Ryan Graves

00:07[Music] it's me Brian nice to meet you Jill pleasure to be here you're uh one of four or five people that I've talked to that have seen something that might be from somewhere else it's always weird when you talk to someone that may have seen something that let's just first before we even get started please tell people your credentials what your background is sure so you know my name is Ryan Graves I have an engineering degree mechanical and aerospace engineering I promptly left doing that to go fly f-18s for the Navy as soon as I graduated college did that for about a decade both operationally in combat as well as an instructor role teaching the new students and you know we did witness something while we were flying in our Jets but you know we were doing it under we witnessed it in the context of our just everyday flying in our missions

01:09and what year was it that you witnessed this so we started seeing these in 2014 was the earliest that I know 2013 late 2013 early 2014. and could you describe what was the very first experience yeah so uh for me personally the experience was simply just uh flying out to the area like I would any other day and instead of seeing an empty airspace with just my wing person or another Squadron doing something a different block they're all sudden a lot of different radar contacts which is immediately a problem because you know we could be hitting one of those or someone working in our area and this was happening because we upgraded our radar the best we could tell we were in a earlier radar called the apg-73 and we had come back from deployment we ended a maintenance phase it's called we kind of do a little bit less flying upgrade the Jets if we need

02:02to do any long lasting maintenance and and we upgraded to the APG 79 which was a much better radar and what is the difference in the capabilities of the upgraded radar system versus the original system so you know kind of practically speaking it's like going from an analog TV essentially to like an OLED it's you know a digital modern Tool uh compared to more of like an analog uh classical radar that has more limited range and has uh less ability to track multiple targets and things of that nature so just generally speaking we would expect expect to see you know more objects if there were any out there or smaller objects but um there shouldn't have been any objects out there and so how far offshore are you when this is all going down our working area start about 10 miles off the coast and then it goes out you know 100 or 250 miles or so although we

02:53don't usually use those Far Eastern areas but we would only see them over the water so they would really only be in our working areas um maybe slightly you know in between the working area of the land but never over the land sometimes Over The Bays that are in the area that are quite large but never just kind of zoom in West over land or anything like that and is this restricted airspace it's not so that's a tricky question for us operating in a military operating area it is not restricted in the sense that you have to be there's only one person allowed in there you could have these little Cessnas kind of bumbling in there but they would get called out pretty quick both from the kind of air traffic control agency that's working out there as well as f-18s and the other um aircraft that may be working out there but in a broader sense when we

03:45look at it in relation to our air defense identification Zone which is essentially a band of air space that surrounds our entire country if you are uh if your flight path originates out over the water outside of that it is and you proceed into that eight is into our controlled airspace then you do have to essentially have permission to enter that airspace it's not a restricted airspace like a traditional bombing range but it is protect airspace it's our it's our Coastal layer so you have this upgraded radar system and what are you detecting so on the radar really what we can learn from that is essentially the kinematics of the object so where is it essentially and you know what directions are going how fast is it going things of that nature we can't necessarily make up the shape or things of that nature so it's a representation it's like a a block on

04:37our screen to show that information and so when we see that on our radar um we can tell you know where it's located you know perhaps what's located around if there's other objects we're detecting how fast it's going what direction it's pointed in what direction it's traveling in so we call that velocity Vector so if we see this this essentially a little circle I have a tail coming off of it and that that tail kind of represents the nose of the vehicle at least as its flight path is going and so with that you know we would typically see an aircraft just kind of drug dealing along with a straight line taking occasional turns um but these objects had a little bit um more of a I don't say random but more um less controlled uh flight path that velocity Vector would kind of jump around a bit more uh they would not proceed in like a perfectly straight

05:29line as you would imagine like a a flight navigation computer would take you right it takes you from A to B in the straightest line possible these objects seem to kind of be moving in a direction that was not a straight line but generally proceeding in that direction and so they would kind of be Meandering slightly but moving in that general direction both three-dimensionally and horizontally so winding around going up going down so they're not on a flat plane and they're not going in a straight line so I don't want to draw too many firm statements like that because we would see them being flat too we'd see them perfectly stationary up there regardless of the wind really yep wow so what kind of wind are you talking about oh gosh I mean at altitude you can have anywhere up to 120 knots of AirSpeed which is what is that in miles

06:18per hour it's about 130 140 miles so they're completely stationary with 140 mile an hour wind correct how would something do that that's confusing to me as well uh even if we had something that could just burn that much energy right like if you had a sphere surrounded by little Rockets right just imagining something right now okay and if you wanted to keep that perfectly stationary right against um gravity you could just fire all the rockets at the bottom really fast and hopefully keep it flat right right it's gonna have tiny little variations and then if you have wind hitting it and all this you could potentially have those Rockets try to counter it but it would never be perfectly still and wins like that because the wind's not perfectly still either right exactly it changes and varies it does so it's almost like it's the wind it's not even really

07:02fighting the wind it seems you know it just seems like it's it's just there in a way wow so the first time you see these things what are your thoughts yeah the first time really was well you know what is this right it's not a UFO or something mysterious at this point it's at what we're thinking at this point we see on the radar is just well our radar is broken right um these perhaps don't represent physical objects yet because we hadn't you know visually seen these or seen them on our camera yet and so you know we kind of like hey you know what's going on here you know is anyone else seeing this kind of thing but not really like investigating it right it's just kind of like all right there was stuff out there but maybe next time we'll take a look but the way our systems work when we have all this all these contacts on our radar

07:51and if we kind of just select one out with our little cursor there all our sensors go to it our flear goes to it which is our camera system all their weapons they have like their own little eyes in some sense and they all look in that direction and So eventually you know someone had one of these selected and flew close enough so that as they look at their flare system their camera they could see something that was at the spot represented on the radar right so there was something there so they were seeing it visually with their own eyes not this point just on the the flear the flare system and so that's a it's a regular camera and also an infrared camera and so typically we'll roll around in infrared just because it returns a better image typically so so yeah you know it didn't look like an object they were seeing on the Fleer

08:37just looked like a source of ir energy in a sense almost as if someone was shining a flashlight but something had to be there to be reflecting that energy or creating it so at this point to answer your question now we're like okay this isn't just an error in our radar this is perhaps you know we're thinking this is real we have to really respect this as like a safety hazard now even if it's just a small you know I I you know however a small ribbon of tinfoil right like that suck down the engine can still take out an aircraft right so we have to be very respectful of that look at mylar balloon type thing potentially right yeah but how fast are these things going so sometimes stationary right sometimes they would be going around 0.6 to 0.8 Mach which is at altitude about you know 240 to maybe 330 knots you know around there so somewhere in the range of an

09:29airplane yeah in a fighter aircraft would be kind of flying around at those air speeds except sometimes they would be perfectly stationary as well right so it's not exhibiting any sort of patterns that you've recognized in the past uh no they have actually so although with the stationary no right correct with a stationary no with the Meandering kind of flight path no but I would also see them essentially fly what we call a racetrack pattern and essentially what that means is they fly in a straight path and then they do like a 108 degree turn in a certain direction then they fly a straight path then turn again you know so that's what we call a racetrack pattern as opposed to a circular holding pattern we did witness racetrack patterns in fact I think there's been some cases off the West Coast just the past couple weeks where people have also been

10:19observing objects flying in racetrack patterns high altitude with lights so I do recognize that behavior but I don't necessarily that mean I don't necessarily think that means we have to attribute it to normal behavior necessarily that type of flight path is important because it's a very efficient way to fly right if you have to maintain the position in a certain area you want to minimize how much you're turning because anytime you're turning in an aircraft you're using more energy than if you're just flying straight and level and so by having that racetrack pattern it's an efficient way of of holding in a position by maximizing straight and level time and minimizing your turn time and how long would these things stay up there for so from my experience from our experience and again we weren't studying these but they were always out there you

11:05know they're all out there when we took off we'd see them and then we go to land they would still be out there like every day every day every day every day so you guys go from not having any idea that these things are out there to upgraded radar system to seeing them every day yeah what is the thought like what how are you feeling when these like is there uh an evolution of the thought pattern of how you're addressing these things and thinking about them initially you're thinking they're errors when do you start getting a thought the like what is what the [ __ ] is this thing yeah so that happened when we visually saw one and the first time we visually saw one uh the object was directly at what we call that entry uh point of the area so you know that box that I told you about in the sky that starts 10 miles off the coast there's a particular GPS

11:59you know location and altitude where incoming traffic will fly in and outbound traffic will fly in the exact same spot but uh will fly out a thousand feet lower um there were two aircraft from my Squadron vfa 11 and we flew or excuse me they flew took off as a flight of two uh that means they're essentially flying into formation like this and as they hit the area one of these objects went right between the aircraft the lead uh air crew saw the object um the dash 2 aircraft crew did not which is not surprising because they're usually you know you're very focused on flying formation you're just staring right at that aircraft the lead really has actual leeway to look around so uh he saw it and you know he immediately came back I have to assume he didn't have it on his radar because he wouldn't have flown through this object at the working at the entrance Point

12:50um he flew he turned around flew back landed and I was in the ready room when he come back and you know he had all his gear on which typically is not a good thing uh because you want to get that stuff off as fast as possible so usually means you know there's a problem of some nature uh and you know he was just sitting there saying hey you know I almost hit one of those damn things and we all knew what he was referring to even though we didn't necessarily have a name for just because we were seeing these so much um and he described it you know he described it just as a black or dark gray Cube and that Cube was inside of a clear translucent sphere uh and essentially the the Apex or the corners of that Cube best you could tell uh were touching uh that inside of that sphere and that description mirrors many of the descriptions that people have had of

13:38these whatever you want to call them whether they're calling them uaps now for some strange reason UFOs is a I don't know does it have a dirty connotation to it as it tainted because of so many crazy people talk about UFOs is that what it is it does come with a lot of assumptions baked yeah it baked in that's yeah so that's something but whatever it is that is a design that people have reported seeing before that this translucent sphere and this Cube can you see through the cube not to my understanding no so it's some sort of solid black Cube that's inside this translucent sphere and it's just floating around and flying around the sky so you know that's that's a good point is it floating around is it flying around it's doing both which is strange right because you could think of that description okay that's kind of some kind of weird balloon maybe with stuff

14:33in it and that's that's certainly you know one way if you just view that angle of it then it it seems explainable but when that you know the balloon-like object starts cruising down at you know 0.8 Mach you know that that nullifies that particular um idea and you'll see you'll see that a lot where it's not just like that one picture that one Behavior it's really kind of to zoom out a bit and look at everything in relation to each other and say okay why is this weird you know okay it was hanging out in a racetrack pattern that's not exotic but when you you learned it was doing it for you know perhaps 13 hours 13 hours you know perhaps they were out there all the time you know so you know I land and I go back and we weren't on a a um Intel mission to analyze these right we're going to do our training it's very expensive 30k an hour to fly

15:19these things right so really the only time we can put energy into looking at these things when we're kind of transiting back and forth or waiting for a fight to start uh and so you know it's never like a dedicated analysis one of the problems I've had is that you know people haven't wanted to look into and to study this topic and people ask me all the time okay you know what were you seeing on the jet what are you seeing in the radar I want to be able to tell them that there was a great thing that we saw but the F-18 is not a scientific tool right we only get presented certain amount of information uh when all the sensors essentially filter all um all the data out so that we can prosecute the targets and do our job it's not some type of like analog you know information we receive so you know just because say something is showing

16:06jamming on my radar from one of these objects doesn't mean the object is executing you know electronic warfare to jmi Jet it just means that you know it's doing something to our radar signal and when it comes back you know our jet is processing it like it's ew so we need to get proper scientific tools to do an analysis on these objects instead of basing you know a lot of our analysis right now just on tools of war that aren't built for that right um how long can you guys stay up in an F-18 if we're dog fighting about an hour if we're holding at 0.6 to 0.8 mock you know like I describe them as doing somewhere maybe around like two two and a half hours maximum and you think that these things are up there for far longer than that so how big was this thing when this guy saw it so it's very difficult to tell in the air but because they were flying in

16:58formation we could make some estimated guesses essentially and that's what we did when we talked about it afterwards right so the aircraft were about 100 feet apart this thing you know they estimate it essentially split the section which means it went more or less right down the middle but slightly closer to lead which would put it somewhere less than 50 feet you know on average if they're about 100 feet um you know and then he so he essentially used that that size reference to say Hey you know this might have been somewhere in like the five to Fifteen you know foot diameter it's you know not a tight guess but that's the best we could come up with and what is it like like what what's the atmosphere like when you go back to the base are you allowed to discuss this this is something that's openly talked about is this something that you get ridiculed for

17:48it's just you know like you would expect any group of you know dude and dudettes you know hearing about this they just kind of you know do the normal reaction like anyone else and the to kind of you know make the jokes and then kind of get back to work essentially because you know we're just so busy at this time right we're getting ready for war like it for a lot of us this is the the Apex of our creator sends to get ready for deployment you know and it's kind of like the Long Blade gets cut in a sense in a fighter Community like that it's very much a trust based organization so you know no one's out there looking to like make a big deal out of something that's completely irrelevant you know in our eyes to our day-to-day operations other than that safety risk that's really like as much as we could process it so yeah that was ridicule but I don't think it was

18:35um I want to say it was like over the top or emotionally damaging but you know it made it clear it wasn't something that like you know we were gonna like put serious thought and energy into you know hey yeah stay away and you know let me know how you're doing that next fight essentially and when you discuss this how many other people came forward with similar stories it was less about people coming forward because everyone was just like well yeah of course we see them out there like at this point when we it was almost a safety issue at this point um well let me back up at first you know as soon as people you know the joke subsided when people eventually flew in the jet with upgraded radar and saw themselves right so you know it dwindled down where everyone was aware of this and it was just a safety hazard um but when we almost had the mid-air

19:16that kind of upped the Andy right because um we were kind of getting pissed at this point because you know the high probability answer was that this was some type of some type of classified program of our own making that had perhaps just started operating um in an area they weren't supposed to for whatever reason uh that was you know that was kind of our assumption and so we submitted a safety report because of that near midair uh a hazrat or Hazard report which is essentially a a notice that goes out to the whole Fleet that says you know this is a potential Hazard that could cause a loss of an aircraft um and you know it was due to us almost hitting an unknown object of Unknown Origin uh and that's how it continued for a while and there was a number of has reps about that about near misses uh eventually they put out what's called a no Tam or noticed the Airmen

20:07which is a published um it's published on a federal website which essentially lists things like hey the runway lights are down or you know they're working on this Runway or this area is closed for for something and we had one in our local area that said you know caution for the unknown objects working in our our operating areas um we just don't know what they are essentially so that's just kind of where it stagnated at at that point as far as you know resolution that's got to be a very bizarre feeling you're you're flying around in these Jets preparing for deployment and you see things that are if not unexplainable haven't been explained yet it just didn't fit into our framework right even if we look at so you know when we really kind of were trying to Hash it out in the Squadron it's you know so okay what could these be and even the classified you know

21:03drone thing and I I'm not even going to consider all the things that have happened since then but even at at this time you know the Drone thing didn't make sense to us for a number of reasons one of those is you know why right why are you know why do we have potentially hundreds or or more you know small drones that can perform better than anything we've seen just hanging out you know for years off the coast and is there a visible method of propulsion that's coming from these objects no what about a heat signature no so yeah so there's no there's no plume of of heat coming out the back there's no propellers there's no Wing surfaces that we've seen and when you're looking at it are you looking at in through some sort of an infrared that will detect heat you don't see anything usually through infrared yeah and so you know it'll it'll come back as either a white

21:51Hut or a a dark Hut which means you know black color is represents heat hut wood is hot just the it's essentially if we're looking at like an object against a blue sky you know if that thing's producing heat then it's going to come out white and white hot right so if I see a white object it's going to be a hot object and the sky is going to look what's that word Hut you're using h-o-t-h-o-t oh hot like the temperature hot okay yeah okay A little New England accent coming out no it's okay I'm from New England I just thought I thought it was something else I thought it was like a technical term yeah um so yeah you know and I say that just to say that um you know it would just be like either all like completely one temperature essentially right it wasn't like the skin of an aircraft you could see it was just kind of like an emission of ir

22:34energy like a flashlight right sometimes most of the time it would be cold uh it was like a cold object so it didn't appear to actually be emitting heat uh I there were times when they did appear to be emitting as a hot objects as well uh so we did see both so I don't know what to make of that was there a difference in the way they're moving when it was exhibiting Heat not that I not that I know you know I don't want to say no but we just didn't look at it deep enough to say that at the time but whatever it was doing it wasn't exhibiting any of the characteristics that you would normally expect from a jet or a drone or something that had some sort of a visible method of propulsion yeah wow so when these things are happening every day and all these different Pilots are experiencing them every day this is essentially just from the moment of

23:312014-ish when this new radar system gets implemented so you had one sense of what was out there and then all of a sudden you have these new systems and now you're like whoa this is littered with these things yeah what is that like what is that like what for you personally what does that feel like you know it's discomforting we spend a lot of time and energy on the most basic aspects of flight in a sense right because if you can't just operate safely right you can't come back and land and manage your fuel and not bust through altitudes and all that you can't do all the other stuff right and so we're very particular on those type of details it so to have someone operating that area would be a massive oversight so it was you know in a sense we kind of at least I felt a bit let down right it was like you know someone should be willing to look at

24:20this and deal with this problem you know it if it was going to constantly it was not that it was constantly getting laughed at it's just it was we always had more bigger fish to fry essentially right which I respect and I understand but um it doesn't mean we completely ignore that right and we have to do more than just um you know we have responsibility I think as aviators when we're up there to report really what we're seeing because we're on the front line of what we can see up there and if you know we don't have um the the command or Operational Support to you know tell the truth about what we're seeing up there then you know things have to change and the ramifications of what these things possibly could be how much does that weigh on you because if these things are from another world or from the ocean or From Another Dimension or

25:07what you know fill in the blank whatever you think it could be that alone has got to be very weird to experience because this is not something that's being openly discussed so you're just flying around out there you get this new equipment and then all of a sudden you're like hey there's some stuff out here that we have no knowledge of and it's moving in a way that we really can't explain what is that like we Denver really appreciate it at the time really because you're so Mission focused you're so Mission focused and the point when we kind of left our Squadron we left for deployment in 2015. and so this was still happening it was it was prior to the point that they started putting that notice out the Airmen that no time out so they had still not even got to the point to have that General notice oh it was just people sending out the occasional Hazard

25:59reports and left from an individual Squadron and then we left for deployment um well excuse me we left for um we left for workups first I should say so let me let me backtrack a little bit as we get ready for deployment we have our date where we leave but then about six months prior to that we're gone to the aircraft carrier and a different training command or um training areas to essentially get ready for that deployment and practice like we play so right we start going with a boat we live on the boat we start doing tactics off the boat um and we left to go down to the coast of Jacksonville Florida uh on a event where we essentially do exactly that we fly out on the aircraft carrier and we do a number of tactical missions to simulate that we are in an operational theater um and honestly it's more dangerous and likely difficult in a lot of cases than

26:51the actual combat deployment you know we're deploying or we're preparing for every eventuality air-to-air combat you know rescue missions everything but of course you know not everything gets exercise when you get out there so it's actually it's much more dangerous and pretty intense um and so that's what we're getting ready to go do and then we left and we did that um and when we got down down that area from Virginia Beach you know we noticed that these objects were down there as well um we didn't know whether they you know came with us or whether they're already down there but you know once we started flying off the boat you know about I don't know 1500 miles or so south of Virginia Beach you know there they were again um and it was it was in my Squadron again when the um the video that's known as the gimbal video now um that when that was recorded we were

27:38on that work up cycle out in Jacksonville we should play the gimbal video Jamie will you uh please pull that up um because I want you to kind of uh give us an understanding from your own expertise like your technical understanding of what we're looking at yeah so here it is is this so this is uh this is Fleer footage yep so this is when I say Fleer uh this is what I'm referring to and uh right in the middle of the top of screen you see IR infrared so that's that infrared mode where we're seeing heat right now um we are in Black Hut so that means objects that are darker are hotter so this object right in the middle uh is putting heat out and right now it's it appears to be rotating is that what it was doing there yeah exactly so we do see this object grow in me it looks like a gimbal that's why it's called that thing I didn't name it uh

28:36but we do we see the object essentially rotate from what looks like a horizontal position here those lines above it represent the Horizon so it's essentially parallel there it goes and it's hard to make out the shape of this thing but it seems almost like a disc with like a a crown on the top and the bottom yeah kind of like it looks like almost like a little a little bit of energy coming out from the the poles there if you will that's kind of how I describe it I see like a little bit of the dark you know heat emanating from there or that the energy as I call it and is there any way from this video from this uh equipment to detect how large this thing is uh there is so um the velocity Vector in the middle there can be set to a particular size and that size correlates to a particular length so that in a dog fight if you have um you know you're behind a guy and you

29:33you essentially his wingspan is equal to the length of those two lines on that circle with the lines coming out you see that's the velocity Vector then you know how far away he is right so it's kind of like an analog thing that's not super relevant like in Modern Age but yes there is I don't know however what that is set to in this one so I can't like make that calculation for you right now now I know some people who've attempted to debunk this and debunk even the rotation of this object what how do you know that that object is rotating um definitively well so we don't right we don't necessarily definitively know it's rotating at the end of the day right we have evidence that it is but um I don't have definitive evidence that you're a conscious human being on those side of the table of me either but you know I mean like we just don't have that

30:22information so you only have video footage and in the video footage it appears right now in relation to where it sits on the clouds that it has rotated yes so you know we can also we can also see if you if you uh and I know it's been done people have created models out there uh that you know essentially look at the clouds and they they draw out a flight path that this could be at and the only variable is essentially how far away the object is and that flight path obeys you know an equation that can be observed pretty readily when you know you build the little model and essentially if you're at you know six miles or so the object is proceeding a direction and then when it starts to rotate as as the aircraft described it climbs and reverses directions so you can't quite make that out but when you when you when you actually model it out you can see that at these

31:16ranges it does what was was claimed and we're kind of skipping a little bit of storage so maybe I should back up okay so you know when we observed uh when the when this object was observed um the air crew essentially saw it on what they call a situational awareness page and so that is a God's eye view of all the um sensor data and everything else that our Jets and other Jets uh put out right and so we can put cursors on and move around select stuff and what the air crew described during this video verbally is a formation of objects and then the gimbal object so what happened was you know we had all gone out on an air-to-air training Mission during this workup cycle off of the aircraft carrier the Theodore Roosevelt uh again we're off the coast of Jacksonville Florida and you know there's like four or five or six you know red Fighters which are

32:09our own guys or gals acting as um the enemy and then we go up and act as the the blue Fighters and go do our tactics um I was part of the flight we all flew up there when we kind of run out of gas during the fight you kind of just return by yourself and if you still have gas you continue the fight type of thing um so we don't always fly home together in this case the air crew from the gimbal video you know they knocked it off and started flying back to the boat we don't go like directly back to the boat when we run out of gas it seems counterintuitive but we have to wait for our Landing time uh we can't just come back and land earlier so it doesn't really matter where we are as long as we're nearby and we just slow down to what we call our Max endurance speed right so we just kind of can cruise around putt along out there and just

32:56hang out until it's our time to land um and so you know while they were doing this they noticed that there was a group of contacts on their situation awareness page again from their radar and they're like you know maybe this is like a penetration test because they'll launch aircraft from the coast uh you know like old old Fighters or you know just things that can move relatively quick but you know not necessarily there it engages in a dog fight to see if we can detect them and intercept them in time and things of that nature part of the overall training and so when they saw these objects that's what they thought this was and so they started flying over to it um and they got you know they got about you know six to seven eight miles away six to eight is what the air crew told me uh they didn't want to get any closer because it was night time at this point

33:42they couldn't see the object which is why they were only in the IR mode um and they essentially you know they checked out for a bit and then circled a bit and then flew back essentially as it was time for their recovery uh but what they saw was you know you saw the gimbal object that we saw in the film but there's also there was also a formation of like four to five I might say six I don't remember exact number somewhere in the four to six range um objects that were flying in a wedge formation so essentially like a triangle without a base um and those objects were kind of proceeding along the same line as the gimbal uh for my recollection the gimbal was you know slightly behind that formation an offset below it and so that formation essentially kind of just turned in in I'll call it left-hand turn in a normal radius of turn to slightly less

34:31like but it's called they got all jumbled up so they just started turning instead of like a clean turn where they all kind of stay in the same spot kind of a big sweeping thing instead of that it was a lot tighter and they kind of kind of broke down didn't look like they were in formation anymore in a sense you know they were kind of scattered about I can't tell which one's which really out there on the radar looking at it so I don't know if it came back in the same formation exact same position but when they rolled out 180 degrees out basically reverse their Direction you know they kind of got back into similar if not the same formation proceeding the opposite direction during this time the gimbal object you know again proceeding called left to right trailing this formation while it kind of executed its radius of turn the

35:15gimbal just essentially was continuing in a straight line and then as it like pinged off a wall just reverse direction to follow that formation you know once they had started flowing in the opposite direction so no just stopped stopped in midair and went backwards I won't even say stop they just seemed like it just like never stopped it just went ping you know wow you know and that was that's how we saw from the the situational awareness page from looking down right and so when you lift that up and look at it from the side you know what that ping motion looks like is a U-turn vertical U-turn to go in the opposite direction all right so it climbed to reverse its turn to flow in the opposite direction within about 500 feet which is very tight turn uh I think an F-18 needs like 6 000 feet or four thousand feet to do a turn like that wow

36:07so there's nothing that we have as a drone that's capable of moving like that so yeah again if you just look at one particular case it's like all right so something climbed vertically and between the opposite direction like that's not the sexiest thing in the world but then let's look back in context and say okay we're you know 350 miles off the coast in protected airspace around an aircraft carrier you know with only fighter jets in the air and then all of a sudden there's a formation of small objects just kind of cruising around you know for a period of time that's unknown performing the least fuel efficient turns possible Right like there's no concern for how fuel efficient that turned is that's not that's like the least efficient way to do a turn and so how is an object hundreds of miles off the coast you know with apparently no concern for fuel

36:56um hanging out next to our carrier and without the FLIR footage you would have never been able to see these things correct yeah um when you report this what is what's the reaction like how how does that go yeah because we are practicing like we play at this point getting ready for war we were doing like a formal Intel debrief after our flights right it's kind of like hey we intercept these guys and did that another thing and so the the air crew who recorded it were going down into that room to debrief it um and someone told me like hey you know your friend there got something interesting on the on the Fleer the time you know maybe you should go take a look or something so because I had already landed my gears off you know and so uh waiting to debrief essentially and so I'm like I'll go check it out so I walked down there you know it's like the

37:47other side of the ship uh go into classified space all the Intel folk are in there and they're queuing up the video the tapes to watch uh the Fleer footage and here's an interesting thing too right so the situational awareness page that screen I told you about with radar data that's kind of in a screen that's you know chess level and then there's a screen here screen here at eye level on either side and if you record we put the flear here a standard procedure and the situational awareness page down here and then we'll have a radar up here or any of our other systems if you record this green with the FLIR you record the S8 page automatically it's part of the same tape so what's interesting is that is that's what we watched when we were in that Intel space you know I was able to see the flare footage and that's what you know we just watched and then the

38:41situational awareness page with the radar data showed that as well which you know showed the fleet and showed that movement I described those are you know if that flare footage exists then the radar data for that event exists as well all right because it's filmed the same time so someone would have to specifically split it off to get the um the gimbal video out without the radar data right so so the gimbal video was leaked is that what happened I don't know the exact mechanics my understanding it was that's the way it could be described but it was done within channels that um that doesn't make it you know an illegal activity but I honestly don't know the mechanics of how it was released so somehow or another it gets out there and it gets online but the situational awareness page and the radar data does not you only get the flare

39:31footage correct why do you think that is I think there's good reasons for that you know I don't think it's overly mysterious you know our radar sensor systems are our primary sensor out there they're how we employ our weapons and that's all fine I think that's completely reasonable to not have that released like because it's top secret because it would be some sort of a breach of security yeah giveaway like how well our radar Works essentially right but with that being said you know there's still ways you can take that information and declassify it and just put the raw data out there in a sense like the kinematics right like okay this all we're detecting objects that move like this you know there's no location there's no like specific you know there's specifics have been kind of fleshed out there's like mathematical tools that can do that with like you

40:14know Precision to certainty so there are ways to declassify that data um one of the efforts that I'm doing at the American Institute of Aeronautics and astronautics with the UAP community of interest that I've helped put together is essentially preparing teams to do that you know analysis we have a team of of Engineers Aerospace and and others that have you know over 300 years of nasty experience you know at least that are working to put together you know engineering and scientific UAP sensing manuals that can be updated yearly so that the information that we learn going forward in a productive manner um isn't something that we need to necessarily get disclosed from the government in order to move forward on [Music] so when you're watching the Fleer footage and you're looking at the situation awareness page you're seeing these objects you you've already had

41:09experiences with these things by then so give it with something yeah we hadn't seen the gimbal yet though so this is different than the other objects that you've seen yeah so the gimbal object at this time what is a gimbal by the way a spinning top that's what I think of oh okay yeah and essentially you know and that induces a force that wants to keep it upright essentially right so is it spinning you poke it and it kind of goes back to the center I you know again I don't know where the names came from but okay um but this particular shape of UAP you would not witnessed before had you heard of something like this before no no and let me let me say it's not necessarily the shape that well one gives it the name and even um is what we were analyzing right because what we see in a video is IR energy and that could be anything is you know

42:02is there a plasma fuel there but the surface is smaller or is there some type of energy out there that or heat that is masking the shape of the object we don't really know the size or the make the physical shape of the object from that that image well you're just getting the signature so when everyone is observing this how many people are in the room with you when this is going down yeah there's yeah it could maybe like 15 or so a lot of Intel people of you know a handful of aviators and then uh of course the air crew what's the reaction everyone's just kind of looking around each other just kind of like you know holy [ __ ] like you know there was there was no like oh that's prosaic or that's right there was no there was no conclusions drawing but everyone just kind of like had no idea what it was and the people that were in there had they

42:46also used this upgraded equipment so they were all aware that there was something going on out there like this is a this is a narrative that's being discussed all the aviators yeah yeah so everyone kind of knows that you're not alone out there it's a good question I don't even know how many of the Intel folks knew at this point but I mean at least our Squadron Intel you know guy did and I know a handful of others but I honestly don't know how many of the Intel folks were aware at this point is there a discussion about you know how much of this can you talk about openly like is everyone going huh like what what is it like yeah pretty much that huh right and kind of just waiting for someone to provide some you know leadership on this so like what the [ __ ] what leadership is available if an alien spacecraft shows up well apparently they

43:32called The Admiral right so that they're like let's see what Admiral thinks and so I kind of like kind of slowly walked into the shadow so no one kicked me out you know right because you want to know yeah I want to see what his reaction at least was you know and um he came down a couple minutes and what he watched it for like five six seconds and just turned around was like just walked out whoa yeah so I was like I think he's he's clearly seen this before yeah yeah yeah that's right that would immediately be my thought if he's just going on like unless he's so [ __ ] jaded the guy has seen something so might be worse holy [ __ ] yeah maybe you need to retire buddy you've seen too much [ __ ] but I would imagine if if that's his reaction that this is something that he's observed before so fast forward a couple

44:21years we'll come back but you know I at this point talked to um bearish people on the hill and had been involved um with some people that had looked into this and one of them mentioned to me you know hey you're you're um your inclination was correct you know after he saw a video he essentially came back and called us to report that these [ __ ] objects were still you know in his airspace and were looking for some type of answer what to do with about him wow and was there any sort of conclusion like is there any sort of protocol that you that gets established afterwards to what to do when you encounter these things so to to answer that in the the worst way possible you know we walk back to our ready room and of course then we're all like you know talking about it and like what's this because we hadn't we've seen the other

45:10objects like from the best we could tell the formation represented the objects we were used to seeing off these codes but the gimbal was new and you know now we're building theories because it's like well this is different you know we're starting to get a little more interested and you know essentially someone just came in and just said that was enough essentially you know stop talking about it yeah and it wasn't like it was you know here's here's an NDA or anything like that and it wasn't really even anyone in a position to order that if they wanted to but it was it was still it was just like all right you know just another weird thing here at this point and again we're in a super stressful time right right 18-hour days you know it's um a stressful time but yeah you know I look back and I I feel like I have to defend that decision

45:49because it's like why weren't you more curious why weren't you more into it you know or why didn't you think to explore this part of it but um yeah we were just busy we were just so focused on what we were doing and trying to do it the best we could when you guys are alone like if you're having dinner or you're just alone having a beer does do these things come up in conversation yeah absolutely especially over a beer yeah are there more different shapes and more different types of these objects the observations off the east coast we talk to other people in other squadrons with similar capabilities and they were describing it the same way the Cuban sphere same color same you know everything and does that seem indicative of things that you only see on the East Coast so far as I know you know that again there's no I wish there was a

46:44better place to answer these questions but part of the reason I don't have answers is because we've just refused to look at this for so long right there's just never been data collections so far as you know I know and so you know that would be these would be questions we could answer that was if we had started looking at this 20 years ago perhaps that we could be answering now but you know we have to collect a lot of data um and you know it's interesting because we have really two ways of doing that right there's there's leveraging the world's best sensors and things of that nature through the US government and of course all that is always going to be classified and it's always going to be difficult um and then on the other hand there's really Discovery right I mean this we don't have to just wait for the government to tell us you know what's

47:28right and what's wrong what's real on this topic right we we are at an age now where Tech technology and democratization of tools essentially and access to space you know is is moving it so you know we can verify and move the topic forward without being hand fed perhaps from the people with the world's greatest sensors that makes sense yeah it does make sense um how many different types of these objects have you heard other people discuss there's the the circle that has this the cube inside of it there's this gimbal thing which you don't really necessarily know what the shape is but have people witnessed eyewitness accounts other than Commander David fraver described something that he said looked like a Tic Tac and I believe he said it was somewhere in the neighborhood of like 25 feet wide is that what something sounds right um

48:20so there's three right you don't know what the gimbal the physical shape of it is then you have the this this the circle with the cube inside of it and then you have the Tic Tac are there more probably you know it's it's have you talked to someone who's seen others on the East Coast you know we were typically seeing what I've described to you uh all up and down so even up in uh like the uh Patuxent River area outside of DC you know people were seeing them up there at the test pilot area uh on the west coast like you said I've heard the Tic Tac uh description you know multiple times um once kind of the work got out I think about the cube a bit and people were looking and paying attention I started to hear about those being observed in other areas such as the west coast and um and further Inland actually um around other bases but we still know

49:10necessarily if we're observing things um there because they're there because we just happen to have the sensors there right they could be in more places we're just not necessarily looking there so there's a huge aspect right now to Observation bias in 2017 it was kind of a milestone moment for UFO um just the discussion because the New York Times printed a story and once it was on the front page of the New York Times it was like okay this is a serious magazine or the serious newspaper and you have a serious discussion now about this thing that had been for a long time been ridiculed and then the Pentagon discusses it you start hearing people why do you think that's happening like what it what is it about this subject like it must have been for you in 2014 very bizarre when you have this new radar system that starts detecting these things now you

50:05get this understanding of the fact that these things are there all the time you just haven't been able to put eyes on them and you haven't had equipment that measured them accurately now you do and now there's this discussion of it in the New York Times what what do you think is at the end of the day I you know I wish I had an answer for you I don't but you know for my from where I'm sitting you know I I see a lot of people that seem to be paying attention more so now especially after that article came out myself included right I mean I was part of I was witness to it but you know just like everyone else I kind of just let it be part of my history until I saw that you know I I don't know why we are moving the conversation forward I've listened to you know Chris Mellon talk about it I've listened to Lou talk about it and you know it's very simple when I

50:59talk about it because it's very simple it's just there are objects out there that our aviators are almost hitting and for me whenever I you know I engage this topic it's always from that perspective of Aviation safety so it's never really like engaging on this like crazy ontological like wave right it's just it's me just working on a problem that I was trained for by the Navy I was trained to be an aviation safety officer right so I see the signs of the safety problem Brewing I you know people don't want to talk about it it's taboo right that's not how Aviation safety works it doesn't live in in silence in a cone like that you need to share Lessons Learned and the government gets it now the dod gets it that's why the air crew have a reporting mechanism now they can come back after their flight after they've seen one of these objects and

51:48they can report it and and you know I understand that reporting mechanism has an area where they can describe the shape of it so my hope is you know we can answer that question of yours once that data gets released I I hope it will at some point it's classified at the moment do you have any understanding of how often these things get reported I don't know how often they're getting reported my fear is that if aviators don't get feedback from the work you're doing they're going to stop reporting right if you just keep reporting a safety hazard every day and it's just data collection and nothing solves it then eventually you're just going to say what's the point you know right and let's do my thing and I've seen some Declassified pilot reports some of these were from the UAP task force report that came out last year and they're fasting the pilots are

52:34curious they're seeing things they don't understand right they're seeing these interesting objects massive winds they're seeing formations of objects flying around behaving the ways they don't understand and they're looking for more they're they're saying hey if you have any more questions you know please reach back to me on classified if you need to and my fear is that if they don't get that information back that engagement with people collecting that data it's going to taper off so you know I just wanted to make the plea that we consider that it's a two-way conversation with those air crew Christopher melon when I talked to him he was saying that there's a lot more data a lot more evidence out there that hasn't been released and his understanding of it is that what you're seeing is just the tip of the iceberg and that there's high resolution photos

53:23and videos and that some of it is you know for a lack of better word disturbing because you're looking at something that doesn't make any sense in terms of what we understand what's what's physically possible with the yeah you know I have some volunteers within the the AIA work that I do that you know have been in a position to do that right um now that again there's been a new reporting mechanism we're kind of moving into a new age with this um I can't I can't uh speak to all the data that may be out there for the past you know X years right um again comes with a lot of assumptions and a lot of um unanswered questions but from the new reports that they've started fresh with the Navy and I applaud them for you know standing up and taking the lead on that um the reports that we see is that you know this has continued to be a problem

54:16that is occurring the number of objects you know they seem to be increasing uh it seems to be happening everywhere we're looking you know so navy base on the west coast uh in other places in the U.S and on the East Coast are seeing yeah I'll just stop there for a minute I do occasionally it's such a squirrely subject man and I'm really fascinated by the fact that these sightings seem to occur on a regular basis over the ocean and uh Jeremy Corbell who has had um video leaked to him I use the air quotes leaked because I don't know exactly how this is happening or what why it's happening or why I I assume they're focusing on him because he's capable of releasing it in a very high profile way if he releases it people are going to pay attention but one of the videos is of a trans medium device something that is uh apparently someone

55:17in the military film this that it was flying above the ocean and then went into the ocean when you're seeing all these things they appear around the ocean why do you think that is well you know it's it's we're pretty blind down there at the end of the day right you know we don't we don't have um as good an essay I'll say and or as much presence in the ocean as we do in the air I would say um yeah we do have you know a lot of sensors and we can likely see certain things but um radiation electromagnetic radiation doesn't uh propagate very well through water like that so in a way it's kind of uh be a good place to hide I would suggest uh you know there's talks of hydrogen being a useful fuel source you know and of course plenty of hydrogen in the water but this is all just pure speculation I really don't know at the end of the day but when we I you know

56:18the video that you mentioned with that that kind of trans um medium Behavior went you know directly into the object like that um I'll just say that you know that is that is very unique to see objects like that you know people argue about the shape or or anything like that but even if you know these objects are coming from um call it call it a uh near pure threat right and they're still able to do these types of behaviors at the end of the day it really comes down to technological surprise right whether that's an adversary on Earth or whether that's you know something else it's the same process of understanding what the capabilities are so that you know come in 2024 2025 you know we don't have you know a surprise that we can't counter whether that's you know Hypersonic object flying around uh that happen to be UAP or they happen to be

57:09missiles right it's essentially the the same problem the problem is yeah we don't know if that's coming from an adversary or whether it's coming from an alien and so we don't know how to react whether this thing is observing us or whether it's things an actual physical I'm I uh I've used the word threat before and um for me as a pilot when an aircraft is flying around out there and they're not talking to me right like say they came into our my area and I'm the only one out there and there's an interloper that's that aircraft's a threat to me um it doesn't mean he has hostile intent necessarily but my aircraft could be lost if I have a mid-air if I start doing some tactics and I forget he's there and now I'm you know absorpting through his altitude so he's a threat very simply doesn't mean it's a bad guy or he's got you know explosives on his plane

57:59but it's the same way when I talk about these being a threat for aviators out there it is a safety hazard someone could die we could lose aircraft uh I don't think that these objects are displaying hostile intent out there but even just observation and collection of our you know electronic warfare our Communications our radar frequency all that information if it was a um an Earthly threat you know that would be very useful information that they could look the back engineer has there ever been any sort of design or discussion of a some sort of a craft that can operate in a transmedium way that can fly through the air and then go into the ocean nothing that I've you know seen that's been created really how would a propulsion system work that would go from the air into the ocean with based on what we understand about like the abilities that we have today sure

58:57um you know on the surface like to go from air to water isn't necessarily a complete challenge right like you can imagine something that can get dropped in the ocean and perhaps move around or some type of mini submarine that comes up and then launches a UAV right and flies away but just to be clear to people listening that's not necessarily what we're talking about we're talking about an object that is moving at a relatively you know quick pace and enters the water as if it wasn't there that's my is that what you understand yeah yeah so the way I understand it is it just just went right into the water and so you know that's that's incredibly interesting for a number of reasons you know propulsion in the air versus propulsion in the water is you know typically pretty different and once you start talking about high speeds underwater that kind

59:44of goes out the door you know high speeds underwater 200 miles an hour or higher uh is not like 200 miles in the air and so when I think of something that can operate in both the first thing I think of is that you know neither are concerned because of its its operating system whether that's air friction or whether that's you know the water drag that it would be exposed to that's like the first kind of like out there thought as far as how this could operate it would somehow be affecting you know the air or the water right the liquid around it to to move it around the aircraft or to you know negate the effect of all that Force right because moving underwater just so much pressure so much uh friction that it's just so hard to go fast did you watch that uh Jeremy Corbell documentary Bob Lazar Area 51 and flying saucers uh I did I did what did you think of that

60:37I it was interesting you know I I got a cool story for you here when I was a kid I was an avid Explorer of the internet uh and I had stumbled upon what I thought at the time was the coolest possible website ever as this guy selling all sorts of like radioactive rocks and like cool scientific equipment and I was like this is the coolest website like this is why the internet was built uh and you know fast forward you know many years later I learned that you know that was Bob's web oh United nuclear yeah oh wow I heard it it might have been in that movie actually and then or the documentary and uh yeah I was like holy smokes like that's that guy uh but you know the stories the story is fascinating um here's here's my only you know I don't want to say I believe or just believe because this is such an controversial area when people start

61:24like drawing these you know conclusions so um I want to be able to establish the ability to do real science on this topic right like I want to be able to you know get a material or to get a bit of information and have a real peer review process that is going to look at that information objectively without the stigma that UAP have had even Bob Store Right comes with you know people either you know hate it or love it it's very controversial at the end of the day you know data is data and if if we can you know perhaps get Element 115 or some other thing that could be used to do an analyst and we can write papers we'll have a process to take that forward and be able to say Hey you know here's now a flag in the sand that we can kind of move science forward on on this you know unique topic and if no one if the people that haven't seen the documentary

62:16what Ryan's referring to with element 115 is something that Bob talked about in the late 80s and what he describes is a reactor that uses this element called 115 that was theoretical in the late 80s but then proven in somewhere in the 2000s was it 2000 it was like 2009 or something like that but it was it was proven through a particle collider where they um they were able to detect it you know when they have these particles and they uh can detect them for a very short period of time but they know now for that it's not just theoretical this element 115 is an actual element in the first discussions that Bob Lazar had about this he claimed that there was a stable Supply a stable version of element 115 and that this element 115 was used to make some sort of a gravity field and that was the method of propulsion that these crafts were using and that they exhibited a

63:31method of of flight that is very similar to the gimbal the way he described it and this is again in the late 80s that this thing would be traveling and then it would turn and rotate uh vertically and that it would then travel in that would be somehow or another this element 115 with this reactor would create this some sort of a field that allows it to bend gravity and bend space and time around it and the way you described it is if the way it uses a propulsion system to say if you had an incredibly heavy bowling ball and you put in the middle of a mattress and it sort of pushes the mattress down like that's what this thing is doing to space and then yeah instead of like firing Flames out the back it's doing something with this element that's allowing it to travel in an incredibly fast way and when you listen to Commander David

64:30fravers to depiction of that Tic Tac object one of the things that's incredible is that they detected this object at more than 50 000 feet above sea level and then it went from above 50 000 feet to 50 feet in less than a second which is just Bonkers like who the [ __ ] knows what could do that with no visual propulsion system no visible no no understanding of like how this thing is moving around but the fact that Bob Lazar was describing that actual method of propulsion back in the late 80s it's it's trippy I just I wish I wish there was if he's a liar he's one of the best Liars of all time and what a great con he's been running because he's been telling the exact same story the exact same way for more than 30 years it's really crazy and you don't know what to think I mean I talked to the guy I had dinner with him

65:26and then I talked to him on the podcast and you know I like to think I have a fairly decent [ __ ] detector but I I'm I don't know I don't know I mean he's obviously a brilliant guy a legitimate scientist incredibly intelligent and I just he would have been called out and he kind of has about his education record but he explained that to me and I'll explain it to you afterwards like what he told me that he doesn't want discussed publicly but it's it's so strange that the way this guy was talking about these objects back in the late 80s is exactly how we're observing them behave today and that he was saying that the United States government had these things in their possession and they were attempting to back engineer them and they hired him a propulsions expert to try to figure them out so that's element 115. so when you are

66:24watching this documentary in him explaining this and talking about uh area S4 which is uh where he was supposedly working on these things like what what's your sense of that I I try to stay agnostic in a sense because I think probably like most people like I want to believe it yeah it's super interesting and yeah a very deep part of me just was like man I want all that to be true it's super cool um and so in a sense that's what kind of pushes me away from it you know um because I don't have any tools to to prevent that from taking over right like I don't have any data or anything other than just that but that's okay we've that's what we've dealt with I think in the past but you know I think and I believe and I hope that as we move forward we're going to be dealing with this in a new way right it's going to be um it's going to be about planning flags

67:25and moving the conversation forward with data and Science and there's some you know another reason again this could be happening now is that there's just better tools right our technology is getting better um we in sense have you know another non-human Intelligence on Earth with us right now right with our you know our advancement machine learning and artificial intelligence you know that those those tools might give us information insight into these behaviors in a way that we wouldn't obviously put together right that's what ml does best um and so I see I see great um I see great promise for us having a better understanding of some of these Mysteries kind of when we bring in that tool that show us things that we just you know our brains aren't well suited to find those patterns do you so part of the problem with all this stuff stuff is

68:14the fact that it's not openly discussed and I know that you were brought in um for a hearing no this is in front of Congress is that what it was so you know way back when when this kind of got kicked off I had a private meeting with members of the Senate armed service committee and Senate select committee on intelligence and what was that like pretty nerve-wracking I mean I was you know yeah so you know it was funny I you know I volunteered to do this in a sense and I was like listen I I realized that you know I'm active duty right now this is definitely not like you know I can't represent the Navy here or the military right I have to just try to speak as a citizen the best I can so I was like I'm not going to wear my uniform I'm just going to go as you know as Ryan not Lieutenant Graves hopefully um and I ended up getting a call at like 9

69:0630 10 at night the night before I was about to leave uh essentially saying get your get your uniform ready because you're now on orders to go up there to have that conversation and you'll be uh in uniform and this was like months before I'm getting out of the Navy so uh like my shit's all packed up you know like I'm like calling friends that like and some stuff I ship back home already you know like back up to New England I'm in Mississippi at this time so I'm calling my squad roommates at like you know 10 11 at night trying to like get uniform pieces to pass together oh my [ __ ] here's the worst part right so I'm in there's you know some very serious people in there one of them is a former Admiral and now he's a staffer essentially and like all the questions and you know we're having the whole conversation near

69:52the end he's like he's like so I noticed that you're missing a a ribbon or a uniform because I you know I had to have that rack right here and there's one you get like every time you kind of leave a squadron um they're no you know no big deal but I didn't have it it's just like the stores were closed I couldn't get it in time he's like did you leave your squadron did you leave your squadron on a bad note you know because I didn't have that metal oh no oh [ __ ] no but he was pretty cool about it but yeah that was probably the most stressful explain the whole thing that you didn't know you were coming in yeah pretty much I just told the story I just told you they loved it well I'm sure they're probably like thought it was funny that you were so nervous about it too yeah I mean you know I'm at a table not unlike this one

70:32but much bigger and I'm you know at the head of the table here and on your side just like all the dod folk and like executive branch representation and I'm on the other side is all the the SAS and intelligence folks and um I got essentially walked over um by a handful of Admirals that were in various roles from that point this was this was an unexpected part of my trip I was supposed to just go talk to them but part of me coming in uniform was that I needed to have a conversation at the Pentagon right prior to that to what to discuss and what not to no um at the time it was just kind of like to get you know a pre-brief essentially is how they described it but and that's all it was it was nothing nefarious they really just wanted to hear it from the horse's mouth um you know before they escorted me across the hill and what were the

71:19questions like what what was the nature of the discussion which one when you sat down in front of everyone um yeah big table I mean essentially you know what's the story you know what are you seeing and not unlike you know a lot of the things I told you about here you know did people ridicule you did they um you know people tell you not to talk about it there was a concern it seemed like from those from the non-dod folks that um they were wondering if there was any influence on me to you know either downplay or not talk about it so they and there was none you know to be clear but that was you know they questioned me on that but at the end of the day it was essentially you know they seem earnestly you know interesting getting the bottom of what we were seeing out there uh there seemed like a lot of they seem to ask a lot of good questions that uh

72:06couldn't be answered in that at that space in that classification level so you know they were having a follow-up conversation after I left but that was really the kickoff of you know meets speaking about this um in an official fashion right to like actual decision makers things of that nature versus Media essentially is there discussion about media was there a discussion about how you were allowed to talk about this or how much of this is classified so you know the whole boat situation right with gimbal it's people like all right we're done talk about this but you know there's that's not how classification works right there's neas and paperwork like so you know the short answer is no like this was never information that was classified like I never you know I I wouldn't have spoke about it if it was unclassified and yet I thought it was in inappropriately

72:57unclassified and could cause you know National damage or anything like that right I understood it was like a new thing but um I was I was in the least in my mind doing what I thought was best but it was not classified information um it was it was um it was not information at the time right it just it wasn't a thing now there's a program now there's a reporting program the UAP task force you know collects reports now it's a classified reporting program so I don't expect people that you know to be quote unquote leaking or are talking about it publicly anymore due to it being a real operation which is a good thing have you had any conversations with anyone at a high level that gives you an understanding of what they think these things are uh yes um you know uh not not to the specificity I think that you would like or anyone would like

73:46but you know there are efforts standing up within DOD with the error office with you know some of the intelligence authorization act language from last year and also this year um the language and the efforts that are being established to look into this are doing so under the context that there is a large category of other right that we just simply don't understand it's you know that we're not the systems are being designed and built and organizations aren't there to better understand you know the Chinese threat that might be off our Shores right like if that if that's identified then it gets routed to the proper place and then they'll go back to doing their job on the mysterious stuff that's still out there right so you know that's how the efforts are being organized right now and now what the output of that investigation is going to be whether

74:32it's you know aliens or any of the other million hypothesis is unknown at this point but it is the mysterious it's not the prosaic that they're establishing um channel for so it really is an unknown other than what Commander fraver described and what the equipment detected in terms of speed the movement of that thing and then another disturbing thing was that the object when it took off at extraordinary rates of speed after they had detected it and went to their cat point which is very interesting because they had a predetermined place where they were supposed to meet up and this thing went there like it could read their plans because they're intent maybe I you know I I don't have an answer for that it's mysterious right it's those points aren't like clock like super classified but like there's there's no logical reason for that you

75:30know an object like that to know where they're going in the future was is there any other instances of something exhibiting that kind of speed that you're aware of uh I hear lots of stories about that from other aviators I haven't personally like witnessed The Gunshot acceleration that you hear about what have you heard from other aviators um you know one of them was up by uh the Pax River the test pilot area I mentioned uh a friend of mine that was on the East Coast with me who who deployed and was used to seeing these objects uh was then in test pilot school and then stayed there as a test pilot without doing our mission uh you know off the Eastern seaboard and they had you know he had no object come up about 20 feet from his cockpit looks similar to what's been described off these coasts was there for four to five six seconds he's cruising that you

76:22know 350 knots you know somewhere in the teens the thousands you know 15 16 17 000 feet an object just stays there for you know a handful of seconds and then just like darts off like into the great beyond you know very quickly um and he's being monitored by a whole testing apparatus right like a little mini NASA with all the screens and the test Engineers because he's doing a real flight test um and they knocked it off you know the ATC the air traffic control didn't have any uh knowledge of that air traffic and you know the test people didn't see it either but he ended up reporting that through the UAP task force report um he did end up getting debriefed and was likely one of the 144 reports so I tell that to show that you know at least at the time it was working right like there was a real process we know that now because we've seen the evidence of

77:10it in the reports but um there's you know there's other cases of Pilots where they just you know they see something in the distance and it's there it's moving around ways they can't explain as they get closer just you know shooting off like a cannon and when I was telling you earlier about the UAP off the eastern coast that's kind kind of like the new generation but all the you know the the Aged aviators and the Navy you know they all had their own stories you know whether I mean not 100 but you know at least the ones that you know there are plenty that we're willing to talk about I'll say about that you know I can't say how many weren't but um so this is not a rare occurrence it would happen a long time yeah and this one that you were just describing where it was very close to the cockpit then took off was it the same thing the the

77:53translucent circle with this this Square inside of it what's the earliest known um sightings of that particular type of object so far as I know it's that 23rd early or late 2013 early 2014 back when we saw with the radar upgrade have you seen anything visually I haven't been able to see it so we would fly up to it people in our Squadron would like once of course we knew there was something there we'd try to fly up to it right and see it and you know our safety limit is 500 feet which is very close for us um and we train all the time to come to what is it called a merge where we fly right by another aircraft really close 500 feet is our safety bubble and then we execute a fight you know um and we're trained to look at their wings right and see if they're you know they have condensation clouding in the air above their wings to tell if they're

78:43pulling a lot of G right or if their flaps are Auto scheduling down right to say they're low energy and so even though we're going by at 1200 um essentially miles per hour relative velocity and it's really only a frame or two of information we can make a pretty decent assessment of that you know other fighter and what they're going to do and their weapon loadouts and everything right so we have these tools to tell us where to look so we're not just out there kind of gazing around all our sensors are pumped into our visor and so as we look around it shows us the object we have selected in a box where to look right on our visor no matter where we look so so as we come to this merge we have every you know expectation of having a successful merge and seeing this object right and then you know it wasn't there we'd still see it on the

79:28Fleer right we still see the energy emitting from that area but um nothing visually so would have wow so do you think that it's some of these things are not visually available I wish we just don't have enough data right like are they moving a little bit out of the way it's tough because again we can only go so slow even if we're like all the way back at like maybe 130 knots right still 150 miles an hour if that thing like was right in front of us and dropped down I mean I'd like to think that we still see it but it's it's just you know it's just not the right tool to be doing that type of analysis you know I mean we just couldn't see it so it doesn't mean that somehow they're deceiving us or does it mean that not all of them were physical objects we just don't have enough data to say that well I mean obviously this is speculation but

80:18if you guys are using this equipment out there overseas are you flying or or there are many people that are flying these types of aircrafts using this type of equipment over the continental United States in the Jets you mean yes yeah yes do they detect them there uh initially we weren't reporting them over the continental United States um however I have heard that you know essentially anywhere in F-18 you know that has these radar capabilities you know soon to be testing so we have them further Inland in places like that and so far as I know they've been experiencing them as well in Lynn Jesus so is it possible that these things have some sort of a cloaking mechanism or they're not visually available to like we can't see them because of the way their propulsion system works or whatever yeah I think there's a lot of different ways you know

81:13that you could be visually deceitful right like you can it doesn't have to be like a visibility cloak per se right but like I can think of like a lot of like tricky mechanisms that may make it very difficult to see something coming to emerge right even if it's just like uh you know something that can change polarity with electrical charge and like you know it makes it lighter darker object or something right like those windows um you know it's a physical object until you change polarity now you can see through the you know the object in a sense right um so there's there's trickery there you know that could be done and all the way from kind of basic trickery to advance you know invisibility science and physics with negative diffraction things of that nature but but we just don't know we just don't know how much has this changed the way you

82:01view our place on Earth in in the universe you know it certainly opened me up to all the assumptions that I think I had baked in from from birth in a sense and as I as I grew up that were kind of either baked into me or put into me or you know I put into myself that you know basically said anything outside of this this median channel here is is rubbish right in some sense it kind of I was I was middle middle of the road I guess you could say right like um it but this really kind of made me realize that you know our place in the universe and in the cosmos and and even here on Earth just might not be as um apparent as we think it is right like we and that doesn't sound very exciting but like we come in a place of confidence right we have this perception that uh you know we're the Masters of the Universe right we don't haven't seen

82:53anything else out there we imagine that there's other stuff but we have no evidence of it in a sense you know we are the the best thing that has ever been in the universe so to think that there's a lot of other stuff out there um for me personally it's it's really I'd say allowed me to to better explore that kind of um non-traditional mainstream you know thoughts in a sense right you know UAP wasn't something a group thinking about but after I kind of got over the skepticism and looked at it and you know just realized how much information was there um it made me wonder what else you know I haven't been paying attention to or what other small assumptions even if it's not something as exotic as UAP but what other scientific assumptions have we made or you know um economic or sociological scientific assumptions that we've made that just

83:47kind of pushed Us in the wrong direction but it's right enough that hasn't caused you much of a problem yet um have you entertained the possibility that there are things that are native to Earth that are highly intelligent that we're not aware of yeah you know I've gone I've gone down that route hole a little bit and I'm not I'm not shy of going down these rabbit holes and exploring them you know so like I you know I have the ultra terrestrial type Theory and you know I know you probably know more than I do but I have I've heard those theories um can I ask you what time frame do you think that that that's that terrestrial Theory will come from do you think that's like something that arose on earth a long time ago or something that's more recent it's a great question because why would it avoid detection like what's the reason for it like why

84:35would it always have avoided detection there's not like a historical record of these things like coming out of the ocean and flying around from a thousand years ago that we're aware of I don't know how would it evolve how what it where you know what is it doing you know how come we're not detecting them with submarines how come we're not detecting them when we fly over the ocean on a regular basis like why if this thing is avoiding detection why why is it doing that is it observing us is this you know you want to go really far out is this what made us you know like what are we we are so different from every other life form on Earth in the fact that we wear clothes and the fact that we can communicate in the fact that we are obsessed with technological innovation and it seems to be the number one thing that human beings physically make if you looked at us

85:33collectively you have all these people that are working constantly and what's the treat what's the what's the card at the end of this deck newer better stuff whether it's a newer better car a newer better TV or a newer better phone one of the main reasons why people work as hard as they do they're incentivized by technological innovation they're incentivized by like if we just looked at us if you just abandoned the idea of culture and context and what are these weird talking monkeys doing well they're making better stuff constantly well why are they doing that like what it seems like that is what they're obsessed with just like a bee is making a beehive do they know why they're doing it do they know why collectively they group up in these cities with millions and millions of people and if you watch the cars come in and out at night it's much like blood

86:25in an artery you know in an artery you're watching things moving back and forth and back and forth and and they're creating objects better and better objects and they don't seem to be collectively aware of what they're doing and they distract themselves with these cultural issues and all these you know they have uh two completely different polarizing political parties that are constantly at odds and fighting against each other in all the while they're creating artificial intelligence and all the while they're creating some sort of a symbiotic relationship with intelligent with intelligent Computing and with artificial intelligence and with technology that seems to be going in a way where they're going to integrate with it they're going to physically integrate with these electronic devices and and with technology and with the internet like

87:19why why is it doing that why is it not aware of that that [ __ ] that should be like the number one thing it concern other than climate change and super volcanoes and giant threats to civilization they should be really concerned with the direction the [ __ ] is going but they seem to be blissfully unaware foot on the gas all gas no brakes moving in that general direction like what if that's what we do what if that's what this species does what if this species creates technology and is essentially on its way to giving birth to a new life form and that new life form is a life form that's created completely out of Technology that's uninhibited unhindered disconnected from emotion from uh instincts from all of these instincts that we have just developed over thousands of years of survival all these human and animal instincts ego emotion fear

88:29lust sexual desires desire to accumulate wealth and power all these things that have to do with primate biology and animal biology and mating what if that's the future what if the future is that is going to be the past and the new life forms are going to be completely unhindered by all of these problems that we have if you think about like war war and uh and disease and all these things that we have done like in terms of like environmental hazards and all this problems that we've created for ourselves why we've pushed all gas no brakes towards this Industrial Revolution and this technological Revolution and all the haphazard things that we've done what if all that [ __ ] is just a byproduct of this inevitable merging of the biological life into the whatever technological life that we're creating and what of those things are monitoring it

89:39or encouraging it or created it in the first place I mean we have no idea what happened to the human species like we have no idea how the human brain doubled over a period of two million years it's the biggest mystery in the history of the fossil record they don't know they don't know what the [ __ ] happened we're so different than every other animal that's on this planet well what if that's by Design what if that what if there's some sort of an accelerated Evolution or something has come in and just manipulated the lower primates and so to your point earlier you know even just to kind of reinforce what you said you know our technology is is moved ahead so fast and we disregard in a sense everything right climate uh but you know it's we've seen it right our our culture can't even keep up with the technological progression right so our

90:31culture you know breaks down and fractures damage as a result of the new introduced technology and then ideally you know our society will adapt to it and move forward uh and grow with it you know I think in an ideal world that would probably be switched around right you know our culture would you know Define what we need and what we Define as important and then we would build tools that would help enable those things that we think are important yeah I would even say that perhaps it's even a bit further down I mean when you think about an artificial intelligence which really at the end of the day is electromagnetic energy in a sense so if we were to truly merge with an AI outside of being you know rid of all our our things that ALS and our physical bodies um you know really it might be a move away from just generally space time

91:19itself which you know we're learning is less fundamental than we already thought if there is a coherent you know artificial intelligence contained with a pocket of electromagnetic energy or or some type of organization of electromagnetic energy much like our brain outside of a skin suit then we're going to lose the limitations that you know space time and and you know us operating within space time bring to us and if that evolves even further if that sort of ability continues to accelerate and goes in you know a thousand year period or a hundred thousand year period we conceivably would have the power of gods we conceivably would have the power to control all the processes that we observe in the known universe black holes like the the the birth and death of stars like all that stuff if you just if you think of what we can do now based

92:22on what amoebas can do and you take that a million years in the future and if as long as we don't blow ourselves up as long as there's not a we don't get hit by an asteroid you keep going and you keep con you have more and more control over the physical nature of the universe and of technology and power and we can harness dark energy and who the [ __ ] knows what the future is and maybe what we're seeing is creatures or some things that have already made these leaps or some version of these leaps maybe they're you know they're the you know the the British explorers that you know land on the coast and and check out the natives then maybe that's where they are and maybe that they're primitive in terms of like what their capabilities are in in like comparison to what's possible with a million more years of evolution I mean it's not going to stop that's

93:23what's fascinating to me is that this is not going to our technological innovation and our lust for constant Improvement of our ability to change the world it's not going to stop it's going to keep moving so where does it go it I think it's Professor Hanson who's a economist you know he looked at that and what he calls that is a greedy Society where you know we just want to keep taking and keep building and keep growing and one of the great mysteries of course is why don't we see you know alien life out there because you know we're greedy we expand and we assume that anything else out there would also you know want to expand to gain more resources or to explore right like we like to go to different places to explore which you know is at a pure economic driven thing or is there something about our you know our human nature that we like to discover new things um

94:17and you know his his big thought is you know we don't see anything out there um and because we don't uh and if we if we assume that we don't see anything out there and we assume that essentially the UAP do represent you know other life forms um then the assumption is that they found a way to make themselves not greedy right so they stop themselves from expanding in a sense yeah uh to control that weird Rogue unit from kind of just expanding in a million years or however long it takes for that you know that seed of an or you know of a civilization that might go out in a spaceship to come back and be the greedy thing that takes up the whole universe well the way to do that is to eliminate sexual reproduction I mean that would be one of the big ways because one of the reasons why people are greedy human especially males are greedy because they

95:07want to be the alpha they want to acquire the most resources so they have the pick of the litter so they can decide what gets done they have the most power over the other entities the other humans if that gets eliminated if we merge with artificial intelligence or we become some sort of new version of artificial intelligence the way I've described it in the past is like that we are the electronic caterpillar that becomes the butterfly and we don't even know what we're doing we're just in the middle of like making this cocoon like we just got to make the Cocoon we're busy making the Cocoon need an iPhone 14 making the Cocoon I need a new Tesla making the Cocoon and that all that Innovation It All Leads to exponentially more powerful Innovation exponentially more powerful technology that's ultimately the the end game is artificial life and the ability to

96:07transcend space and time and and just unimaginable technological power and I don't think that's possible unless we get rid of emotions sexual desire lust greed all those things which are human things those are the things that allowed us to survive when we're running away from Big Cats we're trying to stay alive from predators and that very desire to stay alive and to breed and to uh to fight off conquering tribes oh that's allowed us to innovate and create technology because that's the thing that separate us from the other animals is our ability to develop tools and our ability to innovate and to to think and plan out how how to protect ourselves how to accumulate resources so that we can be safe and how to develop walls and cities and urbanization and all these different things have essentially set the stage for this Innovation to become a part of

97:09us and the only way to separate ourselves from all of the the pitfalls all the the things that hold us back which are the this the emotions the the anger the greed all the things that we find distasteful about humans that a lot of is tied to sexual reproduction a lot of it is tied to our biological needs if we can get past that that's that's what those [ __ ] alien things are you look at them like if you look at the archetypal alien they have no muscle they're they're these thin things with these giant heads they have no genitals like what if what we're seeing maybe is maybe it's not even like physically a representation of an actual thing that we're seeing maybe what we're seeing is we're recognizing the pattern that this is where it goes that this is where the the the the upright human animal the hominid this is what it becomes you just

98:11keep going and it merges with technology and then it becomes that thing I take a little bit different view on that you know the anatomy side of it but I think of it more of like maybe that's that's the best tool they have to interact with us at a peer level right is to build something that somewhat looks like us but is different enough so that it doesn't get mistaken as you know it's not sneaky in a sense right they don't want to be sneaky they want to be a parent maybe that's maybe that's the tool they use in a sense but it's not a being made of light that we don't even recognize as a life form like yeah if I was like waving to an ant you know like it's not gonna know what's going on right right well that could be possible too it could be that those things are drones that those things are artificial intelligent creatures and that the

98:56actual intelligence that created them is disembodied in the future they just talked about yeah you know space time being a uh one of the things that drops out if we do merge with AI potentially right and so that would make sense that if they were outside of space-time they would need to construct something of space-time in order to interact here Brian well if you if this Bob Lazar story about Element 115 is real and they can apply this at scale like if you have enough Element 115 and a reactor that's sophisticated enough you can travel to anywhere in the universe instantaneously like and there's no boundaries no physical boundaries in terms of like what's a what's possible I also want to believe that I want to believe all of it that's the problem I want to believe all of it but I also know that there's certain elements of what we're discussing that are 100

99:48percent in process of happening like Elon Musk neural link when I talked to Elon about it he was saying you're going to be able to talk without words like what the [ __ ] is that like where's that I mean you know he's not talking about next week but he's talking about ultimately and eventually and I feel like that's where all this stuff is going to go it's not going to get less sophisticated it's you know I was having this conversation with my kids last night I was saying we're having this talk about new phones because I have an iPhone 14. they're like is it better and I'm like no I mean yes but like not in any noticeable way that I recognize every day like the camera the 13 was great too so it's silly and I'm like what's funny about people is that we never are happy if we just decided this was the conversation we were having I

100:36said if we just decided right now to stop making new things we would have a pretty great life if we decided okay planes are fast enough let's keep fixing them uh phones are great you can talk you could I you know you could the iMessage and you can you know use FaceTime you can see each other we don't need to fix that just maintain it let's just the Tesla Jesus so fast we don't need a new car just like fix that and just everybody just keep what we have and let's maintain life we're never going to do that it's possible we're never gonna do it we would self-destruct like there's just no way we could do it um why why though I don't know a great question Humans Beings need to reproduce that's a lot of it a lot of it is the desire to accumulate resources and power and a lot of that is tied to these biological urges that are baked into us

101:30from the time that we really did have to survive from animals trying to eat us I I saw a video today of this poor [ __ ] guy was rock climbing and a bear tried to attack him I was like that used to be us all the time that was us on a daily have you seen that Jamie [ __ ] crazy did he climb the guy's got like a GoPro on and he's climbing up this rock and a bear comes down at him and tries to get him yes that's even worse and so he swats it to the side watch this so This Guy's climbing up and look at this this bear comes right out and he pushes it and it runs back up so one interesting thing about bears is grizzly bears generally when they attack people they're attacking people because you surprise them and it's a female with Cubs but black bears are often attacking people for food they're they're predatory in the sense that like they

102:32they recognize that people are weak and they're like oh I'll just eat that thing because like they cannibalize each other on a regular basis so anything that they can eat like black bears like one of my friends was up in Alberta and he observed a male black bear attack a female in their cubs kill one of the Cubs the female scale scared the male off and then the female ate her own Cub oh damn and you see that coming hard work the Dead one or the live one the Dead one okay the Dead one that the male had killed once it was dead she's like well might as well eat it might as well eat my baby yeah she just ate it right there in front of him and he's like Jesus Christ like that's what a bear is it's not a stuffed animal that you know sits next to your kid at night when it goes to bed it's not Yogi that's what a bear is it's not Winnie the Pooh that

103:25thing trying to eat that climber that's a bear well you know I mean here we are you know strip mining our planet and you know the killing stuff oh yeah we're not innocent we're certainly not Innocent but my point is that I think that we have all these instincts because we are a part of the natural world and the only way we can transcend that is to eliminate all of those biological urges if we have true Mastery over the material world and to the point where we no longer need to be hindered by those biological urges that seems to me like the best way to transcend space and time like the the best way to eliminate all the things that kind of hold us back when it comes to logical rational thinking a lot of is emotional you know and I think that that may be the future of the the intelligent species in the universe they probably don't act like

104:24you know like barbarians that they probably we have transcended that and they've they've recognized that all the problems we have like what's the number one problem we have in the world it's probably War other than the environment and what we're doing to the environment it's probably War it's the most horrific terrifying thing that human beings will attack other groups of human beings they don't even know and try to steal the resources which is generally what they're trying to do when they're trying they don't go to war for no reason right they're generally going to war for there's a benefit there well if we could get past that boy if there was no war imagine the cooperation that we could have imagine how much we could get done if we all spoke the same language we all treated each other as if we were the same thing living other lives and we all just

105:14shared resources and worked together to make life better for the species well how would you do that well you'd have to eliminate the lust and greed what's the best way to eliminate the lust and greed well to become something different and more advanced and the best way to do that is to no longer have all these urges that human beings have the urge to be powerful and to dominate and all of our Dominator culture stuff that's just a natural part of being a primate so what do we lose with that everything we lose music and comedy and fun and romance we we lose the the best first date of your life where you you lose everything you lose drinking wine and laughing with friends you're gonna lose everything you're going to lose all the things that we love about being the imperfect creatures that we are today but what you gain is you become these super powerful Ultra

106:11enlightened beings that have different motivation and I think that that's probably going to occur it's gonna probably occur in stages in one of the stages is probably going to be either virtual reality or augmented reality that can provide you with experiences that are far superior to the physical ones that you have to get on your own I mean I think we romanticize so many things about um our life like like that guy climbing right that guy's climbing because he's he's trying to get this thrill of like trying to like physically take yourself through a dangerous course up a mountain and you get this thrill that you're doing this because if you fall you're dead and along the way he almost gets [ __ ] eaten right which is Bears yeah pretty wild but we romanticize it it's and it's it's baked into us in a way that it's it's like inherent to our

107:12physical being like when I whenever I go on trips into the woods one of the things that shocks me is how good I feel almost like it it hits a frequency that I've been needing but I that's not accessible to me living in a city and when I'm in the woods and when I'm climbing a mountain and I'm out there with nature when I'm when I'm out there I'm feels so good I feel so centered and grounded like I feel better than I feel at any other time and it resets me in a way that's not available in a city but what if that's available through augmented reality or a virtual reality what if that's available through a chip that gets installed in your brain and it's far superior to that feeling that you get and you recognize the futility of that experience what you're trying to do is you're trying to recreate what it was like when people lived a thousand years ago

108:07or ten thousand years ago and you had to survive by you know throwing a spear at a rabbit or whatever that was the only way you could feed your family and that's the only when you you you would look at that time and how difficult it was and imagine just being able to go to a grocery store and going oh my God that's so much better grocery store is so much better nobody wants to go back to hunting for food every day it's too [ __ ] hard but we don't think of it that way because we have the grocery store because it exists well what if there's something that's exponentially more significant than a grocery store but that life experiences itself all the things that you love about life all the things you love about romance and creation and culture and all the the wonderful things that we think of when we associate the best aspects of human

108:59life and human interaction human Community what if that's all what if that pales in comparison to what could be created technologically we're going to embrace it just like we Embrace phones I mean we all we all have phones I remember the old days where I don't even have an email there was a few holdouts those [ __ ] people are all on board now it just took a decade it took a little while what if that's the future of this symbiotic interaction that we have with technology I think it is I think that's where we're going and my my fascination with these uaps and with this idea that we're being visited by these things from I I almost feel like they're cultivating us I almost feel like they're watching us like whatever they are that they're just making sure we don't blow ourselves up along the process because one of the things that

109:51has been discussed by many people that have experienced these things on military bases is their ability to shut down bases there's their ability to shut down like these nuclear facilities and that you got to think that if they were going to wonder about any one particular thing that we have access to it's being in this transitionary period between having these primate instincts and applying them to spectacular technology in a brutish horrific way like we're worried about right now with Russia we're worried that Putin because all the horrific things that are happening already in Ukraine the bombings and the the drone strikes and possibly the use of hypersonic missiles what if that's applied to nuclear weapons and what if what if we're dealing with a nuclear Holocaust I mean that's that's really what we're worried about and I wonder if that's

110:45what they're monitoring you know you asked earlier about the why now part right but you know there's a lot of stuff happening right there's um there's climate there's war there's everything else it feels like we're accelerating towards something right and Technology uh not least of all moving us towards you know some people call the singularity um and yeah you know maybe they're all here to watch the birth in a sense yeah I think the hope would be that we would be part of that birth as you describe to integrate with the artificial intelligence I know that there's um there's efforts to consider the the moral and ethical application of artificial intelligence but you know are we fooling ourselves is that you know are we going to have the options of maintaining an ethical AI once it's been created you know is it possible to create safeguards and AI that you know

111:35transition past you know or into the singularity uh and allow it to keep in mind human interest uh once it's already become sentient if that can happen um you know one thing that you mentioned about artificial intelligence and you know if that is the the output of our craving for advancement you know what does that change for the world right there would only be one General artificial intelligence I would assume because anything that would be created afterwards if it was not a secret would be assumed by the the primary AI right you know so this kind of ties into a thought I've had before about you know maybe the way we were interacted with with UAP or you know we're gonna make the assumption that they're coming from another planet right now and so with that assumption you know perhaps as societies mature much like you described

112:26they do start to you know Advance their sociological side they start to work better as a group they you know remove some of those more animalistic urges that they evolved with right and that remained when they got the power of the Gods if you will right once they had technology but we're still you know commanded by their Primal urges um you know you may very well be right there's that transitional period that can be living at this moment maybe that adds to a lot of the um a lot of the the hecticness of our current days um but what if those other planets since they they have realized that you know they interact with us as a planet as an entity you know if if that's the way their society has evolved in a sense to be uh more collaborative and uh less argumentative than they may approach us as you know as a planet to planet versus

113:17a country to Country right or individual individual they might assume that um since the best things can only happen when the most people work together right in a sense um if we can assume that you know if you and I work together Joe we can do more than just if either of us worked alone right yeah if we make that assumption and we apply that to a planet it would make sense that um you know if there are a bunch of species out there that if they survive they would have worked together learned how to work together right yeah and they might assume that of us they're like oh wow look at they have all these Cool Tools they must have moved to that point where they know how to work together do you think that don't think they would think that I think they'd watch us they'd go oh look at these crazy [ __ ] well that's why we're not ready right

113:57that's why we're anomaly because we do have these tools and yet we're not ready maybe that's just how it normally is when a civilization or when civilization in general advances past a point where we're at now that there is this chaotic moment where there are sort of a combination of lower primate and higher being and the the power of nuclear weapons the power to send video through the sky and it appears on a device that you keep in your pocket that you literally talk to and it gives you answers to things like I was having a conversation with my kids last night and they were talking about they went to see little Nas X and how great it was and uh and like how old is that guy how old is little Nas X bang 23. it just shows you on the phone I'm like how Wild is that you could talk to a device I mean that's [ __ ] Jets and

114:49[ __ ] I mean when I was a kid that wasn't even in Star Trek even at Star Trek they had walkie-talkies remember it was like Kurt out and you had to like hang up his stupid phone like no one imagined the internet even in science fiction and that's something that we have through the sky that is in incredible speeds it just shows up on your phone and the battery lasts all day long you watch YouTube videos all day long it's crazy what we're going through right now and we complain about it well the battery doesn't last long enough you know we complain about everything that's always going to be the case we're always going to be unsatisfied and that that dissatisfaction is what leads to Innovation because it's part of our lust and thirst for constant growth and Improvement and which is one of the things that we do I mean think about

115:38materialism in general like what is materialism what is materialism fuel what purpose would that serve this stupid need for constant uh acquiring of objects well it it serves to make sure that people make better and better stuff because that's the best way to fuel materialism you have to if you want people to like continue this uh this this sort of fruitless desire to require new objects you have new better stuff constantly well if you have new better stuff constantly what does that do well it fuels Innovation because you have to make the things better it's like our own stupid desire for materialism it fuels technological innovation it's like baked in it's a part of us all our Solutions are usually Technology based as well yeah right for everything it's never about you know it's never about how do we uh you know how do we raise our children better or

116:35how do we kind of work on the personal side of things it's always what tool can we make that makes that problem go away yeah even when we have problems like we have carbon emission problems well I was reading an article I I don't remember what website's on what what are scientific websites about a new concrete that they have that extracts carbon the concrete itself the construction of concrete apparently it it leads to um carbon emissions right like just you know transportation of the raw materials and all the things that are involved in making concrete well they've developed a concrete that actually extracts carbon from the atmosphere which is pretty wild so these people that have problems they see these problems like what's a solution well here's a technological solution for a complex problem so we don't have to alter our Behavior but

117:28we'll have complex technological solutions that mitigate these problems makes a lot of sense yeah you know to describe how I got into flying it was very much um to fill that urge that you described you know when I thought about flying a jet it wasn't for a passion of flying really you know I hadn't had access to that so I didn't develop it but you know I thought that was the place that I could really be at the tip of the spear as far as technology and how I could access it just as a regular guy you know with no you know experience or anything like that so I mean frankly I was driven by you know that same Earth just went about a different way well that's one of the more fascinating things about classified Military Intelligence because of the fact that it's military and because of the fact that there's a great benefit to the country for it being top

118:17secret and you know not being available to our enemies you do we developed this stuff that we're not even aware of so our tax mud our tax money goes in a way that's kind of unaccountable and it's gigantic budget and it huge like what is it like how many trillions of dollars a year didn't we look at it the other day yeah the defense department budget and we don't even know where all that stuff goes right but it's trillions money it's insane how much money it is and it's going towards these technologies that we don't even know about and until we see them implemented like the stealth bomber for instance is one of them or the Manhattan Project or you know many of the things throughout history that that's fascinating too because there's so much as being that go so when I see something like these objects these uaps part of me goes like how much on

119:12that [ __ ] is ours how much of that [ __ ] is ours where they don't want to talk about it they don't want to let us know but they're they're implementing these Technologies and does Russia have something similar does China have something similar like how much of that [ __ ] is stuff that's just top secret drone technology because why is it all of it so near military bases like that's one of the things that I thought almost immediately about the Tic Tac because that that Tic Tac thing is uh real close to the it was real close to the Nimitz and it's real close to all the the bases that are near San Diego I'm like what if that's ours like what if that's like some super top secret high level [ __ ] that we just don't we're not privy to that information that's always I don't want to call it a risk but you know

120:00I think we're inclined to think like that too and we want to because again we want to be true right like we want our government to be that smart and to have that information it makes us feel safer I think oh yeah I want it to be like a Captain America shield hell yeah that flies at like 10 times the speed of light but you know where does that end right like let's just say that's true like how much technology that could be beneficial for society via either you know energy production or ways we can't even imagine because it was designed for a particular use case but whenever something like kind of gets out and it's exposed to kind of that Innovation ecosystem right it's just there's a flourishing people use that technology and those ideas in ways that people never thought of before yeah and so it's not this like you hear of something hidden away or technology but

120:49imagine if all that was just like out in the open to be kind of meddled upon by you know the quantity of Minds we have nowadays with the access to the tools we have the problem with that is war right the problem is that we can't have that kind of Technology available to our enemies because then they would use it on us that's the big fear so if we do have something that's like super powerful and just beyond imagination at this point of our understanding of what's technologically available and that [ __ ] gets in the hands of Russia or gets in the hands of China or gets in the hands of whoever Iran and then they use it on us before we could use it on that like we want to have the technological military superiority because we think of ourselves as best case scenario of human beings on planet Earth in 2022 well what if you know what if we've had

121:37it for a while and we've you know essentially blown that lead yeah I mean why are we why are we talking about it more than because I assume that would still hold true unless there's been work elsewhere that has pushed up you know made that less relevant what do you think I think if we're experiencing it here it's probably something that you know our adversaries are dealing with and probably are working on as well have they discussed it at all is there to be are you aware of any discussion whether it's the the Chinese government or the Russian government is there any discussion at all about uaps over there there's a lot in Russia I mean Russia has a history of UAP um just like we do in the United States you know for my amateur research but uh and China too has been taking notice I hear that they have been apparently working on artificial intelligence or

122:24machine learning solutions to better understand what these objects are they've been communicating that they've been seeing a large number of these objects and that the sightings have been increasing everything that leaves China essentially comes out of state media so you know what are they communicating exactly I don't know but right um that has been they have been doing looking into it yeah I mean maybe that would be the thing that unites us remember that Ronald Reagan speech there's a Ronald Reagan's speech was it from the United Nations I learned about it yeah yeah it's a it's a wild speech you've seen the speech right well would Russia help us our Soviet Union help us if we were attacked from yeah well imagine how quickly would aband our differences if we're faced with an alien threat from another world and then hope yeah all the

123:06UFO people went Bonkers like oh my God he knows something Ronnie's trying to tell us and that's that's I think I mean if there was something that United us as a human race instead of thinking ourselves as like these individual communities that live on patches of land you know tribal tribal attitudes like the one thing that would do that it's something from another planet knock on wood you know we have seen mostly bipartisanship in the bills I've been passing in the congressman Senate regarding UAP activities in the United States so you know to that point it seems to you know what's been happening in Congress and Senate has been um very rational you know strong bipartisan um work by both you know Senator gillibrand Senator Rubio you know they've been working together on this problem so it's your point you know um I hope that continues I hope that is

124:04the thing that can kind of get us over all the back and forth what are like what are the big there's I'm sure besides the commander David fravor situation and and some of the what have you ever heard of that uh like a a big instance like something crazy along those lines that maybe people haven't heard of oh I don't know what people haven't heard of but you know some things you know there was a flyover the United States capital it seems at some point in the 50s uh where a group of UAP were just kind of cruising over um the White House and the State Building yeah you can find pictures of it out there although it hasn't been um pictures of it well you know it's like a formation of Lights essentially so it you know what is it who knows but essentially um yeah there you go is that what well that's a joke that's a drawing but that looks terrible yeah oh so that's

125:01the actual thing wow UFO sightings a peaceful union or Battlefield Earth so is that a real photograph so it's from the 19th this is from History Channel so this could be like a recording right probably okay so from the 1950 and that's a it's a drawing for the newspaper yeah saucers over Washington DC they're Harry S Barnes senior air Route traffic controller for the several Aeronautics Administration was in charge of the National Airport Washington DC art control center the night of July 19 1952 briefly he States in a newspaper article our job is to constantly monitor the skies around the nation's capital with the electronic eye of radar shortly after midnight on that date seven Pips what is what is a Pips do you know what that is Pips seven Pips I don't know seven Pips appeared suddenly on the control center scope Ed Nugent Jim Copeland and Jim Ritchie all

126:06experienced radar controllers checked the observations the airport control tower radar operator verified the same sighting they were over the restricted areas of Washington including the White House and the capitol wow and there was some concern then that this was that these were Russian right because this was during the Cold War This Is post-world War II you know we had gotten some of the Nazi scientists and that they went on to work for NASA and through Operation Paperclip and then Russia had gotten some Nazi scientists as well and we were concerned like with who's going to develop some sort of spaceship or who's going to get to the moon first and all that [ __ ] was going on around then right yep absolutely and you know a few years supposedly after Roswell and you know people always ask about you know it's like well why

126:58haven't we seen them why haven't they landed on the White House law and all that but it's interesting if you do look back there are some interesting examples of you know large groups of objects flying over you know very important areas you know clearly making themselves known well my take on that is like if we find an ant colony do we make ourselves available to the queen for a meeting no we don't give a [ __ ] who the who thinks they're in charge you know like if they're that advanced they can come here from another galaxy you know they're they're probably don't give a [ __ ] about Biden like come on that's so silly that oh that's your king but we do we care about them and so if they wanted to influence most of my people they might look to influencing the person we all look to in a sense or or defy the power

127:46of these institutions by hovering over the Pentagon exactly and letting them know we control you know I'm the captain um this this thing with the the New York Times from 2017 and and having these these meetings with these high-level officials that are concerned about these things is this all is this moving in a general direction of transparency do you think do you think they're recognizing that this is something that has to be addressed and has to be that people have to be informed about this because it's so prevalent I do yeah so I mean that's that's what I'm seeing at this point um you know I've engaged again with people uh the hill and they are taking this very seriously um and by extension they have pushed that seriousness back to you know uh dni DOD and the officers that have stood up within their namely Arrow right now or

128:48the all domain anomaly resolution office um from my perspective they you know they have a charter to to engage the community on this of course not to um not to put any national security at risk uh but that's kind of another conversation the classification problem but because that's its own entity right people might think like you know if someone in the proper place can just declassify whatever they want you know it's it's kind of its own entity that everyone else kind of operates under so it's not quite that simple kind of two problems there but um I have seen it seems to be a real movement in the direction of engaging the pop public on this topic what do you think their motivation for doing that is I can't say exactly but you know when I when I have been pushing people to pay attention to this I you know it's very simple again for me it's about people

129:38are still flying by these things and almost hitting them right we can talk all day about the you know societal implications of what they are but at the end of the day the People The Operators that are flying around out there you have to not hit these things uh and so you know from that sense it's it's it's hard I think for people to ignore that because they understand that you know this is a serious safety of risk and that as we kind of transition that new knowledge of the risk to the commercial markets and the general uh Aviation communities is going to probably serve a few feathers you know the commercial markets I think don't necessarily want to acknowledge this because they have zero safety plan they've been ignoring this for a while and you know they might have to answer some hard questions about you know why they are ignoring the

130:24potential for midair with hundreds of people on their aircraft has there ever been an instance where there has been a mid-air Collision or crash that happened because of you know trying to avoid one of these things so that's actually a better question what I thought you were going to ask because I thought you know that's a great thing if a pilot sees one of these objects right and they have zero training on it and have no idea what it is or what to do they might maneuver that aircraft in a way that could cause aircraft to depart or to hurt somebody right right and so the angle you just touched on which is the kind of training in you know the policy side of it where you know because we're actively not teaching Pilots to deal with this they could do something dangerous when they do it I thought you're going to ask have we ever seen

131:09like an airplane crash because of uh mid-air with a UFO um and again we don't we don't know right of course there's been plane crashes but nothing's been proven or else we wouldn't be having this conversation but but avoiding something would cause a real issue if you're flying 500 miles an hour and you see something in front of you and have to make an Abrupt maneuver that's unplanned yeah absolutely or or the pilot says oh that's just something on my windscreen because clearly UFOs don't exist and then they Barrel into something and it turns out to be a balloon and they lose an engine right like there's all sorts of ways you can go wrong and never like not talking about it is never the solution when it comes to Aviation but how many Pilots like when it comes to commercial air Pilots how many Pilots report these sort of sightings and do

132:00these reports get to the Pentagon do they get to the White House like how does that happen from where if someone's like flying for American Airlines nothing they see a circle with a cube inside of it that's like going you know the speed of sound like what what happens you know most likely the pilot will call up the air traffic controller they're currently talking with and ask them if they see the object or if you know there's other air traffic there and the most likely answer you know from what I've heard is no they don't see the object and so that just kind of leaves the pilot there at that point um it there is something that essentially says within the FAA manuals if you will I don't know the exact um one where it says hey if you've if you think you've seen a a UFO and actually uses that terminology then you have the option to report it to the fa

132:48it doesn't even like tell you an office it's just kind of like if you feel the need to report it then that's something you wouldn't do so what that tells me is that this isn't the first time that there's been people poking around trying to report on it but that was really the best they could do is just say you know hey if you really feel like this is important then sure you can fire a message off right that's kind of it so there's no organization there's no acknowledgment what's this Jamie uh commercial pilot that filmed something he saw what is that thing he's saying oh it so he's zooming in and this is like black dot it was like a circle it kind of looks what does it look like what the [ __ ] is that is that a TIE fighter that's a cube so this was over a media in Columbia whoa and they've got the article I found said that this was like

133:40labeled as as a UFO is all it was labeled as I'm trying to find the link I had look at that it's like a cube go back to that again I mean the air crew on this particular incident if I remember correctly had seen the object for some time before it came in to the uh the camera's field of view right so what's likely Happening Here is that the air crew are flying past that object right so like it's not the air the object's not flying down their nose it's the it's the aircraft flying so they're flying close to it so it might be a balloon or something well no nothing around not to say that but generally speaking I think they're they're kind of story if I remember correctly is that they had it they were seeing it for a while and it was like doing something that was like strange them I don't know what if it's moving or changing shape like you saw or what but

134:30it was something that like completely Drew their attention and you know pulling their phones out airline pilot not supposed to use their phone inside the um cockpit like that right so um he's breaking the rules in order to take a video of that which I plot him for but um but you know this is exactly the type of thing that we talk about when we talk about needing procedures and things of that nature right he's breaking the rules in order to get data on this right and that's obviously not conducive to you you know a proper investigation of this topic right there was another one that was uh recent that was uh being discussed online that was taken from a fighter jet I don't remember what model jet where it was the same sort of a situation where someone was taking a photo of some sort of a triangle-shaped object that was in the sky

135:14not sure do you remember that do you remember that Jamie yeah I had I had two so there's one that shows that photo re like it's a an artist rendition of it so it shows a real fake triangle I saw another one where it was filmed from a cockpit and there's a very Split Second uh you can see something fly by and they've like still framed that I'll try to pull that up again I'm trying to figure okay which link I had it on um it's got to be so strange for you to to go from not really having any understanding of these things to upgraded radar and then holy [ __ ] you see them every day yeah I mean and I wish it was people always ask me like what was it like and it was never this just like come to Jesus moment where it's like you know oh my God there's you know uip here it was very we were very you know pragmatic pragmatic about it until we lose at that time

136:07yeah this was in the hearing I think super quick there right and then someone took a still of it as it flashes by right yeah so this is what they were shown in uh Hearing in Congress those pylons didn't wander up to that object right like they had radar on it they had the flare on it if they were carrying a Fleer uh the only reason they showed that was because they didn't have to declassify it it was a Air Cruise phone right so there's this Beast of an animal that surrounds us which is the U.S classification system and you know the default is that stuff is classified more or less right um and so I you know that is something that needs to be contended with by you know Arrow by the groups actively working in this because they have to essentially work against that system right it's not intended to release information to the public it's not why

137:04it's designed it's designed is the what in terms of like the these images that have been released what what to you is the most compelling have you seen any of them that have been really um I have heard that there's some uh incontrovertibly interesting stuff floating around now so yes there like we said in the past there's been stuff but now that there's been an actual reporting mechanism since you know the UAP task force started that proactive system and since then there has been recording some things that are now floating around you know the general classified Network that's not like some varied secret that people you know that people with the proper access can go and verify themselves frankly um and you know I've met some of these people that have done their own homework and they're incredibly passionate about volunteering their time to help some of

138:00them are helping me within the AAA because they understand that you know we're entering a new realm of understanding our world I think so you've heard that there's some evidence that we're not privy to or that yeah that's general public I mean I have no doubt that there's a you know plethora of images classified images that you know will give us a lot more to talk about than that frame or two that we just saw do you have any hope that that stuff will ultimately be released I think that um I think that there is a pathway there I do think there is a pathway for the declassification of data so that the scientific Community can better understand it um I have been working with the American Institute aeronauts and astronautics with some of the emerging uh players within this landscape I'll say uh and we've been working very hard to see how we can you know the

138:51organization that we put together how we can help those those other institutions uh in the near future you know we'll be able to announce some of those collaborations uh so that the general public can better understand the type of work that we're going to be doing what do you think the benefit for the government to to release that information like why would they be transparent about it why wouldn't they just continue to sort of dismiss it and look we had our little hearings and let's just go about our business and whatever we get we keep to ourselves I don't know you know I don't know part of me wants to say hey maybe it's kind of a Changing of the Guard of a bit right I mean the general it's it's been a while if all the stories are to be believed and um it's kind of a new generation of people that kind of grew up in a more open Society in a bit I feel uh maybe

139:39less inclined to just bury everything away for the for the greater good and that's pure speculation right um that's how I feel and perhaps you know as as a bit of a new guard into this topic you know um but at the end of the day um I don't think you know I don't know and I don't I hope we find out right I hope we kind of get the the debrief at the end of the day one day but I don't know if we'll get that because you've been open about this and I know you did Lex Friedman's podcast you've discussed this and I saw some other things about you discussing this online what has been what's been the reaction from other people have you uh have you received more information of people reached out to you to talk to you about things that they've seen have you received criticism from discussing this openly I have not received criticism for talk about openly

140:32I think there was a period of time where um as to be expected uh my former colleagues were treating this like a joke like it was you know in the ready room um but I got shut down pretty quickly from what I've heard and generally speaking you know I've had people reach out you know with support people incredibly passionate about this topic you know I I've I like the word latent demand now because in a sense all the um the stories and topics and obscuration on this topic has just hasn't made people's interests go away it just kind of bothered it up in a sense at least what I hear because I have you know every day people mailing me saying you know thank you I can feel like I can talk about this now in like a respectful manner I can you know I'm a professor at a college and we're going to start looking into this with the students because the students are super

141:19passionate about this um and so you know I think the younger generation is very easy to accept and integrate you know the possibility I'll say uh whereas the the older guard is coming around in a sense um so I do think that it is possible I would say for like we talked about as this you know this technology change happens with people moving into that technology faster and faster and it kind of leaves our society about behind in a bit I think the same thing is going to happen with this topic right like there are people that are going to be able to integrate this into the reality faster or sooner than other people and you know much like technology there's going to be advantages to people that do uh integrate that information but uh the hope is that I think we'll get everyone there one day yeah and the hope for me is that people release more of this

142:08stuff like the the leaks that have uh that Jeremy Corbell has gotten about like the trans medium device and some of the other things there was another one where there was those pyramid-shaped objects that were flying over uh and it was an aircraft carrier some some ship I don't think it's a carrier yeah I think it was like a destroyer or something like what did what did you think of those videos um there's a lot of like see if you can find that Jamie just it's really weird they're like pyramids and they're they're flying around like like these things yeah uh shown through a night vision camera over the USS Russell in footage leaked to Jeremy Corbell so what did you uh did you watch that footage at all yeah uh I don't know I you know people I know we're nugget down and kind of arguing about the uh shape of the object right triangle or not I I I told people I

143:07don't give a [ __ ] what it's shaped like like these things should not be flying over a U.S Destroyer like right regardless like uh let's focus on the right things here um there's a a sense that if something is can be prosaically explained then it must be right um if there's a you know a an unknown object that has a light on it it's impossible for it to be a UAP because UAV have lights and they need lights so that's the simplest explanation and therefore everything else is negated right and you need to have that exceptional evidence for it to even be considered um I don't care right it's a it's a it's near a naval asset and we don't you know that's our airspace and whether the shape is interesting or not is irrelevant like it's a it's a massive security flaw to have objects like that flying near a ship it's um it's you know

143:58it's it's a travel see if that's what our Navy is allowing foreign adversaries to do so that needs to get fixed and if it's not foreign adversaries then we need to better understand that as well if you had a pile of chips and you were going to push it into like red or black red is uh some sort of human based technology black is aliens can we say other instead of aliens okay just something crazy other some non-human intelligence non-human intelligence something from somewhere else whether it's another dimension another planet what do you think I think there's another actor involved I think there is another I think that there is something that is not human that is interacting in some fashion I don't know whether it comes from somewhere else or was here before or comes from something we don't understand but there is a segment of the data that is

144:55just not explainable at this point and from my experience you know again not 100 not binary right but on the scale you know that's the direction that I've continued to move in based off what I've seen and I haven't had any reason to go the other way do you bounce around possibilities in your head of whether or not this thing is interdimensional from another planet yeah yeah you know the dimensional thing is interesting in a lot of different ways we obviously you know obviously but um you know we don't necessarily evolve to see reality right we evolve to survive in our environments we talked about before and our interaction with you know this 3D space-time or 40 I should say may not be the complete picture you know we call things other dimensions or X Y or Z but um you know what does that really mean does that mean that Consciousness that's

145:54Bound in an electromagnetic you know pattern right is that is that higher Dimension or is that you know a life form occurring in three-dimensional space um I don't know the answer that right it's kind of a nuanced discussion and I think that at the end of the day we don't really fully understand our universe well enough to fit it into one of the buckets that we've already defined you know I think there's undefined buckets that could be a participant in this conversation not that I say to know where they are right but I'm just assuming that there's unknowns you know in the makeup of our universe whether it's the 3D you know 4D space time or whether it's something Beyond space-time um and I I just I don't know what those unknowns are where they could live there's your classic you know vision of Time Travelers or people kind of

146:36stepping outside of our space time into you know another land there's also another quote-unquote you know Dimension if we think about you know Quantum the quantum regime and you know wave functions and you know one interpretation uh has those wave functions uh not collapsing all right and so then there's multiple realities of all possibilities happening at once so there's all lots of different definitions of of multi-dimensional and I think we're just still scraping the surface as it is and we're going to learn more about where things could come from in the future well I certainly hope so one of the things that gives me hope is the fact that this is discussed openly now as opposed to when I was younger when I was a kid if you talked about UFOs you were kind of a fool you were a silly person that was you know you were you're you

147:22know it's like talking about elves or you know leprechauns or something it was dumb like why why are you concerning yourself with UFOs those are all silly Stories the only one that was really compelling was the Roswell story because the Roswell story was actually reported in the newspaper that they've recovered or crashed UFO and then you know they actually flew it to uh I think it was Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in two separate Jets they flew the wreckage as to in case one of them goes down they still have some of the wreckage in one of the one of the Jets which was amazing at the time you know but you know then the next day they said it was a balloon it was a mistake and who knows what that was it was I mean I don't know how much of you looked into that story uh I read Corso's book yeah um you know so I've got that perspective of course

148:11kind of read the the mainstream interpretation of it but what was Corso's perspective on it what did he think um well he he kind of broke down this whole this whole you know he he told the the UFO story as much as you could tell it I'm not necessarily vouching for any of it but he really goes into you know details like you just described around moving things around and technologies that could have been you know observed things of that nature um again you know stuff almost like Bob Lazar where you know it's highlighting Technologies and describing it one way that we now recognize you know is things like fiber optics and things of that nature um so you know I don't know where the truth lays but um again it's all being clouded by this classification system right like the full story is still classified what happens when you have information Gap

148:57like that people just fill it in um you know recently there was you know a communication about how um the one of the I think it was the aviation intelligence service of um gosh was it Navy I forget but they released a patch with a UFO on it like a straight up yeah I saw that and they took it down then they took it down like a week later did they yeah they took it down they took it down and said it was an accident what I'm gonna be an accident yeah yeah that's crazy there's a design yeah how was a design an accident it's like a federal website like you don't just actually post like the wrong GIF on a website like that like it I thought it was pretty cool Jeremy actually made t-shirts out of it yeah and then but then you know kind of some of the talk was oh everyone got too excited about that and you made the assumption that

149:42there's UFOs and they're doing it there and it's like well one of course that's the assumption that was made but two that's what happens when you just hide information right like don't chastise us for not like for filling in the gaps right like that's not our fault uh yeah I think there's a real fear of admitting that there's something that we can't control that's technologically Superior to us that can visit and you know we the if I was running the country I would like to have the ability to say that we're in control of everything that there's not some super intelligent beings that we don't understand at all that are using technology that's Indescribable and they're visiting us all the time and some of them we can't even see we don't even detect them until we lock onto them with Superior radar I mean that alone I mean that that puts

150:35you in a position of like well you're not the boss they're the boss you're you know and I mean think that's that's what I would be worried about if I was going to release that information if I was in a position of power if I was uh an admiral or general a president I would be like don't tell them they're just gonna freak out I feel like our society is more adaptable and flexible now just with the tools we have and the way we can communicate you know and the way we can you know break down problems and share them digitally I think now it'd be easier to integrate problems like that because it's easier for people to do their own homework and integrate it whereas you know 50s and 60s everyone's just circled up on the TV and just getting pumped with whatever information goes out right yeah that's true that's true is it that there's there's a

151:26general accepting of access to information that just wasn't the case before the internet yeah and so yeah I think we are more adaptable you know Society now for better or worse you know we we have ability to find our own tribes right and to find Comfort uh with others that have the same ideas of us whereas you know in the past you were on your own Island in a sense and so it's hard to cultivate those ideas well Ryan thanks for doing this man thanks for talking about this openly and thanks for coming in here and discussing it was really fascinating and uh I hope we get to do this again someday maybe there'll be some new information that comes out and some new Revelations and I think we will have some new information to talk about next time do you know something tell me now got me right now would you maybe tell me off the air I won't tell anybody I

152:19I can't give you a secret about that it's two it's too important uh but uh it's really fascinating stuff man and I mean I don't know what to think of it sometimes I think sometimes I think about it too much you know um one of the things that I got out of uh talking to uh Commander David fraver was that that I mean I'm just guessing but that instance of the seeing that thing and watching that thing exhibit capabilities beyond our imagination that's got to stay with you every day like that no matter what you do whether whatever what's on Netflix I don't know but there's [ __ ] aliens out there you know I mean whatever you think is important that has got to be in your Consciousness like right there next to you all the time because he's experienced something personally that very very few human beings will ever be able to comprehend

153:19what it feels like to watch and to know that that's out there and to know that all of the boundaries that we think of in terms of just propulsion Systems Technology and whether or not we are actually in contact on a regular basis with something from somewhere else imagine having that confidence that knowledge you know why Dave's store is incredible wow to see the Tic Tac like that and hear him tell it yeah and the thing that was under the water that the Tic Tac was interacting with that's that's fascinating as well that there might have been some sort of a Mothership or something below the surface of the water because of the way the water was reacting that I mean the the transmedium aspect of this is really fascinating to me because it makes so much sense that if they could fly through space and they could just if they have this Ability

154:16Beyond our imagination or or you know maybe in tune with our imagination about propulsion systems and the ability to just move around instantaneously why wouldn't they just go in the water and if they could do that why would the water be so complicated for them if space isn't complicated yeah the difference between space and our atmosphere you know it's quite the energy or thickness difference right and so that's why things heat up when they come back from space and really it's the same problem right if you can just do that with without that happening uh transition seamlessly from space to air then it should be the same principles essentially go from air to water especially if they're doing it with some method that's similar to what Bob Lazar described of just completely manipulating space and time around them you'd think if you saw that there'd be

155:01some interesting detection methods you could do or or um you know like maybe like a red shift you know if you were to beam light at it and then record some of it coming back you could see perhaps how that light shifted due to the gravitational effects or if you had a sensor on each side and just like we you know bend light around a star or a planet to see things behind it perhaps we could you know observe a bending if we had centers on both sides which sounds you know difficult but when you have say maybe a bunch of fighter jets flying around they're all in a data link pumping information together over a period of time they're going to be in that position just due to random chance in a sense so it's about collecting data over time versus like getting it perfectly has there ever been any discussion of devising some sort of uh a plane or some

155:47sort of a jet or something that just goes out to try to collect data on these things yeah you know the I mean the the area is not um totally closed off like you could take an aircraft over there or a ship over there uh but that's also why we don't test equipment out there because it's just International Water right so that's why it's like hey why would we be testing our own equipment here because anyone can take a boat over here and look up and uh start sniffing around um so yeah I don't know how to answer that question further well listen the problem with this is there's I always love to come to a conclusion oh well that's this yeah and that's that now we know the end yeah there's no the end here you know you're right we haven't finished the store yet but you know just to kind of give you from some of my perspective I you know this conversation is still

156:37ongoing I think that more resources and more energy and more people are getting involved I see us moving this conversation forward both um technologically I think that we're going to be able to better understand not only where the objects are and how they kind of relate to each other and the locations and some things about that but I think we'll better understand repulsion I think we'll better understand um some of the data that has been collected in the recent past so that we can move the conversation forward technologically as a society as a people and study this from all the different societal angles that it's going to need for us to fully integrate it I I think that in the next few years we're going to have the proper institutions both in the government and in the commercial and academic world in order to you know fully integrate this

157:27without needing to build new stuff let not exposing the populace to this information saying okay wait for your institutions to catch up all right I see that landscape being built and I think it's going to be interesting when you know we have the tools within our society to really flesh out what this information means well I for one can't wait to meet our alien overlords let's see I just want to see I mean I think this is all emerging and it's it's really fascinating it's one I think about it too much obviously look at this place I got a UFO on the desk there's one behind me it's a problem I'm working you know I've left my employer to start to engage in this full time so I'm right with you Jill wow so how are you engaging in this full-time more to more to be revealed next time but okay like I said there's there's a landscape spinning up and you

158:17know if that I think this fall and this next winter I think we'll have some more open conversation about what that short-term future is going to look like well come on back and let us know please be my pleasure Joe thank you very much I really appreciate it great conversation [Music] [Applause] foreign