Dan Carlin

00:01three two one yes Dan Carlin we're live what's up buddy back again always a pleasure my friend deja vu all the time you to me are like this guy that's working on this NeverEnding project that occasionally you release these chunks of these NeverEnding projects but I look at your podcast as like this great work this long NeverEnding like dramatic interpretation of history that so exciting and interesting but when you you like we were talking before the podcast about podcasting but I don't think of what you do as anything remotely like what I do like he was like you do so many podcasts I'm like ke but there's nothing to it you start it you start talking and that's it you have like preparation and research and you know when you're doing hardcore history that's like a great work like you're doing like this thing that's Evergreen that's going to be passed down forever bit torrented the

01:01out of danieli belli had a great line to me because you know he does a History Podcast now too and he started off by doing just a a talk one like my Common Sense kind of is and he said the difference with the history one is you actually have to it actually has to make sense when you're done I mean the facts so that's a huge I mean I sit there like forever and I end up in my my wife's never heard it by the way and my kids don't understand why anybody would want to hear me talk and you know so so but when I come out of the the studio and you know it's like sweat pouring off and I'm trying to and then we'll look at it and it doesn't you'll listen and you hear a mistake and you'll have to repair the mistake and you know when you're just doing a a when I'm talking on the political podcast and we make a mistake I'll say afterwards on Twitter oh I got that wrong on the history one like you

01:44said it's forever and so you really have to dot your eyes and cross your tees and all that kind of stuff it makes it a lot harder yeah when you're doing common sense you're essentially just sort of ranting about your thoughts on what's going on I that's a pretty good description yeah yeah when you do those and release him and you find out you made an error that is a pain in the ass right I I I I I recently blamed one on concussions or brain damage or something like that so yeah in reference to Hillary Clinton no I no I said uh I was talking about that stuff they throw at of airplanes to jam Radars and I called it Flash and of course it's chaff and all of course 10,000 military people go you know it's chaff and I go of course I know it's chaff I wouldn't have brought it up it's brain damage don't make fun of people who are injured you know so but on the

02:28history show you have to go okay I got to go recut that refix it I do a lot more editing than I used to yeah that's um yeah it's you're you're like I said like you have a podcast but then you also have this thing the hardcore podcasts are killing me by the way I'm going to at some point I'm going to have to just do like one podcast a year you know I just I am the slowest podcaster in the world I have one claim to F number one in time it takes to get a new show out but it's not the same see that's the problem with calling your thing a podcast it's an audio show it is at this point yeah evolved into that unintentionally but you have a podcast too I do that's getting longer and longer between shows too well it's got to be like when I listen to some of your podcasts like the one on Martin Luther and what was the name of that one the um prophets and of Doom yeah that one

03:17you're like I learned about Luther ISM from you like I didn't I didn't know got it right Joe let's but I think that's happening with a lot of people that like learning about certain aspects of of history from from you and from your stuff so that's a lot of responsibility a lot responsibility so it makes sense that you're spending this much time on them is what I think what happens is I think you know uh originally if you recall the shows if you go listen to the old shows they don't sound like the newer ones it's because I thought I was just going to talk about funky stuff in history and then people wrote and go I I don't really know the story can you tell more of the story and so you inadvertently start telling the story and then you go wait a I'm not qualified to tell the story and so it just yeah it's it's it's an interesting um it's an interesting the way it's evolved and

04:01it's also interesting I was you know I warn people when they go and buy the old shows I say you know the old shows aren't going to sound quite the same because they were good by 2007 podcasting standards but you know the standards of what we all do are so much higher than when we started doing them you know if you grade this on a curve go to iTunes and look at the stuff that's up there with you and compare it to the stuff that was up there 10 years ago I was competing with kids in dorm rooms 10 years ago now we're competing with m PR and I mean all the pro outfits yeah it is the sound quality for sure but also like podcast you get better at doing it you know you get better at the flow of the conversation you get better at like being in tune with the person that you're talking to or at least attempting to like that that's something for people that are listening when you try to

04:50consider like how a podcast is made one of the things we're doing is we're trying to express ourselves but we're also trying to monitor ourselves at the same time make sure you're not too overbearing or you're not talking too much or sometimes you have a point and you just oh my God I got to make this point but the other person is talking you don't know when to jump in but you also have to listen to the person who's talking so then you forget your point and you're like you know it's it's a weird juggling act cuz we're both doing it sort of freeballing we're both ad liing doing it live you know what's happening to me now I'm ashamed to say it but I'm starting to get that that thing I'm 50 now I turn to and I'm starting to get that you forget the name or you forget you know I like I compare it to a computer I have more stuff in my computer but the computer's slower than

05:32it used to be and so I'll have this point where I'll be talking and everything will be going good and then all of a sudden there'll be this really long pause when I can't think of what and and that's when we have to just you know if there is a Ben he has to cut out and just you know sandwich the two pieces together while I try to remember the name of the person I wanted to say or so I'm getting to the point now where I'm not sure I could go live anymore without these really long pauses where I forget what I was going to say or I forget the point I was making or the tangent I was on so 10 years from now this is going to be very interesting podcast well it's it's also it deals with the amount of hard drive space you have I think if you keep remembering things like there's things that I used to know so well just 10 15 years ago that I just have pushed aside because I

06:14haven't brought it up in a long time I haven't gone into that folder in my mind the Cobbs now yeah and if I went to try to pull it out now it's like no no no we're we're our space on the warehouse floor is filled bro there's no room for that and the bus speed isn't what it used to be yes the bus speed is not what it used to be but I I try to crank that up with this stuff I'm drinking I don't rub it in you're so much healthier than I am this is coffee this is not health I mean it's kind of healthy but it's really just speed where I come from coffee is health food so what Oregon Oregon's healthy as man yeah well there's a couple people that aren't so healthy in Oregon just you're in that mix I'm leading the charge do you like living up there in the Pacific Northwest you know I'm from here and and and coming back home is weird cuz I told my my wife recently I

07:01my kids are oregonians and I haven't gotten used to that fact it just seems weird to me and I told her I still feel like this Angelino up in Oregon but I've been there 20 years I don't know when you start feeling I mean you're from the east coast to do you feel like you're an Angelino or do you still think of yourself as a transplant I've been here for 22 years as long as I've been in organ so I've been here forever so you feel like this is home I've lived here more than I've lived anywhere in my life when you go home home when you go back to where you were from does it feel like coming home or does it feel foreign it feels weird um it used to make me insecure like I used to go uh like where my high school was and I would it would bring back the feelings of being in high school again like I when I was when I graduated from high school I would have nightmares that I didn't graduate and

07:47I'd have to go back I think that's pretty classic the algebra class you forgot that you didn't drop or whatever yeah and I felt like I had to go back like oh no I'm going to I'm going to have to drop out or I'm going to have to go back to school like The Dread of the and it wasn't like the school was so horrible it was really like the uncertainty of the future and life and the insecurity and the just the The Angst the Teen Angst of you know slowly realizing that we not even slowly realizing but becoming an adult and knowing that it's just a few years away that I'm going to be completely responsible for myself but I'm completely lost you know so this like this unbelievable pressure that comes with going from being a teenager to an it's really I mean say unbelievable pressure is nothing to compared to be like growing up a kid in La you know or or living in Somalia in the middle of you

08:38know all sorts of different crisises that are going on so it's really like the most privileged angst possible is home reasonably the same when you go back to the old so see cuz I come back here I told my mom I was reading this um I was reading this book written by uh if you remember uh uh William F Buckley the famous you know talk talk this his son wrote a book about you know his dad getting old and and getting ready to pass away and whatever and at one point his dad who was in Florida said he wanted to go home to die which I guess was Connecticut and he said dying in Florida was like contrary to Nature so he wanted to go home where everything was the same and I thought to myself if I went home you know to die home isn't anything like home was I drive through the places I'm from and it doesn't even you know it doesn't ring a bell anymore the placees if I wanted to go home to

09:24die I'd have to have a time machine you know cuz everything is so different if every for those don't know Los Angeles like every 15 years bulldozes itself and rebuilds itself and so I'm like three generations of LA bulldozing from where my time was and so I go on up and down these streets it looks like a foreign city to me now also the mass Exodus of people is never subsided a lot of them are in Oregon now just you know I mean we've got better restaurants and better theater and everything because of all the Californians that go there yeah but when I first moved up there if you had a California license plate that was like an invitation to have your car get keyed really yeah oh The Californians were not popular in Colorado either when I went to school there The Californians were not popular now I think probably ex Californians are like the majority so yeah that's the case with Boulder I

10:10remember when I was living in Boulder they said that a lot of people moved up right after the earthquake I lived in Boulder too four years yeah went to school there people are like check please soon as the ground started sh when were you in Boulder um seven years ago seven years ago I live there before the podcast before the podcast started you like it I was only there for a few months I was there for 4 months we planned on living there for a year and then maybe permanently but along the way my wife got pregnant and we were at 8,500 feet above sea level that's right yeah and it was just it's brutal it's they say that Colorado in general like around the Denver area has a very high rate of premature births and low birth weight because of the lack of oxygen I would never have thought I would have thought you'd have your kid born with like superhuman lungs be like one of

10:54those Sherpas you know in Tibet well I think if you live there and you grow up there probably like if you live there and grow up there like I was talking to an endurance Runner that lives there and he said it takes 3 years for your body to completely acclimate where you get all the benefits of training up there um but they have all the Olympic guys you do the bicycling and everything up there too just because of the altitude well yeah that's a big thing with uh any sort of athletic competition training that involves endurance is training at altitude it makes a big difference but I think if you live there your whole life your body's accustomed to it you're adapted to it it's probably fine for your kids cuz obviously a lot of people have kids in Colorado but I think that if you from sea level like here and then you go there it's quite a shock to your

11:35system like you try to go up a flight of stairs and you're like whoa I'm kind of it does remind you doesn't it yeah for sure and if you were at 80 something I mean that's that's higher than Boulder you must have been out in the mountains yeah we're in the mountains um yeah 85 8,500 feet above sea level wow it's uh but when you work out there man it's it's it's crazy the the the impact like if you're just standing around talking it seems normal like if you and I were having this conversation up there it wouldn't be any different but if you had to walk up a flight of stairs or climb a ladder or something like that all of a sudden you're like Jesus I age 30 years in 10 minutes but um anyway going back to my uh High School when uh go to my neighborhood where I grew up in it looks pretty much the same so it's it hasn't really blown up I I grew up in Newton Upper Falls Massachusetts which is a

12:23small like uh suburb of Boston so it's it's a small place it's always been small it's you go back there it's kind of similar like I went back to the house where I grew up uh like about a year and a half ago it's pretty much the same wow I'm jealous cuz I go to these websites that say you know the San Fernando Valley in the 1970s and look at pictures and it's it's nothing like it looks now you ever go to Jerry's Deli and look at those old pictures they have on the wall I do I have books actually and and this is funny as I get older I never cared about La history when I lived here but now that I'm getting nostalgic and stuff I buy all these old books with pictures of Magic Mountain when I was a kid and Disneyland when I was a kid and all those kind of things well it's fascinating cuz this area used to be ranches oh yeah oh and horse country and everything absolutely well I took my

13:07wife back to my high school recently and you know my high school's turned into like you know the Beverly Hills High School is what it's like and so she looks at me she goes oh I see how you were raised honey no it smelled like manure it was all dirt roads it was really it wasn't like that for me so she doesn't believe me yeah the pictures of Jerry's Deli on ventur up here they have these pictures from like the early 1900s these big giant high res ution photos and it's like wow just fields and stuff Rolling Hills yeah if you could look at on a time lapse just watch it all watch it all build you'd be like whoa what the my mom's got this view of the entire Valley and you look at it and it's full and you see those pictures from Jerry's Deli and it's empty and in basically whatever it is 70 years or something it's full yeah well the whole country if you really stop and think

13:52about I've been talking to people about that a lot lately because we've been sort of discussing how bizarre this uh election is been and how recent this country has existed how recent this recently this country was established I mean when you think about 1776 and you think about the rest of the world like this is an insanely new country oh in the west my my wife's uh grandfather died recently he was 94 and I said do you realize that two of your grandfather's lifespans and there's no non-natives here on the West Coast that's two long lifetimes yeah it's bizarre it's it's it's really interesting when you think about it that way how quick this gigantic thing and took over the world essentially I should correct that see I already heard Hardcore History error in that comment I should say in the Pacific Northwest because they'll say oh no Dam there were Spanish missions and see

14:45that's how you get in trouble yeah okay we go three generations three generations no the Spanish were here a long time ago but but up in the Pacific Northwest it wasn't like that there were you know cuz it's funny you can tell where the tide of of Spanish Conquest sort of broke because you you you stopped getting those Hispanic names for all the communities and all of a sudden you're like what happened to lahabra what happened to all those wonderful Spanish names and you're no longer in that now you're in I mean Russia actually owned a little bit of that territory once upon a time but now you're everything's a Native American name or or some name from some really early settler or Pioneer or something like that we were talking about how recently slavery existed in this country oh my God yes 1865 and you think about 1865 to 2016 is nothing well and then let's

15:33remember that you know you still had the Jim Crow laws and the segregation up until you and I were kids yeah my mom did a film in Florida in 1972 and I'm not talking about the apologies to Floridians out there but the Civilized part of Florida we were in the swamp it was a place called weaky watchi if you've ever been there the big draw is they have a live mermaid show that they try to get you to slow down for enough to eat at the local cafe or whatever and so we're in Wei watchi Florida and we took a picture when we left and the whole hotel staff was out there and it looks like something out of a Time Warp because you realize they like three or five years of you know it segregation's been gone that long I mean that's how recent this is although I realize the more I talk to young people even being 50 sounds like a long time ago but when you and I were kids that was the tail

16:20end of the time when if you were a black person in certain States in this country you couldn't stay in in a bunch of hotels yeah I mean that's that's that's really recent yeah it's really recent um I had this cop on from Baltimore Michael Wood and he was telling me about the laws that they had in Baltimore that they had a systematic they really had racism that was so a part of the the city that you couldn't sell houses in certain areas to black people you could Frank Robinson tells a story about being with the Baltimore Orioles and he says he got traded from the Cincinnati Red to the Baltimore Orioles and his wife was able to find a house really quickly until they realized it wasn't Brooks Robinson's wife who's a white guy it was Frank Robinson's wife and then all of a sudden the house disappeared right off you know two seconds later so but that's almost you know you don't know what to

17:11say about that because there's two kinds of racism there's the kind where the government is involved and the States involved like you said system you know institutionalized and then there's I'm a white home buyer whose neighbors you know I remember um There Was An All in the Family episode where Archie Bunker or one of the neighbors was going to sell to a black family and all the other white neighbors freaked out so that's not really like government racism that's like good oldfashioned one toone racism you know well they used to do this thing called block busting and it happened with my grandfather my grandfather lived in nework New Jersey and these uh Realtors would go door too and literally tell the homeowners black people are moving into the neighborhood you have to sell your home the property value is going to crash and people just they just started selling like crazy my

17:51grandfather stayed my grandfather's like I like black people get the off my lawn he was one of those guys so so they they left and the neighborhood changed first it became black then it became Puerto Rican and then before my grandfather died it had been like a weird mixture of ethnicities Dominicans and different people from different environments but it was a really fascinating place to live because there was extreme there was poverty and then there was uh a lot of crime and stuff like the next door neighbor when my grandfather lived there is a kid who was selling crack and they battering rammed his front door he had it all reinforced and everything had an Audi in the driveway like the whole deal he was just selling drugs and they you know broke down his doorway and arrested him and everything it was a pretty dramatic moment but the rest of it was like when

18:42you look at like a bad neighborhood it's not like you go down the street and it's like a war zone guns are going off and people getting stabbed for the most part it's pretty friendly and Lively it's just when you're dealing with poor people in a crime ridden neighborhood you know it's just going to happen more often than it's going to happen in a place that's really nice but most of the time when you go outside it would be people playing music and there was kids playing in the street and there was people hanging out in their steps it was really interesting like to watch like his you know from the time I was a little kid remembering his NE you know his neighborhood to what it was before he died and it had just kept shifting over and over again where new new sort of uh lower income disenfranchised groups would move into the area and you know this I'm sure already but for the

19:29listener sake there's a whole theory on how if you look at boxing you can see you know who the wave of immigrants most recent was because boxing became a way for people to get out of the ghetto and so if you look at say um early 1900s up into the middle 1920s and 30s there were a lot of Jewish boxers because their parents had come over on the boat and they were first generation Italian boxers during the same period Irish boxers uh and then you move to eras where I mean poor African-Americans have always in boxing for because that for the same reason Hispanic boxers I mean I I saw a whole article once on America's immigration story as told through boxing and they would suggest that by the time the next Generation came along most of the time the parents had done well enough so that you know the kids didn't have to go into boxing but but it was an interesting story that you know and I

20:18think it was I think the article was entitled something like why don't you see any great Jewish boxers anymore and it went down the whole listen I didn't know there were Jewish boxers when I first when I oh Benny Leonard there were a lot of Jewish box rosenbom a lot of them yeah there was a there was a ton of them in the early days but it's always that it's always the immigrants yeah first generation people right yeah well what we've seen a lot now is Russians same same system though right you have you have newcomers who are trying to make their way into the system and boxing is the best thing they bring to the table you know it's it's also that you're growing up in these like really hard environments where fisted cuffs are much more common and people seek to train themselves to learn how to fight because they're dealing with conflict all the time absolutely right whereas a

21:00lot of kids in class you see you know America no bullying you know hey diversity and these kids are growing up and they don't there's no desire for the average middle class white kid to go into boxing it's just no desire those of us who've tried it I yeah I tried it once just for the fun of it and that was enough to you know kick me out of the eye didn't didn't look so fun anymore after I came home with the black guy and I thought that's just one day of practice you know these people who do it for a living that's every day of practice you only you you tried it for one day oh well you know I was I this is crazy to say now I've always been a huge fan of boxing cuz I grew up in an era where it was one of the great eras in boxing history and so you know you think long enough that you want to you want to see what it's like and I had a buddy that I worked with he was the one who

21:42always showed up with the black eye after the weekend was over he said I'll take him we'll fool around the first thing I learned that I didn't know is how much some of these guys just love it because you think who would like getting hit and I met one of these guys and he was like you don't understand the sport you just don't understand it but he put some gloves on we'll go in there well that's when you learn you know especially that I have a soft face that's that guy's an that's not how you're supposed to teach somebody about boxing you're not supposed to even think about sparring for a long time oh I think he was going to show me a lesson I think he was going to beat on you that's right yeah I had a buddy of mine do the same thing they know how to fight already and they put gloves on you you beat the out of you it was it was one punch Joe let's not make it

22:20yeah I that I learned my lesson pretty fast I'm a smart guy Joe took one punch you're like okay got through my defense with the first one and that was it well you need to learn stuff this is like boxing the way it really should be taught to someone if you really want someone to learn you should teach them the proper fundamentals on how to move their body and then you slowly teach them how to slowly hit things how about protective headgear for the new guy what about that that protective head gear does less than you think it do I know I've read that actually they're Al they're also removing it from Olympic competition now you ever see that you know I I had mentioned to my wife didn't they used to have boxing in the Olympics do they even show it anymore did they show it cuz I didn't see it you don't see it as much um that was so big when I was a kid I wonder what they decide to

23:03put on and how they decide it's got to be based on ratings right cuz like archery you see archery for like 30 seconds look the arrow flew through the air next you know and then gymnastics is always a big one people love watching people flip I told my wife there was this competition called a bathon where you ski and shoot and she said you're making that up I said no it's really an Olympic sport it is a weird sport right what a strange combination that's where the those Scandinavians just kick everybody's rear end yeah because they're all out there skiing and shooting all time that's exactly right that's rude there a lot of moose in that area that's a strange the the Olympics are strange in what is a medal and what is not like ballroom dancing is an Olympic what about synchronized swimming yeah that's an Olympic I'm not denigrating anybody if you're a

23:46professional synchronized out there okay I am I am I'll take the blame please do uh like curling you ever seen that one yeah I thought I always thought that was what they did on like cruises for old people but apparently it's a little different shuffle board it's very close there's no brooms involved in shuffle board there's no brooms and I don't know what curling you're you're trying to dink the other guy out of the way right trying to knock your little it's very complicated I never quite mastered the I was in New Finland I know how to say it now because people got mad at me cuz I said oh we calling it New Foundland I guess it's New Finland they probably cor correct me again I'm probably it up again I'm not even going to try but I was making fun of curling and uh they went crazy they were so upset at me I was like come on folks those are not people to get get mad at you either

24:29they're Hardy Woods folk it's very cold yeah it's a different kind of different kind of life but what I don't know what what do they do to decide like what goes on the air must just be based on popularity right the Olympics I got to tell you if I'm the if I'm the network executive deciding what goes on the air that's what I'm going to base it on did you see all those videos of people getting robbed that were just walking down the street in Rio this in Rio yeah no but I go to a website sometimes when I'm bored and have nothing better to do that is just you know stuff that people upload you know just to blow your mind or say well that and half of them are from Brazil for some reason you know and they're always terrible you just go I know it's giving me a um an unusually wrong version of what Brazil is like but when they said the Olympics were going to be there I said you know half the

25:13videos on this CER from Rio so well it's it does have a History of Violence that's for sure it's a strange place and that's kind of the reverse of La in that La you you essentially have the expensive homes in the Hills and then the people that have the less expensive homes are on the bottom but in Rio it's the opposite the people in the bottom like near the ocean it's the really expensive homes and up in the hills with this amazing views are all the favelas so it's all these houses that don't have any Windows some of them have dirt floors and there's like extreme extreme poverty I know some of these communities they can't the police can't even go into right some of them are really hardcore very did you ever see city of God the uh movie no but I saw the preview does that count does not count but it's it makes boys in the hood look like Mary Poppins and it's based on life in the favellas

26:04like but really really based on it like these kind of actual scenarios actually do take place where young kids with guns form gangs and you know you're looking at like 10-year-old kids doesn't that almost seem to be like a law of nature though because you do see it everywhere in these when you go to the poor countries or poor parts of the US like you said uh you were talking about how the poor communities are are pretty much like the the the nicer communities in some ways I used to have to go down to Compton all the time when I worked in the news down here and Compton in the daytime looks just fine people are trying to keep their lawns mode they're out there working on their homes I mean everything it's when Darkness Falls that things can get a little weird on certain street corners and and whatnot but you know I remember going down there just thinking boy everybody here is really

26:49trying you know I mean they're really keeping up their homes and trying to make everything look nice and and at night time they're just victims a lot of the time you know they shut their doors and close their windows and try to stay out of what's going on outside it is weird that it's night like there's something happens to people when there's not as much people that sleep all day come out yeah I think so I used to be one of those people once upon a time but Compton like if you looked at a good neighborhood like how many people are getting by and how many people are it up you know in a great neighborhood maybe it's like a hundred people or getting buy and one guy's it up you like one issue out of a hundred but in competent it might be three and that's enough like that's enough to give the whole neighborhood a black ey it does you're right it doesn't take very many that's right yeah A

27:34friend of mine has a gym in Compton and I was telling we were we're headed there and I was like yeah it's in Compton my the guy I was going with was like Jesus we're going to Compton I was like it's a it's a nice area there's nothing wrong it's just a city just go there what is this Compton Cowboys I just Googled Compton and this story just came up from uh yesterday what the is this bunch of guys that ride C uh horses through Compton I guess it's is that even legal you could do that in La cuz uh like in New York they have to have a a device that hooks up to the horse so it doesn't you know have manure on the streets how do they get around that there this is hilarious Cowboys roping and riding right in the heart of Compton have found their hobby can tame some of the most dangerous neighborhoods I have a regular nine-to-five job but I'm a cowboy Hosley

28:18said good for him I'm in favor that but how you you're not a cowboy where do you keep the horse first of all there's no cows you're a horse boy where do you keep you're in no horses is that a backyard horse I mean where do you keep that must it must be well there's some I mean I know that like uh I've seen them in Burbank like Burbank there's sections of uh which is you know where NBC is and Jay Leno you st Tonight Show there's sections of that that are equestrian so you're allowed to have a a stable in your yard and people just ride horses down the street you see it all the time they us they used to have a place called pck Stables right outside of Burbank that was like that yeah they used to have an equestrian center down there when I was a kid 50 years ago or whatever it was yeah horse horse riding makes you a cowboy you're not a cowboy unless cows are involved is that is that

29:03the Rogan standard on that I just think that's a fact I just think that's a fact you're a horse boy well you call them Cowboys because they would Chase cows they would H them you know okay I'll go with you I just don't have the expertise to compete on that subject become they have the Compton posi what is it they have a actual Ranch called Richland Farms I was just looking it up try to find out like more pictures or what it really looks like you know I'll tell you how uneducated I I didn't know they had enough open property out there to look at that yeah wow so they have chickens and I'm impressed and these guys are doing little things with their horses with they're running them through routines good for them interesting very interesting yeah well you know what man when people find open spaces and spaces that are vacant and they start reclaiming them and occasionally good

29:51things come out of that and you know what I mean you know there's a lot of cities in the United States and in Europe and stuff that that have built Giant open spaces you know whether it's a Central Park in New York or anything like that it changes the whole feel of these Urban centers doesn't it to have to have big open pieces of territory in the midst of the urban sprawl I mean if that's what they've done good more power to them La needs more of that I think you're right and it keeps it from growing like one of the really smart things that Boulder's done is they buy up all the open space when lots are available all around Boulder they just buy it up the city buys it up and they just prevent people from building on it that's why it cost like $9,000 a month to have an apartment in Boulder yeah it's super expensive but you know I mean ultimately it's probably a good idea

30:33right oh yeah well from if from your own living purposes absolutely so I mean that's what I want I look in Oregon I can park anywhere I tell angelinos that and they're really the only people New Yorkers and angelinos understand when you say I can park anywhere dude and they just go oh really yeah my buddy Steve moved from New York he was living in Brooklyn and he moved to Seattle and he was like I should have been here a long time ago this amazing toally totally he's like traffic's nothing he's like people are complaining about traffic but they don't know yeah like it takes 10 minutes more to get where you're going that's it I know it and you know nowadays I mean in the old days if you and I wanted to work you had to live where the work was now I mean even the actors don't live here much anymore you know yeah well open space I think is a really smart thing because

31:17people left their own devices will really up anything they'll just build on top of and stack things up and stuff people in there and next thing you know the views gone everything's gone got a chicken ranch next to your house yeah it's well this one of the things that this country has that's really interesting is public land these gigantic national parks like Yellowstone and all these different places that you can go to they're mostly in the west though you know and that was U when that Sage Brush Rebellion type thing happened up in Oregon you know with the in the one area where they're still having trials about and everything the the what were there see 20 years ago I would have remembered their names right off the bat but there's a Wilderness thing up in Oregon we had that whole thing well I mean their complaint was that the federal government doesn't have big

32:00tracks of land in the eastern part of the country where things started they reverted that land back to the public but they had these huge swaths of land in the west because it was kind of a different government by the time they were out here in the west yeah I truthfully am kind of thankful they do because if they didn't it wouldn't be here anymore I mean that's the way I look at it it' just be gone yeah most likely that that whole land thing was really confusing for people they were trying to figure out what the hell is going on because if you unless you really dive into the story and try to find out who's angry at who and why is the government moving in on these people and what's what's happening cuz there was a few of these sort of Rancher type disputes with the government remember there was one in Nevada as well I actually can speak to this a little bit

32:42because when I was a talk radio host up there those people were actually a large part of any talk radio show audience and and they were a little different back in the day of say the Clinton Administration in the mid1 1990s but but the modern movement kind of grew out of that and if you understand the position of those people in those small towns those people essentially made a living in resource extraction so they didn't have the big factories that they had back east and Detroit and everything they logged or they mined or they did those kind of things and so when the government will decide for example we have a problem with the spotted owl so we're going to cut back on the logging the people in places like Portland where everybody's got a software job or some of they're like absolutely that's a wonderful thing but those devastated some of those communities and you know

33:27it's everything from the schools in those areas not getting a lot of tax dollars anymore or the problem they have in Oregon is a lot of those small communities all the young people are gone CU there's no jobs so the old people who have home stay there's no jobs because everybody was in logging and they get very resentful so when they wanted the public land turned over to private people because they were hoping the private people would start off the Mills again and people could work so in that sense I I felt like the the media really didn't really didn't look at that side of the story which is I'm not saying these people are right or wrong but understand that this wasn't a question of the government's got to get off of our L it was jobs and I think we can all understand jobs well what was going on in Oregon was cattle ranchers and public land and they didn't pay yeah

34:13theing yeah they didn't want to pay for public land now before I had ever like ventured into public land I didn't understand the whole cattle grazing thing but when I was in the first time I was in uh Montana we went uh we took a float down the the Missouri River we went down the uh where the Missouri braks are Montana's beautiful oh man it's amazing but one of the things I was like there's these cows everywhere like is this is public land right and uh my friend Steve had to sort of explain to me how they kind of lease the land they let cows graze this land and they do it at this like ridiculously low they made a lot of these laws in the late 1800s the same thing with the mining ones and the claims to that so they haven't updated a lot of those things um but the Nevada gu or excuse me the Oregon guys they didn't want to pay that was part of what was going on they didn't want to

35:02pay their bill to at least as far as it's been explained well no and and there's different parties involved so you have these ranchers who didn't want to do that and then you have a bunch of people in the community who were sympathetic not so much to that part but the fact that the ranchers were mad at the same people that they were mad at so so so that's why you would hear a lot of people speaking these things saying I'm not really you know on their side but we all generally have sympathy to the idea that we would like the federal government to stop telling us how many logs we can cut or those kind of things and that's a traditional American thing get the government off my back for whatever reason it is and there's points on both sides though unfortunately oh absolutely because when you look at like when you look at some place that's been clear-cut and you see like how much it's

35:49devastating devastating when you see a giant swath of land that used to be filled with old growth trees and they replant it with a single monocrop instead and you you know they always call it like they they want you to think it's like um growing tomatoes you know they always say that this is a renewable crop and yes and no and like you said the clearcuts are awful because you do think to yourself couldn't you take like every fifth tree or you know a lot of times private land owners will do a better job of it not always sometimes they'll just think my kid needs to go to college it's time to just level everything on this hill sometimes though their attitude is okay this is my view right I mean I look out I don't want to see a clearcut so I'll take care every third or fourth tree and and it becomes like a an extra bank account for some of them so well it's if you if your whole

36:34business is the logging business I can imagine like we were up in the Redwood Forest recently and we as we were driving up there you you pass these lumber yards there was this one lumber yard where it's just massive logs and massive amounts and they're just stacked up and you're looking at like in terms of the number of years of growth you're looking at when you're looking at this huge lumber yard filled with trees like how how many years of growth is that and how do you sustain it right I if this is how much you need today how do you make sure you have that much 15 20 years you know what they're doing right now is is the Canadians are logging a lot and in Russia in the places like below the the um the they have a forest line in Siberia and they're logging a lot there too I mean it's kind of like gold that grows for those people and so in one sense you find it hard to tell them not

37:23to because I'm doing just fine but you can't log and make money the other hand you know we all do kind of share this and so it's hard to figure out how to manage things you know for the greater good as they say that's the good point is that it's really the I mean it's no one's you could call it property but what it is is like we're all sharing the resources of the earth and what's going on in the Amazon right now and uh what happens uh when people move in and farm for cattle is one of the best arguments against factory farming and against supporting the meat industry pollutes rivers and all that kind of stuff devastating deforestation too at a ridiculously high rate that's a big part of what's going what's fueling the deforestation is they chop down all these trees so that they can make land for these cattle to graze on and you can see by the way how much money is

38:10involved cuz some of in some of those countries the people that campaign a lot of times they're indigenous people it gets violent and people die and you know I mean that's how much money we're talking about yeah they kill they were they killed some nun that was protesting uh against the logging she got murdered recently it's not that uncommon and and and you know everybody kind of knows this is you know you're taking I mean it's pretty brave when you think about what those people do because they get the threatening letters long before anything happens to them and then to keep doing it yeah I admire people like that whether or not I agree with the specific cause yeah I mean who knows if they're even getting letters you know they just might get bullets you know I mean if you start making a mess and making a lot of noise and making it problematic for the people that are

38:49earning a shitload of money chopping those trees down things can get real ugly they get real nasty I was in uh Mount rineer and that was the first time I ever saw like real clearcut areas and that's an interesting place because it rains so much you would think like it's a real fertile environment like whatever trees that they do have but when I was talking to one of the guys that was up there one of the cops that was um uh you know was like forest ranger type character uh he was saying that they do it but it takes like 20 years for these things to become trees again well and they use different growth trees for different things so you can grow the quick you know I always hear from the guys want to grow hemp and say well if they would just grow hemp it would make up but it would make up for some uses the old growth trees like if you go into some of these there are some Oregon

39:34hotels for example that are all built with old growth and you go in there and you see what old growth can do and you say okay there are no other logs that you could do this with you know it's just a it's and you see the band saws that they use to cut that stuff it's it's a whole different level of tree but the replacement time periods like 150 years or something for those kind of things yeah it's kind of crazy really think about it's totally unsustainable but you're right it looks amazing there's nothing like it there's a company called Urban Hardwoods and they're in Seattle I've heard of them and they make like tables and desks and stuff out of the most incredible looking wood they take like real wood like a real giant tree and they'll turn that giant tree they'll cut chunks out of it and turn into a table but it's got like the outside edge is like the natural

40:22edge of the tree I used to know a guy who was a big investor he's dead now but he would find Investments to go to go buy and he went and somehow he was so proud of this he got himself a piece of a coawood forest in Hawaii and he showed me the deed and the deed from the guy he bought it from had been signed by like King Kamehameha or something so he was bragging to me for years about this and then found out later Hawaii wouldn't let him cut any of it so he he bought it all on the premise that I had this valuable wood and but for environmental and Heritage reasons Hawaii wouldn't let him he was totally screwed wow well at least he got a cool Forest co co would gge yeah and hard and valuable and rare yeah don't they make like guitars out of I know they make pool cues out of they used to make ships out of it you know like like those old Wooden Ships beautiful yeah the different densities

41:14of trees and the different grains and patterns and when you look at actual like hardwood it's such a fascinating in I not invention but creation of nature like these the the variety of the Grain and the way they look it's really like a work of art and it's it's strange how it affects us visually like if you look at a piece of Redwood that's been polished and sanded and cut it's like you see the Grain in it's like wow that so pretty you know it's it's interesting how that affects us I'm wondering who's winning the pool for what they thought we would talk about today how many people had Hardwoods nobody they're right about hemp though as far as like construction material they make that stuff called hemp cre have you ever seen that it's like a product that they make with with hemp it's incred has incredible insulation values it's really difficult to light on

42:05fire it's it used to be used a lot up until about the 30s and 40s it was a pretty big crop for a lot of industrial uses everybody everybody who looks into it for five minutes knows that yeah well that's one of those things where Stoners love to sit down and talk to you about it you know man Henry Ford made the first car George Washington yeah dude George Washington grew pot bro Ben Franklin smoked pot yeah yeah they probably did it's good stuff hard to prove yeah well they definitely liked hemp you know they definitely were into hemp and they were definitely into using it as a commodity and a textile you know and you can go back and forth about that like the uh the dra yeah the first decoration one of the first drafts of the decoration of Independence was written on hemp and uh parachutes uh sales sales with they a lot of stuff we use in both world wars

42:52um for equipment was was and in fabric a lot of stuff like that even the term canvas comes from word cannabis cuz that's what it was made out of remember that actually yeah it's interesting how it's become illegal but that's another thing that's really fascinating about this time it's like slowly in your state Washington State Colorado you're starting to see so much money coming in from it being legal that it's going to trickle down into other states it's almost kind of a great experiment isn't it and i' I've said before and I I might have even said on this show the very first time we got together I think we may have talked about you know what's going to happen because we have this Divergence between the states and the federal government and as you probably know only a couple of weeks ago the federal government decided to leave marijuana classified as a schedule one

43:35drug for the same reason they always did which is they say that the research doesn't show anything and then you find out well they're not really permitted to do the research so it's just catch 22 right so at some point either the feds are going to have to move toward the states or somebody's going to get into power that says enough of this dichotomy we're going to crack down I have no idea what that would look like it would look ugly you can't crack down now the the amount of money that Colorado is making has changed the the quality of life for so many people there their real estate values have gone up the drunk driving accidents have gone way down drunk driving arrests way down violent crime way down I mean it's really fascinating what's happened to Colorado but look at what the feds have already done in in in roundabout ways for example one of the things that they've said in some of

44:18these places is if you have a medical marijuana card you can't get pain medication uh uh prescribed to you if you have a medical marijuana car a judge just upheld didn't they that you that you can be denied a gun yeah um they don't deny people guns for drinking the only yes so the only reason that that works is because you have a disagreement between state and federal law and they're siding with the higher law which is the way the the law is supposed to work but at at what point at what point do we have such a of a division between the reality on the ground in these states and what federal law says that the rubber is going to meet the road somewhere I don't know who wins but there's going to be a moment where it you have a a rubber meets the road moment yeah and it's an interesting case with the the National Rifle Association too because the NRA which is always a

45:05cars prun and really trying to stop any laws that infringe upon the rights of people to you know uphold the Second Amendment but when you get to this pot thing they don't want to with the pot thing I think they did you know correct I may be wrong about this but I do believe that they did come out and F and say that you shouldn't be denying people's rights well they better I think well a l it's in their interest to it's in their interest to do that there's a lot of closet pot smokers out there cuz it's obviously The Stereotype has always been that it makes you lazy and it makes you dumb and it gives you brain damage and you forget things that's been shown time and time again to not be true I mean when you are high as you do forget things like when you're in the populations like that I remember reading a study once where they were studying population in Jamaica

45:51where a lot of these people who were 75 years old had been doing it their whole lives and didn't show any anything that would make you your your eyes bulge out your hair stand up I mean nothing seemed that out of the ordinary in terms of whether you're talking about cancer rates or any of these other things if there were something like that God it would be beating into our head right now all the proponents of pharmaceutical drugs and all the people that are making money off of marijuana remaining in this schedule one category which are pretty significant there's a lot of people that make money off of it the schedule one category is ridiculous I mean that's just crazy do you see what's going on in uh Arizon I tweeted about it I think yesterday these the people who were protesting against marijuana being legalized in Arizona the people are spending the most money we're talking

46:39hundreds of thousands of dollars to try to keep marijuana illegal in Arizona are directly tied to pharmaceutical drugs directly tied to pain pills specifically the stuff that killed Prince what's that stuff called Fen fenel yeah fenel well Arizona is a weird State too they some very conservative people this is the alcohol industry before that there was one so it's the alcohol industry and then there's also the um the fentel industry might be a little bit earlier just see if you scroll down a little bit further see if you can find it but it's just bizarre that we allow that stuff and it's so transparent today as opposed to this stuff all went on behind the scenes a hundred years ago which of course is why marijuana got made illegal there fenel maker donates big to campaign opposing pot legalization that's fascina yeah there you go $500,000 towards defeating a ballot

47:30initiative that would make recreational use of marijuana legal under Arizona law you're just criminals you're a bunch of crooks the the fact that you guys would spend that much money to stop a drug that has nothing to do with what you do but I would make the case and and this is pretty much what my political show has been about since the very beginning is that that's a fact a factor of the corruption Yeah in our system um when when it's a a pay-to-play system well I mean then that that's how this happens if you're going to impact somebody else's business by legalizing something else then the way you fight that is you go out there and you donate to the to the cause I mean in other words instead of the people getting what they want it's it's it's whomever donates the most and I remember Justice Scalia before he died was part of a ruling where he basically said that's not a a a bug it's

48:16a feature this is the way the system is supposed to work you know money is is supposed to represent the views of people and if it's poor people they can bundle it all together and then if there's no money obviously there's not a lot of people who care and that was the theory but what it's really done is is mean if you don't have money flowing into Washington you don't count you're not at the table right so there's whole sectors of the American society that are essentially unrepresented because there's no money coming from them that's the real problem and wasn't this sort of structure the stru the government structure that sort of enforces that or or relies upon that it was kind of established before corporations were and and definitely established before corporations were allowed to act as an individual and donate insane amounts of money to campaigns the problem you know

49:03and you look at it you just you can see how it happened because you could see that that the people that gave a little money back in the days when you could only give this much money had a little influence so what do you want to do you want to influence them to let you give a little bit more and and slowly but surely you evolve into a system I mean I was talking to my wife about this the other day where we were talking about how it was never a good system but it was a fairer system back when I was was a kid in the 1970s because some of the money came from entities that represented people who were blue collar people so for example when unions were big uh private employee unions not the public employee unions that are so popular now so if you were a pipe fitter or a plumber or those people that had you know electricians had pretty powerful unions those people would

49:47bundle money and those Unions would give money to candidates that sort of compensated for the fact that you had corporate money or whatever in other directions in the 1980 when the Democrats started getting waxed regularly and where you know due to Reagan changing tax policies and whatever else we started to get some really wealthy people and the unions started getting less powerful all of a sudden you know there's Willie Sutton the bank robber was famously asked you know why do you rob banks and he says that's where the money is well in the 80s you know after 84 especially after Mondale got waxed by Reagan they that's when super deleg get started to they went and they looked and they said okay what do we need to compete because if you look at the long-term trends the people people that Republicans tend to get money from they're just getting more money the people that we tend to get

50:30money from are getting weaker and that's when that's the role Bill Clinton played in the Democratic Leadership Council where they basically said we can go and get money from those same sources so they did okay so fast forward to now everybody's taken money from those same sources and the people that are lower and middle class have no way to break into that game right so if you know Lawrence lesing the Harvard law professor did a great book called Republic lost where he pointed out how he went interviewed politicians who didn't even realize there was another side sometimes to the issue they were voting on cuz they hadn't heard from any money right so you almost you almost felt like a lot of these people were almost blameless because in their minds well nobody cares about this or I would have had some money coming in for that it's strange how the systems evolved but

51:15the one thing you can say for sure is you're not getting money from people who don't have money right and So eventually we get to this dichotomy where there a lot of people in this country right now what's that old line about taxation without representation a lot of people in this country not represented 100% And then also you have to think about how many people feel disenfranchised by the system and it doesn't seem like it's going to be fixed anytime soon because the amount of people that are contributing to these campaigns when you look at the percentage of human beings on this land mass is very small so the amount of people that have influence it's a very small amount of people that are affecting the lives of a vast majority of people and it becomes a very weird sort of a scenario when we can continue with the same representative government structure that we had back

52:00when it was impossible to communicate with people on the other side of the country like you had to send you know Morse code or a guy on a horse with a letter it was hard so that this is why they decided to have representative government in the first place you couldn't communicate with people now that you can it's like we we we really ultimately have to decide I think one day it is one person one vote like do we all as a mass as 300 million people get to decide like if 190 million people think one thing and the rest think another thing how does this all work out like how do how do we decide because right now we have delegates we have Representatives we have Senators we have all these different people that sort of buffer us from the actual decisions that are being made and I think as we as it becomes easier and easier to communicate and express your opinions

52:48and and give your thoughts on things the option of voting online and the option of voting directly for issues without representation seems more and more enticing to people yeah but you'd have to change the Constitution and and you know would that be a good idea it's old as it depends I'm reading a book right now that talks about our government actually operating sort of between the lines of the of the Constitution so there's room to maneuver and over time for understandable reasons like security and other things I mean the fact that nuclear bombs were invented changed everything that within those lines there's room to sort of expand what you can do but you do that generation after generation and then you look around and go how did we get you know from where we were in 1940 to where we are now it's almost inexplicable and and sometimes when I talk about reform you try to

53:36figure out how you can dial things back but we've come so far beyond any point you could dial it back too it becomes really hard to imagine it's like you have an old Mainframe computer that you've patched and patched and patched and the only way now to make any real reform is to throw the computer out and buy a new Mac and start from scratch and nobody can do that I mean you can't even figure out how to get that done yeah it's almost like we need an asteroid to take out the grid just come down and boom and wreck the whole thing just a big earthquake or Title Wave you have to be a big thing a big big thing that unfortunately kills a lot of people I know then the government will step in and say well you know we have to take care of all of you now security martial law people on the street cor or the government's dead or it hits them imagine how Sy like symbl Matic it would

54:24be symbolic it would be rather simpatic not even a word imagine how how amazing it would be like if that's the only place where an asteroid hit if it hit the Pentagon and the White House if like there two broken up chunks of Space Rock one slams into the Pentagon kills everyone they blame SL yeah the god of Terror the god of Terror yeah I mean that is that's really almost the only way something has to be catastrophic in order for them to try to reset and rebuild a completely new system and then people would have to agree they'd have to get to together and go okay are we going to go back to that thing that was written on hemp by people that wrote with feathers or are we going to like redo this we're going to figure this out from a modern perspective knowing what we know now about our ability to communicate and knowing what we know now about all the things that our F the

55:14founding fathers of this country did an amazing job of trying to protect from corruption you know trying to make sure that their their vision of what America could be that this experiment in self-government and then they put all these safeguards in play but there's no way they could have ever predicted how far technology would have taken us in the 200 plus years since they did that there's just no way they they they they they couldn't have any idea so now that we know where we are now and we can sort of kind of exra extrapolate where it's going to be in the next 50 100 years and maybe plan for the future the digital future that we're dealing with now and then we you know if that was the case we would have put in some some things that people would agree with in regards to like what the NSA got caught with you know what the the mass surveillance of the public let's talk about that for

56:04because I was just going to go there you know I was thinking not that long ago if you could if if they forc you because we all understand that that history is an evolution so so all of this is the result of of decades and decades and generations of generations of building stuff on top of other things but if you had to pick the time that was most transformative for all those things you were talking about you have to go back to the United States between 1947 and 1948 that's when Harry Truman and the government um passed these rules that made everything we talk about today the NSA the CIA all those things are developments from like National Security I mean nsse 68 is one of those big ones a bunch of these rules that created the the modern United States will call it the secret government that we know about today and you know if you go back in time you can certainly

56:56understand what they were thinking I mean you have to remember how crazy it was after the second world war and this feeling that the Soviet Union was this threat to the whole world and now you have nuclear weapons and can you really declare war if there's nuclear weapons that could be you know there's a whole bunch of things where you go hey I kind of get what was going on but it didn't take Harry Truman long you know after he left office to say I made a few mistakes including things like the CIA and whatnot but once you start those programs there's an autopilot that that happens and and they they develop a a momentum of their own so if you said today because I would make this case if you wanted to look at this the way my stepfather would he was a total profit and loss guy and you would look at something like the CIA you would say the CIA is a terrible failure they miss all

57:40the big things whether it's the fall of the Soviet Union you name it right the cia's got major failures and then you said you know all the things that they've done that were nefarious that they shouldn't have so if this were a private business you turn around and go well listen that's a lost thing right there you know let's take that division scrap it start over you can't do that in a government for some reason it's almost impossible to decide this whole area has been a failure so let's start over and that's the problem because I'm not sure you can reform things that are that are flawed at the seeds do you know what I mean yeah um and and the CIA is a perfect example but even the NSA I mean did you see that this week they're once again trying to slip a bill in that would allow the government without a warrant to track you know every website you go to and all these things how does

58:23this stuff get that far they're they're going to pach it to a totally unrelated bill so that you don't know about it again how do they get away with this most likely it's just justifying something they're already doing well and they're legitimately afraid there's there's stuff to be afraid of so I don't always you know you have to cut them a little slack but there's no weighing at all about the downside I mean it's almost like the only thing we pay attention to is the terror Side Of The Ledger not the fact that do you John McCain or Lindsey Graham do you really want the government knowing every web especially Lindsey Graham there's got to be some sites there that he really would not like the government to know about come on at least think about yourself you know so I I I don't know how you stop this Dynamic we're such a fearful people that that's what's going to kill

59:07us well we know what we've done to other people we know payback is probably likely that's and you know what that's what's really sad is I've always had this rose-colored view of us and I acknowledge that it's a myth but I always look at the myth of America as I call it the 1950s high school textbook view of America that to me is what I want to move towards so when they talk about creating a more perfect union that to me is the goal and anything that conflicts with that self-image to me is the problem so when you see sometimes how we really operate anything Dick Cheney does I'm I and I don't use the word evil so I'll use the word nefarious Dick Cheney is to me when you say what do you want to avoid in this country I want to avoid where Dick Cheney wants us to go because nothing conflicts with my 1950s mythological American textbook idea than what chainy wants us to be and

59:57when you look at some of the things we've done some of the things based on that 1947 1948 America which we thought okay we have to do everything to stop Global communism they're going to take over the country once you look at some of the things we did and you realize some of what we're dealing with today is blowback you don't know how to undo that I mean you almost think it's like permanent damage look at the way some in the Middle East see us I mean uh I'll I'll talk to people like I remember talking to Sam Harris about this and he was talking about well you have to see things this certain way and I said yes but that's not going to help you solve the problem how do you solve the problem if we've already if we've already soiled our bed so much that you don't know how to fix that you don't know how to go and say listen we're sorry about this can we start from scratch you can't do that in

60:35foreign affairs just like you can't do it with the Mainframe computer that is the government you know I can't figure out how to how to reverse course to a point where we can once again fix stuff right it's it's too damaged I think it just has to dry out slowly but surely like all the wounds of the past have to heal up and dry out and it just takes time how do you when still after you mean we' already made enough people mad at us so that they're after us well now we have to go protect ourselves by going and getting them so we perpetuate the cycle I I can't figure out how to jump off the merry-go round you know what I mean I don't think it moves that way I think we're trying to make a battleship move like a race car and I just think it takes a long time to shift course and when we're looking at these people that are in the Middle East that are opposing

61:18the us right now and angry and want to attack the us right now you're most likely never going to get to them you might get to their grandchildren and I think that might be the only way things slowly but surely settle down and that's the argument for the NSA and the CIA to continue to monitor things at a really kind of ridiculous and invasive level because there's so many people out there that hate us or hate the government hate the military and hate what's happened to them and so many Martyrs are created every time a drone that's where I was going to go how do you how do you how do you get that next Generation to not hate us when we're busy killing their parents cuz their parents want to kill us I mean that's the cycle and I can't figure out how to break the cycle right how how do you protect ourselves from their anti-American parents in a way that doesn't turn them against us too does

62:02that make sense it's a real definitely makes sense and the it's hard no one has a real logical answer to that I mean you talk to the Ron Paul supporters and they think we should just separate and don't police the world and take care of our own and just stay out are still people who want to kill us yeah yeah yeah and then you talk to the people that are you know in the dict chainy camp that are like you're out of your mind you're living in a a Dream movie world and the real world is dirty and nasty and we need all these people we need all these operatives we need people constantly monitoring these hot spots all around the world cuz like look what's going on in North Korea they're testing nuclear bombs now and you know what are we doing we're flying by we're we're making these threatening gestures where we're flying fighter jets around North Korea it's it's it's really spooky it's

62:55spooky because something can happen and we don't have anybody over there you know at least as far as I know I mean I don't know maybe we have some deep deep deep undercover CIA people working as North Korean soldiers but I'll tell you what upsets me though because we what we were just talking about getting off the merrygoround it means kind of not perpetuating the same mistakes we've made before but what drives me crazy about our system is that the people who make mistakes and I've always said you know you've forgiven people make mistakes you're going to make a mistake right you shouldn't be allowed to make another one though right we at the highest levels of government when you send people to war and we shouldn't have gone to war I'll cut you some slack but I don't want you then going on CNN and being the expert who tells us how to handle the next Crisis right because

63:38your track record sucks Dick Cheney's got a terrible track record we still listen to him he still gets to be a person who who moves the public debate and there's a lot of people like that you look at the John boltons there's a heck of a lot of these guys who are consistently and regularly wrong but we put them out there as though oh this is somebody you should listen to now on the show he's going to analyze how we should handle North Korea yeah but he was wrong as heck about Iraq and all these other things so we're going to listen to him on that next subject we don't make people who are wrong in this country pay the price which means you know if you're in a private if you're a doctor and you screw up a few surgeries and people who should not die die you're done you'll be out of business they will take your license you won't get to kill any more people in government you can continue to

64:21make these errors and you you be promoted you'll be in a position to make more more yeah that'll kill you over the Long Haul do you wonder like what what motivation does Dick Cheney have I mean he doesn't even have a heart they they took his heart out they stuck some cadav heart there listen it's a worldview but it's not a 1950s us high school textbook worldview right but I mean why is he doing it like what is his motivation for continuing to keep depends on who you ask sometimes it's money sometimes it's powerful friends I've talked to these people and they'll give you the old you don't know how the world Works speech right and and at that point you have to say to yourself okay listen I know the Constitution's just a piece of paper but but at some point there's a rubber meets the road that's going to be my word for today's Joe Rogan show be my fly in the

65:06ointment for today's Joe Rogan show but there's got to be a point where somebody has to sit down and say look we have a constitution that does this here's the way the world really works now either we're going to go back to one or we're going to discard one and completely embrace the other at this point we embrace the hypocrisy that we still live like this but the world's a difficult tough place so acting like that does that make sense yeah no no it does it definitely makes sense and that dichotomy is what makes so many Americans angry yeah yeah well it's it's amazing that we've limited the amount of attacks on American soil to 911 in Pearl Harbor well know you had the Orlando attack it depends on what you classify the an attack the Orlando attack was a crazy that lived in America I mean that was Lone Wolf stuff yeah was was that guy proven to be gay or is that

65:53like I don't know what that is I'm sure he's okay how about that but but but but that's a perfect example though of of of why this is so tough to defend yourself against because and this is the same thing by the way the the country has been worried about American radicals for decades I mean you go look at how we treated the 1960s leftist radicals that were putting bombs in the Pentagon and stuff like that I mean it always blows my mind to realize that if those guys were doing that today we might waterboard them at Guantanamo you know um so I think the domestic r idea has been something the government's been worried about since the the first Red Scare in the 1919 era and the anarchists in that whole era yeah and I think whenever you have a government whenever you have people that are in charge there's going to be people that oppose those people and they're going to try to

66:40go through some people that opposing them are going to go through legal channels and they're going to protest legally and they're going to organize and you know give speeches and other people are going to say look that doesn't work we're going to do this Guerilla style we're going to do this so now we come to the hack right that's we're see I argued in the last Common Sense program that that the hacks are kind of a chicken coming home to roost thing that when you know we deputize our representatives to keep some secrets from us because we all understand that there's going to be some of those but if you did that in a private business Joe if you work for a boss you're you're you're delivering pizzas at the pizza company and the boss says to you listen sometimes I have to have a little plausible deniability so if you have to stamp something top secret on your on

67:22your order form I won't look at it and we'll all be cool okay so one day you're out with prostitutes and drinking beer and you don't deliver your pizzas and you think if I put top secret on this the boss won't see it we'll be great I mean it's human nature that after a while you're going to start to classify stuff that really shouldn't be secret right yeah I would I and I said this in the last show I talked to an intelligence operative once who wouldn't tell me anything except I asked him a question once about if you had to guess what percentage of stuff is the stuff that Americans would agree should be kept secret he said about 10% I said what's the rest he said everything you can think of he said cover your own rear end corporate deal that a senator doesn't want his constituents to know about for 40 years because he'll get voted you know all the and it's it

68:06becomes a point where when you're keeping that much stuff from the American people that they have a right to know it seems to me inevitable that there will be literally leaks like you're trying to cover too much Dam with with too little concrete it's natural I think and some of these guys like William bny's the the one that everybody knows he said I went through every channel I was supped to go to and I ended up with officers pointing federal agents pointing machine guns at me as I came out of the shower so when when the system breaks down to the point where the whistleblowers go through the proper channels and they become the ones who get into trouble then you're asking for leaks and it's hard to say I feel sorry for you that they leaked that Vital Information but if you haven't been keeping nonvital information from us for so long that might not have happened and

68:49then you do get release of stuff that none of us thinks should be released that's the terrible problem and doesn't it seem like leaks are not just inevitable now but it's baked into the pie now yeah baked into it it seems like there's there's almost no way to keep stuff secret now when it if you are an operative at the Democratic or Republican parties how much would you want to bake it into the cake that you try to see that there'll be a leak against your opponents before the next election how much does that now become a part of your strategizing yeah yeah yeah for sure I'll put out a little stuff that I hacked on the DNC kind of attitude you know or whatever I listen and if and if the Russians are you know Vladimir Putin said that what's the problem shouldn't we just look American people should know this stuff so we release this information or somebody

69:34releases this information but if they only release information on one side have they influenced the election right so you have to be careful how that works too they have the ability to sort of set the tone of the discussion yeah I wonder what if they check the Republicans if they checked like what kind of crazy was said when they realized that Donald Trump was running away with it heard something that there had been a hack and I and it was like new news so I'm not up to speed but that there had been a hack of the RNC 2 did you see everybody's freaking out now over the fact and again we have to make the disclaimer that that the Russian hackers or whomever I there's Russian hackers who get mad at me when I say that whomever it was that did this that they've been known to alter stuff so you have to take it all with a greatest but but what came out I guess was a list and

70:20this is from the Democratic party's main list of donors right their internal documents which shows the top donors how much they gave and then what was given in return ambassadorships director of Homeland Security all that kind of stuff now here's the funky part that's as old almost as the Republic it was called the spoil system in the early 1800s right I win elections so all my buddies get jobs right everybody who supported me so there have been acts though ever since then the Hatch Act was one where they tried to limit that and both parties act like they don't do it anymore so when it comes out that they still do people freak out but here's the truth if the Democrats do it I'm sure the Republicans do it too I'd love to see a list from the last Republican Administration who their top donors were and you know all you have to do is look at who the ambassadors were and especially the

71:13ambassadors to good places right who's the ambassador to Bermuda who's the ambassador to London they the the the UK one is always a coveted position how much did that guy give and because it's always been the way it is there's a part of me that goes H what are you going to do but the other part of me goes that's the corruption you wish more Americans knew was built into the system right if you found out that the guy who's in charge of of making sure this country's safe and the Homeland Security Department got the job because he gave money to get the job how much less safe are we than if you gave it to the most qualified candidate it's a very important point and how many people are doing it for vanity positions just so they can say they are that ambassador to London I I just saw a way to reform Joe so all we have to do is get some really rich marijuana grower to

72:00give enough money so that he becomes the Department of Homeland Security director and you could get that corruption thing working in your favor that's actually possible with the amount of money they're making in Colorado you never know director of Homeland Security made all of his money growing weed that would be ridiculous and it comes full circle how much have you paid attention to all the controversy about the Clinton Foundation I have special relationship with the clintons you know I was in talk radio during that whole Administration and they're they're relatively unique people as a couple and they're very hard to describe and I always try to be fair you know I'm very into fair and seeing context and but let's be honest these are two people that you know here's the way I look at it if you're Hillary Clinton and they have been after you since before your husband was President

72:49you know in Arkansas they were after them right so you know how on you they're going to be wouldn't you stay so far away from any lines that nobody could ever come close to saying you were but they don't they both walk and straddle and that you know if you talk to people in Arkansas they just say that's the clintons they they walk the straddle the line and a lot of times they go you know in too much of One D why would you do that we talked about this with Anthony weer you and I a long time ago if you know that stuff's out there why would you go and run for office again it's the same thing with Clinton if you know you're the most watched man in the world why on Earth would you have an affair with a teenage intern who you know will not stay quiet about it it it it boggles the mind so if you're Hillary Clinton and you've got everyone trying to come up with dirt on

73:36you why would you do anything that was even suspicious and yet they still walk that line I don't get it well don't you think that first of all their patterns and their behavior and their attitudes towards things were established in the 1980s when the world was a much simpler place and you can get away with what happened in Mina Arkansas with all that craziness with you know the the dropping drugs out of airplanes and uh when when you know which is all part of that Narco series it's in in the Narco series I mean somebody was in on it I mean the the guy who got shot and killed who was about to testify for George Bush what the was his name um you're not thinking Vince Foster no no no the the the pilot that was the drug pilot I remember the story damn I remember the story though yeah so flying aess into yeah the backwood this obviously some people knew about this

74:31obviously the CIA was involved this guy was involved with some Cowboys in the CIA that were bringing drugs in from they were doing that during the Iran Contra thing in the 80s so it's not old news yeah no it's it's so somehow or another that was standard operational procedure at least on some level whether it's rogue rogue agents in the CIA or Rogue people in the government government or whoever was profiting on it and that was also of course what was what was going on in South Central Los Angeles during the contas in the S versus the Sistas there was a relationship yeah they were making money by selling drugs in the ghetto and they were taking that money and it was directly affecting global politics see in a country that cared about reform how many of those things have to happen before somebody would turn around and say okay we have a big problem and we

75:21have to weed that problem so out out of the CIA or whichever agency you want to you want to name so that it doesn't happen again when that doesn't happen you I remember um looking into police departments that had problems and in La when I was growing up you knew which ones to avoid for example there was one in Signal Hill and we all knew you don't you don't want to get pulled over there So eventually they had to disband the whole police department and start from scratch because every time they tried to reform it there was a culture in that little police department that absorbed new members and the people that wouldn't become part of the culture ended up transferring out or what and the people that worked with the culture stayed that's a micras of how all these giant agencies work where how do you change the culture of something when you would have to get rid of the people who are

76:07there now who all bought in or they wouldn't still be there it's like we were saying about the Mainframe computer if you wanted to start the CIA over today would you use any of the people that are in it now hard to know because I think if you didn't you'd end up with an agency that thought listen we're keeping America safe and if we have to dose people with LSD as happened in you know the late 50s early 1960s as a way to make sure that our people aren't dosed with LSD we're going to do it you know the pilot was Barry seals I was trying to remember well done see you're having the same problem I am a little bit though too many goddamn people too much stuff in our brains too much data um but the so the clintons in the 1980s they pretty much were able to get away with pretty much whatever they wanted I mean they had such so much immense power right well this is Arkansas the governor

76:56of Arkansas yeah but he was a freak of freaks right d was just whipping his dick out all over the place what's funny is Arkansas Arkansas is not exactly a pipeline to the White House either so in that sense it was it was a little like getting somebody from you know Mississippi as your president it's just a little different well yeah yeah no no doubt no doubt whatsoever but this time like when all this stuff was going on established their behavior patterns maybe and then well Mina Arkansas of course is where the CIA was Dro or who someone in the CIA some rogue agent I don't think it was like a systemic thing inside the CIA where the top of the CIA was aware of it and condoned it and sanctioned it but someone was bringing in drugs and they bringing in drugs to Arkansas I don't think it's a coincidence that the governor of Arkansas gets FastTrack to becoming the

77:44president it's probably in some way related in some some Fiber whether it's I don't think it's the most important aspect of his governorship but there's some connection there it has to be I'll tell you what though if you go look at at Bill Clinton in the primaries when he was basically chosen to be the Democratic candidate to run against the Elder George Bush and you look at those stiffs he was up against it's how it always is I mean when you look and you go okay there's a bunch of people who I could never vote for in a million years and there's one person who's got some Charisma right I don't know how it happens that way I mean if somebody wanted to say well that's the part that's rigged listen the two parties here are private entities that can do whatever they want someone said to me the other day what happens if Hillary Clinton drops out for health reasons you

78:30know who who naturally does the job devolve to and I said whoever the Democratic National Committee wants it to which is really fascinating when register Democrat yeah they make themselves out to be like a constitutional uh pillar of our they're not they're a private entity that can do what they want and they will do whatever they want if they have to if that comes down to it so all the people that voted in the primaries for Hillary or Bernie or for any doesn't mean anything anymore so now who who are you being represented by do does the king just choose someone I mean this is what you're down to you're down to like a monarchy well but that's why you said the founding you talked about the founding fathers earlier and I'm always blown away that Madison who's the guy who's most responsible for writing the Constitution was like 23 wow I was the most irresponsible you know Goof Off in the

79:13world I think at 23 so you look at those guys and you realize how much they had a problem with what they called factions their version of factions is what we would call parties today and they thought it was poisonous and yet it was like a a generation later and what do they have cropping up factions so it's it would be a really difficult thing it must be an evolutionary natural thing to normally develop in a society like ours but if you decided that that was the poison pill what could you right into the founding documents that prevented that I don't know but but to me that's the root of so much of our evil in this country is we have two parties that control a corrupt system and in order to fix the corrupt system the two part parties would have to be on board to do it yeah well okay that's that's asking what have we said the fox to redesign the chicken coop it's not in the fox's

80:02interest well it's also what we're talking about whether it's the CIA or the NSA if if you're asking them to redesign this thing you're asking them to relinquish some power that's right and to redesign it in a way where they can't get back into it even if they had to do it to save us right I mean that's when it gets really Wiggy if you say I don't want you spying on us anymore and the next 911 attack we have happened because they couldn't spy on us you better believe they'll point that out yeah and also if you had to redesign it you would have to eliminate some jobs I mean there's no way this thing is operating at 100% efficiency so somebody really audited it you know whether it's the CIA or the FBI or the NSA I mean do 100% sure they're doing their best but there's no way it's done really well it's just the government the government up almost everything because most

80:45people don't want to work for the government so who do you get you get a bunch of people that well okay I'll do that job it's like is anybody clamoring to be the guy at the NSA that gets to read Dan car's emails oh I think I I think what it is I mean a better way to put it is it's the systems decline I mean it just deteriorates over time and it's it's every system is remarkably hard to go back and fix and the government especially you know we got 240 years of of Deadwood and you don't often go in there and have a spring cleaning session you know so I think it's now and I think the founding fathers were people who were aware they used to talk about lifespans of countries and so you you know that computer analogy we use is a pretty good one this is an old computer that we've patched many many times and also tasked to do many many more things than the

81:28Constitution ever envisioned because you have a great depression or you have a second world war or you have nuclear weapons appear on the scene so all of a sudden we have a flexible Constitution to deal with unforeseeably time afterwards they kept all the forms senators were still elected I mean you have an all powerful Emperor but they still went through the process of electing Senators as though nothing had changed they still held elections they still had people giving money to Senators to give them favors but we had a system in Rome you know as if I was there but at that point it was a total dictatorship but we elected Senators anyway because the forms had a long and Noble tradition that was tied to the way way Romans saw themselves the same way we're tied to that 1950s high school textbook of who we are if we had a dictator someday they would never be

82:32able to get rid of senators and because the forms are very important well that's one of the biggest fears about the Patriot Act Right and the Patriot Act 2 as well is that if something did happen and martial law was declared would we really have the same system that we think we have would we have that 1950s textbook version of Amica or would we really have a military dictatorship that's disguised I just read a book I think it was called American coup you know back 20 years ago people who wrote those books were conspiracy people who had no real now the people writing those books are all insiders and they have generals writing blurbs on the back and this guy it's kind of a boring book cuz he talks so much about FEMA and Katrina and all these things but sometimes when you're diagramming how these things happen it's not spy Thriller type stuff it's really

83:20sometimes run-of-the-mill we had this problem we had his point is that we've been living in a society that's operating between the lines in the Constitution for 50 years now and that the government is absolutely petrified about all the threats out there to us and in order to protect us things like little writings on hemp paper from 240 years ago are not going to stand in the way of us protecting us from another 9111 or nuclear bomb going off in a harbor or something like that well of course the argument to that is like of course you're going to say you're protecting us of of course that's the reason sometimes you're not but how convenient it is that you are also controlling vast amounts of wealth controlling so much of the ability of the United States citizens to to do their jobs to get through life to to do anything that they want to do without being infringed on by this group of

84:17people that sort of got elected you know got elected in some sort of a weird strange way in an Antiquated system that doesn't really make any sense anymore and is only really held accountable up to a certain extent that's one of the weirder aspects about real government corruption because the real corruption is the legal like you're talking about The Ledger showing what people did what and what they received for those donations and how much they gave and how much they got out of it and how they became like that is how is that legal and insider trading is illegal how is that legal and Martha Quinn Goes to Jail not Martha Quinn she the MTV she VJ from MTV Martha Stewart rather goes to jail for a stock trade you know where she was not honest about the information that she knew about profiting off a stock trade it's it's insane like the disparity it's insane how much how much

85:15weird corruption is just entangled into the system that the only way to get rid of would would have to be you would have to stop all those jobs that are that evolve around all that money coming in you're dealing with Untold millions of dollars that being siphoned from the system by all these people all the lobbyists and all the special interest groups that constantly work in the Washington Hive to extract those people at this point it's it's almost impossible without a total reset of the system well and look at how look at how things change so for example when the founding fathers set up War Powers which they to be the most important thing they separated the part where we decide to go to war from the power of fighting the war and they gave the power to fight the war to the president he's the commander-in-chief but they did not give him the power to decide to go to war

86:09right that's too much power for one guy they gave that to Congress so Congress has the power to to declare war once they do the president has really extreme emergency authority to fight the war when Harry Truman took us into Korea in 1950 he called it a police action and he called it a police action because you don't need to declare war to have a police action but he sent the United I we lost 50,000 guys or something in Korea um and you know a lot more Koreans um once you do that we've never declared war again as a matter of fact no president even throws that out there they would love to have a support a declaration of support by Congress but once you do that you you break an important wall the wall that says that the president has basically unlimited powers in Wartime and now he has the right to decide when war time is okay that's a firewall that had been built

86:59into the system that once it's broken you can never repair that you can never go back Congress has no way to repair that firewall so now somebody said to me if Donald Trump's elected president can he use a nuclear bomb against a country or can he decide I'm going to scare the heck out of North Korea and I'm going to you know drop a bomb off their Coast yes and he can do it without asking anybody and the only people that might tell him no are the military and if the military starts telling the president no that's almost as scary as a president that can drop a nuclear bomb whenever he wants to so that's in the in in the founders construction of the country in in their mind you would have had to have gone to Congress and say can we drop a nuclear bomb on North Korea and then Congress would have voted decided and then the president would have been empowered to

87:45take whatever measures were necessary right we've that firewall is gone the president has extreme emergency Authority in foreign policy now he didn't have to ask Cong for anything there's only one thing Congress can do they have the power of the purse so they can cut off the funds but can you imagine our troops say in Iraq or Afghanistan and the Congress doesn't want them there anymore so the choice they have is to stop sending them meals and replacement bullets and it's not going to happen right so those are the ways that the constitution gets destroyed and and Truman I mean you look at what we mentioned earlier the CIA the NSA that power Truman did more damage to this country in in in one presidency than anyone I can think of and and and yet I cut him some slack because he the world had never existed like it existed in his era right right he had whole new

88:34challenges to deal with it's like when Obama came into office and promised to undo the the extremes of the previous administration had he done that we we could have said okay 911 happened we freaked out and then we fixed it right we we we got our balance back by not doing that he codified it now that's the rule right when both parties agree on something it becomes the way we do things now so if Truman had left office and Eisenhower had come in as a member of the other party and said whoa this CIA thing is more like an American gestapo we're going to get rid of it boom Truman is a blip but when he decides to embrace the C now that's the way we do business so if the two parties don't sort of look out for each other and say listen 911 is a one-off strange experience okay we understand how somebody could overreact and freak out we'll fix it and instead say no we'll

89:24keep things the way they are then you've taken another step down another firewall has been broken and the Constitution's been stretched again to the point where there are big holes in it now is there a fourth amendment anymore really I mean there's amendments to the Constitution and people will say to me all the time Dan you say our Freedom's going away tell me when we repealed an amendment doesn't work that way Rome didn't do that right they kept the Senators the forms stay but the reality can be changed mightily right yeah it and it seems like once it's changed you know what is that old saying about uh Power lost never recovered it's exactly right and let's understand something let's let's not take the American people off the blame list if another 911 happens they're going to go and call for the heads of the people that voted against spying on you know I mean that's how we

90:13are we're such a panicky people that we're not willing to suck up a lot of casualties if if that's what's required to defend some of this stuff if you're going to say you can't spy on Americans just understand some nasty americ amans are going to get fertilizer bombs and blow up stuff sometimes cuz they slip through that protection for you and me and everyone else yeah I wonder if over time like going back to that Battleship analogy like that's going to be the only thing that clears this up is that the people that start getting elected into office deal with the new level of cons uh transparency and the people that are growing up now who will eventually become politicians they grow up in a different world and so their view of what's possible and not possible is very different than like we were talking about the who you know just kind of had an an open pass to kind of do a lot of

90:59that they wanted to do back in the 1980s and in the 90s and they're still kind of operating like when you're talking about Hillary Clinton and the clintons just kind of doing their thing and as like if you look at the difference between here's like this is not a conspiracy theory if you look at the difference between what Hillary Clinton says the FBI found out about her emails versus what the FBI says about what they found out about Hillary Clinton's emails someone's lying and I don't think it's the FBI someone's lying like her version of it is a lie it's just not real like what she's saying is not what they're saying what's the Assumption built into that though the assumption is that I know that that's not the real spin that the FBI director put on it and the 5% of Americans who read newspapers know that that's not the spin but the majority of people that I'm

91:53trying to reach will simply hear what I say and if they want you know and here's the thing I mean this is like a bias we all have if you want to support that candidate anyway you're inclined to believe what they say and disinclined to believe what the other guy says this is part of the problem about the binary lesser of two evils thing we get into because Hillary Clinton is one of the most unpopular candidates I mean I always tell you know I have two daughters and they constantly ask me these really uncomfortable questions about why don't we have women presidents and all this kind of stuff so I'm all in favor of that and I have a lot of women who say know Hillary Clinton uh the most qualified candidate we've ever had for high office this is all just sexism and what I try to tell them is is this really the person you want to be the poster child though as the first woman

92:34president because I'll tell you what if current trends continue I don't imagine Republicans are going to lay up on her at all right the whole the entire Clinton administration was the Republicans trying to get them for something so imagine she gets elected imagine that they continue to Hound her the way they do and remembering that they tend to walk that line right being the clintons there's going to be 90% % of nothing in there travel Gates and Rose Hill Law Firms but there's going to be something they find eventually and they will impeach her for that and if she's the first woman president to be impeached how does that help you as the first you know if the first African-American president had been impeached that wouldn't have looked very good right and I got to say President Obama you know I don't like a lot of stuff he's done but from a scandal standpoint he's been pretty good you

93:16know by if you grade these people on the curve his scandal record has been pretty good if you don't count accidental deaths in drones that's not a scandal that's standard operating procedure that's how we do that's foreign policy baby that's that's not a a bug that's a feature but it see God it seems like a scandal when people find out the numbers of innocent people killed by drones and how many of and also the the the real issues with him saying that he was going to support whistleblowers and what they've actually done with whistleblowers and how hard they've been on the freedom of the press it's been a very very confusing time for a lot of people that were Obama supporters 8 years ago and thought like I did that this was the answer like finally we have this super articulate young guy who has a a view of the world that's similar to us you know he said all the right

94:02things when he ran for office he said him well yeah and he but but again what he had said was we're going to go and overturn the mistakes of the previous administration had he done that he would have reestablished a few fir walls that we ripped apart it's always interesting to try to theorize why that didn't happen people love to tell you those stories oh they took him in the back room and they showed him the Kennedy assassination said any questions that's a Bill Hicks bit but you don't know you know I mean a part of you can say listen they took him in the back room and said here are the threats we stopped last month do you really want to do what you say you know you you don't but you would love the president to at least say okay I'm going to hold a televised press conference now and I'm going to say here's what I said when I ran for president here's why I can't do it right

94:45when they don't though yeah but well I was going to say when they don't do that you open up the door to what the hell's going on right he gave you this small promise and small promise and maybe a healthcare reform but he said he was going to essentially repair the Constitution and he didn't so what's the story why yeah it's it's it's just so hard to guess and he's not going to tell you so it's one of those things that we're just going to all have to debate about to the end of time and then go home Angry well as everyone says though what happens when you get the truly truly Without Limits candidate into office without those firewalls yeah you know me I mean it's it's thing to say listen the president can drop a nuclear bombb on anybody he wants to legally it's another thing to have a president who says you know I can drop a nuclear bomb I'll just you know we'll do that it's also hard to

95:34understand like when you're seeing a guy like Trump and I want to get back to the Clinton Foundation before I forget but while where you seen a guy like Trump and you listen to the people that have actually interviewed him or talked to him and had conversations with him like one of them was I forget what head of military that he was discussing this with but he was talking about the nuclear option you know can't we just use nuclear weapons at that line yeah yeah you you heard about that right yeah yeah everybody knows about that you wonder like what was the tone of that discussion you know like like we was he just being curious versus yeah well or was he being silly you know I mean maybe look he's Donald Trump right he's a charmer so he's this public figure he meets people he talks to them he puts on this Persona obviously a lot of the stuff he says in a lot of ways he's like

96:19a comedian because he's saying many things for effect and whether or not he believes it or not is not the point the point is they're going to get a big impact he's going to kill you know like so I told the president of Mexico the wall just got 10 foot higher like when he's doing stuff like that he's doing lines those are punch lines it might not be that funny but it's got It's it's a punch and he's saying those in weird places like he's saying like it's it's part of what makes him interesting is that he's like this weird Entertainer that's hijacked the system and I say interesting it's like a very generous use of the word um it's it's scary you know what what interests me though is you get these it's funny because you know on Twitter some of the Trump supporters and I don't ever want a broad brush because I know a lot of people that are going to vote for Trump

97:06that are old people that are fine people that are you know but there's certainly an edge on some of those people that support him that that that has certain racism all kinds of things we see them on Twitter and so you know when when one of them was talking about um you know how Donald Trump is this you know they cuck conservative is one of the words they like to use now you know all those kind so so this but but to me no American who understands the United States well would want to vote for some strong man that whole attitude of wanting some strongman figure is as unamerican as I can think of and if you go study your your Roman Republic history it was the strong men riding in on a white horse that really signaled the beginning of the end you know don't don't anyone who wants too much power and Promises to use it to that's somebody to be afraid of in my book

97:55anyway no it's definitely not a measured person I do not want some strong man well the things that he says that you know that he's just trying to get a reaction like what what did he say about um McCain is that he he likes people that didn't get caught I know like what the are you saying and when he was basically a guy who you know five deferments or whatever he had that's a you know I mean what else is that but wow it's also what he does he says those outrageous things he hits those punch well someone's raping him you know he's got like these punch lines and look at who he was up against on the primary stage with a bunch of stiff robotic people repeating talking points it was a little like Clinton was in his primaries in in in in the early 90s when when it's a bunch of dead beat stiff cardboard cutout pretend figures and one person that you don't know what they're going

98:44to say next and that becomes interesting well what's interesting is the charismatic type people that we are so attracted to really are not what you want as a leader you don't want that person that needs so much attention that they polish their Persona to a point where they're incredibly influential cuz a lot of that person a lot of that when you're seeing is it's like they're entertainers I mean that's what it is when you're a really charismatic person you figured out a way to speak in a way that people like you more and then you've you've exercised that to the point where it's a well-honed muscle with Incredible endurance and you have a great sensitivity to how people are perceiving you so you know how to come across as Noble and patriotic and Brilliant and you know we all know that some of the things that people say like standard things that people say there's

99:30some of them that you really shouldn't even be able to say anymore because it doesn't mean anything and you shouldn't be allowed to just hijack those words and just use it to gain Merit like God bless our troops what the do you mean what do you mean by that the national anthem when people freak out over that I always say listen it'd be nice if we freaked out a little bit about what these songs and flags and symbols represent instead of freaking out over the symbol and ignoring the stuff exactly mean we're talking about a person who's in incredible position of influence and they're saying these things that are kind of not like a real sentence it's not really what you thought you just knew that other people have said that it's something you say so you're saying it but you're saying it about a very important thing you're saying about the young people the

100:11children of all the people that are here the 18-year-old kids that are sent over there to shoot people they've never met and you're saying God bless those people well who's what is God are you saying the Invisible Man in the sky with the harp is that who you're saying you're saying God bless our kids to go kill other people's kids are you sure that that's how you want to say that like you just wanted to have this open statement God bless our troops do I want our troops to be Sav of course do do I wish that we didn't have to use them we didn't have to have absolutely it's not a not a negative in any way shape or formed towards the military but it's these Expressions that leaders are just they they're freely allowed to plug into it's like a happy birthday to you or like a weird like you're you're dealing with massive issues that are super like not just charged but the consequences of

101:05being wrong or right or being unsuccessful are massive they're just gigantic you mentioned something I I've always found very interesting which is which is the Charisma of the individual I had a a polyi professor back in college who happened to be a German guy so he was sort of viewing our system from outside our system and he said you know this is how he used to tell the problem with you Americans is you have a president that combines two jobs if you were a European country that would be two jobs one is the Bean Counter Guy the one you were mentioned the how you want to be president the one that's you know he's maybe not so great at the big speeches and you don't want that guy going to the funerals and representing America and he goes and then we have in Europe chancellors or presidents that these people physically represent the soul they go to the funerals so he said

101:51you want John Wayne to be that guy and then you want some bean counter to be the other guy but in your country you require both of those things in the same person he says do you know how often you get John Wayne who's also a bean counter he goes that's your problem he goes you end up usually electing the John Wayne and wishing you'd had a bean counter so I mean in Europe he said those are two separate jobs it's a good point it's a good point what I was getting at by the Expressions is like saying things like God bless the troops or God Bless America is that just the whole way of talking as a politician is so it's so false and so accepted that we know that they're going to stand in front of all these people with this pre-planned out speech that is like this weird rally this weird artificial strip club DJ voice that they put on you know what I mean it's like but this is why Trump was

102:42so even to me attractive early on because he exposed what what happened to Rubio was a perfect example if you remember the primary debates with Trump and Rubio Rubio kept repeating the talking points so then Christie among other people said that's a talking point you keep saying it and then he said it again two more times almost proving that this is all scripted the the fun part of Donald Trump earlier on was he exposed all that because you sometimes got the feeling that he didn't prep at all right I mean there was you didn't know what he was going to say I I loved trying to imagine the Dilemma you know before these debates they always have someone stand in for the other candidate who do you get to stand in for Trump if you're like with Hillary Clinton practicing her debates who sits there and become I mean because you don't comedian or something but the point is is that is that that

103:30was the fun he exposed kind of the the the artificial Kabuki theater sort of way this is developed and I liked that because I think it's good when more Americans see what it really is Right In other words most of the time you're right they either get fooled by that or they've heard it so many times they don't even pay attention Trump helped expose that so in that sense that was good for the system of course now we've gone quite a bit farther down that road and uh and I don't think it is so good for the system anymore I do think anybody would beat Hillary Clinton almost I mean I think you know Democrats keep saying to me if you don't vote for Hillary Clinton you're going to to put Trump in office and that'll be your fault and I keep saying it's not my fault you put Hillary Clinton up as your candidate I mean in 2008 we saw how unpopular she was she shouldn't have

104:13lost to Barack Obama she was going to be coronated then you realize if she hadn't had a 70s something year old Democratic Socialist who let's be honest does not have a ton of Charisma and a guy nobody's ever heard from as her only two primary Challengers up on that stage she wouldn't be here if Joe Biden and this is the first time I can think of that a vice president hasn't tried to run him if Joe Biden had run he would be up against Trump now and I don't think Trump would stand a chance to be honest and I don't like Joe Biden but I just think he's a zero and right now Trump is a negative running against Hillary who's a negative a zero kicks both their rear ends yeah and he's also a zero who's had no negative consequence of eight years in office really which is amazing cuz he's known for gaffs yeah he's a goofy dude well we used to have this thing in Boston that Stitch's Comedy Club we'd

105:01call it Joe Biden night this is 1988 Malarkey he's an Irish guy we would steal other people's material that's what you would do like I If you yeah because people don't know but Biden plagiarized Kennedy speeches when he was running for president in ' 88 a big deal I recall everybody's kind of forgot about that but he like literally just stole giant passages out of I love that that's something we look back on now and go ah the good old days when that was the only thing we could slam somebody for well they're still doing it like didn't melenia or how do you say her she stole uh she claimed she didn't but it's a remarkable coincidence well it's Michelle Obama's exact words isn't it so what are the odds well they she didn't write that anyway somebody I wouldn't be surprised and someone brought this up and it wasn't me but someone suggested it and I think they're

105:43probably right that Trump did it on purpose and plagiarize Michelle Obama's speech so that people would talk about it so it would give even more attention to to his campaign I love the Trump questions like I mean Michael Moore of all people came out with a piece about 3 weeks ago and he started the piece off by saying something to the effect of you don't have to believe what I'm about to tell you but I will tell you that I have spoken to people who are in the know who tell me that Trump doesn't even want this gig that this is something that has gotten out of control that this was more of a I'll get a TV series afterwards and then he didn't expect you do this good and I thought to myself okay I don't know that I believe that but if that's true this is the most unusual funky weird American political history story I've ever heard I think it's the last gaps of a Dying Empire I just don't

106:33think you can continue the way they've been doing it I think this is showing us that there are no good Representatives there's are there's no good candidates there's no way we didn't know about them if they were there they we would know about them I mean maybe there's some young Senators that are coming up and there's some young Congress people that are coming up maybe well this was in Lawrence Ling's book uh uh Republic loss which by the way if anyone wants to go check out he put it on the internet for free now so you can read it and one of the L well Harvard maybe um so so but one of the things he said in there that was so interesting is he showed how people who are getting started you know running for mayor you know the lowlevel things how the parties begin the weeding out process and the first thing that they want to know is how good are you at raising money and this determines

107:22whether or not the part lets this mayoral candidate put the r or D after their name or that mayoral cand so in other words from the very beginning one of the main qualifications is how good are you at raising money okay so fast forward to when that guy or woman is up on the stage running for president and they have four other elected positions leading up to that all of which require you to be a better fundraiser when that's one of the number one qualifications required for the parties to let you progress then what do you end up with at the end of the line I mean what are the carrots and sticks that they're looking for a little bit different than maybe what you and I as voters are looking for that's why Trump is such a weird one right because he's a guy who has so much money he funded most of this by himself allegedly allegedly yeah people like to he obviously has money you know or credit

108:06you got really good credit I mean you could sell some of his and he would have money he owns some of that stuff it seems like he does have a lot of stuff and maybe his money's wrapped up in a lot of that stuff I guess I don't know I'd like to stop voting for 70-year-old people and it's not an agism kind of thing but as a person who just mentioned to you that at 50 I'm starting to forget things I can only imagine what I'll be like in 20 years well I said that about Hillary Clinton and people call me sexist they were like that sex I'm like she's an old lady Donald Trump he's an old man that's right you know what 70 was if you can watch those TV shows from like the 1950s and you see their portrayal of a 70-year-old it's sitting on the porch falling asleep and whittling you know I mean that's what this is 70 may be the new 60 but 60 ain't great either well it's definitely

108:51not the prime of your cognitive abilities it's not the prime of your experience level may be good but your bus speed is terrible yeah there you go again with the bus speedum Trump I mean doesn't even have experience so it's even more bizarre so it's not like you're dealing with this elderly Statesman that has so much knowledge and so much so much invested in our system of government really believes in it so much that he wants to lead this country and make America great again now you got a super rich guy who's famous for going you're fired and when Trump supporters say well he'll pick the best people I always want to point out you know he's already shown some of the people that he likes and there's the same old group of people you you've had before I mean he's not going and picking other business people who've never he goes and finds his for and you're going okay it's the

109:33same group I mean so I get Donald Trump presiding over the same old group of people who've been wrong about everything so far I mean that's the problem is that how do you get away from the people who are consistently wrong in a merit-based system the people that should be promoted are the ones who are right more often we don't get that we have the same faces forever forever I mean the same guys who are who are on I always say on if CNN is going to put to just name one these experts to tell us what this latest North Korea nuclear missile thing means would you please put up their track record the way you would put up the wins and loss record of a manager in baseball do you want that manager who's who's 4 and 72 explaining to you the World Series strategy or are you going to say this guy doesn't know Jack because if they put the records of these people they have on the programs you'd

110:21look at it and go I'm not listening to this guy he's consistently wrong yeah um but once someone becomes someone that people recognize like in that you're an expert you're in the Rolodex I'll call you when I need a quote that's right yeah it's just it's a weird time I think it is the weirdest time ever in politics I don't think there's ever been anything weirder than this well let me tell you what what bothers an independent like yours truly if you look at the demographics of the United States The Independents are actually the last poll I saw we're a slight majority now so divide the pie into three Democrats Republicans and everybody else which is what The Independents are we're we're not a party we don't have a candidate we could agree upon but we're everyone else we're the king makers in this election right then you watch a TV you watch CNN or Fox and they have 10,000 analysts

111:07talking about politics on there on Election night and everything else and half of them are democratic oper operatives and half are Republican operatives where the heck is anybody who could speak for that giant slice of the pie and you would think that that Common Sense would dictate you would grab some people right what are Independents thinking instead they ask Democrats and Republicans what Independents are thinking I don't and and I'm not saying that because I have a point I'm saying that because it confounds me I don't get it it seems pretty straightforward it seems like if CNN or any of these news networks decided to help support this Independent Idea and bring in Independence and and show that that Independents are the vast majority of the voters are or the majority rather slight majority of the voters in America if they showed that and oted that idea

111:53and people people would go wow I didn't know that that that kind of reporting they in on a conspiracy like that no I think they're complicit because they have relationships with the people that they're interviewing and they know that look where's the money the money is interviewing and getting on camera the people that are the most popular right now and most likely to win that's why one of the most amazing things that Trump did was all that talking he did talking about Mexicans being rapists and all this nuts about the wall and all the all the different crazy things that he said when he did that the news was forced to cover him they were forced to I think they liked it as long as we were still in the primary stage yeah they thought there's no way this guy's going to win everybody said that there's no way this guy's going to win right I said that I was one of the people who said

112:35that well he's now neck and neck with Hillary in the National polls I will say this and and and and didn't I just say you shouldn't listen to people who have a bad track record so I was wrong about that so bear that in mind o in one on my trump analysis on how far he'll go so just be fair um but you know when you look at the American electoral system like a an analyst does they notice important states you have to win right this state has to you know as Ohio goes or as Florida there's certain places and then there are other places that are gimmies this state will always go Blue this state will always go red so the Battleground are the are the states that are the toss-ups in a bunch of those States Hillary Clinton is leading and so the attitude that the Sharpies at least have is that it doesn't matter what the polls look like it matters how Ohio goes and it matters how flid you know so

113:26in other words those are the choke points that the real Sharpies work from four I mean when Hillary Clinton decides four years ago I'm going to run for president okay get into Ohio now start working those places now and so when people talk about Trump not having a robust establishment or organization on the ground this is where he's going to get killed they'll kill him in those States and then he may win you know you could conceivably come up with an election where Trump gets gets more actual votes but Clinton wins The Electoral College and wins the key States and that's how the Sharpies who do this for living as as consultants and as campaign strategists that's how they win they find those places but I think when you see her fainting at that 9911 thing when they're trying to walk her to the car and she starts falling B timing on that huh just all of a sudden drudge

114:14looks like a Nostradamus in that doesn't he yeah well it's it's terrible to see it's terrible to see that she's in such poor health that she starts just falling down I got to tell you though Joe I mean you know you you could do it cuz you're in good shape if I had tried to do what either one of those two people had done in terms of what their schedule has been like I would die I had a major drinking problem I'd be drinking too much caffeine I'd be drinking too much alcohol I'd be I'd take up smoking I don't know what I'd do but I mean what we require those people to do with this permanent campaign that goes on forever and these are 70-year-old people as we said I'm amazed they both haven't broken down and if I'm I would look at this and go do I really want this if this is how hard the job will be I could be in Hawaii I could be I could be vac do they all go gray

115:01what's going to happen Trump is gray let's be honest but how much is a 70-year-old guy going to age when he looks at how old the president's get in those jobs I think Trump's going to sleep in he's going to hire people to do all the dirty work he's just going to just just get on the internet and go you're fired like have a YouTube channel who knows you know there is there there is a part of you that would love to just have a view of what it you know like a Gilligan's Island episode where you have a dream sequence the coconut hits you on the head and you imagine what I would you know I don't want to live through it but I'd love to see it for a minute to see what it would look like Hillary Clinton would just be more of the same that's the we're heading towards an iceberg here and she's one of the people that set the course so that's my problem with her is

115:41she's she's doubling down on what we've always had whereas Trump is is the wild card I mean you just don't know well like you said there's a lot of intelligent people that support Trump but man there's a lot of poor Trump can youy old lady that got punched in the face at a trump rally can you explain to me and I I've talked about this in a couple of shows another thing that I'm having a bad track record myself maybe you shouldn't listen to me at all but but on the racism thing which I don't I don't ever want to put a number on what percentage of the Trump supporters fall into that category that we see Twitter people you know trolling us on but but I thought that was going the way of the dodo I I am more surprised by that than anything else the the rise in overt and and I don't even want to say RAC but just people who look at the world with that that Viewpoint

116:26that lens I thought we were you know not evolving but but like I thought those people were dying out I thought they were like Archy bunkers and they were just going to be and to see that recur is the biggest surprise I've had in my adult lifetime I think when analyzing politics well they absolutely still exist the question is have they diminished in numbers I think they have but if you're just dealing with social media there's so many voices so many people have a voice if you're dealing this is one of the ways that I've always tried to describe how many people there are in this country and I don't mean people with Down Syndrome I'm not I'm not going to not stop using that word it's not a medical term it doesn't mean people with a disease okay if there's 300 million people in this country one out of a hundred is going to be a idiot at least one out of out of

117:15100 really really nice nice really nice that's 3 million idiots in this country that is a gigantic Minneapolis siiz City filled with morons they tweet a lot yeah and they could just be racist and sexist or just trying to get a rise out of us let 13-year-old kids I mean that's the other thing some of these are kids who think okay the most shocking thing I can say is some racist term I'm not supposed to say of course there's all the above there's young kids like I would have done when I was 17 if you gave me a computer when I was 17 and I knew I could tweet to Al Gore I'd probably made make the meanest tweet I would try to be funny yeah you know I just think there's there's so many voices out there that when you see racism attached to the Donald Trump campaign and you know like you can't really say what percentage of Donald Trump supporters are is it more

118:09of a problem in the Trump campaign than the Hillary campaign yes does the fact that he won't does the fact that he won't take it head on you know when they I was going to say you can see the reporters try to sort of frame the question so that he has to either go left or go right on this you know would you uh would you denounce the KKK and David Duke support what did he say I don't know what the KKK is or something like that I he came up with some some answer say that can you look that up cuz I don't know I don't want to I don't you know I'm going to get 10,000 angry Donald Trump go like really easy stuff like slavery good or bad Donald that's right just real easy stuff just give me your position on that okay let's work from there Civil War good idea or bad idea you know what what oh god you know yeah I I just had this moment outside my body where I thought we're really talking about this

118:55stuff I mean you know there is and you know you had brought this up earlier and I wanted to point out we had talked about uh uh people growing up young people today and whether or not they're going to go back in other words say oh this is all so far you know beyond where anything we should go back or if they're going this is the new normal to them yeah you know that to them they don't even remember when Dan Carlin talks about the loss of the Fourth Amendment they're going what you know I don't even remember what you're talking you know God that'd be crazy to let people do that or whatever I mean you wonder if if once you haven't had a freedom for a while does it seem radical to go back to that there was a great quote I use it all the time by a historian a long time ago named Charles Austin beard and he said to be considered a dangerous radical today all you have to do is go

119:40around spouting the phrases of the founding fathers that'll get you on the NSA watch list today yeah what does that mean you know if you if if you if you you know take that out so smacking the m but if you take that out and you try to analyze that what does that say about how far we've come you know revolutionaries create your country and then we very quickly lose that revolutionary ardor and we become much more conservative which is natural I think but you know we talked about life cycles of countries are we over the hill I mean could you make a case that the United States concept which is really a utopian one this we can all be free we can all run the country is that something that is past its prime it's cell by date well I think that the corrupt amongst us have tried to whittle away at it like you're talking about the Fourth Amendment or the Second Amendment

120:28or even the First Amendment any of the amendments where you you look at the freedoms that people really worried about losing and when something like the Patriot Act or the Patriot Act 2 gets passed and you realize that they can just sort of detain you and they don't have to charge you with anything and they can detain you in definitely if they just decide they don't have to present you with any evidence they don't have to give you a trial they don't have to give you a court date like well okay well well what are we operating under then if you have an if you can make an act like that and that sort of dissolves the Constitution and the Bill of Rights for people who you decide are the bad guys if you can just do that then we don't really have the the protection of the Constitution or the Bill of Rights anymore back to what we were talking about earlier the corruption where you'd

121:16mentioned the Second Amendment why isn't the Second Amendment in as much trouble as the fourth for example because there's money right there's some money on one there's not a lot of money that's right that's right and so and listen I'm okay with that I mean if you're going to if you're going to to to create a group and get a lot of money to defend an amendment to the Constitution even if you know Americans can argue what the Second Amendment means but I love the idea of money coming to legislators because that's what they pay attention to to protect those rights my problem is that the Amendments that are getting so shafted are the ones that don't have a lot of money often have a lot of money on the other side yeah well it's just bizarre that you could get so much done with money and that this is our system of government and it slowly but surely crept its way into the root

122:03system of it and just entangled it and choked it down I think it's natural though I mean I think I think that that basically this is the way it always is and we would have had to have held it back with all of our Force to keep it from doing EXA cuz money has a way doesn't it I mean we all we all are vulnerable once you have enough so that you don't have to be vulnerable it's different but I mean if you are just a person struggling to get by and somebody you offer somebody offers you a lot of money to do something it is a heck of a challenge to have okay here are my philosophical beliefs here's food for my children or whatever that becomes very difficult and with these legislators the pity is that they all want to be reelected so much that they can let the money sway them that if they didn't care that much about the jobs the money might not mean that much that once you get

122:48elected if you said this is all I want then you don't care what the money says you only care what the money says if you want to get reelected which argues for term limits and all that stuff maybe yeah no you're right you're right it's just boy it it's it's daunting when you sit down and talk about it like this I know I always come in here and bring you down I'm sorry I do it you ought to have a guest after me to cleanse your Palace this is what he said about David Duke what is it David Duke is a bad person who I disavowed numerous occasions over the years Trump said an MS no this is not the first time though this is after he got slammed for not doing enough to disavow the so in other words this is like the the the follow-up question and the follow so the first time he said something like I I don't want to misquote it but I recall him saying something like I don't know anything

123:30about the KKK or something like that and everybody lost their minds but if you if you said to yourself okay 5% of my support is from people who would like a guy like David Duke I'm not going to cut out 5% of my support I don't know I the whole thing is surreal to me a little bit once again you know if I've been caught off guard by anything I've been caught off guard by this and and I I can't Pro it yet I don't know how to I don't know how to fit Donald Trump and and that one segment of his supporters into my worldview cuz I thought they were a Dying Breed I didn't think that could be resurrected I talked to a guy when I was a reporter during the Bosnian war and he was a cowat and he tried to make the case to me and he very well might have been right that a lot of those people in that area where they have historic problems with each other and always have we getting along just

124:18fine while economic things were okay you know in he said we were intermarrying you know serbs could fall in love with croats it was it was going okay but he goes once everything hit the fan and times became tough and the economics came into play all those old feelings came back and I thought to myself is that something that is applicable on this racism thing I don't I don't know but one could make a case that we haven't been this unsettled in a very long time in this country are we seeing a a I don't know it's hard to factor how much that plays a role versus how much the internet and the ability for these people to speak out when before they would have had to be xeroxing things and leaving them on your car you know when you come out of the grocery store did you ever get one of those things come out of the grocery store you have some racist track on your car window or

125:04something I never got a racist one but I've got ones for car washes what about the Tony you ever get the one of the Tony Al ones he was famous heon he was like he ran his own religious thing here or something he used to have people twice a week I'd have that on my car but in the old days that's how somebody had to do it now they are have a broad clast platform are we just hearing from these people more cuz they can speak to more people well they also could find like-minded groups that's true I mean you couldn't find that many like-minded groups if you lived in a neighborhood full of progressive people and you were like a really conservative person it'd be really kind of difficult for you to you'd have to seek these people out and now it's with a couple clicks of the mouse and all of a sudden boom you're on some website where a bunch of people agree with you and wind each other up

125:46everybody winds and that happens by the way let's not you know pick sides that happens on all sides go to Daily Coast and places like they W they wh people up you know and they also they're apologists and they're not honest about the faults of their candidates like there was this thing about Hillary about like I said it was people were talking about how it's sexist that people are commenting on her health and that if it was a man that was running for president who got weak during 9/11 during you know after some sort of a service for the the fallen troops that that would be totally acceptable like that's not true and history shows it because people forget that they uh George McGovern had to drop his vice presidential candidate because the guy had been released that he had visited a psychiatrist for some depression problem shock therapy shock therapy that's right yeah he had on more

126:34than one occasion had electroshock therapy because he was a Lon he's not not supposed to Joe Rogan maybe you're just playing into the propaganda can't get shocked to fix your brain and then a couple years later run the country there's only one way to find out that's true I mean maybe getting shocked is awesome you know what maybe if the shock collar was in the in the hands of Voters we could get something done in this country you know one more time the president makes a wrong move Dick Cheney I'd love to have a shock button you know just there's a couple people John Bolton I'd love a shock button I think a lot of the people that are really excited about Hillary becoming president are excited because it would be a first first time a woman is I would like that aspect of it myself yeah and it would make uh is make us feel like we're progressing that we

127:19we can find the best candidate and that that regardless of sex the real question isn't that the real question is is that the best we can do cuz if that's the best woman we've got that's crazy that doesn't make any sense well she's the most qualified and she's also under two criminal investigation simultaneously she's also like I'm not a conspiracy theorist for the most part but how many people have died that have crossed them I don't go there I'll tell you where I seen yeah I have what's the number I don't know I'll tell I'll tell you this here's where I go I go to a much more concrete place which is look at who she's speaking to and look at who she's raising money from and look at what they want release the transcripts in those Bank talks oh see and to me that she shouldn't have a she shouldn't have a choice in that right how is it possible she does but because she keeps it a

128:08secret what does that encourage Joe Rogan leaks right and hacking and so if you didn't keep that a secret you could more legitimately say listen there are certain things that the public shouldn't know when you keep things from the public that they should know a lot of the goes well the heck with that that ought to be leaked you know well it's almost like they're trying to hold back as many leaks as possible before November just like until it's too late EXA hold it back exactly once she's in she's in but there's so many leaks now it's it just it's getting so strange when I I I quoted in the last program I did I think it was a Dana Milbank column um he had talked about one of the recent links that that okay don't h i get hassled by Russian hackers all the time or people that are mad that I could talk about Russian hackers or whatever sorry dudes I know so so but

128:55but but Milbank had said that these people had had hacked the records and then released them but they also had altered something and then released that version too and so they tripped themselves up so that you could compare these are the documents they hacked then these are the ones they they released to the public and they had altered something and I said everyone when they found that story out breathed the sigh of relief cuz now you have an out and you see it already the DNC is going well listen Russian hackers are known to alter this stuff so the minute that came out it was the greatest Boon to all the politicians in the world cuz they could say whatever that says is probably altered you know so it's it's the wonderful get out of jail free card on the hacking yeah well that is true and but it's legitimate too because if they really did that well that is a get out

129:40of jail free card so now the hacking has just muddied the waters even more it certainly has I mean I would actually probably support a hack if I was uh running for president in that in that sense because you could say look you're not going to trust evidence that came from someone who got it through illegal M uh means that's and they are doing that yeah I mean it just why would we trust that the hackers would be the only ones who wouldn't distort the emails what do you got here Colin pow confirms leaked emails are did you see what he said in his leak emails did you see oh my God said Clinton's out girls he also talked about Hillary Clinton and hubis and all those kind of things which you know I mean I think I think that's the impression she gives so it's interesting to hear that people people who know and like her feel a little of that too she's also very suspicious but

130:24she what he said look at this look at this phrase I would rather not have to vote for her although she is a friend I respect a 7-year-old person with a long track record unbridled ambition greedy non not transformational with a husband still bimbos at home holy holy first of all how dare he use the term bimbos I am triggered you're not supposed to use that term that's a derogatory thought it would never come out though see this is coming for a guy who said 40 minutes ago oh boy but that's what I'm saying I'm going to get some blowback from this Joe Rogan you know that right for real yeah stop hanging out with me I know it's probably bad for you I know it is bad for me nah how can uh a guy like Colin pow or even Hillary Clinton have all of this stuff written in emails like are they that out of touch that this stuff is being tracked or like they should know

131:18that it's being tracked I think they felt like they could get away with a lot more than they can get away with and I think again we're talking about people who grew up and started behaving a certain way way before there was this level transparency well see you're thinking they should behave differently that's not how these people they're thinking now how can how can I not use that email problem again they're they're not thinking changing Behavior the behavior they want to change is using email that's the behavior they want to change I'm just thinking that they sort of adapted to the times that was the political landscape back then I think the political landscape today is just way different you have to L literally think think everybody is watching everything in point we talked about Clinton and and and and women Kennedy the Press knew that Kennedy was doing all that stuff but there was an

132:00Unwritten gentleman's agreement that you didn't talk about that kind of stuff never mind that he might have been having sex with with Sam Gian kan's girlfriend Judith exner at the same time and that there might be some problems with that um nowadays I mean that's why to me you know people say Bill Clinton was just impeached over sex in my mind anybody who's either dumb enough or whatever you you want to put in that he thinks he can get away with that is somebody I don't want with a hand on the nuclear button I mean come on anybody with half a brain knows I mean Joe if you wanted to get away with something would you pull that one I mean come on there's no way he was 100% going to get caught and did it anyway that's not good judgment well that kind of guy who becomes president is usually a dicks Slinger you know I don't think George I don't think the Elder George Bush falls

132:44into that category maybe he maybe didn't maybe he didn't Dix Ling but maybe he did maybe that like explained his wife like she's just hanging out and he would like hey I'm going to go dick he was a fighter pilot I never knew a fighter pilot who wasn't a little bit you know get around yeah there're Savages they're Savages you want them that way right living on the edge but those men I'm going to get all the fighter pilots writing me see this is a terrible show for Good Men those fighter pilots they're great men there was a high incidence of swinger Behavior did you know that was that was that the 50s and 60s or was that the fighter pilot who it was a um there was a study done no it was a conversation between uh this guy and uh fighter pilots about the high incidences of swingers and one of the things that I think they were saying I forget where I read this but they were

133:27saying that what was going on was that these guys were in such an intense job where there's a high likelihood of them dying and one of the ways to ensure that their loved one would be looked after is if someone loved them as much as they loved them so they would literally be in these fighter runs with these planes flying into hostile territory getting shot at thinking any day could be my last day so there's this desperation of like you're leaving behind a wife and a family and they one way they alleviated that this was the the idea was that they would Wife Swap and that it happened naturally you know who it was I think it was Chris Ryan I think it was Chris Ryan that was explaining this I like Chris Ryan yeah I I I'm pretty sure it was him I'm now now I'm like reasonably sure but that kind of makes sense because when you're someone who's everyday world is

134:23life and death on a level that a fighter pilot is I mean that is that life I can certainly see the risk taker thing where you say these are people who live on the edge cuz that's their when you you fly those planes you're a risk taker if you wanted to say okay a person who's willing to do risky Behavior here I'm not thinking the wife swapping as much as as having a lot of girlfriends that aren't your wife but but at the same time listen the like you said some of those personality traits are probably what you want in those guys yeah well I think the way Chris was expl explaining it too was that their bond and their camaraderie between each other was so powerful that it's sort of uh it sort of eclipsed jealousy in a way you know because they counted on each other so much and they were brothers in war and literally life or death struggle so there's a bond in a camaraderie that

135:11sort of superseded everything and that the idea of uh like that they could swap wives and they just love each other more it's kind of crazy I'd go with the yams ra that they're more like pro athletes and they're just they're just uh well or or just they're they're the Swagger you'd mentioned the Swagger right it's all part of of what kind of keeps them the kind of guys that can be fighter pilots you know yeah it may all come with the territory maybe it's a bunch of those things to you know it's not and then let's be honest there are a fighter pilots who never did anything like that absolutely give them the get out of jail free pass that's my Dan car get out the car listen to this podcast these guys are ass holes why do you listen fighter pilots are swingers you piece of you know what just happened a bunch of wives turned to their ex fighter pilot husbands and says

135:59honey that didn't involve you did it wife swapping that's a new reality show wife swiping F wife swapping fighter pilots you know for for those who have not seen all of the appearances I've had on this Joe started off you know breaking me into being on The Joe Rogan podcast with some some some some comments initially so now I just flow with it and it's going to get me killed eventually it's not going to do anything man it's a conversation with this is this is just like if you and I went out to dinner in between bites of food we would have probably the same conversations about stuff that's funny but what what do you like when you see what the reports are about the Clinton Foundation I don't totally understand what's legal and what's not legal but I don't think I've seen anyone said that anything they've done is illegal right it yeah it falls into that category the

136:52same category that uh um maybe the giving of ambassadorships to people who give money fall into the for for example the Clint there's no question that the Clinton Foundation goes and does good work there's no question but how much does the fact that they do good work and that your name is attached to it end up being something that helps you for Less charitable reasons right in other words it makes you look good as a candidate to be somebody that you know helps vaccine people against polio right so all of that right there has a subsidiary effect that you could if you wanted to say oh you're you're benefiting from this well now add the fact that you know people can give money to the foundation then the foundation can pay Bill Clinton to run the I mean it becomes and then if you gave money to the foundation does that mean you get special treatment I can hear the Hillary Clinton supporter

137:41saying well that didn't happen but it's the reason that people put stuff in a blind trust when they become president so that you don't even know what your money is doing so that you can't possibly be favoritism toward one and and the clintons have basically made it sound like they're not going to do that and once again as I said to you earlier if you know they're after you like they're after the clintons wouldn't you just leave as much room between you and any potential whiff of Scandal as you could but they don't I don't know why they don't but they don't I think they can that's maybe they can't at this point you know how could they they probably are so entangled with all those other people that have been a part of all that stuff for so long well and you know you've done this and I've done this we both been around some of these high rollers before where you realize how

138:31much they pick up the phone and talk to other high rollers and how interconnected that network is and there's nothing wrong with that intrinsically but you could easily see that that networking can be used for nefarious purposes good purposes or no purposes but they all have each other on speed dial right that's natural yeah it does seem natural I mean podcasters kind of have that we do have that it's a little known fact isn't it you and I two podcasters who learned you know about each other you're not the only pod Moonlight on you sometimes yes I Moonlight on you as well sir yeah I mean people in the same business talk to each other and become tight and it affect like you know it affects it affects the way they do business for sure and it doesn't even necessarily have to be like some V really carefully scripted agreement is almost like a known thing exactly right

139:23I think and and you know what and in the in the era of hacks and all that isn't that the smarter way to comport yourself right you know Nixon because he was a taper new when he had to have an important discussion with somebody he wanted to make sure it was safe they went for a walk right and they went for a walk past the White House Rose they got in the weeds out there and then they had the discussion and then they Ed the n-word that's right whatever whatever it might be but the we clear that's that's right say it so well well well but think about this in 10 years in 10 years how is this email hack Scandal have going to changed protocol on how all these people do things because there it is going you watch Colin Powell and everybody watching what's unfolding right now are determining that there are going to be new ways we communicate and it's not going to be like that well there's two

140:11different hacks right there's the DNC hack and then there's a Hillary server hack right aren't they different hacks cuz the DNC they are and then they'll be and from what I heard I told you I heard there was a Republican National Committee hack too I love the the fact that they fired that woman oh did you found something found not true I uh the guy that said it said he misspoke oh that came out later misspoke that makes me more suspicious than anything that's goddamn Miss spoker I just think it's hilarious that uh the woman who got outed in the DNC hacks as being this woman who was conspiring to like put down Bernie and help Hillary like that woman she had to step down and was immediately hired by the Clinton campaign I mean there's zero transparency I mean it's so obvious it's corruption let's call it what and the corruption is both parties and we have

141:02no options besides the both part so this is where you know like we said on The Common Sense Show for 11 years now this is your focal point of the problem we have a corruption problem both parties benefit from it they have no real interest in addressing it the only time they're interested in fighting corruption is if they can manage to fight the kind of corruption that helps the side without impacting the ones that help them so the Republicans always say that about Democratic campaign Finance reform that it goes after Republican funders but not Democratic ones in other words they're not they're not holier than thou they're just trying to figure out another way to game the system utilizing reform as the tool right yeah I mean they have to know in some way they're all complicit in similar sort of situations but the that the thing that was so weird I think I said not

141:47transparent at all I meant completely transparent that the thing that was weird about how transparent it was is that there wasn't even a gap in time of this woman getting fired and then getting for appearance purposes right no it was like instantaneous it's like we don't care we're just going to do it yeah she helped me out she hooked me up she's my girl I'm bring her over that's just like what you said about Hillary Clinton uh um and and the fact that she had said that the FBI director said this about her when he had just said something kind of complete but she knew that the 5% of people that would realize that didn't count same thing the 5% of people who realize wait a minute you just hired they don't count she's not after those people and there's another day and more news stories and a plane goes down in Singapore or something and then there's another news story and some

142:29nuclear test in North Korea and everybody's G it's gone three weeks later it's gone there's just so much going on that you can't really maintain any story like that in the news that's why the Glenn Greenwald Edward Snowden the way that they approached that was structured the way it was to come out in chunks because they had said If You release it all at once it'd be this huge story but then it's done if you if you understand how the news Cycle Works the way you just mentioned you want to release a nice chunk and then wait till the headlines die down again and we start moving and then release another chunk and that's the way these Wikileaks is doing that right now with these hacks they have they're releasing it in chunks because as soon as the news cycle dies down they want to take advantage of the next one the Wikileaks thing is one of the most bizarre scenarios where you

143:12have this guy that if you ask the United States like just the United States like what percentage of people support what Julian Assange did what what percentage of the people support letting people understand what is really going on behind the scenes I feel like pretty overwhelming I would guarantee you'd be in the high 70s some people are blindly patriotic and they just want their government to just have cart blanch there's a few of those but I think most people would support the yeah I want to know what the going on now this guy is trapped in an embassy in London you can't go anywhere Ecuadorian Embassy yeah something like that right is it Ecuador I I but he's trapped in this Embassy he can't leave he's been in this house for years a potential rape charge well it's not even a rape charge it's a surprise sex it's hanging over his head I know and and and he can't

144:04leave to go answer the charges CU they'll grab him well they'll they'll grab him on completely unrelated purposes or unrelated uh charges it has nothing to do with that they just want to hold him they I mean you really think that they'd be chasing him for this long because he had sex without a condom while him and his were spooning we all know that is it Swedish Court to rule on Julian Assange facing extradition of Sweden over sexual assault charges the Wikileaks Foundation has been confirmed to uh confin to the Ecuadorian Embassy in London for more than four years huh kind the ecuadorians to to hold on to him for that long so crazy he's been in his house for four years but here's what they have to do if they want to keep playing the straight and narrow they have to get a hold of some some leak documents from the other side because otherwise it's it's like it's like if

144:51you only get the leak documents from one side that does impact the election and that calls into question the motives of the leaker right if you're saying I release information right then then you can be above The Fray if you say like a lot of journalists understand how to do what you omit and don't release has as much value as what you do right so if the only leaks you're getting are from the Democrats and the Republicans aren't being leaked then that's influencing the election because you know as well as I do the other side has crap that that is just as shocking and upsetting and corrupt as the Democrats so let's see that too yeah let let's see that too and let's see what Trump does when he finds out they've been all talking about him you know I I'm ashamed to say that there's a part of me that says yeah let's see that I don't want I don't want to be that way but I I read somebody

145:38online said the other day that there's people who are going to vote for him just for the entertainment value because they don't want to be bored for the next four years and I thought to myself that's when the countryes really jump the shark when we're voting for candidates B I don't care what the do they're both bad I just want the most entertaining well a lot of people feel that it doesn't matter they're also thinking that what you look at as a president is really just a figurehead and the military industrial comp that book right now American coup so may look if you look at what Obama promised and you look at what he actually did it's they're very different things well people forget that George W bush actually ran on a more humble foreign policy do you remember that he was going to have people he said people Americans want a more humble foreign policy could

146:25there be any any dichotomy worse than a more humble foreign Poli and people say well 911 happened yes so we attacked Iraq yeah didn't make any sense and everybody was like look we're kicking someone's ass all right enough to shut up and wave that flag I will tell you this anybody who tells me that they support the troops again but are willing to send them willy-nilly anywhere at any time I I to me supporting the troops means you value their lives and their families and the fact that many of these guys and women have had to go back and back and back and their lives have been on hold and all and they suffer I mean how many stories have we read about what these people deal with every day go to the VA and let's say you want to support the troops fix the VA right do the things that matter to the Troops and then don't send them into Harm's Way unless it really really matters that's supporting

147:14the troops to me yeah the problem is we don't know what is going on when we hear that the troops need to invade some certain area we don't know if it's legit or not legit we don't know who the people are that are making the decisions ultimately and they classify it and they classify it and we we also don't mean there's there's there's got to be some Intel that they're not sharing that might sway our opinion one or they think that see like I we were talking about the um the Gulf of tonen resolution in the last Common Sense Show which like the the Gulf of tonen resolution there were parts of it very important parts of it that were not released until 2005 20 5 if if you found out within a month that the Gul of Tonk and which for those who don't know this is sort of the the excuse for why we were able to ramp up the Vietnam War which killed a ton of people right um if

148:03you had known within a month in real time basically that that didn't happen the way that they said it happened that's time enough to impact the decisionmaking they classified it so that by the time it comes out everyone's dead and it's in a history book you have no ability to impact the decision-making that's where classification kills us because if you the electorate say to heck with this we got to go out in the streets or we have to have a protest online you can't do that if you don't know what's going on and that was one of the more ironic things about Kennedy's assassination was that they locked the files up for like when when did the the full files on the Kennedy assassination are allowed to be released but they essentially made it so that no one could investigated for far longer than anyone's going to be alive like I think it was like 2025 or not well I did come up with reasons

148:55because I felt the same with you and I had to figure out a Cause right what would explain it that was rational and here's what I came up with and I'm hardly the only person who realized this you remember Oswald had ties to Cuba and he defected to the Soviet Union and then come home okay so if you're Average Joe or Jane and you don't know much about what's going on but you find out a Cuban Defector Cuban supporting Soviet Union Defector killed the president pres and that maybe that I mean do you see how that you know if you were reading The Guns of August on how World War I started and you thought it wouldn't have taken you know that that was an assassination too right in an open top vehicle by somebody and serbians were behind that in the way that the people whose Arch Duke was killed so so I mean if Americans thought that the Soviet Union killed their young president that

149:44they all loved with his wife right there and the two little children what would the and you know this is not even a year after the Cuban Missile Crisis how much might that have impacted the president's ability to keep us out of a war or not I mean I can see if somebody said that you might have a very good reason for hiding the fact that Oswald had you know really close ties I don't know I was trying to find out a rationale that made sense to me and that would be a rationale that made sense to me I don't think you have to classify it for a lifetime which they basically did yeah what is the year next year October 26 2017 oh watch when it comes out redactions will be all over the place oh yeah I'm sure you'll have if and but or yeah I'm sure but uh I mean they have leaked some stuff or released some stuff due to the Freedom of Information Act that people would

150:33consider incredibly offensive uh and they found out about it like 1962 Northwoods operation Northwoods where they designed attacks on Guantanamo Bay they were going to arm Cuban friendlies and attack Guantanamo Bay potentially killing who knows how many soldiers they were going to blow up a drone jetliner and blame it on the Cubans all design if you look at the stuff that the CIA was doing and I think it's stupid to think that they don't do the similar things now it's it's crazy stuff crazy stuff that kills Americans and stuff that is so and here's the thing stuff that is so opposed to the 1950s High School mythology of America that it's hard to reconcile the two and those people will say listen it's the real world welcome to you know we were trying to survive we had you know Hydro bombs aimed at us I mean all that stuff is true but but how do you reconcile it I

151:25mean yeah that was that was a a giant issue with Kennedy you know and and secrecy itself was a giant issue with Kennedy which is so ironic that they sealed his death up for 25 years you remember that very famous speech that he had about secrecy in government oh yeah and about transparency being important oh my favorite line from Kenny was always the one where he says those who make you know peaceful change uh uh impossible make violent change inevitable I mean those the kind of things where you wonder about us now where you say listen the ability to have our system evolve in ways that make it better are going to prevent really bad things from happening in the future if you can't if we can't get it together now just follow the current trends outward if nothing changes what is the 2020 election going to look like are you a Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone type of

152:11guy I am now I changed my mind on that I used to be they got you huh who got you well no here's the thing and and and this is what always me about the conspiracy theorists I love them but I wish they wouldn't leave stuff out of their out of their stories that dispro you know that that look bad in other words and everybody does that I don't blame them everybody likes to say okay I'll show you the things that that back up my theory but with Oswald there were a couple of books that came out uh my friend Vince bosi had one uh Gerald Posner had another where they included stuff that was not in all the conspiracy books that I read and I've read a lot and you say okay one why the hell didn't you put that in there now I mad at you and I don't trust you as much what stuff me specif well the fact that Oswald took a shot at a US general before he took a shot at Kennedy right if you figured out

152:57that when did he do that oh God I want to say who was the General too 10 years ago I would have remembered his name go we have to look up Lee Harvey he took a shot at the general and and missed and with the same rifle I believe and and it was poser and buosi that both pointed that out and when you turn around and go okay if the guy was really taking a shot at a US general now that change es My overall view of the guy uh Oswald's earlier attempt to assassinate General Walker interesting and so when you hear that and again now that might not be anything but why'd you leave some of that out of my conspiracy books that's important you know as another thing about uh the Oswald thing that always bugged me was that they said that the scope wasn't cited in properly the man ler car how could he how could he get off that shot when the scope wasn't even cited in properly I'm like how do you

153:50know it's not cited improperly you you know it's not cited improperly because right after they found it they shot with it how long did it take before they shot with it do you know anything about Scopes let me tell you something about Scopes you drop your rifle on the ground and that thing gets off it's decal it's uncalibrated it happens easy you could bang your rifle against a log or a rock or something like that I doubt he was putting it down carefully after shooting the president not only that who the was handling it there was so much Shenanigans involved in handling the right so like that argument I reject because when they said that the this this the gun wasn't cited in properly I'm like that does that doesn't make any sense you have no idea what how it was cited in when he pulled the trigger you don't know so easy Kennedy had pissed off a lot of people a lot of people and

154:34so I mean that when you talk about a conspiracy and having motive there were a lot of people that had motives I I always hate it when they you know the Oliver Stone movie drove me crazy because in my opinion the movie he did on JFK he took every conspiracy theory out there and threw them all in discredited all of them to me also had that fake General who didn't really exist was giving him all the information he does that he does can't do that get me started on him no I'll get you started F Kennedy yeah they they do that in these movies that are supposed to be about Real History oh he did it with the doors and then when he was he was called when he was called on it his answer was this wasn't a movie about the doors in reality it was a movie about what I thought about the doors when I was fighting in Vietnam listening to their music and you go then dude say that at

155:20the beginning of the film put this this is a fictionalized version of what I thought when I was in you know that's such a cop with Alexander the Great too yeah did it with the Alexander the Great film too you're just alexand going add in this movie The Snowden movie's got coming out this week Oliver Stone didn't get funding for Snowden in the US in Germany he found both financial support and filming locations for his political thriller but its release is lowkey is the US trying to keep it under wraps is the US like is it the US it operates as one giant machine right yeah the the Press is keeping it down because they don't want everybody to talk about the Snowden listen if if they thought it would make $150 million the studios would be pushing it left right and center right now they'd love a hit of any kind regardless of what it said what were we just talking about before you brought that

156:05up uh JFK um Oliver Stone adding stuff into those movies okay so no the that was uh I wanted to know what other things LED you to believe that uh Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone well I mean originally you know when you follow the story see it's not just the fact that that it probably happened a certain way it's when you follow the conspiracy talk and you realize you know what they're bringing into the equation how much do I believe the David for you know the Cuban idea how much do I believe and and after going through it you know if you go read like bu yosi's book he was the guy who wrote Helter Skelter he prosecuted Manson um he was a guy I liked a lot and and he he wrote a book where he did it like a prosecutor so here's how I would have prosecuted Oswald and when he lines it up the way he does you sit there and go okay this is not and I know bu Yu he

156:54was a he was a guy that would have loved to have written that it wasn't he would have loved to have said Kennedy was assassinated by a conspiracy but he didn't and he ran down the list and you sat there and go okay if I was at the trial and I was on the jury and they said what was the preponderance of evidence and did the prosecutor you know prove his case I would have had to have said after reading bios's book that unless I really had a vested interest in believing the conspiracy theory that he had done a damn good good job of making his case here's my problem with it and this is one that for whatever reason I don't see brought up very often it I don't think they have to be mutually exclusive I don't think oswal was innocent I think oswal very well might have shot at the at the present but I think it's highly likely they set up more than one shooter I think there's a

157:41possibility that gunfire echoing from that building could make people think that it was coming from the grassy null but there's so so many people that said that gunfire was coming from the grassy null that you have to wonder and you look at the shots that hit Kennedy like the one in his neck that's one of the one of the more interesting books that I read about it was uh case not not Case Closed um best evidence by David lifton yeah lifton was the one that didn't he say that they put something in the autopsy in Kennedy's head like a um that that to me by the way or something that was the part that blew me away cuz when we were kids uh they didn't have the Kennedy autopsy photos and then to eventually release those that was shocking and they put it in the book yeah yeah well they also changed between Bethesda Maryland and Dallas in that flight from Dallas to Bethesda they

158:29changed the res like what the impact was they were calling it a bullet hole in his neck in Dallas and then when it got to Bethesda they referred to it as a tracheotomy hole here's my problem if he was hit from the front and from the back like it's entirely possible that Oswald also was involved and that there was a bunch of people involved it's entirely possible that if you're going to assassinate the president if you're going to like have a conspiracy to assassinate the president you're going to use a bunch of people why wouldn't they use someone like Oswald why wouldn't they use some crazy who immigrates to Russia and comes back with a Russian wife and he's involved in communist propaganda and all sorts of other crazy unsavory he shoots at generals yeah that's a guy exactly a guy you would use and he might have been involved too it might have been and I

159:19don't it's somehow or another it always the the debate is always a mutual exclusive thing either Oswald acted alone or the CIA killed Kennedy or the NSA who the the Cubans the mob and they blamed it on Oswalt well it's it could totally be he was a part of it all and that there was more than one shooter that seems to me to be the most likely thing it's certainly possible when Jack Ruby runs up to him and shoots him in front of all those cops those cops were walking him out there to his assassination they're holding on to his arm we've got him we've got the guy who shot the president out in the open in front of everybody was that a guy with a gun oh no mine the guy who who was my mentor when I first started in news was a local uh guy here that everybody in news knew guy named John Babcock and Babcock was a Texas guy originally and he was in the motorcade in the very last

160:10car CU they had press riding in the so he's far away but he was in the motorcade so they went he was at Parkland when when it was announced that Kennedy was dead and then he was he told me the story he had good stories he had good Manson stories too um he was in the room with Ruby before they brought Oswald out before Ruby killed him and he said what are you doing here today Jack and Jack and he had a conversation uh beforehand um I don't recall what John thought uh in terms of conspiracy or not conspiracy but I remember that that was like a seminal moment of his career cuz he was broadcasting live he was on the radio while it was all going on and he was there at the scene he also had the most awesome Manson stuff because uh the station I worked at KABC was big in the Manson investigation they're the ones that actually found the bloody clothes a year later on the hillside while they

161:01were filming a recreation and that's how the bloody clothes got found wow and he would go and speak to Manson all the time through the when Manson was not convicted yet so he's on trial and a waiting trial and he and Manson became friends and up on his wall he had a photo of Charles Manson within pencil a note and I still remember what it said it said to the trial come early stay late it'll be quite a show and he said look at that writing that Manson did and I looked at it and it was weird you could see that the pencil was broken like he would snap the point off the pencil every couple of words he said do you know why the point on the pencil snapped I go no he goes cuz the guy had no education but he was pretty smart and he used to get so frustrated at his inability to express himself that he would break the pencil so then once he was convicted and remember he was sent

161:49to death row John said I stopped paying attention to him because you know he's on death row I'm moving on so Manson started sending him messages saying why don't you come and visit me anymore and so finally John went and he said Manson said so why don't you come and visit me me anymore and John said well you know Charlie you know you're going to the and Manson says so you don't think I can you know you don't think I'm and he goes no so he said come back in a week and so John says so I come back in a week and all Manson did was slide under the table like a cocktail napkin type thing and on it was drawn the layout of John's house and he said I went home and I bought three shotguns and I put them in loaded in various parts of my house he says they're still there to this day but basically wouldn't that scare the hell out of you to have somebody draw in

162:33other words he'd sent somebody to John's house to go look around and then tell him what it looked like and then and then send in the cocktail napkin he had so many good stories that old he was oldfashioned news guy but he was in the Kennedy thing and we used to talk about that all the time and now I wish I could remember 50-year-old brain bus speed what John had told me about his thinking on it I guess I guess my attitude is I'm always disinclined to believe conspiracy theories unless the propond of evidence convinces me otherwise well we talked about when I read we talked about the Gulf of tonan that's an absolute false flag conspiracy that was perpetrated on the American public resulting in us going to war ramping up the war killing who knows how many people but everybody that the people in government I don't know how to explain see the K okay all

163:17the people around Kennedy were Kennedy's people and so whether you're talking about the defense secretary or a lot of the whiz kids they were called when Kennedy brought in these new people from Private Industry they were his people right and they stayed in the Johnson Administration those people would have had to I mean if they had thought that their boss who brought them into government had been killed by Johnson or by the government I mean I just it's it's hard and then to believe but how did they know how would you know okay if you're all in an office and you're working with the president the president gets shot you think you're going to get more information than the average person in the street you're probably not you're probably going to have to read the news reports just like everybody else you're going to see oswal paraded out there you're going to see Jack Ruby shoot him

163:59you're going to have people in your organization tell you that they shot the guy who shot the president and you're going to believe it until you see the zuder film until you watching the Heraldo Rivera show and Dick Gregory brings on the zuder film what was it like 10 years later I remember that wasn't it like 10 years later what what year did it was it like they they assassinated him in ' 63 and I don't think he made it on the Dick Gregory show until like the 1970s no and it was late '70s too I think or the haraldo Rivero show so then here's the question either if it wasn't the government so look at all the different people that Oliver Stone could throw into a film right whether it's the mafia or whatever if it's not the government then the government has no reason at all to cover it up okay if the mafia does it Robert F Kennedy is going after the mafia all the

164:45time anyway it just gives him one more reason to go so the only way this becomes a conspiracy that stays secret and and and involves the government not investigating it is if the government is in on it so that's the only conspiracy theory that makes sense on why the government didn't pursue the conspiracy theory okay so if the government is in on it well how many people have to be in on it see here's the thing if if the narrative that and they did compartmentalize that was standard oper they everything is compartmentalized and there's a need to know basis and you know unless you're some dude in a movie who wants to get to the bottom of it and you why the war Commission report and the Magic Bullet all that stuff is is part of the cover up if you buy that theory well the Moren commission report in of itself is what Lyon uses as an a reason to go in and start investigating

165:35the Kennedy assassination well as I told you there's a good reason to have covered it up if you believe that the American people would draw a natural conclusion that a Soviet agent killed our president uh and remember you know Kennedy had been trying to assassinate Castro too so they were reasons for a Cuban group of people to take I mean there's he had a lot of enemies there's no he had a lot of enemies also in government he was trying to get rid of the CIA he was trying to do a lot of stuff that people didn't like the speech that he gave about transparency about secret secrets and secret societies being a a a damaging part of our culture that mean that was all that's all not good if you want to stay alive well and and I want to make it clear when it comes to these kind of theories I try to have an open mind mind always and and and you know try to look at every angle

166:22and I'm not saying that these things are not possible you would ask me if I had a view and I used to have one View and now I have another view uh if evidence came out tomorrow that said that made it look like it was a conspiracy or I would be perfectly happy to switch again I mean I try I try to to to be flexible on these things I don't have a vested interest So when you say those things I kind of go okay yeah I can see that it's not what I believe lately but I can see that yeah I don't really believe anything when it comes to that comes to K assassination other than some was a foot well like I said I get angry when the conspiracy theorists who write these books and it's an industry as you well know I get angry when they don't include things that might disprove what they say you want me to believe you I want I want you to lay it all out right and so I became suspicious once those books

167:07started coming forward saying well look what they left out here and look what they left out here and you go okay well now you never told me that you know well there's some tightly grooved paths when it comes to discussing that conspiracy that's why I've always found it so weird that no one mentions or very rarely is it mentioned that Oswald might have been a part of it the idea that he got off those three shots because they determined that it was three shots based on people's reporting and you know if you if you believe that he got off those three shots in a short amount of time and then you see Jesse Ventura trying to recreate it and say it's impossible no one can get that off well someone can do that that's not true like there there's people that are capable of getting off three shots in 6 seconds or whatever it was and and if I recall Oswell was a marksman was I mean look

167:52it's he probably was okay with a rifle but if you're leaning here's a reality you're leaning on a a window sill and you've got a scope with a bolt action ancient rifle by I mean if you really wanted to kill the president a maale order manlick or carono rifle is not what you would have ch he's not that shooting that far of a shot no I mean what how many yards was it no and plus after the first one you just spray kind of you just pull the trigger a couple but if someone else was involved that's where it gets even weirder like he's shooting down someone shooting from the front that seems like what they would do if they were trying to kill somebody if it's a conspiracy sure triangulation although let's be honest that becomes a lot harder to hide later right so if you're worried about exposure because exposure would would show the tentacles and well then you want to make it as cut

168:41and dried and simple as you can you start triangulating on a president that you know you don't know as you well know what those bullets are going to do right I think you open yourself up to massive problems if those bullets Go I mean if in other words if something had gone another way and it would have been impossible to deny that there was another shooter how does that change the whole investigation actually did happen that was part of the investigation itself leading to the magic bullet theory the magic bullet theory was was on the stretcher well no it was created because a guy was walking under the underpass and the curbstone got hit by a bullet he was hit in the head with a Ricochet so because he was hit with a Ricochet they found the spot where the bullet had hit and they had accounted for one bullet so then they had the head shot that killed Kennedy and then they had this neck

169:30thing and then they had this other bullet and then they like they started like trying to figure out well how many bullets are involved here and how does Colony uh Connelly rather have a bullet lodged in his in his leg like how does this happen or how did he get shot in a bullet that shattered his bone and went through his leg also went through Kennedy is that what we're saying like what are we saying so they had to come up with that one bullet doing all that damage specifically because somebody got hit with some spray that's mean that that did happen that was a part of the investigation and there's a part see and and and this is the part where it's kind of hard if if if you want there to be anything cut and dried if you're the waren commission report and you're doing this not that long after Kennedy's assassination I think you have to allow for the idea that there are going to be

170:14unknowables right and and especially ballistics I mean ballistics are crazy right bullets tumble bullets and you know you fire 900 bullets at something most of them are going to be deformed but some of them might not be yeah but they're never going to look like that magic bullet that bullet is that's the most aspect of the entire investigation is that silly bullet what is that a t-shirt Kennedy assassination think it's like where how it would have had to travel through his body too well that that doesn't surprise me bullets can do that you hit bones and you Ricochet and you tumble and this is it's not totally accurate too this gets exaggerated like the the entry point and the exit point but the point is when bullets hit bone they they bend and they they change shape when bullets don't hit bone when you shoot bullets into ballistic gel or when you shoot

171:04them into water especially they don't deform that bullet looked like a bullet that was shot through something soft look at it there just doesn't look like what a bullet looks like when it hits bone and that that hit bone it shattered Connelly's wrist that same bullet and they apparently just found it on his gurnie in the hospital and we're supposed to think that that's a bullet that went through Kennedy and Connelly and it's I've never talked to a single actual ballistics expert or Firearms Enthusiast that believes that see this is where had I known I was coming here I would have brought both those books so we could have looked up how buosi and Posner explain the Magic Bullet because they the path could be explained I think bullets hit things people have had bullets ricochet around inside someone's skull and come out their eye when you shoot them in the face oh yeah like

171:58weird things happen with bullets when they hit bones and they Ricochet and they move around so that's the path of the bullet seems crazy but possible what's weird is that they think that is the bullet that doesn't make any sense at all if they just said that's a bullet that we found and maybe you know he had another one I mean maybe something hit something else maybe I don't know to the consp yes it does to me it points to people being full of the fact they conveniently found it on the okay so the government you're saying that okay okay I guess what I'm saying is a you're not going to have to convince me of that um also that the Warren Commission report might have had all sorts of domestic and foreign policy reasons for doing what it did and just imagine if you're the CIA in 1962 and you uh you're getting together with all your cronies and you've been responsible

172:48for jacking people all over the world you got this guy and he's going to disband your entire organization you know and then you're talking to some other people that are upset at him because of the Bay of Pigs and you're talking about some other people that are upset about him because of this and of that and all the other things he's trying to do that people don't agree with and they go look there's a simple solution to this and you bring in that Lee Harvey Oswald character and you get that ball rolling you set up a bunch of different people that are really good at rifles it's I I think it's totally possible it's one of the consp ever it's totally possible I don't Bank on it I mean it's also possible here's one thing that always bugged me about the Sauder film when you watch his head his head does go back into the left but the spray from the bullet in my eyes seems like

173:37it's going forward like he was hit from behind it's an exit wound yeah well it seems like a little bit of it but then sometimes when you hit someone like you can hit things and just that the impact the bullet causes a reverberation you know if you watch there's a lot of executions online and I'm ashamed to say I've seen some of them all of them yeah all of them if there's if there's a new one tomorrow uh no but but the one thing you notice is that there are probabilities but remember I mean the reason Kennedy's arms went up like this when he was shot was because it hit a kind of a nerve in other words things happen when you start striking nerves and that are unpredictable could or it could have hit him in the neck well hit him in the neck or behind the shoulder and but but that caused the arms to jack up watch this real quick here's a see when you see it

174:25it see it that looks like an exit wound to me it kind of sprays forward he his his head goes back to the left but that could easily have been because of the you know just the nerve reaction like that's the that's what I'm saying is that it's it's I know though man it does go back and to the left like it I know but that's unpredictable there there's um there's executions of uh Chinese nationalists killing Chinese Communist and you watch them and they'll do it over and over and over again and most of the time things go the way you think they should and sometimes they don't yeah you know bodies are weird there's a delay when it goes back into the left there's a delay that almost seems to indicate that maybe it was um a nerve reaction well see that's what the arms going up was cuz the bullet goes but watch the bullet hits can't believe we're watching this over again the

175:14bullet hits and then there's this back into the left H that could be from the impact of the gun too remember the car is also moving which is which is making you you know it's it's just it's so hard to tell and then here's another thing to take into consideration it's entirely possible that he was hit with two bullets in the head at the same time that is a possibility I'm not going to deny that and I'm also going to say that the reason that it would be interesting to know the answer I mean if somebody could come down from the extraterrestrials and tell you know this is what really is that it would tell you a lot about subsequent history right um in that sense the problem with it though is if you buy into the conspiracy theory as it's normally told then that basically takes you down this road that okay there was a coup the president was killed by the government and then that

176:01all subsequent history from that point on then takes a you know like you know they say with time travel you change something and you go off on a totally different course all history goes on a totally different course if that's what really happened in other words everything must be looked through a different lens um if I was to believe as I used to that that was done by the government then my whole Common Sense Show would be totally different but doesn't I mean don't you have to look at everything from a different lens when you find something like operation Northwoods when you find the Northwoods documents you see that signed by The Joint chief of staff that this was a real plan they were thinking about implementing and Kennedy put the boycott on it well what well they did some of this I mean operation Northwoods is not that far from things they did in other

176:42places um you know wasn't Cheney I'm sorry to interrupt you but wasn't Cheney trying to do something something about that with Iran wasn't there a similar uh thing that was on the table for a false flag to try to get us into Iran before the end of the Bush Administration wasn't there something that was being reported maybe that was on infowars.com I don't remember that one but see if you can find that see if you can find that false flag Iran uh Rumsfeld or Cheney I don't remember who it was the the problem that all those people have is if they think I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt and say if you came to me with secret information and says blah blah blah the country needs to do this now and you say to yourself but I could never get the American people to go along with that so if they knew what I knew they would but they won't so because of that I'm going you know so

177:27you start to try to figure out instead of just automatically going the conspiracy route you go okay could there be a logical reason that I would accept and understand that would explain the same sequence of events I I always try to do that now I say that as somebody who clearly knows the cia's record I mean that's been one of my interests forever the stuff that they do I can't think of any natural limitations on I can't think of anything where the CIA would have said no I wouldn't do that if the president wanted us to right uh I don't think many people know this but you know in the Nixon Administration there was talk about killing Jack Anderson the investigative reporter um and and it was G Gordon lyy who had offered to run him down with a car so when you talk about that and there are people around the president who are willing to consider the option well then

178:17I have to say you know Dan you have to open up your mind to the possibility that these things can happen and as I said my opinion for years was that it did right so um so I'm not not open to the idea to propo look at this to provoke War Cheney considered proposal to dress up Navy Seals as Iranians and shoot at them is that real well but what's thece of you got to be careful what is it he knows how to Seymour H he's you know Seymour's getting a little old poer prizewinning journalist for the New York yeah new yor Seymour Seymour HS is the one who broke things like I think he broke me the mili Massacre and things like that okay as I said earlier though Cheney is really a nefarious character in terms of you know if you weigh him next to the 1950s the idea of fair play in the American way he doesn't believe any of that stuff it's a dogy dog world and whatever you and I considered American

179:10values is marketing and you react you know I mean it's all about you know it's a it's real politique as they call it right it's he's such a weird character because he's almost biblical like when he had that heart implant and his body wasn't giving off a pulse anymore and the heart was just this artificial heart was just circling the blood like he literally was alive without a pulse how do you listen that anymore though who listens to him I mean I don't understand Fox News people but it's weird why while he wants to do it like why wouldn't he want to fade back he still wants to influence the process oh you talk about a guy with a rodex right he must clearly enjoy it he shot some people in his Rolodex I bet I'm accidentally shot some in the face I used to do a joke about it that's how you know you're were a gangster you shoot your friend in the face and your

179:56friend apologizes that's right that guy got on TV he's like I look like a bird I'm so sorry I was drunk he was totally sober that's right yeah listen Dan we just did three hours we did yeah I thought we were just getting started no we just did three hours this happens to us every time we you know what you're going to hear afterwards right we didn't talk about any history unless the JF can assassination sounds like history That's History that's certainly history we talked about uh I don't know lot a lot of good another three hours of the book great anytime you want to do it again man we'll do another three thank you buddy you're always so good to me appreciate you brother your your podcast is one of my favorite things in all of audio recorded history I just want to thank you for it thank you for introducing me to the cons because if it wasn't for that I would never have been

180:38uh Mongol obsessed and uh thanks just for being awesome man thank you for having thanks everybody we'll uh see you Saturday fight companion wo see you then all right I know I'm going to get hammer