and those quick feelings subside but be with them don't label them i imagine there's a correlation or a relationship between self-esteem and victimhood as well big one a big one with low self-esteem well actually there's no such thing as low self-esteem. This is interesting. On psychological surveys, you very rare will ever meet a human that says they have zero self-esteem. When you ask them to rate on a scale of one to seven, how much self-esteem do they have? It's usually a bimodal distribution.

72:50So you usually see a lot of six and sevens, the people with the high self-esteem are clear. But then the second type of person is usually it's in the middle somewhere, so that it's unclear. So it's an uncertain self-esteem. Usually what we call a low self-esteem is really an uncertain self-esteem. The person is constantly looking outward. They don't have a good inner compass of what they think they should be. And also from an evolutionary point of view, it's important to recognize there are different domains of self-esteem that evolved, that are very separate from each other. You can have very high self-esteem for your work and have very low self-esteem for your mate value um they can be very different things so i think there's don't domain specifically evolved self-esteem as well and there's some really great evolutionary psychology papers

73:43around that that i cite in my book right so the issue i imagine with low self-esteem is that your sort of robustness to being able to deal with insults both internally and externally generated, you're going to take them more personally. Your base is less resilient in that way. Yeah, absolutely. Vulnerable narcissism, which I talked about earlier, is very strongly correlated with this uncertain sense of self. The more that you can have an internal sense of who you are and what you want and be clear on your values, the less your self-esteem is going to make a difference at all. You don't want to be obsessed with your self-esteem. You don't want to be constantly in pursuit of high self-esteem. You don't want that to be your primary goal either. So that's why it's really important to get right with your own inner compass of what you want out

74:50of this life and what your actual real felt interests are and listen to them. I think a lot in life we get values from our society. We get values from others and we want to belong. So we care so much about belonging to a certain group that we adopt all their values, even if it doesn't really suit us individually. How do you come to think about acknowledging past hurts and hardships while not identifying with it? It seems like on one end of the spectrum, you've got denial and on the other end of the spectrum, you've got identification. Like this didn't happen to me. I'm going to completely ignore it. And this is the most important thing in my entire life and totally chooses my direction moving forward. How do you come to think about this tension? What's the optimal point? Well, yeah. How do you acknowledge the fact that you've been through tough stuff

75:47while not identifying with it? Why not making it your entire sense of self? I think that's why we need to harness an empowerment mindset. We've talked so much on this podcast today about the victim mindset, but my call is for everyone to adopt an empowerment mindset where you play yes and, you know, I really love improv, like yes and the game where you say, yes, I've had something terrible happen to me and I got this. And it is a shame. I see so much in our society of us just stopping with the so much has happened to me. And I don't see the end part of that, which is, and I have the deep reservoirs of resiliency to move forward with my life with meaning and purpose. Both things can be true at the same time. We don't need to neglect or downplay terrible things that have happened to someone else or that happened to

76:41ourselves. That's love, is being able to acknowledge and validate. People just want to be validated. Well, no, they don't just want to be validated. People want to be validated, but they don't just want to be validated. They want to be validated for what they've been through, but they also want people to believe in them that they can rise above it. Scott, I appreciate the heck out of you, man. Let's not wait five years before we bring you back on. Where should people go? They want to keep up to date with all the stuff you're doing. Thank you. And likewise, by the way, I really respect the hell out of you, man. Yeah, my website is scottbarrocoffman.com. I have lots of stuff on there. You can buy Rise Above and hopefully any bookstore or online bookstore. And I have the psychology podcast yeah damn right i appreciate you man until next time until next time